Manitoba Hansard — 19 March 1997 (Sitting 13, 36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-13

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 13 -1:30 p.m., Wednesday, March 19, 1997

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Alben DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROC AN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupensland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fon Garry Swan River Political Aff"iliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. PC. PC. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

613 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, March 19, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources First Report Mr. Ben Sveinson (Vice-Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources) : I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be received. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources present the following- An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources presents the following as its First Report. Your committee met on Friday, October 25, 1996, at 10 a.m. in Room 254 and on Tuesday, March 18, 1997, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Annual Reports of the Manitoba Hydro Electric Board for the years ended March 31, 1995 and 1996. Mr. John McCallum, chairman, and Mr.

Bob Brennan, president and chief executive officer, provided such information as was requested with respect to the Annual Reports and business of the Manitoba Hydro Electric Board. Your committee has considered the Annual Report of the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board for the year ended March 31, 1995, and has adopted the same as presented. Motion agreed to. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 3-The North American Environmental and Labour Cooperation Agreements Implementation Act Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr.

McCrae) and member of the Legislature for Brandon West, that leave be given to introduce Bill 3, The North American Environmental and Labour Cooperation Agreements Implementation Act (Loi sur Ia mise en oeuvre des accords nord-americains de cooperation dans les domaines de l'environnement et du travail), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I am pleased to provide a copy of that message to the Legislature.

Motion agreed to. * (1 335) Bill 2-The Arbitration and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 2, The Arbitration and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi sur I' arbitrage et modifications

614 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19 , 19 97 correlatives), and that the same be now received and Some Honourable Members: Agreed. read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message, as well. Motion agreed to. Bill 4-The Steam and Pressure Plants Amendment Act Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that leave be given to introduce Bill 4, The Steam and Pressure Plants Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Jes appareils sous pression et a vapeur), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. BillS-The Mineral Exploration Incentive Program Repeal Act Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, I would like leave to introduce Bill 5, The Mineral Exploration Incentive Program Repeal Act (Loi abrogeant Ia

Loi sur Je programme d'encouragement a !'exp loration miniere), and also Bill 6, the Natural Gas Supply Repeal and Public Utilities Board Amendment Act (Loi abrogeant Ia

Loi sur l'approvisionnement en gaz nature! et modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Regie des services publics). This is moved by myself, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Radcliffe), in both cases. Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines , seconded by the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, that leave be given to introduce Bill 5, The Mineral Exploration Incentive Program Repeal Act (Loi abrogeant Ia

Loi sur le programme d'encouragement a !'exploration miniere), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Bill &-The Natural Gas Supply Repeal and Public Utilities Board Amendment Act Madam Speaker: I would ask that the honourable minister now read Bill 6. They must be done one at a time. Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): I was pressing for more efficiency, Madam Speaker. Moved by myself, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Radcliffe), that leave be given to introduce Bill 6, The Natural Gas Supply Repeal and Public Utilities Board Amendment Act (Loi abrogeant Ia

Loi sur l'approvisionnement en gaz nature! et modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Regie des services publics). Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members firstly to the loge to the left where we have this afternoon Mr. Herold Driedger, the former member for Niakwa. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. Also, seated in the public gallery, we have twenty Grade 5 students from the Princess Margaret School under the direction of Mrs. Susan Siwek. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews).

Also seated in the public gallery we have seventy-five Grade 9 students from the General Wolfe School under the direction of Mr. Harold Driedger. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

March 19, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 615 *

(1340) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): We have debated the issue of privatization ofhealth care services previously in this Chamber, Madam Speaker. Yesterday ministers were defending the decision of the government to award a specific contract on home oxygen therapy to the Rimer Alco company. Madam Speaker, will the Premier (Mr. Filmon) today tell Manitobans why this government is extending the privatization of these services to the private sector?

Will the Premier today table the cost and quality analysis of recommendations that led his government to award this contract to the Rimer Alco company? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): First of all, with respect to the

preamble of the Leader of the Opposition's question, the issues of privatization in health care, by and large, in these areas where we are purchasing services at better costs and looking at ways to trim costs of supplying various elements that are used in the health care system frees up dollars for other vital areas of patient care. So many of these things are about improving patient care. Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition may wish to know that the process by which these bids were evaluated included a first stage which was the quality analysis.

There were two companies who came through that process, Rimer Alco and VitalAire, I understand. Then their pricing envelopes were opened, and the Rimer Alco contract was the lower bidder and has received the contract. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I want to table a copy of the government's final report dealing with the awarding of the Home Oxygen Therapy Program to the Rimer Alco company, and the recommendation from the government's own group of experts made up of health officials and members of the community.

The recommendation is not to award the contract to Rimer A leo but to recommend, on the basis of quality of care and cost of this service over a three-year period and even the minimal cost difference of a two-year period, to award this contract to a different company. Why, and I ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), did his Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and his Minister of Health not follow the recommendations from their own final report and their own experts? Mr.

Praznik: In speaking today with the staff from Manitoba Health who provided the staff to that committee, it was confirmed to me that both companies met the qualification on standards and that both companies made it through that first stage of the quality control. There were other companies that did not, and their price envelopes were not opened. Of the two that made it through that quality process, the lowest tender was awarded and that is Rimer Alco. Mr.

Doer: My question to the First Minister is-they have the costs of the two bids, and they have the quality analysis done by the government's own steering committee of experts from the Department of Health, from the community, an accountant, a representative from the Rural Development department. The government's own group of experts is recommending, on the basis of cost and quality, that the 800 people that receive the Home Oxygen Therapy Program receive it from a different company than the government awarded it to. I would like to ask the Premier why did they award it to a different company.

Why did they go contrary to the recommendations of their own government expert group on quality and cost? *

(1345) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, we have a very interesting thing here in the Legislature being presented by the Leader of the Opposition. Yester day he and his members alleged that the company that was selected was not qualified or seen to be qualified by the selection committee. We now find they were wrong on that, wrong again, that the committee said there were two qualified bidders. One was Rimer Alco, the other was the company that he is promoting.

616 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19, 1997 Then, secondly, they alleged that it was not the low bid. On a two-year contract, it is clear that Rimer A leo was the low bidder. They were wrong again, and again the Leader of the Opposition comes forward with his presentation based on wrong facts. So, firstly, the company was qualified, according to the analysis done by the panel of experts that he is now quoting; secondly, they were the lowest bidder. Now you can imagine, Madam Speaker, what would happen if we awarded the contract to somebody who was not the lowest bidder.

What would be their tack here in this Legislature? Secondly, it happens to be a Manitoba based company, and if we chose somebody that was from outside or primarily from outside the province, what would be their tack then? You can imagine that they would be opposed to it on that basis. Here we have an opposition who has sunk so low that they will do anything they can, twist any facts, come up with any justification just to oppose the government on every single issue. It is why they continue to be in opposition; it is why they continue to run third in the public esteem of this province.

Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I can hardly wait till the Premier reads the whole recommendation from the committee. The home care workers now employed in delivering this service are all Manitobans. Yesterday in Question Period the Minister of Finance said that Rimer A leo was the lowest successful bidder meeting all qualifications.

Will the Minister of Finance confirm that in the bidding process, Rimer Alco acknowledged to the committee that it was unable to meet the core essential requirement of the request for proposal and did not therefore submit a performance bond, contrary to the requirement of the request for proposal, an essential criterion for bidders? Will he confirm that? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, no, I will not confirm that whatsoever.

It is in keeping with the approach of the opposition, that they are wrong on all accounts when it comes to this issue and bringing incorrect information as they did 24 hours ago to this House. Rimer A leo has met the bonding requirements. They do have the bond in place, $1.75 million, not like they were alleging yesterday that the bond was not able to be in place. The bond is in fact in place with the company. They are the lowest-cost bid for the two-year contract which was- An Honourable Member: What about the three year? Where does your committee sit? Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Stefanson: The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) should go back and look at the original request for proposal which was for a two-year bid. On a two year bid, Rimer A leo is the lowest-cost contract. They were one of two firms that the evaluation committee said met all of the quality criteria. So, on quality, on price and on performance bonding, they are the logical firm to award it to, unlike the misinformation being provided by the members opposite yesterday. Mr. Sale: The RFP had two options, Madam Speaker: a two year and a three year. Will the Minister of Health (Mr.

Praznik) or the Minister of Finance confirm that, during the Home Oxygen Therapy Program committee meeting, a phone call was received from a senior government person telling the committee to continue to consider Rimer Alco even though they did not meet the essential performance bond requirement which all other committees had to meet? Did that phone call take place? Madam Speaker, I intended to table this document at the time of my question and would like to do so now. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, again the member for Crescentwood-first of all, the request was for a two year agreement.

There was an option to put forward a third-year option. There was never a request for a three-year agreement. They are wrong again. If he has any information about any specific phone calls from

March 19, ll997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 617 individuals,. let him provide the information, provide the names of the individuals, any information he can provide. I am not aware of any such phone calls. Once again it is the same kind of tactics that they bring forward day in and day out, incorrect information, innuendos and sleaze tactics. *

(1350) Mr. Sale: I can tell the minister who received the call; I cannot tell him who was on the other end, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Crescentwood, with a final supplementary question. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister admit that, according to the accountant on the committee, the company chosen, Rimer Alco, could not demonstrate financial solvency, another essential criterion, that the bid process was not fair to all companies bidding, that in fact it was hopelessly corrupt? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I will admit no such thing.

I believe there were five firms that submitted bids. The evaluation committee said there are clearly two firms that meet the quality tests, VitalAire and Rimer Alco. So the first assessment was on quality. When the pricing was opened, the lowest-cost contract proposal came from Rimer Alco. It is very clear, Madam Speaker, on the combination of quality and on the combination of cost, Rimer Alco was the logical firm to award it to. Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, let us get straight what this government is doing here in privatizing this home care service. They are willing to put the health and safety of more than 800 Manitobans at risk to save $4,800 on a two-year contract, when their own committee recommended the three-year option on the contract which in three years is less cost.

I want to ask the Minister of Health how can he justify awarding the contract to Rimer Alco when his own oxygen supply committee recommended that the two-year bid was too short, that it would not fit in with the needs of the program and they clearly recommended the third-year option on the contract. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think that the member for Radisson is stretching very much the particular report that was tabled in this House. That committee recognized both firms as being able to do the job. It ruled three others out on the quality side.

So clearly this company is able to do it. They have posted the perf ormance bond; they were the lowest bidder. Are members of the other side suggesting that we should not have accepted the lowest bidder, Madam Speaker? Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Radisson, with a supplementary question. Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, we have clearly tabled the document that recommends against the two-year option.

I want to ask the Minister of Health: is he willing to make the care of more than 800 patients secondary when the same minutes from his steering committee also show that there are concerns regarding the failure of Rimer Alco to deliver the services required? It is in the document we tabled. Read it and tell us how could you award this contract to this company. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, let us understand the basis of that recommendation. It was because of one bidder's experience in the province in delivering that service.

If you accept that analysis, that means that no new bidder could ever bid on a contract, that we would continually award the contract over and over again to the people who are in the business. That is not in the best interests of anyone. Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, the other concern expressed by the steering committee is about the gaps in service and the inability of this company to provide the technical and service supports to the clients that require oxygen supply. That is also listed in the minutes from the steering committee.

618 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19, 1997 Will the minister consider delaying this contract from the start-up date of April 1 so that the gaps in services at least will not occur for these clients that depend on this service? Mr. Pramik: Madam Speaker, ifl am referring to the same part of the minutes as the member is, the recommendation is to ensure that that rollover be included in any future contracts or proposals with providers of service. If you accept what the member is saying, once you have awarded the contract to one company, you never could change. The member is stretching this far beyond what I think was intended in the minutes. *

(1355) Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, we are becoming used to this government corrupting the process in which government contracts are handed out, but when it comes to an issue involving health care where their own committee cites quality of care as a concern, is there any wonder why we question this government's agenda privatizing health care. I want to get to the root of the matter, and I want to find out who is pulling the strings on this. I want to ask the Premier if he or his Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stef anson) or either of the ministers of Health at any time met with the principals or any representative of Rimer Alco to discuss this contract. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, you know, the innuendo and the very, very unsavoury kind of approach that is taken to every single issue in this House by the members opposite, really I think brings great discredit on the members opposite.

I can tell the member who has asked that question that I did not know anything about this issue until it was raised in the House yesterday, and I made it my business to check on the facts surrounding the various allegations. I can tell the member opposite that, firstly, they alleged that the company, Rimer Alco, that was awarded the contract was not seen to be qualified by the committee. In examination of it, they were one of the two companies out of five bidders that were seen to be qualified to provide the service. So they were wrong on that one. It was alleged by the member for Crescentwood (Mr.

Sale) that the bid bond requirement had been dropped from $1.75 million to a million dollars. In examination of that, I find that they were wrong again on that. No such decision was made. No such move was made. They alleged that they were not the low bidder on the basis of a two-year contract, which was what was asked for in the request for proposal in the tender, and they were the low bidder on that basis. They were wrong again, Madam Speaker. So how many times do they have to be demonstrated to be wrong before they stop playing all of these games of sleaze and innuendo? Point of Order Mr.

Ashton: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, Beauchesne Citation 492 lists the terms that the Premier used as being unparliamentary. I would also point out that the Premier did not even answer the question once again as to why his government overruled their own committee in handing out this contract. So, Madam Speaker, not only should he withdraw that comment. but if there is anyone looking at sleaze it should be sleaze in government as we are seeing on this contract. Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, on the same point of order. Mr.

Filmon: Despite the fact that the Free Press editorially has used that term in speaking about the New Democrats. I will withdraw that word because it is unparliamentary. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable First Minister, and I would remind all honourable members to pick and choose their words carefully. I think it would be very much in order now if the honourable member for Thompson would also withdraw the word "sleaze" attributed in his point of order. Mr. Ashton: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will withdraw the word "sleaze."

March 19, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 619 Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable member for Thompson. * * * *

(1400) Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a supplementary question. Mr. Ashton: On a supplementary question, Madam Speaker, since the First Minister did not answer the question. I want to get to the root. I want to ask him why this government overruled the recommendations of his committee that pinpointed as one of the key factors the quality-of-care issues. Who is pulling the strings on this contract? Why did they ignore their own committee? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have said and it has been repeated here by the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) and the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) that we have to abide by requirements in government to ensure that contracts are awarded on a fair basis, and one of the requirements is of course that we have a process that identifies whether or not bidders are qualified to be able to provide the services or the products that are tendered. In that process, the committee that was examining it examined five bids and determined that two were qualified, one being Rimer Alco, the other being the company that the members opposite are speaking for. So they clearly were one of the two qualified bidders.

Secondly, they had to meet a requirement for a bid bond, alleged by members opposite they did not yesterday. They were wrong. They did meet the requirement for the bid bond. Thirdly, they had to examine them then based on which was the best price and the lowest price of the two bidders. The lowest price of the two bidders was the company that was awarded the contract, Rimer Alco. Based on a two-year contract, they were clearly the lowest price.

If we had not done it on that basis, members opposite would have found reason then to criticize us because either we did not award it on the basis of the best price, or something of that nature. They are constantly looking for ways in which they could disagree with this government, Madam Speaker. It does them no credit, but the fact of the matter is from all the examination this was awarded on the basis of the best practices that should be followed in the awarding of contracts. Mr.

Ashton: A final supplementary: I want to ask the Minister of Finance, responsible for Treasury Board, how he can justify ignoring the recommendation that due to the quality of care that VitalAire is able to provide and a lower cost, how he can ignore that when he himself yesterday said that the company that was rejected in this process, that was outlined as recommended, could provide better quality care. How can he justify ignoring a recommendation for a cheaper contract and better quality of care, the most important thing for our home care clients in our province? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I do not know how many times we have to explain the process to members opposite so that they will ultimately understand it. We have a very comprehensive process in terms of reviewing tenders and proposals that we are very proud of, and as has been outlined, when proposals are first submitted the analysis is first done by an evaluation committee on the basis of quality. It was determined two firms met the quality test, Rimer Alco and VitalAire. Both met the quality tests.

When the proposals were opened, in terms of costs, the lowest cost two-year contract was Rimer Alco. On the basis of the firm meeting the quality test and providing the lowest-cost contract, the award was made to Rimer Alco. It is that simple. [interjection] The member for Thompson seems to have difficulty understanding two firms met the quality test. Two firms met the quality test. Rimer Alco and VitalAire both met the quality test as reviewed by the evaluation committee. Do you not understand that they both met the quality tests? Both firms met the quality test, plain and simple.

Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I would like to refer to the minutes from the committee specifically dated Friday, December 13, 1996, where in fact it states, and I quote direct, "the committee recommends Manitoba enter into a contract with Vital A ire."

620 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19, 1997 The question is: who in this government is going to take responsibil ity for overturning this decision? Someone in this government, whether it was the former Minis ter of Health, the current Minister of Health, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) or the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), someone is respons ible. Who is it? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for Inkster makes many accusations.

I know there are many in the province who would like to know how his Leader got into the contract she has received from the federal government, what process she went through. Remember the process here. The committee was to review the applications first for whether or not they could meet the quality requirements. Two bidders were successful. There were two option proposals for whether it would be a two-year contract or a two-year plus an option. There was a recommendation from the committee, as the member outlined, for one particular bidder based on a three-year contract. It was a recommendation.

The view that was accepted in awarding the contract was that it should be for a two year contract. The lowest bidder, Rimer A leo, also met the quality requirements of the contract. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with a supplem entary question. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Health if he can indicate whether or not this deal has been completely finalized. Has it been signed off? If it has not been signed off, can we get assurances from the Premier (Mr. Filmon) that he personally will investigate this whole matter before the agreement is signed off? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, despite the accusations that came from the opposition yesterday that there was an inability of Rimer Alco to meet bonding requirements, they have met their bonding requirements and their contract has been awarded. Firearms Control Government Support Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. Yesterday, the chief of the Winnipeg Police Services, David Cassels, announced the publication of a document titled Firearm, Homicide, Robbery and Suicide Incidents Investigated by the Winnipeg Police Services (1995).

I would like to table that report in the House today because I believe that is an important document that clearly demonstrates the need for gun control legislation. Given that the chief of police has now demonstrated the importance of gun control to the health and safety of Manitobans in this report, will this minister join with the majority of Manitobans and ask for the support of the official opposition and withdraw his government's support for the Alberta constitutional challenge? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I would thank my colleague from The Maples for tabling that report. I think there is a large problem with that report, and I am not faulting the police service. I have the highest respect for the police service and for my col league who is a police officer. But what I am very concerned about are the statements of Justice Minister Roche who indicates that Bill C-68 is intended to get firearms out of the hands of criminals and potential suicides. Now that is the purpose of the F AC, the firearms acquisition certificate.

That is the process by which we determine whether someone is suitable to have a firearm. What this is, very sadly I would say, is simply a political attempt to try to prop up a very bad bill which does nothing but take police officers off of the street. I would ask the member for The Maples to stand up and say that he supports police officers in the street and not this kind of legislation. Manitoba Hydro Deregulation Ms. MaryAnn Mihycbuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

Given that Manitoba Hydro has been restructured into four business units and given that Manitoba Hydro has signed onto the Mid-Continental Area Power Producers grid and given that legislation will be before -

March 19, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 62 1 this House in this session allowing for deregulation and given that some sections of Manitoba Hydro already operate in a nonregulated environment, will the Premier clarify for this House what he means when he stated Hydro was saf e as long as it is in a totally regulated environment? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I heard the member for St. James on the radio this morning proposing the same kind of phoney argument about the potential for privatization.

I have to tell her that I have said consistently that, as long as Hydro is in a market in which it has no competition at the retail level, there is no reason for us to ever consider privatization. It needs, of course, to do what it is doing with respect to the wholesale distribution on a utility-wide basis in order to ensure that it preserves its capacity to export energy into the United States. That brings some $250 million U.S. annually into our economy, and it is very important that that is there so it keeps our rates the lowest in North America.

She, of course, would tie their hands so they would be in danger of losing that kind of ability to export to the United States by virtue of opposing this move. She is wrong, absolutely wrong. When questioned this morning and asked about operating in, as she says, already a partially deregulated market, she said, well, you know that they are in competition for installing hot water heaters, that they could have competition for that.

I thought to myself , my good heavens, that is a terrible situation, that somebody might be able to compete with them for installing hot-1 mean, it might not be the end of the world, but I am sure you can see it, Madam Speaker, from here. * (14 10) Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, Be auchesne is very clear. Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. The Premier was asked a very straigh tforward question about Manitoba Hydro, shades of MTS.

I would appreciate it, Madam Speaker, if you would ask him to give a straightforward answer and deal with the very real concern expressed by the member for St. James, a question on a lot of Manitobans' minds on whether they can trust this government with anyth ing to do with privatization, particularly to do with Hydro. Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon) that he should not provoke debate. Privatization Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. James, with a supplemen tary question. Ms.

MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my supplementary question to the Premier: if the Premier feels that this is something Manitobans believe, will he give the commitment to the people of Manitoba that it will go to a vote before Manitobans before any part or all of Manitoba Hydro is privatized like MTS was? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, Manitoba Hydro is so concerned that they ensure that the public is well informed about the issues here-and there are serious issues- because Manitoba Hydro, and indeed the customers of Manitoba Hydro, cannot afford to have their market for export of electricity that is worth more than $250 million U.S. a year to them cut off. They have a business plan that is intended to reflect a transition to ensure that they protect those markets and allow them to be a growing opportunity for the utility.

They are so concerned about it that they are going to have a series of public consultations so that they can put forward all of the facts surrounding this issue to the public, because they know that the public wants them to continue to strengthen and grow in public ownership, as they are today, and to maintain their ability to service customers at lowest possible cost. So they are going to put the facts forward, not the phoney things that are being put forward and false things that are being put forward by the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk).

622 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19, 1997 St. Boniface Hospital Role of Nurses Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): One overriding legacy of this government is its total disregard for the role and value of nurses. We have seen, in the last several years, over 1,800 people, according to government figures, lose their work in the health care sector, mostly nurses. Today nurses, doctors and others were protesting at the St. Boniface Hospital about the elimination of nurses from the management role, policy role ofthe hospital.

I will table, Madam Speaker, the proposed organizational structure that eliminates nurses, and I would like to ask the Minis ter of Health is he not concerned, from a government that has eliminated nurses in the breadth and width of this province, that the elimination of nurses from policy-making roles at St. Boniface Hospital will have an effect on the delivery of patient care already hurt by government cutbacks? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): The member's statement is so far from the truth and the reality, it is directly opposed. St.

Boniface Hospital, with their new CEO and their board, are currently in the process of doing some reorganization that will accommodate the centralization and reorganization in Winnipeg that is absolutely needed to provide better patient care. That is what it is about, and the most telling part of the member's question, he never once mentioned patient care. That is what this side of the House is concerned about. Mr.

Chomiak: Will this minister, who is so quick to defend this structure that eliminates nurses, explain to the nurses and the patients of Manitoba why they continue to eliminate the need to hear the voices of nurses? Will the minister meet with nurses? Will he discuss their concerns? And, will he be prepared to take action with regard to the elimination of nurses from the policy and management structure of St. Boniface Hospital and as a matter of fact, Madam Speaker, most institutions in the province? Mr.

Praznik: First of all, I would say that the role of nurses in this province is expanding in a greater way than it ever has in the past. First of all, the change in the nursing school system, the requirement of a four year nursing program, is going to produce better nurses who are more needed in the system . Virtually every-not every but the vast majority of the liaison staff that Manitoba Health appointed to work with the regional health authorities are nurses. As we move to program management within the Winnipeg Health Authority, each of the management teams include not only a clinical head but a nursing head.

What St. Boniface Hospital is doing is reorganizing their structure to accommodate the reorganized Winnipeg program delivery system. The member would have us turn back the clock. Winnipeg Beach Commercial Development Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Tonight this government is giving out sustainable development awards to nominees such as Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting. a company that even mining associations says has the worst air pollution record around.

This government continues to do a snow job in the idea of sustainable development so no one is surprised to see this government eagerly selling off park land at the same time as trumpeting sustainable development. This minister should be reminded that in adjusting park boundaries at Winnipeg Beach for condo developments he is breaking his own legislation. Why. when plenty of commercial sites are available outside park boundaries, is this minister anxious to dispose of park land at Winnipeg Beach, and why is he breaching

Section 14 of The Parks Act that restricts the sale of park land to do it? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): After listening carefully to that question, I believe the member is starting to read his own press releases. The fact is the Winnipeg Beach issue is being put through the process as is required by The Parks Act. An information meeting was recently held at Winnipeg Beach, and further information will be taken from the public before any decision is finally approved. -

March 19, 1997 LEGISLAT IVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 623 Mr. Struthers: Before a decision is finally approved. Why then was a lease concluded in 1995 between the deputy minister and the Lions Club, complete with a lease-signing ceremony attended by the deputy, long before proposed boundary changes and long before any public hearings? Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, for the very purpose of what I said, to begin the process of having input, consultation and to facilitate any decision making that will be required. Historical Documents Private Acquisition Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, yesterday in response to my questions regarding the privatization of historical artifacts and by what authority this government was selling historical artifacts to legal firms, I got bluster from one minister and bombast and bullying from the other; however, I will return to the questions today. To the Minister of Culture: has the minister's of fice consu lted with any stakeholder groups, including aboriginal people, since so many of the historical records for sale pertain to transactions regarding aboriginal people? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I will attempt to be as gentle as possible then in my comments back to the member as I tell her that she was wrong yesterday and she is wrong today. Madam Speaker, I can assure you and assure this House that those documents are not for sale. For a second day the member has failed to check her facts. She was wrong yesterday; she is wrong again. *

(1420) Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would like to address an issue which the honourable member for Osborne has just raised again in this Chamber, and it was a question on which I took notice yesterday. I would not be so audacious as to allege that the honourable member for Osborne is a purveyor or muse of stygian murk, but I can assure the honourable member for Osborne that I have consulted with my department and there are absolutely no documents that are being sold or offered for sale.

In fact, the Winnipeg Land Titles Office has solicited offers from private law firms to contribute charitably to underwrite the cost, under the auspices of the Provincial Archivist, to have these documents preserved, mounted and framed to be displayed in the public domain. So the allegations that this government is selling 35 historical documents, including Riel's power, is categorically, unequivocally wrong.

Eaton's Store Closures Madam Speaker: Technically, time has expired, but in order to acknowledge the member for Welli ngton who was on her feet well before the members started chiding each other across the Chamber, I think it is in order that we recognize the honourable member for Well ington for one very short question. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Last Thursday the Minis ter of Industry, Trade and Tourism stated that he was in the process of preparing a communication outlining the government's response to the closing of Eaton's and that our concerns about Eaton's potential closing were highly speculative. I would like to ask the Minis ter of Industry, Trade and Tourism, in light of the announcement yesterday that most of the stores that Eaton's plans to abandon will be shut down on June 30, six months ahead of the

schedule that was announced in late February, if he can table for us the communication that last Thursday he was in the process of preparing and if he plans to meet with civic groups such as Downtown BIZ and City Council in Winnipeg and Brandon to figure out what to do about this distressing situation. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Yes and yes, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

624 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19, 1997 NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Winnipeg Music Competition Festival Mrs. Shirley Render (St Vital): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Vital have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mrs. Render: Madam Speaker, it is with great pride that I rise to recognize the Winnipeg Music Competition Festival.

The Winnipeg Music Competition Festival is the longest running consecutive music festival in Canada; 1919 marked the inaugural festival and since that year it has assisted in the development of countless local musicians. Now in its 79th year, the festival has witnessed dynamic change in popular music. It has gone from Charleston to Big Band, from classical to jazz, but one thing does remain constant and that is the tireless efforts of its organizers. Manitobans are well known for their volunteer spirit, and the longevity and the success of the Manitoba Music Competition Festival speaks volumes to that fact.

This year's festival had 3,550 entries and over 24,000 participating musicians from across the province. The festival began February 24 and will conclude with its final concert tonight. The festival pays tribute to the countless hours of practice on the part of our musicians, the tireless support of their families and the tutoring and adjudicating efforts of music instructors from all comers of our province.

I invite all honourable members of the House to attend the final concert of the Winnipeg Music Competition Festival tonight at Pantages Theatre at 7:30 p.m., and I believe that all members will join with me in congratulating the Winnipeg Music Competition Fes tival for another successful year. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Brandon Wheat Kings Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Might I have leave, Madam Speaker, to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: Thank you, and I thank my colleagues for their indulgence. I would like to extend my congratulations to the Brandon Wheat Kings on their recent victory. For the third straight season Brandon captured the WHL's East Division regular season title. The Wheat Kings finished with a 4 7-24-1 record to edge out second-place Swift Current by two points. Despite numerous injuries, the Wheat Kings finished the year by winning five straight games. The team will begin the opening defence of their WHL championship title with a best of seven conference quarter-final series against the Moose Jaw Warriors.

This series will begin this Thursday at the Keystone Centre. Honourable members all know about the Keystone Centre in the city of Brandon. Hope to see them there soon. The Wheat Kings have their sights set on attending their third consecutive Memorial Cup National Junior Tournament. which will be held in Hull, Quebec, this May. The Wheat Kings were led this year by most valuable player Peter Schaefer, as well as a total of 13 Manitobans, among them all-stars Justin Kurtz of Winnipeg, Brian Elder of Oak Lake, Stefan Chemeski of Thompson, and Kelly Smart of McAuley.

I would like to extend my congratulations and those of all of my colleagues in this House to the team's general manager, Kelly McCrimmon, and head coach, Bob Lowes. also assistant coach Mark Johnstone and all the players. I would like to wish the Wheat Kings the best of luck in their quarter-final series against Moose Jaw, and I am sure all honourable members will join me in that sentiment. Thank you. Winnipeg Music Competition Festival Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, do I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? -

March 19, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 625 Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minis ter of Consumer and Corporate Affairs have leave for a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] * (1 430) Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I would like to add to the remarks of my honourable colleague the member for St. Vi tal (Mrs. Render) who was talking about the Winnipeg Music Festival. I would like to congratulate the Kelvin Choir at Kelvin High School under the auspices of the conductor, Derek Morphy.

Kelvin High School, which is my old alma mater, entered Kelvin Chamber Choir, the Kelvin Girls' Choir, the Kelvin Boys' Choir and the Kelvin Choir into the music festival, and I am pleased to advise my colleagues in this Chamber and the people of Manitoba that the Kelvin Girls' Choir was the winner of the Beth Douglas Trophy for the most outstanding performance by a public school choir. Countless hours of hard work and skill go into this sort of a performance, and I congratulate the conductor and all the contestants. This is truly an event which makes Manitoba and Winnipeg a richer and more rewarding place to be.

My congratulations to Kelvin High School. Antiracism Week Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I would like leave to make a nonpolitical statement. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for The Maples have leave? [agreed] Mr. Kowalski: This being antiracism week in Canada, I had the opportunity to attend an event at Maples Collegiate, along with the Minis ter of Culture and Her itage (Mrs. Vodrey) today. It is their unity day. This is the second annual unity day to mark antiracism week. Their event today was called Making a Difference.

I want to congratulate the students and the teachers who assisted them for the wond erful program that they are putting on attacking racism in the community. They talked about how racism is not something that you are born with. It is something that you learn. They, as young students, are going to make sure that knowledge is the best way to combat racism. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor was present at the opening ceremonies, along with the minister, myself , Bill Balan, regional executive director of the Department of Canadian Heritage, and others.

Again, the work being done by this unity group is becoming world renowned on the Internet, and I want to congratulate the work that they are doing. Thank you. Committee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections be amended as follows: the member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) for the member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Stefanson), the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) for the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine). Motion agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Fourth Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr Doer), in amendment thereto, and the proposed motion of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) in further amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for Dauphin, who has 17 minutes remaining. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I am pleased to continue the words that I started yesterday on this government's budget.

I want to repeat my appreciation to the Minis ter of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), who yesterday invited so graciously in such a co-operative spirit those of us from this side to join with him in support of this budget. Madam Speaker, one of the advantages of having your time split between one day to the next is that you

626 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA March 19 , 19 97 get the evening and the benefit of the next early morning to think about the debates that we have in this Legislature and to think about the request that was made by the Minister of Agriculture, which I must say I appreciated hearing from. Yesterday, after hearing what the Minister of Agriculture had to say, I began to take a real good close look at the budget and the words that I was putting on the record.

I had mentioned that the Speech from the Throne had been heartless, cynical and arrogant and that sometimes it is supposed to be this way, that the Speech from the Throne and the budget work together in tandem. What I have to determine is whether this budget is just as heartless, cynical and arrogant as the Speech from the Throne was. I think after the words I put on the record yesterday, it is quite obvious that this is a heartless budget and it is a cynical budget, and I am assuming, as so many times we get the message from the members across the way, that this is indeed an arrogant government.

I want to continue my words in terms of the word "cynical." I have used the words "heartless," "cynical" and "arrogant." I want to key in on the "cynical" part. And I want to wonder aloud, for the benefit of members across the way, whether they very deep down agree with me or not, working still from the spirit of co operation that was so eloquently put forward yesterday by the member for Lakeside. Let us take a look at what this budget does in the area of helping people, because if this budget does help people, then I would not have any problem supporting it.

The government is putting $1 million forward to the Making Welfare Work program. That sounds pretty good on the surface of it, does it not? However, when you look at last year, they cut $2.6 million. They are still $1. 6 million behind. Should I support that? Should I support a cut to a program by $1. 6 million? Should members across the way support such a cynical move? Will the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) support the cut of $1. 6 million to this program and try to portray to Manitobans that somehow they are there for working people, that they are there to help out the everyday Manitoba family?

It sounds cynical to me. This government last year zapped some tax credits, $8 million worth. Were they restored in this budget? I would suggest to this government that if they had restored $8 million worth of tax credits that they got rid of last year that they might be able to make a case for support from this side. But did they do that in this budget? No, Madam Speaker, they did not restore those cuts, just as they did not restore the $1 0-million cut from Income Maintenance that they levied on Manitobans last year.

This budget could have reinstated the $5 million in income supplements for low-income families and for seniors. But did this budget do that? Did this government care to help out seniors and low-income families in our province? No, they did not. And now they want me to support this budget? In the area of being cynical, this government has talked about the ChildrenFirst initiative in which they have put $500.000. and they have given a 2 percent increase to Child Maintenance and External Agencies in this budget. and on the surface, again, it sounds like a pretty good idea.

But when you look at the amount of money that this government has cut from some of those same programs. when you look at the amount of money that is transferred from other programs just to hit this new target that they have announced in the budget. again you can only apply the word ''cynical'' to moves like that on behalf of this government. The initiatives that they announced fall way short of the $4-million cut to daycare last year. These initiatives fall short of the $1 0-million promise that they made to the Children and Youth Secretariat.

These initiatives announced in this budget in the throne speech fall vastly short of the $1 1 million that this government cut to the Children's Dental Program and to the foster parent funding. How can the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) and anyone else across the way ask me to support a budget as cynical as this one is? Let us look a little closer at the aboriginal people and the programs that this government is talking about in this budget. In the budget this government announced $1. 3 million for Aboriginal Health and Wellness

March 19 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 627 Centres. That is over three years. What they do not tell you in this budget is they have taken this money from existing community health clinics. Now that is cynical. That is arrogant. How can you support a budget that says on the one hand we are giving you money and take that money right out of the very programs that are helping aboriginal people in this province? Do you expect anyone to believe that that is the right thing to do? This government in the budget announced $200,000 for New Partners for Career programs.

What they do not tell you is that they financed this $200,000 announcement by cutting the aboriginal development programs, simply taking the money from one program helping aboriginal people and putting into another and then packaging this cut as if it is something new. Madam Speaker, the comments that I have put on the record so far lead me to conclude that I cannot support this budget. Despite the very eloquent, despite the very co-operative nature in which the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Enns) has portrayed it to me, I cannot see myself in all good consciousness on behalf of the people of Dauphin who are going to be nega tively affected by this budget, I cannot see myself responding in a positive way to the request of the Minister of Agriculture. While I am on the subject of how this is going to affect those people in Dauphin who I represent, let us take a good, honest look at what is happening in my riding because of this budget.

Let us start with the schools in my area. * (1 440) The Dauphin Ochre School Division is looking at a 2.8 percent decrease in funding because of the cuts of this government, and $43.5 million over the last several years has been taken out of Manitoba public schools. Dauphin has not been spared these kinds of cuts. They are projecting that seven and a half positions are going to be lost in the Dauphin Ochre School Area. Last year, 14 positions were lost.

What this government is asking the Dauphin Ochre School Area to do is turn to its own local tax base and raise taxes because this government does not want to have to do that. That is cynical. Sticking to the area of education, the young folks around Dauphin who graduate from high school and then want to go on for a university or a college degree have a number of obstacles against them, and these obstacles have nothing to do with their level of intelligence. It has nothing to do with their work skills. It has nothing to do with the quality of education that they receive from the Dauphin community.

It has to do with finances. Everybody can understand that coming from a rural or from a northern community, you have other kinds of obstacles that are in your way, and they are financial in nature. Right off the top, anybody graduating from the Dauphin Regional School this year or from Grandview or from Gilbert Plains or from Rorketon are faced right off the bat when they come to university with finding a place to stay, an additional expense that many students in our province do not have to worry about because they can live at home, but from Dauphin we have that obstacle.

What is this government's response to that? Well, this government announces decreases in funding to universities. Then the universities turn and they look to get that money replaced through tuition from the students. That hits my constituents in Dauphin very hard. The young people who can contribute to society get hit hard by that. I cannot support that in this budget, and that is what this budget is doing. It is cutting universities.

The Dauphin Regional Health Centre and the Grandview Hospital and the several personal care homes in the Dauphin riding are also nega tively affected by the cuts announced in this budget. Like I said yesterday, this government is trying to say on one hand that it is not cutting health care, that it is taking $10 0 million out of the stabilization fund to finance health care, but what the government does not tell you are those special warrants that they had to fork out last year that affect the funding. In reality, when you look at the whole picture, it amounts to a $66-million cut to health care.

I cannot support that. That means that the Dauphin regional hospital and now I presume in the move toward Parkland Regional Health Authority are going

628 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19 , 19 97 to be working with a lot less money, and that is not going to produce good health care. The last

section that I wanted to touch upon just briefly is a concern to people in the Dauphin riding, has to do with park fees and fishing licences, and in particular fishing licences for seniors.

I have heard a lot of comments around my riding and people contacting me who are very angry that after all these years of contributing to the Manitoba economy this government would have the nerve to charge a fishing licence to seniors on the promise that that fishing licence fee revenue would go towards fish habitat, fish enhancement, stocking lakes, and then find out this week when this budget comes out that that money is not going towards fishing. It is not going towards helping these seniors enjoy the outdoors and catching the odd fish.

It is going back into the general revenues of this government to be spent on things like tax breaks to people who do not need a whole lot of our money. The folks that I talked to in Dauphin do not see that as being fair, and that is exactly what this government is doing. [interje ction] I have been asked by the members across to say what they say. Well, in Dauphin they are telling me to tell the government to stick to its word and not take that money out of fees and put it into general revenue, but take that money like it said it would and put it back into fish enhancement, fish habitat and restocking lakes.

All they are asking you to do is do what you said you were going to do, not something else. And you are doing it with park fees too. The entrance fees that you are charging people now, the fines that are being charged for people in parks, as a penalty for attending our provincial parks, the elimination of the seniors' pass that your government managed to do, where are those fees going now? Let us compare what your government said was going to happen with those fees to where those fees are going.

Your government said that these park fees would go right back into building campgrounds, building picnic tables, building outhouses, building all kinds of facilities in these parks. [interjection] Whether the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) likes it or not, the money is not going back into where his government said it was going to go, it is going back into general revenue so that a very few people can benefit from a tax break that this government is so cynically putting forward. All they are asking you is to keep your word. They are saying, you took the money to put into parks, you should do it that way.

This government is not keeping its word in the area of park fees or fishing licences, and the people that I talked to are not very happy about that. It is just another tax grab by this government. Madam Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) yesterday asked me to support the budget. An Honourable Member: Indeed, I did. Mr. Struthers: Indeed, he did. And he did it very politely and very co-operatively, and I was very impressed.

Now, is the Minister of Agriculture or anybody else willing to see the other side of that coin and not be governed by the whip that the boss over there has put on them, but instead take a good honest look at this budget, like I did, and then decide that indeed it is not worth supporting, and that he should stand with me and my colleagues on this side of the House to vote against this cynical. heartless, arrogant budget, instead of simply standing up and getting the whip applied to them and in a very partisan way, instead of being brave, instead of being courageous and standing up for what they believe in. simply going along with it because the Premier of this province said that they must?

My hope is that the Minister of Agriculture will take his own advice that he gave to the House yesterday and stand in this House next week and not support this heartless, cynical, arrogant budget. Give me a budget that has honest figures in it. Give me a budget that does not misrepresent the revenue. Give me a budget that does not cut health care and education, and then I will support it. Until that time, I am going to stand and vote against this budget. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Committee Change Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with a committee change.

March 19 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 629 Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I would move that the Public Utilities committee be amended as follows: the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) for the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), and would be seconded by the member for The Maples. Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable member for Inkster, seconded by the honourable member for The Maples, that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources for 10 a.m., Thursday morning, be amended as follows: the honourable member for St.

Boniface for the honourable member for The Maples. Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. * * * Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): It is with great pleasure and pride that I rise today to address our government's very historic and significant budget. The fiscal year '97-98 represents a milestone for our government for many reasons. This is the tenth consecutive year that our government has tabled a budget with no increases in major taxes which affect the people of Manitoba.

My constituents in Fort Garry, and I am sure constituents in all honourable members' ridings, really appreciate this fact. Our government believes that Manitobans know exactly how they want to spend their hard-earned money. They do not need a heavy-handed government spending their money for them. I think that really that is the major difference of opinion with my colleagues on the other side of the House. Our side of the House holds that view very strongly. Members of the opposition appear to take a completely different view that they should be in charge of people's spending.

We all know that it is very easy to say something, to take a position, to make a promise, but it is not just in what we say, Madam Speaker, it is really in what we do. It is important to translate our beliefs and our statements into public policy. It is not good enough to dream; you have to wake up and take action as well. A good example of this is the federal Liberal government in Ottawa. They claimed to believe in a great number of things during the last federal election. They claimed, and they in fact promised a number of things. They promised that they would scrap the GST if they were elected.

Well, we know that promise has not been implemented; that in fact they never acted at all on their promise. They claim to support a strong health care system, but we see from the federal Liberal government hundreds of millions of dollars have been lost to the people of Manitoba as a direct result of federal government cutbacks. * (14 50) Members of this House remember the federal Liberal Party for promising jobs to the unemployed, but we see a national unemployment rate that is virtually the same as when that federal administration took place.

It is not difficult simply to promise things or to say and talk about what you would like to do. But my colleague from Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) has said, the game is played on the field. The federal Liberal government has not lived up to what they said they believed in. They have not put their beliefs into actions. I believe that is exactly what separates our government from the one currently presiding in Ottawa, from members across the way in opposition.

In fact, despite harsh measures from the federal Liberal government-and I say this not only with reference to their substantial financial cutbacks, but also their failure to act on beliefs and very important issues to the people of Canada, their failure to improve important legislation such as the Young Of f enders Act, their failure to deal with very important issues of the Criminal Code, despite the actions of the federal Liberal government or, in fact, the inactions-despite this, our province has been able to stay the course. We have been able to deliver good government to the people of Manitoba.

Our government believes that the tax burden on families should not be increased, that citizens we represent can look beyond what we say. They can look to their previous tax returns. Our government has not increased any major tax in a full decade. We see here the realization of our beliefs and also action. We are putting our beliefs into actions, and it is easy for Manitobans to see that fact. Madam Speaker, we have even gone further. As members opposite and the people of Manitoba know,

630 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA March 19 , 19 97 we have legislated balanced budgets, and we have made it impossible to increase major taxes in the future without first going to the people whom we represent by way of referendum. That, in fact, is a very strong action, one that I believe is being looked at across the country. This is a government which really believes what it says and does what it says it will do. Madam Speaker, our government also believes that we cannot starve future generations of the opportunities that they deserve. We should not mortgage the future of our youth.

I was with youth today at Maples Collegiate. I was just so impressed with everything that the youth have to offer and with what they want to strive towards. We cannot mortgage their futures and then have them pick up the tab for our deficits. Again, Manitobans can see our balanced budget legislation, and we are putting our beliefs into action. Madam Speaker, this is the third consecutive year of a budgetary surplus. We are not running deficits like the tax-and-spend NDP governments of the 1980s. We are paying down the debt.

We are reducing our debt servicing payments, and we are freeing up more money for the services that we all need and the ones that we all cherish such as health, education and services to families and children. In addition, Madam Speaker, our government believes that we should foster a climate for business to create jobs and for the economy to grow. The provincial economy ofManitoba has never been better than it is today. We have grown and we are poised for even more growth in many sectors of the economy. Madam Speaker, my colleague the Minis ter of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) announced strategic tax reductions which will improve our position relative to other jurisdictions and attract even more jobs and private capital investment to Manitoba. The one I am particularly pleased about as Minis ter of Culture, Her itage and Citizenship is the tax credit for film producers right here in Manitoba. I say I am enormously pleased, and I do not think I am nearly as pleased as the film industry itself.

The film industry, I hope that my new critic and I will get the opportunity to actually talk about some of the great successes in this area of the economy, because the film industry, Madam Speaker, has grown from a relatively small industry which amounts to approximately $500,000 a decade ago to an industry of about $35 million per year now. This industry is extremely optimistic about the future due to the fact that our government has improved the business climate in which they work. This is a boon to the film industry, to producers, to actors. to musicians, to writers.

It is a benefit to the whole industry itself and a definite benefit to the people of Manitoba. The opposition often claims that this side of the House is just too concerned with business and that we do not pay enough attention to the social side of government, but the film tax credit is a perfect example of how the two can successfully interrelate. I fully expect that more films will be produced here, and, as I have said. this translates into more films produced by Manitobans. more actors and technicians, and often these also touch on stories in Manitoba.

I take just one moment to say, too, that the cultural industries-as Minister respons ible for the Status of Women, women. in fact, have a tremendous opportunity within the cultural industries, and, in fact, they were among the first industries that accepted women in the nontraditional professions, continued to employ them. The opportunities within this industry for all Manitobans are just tremendous.

I believe that there will be a multiplier effect associated with this tax credit, but I also believe that there wi II be extended and indirect benefits to our cultural industries, and they will benefit immensely from the initiative. Without improving the business environment for the industry, the full potential benefits to culture in this province would not have been realized. Madam Speaker, I am extremely pleased to stand here today as the Minister of Culture, Heritage, and Citizenship and of Multiculturalism for our province. Our province is just wonder fully blessed to be as culturally diverse as it is.

We have a rich history and many of us have participated in a number of events to recognize that. We have a strong commitment to the arts both at the community level and also what have been called the ma jor agencies. I think that all

March 19, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 63 1 members of this Chamber would agree that we are just extremely fortunate to have such a rich heritage behind us. I believe that all Manitobans take pride in the diverse cultural life that we have in this province. Our ballet, the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, is world renowned, and dancers from all over the world aspire to dance here in Winnipeg. When I was growing up in Toronto, a friend of mine, a roommate, came to dance with the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, and I remember at that time how admired it was in terms of the place where I lived then.

In recent years, the Manitoba Theatre Centre has attracted world-class talent. It has put on world-class productions and, when those productions are taken outside of Winnipeg, as one of the most recent ones is, you will notice at the bottom of the credits, it says that all of the stage work and the construction of the scenery was all done right here in Manitoba. So even though we are lucky enough to have some of the plays co produced here appear in all other parts of Canada and some through the United States, Manitoba gets credit for the work that is done in the cultural industries.

The Winnipeg Art Gallery has one of the finest collections of Inuit art in the world and our Manitoba Muse um and Planetarium continue to serve as important educational tools. Winnipeg Symphony is nationally known for its long-standing tradition of superior performance. Madam Speaker, I believe that my department and this government in particular has been supporting the major agencies in partnership with a wealth of community volunteers as well, and we have created a climate where these industries can compete and succeed.

Impressive as all of this is, I believe that some of our support should be noted to the smaller, community based cultural events and festivals that occur all across this province. I am so proud of the fact that our �emm ent has continued to support community arts events. All of our world-class performers got their start in their own homes and their own communities, and I am really pleased with the work that we do in our community-based projects. There are many examples of where government has worked with local communities and nonprofit organizations to produce innovative festivals or perf ormances.

Through our Arts Development project support branch, our government supports audience and art skills development pro jects by festivals and arts councils and community groups. We also provide support to community arts councils such as the Flin Flon Arts Councils which provide significant benefits to their own communities. * (1 500) Madam Speaker, our government provides support to cultural initiatives for innovation and for excellence such as the Art Gallery of Southwestern Manitoba, the Manitoba Children's Museum and Rainbow Stage.

The Winnipeg Folk Festival is nationally known and it consistently draws brilliant performers and musicians as well as enormous crowds, not only from Manitoba but from all across Canada. Again, when I was living in Toronto before we moved to Manitoba, a woman I worked with told me that in the year we moved here she was going to be here just a little ahead of us because she was coming to the Folk Festival. It is known all across this country. I have also already touched on some of our support to Manitoba Film and Sound and some of the great successes in our film industry.

I am pleased to say that our commitment to this industry continues to grow, and I believe we will see just great things from local producers right here in Manitoba. I have touched on only a few of the impressive accomplishments that all of us can see in our own constituencies through our community arts, and all members have at one point or another benefited from the rich cultural life that we have right here in Manitoba.

Make no mistake, Madam Speaker, we are truly privileged not only for our successes in the larger agencies, which I have spoken about, but for the very strong infrastructure development for community-ba sed arts projects all across our province. I know that Manitobans recognize this. This government, again, has done what it said it would do through this budget and the budgets before it. We have provided support to our community.

632 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19, 1997 Recreation and wellness promotion is also an important part of what my department strives to improve for individuals and community well-being through recreation, physical activity and wellness programming. I, along with my colleague the Minis ter for Sport (Mr. Stef anson), will be hosting a ministerial conference for ministers respon sible for fitness, recreation and sport in Manitoba's Parkland Region later this year. In addition, the city of Brandon will be hosting the Canada Summer Games later this year as well as the Olympic team trials for curling.

Next year Winnipeg will be hosting the Brier, and then we all know that our province will be hosting the Pan Am Games in 1999. Over the next couple of years , Manitoba will be showcase to the world, and again, all members must feel a sense of pride about that. You do not always hear about it in this House from members opposite, but it is there in our communities. It is supported through our budgetary process.

On the citizenship side, I have responsibility for immigration issues within our province, and I would like to again say to my colleague the former Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship that his signing of the Canada-Manitoba immigration agreement certainly has helped our province be much more influential with the federal government on making sure that people will come here to Manitoba and that we have the opportunity to market our province around the world.

We have been very successful with that, but I do have to say that I have concerns about the right-of-landing fee which has been imposed by the federal government. I know my colleague the former minister took the concerns of Manitoba to Ottawa. He met with the federal minister, and I believe that the federal government does need to rethink the way that they are applying this fee because, Madam Speaker, we have benefited from people coming to our province.

Our province does have a very proud history of immigration, and our government would be concerned about any actions taken by the federal government which may impact on our ability to attract immigrants. As I said, our government signed the Canada Manitoba immigration agreement, and we have supported a promotion and recruitment campaign where information about our province has been placed on the Internet and potential immigrants click onto Manitoba. This is a very innovative way of recruitment. It was applauded by the national media.

I understand CNN carried a segment on this last April, and it has raised interest internationally in our province. All of this again supported through this government's budgetary decisions. Last year, 1996, marked a strong year for immigration in Manitoba. Last year, I am told, approximately 4.290 new Canadians settled in Manitoba, and we are seeing our efforts paid of f. In 1996, I am told that Manitoba showed an increase in all three categories of immigrants, including the indepen dent class, and that is good news for us in Manitoba.

Our government will continue to provide services to landed immigrants, and we will work with our community to ensure the federal government does not reduce support in the future. I look forward to now going into some more detail in some areas. but I would also just like to acknowledge the good work done by the Settlement & Adult Language Training Branch, Credentials Recognition and other areas of the Citizenship Division as well as many of the programs offered in multiculturalism, and I look forward to speaking with my critics about those during the Estimates process.

So, Madam Speaker, 1 think you can see I am very, very pleased with the work that is being done and this government's continued commitment to the areas of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Throughout our term in office, our government has also demonstrated its commitment to ensure that women enjoy equal rights and freedoms and opportunities within our society, and these were articulated in the statement of Government Policy on the Status of Women in Manitoba. That was introduced in International Women's Day in March of 1990.

The principles outlined in the policy statement have served as the foundation and the guideline for policies and programs and activities of this government. Again, that is what we stand for, Madam Speaker, but we have in fact acted and we have provided service and assistance to women in our province. -

March 19, 11997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 633 Nowhere has our dedication been more dramatically demonstrated than in our initiatives to stem the tide of violence against women. Our province has adopted a zero tolerance policy towards violence against women, and we have worked consis tently toward that goal. Many initiatives have been undertaken, and again I mention these because they involve our government's financial commitment to the people of Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, in 1990 we established the Family Violence Court which was in fact the first of its kind in Canada, and it handles cases related to partner abuse, child abuse, elder abuse, and the Family Viol ence Court provides specialized response to victims, acknowledging the unique issues and the dynam ics of these of fences, and the need to proceed through the court process as expeditiously as possible.

The court is sensitive to the needs of victims, with judges and prosec utors and staff specially trained in family violence issues, and as we have covered at other times in this House, I believe it is well known that the court has been expanded to several centres outside of the city of Winnipeg. There are also mandatory education programs for domestic violence offenders, and this is important to women that the offender who had left them a victim has in fact some opportunity to become educated and to change both behaviour and attitude about their offence.

Offenders on probation who fail to attend or to participate in the education program are considered to have breached probation, and new charges will be laid for failing to comply with the court order. Culturally sensitive services are provided and probation services will help any person of any language, including sign language and aboriginal languages, so that they can obtain core information on family violence education programs in their own language.

Of particular importance to women who are victims of domestic violence and in need of protection from an abusive partner has been the introduction of easier and quicker access to restraining orders, nonmolestation orders and peace bonds. Manitoba has taken the lead in urging the federal Liberal Minister of Justice to toughen legislation dealing with stalking or criminal harassment. We did gain some ground there. My colleague, now the Minis ter of Envir onment (Mr.

McCrae), when he was Justice minister, had stalking recognized in the Criminal Code and we continue to look for recognition of victims. * (1510 ) Here in Manitoba, Madam Speaker, we made changes to the computerized names listings in the Land Titles Office to further protect victims of violence. This protected name status, as it is called, was raised at our ministers' Status of Women meeting last year. Manitoba was the first to do this and there is not a charge. This is simply done by our government in living up to its promises to move to make our province a safer place for women.

There are some other initiatives, such as the central registry for domestic violence that has been established, and it is a sensible and available to law enforcement agencies and in the area of advocacy, the women's advocacy program. This program provides support and consultation to more women who are going through the court process involved in family violence situations. It has been expanded by this government to Brandon, Thompson and The Pas, as well as staffing levels in the Winnipeg office, I understand, have been increased to help manage the caseload.

This has been done by our government over the past few years, a continued commitment through the budgetary process. I just have a few statistics that from April 1, 1996, to February 28, 1997, women's advocacy processed 2,7 12 intakes. Women from all walks of life attended women's advocacy and services, and the services are culturally sensitive-and I mention this as a Minis ter of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. The services are culturally sensitive through English-, Cree- and Spanish-speaking staff, and translation services are also readily available for other languages.

Madam Speaker, to provide a safe haven and support system during a domestic violence crisis, Manitoba has developed the best system of shelters and support services in Canada for women and their children. In fact, over the past 10 years, the Department of Family Services has increased the funding in this area, I am told, by approximately 150 percent, an action by this government on behalf of women and children for their safety.

634 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19, 1997 I understand that during the 1995-96 fiscal year shelter was provided to approximately 2,500 women and their children. Manitoba Family Services also covers the cost of hotel stays for women and their children when shelters are full to ensure that women have access to shelter services when they are required.

Madam Speaker, another initiative which I would like to speak about, again supported by this government, is that Manitoba also funds services through agencies such as the Family Centre of Winnipeg, Evolve, Ma Mawi centre, the Northern Women's Resource service, Pluri-elles, Immigrant Women's Association of Manitoba, Opasquiak Women's Centre, and the Native Women's Transition Centre. Madam Speaker, another initiative in terms of women's safety is one called Keeping Saf e at Work, and this is to help employers and employees identify ways of making their workplaces safer, making crimes more difficult to commit.

This is a partnership project with the Women's Directorate, CIBC, our Police Services, and we launched it in 1996. It is ongoing now, and it has been presented across the province. Workshops have been given by members of the directorate, and now people who work at CIBC will go into communities and provide the training, assist them, using the booklet that was produced in this project to do safety audits of the places where they worked. So there are Train the Trainer workshops.

There have been public information sessions, and they have been conducted for participants from Flin Flon, Thompson, The Pas, Portage Ia Prairie, Brandon, Dauphin, Swan River and the city of Winnipeg. There have also been, I am told, approximately 400 hits, as they are called, on the Internet through Workplace Safety and Health's home page. About 43,000 pamphlets have been distributed across the province. Twenty- five workshops have been conducted throughout the province, and a number of TV and radio information sessions have been aired.

Madam Speaker, we intend to maintain our commitment to the goal of eliminating violence against women and making Manitobans feel safe on our streets and in our communities and in our homes. This government has not just been talking about it; we have been doing it. I would like to speak a little about the economic climate now. We have created an economic climate, so that all Manitobans, including women, have the opportunity to gain economic independence and have stability and security in their lives.

In the first two months of this year, Madam Speaker, there were 20,800 more jobs than there were a year ago, and while most women in the labour force work full time, approximately 67 percent in 1996, some women do make the choice to work part time, so that they can have time at home to take care of their family responsibilities.

Madam Speaker. just to give a perspective, given that part-time work accounts for about 21 percent, I am told, of total employment in this province, it means that at the end of the fourth quarter of '96, about 3. 7 of all employed people. both men and women, working part time, only that small group was doing so because they were not able to find for them what they considered to be a suitable full-time job. So we are committed to promoting women's economic security.

We strongly believe that the best security in the world is to have the means to be able to be economically self-sufficient, and to that end \Ve have undertaken a number of initiatives. Women entrepreneurs, Madam Speaker, are playing an increasingly vital role in Manitoba's economy and are starting their o\vn businesses. They now start more small businesses than men do, and more women than men are successfully still in their businesses after five years of operation. Moreover, small- and medium sized businesses continue to create more jobs than any other sector.

Both the departments ofl ndustry, Trade and Tourism of our government and Rural Development offer programs specifically for women, designed to assist them and help them start their own businesses. The Business Start Program, through I, T and T, has been extended another two years. Targeted towards women and rural entrepreneurs, it is a loan guarantee program which allows entrepreneurs to borrow up to $1 0,000 to match their equity contribution. This has provided about 207 loans to women to date. The Rural Entrepreneurial Assis tance program again has been of great assistance to women.

To date 33 loans have been granted to women, a total of over $1

March 19, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 635 millio n, of which 80 percent is guaranteed by the province through credit unions or through CIBC. Aside from loan guarantees, both I, T and T and Rural Development offer services such as start-up seminars, training in the development of business plans, how to conduct a market analysis, as well as a mentorship program. Madam Speaker, there are a number of women who have been very successful in this area. I will just mention a few, since some of them have been award win ners, very well recognized across the province.

Linda Pizzey is one who has transformed a significant portion of the family's I ,200 acre farm in Angusville into a value-added bread and pancake mix industry; Shelly Drohomereski of Teulon has started a specialty greenhouse operation that produces herbs for hotels, restaurants and speciality stores on a year-around basis; and one other, Evelyn Smith Upholstery from Fisher Branch, specializes in upholstery work for industrial applications. She now specializes in the car and truck industry and now has distributors which carry her products in Ontario and Alberta.

Successful women, able to achieve economic independence, able to look at some of the initiatives this government has put forward as other women in Manitoba to become economically independent. We are also targeting our spending in the areas where it is needed most. We provide significant benefits to lower-income Manitobans who are supporting children through the Manitoba tax reduction. This benefit provides up to $250 of tax relief per child, and it is one of the few tax benefits in Canada that is related to children.

This figure is amazing: It puts approximately, I am told, $30 million each year into the hands of parents to provide for their children. Madam Speaker, we are also very supportive of the National Child Benefit announced by the federal government. Manitoba will redirect any savings in provincial social assistance towards services and benefits for children. We know that proper nutrition is vital to learning, so we have introduced Students at Risk funding to assist families as wel l. *

(1520) In speaking of children and families, our government believes that the best form of social security for an individ ual or a family is a job. We are committed to breaking the cycle of dependence on social assistance. Job training, specific skills training are available for clients on social assistance. This enables women and all of our citizens to have the opportunity to participate in our growing economy. We have, therefore, refocused training and social assistance dollars, Madam Speaker, on assisting social assistance recipients to move to employment.

Manitoba Education and Training and Family Services are working to help social assistance recipients attain the training and the job placement supports that they need to be able to support themselves and to take the first step on the road to self sufficiency. We know Manitobans want to work. They would like a hand up and not a handout. Since the introduction of welfare reform, there has been a reduction of almost 676 in the caseload of single parents, of which 95 percent of those, Madam Speaker, are women.

In addition, I am told 22.7 percent, or approximately 3,900 social assistance recipients, are reporting incomes since the inception of Making Welf are Work. This is a government, again, who has moved towards programs that have a direct positive effect on the people of Manitoba. I will just outline just a couple of the welfare work initiatives, such as Community Services, Rural Jobs Project, the Manitoba Conservation Corps, Opportunities for Employment, Taking Charge!, and Youth NOW.

Each of these programs, Madam Speaker, will help more people achieve self -reliance and also independence, and we build on the success of these programs through the investment of approximately $1. 5 million more than budgeted in '96- 97 to the allocation of Making Welfare Work.

Madam Speaker, I know in terms of working, particularly for women, the issue of child care is one which needs to be looked at, and I can say single parents, over 95 percent of whom are women, and who want to work to support their families, do need access to reliable and quality child care services; and, together with child care organizations and providers, the

636 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19, 1997 Department of Family Services will be developing recommendations for a more flexible and accessible child care system for Manitoba. I know that our colleague the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) has been working very hard in that area with the Minis ter of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson). Madam Speaker, I know I do not have much time left. I do have a few other programs which I want to speak about in terms of their benefit to women, programs which I believe our government has made a significant impact in a very positive way. First is Legal Aid.

Manitoba is the only province in which the legal aid system has been revamped to provide 50 percent of its funding to civil cases and 50 percent to criminal cases.

In the past, because the vast majority of defendants in criminal legal cases are male and because provinces have dedicated a larger share of public funding for legal services to criminal cases, women have not shared equally in the legal aid funding, and Manitoba has recognized this as an inequity and now provides equal funding for civil legal aid to assist women who primarily require legal services respecting issues such as divorce and custody applications. Madam Speaker, in the area of Maintenance Enf orcement, our government has taken ma jor steps to ensure that court-ordered maintenance payments are enforced.

Last year the amendments to The Family Maintenance Act came into effect, and there has been a marked increase in the amount of money collected through the program. There is as well increased authority to demand information from family members, emp loyers and associates, and it means that the program can now gain what is vital financial information. As a result, I am told that during 1996 collections increased to $3.7 million, the numbers of summonses issued to defaulting payers to appear in court have decreased, and the garnishment of wages was up approximately 240 percent over the same period in previous years.

That is the benefit seen when we can get information about the payer so that we can make that person pay. Madam Speaker, I understand too that there have been approximately a large number of driver motor vehicle licence suspension notices, about 407, with 59 having been suspended, and 58 7 refused-to-renew notices have been issued. Also, many of those notices which have been issued have resulted in cash payments of arrears.

Madam Speaker, in the area of Education and Training, as I said, self-sufficiency is really a high priority for our government, and there have been a number of initiatives which have been put forward by the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcin tosh) in Distance Education.

Distance Education is extremely important for women because they find it very difficult to leave their families and their communities in order to obtain training, and a number of initiatives that have been put forward to women living in communities, Manitobans living in communities all across this province, have been a benefit to women so that they do not have to leave their families. Madam Speaker, I would just like to mention very quickly two other things.

I am very proud of the Training for Tomorrow Scholarship, which is administered by the Women's Directorate, a commitment of this government, $50,000 per year, developed and administered by the Women's Directorate. The program offers fifty $1 ,000 scholarships to women entering two-year diploma courses, and, in fact. there have been 141 scholarships awarded to women entering diverse fields such as electrical engineering technology, chemical and biosciences technology. computer analyst program, just to name a few. Women have the opportunity now, by this government. a project introduced by this government.

I just want to mention, as well, for women in the area of breast screening that a province-wide breast cancer screening program first introduced in 1995 is aimed at the early detection of breast cancer primarily in women aged 50 and older, and I understand in the 18-month period, July 1995 to January 1997, approximately 17,809 Manitoba women aged 50 to 69 years accessed the screening program.

Madam Speaker, this is a program that probably will save a life and will, in fact. provide for women early detection and the opportunity to fight a disease, to then become healthy and to continue for years living with their families. For all of these reasons I am very supportive of our government's budget. I see it as a continuing effort to not only make a promise, but to follow through on our

March 19, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 637 promises with action, and actions that I am very pleased also affect the department that I am so privileged now to be the minister of, Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and Status of Women. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I am pleased to be able to stand here and put a few comments on record, but before I do I would just like to share something that happened this weekend.

My mother tried to get a hold of me on Sunday, and she was not able to because I was out, and by the time I got back it was fairly late, so when I did get hold of her she said that she was moved to a hotel and that there had been flooding. She is a resident of 185 Smith Street. I said, well, do you want me to pick you up and bring you home? Oh, no, no, she said, everything is going really good here, and she said everything is wonderful.

When they moved her back Monday, we had a nice long conversation and she was raving on and on and on about how well she was treated, all the residents of 185 Smith Street, how they were treated and everyth ing, and I just wanted to take this moment on her behalf and on behalf of all the residents to thank the minister and the staff of Manitoba Housing for the wonderful care that they gave those residents, because they had nothing but positive things to say.

The staff of Manitoba Housing went right out of their way to do what they could for the residents, and some of them were very elderly, and some of them had to be carried downstairs, but it was all done with a great amount of dignity, and they all appreciated it very much. I just wanted to put that on the record because where credit is due, I think people should get the credit, and I think the staff deserve a great amount of thanks from all of us. *

(1530) I would like to just start my few words on my critic area, dealing with immigration and multiculture. I am encouraged by the new minister's words and the action I saw the other week when she was attending the same function that I was at the Indian and Metis Friendship Centre for the Winnipeg Boys and Girls Club. She was well received and she had some very nice things to say, and I hope and I think that she will carry that on and do the best job she can for the people who will need her assistance and help.

I know that a lot of people that I have spoken to in different committees that I have been part of and different public meetings I have attended, the thing that keeps coming over and over and over very loud and clear is the whole $975 fee that is imposed on people who wish to come to Canada. Also on top of that is the $500 nonrefundable processing fee per adult, and that is hurting a lot of people. The whole process of immigration to our great country is now being geared towards business class and people like that, where it is taken away from family memberships.

Family reunification, I believe-and I am sure the minister would agree with me to a certain extent-i s very important because when we have family members just living in another community or in another town or, for my case, in the Northwest Territories, you miss them, and it is hard to keep that continuity within families unless you write letters and make a lot of phone calls.

It is very important for families to be together, but when we are concentrating more on business class, and we are bringing a lot of the people in in that category-f amily reunification was cut 25 percent to offset the increase in the business class-! think we had better do some serious thinking here. It is okay for this year and maybe next year and the year after for the business class people to come here and start businesses and, hopefully, stimulate our economy, but there is a time when the business class is going to say, hey, what about my extended family or my family that is in another country?

The grandparents and uncles and aunts or brothers and sisters, if we are slowly decreasing the possibil ity of bringing family members over, I think we had better start doing some serious thinking, because it might work for now, but later on it will have a negative impact on the business class, the people that we want to attract to our country. Eventually, they might say, well, I had better not go to Canada because I know I cannot bring my family over. I had better go to some another country where I know my family will be able to come with me later on.

That, I hope, the minister will do some thinking on and, hopefully, talk to the federal

638 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19, 1997 Minis ter of Immigration and ask her to start thinking along those terms. Extended families that I have spoken to that want to try and bring their grandparents over, some of them, their parents- they were saying, well, how can I come up with $1 ,475 when it is so much to save and to not know for sure if I am going to get my family here or not? I totally agree with them, because that is, I think, something that the federal government will realize that it was a big mistake, hopef ully, and will correct it, but right now it is still there.

We know that we have to work hard on immigration because we know that immigration is the engine fo r economic growth. When you have new immigrants come to Canada, right away you have a customer potentially to purchase a house, buy furniture and what else have you, even automobiles, and on and on and on. So the immigration that we get from other countries only helps to expand our growth in our own province.

But, when we say that, when we say that immigration is the engine that drives our economic growth, and, yes, we agree we want-or I do anyway-increased immigration to Manitoba because it will stimulate the economy and it will continue to give us the diverse province that we have, then we look around-and I hope the minister will address this very serious problem-at new Canadians or new immigrants who come to Manitoba, and you see indiv iduals who were highly skilled in their own countries who are driving taxis or working in restaurants or working at very minimum, low-paying jobs, but they are not maximizing their chosen career path that they had in their own country. (Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Where we keep talking about accreditation programs in Manitoba, I would encourage the minis ter to look at it in sort of a training/work experience model where, if an immigrant that comes to Manitoba has their country's accreditation or degree or diploma that we look at it and we do a task analysis and a skills analysis of that degree to meet our Manitoba or Canadian standards.

That way when an indivi dual walks in with their diploma or accreditation to whatever the accreditation office is there, it will be evaluated and then you look at engineering or lawyers or doctors or electricians or plumbers or what have you, and then we say, okay, you have these skills, but you are missing these skills.

What is wrong with setting up a specializ ed training program for the individ uals to enroll and take the portion that they need to get their Manitoba or Canadian accreditation to work at their chosen careers at a salary, I am sure, that would benefit their familie s': You group individuals like that.

Say, for instance, if you have 12 or 14 from countries that are wanting to be engine ers or wanting to be lawyers or doctors or plumbers or electricians, and if that course is. say, regularly four years. well. why should an individual, if they have part of those ski lls and knowledge in those areas, go through the whole fo ur years? Where if we did a special ized program, say, for a year or two years or whatever the need be, and specialized it to meet their needs, then upon graduation they will gladly go work in their chosen careers and I am sure they will be very. very happy citizens.

A lot of individuals you talk to. they are very happy to be in Manitoba and Canada, but they are really not very satisfied with the employment opportunities that are out there. On the next step. when we talk about that, we talk about skill shortages in rural and northern communities. I hear that many times, where you hear there is a shortage . In fact in northern Manitoba there was such a shor tage of underground engineers that they had to recruit, I think it was from England at that time. Then there was a shortage of millwrights, when they were developing some of the dams, they had to recruit in England again.

So the skill-shortage areas are out there in the rural and northern communities, but what I would enco urage the government and the minister to seriously look at and consider is if you are going to develop the training and the job experience initiatives for people from another country, look at the funding process. If an individu al is going into a training program for a year or two years, adequately fund those individuals at the start of the training program, to ensure that their housing needs, their family needs, their food, rent, whatever, is there.

That way those indivi duals can concen trate on the first task at hand as their studies to ensure that they graduate. * (1 540)

March 19 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 639 When you fund that per individual, then everyone is going to say, well, it is going to cost the government a lot of money. There are two things. A lot of the people that go into these training programs are trying to juggle two or three part-time jobs, look after the family, plus study on top of that.

Well, that is pretty, pretty difficult and awful discou raging for a lot of individuals, but if you funded the trai ning program fo r these individuals and upon graduation if the individuals were asked to repay 100 percent or part of, whatever the government comes up with, at the degree of income that indi vidual would be earning, it would be much easier than trying to make ends meet when you are trying to hold down two or three jobs and study; or if a person chooses to go to a skill-shortage area, then all of or a portion of the cost for training, if the individ ual stayed in a northern community or a rural community or whatever skill shor tage area for a certain period of time, would be fo rgivable.

I think that would be of benefit to Manitoba ns, it would be of benefit to people that come to Manitoba to make their new home and it would help us to encou rage more immigration to our great province. I just wanted to leave those few things with the min ister, and it is up to her. I hope she will do some thinking on it, and I know it cannot happen overni ght-! am realistic -but it would be encouraging to do some thinking on that. The other thing is I was very surprised when I was reading this paper.

I guess what is happening with the whole process of immigration is that there is such an emphasis now on individuals' ability to speak English or French bef ore they come to Canada, and what I am scared of is it is going to di scourage a lot of people or make it diff icult for people from Asian countries and the Philippines, dif ferent countries, to make Manitoba their home.

When I looked at the cutbacks to English as a Second Language, the cutting of the funding, and I was reading the EthnoC ultural Network from last year, they were speaking to this one woman, and she said, well, yes, most of us need language training, but in the future I do not know if we can afford it. She said, I just received a letter from Red River Community College's Language Training program. Next fall, each student will have to pay $500 for a five-month English course that until last year was for free. That is scary. I do not know if it is provincial or federal.

I am not sure where that funding was, but that scares me because you know and I know that for a lot of the people who come here without that English as a Second Language training, it will be difficult to get real meaningful employment opportun ities. They will be stuck at low-end-scale paying jobs, and I do not believe that people came here to just fulfill that. I think people have come here, like we all do, with a dream, and I hope we will do whatever we can to encou rage people to fulfill their dreams and their career aspirations and their goals.

The other thing that I hope will be addressed at some time in the future is the whole funding that was taken away for the Manitoba Intercultural Council. I am a big supporter of that because I saw how it worked, and I valued the input and the commitment that the individ uals had. All the organizations that were part of that were from almost every visible ethnic group that there was in Manitoba.

I know that there were representatives from the black community, the Chinese community, the Philippine community, on and on and on, and they pooled their skills and their minds together to try and do what they fe lt was best for the so-called multicultural ethnic community. The grant process was sort of arm's length from the governmen t, and I am sure that they got together and they said there is X numbers, who needs it the most? And, you know, it is at the whim of the government now for funding.

That was such an important program, I think, for us all and especially for the ethnic community that I am sure it was benefiting. I hope the government will look at rei nstating the funding for that. I am not too optimistic about it because maybe what they have in place is working, but I know that from my experience and from what I hear out in the community, MIC was an excellent program, and it worked very well. I support it 100 percent because that is what I know best from the inf ormation that I have received and the experience I have had in the past.

So I just wanted to move on to communities, and I will use the community I represent, Point Douglas, as a good example. There are a lot of individuals in Point Douglas who could really benefit from training that

640 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 19 , 19 97 would lead into employment opportun ities. I know the government has put some programs in place, and we applaud the government for that, but there are also indiv iduals, especially single mothers, single parents, single mothers, who have a dif ficult time trying to get into training programs, because of the numbers for one thing, and the other thing is opportu nities for transporta tion away from the home and all.

But would it not be nice if we looked at a community, even as a pilot project, a community as a whole, and we looked at the schools in those communities, and those schools, the David Livin gston, Willia m Whyte, Norq uay School, a lot of those schools are vir tually empty in the evening, virtually empty every evening.

Now, if we had those schools open to the community, where if we had training programs for computer training fo r single parents or aboriginals or whoever needs it and if you had the computer training program or other training programs and they were taught, and we say there is not a lot of money, well, let us look at some of the students we have in our education programs. A lot of the students need work experience.

So if we had those almost-to-graduate students running the classes and if we had the gyms opened up with phys ed students or high school students that are looking at achieving credits, if they ran the recreation programs for the community chi ldren and if we had another space in the area to look after, say, like a daycare setting, now there should be nothing stopping an individual from being able to access training to upgrade or develop further their skills to be marketable or to be much more marketable than they are now.

I think those are the kind of ideas that we have to start looking at, because I know, I know, that there is a scarcity of dollars. We all know that, and we all talk about priorities of dif ferent parties, priorities of dif ferent governments, but I think we have to start looking at innovative, new ideas, and I am just throwing that out.

Hopefully, people will discuss it and see if anyth ing could be done about that. (Madam Speaker in the Chair) I know that in some community meetings that I have had, that was asked many times, and we have discussed it and we have talked about it, and that was raised many times: Well, why do we not use our schools? Look, we are heating the dam things all nig ht, you know, the lights, sure, the lights are off , but not all the lights are of f. They are sitting there empty and we could use them as a community.

I do not see anything wrong with that because, as you know, a lot of small communities, that is what they have to do, because there are not too many individual gymnasiums in some communities. The only gymnasium is in the school, and that is utilized more and more for children. I wanted to move on into health care, because that has been a topic or subject that has been raised many times. We all know that without our health it would be very dif ficult for us to do a lot of things that we do today.

We look at governments now, the so-called, well, I do not know if you call them cutbacks or tax increases or what have you, but they are a hardship on individuals. We just look at the Pharmacare, the eye examinations, checkups and on and on and on. * (1 55 0) It does make it really dif ficult for individuals, but what really surprised me. and I do not think the government has thought this out too well, because now communities that want facilities in the health care area have to raise 20 percent of the cost.

When I heard that I got to thinking right away, well, it might be fine and dandy for Winnip eg. where we have a big community. but look at some of the communities. You look at taking 20 percent out of communities that are smaller communities to say that is their share that has to go into building a health care facility. Now, 20 percent of fundraising dollars has to come from disposable incomes that individuals have after they pay their rent, their mortgage, their food, clothe their chi ldren, pay their car payments, buy gas. That is extra dollars. Where do you think those extra dollars are going right now?

I would venture a lot of it is not going straight to the banks or RRSPs or whatever. I bet you a lot of it is going to hockey teams, baseball teams. Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, Cubs and Brownies. So what happens to those that are dependent on those dollars now, those recreation funds or extra activities that the students and chi ldren have to raise funds for? Well. you know yourself there is many a time we have youth or chi ldren come to our doors with a box of choc olates or brownies or Girl Guide cookies, whatever. Why are

March 19 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 641 they doing that? That not only happens in Winnipeg, it happens right across the province, even the community of Churchill where I was raised. That is a small community. It is not a rich community. Most people are seasonal workers. Now, if they had to pay 20 percent, I can tell you minor hockey will be gone, baseball will be gone and the Boy Scouts and Girl Guides would suffer tremendously. So I do not know. Also what it does, it might help communities that are so-called stable employment areas .

I guess Winkler and Morden would be a good example, because a lot of people farm or a lot of the people are gainfully employed in those communitie

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-13
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 13.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d2224deaac627e7cbcc8c4c11a160ab95f273ae8

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