Manitoba Hansard — 4 November 2005 (Sitting 7, 38th Legislature, 4th Session)

38-4-7

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVII No. 7 - 10 a.m., Friday, November 4, 2005

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P.

MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P.

STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. Vacant Fo rt Whyte P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

195 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, November 4, 2005 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 3–The Enforcement of Canadian Judgments Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Ms. Melnick), that Bill 3, The Enforcement of Canadian Judgments Act;

Loi sur l'exécution des jugements canadiens, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, this bill will allow for the recognition and enforcement in Manitoba of civil judgments granted by courts in other Canadian jurisdictions that will have particular significance for civil orders of protection. Those orders of protection granted in other provinces or territories will be able to be enforced by police here in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Amending of The Architects Act Mr.

Ron Schuler (Springfield): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: On September 16, 2005, the Manitoba Court of Queen's Bench revealed a significant conflict between The Engineerin g and Geoscientific Professions Act and The Architects Act. Currently architects are exempt from The Engineering and Geoscientific Professions Act, but engineers are not exempt from The Architects Act.

This decision will have a negative effect on the province's building and construction industries, increase costs to municipalities and other levels of government, lead to a brain drain, increase red tape and delay projects. Previous to the ruling, a choice existed between engaging architects or engineers to perform specified work according to their disciplines while protecting the safety of the public as guided by the Manitoba Building Code. Over the last seven years, the Manitoba Association of Architects (MAA) has rejected the two negotiated solutions.

Therefore, legislative change is the only reasonable and sustainable solution. Given that the ruling's implementation date is immediate, we call on the government to take appropriate steps in changing the legislation during the current session. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier (Mr. Doer) to consider amending The Architects Act to provide engineers an exemption similar to that enjoyed by the architects under The Engineering and Geoscientific Professions Act. Signed by Shaun Beatty, Erick Cabaltera, Bertug Akintug and many, many others. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Crocus Investment Fund Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Government was made aware of serious problems involving the Crocus Fund back in 2001. As a direct result of the government ignoring the red flags back in 2001, over 33 000 Crocus investors lost over $60 million.

Manitoba's provincial auditor stated "We believe the department was aware of the red flags at Crocus and failed to follow up on those in a timely way." The relationship between some union leaders, the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the NDP seems to be the

196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 primary reason as for why the government ignored the red flags. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider the need to seek clarification on why the government did not act on fixing the Crocus Fund back in 2001. Signed by Celedonia Magat, Narcisa Asperin and Sonia Palta. * (10:05) Mr. Speaker: Committee Reports, Tabling of Reports. Order. Mr. David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, if we have leave of the House to revert back to Petitions and that I may present on behalf of the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler) the petition that he has. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert back to Petitions so the honourable member can read the petition for the Member for Lakeside? Is there agreement? [Agreed] Mr. Faurschou: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Coverage of Insulin Pumps Mr. David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): I wish to present the following petition. These are the reasons for this petition: Insulin pumps cost over $6,500.

The cost of diabetes to the Manitoba government in 2005 will be approximately $214.4 million. Each day 16 Manitobans are diagnosed with this disease compared to the national average of only 11 new cases daily. Good blood sugar control reduces or eliminates kidney failure by 50 percent, blindness by 76 percent, nerve damage by 60 percent, cardiac disease by 35 percent and even amputations. Diabetes is an epidemic in our province and will become an unprecedented drain on our struggling health care system if we do not take action now.

The benefit of having an insulin pump is it also allows persons living with this life-altering disease to obtain good sugar control and become much healthier, complication-free individuals. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier (Mr. Doer) of Manitoba to consider covering the cost of insulin pumps that are prescribed by an endocrinologist or medical doctor under the Manitoba Health Insurance Plan. Presented by Sharon Jack, Sandy Jack, Brian Korotash and many, many others. ORAL QUESTIONS Maples Surgical Centre Partnership Agreement Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we know that Manitobans are languishing on waiting lists under this NDP government's health care system. The wait times for diagnostic tests in particular under this NDP government are skyrocketing. The Maples Surgical Centre has recently purchased an MRI scanner and is ready, willing and able to contract with this NDP government to relieve the stress on our health care system. This, Mr. Speaker, is a debate about putting ideology against patients.

I would ask this Premier is he going to turn his back on patients, or will he put his ideology aside and contract with Maples Surgical Centre to provide timely access to care for patients in Manitoba. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the wait- lists for MRIs here in Manitoba have been reduced as we have tripled the number of MRIs available for patient care in Manitoba. We have gone from two available for patient care when we came into office in '99 to six. We have another one scheduled in the '06-07 year.

Both the second last one we brought in and the one that is scheduled to come in in '06-07 are located in rural Manitoba, something that never happened under the former government. Under the Downey, Orchard regime of the past, they only talked about rural health care and did not provide any. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The wait-list for the MRI machines has gone from five to six months in '99 for adults to 12 weeks currently.

I say currently because the Pan Am Clinic is now receiving and putting in an MRI machine that will reduce again by close to 5000 patients the waiting lists for MRIs

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 197 here. Brandon, of course, has provided over 4000, 5000, I think, MRIs in Brandon for people that used to have to go to Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, for children, the Health Sciences Centre children pediatric dedicated MRI that we put in has reduced the waiting time from 24 weeks to 11 weeks. I would point out that one of the most important parts of this is that for any individual who is in a life and death situation, not on an elective list for MRIs, but a life and death situation, MRIs are provided immediately for those patients through the health care system. Mr.

Murray: Mr. Speaker, this is the hallmark of this Doer NDP government, strive for mediocrity. The point is there should be zero wait-lists. That should be the goal, that is attainable. The Maples Surgical Centre has purchased an MRI at no cost to taxpayers. The Premier has been given a golden opportunity to simply contract with the Maples Surgical Centre so the quality of life, the wait-lists that we see under this NDP government, are reduced to zero, Mr. Speaker. This MRI did not cost the government a single penny.

I ask the Premier if he will not agree to consider contracting with the Maples Surgical Centre to provide the necessary service to provide quality of life and reduce waiting lists to zero. It can be done if he just puts his ideology aside. * (10:10) Mr. Doer: Yes, I believe the last time we looked at numbers on another procedure, and I will bring out the facts, Mr. Speaker, that the procedure that was in competition with the Maples clinic was higher at the profit clinic than it was at the non-profit site.

I would point out in terms of the so-called ideological issues that the member opposite is raising, that, yes, we have taken the Pan Am Clinic from private-profit and having clawback by the way of the national government into a non-profit system and have decreased waiting lists and increased procedures dramatically. I also would point out that the Pan Am Clinic was utilized for us to negotiate a reduced price for cataracts that are still provid ed in a private clinic.

So some of the ideological baggage that the member opposite is claiming right now belies the common- sense wait reduction strategies that have been in place with this government. Mr. Murray: Common sense would say that if the private sector can build an MRI or put an MRI in here at no cost to taxpayers then that money, rather than purchasing a capital piece of equipment, can be used to purchase services, Mr. Speaker. That is common sense. Unfortunately, this Premier just does not get it. I ask him very clearly today, Mr. Speaker.

The issue is that an MRI has been put into the Maples Surgical Centre at no cost to taxpayers. That money could be used to purchase services. The government could purchase services on behalf of Manitoba patients, but this Premier refuses. I ask him very simply will he consider, because in the past he has refused to even consider, proposals from the Maples Surgical Centre. Will he at least consider providing a quality of life for Manitobans and contract out with the Maples Surgical Centre?

Will he do that to make sure that Manitobans get timely access to care and wait-lists go to zero, not the mediocrity that he strives for? Mr. Doer: I know the member opposite is a surrogate for the Maples cl inic but I am surprised that he is telling us that they are now a free medical clinic, that everybody can go in to the Maples clinic and get free medical services. That is remarkable, Mr. Speaker, because last time we did a comparison between the Maples clinic and, I believe, the Pan Am Clinic, there was a comparison of the procedure costs and the procedure costs were higher at Maples per patient.

So the member opposite is asking us to spend Monday, Wednesday, Fridays, spend more, Tuesdays and Thursdays, tax less, so he is now going into the spend more. This is not inconsistent by the way. The per cost per patient number quoted last year is not inconsistent with the 1998 report that was conducted and completed by Gary Filmon's government on the extra cost of a two-tier system. There are members of that Cabinet that are sitting on your front benches that know about that report, received that report and acted accordingly on that report. Mr.

Speaker, finally, I would like to say that the issue of Maples has not yet even gone to the College of Physicians and Surgeons for proper medical certification. So the member opposite is so ideological he wants us to approve something that has not even yet been approved by the doctors of this province. * (10:15)

198 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 Maples Surgical Centre Partnership Agreement Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): This government spent $3.5 million of taxpayers' money to install an MRI at the Pan Am Clinic. The MRI at Maples clinic has been purch ased with no taxpayers' dollars, a prime opportunity, Mr. Speaker, for this government to partner with the private sector and save money for our health care system. Why does this minister insist on spending money on equipment when the private sector is willing to pick up the tab? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, heaven help the people of Manitoba if the party opposite forms government because they seem to think that capital does not have to be repaid, that it is possible to buy something and not have to recover the capital involved in it. You can just give it away. I think the member opposite perhaps might take a basic course in business or a basic course in economics and understand that Maples, as a business operation, would surely expect to recover in the fees it charges for the cost of the machine. So the first answer to the member opposite is check your facts and your economics. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, the machines are not even vaguely comparable. The machine that is rumoured to be at the Maples, although we have not seen it, is a small machine for peripheral use– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Stefanson: I do not know what part of saving taxpayers $3.5 million that this government does not understand and this minister does not understand. I mean, that is $3.5 million more that can go into paying for more services fo r patients in Manitoba. It is as simple as that, Mr. Speaker. This minister is obviously paralyzed by his own socialist ideology. This debate is about patient care, not about his ideology.

Manitobans are waiting upwards of three months for MRIs in this province. I ask the Minister of Health will he set asid e his ideology and contract with the Maples clinic to reduce wait-lists for MRI scans. Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, it is baffling what the member is putting forward. The Maples has not approached us. They have not asked for us to do anything. They have not made a proposal. Therefore, we are not really in a pos ition to even discuss with them what they might be offering. Secondly, I was in Brandon yesterday announcing a $1.6-million, 64-slice CT scanner, and I took the opportunity, Mr.

Speaker, to inquire of the Brandon MRI what their wait-list was. They said we are booking scans in early December. That is four weeks or less for elective, and they are the only hospital that has a 24-hour radiology, seven days a week. Agriculture Support Program Government Commitment Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, Manitoba's agriculture industry has been devastated by the lasting effects of the BSE crisis, a downturn in grain and cereal crops, flooding and drought.

Manitoba producers have told us they need help, yet this NDP government continues to rely on the CAIS program and crop insurance, those programs that are producer paid. When is this Premier going to offer more than just lip-service to our agriculture communities? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I would refer the member opposite to the budget documents that indicate an allocation to the CAIS program of over $40 million, if my memory serves me correct, and he will note in the Speech from the Throne that there is an additional $12 million indicated and required for the CAIS income program for Manitoba.

So right there the

preamble from the member opposite is factually incorrect. * (10:20) Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, it is very clear that if this Premier would listen to rural Manitobans, that he has provided no leadership in that area at all. When the NDP are asked about serious questions, they continually point to programs that are producer paid. That is their solution. Two and a half years after the BSE crisis, this is the only livestock-producing province that does not have any additional slaughter capacity. When will this Premier show some leadership on this very important issue? Mr. Doer: The Member for Minnedosa (Mrs.

Rowat) was criticizing the ratio of investment that we were willing to make in the Rancher's Choice plant relative to the amount of the money we are investing in the ethanol plant in Minnedosa that is going up by 10 times, so here we are, and then the member, of course, from Emerson said we should not put any money into slaughter capacity, Mr. Speaker, and then he also said that we should be running a deficit. Mr. Speaker, I would point out that some of the agricultural organizations have commented on the

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 199 Speech from the Throne. There is lots of work, obviously, still to proceed with. I would point out that a considerable amount of money has been put in on flooding and flood issues that relate to the agricultural and rural communities in the last spring. I would also point out that we have reduced the education tax on farmland. We have gone from all the tax that was on farmland, with all those people who swaggered into coffee shops for 11 years and did nothing, we have reduced that farm tax by 60 percent going into next year's budget.

We also, 11 years of neglect, we have put excessive moisture for crop coverage into the crop insurance program, something the members opposite never did. Mr. Murray: You know, once again, we hear this Premier strive for mediocrity. We understand that 60 percent has been eliminated off of farmlands. It should be 100 percent. That is what Manitobans would say. It is very clear that, without meaningful support, many farms are going to disappear off the Manitoba landscape. The industry drives much of Manitoba's economy. Agriculture is in as much trouble today under this NDP government as it was in the 1930s.

The government offers no hope for producers, especially our young people. Why is this Premier content to see the demise of farm families and rural Manitoba? Why is he content to see that demise, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, the member opposite will know that the BSE interest rate was lower than market and much lower fo r young farmers because of this situation. I would point out the KAP press release dealing with the positive parts of the Speech from the Throne and some of the legitimate challenges that are in th e agricultural economy.

I think we have had three successive years of horrible weather for producers, an d it is creating a very serious situation in the farm economy. We had a drought in '03. We had the excessive moisture in '04, which was partially covered off by crop insurance measures, and excessive wet weather again in '05. I would also point out, Mr. Speaker, that we are proceeding with producers, not on our own– [interjection] The member opposite talks about socialism, and they want a totally socialistic slaughter plant.

We believe the producers and the government should be working together on a mixed ownership proposal for slaughter capacity to go along with the private sector development in potatoes, to go along with private sector development in hogs, to go along with private sector development in wind, to go along with private sector investments in ethanol. We are diversifying the agricultural economy. * (10:25) Livestock Industry Slaughter Capacity Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, what the Premier avoids mentioning is that when those industries, the potato industry and the hog industries, began to expand in this province there was government leadership. When are we going to get some leadership on slaughter capacity in this province? Five years ago we had an announcement on ethanol. Now we have another announcement. Three years ago we had an announcement on Rancher's Choice for slaughter capacity. Now we have another announcement and still no capacity. We want to see something happen out there. I ask the Minister of Industry (Mr.

Rondeau): What is he doing to provide some leadership so that these communities and the agricultural community can move forward? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Unlike the doom and gloom that we hear from across the way, our Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) has been working very hard to increase the slaughter capacity in this province. Since 1999, we have increased that slaughter capacity despite the doom and gloom from members across the way.

Our Minister of Agriculture has been working very hard with local producers, not just in the Dauphin area but across the province of Manitoba, to make sure that this Rancher's Choice initiative is successful. It is important to our province that we increase the slaughter capacity of this facility all across Manitoba, and, I want to add, Mr. Speaker, that many cattle producers do not share the doom– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Cummings: M r . S p e a k e r , s a y i n g t h a t w e a r e working hard does not cut it anymore, three years since the concept of Rancher's Choice was put before the government.

When will this government take the initiative to sit down with companies that want to invest in this province? There are companies looking to invest and expand capacity here. They need a recognition of their interest from this government to move forward. Agreements of understanding, infrastructure, all of the obvious things that used to happen in this province are not happening. When are they going to start doing something about it?

200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 Mr. Struthers: Well, Mr. Speaker, just the other day in this very House, and my friend from Ste. Rose can check the Hansard if he likes, but our Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) informed him that she has met with the company to get set up in his own community of Neepawa.

So it is fine for the member opposite to stand up and make those kinds of hot air statements in this House, but real action is being taken by our minister to increase slaughter capacity in this House, real action involving his own communities, involving communities in rural Manitoba that will produce fruitful results for ranchers in this province. Further to that, Mr. Speaker, I would refer the member to the Brandon Sun yesterday in which cattle producers do not share the doom and gloom attitude that I see across the way. It says here– Mr. Speaker: Order. Devils Lake Diversion Water Testing Mr.

Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, yesterday we asked for the test results of Devils Lake and received no answer. The Premier has indicated that there were some 20-odd people doing the tests on Devils Lake. Information we have obtained is that there were two employees from the Department of Water Stewardship taking samples on Devils Lake for better than, just under, three days. Would the minister verify this? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Stewardship): Mr.

Speaker, in fact, as part of the agreement between the U.S. federal government, the Canadian federal government and the states of Minnesota, North Dakota and, of course, the Province of Manitoba, representatives of Manitoba Water Stewardship, Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, North Dakota Game and Fish Department, North Dakota Department of Health, Spirit Lake Nation, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, U.S.

Fish and Wildlife Service and the Council on Environmental Quality did conduct a biota survey, something we have been calling for for some time, and it is a very positive development assessing risks that potentially could come from Devils Lake. So I am glad the member has finally woken up to the fact this work needed to be done and is being done. * (10:30) Government's Legal Costs Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, the Province of Manitoba has engaged the State of North Dakota in the courts on water, in the water and under the water.

Yet we are told by reliable sources that nothing has been found to cause Canada to request closure of Devils Lake outlet. Would the minister tell this House today exactly what cost the taxpayers of Manitoba have incurred in the courts including all travel, rentals, meals, lodging and ancillary costs? Mr. Ashton: Let us put on the record that this member and the Conservative caucus have opposed Manitoba protecting Manitoba's water in court. Let us put on the record as well that we went to court in terms of the NAWS water supply project in Minot. That is the Garrison, Mr.

Speaker, that would transfer Missouri water into the Hudson Bay basin. We went to court. We won three victories. We got a commitment to assessment and we got a partial injunction, and, indeed, every cent that we invested in that court decision is protecting Manitoba's water against Garrison. We make no apologies for that. Engineer and Architect Organizations Co-operative Agreement Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Despite repeated promises of bringing t ogether the engineers, geoscientists and architects to come to an agreement, this Doer government has offered nothing but its usual lip-service.

When will this minister live up to her commitment offered in the Throne Speech and offer an effective solution? Will this minister table the supposed co-operative agreement? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The Minister of Labour (Ms. Allan) and her officials are dealing with the two organizations that were in dispute at court, but we are also dealing with the broader public interests. There are organizations that were not covered by the court case such as the interior design people. There are organizations dealing with construction. There are building codes and other issues that have to be dealt with.

We are working on that legislation day and night. Part of that work is a constant consulting the broader industry. We are not going to be just as narrow as the engineers versus the architects with winner take all. We will be bringing in legislation that will be in the public interest. Mr. Schuler: When will this minister realize this is more than a mere dispute? It is potentially disastrous.

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 201 According to the City of Winnipeg, there are 35 projects that are likely to be impacted and 120 projects that are now awaiting legal advice regarding the September 19 ruling. Due to this minister's inability to deal with the crisis she has put the future of Manitoba's construction industry on hold. When will this minister act to solve this potentially disastrous solution? Mr. Doer: Well, the member opposite is talking about the decision of the court and calling it disastrous in terms of the judge's decision.

There is no question in our mind that the boom that we see in the building industry here in Manitoba, the boom that we now see in rebuilding downtown Winnipeg and all the projects that are go ing ahead, all the capital construction projects that are proceeding, some of which were opposed. I remember members opposite voted to a person against the new arena. Remember that? They voted against a new arena, and then they could not wait to get to the official opening of the new arena. We are going to bring in legislation to deal with the court decision because we are not going to let this boom stop.

We are going to keep building this province, Mr. Speaker. Income Assistance Recipients Housing Options (Brandon) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, during the last week I repeatedly pointed out that this NDP government's policies are one of the root causes of crime in Manitoba. Recently, Curtis Brown has investigated the reasons for the high crime rate in the Rosser ward in Brandon. He found that government policies contribute to the housing of vulnerable social assistance recipients in hotels which have VLTs and sell liquor. Thes e are vulnerable people often with physical or mental disabilities.

Why is the government contributing to crime by policies which support the housing of vulnerable people in gambling and liquor establishments? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Well, I cannot believe the audacity of the member from River Heights. He was a Cabinet minister in '93-94 when the federal government said social housing is not our responsibility. It is absolutely hypocritical for him to be speaking today on this issue when we are the government that brought Canada back to social housing through affordable housing . . . . Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, what is clear is that crime in Manitoba is being made worse by bad government policies, bad NDP government policies. Curtis Brown has investigated, and it is abundantly clear the situation is worse since this government took over social assistance from Brandon. The government policies are contributing to crime and to inner city decay. You only have to visit the area around those hotels in Brandon to see what is happening.

When will the government change its policy so that hotels that have vulnerable social assistance recipients become places of support instead of places where people are forced to live in association with gambling and liquor and other problems? Ms. Melnick: Mr. Speaker, what is abundantly clear is that the member from River Heights has been asleep at the wheel for the last six years.

We have been working with community groups to provide safe, low-income and a ffordable housing for Manitobans throughout the province, including a real special project on Rosser Avenue in Brandon in which EIA recipients were brought on as the workforce to build their homes. Several of the individuals left the project because of the training they received in this, and th ey have gone on to better employment. We have built, renovated and rehabilitated over 3200 units in the province of Manitoba, and we will continue to work with community groups as we continue to build this province. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, as the Brandon Sun investigation has made very clear, it is this government which is causing the problem instead of clearing it up. Why are all those empty shops there? Why is there so much crime there? It is because this government is not doing the right thing. The situation has deteriorated since they took over social assistance. This government continues to have policies which contribute to crime rather than helping people and supporting them.

When will the government make changes so that vulnerable people can live in safe and supportive environments rather than having to live in gambling and liquor establishments? Ms. Melnick: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, the member has missed one of our flagship programs. It is a success in urban areas in Manitoba. It is called Neighbourhoods Alive!, and I was very pleased and congratulate the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Smith) as this past year we have expanded the neighbourhoods to which Neighbourhoods Alive! has delivered in Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson. Again, we work with

202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 communities, we do not walk away from people. We are building new homes, renovating homes and we will continue to do so throughout our entire province. National Child Care Agreement Update Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, on April 29 the Province of Manitoba became the first jurisdiction in the history of Canada to sign a national child care agreement with the Government of Canada.

Can the Minister of Family Services and Housing provide the House with an update on the announcements this government has made for the provision of programs related to this agreement? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Well, Mr. Speaker, not only were we the first to sign a national child care agreement, we are the only jurisdiction in Canada with the money flowing. Our first announcement on July 12 was to increase wages for early childhood workers. The average salary in Manitoba for an ECE 2 is now $30,000, compared to an average across Canada of $18,000.

This past week I was very pleased to announce some $5.75 million for up to 3168 licensed spaces again throughout our province. I announced a few days ago that 91 centres would be receiving annual operating funding increases in Winnipeg. Yesterday I announced that 52 centres will be receiving annual operating costs and this afternoon I will– Mr. Speaker: Order. * (10:40) Westman Recycling Plant Closure Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, early this week it was announced that the Westman recycling plant in Brandon was preparing to close its doors.

You know this is devastating news for the city of Brandon. The main reason that this plant is shutting down is because this government has not made recycling a priority with years of deliberate underfunding. Mr. Speaker, when is this government going to own up to its failure to sustain recycling here in the province of Manitoba and give the needed support this recycling industry needs? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, we are in the process right now of arranging to meet with the Westman recyclers and talk about the problems they face.

That is a very good recycling depot, a multi-stream recycling plant. They, like other recycler s in this province, are suffering for a number of reasons most of which are the market in corrugated cardboard that has fallen apart. Having said that, I am totally open to working with the Westman recyclers to make sure their program is good. Tire Recycling Program Future Status Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, yesterday this government yet again demonstrated its inability to manage recycling in the province of Manitoba.

It was announced that now industry was going to be responsible for collecting thousands upon thousands of reused and spent tires here in the province of Manitoba. Can the Minister of Conservation, now that he has admitted bankrupting the tire recycling program in the province, tell this House whether this now jeopardizes all of the recy cling industry as well as the research industry based upon tire recycling in the province? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): This is very interesting, Mr. Speaker.

A few months ago this member was telling me just to throw some more money at the whole problem, just throw more money, Mr. Minister. Earlier this week, in the Portage newspapers, in the Portage media, this member was saying, "Go towards an industry-led model, Mr. Minister." Now today he is telling me, "Oh, do not do that, Mr. Minister. Do not just hand it over to industry." Well, this member has to jump on a bandwagon. Pick a bandwagon, jump on it and stay there. Mr.

Speaker, we have work ed diligently with our interim Tire Stewardship Board and our industry partners to come up with a much better model, long- term sustainable model for recycling tires in this province, and we are making a commitment to make sure that those tires do not end up in landfills. Mr. Faurschou: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the minister is getting his facts but he is factually incorrect. This government has withdrawn almost a million dollars of support from tire recycling here in the province of Manitoba over the last five years.

Earlier this year the government tried to save face and lent the Manitoba Product Stewardship corporation $300,000 just to keep it going.

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 203 Mr. Speaker, does the government expect the corporation to repay the $300,000 loan out of the $500,000 of funding announced yesterday? Mr. Struthers: Mr. Speaker, we have provided money so that the tire recyclers in this province can collect the tires that municipalities are worried are collecting in their landfills. We are moving ahead in the whole recycling, not just tires, not just product stewardship. We are moving it all on to a much more solid, long-term foundation.

We are using, I point out, the 80-20 ratio that was used by his government when they were in power as well. What we are making sure happens is that we are sticking to that 80-20 ratio, making sure that everybody pulls their weight to make sure that tires do not end up in landfills and that all kinds of products do not end up in landfills whether that be E-waste or hazardous waste or any of the products we produce. Manitoba Economy Growth Strategy Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the facts are there in big, bold letters for the Minister of Finance to see.

Economic growth, employment growth in Manitoba over the last five years is next to the bott om. We are on a race to the bottom. We are ninth out of 10 provinces in Canada. Every province in Canada except Saskatchewan outperformed Manitoba. Why has the Minister of Finance failed to create an economic climate in this province which will grow our economy in pace with the rest of Canada? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member missed it this morning when the new unemployment rate came out, and ours has dropped to 4.4 percent, the second-lowest in the country.

Perhaps the member missed it last year when 9500 private sector jobs were created in Manitoba. Perhaps the member missed the increase in private sector investment in this province. Perhaps the member missed the amount of money that is going into new research and development in this province in the biotech sector. Perhaps the member missed the last budget, when we increased the research and development tax credit by 33 percent, something that they did not do when they were in office. Mr. Hawranik: Mr.

Speaker, it is interesting to note that the only two provinces in Canada with NDP governments for the last five years were dead last in economic growth and employment growth. Dead last. That is his record. The only solace that this Doer NDP government has is that it outperformed another NDP government in Saskatchewan. NDP economics does not work. It is time to make Manitoba more competitive.

I ask the Minister of Finance to abandon the course that he has set for Manitoba and develop a long-term economic plan for Manitoba which will foster sustained economic growth and private sector jobs which are needed in Manitoba. Mr. Selinger: Unlike the members opposite when they were in government we actually do have a growth plan for this province, Mr. Speaker. We have a growth plan based on reinvesting in education. Members opposite used to think that if you left people ignorant that was the solution to economic growth. We have dramatically expanded college expansion opportunities.

We have increased enrolment in post-secondary education. We have increased investment in venture capital within this province. We have increased research and development investment inside this province. We have built on our energy advantage inside this province. We are building safer communities, and we have a program of immigration that has exceeded 8000 newcomers to this province when they declined under the members opposite. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. * (10:50) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Diabetes Month Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, I rise to inform the members of this Chamber that the month of November has been designated Diabetes Month by the Canadian Diabetes Association. Diabetes is an incurable disease that over two million Canadians suffer from. In 2001, approximately 63 000 Manitobans were living with diabetes. Approximately 6000 new cases are diagnosed annually in Manitoba. If left untreated, diabetes can lead to several health complications including heart disease and kidney disease. As Member for the Interlake, I am particularly aware of the problem that diabetes poses to the health of Manitobans.

In my constituency and the community of Ashern, Lakeshore general hospital has a specialized dialysis unit with 10 machines in operation to serve the needs of this region. Of the 69 000 Manitobans living in the North, 50 percent

204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 are Aboriginal. The Aboriginal rate of people living with Type 2 diabetes is approximately four times higher than the rate of all other Manitobans. Up to 90 percent of diabetes holders have Type 2 diabetes and scientists believe that a healthy diet, physical activity, weight control and stress reduction are the most effective ways to prevent this chronic disease and perhaps eliminate the suffering of thousands of Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, I am proud that our government recognizes the need for act ion.

Recently the Health Minister and the Healthy Living Minister announced a $6-million funding partnership with the federal government to battle chronic disease illness in Manitoba. The Chronic Disease Prevention Initiative will fight diabetes, cancer, cardiovascular disease, kidney disease and respirat ory disease. This is an important initiative as chronic disease represents 75 percent of human illness and costs our health care system billions of dollars every year. I commend the Canadian Diabetes Association for their work in raising awareness. This organization funds research, provides service– Mr.

Speaker: Order. Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Nevakshonoff: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Canadian Diabetes Asso ciation funds research, provides service, educates and advocates for those with diabetes. I would also like to thank the many partners in the Chronic Disease Prevention Initiative and commend them for their good work in fighting chronic disease in Manitoba. Letellier Bridge Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, we have heard much in this House about the crumbling infrastructure of the province of Manitoba and that was vividly brought home to me the other day.

On Monday, when I drove into the city, I was following a large truck, semi-trailer, coming into the city, and about 50 percent of the time the back wheels of that semi trailer were off the highway. That is how rough 75 highway is. It has been an absolute disaster. Last year I followed one of the trucks, and the trailer unhitched and headed into the ditch while the tractor kept running on down the road. That is how the bad the highway is. The reason I raise this question today, Mr. Speaker, is we have a bridge at Letellier that is falling into the river.

It is a major artery across the Red River for the commerc e east of the Red River right up to the Ontario border. Highway 201 serves as the main artery for the delivery of poultry products, of dairy products, of beef products and live beef that is destined for export. All of that product has to come across the bridge at Letellier. That bridge is now restricted to 25 tonnes and the minister of highways absolutely refuses to take positive action to cause the construction . The engineering, the financial planning, everything was done prior to this NDP government taking office to rebuild that bridge.

There is room to construct the new bridge right beside the old bridge. You can leave the old bridge there and use that as a temporary crossing while you build the new one without touching the reserve. I know the minister has constantly given the reason as the reserve not negotiating access to the road, and, well, they do not need it. The design can be done in such a way or the access can be done in such a way that the bridge can be built without accessing or needing the reserve property. Mr.

Speaker, the financial well-being of southeast Manitoba depends on that bridge, and it is time this government got on fixing their infrastructure. Spence Neighbourhood Association Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform the House about the great work being done by the Spence Neighbourhood Association to improve housing opportunities. Eight new infill houses on Spence Street, Langside Street and Furby Street have been completed and sold to new homeowners. Two of these houses are specially designed to be accessible for people with disabilities.

The Spence Neighbourhood Association is proud that a diverse group of families and individuals have moved into these homes. These new homes and homeowners are more good news for the West End. The Spence Neighbourh ood Association is a non-profit, community-driven organization that is working to improve housing, safety, image, employment and health in the Spence Neighbourhood Association. The association is supported by the highly successful Neighbourhoods Alive! program which began in 1999. The Spence Neighbourhood Association is a model community development group with an elected board and dedicated staff.

The funding for these eight homes came from the Winnipeg Housing and Homelessness Initiative, a tripartite partnership between the

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 205 Province, the federal government, and the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, the Spence Neighbourhood Association does vital work in the community. We recognize the importance of the work that they do. In June our government announced that it is renewing the $500,000 annual core funding for the five Neighbourhoods Alive! di stricts for another five years and expanding Neighbourhoods Alive! to new neighbourhoods.

Over the last five years this government has invested over $26.5 million, including $16.6 million to support almost 400 community projects and $9.9 million for the repair, rehabilitation or construction of over 1700 units of housing. The Spence Neighbourhood Association intends to build 10 more homes in this area next summer. These homes will continue to add stability to the area and raise property values. Congratulations to the Spence Neighbourhood Association for making Spence a better place to live. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Rural Health Care Services Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to express my concern at the crisis in rural health care in Manitoba, particularly in the Brandon and Westman areas of this province. This government has failed to manage health care in the province of Manitoba, and it has completely neglected the health care needs and challenges of Manitoba's rural communities. The Westman region has been suffering as a result of chronic doctor shortages for more than a year, shortages that have not been taken seriously by this government. I refer to the 17 doctors short in the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority and at least 11 in Brandon.

I want to express my concern as has been expressed to me by the citizens of my communities in the constituency that I represent in Arthur-Virden, where Boissevain is down to one doctor, Deloraine is down to one doctor. These are communities, as well as many others in Manitoba: Erickson, Birtle, Russell on some small portions of time, and others that have lost the emergency services that they so require to have a viable community and service the health needs of their citizens. Mr.

Speaker, this is also on top of the fact that, in Deloraine particularly, it is a government that announced that they wanted to have a cancer clinic there, and they have now allowed it to go down to one doctor. Certainly they have not been able to retain and recruit doctors, with the result that Manitoba taxpayers are now being forced to foot the bill, and in many of these communities the citizens have taken it upon themselves to try and raise funds to keep their services alive. Highway medicine is alive and well in Manitoba at a time of unprecedented revenue.

This government should have committed a fu lly funded in ter-facility ambulance transfer process as well, Mr. Speaker. They are forcing people to take ambulances to come to Winnipeg for services th at are not available in our rural communities and not even available in a regional centre like Brandon. It is unacceptable for a government to continue offloading the costs of these ambulance services to Manitoba patients because of their own government's inability to manage the health care system.

The NDP government failed to address the crisis in rural Manitoba and the costs of inter-facility ambulance transfers in their Throne Speech. This Premier (Mr. Doer) and this Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) have clearly demonstrated that they are not up to the job of fixing our health care system. Community Barbeque Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to talk about an important event that happened in my constituency of St. Norbert this past August. Mr.

Pisiak, the caretaker of 21 Newdale, approached me with an idea to help educate the tenants of his block on the issues of home and train safety. The majority of his tenants, along with most of the tenants of the surrounding apartment blocks, are new Canadians. Hosting a community barbeque seemed an ideal opportunity to both welcome these Canadians to our neighbourhood and to stress the importance of staying safe around trains and in our homes. With over a half-dozen schools along the CN rail line in St. Norbert, knowing how to remain safe around train tracks is imperative.

The dangers of the tracks can be brought home all too quickly, and when Mr. Pisiak noticed a sharp rise in the number of children playing near the tracks and on the cars themselves, he approached me in order to help educate the public. With the school season starting up again, such an initiative assumed paramount importance. With help from the local CN police, city police, Operation lifesaver, the Winnipeg Fire and

206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 Paramedic Service, Marianna Banana the clown and a local karate club, not to mention the hot refreshments enjoyed by all, children and parents alike were able to learn about safety around the tracks in a fun, relaxing atmosphere. The day was a huge success with in excess of 250 people in attendance at the event. * (11:00) Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this time to thank Mr. Pisiak and Bernadette McCann, the Immigrant and Refugee Outr each Facilitator for Fort Garry for all their work in making this community event such a success.

I would also like to thank all the sponsors and the invaluable assistance provided by the tireless volunteers w ho helped run the event. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS ADJOURNED DEBATE (Sixth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: Resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Member for The Maples (Mr. Aglugub), that the following address be presented to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (M r. Murray) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Emerson (Mr.

Penner), who has 20 minutes remaining. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): It gives me a great pleasure to rise again on these important matters that we can bring to the Legislature at this time. I want to take this opportunity to express my disappointment with the government and their inaction on the huge storm that went through the R.M. of Piney and flattened some 22 000 acres of valuable forest land. That 22 000 of valuable forest land, I am told by the industry and by the Conservation staff people, must be harvested before next spring.

It is virtually impossible to harvest and move that amount of wood into the marketplace in an orderly manner if it is not accommodated by the allowance by the minister of highways to allow for the transportation of that wood down his roads.

Some people in southeast Manitoba are wondering why we have built roads at all in southeast Manitoba and why this minister would not allow, in a disaster situation, the movement of that product into the marketplace to at least provide the economic benefit of the storm to the people that could make use of the industry and the large employment that could take place if the minister would allow the transportation of the wood product. I fail to understand how a minister can sit there crassly and read his newspaper while this issue is being discussed.

It is unbelievable that this kind of attitude is taken to a disaster as major as the one that has occurred in Sandilands. Secondly, I want to say that this government also has refused to announce that there would be a disaster assistance pr ogram offered to the municipality.

Oh, they told the people to make their applications and that the beginning of November was the deadline for the applications, but no answer has been given yet by government on any of these matters that have been requested time and time again by the municipalities and citizens' groups in that area that was so severely damaged, and the community of Sandilands, virtually all the trees in that community destroyed. The beauty of it is gone forever. This minister sits there and smiles like a Cheshire cat not wanting to respond to the request of the municipalities. I think that is unfortunate.

The same thing happened at St. Jean, Manitoba, and into the Red River Valley, and I farm personally in that Red River Valley. It is the first time in history, I am told, that the Red River levels actually flooded in mid-July at 1950 levels. We had, on our farm alone, up to 12 feet of water on seeded land, and there is nothing coming off of it. We are going to submit a claim for wildlife damage because we took a boat out onto the farm and we observed the carp eating the soybean plants, the young soybean plants, and grazing on the young soybean plants.

So we are in the process of determining exactly what the damage was and putting in a wildlife claim for at least that portion of the flooded area. Maybe we can get some money out of this government through that process. But all the other people that live in that Red River Valley, from Morri s south and from Morris north on the west side through Rosenort and all that area, no response yet from this government to the huge amount of damage that was caused during that July storm and the huge flooding that took place. They sit there on their thumbs and act as if nothing has occurred.

If this kind of damage would have occurred in the minister of highways' home town, I think he

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 207 would have done something, but nothing has happened. If this kind of damage would have happened in the Minister of Water Stewardship's (Mr. Ashton) home town of Thompson, I think he would have taken some action. I think this government, if it is not in an NDP-held riding and if it is not in an NDP-held part of the province, it really does not matter. That is how southern and southeast Manitoba now feel, that because they do not live in that NDP-held area, they ge t nothing and they really are not considered Manitobans. I think that is unfair.

I want to, also today, raise the issue of the agricultural disaster that is going on in this province, not just in the Red River Valley, but in many other parts of the province of Manitoba. I have never seen a government as blatantly, crassly ignoring the huge economic impact to the Treasury of this province that will occur next year and the year following because of the disasters of the last two years. I think it is time that this government better take some action or else they are going to lose a major portion of our young population in the rural areas. The jobs are gone. The industries are closing.

The service industries are closing and they are laying off people. These people talk about the economic well-being of the province of Manitoba. They should go and visit some of these communities. They should talk to some of the businesses. Th ey should talk to the employees that are being laid off. It is time that we recognize that.

The other issue that I find so interesting and so blatantly misleading by the ministers and how they portray how Devils Lake was done, they have made a big deal of sending two people out of the Water Stewardship Department to Devils Lake to spend less than three days doing some dip netting and testing of water in Devils Lake, two people. Then they talk about all the other jurisdictions that have sent people down there. Well, I just finished talking this morning to Mr.

Dave Glatt, who is the head of the Department of Health in North Dakota, and he told me that they had sent two divers into Devils Lake a day after all the Manitobans, both of them, left for home. They sent two divers in to see whether there were zebra mussels in Devils Lake. It had very little to do with what the minister was describing. Maybe those are the people he referred to as being under the water, or under the lake, I think, is what he described, and I think that is unfortunate. I want to say, though, Mr.

Speaker, that I have in my possession, offered to me by the Health Department in North Dakota, 10 years of results of the testing done on exactly the stuff that this minister has portrayed his department was looking for, 10 years of testing. I will give these to the minister if he wants them. They are interesting reading, because they certainly do not portray Devils Lake as he has wanted to portray Devils Lake. I do not understand it, why the minister would want to portray or misrepresent the facts that he can have if he wants them. As a matter of fact, what I will do is I will copy them and send them to him.

Then at least he cannot say that he did not get them. The other one is, I want to raise another study that was done on Devils Lake by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers in 1999, and it is the Scoping Document Devils Lake Emergency Outlet Environmental Impact Statement. There it is, all the testing that the minister might have wanted, instead of spending all of that time in court. No wonder he lost the court case, because all of the evidence was against him. The second one is the Final Scoping Document on Devils Lake Emergency Environmental Impact, Volume 2, written comments on Draft Scoping Document, 1999.

The third one is the supplemental scoping Devils Lake study Environmental Impact Statement which was done in 2001 by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. * (11:10) Then I want to exhibit the fifth document, which is the draft Devils Lake, North Dakota, Integrated Planning Report and Environmental Impact Statement, Volume 1, Main Report, Appendix 1, 2, and 3, February, 2002. Then I want to portray–and this one, by the way, I read the whole thing, and anybody, I challenge, should read this because it has a lot of information in it.

It is Volume 2 of the Devils Lake, North Dakota, Integrated Planning Report and Environmental Impact Statement, February 2002. Now, the reason I make reference to these is that if we want to have the Americans accept our scientific data and analysis on such matters as BSE, if we want them to accept them, then why are we so averse to accepting the en vironmental and scientific data that they are presenting to us as Manitobans at our will to examine and to study? We can examine them and we can go question them, as I have done time and time again, to ensure that these documents are not falsified.

I would say to you, Mr. Minister, you would have done yourself a favour if you had had your department access this information and re fer to them in your comments. You might have saved the

208 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 province of Manitoba better than a million in court costs and all those kinds of things. An Honourable Member: The member for Devils Lake. Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, I find it interesting when a member of this Legislature does his homework, that the minister, the member from Thompson, the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton), sits there and blatantly accuses me of being the minister for Devils Lake. Well, he sh ould be the minister for Manitoba and he should, honestly–[interjection] It would be nice to hear an honest portrayal, Mr.

Speaker, of the facts by the minister. It would be also nice to hear the minister say to the people of Manitoba, "Here is the evidence; here is the material." These are reputable firms. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers are reputable people that have done that kind of work. I think if we expect them to accept our scientific evidence, I would suspect they would expect us to accept th eir scientific evidence as well. This whole stack, seven documents here, clearly indicates what the content level is.

Whether we want to accept the content of the lake is another matter, but this portrays, I believe accurately, what is in the lake. It has been studied to death.

I think it is time that we got on with reality and dealt with matters that need to be dealt with; that is, we should be sitting down with North Dakota and saying, "What will it take to build a dam on the Pembina River at Valhalla to store water and to prevent flooding, prevent drought and drought-proof this province?" At Valhalla we could build another dam just on the Manitoba side in the Pembina gorge and create two large lakes, such as the Lake of the Prairies that has been such an economic benefit to this province, and to store water for future drought- proofing, to store water to prevent flooding.

I have a report in my possession that would indicate that the floodwater s could have been a foot lower on the Winnipeg dike if those two dams would have been in existence, as Lake of the Prairies was used to prevent the Assiniboine River from flooding and doing a major flood in that same year of 1997. I think it is time that this minister do what he is charged to do, and that is build structures that will retain water in this province that will store water and prevent the kind of flooding that we have seen in the past. We have some very significant areas where we could store large amounts of water.

Those waters could later on be used for industrial purposes, for irrigation purposes, for the economic development of our smaller rural communities and keep our young people at home. But this minister has no vision, and this government has no vision, no economic base, no sound base for using the kind of rhetoric that they have used on other jurisdictions. I think it really does not stand us, as Manitobans, in good stead when we sit here and attack our other jurisdictions, and then want to try and encourage them to come over here as tourists. Think about that.

I think it is about time that this minister recognize the economic damage that he personally and his Premier (Mr. Doer) have done to the economy of this province. Go ask your hotel industry: Was there any growth in the occupancy of their hotels and motels in Manitoba? Absolutely none. As a matter of fact, I am told that in many areas there were significantly less people in our hotels. Our tourism industries were not used as fully as they have been in the past. Mr. Speaker, maybe it is because this minister has made a lot of noise and deterred people from wanting to come to Manitoba. I think that is unfortunate.

That is unfortunate for all Manitobans. I would like to conclude today by saying that this government owes our young people an opportunity. It owes our young people an opportunity to practise what we have practised in this province for ages, and that is a chance to be food producers. Today, that opportunity has been taken away. We have heard a lot of rhetoric, Mr. Speaker, from our Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk). Yet, when you really look at the programs, they are not designed to encourage our young people to stay on our farms.

They are designed to cause people that know nothing about agriculture to think that this government is paying a lot of attention to the agriculture crisis. That is not so. That is incorrect. I would say that this government should pay a lot of attention to what is happening in the rural areas of Manitoba, the desolation that I see, the young people wanting no part of farming any more. There are many young people who I talk to today in high school and in our universities that are studying, and a lot more are attending university from our rural students, a lot more.

An Honourable Member: A lot more attend universities. Mr. Penner: Yes, you are right, and you know why? They are looking for other opportunities. They are looking for other options. They are going to leave the

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 209 farm. Who is going to take over? I will tell you who is going to take over. This government is the biggest supporter of corporate farming than any government I have ever seen in the history of this province. This government is so adverse to helping the small entrepreneur stay in business, they are doing everything in their power to promote the corporate evolution of the agricultural industry in this province. Statistics, Steve, do not lie. I should say the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton) should clearly know that statistics do not lie.

Statistics show clearly the huge number of farms that have been incorporated over the last five, six years–large numbers. Why are they doing it? Why are they doing it? An Honourable Member: For tax purposes. Mr. Penner: He says, "For tax purposes." There is very little tax being paid on farms these days except for the property tax that he and his government are dumping on the farm community. The 33 percent assessment that is going to come into being next year will more than increase the tax take by the Province on education than the rebate that they are paying to the farmers.

We have already done the numbers, and I am sure the minister and his government have also. So they are sitting there smiling. They gave them a 60 percent reduction for this coming year. Then, after that, what happens? We cut it all out, and the 33 percent assessment more than makes up the difference. I say to you that this is the kind of dilemma that the agricultural community is facing today, and it is time that this government pay some real attention, because the economic difficulty that is out there is real and it affects our youngest people the hardest. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (11:20) Hon.

Scott Smith (Minist er of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade): Good morning, Mr. Speaker. It is a pleasure to be back in session with my colleagues and all MLAs from our 57 different constituencies across the province. It is a pleasure to welcome our new pages that we have with us this session, and certainly, indeed, a real pleasure as I look across the floor, the member from Carman, it is always a pleasure, a gentleman, and a pleasure to be with all MLAs in the House. Mr.

Speaker, the Throne Speech that we had introduced just a short time ago builds on our blocks we have had over the last number of years in Manitoba and some systemic changes that we have worked on over the last six years to continue to build Manitoba, build Manitoba's economy. There were dark, dark days through the 1990s, and, in fact, as Manitoba went into reverse, it appeared that the government prior only knew one gear on the car, and that was the R, the reverse. We have got a lot of gears in our shifting, moving ahead.

I can tell you this Throne Speech again builds on that capacity to strengthen and enhance Manitoba and Manitoba's future. Mr. Speaker, it has been quite evident in the Throne Speech and over the last period of time, certainly the problems we have been faced with this summer. Many members have mentioned the true disaster we have had throughout this province in the last 12 months, and it has been a problem that is, indeed, one that rivals the 1997 floods, both in claims and in damage, and, in fact, much more widespread geographical areas throughout the entire province.

I would like to congratulate the staff that we have in EMO, the excellent job that they have done, obviously, in co-ordinating and managing this event. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair We have had nearly the same amount of claims that we had in 1997, Mr. Speaker. In fact, those claims and the speed and the way that EMO has executed dealing with people throughout all of Manitoba has certainly been worthy of praise. Mr.

Speaker, we have had proactive measures conducted by Water Stewardship, and we have had it done by conservation in building permanent dikes in many communities along the Lake Winnipeg basin and throughout other areas in the province of Manitoba. That has been working with municipalities and communities and sustainable long-term proactive measures in our emergency planning. Mr. Speaker, it was not that long ago many people had heard about the expansion that we had been looking at in Winnipeg and expanding the flood control for our largest capital city here in the province of Manitoba.

Members opposite continue to look at that as throwing money away. I have heard that over and over and over again from the member from Emerson, the members opposite, that, in fact, one of the largest expansions on our proactive measures have been met with criticism from the opposition. It only takes to look at what has happened on a large scale in New Orleans, and,

210 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 suddenly, members opposite have been very silent on the planning that we have done, on what we have looked at, on the expansion and the proactive measures that we are looking at here in the city of Winnipeg. It will create over a thousand jobs. It, certainly, will be something that is very proactive in the outcomes, in fact, in the multibillions of dollars in proactive measures that we are taking, well recognized after what we witnessed in the tragedy that we saw down in New Orleans. Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech mentions preparing for emergencies.

It is something that is critical. It is something that is on the top of the priority list for this government. It is something on the Premier's (Mr. Doer) priority list and every member on this side of the House. I would assume that all members in this House would agree that emergency preparedness is a priority and should be, certainly, after the events we have seen over the last five years or so. That is something we have made a priority. Legislation was passed in 2002, Mr.

Speaker, that did, in fact, requ ire formal arrangements between regional health authorities, municipalities, and that again will be reviewed. When the pandemic consideration that is out there that is, certainly, highlighted in many of our local newspapers and on the lips of Manitobans and, in fact, people across Canada and North America, we know that, in fact, we do have to have comprehensive planning for doing that.

That is being undertaken by all departments in the government and is certainly being co-ordinated by EMO and certainly being co- ordinated through Joel Kettner, our Chief Medical Officer here in the province, working with Canada and working with our closest neighbour in the United States. That is a priority. The Winnipeg Floodway, Mr. Speaker, as I had mentioned members opposite had quibbled about why we should be doing this. They quibbled about why this is something that is important for Manitoba.

They quibbled about why this is something important for Winnipeg, and they have been very silent on this issue over the last period of time. I can tell you that the proactive measures by this government are moving ahead. The shovels are in the ground and we are well on our way to making Winnipeg a much safer place. Mr. Speaker, the members opposite talk about philosophy and at times call this side of the House socialists.

I can tell you that Manitobans recognize when you have a balanced level of government, when you have a government that is proactive in considering not just one part of Manitoba but all of Manitoba in a large, systemic way. To build a future for Manitobans, certainly, is the direction that Manitobans have chosen. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, when we look at the action strategy and the seven priorities that we have set out and we have laid out over the last six years, we have moved well ahead, and the Throne Speech again recognizes that our Education First program is in fact working.

The member from Emerson just a short time ago had said that there have been considerable problems in the farming industry and our agriculture industry, and he is quite right, Mr. Speaker. Certainly, commodity prices have sunk to some of the lowest levels in a long period of time. We have had a lot of our farmers with excessive moisture, certainly throughout this year, one of the largest mid-summer floods we have ever seen in Manitoba's history.

Certainly, I can tell you that when he had mentioned about expanding in the university enrolment and expanding in the post-secondary enrolment in the province of Manitoba, and having many children and youth and people that are in rural Manitoba attending our post secondary educations, it is not a negative. It is not something that is negative; it is affordable now. It is something that certainly many of our rural youth that do get a post-secondary education in fact do return to the farm. They do return to their communities, and certainly they have been diversified in the last period of time.

Education is never a negative, Mr. Speaker. We have made it affordable. The post-secondary enrolment is up in the province of Manitoba. The capital expenditure that we have had in the province of Manitoba on the primary education years, certainly, is something that we are quite proud of. Again, we are expanding on that, building on that in every single community throughout the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, as we look at basically Manitoba's economy, both urban and in, certainly, rural and in northern, it has been positive over the last number of years.

It has been positive because of systemic changes we have made. It is something engaging the citizenships in Manitoba in all areas of the province, certainly through the Economic Advisory Committee that the Premier put together and structured to have that balance of rural, of urban, of agriculture, of all

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 211 industry in the province of Manitoba, educational institutions and certainly general citizens. Mr. Speaker, the revitalization is evident in every neighbourhood, not only in the city of Winnipeg, but the city of Brandon, the growth in Brandon, really, which is the second largest city in the province of Manitoba, a very key city and a city that needs support.

Again, when we take a little ride back in a history lesson, the member from Brandon East and myself sitting in City Council back in the nineties, '95, '96, '97, we saw the previous Filmon administration cut one of the most important economic engines that is in the city of Brandon, the Keystone Centre, down to zero funding. They stopped funding and committing to the Keystone Centre. * (11:30) Mr. Speaker, this government over and over and over again has worked with the community.

We have worked with the management and the board at the Keystone Centre, millions and millions of dollars committed by this government to expand what we see now coming together as a beautiful facility at the Keystone Centre with redevelopment there. The government before cut that. They cut the funding. They like to talk about the Keystone Centre. They like to talk about other areas in Brandon, but there was a drastic cut during the nineties, a systemic cut that affected the city of Brandon, the citizens in the city of Brandon, and certainly we can take another look.

The previous government pulled out of the Brandon Mental Health Centre grounds and left 450 000 square feet of buildings stagnant and sitting there with no plan. Now, the mothball party opposite certainly likes to talk about what they would like to see. On Monday, they talk about spending. On Tuesday, they talk about cutting, and on Wednesday, they talk about spending again. Mr. Speaker, you know what? It is obvious the members opposite do not have a direction.

I am not sure what happens in their caucus meetings, certainly of late, whether or not they are agreeing upon a direction that they should be headed or they are agreeing upon what they believe are priorities for Manitobans, but it strikes me very evident as I listen to members in the House on one hand talking about pushing the cart, the other one pulling it to hold it back. Mr. Speaker, that is not balance.

Balance is moving ahead in a sustainable way, as we have done, balancing our budget year over year over year after being elected in 1999, building Manitoba's economy and rural economy along with urban economy in a sustainable way. Mr. Speaker, I can tell you the first priority on education first in our action plan is working. It is building Manitoba, and it has been quite successful. Building through research and innovation, again, as part of the seven-point plan, is working and raising and retaining investment in Manitoba is obvious. Mr.

Speaker, you look at the community and you look within a few-block radius of the building that we are speaking in here today, the Legislative Building. The privilege that we have in this building is something we should all remember. When you make statements about the economy, you only have to walk out the front door of the Legislature and walk down the steps and look within a five-block radius.

The MTS Centre that members opposite had really voted against, certainly, over prior years, and said it would never fly, as the millionth person walks through the doors and the private investment is evident, working together in partnership. You walk another couple of blocks past that to Red River College where there are thousands of students downtown, coming downtown, and as you walk by there you will see this crane starting to break the ground where our new Hydro building will be in downtown Winnipeg. Mr.

Speaker, I can tell you, as the member from Brandon West, I am proud of the growth that we have seen in our capital cities, Brandon and Winnipeg. It is very evident when you drive through the community of Brandon, and the commitment that we have made on large capital expenditures in the city of Brandon. We go back to Assiniboine Community College in Brandon, which is expanding, bursting at the seams, and the expansion and the direction we will be taking with the Brandon Mental Health Centre grounds. Certainly, again, continued growth.

The mothball party opposite closing buildings; us, again, building Manitoba and, certainly, doing it in a sustainable way. Mr. Speaker, as a growth we have seen, certainly, the member from Brandon East recognized this as well, the amount of housing starts that we

212 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 have seen in the community is a pretty good indication for Manitobans on confidence that they have in the economy, and y ear after year after year, from 2001 until this year, we have broke all records in the province of Manitoba, the highest housing starts, the largest volume in sales in Manitoba's history, and one of the lowest unemployment rates in the entire country. Mr. Speaker, we are a growth party and it is evident. The members opposite want to complain about jobs and job creation in Manitoba.

Well, I can tell you year after year af ter year, having one of the lowest unemployment rates in Canada, one of the highest enrolments in post-secondary education, and now for the first time in well over 20 years we are seeing Manitoba growth. More young people coming to Manitoba, certainly, has been a positive sign, people coming back to Manitoba as Manitoba's economy is growing, and that has not happened for well over 20 years. We lo st, year after year after year, throughout the entire nineties, citizens out of Manitoba, and now we are gaining for the first time in a number of years.

It is evident that Manitoba's economy is strong. Manitoba's economy continues to boom. Manitoba's economy is very attractive for the youth that we are seeing coming back. Mr. Speaker, our immigration policies have been stellar. I can tell you over the last couple of years it has continued to grow. Manitoba was built on our immigration policies over the last 100 years. Again, we are seeing a surge in immigration coming to Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I can tell you, you know, when you look at the business community in Manitoba, and members opposite want to rant and rave about what we are doing in taxation and what we are doing. Again, on Monday they talk about spending more money and then on Tuesday cutting the money. But I can tell you it is recognized both in the business community and, certainly, by labour in the province of Manitoba that this government listens to all sides. This government listens to what we are doing in business. We are listening to what we are doing in agriculture.

Certainly, the member from Steinbach has recognized, and I have heard him say, and he is nodding his head about the expanding support that we are having for farming communities throughout the province of Manitoba. AMM certainly, and the member, I believe, well, maybe he has not been to a meeting of AMM, but I have been to many meetings with AMM, and the member seems to be indicating– [interjection] Oh, he has not. I think he is saying he has not been to an AMM meeting. I can tell him, if he has not been, Mr. Speaker– Point of Order Mr. Deputy Speaker: A p oint of order is being raised.

State the point of order, please. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Deputy Speaker, just for clarification, I have been at AMM meetings. I think the member is confused. I have talked about the growth in my community which is due to the good citizens of Steinbach, nothing to do with this government. I commend the community. I commend all the people in the Steinbach constituency. They should not take credit for something they have nothing to do with. Mr. Deputy Speaker: A point of difference in facts is not a point of order. * * * Mr. Smith: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The member may want to come to Brandon sometime. Certainly, I made the offer a short time ago that I could provide him with a map to get around the community. If he comes to my constituency office I would be more than happy to show him actually where things are in Br andon, where the new redevelopment of our hospital is in Brandon and some of the new positive placements we have had with our MRIs, over 4000, the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) had mentioned, people who do not have to come to Winnipeg anymore.

I know many of his members from Steinbach now have more MRIs to attend to here in the city of Winnipeg and certainly that has been a positive. Mr. Speaker, I can tell you as we were speaking about the housing starts in Manitoba and the real estate sales in Manitoba and the value of people's housing in Manitoba and the positive that that has seen in all citizens throughout the province of Manitoba on capital growth for citizens and worth in Manitoba has been nothing but positive. Mr.

Speaker, when we look at some of the cuts that we have made, and done it in a sustainable way, we have done it with a balanced budget. Members opposite like to talk about tax cuts and cuts for business. I will remind the members opposite that it was this side of the House, the New Democratic Party of Manitoba, that made the first corporate cut in income tax since the Second World War. I know

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 they want to talk about how it is not enough or it is not going far enough, but we have made that cut. We have taken 17 percent to 15 percent and now another commitment down to 14.5 percent, 14 percent by 2007. Mr. Speaker, we are s eeing building cranes in Manitoba. We are seeing Hydro development in Manitoba. We are seeing wind power development in Manitoba. We are seeing ethanol development in Manitoba. It is evident to people in Manitoba that the mothballing party opposite never created more than two watts of energy in the province of Manitoba.

We will build Manitoba. We will continue to build Manitoba with our Crown corporations. Their answer is to sell off Crown corporations, sell off MTS. I dare to say they would likely sell off Manitoba Hydro and other Crown corporations we have if they ever had a chance. It is evident in their history and their past, and it is a pattern. We will continue to build Manitoba working with Manitobans and certainly do it in a sustainable way. Mr. Speaker, Manitobans, I believe, have confidence in the New Democratic Party of Manitoba. It is for a good reason. We are on solid ground.

We will continue to build this province. * (11:40) Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): I t i s a l w a y s a pleasure to stand up and talk on the address to the Throne Speech. It is something that we have had the opportunity to do now quite a few times. Before I start into th e Throne Speech, I just wanted to congratulate the new pages that we have in the Chamber that do a lot of work for us and run around to the needs and, you know, some of the things that the members are always involved with. I hope I pronounce some of these names right.

From the Winnipeg School Division we have Hemali Vyas with Grant Park High School; Monica De Castro from Kelvin High School; Nicholas Dupuis from the Gabrielle-Roy School; from Portage la Prairie we have Gillian Thornton; Ryan Foyle from Portage Collegiate; Chad Jacobson from the Gimli High School; and Alannah Hallas, West Kildonan Collegiate; and Daniel Winstanley from the Maples Collegiate. So I just wanted to congratulate them on their involvement with the pages. I think that it gives them a tremendous opportunity and exposure to some of the goings-on of government here in Manitoba.

It is a tremendous learning experience, I hope, that they take forward when they go on into later schooling or endeavours, that they can look back on with fond memories of the times here in the Legislative Building, not only in the Chamber but sometimes in the committee rooms that go on and on sometimes. So we are very fortunate to have these young people involved in the process here in the building.

We have heard this government come down with a Throne Speech, and I think the Throne Speech is usually regarded as a blueprint, if you want to call it, or some people call it a vision, a vision of what the government, the ruling government wants to bring forth in regard to their di rections and their solutions of what they feel is important for the people of Manitoba and how they can address things. A lot of times it is looked forward to with anticipation, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and the reason for that is that you always look for something fresh, some new vision, the opportunity for Manitobans to have hope, you know, the role of the government to encourage progress and opportunity. You look to that Throne Speech and think of, well, where are we going to see this great unveiling through the Throne Speech? Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not know whether we saw anything this time. We saw a lot of tired clichés. We saw a lot of relationships relating back to 1999. We heard that recurring throughout their speech. What happened in 1999?

There was a change of government, but it seems that this government always looks back to the times and before as a way of bringing forth their points of view. In fact, in the Throne Speech it was mentioned 17 times "since 1999" they used in the Throne Speech. You know, we could use that as a benchmark, too, Mr. Deputy Speaker , because since 1999 the question can be asked: Well, what happened to the debt in Manitoba? Did it go down? No, it went up and up and up. Have the taxes gone down overall? No, they have gone up and up. I mean, have the amount of people that are working gone up?

They say that they have gone up, but, I mean, when you look at the figures you are looking at almost 70 percent of the new job growth here in Manitoba has been in the public sector. You have got to ask the question: How sustainable is that? How can jobs that are relying strictly on government participation be strong jobs that are going to create the strength that we need? We need the strength, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in the private sector and in business to take the

214 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 initiative to create jobs. Those are the things that I think that we are lacking in this province in the sense of the optimism that business brings forth. The ability for the government to react to situations is slow; sometimes it is very costly in effect. In fact, we are seeing that right now with the unfortunate loggerheads, if you want to call it, between the architects and the engineers here in Manitoba, and the fact that the government is saying that they are going to address the problem.

They have said that they have sat down and talked with the participants, they are working on solutions, but we do not see anything happening. Then, at the same time, we see the fact that a lot of projects here in Manitoba are on hold, because of the fact that they do not know a strong direction as to what is happening. As I mentioned, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that we do see a tremendous amount of debt growth in this province. In fact, I think the debt growth right now is growing at $1.5 million a day. It continues to grow at a rate that is unacceptable.

We are looking at a debt of almost $20 billion here in the province of Manitoba. Whether that is sustainable or not, I think that, unfortunately, our grandchildren and our great- great-grandchildren are going to have to absorb and pay off because of the spending habit of a government that has been in power too long, and that is what the people are saying, is they cannot sustain this debt. In fact, the servicing of the debt alone, just to servicing of the debt is almost $770 million a year.

So, if you look at the amount of money that is going out just to service the debt on that, where money that could go into other areas of need, $770 million, if you look at whether it went in health care or education or safety and security, is something that I think that everybody would welcome. But instead it goes to the debt repayment and the interest repayment, I should say, that is on this debt. It is incredible and it is something that I think the government has to address.

So it is something that we have been actively campaigning in the sense of trying to get the government to recognize this, to look at how they can eliminate the debt, how they can increase the opportunity for job growth. They were talking this morning about the fact that unemployment has gone down here in Manitoba, but if you look at the job force itself, the job force numbers in Manitoba have actually gone down. So the amount of people that are eligible to work has actually gone down. The brain drain, as we call it, of qualified and educated individuals here in Manitoba, a lot of them leave this province.

They get a tremendous opportunity, they get a good education, but they see the opportunity somewhere else, whether it is in western Canada, or eastern, or even in the Unit ed States, where they do some recruiting. There have been stories circulating in regard to the trades profession here in Manitoba, how they are being lured to other parts of Canada because of the fact of the shortage of skilled tradespersons. In fact, I have heard of one incidence because of the growth in British Columbia and the fact that they are hosting the Olympics in 2008, I believe it is, or 2007.

I am not that clear of the date– [interjection]–2010? Mr. Deputy Speaker, 2010, that the amount of building growth in there, they need the individuals. So they are actually recruiting people, paying for them to come there and giving them a bonus to come to British Columbia. So we are losing people that way, too. We are not competitive. The First Minister (Mr. Doer) was talking this morning about the growth and the new buildings and this stuff, and the cranes are flying. He says "The cranes are flying in Winnipeg again." Mr. Speaker, those are all public cranes. Those are all public dollars.

You know, they ballyhoo the fact that we have a new Hydro building coming in downtown that is going to cost $270 million, $270 million for a new building on Portage Avenue, and they are ballyhooing that that is such a great expenditure. I have to relate that to the announcement that was made by CanWest and the fact that they ar e looking at expanding their building on the corner of Portage and Main.

That is private sector, private-sector development, and they can do it for $40 million, but the public sector has to foot the bill for $270 million for a Hydro building on Portage Avenue. * (11:50) So, in relationship, it is still way too expensive, but these are the things that this government will go out and ballyhoo that they are doing all these great things. Who is going to pay for it? Who is paying for it? The taxpayers. Who is paying for it? The ratepayers, the people of Manitoba. So, I mean, these are some of the things that the government has to look at in relationship to what they are doing.

In the area of educatio n, I know my colleagues are very interested to help me get a new school in my constituency and they should be concerned– An Honourable Member: Who is paying for it?

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 215 Mr. Reimer: The government should be paying for that school. You see, that is exactly the role of government. The role of government is to supply educational needs here in the province. I am not degrading that. In fact, I would encourage that. I would encourage that becaus e there is a payoff, and when you have new growth in new areas and new families going into the area–the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr.

Smith) was talking about all the new housing starts, tremendous amount of housing starts in my constituency, one of the fastest growing areas in Manitoba. One of the highest growth areas for new homes is in my constituency, but what is happening? This government does not look at the social infrastructure. It does not look at the fact that it needs new schools. It does not look at the fact that it needs new recreational facilities, but th ey can stand here and–in fact, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, they are even part of that building boom in here because they are in joint partnership with some of the developers for the developing of that land in my constituency. So, I mean, they are trying to ha ve it both ways and even eat the cake at the same time, but they do have to look at the fact that in certain areas of the city, especially the southeast area of the city, there was a tremendous amount of growth of new homes and yet they do not look at the proper facilities that should be put into place which is new schools or an expansion of schools. It is not only in my constituency.

I know the Member for River East is lobbying for the same thing, but even she cannot get it and she sits at the Cabinet bench to get these things addressed– An Honourable Member: Seine River. Mr. Reimer: Seine River, pardon me, not River East; yes, Seine River. I knew there was a river in there somewhere, but it is the Seine River. So those are some of the things that this government has to look at very, very seriously. In fact, even the school trustees in the school division, in the Riel School Division, are becoming very, very frustrated with the fact that they cannot get the facilities in their area.

I know that they have met with the minister. I have met with him numerous times, but there does not seem any type of movement towards trying to get a resolve on that problem. In that Riel School Division, there are four Cabinet ministers that cover that area and not one of them can do anything for that area in regard to schools, not one. I mean there is ineffectiveness, if you want to talk about it, four Cabinet ministers in one school division and they cannot address the problem of having adequate schooling and facilities in that area. Now there is an ineffective approach to trying to get things in there done.

So, Mr. Speaker, you talk about lobbying and trying to get things done, it seems that the government has its own agenda, its own direction and a few of the people that are around the table are getting their way on decision-making and a lot of the areas of the province are being neglected and in the city of Winnipeg particularly. As an urban member, I know that we have a tremendous amount of problems with, and a growing number or gangs in certain areas of the city. It is something that has become very, very prevalent, the fact that drugs are becoming more prolific in the streets.

We have had the unfortunate incidence of the death, of a shooting, which is very, very tragic, because of gang warfare. It is something that I think that the people of Winnipeg and I guess the people all throughout all of Manitoba are very concerned about, the fact of this growing crime problem. I know the Minister of Just ice (Mr. Mackintosh) has made a lot of announcements and he is good at making announcements. Mr. Speaker in the Chair The Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) is defending the fact that there are kits given out, crack kits, for the use of drugs.

These are a ll areas that are, I think, very, very concerning. We have seen organized gangs come in under this government. The Hells Angels came into Manitoba under the NDP. The Bandidos came into Manitoba with the NDP in power. We have seen the growth of the Mad Cowz gang coming into Winnipeg, the African Mafia. All these gangs are flourishing under the Justice Minister's watch and he is not doing anything. But he will make a press announcement. He will make announcements and bring out more paper, but we do not see any results.

I think the people of Manitoba, and particularly the people of Winnipeg, are seeing that there is a lot of huff and blow, but nothing comes about. Unfortunately, there is still gang activity. There are still young people getting caught up in drugs and gang activity. It is something that I think is becoming very, very evident and prevalent in the streets of Winnipeg, Brandon and a lot of other places here in Manitoba that this government does not take a

216 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 serious look at. But they can make announcements and make press releases which do not really bring a solution to the problem. We have advocated. The critic for Justice has come out with a plan. It would mean the government taking a cold, hard look at it and coming out with possibly their own plan that is blueprinted off of ours and we would support that. I think that everybody is in agreement that crime and some of the tragic things that happen, everybody wants that eliminated from our streets.

It is not a political thing; it is a thing that all politicians would strive for. So, I mean, if there was a willingness for the government to take our party's Justice critic, some of the solutions that he has brought forth, adapt them, change them a little bit, and we come out with a good, strong policy, it is good for government. It is good for the people of Manitoba. I think that is something we should strive for, instead of trying to one-upmanship on the thing.

These are some of the things I think we have to look at if you want to bring good government to this province, and that sometimes it means that both parties or all three parties have to look at it in a very serious manner. We have talked a lot about health care here in Manitoba.

I think that that is something that I recall back to 1999, as the Throne Speech kept saying, and I remember that great line that the First Minister came out with saying that "We will eliminate the waiting lists in six months with $15 million." The people thought, "Wow, maybe he has got something there." But now we have got six years later and people are still waiting. One of my responsibilities is critic for seniors. I get a chance to go to a fair amount of events and functions where seniors are at.

More and more I get people telling me about the tremendous wait they have to wait for hip and knee replacements, for cataract surgery. I know that it is a real concern to a l o t o f s e n i o r s . T h e N D P s a y s , " W e l l , w e a r e addressing it." But, you know, the people on the street are not seeing the results. I think that is where the rubber hits the road.

It is the people on the street that have got to say, "Yes, I got a phone call and I am now, instead of being two years on the waiting list, I am down to three months or something like that." Then they have something to stand up in this House and crow about. But to just say, "We are looking at it and we are putting the resources in it and the results are going to come about in three to four years," in the meantime that individual or that senior is suffering with knees or hips that are causing all kinds of problems. It is disgraceful.

Also, even with cataract surgery that some of these seniors need, they cannot get coverage for. So it really– [interjection] Is that what they do? * (12:00) Oh, you know, one of the things, Mr. Speaker, that I have always had the privilege and the honour of doing, and it just seems to be a coincidence that I am always speaking after the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway).

I get so energized after the Member for Elmwood speaks because he comes forth with such far-ranging and far left ideology that it is quite enjoyable to come after him and even try to correct him because a lot of things that he says do need correcting because he does have a good memory and a long memory, and I will give him that credit. He can remember a lot of things that happened way back. When we talk 1999, he could go further back than that, but I am going to miss out on that this year. This year, the roles are reversed because, I believe that in the speaking order the Member for Elmwood might be after me.

So he will have the opportunity to try to correct the wonderful statements that I have put on record and, in fact, the timely phrases and comments that I know that he will maybe even embrace and take to heart and he will take these messages back to his caucus and his Cabinet colleagues and say, "You know, the Member for Southdale has some good ideas there. I think we should adopt them. I think so." I look forward to that because the Member for Elmwood is an honourable gentleman, and I am sure that he would recognize that some of the directions that I am suggesting do carry an awful lot of merit and truth.

He would do it. I look forward to his reply to the Throne Speech because it is always a very strong indication. I do want to talk a little bit, I mentioned briefly, about education. I think when you talk about education, you have got to talk about property taxes, school taxes on property.

I mentioned earlier I am in a new area, I am in a growth area and a lot of new homes, some very, very nice homes in the constituency of Southdale, and one of the things that comes up in conversations with some of my constituents is the fact that they are sick and tired of paying so much school tax because of the value of their property. They feel it is totally unfair, it is unjustified, and the fact that well over half of their tax bill is an educational component.

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 217 I do not think anybody begrudges the fact that you need money for education, but they are saying, "Find a different way. Find a different way. Get it off my property so that my property tax bill is not so astronomically high that I have to look at possibly an alternative move or move out of the area," because they enjoy the area of Southdale. They enjoy the conveniences, some of the facilities. They are lacking in schooling, as I mentioned, a big problem. The Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson) turns a blind eye to it. He will not address the situation.

That is one of the things that myself, as the elected official in the area, will keep lobbying. He knows that too. Those are some of the things that you set up in your campaign and it gets you re-elected because of the inaction of this government. In a sense, they are contributing to my re-el ection and I thank them for that. Mr. Speaker, those are some of the things that come to me. But, as I said earlier, the fact that the educational tax is still on property is a big concern to an awful lot of people in my constituency and the people there are very, very concerned about it. Mr.

Speaker, I know that there are a lot of other speakers that are wanting to speak on the Throne Speech, and it is something that everyone should have the opportunity to address because it not only gives them the opportunity to be pro or against the Throne Speech, but it is also an opportunity to address some of the things that are in their constituency out of concern, and these are some of the things that I think, as an elected official, we should address. I think we should be bringing forth in the Chamber the things that are of concern in our constituency.

We should be talking about some of the things that we should be lobbying for in our constituency and we should be, at the same time, looking for change and for how we can make these things happen in our constituency. So, Mr. Speaker, with those words, I thank you very much for having the opportunity to talk on this Throne Speech. I must point out at the same time as I wrap up that I will not be voting for this Throne Speech. I want the House to know how I am going to vote because that is a vote that I will take with pleasure in this House, against the Throne Speech. Thank you. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased today to address the amendment to the Throne Speech, the Tory amendment to the Throne Speech. I do note that the (

a) in their amendment talks about the government's failure to acknowledge the escalating debt of our province, now in excess of $20 billion, and its failure to commit to comprehensive debt reduction strategy. Yet I have heard members refer to the debt, speech after speech, all week and not one of them have recognized that we have had credit improvements. The bond rating agencies have assessed the entire picture, Manitoba's fiscal picture, and given us two improvements. Now, how could that be a problem?

Do you say that the bond rating agencies do not know what they are doing, that they do not do a proper analysis of Manitoba's ability to pay its debt? So, you know, that right there throws some water onto their arguments about the debt being out of control and the government not having a plan to pay, and I want to point out that, in fact, it is our government that has actually been putting payments toward the debt. The previous Tory government was not putting any money towards the debt.

This NDP government is the first government in history to recognize the liabilities associated with the teachers and the civil servants, and we started paying down and making deposits towards their pension plans five years ago now and paying down the debt. When I look at the Tory years, I see zero on all their years of pension assets. Do you know that in the last five years, actually six years, this government has actually put $502 million, a half a billion dollars, toward that unfunded liability?

That liability that was not recognized all the years that Gary Filmon was the Premier, all the years that Howard Pawley was the Premier, and other premiers going back many, many years. It is our government that could have kept ignoring the problem but we did not. We recognize it in the books, and we put a half a billion dollars and, you know, over 30 years, that liability will be paid down. That liability, which is at $3.4 billion, will be dissipated over a 30-year cycle and our children and grandchildren will be very happy that we recognized that.

You know, I really do not know where the Tory members are coming from on this one because, once again, they increased the de bt roughly equal to, for a six-year period of the Tory rule compared to a six- year period of the Howard Pawley rule, the debt increase was almost identical, and neither government paid down anything and, all of a sudden, six years ago we come in and we have increased the debt and we paid down some of the debt. We took care of the unfunded liabil ity that they did not pay

218 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 4, 2005 any attention to. We got two bond rating improvements. You know, you should be recognizing that and so this is a bogus statement that you are making here. You ought to amend this resolution and remove (

a) because it is false advertising on the part of the Tories. * (12:10) Now, let us just take a look at the rainy day fund. They like to talk about the rainy day fund that they set up a number of years ago. Well, back in 1996 there was $578 million in that rainy day fund, and then there was $565 and $427 and $264. Ah, in 1999, that year, think back, folks, 1999. All of a sudden the rainy day fund, which had been $578 million because of the sale of the telephone system, was dropped to $264 million. What happened in 1999 that would cause that rainy day fund to drop so drastically?

Ah, it was an election, and all of a sudden the Tories spent like crazy. They su cked that rainy day fund down to $264 million. They almost wiped it out. And did one cent go towards the debt? Did one cent, Mr. Speaker, go towards the debt? Not at all. Now, what has happened since then is that the rainy day fund has been up and it has been down over the last six years. But guess what? It is at $409 million now, and we did not have to sell the telephone system or sell off assets to hide the money, to bank the money, to get ready for an election. We got that $409 million fair and square, and we are keeping it.

But, you know, that rainy day fund could be higher.– [interjection] It could be higher, to the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), if we had not paid our $110 million toward the pension liabilities and the debt. We could have that up by another $500 million, but we do not. This is what we have in prudent management, in a prudent government. You know something? That gets me to another point. The fact of the matter is that a government that stays in touch and connects with its voters and does reasonable, sensible measur es is going to stay in power.

That is why you stayed in power for 11 years, because your government of the day paid attention to the middle ground. While we painted you out as hackers and slashers, you were spending all this money that I just showed, right? You were the opposite in reality to what you were being portrayed, but you stayed connected to the public. So now we are the government that is connected to the public.

So you are concluding that, all of a sudden, if you hijack your leader, if you throw out the leader– you postponed Thanksgiving a bit here; you are going to carve up the leader tomorrow–somehow, if you get rid of that leader, things are going to improve. Maybe if you do not have a leader at all, things are going to be better, but, you know, you have just trained this one, you have just potty trained this leader, and now you are going to throw him out. Then you have to start over with a new one. You do not even have one in mind.

This is not giving the public confidence that you are a government in waiting when you cannot even run your own caucus. When you are supposed to be doing your job, attacking us as the opposi tion, instead you are out attacking one another. This is not good. You know, I turn on the radio, and it is pretty shocking. I am scared to even go down and pick up the paper in the morning, now, or turn on the radio. I hear ghosts from the past, Jim Downey, on announcing he wants to run. An Honourable Member: Don Orchard was there. Mr. Maloway: Don Orchard showed up. He has not been here for a number of years.

But I do want to compliment CJOB and Vic Grant yesterday for running a full day of coverage on the Health Sciences Centre because, you know, this is the type of coverage that media should have been providing in the past. When we were opposition, the same thing happened, when you are in opposition, it happens. The opposition simply takes each bad example and trots it out as why the system is not working properly, tries to embarrass the government, and CJOB corrected that yesterday when they spent the entire day telling all the good things that are happening in the health care system at Health Sciences Centre.

I encourage them to move on to the education system and take a look at that system, too, right? Let us look at the positive side rather than just attack, attack, attack. I know it sells newspapers and sells advertising. Now, to liven their program up because, I guess, it was very intere sting, very informative about how all the good health care initiatives that we have in the province, but on the hour, every hour, they would cut in to give us an update on the committee, on the big Tory committee, as to who was in and who was off. Th e Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr.

Faurschou) wa s on for a while and then they dumped him. The Member for Southdale (Mr. Reimer) managed to stay on for the duration of the day, and I see today he has got his old seat back. So,

November 4, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 219 I mean, this is a really confusing puzzle to try to sort out as to what is going on over there. [interjection] I honestly do not think they really know what is going on, to be honest to the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), and he has been through his things. I mean, he is the only member in the House here who has actually won a leadership, and then they recounted it and took it away from him. How does that happen? What is that all about? So I am saying to the members, you know, keep up the good work this weekend.

We are very happy with the current leader over there, and, as far as I am concerned, he can stay for a lot longer. Of course, it is true that you are getting attention. You were not getting much press before, but you are sure getting it now, making this Throne Speech very difficult for us to get our points out there. Now, I never heard much argument either, or comment, from the members opposite about the power sale. Here we have the largest half-a-billion- dollar power sale, largest power sale in 20 years, and where are they? No comments at all. It is as if they do not want to know about it.

I think they can see the timing, too. You see, the negotiations are not going to occur till the fall of '06, I believe it is. Then, you know, when the contracts are signed, the bulldozers are going to start clearing the land for construction of the power dam in and about the early part of 2007. I think that has got them all spooked. I think that has got them all scared and they want to pretend that that is not so. But the fact of the matter is that, while it has been 20 years in the making, this is a fantastic story for the province of Manitoba.

The Manitoba economy is going to benefit tremendously by this power sale. If we can get that dam built and if we can get further power sales signed, which will lead to an east-west corridor, we are seeing a time in the future when we can be called a have-province and take another argument away from the Tories who like to run us down by referring to us as a have-not province. That does not help anybody by making statements like that. But where is the support? Where is the support for the Hydro projects, the Hydro sales? Why are the Tories not standing up and applauding the government for these measures, Mr.

Speaker? The wind farms are another good example of job creation in the south of Manitoba, in Tory ridings–in Tory ridings. We developed 99 megawatts of power in a wind farm in St. Leon. Do I hear the Conservatives standing up and saying how good a project that is? [interjection] Well, yes, the Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan) because it is in his riding. But I do not hear the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen) up talking about the wind farms that may be developed right in his area. But that is a developing area that we have to put a lot more attention to.

I think that there is at least a half dozen more good projects that can be developed in the wind power area, and all of these projects are projects that you have to do while the economy is good. We are not going to wait for a recession which has got to come. I am sure they are over there praying for a recession. I look at the great economic stats that come out, and the Conservative lines on these things are always negative. I mean, what exactly do they want? We show that we have practically the lowest unemployment rate in the country, or second lowest, and they do not like it. They thrive on bad news.

The "Bad News Bears" over there. The good news they shrink away from. You know, if it is bad, it is good, and the good news, they shrink away from. * (12:20) In my limited amount of time left, I would like to deal with some of the members over there and their statements regarding debt. I can tell you that so far only the Member for Em erson (Mr. Penner) has actually made sense in his arguments to the extent that he has asked for a bridge to be built. I think it is going to be $20 million, something like that. He has asked for the bridge.

But, at least, in the member's case, he recommends an increase in the sales tax to pay for it. Every election that we ran in an opposition, our leader insisted on having every promise costed out. An Honourable Member: No way. Mr.

Maloway: Yes, every promise was costed out, so when the press asked him, "How much is that going to cost?" he said $15 million or $20 million, or whatever it was, and that is what the member from Devils Lake, Emerson has shown some responsibility here, because he said, "Build me the bridge, and I propose that all the Manitoba taxpayers should have an increase in their sales taxes." Very good thinking on his part. I think he is going to be the winner out of this one. But let us look at some of those other

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-4-7
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 4th hansardpdf 7.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d1c79b7a886e206862fc3533651de1d1b265ca60

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