MG-8048 Four th Session -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 19 -1: 30 p.m., THURSDAY, MARCH 4, 19 93 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affilia tion NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRI EDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDL AY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GIL LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HIC KES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPI NE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUF ELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER. Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK , Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STO RIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODRE Y, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Hei ghts Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Ain Ron La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

765 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, March 4, 19 93 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRE SENTING PETITIONS Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Conrad Hykawy, 0. Carlsen, Don McDonald and others, requesting the Minis ter responsible fo r MPIC (Mr. Cumm ings) consider implemen ting no-fault auto insurance, capping insurance commissions and bringing other recommendations of the Kopstein report that the government has delayed acting on. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House, and it complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? To the Legislature of the province of Manitoba The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the federal Government has brought in a new program called the Child Tax Benefit which takes effect in January 19 93; and

WHEREAS social assis tance programs are already well below the poverty line and any reductions will cause further hardship; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has still not decided whether to count the Child Tax Benefit; and

WHEREAS Family Allowance payme nts were exempt in Manitoba from social assistance; and

WHEREAS other provinces have already said that they will not tax this benefit.

WHEREAS the new Federal Child Tax Benefit, while it will not reduce poverty, will provide some badly needed money for low income Manitobans. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minis ter of Family Services to consider exempting the Child Tax Benefit from provincial income support programs. *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House, and it complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? To the Legislature of the province of Manitoba

WHEREAS eac h year smoke from stu bble burning descends upon the province of Manitoba; and

WHEREAS the Parents Suppor t Group of Children with Asthma has long criticized the harmful effects of stubble burning; and

WHEREAS the smoke cau sed from stubble burning is not healthy for the general public and tends to aggravate the problems of asthma sufferers and people with chronic lung problems; and

WHEREAS alternative practices to stu bble burning are necessitated by the fact that the smoke can place some people in life-thr eatening situations; and WHERE AS the 19 87 Clean Environ ment Comm ission Re port on Pu blic Hea rings, "Investigation of Smoke Problems from Agriculture Crop Residue and Peatland Burning," contained the recommendation that a review of the crop residue burning situation be conducted in five years' tim e, including a re-exami nation of the necessity for legislated regulatory control.

THEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly will urge the government of Mani toba to pass the neces sary legislation/regulations which will restrict stubble burning in the province of Manitoba. As in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray. *** I also have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House, and it complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

766 LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93

WHEREAS the provincial government has not implem ented the major recommendation of the Kopstein report which was to bring in no-f ault auto insu rance; and

WHEREAS over four years ago, the Kopstein report found that if Manitoba adopted no-fault auto insurance it could have saved $40 million; and

WHEREAS over two years ago, a second government report found that over $63 million could be saved if Manitoba adopted the Quebec plan of no-fault auto insurance; and

WHEREAS the provincial cabinet this year after being extensively lobbied, rejected a business plan capping insurance commissions that would have saved Manitoba motorists a further $2 million; and

WHEREAS the rates for auto insurance are now being raised on average by 9.5 percent to 14 .5 percent when the inflation is less than 1. 3 percent, making this the highest actual increase in the history of this province; and

WHEREAS one in five car drivers in this province will now face increases of 13 .5 percent; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has not imp lemented other aspects ofthe impleme ntation of the Kopstein report. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minis ter responsible for MPIC (Mr. Cummin gs) to consider implemen ting no-fa ul t aut o insur an ce , capping insu rance commissions, and bring in other recommendations of the Kopstein report that the government has delayed acting on. * (1 335) PRE SENTING REP ORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr.

Jack Reimer (Chairperson of the Standing Co mmittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Rrst Report of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): To the honourable Legislative Assembly of Manitoba: Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources presented the following as its first report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, March 2, 19 93, at 7:30 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Annual Report of the Manit oba Energy Authority for the year ended March 31 , 1 992, together with the Rnancial Statements for the 15 months ended June 30, 19 92. Mr. Robert Brennan, President and Chief Executive Officer, Manitoba Hydro, provided such information as was requested with respect to the Annual Report and busines s of the Manitoba Energy Authority.

Your com mittee has considered the Annual Report of the Manitoba Energy Authority for the year ended March 31 , 19 92, together with the Financial Statements for the 15 months ended June 30, 1 992, and has adopted the same as presented. Mr. Relmer: Mr. Speaker,! move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABUNG OF REPO RTS Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report 19 92 for the Municipal Board. Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report 19 91 -92 for the Seniors Di rectorate. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table two annual reports, one for the Mini stry of Health and the second for the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba. House Business Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would ask leave of the House, on behalf of the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey), that she might revert back to Mini sterial Statements after Question Period. There is a report being prepared on a major issue that she would like to report on at that time.

Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to allow the honourable Minister of Education and Training to revert to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports after Question Period? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): I am not quite prepared to give conditional leave not knowing what it is. We would be prepared to give leave-

March 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 767 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Just for a ministerial statement. Is there leave? [agreed] Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from the Ste. Agathe School, ten Grade 9 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Robert Constable. This school is located in the consti tuency of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) . Also this afternoon, we have from the Maples Collegiate, 30 English Language students.

They are under the direction of Mr. Murray Goldenberg. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you all here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Immigrant Investor Fund Aud its Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Premier.

On December 16, 19 92, in the House, on questions raised on the Immigrant Investor Fund, the Premi er said that the funds proposals are reviewed by the department as to the job creation benefits for the Manitoban economy, and based on that recommendation, a recommendation is made to Ottawa. In the consultant's report which was released by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism on December 30, 19 92, the report found: Our review has indi cated a general lack of hard economic analysis docume ntation on specific investment proposals outside of the information provided by the promoters themselves.

This completely contradicts the allegation made in this House by the Premier. I would lik e to ask the Premi er: Has his government received the specific audits on the specific fu nds that were cont racted by the government in their announcement in the new year? * (1 340) Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, in terms of the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition that there is an inconsistency, he is absolutely incorrect. In terms of any inconsistency, that is the role and responsibility of Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism officials to do the economic review.

The suggestion of the audi tor was that in some instances it did not go far enough. We have now implem ented a policy whereby there will also, in conjunction with the internal review, be an indepe ndent review on any appl ications that come forward. In terms of the specific individual aud its of five separate funds that are being done by Deloitte & Touche, one is complete, four are pending, and when we receive all five audits, we will be making the necessary public statement at that time and dealing with the issue. Immigrant Investor Fund Audits Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I would point out to the mi nister that the report clearly said that the economic analysis was done by the promoters. In other words, Bob Kozminski and Jack Levit were doing the economic analysis, not the Premier's department in Industry, Trade and Tourism. That is right in the report on page 16 , a point not highlighted in the minister's press release shortly after he received the report. Mr. Speaker, we have received a copy of a letter indicating that not only financial audits are taking place in the five funds under the Imm igrant Investor Fund, but also legal audi ts are taking place.

I would like to ask the Premier: Since he is copied on this letter from one Mike Bessey, what type of legal investigations are being conducted by the Province of Manitoba, and who presently is doing the legal audit? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I would expect that the Leader of the Opposition would be complimenting us on being as thorough and as complete as possib le, not only doing a financial audit but also a legal audit.

It would seem to me that if you were interested in attempting to ensure that we get all the facts and all the information so that we can indeed judge based on actual evidence, not innuendo and not political muckraking, we would get all the information. That is what we are doing as a responsible government. That information then will be part of the background that will lead to the thorough and very, very comprehensive review that the Minis ter of Indus try, Trade and Tourism will be able to then share with

768 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 the federal government and with all of the parties involved. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speak er, with the greatest of respect, I wrote the Premier in March 19 91 on the Imm igrant Investor Fund, and perhaps if he would have ini tiated the investigation at that point until a later point when it became an issue in the public media, perhaps we would be a year and a half ahead of where we are today in terms of the investments that are being made and reputation of Manitoba in terms of those investme nts with the careless attitude of the Premier's departments in terms of dealing with the proposals as ind icated in the Crewson report. The Premier never answered the question. Who is doing the legal audit?

We have a copy of an un tendered contr act for some $50,000 which specifies $50,000 to go to Deloitte & Touche for legal counsel. We were aware that one Richard Shead was the former lawyer hired involved with this audi t, but we note from Michael Bessey's memo, copied to the Premier, that a lawyer named D'Arcy McCaffrey is copied on the letter. I would just like to ask the Premier: Is the former legal counsel dealing with this issue of a legal audit? Is he still dealing with it, or has the government had to hire new legal lawyers?

Who got the $50,000 that was untendered in the proposal that was released a couple of weeks ago? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Sp eaker, I might indi cate that the allegations that the member made in his letter of 19 91 were totally unsu bstantiated, did not address the issues that currently are under audit. They were just simply a cheap political ploy by the member to try and name some people whom he thought were associated with our party and imply that there were some things that were wrong with the fund because of that.

As usual, he was up a blind alley and did not provide us with anything that was relevant to the issues that are being investigated today. Mr. Speaker, I believe that the information that the member has put forward is correct, although I will double check it, that the lawyer who is acting in this particular instance as counsel to the investigation is indeed D'Arcy McCaffrey. Untender ed Contracts Fleet Vehicle Maintenance Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Government Services.

We are seein g inc reasin g evidence of the government bypassing the Provincial Auditor in contracting out auditing work to private firms. In fact, earlier today in the Public Accounts committee it was revealed that the Mini ster of Government Services has given out a contract for auditing fleet vehicles. Would the mi nister at this time table that contract in the House and tell Manitobans who will be doing the work? • ( 1 345) Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, this government more than any other government, did not have a list lik e the previous government dealing with government services. When we took office, that par ticular governmen t, when they were in government over there, had a list of many, many consultants whom they would only use. This new audit just approved by the SOA, there were six or seven proposals. I do not have all of them at my fingertips, but I will get the successful one for the member for the next sitting. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, would the minister release the criteria that were used to select the firm? Mr. Ducharme: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, we have a list of people who are out there in the private sector. pnterjection] They are in the phone book. There is a list of them. First of all, there are people who come forward to the government, unlike the previous adminis tration, who asked if they could participate in the audit. They go through a process; there is a grading of au dit s that rec ommend s that aud itor to that particular project. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Speaker, the mini ster appears to be hiding this contract, and I would like to see some immedia te action here and have the mini ster table a copy of that contract and the criteria that went into his making that decisio n. Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, the whole process of going through hiring auditors is a process that has been in practice for many, many years. People come forward and approach the government to participate. There is a grading

schedule that is used to appoint those auditors.

March 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 769 Untendered Contracts Independent Aud its Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, the Liquo r Co ntrol Comm ission, the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba, the Fleet Vehicles Branch, the Manitoba Lotteries no longer are going to be audited by the Provincial Auditor because this government is starting to contract out government agencies that were held accountable in the Public Accounts.

My question to the Minister of Finance is: Why has the government decided to contract out auditing responsibilities when the Provincial Auditor is quite able to provide this service and to ensure that as legislators we have a way in which we can put questions to the Provincial Auditor? We do not have the right to put the questions directly to these independent audits that the government is tending them to. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I find it strange the member asked that que sti on. He asked it three times in Pu blic Accounts committee. He got a full response at that time.

As I said to him then, and I will say to you now and indeed to all the members of the House, the legislation that provides boards an opportunity to select, by way of some procedure, an auditor, either the Provincial Auditor or outside public sector audit ors is permissive. It is the law of the land. This Legislature has told Manitoba Hydro that it can engage the services of accountants, either with the Provincial Auditor's department or indeed outside accounting agencies. That is the law of the land.

That indeed we have said to our boards and commissions to the extent that they set up a criteria to do so, that they bring forward, that they make publ ic that criteria. The Crown Corporations Council has laid out that criteria, Mr. Speaker. There is a process in place. We are following that process. Accountability Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, the government is contracting out. The Alcoholism Foundation and the Fleet Vehicles Branch are both agencies now that the board has selected from the minister, and they have been instructed obviously to set tender.

The question is why are they doing that, becaus e we do not have the opportun ity as legislators in order to ask him specifi cally. My qu estion to the min ister is: Why is the government moving to take accountability away from this Legislature? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, there are no dictates. The only dictate is the laws of the province, legislatively set into place by actions of this House, which said that boards and commis sions can choose between the Provincial Auditor or outside agencies, so it is the law of the land. I say to him, as I said to him this morning, Mr.

Speaker, that the Provincial Auditor ultimately has an overview opportunity on all agencies and entities of government and is given the responsibili ty to report to this House if they find any wrongdoings with respect to any activities within any Crowns or any agencies or any entities of government and to report same to this House. * (1 350) Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Finance tell us why it is that he is downsizing the Provincial Audi tor's offi ce?

There has been a reduction in the resources allocated out to the Provincial Auditor's office, while at the same time we are seeing a government-and it is the government that is giving the direction to these agencies, because they are the ones that are appointing the boards and taking the responsibility away from this Legislature in order to hold them accountable for the public of Manitoba. Mr. Manness: What hypocrisy, Mr. Speaker.

That member sits on LAMC committee with us, and he was fully aware and part of the decision team that made the decision to allow the Provincial Auditor to spend fewer resources this year, because that is the approach. What hypocrisy. He was part of the decision. He sits in on LAMC. He should apologize fully to the House. Point of Order Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Finance- Mr. Speaker: On a point of order? Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, on a point of order-to withdraw the comment of being a hypocrite. Let me tell you why. Because in LAMC, I did not supp ort the Provincial Auditor.

I was the only one out of the all-party committee that commented on it.

770 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA March 4, 19 93 If the Minister of Finance wants to talk about what happens at LAMC, I am qui te prepared, with his- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): think that the Government House Leader (Mr. Manness) has gone far too far, and I do believe the use of the term "hypocrisy," particularly in this context, is bordering on the unparliamentary. I think it is particularly unwise of the Government House Leader in this particular case because, having sat on LAMC and having known the discus sions took place, there is no way, Mr.

Speaker, that the Government House Leader can, in any way, shape or form, indicate that LAMC, which has control strictly over internal budgets and even then subject to the final decision of the government, can be held accountable for this change in policy direction by the government in terms of the use of outside auditors. So in using that term "hypocrisy," it is not the member who is being hypocritical, and I use this in the nonunparliamentary sense, it is the Government House Leader. I would ask him to withdraw the charge made against the member that is patently false. Hon.

Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, the member in his question said that the government has forced this activity away from the Provincial Auditor. Mr. Speaker, ali i made mention of was the fact that the Provincial Auditor came before us and said and requested that they not re-use all the resources that they had been provided. Furthe rmore, the Provincial Auditor fully acknowledged today that they indeed were successful in having the Arts Council tender, and we are glad to have it so. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux), in regards to the word I believe he used, "hypocrisy," Beauchesne's 490 says: "Since 19 58, it has been ruled parliamentary .. ." and the word "hypocrisy" does show up on the li st as parliame ntary. Therefore, the honourable member does not have a point of order. • (1 35!1) Winn ipeg School for the Deaf Diagnostic Centre Mr. John Plohman (Dauph in): Mr.

Speaker, despe rate parents who have absolutely no place to turn for help with their severely learning disabled children have looked with hope to the diag nostic centre, which is housed at the Winnipeg School for the Deaf, as the only facil ity of its kind with residential services for severely disabled children, for hope and for help. I want to ask the Minister of Education (Mrs.

Vodrey) today how she can explain the actions that she has taken with regard to this diag nostic centre, the only kind, as I have said, in Manitoba, how she can explain that action there, how she can explain her reform ini tiatives in this area to the House today. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Again the concerns of parents and also the benefits to children in this province are of great concem to this government and to myself as minis ter, and therefore, we wanted to make sure that any changes were going to be su pported by services within communities.

Our diagnostic learning centre from that centre has, at the moment, approximately 25 to 30 children a year, not a large number. The numbers have decreased because divisions themselves have take n on this particular service and are now providing it at the child's home school division. The im portance of that, Mr. Speaker, is the child does not have to leave his or her own home and come into a centre in Winnipeg but instead can be provided the remediation in their home division. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, that is utter garbage. The many small school divisions just do not have these services.

I want to ask this mini ster how she can explain shutting down this service and laying off the nine staff there who have worked with these children, and how she came to that decision. Did she consult with the parents of those kids who are involved? Did she consult with the school officials who referred them, with the teachers, with other people who work with these children? Did she consult with them prior to this decision? Mrs. Vodrey: First of all, the number is not nine.

Let me remind the member that as I said yesterday, our department is maintaining the services of two speci alists to assist across the province in very specialized areas, in the areas that relate to the

Ma rch 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A 771 emotionally and behaviourally disordered children, which has been an area of great concern across this province. Our department is taking the leadership to make sure that there is development and expertise available in that particular area; however, Mr. Speaker, among divisions, there is now currently expertise to assist children and to assist children in their home schools or, at a minimum, in their home division. That has been offi cial because it does not remove children from their home division, from their friends and from their family lives. Mr.

Plohman: Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. In the small school divisions, these services are just not available. I want to ask this minister to be truthful with this House and explain to this House. Point of Order Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the member for Dauphin has crossed the line significantly when he says he wants the mi nister to be truthful because, of course, what he is not saying is that the mini ster has been untruthful. I say to the member that he has to withdraw that statement. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it is obvious there is a major disagreement over the facts. Very clearly, our Education critic does not accept the answer of the minister. That is not a point of order. In terms of being truthful, if one looks at the specific references in Beauchesne, to suggest that a member be truth ful, my sugges tion would not be unparliamentary. Obviously, all members have to be truthful. I think the concern of the member is over the fact that the minister obviously does not know what is happening out in many small school districts. That, however, is a dis pute over the facts and is not unparliamentary. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader on the comments raised by the honourable member for Dauphin about the honourable mini ster not telling the truth, not telling the truth appears on both lists, unparliamentary and parliamentary. I would just caution the honourable member for Dauphin, for the watching public here, the example we are setting to everybody, the young kids watching in the Chamber the proceedings, pick your words very, very carefully. *** *

(1400) Mr. Plohman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for those words of advice. I want to just say in my last question to the minister that she knows very well those services are not available throughout this province. They are not available to vulnerable kids. She knows that. What hope can she offe r those kids now that she has cut that only service? Mrs. Vodrey: The hope that I offer to Manitobans, that this government offers to Manitobans, is, first of all, that there is expertise available. It has been developed over a period of many years.

In addition, this government, in an effort to support children with special needs, has increased the special needs grants, the money available to support those children. In additi on, Mr. Speaker, in this year's funding formula, we have done what we said we would do. We have modified the formula to increase the Level II and Level Ill grants. So we are providing the services in the field, in the place where those children and where their families live so that they do not have to be removed from their homes and so that they can receive expertise in their own home division.

Planning and Innovation Branch Elimina tion Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, in the 19 90 election, we saw the Premier campaign from a canoe with green promises. Then in the 19 90-91 annual report from the Department of Environment, the Planning and Innovation branch had the responsibili ty for the WRAP program, to reduce waste and achieve the target of 50 percent reduction of waste. That report said that they would actively promote environmental protection and sustainable development. The next year the annual report had elim inated this, and the government is now cutting this branch.

My question is for the mi nister responsible for Environment. What stage is this government at in attaini ng the 50 percent target, and how is elimin ating this branch responsible for that function going to aid in reaching the target of 50 percent reduction of waste? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, we are well on our way towards

772 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 achieving 50 percent reduction by the year 2000, and the member should not imply in any way that the work that this branch has been carrying on will not proceed. It in fact will be operationalized within the other sections of the department, and the work will continue. Ms. Cerllll : Mr. Speaker, it seems to many people that this government is giving up on waste reduction, recycling.

Has the change in the staffi ng of this department redeployed these personnel to the Department of Natural Resources, where we have a mi nister who has said that they do not have to wait for an environmental impact assessment to decide if they are going to sup port a project? Mr. Cu mmings: Mr. Speaker, The Ozone Depl et ing Su bs tances Act is no w be in g oper at ionalized. The beve rage cont ainer regulations are now being ope rationalized within the department. Administration of tire recycling is now about to be operationalized within the department.

All recycling is taking place on an increasing scale across this province. Newspaper recycling is growing across this province. The member simply does not understand that reorganization does not mean that the fu nction will not continue. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, I would like the minister to tell the House, given that the throne speech mentioned the im portance of innovation 11 times, how will the minister ensure that policy and planning on environment issues is going to happen, and who will be performing this func tion for this government. Mr.

Cummings: We have a large number of personnel within this de partm ent who pride themselves on their abilities, their capabilities in dealing with priorities and bringing forward policies that we will act upon as a government in order to enhance and protect the environment in this province. I want to assure you, Mr. Speaker, that the operationalization of the recycling programs in this province will mean that they will be part of the day-to-day operations and will simply be added to the fu nction within the department. Program Development Support Services Consultations Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday in this House we heard from the Minister of Education that the province is laying off numerous speech and hearing clinicians from the Sup port Services branch. Can the Mini ster of Education tell us, did she consult with any of the school boards, particularly the ones in rural and northern Manitoba before the decision was made, or was it made behind closed doors? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): We have ongoing discussions on a regular basis with school divisions across this province to make sure that we are aware of their needs. On this particular decision, Mr.

Speaker, I can tell you that we have had phone calls into our office today from divisions who have said, please let us mo ve ahea d with it, because what the honourable member has not unde rstood, and I explained yesterday, is that the change in clinician services-there is a formula within our school funding formula which determines the numbers of clinicians available.

What we have found out is, yes, 52 clinicians were employed by the department, but in fact the formula, when applied to school divis ions, will probably result in more clinicians, 59.5 clinicians, being available to Manitobans, to those rural areas, so the whole issue and question of concerns of less service and not as much service are, according to the formula, not accurate. School Divisions Clinician Funding Ms.

Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Can the minister tell us why she is sendin g out contradictory messages to school divisio ns by saying on the one hand they will have more control over hiring decisions, yet on the other hand, their autonomy and control on funding issues is rescinded? Why a contradictory message? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Certainly in the matter of clinic ian hiring, school divisions will have the discretion. In the matters relating to the funding announcement, Mr.

Speaker, those were, No. 1, an effort to make sure the taxpayers of Manitoba were protected, and in order to protect the taxpayers of Manitoba, we did offer to the school divisions the tools that we believe would be helpful for them to make sure that the costs were kept within a reasonable limit. Ms. Gray: Wrth a final supplemen tary-at least I have some solace in knowing that most people involved in education in Manitoba have yet to unde rstand answers from this minister as well, because the calls keep coming in-

March 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANIT OBA 773 Mr. Speaker: Your question. Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us, if some school divisions decide not to hire clinicians for a variety of reasons, can the mini ster guarantee that these services will still be provided for children across Manitoba? Can she guarantee that? Ms. Vodrey: The funds are to hire clinicians, and therefore, we have every reason to believe that school divisions that do value this service and who will, I am very sure, want to continue the support for their special needs students within their divisions will in fact be hiring clinicians.

Some divisions may decide to come together with a regional plan. They may decide an individual school division plan is not the most sui table and a regional plan would be more efficient and meet their needs, so we expect them, Mr. Speaker, to be able to have that abil ity to make those decisions, and they do in this case. Health Care System Reform APM Consu ltants Contr act Mr. Dave Chomlak (KII donan): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

How can the First Minister permit his Health minister to close beds, lay off nurses, 13 in Ham iota a couple of weeks ago, 21 at Health Sciences Centre and more to come, while at the same time, he allowed his Health mi nister to fly in six U.S. consult ants yesterday to negotiate the Connie Curran contract? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend needs to understand a couple of things. The Minis ter of Health, the government of Manitoba, does not lay off any nurses in any health care facility.

Now, if my honourable friend is suggesting that is how a New Democratic government would manage health care, then that is quite a different change. Mr. Speaker, management decisions within the health care system are made by boards and admin istration of the respective facilities, based on funding guidelines that are provided by government. That is a situation that has existed for many, many years. Mr. Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend, let me deal with the issue of, for instance, layoffs at Health Sciences Centre, which he referred to.

Is my honourable friend willing to also discuss the other side of that coin and talk about the hiring of many nurses at Concordia Hospital for the 60 beds that were opened there, the hiring of nurses at Deer Lodge and Municipal Hospital to accommodate those patients who were shifted from the Health Sciences Centre? Of course not, because that- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. * (1 410 ) Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry the mini ster contradicted his own di rector of Health Reform, who said the mi nister is responsible for all bed cuts and makes all decisions. Will the minister answer the question?

Will the taxpayers of Manitoba be responsible for flying in the six U.S. consultants yesterday to come in to negotiate the Connie Curran contract? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, as I indic ated to my honourable friend when he brought this issue up in collaboration with my former critic, if and when we conclude a contract for consulting services, we will ma ke the terms of tha t co ntract open for exami nation for understanding. If my honourable friend wishes a clarification, my honourable friend might want to understand that both St.

Boniface and Health Sciences Centre have been urging this government to engage this particular consulting group because , Sir, they are simply the best available for the kind of restructuring that we need to do in Manitoba. When and if we conclude the terms which are of benefit to the health care system in Manitoba and the taxpayers of Manitoba, I will be free to discuss and openly discuss all those issues with my honourable friend. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, he thinks he has a plan. Mr.

Speaker, my final supplemen tary to the mini ster is: In addition to the $5,500 paid Connie Curran to fly in within the last sixty days to negotiate her own contract, can the mi nister confirm whether or not the contract, if it is up to $6 million, will be paid in Canadian or U.S. dollars, because if it is $6 million and it is paid in U.S. dollars, it will cost $7.2 million by today's dollar value? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, as I have indic ated to my honourable friend, if and when we conclude any discussions around the issuing of a consulting contract on behalf of the health care system of Manitoba, St.

Boniface and Health Sciences Centre, all of those details will be available.

774 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 I want to indicate to my honourable friend that maybe he ought to just ask a few questions of, for instance, the senior management within Health Scie nces Centre and within St. Boniface Hospital to find out, Sir, whether indeed they believe that this would be of benefit to health service delivery in Manitoba before my honourable friend gets on the TV. Red River Commun ity College Course Cancellations Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

Will the mini ster confirm that she has cut three courses at Red River Commu nity College, that she suspended refrigeration and that she has made cuts to entire sections of indus trial electronics and telecommunications? Will she confirm that these cuts were made 24 hours before the first class was due to begin, resulting in great hardship and di slocation for many of the students? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, there has been a cancel lation of some cour ses at Red River Commu nity College. There have been four, and it has been with regret that those have been cancelled.

However, in the cancellation, first of all, the students registered will receive a refund. They will also be put on a waiting list to accommodate them, and in addition, ju st so that you are absolutely clear, no mone y was lost. In additi on, those students will be met with, and they will receive counselling for any other institution from which they can study that particular course. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, the mini ster talks about refunds. These people gave up jobs to go to those courses. Mr. Speaker: Order, plea se. The honourable member for Wolseley, with her question. Ms.

Friesen: Will the mi nister explain how the elimin ation of these particular training opportunities fits with her alternating rhetoric of cuts today and commitment tomorrow? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, again the member needs to be very clear about where some of the funding for these particular programs comes from. They were funded through Canada Employment and Immig ration. We have had some difficu lty with the fedPral government in terms of funds. Those particular courses received assistance from the federal government. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister explain then how these lost opportu nities in teleco mmu nication, refrigeration and indus trial electronics further the economic competitiveness of Manitobans as they enter the next century, the usual rhetoric of this minister? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is im portant to remind the member that in terms of decision making for courses, particularly courses which we as a province have control over the funding, we do take into consideration the number of students who wish to attend the program, the evaluation ofthe program following the program and the number of jobs that stude nts are able to obtain following, and also the labour market demand for each of the courses. Provincial Auditor Independent Audit Costs Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance.

The Minister of Finance, a few minutes ago, lobbed across the House a remark about a calculator and perhaps the need of a calculator. Well, we would like to know how finely tuned the Mi nister of Finance's calculator is, since there seems to be a variety of cost-cutti ng measures going on in a number of government departments. Let us begin with the auditors. Can the minister give us a finit e figure on how much money will be saved by this government for monies that will not be paid to the Provincial Auditor but will be paid for outside audits? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I cannot give that answer, because that analysis does not exist. Mr. Speaker, let it be known that boards of these outside agencies are the ones who ultima tely make decisions around audit matters. They are in charge of that responsibili ty by legislation passed in this House. That has been the way since the beginning of time in this province. Nothing has changed. If the member has some indic ation, if she has some valid proof that it is going to cost our outside agencies more by way of providing for themselves outside contracting services with the outside

March 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 775 auditors as compared to the Provincial Auditor, then she will have to do that analysis. Planning and Innovation Branch Cost Savings Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the legi slatio n is permissive. It is not directive. Since we cannot get an answer with regard to auditing from the Minister of Finance, will the Minister of Environment tell us just how much cost saving he anticipates as a result to the cut in the br anch on plann ing and in nova tions in the Department of Environment? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, there are considerable dollar savings. I also would indicate that there are a number of decisions on both sides of the ledger that are made during the Estimates process, and they will become evident during the tabling of the budget Program Development Support Services Cost Savings Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is very clear they are making decisions and they do not know what the cost savings are going to be.

Can the Minister of Education, since she has obviously cut diagnostic services which are going to be a real loss in terms of benefit to youngsters, tell us what her cost savings are going to be in this branch's cuts? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training}: Mr. Speaker, again, ( would just like to assure Manitobans that there is expertise in the field, which has been developed. This should not be an opportunity to frighten Manitobans and to scare them, because there is expertise within the field now.

We will continue to provide specific leadership in the area of emotionally, behaviourally disordered young people and very severely learning disabled young people. In terms of the amount of money, Mr. Speaker, the member will simply have to wait until the budget is tabled. Transcona-Sprlngfleld School Division Funding Formula Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, during recent meetings of the Transcona-Springfield School Division, trustees informed the residents of Transcona that the province was cutting back in support by nearly 3 percent for the division.

Trustees were unanimous in their condemnation of this unfair funding formula. Since the division No. 12 has essentially no reserve funds to draw from while the 2 percent cap gives the Transcona-Springfield School Division only one-half of the amount per pupil that the Fort Garry School Division will receive, can the Minister of Education explain how this formula is fair to the residents and the school division of Transcona-Springfield School Division? •

(1420) Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, again, our funding formula is one that is a very complicated formula. It also depends on the number of students who are curre ntly enrolled, and it also depends on the average teacher's salary in each division. So I will have to look very specifically at the numbers from Transco na-Sp ringfield School Division. They have not sent them in to me yet. The numbers across school divisions in Manitoba are, at the moment, very fluid as divisions work out exactly what their costs will be. In addition, Mr.

Speaker, Transcona-Springfield School Division has the same options as all other employers do and as were stated, as we as a government do, that they may wish to talk to their employees about some form of workweek reductions. Mr. Reid: My supplementary for the same minister, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister of Education explain why she has ignored at least two written requests by the Transcona-Springfield trustees to have the Minister of Edu cation calculate the fundin g support acknowledging that the division is comprised of one-third rural? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, again, within that school division, our department has made every effort to assist the Transcona-Springfield School Division, as we have made an effort to assist all divisions across this province. The staff of the Department of Education have gone out to visit with

776 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 the school divisions. They have sat and gone through the formula with the school divisions, and they remain available for any assistance that the school division, Transcona-Springfield in specific, may require as they go about setting their budget. Meeting Request Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcon a): My final supplemen tary, Mr. Speaker, to the same minister. Can the minister explain why she has for many months now ignored the written request by the Transcona-Springfield trustees for a meeting?

Will this minister agree to immediately meet with the trustees of the Transcona-Springfield School Division? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I have not denied meetings to any school division within this province. I fairly recently have met with a group of parents representing Transcona-S pringfield School Division and looked at their particular issues. If Transcona-Springfield School Division would like to have a meeting, I am more than happy. They only have to make the app roach through my appointment secretary. Mr.

Speaker, I have not turned down school divisions for meetings, so I think that is inaccurate. Red River Community Col lege Course Cancel lations Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I want to have a follow- up question, because I asked a question yesterday of the mi nister, and I am going to seek some assurances. We had an individual who registered for a course, quit a job because he was told he was going to be starting the course in March, and now the course has been cancelled at least until September. What is she going to do for the individuals who are put in that type of a situation? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, yes. I am aware of the individual whom the member has spoken about today. He raised the issue yesterday, and I did make sure that I had the opportunity to find out about any affected individuals. In this individuals's case, we will make sure that person knows full well where this course is offered in alternate to Red River Commu nity College, because the person obviously wishes to take

part in the course or, alternatively, we are prepared to prepare a waiting list and look at whether or not we are able to continue offering this course. Gag Order Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell me why, when I called Red River College this morning, that I am told that if I have any questions about cuts in courses, I have to talk to the president of the Red River College; then when I called to speak to the president of Red River College, there is no one around?

Has the minister invoked a gag order so that MLAs can no longer get any sort of information so that they can pass the information down onto their constituents? What type of- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, certainly information is available, but I would like to assure the member that for any individual who has been affected by the cancellation of these courses, each one of those individuals has been contacted by the college, and they are fully aware of any changes. Mr.

Lamoureux: If in fact everything is in order, will the Mini ster of Education instruct to pull the gag order so that people in admissions and registration are allowed to tell those who want to know what courses are being cancelled? Will she at the very least instructthe president and the Red River College to do that? Mrs. Vodrey: There have been identified in this House four courses which have been cancelled for the March 1 start. Those four courses again were partly supported by direct purchase of the Canada Employmen t and Immi gration, and we have had reductions in that area. So, Mr.

Speaker, that deals with those four. I want to assure the member again that individuals who have applied have in fact been inf ormed. In addition, in any other course changes, they will be made known with the budget. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. House Business Mr. Speaker: Prior to recognizing the honourable member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), I would ask, would there be leave of the House-l had

March 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 777 previously sent a letter to all honourable members requesting that we adjourn tomorrow at twelve o'clock in order to facil itate the setting up of the Cham ber for the swearing in of our new Lieutenant-Gove rnor. I have been advised this morning by staff that will be extremely difficult, so now I am asking for leave of the House to adjourn the House tomorrow at 11: 30. Some Honourable Members: Let us do it after Question Period. Mr. Speaker: Okay, let us do it this way.

Is there leave of the House then to adjourn the House right after Ques tion Pe riod, and then we can all reconvene in here at 1 :30 tomorrow? Is there leave? [agreed) I would like to thank all honourable members. Nonpolitical Statement Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Could I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honou rable member for River Heights have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, this is very brief, but I know that all members of the House would be delighted that the birth of a child took place today to one of our members. Paul Edwards' wife, Anne MacKay, gave birth to a son this morning, 9 pounds, 4 ounces. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed, we are reverting to Mini sterial Statements and Tabling of Reports. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): I appreciate the leave to deliver my nonpolitical statement. The contents will become evident. The issue of translation was the important one. I am sorry.

I rise to welcome the Supreme Court's decision rendered today in the area of Francophone school's gove rnance. As we expec ted, the decision confirms the

interpretation of the Charter,

Section 23, previously given by the Mahe decision. That is, that where numbers warrant, the lingu istic minority has the right to manage and direct their schools. The decision today notes that because of the numbers of children whose parents have

Section 23 rights in Manitoba, in some areas at least, an indepe ndent school board is required, chosen by members of the linguis tic mi nority. Today's decision reiterates that governments have a wide discretion in selecting the means by which obl igations concerning

Section 23 governance rights are to be met. We have great respect for the cou rt's right to in terpret the Constitution and to judge our actions. We are pleased that the court today has again reiterated its respect for the policy-making role of legislators. The government of Man itoba main tai ns its com mi tment to establish a system of school governance as required by the Charter,

Section 23. As Chief Justice Lamer noted in today's decision, the government of Manitoba has already accepted as appropria te the establishmen t of a singl e Francophone school board to be responsible for Francophone education in the province, with the proviso that the Francophone parents may choose to keep their children in existing Frangais or French language first programs. That decision was announced by our government last year. We have great confidence in the Manitoba government's policy. Work on legislation has been proceeding and I look forward to tabling the bill this session.

I am encouraged that the court was not willing to detail the particulars of how governance should be implem ented before the Legislature had a chance to consider the issue and to enact legislation. The Francophone school board will have exclusive management and control of the edu cation programs in schools in its division. The school board will be run by representatives chosen by Se ction 23 rights holder s. Our go vernmen t believes that the new school board will be the most effective if it has the willing support and commitment of

Section 23 parents. Our gove rnm ent has estab li shed an implementation su pport team , chaired by the Honourable Alfred Monnin. The team's primary task is to consult with Frangais school communities and give parents an opportunity to signal their readines s to join the new structure. We are confident the new governance structure will be effective. We believe a signific ant number of school commu nities will join at the onset.

778 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 We call upon the Francophone groups now to name their representative to the implementation support team. Further delay could result in delayed elections and that is not what this government wants. By working together in good faith, we can achieve our objective of providing Francophone governance. I am pleased to table a copy of the Supreme Court's unanimous decision offered by Chief Justice Lamer available in both offi cial languages. * (1 430) Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I welcome the mi nister's statement here today.

Of course, this is a very important, difficult and controversial area, and one that we can say at the outset that we supp orted so far as the Supr eme Cour t decisio n on governance where numbers warrant, where there are sufficient numbers, and the ��overnment is now at a position where it will have to implement that decision. The mini ster has announced what she believes are the first steps in that process here today. We certainly are committed to finding workable and practical solutions to this matter here in the province of Manitoba.

However, having said that, it is not going to be an easy process, because there is I believe a lack of consensus out there at the present time with regard to this issue and a great divergence of opinion as to how the government should proceed in enacting and giving effect to the Supreme Court decision that we have seen here today. Parents involved with French education as Francophones and those who are non- French language parents have different views on what exactly should proceed and happen. I think one of the concerns that we have, Mr.

Speaker, is with regard to this government's track record insofar as developing a partnership in consensus building. There is a great deal of concern insofar as the track record that we see, not only from this mini ster but other ministers as well, not only in Education, in many different areas, an inabili ty to develop a consensus to consult and to ensure that all views are taken into consideration, whether it be the sc-called health reform, whether it be the cuts in educ ation that the minister has undertaken here at the same time that she is announcing this new initiative here.

So we will be watching and debating this area very carefully insofar as the impleme ntation strategy and the kinds of consensus buil ding and process buildin g that this government will undertake under this mini ster. We will certainly have more to say on this matter as time goes on, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Oui, Monsieur le president, il me fait grand plaisir de faire des commentaires sur Ia decision de Ia Cour supreme ce matin.

Je crois que c'est une victoire pour les Francophones manitobains et puis j' aimerais premierement felici ter le comite de parents franco-manitobains pour leur tenacite et leur devou emen t envers Ia gestion scolaire des Franco- Manitobains. C' est quelque chose qui aurait dO avoir lieu il y a longtemps. Je regarde ici ce que le gouvernem ent Conservateur a depose en Chambre le 6 novembre 19 89. C'est tres clair qu'est-ce qu'il voulait faire. Nous voila rend us en 19 93.

"Reconnaissant que Ia popula tion francophone du Manitoba constitue un el em ent de l'un e des car acte ristiques fondamentales du Canada, le gouvernement du Manitoba etablit par Ia presente sa politique en matiere de services en langue franqaise.

Cette politique a pour but de permettre aux Manitobains d'exp ression franqaise et aux etablissements qui desservent les collec tivites francophones de beneticier des services gouvernementaux offerts dans Ia langue des lois du Manitoba." 'Dans Ia me sure du possible, le gouvernement du Manitoba doit offrir ses services dans les deux langues offi cielles dans les regions designees ou Ia population d'exp ression franqaise est concentree. Ces regions sont indiquees sur Ia carte ci-jointe ." Alors je crois qu'avec Ia decision de ce matin, il est tres important qu'on pou rsuive Ia gestion des ecoles franqaises.

L'im portant, c'est, je crois, que le Parti Liberal a supporte qa des le debut et puis je suis sur qu'on al e support de !'opposition offi cielle. Mais je vois qu'il n'y a aucune date d'echeance encore une fois; on dit qu'on va avancer avec le dossier. Moi, j'ai fait un communique de presse ce matin et je disais qu'on le verrait en place le 1 er septem bre 19 94 . Je regardais peut -etre le processus et puis qu'il n'avait pas encore ate depose en Chambre, le projet de loi. Le comite de parents a indique aux nouvelles aujourd'hui qu'ils aimeraient voir qa au 1 er septembre 199 3.

Je le verrais comme une bonne chose que qa soit imp lante pour le 1 er sep tem bre 19 93, si les legislateurs se preparent et se sup portent afin de donner Ia gestion scolaire aux Francophones du

March 4, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 779 Manitoba qui est dOe de puis longtemps. Mais qu'on travaille ensemble pour Ia commu naute et qu'on voie a ce que nos droits soient respectes. Je demanderai peut -etre au mi nis tre de !'Education de mettre en place un regime et un systeme qui permettront a Ia minorite francophone d'exercer pleinement ses droits im mediatement et que le projet de loi soit en place d'ici quelques semaines afin que l'on ait des debats dans Ia Legislature pour satisfaire a notre communaute. Pourquoi est-ce qu'on est obliges d'aller a Ia Cour supreme afin d'avoir une decision?

La decision etait faite. C'est tres clair et on aimerait avoir une procedure afin qu' on ait notre gestion scolaire. [interjection] Pardon? Oui. On le voit ici: "Notre gouvernement a mis sur pied un grou pe de mi se en oeuv re que preside !'honorable Alfred Monnin. La principale tache de ce groupe est de consulter les commu nautes scolaires de langue franc;aise et de donner !'occasion aux parents de signifier leur volonte d'adherer a Ia nouvelle structure." J'espere que c;a ne sera pas un autre comite d'etude qui va etre mis sur pied, mais de Ia consultation afin d'im planter Ia gestion scolaire au Manitoba.

Merci. [Translation) Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise to commen t on this morning's Su preme Cour t decisio n . I think that it is a vic tory for Franco-Manitobans and I would lik e firstly to congratulate the Francophone parents' committee for their tenacity and their dedic ation to Francophone schools governance in Manitoba. This is something which should have happened a long time ago. I am looking here at what the Conservative government introduced in the House on November 6, 19 89. It is very clear what they wanted to do.

Now here we are in 19 93. ''The French Language Services policy of Manitoba is hereby established in recognition of the fact that the French-speaking population of Manitoba is a constituent part of one of the fundamen tal characteristics of Canada. Its pu rpose is to allo w this communi ty and the institutions which serve it to access comparable government services in the language of the laws of Manitoba." "The services provided by the Government of Manitoba shall be offered, to the extent possible, in both of ficial langua ges in areas where the French-speaking population is concentrated.

The desig nated areas are shown on the accompanying map." So I think that, given this morning's decision, it is very im portant that we press forward with the governance of French-language schools. What is im portant, I believe, is that the Liberal Party has supported this from the beginning, and I am sure that it has the support of the official opposition. But I see that there is no time frame for this once again; it is stated that the matter is going to go forward. I issued a press release this morning, and I ind icated that we would see it in place by September 1, 19 94.

I was perhaps looking at the process and the fact that the bill had not been tabled in the House yet. The parents' committee said on the news today that they would like to have it by September 1, 19 93. I believe it would be a good thing if it could be impleme nted for Se pte mber 1, 19 93, if the legislators are prepared, and supp ort each other, so as to give Franco-Manitobans the governance of their schools, which is long overdue. Let us work together for the communit y and ensure that our rights are respected. I will, perhaps, ask the Minister of Education (Mrs.

Vodrey) to put into place a system that will allow the Francophone minority to fully exercise its rights immedia tely and that the bill be tabled in the upcoming weeks for debate in the Legislature in order to satisfy our community. Why are we obliged to go to the Supreme Court in order to obtain a decision? The decision was made. It is very clear, and we would like to have a procedure so that we may have governance of our schools. [interjection] Excuse me? Yes. We see here that "Our government has set up an im plem entation su pport team chaired by the Honourable Alfred Monnin.

The team's primary task is to consult with franc;ais school communities and give the parents an opportunity to signal their readiness to join the new structure." I hope that this is not going to be another review committee that is going to be set up but real consultation with a view to im plementing Francophone schools governance in Manitoba. Thank you. ORDE RS OF THE DAY Hon. Darren Praznlk (Deputy Go vernment House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would ask if you could call for second reading Bill 11 , The Regional Waste Management Authorities, The Municipal

780 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act, and then, Sir, if you could call for a continuation of debate on second readings the legislation as it appears on the Order Paper. SECOND READINGS 8111 11- The Regional Waste Management Author ities, The Municipal Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 11 , The Regional Waste Management Authorit ies, The Municip al Amendmen t and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi concernant les offices regionaux de gestion des dechets, modifiant Ia

Loi sur les muni ci palites et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), be now read a sec ond time and be referred a committee of this House. Motion presented. • (1 440) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I am plea sed to introduce for second reading The Regional Waste Ma nagement Authorities Act and explain the purpose of this particular piece of legislation. The pu rpose of The Reg ional Waste Management Authorities Act is to provide legislation that will enable rural municip alities in Manitoba to combine their resources in establishing regional waste di sposal sites.

Municip alit ies have requested legislation that would set up parameters for regional waste management sites following the in troduc tion of the waste di sposal grou nds regu lation procla ime d in 19 91 under The Envi ronme nt Act. This regu lation set new standards for deve lopment, operation and maintenance of waste dis posal grounds. At the present time, Mr. Speaker, each mu nicip ality throughout the province operates its own waste disposal site.

The Department of Environment has evaluated a number of existing landfill sites and has summ arized that the majority of them would not meet the requirements of the new regulation. As a result, we have had to find alternatives in order to address the problem before us. To this end, the sites that we are proposing would have to be up graded. Then, if they are not 11p graded, they would have to be closed. Municipalities, over the course of the last year, have raised the option of combining resources to develop regional waste sites.

The Department of Environment has encouraged them to do this and to explore the regional concept. The Department of Rural Development has proceeded to develop this proposed bill. The bill itself deals with the structure and the operation of regional waste management authorities. However, it does not address environmental issues related to the siting and the licensing of regional facilities. Regional facilities will have both environmental and economic benefits to municipalities and the commu nities.

The new high standards of the regulation under The Environment Act will be met and maintained, and municipalities will experience long-term cost savings by sharing the costs with neighbouring municipalities. This bill also addresses concerns raised by municipalities regarding the im position of user fees for waste management services. Municipalities are currently required to cover the costs of waste management using property tax levies. As an alternative payment method, they have expressed an interest in charging residents by volume for waste disposal. This new bill, Mr.

Speaker, is responding directly to the requests of Manitoba's rural communi ties and the mu nicipal ities. We antici pate tha t mu ni cipalities and the rural commu nities will welcome this new legislation. Over the last year or so, Mr. Speaker, we have seen some concerns expressed by some of our rural residents with regard to some regulations being implemen ted around the current waste dis posal grounds.

However, as we are able to get more education out to our communities, it is becoming evident that these new regulations are for the benefit of our communi ties and, indeed, the management of our waste disposal grounds has been required for some time. It is time now to assist municipalities in allowing them to, not each construct a new waste management facility, but indeed to be able to co-oper ate with surrounding and neighbouring municipalities in order to be able to meet their needs. With these brief remarks, Mr. Speaker. I am recommending this bill for second reading to the House. Mr.

Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I move. seconded by the memb er for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), that debate be adjourned.

Ma rch 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 781 Motion agreed to. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) DE BATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 2-The Endanger ed Species Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 2 (The Endangered Species Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les especes en voie de dispariti on), on the proposed motion of the honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), standing in the name of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): I am pleased to rise and put some comments about Bill 2 on the record, Bill 2 being The Endangered Species Amendment Act.

Several of my caucus colleagues have already spoken about this act and have put on the record some of the things that we feel are reasonable in this legislation and some of the concerns that we have. I would like to reiterate some of those concerns and share some of my own thoughts on this measure. The mi nister, in his comments introducing this bill, said that basically they were small alth ough important amendments to The Endangered Species Act ar.d that he did not feel that there were any major concerns that could be expressed about this piece of legislation.

Madam Deputy Speaker, as was the case with The Oil and Gas Amendment Act that I spoke on yesterday, while the majority of the amendments may appear to be nothing but housekeeping measures, upon closer scrutiny there are some major concerns that we have expressed and that we want to have addressed in second reading and when we get to the public hearing part of the process. First, I belie ve , it is a good idea to have consis tency with in ternational wording and

definitions as, I think it is fair to say, wildlife-flora and fauna -knows no human-defined boundaries or should know no human-defined boundaries. In some cases the things that humankind has put in the path of a natural habitat has caused major problems such as gas and oil pipelines and highways and subu rban and urban development. Those things have all had major impa cts, and largely negative im pacts on the natural habitat of our flora and fauna, but again the animals and plants do not follow political or geographical boundaries.

They follow their own natural habitat which flows over municipalities, which flows over boundaries set by local government di stricts, which flows over provincial constituency boundaries, which flows over provincial boundaries and, as we all know, does not respect international boundaries. It is important that we be as consistent as possible with international wording and

definitions in this area, and that element of this amendment we congratulate the government for introducing. We feel, as the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) stated yesterday, that it is a bit inconsistent with the current government's normal modus operandi in that it does take in to account the fact that governments do have responsibi lity for taking initiative and taking leadership on many things. This government's basic philosophy has been, and as we have seen in a mu ltitude of areas, to elimi nate the role of government in the lives of the people of the province of Manitoba.

Their thinking is that the less government, the better. In many cases, this has been taken to an extreme which has proved to be extremely deleterious to the people of Manitoba. Howeve r, Madam Deputy Speaker, in this particular case, they have understood that wildli fe and the preservation of wildlife does require more than individual voluntary support in order to maintain and enhance wildlife in this province.

We applaud the government in that area of this legislation. • (1 450) There are, however, some elem ents to this legislation that are missing or we feel are not clarified enough for our comfort and for the safety of the wildlife of this province, and those are the areas that I would like to concentrate my remarks on. First of all, there is no provision, as far as my reading of this legislation, for an inventory of wildlife. Now, it is all well and good to talk about the preservation of wildlife that is currently in existence and attempting to change the

definitions of the various types of wildl ife numb ering; i.e., the

definitions of endangered species, extinct species, indigenous species, et cetera.

782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 That is all well and good, Madam Depu ty Speaker, but it would be more productive and more reasonable, we feel, had the amendments dealt with an inventory of what currently is present in our province-what types of animals, what types of flowers and other forms of flora are in the province of Manitoba and in what numbers. It seems only reasonable, Madam De puty Speaker, that if you are thinking in terms of preserving and enhancing the flora and fauna of the province of Manitoba, that it is im portant, nay, essential to know what the current situation is.

If ypu do not know what the current situation is, you have no benchmark against which to measure success or failure in the futu re. So again, we would apprecia te the government responding, ideally during de bate on second reading, but fai ling that, certainly in the public hearing process, to our concerns on this issue. Why is it that there is no provision in this act, or in these amendments, for an inventory of the current status of the flora and fauna in this province, particularly when the United States has been much further ahead of us in Manitoba and in Canada in this regard?

I will say, parenthetically, that the United States has been more progressive in this area, even given the fact that over the last almost 20 years the United States has been governed by a very regressive, nonprogressive national party led by Mr. Reagan and Mr. Bush, not noted for their concerns for the environment. Yes, parenthetically, again, we have high hopes on this side of the House that the current President and particularly Vice-President of the United States will carry on and make even more stringent rules and regulations dealing with the environment than currently is the case.

I would like to give a brief little personal comment that I believe fairly accurately reflects the political environment of the United States in the years of Reagan and Bush. As I said, it is amazing that they have progressed as far as they have on some environmental issues and given their ideological perspective.

I think, as many memb ers know, President Reagan, before he was president of the United States, was governor of the state of California, which is home to many of the most exotic and unique forms of wildlife and trees and plants in North America, many of which are becoming more and more extinct by the day. One of the most famous and most awe-inspiring of these life forms is the redwood trees of California. I would strongly urge anyone who has an opportunity to visit California to take advantage of going to see the redwoods of California.

They are truly magni ficent li fe forms that dema nd an enormous amount of respect from humankind. When Mr. Reagan was governor of the state of California, there was concern raised about logging these redwood trees. Many of the private logging companies wanted to be able to have access to these trees which are huge, very old and would of course make an enormous profit for these lumber companies.

The governor did not see anything wrong with this and was qui te prepared to open logging to these companies and when asked in the state Legislature why he was so prepared to devastate one of the most magnificent life forms that our world knows said, well, if you have seen one redwood you have seen them all.

I find this to be an unbelievable statement made by the then-governor of the state of California and latterly president of the United States, Ronald Reagan-as I stated earlier, not one of the most progressive or environmentally sound individuals who has ever held public office in North America An Honourable Member: And the highest deficit in U.S. history to boot. Ms. Barrett: And the highest deficit in U.S. history to boot. However, I should not digress.

Even in the atmosphere of the United States in the 19 70s and '80s in the reactionary conservative milieu of the Ronald Reagan-George Bush years their environmental protection acts are light years ahead of what we have in Canada and Manitoba. What this says about the federal government and the provincial government has been put on record by members on this side of the House on many occasions. It is a very sad thing to say when Ronald Reagan is held up as an environmentalis t in comparison to the current provincial government in Manitoba. That speaks volumes, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Within that context I again ask the government why they are so un willin g to ex tend these amendm ents to provide for things such as an inventory of current wildlife and plant life in the province of Manitoba. Perhaps, Madam Deputy

March 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 783 Speaker, I can answer that question in light of the fact that there is no response from the government side of the House. Perhaps it might be that there is not the political will or the ideological will to do this. I think we can make a fairly strong case that that is, in fact, the rationale behind the lack of an inventory process in this act. Another lack in this act, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the lack of enforcement.

It is all very well and good for the government to say that we are going to provide for this and that and the other thing without tal king about enforce men t procedures. The concerns on enforcement, as I have stated, are ones that we would like to ask the mi nister to address in second reading, but failing that, certainly in the public hearing process. I would suggest that the lack of inventory and the lack of enforcement processes in this legislation are due, as I stated earlier, not only to a lack of ideol ogical com mi tment on the part of this government to the environment.

That lack of commitment can also be seen in the fact that this government has consistently over its term in office elim inated and cut back financial and personnel resources in these areas in particular with the possible exception, as my honourable friend the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) has said, of outside, contracted-out, U.

S. -based consu ltants who do not come cheap. • (1 500) Madam Deputy Speaker, how can a government stand in its place and say that they are committed to the environment, that they are committed to the protection of the environment, that they are committed to the preservation and enhancement of our natural resources, when they implemen t legislation such as the Oak Hammock Marsh legislation? It gives a virtually free hand to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) and the Minister of Environment {Mr.

Cumm ings) to do anything that they want, and with the only caveat that the government can provide us, the only little sop of security, is this: trust us. Well, that smacks a great deal in my mind of the 19 84 commitment made on the part of the boy from Baie-Com eau: medic are is a sacred trust. Madam Deputy Speaker, the federal government is a macrocosm of the provincial government in these regards.

They have virtually no commitment other than verbal to environmental security, to the preservation of programs and services that enhance the quality of life for all Manitobans and for the physical surroundings that all Manitobans live in. We cannot, and the people of Manitoba unde rstand that we cannot, continue to decrease the human and financial resources necessary to protect, even in the most mi nimal of fashion, our natural resources without serious and potentially incredibly damaging outcomes.

I think we all know that many species, thousands of species each day, each month, each year become extinct throughout the world. It might be said, well, what has that to do with us; we are fine; we do not need to worry about that; we have lots of trees; we have lots of lakes; we have lots of water; we have lots of natural resources. Madam Deputy Speaker, as John Donne said several hundred years ago: No man is an island. We know that we ignore our natural resources, we ignore the preservation and enhancement of our natural resources to our peril as a society.

This act does not give us much feeling of comfort that this government is prepared, in any meaningful way, to deal with those major issues. Madam Deputy Speaker, another change that we have some concern about is the fact that under the current legisla tion anima ls cou ld be held by department personnel or others only while they were alive. I know that the mi nister has explained in his comments some of the reasons why it is felt necessary to amend this to allow for the killing, in certain instances, of wildlife. The reasons given by the government for this change in legislation are reasonable on the surface.

It is for humanitarian-if I can use that word in conjunction with wildlife- purposes, so if there is an animal that is seriously injured with no possibility of being able to be revived or assisted back to health, this act would allow a person to kill that animal, to put it out of its misery. Now there is no one on this side of the House who would deny that is very definitely a goal we should achieve and strive for and perhaps something that was left out of the legislation originally that needs to be clarified and put in.

The second change this legislation allows for is that certain killing permits can be issued for killing certain animals for scientific purposes. Now this is an area where I have some serious concerns. I have them because the amendments, to my way of

784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 thinking, are not clear in this regard. I am very concerned that the lack of clarity and the lack of definition of some of the terms in these amendments will lead to the potential for abuse. Legislation is implemen ted by humans, all of whom are prone in one degree or another to make mistakes.

The purpose of legislation is to protect the commu nity from as many of those human errors as possible, and so the legislation, to be good legislation, must be as tight as possible, as clear as possible and allow for as little human error as is possi ble in legis lation that is drafted and implemen ted by humans. Consequently, we have some concerns about some of the areas in this particular part of the legislation.

The allowing for killing for scientific purposes has been used by Japan and Norway to commercially hunt and kill whales including species of whales that are on the endangered list under the auspices of the International Whaling Commission. This is not to say that would happen in Manitoba but, as I have stated earlier, legislation should protect as far as is huma nly possible from that type of behaviour occurring.

We do not see that the legislation as it is currently worded protects the wildlife in this province as adequately as it must do no matter who is in the role of mi nis ter responsible for implemen ting this legislation although, parenthetically, I will state that the past history of this government in this province has not been exempla ry in this area, so we are concerned in that regard as well.

The r>ew wording, we are also afraid, may have allowed with the minis ter's permission Ducks Unli mited, that infamous head offi ce complex of Ducks Unlimi ted, to damage the habitat or kill such endangered species as piping plovers since their developm ent at Oak Ham mock was mo stly considered a scientific, educational and research project and, as the Mini ster of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) has jus t stated, not just an office complex.

So theoretically, Madam Deputy Speaker, under the new legislation as proposed by this government, additional wildlife destruction could have taken place under the minis ter's approval with the wording that is currently in place. All we are asking is for the government to tighten up these regulations, these

definitions, so that is not something that could conceivably happen. Again we are concerned about the defini tion of scientific pu rposes. What precisely is a scientific pu rpose under these amendments? As I have stated earlier, other countries have used under the gu ise of scie ntific purpo ses killing of whales, including endangered species of whales. * (1510 ) We must ensure that this does not happen under this legislation, so what we are asking is for a tightening up of that definition, a clarification of that definition so that will not happen in the province of Manitoba.

Prior to this there was no definition of scientific purposes and there did not seem to be any reason for defining scientific purposes under the old act because there was no allowing for killing for scientific purposes. Now, under the new amendments as proposed by the government, killing can take place under certain permitted circumstances for scientific purposes, and according to my reading of the act it is pretty much at the discretion of the mi nister. Well, I am sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, but we on this side of the House have some major concerns with that part, that permissiveness of the legislation.

The governmen t has not shown itself to be environmentally active. It has not shown itself to be concerned overly with or even moderately with the environmental problems that face us in Manitoba. Cutbacks in their staffing have occurred every year since this government has been in power. Major cutbacks have just been announced in another department of Environment. Other legislation that this government has passed has given sweeping di scretionary powers to the mini ste rs of Environment and Natural Resources.

This is yet another example of that broade ning of the discretionary powers of the mi nister. and we feel that this is not the way to go in this kind of legislation which is designed to protect the wildlife of our province. So, again, how do you define scientific pu rposes? What exactly are the discretionary powers that the mi nister has? Again, who is the person who can receive a permit to kill wildlife under this legislation? There does not appear to me, Madam Deputy Speaker, that there is an adequate definition, if any definition, of the term "person" who is allowed to access a permit.

There is an advisory board, but it

Ma rch 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANIT OBA 785 is an advisory board to the mi nister. We do not know who the people are. The mi nister in his discussion on the legislation in Decem ber says that we have a commit tee comprised of half a dozen individuals who meet on a regular basis to take up the question of whether or not specific species ought to come under the protection of this act. Well, who exactly makes up this advisory committee? Is it six individuals? Is it a minimum of six? Is it a maximum of six? Are there any technical or expert qualif ications required for these positions?

Do they advise the mini ster? Do they have any control or any power? As we saw yesterday, Madam Deputy Speaker, the changes that have been suggested to the oil and gas act give far more power to the mi nister and far less authority and imp act to the board that is working with that act. Again, we have the same type of concern with this piece of legislation. The mini ster has far too much disc retionary power. The powers that the mi nister has are not clearly defined. The people to whom these permits can be issued are not def ined. Is there a gu arantee ?

There is no definition of the term or the concept •scientific purpose." We have no comfort in any of these

definitions and any of these terms. They are not clearly defined. They must be clearly defined. I guess, Madam Depu ty Speaker, in conclusion, my concern is that this government has not just made oversights in these amendments, that it is not just something that the mi nister will say as a rEisult of our discussions or our concerns being raised in debate on second reading--o h, you are right we should have done this; we should have tightened this up. No, my concern is that the minister knew fully and completely what his objectives were in making these amendments.

Madam Deputy Speaker, that is what causes us concern for two reasons. One is we do not know what the minister's objectives are in this regard. We do not believe that they are merely housekeeping and small insigni ficant changes. No, we do not believe that because we have seen too many instances on the part of this government where ostensibly small insignif icant changes have been made that have enormous impl ications on the part of the province of Manitoba.

This government has no qualms about making major changes to the child welfare system in this province, not through bringing in legislation that could be publicly and openly debated in the House and in public hearings, but through a weekend change, overnight, of the regulations. Again, Madam Deputy Speaker, the changes to the social assistance regulations in this province were done-ost ensibly there were changes to the act, but the numbers and the way the government was going to implem ent those changes were not explained in the discussion of legislation.

These are only two ex amp le s of this government's willingness to attempt to slide through changes to legislation that have sweeping and broad im plications under the guise of housekeeping and mi nimal, unimp ortant, in conseq uen tial amendments to legislation, hoping, I assume, that we on this side of the House would not pay any attention, hoping that the public hearing process would go by just in a brief period without any discussion. Well, Madam Deputy Spe aker, we are not prepared to have that happen.

We are going to put on record our concerns, and we would hope that the government would pay attention to those concerns. We would hope that the government will take our criticisms in the way that they are intended, which is to be constructive and to sugges t additional alternatives or amendments to be made to this piece of legisla tion, and certainly to provide some questions to be asked in the public hearing process after we get through second reading.

Madam Dep uty Speaker, with those remarks, I would conclude my co ncerns on Bill 2, The Endangered Species Amendment Act, and would hope very seriously that the government would listen to our concerns and take constructive action as a result of those. Thank you. Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Na tur al Resources): Madam Dep uty Speaker , I am pleased to have the opportunity to close debate on- Madam Deputy Speaker: To close debate? It has been left standing. Leave was granted to leave the-- Mr. Enns: Well, you cannot blame me for trying, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Bill 3- The Oil and Gas and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 3 (The Oil and Gas and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi concernant le petrole et le gaz natu rei et apportant des

786 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 modifications correlatives a d'aut res lois) , standing in the name ofthe honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave has been granted. 8111 5-The Northern Affairs Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume de bate on second reading of Bill 5 (The Northern Affairs Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les affaires du Nord), standing in the name of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) . Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave . Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Deput y Speaker, I would like to speak on this bill if I could, Bill 5, The Northern Affairs Amendment Act. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to speak on this particular bill. I think it is important to put a number of commen ts on the record. I would like to indicate that I know our Northern Affairs critic, the member for The Pas (Mr.

Lathlin), will be raising a number of concerns. He is currently in northern Manitoba. He is unable to speak today, but I know he is very anxious to contribute to the debate. I hope members, and particularly the Minister of Highways (Mr. Driedger), would appreciate that this is the one time of year in northern Man itoba-and he being Min ister of Highways, I know he is a little bit sensitive about this, but this is winter road season for those mem bers of this House who are not aware of the importa nce of our winter road network in northern Manitoba.

I know the Minister of Highways is a little bit sensitive about this because the Min ister of Highways had very much in error deleted winter roads from a budget a couple of years ago, leading to an outcry in many northern commu nities, and it was subsequently reinstated . I must say I could never un derstand why it was cancelled in the first place, but this is the time of year when the winter roads are open. • (1 520) Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): They were closed today in the afternoon because of the weather conditions. Mr.

Ashton: Well, the weather conditions, as the Minister of Highways says, are pretty difficult. We had a major snowfall in Thompson these past couple of days, a couple of feet actually, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it is certainly going to make it difficult. I was fortu nate , ac tually, Ma dam Deput y Speaker, to be able to travel on one of the winter roads just recently to York Landing and to IIford.

Many people in that communi ty are anxiously awaiting responses I know in terms of a possible futur e conn ection into those com mu nit ies of all-weather roads, partic ularly in the case of IIford, which is on the bayline. I must say that many people on the bayline are very concerned about the future of the bayline. I know the Minister of Highways is certainly aware of those concerns and certainly has discus sed those concerns in this House, as has our critic. I say that, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I know our critic is travelling extensively in the North.

One of the un fortunate things, one of the ironic things is we tend to sit often in February and certainly in March, and that is basically when the winter roads are open. Most of the winter roads in my area open up in late January, and it is the opportunity to get into many of the commu nities, many of the Northern Affa ir s co mmun ities connec ted by the winter road network. I want to say that, Madam Deputy Speaker, to begin with because I had the opportunity to talk to residen ts of a numb er of Nor thern Affa irs communi ties and official representatives of those commu nities over the last number of weeks.

I have been in Wabowden, which is a Northern Affairs communi ty, and IIford, which is in an interesting situation . I do not know how many people realize, but IIford basically has been appr oved as a rese rve. Many of the people now have been clearly given status, either through C-31 or through direct statu s, and it will soon become a reserve, but it is technically still a Northern Affairs community. In fact, I would assume there ma y st ill be a Northern Affairs com muni ty alon gside the rese rve when it is established, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I have

March 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 787 had the opportunity to talk to people in those commu nities. In the next few weeks I will be into Thicket Portage and Pikwitonei. I know that we are not su pposed to make reference to absence in the House or not, but I am sure that within the next week or two, in fact, I can tell mem bers of this House that there will probably be at least a day or two when I will not be in the House. To the mini ster across the way, that will be because I am travelling the winter roads into Thicket Portage and Pikwitone i, which hopefu lly will still be open at that time.

I know the minister would love to go in with me. I believe he has already been in Thicket Portage. In fact, I would like to take him back to look at some of the continuing probl ems with housing conditions in the community. He is more than welcome to come up with me, Madam Deputy Speaker. It would be an approxima te seven-hour dr ive-pardon me, about an eight-hour drive to the turnoff of the winter road and about another 45 minu tes into Thicket Portage. So if the minister has eight or nine hours to spare there and eight or nine back, I would certainly be willing to take him in on the winter road.

I realize it is not an experience that many people in government have the opportu nity to do, because the tendency, because of tight schedules -and I am not blaming anyone-is to fly into communi ties. Of course, the winter road is only open for a couple of months, but perhaps we could arrange a pair for the minis ter to come up with me to Thicket Portage. If he was to promise to visit house to house with me and to come to a couple of people in Thicket Portage in

part icular to look at some of the housin g conditions in the community, I think it would be greatly appreciated. I think many people would love to have the min ister there, love to see the mini ster and show the

part icular conditions either in Thicket Portage, which the minister has already visited, and I do not beli eve he has had the oppor tu nity to be in Pikwitone i. Pikwitonei, I know. would be very anxious to do that. I am not just strictly blaming the minister. I do not want any misim pressions to be left. Part of the problem is with CMHC. I know the minister certainly knows the minister responsible for CMHC and the federal government and perhaps might be able to assist those of us who have been fighting for better housing conditions in those communi ties. [interjection] Maybe we can get the federal minister.

Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, if this minister could get the federal mini ster to come to Thicket Portage and Pikwitone i, I would be impressed. I hope that he will imme diately fax him today and say that he has made this commitment or request the attendance of the minister, because quite frankly there are major problems with housing.

What I want to point out, too, and this is particularly relevant when we are talking about The Northern Affairs Act, is that one of the difficulties in nor thern Mani toba cu rrently, Madam De puty Speaker, is that while 20 years ago the trading communi ties, the First Nations communities, were probably in worse shape on average than the Northern Affairs commu nities, because of lack of self-government, lack of block funding, lack of funding generally. I include edu cation ; I include health to a lesser extent; but I particularly include housing and provision of infrastructure.

Madam Deputy Speaker, what is happening increasingly is that the Northern Affairs communi ties in the 19 90s have fallen consistently behind the other aboriginal communities. The vast majority of people living in Northern Affairs communities are aboriginal, whether it be treaty or whether it be in terms of the many Metis residents, but they have fallen behind other areas. There is a particular deg ree of frustration in the Northern Affairs communities right now. I will tell you where it starts from.

It starts with the kind of funding cuts that we have seen in recent years by both federal and provincial governme nts that have led Northern Affairs commu nities to the situation where they have high poverty. For the information of memb ers, in 19 86 the most recent information that is available-and I was just reading this just recently-the average number of Manitobans below the poverty line, the low-income cutoff, was about 17 percent.

In many areas, many Northern Affairs com mu nities, Madam Deputy Speaker, that figure is as high as 54 percent, and that is in a whole census area of strictly Northern Affairs communities. Fifty-four percent of people are below the low-income cutoff. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is the problem in Northern Affairs commun ities with limited economic base and without the access to funds that First Nations communi ties are increasingly accessing as part of their move to self-government, increasingly demanding and rightly so. Many Northern Affairs communi ties are placed in a very difficult situation.

788 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 I can tell you, it was very difficult last year to go into Thicket Portage and me et with the mayor in Thicket Portage, Maurice Clemons and sit down and be told of the grim situation for young people in that commu nity in terms of employment, and to be told that virtually all the government programs that have been in place have now been elim inated and what gove rnmen t programs that are available now requir e additional funding from a sponsoring communi ty.

People should unde rstand we are talking about Northern Affairs commu nities that do not have a taxation base in many cases or a limited taxation base if they do, do not have access to other revenue. I am referring here to The Northern Affairs Amendment Act for the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), Bill 5. It is of great concern to me to find out the situation that has occurred.

In the case of Thicket Portage I was fortunately able to contact Manitoba Hydro in regards to a number of suggestions by the member in council in that commu nity, and a number of positions were made available in terms of summer em ployment in Thicket Portage. I want to say that when you are talking about commu nities of a couple of hun dred it is particularly frustrating for people in those communi ties to see almost no job opportunities for young people.

I had an interesting experience just two days ago to run into a former resident of Thicket Portage here in Winnipeg through a friend who lived in Thicket Portage in its boom days. Thicket Portage was actually the stag ing point for the development of Thompson. Many people may not be aware of this. It had a hotel, it had stores. It was, in fact, when one looks at the historical records, the sight of the first voting lis ts for people who essen tially were developing the Thompson site in the mid-1 950s with the eventual opening of the shaft in 19 58 and opening the mine in 19 60.

Many people in that community want to work. Many do work on a seasonal basis. Let us not allow anyone to sugge st otherwise, because sometimes there are stereoty pes that are put out. When peocle in that commu nity end up on social assistance, believe you me, it is reluctantly. I have probably a dispr oportio nate num ber of cases of people in that commu nity who end up working, end up on social assistance and find that tney are being penalized in many cases for the kind of income they have made. Incidentally, that is particularly the case if they are self-employed.

I have received concerns from many people in those communities. • (1 530) I want to say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the problem is particularly significant among young people. Across the province there are more young people working proportionately than there are people over the age of 25. Under 25 there is more em ployment, bu1 in northern communi ties there is often not only less em ployment for young people, there is often sig nificantly less, and in man y communi ties there are virtually no jobs.

This is serious because what it results in is a whole gene ration of young people who com e out of school, who are encou raged to continue their educ at ion, and in many No rthern Affair s communi ties there is not a high school, so it takes a major relocation for the young people in those communi ties to go to another communi ty to continue high school. What kind of role model are we offering to young people when, even if they continue their education, they are unable to find em ployment not only on a full-time basis but in the summer? I know the Minis ter of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) is listening to the comments right now, and I think that is fortunate. I want to say to the minister that it is time for the government, in looking at Northern Affairs communi ties, to look very seriously at bringing back some of the kinds of youth em ployment programs that existed previously, the Youth Corps program, for example. I realize it was federal funding in terms of that particular program , but let us look at it. We currently have $40 million in VL T funds going to the government from outside the city of Winnipeg, by the latest estimates. That may have increased since the last estimate.

If the city of Winnipeg puts in VL Ts that will be another $60 mill ion. My un derstanding was that was supposed to go to economic development. Well, some of it may have been put to that use. I would suggest that if members opposite want to deal with the very serious problem in Northern Affairs communi ties and also the Rrst Nations communi ties, to a lesser extent in the ur ban commu nities such as Thompson, that one place you could start would be in terms of northern youth em ployment and at least start with a functional summ er youth em ploymen t program that recognizes the many remote commu nities, the

March 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 789 many Northern Affairs commu nities, do not have the kind of funds to be able to access the few programs that still are in existence. Even the program offered by the RCMP, I know, requires shared funding. Even the few programs that are left, federal programs, require that the commu nities come up with money. Madam Deputy Speaker, they just do not have the funds. The Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) knows that. He knows the way the Northern Affairs commu nities operate.

He knows the tight control over budgets, the limited resources that are made available. I say that because, as I said, I just had the opp or tunit y to tra vel in to a numb er of communi ties where this concern was expressed very signi ficantly. There is a great deal of frustration about the lack of youth em ployment in those commu nities.

That, I think, is something that is important in looking at any legisla tion in regard to Northern Affairs, and that is the unique situation Northern Affairs communi ties are in, the unique situa tion on one hand of local se lf-control and, I know the minister will agree I am sure, the need to maximize the degree of self-control in communi ties and of course the fact that because of the limited tax base, that different struct ur e is requir ed inher en tly because of that fact.

We are not talking about a commu nity such as Thompson or Winnipeg or Brandon or the small towns in southern Manitoba where they can access those type of resources. They are very much dependent on funding priorities of government. There are many concerns ongoing. I mentioned youth emp loyment. We are dealing here with a bill that does deal with a number of issues relating to Crown lands, for example, and the approval of by-laws, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would say that is certainly an area that should be dealt with.

From my consu ltations with people in northern commu nities, which I have not completed yet, certainly I know that a numb er of the items in this bi ll are here very mu ch at the request of Northern Affairs commu nities themselves. An ongoing stru ggle in ma ny northern communi ties now has to do with provision of basic infrastructure. It is an ongoing concern. I know the minister is aware of that, the particular criteria they put in place in parti cular in terms of sewer and water.

Many Northern Affairs commun ities are faced with a major challenge now because of the impact of Bill C-31 , which reinstated the treaty statu s of many people in northern Manitoba. That has led some to relocate to ob viously First Nations commu nities but many to remain in the Northern Affairs communi ty. Wabowden is a good example. You may not be aware, but by estima tes of local peopl e, there are about 65 percent of the popu lation of Wabowden that is C-31 . Many of them by the way still identify as Metis.

Because of the opportun ity to have a historic wrong righted through C-31 , they have retained their treaty statu s, and that is having a major impact on Northern Affairs commu nities. The Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) knows that. Northern Affairs commu nities, for example, are seeking reserve statu s and are looking to IIford as an example. IIford is an example where virtually the entire commu nity now, apart from I believe seven or eight memb ers of the commu nity, is treaty and has received the treaty status.

That goes back to the late Adam Dyck, certainly one of the most respected elders that we have seen in northern Manitoba, an individual I came to know personally and have great respect for. We are dealing here with his legacy when we are talking about the fact that the status has been approved. I say it has been appro ved; it has not been finalized.

I know the Minister of Northern Affairs is working, or at least I know his department is working, on the final nego tiations on the reserve boundary, the question of the relationship between the comm unity and the reserve and a whole series of issues that result from that. That is what I am saying. There are major challenges facing Northern Affairs commu nities, even in terms of their very existence as we know them. There are Northern Affairs commu nities, Madam Deputy Speaker, where virtu ally everyone has received C-31 status.

In fact, what happens in some cases, you have people who are treaty, who by choice live in the Northern Affairs com mu nity rather than the rese rve. In many Northern Affairs commu nities, you may have people who are treaty but from another area who choose to live in the Northern Affairs commun ity. In many cases, there are people now who have received C-31 status, but

790 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 4, 19 93 not received band statu s. People may not be aware that the two do not go hand in hand and that has created some rather difficult situations, some confusion certainly. Th�r� really is an identification process now going on w1th1n the Northern Affairs communities. We really cannot say where it will lead, because the whole identity of many of the com mu nities which traditionally have been called Metis comm unities has been affected by C-31 although many people, as I said before, who have obtained C-31 statu s have told me that they still identify as Metis.

So one is in a situation where you have a very fluid situation in those communi ties.

Beyond those issues, Madam Deputy Speaker, the key theme -and it relates to what I jus t talked about earlier in terms of youth em ployment, and it relates to the infrastructur e ques tions I have pointed out-in many of those commu nities is the need for proper infrastru cture, including roads, a number of communi ties do not have an all-weather road, for example, the need for proper educational access, in particular to make sure that Frontier School Division receives adequate funding to be able to provide educ ation in the Northern Affairs commun ities that it serves and ultimately the need for enhanced economic development in those communi ties.

What I find of concern, Madam Deputy Speaker, is when I talk to the elders in many communi ties in northern Manitoba. We think we have progress in our society attimes, that somehow we are improving decade after decade, ge neration after generation, but there is something that wrenches the heart when one talks to elder s in communi ties where they talk of the good old days, the days in which there was self-sufficiency in their co mmuni ties based on the land, the days when there was self-sufficiency in the communi ties based on emplo ymen t, in many Northern Affairs commun ities, for example, on the bayline.

A significant number of people spent their entire working life working for CN and later for VIA Rail. They talk about the kind of role models that were provided by people who spent their lives trapping or commercial fishing or hunting, the traditional ways, Madam Deputy Speaker, whether they were part of the ma rket economy or not. • (1 540) They talk about the role models, of people who worked 32 years at CN. I talked to an individual just a few days ago of 79 years old who spent 32 years at CN, VIA Rail in northern Manitoba.

They ask the question, where are the role models, Madam Deputy Speaker, when what is happening in the North is that jobs are being cut back. I men tioned about CN and VIA Rail. The numb er of jobs in CN and VIA Rail on the bayline has been slashed in the last number of years, slashed to the point where �ere are barely any people working on the bayline 1n those com mu ni ties at CN and VIA Rai l, good-paying jobs, traditionally jobs with some level of job security. Traditionally, though that sadly is changing and jobs that provided a role model to the communi ties.

We are seeing, Madam Deput y Speaker, in many co mmu ni ties, many small Nor ther n Affa irs commun ities out-mi gration. We are seeing it not just of young people who have given up hope of being able to find job opportunities in their own commu nities. Interes tingly enough, we are also seeing it from many senio rs, from many elders. I was in IIford the other day and many seniors in that communi ty, many elders have relocated to other com mu ni ties because a lack of fac ilities are available for them.

I say that it is sad because what is being lost at the same time is both the history of that commu nity, the oral history through the elders them selves and, on the other hand, with the out-migr ation of young people, the future of those communi ties. You know, there is someth ing, as I said, that really hits you when you talk to somebody as I did, as I men tioned a few momen ts ago, from Thicket Portage who rememb ered the good old days when he went to school in Thicket Portage, lived there for many years and how that communi ty was a thriving communi ty.

Many people today who travel into the communi ty of Thicket Portage would be surprised to know just how vibrant the economy was, just how many stores were in that commu nity, would be surprised by the fact there was a hotel once in that communi ty, would be surprised there were literally hun dreds of people who came throu gh that commu nity and hun dreds have lived there, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I guess what I see, though, on the other hand, is the cont inuing spirit in many of those commu nities, you know, the fact they have given everything, for example, in Thicket Portage or Pikwitonei or IIford, all Northern Affairs communi ties or a commun ity such as York Landing in my area, none of which have all-weather roads, all of which are accessible

March 4, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 791 only by winter road or in the case of the three bayline communities by three- day-a-week train service, only one of which currently has scheduled air service. It is amazing that those communities have survived the way they have. It is amazing that they are continuing to survive even given some of the new challenges. I look at what is happening at Thicket Portage , a once thriving commercial fishing industry which is being devastated by the economic situation and what I consider the mismanagemen t of the northern fishery by the Freshwate r Fish Marketing board.

It is amazing, given those cont inuing blows, Madam Deputy Speaker, given the fact that Conawapa, which was going to be developed, was a potential opportunity for many of the people who worked on Limestone , because many people had specializ ed in construction related to Hydro sites over the last number of years as a way to get em ployment. Now that opportunity is no longer available.

It is amazing, given the government cutbacks that have taken place in terms of programs that have provided jobs in those commun ities, that have provided jobs to young peo ple, that they still continue to hang in there and still, Madam Deputy Speaker, show a degree of commu nity spirit, I think, that would amaze many peopl e. I would hope at some