Manitoba Hansard — 23 March 1981 (Sitting 43A, 31st Legislature, 5th Session)

31-5-43a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Fifth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 30 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXIX No. 43A - 2:00p.m., MONDAY, 23 MARCH, 1981 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V Thirty - First Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, A. R. (Pete) ANDERSON,Bob BANMAN, Hon. Robert (Bob) BARROW, Tom BLAKE, David BOSTROM, Harvey BOYCE, J. R. (Bud) BROWN, Arnold CHERNIACK, Q.C., Saul CORRIN, Brian COSENS, Hon. Keith A. COWAN, Jay CRAIK, Hon. Donald W. DESJARDINS, Laurent L. DOERN, Russell DOMINO, Len DOWNEY, Hon. Jim DRIEDGER, Albert EINARSON, Henry J. ENNS, Hon. Harry J. EV ANS, Leonard S. FERGUSON, James R. FILMON, Hon. Gary FOX, Peter GALBRAITH, Jim GOURLAY,Ho n. Doug GRAHAM, Hon. Harry E.

GREEN, Q.C., Sidney HANUSCHAK, Ben HYDE, Lloyd G. JENKINS, William JOHNSTON, Hon. J. Frank JORGENSON, Hon. Warner H. KOVNATS, Abe LYON, Hon. Sterling R. MacMASTER,Hon. Ken MALINOWSKI, Donald McBRYDE, Ronald McGILL, Hon. Edward McGREGOR, Morris McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., Hon. Gerald W. J. MILLER, Saul A. MINAKER, Hon. George ORCHARD, Hon. Donald PARASIUK, Wilson PAWLEY, Q.C., Howard PRICE, Hon. Norma RANSOM, Hon. Brian SCHROEDER, Vie SHERMAN, Hon. L. R. (Bud) STEEN, Warren URUSKI, Billie USKIW, Samuel WALDING, D. James WESTBURV, June WILSON, Robert G. Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield La Verendrye Flin Flon Minnedosa Rupertsland Winnipeg Centre Rhineland St. Johns Wellington Gimli Churchill Riel St. Boniface Elmwood St. Matthews Arthur Emerson Rock Lake Lakeside Brandon East Gladstone River Heights Kildonan Dauphin Swan River Birtle-Russell lnkster Burrows Portage la Prairie Logan Sturgeon Creek Morris Radisson Charleswood Thompson Point Douglas The Pas Brandon West Vir den Roblin Os borne Seven Oaks St. James Pembina Transcona Selkirk Assiniboia Souris-Killarney Rossmere Fort Garry Crescentwood St. George Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Fort Rouge Wolseley Party NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP Prog. PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC PC Prog. Prog. PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP NDP Lib lnd

LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 23 March, 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (B irtle Russell): Pres enting Petitions ... Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIA L COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. LEN DOMINO: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. MR.

CLERK (Jack Reeves): Your Committee met on Tuesday, March 17 th and Friday, March 20th, 19 81, to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System. Your Committee received all information desired by any member from Mr. Gordon W. Holland, General Manager, Mr. Jot:n Bulman, Chairman, and members of the staff of Manitoba Telephone System with respect to all matters pertaining to the Annual Report and the business of the Manitoba Telephone System. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all members of the Committee to seek any information desired.

Your Committee examined the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System for the fiscal year ending March 31, 19 80, and adopted the same as presented. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Matthews, MR. DOMINO: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerson that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINI STERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister without Portfolio. HON. ED WARD McGILL (Brand on-W est): Mr .

Speaker, I have a brief statement to make to the House with respect to the 19 81 Royal Manitob a Winter Fair which begins next week in Brandon. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Has the Honourable Minister copies? MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, there have been copies of the arrangements, which ha ve been made, circul ated to members.

This annual visit of members of the Legislature to the Royal in Brandon goes back many years and I know that members will be pleased that this year's Board of Di rectors have again extended an invitation and plans have been made to adjourn the House on Wednesday, April 1s t, in order that as many members as possible will be able to attend this outstanding agricultural showcase. I know that in the past there has been a good attendance at these annual visits and members who have not been there will find that the show is not onl y informativ e but highly entert aining and interesting. So, Mr.

Speaker, I extend, on behalf of the Board of Directors of the Royal, the invitation to members to attend on April 1s t and they will note that the details have been circulated to them. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nou rable Mem ber for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I just want to express similar sentiments as have been expressed by the Minister without Portfolio and I would certainly hope, as he does, and as members of the exhibition do, that every member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba will certainly make an effort to attend one of the finest fairs of its kind anywhere in North America, maybe anywhere in the world. It's a first class show, one is never disappointed by the Royal Winter Fair and I hope to see many of my colleagues out on that occasi on. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MR.

SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. GARY FILMON (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might have leave of the House to make a statement of a non-political nature. Mr. Spea ker, I'm sure that all members, and indeed all Manitobans will join with me in extending heartiest congratulations to Karen Falliscorrect and her rink from the Winnipeg Winter Club who, this past weekend, were victorious in the Canadian Junior Women's Curling championship. The rink consists of Karen Fallis, Karen Tresoor, Caroline Hunter and Lynne Fallis. This is, as you are well aware, Mr.

Speaker, the third major national title for Manitoba this year in curlin g , and I'm sure that this is testimony to the excellent standard of curling which prevails throughout our province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GU ESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we pr oceed with Oral Ques tions, I should like to introdu ce to the honourable members 19 visitors from the Gr ace General Hospital under the direction of Miss Carmen Aziz. This hospital is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. On behalf of all the honour able members, we welcome you here this afternoon. 1961

Monday, 23 March, 1981 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour.

In view of the fact that the Minister of Labour's Department, Health and Safety, issued an order requesting that an area affected by a spill of fluid at CKY T.V. be evacuated insofar as the employees were concerned, and that order apparently was not acted upon because of some other counter-order subsequently delivered, can the Minister advise why the subsequent order was not delivered in writing as the first order, which indeed had required the evacuation of the area affected? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, it's my understanding an order was issued and that the particular area in question was evacuated. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, as the order indicates that all areas where the odor exists, are to be evacuated, is the Minister advising the House that all areas. in which the odor exists, have been evacuated and remain evacuated during the continuation of the odor? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, my people tell me that was a general order and the specific area they were concerned about was specifically evacuated. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further to the Minister: Is the Minister then in a position to assure this House that there is no health hazard insofar as the area is concerned at CKY T.V., that indeed all the necessary evacuation has taken place as according to Order No. 1, which was issued from his department, No. 810 3-18, that that order has been fully complied with? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I spelled out that my department advised me that the particular area of concern was roped off and people were asked to keep out of that particular area. The word "evacuation" was maybe improperly used in this incident. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, then in that case, is the Minister confirming to the House that the written order, which was first issued indeed has been rescinded or replaced by a verbal understanding that was arrived at subsequent to the issuance of the written order, which spelled out all areas affected by the odor ought to be evacuated. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. The department has informed me that they'r e satisfied that the particular area in question was roped off and people i<:ept out of that area. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister is, would he then look at the order which was issued by his department? lt appears that the Minister is not familiar with that order. The order 1962 does not refer to any area being roped off; it refers to an area, which is affected by the odor itself. Then to the Mini ster, has he examined the order personally, is he satisfied that the order which was issued in writing by his department has been complied with, or is he simply relating to what has been a verbal understanding in place of the written order? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, I am satisfied that appropria te action was taken by my department in this incident. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Education. Can the Minister of Education advise the House whether he has received representation from the Manitoba Associat ion of School Trustees with respect to the deterioration of the public school syst em, by vir tue of the mone ys now being forwarded to private schools in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Education. HON. KEITH A.

COSENS (Gimli): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that such representations appear to have been made public by MAST, would the Minister of Education see whether in fact there is a problem suggested and would the Minister further consider that there be, within the public school system, that diversity which has caused some people to seek out private schools at their own expense, rather than having the kind of experience that they wish to engage in provided within the public school system? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, we keep a careful monitoring process in touch with all aspects of the system and I can assure the honourable member that we certainly are monitoring that aspect as well. We see nothing disturbing or frightening about the system as it exists today and certainly I cannot reinforce the concern that the honourable member seems to espouse at this time. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, regardless of whether the Minister is concerned with my concern, would he be concerne d with the represe ntation of the Manitoba Association of School Trustees in this area and if there is concern on their part - if he wishes to ignore me - if there is concern on their part, would he actively see whether there was a way in which the parents who have seen fit to pay in part their own educational expenses could be relieved of it by having the diversity that is apparently showing to be a need, provided within the public school system? MR. CO SENS: Mr.

Sp eaker, I meet with the Manitoba Association of School Trustees Executive annually, to consider the resolutions that they have passed at their convention. I'll be doing that again

Monday, 23 March, 1981 this year. I certainly will be discussing with them their concerns in connection with any resolution. At the present time we do have provi sion in Manitoba for people to opt out of our public school system into an alternative system, that seems to be meeting the needs of citizens of this province. I don't see any necessity at this time to consider other alternatives. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW : Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister for Economic Development whether he would confirm that additional information has been supplied to the people proposing to build a helicopter plant in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Stur geon Creek): Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in the House last week that we would be in contact with the lawyer for the company, we were; one of my assistant deputies had meetings with him.

They had discussions as to what the information was that they were referring to, that they didn't have and I believe that information that they were requesting or claimed they didn't have was supplied to them today. There are some of their requests we will not be able to meet, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USK IW: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would have hoped that that was the answer last time but I'm pleased to hear the Minister confirm that things are under way again.

I would also ask the Minister why it was that the government chose not to offer site locations in the Selkirk area where the government owns quite a bit of property when they were requested by the company to locate or expropriate property for them and which the Minister objected to in the Selkirk area. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nonour able Minister for Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the development officers as far back as I believe, close to a year-and a-half ago or more, had discussions of different areas in the province that might be available to that company.

Gimli was the natural thought of where the company would like to go because of the facilities that are presently there, Mr. Speaker. Requests from any companies for the Government of Manitoba to expropriate property and sell it to them or also put in conditions to freeze the cost of the properties around any particular area are not something that we would consider, Mr. Speaker. MR. USK IW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate that the Minister doesn't want to expropriate property for a private company, that's understandable but my question is, why was the Minister not in a position to offer properties that were already owned by the Crown in that particular part of the province? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, as I said and the Member obviously wasn 't listening, I believe our 1963 development officers let them know about all the different areas in the province where there were industrial areas and where the province probably owned the property, but I can say, Mr.

Speaker, that it was the company's decision to consider Gimli, not ours. MR. USK IW: Mr. Speaker, I don't want to quarrel with the Minister with respect to the company's position; if Gimli is the place that they want to go, so be it. It was the Minister that alluded to the fact that the company wanted a Selkirk location and had asked the Min ister to expropriate the property. It's in that light that I ask him those questions. MR. JOHNSTON: If the Member would repeat the question again, the last part of the question, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase. The honour able member didn't have a question. MR.

JOHNSTON: All right. MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nour able Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Education and ask him whether the government is prepared to provide a transitional grant to taxpayers in the River East School Division, Transcona -S pringfield, St. Bon iface, and other divisions that are adversely affected to cushion the impact of the government's new educational support program or foundation program. MR. SPEAKER : The Hono urable Minister of Education MR. CO SENS: Mr.

Sp eaker, the new program envisioned a five mill cushion on eligible expenditures that would take care of problems and situations such as the honourable member has alluded to. However, if school divisions choose, or so determine that they wish to go beyond those eligible expenditures, there is no provision there. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, that's the nub of the matter, namely that the Minister, I ask him whether in view of his strict conditions of the proposed grant and a one-year cap or limitation, I ask the Minister whether he's prepared to do anything more than throw out a one-year election gimmick? MR.

COSENS: This is no one-year gimmick, this is a three-year plan, the first time that we've had that type of plan in this province that guarantees a certain amount of revenue to each school division in this province. We've never had that before, sir, it's far from a one-year gimmick. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I apologize. It's a three year gimmick. I'd like to ask the Minister, has he formally conv eyed this information to the divisions which are adversely affected by the government's program, for example, River East and Transcona-S pringfield? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure these divisions are well informed as to all the aspects of the plan.

Monday, 23 March, 1981 We'v e held seminars around the province where school board officials have been present; I'm sure that they recognize and realize all aspects of the program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Acting Deputy First Mi nister, or the Acting Minister of Energy, whoever is speaking for the First Minister and his Deputy today.

In view of the Minister of Energy's commitment on March 17 th in this House to the effect that any transaction with regard to power export will be self-sustaining, stand on its own, pay for itself and produce a return for the people of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, my question is, has the Province of Alberta comm itted to a price for Manitoba power above its domestic alternatives to guarantee the ret urn which the Min ister has committed to this House and the people of Manitoa? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Acting Minister of Energy. HON. BR IAN RANSOM (Souris-Killar ney): Mr.

Speaker, I would be happy to take that question as notice for the Minister of Energy. I might point out to the House that the Minister of Energy and the First Minister are attending the funeral of the father of the Minister of Energy today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RON McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Resources. I believe the Minister is aware of efforts by The Pas Chamber of Com merce to bring together various individuals and groups to discuss, explore, and hopefully reach understanding on the use of the Saskeram area near The Pas.

Has the Minister or his staff been informed of this? Will they be participating and does the Minister believe this is a good approach to look at the land uses of that area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I can report through you to the House and specifically to the Member for The Pas, that we had last week a good and productive meeting with the members of the association that he referred to.

Members met with myself, the Premier, and the Minis ter of Agriculture, and we have indicated to this group that it will be our intention to in a more formal manner set up the mechanism by way of an Advisory Board and perhaps also establish a greater governmental presence by means of a Marsh Manager or Wildlife Manager for that area, who will be advised by a group of local people reflecting the various land use demands of that area. lt would be my hope that the kind of local participation in the future wildli fe management planning of that area will help alleviate some of the difficulties, some of the misunderstandings that have arisen in the area of the Saskeram over the past number of years.

MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Sp eaker, I wonder if the Minister is concerned that one of the main actors in 1964 the use of the Saskeram area, namely Ducks Unlimi ted, has refused to take

part in these discussions being arranged by the Ch amber of Com merce at The Pas; I believe they have refused to do this because they think that the government will give them what they want, so they don't need to participate in discussions with local people. I wonder if the Minister will use his influence as Minister, because he does have authority over giving control of that area to Ducks Unlimited, to get Ducks Unlimited to take part with the local people in the discussions of the uses of that area. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I would, of course, prefer to refer to Ducks Unlimited, not in the manner that the Honourable Member of the The Pas do es as one of the actors, but as a major contributor to the preservation of a very desirable wildlife resource namely migratory game birds in the general area and have over the past 20 years by agreement worked very successfully with the different administrations, I might add, Mr . Speaker, dating back to 19 63, I believe when the origin al agreement with Ducks Unlimited was signed.

The question of whether or not that organization and the role that it plays at meetings called from time to time - I understand in this case it was the Chamb er of Com merce that called a particular meeting - is of course up to them to participate to the extent or to the degree they feel necessary.

Wh at I am making reference to is a more formal ized meaningful role for the very different interests that are represented in that area, the different land use opportunities that are presented in an area like Saskeram, to be appr opriately represented on a Advisory Comm ittee that can give to government future direction as to the land use and the applications that different organizations should have with respect to access to the land, a kind of land dedication from time to time, including the dedication to an organi zation lik e Ducks Unlimited over a period of years which would have hope fully enabled th at organi zation to, in a substantial way, contribute with their mo neys, mone ys that I don't have to col lect from the taxpayers of Manitoba, for the preservation of the wildlife species in that area.

MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to get some clarification of the Minister's answers if I could. I think that the efforts of the Chamber of Comme rce are good efforts to try and bring together the various interested parties in the use of that area, and I am not sure whether the Minister is saying he doesn't feel that's a worthwhile effort; whether there should be another mechanism to do that.

Secondly, I am not sure whether the Minister would then use his good offices to encourage Ducks Unlimited to take part with local people in those discussions or whether he would just let Ducks Unlimited do whatever they wish, even though they are contr ollin g that land with permission of this government. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is well aware there has been, and this happens from time to time, particularly this past summer or last summer's drought condition, which called for the draw down of waters on the Saskeram. Subsequent

Monday, 23 March, 1981 difficulties with fish kill in the past months in that area has created a situation where I really believe it's in the best interests of all parties to draw back, if you like, a little bit instead of attempting to solve all these problems at open forum pu blic meetings. Obviously there has been some attempt, and I must say some deliberate attempt, made at painting one organization as being the guil ty party or the scapegoat of whatever difficulties there are in the Saskeram areas. I think under those circumstances, Mr. Speaker, I don't have to answer for, nor do I, Ducks Unlimited.

They are quite capable of answering for themselves in this regard. What I am sugges ting to the honourable member, that I intend, thr ough the Department of Natural Resources, to ensure that a proper forum exists for all interested parties to have an opportunity expressed and indeed to influence the management of the general area and that will come through the supervision of the Department of Natural Resources and not any single private organiza tion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a new question. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, a new question on the same subject matter.

My question to the Minister of Resources is, since the Minister wishes to convene some type of mechanism of his own in regards to the use of the Saskeram area, and sinc e Ducks Unlimited has indicated that the people who met with the Minister were in fact kind of radical and therefore they didn't want to be involved in a meeting that they were involved in, I wonder what the Minister intends to do when he sets up this mechanism and Ducks Unlimited realiz es ho w radical this Minister is, whether he will still require them to take

part in this or not? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is making so many very lo ose assu mptions and statements that simply don't correspond with the answers that I just have given him. I didn't indicate in this House that I had met with the party that was ca lling this meeting, presumably the Chamber of Commerce of The Pas. I indicated to him that we had met with representatives of The Pas Farmers Associat ion. To my understanding that was not the association that was ca lling the meeting that the honourable member referred to in susbsequent supplementary questions. Mr.

Speaker, I think I would begin to abuse the privileges and rules of this House if I tried to once again repeat myself for the benefit of the Honourable Member for The Pas. I invite the honourable member to come up to my office on the third floor of the building and he and I can have discussion about the future management of the Saskeram, the kind of willingness, the kind of co-operation that I always look for from honourable members opposite at all times, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nou rable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister responsible for the air ambulance service and I would ask the Minister if he could provide the House with an update status report 1965 as to his go vernment's activit ies in respect to replacing the MU -2 and the pur ch ase of a replacement aircraft for air ambulance in northern Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER : The Hono urable Minister of Transportation. HON. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be more than pleased to do that. We now have an aircraft in Winnipeg which will be available for service very shortly to replace the MU -2.

That aircraft is a Cessna Citation which can provide the kind of flexibility and the kind of service that is needed in the medical evacu ation and the air ambulance role. MR. COWAN: Is the Minister then indicating, Mr. Speaker, that aircraft has been purch ased or is under active lease by the government at this time and will be operational, and if so can he provide some detail as to specifically when that aircraft will be available for emergency tr ans fer cases in Northern Manitoba? MR. ORCHARD: That aircraft is being leased by the government, Mr.

Speaker, and the lease papers are in the process of being finalized. We expect that to be done mid-week and as soon as the lease arrangement is finalized we can put that airc raft in the air, Mr. Speaker. MR. COWAN: Finally, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister if he can indicate if consideration is being given to basing that aircraft outside of Winnipeg in a northern centre, and if he can further give some information as to if consideration is being given by his go vernment to develop a special medical evacuation team to be on hand to work with that aircr aft on emergency evacuations out of Northern Manitoba and other parts of the province. MR. ORCHARD: Not at this time, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nou rable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health concerning an issue that I have pressed the Minister on and ask him whether he can confirm that effective April 1s t, that or thepedic shoes will be included un der Medicare. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that program comes into effect on April 1s t. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, since several hundred parents and people will be affected by that program and should be able to access it and take advantage of it, is the Minister doing anything more than issuing a press release to that effect? MR.

SHERMAN: No, but I can certainly take that under consideration, Mr. Speaker, and see what I can do to promote it and public ize it more widely. I will make several references to it later today or

Monday, 23 March, 1981 tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, when we reach the New Programs content of my Estimates. MR. DOERN: Mr. Sp eaker, we don't want a repetition of $62,000 but we would like to see the information made available to the public. I would like to ask the Minister whether he would also be prepared to attempt to find a person or organization or shoemaker or whatever in Winnipeg to possibly produce these shoes, which I understand are all custom ordered from Toronto and seem to be excessively high priced, namely some of these shoes or boots seem to run into the order of $200 a pair which seems quite excessive.

So I would ask the Min ister whether he wo uld attempt to explore alternatives to shipping these orders to Eastern Canada and try to develop a procedure that could be carried out in Winnipeg or Manitoba. MR. SHERMAN: I would lik e to examine the honourable member's question, Mr. Speaker, and I certainly will and I will check back with him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Memb er for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Health.

In view of the fact that we have been informed that there will be six more professional association bills coming forward before the Legislature, can the Minister indicate which ones of these will be in the health care field or will all six be in the health care field? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: There are a total of six in the health care field that I am aware of, Mr. Speaker. MR.

PARASIUK: A supplementary to the Minister, I am wondering if he could let us know which they are, in that I have been receiving calls from more than six health care organizations or associations indicating that they believe that their bill will be brought forward and I think it would expedite things if the Minister could inform us as to which of the assoc iations' bills will indeed be brought forward at this sitting. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, they include, The Medical Act, which is already on the Order Paper, and The Pharmaceutical Act, and The Respiratory Technologists, The Laboratory Technicians, and two others, Mr. Speaker. I will supply the honourable member with that information tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of the Environment, and I would ask the Minister if he could provide us information as to what involvement his department had in respect to the spill of a hazardous chemical at the CKY T.V. Station last week. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. FILMON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, after rece1vmg a telephone call from the radio station reporting the 1966 spill, our depar tment notified both the Ci ty of Winnipeg and the Work place Health and Safety Branch of the Department of Labour; as well, the Emergency Measures Organization were notified.

Subsequently members of our staff were involved in discussions and in fact in one particular case in an effort to identify the particular substance, because there seemed to be a contradiction between the odor that was being observed and the identification that was provided by the station. The sample was then taken to our Technical Services Lab for testing and throughout the whole procedure our staff were in constant contact with the various people from the other departments involved.

They recommended methods of cleaning up and absorbing the material that was left; they also made recommenda tions about disposal; they informed the City of Winnipeg when they became aware that part of the material had gone down the sewer. So they were involv ed throughout the entire procedure, Mr. Speaker. MR.

COWAN: We thank the ex-Minister of the Environ ment for his comments from his seat, however, as it appears as if the present Minister was resp onsible for co-or di nating the activities in respons e to the spill, can the Min ister of the Environment inform the House as to why it was that several areas in that building were opened and closed and that there seemed to be a number of general complaints from workers and management at the site about a lack of co-ordination of the activities of the different departments which were in fact attempting to deal with that spill?

I have been informed that the management and workers at that particular site felt that their activites which were attempted to be done in a co-operative way, were in fact hindered by the lack of a co ordi nated respons e and conflicting advic e and conflicting orders on the part of the different levels of government As the Minister was responsible or has taken responsibil ity for the co-ordination of the activities, can he now indicate why it was there appears to have been very little co-ordination among the different departments? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR.

FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I think that there was a question of what the particular material was that was being dealt with. In fact, I know that the material was identified as three different substances throughout the period of time, and so out of an abundance of caution, some instructions were made to evacuate, or to keep clear part of the site at the CKY Station. I can tell you that at various times the material involved was identified as firstly, a Dowtherm 209 and secondly, a Dowtherm A, then thirdly a PCB derivative material.

In all cases the identification was partially hampered due to the fact that the material was 15 to 20 years of age and probably had broken down in the course of usage over the period of time. So in all cases, both the Workpla ce Safety and Health officers and our own inspectors were acting out of an abundance of caution and not wanting to take any unnecessary risks with any of the workers who were involved. Perhaps at various times they erred on the side of safety and I'll certainly take responsibility for that, but I assure the member that

Monday, 23 March, 1981 they were acting in good faith in an effort to ensure that nobody was running any risk by being in any of the areas of that building and that's why there may have been some contradiction in the orders that were issued, Mr. Speaker. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, nobody doubts that the people at the site and even the department was ac ting in good faith. Ho wever, can the Minister indicate why it was that the cafeteria at the worksite was closed, then opened, and then closed again?

Can he confirm or can he suggest, or is he trying to suggest that by opening the cafeteria and then closing it again, they were in fact acting, as he says, with an abunda nce of caution? When did that caution fail the group when they opened the cafeteria and found they had to close it again, as happened with several other specific sites at the worksite? MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I'd just like to reassure the member that our department at all times had the interest of the workers and their safety in mind when they were making these decisions, and they were involved with members from other departments, and that perhaps was one of the reasons why too much caution was used at certain periods of time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Government Services, or perhaps it should be to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service in absence of the Minister of Agricultur e, and that is, could the re sponsible Minister advise by what date the move of the Agriculture Department employees will take place, that is the move that has been annou nced of, I believe, the Water Services Board emplo yees from Winnipeg to the City of Brandon? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Government Services. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSO N (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I'm not able to advise my honourable friend precisely the date that move will take place. It will be within a reasonable period of time. MR. EVANS: I presume a reaso nable period of time, Mr. Speaker, is some time this year. Ho wever, I'd like to ask the Honou rable Minister of Go vernment Services a supplementary question, and that is, has the Provincial Government found a suitable location for the offices of those particular employees? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, the department is now in the process of attempting to locate that space. MR.

SPEAKER : The Ho nour able Member for Brandon East with a final supplementary. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise whether the former Co-op Retail Store is one of the premises being considered for a possible location of those offices? MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is one of the spots that is being considered. 1967 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question that has come to my attention, to the Minister of Highways.

I would ask the Minister if he could advise if the Registrar, Mr. Dygala has declined, on two occasions, to meet with the Manitoba League of Physically Handicapped in regard to legislation that I believe is before the House at this particular time? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Highways. MR. ORCHARD: Not that I'm aware of, Mr. Speaker, but no doubt the Member for Ste. Rose will be a little more specific and I'd be able to better answer his inquiry. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I have been informed that the Manitoba League of Physically Handicapped persons have req uested two meetings on two different occasions to meet with Mr . Dygala to discuss legislation that would affect them, and that he has declined to do so, and I would ask the Minister that if the Registrar does not wish to meet with this group, would he be agreeable to meet with them, should they so desire? MR. ORCHARD: I wonder, Mr. Sp eaker, if the Member for Ste. Rose could indicate what particular legislation is the suggested topic of discussion.

I'm at somewhat of a lo ss to know what particular reference the Member for Ste. Rose is making here. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I believe it is legislation that has to do with wheelchairs for the handicapped which have electric motors on them, and which will now come under legislation similar to Mopeds. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of that legislative amendment which would bring wheelchairs in under the guise of a Moped, I don't believe that's part of the legislative package. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period having expired, we will proceed with Orders of the Day.

The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the Ho use resolv e itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Finance; and the Ho nourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Health. CONC URRENT COM MITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HEALTH MR.

CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. When we last left we were starting in Item 5, Line 3, Hospital Program - pass.

Monday, 23 March, 1981 The Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I hope that this comes under Hospital; the Minister may want to reply to it under Medical, and it refers to the transporting of infants, of newborns from one hospital to another. I was asking some questions a year ago about this, the fact that the most critical hours for a newborn baby, those immediately after birth, of course, and in that it's impractical to have all facilit ies at all hospitals, infants have to be transferred immediately after birth if there is a problem.

I understand that an ambulance is being used for this but people in the field say that is inadequate as the ambulance personnel don't have the training or the equipment to deal with these high risk births. lt was suggested to me that a specially trained team with the proper vehicle and equipment could prevent many long term health problems, Mr. Chairperson, for the high risk infants by transporting them safely and quickly to a high risk centre where they can receive proper treatment to eliminate the long term disabilities. This is some thing, you know, Mr.

Chairperson, as the Minister knows, I'm very interested in the TASK force on maternal and child health and I'm not aware that they are at the present time looking at this particular problem. I wonder if the Minister has had any information on this particular need or any feedback or it's perhaps something he wants to refer to the maternal TASK force on maternal and child health. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, this program does come under the Hospital appropriation. it's the High Risk Newborn Transfer and Transport Program that was announced last year, for which there was some several hundred thousand dollars approved in the 1980-81 MHSC budget. The concept is the establi shment of high risk maternity units, facilities and capacities at the Health Sciences Centre and at the St.

Boniface and it would be essentially centered and administered from the Health Sciences Centre and it would involve the use of a specially equipped high risk newborn transport ambulance which would be available for high risk maternity cases in a 50-mile radius of Winnipeg and it's certainly a major objective of the Department and the Commission. lt is not fully in place at the present time.

There have been training programs and recruitment programs pursued in the past year to recruit and train the necessary staff also due to general redeve lopment challenges at the Health Sciences Centre where there has been a major internal reor ganization and there's a massiv e external physical redevelopment program under way.

We have not fou nd the Health Sciences Centre proceeding quite as quickly with the completion and installation of this program as we would have liked but we're pushing it and promoting it as strenuously as we can and would expect it to be fully in place within the next few months. it's part and parcel of the general effort being made by the department and by others in the community and other agencies such as the Social Planning Council to improve our capacity in high risk maternity and improve our performance in infant mortality and paranatal medicine very very substantially.

There have been some dramatic statistical improvements achieved in the last year due in particular to work being done both at the Health Sc iences Centr e and St. Bon iface by perinatologists who are experts in the high risk maternity field. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: Mr. Chairperson, can the Minister tell us anything about the birthing unit at the Victoria General Hospital; how is that working out? There was a report in the paper last September to the effect that some of these mothers and babies could be discharged within 24 hours of delivering.

Has that in fact proved to be the experience or is it in . . . I noticed that the birthing unit was provided through a donation from the Hospital Guild and I wondered if the government is expecting to more along this line; develop more birthing units and how, in fact, the experience is working out there. MR. SHERMAN: I'll have to take that question as notice, Mr. Chairman, and get the information for the honourable member.

I do n't have any cu rrent information on that birthing unit project or concept at Victoria. lt was tem perarily discon tinued as perhaps the honourable member knows and whether it's re-established in full, I can't say; I'll have to get that information. On the concept in general there seem to have been some interesting commentaries and prospectives on it from specialists in various parts of North America, various points in the United States which seems to be a well accepted concept in maternity and child-maternal programming.

Our efforts largely have been concentrated for the last two or three years on improving the safety of high risk mo thers and infants thr ough re enfor cement and expansion of con vent ional maternity facilities and programs but certainly there's no mind set against the birthing room concept on the government's part. MS. WESTBURY: I look forward to receiving that reply, Mr. Cha irperson. Can the Minister tell us whether Grace Hospital is still short of anaesthetists? MR. SHERMAN: They're not short of anaesthetists at the moment, Mr.

Chairman, but the problem of supply of anaesthetists is an ongoing and a continuing one and one that has been addressed by the Standing Comm ittee on Medical Manpower and certainly by my office and the Commission of the specialities in medicine, and certa inly anaesthesiology is one of the four that represents a considerable difficulty for Canadians and citizens of the Un ited Sta tes, in terms of manpower or woman power supply.

We train our anaesthesiologists very well in Manitoba and they are very attractive targets for major medical centres in Eastern Canada and the United States. lt leaves one pondering the question as to whether we don't perhaps train them too well but that's another debate. Nonetheless they're very popular, very popular objectives for recruiters from major medical centres in other parts of the continent, but Grace is all right at the present time. 1968

Monday, 23 March, 1981 MS. WESTBURY: I've been asked to suggest Seven Oaks. Has Seven Oaks got a anaesthetist or an anaesthesiologist, and my information is that it's very hard to find one on a permanent basis, Mr. Chairperson. MR. SHERMAN: I'll try and get that information, Mr. Chairman. Just give me half a minute, Mr. Chairman. I am advised, Mr. Chairman, that we have three full time anaesthetists at Seven Oaks and four general practitioners who have taken the short course, six month course in anaesthesiology who are capable of serving as anaesthetists at Seven Oaks. MS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Chairperson, what's the story on radiologists? Have negotiations been completed with them? MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Chairman, the negotiations between the MMA and the Manitoba Health Services Commission respect ing the radiological

section have not been completed. That comes under the Medical Services line of the Estimates, but nonetheless, that's the situation. Those discussions and negotiations are still ongoing. MS. WESTBURY: Are the negotiations including the costs and the fluctuation in their operating costs because of the costs of silver and that kind of thing? Is that included in the negotiations that are going on? MR. SHERMAN: That's certainly a substantial part of it. The change in the technical component of the radiological function, cost of x-ray film, cost of silver; it's certainly a major part of it, Mr. Chairman. MS.

WESTBURY: Mr. Chairperson, there were reports to the effect that some American citizens are coming up to Manitoba and providing a tiny but lucrative trade for local hospitals and doctors, by using Manitoba Hospitals, and of course we all agree that there's good reason to come and use Manitoba Ho spitals, but do we no t cha rge back to such people? I know at one time the practise was that American citizens were billed for hospital costs, for hospital treatment that they received here. Is that not still the practise? MR. SHERMAN: We checked those reports out at the time, Mr.

Chairman, and could find no substance to them. There are however, hospitals in Winnipeg, and I suppose in other parts of the province, who serve American residents, but they are encouraged to charge the normal per diem rate plus the . . . I am advised, Mr. Chairman, they charge the cost of the service to the patient as opposed to the regular per diem rate. They charge the actual cost to the patient. We haven't been able to identify it on the basis of those reports as a real problem. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I would like to get back to Seven Oaks.

The Minister has said that there are four anaesthetists there and four gener al practitioners who have completed the short course. Frankly, I don't know if the Minister has, but I have received some complaints, and the complaints have 1969 come from some of the people involved with the Seven Oaks operation who are a bit nervous about being that public on it, but I am pretty sure the Minister must have received some feedback on this as well saying that there is some concern that the anaesthetists might not be good enough, and that's a concern that's been expressed to me.

I again, would like the Minister to indicate whether they have been keeping a close review of the situation here to ensure that in fact this isn't the case; that's one. And secondly, this complaint seems to be part of a larger complaint that there seem to be bottlenecks in what I would call our medical manpo wer.

Wh at this bottle neck has done in terms of shorta ges of anaesthetists, shortages of nur ses, especially certain types of nur ses, is prevented Seven Oaks from becoming fully operational; that you have a facility that is not operating near to capacity, and this ironic situation where a ho spital is built after some cut backs, some hold back of the building of the facility; one would have thought that this would have been held back, that this contruction having been held or frozen for a while would have led to a better situation, better planning with respect to the ultimate operation of the hospital.

But this hold back or freeze of a hospital construction took place at a time when there were cut backs in the general level of funding for a hospital and medical care leading to an outflow of some of our nurses, a great number of our nurses actually and leading to an outflow or a shortage of other specialized people involved in the delivery of health care. I'd like to know then, what percentage of Seven Oaks capacity is operational? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, at the present time, Seven Oaks is operating about one-third capacity of the 336 beds for which it's rated or approximately 11 6 operativ e.

I would wish to point out, Mr. Chairman, that nothing was ever frozen or held back in the case of Seven Oaks. Seven Oaks was . . . the piles were into the ground when this government was elected. There certainly was some question as to whether we were going to make the decision to proceed with it or not but construction proceeded while that decision was pending and the delay in construction of Seven Oaks was caused by a strike in the construction industry in the spring and summer and fall of 19 78 which set the construction

schedule back very substantially, but there was no government imposed curtailment on the activity at the construction site. With respect to the supply of pers onn el and material at Seven Oaks, there certainly has been a delay in receipt of some equipment in the Seven Oaks administration and the hospital board would admit that and did admit that last summer, that much of the equipment that they had on order for some time was very slow in coming. Delivery dates were set back repeatedly and so the opportunity for orientation of new staff was necessarily delayed.

So it was a combination of those circumstances and not any action by government. Certainly there has been difficulty in finding the necessary number of nurses but not so great by any means as the Ho nourable Member for Transcona might think, because with a new physical plant like that coming into place, one of the possible difficulties we have faced is that nurses from other hospitals in Winnipeg would be attracted to Seven Oaks and

Monday, 23 March, 1981 indeed that has happened. lt has not reached crises proportions but certainly there has been some drain off by Seven Oaks of nurses in other hospitals. Insofar as nurses and nurse supply generally is concerned, we'r e in no different position than virtually every other province in this country and state, in the United States, today. There is certainly a nursing shortage.

I might point out that at the present time the City of Los Angeles is short 6,000 RNs, and no doubt they're recruiting in Winnipeg and Brandon and Saskatoon and Calgary and every cold weather port you can name in this nation of ours. We're up against that kind of competition all the time but our supply of nurses and our incipient supply of nurses has improved dramatically in the last year as a result of a number of measures that have been taken and our nursing school enrol ments and refresher course enrolments are all overfi lled, all over-subscribed and we think we have the worst of the problem overcome.

As far as anaesthesiologists are concerned, the six-month course is recognized by the College of Physicians and Sur geons and its graduates are licensed by the College of Physicians and Surgeons, and in rural Manitoba, most of our anaesthesiologists have that kind of qualification. There certainly is a strong case that can be made for a course in anaesthesiology that is much shorter than the four year course that our specialists in anaesthesiology take at the Manitoba Medical College.

As I said before, our graduates, post-graduates in anaesthesiology from Manitoba Medical College are extremely well-trained and extremely highly sought after as a result. But there are jurisdictions all over the world and even all over this continent, where two years represents an ackno wledged standard for anaesthesiology and where the six-month course is cer tainly acc eptable, particularly if that anaesthegeologist is working under the direction of a chief anaesthesiologist. That is a specialist who can supervise what is happening in anaesthesia in say, three operating rooms at the same time.

You don't need a specialist necessarily in all three operating rooms, but you can certainly meet the requirements of the standards of care with a supervising anaesthesiologis t and then the technically trained anaesthetists who have had this six-month course. lt won't only be Seven Oaks where we will be using anaesthetists with thos e shor ter training qualifications. I think in fact, Mr. Chairman, that we probably have to be looking at a shorter training qualification in this specialty in general. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: The Minister raised an element there that necessitates a response on my part. The nursing shortage exists in other parts of Nor th America that are experiencing some fairly acute population growth. What we're finding in Manitoba is that we have a nursing shortage at a time when our province is experiencing unprecedented population decline and out-migration. Part of the problem and part of the cause of that out-migration was in fact the government policy from 19 77 to about 19 79; that helped contribute to the out migration.

When we've sat down with nursing organizations, we talked to them in a concerned manner about the nursing shortage, and they say that the major cause was the acute protracted restraint of the government itself in the funding of hospitals, and that led to a psychology of pessi mism, of not feeling wanted by the government, and that more than anything else led to an out-migration of nurses along with a whole bunch of other people from this province. Now I think if I look back on Hansard and the statements made by my colleagues, the Member for St.

Boniface, the Member for Seven Oaks, they were predicting this type of situation to the government. They were saying if you do this type of thing you are going to face these consequences two or three years down the line. One direct graphic consequence of this is a multimillion dollar hospital facility which after a lot of delay is only operating at one-third capacity.

So, I think the go vernment does have to take the respo nsibility and be held accountable for their shortsightedness in this respect; trying to give the impression to the public that there was all this fat in the health spending, which is the major area of government spending; that somehow they would come in and turn all this around. The truth of the matter is that there was very little if any fat, and that by going ahead and trying to sho w their backers that ther e was fat, come whatever, - I was going to say hell and high water, but, Mr.

Chairman, I know I can't say that so I won't - that the progam was cut to the bone, and we now have the cons equence of under-utilized capacity which costs the taxpayers a fair amount of money. That's the point I wanted to raise with respect to Seven Oaks in particular and to the nursing situation in particular. lt makes me wonder why it's not possible for the government to act as a better co ordinator between the hospitals.

We know from a lot of complaints that we receive, and I am sure the Minister receives, that a lot of elective, and in some instances what other people would call emergency surgery, is not being done because of a shortage of beds in other hospitals. I just got a letter here of a person whose father stayed out in emergency for at least a day lying on a stretcher suffering from internal bleeding supposedly.

These are the types of complaints that I get, my colleagues get, and I am pretty sure the Minister must get, and I can't un derstand why it's not possible to provide a better co- ordinating role to possibly put some extended care patients into Seven Oaks Hospital on an interim basis, thus freeing up some acute care beds in other hospitals, or why it wouldn't be possible to possibly allocate staff on a rotating basis into Seven Oaks to make better use of its facilities. lt just seems that we have these bottlenecks, and bottlenecks in my es timation are the logi cal consequence of acute protracted restraint, that we can't seem to get ou rselves out of at present, and it might take three or four years to do so, but in the interim a lot of people suffer, and that's why I think the go ver nment, thr ough the Manitoba Health Services Commission, has to take a more aggressive role in ensuring co-operation between the hospitals.

MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, we never had any indication from the nursing profession or from the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses that the shortage of nurses, which crystalized in Canada in 19 79 and 19 80, 19 80 really, was related in any way 1970

Monday, 23 March, 1981 to the budge t of the Manitoba Health Services Commission or the Manitoba Government in the health field, other than that certainly nurses were beginning to feel themselves at a disadvantage in terms of wage levels and income levels, and they had been held in constraint under AIB for a lengthy period of time, then they had had a catch-up coming out of AIB but then had subsequently got into a two year contract which contained them while other fields were moving ahead in terms of income.

Apart from that, which was an understandable grievance which all of us feel from time to time in our respective vocations, we had no indication from MARN, in fact quite the opposite, that the nursing shor tage was due to the budget of the government in the health field. In fact, we worked very hard with education authorities including probably the best-known expert in nursing and nursing training in Manitoba, Dr. Helen Glass; Dr. Ralph Campbell, the President of the University of Manitoba; Dr.

Arnold Naimark, Dean of the Medical College, soon to be the President of the University of Manitoba; and others on this very subject. If the Member for Transcona has a solution to the cyclical supply in the field of nursing, there are a gr eat many people who would like to hear from him. Those experts advised me and my officials that this was some thing that no one had ever been able to resolve in the nursing field.

The problem is if you get a shortage, you get school counsellors, guidance counsellors and others encouraging young women, and unfortunately not enough young men, in high schools to seek nursing as a career, and as soon as a surplus builds up, which is what happened in 19 76, they stop all such counselling; in fact not only stop it they reverse it and they advise young people not to go into nursing as a career and this has gone on cyclically for decades in the profess ion.

We now have a Standing Commi ttee on Nursing Manpower being set up which is being asked, among other things, to deal with that rather unique condition in the nursing profession. On the subject of Seven Oaks, I can only add, Mr. Chairman, that Seven Oaks has moved into low gear and is moving into high gear no more slowly than any other major hospital in any other major city. All new major metropolitan hospitals take anywhere from two to three years to phase into full operation after completion of construction, and Seven Oaks is certai nly no t behind in terms of that kind of schedule. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, on the question of nurses, this is another issue that I don't expect the Minister to agree with the mistakes that he and the government has made. I think we had an example of that last week, and I don't think that all of sudden the Minister will admit, but there is no doubt, and that was made quite clear at the time by a public statement by MARN and when we looked at the budget, that the government would have problems with the nurses. 11 is definitely certainly not all the fault of the government, there is no doubt about that either.

But the question of pay was one thing, and then there was this restraint, that they weren't going to pay the nurses any more. At the time there was a surplus, and you were told in no 1971 uncertain terms, fine, that a day would come, you were told by MARN also the day would come, fine, everybody was afraid of the time because there was a surplus and the supply and demand would change and you would have to pay through the nose and that's exactly what happened.

One of the big things, there is no doubt that the pay is an important thing, because a few years back we had a shortage also, and ther e'll be more shortages; we were going through the same thing of setting up commit tees and so on and then all of a sudden there were negotiations, there was a big increase and then all of a sudden things settled down. That's probably the most important thing, but it is not the only factor, Mr. Chairman, and the fact was that the pay increase they felt they should have had wasn't forthc oming.

They were practically told to go somewhere else; the government was very, very tough in those days, it didn't need people. But then the main thing, and I think this is what the Member for Transcona is talking about, it is the working conditions. MARN said that from Day One. I remember a meeting with them and some of the statements that were made in 19 78, they figured that you're going to lose the nurses, they were asked to do things - first of all, there was a shortage, there never should have been a surplus.

Because of the tight budget in the hospitals, you were cutting down on nur ses in certain areas, there was enough to fill, we could have hired all the nurses, there weren't that many of a surplus. Then they started getting a load that wasn't fair; the same as they're having right now in some personal care homes and still in certain hospitals. The work ing conditions are very very important to people. They feel that it's a profession and the Mi nister, rightly so, stands up and takes notice if the medical profession makes statement like this, and it is the same thing with the nurse.

There is no doubt that then the Minister started working with the University, nobody is denying that, but it was a little late then and that's only correcting one part of it. There's the wages, there's the education, and th ere's recru iting, but there's also working conditions, and it's very important to anybody - Politicians, doctors, nurses, anybody - and the working conditions were not that good - they're a little better now - and some of it was because of restraint, it's bound to be. You can't have restraint like that without that being a factor. Mr.

Chairman, maybe this is the right time to ask the Min ister what kind of an increase in the percentage increase the hospital will have in the budget for this year? Has that decision been made yet? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, and I'm glad the honourable member asked that question, Mr. Chairman, because I don't think I've announced it. it's 13 .5 percent, Mr. Chairman. MR. DESJARDINS: That's the budg et of the hospital. MR. SHERMAN: And the personal care homes. Hospitals and personal care homes, 13 .5 percent. MR.

DESJARDINS: No w is that 13 for each individual institution or is that a global thing which may be varying from rural to urban areas and from

Monday, 23 March, 1981 larger hospitals to smaller hospitals, could we have some word on that please? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, you can have some word on it. No, it is not the ironclad figure for every facility. it's the global figure in our operating budgets for hospitals and personal care homes this coming fiscal year. There will be variations depending on the size and the patient load and the responsibili ties of individual facilities. MR.

DESJARDINS: Would the Minister then be candid enough to admit then that maybe we had a point when were criticizing the Minister for an increase of 2.2 with no formula at all, and all of a sudden, following a bigger increase last year and an increase of 13 percent from two years ago or three years ago, from 2.2 to 13 percent where the inflation was going in the same area, and if anything, if there is any reason if you look at the economic situation there should be more reason for restraint. So that

part certainy hasn't changed. What is the explanation of that? Why go from 2.2 and feeling that this was quite right, and now you're talking about 13 percent? I'm not criticizing the Minister for the increase of 13 percent, I want him to know that, but I mean, whenever we felt that it was too low, we were saying that we're alarmists or trying to create problems, and now, 13 percent, I'd like to have some word of explanation on that. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'll certainly try. lt wasn't 2.2, it was 2.9 and it wound up at 4.7, I believe, or 6.4. But it was announced at 2.9 to begin with, that's correct.

I think it wound up at 6.4 that year. Nonetheless, the honourable member's question is still valid. The answer lies on about three different planes.

One is, we believed, in our last years in Opposition and our first months in government, that expectations were unlimited in Manitoba, not only in the health com munity but in society, throughout society and throughout the economy generally. lt was obvious that more difficult times were coming; it was obvious that there were going to have to be extreme efforts made to produce the kinds of revenues that were going to be necessary to maintain the programs that were in place, and to meet outgoing spending commitments through the 1980s, and we felt it was psycholo gically important to put a break on expectations.

We also felt it was necessary at that time to put the system, including the government, through a very rigid budget examination and evaluation exercise, through a very rigid accountabil ity exercise, to look and see where there might be expenditures that could be contained, if not curtailed. In fact, as I said at the time, and I have never deviated from it because hospital administrators and board members have repeated it to me, it was a healthy exercise to go throug h, Mr. Chairman, for a year. lt was a healthy and necessary exercise to go through for a year.

The other part of the answer lies in the conditions then as opposed to the conditions now. At that point in time we were either still in AIB or barely coming out of AIB and the province was not faced with the kinds of wage demands and wage responsibilities that we have to meet today and have moved to meet in the last year with CUPE in respect to the support and service workers in the health facilities; with MONA, in respect to the nursing profess ion; and indeed with the medical profess ion, and the situation with the medical profession isn't finished yet.

I might say that in looking at the increase in the hospital's budget for this coming year, a substantial portion of that, many millions of that, goes to meet the new CUPE service workers contract and the new MONA contract for the nurses. I know that the Honourable Member for St.

Bon iface knows that 70 percent of the costs of operating a hospital is salary, and when you have to meet the wage requirements that we felt we had to meet, and you're looking at tens of millio ns of doll ars to meet them, it contributes to a fairly substantial necessary increase in the budget and that, in a large part, explains the 13 .5 percent. MR. DESJARDINS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for now throwing my speeches back at me.

This is what I was telling him then, exactly the same thing and I also use 70 percent of wages and I'v e talked about the increase of the supplies and the devaluation of the dollar and the increase in food and so on. That situation was there; now the Minister said it was a healthy thing. I think he's saying the only healthy thing, if anything, was that it was a warning. lt was chastising these people; taking it for granted without really knowing that they weren't fair, that they were asking for too much, and nearly flushed the baby down the drain with the bath water when you did that.

That's one of the things that we were talking about a while ago why you had trouble with nurses. Now, Mr. Chairman, the 2.2, if that had been arrived at, I remember that we asked for the formula and the Minister said well, to our big disappointment because he always promised that when the time comes he would tell us the famous formula and the situation was that they had asked I think it was 13 percent and the Minister said we have a choice between 0.13, we decided on 2.2 and that was the formula. And the Minister said 2.9, right, but it was 2.2, because there was some thing, what is the . . .

I haven't got the name; the money that they put in that they keep, a certain amount of money to keep to buy new equipment, so it came to 2.2, actually. We told the Minister then it won't be 2.2, there is no way.

The Minister was making a lot of noise though saying that it will be 2.2 and we said no, there is no way that you can keep these things open, even with all the restraint in the world, with all the threats in the world, with everything else and then the Minister now is saying, "well it wasn't that", but in those days he was saying yes, we stuck with that and he played games and we told him he played games with the basics. So you can say 2.2 and if you just say the basic will be raised at something else, but even then.

Is the Minister saying now that the economic conditions of the world, in Canada and especially in Manitoba has improved since then, that we're in a better position to pay that? I think they paid lip service, the big smile, and when Reagan talks about his policies and the government was going to do it here and 13 percent for 2.2 doesn't make such sense. Mr. Chairman, you can teach people a lesson when you know that something is wrong but it's dangerous 1972

Monday, 23 March, 1981 to teach people a lesson and then you hurt the standard of care and that's exactly what happened. lt was such a high standard that, fine, we' re fortunate, it is still pretty good, but it was in danger of going down and it was going down; there's no doubt about it at all. And this thing now, you know, the Minister said 2.2 or 2.9 or 4, whatever it is, there was no basic for that at all. The Government took over in October and the same month there was an interview and the Minister of Health said, "the first thing I have to do, I have to cut down ".

I'm sure and he'll be the first one to admit that he wasn't familiar with his department, but he made the statement and I can find that statement because it shocked me when I saw that. He said, "the Minister of Finance instructed me that I've got to knock off $10 million from this budget," and that was it, that was it. You kno w, ... of cou rse, there were all kinds of scandals in this department like everyt hing else under the former government. We were throwing money at problems, but that later on the Minister was honest enough and fair enough to say that hadn't been the case in this department.

My point is, I'm not chastising the Minister now but you know in those days we weren't reasonable when we were doing that and we advised the Minister that there would be some concern and this is what's happening no w because we'r e no t in a better position of restraint that we're forced to do now. Some of the problems we had, the Minister said there were wages but there were some of the contracts and the people were afraid.

You remember when the restraint came in and a bunch of civil servants were fired and the people were afraid of their jobs and there was no pressure at the time; maybe they won that one but I'm saying it was a shallow victory. lt was a battle, it wasn't a war and you'r e paying for it now because now the people have you and you're going to have a hard time sett ling the strikes with the do ctor s and with everybody else. If they would have had an increase at those times and if the nurses would have had an increase, all right, if you didn't want to re-open contracts and the ceiling.

There was no ceiling when you took office, that was gone, the ceiling, so some of these contracts were, I don't know. Anyway, as I say that's a no win thing. I don't expect the Minister to say, yes, we were right but nevertheless I'll say that I'm very pleased, I think tha t we gave this department a good ride. We worked very thoroughly and I think we'd like to take a little bit of the credit for some of the improvements in this and I won't say to the Mi nister that you 're th ro wing mone y at problems; I think that this was due. No w, Mr. Chai rman, I'd like to have some information on Seven Oaks.

The intent and the plan was that the Minister said, I think there's one-third of the total bedss that will be some day in operation; there's one-third now operat ing now. Now the intent was when that was opened, when all the beds were on stream that there would be certain beds closed at the Health Sciences Centre when they were re building in their program.

I don't imagine that is the case now if there's only one- third in operation but is that still the intent when and if Seven Oaks operates fully; will there be a closing of some of these acute beds or shor t-stay beds at the Health Sciences Centre to permit them to go ahead with their 1973 program , and how many will that be? Is that changed, is that varied?

In other words, the intent, the policy of the then government was not to create more of these beds but to replace those that were not working too well and of course I'm talking not of those beds and I'm not talking about the number that are operating or were opera ting, I'm talking about those that when everything is open, not when wings are closed; now it the policy changed since then? MR. SHERMAN: No Mr. Chairman, that's still the policy.

Some of them are closed but then some of them have been re-opened in a special personal care unit at the Health Sc iences Centre, a 63-bed personal care unit, but those patients will be moved into new personal care beds as they come on stream this summer. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Cha irman, what is the jurisdiction now in hospitals and I'll come right to the point? The Board of the Seven Oaks Hospital in a very close vote decided that they were going ahead for abortion.

Is that left strictly to the hospital; does that have to be approved, that service, all services in every hospital have to be approved by the Manitoba Health Services Commission who no doubt check with the Mi nister? What is the score? Is the Minister have anything to say on that? Is he satisfied with that service being performed there? Does he feel that there should be more or less of it and is it all in the hands of just the board of that hospital or any other hospital or has the Comm ission anything to say about that? MR. SHE RMAN: Well, Mr .

Chairman, the designation of a hospital authorized to perform therapeutic abortions comes from the Minister under the Crimina l Code; as the honourable member knows, a hospital board can make the decision on the advice of its medical staff and the position taken by its board that it feels it is necessary to have a capacity for performing therapeutic abortions, under a Therapeutic Abortion Com mittee, which is made up of specific designated profess ionals and the board can then ask the Minister for desig nation, as a hospital qualified to perform therapeutic abortions under the aegis of that comm ittee.

So the initial position really rests with the board under the Criminal Code and as the honourable member knows, the board originally was preponderantly of the opinion that is what they wanted. They felt that service was necessary in the community and in the province but that situation has changed very dramatically in the last four or five months and as the honourable member points out, when a motion was put to the board to re-state its position on the subject last week, it resulted in a very very narrow vote favouring therapeutic abortion.

There are only two hospitals in the city at the present time which perform therapeutic abortions, The Health Sciences Centre and Victoria General. MR. DESJARDINS: I gather that the Minister is going along with the, I don't think he has too much of an alternative, with the Criminal Code in that we would and he's no t allowing and he's no t encou raging abor tion on demand, and I wou ld wonder if I could ask the Minister to check that

Monday, 23 March, 1981 comm ittee, therapeutic comm ittee, to make sure that they're not people that are, because there are some people that favour some doctors who favour abortion on demand and others that do n't, that at least there's a cross

section that at least we don't open up more than is the intent of the Criminal code at this time without changing the law, federally. Can I ask the Minister if there's anything new at Deer Lodge? You know, I talked about their lodge for three years. The Member for Seven Oaks talked about it for years and this Minister has talked about it for many years. Is there anything done? The Federal Government at one time were quite eager to get rid of all these hospitals and I think that they were making some fairly interesting suggestions or even offers, I think that we had done a lot of that negotia ting.

I think one of the things that was left was the question of the Legion and we had felt at the time that this is something that the Federal Government should solve, that we weren't going to take their political partisan, well political, those kind of political problems and of course we were ready to meet the needs of the Legion and the veterans if we did take it from the government, if the province did take over Deer Lodge.

Now I know the Minister has had permission, I think he was denied certain permission to use it, or he said that he wouldn't get permission, but he did get it in other areas, I think that the Federal Government has allowed us to use it to help the situation here. In other words could the Minister have some kind of a progressive report on Deer Lodge, if there's anything to report? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, first I would like to say on the abortion question that there is one extenuating condition to that which I have just outlin ed to the Honourable Member for St. Boniface.

The hospital board only has to ask the Minister for the designation to which I referred until the hospital receives its accreditation. Once the hospital receives its accreditation, it can make the decision on its own and accreditation generally takes from one to two years, I believe, one to two years after it's open. Well, it opened officially in January. On that point I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, and I'm sure the committee knows, but I'd like to repeat that I am strenuously and unalterably opp osed to abortion on demand.

I'm opposed to it on religious grounds and I'm opposed to it on moral and ethical and social grounds and I think comm ittee members know that I made my position clear and unequivocal at the time of some discussion and debate about the establishment of a free-standing centre for reproductive studies that was to be located in central Winnipeg, independent of the campus of the Health Sciences Centre. I appreciate and respect the opinion of those who argue that ther e are cases where abortion is necessary.

I would hope that they similarly appreciate and respect the argument of those who say that the question of the sanctity of life comes into this whole debate and it surely deserves very substantial weight in everyone's consideration. I'm not a member of the Catholic Church, but I oppose abortion on religious grounds and I don't mind saying so and repeating it.

Nonetheless, I would have to concede that, as Minister of Health, I'm Mi nister of Health for all Manitobans and there are heart rending problems in situations in which I think a case can be made for therapeutic abortion, so I have not argued too strenuously against therapeutic abortion; rigidly and religiously administered and controlled, but anything beyond that would meet the implacable resistance of this Minister and this government. On the question of Deer Lodge, I can't report a great deal of progress, Mr. Chairman.

We have attempted to permit the decision to be resolved in the arena where it rightfully belongs and that is between the Department of Veterans Affairs and The Royal Canadian Legion and those negotiations and discussions are still going on.

As the member knows, many veterans' hospitals across the country have in recent years been turned over by the Federal Go vernment to their respective Provincial Governments in each case, the most recent one being I think the Colonel Belcher in Calgary and if I'm not wrong, Deer Lodge is the last major veterans' hospital in the country, which is still operated under The Department of Veterans Affairs and very closely associated with The Royal Canadian Legion.

There may be one other, but certainly we're either the last or one of the last and the Legion rightfully has a very keen interest in the future of Deer Lodge and in the future configuration and disposition of the beds there because they're looking to what they feel is probably a coming surplus in terms of demand for medical services for veterans on the basis that many of the veterans of World War 11 are at middle age, and some of them are approaching their elderly years. We would like to - I'm not including anybody at this table, Mr.

Chairman - but there are some around, they tell me, who are moving into their 60s. We would like to get the Deer Lodge situation resolved because it's a good physical plant, it certainly requires some renovation and upgrading that would cost several millions of dolla rs if we're going to use it as an extended care hospital. (I nterject ion)- The Ho nourabl e Memb er for St. Bonif ace says the Feds would pay for that. That's true, but how much would they pay for it?

Part of the discussion has laundered on that question as to how much they would be willing to pay us to take it over and renovate it as an extended care hospital. We have an engineering study under way at the present time, which is intended to project a cost of renovation for us. I think the last official figure that the Federal Government was bandying about with us was $10 million, but that was some time ago and we believe that the costs to us would be substantially in excess of that and we would want a much better deal than that.

The other key point on which the whole subject turns at the moment is the question of priority beds and the legion's request for a large number of beds to be held in reserve at the hospital for veterans. Bed use at the hospital right now runs at about 250, but the hospital is rated for about 450 beds. The legion is requesting a very substantial number of those beds for veterans' purpo ses and we, of course, from our point of view, are prepared to entertain that kind of arrangement provided the Federal Government continues to accept the responsibility for the operat ion of th ose beds.

We want a substantial number of beds there for our own use, othe rwise it is of no use to us as a general community hospital for extended care patients. So at the moment, Mr. Chairman, I can't report any progress; I can't report anything other than 1974

Monday, 23 March, 1981 hope, but the Legion and the Federal Government are still in consultation on the matter. We are in consultation from a position on the sidelines and hoping that it can be resolved with a fair price from the Federal Government for us to take it over with agreement from the Legion - and this is absolutely fundamental agreement from the Legion that they are prep ared to have us take it over, provided a certain number of beds are reserved for veterans, and with assurance from the Federal Government that they will fund those veterans' beds.

We are getting good co-operation from the Federal Gover nment, Mr . Chairman, on the matter of tem porary use of a number of th ose beds for personal care. We have opened, under the aegis of the Fred Douglas Lodge and the Presbytery, which operates the Fred Douglas Lodge, we have opened a special personal care facility of 32 beds in Deer Lodge, and we've had excellent co-operation from the officials of Deer Lodge and from the Federal Government in that respect. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister how many patients, that should by rights be occupying personal care beds, are still in the hospital; that is, first those that are being panelled and therefore that are being charged the per diem in all hospitals in Manitoba and then others that have not been panelled yet, but are there only because there's no room for them anywhere else and they can't send them home for a number of reasons? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the total number in hospitals occupying acute care beds panelled for personal care is something under 400. it's less than 400, but one could say appro ximately 400. App roxiately 17 5, gi ve or take a half dozen, in Winnipeg, and the same number in rural Manitoba. The total waiting list for personal care beds in the province is approxima tely 1, 800 and that's divided pretty well equally between urban and rural app licants. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, are those 400 part of the 1,8 00, are they consi dered on the waiting list, or, because they are receiving the service are they not, and how many, I ask the Minister, are you talking about 400 that have been panelled now and should be in personal care home, are they all being panelled? And if so, what about the others that have not been panelled, either they are not getting that rate that they need the care, but because of some other factors, for instance nowhere to go and so they're still in the hospital?

The next question, I might as well ask you now, is the concern also that the hospitals, by the time they say, okay, these people better be out by a certain time or they're going to be charged so much, $10 0 a day or so. No w, of cour se, once they've been panelled at times they're doing that to scare the people, I'll grant you, but they're doing it - and the people that have been panelled, well then there's no problem. they are consider ed occupying a personal care bed? That's why I want to know what the number is. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the 400 are part of the 1, 800. They've all been panelled.

With respect to the others, our panelling procedures continue on an 1975 ongoing basis. Panels are held about every two weeks on an ongoing basis, but I'm assured, Mr. Chairman, that there is no attempt of any kind made to panel patients who don't require panelling. That is to say, that there is no pressure being exerted on tho se who are occupying beds in hospitals to bring them under the obligations of the personal care per diem. They're only panelled when a physician and a family requests that they be panelled for personal care.

Insofar as the other 1, 400 are concerned, most of them are, of course, at home, and they are on the waiting list. For all I know, the Honourable Member for St. Boni face may be on that waiting list. MR. DESJARDINS: I'm anticipating, but not this early. Mr. Chairman, the Minister misunderstood part of my question. I never for a minute wanted to suggest that there was pressure to have them panelled and to have them declared as needing this care, that's not what I was saying.

I was saying that if they haven't been panelled, or if after being panelled they weren't placed on that level of care that requires personal care homes, I was saying that there has been pressure on the hospital to have them removed from the hospitals and at times, not because of health reasons as much as social reasons, they haven't been able to get anywhere, then the pressure was put on these people by receiving a letter from certain hospitals that they would have to pay the per diem of $10 0 plus. That's what I was concerned about. Has the hospital the right to do that and what's the score on that? MR.

SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the hospital has the right to do that, but my Comm ission offi cials tell me they don't know of any single instance in the last two years in which that's been done. it's a matter of co-operation between the hospital and the patient and his or her family and that has not been done. MR. DESJARDINS: That depends. If you say they haven't collected, fine that's what I want to hear, but don't say that it hasn't been done, that they haven't threatened and sent letters, because they are doing that all the time. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, it's true that we have difficulty with long-stay patients in acute care beds. I am not disputing that, but they have not been charged for those beds. MR. DESJARDINS: One last question, I think there is lots of people that want to ask questions also; the physiotherapist, I think tha t's a program that's working well in the hospital. lt is covered under hospitalization in certain hospitals. Most of the major hospitals now they all have that service, and there is still a long list there too. lt takes quite a while to get there.

You have to be, of course, referred by a doctor and it takes a question of months at times to see an orthopedic surgeon, and at times even after you have an appointment like I had this morning, after waiting three months, the orthopedic surgeon wasn't there, and I left an hour after gett ing there and there was four ahead of me. I left an hour after my appointment was going to take place, and I think that is a problem in itself. Either maybe we should

Monday, 23 March, 1981 start recruiting there or maybe we should look at the system, and give these people a bit of help, maybe allow the physiotherapists to do a bit more, because right now the medical profess ion, like it or not, but they are pushing these people into the hands of the chiropracters, because when you have a sore back and so on, if you have to wait three months, you can't move until you see an orthopedic surgeon and then when you get there for some reason the appointme nt is cancelled and you have to wait another three months, and then you wait two or three months before you're put on a program at one of the hospitals that have that; by then you will either be dead or you won't give a damn, it will be a little late.

So it seems to me that should be looked at. This is not a criticism as such, but I think that it is a problem and it warrants the Minister to have a real good look at that and to see if they can improve the situation. I know that the physiotherapists have asked that they should be covered, and that's a dangerous thing.

That's anothe r debate; I think maybe there should be some coverage, but not necessarily the way they are suggesting it, because then it's not just a question of paramedical, they would want to be on the same level as a doctor for getting fees, and I think that is too costly for us at this time. lt seems to me that maybe they should, to relieve the situation or so, it migh t be that the Minister might look at maybe if there's not enough in the hospital, if these people are very busy, to maybe open certain areas; not necessarily let the people open it on fee-for-service, but maybe open other clinics.

There is no doubt that people have to wait for that service, and this is something that you just can't wait. You lose a lot of time at work and so on, so I wonder if the Minister would look into that and maybe report to us later. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, I can certainly do that, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to say that what we are attempting to do in this area is expand our capacity by adding physiotherapists to the out-patient dep,artments of hospitals. In 19 80 we added seven physiotherapy positions to hospital budgets and we are continuing to . . . MR. DESJAROINS: Are the facilities there too?

If they can bump into each other in certain area I think that - you have more facilities then? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, and one of the new progams this year is expansion of the Physiotherapy and Occupational Therapy Department at the Victoria General Hospital , which will bring it up to the required levels, and make it competitive with many others. Seven Oaks has one. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Elmwood, MR. DOERN: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, there's two issues that I wanted to raise with the Minister that I have been involv ed with and have drawn to this attention before.

First of all, I want to give him credit for adding orthopedic shoes to Medicare coverage. I think that step is overdue. I suppose it's partly a matter of dollars, but I know that the Minister's been aware of that problem all the year's that he has been Health Min ister, and finally seen fit to move on th at particular issue. I want to discuss a couple of specifics though with him in that regard and they grow out of a particular case, which was drawn to my attention by constituents in Elmw ood last September.

At that time in October I then made a public statement and briefly met with the Minister and since that time have been urging him to include this in Medicare and that is because of the fact that a young boy in primary grades, his family has had to pay $200 for a pair of orthopedic shoes. This is, of course, a tremendous cost for an average working family. I don't know what average shoes are exactly for children.

I have an eight-year-old daughter, and I guess her sho es run around $25 a pair and sometimes higher, but for an average working couple to pay $200 a pair is indeed an exorbitant amount of money. (I nterjection)- That's right, the Minister says they will more expensive yet, but they won't be $200 a pair. I am just saying that when you look at the amount of money that would be required to buy these shoes, it's exorbitant and when you consider the fact that any child requires more than a single pair of shoes, then you are getting into some big money. I want to show the Minister an example here.

I brought these particular boots to show the Minister, and the amazing thing is, these are both of different size and they fit in some compl icated way because of the fact that the child's feet are not normal. But they are very small shoes, and the thing that intrigued me when I first discussed it with the family was that essentially they are simply normal leather sho es. There is no device inside made out of metal or anything else. They are simply an ordina ry leather pair of shoes, and I cannot for the life of me see why -(I nterjection)- Yes, they are specially made, they are custom made.

They are made in Toronto and they cost $202.00.

One of the points I want to say to the Minister and draw to his attention is the fact that when you consider this amount of money for that kind of a shoe; first of all, it strikes me that there is something wrong with the charge, and I wonder whether it wouldn't be possible, given the fact that hospitals and organizations and agencies and individuals in Manitoba order these, several hundred - well I don't know about several hundred pair a year, certainly several hundred pair a year in terms of orthopedic shoes, as to how many are custom made, etc ., I wouldn't know - but I am simply saying to the Minister, the present procedure apparently is, or was when this person wrote me last September, you go to Deer Lodge Hospital, have an impression made and a last is made and sent to Toronto, then it takes several months and then they are custom-made and returned. lt strikes me, you kno w, I don't know if this is a rip-off or whether this is what costs are incurred, but for the amount of leather and the fact that there are people around who presumably can make shoes of any kind, surely there are people in Winnip eg, either in the hospitals or in the community, who could actually make these if they were guaranteeed or if it was indicated that they could receive orders of a certain quantity, so many dozen or a hundred pair per annum.

So that's really my first question which I asked of the Minister today in question period and that is, 1976

Monday, 23 March, 1981 would he look into the cost. You know, he's now going to cover half the cost of shoes, he's going to pay 50 percent of stock shoes to a maximum of $20, 50 percent of shoes for children with different size feet to a maximu of $30 and 50 percent of the cost of custom made shoes to a maximum of $10 0.00.

So that on a pair like this, he would be paying $1 00 and the people in the family would also be payi ng $1 00.00. lt just strikes me that that is too much money to be paying in total and I would like him to have somebody detail this matter and see whether that price co uldn't be brought down significantly which would be a saving to individuals and to the government. also whether or not they could be made in Manitoba; so that's what I wanted to ask the Minister first of all. MR. SHERMAN: Certainly I can explore that, Mr.

Chairman, and I would be happy to explore it with the Honourable Member for Elmwood and go on from there. Of course, as is the case with many products if not all products, one is controlled in what one can do and limited in what one can do by the market and by the costs of production that go into these various products. The rationale behind the formula for ensuring up to 50 percent of the cost of these shoes is really twofold.

First, that if we were to go beyond that figur e of 50 percent, we could be putting the program in a position where it could be exploited unnecessarily by manufacturers who simply elevated their prices on the grounds that the Manitoba taxpayer was going to be paying for all these things.

Secondly, and I don't say this facetiously in any way, because I fully appreciate the difficulty that parents have when any of their children have this disability, but shoes constitute a considerable household family, clothing and maintenance cost for all parents; shoes for all children, whether with disability or without disability, and so it didn't seem to us that it was fair to the average parent in Manitoba to be covering the costs of shoes in total for a particular group when obviously no one is sugg esting or contemplating that we cover the cost of all childrens shoes.

That's the rationale for the 50 percent figure. We are advised that in the category of children in Manitoba who may require stock orthopedic shoes, there are approximately 1, 620 such children, 1, 620, and that the average cost of those shoes is $40 per pair with alteration costs averaging $8.00 per pair. The cost of custom made shoes range, as the Ho nourable Member for ...

I'm sorry, I wasn't pausing on that, I know it's the Honourable Member for Elmwood, I was pausing on my material, over my material - custom made shoes as pointed out by the Honourable Member for Elmwood ranges from $1 00 per pair to $200 per pair and there are approxima tely 50 Manitoba children at any given time in this category and the cost of orthepedic shoes for children with different size feet who have to be supplied with two different size shoes, is $60 per pair plus $8.00 for alterations and th ere are approximately 13 0 children in that category. This is a start, I believe, Mr.

Chairman, in helping to relieve parents of children with this disability from some of the onerous burdens of that disability. it's not necessarily the end of the parameters of the pr ogram. We could be lo ok ing at broader parameters in future years but we wanted to get it launched and it seemed to us the rationale was reasonable. MR. DOERN: Just one final comment there, Mr. Ch airman, and that is that as I said, we have different estimates of how many children will be affected.

In the press release the Minister indicated 1, 800 children, but whatever the number, I hope that there'll be some method of contacting the people who could access the program because I don't know whether all go vernment agencie s and priv ate agencies have been informed of this specifically, and if not, then I think the Minister should ensure that they are, so that people aren't still ordering and still paying for these shoes without realizing that the program is in place. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to turn to a second issue and that is the bed shortage in Manitoba hospitals.

I drew a couple of instances to the Minister's attention before and I'm concerned that by the kind of response th at I got, that this situation remains unchanged.

I think part of the reason for the bed shortage in Manitoba hospitals, is the fact that there aren't enough nursing home beds and I gather that there were some 300 nursing home beds that were cancelled by the administration and the result is, there's a backlog of beds in the hospitals and the result is that people who require surgery are being forced to stand in line and wait longer and longer periods; or people who have heart attacks or people who req uire emergency tr eatment are finding thems elves in positions which I think are unacceptable in a province which claims to have a first rate medical system.

I think there are some loopholes and as my colleague from Transcona said, some bottlenecks. This is certainly one of the most impo rtant and severe bottlenecks and I want to go over two instances that I raised with the Minister in the House and all I have from him to date, is a letter saying, that I will hear from him in the future. Well this is not what I would call action and it certainly doesn't remedy the problem. I want to remind the Minister of two of these cases where an elderly gentleman, 84 years old, I choose not to use his name, but I did give his name to the Minister, went into St.

Boniface Hospital in late November of 19 80, had a heart attack and spent the evening in some holding facility that the hospital has, whic h I think largely consists of a room full of stretchers. I think that most people when they're in Manitoba and they have an emergency and they go to the hospital, they expect to wind up in a bed. I mean maybe that's an illusion, but it certainly is one that any average person walking the street holds.

Namely, they expect that when they go into the hospi tal for treament or emergenc y ca re or some thing, they'r e going to have a bed, not a stretcher and certainly not a stretcher in a corridor or not a stretcher in a draughty room. I'm simply quoting from the family of the individual, as I said an elderly gentleman, had a heart attack, went in ove rnight, was kept in effect in a so -called observation unit or holding area, that presumably he found uncomfortably cold and draughty. No, I'm sorry, I think I should say that this was perhaps a combina tion of cir cumstances.

My memo ry is becoming clearer as I'm talking. He had pneumonia perhaps. Perhaps it was pneumonia, rather than a heart attack and this was a complication, in the 1977

Monday, 23 March, 1981 sense of whatever he required was certainly a warm room, and when he discovered the circumstances he only wanted to do one thing, and that is to get out of the hospital, so he was allo wed to leave the facility. He suffered a relapse a day or so later and refused to go back into the hospital and the result is that he passed away at home two days later. Now that's one example. The other example is a letter I received from a constituent of mine; I'm going to pass this up to the Minister.

He had a copy of that earlier and this was written by a lady in my constituency, a senior citizen who was supposed to have a cataract operation and I want to read a couple of sentences or paragraphs from her letter. She said that quote, "I am virtually blind in my right eye and I'm losing the sight in my left eye.

Unfortu nately thi s type of surger y is considered to be elective." And she said, "I will not be scheduled for surgery until January 19 81 at the earliest, because of the shor tage of beds at Mi serico rdia Ho spit al, out of which her doc tor operates, and she said, I feel that this appalling." lncidentially she wrote me since then and told me that she wouldn't be able to have her surgery until early February; it was delayed even longer. Well, the Member for Minnedosa is going to offer his spot. He almost was operated on. Mr.

Chairman, she then addresses the Minister personally and says as follo ws, "You have repeatedly stated in the press and to the media that health care in Manitoba is extremely good and that Manitobans are enjoying a high level of health care. I wish to disagree with you. I for one, by having to wait a minimum of four to five months, am not enjoying a high level of health care." And then she says this which I think is the most powerful

part in the letter, she says, "Because cataract surgery is elective, I am denied a hospital bed . Let me assure you, Mr.

Sherman, going blind is not my elective." Well that's a pretty serious thing, a person's losing their eyesight, presumably time is of the essence, presumably by operating within a short period of time, that person would be able to have their sight saved and they are told that they are going to have to wait three or four months, which turns into four or five months, and then she says in the conclusion of her letter, "I am concerned not only for myself, but also for my husband and my sister, both of whom depend on me.

If I am blind before my surgery can take place, who will help them?" And then she says, "Restraint on government spending is admirable, Mr. Sherman, but not when Manitobans are required to accept reduced health care." So I think that's a fairly emotional and powerful statement by an average person.

I asked the lady if I could use her name in regard to this correspondence and she said that she would prefer that it wasn't used, but I did provide the Minister with a copy of the letter, and I'm simply saying that if this is what's going on in the hospitals, if this is what's happening, namely that peopl e who req uire treatment for pneumonia, and the elderly are being left in hallways or in holding areas on stretchers, this surely is not a desirable situation. If people who require surgery are being asked to wait four to five months for cataracts, because of a backlog, surely this is unacceptable.

So I'm saying to the Minister, what is he going to do about this. These surely cannot be isola ted 1978 examples. They must be representative of do zens or hundreds of other problems that the Minister is tack ling, and if it is true that the bed shortage is the result of a nursing home shortage, then I say to the Minister that he has got to do something more than he's doing now, and he cannot claim to be operating or supervising a first class health service if this is what is going on on a day-to-day basis in our hospitals. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, in the time available to me I won't be able to respond in full to the Member for Elmwood, but I will certainly do my best to deal with it at 8:00 o'clock. I would only say that in the case that he has just raised, the latter case of the lady with the cataracts, we did obtain the lady's name, I did respond to her, my chie f medical consultant was directly in touch with her and with her physician and insofar as I know the letter from which the honourable member quotes is outdated, and now precluded by explanations that were given to the lady and by events that have transpired since.

In the case of cataract operations, there is a point in time when the operation is viable, desirable and needed; there are many other points in time when it is premature to perform the operation. I'm not a doctor; I rely on doctors as this particular lady relies on her do ctor, and her ph ysician could have obtained a bed and performed that surgery at any time. We have assured the lady of that. He elected not to perform the operation until her cataracts had ripened , and that is a medical decision and a medical judgment.

Insofar as the honourable member's comment that these surely cannot be isolated examples, I want to assure the ho no urable member that they are absolutely iso lated examples. We have 18 ,000 admissions to acute care beds in Manitoba every year and we don't hear much about the vast majority of them who receive excellent treatment and express their satisfaction with that treatment. We do hear of these one or two isolated examples where there seems to be some lack of communic ation or misunderstanding. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:30 having arrived, I move comm ittee rise for Private Members' Hour.

SUPPL V - FINANCE MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): The committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 61 of the Main Estimates, Department of Finance. Resolution No. 66, Clause 6. Tax Credit Payments - pass - the Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to belabour this too much but it seems to me that this particular line is indicative of the cutback that is taking place with regard to tax credits.

In other words, it's quite obvious that roughly $15 million, something in the order of $15 million give or take a few hundred thousand, is being cut out of tax credit payments and no matter what the Minister or what the government says with regard to changes in this program, it seems to me that it's obvious that fewer

Monday, 23 March, 1981 dollars , substantially fewer dolla rs, are being made available to Manitoba tax filers who expect to get some rebate at time of filing of income tax. As a matter of fact, Mr . Chairman, I can say this, that no other single issue at the present time seems to be getting as much attention by the public of Manitoba. I have many many people tell me that they are very disappointed that their tax credit rebate this year is considerably less than last year.

I was in my riding from Friday evening until this morning and I can say I talked to several people, without going into detail, who were very disappoi nted that this had occurred, and they didn't understand why. They had some impress ion from previous government anno uncements that there was going to be more benefits and yet this line, which I would suppose is the bottom line in the entire package, is that there is less money being made available, and certainly the individuals, thousands of Manitobans, are now being made aware of this fact and they don't understand it.

I tried to explain to them that it was announced last year in the Budget Debate, it was made I believe, clear, to some extent by the Leader of the Opposition at that time that there was to be a new method of calculation -(l nterjection) not only the Leader of the Opposition but by other colleages, the Member for Seven Oaks and others have indicated quite clearly last year that this change in the method of calculation wou ld mean fewer dollars going in the way of assistance to tax filers to Manitoba residents.

I would say the people I talked to in my constituency and other people you happen to run into around the province, these are ordin ary people, these are people, good, solid working people, they have white collar jobs, blue collar jobs; some of them have wives that are working, but they're not rich people.

They are generally people of modest means, and they, I say, are upset, and I would say, if anything seems to be bothering the people right now, maybe next week or the week after there may be some other issue, but right now this seems to be an issue. lt may be rather quiet, it may be rather under the surface, but I would advise the government that a lot of people are being disappointed this year and are just wondering what is happening.

I kno w the Mi nister has stated that they are prepared to look at the matter with regard to pensioners, that's fine, but as I said, it seems from just a random sampling of opinion that you get as you wander around your constituency on the streets, in stores, etc., that people are upset about this. Is the government going to change its system in respect to tax credit payments? Is it prepared to at least look into it as the Minister, I believe stated he would look into the matter for senior citizens? Because as I said, Mr.

Chairman, it is not the real wealthy people - I know this Minister has often said, well, we want to give money to the people who need it the most, and we don't want to give money to people who are really wealthy and so on. Well, I say to him that I talked to pensioners and I've talked to people with very mod est means and both groups are being hurt. So it seems to me that it would be in order to revise this again so that people in these categories will not be deprived of some assistance as they have obtained over the years by means of tax credit rebates.

So I am wondering if the Minister can advise us whether the government is prepared to look at this system again? Is it prepared to look at the method of calculation and go back to the previous system or to make some adjustment so that people on modest means will get more in the way of a rebate than they appear to be getting under the system announced last year? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, I just wish to point out to the honourable member once more that if one is looking only at the cost of living tax credits, then one will encounter the sort of difficulty that the honourable member describes. The entire package of White Paper programs has to be looked at and that included the property tax rebates with larger increases for senior citizens, it included the Manitoba Suppl ement for the Elderly, and it includes benefits being paid through SAFER and SAFFR and to the Child Related Income Supp ort Program as well.

While I acknowledge some areas of difficulty and legitimate concern, I have found that in very many cases, the situation was being conside red from a narrow point of view and not from the perspective of the overall White Paper Reform programs. When the Member for Lac du Bonnet charged that in fact we were taking away $15 million and not provi ding benefits to needy Manitobans in return for that, Mr. Chairman, it's simply not true.

If the honourable members would look at the supplementary supply that was brought in last year they would see that there was some $28 million additional dollars that were required in supplementary supply to be directed towards the entire packa ge of Wh ite Paper programs. MR. EVANS: Is the Minister telling us that we cannot estimate the amount of tax credit payments available by looking at line 66 on page 61 of the Estimates? Is he suggesting that we should look at this but then consider that ther e will be supplementary supply brought down subsequently and that this will augment this particular amount? MR.

RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, what I was trying to indic ate to the honou rable memb er was that although, on an individual tax form, the Cost of Living Tax Credit might well be reduced from what it was last year, but one has to also look at how much of an incr ease that individua l got th rough the Manitoba Sup plement for Pensioners, for instance, which do es not sho w on the form and understandably, anyone filling out their tax form may not immediately recognize that the programs were tied together, or the money that people might get under the child related income support program, or the increased property tax payments as well.

So in order to examine any individual situation, I find that it's necessary to kno w mor e information than ordina rily comes to my attention when someone raises these problems. But we are attempting, through contact with people filling out forms and such, to try and find out the areas where there seems to be the concern, and to see if in fact those people are net losers, and to see just why they are losers, and if we think then that some thing should be done to adjust the system from what it was last year. 1979

Monday, 23 March, 1981 it's not as simple to acquire that information as one might like, but we are attempting to get it and we have given our comm itment that should our analysis show that it's necessary to make some adjustments, then we will consider making those adjustments. MR.

EVANS: thank the Minister for that information, and appreciate that he's prepared to at least keep an open mind on the matter and possibly review, but I just want to point out to him that there are many many families that will not benefit from CRISP and maybe the Minister will say rightly so, the Child Related Income Supplement Program. The fact is that many many ordina ry working people do not qualify for CRISP. There are many many pensioners who do not qualify for the Suppl ement for the Elderly, and of course you don't qualify for SAFER grants if you're not renting accommodation.

I'm pleased to note that many many pensioners in this province own their home and it's a home they have probably lived in for 50 years, or maybe more or maybe less. The average - well I don't know whether it's the average - but I know a great percentage of our pensioners do live in their own homes, and as I understand it the SAFER progam only relates to rental premises. I think if the Minister is able to eventually examine it, he will find that there are many p

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-5-43a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 5th hansardpdf 43a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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