PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number~ 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 16,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

April 16th., 1970 Tape no. 499 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Page 1 RON. J. R. SMALLWOOD(Premier): Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I extend a word of warm welcome to some students, some sixty-seven students, and I t.rould think perhaps they are on both sides of the House in the galleries, because there are so many of them. Sixty-seven Grade VIII and Grade IX students of Roncalli School in care of three of their teachers; Hiss Da"'e, Hr. Cole and Hr. Kelly. I do not think this is the first time that we have had students here in the House from that great school.

I think they have been here in other years. Anyhow it may be the first time that these particular students have come to visit us. We are delighted that they have done that. He. are very pleased that they are here, because if there is one thing we like more than anything else in this House, is to have visits from young Newfoundlanders, because you see, Mr.

Speaker, what these young people may not always know or understand and it may be many, many years fromnow before they do understand that the main purpose of this House, the main job of this House and the members in it, is to make laws and do things that will make a better Province for these young people in which to grow up. That is our job. That is what we are here for.

Now sometimes, I will admit, sometimes it does not always look like that, and very often it is hard to see how this or that or the other action of the Government or of the House can possibly make Newfoundland a better place in which young people can grm.r up and take over the responsibility for running it five, six or eight or ten years from now. It is not always easy to see, but neverth~less that is what we are here for. We are here for that very, very reason.

Here on this side of the House,over on the other side of the House, all of us are here in the House, ~e were elected to do that and that is what we are here for and that is what we are trying to do. We do not ahvays agree on the best tvay to do it, but '1-~e all have the same desire. That is what we are here for. We understand that 2188

April 16th., 1970 Tape no. 499 Page 2 clearly. He are :trying to make a better Newfoundland, so that I young Newfoundlanders who are now going to school and who will be coming out of school, out of college five or six or eight or ten years from now, will have a Province to live in, that they will be proud of, where they can live and grow and have a good living. I do not mean to live high, but have a good living, live well, and I do not mean just food and clothing and housing.

I mean in the world of the mind, in the world of the spirit, have a good fine, decent and clean, energetic and progressive and honest Province to live in. That is what we are all here for, both sides of the House. Now you might never think that. You might not always think that, but we know it. We understand it. He disagree and sometimes we agree to disagree. Here they are. We are happy they are here, sixty-seven of them, 1 with three of their teachers and I am going to take them into a little secret now.

There is one time every day just at the start of the House, when the Leader of the Opposition and the Premier are in perfect agreement. If we never agree anyother time of the day, we agree here at the beginning of every session. He are absolutely in perfect agreement, the Leader of the Opposition and I, and that is this: we agree on this that these students are wonderful. They ··are clean. They are clean-cut. They are decent. T3.ey are full of idealism. They are hard "1orkers. They love their school. They love Newfoundland. They are trying to get ahead. They are ambitious.

They are good looking, especially the girls, and they are intelligent. The Leader of the Opposition cannot get up and deny any of that. He has got to get up and agree with me, perfectly, and I now challenge him to do that very thing. HR. THOMAS HICKEY: !-!r. Speaker, while my colleague the Leader of the Opposition did not rise in his seat to concur with the remarks of the hon. the Premier, I am sure he does agree. It is with much pleasure that I associate myself with his remarks. As he says, we do not agree too often, but certainly we cannot disagree on this particular instance.

I would hope that the students from Roncalli · School will have an enjoyable afternoon. 2189

April 16th., 1970 Tape no. 499. Page 3 One never knmvs, whether it is going to be exciting or othendse in this hon. House, and if they are lucky, it might very well become a rather exciting afternoon. There is now way of knowing, whether it is a good day or not so good a day to visit this House. Certainly, Sir, it is a pl<.>.asure to see them here, accompanied by their teachers, Miss Daw~, Mr. Cole and Mr~ - Kelly. As the Premier has indicated or guessed, Roncalli School is in the district, which I have the honour to represent.

On behalf of my colleagues it is with much pleasure that I welcome these students and hope that they will have an enjoyable afternoon. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add a word of welcome to those of the Premier and the bon. member for St. John's East (Extern), to welcome these students and their teachers. We occasionally have differences of opinion in this forum, Mr. Speaker, no doubt they do in their school. Our differences of opinion are settled in a different way perhaps, or they will be settled sometime in the near future. I do not doubt that. I hope that the~will enjoy their stay here, Mr.

Speaker. Once again, I mi~ht make a point that I made a few days ago and that is: I would like to see the Orders of the Day or the program given out, if it is not too expensive for the printer to print extra copies. I think it would be agood idea. It would give these visitors something to take back to the classroom and it is easier for them to follow the proceedings, if they have the Orders of the Day. So I will make that suggestion again and in the meantime I hope that they enjoy this afternoon's sitting. NOTICE OF HOTION MR. ANTH01'Y J. MURPHY: (Leader of the Opposition) __ Hr.

Speaker, may I permit a question on a motion that has not been presented as yet. Mr. Speaker, I am out of order, would it wait for Orders of the Day? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member wishes to obtain some information? 21!30

April 16th., 1970 Tape no. 499 Page 4 NR. MURPHY: Yes. It is a motion that has been on the Order Paper for sometime- a select committee on the Auditor General's Report. I am just wondering , when the Speaker will be appointing that select committee on the Public Accounts. It is moved by the Hinister of Finance, I believe some four weeks ago. MR. SPEAKER: That matter will be go~e into. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS HON. J,:\ .. ""fES R. CHALKER (Ninis ter of Public Horks) Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question no .331 on the Order Paper of April 9th. , asked by the hon. member for Burin.

The answer to Question no. 345 on the Order Paper of April 9th. , asked by the bon. member for St. John's Hestand the answer to Question no. 357 on the Order Paper of April lOth., asked by the hon. member for Gander and the answer to Question no. 362 on the same Order Paper of April lOth., asked by the hon. member for Gander. HON. GEORGE A. FRECKER (Minister of Provincial Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to two questions here. Question no. 448 asked by the bon. member for St. John's West appearing on the Order Paper of April 15th.

We have one qualified officer lookin g after the matters referred to, but we avail of the services of qualified staff of ether Government departments to carry out investigations and inspections • • ~-i-&n-4"4;8--a·nd\,:l n reply to Question no. 450, asked by the bon. member for St. Johnis lvest appearing on the Order Paper of 21.91

JH April 16, 1970, Tape //500 Page t HON. G. A. FRECKER (Hinister of Provincial Affairs): of April 15, He have 1 Life Insurance as sub-head of the question: None. Sub-head 2: Fire, General Accident and Automobile Insurance, four companies. Sub-head 3 ':J/s other types of companies; none. Sub-head 4, Local Incorporated 4, that is the four just referred to under Sub-head 2.

The department has satisfied itself that policy holders of N.ewfoundland Fire and General Insurance Company Limited, and Newfoundland Harine Insurance Company t.imited, and Canadian Universal Insurance Company Limited are fully protected by way of deposits pursuant to the Act and Company assets. The department has assured itself that the Insurance Corporation of Newfoundland has adequately covered the insurance agreement.

The superintendent of insurance that is the Deputy Hinister of Provincial Affairs has been assured by the Insurance Companies that the Insurance Corooration of Newfoundland is properly managed, and that the Reinsurance Companies are prepared to accept all the insurance agreements that are available from I.C.O.N. that is the Universal Insurance Company Limited. The superintendent is resoonsible for the administration of the Act and has one qualified official under his supervision, but he has four other officials in the department that might not be considered as specialists in the field. HON. E.N.

DAIVE (!1inister of Hunicipal Affairs): Hr. Speaker, in answer to Question (304) on the Order Paper of Wednesday April 8, asked by the hon • . member for Fortune. I table the answer to this question, question (304). In answer to Question (419) on Tuesday's Order Paper April 14, asked by the hon. member for St. John's \.Jest. The answer to the first part of the question; a land acquisition and holding agreement between the Government of Canada, Central Hortgage and Housing, Newfo!-lndland and Labrador Housing Corporation was entered into.

The agreement provides for the acquisition, holding for development and olanning of 300 acres of land in the Elizabeth area of Corner Brook. A loan agreement between Central Hortgage and Housing and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation has been executed, provides ninety percent of their estimated cost of initial development of service land 2191 A

JW April 16, 1970 Tape 1/500 Page 2 in the Elizabeth Street area. In answer to the second part of the ouestion: work has commenced in the Elizabeth Street area to provide ninety-seven residential lots and a further servicing of 145 multiple housing units. This work has been under construction nm.;r for some time. A contract was awarded to Messrs. Lundrip,an's Construction Limited of Corner Brook, and the Hork there is progressing. Further to this proposal the consulting engineers have made submission to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation for a further development of the scheme.

An application has been forwarded to Central Nortgage and Housing at Otta~va for their consideration, and we anticipate that further development will take place in the Elizabeth Street area this summer. In ans~·7er to Ouestion (420) asked by the hon. member for St. John's West on Tuesday's Order Paper, April 14. In ans\ver to the first part of the question. A land acquisition and holding agreement has been entered to the Government of Canada, Central Nortgage and Housing Corporation, and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporat-ion.

The agreement provides for their acquisition holding for development and planning for R50 acres of land. The answer to the second part of the question; no construction or development \''ark has yet been commenced. It is exPected this work \vill commence this present year. In anS\-'er to Ouestion No. (421) on .. the Order Paper of April 14, asked by the hon~ member for St. John's West. The ans~ver to the first part of the question is no.

And the ans\ver to the second part of the question is no~ But I might add that developments \vith regard to shell housing \vi thin the Province will be given in detail in the Budget Address. HON. HAROLD STARKES (Hinister of High~vays): Hr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question (434) asked by the han. member for Rurin. The answer is no. The answer to (436) asked by the hon. member for Burin. The answer is no. ORDERS OF THE DAY::-: HR. SPEAKER: Before we enter upon Orders of the Day, I intend to give my ruling on the question of privilege raised by the han. member for St. John's \vest a felv days ago.

I did not do it yesterday for the reason that it was private members' day, and the ruling and the remarks I intend to make about ROints of privilege are somewhat lengthy, and I thought it would he better done today than yesterdav. Now as I say~not only will I give my 2191 B

April 16, 1970 Tape $500 Page 3 ruling on this matter of the point of privilege that was raised by the bon. member, but I want to say a few words concerning privilege generally in the hope that it will be a guide to all hon. members in the future when they rise on similar or other points of privilege in this House.

I would say, first of all, that the Speaker of the House when he:·has to rule as JW to whether there is a prima facie case of privilege or not, he is placed in a rather anomalous position in that if he rules that there is a ~rima facie case, he appears to give his blessing to a complaint even if that complaint later on may be found to have very little foundation in fact. And the converse if also true. He is placed in a bit of an awkward position which ever way he rules.

All the authorities and the various committees that have been set up in many parts of the Commonwealth have commented on this as sort of an unfair position in which the Speaker should find himself, and it is time that the rules in this connection were changed. Now before I proceed further I think that we should try and define what privilege is, and in doing that, I will first of all read what Erskine May says, and bon. members no doubt have read this before, but I will read it again for the benefit of the House.

He says, "privilege is the sum of the fundamental rights of the House and of its individual members as against the prerogatives of the Crown, the authority of the ordinary Courts of law, and the special rights of the House of Lords," Of course, he is applying this particularly to the situation in England.

He goes on to say, "It is more convenient to reserve the term "privilege" to certain fundamental rights of each House," and here again he is referring to England, "which are generally accepted as necessary for the exercise of his constitutional functions." Now this definition has been couched in very carefully chosen words. These words are designed to keep the definition as indefinite as is possible. And we can see the reason for that because if we were to have a very closely defined definition of "privilege" anything else outside that definition would therefore, be not a question of privilege at all.

So the definition and the listing of what are privileges of the House and of its members are deliberately by all 2191C

April 16, 1970 Tape /1500 Page 4 Parliaments kept very indefinite, and the Parliament itself decides if in each particular instance if there is a breach of privilege. In other words all the things that could be breaches of privilege are deliberately JW not catalogued and listed for fear that everything else outside these listings would be classed as not a breach of privilege, when quite easily it could be so~ Now last year, or last summer rather, in this Chamber we had a seminar on the Question of Privilege, and it was led off by one of the authorities I think, in the whole Commonwealth, Mr.

Philip Laundy who conducted this seminar, and his comments, as I think I pointed out before, are to be found in the report of the proceedings of the Tenth Canadian Area Conference, which was held in Newfoundland on July 13, in this Chamber. And his comments I think are very worthy of note. When he opened this seminar or this debate on the subject of privilege, be said this, and I think it is necessary to quote it. I think it should be of interest to every single bon. member. He said, n~arliament has traditionally been reluctant to define its privileges, and there are good historical reasons for this of course.

Parliament has always been anxious to avoid defining its privileges for fear of encroachment to the limits." This of course has led to considerable confusion in the minds of members, let alone the public, as to what really constitutes privilege. Parliement long ago accepted that it would be improper to extend its privileges, and that was some time early in the 1800's.

Parliament long ago accepted that it would be improper to extend its privileges, but at the same time it has always claimed the right to decide for itself whether or not a breach of privilege bas taken place and the absence of a precedent has never been regarded as a reason for deciding that no breach of privilege or contempt of Parliament has taken place. He goes on further to say, "I think one must be aware as to what privilege is designed to do. Broadly speaking, it is designed to protect members in the carrying out of their duties, to protect them from obstruction, intimidation and hinderance.

And at the same time to protect Parliament as an institution from being brought in•n contempt or disrepute. Now in 21!)10

JW April 16, 1970 Tape ff500 Page 5 political terms what he meant today, is that essentially privilege is related to the ancient privilege of freedom of speech, And I think that is worthy of repeating. Now in practical terms what this means today is that essentially, privileges related to the ancient privilege of freedom of speech •• There were three or four of the ancient privileges which are practically the only ones existing at the present time. Freedom of speech and freedom from arrest. It only means arrest in this present age within the confines of the House itself.

As a matter of fact, in Ottawa, a member of the House of Commons was arrested in the grounds no later than I think it was last year. Parliament held that the police were perfectly within their right in arresting him within the precincts. If he had been in the House itself, he could not have been arrested. Outside it was another matter, he was under jurisdiction of the common law, and the laws of the land and not within _the jurisdiction of the House.

And this has been a bearing I think on what I will say a little bit later concerning the difference between words uttered outside the House, and words uttered in the House. He says, "this is not fully understood. I think one only has to read the records of our Parliament and our Legislatures to appreciate this.

Certainly the records of the Canadian Parliament are full of examples, where members have used the cloak of privilege to make personal explanations, to respond to political attacks, to question the accuracy. of newspaper_ :articles, to complain of an unsatisfactory renly to a question, and even for ooenly frivolous purposes.

These abuses of the right to raise a question of privilege has always been very difficult to control, certainly in the Canadian House of Commons, mainly because of the right which has gro~m up for members to advise the Chair as to whether a prima facie case has been made out before the Speaker is called upon to give his ruling. This has made it very difficult for the Chair to control the abuse of the right to raise the question of privilege." On the other hand," he says, 21!11 E

JW April 16, 1970 Tape #500 Page 6 ''many questions of privilege are raised I·Tith serious intent, but which upon examination prove to be nothing of the sort . There is for examrle, considerable confusion in the minds of members be tween Parliamentary privilege and political propriety." So much for that

section of it . Now if hen. members could turn to Beauchesne, to Page 98, at Citation 108 . 2191 F

April 16, 1970 Tape 501 PK-1 MR SPEAKER: they will find this, and this is a further definition as outlined by Canadian authority, as to what he considers to be privilege or a breach of privilege.

Here is what it says: Citation 108, page 98: "Anything which may be considered a contempt of court by a tribunal is a breach of privilege, if perpetrated against Parliament, such as wilful disobedience to or open disrespect of the valid Rules, Orders or Process or the dignity and authority of the House, where by disorderly, contemptious or insolent language or behaviour or other disturbing conduty or by a mere failure to obey its Orders." That is the definition as given by Beauchesne.

He also says, on page 100, down at the centre of Citation 110: "But to constitute a breach of privilege a libel upon a member must concern his character, his conduct, in his capacity as a member, and the conduct or language on which the libel is based must be actions performed or words uttered in the actual transaction of the business of the House.

Bad faith must be imputed and the charge cannot be indefinite." Another thing that we have to remember when we read that from Beauchesne is that he was quoting from what was said in 1701, and there has been a lot ef case law, there has been a lot of breaches of privilege and points of privilege raised in the various parliaments of the Commonwealth since 1701. We have to bear that in mind when we read these sections in Beauchesne.

They were valid in 1701 but there is an entirely different approach toward the matter of privilege, as is evidenced by the fact that nearly every country has set up, every parliament in the Commonwealth has set up committees to enquire into the question of privilege, because it is a vexatious question that comes before Parliament occasionally and the answer to it is very, very unsatisfactory under our present rules and conditions.

There have . to~be some changes made, statutory changes, in order to change ~he Rules that have been established in the past and, as I will point out a little bit later, the reason why this change is so necessary. The United Kingdom Government, a few years ago, set up a select committee on Parliamentary Privilege, to look into the whole question of privilege. I think it was about five or six years ago. They have made certain recommendations 2191 G.

April 16th. 1970 Tape 501 PK - 2 and reported back to the House of Commons in England, and it is such a complicated question, there are so many differences of opinion, that it has ta~en them all these five or six years and their final report on this matter has still not been concluded or presented to the House of Commons for adoption. Some things have been presented.

One of items which this committee has brought before the Conmons is this one: (And this I think shows the change between 1700, and in 1970.) And here is what this committee says on this particular matter, and I am quoting from the Parliamentarian which is the journal of the Parliaments of the Commomvealth. This is the January issue, it is published I think, four times a year.

Thete is what they say about it, "The House should exercise its penal jurisdiction in any event as sparingly as possible and only when it is satisified that to do so, is essentially in order to provide reasonable protection for the House, its members, or its Officers for such improper obstruction or attempt at, or threat of obstruction as is causing or is likely to cause sybstantial interference Hith the performance of their respective function." They go on further to say, "In general, where a member's complaint is of such a nature, that if justified it could give · rise to an action in the court whether or not the defendant would be able to rely on any defense available in the court, it ought not to be the subject of the request of the House to envoke its penal powers. '' May I rearl that again.

" In general where a member's complaint is of such a nature, that if justified it could give rise to an action in the court 'iThether or not the defendant would be able to rely on any defense available in the court, it ought not to be the subject of the request of the House to envoke its penal powers." In particular those powers should :_not in general be envoked in respect of statements alle~ed to be defamatory whether or not a defense or justification, fair comment, etc. would lie." Now that is the r trend, that is what is happening as far as the House of Commons in I I I England is concerned, This is the trend and attitude of the House of Commons in OTTA\~A. 2191 H

April 16th. 1970 Tape 501 PK- 3 I said the other day that very rarely or seldom, I think lvere the words, should a case of a breach of privilege be brought before the House. Now that does not mean breaches of the rules in relation to things that are said within the walls of the House, within the Chamber itself. If we are to note the difficulty in which the various Houses, and Parliaments in the democratic system find themselves, we can ~nderstand the reason why the change is being made gradually with respect to rules governing privilege.

If a person is accused of uttering comment outside the House, and he is brought before the House, I think, as all hon. members will see, the unreasonableness of this. The House is the accuser. It is its own judge and it imposes the penalty. I think in 1970 (or in any age) this is almost an intolerable situation, where the House itself finds itself in the position of being the accuser, of accusing and at the same time giving judgment and also subjecting the person who is accused, if he is found guilty, to a penalty.

This is the reason why all Houses within the Commonwealth, that I know of, who are dealing with this in a serious manner, wish to avoid, if at all possible, the question of privilege being brought before the HO\isl!. As for words uttered outside the House and brought before the House of Commons in England, there has been two cases in the last one hundred years; which shows the inclination on the part of every parliament to avoid privilege breaches, if at all possible. There are times when it is not avoidable, but in the main they should be avoided if possible.

With these remarks in mind, and having heard the statements made by both hon. members, the hon. Member forSt John's . West and the hon. the Premier in reply, I can only say this: Responding to political attacks outside the House and using words which are allefged to be libelous or defamatory has a remedy at law. That person is not denied 2191 I

April 16, 1970 Tape 501 PK-4 MR SPEAKER: his right under the law, but I do think these things should not be brought in and opened as a case of privilege within the House itself. When there is a disagreement between two hon. members as to a question of fact and one says one thing and the other another, then that does not tend to establish a case of privilege that the House should be asked to rule on. Utterances outside the House are not privileged, as are utterances of bon. members within the House.

The member can make thes things his privilege of freedom of speech within the House, outside he has no such privilege, as has been pointed out; and he has recourse to the courts of the land. Therefore, I have to conclude that I cannot find a prime facie case is found in this particular instance. ORDERS OF THE DAY: RON. t-HLLIAM CALLAHAN: (Minister of Mines, A1;riculture and Resources): May I dra'~ to Your Honour's attention and to the attention of the House two matters on a question of accuracy in terms of today's "Evening Telegram".

And, Sir, I may say I agree with the sentiments of the hon. the Premier the other day; the coverage o'f this session by the "Evening Telegram" has been quite outstanding. I can understand this, since yesterday we had a long and wide-ranging question, which it was not possible in the time available to table and which lead to some inaccuracies, which I now wish to draw to the attention of the House and in particular the Press. 21!!1. J

April 16 1970 Tape 502 page 1. the first instance Sir, is, this is on page 15 and a reference to the aerial sprayinp, programme last, this past season. The last paragraph but one, the report says 25 per cent of the cost t~as paid by the two companies, Price NetV"foundland Limited, and Bowaters Pco.per }Jill Limited, 25 p~r cent 't-.TaS paid by Ottmm and Newfoundland paid the remaining fifty perccent. I thought I had made it clear Mr. Speaker, that each of the four parties,ax the Province the Government of Canada and each of the paper compa~ies paid 25 per cent. So the Province actually paid 25 per cent. The next

section of the report has the subheading 't-Thich states 3000 employed on roads. That is quite inaccura~e Mr. Speaker."t-That I explained yesterday in reply to the question of the hon. member for Bonavista North was that the construction and reconstruction of thirty miles of access roads have enabled the employment of some three thousand men in large and small forest industries and I think I ennumerated them as being commercial and domestic pulpwood cutting and saw -milling, it would appear quite ridiculous to suggest that three thousand men were employed at building the roads but they 't-Tere employed working on tvoods O?erations made possible by building roads. In the next

section Mr. Speaker, I t-rish to refer to the second paragraph under Land Granted and Leased. The question of the hon. member for Bonavista North, The question No. 213 in

section 3 referred, asked the trial acreage of pasturelands developed since April 1, The report says that bogland ~ reclamation is no longer in the trial stages. There is some misunderstanding there it is ~o that bogland reclamation no longer is in the trial stages but in fact the question was whether trial acreage of pastureland had been under- taken and then in the next paragraph goes on to· say some 16,516 acres of bar,land were fenced and another 1505 improved. Hhere in each case it should refer to community pastures tvhich are not restricted by any means to bog land. 'Hr. Speaker the same applies to a paragraph further down in that same

section of the report the report is hesaid $240.930 has bee~ spent by the Government on bogland reclamation since April 1, 1969, and t·:hat I in fact reported to the House yesterday in reply to the question was that this amount was spent on community pasture development and that bogland reclamation in that sense no longer is 21n2

April 16 1970 Tape 502 page 2. carried on in the sense :tkxx in which that term must be understood. The second thing 1;fr. Speaker, I should like to draH your attention is the fact that Hansard of Hednesday April 8, does not appear to me to be a complete report. It appears to end at a point where Your Honour advised the House that he would now leave the Chair. It occurs to me Sir, that certain important matters occurred subsequent to that and that in fact the proceeding did not in fact x~:~x end until Your Honour had passed outside the Bar of the House.

I understand that the complete record with the additional matter is on tape, on the official tape recording and it would appear to me that for the sake of accuracy and completeness that additional matter should be included in the report. I would so move ~r.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: i!. shall ask the Editor of Debates to look into the matter. }!R. HURPHY: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question, officially when does the recording of the House cease, when the bon. Speaker leaves the Chair, is that then the completion of the business of the House.

Or does the tape continue and take all conversations that happen after His Honour has left the Chair?

Or does he get the }!R.SPEAKER: I could not give you, I know that the question is not addressed to the Chair and the hon. member does not ask, but I will for his benefit say that as far as I can understand the tape runs until the ~ace has been carried out of the Chamber, now, I do not know if that happens in all instances or , but I know that the master tape continues on until the Mace is out of the Chamber but the Hansard tapes when they get to the stage where I say this House stands adjourned they cut it off there, but the master tape is kept on until the mace is out of the Chamber. ORDERS OF THE DAY: hiR.

CALLAHAN : For the information of the House, Sir, is it Your Honour's rulinp, that the session indeed, the House is still in session until Your Honour has rassed outside of the Bar of the House. I think that is the material point. HR. SPEAKER: lfuen I say that the House stands adjourned as I understand it, I say the House stands adjourned this Assembly is still, the House !s adjourned officially , but while the Mace is still on the Table and until the Sergeant - at - Arms has taken the ~ace outside the Bar of the House, this House is officially in session.

April 16 1970 Tape 502 page 3- ~ · ORDERS OF THE DAY: The adjourned debate on the Address in Reply: MR.HURPHY: }!r. Speaker, as the Hou3e is aware I . spend a few moments on Tuesday I think discussing a few matters that I figures were of some concern not only to us in the House here but to all the people of our Province. I do not wish to rehash all of these matters again, although some of them were very important and might need ~ to be repeated.

But there is, I did not arise on a point of privilege on this particular matter yesterday and that was/~eporting in the Evening Telegram where I had discussed in my ~pinion what a function the Newfoundland Con~tabulary could perform as a provincial ~olice Force and my feelings on the reatter of having a well-trained very active group of young men who '\o70uld not only perform perhaps the day to day work of a policeman but perhaps some aid in many other matters in our smaller settlements throughout the rrovince.

At the same time I suggested that I felt in vie'-1 of the great upsurge in delinquency and disrespect for law occurring and I referred to St. John's at that time, and I would also perhaps include Corner Brook and perhaps some of the larger areas in my statement. My feeling that it is time here in the City of St . John's that our Police Force should be split into precints perhaps attached to our different Fire Stations in different areas of the tmm.

Now, in the report in the Te;!zgram I think it is mentioned the C.I.D .,.rhich is as we know it the Cri~inal Investigation Department of the Constabulary, but what I said ,,as the Constabulary {lnd perhaps suggest that it did not do much damage to what I had sa:id but I would just like to explain nm-1 that I feel if the constabulary I am referring to, where '"e e!'>tablish three, four, five precints 1>--.ithin the Cit7 of St.

John 1 s and we would break the actual force dotvn into four or five sections, and at each precint perhaps there would be in charge a head constable with ten or twelve constables serving that particular area. permanently without doing other sectio~s of the city and I believe quite f~ankly that it .,.muld be a meanssof our policetr .en becoming familiar td th the different areas, tvith the people living in -the areas and t·rould be a great deterrent to the disrespect not only for law and order that is creeping into our society but disresnect for nroperty and for other .people. I would just like to co~rect that

April 16 1970 Tape 502 page 4 item Mr. Speaker. Another matter ~!r. Speaker I am very much concerned Hith is the image that this Hon. House is projecting to the people of our Province. I for one Mr. Speaker, am serving my eighth year here in this Hon. Assembly. I felt when I •ras elected to this House in 1962, perhaps it was the greatest privilege that could be bestov1ed on any Ne"Tfoundlander to be elected by his fellow citizens to take a seat in this non. House. I have said on many occasions that I do not Hish to become too political, although politics must enter into our conversations in this House.

I have tried Sir, to the best of my ability to refrain from becoming personally involved ~vith any member although there are times when I mention certain things in this House, perhaps mention them indigiduals who are personal friends of mine.

But I only do it 'vith the purpose of pointing out v:hich in my opinion is not in the best interest of the P Province • They may be questions of patronage to individuals, there have been some cases where certain individuals have been appointed to our civil service who I felt had the same right, but no more right than any other individual to be put into a job., without going through the proper channels. But Hr.

Speaker, I would like to go on record now, and I have not been buttered up, or syruped up, or anything else, by the propaganda the statements that I hear on radio every day v1here we have t'vo parties under the same name and perhaps a prefix before one of them, Tv70 Liberal Parties in this Ron. House and I just want to make the position clear that I have heard statements that the Independent Liberals and the Tories are obstructing Lhe business of this House. Now this is a matter of opinion to_an awful lot ofppeople as far as I am concerned, and I speak for the PC. Party and I am very proud of it at this moment.

To say that ~•e have never tried to obstruct Hilfully infentionally the business of this Hon. House. I think we all must be aware Mr. Speaker, of what has happened in the past year or perhaps eight, ten six months, where a great revolution occurred within one of the parties of this House and it v1as not the Conservative Party. Certain people felt that they could no longer remain on that side of the House, that is thete o~vn opinion, I do not question it, anyway 2105

April 16, 1970, Tape 503, Page 1 -- apb HR. A.J.NURPilY: Their opinions. We have had up to this present moment some very exciting moments in the House and I think I have said it before nad I ~~ill say it again, that this House has been crowded pretty w·ell every session. People come being humans, human beings to see what row is goint to be taking place in the House of Assambly today. It is like thw hockey games, unless there is a lot of boarding or a lot of slashing and so on and so forth the game was not too hot tonight. Perhaps Hr. Speaker, HR. R.Oi~E (F.H.): That is not the only reason surely? HR.

HURPHY: We have forgotten the science or the reason that He are ip. this House, and I say we, because I am just as much a part of this House as anybody else. The only reason we are sent here is to work for the districts 1ve represent. There has been a great change this year in the House A;.'{ l!O~.

HE~IBER: problems The Province as a lvhole as 1vell -- as the districts and the HR. 1-1URPHY: Well I could add that as Hell, but if we represent the people who sent us here, and we are all voted by forty-one districts, there are forty-two members, and forty-one districts send us here to represent each particular district, well I think basically we must be here as a whole to represent all the people of Ne1·1foundland. I think quite seriously that is right because, I do not only vote on what concerns the district of St. John's Centre, but I vote and talk on things that concern other parts of the Province. Hr.

Speaker, and we have been saying this for many years, 1vith reference to the Government side of the House t.•hich · has been in pm.;er for so many years, that they almost think that it is a God given right that they should remain there. That they are above criticism. This year on our Order Paper I can say have appeared, literallu hundreds of questions to be asked, to be an~ .. ered rather, perhaps more than the smaller Opposition we had for some years have managed to come up with but there are reasons Mr. Speaker, for more questions being asked.

Perhaps more ill feelings between members because, as I said earlier we must re member 21!

H) April 16, 1970, Tape 503, Page 2 -- apb this great revolution that took place', in 1969 and perhaps a few months before that, for certain members of the Government party, the Government side of the House, decided they could stnad it no longer. They crossed to this side of the House.

He 1vere very honoured to have two of these outstanding gentlemen, former Cabinet Ministers, senior Cabinet Hinisters, choose to sit 1~i th the Conseravti ve ~arty 1vhich has been the official Opposition fo.:r:!"wenty­ one years, and I refer to the hon. member for Fortune Bay, the former }finister of Finance, Education and I believe Welfare in the department, in the Government. The Hon. member for Burin V.'ho 1vas former Minister of Justice and combined both portfolios of Justice and Health, I am very proud that they choose to sit with us.

Now there were other members, I think numbering five, who decided that they could not sit, or would not sit, or did not want to sit with the Conservative Party, who sat as independent liberals, and my hon. friend from Labrador who decided to sit as a leader perhaps of the Independent Labrador Party or what ever it is being called, it is being called many names rather disrespectfully by people on the other side of the House, but I feel he choose it to be known as the Independent Labrador Party. Now I have no quarrel with our friends next door, that is their wish that they sit as independent liberals.

It has been suggested to me perhaps that the official Opposition is being perhaps a little upstaged or downstaged in this session. They do not hear too many rumbles from me who inherited the very important and honourable position as Leader of the Opposition. They say our members seem to be somewhat quiet, but I '~ould like to explain Mr. Speaker, it is not for lack of interest. We are not being led by the nose as the bon. minister infers.

Perhpas it is a natural condition on that side but it has not yet permeated this side, but I think in pretty well every case where there was a vote taken I think you found the combined Opposition voting for these things. MR. ROWE (F.W.): Surprise~ surprise; 1vhat else is new? i'!R. NURPIIY: It was no surprise ~1r. Speaker, but the actual facts are, how happy, how pleased we are to see hon. gentlemen who a few short years ago

April 16, 1970, Tape 503, Page 3 -- apb were the knights on the \vhi te chariots on the other side of the House. Now as I say, it is not my wish to become personal, but I can remember quite distinctly and I do not know if it was August or Spetember of 1966,(we are in here four years, it seems like about fifty) but I remember the hon.member for St. John 1 s West \vho a short few months before had been elected almost unanimously, and I say here again, and I have said it before that I supported the bon. gentleman to the St.

John's Hunicipal Council, he came in and I think he v7as full of beans at the time as we \>!Ould say, to do a tremendous job for the city of St. John's. He was at the time I \vould say the outstanding figure Vith all due respects to the Mayor of St. John'

s) the outstanding figure on the St. John 1 s Municipal Council. I think he Has a sort of the member that v7as pushing. I think it was August or September v1here Hr.

Jim Greene was Leader of the Opposition at the time \vho phoned !Tle and asked me if I would attend a function at the trades school ~vhere the Premier was going to unveil another great step to benefit the Province of He\vfoundland and this \vas the creation, and I may be just a little bit out on some of the details, but basically I think I am right on the facts, at that time I believe it was decided that we \-70uld set up a ho1,1sing department within the Provincial Government.

I think it •·ms split at the time, I think the hon. gentleman next to him now was the one that was responsible for, (was it Hunicipal Affairs and Housing at that time?) pardon me if I am just a little bit vague on the names, but it is like the Cabinet minister says I said from time to time, He should get different uniforms for different departments so we \vould know just who is \vho at this moment. The point I \·las trying to make, here was the hon. member perhaps at that time, and still is I \vould say one of our outstanding citizens. I think \ve had some thing like 700 people at this do.

It was one of the largest crmvds I have seen for this announcement. The hon. Premier stood there on that stage, and the premier •.;ras eloquent, very eloquent everybody knoHs that. I certainly \vish I had one per cent of his eloquence v7hen I speak in here today.

April 16, 1970, Tape 503, Page 4 -- apb And he introduced, unveiled if you like to all the people of Ne\Jfoundland the hon . member for St . John's Nest. MR. NEARY: God child HR. HURPHY: l•lho is Cod's child? HR . , EAP..Y : He brought him up HR. }[TRPHY : Oh, 'the Premier's God child, I was not aware of that . I t.)'as \~Ondering where this gre a t fondness comes in.

The hon. member was introduced that day and I say to myself, "He:j.J. here is oue man, the Premier has gone over them all, he has named them all Richard Cashin , the hon .• linister of Education, I do not know h01.)' many more twuld be his successor~' but all I said. "this i ·s it, this is th.e man for sure picked out, brought up there. " I do not knoH if He had our dinner that evening, no, I thin..lc. \·le just had a cup of coffee and a bun or something.

I do not think it called for one of those great celebrations t hat we have had over the vears, that I used to call "dinners for the libera l poll captains." like they were called state dinners. I vould 1to get hold ....•.••.•.... 2199

uaw April 16th., 1970 Tape no. 5::>4 Page 1 I would like to get a hold of th~ list some day. But, Mr. Speaker, this was the usual pattern that has been followed over the years. The hon. member is introduced and he took over and this was it. Well as everybody in this House knows one of the things that I am always preaching about or arguing about is the lack of housing. I could see with the advent of this young wonder-boy or wonder-man a: the . time,this was it, that the plans~ that were unvailed •••• MR. SMALLHOOD: Conference numbe:- twelve. MR. MURPHY: I beg your pardnn. MR. SHALLWOOD: Conference number twelve.

MR.. :!-IDRPHY: Conference numbe.r twelve. I think his white stead must have gotten the spavin or something. The hon. member never knows. But, Mr. Speaker, this was the story at that time. I think it was in just about two short years, the bon. member became some~mat disillu~ioned rthat what if was happening - We cannot hear it all, because some of these gentleman were allowed to talk, you know, but we have this Cabinet secrecy, but this was a matter, I think, that broke, that came out quite openly. It was on the $5 million bridge financing.

The hon. gentleman broke, and he came to this side with, he was a Hinister without Portfolio, the hon. member for Humber East. Both these young gentlemen came over here. :t-1R. NEARY: Last year was, "Rat ._: on your party year." ~· MURPHY: Last year was, "Rat on your party year." That is a very nice quotation, a very nice quotation. These are some of the things, Hr. Speaker, that hit the headlines, these beautiful expressions, rats and this type of thing. But two hon. members came to this side and as it happened, the hon. member for St. John 1 s 'lo7ent back again. He had his mm reasons for that.

But then came the great, the greatest, the biggest show that was ever put on in this Province. I do not know \vhy it did not get mentioned in the Academy Awards last week, rrecause it definitely did rate ••. -~-_f_~O-~B_~_:_ - Calgary Stampede. 2200

April 16th., 1970 Tape no. 504 Page 2 _HR_ . _1-_~RP..:..H__::Y __ : _ _ The Calgary Stampede someone said. This came along and then we had a great number, not a great number possibly but some members of the Cabinet "t.7ho had, I believe, taken the Premier at his word, ~vho for many years said that he was going to step down. There was a great announcement made. I had the clipping only the other day. I believe it was 1956, during the election, when roy hon. friend - did I say 1956?

It was 1966, "1hen my hon. friend the Hinister of Education, I think there Premier was a big meeting in Grand Falls, where the introduced, I do not know it in so many ~·mrds, but his successor, of course, this was during an election and I do not know if the same speech was made in the forty-one districts, but I know it was a good .••• HR. FRED Rm,TE: Correction. HR. MURPHY: I certainly would like to be corrected. Ma. SPEAKER: Order please. HR. 1--IURPHY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The~oTh minister has a chance to speak after, so he can correct it. I do not ~•ish to say anything, Sir, willfully that is wrong.

I 'vould like to be corrected. The hon. minister speaks next. So, Hr. Speaker, these are some of the matters that perhaps have created some of the goings-on in this House during this past fe~v months, and I l>dll get back again to the - they are called defectors. They are called traitors, They are called rats, but I will call them hon. gentlemen who in their own wisdom decided that they could no longer sit •.• HR. EARLE; ·~ ' .. These are the rats . who are not fighting. MR. MURPHY: lfuo could not sit on that side ••• AN HON.

MEMBER: The advice the hon. gentleman has for the 29th? 'HIL MURPHY : The 25th., I am a little disappointed. I thought I would be invited to be the guest speaker, but I am not even invited to attend. But, Mr. Speaker, to get back to, and I am now talking about the image of this House. Hany, many questions have been placed on the 6rder Paper. ~!any, many questions, and on Hednesday, they were answered in the fullest detail. I think they even put in the full points and the commas that 2201

April 16th., 1970 Tape no. 504 Page 3 we hear so much about, because and I think the people of the Province are aware of this: that the people asking these ~uestions now, were at one time playing with the other team. They were perhaps put in the bull pen temporarily to warm up to take over in another few months. I thought I would say the bull pen rather than the penalty box.

These questions are aimed nuw at Government branches and, as I said much earlier, I am not repeating myself that this Opposition at the time were not in a position to get information even to ask questions on so consequently, there has been a little - perhaps this is not the word to use.

There has been a considerable amount of friction created betHeen the Premier and I do not know, if my bon. friend has yet been ordained as leader, but I think someone mentioned hiLm as the chief of the Independent Liberals and it is almost at a stage now where it has just become a personal battle, rather than the official Opposition or the Opposition against the Government.

Now you speak to people on the street and you g.et phone calls of what we are endeavouring to do in this House of Assembly, ~rith the people's House, with the very serious business that we have to perform, duties we have to perform h~re and we listen to statements made on radio, and I do not know, I have to refer to it. I guess I am perfectly free to comment on this matter of privilege; although, it is ruled on. I am not trying to reverse it but just to comment on it and the effect it has on the operation of the business of this House, and I am in possession of a report of the proceedings that the hon.

Speaker read from, and he gave his decision, and hils decision is what stands in this bon. House. There was just one particular paragraph, Hr. Speaker, that I noted~here, and I ~muld just like to comment on it. That is with regard to privilege. It \>Tas rather a significant one in my opinion and I think it went right to the point of what has been happening. He is referring to•.''the provinces presumably have similar legislation providin~ for the privileges of the legislators. I think one- must be aware as to what privilege is desiened to do. nroadl~ speakin?,, it is designed to protect members in the 2202

April 16th., 1970 Tape no. 504 Page 4 carrying out of their duties, to protect them, to protect them from obstruction, intimidation and hinderance and at the same time to protect parliament as an institution from being brought into contempt or disrepute. To me that is the most significant sentence in that and when we listen, when we listen to hon. members, one being the hon. the Premier, referring to an hon. member of this hon. House as being sick! sick! sick! Imputing, in my opinion, that is the impression that I got, that the hon. member was ~ot mentally competent. AN HON. ME}ffiER: Politically sick. MR.

MURPHY: There is no politically in this. Sick! in other words, he is not mentally competent. Well if that is designed to protect members in the carrying out of their duties, Mr. Speaker, I fail to see it. Quite honestly I fail to see it, because after all, if the impression is abroad that there is someone here that is not mentally well, that is mentally retarced or mentally something else .-··the hon. Speaker laughs, I know it must be some sort of a little, I am not referring to the hon. Premier personally.

But to listen to some of the stuff that we hear on radio, such dribble such rot, such stupid statements you hear, would turn your stomach, and I say that quite sincerely. It would turn your stomach to think that we, all of us here, supposed to have some measure of common sense and sit down in the mornings, or drive along in your car and hear some of the dribble that we hear over this program emanating from a radio station. God help us 2203

April 16th, 1970 MR. MURPHY: Tape 505 JM- 1 I wonder what kind of an opinion people from outside the Province has, the outport people here. And then, Mr. Speaker, on the other side we have another hon. member come back and make almost the same accusations and invite a qualified psychiatrist or suggest that a qualified psychiatrist be invited to have a test on the hon. member for St. John's West and on the Hon. Premier to decide just which one is mental. I am speaking now, the hon. members . opposite, this is typical of what has been happening here for twenty years.

You get thirty-five or thirty-eight members over there leering at you because you try to bring some respect into this Hon. Chamber. This is the type of stuff. I \dsh we did have cameras to sho"tol the expressions on some of the faces of the members opposite. MR. BARBOUR: Do not include me, Sir. MR. MURPHY: I could not include my hon. friend. He is in my district and I am looking after him. This is some of the stuff, Mr. Speaker, that we have been putting up with, I have for the past eight years and a lot of people on this side for the last twenty years.

There was men sat here as Leaders of the Opposition who had more brains than the whole lot on the other side put together and I say that unqualifiedly. AN HON. MEMBER: Geniuses. MR. HURPHY: Geninuses is right, geninuses. Absolute geninuses, Newfoundlanders, good qualified Newfoundlanders. MR. S'MALLHOOD: Full many a flower is born to blush unseen and waste its fragrance in the Opposition. MR. MURPJIT: That is right, that is right. But we will find out why very shortly, Mr. Speaker, and the shorter the term the better, how long we will be in Opposition or someone else will be in Opposition.

And I say this quite seriously because for the first time, for the first time in twenty years outside of the one or two and I read one here yesturday the hon.Dr. Pottle who had the guts to get on his feet and tell the Hon. Premier that he disagreeded with squandering the peoples money, throwing it away on foolish, foolish industries 2204

April 16th, 1970 Tape 505 JM- 2 MR. MURPHY: and you read back and you read some of the great names Senewald, Braun Wogan, and so on, all great men were going to make this Province Heaven itself and where is it all gone1 Let us be perfectly frank, let us be perfectly honest and I do not think I am being politically unfair to mention these things. t{hat has been happening in this Province? To give you some idea of this great democratic Province, Mr. Speaker, it was only the other day I had a man come in to visit me under this beautiful, under this beautiful looking democratic institution.

Look at it, look at it , That is the Alcoholic's Liquors Act. AN HON. MEMBER: That is democracy. MR. MURPHY: If that is democracy I will just show you how democratic it is. I had a gentleman come in to me who has a lovely place, not in my district, not in St. John's, I addressed a letter to the Board of Liquor Control attention Mr. Vincent, I have the letter from him some~o1here here, this gentleman told me he had applied on four occasions - a restaurant license, a hotel license, a tavern license and an agent's license, and could not get either one of them with no reason given.

I wrote the Department and said, he was not in my district, I do not know if he is a liberal, a P.C., a new democrat or he might be with the hon. member for Labrador, he might be one of the vice-presidents of his party I do not know, and I wrote this Department and I received a letter back from him and he referred me that this man had already been told on many occasions and the reasons given why he did not get his license. He did not explain the reasons but he said under

Section twenty- three of the Alcoholic Liquors Act, listen to it - not withstanding anything in this Act the Board shall not be compelled to issue any permit or license under this Act and may refuse, suspend or cancell any such permit or license in its discretion and shall not be ob.liged to give any reason or explanation for such refusal, suspension or cancellation. There is democracy for you. They can come in, they can close your tavern, they can put you out of business and not give a reason. 2205

April 16th, 1970 MR. MURPHY: Tape 505 JM - 3 We have a Bill that is not yet proclaimed, it is called the Human Rights Code, not yet proclaimed I do not think. I read it through and everybody under the sun is guaranteed protection under this Human Rights Code, colour, creed, race, black, white, brown, yellow , blue but no one word in it of political implication, not one mentioned an~~here that I could find. The point I am making, Mr.

Speaker, when I say politics and liquor this is what I am referring to and we know the story on it, I have been preaching here for years of the terrible, terrible treatment of good honest-to-God Newfoundlanders who have preferred perhaps not to go out and campaign for this great liberal party. Perhaps they are not poll captains, perhaps they are not canvassers but under democratic rule and in this Province, Mr. Speaker , ! say they have as much right to have a beer license, an agent's license or whatever you will as anybody else and let anybody on that side deny it.

I ask anybody to deny that they are right to do it. Mr. Speaker, if ever there was an ornament on the face of the earth that is costing money, it is the Newfoundland Liquor Commission. If I am ever elected to Government and I ever have the power to do it I would sweep it so far out the narrows you would never hear of it again. I said in this Hon. House and I will say it again, the Bon. Minister of Health referred to me as a beer peddler.

I was a beer peddler for ten years, a salesman of a brewery and by heavens almighty they talk about things happening in this world some of the things that I saw happening with individuals on the spot would just turn your stomach completely for certain people were persecuted, we have had cases of them, because they did not conform, conform to what, reason, dignity, run their place right, no, no consideration, Mr. Speaker, you just had to be in.

There are people today and we have ask questions on this and never received the answers and we are going to demand that we get the answers, names of tavern owners, names of so and so, you will get a sweet name as I said here the other day and I am speaking on the same thing. The Happy Valley Motor Club or the some other club, who owns these licenses. It would be a 2206

April 16th, 1970 MR. HURPHY: Tape 505 JM- 4 revelation to find out who owns some of these license and how many they own, it would be a revelation but you will find their .names, Mr. Speaker, you will find their names high on the list of the hierarchy. There is your democracy,

Section twenty-three, they explained to the man why he could not get his license. They said you cannot get your license because we do not have to tell you why you cannot get your license. Is that basically what he says, any lawyer read this? Right. This is democracy, this is it. We had more elections in this Province now than Kellogg got corn flakes. But, Mr. Speaker, this to me over the years and I may sound like a broken record as our hon. and intellectual and magnificent Hinister of Mines, Agriculture and Resourses says, may sound like a broken record, but these are some of the things, Mr.

Speaker, we talk about the right to live, the right to this, the Bill of Rights, everybody not withstanding in this Province providing he meets certain standards has as much right to a liquor license, a public health license, I do not think the Public Health bars a man from selling unless he does not conform the regulations or they give him the reason why. They tell him your barn is dirty, I am talking about selling milk or any­ thing like this the premises must be kept clean. But this is it, Mr.

Speaker, these are some of the reasons perhaps one of the reasons why this party has been kept in power for so many years, these are one of the reasons. You pick up the great Liberal Ball Program and this is repetit'ion but it is still true. One year we counted something over 101 acts, it looked like a Who's Who, in liquor vending in Newfoundland. The Conservatives had one shortly after, how many acts do you think they got, guess, start at three and come down? None. Why? Is there no fear? Someone said there is no fear in this Province, no fear. You get your t~venty-five dollars.

Look, just put in as a friend, - MR. NEARY: The hon. leader has it in here, right down here. MR. MURPHY: I was looking for a copy of it, I have to get one. We are getting our program ready now for our Leadership Convention. Has the hon. minister got 2207

Apri l 16th, 1970 MR. MURPHY: Tape 505 JM- 5 a copy in his possession. I would like to have one. He will be watching, oh yes. The Premier you know - MR. CHALKER (J.R.): By the way is . that going to be on television, I wonder? MR. MURPHY: What is that? MR. CHALKER (J.R.): The Leadership Convention. MR. MURPHY: Will it be on television? ! · certainly hope so. If we have to pay for it, it will not be. 2208 •·

April 16th. 1970 Tape 506 PK - 1 MR. HURPHY: ••••. gladly~ - be free. }ffi. ROBERTS: Will it be taken the place of Roland! Martin? MR. MURPHY: Roland }!art :in? No I do not think, that is RSgetta Day, you hear Martin Roland's. But, Hr. Speaker, you know for twenty years this side of the Hoase has been talking about this is one of the things, or many, many dozens of things, that have been happening in this Province. The other day I brought up the great Real Estate Deal.

Here again, and I mentioned it the other day, and I am just repeating it, how owns this place in a certain place that we are paying $9.00 a square foot for? Oh, the Royal Trust Company. We do not know who owns it, but the Royal Trust Company, who of course, cannot tell ~s. How owns it, we will find out someday, I hope. We will find out. We have this great building in Corner Brook and must say it is a beautiful building and I think the people of Corner Brook deserve it. But we heard the great announcement on this building, we have a Cabinet Room, Mr. Speaker, in that building. I presUMe, Mr.

Speaker, you were in the House the same as I was, the hon. Mr. Speaker was in the House the same as I was, where this great democracy Government where going to bring Government to the people. Bring it to the people, regularly we are going to have our Cabinet meetings in Corner Brook, how many did we have? How many meetings did we have in the building? I have some facts on this Corner Brook one? I ~vould love to see a building in Corner Brook.

I "muld love to see it, but of the millions of dollars that were ~vas ted on it, I would like to see what sbfficent and practical for Corner Brook to be there, and the rest of the money_ perhaps to help people to build homes of their own instead of a great big show piece. You know there is a name on the building in Corner Brook, but I would not say it here. The hon. members have heard it. The building in Corner Brook, which is a public building, Hr. Speaker, was approximately $2.5 million, these are answers we get from questions.

It is presently being occupied by a total of eighty-five civil servants, in various departments~of Government, eighty-five and the building cost $2.5 million. HR. NEARY The hon. member for Humber East there is nothing outside of St. John's. The hon. member for Humber East tells us everything is in St. John's. 2209

April 16th. 1970 Tape 506 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Is there a Government Building in Corner Brook? MR. MURPHY: I am going to describe it to the hon. Minister now in a minute. MR. NEARY: Good. MR. MURPHY: The Building in addition to the office space for the eighty-five, includes a library. The library takes up of course, which I will talk about later on. It is occupied by eighty-five people, divided into the cost of the building amounts to approximately $24,000 per person.

Here in this building and we say there are 1500 employeEs, and I think there are an awful lot more, than that in this building, cost $7.5 million, and~that is a cost $5,000 for employees, and that is the very, very minimum number I would say. And in addition in this building, we have the House of Assembly here, which is the People's House, all this went into the $7.5 million •.• ~m. ROWE(FJW): They were not built the same time though were they? MR. SMALLWOOD: No. MR. MURPHY: I doubt if they were? MR. ROHE: That makes a little difference.

MR. }lliRPHY: It makes a difference becuase it was not built in 68, that was only eighty-five people out there, and 1500 in here. MR. ROWE: No, the cost, the huge cost. MR. }lliRPHY: Oh, the cost? I am just trying to get on the rental basis of space for each one worker in the Corner Brook Building. It cost approximately $130,000 a year to operate it. Interest on our loan cost us about $150,000 depreciation. So it adds up to a total of about $330,000 in the annual cost of the Corner Brook Building. And this is about $4,000 per year paid out in rent for each and every employee in the building.

Space occupied, and this is where we must be practical. Here we are in this building here and the Minister of Public Works and the Premier has made statements, that there should be an extension put on it. But instead of that, we have gone into the big Real Estate Field, with Philip Place, with Gordonna in on the road, I just forget the gentleman's name who knows it, but I think he is rather close to the party opposite. I do not know how much we are paying in there. I mentioned I think, it was yesterday or the day before that we were paying a $140,000 22~0

April 16th. 1970 Tape 506 PK - 3 MR. MURPHY: a year rent for the Power Commission approximately, and the newspaper quoted me as $110,000, that is $140,000. We have the Horkmen's Compensation over there, we have a Liquor Store there, and also a Federal Government Post Office. MR. CHALKER: Is the hon. gentleman referring now to Corner Brook, or ••••• 'HR. HURPHY: I am just referring no~-1 to the fact of the space in this building, for employees ~-1hich is 730 square feet, per person in this public building in Corner Brook. MR. CHALKER: Is that the total area you are taking? MR.

HURPHY: This is an area approximately 750 feet per person, the building 22,000 square feet. MR. CHALKER: I ~wnder if the hon. gentleman saw the answer to the question put there today on regarding that building asked by the hon. member from Gander, I think there is 22,000 or ~ 23,000 feet not allocated ~~hich is including a library, and I think a courthouse,and the area allocated through the R.C.M.P. which obtained that for nothing, I mean if you take that you have got a much less space to work ~vith. MR. HURPHY: Well, this is the day w·e got the samples. As the hon. member knows Mr.

Speaker, this was prepared a couple of days ago, we find that in the building there are approximatEly 22,000 square feet of unoccupied space, a~d I think this is what t~e hon. member . said, which is evidently not been rented by Government to outside people. We are looking for such space this does not seem to be an economic principle on which to operate. HR. CHALKER: Nr. Speaker there is no space in that building as of this moment that I know of. MR. MURPHY: The hon.

Minster now may be perfectly right, these were notes that were taken from answers to questions that we had been proved with, and we tried to figure out the cost per rent basically, this is what you figure out, what the building is costing us. The density the number of people occupying the building so on and so forth. So from answers that we had, and this can be updated as of present, the answers we had~ there were approxiamtely 730 square feet for every person \vho works in the building. 2211

April 16th. 1970 Tape 506 Pk - 4 MR. CHALKER: The hon. gentleman has tftken any of the answers from the press has he? MR. MURPHY: Hell, as I say this is to ••• when I revie~v I will be only too happy to correct it in the budget debate, when we are on the Public Works Estimates. But here we are with this great, and the point that I am trying to get across again, is this great surge of announements, Corner Brook is going to get this great big building, and so on and so forth, and we build a building out there, and I do not for a moment deny Corner Brook a public building. But, why build a building, Mr.

Speaker, that is three times too large for the needs, you got a Cabinet Room out there, I douut if there was ever one, and I may be wrong, one Cabinet meeting held there as such. MR. CHALKER: Mr. Speaker, will the hon. member mind, when this building here was complete, I think it '"as 1960, I forget the exact date, we estimated that this building would look after the needs of the civil service and the Government for the Hext twenty years, I think it was a matter of five or six years, and '"e had to go outside for space. And I must say, Hr.

Speaker, too, with permission of the hon. gentleman, I can see that happening in Corner Brook, with Stephenville and all those other places,at least we will have ample space available to put in more civil servants in this building instead of having to build another building. MR. MURPHY: Oh absolutely, at that footage · .here, it is going to be good for the next 335 years. MR. CHALKER: •••••••.•••••• office space. HR. J>nJRPHY: I am referring to the office space, yes.

But, you know, '"hen we get on with the big announcements and the Cabinet is going to meet here regularly, we want to make Corner Brook, you know just the same as St. John's, this same old political propagenda, we raise monuments out there, and nm.: in Grand Falls I think, we have much the same thing, I do not know, is the building open out there yet? May be it is just about opened, I think they had a little trouble Hith the building out there. But, Mr. Speaker, these are some of the criticisms that have been brought from this side of the House 2212

April 16th. 1970 Tape 506 PK - 5 NR. NURPIIY: over the years, and everything was justified by the Government side. But we still think that there has been a lot of money that has been wasted, we are not one of the have provinces that have lots of money, that ,.e could throw af:ay, I think the hon. !-lin is ter of Helfare for example '•ould like to have some of that $2 . 5 million that was spent in Corner Brook for this buildin g. Surely as a political gitnr.1ick, perhaps to provide homes for some of the very , very, urge cases that he has had brou ght to his attention. But, Hr.

Speaker, I am not at all pleased to get back to '•hat is happening in this · hon. House. i''e do not wish to be coded as obstructing the business of this House, we will go along to the best of our ability with what is happening in this hon. House. I think someone mentioned yesterday that all we need is co-operation, and a measure of trust in each other, and what is happening, and I am going eo refer, I can I presume refer to "'hat bad happened in this House yesterday . And explain my

part iniit 2213

April 16, 1970 Tape f/507 Page 1 HR. HURPHY: where a Motion was put on the Order Paper by the Government. There was one on for the member for Humber East with reference to opening on 1-Jednesday night. I was approached as leader of the official Opposition. Would I be prepared to allmv this motion to come in because as the han. the Speaker kno\vS, to bring in a measure .like that, which is not a Government measure as said by the Government, but actually it is a Government measure brought in by government - they do not want to defeat it.

That we would be prepared to back it because it had ,:to have two-thirds of the House to ' put it through. The han. leader of the House came to my office in here and Jlv asked me and I said, \ve are nrepared if you, the han. minister \vould guarantee that on 1-Jednesdays, there wotUd be no Hotion made that the House rise at six o'clock. And \vith all the arguing we had yesterday Nr. Speaker, about this Hotion providing, it was already built in that we meet on Hednesclay night.

We knew that, but there was nothing in the world to prevent the leader of the House from getting up next Wednesday and any \7ednesday and saying the House \vould rise at six o'clock. HR. SHALLHOOD: Point of order! That debate "as concluded. The hon. gentleman or any han. gentleman \vill be permitted to refer to it next Session, next year, not in the remainder of this Session. The debate con­ cluded yesterday. The vote was tak;m, it was disposed of. I hold that it is completely out of order to reviv~ the matter nm-r. HR. CROSBIE: :-rr.

Speaker, on that point of order, in the Address in Reply a member is free to touches on any subject he wishes. That has been the practice in this House. I submit that the han. member who is speakinf.! should not be restricted. HR. S:·lALUJOOD: Hr. Speaker, in a :natter that has been de"alt \vith and disnosed of in a Session at no point thereafter in anv kind of a speech, on any t:ind of a matter, may the matter be revived. It has been dealt Nith by the House - it is not a matter that is to be dealt with, but a matter that has been dealt with and disoosed of and closed. It is \vrong to revive it.

Th~re is no rule of Parliamentary procedure clearer than that Your Honour, no rule. 2214

JW April 16, 1970 Tape !f507 Page 2 MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, with respect to that point the matter in question has not been disposed of. The matter in ouestion is going to come up every l~ednesday during this Session. The matter is not disposed of. HR. SPEAKER: Order please! I think the Chair ruled yesterday and dreH attention to the members that debates cannot be revived.

With regard to the Address in Reply - actually the rules relating to that debate are no different from the rules relating to any other debate, except that by the nature of the Hotion before the House, the territory or the field Hhich can be covered is different. i'-1embers are not permitted to say whatever they like in the Address in Reply. But the ooint of order taken is that the hon. member is not permitted to revive the debate, and that is a good point of order. HR. HURPHY: Hr. Speaker, these are some of the things that makes this Fouse such a lovely place to be you know. People rising on a point of order.

You cannot talk about this, you cannot talk about that. This is somethinp. ~fr. Speaker, that affects me as a member of this House ~<•i th reference to an agreement made, and I think I have a perfect right to justify myself. If dealing ~.;ith a matter, so all we have to do is get up and discuss it, then 1 no one else can discuss what is happeninp, to this House, to the rules of this House. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member had his opportunity yesterday to speak on the debate before the House yesterday, and the rule is quite clear that it cannot be revived.

On the other hand it is possible sometimes to have to touch on something that was said in some other way, but not to revive the debate. HR. ~!URPHY : Thank you ~tr. Sneaker, I accept Your ruling. I know that the hon. Sneaker of this House has had a very turbulent passage this trin. Rut I will just deal briefly Hith the rules of this House with Standing Orders. Our reasons for doing certain things and objecting to certain things, and I may be permitted to do these things I presume - presuming I do not get into a debate on a debate that has been closed. And that is the impression that 2215

JW April 16, 1970 Tape /f507 Page 3 is left, but a great many people that this Opposition is too lazy to work. They will not ~vork overtime. I heard the hon. the Premier this morning Mr. Speaker, tell the radio stations hm-1 he sits in his seat and has done it for the past twenty-one years unless he was out of the Province. He sits in his seat from three to six, and from eight to eleven when the House is open. And there is no one more mv-are of that fact than this hon. member here. But the Premier did not give the reason for that }!r. Speaker.

He did not give the reason, the main reason \vhy he does not leave his chair over there v7hile this House is in Session. He did not state the reason why he closed the House, ~vhen the hon. the Premier and three of his ministers went away. Because the hon. Premier feels Sir, and this is my opinion, my own opinion, it mi~ht be shared by other people, that this House cannot operate without the hon. Premier being in the Chair. This is my opinion. When the hon. minister speaks, he can give us his opinion. But the hoh. Premier must sit in that Chair, just afraid that some­ thing else might happen in his absence.

We talk about co-operation. We talk about smooth-running of everything. Now through the years and the most vivid, the most callous thing that I ever saw done, was the hon. Leader of the Opposition, my immediate predecessor, who made the terribly, tragic offense against this Province of Ne~vfoundland by saying, I second the Hotion. And ~vas barred, not by the Premier, but by the rules of this House, ~·7 hich had to be brought to the attention, and then the great big magnanimous offer afterwards, oh, let him speak, let him speak. This is what gets me ~!r.

Speaker. l~en we talk about rules of this House, how· important they are to the people of this Province, and at any time during the Session, the hon. the leader of the House can get up and move that these rules be susnended. Hmv- important the rules are. He had an unfortunate incident that I did not share in, because like the Premier, I am in my chair pretty well most of the time, only I am one of these unfortunate ones that like an odd dra~v on a cigarette, so I have to pop out for a few minutes. The Premier does not smoke, he gave it up t~velve years ago. I have all the details on the Premier.

He gave up smoking nrelve years a~o, and he is lucky that he does not have to get up and bow to this terrible urge to have a cigarette. l~ell 2216

April 16, 1970 Tape /1507 Page 4 now look do not - please, I heard the ~remier say only this morning say t'.relve years ago he gave up smoking, and the Premier can say Hhether I am wrong or right, but I think I am right because I heard him. Twelve were the years given. MR. SHALUJOOD: Twelve or fourteen. Jl-7 MR. HURPHY: Well at least t'-relve years ago, so no one will get in trouble. But Hr. Speaker, this House is here for one purpose, whether ,,re talk about Standing Orders or any other orders. Personally I knm11 more about the baseball rules perhaps than I do about the Standing Orders. NR.

SHALLHOOD: I am sure of that. I am sure of that. HR. l1UR~HY: But Mr. Speaker, I have done more benefit to the youth of Newfoundland in baseball than I have done here in eight years arguing about silly, foolish matters. That is right. Give the bon. gentleman full credit. HR. HURPHY: Stupid foolish arguments in this han. House -v1hen there is so much to be done. \•1ednesday is private members's day. It has been argued that the rules say you can meet Hednesday night, every night but Friday, ,.ye rise at six o'clock. Two Hednesdays a11:o I think it was, the Hotion was moved that '"e not sit on Hednesday night.

By the time you get the orders through of the day, Hr. Speaker, as you knmv and go into private members' bills, you might have an hour and a half to discuss it. Now critically and legally - The House rose and when was that, last \vednesday was it? T-vm weeks ago, where the hon. members '·Tere refused to go ahead with their Hotion. This is tremendous stuff, tremendous parliamentarism, tremendous - doin~ this. HR. SMALUJOOD: There was no Hot ion. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentlemen want to have a debate, will they kindly go out in the Common Room?

But what I am trying to get across and I may not be very successful because I do not have great brains or the intellect of some of the crown princes on the other side, is 've talk about Parliament, what Parliament is here for, and all we hear is rulQ so and so, rule so and so, rule so and so. Debate Has stifled. The hon. minister there just says no :lotion was made. In my fev words here on Tuesday. If I sat down once, I sat down fifteen times to listen to different ministers 221·7

April 16, 1970 Tape C507 Page 5 explain a position. l try to be Nr . Speaker, to the best of my ability, a gentleman . If people 1.rant. to ask me a question or give an explanation, look, I am only too happy to learn. Rut t.,rhen you see an individual so arrogant, so contemptously arrogant that Hill not yield the floor for n•o minutes to allolv a member to perform <1 duty, I thin k it is darn poor sports­ manship. Darn poor sportsmanshi~ . It might be parliamentary, but ~ the hon. member will learn that our people today know what is going on in this Province.

They very much learn, very much learn, and I lJarn the hon. minister and some others notv to start and make plans for something to do after the next election Ht:. $peaker . This is not a threat. This is advice from a much older man. These are some of the thin RS :-1r. Speaker, that the !'eople of this Province are looking at. No t lvhether it is Standin g Order 14 , or Standin g Order 16, but our conduct in this House, and no matter we are protec ted by rules or anything else, I think in the first instance Hr . Soeaker, He must be flentlemen and regard each other as such. 2218 •· ·- ·- •·

m April 16th., 1970 Tape no 508 Page 1 Do on to each other, Mr. Speaker, as you would wish them to do to you. That is all I can say on that particular issue; The bon. member from Burgeo-LaPolie spoke of matters affecting his district up therP., with reference to C. N. R., a name that has become, in this Province, "despised" I would say for what they have done to the not many working people in our Province. There areAvery~things that turn me more when I look at a beautiful ad in a magazine, coast to coast with C. N. R., from Halifax to Vancouver and I am referring to passenger service.

One of the great tragedies, }!r. Speaker, when this enquiry was being held here in St. John's, with reference to preserving this service, which meant so much to so many of our fellmv citizens, in the 'lt7ay of jobs, wages that we can darn well ill-afford to lose even if it is five jobs or ten jobs. The M~yor of Port aux Basques was one that came in here to listen and give evidence on it, and he '117as not in the least concerned about taking off the passenger service. The question was asked, did he pay his own way in? He said, "no." It was paid by C. N. R.

But once it touches his own little area with freip,ht handling, then everybody is up in arms. But when the passenger service, when we were so much abused by C. N. R. taking avmy jobs from our people and substitute a bus service, our Government was not too vehement in their protestations either, not very vehement at all. After the deal was consummated and everything was gone, our Government decided they were going to submit a brief, our Government decided to submit a brief. This is it. HR. CALLAHAN: !Vill the hon. member permit a question? M.R. NURPHY: Sure go ahead my boy. :HR. CALLAHAN: Hr.

Speaker on the point to which the hon. gentleman is now referring. I simply want to ~sk him whether the case, having been put at the public hearing to \vhich he has now referred, the case having been put in respect of the railway passenger service by the then Hinister of Justice on behalf of the Government, did not the hon. gentleman himself personally 2219

April 16th., 1970 Tape no. 508 Page 2 on behalf of the Opposition suppQrt that case and restrict himself, not go further, but support the cas~ that the Government at that time presented, was that not the fact? :tom. 1-lURPHY: I supported a case! Mr. Speaker,,. HR. HURPHY: Because in that, there ~"as an extension, I think, and I may be wrong ) from a certain day for about another year. That is what I supported. It was better than losing it six months or the year before. We saw everything was lost. You could not win. You cannot beat c. N.

R., when our Government is not stormin~· · the : . fortress·:of the .:::great -oHouse of Parliament in Ottawa. MR. CALLAHAN: Hill the hon. gentleman take another case or did he support the case that the Government made? That is the question. }ffi, MURPHY: I supported and fought for the retention of - the C. N. R. passenger service in this Province, ~·~~LA~~: Before the public hearing downstatts. MR. NURPHY: I certainly did, and I have briefs to prove it. But we just sat by on the last moment and asked for this extension •• :t-m~~~1JJ1AN: ___ The bon. gentleman did not present a brief that day.

He simply got up .•• }ffi. '1-IURPHY: The C. N. R-.- Hr. Speaker, as far as we are concerned, and do not let any of us be too suprised •• MR. CAL~::!_: __ I am not supporting the C. N. ·R. MR. MURPHY: Do not let any of us be too surprised in another few years that these steel ribbons may be gone to, and there goes another few hundred jobs. Do not at all be too surprised that these steel ribbons may be gone to,Q~less ~Q~gQn~ ~ in this Province are standing up, fighting to retain the jobs. _They can talk about service. They can talk about what they like, but let us get the jobs.

That is what '"e need. fut our Han power to work. But I say, Mr. Speaker, all this and I say these great ads, these

April 16th., 1970 Tape no Page 3 great coloured ads from coast to caast. I wonder does Canada really cease at Halifax 6r Sydney. Are we indeed in fact as well as in any other way a member of this great Dominion of Canada, as we hear so much? Are we in : fact~ as well as -we get the baby bonus, yes. We get unemployment insurance. ~ve ?et the other benefits. Is that all ~•e want? ~ve talk about Confederation. There are no anit-Confederates today, let us not face it.

There are people who w·ish that Newfoundland had to get Confederation the proper way to a sover:i.Egnly elected assembly . .But Confederation today, I think, the hon. the Premier terms it as the greatest blessing under life itself. He do not need, Hr. Speaker, to crawl to Ottawa on our hands and knees with our caps in our hands. This was not a one way street. Anybody that ~•as in the commercial li~e ~ of Newfoundland like I did, customs' work. How much revenue or how much monies were Canada receiving from the Province of Newfoundland before Confederation ? 1\'hat ,,•ere their sales in this Province?

Practically nothing. Hy hon. friend will tell you that. Practically nothing. Nmv we are 2. captive market. Does anybody figure out · v1hat central Canada; particularly Ontario and Quebec are receiving from this Province. Not only the dollar that we are spending there on what 't>]e are buying there. But when you think of the tax, the Federal sales tax that is paid on these goods that are shipped in here, that goes directly into the pockets of the Federal Government. He are not the great anchor around the neck of Canada that some people maintain we are.

We knm• we get substantial grants from Ottawa, but everybody else is getting them also, every other province are getting grants the same as we are and other things like •.••• . . . · .. !_lR_. CALLAH£.I:!= First class national parks and the facilities. The hon. minister is very pleased to, very glad to discuss national parks. llr. Speaker. 11R. CROSBIE: The hon. minister is afraid to discuss them. 1-IR • CALL~JlAN : Any time the hon. p,entleman keeps within the rules. 2221

April 16th., 1970 Tape no. 508 Page 4 HR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. HURPHY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there are many, many too many people in this Province of ours who are not sharing in this great blessing of Confederation and a great many people would like to become first class Canadians. They say we are first class Canadians. As men, I would say yes, Mr. Speaker, but as far as sharing in the benefits of Confederation, we are fourth class citizens, because of the fact that this Government has been in pm-rer too long, that this Government has become arrogant,- as the expression goes.

They have disregarded entirely many good ideas that have been brought forward from this side of the House, not by me, but by many other learned men. 1~ey have rushed in, Mr. Speaker, where angels fear to tread in an awful lot of the things that have happened in this Province and now today twenty-one years later, we are on the verge of .another great industrial breakthrough, and I say with all the sincerity in my body, I pray God we are.

I say that, Sir, whether the Liberals get an industry, whether the Conservatives or the Independent Liberals or the Labrador Liberals, Labrador Independents, if it is for our people, and they are going to benefit, Hr. Speaker, we are for it one hundred per cent. But let us not, let us not talk about 6,000 jobs unless we are sure that we have 6,000 jobs. Back in 1952, we had a great machine plant to be erected - the plant Has erected basically to provide some 6,000 jobs, and our worry at that time was the shortage of labour. We might have to get them in from other parts of Canada.

If these 6,000 jobs are available in the next few months, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the Government contact '-If these 6,000 people who linedheighteen years ago, give them the first chance on these jobs, because some· of them are still waiting. After twenty-ore years, Hr. Speaker, we are in this Province, I believe in a very, very favourable position to really consolidate what gains we have made and I refer to, perhaps the most important thing that has happened in the Province and that is the growth, the ~rowth of municipalities incorporated 2222

April 16th., 1960 Tape no. 5{)8 Page 5 over the years. I think today, we have someth i ng like ninety. I may be wron g. AN HON. }~BER: 200. - ------- ~f.URPHY: ~~o hundred municipalites incorporated? Is that right? TI1ese are the people, Hr. Speaker, t-;ho '~ill be the ones '~ho should decide '~hich Government , with the House of Asseinbly, '"hat is best for our Province. \.,le have anoth er great factor that is entered into our - into the realm ,. of movements in our Province and these are the development centres.

You have the Northern Regional Development a group of men come to gether to decide what they can do on their O\m - these people are not lookin R for hand- outs, I think all they are looking for is a little bit of technical advice, a little bit of encoura gement. It is a wonderful idea. You got the Burin Peninsula •· 2223 •·

April 16, 1970, Tape 509, Page 1 -- apb MR. MURPHY: On matters pertaining to their own particular districts. The hon. Hinister says very closely. According to what I read in the papers they are a long distance a~•ay from being close on this national park. I do not kno\v how the hon. member feels on this down there, but as far as I knmv Hr. Speaker, \.re have after t~.renty-one years or twenty years actually I suppose, this is our twenty-first anniversary, we have a lot to learn from the mistakes of the past.

No longer are people going to be deceived, bluffed, taken in by promises whether intentional or unintentional being made. We look back Hr. Speaker, over the years and I can go back twenty years, when Confederation first came, and just prior to Confederation, and our Premier used to make the great appearances. He owned just about, he did not own it but he took up most of it, radio, and he \vould have some of his candidates on. I remember one evening the hon. member for St.

Hary's, the former Minister of ' Health was on and Colonel O'Driscoll I think was running for Bell Island at the time, and I mentioned earlier the Academy A\'1ards. Hr. Speaker, I can assure. y.ou if ever there was a show put off that could win first prize Hithout any other nomination it would have been that. We are hearing the same, almost the same kind of stuff today that \ve \'Jere hearing then. Stupid nonsensical statements,"and you are a doctor?" "Yes I am a doctor." "You are a medical doctor?" "Yes, I am a medical doctor." "i'!m.r you are not a horse doctor?" You know, this is the kind of stuff went on.

"Oh Hr. O'Driscoll you are a colonel in the army." "Yes, yes." "Do _they call you colonel or do they call you Joe?" This is some of the stuff !-!r. Speaker, and He are just about, but it won el.ections. But today we hear stuff, God help us almighty, \.rith the level of education we' have reached in this Province I am sure that, Hr. Speaker, I believe quite sincerely it is time to get dmm to honest to God Hork, to face facts, to really \vork l·fR.. NEARY : I agree, do \-Je start right nmv? !'ffi.,HURPHY: Start right now, just listen to my \-Tords. It would be the best start the hon. minister ever made. 2224

Ap~il 16, 1970, Tape 509, Page 2 apb Hr. Speaker, we have today a very large public service, or civil service, Hhatever you \vould like to call it. He have some tremendous men in that service. Career civil servants I Hould call them, \vho have been in there for many years, have devoted themselves to the \vork of the civil service, \vho carry out their duties very efficiently. I \vould like at this time Sir, to say just a fe\v words of appreciation to so many of these senior civil servants, and in between civil servants, and to ask this hon.

House ~d the Premier has already made the statement with reference to raises for civil servants) to ask this hon. House to consider very seriously, very objectively the set-up of our civil service at the present moment. For these people, these civil servants Hho have devoted perhaps most of their \vorking years to the civil service, be ··treated justly in the matter of senior jobs. There are certain jobs in the civil service, certain posts that the Premier has a right to appoint and that is his prerogative. Yesterday a question was placed on the Order Paper here, with reference to Hr. Herman Batten.

A very good friend of mine, I have known him for many years who is nmv back in harness again as a consultant or an advisor on the Come by Chance plant MR. NEARY: Good man MR. HELLS: Apparently he ~vas a HR. }fiJR.PHY: Hell if he were not, if he were not out of harness for nine months working on the Llberal Convention NR. ROBERTS: Inaudible HR". !-IDRPHY: The han. gentleman as far as I know received leave of absence to \>Tork on being organizer or chairman of this great Liberal Convention, and now he is back again. ~~at he is getting paid I do not know, but I am sure he is getting more than fifty dollars a \veek.

AI.~ HON. HE::-mER: $20,000 HR. HURPHY: Hmv much? MR. CROSBIE: $20,000. }ffi. NUI:.PHY: You are not serious. $20,000. bucks a year. God help us Hr. Speaker. This is another example Hr. Speaker, of where, and I will be laughed 2225 T

April 16, 1970, Tape 509, Page 3 -- apb at, I will be scorned, I '-Till be tut tutted, t~here friends of the Liberal Party are shoved into jobs and paid money that rightly belongs to other civil servants who are working for half nothing. I say this now, a friend of mine, a conservative wanted to attend the Liberal Convention as an observer. 1-i'ho did he have to see Hr. Speaker? lfuo did he have to see? ~vill some one tell me who was in charge of observer tickets at the Liberal Convention. Observer seats? Well I will tell the hon. 1:1embers if they are not aware of it. The hon. O.L.Vardy. A civil servant.

Is this the Government of ~Iewfoundland? Is this Confederation Building, or is it Liberal Headquarters and I ask it now. And I will continue to ask it, and continue to ask it. NR. ROBERTS: r!R. :t-!URPHY: No political discussions takes place in that room over there Politics are discussed in that room over there, but we do not pay anybody $20,000. a year to come in and discuss them ~1r. Speaker.

I may be all >vet, I may be a babe in the woods, but I have grmvn up with certain things taught me between morality, politics, Hhatever you vJould like to call it, but to me it is immoral completely immoral ·to use monies of this Province to pay, I do not care hoH faithful it is, if the Liberal Party wants to pay this man or any other man let them pay him, but (or God's sake do not let the people of Newfoundland have to pay him. He brought up the same thing, I can go back, I can stay here until next Friday week talking about things we discussed in this House.

As I said earlier I am not too hard to get along tvith, I can discuss with anybody or talk with anybody. !!R. RO\vE: Hay I ask the hon. gentleman a question. Would he be equally indignant and horrified if he discovered that some civil servants, 10,000, 15,000 or what ever it is was also v10rking on behalf of an ?Uti-Government, or an anti-Premier, or an anti-liberal party or candidate. Would he be equally horrified? !-ffi.. ~lliRPHY: ~lr.

Speaker, and I say this now, that any civil servant that is being paid for ••orking as a civil servant has no right to be working during his \vorking hours tdth any other party or anything else. I will say that :m.. ROHE: Hhat about after lvork? 222fi

April 16, 1970, Tape 509, Page 4 -- apb MR. HURPHY: After ~mrk? It does not matter to me he can go out and do ~vhat he Hishes, but if you get key civil servants, men that indispensible, and you hear the great statements on them, and you can say "here, look, take tHelve months off, nine months off, to go doHn and arragne our great Liberal Convention." HoH indispensible are they? How indispensible are they? HON. H .J.

CALLAHAN (Hinis ter of :·lines , Agriculture and Resources): Is the hon. gentleman aware that the Tory candidate in the last election in this Province got leave of absence from the Government of Canada to run as Tory candidate. HR. MURPHY: Proper thing, P.toper t~ing, I do not object to anybody running as a candidate Hr. Speaker, I consider this the greatest service any man can do to offer himself as a candidate. HR. SHALLHOOD (J .R.): The same thing }ffi. MURPHY: The same as chalk and cheese my son, groHn up, grow up. l·ffi. ROBERTS: Is the hon. gentleman MR.

HURPHY: The hon. gentleman 1 s mind in a fe~·.• years has been turned from the channel of reason till he can only see straight ahead and with just one eye and that is in the middle of his forehead AN HON. :t-ffiHBER: Single~mindedness }ffi. HURPHY: No Mr. Speaker, as I say they can laugh, scorn, anything they like but what I feel I will say and these are things Hr. Speaker. We have asked questions, we have brought up matters, the waste of millions and millions of dollars that have taken place in this Province through no tenders being called for jobs. Big Jobs, and let anybody deny it. Look at the St.

John 1 s Municipal Council, calling tenders, I have seen price range from five to twenty per cent difference in prices on the same article, but not so with this great Government. We had millions of dollars to spend, this was Utopia, we are in Utopia now ••.•.•••... 2227

April 16 1 19~0 Tape 510 page 1. with 25 per cent of your people almost crawli~g on their bellies. AN RON. ~ffi~ffiER: That is pretty good, with 70 per cent going on television. MR.HURPHY: lvonderful, wonderful, AN. RON. MEHBER: Last year the hon. member said 70 per cent. MR. MURPHY: The hon. gentleman is NliTS, if I may use the expr.ession, I never us used 70 per cen~t. , I never used 70 per cent. Mr. Speaker, as I said let us think of the people, all the people, not one

section of the people, all the people, We have work to do ~r. ~peaker, we have work to do in this House, very serious work , ue will get on with the business, we will get on with the business. Did the gentleman refer to the hon. the Premier and ask him to get on ~vith the business after ten hours, of stuff that has been hashed, rehashed, hashed over has to hashed over again about hm·T we '.·ere all starvir.g to death in 1930. No one /tell me that He w·ere starving to death in 1930- 1931. No one has to tei.l me that. I know it, I went through it as did an awful lot of other people in this ~rovince.

Nineteen-thirty is gone, gone, we-·are in the 1970's nmv this is our responsibility~ MR.CALLAHAN: Thank God for that. MR.HICKEY: There are only certain people you hear from over there. MR.MURPHY: Thank God for that ,is right, NR.CALLAHAN'~ The hon. gentleman is the one who raised the Amulree Report. ~ffi.MURPHY: Thank God for that. I raised the Amulree Report for one reason to show that in these days when there was no money worthwhile and today with the millions of dollars that are being passed along, that we are still back where we started in 1932.

And the hon. member did not agree, the hon. minister did not agree but Mr. Speaker, many thousands of Newfoundlanders agreed, and I think I am right on that. HR.BURGESS: Would the hon. member permit a question? MR.MURPHY: I ~vould be delighted. HR.BURGESS: Hitnessing lvhat is happening on the opposite side of the House does not this make the hon. gentleman wish that he could make birth control retroactive? ~ffi • MURPHY : My religious principles are against active, retroactive or in the future. Yes, Hr.

Speaker, I am reminded of a little story if I may break the trend for just a moment, talking about laws and all the rest of it • . The story is told of a very successful business man in Toronto who decided to 'pack.up and 2228

April 16 1970 Tape 510 par,e 2/ leave and his friends Here urging him to stay. He said: "No, I can not stay here,'' And he said why do you interld to leave? He said: "Look what is happening to this Great Dominion of Canada today, they are talking about their lmvs hey," He said;"t,.;o years you knm.;, t"-'0 years ago you could not mention the lmrd homosexuality in Canada," He said, "last year it lvas made legal, and I am getting out of here before they make it COTilpulsory." HR.NEARY: That is a queer story for the hon. gentleman to tell us ~fr. Speaker.

HR.HURPHY: Queer alright, you said the right word for it. \•Jell I suppose there uill ahvays be an !unos and Andy shm.; I do not know which one I am but the hon. member fillscthe other part of it. If the hon. minister Hould restrain his levity,h~is usually in good humour and I know he must be one of the most populat ministers in the House and perhaps one of the ablest, there is the complement, beware of Greeks bearing- I do not know if the hon. the Premier is in the House - and I mention the great genius I have here on my right - this young man v1as going to the top - MR.NEARY: But he took it serious.

MR.HURPHY: You mean this hon. minister did not take it serious. You do not know the hon. minister. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have arrived at the crossroads,- J.M.Brovme's the cr~ss~oads- but it is J.R.S the cross_roads now. This Hr. Speaker, lvill be the year that will decide lvhere lve go , if we start to climb back to lvhere lve should be, or if we continue going the way we are going and I do not say, that we have reached the point of no return.

But I am just a little weary Mr.Speaker, unless very, very serious measures are taken that an aHful lot of our oeonle are going to suffer greater hardships than they are at this time. We have had a Government Hr. Speaker, fo ·r twenty years of great announcements.

There are so many industries that lvere brought, and again I do not l·7ant to go back and hash them over but in more recent years we had this great prefab. housing deal, the market is gone out of housing here, the number of housin?, starts, for any type of housing in Newfoundland was away below the national level last year. 1-Je here in Newfoundland have to pay considerably more, for pretty well all the commodities that we use. Our sales tax is not 2229

April 16 1970 Tape 510 page 3. the highest I believe it is the second highest in Canada. We are a little exception I think, we have the base of the tax lowered much lower than any other Province. The Premier annonnced today, not to the House, but on his own personal communications channel, that the budget will be brought in in ten days time. I would like to inform the hon. members now who have not heard the programme today that the budget will be brought in in ten .days time \-Thich will be April 25, and \-Te do not know if there Hill be an elect ion.

I will be listening tomorrow morning, the second part of the seria~, to see if there will be an election tomorro~-1. But I heard that on V.O.C.H. this morning that the budget \-Till come down the tenth, now this is definite, it was going to be brought down around the middle, MR.NEARY: The hon. member cannot think about anything but the election. HR.:I-!URPHY: He hope the election is brought down tomorrm-1. MR. SMALLWOOD : Election is on his mind, he is eating it and sleeping it and - MR.MURPHY: This is great fun, could I be blamed, this is great fun.

If the Premier ~1as only looking at ~1hat I am looking at nmv he lvould not have nightmares he lvould have little ponies. Oh well! Mr. Speaker', it is great to be humble Mr. Speaker, mnd the humility of the hon. Premier is really frightening. He stands on the floor of this House and I missed it unfortunately, I had to be somel,rhere else, very important business,- and he actually had to force himself force himself to speak. For the people, I think it was ten hours, some peopee think i~ was three weeks, but it was only ten hours - twelve hours altogether.

And I did not get a chance I am keeping the copies of Hansard until I f.et my hol~days so as I can read them. I do not have enough' time now I am too busy. But I am sure Mr. Speaker. that the Premier is bored to tears now, listening to me saying a fev1 thinp;s !-R. SMALLW)OD: I like to listen to the hon.gentleman, I like it I ahmys enjoy listening to the hon. gentleman. ~m. ~ll'RPHY · Thank you, r!r. Speaker. Yes, ~'r. Speaker, l·re have reached a stage now as I said we are at the c~ossroads. He have tlvo or three larp;e industries 2230

April 16 1970 Tape 510 page 4. that have been announced --and I have said this before and I will say it again - that we certainly hope they come through for the 'people concerned because there is nothing more despicable of building people's hopes up if there is no chance of supplying that hope, and I am not snyin~ that this is happening at this time 2231

April 16th. 1970 Tape 511 PK- 1 MR. MURPHY: time has come to let these industries get into production, this­ is :. the times to set up hiring people, during the years we have heard so many promises of so many things for the··· people, that really is quite understandable how the people are just about given up on any hopes, there is a feeling of despondency generally among the people that it is just another promise.

When we look back and see -particularly around election time, there were many things that were promised, if · we read some of the great manifestos t.hat have been issued by the Liberal Party, we sometimes. wonder when people would wise up. I think now they have wised up, I think their response to very many things that are happening in this Province today is quite evident. They are watching us, all of us here in this House, just what we are doing for them. I do not think they want this to be an arena, where people are fed to the lions any more.

I think they feel that everybody in this House has something to attribute. I do not think they believe in obstruction of any kind. I do not believe that any more they want to hear two prominent public figurers, using radio or T.V. to .throw accusations at one any other, of being bully-boys, of being sick, of being dictators. It is all right to get your name before the public I suppose. To get your name before the public makes headlines, you know. Hhat I said today, there has said the hon. member for Bona~ista South is a perfect gentleman, a lovely man.

I do not think I would write a headline in the news or telegram tomorrow. If I said he was a bum, he was a bully, and;he was a this and a that, I believe I would rate perhaps as being a, I would get a bit of a headline on it. Perhaps these are things that make the news, or salary increases which I hope, my explanation was taken as I explained it yesterday, that we are not in this House, and at this time we should look for more money. I would like Hr.

Speaker, perhaps while I look at the hon. member for Harbour Grace, how sorry we are all with the great lost in his trawler the day before yesterday, it must have been a very great blow to his company just to get him ready to start operating. I am sure we all here feel very sorry for the hon. member, I think he is a very fine member, he has got a lot to contribute to the House, and this lost to his company does not affect to much, and~not only the company 2232

April 16tth. 1970 Tape 511 PK- 2 HR. HURPHY: I am referring to possibly, but the people concerned, the men or the mayor of Harbour Grace extend, deliver a message the other night how hard put Harbour Grace was. I do not kno~• how the hon. House can do to help these people of Harbour Grace, Mr. Speaker.

These are the things here in this Province of ours, how one incident, and I will not say small things, but basically~one little incident, that can put so many people out of work, and create a drain on the hon. minister of Welfare that people who are looking forward to earning a decent living, have to depend on public support to keep their families going. Mr. Speaker, it is getting near 6:00 O'Clock and I have not too much longer to go, I presume in the rules of the House that we meet tonight, this is the understanding that the Speaker leave the Chair at 6:00 O'Clock. :HR. SPEAKER: I cannot say.

MR. 1-IURPHY: He cannot say. I am just "Vmndering if a.,motion is in order, that the Chair not meet tonight, and the House adjourn until tomorrow afternoon. Now, I will finish my fe'" remarks, Hr. Speaker, and trust that I have not bored the members to any great extent, or at all. MR. S}1ALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman has not bored me yet, I enjoy everything he says. MR. }ruRPHY: And I appreciate the Premier's remarks, and I think he is quite sincere in what he says that, he does enjoy me. I have not yet been offered the vacant cabinet post, perhaps it is because I mentioned my hon. friend for that. But, Mr.

Speaker, quite seriously all I say is this let us in Ueaven's name act as grown ups, let us get down, let us get the business of the House done and farther more let us act like christian::gentleman Here, nice to each other, courtesy to each other. Do not one member of this House try to out manoeuver the other. As I leok there now . at the Hon.

Speaker, in heaven's name how does the hon. gentleman sit in that Chair and put up with all this stuff, "hen he could be out in his law office, quite happy, earning far more money than sat here having to settle a squabble on this, and a squabble on that, and quite frankly a learned gentleman like he is, he must sometimes wonder you know really got all their marbles? This·is the way it strikes me. Mr. Speaker I would like to pay attribute to you at this time, and to the Deputy Speaker and my sympathy at the same time for 2233

April 16th. 1970 Tape 511 PK - 3 what you have to put up with. And I.. trust"S.If:r that, I will try my best not to be too hard on you, and I t~ink all our Opposition does here. And we respect your rulings, you make them in the best of your wisdom. You are only pocessed with so much wisdom, and that is sufficient to do your job. But your job Mr. Speaker is one of the toughest in this House. You have got to make decisions, which if they are against me, I feel perhpps you might be favouring the other fellow so on and so forth.

But I would like to congratulate you, and the Deputy Speaker for the very splendid manner in which you have carried out your duties in this session. As tough as they have been, But with appeal to the members to try to make your job,perhaps a little easier, I think we could all co-operate, and with each other.

As I started off I think yesterday that we are aware this is our Province we are resp~esenting and all sections, no matter what district you come from you are representing all of Newfoundland, and to try and sit down and for heaven sake do. not let one of try to out manoeuver the other fellow in some slick parliament way to try to prevent him from speaking. I have a lot of respect for the rules Sir, but I think rules are only a guideline, I do not think they are meant to be actually binding on anything that is to the betterment of the House. I think the rules should not deter ,· any progress in the House.

But I feel and I will reaffirm this again, Mr. Speaker, that working properly this llouse that we could meet in the afternoons from 2:30 P.M. to 6:00 P.M. and get through more work, and far easier on some of us on this side and perhaps on the other side, without having to have night sessions. I feel that quite honestly that we could 2234

JH April 16, 1970 Tape /!512 Page 1 _HR. MURPHY: that we could meet in the afternoons, get down to work, because another few days, I think the hon. minister of Education is going to clue up this debate, and I am sure that he t~ill not be very long, because he is not very critical at any time I think he is one of the finest members on that side to get along t-7ith. I very seldom have an argument t~ith him, and I am sure he "'ould only sum up, I do not know but he might take on right after me and finish at six o'clock. But he may want to continue tomorrmv. But Mr.

Speaker, I tvould like if I have the power to do it tvithin my rights as I conclude to move that the House adjourn until tomorrmv afternoon. Thank you very much. A seconder for the ~lotion? I did not think there was any need. And you cannot move adjournment if you have spoken in the debate? Hell I move seconded by the hon. ~Unister of Education that the House adjourn until tomorrow at 3i00 P.M. HON. F. 1-1. Rmm (Minister of Education) : Hr.

Speaker, before getting involved in some of the more serious and perhaps the more controversial aspects of this debate on the Address in Reply, there are several matters on which I want to comment. The Leader of the OPposition has said that I am the last speaker. It is customa~T I think for the Government of the House to close the debate on the Address in Reply, and this gives me a chance to summarize some of the thinking, and some of the talking that has been going on during the past several tveeks while the House has been open. First of all Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate you on your role once more.

Yours Hr. Speaker, it is not always a very easy task, especially in a Session of this kind where there is so much emotion involved. There have been so much heated argument. I think all of us are very delighted with the way in tvhich our new Lieutenant-Governor performed his duties at the opening. He and his lady performed magnificently, and I think that this performance was matched by other aspects of that opening day. For example the mover and the seconder of the Notion were both veteran political figures.

I think it tvas a very nice gesture that those men who served us so long and faithfully, should be asked to perform that function. h'e all expected 2235

April 16, 1970 Tape /1512 Page 2 they would give a good account of themselves. \vell I think without exception we were genuinely surprised at both the eloquence and the contents of \o7hat they had to say. I do not want to denegrate the efforts of their predecessors down through the years, but I think I can say quite preconscientiously that these were the two best speeches of their kind that I have heard in this House in the twenty sessions or twe::1ty-one, I am not sure \vhich, that I have been privileged to attend. And it must have been heartwarming too Mr.

Speaker, at a time when it has become fashionable in the name of political courage, not merely to attack the head of the G overnment, but also the record of the Government and the na::-t y \vhich that Government represents. I say it was heartHarming to see those two respected gentlemen step forward and reaffirm their loyalty co the Government which they have been a part to that party. And they did it without any mincing of words, and without any axe to grind. I know M::-.

Speaker, that hon. members wish for me to refer to the fact that one of those gentlemen, the member for Ttinity North since then has had a serious operation, but I am sure we are all happy to knmv that he is nmv discharged from hospita.l, and is apParently rapidly returning to health. And since we last met r,{r. Sneaker, the official OPposition have a new leader in the person of the hon. member for St. John's Center, \vho just spoke to us so entertainin81Y, and so intelligently in so many wavs.

I am indulging in any smooth flattery \vhen I say that that hon. gentleman always had the liking and the respect of this side of the House. And we all appreciate that in taking on at very short notice, a <;Iuty as leader of the Opposition. He has taken on a IJ.an-sized job, and that job has .not been made any easier by the fact that the Oonosition on paner at any rate, is larger than it \vas last year. The increase in the size of a party of an Opposition does not make it any easier for the leader of that Opposition for that party. I '1-Tant also to do something that has been on my mind for some time :·!r.

Sneaker, and that is to exnress my regret that the man t·?ho led the Opposition here for the three previous Sessions is no longer in this Rouse. I of course refer to Hr. Ottenheimer. I cannot help feeling that young and 2236

JH April 16, 1970 Tape 1!512 Page 3 intelligent and dedicated Newfoundlander, and it was my privilege incidentally to offer him his::first professional employment, ~•hen I was previously Minister of Education. I cannot help feeling that that young Newfoundlander should still be here. And I express the very sincere hope that some day he will again sit in this House in ~ne capacity or another. \fuile I am on that I would like also to refer to one of his predecessors as Leader of the Opposition, :'-!r.

James Greene whose name ~;re heard here today, who withdrew from public life after having served here I think for three terms, if I remember correctly. It was generally assumed, and this has a bearing on what the Leader of · the Opposition had to say here yesterday. It ~;ras generally assumed that Hr. Greene felt that he could not in justice to his family, he could no~ continue on in politics. As a lavryer he could not afford to carry on for all practical pur