Manitoba Hansard — 15 December 1988 (Sitting 99, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-99

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

B-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 99 - 1:30 p.m., THURSDAY, DECEMBER 15, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Sieve BURRELL, Parker CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CI1ARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Gulzar CHORNOPVSKI, Willlam CONNERY, Edward tfon. COWAN, Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie EVANS, Leonard Fll!.MON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen Hon.

GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KQZAK, Richard, J. LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. MALOWAY, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Clayfton, Hon. McCRAE, James Hon. MINENKO, Mark MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. OLESON, Charlotte Hon. ORCHARD, Donald Hon. PANKRATZ, Helmut PATT ERSON, AUan PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren ROCAN, Denis, !Hon. ROCH, Gilles · ROSE, Bob STORIE, Jerry TAVLOR, Harold URUSKI, Bill WASVLVCIA-LEIS, Judy VEO, lva CONSTITUENCY Osborne St.

Norbert Thompson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkirk Kild onan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du lac Robli n-Rl)SSe!l Conc()rd.ia Arthur Emerson Niakwa Riel St. James Lakeside _j:: harleswood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Vir d. en St. Boniface Minnedosa Ell ice ·. Kirkfieid Park · The Pas Ruperlsland mmn Logan Transcona lnkster Eh"!'WOOd A� niboia /r{1ticr.1� ·. ; 'Bra�clbh west • Seven Oaks ·. River'East. Rossme�e Gladstone Pembina La Verend.rye Radisson Rhineland Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Turtle Mountain Springfield St. Vital Flin Flon Wolseley lnterlake St.

Johns Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, December 15, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): would like to. this afternoon, table the High School " Review. Mr. Speaker, this morning, I met with the High School Review Panel and received the High School Review from the panel, which is entitled "Challenges and Changes." I would like to thank the members of the panel for the effort that they have put into the report ond the quality of work that they have put into the report .

This document is being widely distributed to ducational organizations , colleges , universities , Chambers of Commerce, the Manitoba Federation of Labour, home and school associations and many others tor comment and reaction . At this time, I would like to indicate that a letter is going out to all organizations with regard to the intention of the tabling of this report, which really requests that organizations respond to the recommendations that have been made within the report and that those responses are going to be asked for by March 1, 1989.

At that time , we will be enacting some of the recommendations and certainly blending the recommendations of the High School Review along with the responses to the recommendations . Additionally, I would also like to say that at this time we are going to the Policy and Planning Committee for getting their responses to this report. So I am very pleased to be able to table this report at this time . •

(1335) Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Do we have the opportunity to respond to the statement made by the Minister? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: He has made a statement. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I believe I recognized the H9nourable Minister for tabling reports, but it is apparent that the Honourable Minister was making a ministerial statement which, by the way, I would like to bring-order, please.

Our Rule 19.(4) states quite clearly that .on a ministerial statement, copies of the announcement or the statement shall be mad~ available to Leaders of the Parties and the Speaker at the time the announcement or statement is made, which contravenes our rule- Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I will apologize to the House for not making a copy of the statement availabl~ to the Parties. In tabling the report, I thought that Members of the House wanted a bit of an exJllanation as ·to what was going to happen with this report, because I am sure in Question Period they would be asking.

I am pleased to table some of the statements as well. Mr. Speaker: I will give the opportunity to the Honourable Members of the OppQ _sition- .the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. · Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): We are ?bsolutely delighted that at long last-I think pemaps if one were to use the Liberal computer and tabulate the number of times we have asked for this report, it would go on and on and on. An Honourable Member: It would break down. Mrs. Yeo: That is right . I am going to read through this report very carefully .

I realize that in the report there are recommendations addressing the adolescent in the changing society. There are recommendations with regard to the adult learner and the unique aspect of their situation in the field of education . I am anxious to read about the clarification of regulations concerning the rights of access to student recards that I understand is addressed fairly carefully in the report. It is my understanding too that there is a

section regarding involvement of community in the work of the school. I would say that last night I · experienced a tremendous example of that in Sturgeon Creek High School where 350 senior citizens were entertained and were fed. To me, that is exactly the recommendations that the High School Review Committee was looking at.

I am anxious for May 1, 1989, which was the date that the Minister stated , and I will tell you, on May 2, 1989, if we have not heard a little bit more about this , we will start right then badgering because we know that it takes this year, for instance, from January 1988, when the review was promised, to December 15, 1988, when we finally received it. So we will start immediately on May 2, 1989, asking for the responses that were promised today . Thank you. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): I would like to thank the Minister for the copy of his remarks as well.

We were anxiously awaiting this report, have been for many months. Perhaps the Minister could have been more forttrcoming wifll this report and provided it an earlier date because the problem that I foresee with the announcement at this time is that the March 1, 1989 , deadline for recommendations and review by organizations outside of Government is quite limiting 4131

Thursday, December 15, 1988 in many resp ects. Cert ainly, if the Mini ster had t abl ed this report or could have been able to table this repo rt a month ago or two months ago , it would have-given those organizat ions a b etter time to prepare . Mr. Speaker , let no one believe for a minute that this is not an important exercise . It was undertaken in all seriousness by the previous Government and by the Review Commi tt ee itself , wh ich ts extremely representative of the interest in education in our society , and we believe that the time frame for review ·of the report is important and is extremely short . •

(1340) I should also say that the timing of the release of this report and the timing of the recommendation deadline is also a limiting factor . What we are_ doing here really Is wasting a year because the Department of Education is currently preparing its Estimates . This makes It almost certain now that nothing will be done in terms of additional support to school divisions for needed changes to our high school system for at least another year. That is unfortunate .

The changes that are desired, the changes that -are needed, the changes that should have been forthcoming are now going to be well into 1990 before they happen . I think that is an unfortunate circumstance for many people who are looking for reform of the high school system . Nevertheless, I look forward to reading the full report , the recommendations, and I can assure the Minister that the New Dem6cratic.Party will be active in soliciting views and coming to some understand ing about what recommendations are implemented and how they are implemented . Thank you very much . Mr.

Speaker: I am pleased to table the Statutory Report of the Chief Electoral Officer pursuant to Sect ion 10(2) of The Elect ions Act on the Thirty-Fourth Provinc ial General Election . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Speaker: I wonder if we might have leave to reve rt back to preseflting ·Reports by Standing and Special Cqmmittees . · (Agreed) Mr. Parker . Burrell (Swan River): I beg to present the First Report of ·the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments . Mr.

Clerk, William -Remnant: Your committee met on Tuesday, December 13, 1988 , in Room 255 of the Legislative -Building and elected Mr. Harry Enns as Chairman . · Your. cqmmitteEi°heard representations on Bill No. 8, The c ·ou"rt of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practice s Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant la Lo i s ur le recouvrement des petites creances a la Gour du Banc de la Reine~ as follows: Mr. Ge.orge Finkle - Private Citizen Your committee has con sidered : .., Bill No. 8 The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practice s Amendment Act ; Loi modiliant la

Loi sur le recouvrement des petites creances a la Gour du Banc de la Reine . Bill No. 23 . The Regulations Validat ion Statutes Amendment Act ; Loi modifi ant diverses dispositions legislatives afin de valider certains regleme nts . Bill •No. 27 The Private Acts Repeal Act ; Lqi abrogeant certaines lois d 'inter et prive . And has agreed to report the same with certain • amendments . Your committee has also considered: Bill No. 6 The Fires Prevention Amendm ent Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la preventio n des incendies . Bill No. 9 The Statute Law Amendment (Re enacted Statutes) Act ; Loi modifian t diverses dispositions legislatives (Lois readoptees) And has agreed to report the same wit hout amendments . All of which is respectfully submitted . Mr. Burrell: I move, seconded by the Hon ourabtr, Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gillesmimmer) , th at th• report of the committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to _ oral questions, may I direct Honourable Members' attention to the public gall , where we have from the St.

Avila School twenty Grad!· 5 students under the direction of Mrs . Patti Lovallr1 This school is located in the constituency of th Honourable Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angu s). We also have with us from the Lakewood Scho ol fifty Grad e 5 students under the direction of Mr. Dan Maharaj . This school is located in the constituen cy of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandr ake) On behalf of all of our Members , I welcome you here this afternoon . ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Civil Service Political Appointment Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) .

During the electi on campaign and in the last Session of thi s Legisl ature. we heard this Government talk about the importanc e of depoliticizing the Civil Service. It went back to the days of Duff Roblin, who we all know was the hero of 4132

Thursday, December 15, 1988 the current First Minister (Mr. Filmon) . In some ways, he chooses wisely. But now, what we have is the very same thing from this Government, and one could hear echoing and reverberating in this Chamber how this Government would have responded to the actions that it now takes . My quest i on to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) is simple . Why did he hire the former political assistant to the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) to become the Communications Director in his department , when the competition bulletin right here specifically states that it is open only to Civil Service staff? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I thank the Member for that question, because I somewhat looked forward to answering the question in the House today because I think there has been a bit of confusion about this particular issue . When the Communications Director from my department. resigned because he had taken a position with the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, we did bulletin the position.

It was done internally so that we would give preference to those people within Government, within the departments who may want to take opportunities to advance from their positions to a position of a Communications Director . In checking with the Civil Service , it was very much in order for people like the assistant to the Minister of Health to apply for those positions and in fact that was the advice that was given to us. This position, Mr. Speaker, was advertised in a normal fashion . I -did not have any input into the selection of the committee that interviewed the people .

It was done through the Civil Service . I have no apologies to make to the House or anybody else in the fact that somebody who was an assistant to the Minister of Health was able to take an opportunity that was available within Government. •

(1345) External Applications Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, with a supplementary question to the same Minister. this bulletin says "Open to Civil Service staff only." This is the bulletin that was available to people and to which they responded. My question to the Minister very simply Is how many other external applications were there for this position which was bulletined "Civil Service staff only"? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, it was not external.

It was an internal bulletin as the Member points out and, therefore, according to the Civil Service, Members such as the successful candidate were eligible to apply for the position. Mr. Speaker, I have to tell you that the Member who was the successful candidate went through the normal channels, is extremely qualified for that kind of a position, and through the Civil Service was recommended very highly as head and shoulders al'>ove all the other candidates that had applied for the position. Depoliticization Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a final supplementary, the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) himself has spoken time and time again about the necessity of depoliticizing the Civil Service . Bafflegab ·· of the Minister of Education notwithstanding, we have a former political assistant to the Health Minister (Mr. Orchard), a former Member of the Tory caucus staff who has now been given a Civil Service position . Wnat · is the First Minister's position on depoliticization of the Civil Service in Manitoba? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that anybody should be hired in the Civil Service by virtue of political influence .on that hiring process.

As a matter of fact , that is precisely what happened in this case. · The Civil Service Commission has confirmed .that the applicant had every right to apply for the position because, as an employee QUhe Government, she was absolutely eligible for hiring in that position . So the Civil Service Commission accepted her application as they would with anybody who fit the requirements and who was within the qualifications which included an employee of Government being one of the qualifications-internal bulletining, Mr. Speaker .

The committee that did the hiring process consisted of a Deputy Minister of Education, who was not a Deputy Minister who was seen to be political or hired by this administration, a Deputy Minister hired by the former administration , two department officials and a Civil Service representative. none of which were political appointees or involved in any way in the political process. The Minister had no

part in it, nor any Member of this Government had any

part in it. The only way in which we could have politicized the process would have been to intervene and deny her the opportunity to have that position . That is the only way we could have made this a political action , and we chose not to be political about the situation . Mr. Carr: The Member for Arthur (Mr. Downey) wants us to debate Meech Lake . I-am interested to hear the Minister of Northern Affairs ' (Mr. Downey) speech on Meech Lake. I have a question to the Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae). Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Order . Free Trade Agreement Liquor Pricing Policies Mr.

James Carr {Fort Rouge): I have a new question t9 tne Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae) . Mr. Clayton Yeutter, in the United States trade representative's report to the U.S. Congress, says that provincial liquor commissions will have to conform to certain requirements of the Free Trade Agreement , and some 4133

Thursday, December 15, 1988 of these changes will have to be in effect by or on January 1, 1989 . In particular, listing practices and pricing policies in most provinces appa rently fall short of the requirements of t he Free Trade Agreemen t and favour domesti c prod uct ivity as do dis tribut ie n practices. Since January 1, 1989, is fast approaching , will -the Attorney-General tell us what impac t•these changes will have on Manitoba 's liquor and wine industr y? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): The ' information that I have from the commission is that there are no policies of the commission that violate the Free Trade Agreement. •

(1050) Mr. Carr: The question is, will Canadian producers be more or less competitive given the requ irements under the FTA? What pricing policies has the Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae) in mind to make sure that Canadian domestic producers of spirits and wine can remain competitive , given these restrictions apparently wh ich have to come into effect by January of 1989? Mr. Mccrae: My understanding is that we do not have any restrictions that would violate the Free Trade Agreement , which makes the Honourable Member's questions hypothetical. Mr.

Carr: I understand that there is a 5 percent pricing different ial in the markup between Canadian spirits and spirits which come ac"',-oss the border from the United States . What does the Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae) intend to do over the next little while to assure that Canadian producers remain competit ive? Has there been any studies done to determine the impact of these changes and when will the Minister come back and report to this House? Mr.

Mccrae: The commission is indeed monitori _ng the requirements of the Free Trade Agreement , and I will put · the Honourable Member 's question to the comm ission for their review and get back to the Honourable Member . - -Home Care System Review . Mr, Jay .Cowan (Churchill): My question is to the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld) .

Thre e days ago during the Estimates review of the Seniors Directorate, the Minister refused to agree to direct th e Seniors Directorate to immediately evaluate the impact of the cutbacks and the reductions in the Home Care ·Program which are being implemented by the Government . ... Hon.Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): There are none . . Mr. Cowan: . The Minister of Health , from his seat , says there are none, but just this week , we have given an ·examp .le of three of those . We have examples of more. An example, a woman who has been on Home Car e since 1983 .

She lives alone and has degenerating disk s herself_ Her husband is waiting for triple by-pass surge ry. She was cut off of Home Care recently _ A wom an w ho is 65 years olq_, Home Care since 1984, cut off of Home Care last week . A woman who has had Hom e Care for the last 14 months was informed yesterd ay that she will be cut off-. She lives in her own apartme nt, she has a chron ic lung condition and is on permanen t disability. Since the time that the Ministe r refused to und ertak e the evaluation , there have been these exam ples and many others .

There are more toda y; ther e may well b more over the next few days . Is the Minis ter now prepared to begin to live up to his responsibi lity to advocate , as he says he should , on behalf of seniors and immediately undertake a structure and a full evaluation of the ongo ing changes to the Home Car Program and the impact of those reduction s and cutbacks on the seniors of this prov ince? Mr. Orchard : On a point of order. Mr. Speaker: Order please . The Honourable Min iste. of Health, on a point of order. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker , just on a point of order, and I will allow my colleague to answer the questi on My honourable friend , in posing the question , is factually in error. There have been no cutbacks . The progr am funding- Mr. Speaker: Order , please . The point of order is what specifically? Mr. Orchard: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The criterion for entry to the Home Care Program have not changed . Mr. Speaker: Order , please . The Honourable Min ister does not have a point of order. He knows full well that a dispute over the facts is not a point of order . Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for Seniors): I asked the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) at committee the other day and I asked his Lead er in the House yesterday or the day before , if they have such names , bring them forward to me and we will investigate them , and we will advocate on their behalf if we deem it necessary. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker , we have given names publicly. We have told of other instances where senior s are afraid to have their names go forward to the Govern men t, because they are afraid of having what little services they have left cut off even further .

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please . • (1355) 4134

Thursday, December 15, 1988 POINT OF ORDER Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery) from his seat has said that we are so full of bull that it is silly. I believe those comments reflect badly on himself, but I think more trollblesome is that they are a direct attack on individuals who wish to come forward with information, to have that information acted upon by the Government in a rational , responsible way and not be suggested that they are bringing forward extraneous items to this House .

I would ask the Minister of Labour to withdraw those comments, not on behalf of Members of this House but so that residents of this province feel free to be able to bring that sort of information forward and they do not have to be fearful of that sort of an attack . Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please . Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on the same point of order, the Honourable Member knows and everyone else knows that he does not have a point of order, and that a point of order ought not to be used as an opportunity to make a speech . Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Government House Leader. Order, please . In the hopes that the interjection mikes did pick up what the Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) alleges that the Honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery) did say, we will have to review Hansard . All I could hear was what was coming through on your mike.

I will review it and I will come back to the House . Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker, from his seat again, to my colleague, the Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak), the Minister of Labour said he would put that on the record. I would ask, in order to clarify the matter , if he is now prepared to do that . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Government House Leader. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker , on the same point of order. If the Honourable Member would cut the foolishness and get on with Question Period, I think the pe·ople of Manitoba would be better served .

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Order . The Honourable Member for Churchill, on the point of order. Mr. Cowan: I think it is extremely unfair and a violation of the general intent of Question Period for the Government House Leader (Mr. Mccrae) to stand in this place and impugn motives and suggest that what we are doing by way of protecting the rights of individuals to speak out on their own behalf through elected officials is a bunch of foolishness . I would ask him to withdraw that statement for the very same reasons that we would like the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Connery) to withdraw the statement he made . This is not foolishness; this is not bull. lhis is the speaking out on behalf of the most vulnerable members of our society so that they will enjoy the full services and protections of the Legislature. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please . I have taken that point of order under advisement .: . User Fees Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Churchill, with a supplementary question. Mr.

Jay Cowan (Churchill): Given that the Price Waterhouse Report suggested exactly these kinds ·of incremental reductions and cutbacks in the Home Care Program and then went on to suggest the imposition of user fees in that program, and it appears as if the Government is trying to sneak those in through the back door rather than being up front about their intentions, will the Minister of Seniors (Mr.

Neufeld) undertake the evaluation that he has said he would undertake if he was advised of concerns to ensure that we are not going to be faced with user fees when this House does not sit any longer- and we cannot direct questions to the Minister? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I have said before and I will say again that if he brings forward the names to us we will investigate . I will make the statement right here and now, if he gives me the names, I will personally visit those people and the names will not be made public . Review Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member for Churchill, with a supplementary question . Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker, it is not a personal visit that seniors want on the part of the Minister of Seniors Directorate . What they want is action by the Government as a collective body to ensure that the Home Care Program is preserved, protected and enhanced where possible .

Is the Minister prepared to take the time that he would have spent making those personal visits and sit down with his staff in his directorate and ask them to formulate a full and structured evaluation of the changes in this program arid how they can be monitored . and evaluated so as to ensure that there are no further cutbacks and r.eductions to senior citizens? 4135

Thursday, December 15, 1988 Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, we have asked for the names . The Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) will n"ot give us any names . How are we to know? It is our contention that there has not been a cutback. If he insists , that there has been a cutback and he has told us that he has numerous names of people who haye phoned him , let him give us those names and we w·ill investigate . Mr. Cowan: Well, the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) from · his seat says that we do not want to help those people. On a point of order , Mr.

Speaker, he is shaking his head but that is indeed what he said- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order , please. The Honourable Member for Churchill, on a point of order. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker, it is hard enough to get senior citizens to come forward who are in a vulnerable position because they are fearful because of statements like we have heard today that their programs will be further cut off by this Government because of their complaints . I have heard" that from the mouths of senior citizens directly. I will give to the Minister, as we have in the past, names of those individuals- Mr.

Speaker: Point of order , please . Mr. Cowan: On the point of order-who have indicated that they want their names put forward . I can tell him as well that ttiere are many others who are not coming forward because orthe type of comments that the First Minister has put on the record today . I would ask the First- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please . The Honourable First Minister, on the point of order . Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, on that point of order, I indeed said that the Member for ·churchill (Mr. Cowan) does not want to help seniors .

All he wants to do is come into this House and grandstand . He does not want to give us the names . If he wanted to have them helped, he would give us the names so that we could go and help them. All he wants to do ie-·grandstand in front of the cameras . If he really wanted to help seniors , he would come here and give us- Sonie .. Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. -Speaker: Order, please . Order . Mr. Cowan: · On the point of order, Mr. Speaker . Now the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) has definitively and definitely impugned motives in a most distasteful way. (lnterjection); I wish the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Connery) , would hay1f the courage to stand in his place and put th"c>se sorts of comments which he is throwing from his seat clearly on the record so that people can understand what type of Minister they are really dealing with when they-deal with the Minister of Labour for this province . But not to be distracted from my original point by · ·hfs comments , I ask the First Minister to withdraw any imputation of motives in a most large and liberal fashion so as to follow the best of the parliamentary traditions of this Legislature, Mr. Sp.eaker . Mr. Speak~r: Order, please . Mr. Filmoo: Mr.

Speaker, under no circumstances · do I want to offend the sensitivities of the Member for Churchill, nor do I in any way want to breach any rules of parliamentary conduct . I just say to you and to all Members here that if that Member wants to help senior citizens he will bring us the names so that our Minister s can investigate, get to the bottom of it and solve the problem, not go through this grandstand charade that he Is trying to put us through . Mr. Speaker: Order, please, order, please.

As I have told Members many times, we are not at a tea party and I would caution all Honourable Members to pick and choose your words wisely. The Honourable Member for Churchill , with his final supplementary question . Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker, one cannot go about dealin g with the many reductions and cutbacks that th l Government has imposed upon seniors through th Home Care Program in an ad hoe manner, awaitin g calls from senior citizens who are somewhat fearful In the first instance to bring that information forward . I would ask the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon), given that is the case and given that he is certain that there ar no cutbacks and reductions in his own mind with respect to senior citizen 's services unaer the Home Cara Program, is he prepared to ask the Seniors Directorat e or ask the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr.

Neufeld) to direct the Seniors Directorate to undertake a lull and structured evaluation of the changes to the Home Care Program and the impact of those reductions and cutbacks on senior citizens in this province , so that either his thoughts can be proven out or what we aro hearing from senior citizens everyday in this provinc e can be dealt with by matter of Government policy and not on a case-by-case matter? Mr. Filmon: First and foremost, there has been a $10 million increase in the expenditures on the Home Care Program in Manitoba .

Secondly, there have been no policy changes with respect to the delivery of service s in the Home Care Program. Therefore , there have not been cuts . The premise to his question is totally false. If he has indications of any instances in which people are suffering unduly as a result of the decisions of the Department of Health with Home Care, let him bring us those names of the people , and we will investigat e and we will satisfy ourselves and him that we will take care of the services that are necessary. Free Trade Agreement Labour Retraining Programs Ms.

Avis Gray (Ellice): We have heard in this House for the last seven months that the Free Trade Agreement 4136

Thursday, December 15, 1988 will not have any negative effects, only positive benefits . We know, however , that segments of the garment industry will be adversely affected . Jobs will be lost and jobs have been lost. Over 100 people have already lost their jobs because of the closing of Wescott, and indications are , in the industry, that other manufacturers will lay off workers as well. These are real people and they deserve real answers from the Government . My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst) .

What is this Minister and his department currently initiating with the garment industry unions, with the advocacy groups , on behalf of these workers, and with the federal Government, to establish appropriate, realistic retraining programs for these people? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Firstly, let me set the record straight.

Wescott Is not closed; Wescott is operating at the present time and will continue to operate until at least February or March-I just forget the exact date-of 1989. i Secondly, there are about 800 ,jobs in the garment 1 Industry right now vacant for which companies cannot find employees . Great West Garment, for instance , has been advertising constantly in the newspapers and the radio and with a sign in front of their building for the last month and a half and have been unable to find employees to come and work for their company .

In terms of impacts on the garment industry, the Manitoba Fashion Institute also indicated they look forward to free trade. They see it as an opportunity for their companies and their employees to have an . additional market _ 1111d a secure market in which to operate. Garment Industry Labour Retraining Programs Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): With a supplementary question to the same Minister, if the Minister 's information is correct, then perhaps he can - Some Honourable Members : Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please ; order, please. The Honourable Member for Ellice has the floor . Ms.

Gray: If this Minister's information is correct , then perhaps he would tell us what he is doing , as Minister of his department, to make sure that those workers who are now on unemployment insurance and do not know what their future is , especially around Christmastime, what he is doing to ensure then that they will get into these jobs if they are there? What are you doing to ensure that? These people are desperate and they do not know what their future is. So what are you doing? Hon.

Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): As I indicated, there are some 800 jobs available in the garment industry at the present time for which garment companies cannot f.[nd employees . In addition to that, the garment industry has come to the federal Government Department of Unemployment and Immigration and they have come to us and they have said, would you please go to the federal Government because we want to implement a new immigrant program to deal with the lack of available people to deal with those jobs in that industry .

They are short employees for those jobs and they want to now embark on an immigration program in order to fill those jobs . Ms. Gray: With a final supplementary to the same Minister, there are advocacy groups in ttie community on behalf of some of these workers . As an example , SEARCOM , the group who works with South East Asians, they phone Government departments and they get buck passing . Can the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism ([Vlr. Ernst) tell this House today, has he contacted .some-of these community groups who deal with ftiese people? They are getting -(Interjection)- The First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) from his seat sits and says, have they c;ontacted him? Have you ever heard of pro-activity and foresight and planning on that side of the House? *

(1410) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker : Order , please ; order, please . Immigrant Advocacy Groups Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Ellice, with her final supplementary questioR, Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): The First Minister says, have they ever heard of ads? If the Minister knew anything about these workers , he would know that English is not their first language and require special assistance from the Government to ensure that these people get the jobs . My question to the Minister of Industry , Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Ernst) is, is he willing to look at working with these advocacy groups and take into consideration that English is not their first language , so specially designed retraining programs or a system of programs must be made available to ensure that these people get into new jobs? Is the Minister prepared to do this through his department? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): There are 8,000 employees in the garment industry in Winnipeg. A great many of those people are new immigrants to this country . Many of them belong to the same organizations that the Member for Ellice (Ms .

Gray) referred to and, if they have a difficulty with English, I am certain that their confreres who work in all of these co_1npanies would advise them of vacancies to ·which they could apply. . At the same time , I am quite prepared to meet with any group who has a concern with in the community. They have not contacted my department to date . 4137

Thursday, December 15, 1988 Waste Disposal Sites Classification Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): My question is to the Minister of Environment and Labour (Mr. Conn ery). The dumping of septic liquids , the disposal of toxic chem ical containers, the burning of refuse and the dumping of sewage lagoon sludge are all practices that req4 ire or should require a Class 2 licence for waste disp osal grounds . Normally, there is also full publ ic disclo sure of all activities contemplated . Studies are undertaken to determine potential negative impact and how they can be best mitigated against .

Also , there is usuall y a public hearing process by the Clean Environment Commission . Can the Minister of Environment -(Interjection)- Oh, he is here, yes . Can the Minister of Environment expla in to the House why the Poplar Point Waste Disposal Sit e, which is in his own riding, I might add, does all of the above but is licensed only as a Class 1 operation without the benefit of a Clean Environment public hearing ? Why has Poplar Point been treated in such an exceptional f!ishion .and, to use the bureaucratic euphemism , treated with special provisions completely against- Mr.

Speaker: Order , please; order, please . Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Chicken Little was running around yesterday , but I was not here. Some Honourable ~mbers : Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please . Order . I have reminded the Honourable Minister on numerous occas ions that we refer to Members as Honourable Members . The Honourable Minister of Labour -(Interjection) - orde r, please. Order. The Honourable Minister of Labour to withdraw. Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker , I would be pleased to withdraw the comment. Mr. Speaker: I thank the Honourable Minister of Labour.

Mr. C~nne,y: · The Member was prepared to ask that question yesterday. I had our department thoroughly , and I mean thoroughly, investigate the situat ion at Popl 1ir ·Point .--There is nothing being done illega lly to the _nth degree of the law that the legisla tion has. There is limit_ed burning allowed. There is the availabil ity of disposing of waste from septic tanks and so forth. Ther e is absolutely nothing in my department's analysis going on at Poplar Point that is not fully within the legislation of Manitoba . Regulations Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Wolseley (Mr.

Taylor) , with a supplementary question . Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Aware as I was that the Mil}is.ter did have an official out on site, I thought I will 4138 be available for the press with photographs of what was -happening Monday afternoon which are - maybe the Minister can explain this , Mr. Speaker . Can the Minister explain how the dumping of septic wastes in liquid form, the burn ing of chemical containers , the burning of regular refuse , the dumping of sewage sludge , the not having fences in place , the not having gates locked, how that meets the regulat ions?

It meets neither the former regulations nor the exist ing. Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): The Member is right when he talks about fencing , and the fencing is not in place and placed properly. There is plastic fenc ing around and the city just started in that particular dump at the beg inning of December. The ground is froz en • and it is wintertime . That will take place and they ar prepared to do it and it will take place as soon as they can. All of the other things that are happening at that dump are within the regulations of the laws of Manitob a Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member for Wolseley, with a final supplementary question . Mr. Taylor: The Minister has admitted what is going on and , if he will read his own regulations , he will s it is out of line. Environmental Contamination Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): The final supplementary . Mr. Speaker , relates to studies that were not carri ed out .

The quest ion I have is, how does this Minister assure or what assurances can t_bis Minister give that . the very important well in the community pastur immediately south of this facility will not b contaminated by leaching chemicals and leach ing biological agents into that watercourse , and also how the people nearby on the south side are not going to have airborne toxics hitting their farmsteads? Would he care to explain that , given no studie s were done? Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): All of the stud ies required - and I can assure you that as the Memb er for Portage la Prairie and before I was a Minister , we followed all the procedures and I was very involve d with the people from Poplar Point . In fact , I had a meeting in Poplar Point to explain the new dump to them . Mr. Speaker, we have wells all around the dump to monitor on an ongoing basis to see if there is any possibility of something moving from that dump . This dump is as environmentally safe as any dump can be ascertained .

I am confident that there are no problem s at Poplar Point. Free Trade Agreement Impact Report Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would like to address a question to the Minister of Industry , Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst). The Prinie Minister establ ished a task force on the impact of free trade, and I believe that Mr. Jean de Grandpre was appointed as the chairperson of a federal committee to prepare a report

Thursday, December 15, 1988 on who are the winners and who are the losers under the Free Trade Agreement . I understand an inter im report has been prepared . Given the great cooperation that the Minister of Industry (Mr. Ernst) says he has with the fede ral Government , I wonder if he can advise us if he has received a copy of this ·report yet . Does he know who are the winners and who are the losers in Man itoba under the Free Trade Agreement? •

(1420) Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry , Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker , to answer the quest ion from the Member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), no, I have not received a copy of an interim report. However , let me say this, that as I understand the newspaper

article no doubt to which he is referring , Mr. de Grandpre 's committee is a comm ittee on free trade adjustment and it was to study , I believe, Mr. Speaker , If memory serves me correctly , adjustment measures and other types of assistance programs from around the world and then report that to the Prime Minister , so that he can develop those kinds of programs on a federal basis that are as good or better then any that exist anywhere else in the world . Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, the fact is there are going to be some losers, and obviously that is implied in the Initiative that the Minister refers to.

Industry Incentive Grants Mr. Leonard Evans- (Brandon East): On a related matter , I wonder if this M inister can assure the Legislature that Man itoba will not suffer any loss of federal industrial incentive grants under the Free Trade Agreement. I refer specifically to the Silica Metal Plant which is being considered for Manitoba by the Dow Corning Corporation, at which point I believe , when this was announced , the general manager indicated that in his opinion his U.S. competitors would object to industrial grants as unfair subsidy.

Will the Dow Corning Corporation be able to get a federal industrial grant, given the fact that we seem to be under way with this Free Trade Agreement? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker , to the Member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), regional development activities' grants and other support mechanism for regional development purposes are excluded under the Free Trade Agreement . They are permitted , Mr. Speaker , and will be permitted in the future . That is not to say that anybody cannot make a claim that it is unf~ir . Mr.

Speaker, they can make all kinds of claims if they want . Whether they are acknowledged or not is another matter . Mr. Leonard Evans: The point of my question yesterday , we do not know what the definition of regional incentive grant is. We do not know what the definition of a subsidy is. Therefore , there is a great deal of question around this matter and a grea t. deal of uncertainty . lnterprovincial Trade Barriers Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): On a relateg . matter , the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr.

Doer) wrote to Premier Bourassa of Quebec on November 1 regarding the trade barriers that we have to put up with, particularly with regard to made-in Manitoba transit buses. We have not received an answer . So I would ask the Minister of ln9ustry (Mr.. Ernst) whether he has any indication from Quebec on whether we will be able to sell our buses tci that province . We can sell them to New ·Jersey without any trade barriers , Mr. Speaker . Can we sell them to Quebec? Is Mr. Bourassa now ready to allow Flyer buses in that prov ince? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry ~ Tra.de and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker , within a five0 week period of being appointed Minister , I attended the first of what has turned out to be several meetings of Trade Ministers from across this country working on just that kind of problem, the removal of interprovinc ial trade barriers . Mr. Speaker, that is a major problem in this country . It is a major problem in western Canada . In addition to dealing with interprovincial trade · barriers on a national basis , we are also working very closely with our colleagues in western Canada to try and reach an accord of even greater proport ions for the four western provinces .

Home Care System Appeal Board Mrs . Sharon Carstaira (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , with a question to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) , for some time, both under the previous administrat ion and with this administration , I have encouraged the formation of an independent appeal board for those who are in receipt of Home Care delivery . My caucus , as well as the NOP, has rece ived complaints about cutbacks which the Government denies. But , Mr.

Speaker, these are vulnerable people , and they are people who are afraid if they complain their services will be cut back even further -and so they do not complain . Will the Minister immediately establish an independent appeal board for the delivery of Home Care, members of which would include members at large but also include members who are in receipt of Home Care service? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I believe, if one read the Price Waterhouse Report, that some recommendations to that direction were made and , Mr.

Speaker, I have to ind icate to my honourable friend that those recommendat ions are under act ive consideration . But, Mr. Speaker , my honourable friend, the Liberal of the Leader Party, is indicating - An Honour,bl6 Member: The Liberal of the leaderless Party. Mr. Orchard: Liberal of the Leader Party-well , regardless , I think everyone knows to whom I am 4139

Thursday, December 15, 1988 referring. If the Liberals do not know who their Leader is, I cannot help them . Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order , please. Mr. Orchard: I do recognize my honourable friend 's concern because I am sure she shares , a:; we do on this side of the House , that no unfair,tlecisions are made in the administration of the Home Care Program. I do give my honourable friends in the NDP

section of Opposition some credit in providing the odd name but , to date, I have not received any from the Liberal Leader or her Party. Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Honourable Member for Osborne, on a point of order . Mr. Reg Alcock (Oeborne): Just to correct the information that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) put on the record, I expressly spoke to him and wrote to him about one of these matters two months- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Honourable Member does not have a point of order . He knows that a dispute over the facts is not a point of order. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, I have so many entertaining conversations with my honourable friend , the House Leader of the Liberal Party, that I did forget that one complaint he made . We resolved that one, as is always possible, in the Home Care Program . However, before I ean undertake any review within the department to see whether the decisions made by staff in terms of provision of service of Home Care, I have to know who those individuals are.

We will , as I have said before, because the program is funded additionally $10 million , there has been no change in the policy by which the program is administered , by which people are admitted or discharged from the program . I will gladly take any complaint that my honourable friends have, investigate it , and make a~urance to the Honourable Member and the individual that the de<,isions made are correct. Mr. Cartair : With a supplementary, Mr.

Speaker , would the Mini.star- act, not only on the request of the Price Waterhouse report , but much more importantly . · upon the request for the League of the Physically Disabled who have been requesting this for five years . and put into place immediately this appeal board so that -he would not have to get complaints from us, so that the compraints can go to a board that can in fact affect real change and real help for the people who most desperateiy need it. Mr. Orchard: I have indicated to my honourable friend _that s1:1ggestioi;i is under consideration .

I simply indicate to '.my. honourable friend that the one complaint that came from the Liberal Party was dealt with expeditiously. Mr. Carstairs: Perhaps we can get the Minister to give us a time frame . Will it take him a month? Will it -tal<e ·him six months? Will it take him a year? Will it take him to the end of the mandate? When will these people ,..,get their independent appeal board? Mr. Orchard: All of those are a distinct possibility, Mr. Speaker . . Hazardous Waste .Information System · Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): I have a questio n for the Minister of Workplace , Safety and Health (Mr. Connery) .

The Workplace Hazardous Mater ia l Information System came into effect on October 31. During Estimates on December 1, when I question ed the Minister on compliance of regulations , he indicated , and I quote from him, he said : "Actually, the regulation s do not really come into real play for 90 days after October 31 ." Really, it is about the end of Janua ry when they really come into effect. Has he had the opportunity to have a look at those regulations ? Can the Minister tell this House when primary suppliers musl provide suppliers labels and data sheets with ali controlled products sold in Canada? Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): I cannot remem b , the exact date that they will be in place, but I will get that information for the Member . *

(1430) Stop-Work Orders Mr. Harry Harap,iak (The Pas): I wori'der if the Mini ster can tell us if it has been necessary to issue any stop orders because of non-compliance with Workpla c Safety and Health Hazardous Material Informatio n System not being complied with . Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): There has been non to my knowledge. Once again, I will double-check with our department . If there has been , I will inform th Member in this Legislature. Hazardous Goods - Labelling Blood Samples Mr.

Harry Harapiak (The Pas): A question to the same Minister , there seems to be some confusion in the health care field on how blood samples , which may cont ain hazardous materials , are labelled when they are taken from the hospitals to the laboratories. Can the Minist er tell us what type of labels are required and are they being used? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): We went through the Estimates process -(Interjection)- We went through the Estimates process -(Interjection)- Once again, Mr.

Speaker , we went through the Estimates process and the Member could have asked all of those detailed questions when we had staff in place to answer the detail. We will provide that information to the Member . 4140

Thursday, December 15, 1988 Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired . SPEAKER'S RULING Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. On December 8, the Honourable Member for Dauphin (Mr Plohman) rose on a matter of privilege, alleging that the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Penner) had misled the House .

In a 1987 ruling , Speaker Phillips, quoting Maingot's "Parliamentary Privilege in Canada " pointed out that , and I quote "to allege that a Member has misled the House is a matter of order rather than privilege ." The Honourable Member alleged on the basis of events which occurred in the Committee of Supply on December 7 that the Honourable Minister had , in the Member's opinion, misled the House at an earlier time . The committee, therefore , is the place where the Honourable Member should have raised the issue .

The House can only consider a matter of privilege originating in a committee upon receiving a report from a committee on the matter . If the issue being raised by the Honourable Member is based on the fact that in his opinion the Honourable Minister had misled the House on November 2 or 3, then I would be compelled to rule that the matter is not being raised as required at the earliest opportunity .

To conclude, because the subject matter deals with " order" not " privilege ," and because ·it should have been originated irr1he Committee of Supply , I must rule the matter raised by the Honourable Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) out of order as a matter of privilege . COMMITTEE CHANGES Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move , seconded by the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer)- Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, please. We have had a few complaints already about Honourable Members not knowing whether or not they are on a committee . I think if we would paid attention to what the Honourable Member (Mr.

Helwer) for Gimli is about to say, Honourable Members will know whether or not they are on the committee . Mr. Helwer: I move, seconded by the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) , that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: Orchard for Mitchelson . Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): I too have a committee change. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema), that the .-composition of Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: St. Norbert for Ellice; St. Vital for Radisson . ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) , that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to her Majesty . MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider ocf the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty will) the • Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair . · COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Mr. Chairman, Mark Minenko: We ·will co·ntinue considering the Concurrence Motion . Mrs . Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr.

Chairperson , while waiting to ask other questions, I will ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummings) whether he can make an announcement on the Selkir"k Landing Project and, if not an announcement now, when will that announcement be able to be made? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Municipal Affairs): Mr. Chairman, I am not in a position to make an announcement.

The Selkirk Landing Project has been , I know , sitting for quite some time and has been anticipating some response from me which I have been wanting to bring forward but, at the same time , we are trying very hard to make sure that the situation regarding downtown renewal in this province in not a piecemeal situation, because the example on the programs that are used in one area that needs downtown renewal very quickly become a precedent and a direction that can be moved by Government in supplies and services demanded of Government.

I would have to advise the Member , when we first came to office , she will recall that she wrote me a letter asking if I had appropriations to deal with that project and I advised her at that time that I did not. I have since had meetings with the mayor of the town, cordial meetings I would like to indicate, but it would seem to me that we are faced with a difficult situation in terms of dollars. This agreement appears to have come about as a result of a staring match between the former Premier and the federal Member in the area .

The $2.2 million or approximately $2.2 million that has been indicated as part of the money that has been provided under a Community Futures Program is an extremely high figure for the province to attempt to match . Mrs. Charles: Can the Minister indicate whether he has researched the legal aspects of the promise made by the previous Government in committing the · Government to the funds? Can he make a comment on that , as I understand in past cases it has been upheld in the courts, that a promise made by a previous Governmi;nt "must be carried through by the following Government? 'Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that there is little validity or little precedent that would support 4141

Thursday, December 15, 1988 the letter from the former Premier . There seems to be no record of Cabinet or Treasury minutes that would indicate that it was anyth lng more than an Tndication from the Premier during the heat of the debate. Mrs. Charles: The Minister speaks of setting a precedent, and I can certainly appreciate the cqncern that the Minister has in that area fer developing one community over any other and without setting priorities and standards why that development takes place . I · have some questions to ask the Minister of Trade (Mr.

Ernst), but first I will ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummings), for obvious reasons , because the Town of Selkirk, as I have mentioned many times in this House, is in a unique situation, being a satellite community competing with the City of Winnipeg . I do not think we have a town in the same district that can be seen as comparable to the Town of Selkirk . •

(1440) I would only point out to the Minister , as I have gathered i"nfotmation, that the Town of Portage la Prairie which has approximately 13,500 people has annual retail sales of about $75 million . Steinbach , which has a town of 8,000, has annual retail sales of about $159 million , and granted that is because of specialization in certain areas. But the Town of Selkirk, which has just a little over 10,000 people, has a retail annual sales of only about $45 million.- (Interjection)- I would think that the Minister could appreciate that the Town of Selkirk , unlike what the Member for Arthur (Mr.

Downey) is trying to point out, is · in dirJict competition with the City of Winnipeg and that we have to have all the prices to compete with the City of Winnipeg. We try to, as retailers and merchants, keep the prices down so that people would not go into the city, and on the other hand everything we do costs us. We have to pay freight out to the Town of Selkirk from any order from the City of Winnipeg .

We have to pay long distance t_elephone charges to make those calls to order freight and yet our community is in between Selkirk and the . · city, and it is many times much easier for them to go to the city to get lower prices than it is to come to the Town of Selkirk . So I would think the Minister could appreciate that maybe special consideration should be given to satellite communities when they are in direct competition with . half the market in Manitoba .

I mean , we are not talking about an equal market, we are talking about a market that is overwhelming, that anywhere in the Province of Manitoba trying to compete with the City of Winnipeg is very difficult, and for a community that is half-an hour's worth away trying to compete and yet having to pay_ all the overhead charges is even that much more so. so· I would ask" the Minister if he has considered that- in ·allocating funds to downtown redevelopment for the Town of Selkirk , in that it would offset or help dffset what they have to do to compete with the City of Winnipeg . Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Chairman, I could and I will expand in relationship to the Town of Selkirk but, first of all, letine say that in all of the communities that the Member for _,Selkirk (Mrs . Charles) identified in her

preamble , along with Brandon, Dauphin and several others, one of their major problems is .not only downtown renewal but an even more pressing problem is the infrastructur e for sewer ar:id water . The Member knows the figure s as well as r do. I am sure that probably $100 million could be spent in the Province of Manitoba in centres outside of the City of Winnipeg to deal with their sewer and wat er situations .

Particularly in towns that are experiencing some growth and some industrial growth, before they can even access industrial growth, they have to be able to provide services that meet environmental standard s. They have to have water supply that will be adequat e for the needs of certain industries . I might share with the Member for Selkirk (Mr s. Charles) concerns that were raised at the national Municipal Ministers' meetings where the lack of infrastructure in a lot o'f communities across thi s country-and let us just talk about Manitoba in relati on to that.

We are slowly but surely developing an environmental problem that is associated with .this Sewage disposal is enhanced by volume in terms ot efficiency and the City of Winnipeg naturally, with al least half of the 60 percent of the population of the prov ince and a large industrial and commercial base. has the advantages of size in terms of being abl e to deal with waste. But we cannot expect or experien c growth outside of the City of Winnipeg if we are not prepared to invest in and help those communities invest in that type of infrastructure .

I have to tell you quite frankly that is also one of th considerations that we as a Cabinet are going to hav() to grapple with is the priorities of where we are prepar ed to invest once we get outside of the perimeter of th city. If we are talking about infrastructure versu s downtown renewal, I can tell you that there are major problems because, if we want to have growth in these communities, it would seem to me that the renewal oi the infrastructure vis-a-vis sewer and water may very well be demonstrated to be of a higher priority and the Town of Selkirk itself has problems in that direction.

If they have an industrial base , of course , they can then draw from that tax base to do something in regard to their own downtown renewal. I might indicate somethin g further that is also troubling me in the process of tryin g • to decide if there are funds that can be used in this direction that I could recommend for any part of the province . The problem becomes very quickly that some town s, and particularly the City of Brandon, has started to tax their downtown area with the light of developing a fund for downtown renewal of their own. That becom es another problem .

You identified that there are a considerable number of people in Selkirk as related to the tota l retail gross retail sales . But at the same time, there is a tax base there that sooner or later , I believe, the communities that are involved, if they have some stability and some growth, will have to also become involved in financing part of that downtown , renewal , as well as they would • be involved in renewal of their infrastructure in sewer and water . Mrs. Charles: I appreciate the Minister 's remarks . Certainly , many times in this House and even in private 4142

Thursday, December 15, 1988 conversations with the Ministers , we have discussed infrastructure and the need for infrastructure repairs . (The Acting Chairman , Mr. Ed Mandrake , in the Chair.) However, the Town of Selkirk is probably going to have some development because of the downtown core area falling down , as in many sick towns and cities across the country , it is. If they do not develop their downtown , then likely some private developer will develop outside the town, and the need for infrastructure will continue beyond instead of replacing and upgrading what we have.

So I would suggest that It is sort of a balanced situation where we have to look at the overall picture , and not just the two issues as separate issues but indeed as how one will relate to the other . My final question on this subject to the Minister, is the federal funding still available, the matching grant? Mr. Cummings: I do not have the most up-to-date information as to the status of the Community Futures grant you are referring to with the Town of Selkirk . It · is my understanding that it is but I have not been told any different.

The one thing that I think the Urban Affairs critic raised a few days ago in the Legislature that needs to be considered, in the light of the problems that we are talking about, and that is that the growth on the perimeter , outside of the City of Winnipeg , and within driving distance of the City of Winnipeg, is a problem and a concern . Selkirk is not what would be classified as being right on the perimeter or within anything that could likely be called an add zone .but it is certainly within commuter zone area. Planning in the Selkirk area - Selkirk has its own planning district.

It was the first planning district that was given independence and autonomy to make major decisions and operate their planning district independent of the provincial regulations . I n fact, if they choose to restrict growth in the periphery of their town until more of the downtown area is developed, then I would suggest that they can promote development of the core area of their town somewhat in that matter, because Selkirk is unique inasmuch as it does have a fair bit of open space that does not presently have buildings on it.

Very often in core area renewal, the acquisition and the elimination of the buildings becomes very much of the higher cost . So the community is not without some tools to deal with part of the problem itself. •

(1450) Mrs. Charles: My question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) . Can the Minister of Health explain whether there is a feasibility study being done as to moving the Centre of Psychiatric Nursing to the University of Brandon? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): No. Mrs. Charles: Can the Minister explain why.in a meeting on October 27 with the Deputy Minister that was discussed? Mr. Orchard: I do not believe any feasibility study was discussed at that meeting . Mrs.

Charles: Can the Minister explain , therefore , why the Psychiatric Nurses ' Association , who were present · at that meeting , tend to think that they discussed it? Mr. Orchard: I cannot answer that but I know no feasibility study exists . Mrs. Charles: Are there any feasibility studies on the Psychiatric Nursing Schools Plan? Mr. Orchard: I want to try to help ·my honourable friend understand . The training programs in mental health services have been under review for approximately three to four years .

The issue that my honourable frierid brought up in the House about the closure of tl)e Selkirk School of Psychiatric Nursing was a reduction option : considered in the last four Budgets of Government and declined . I know that makes my honourable friend from Opposition and representing the constituency want to make the allegation and no doubt she -may well be going to those people and saying, yes, you know I cannot get a straight answer out of this Minister and , therefore , I think he is going to cut it back , but that is her right as an MLA to do that.

It may not be providing correct information , but there is no obligation on an MLA in this House to provide correct information to anybody. I have given you the answer that for four Budget cycles, including the one we passed , the closure of the Selkirk School of Psychiatric Nursing was considered , was rejected by myself , was rejected on three other occasions by the NDP. Let me explain to my honourable 1riend what type of discussions are going on . We know we have challenges facing us in the mental health system, okay.

I think even my honourable friend from Selkirk recognizes the challenges in mental health delivery . We do not have an abundance of psychiatrists . When I announced the reorganization of mental health delivery and program in the Province of Manitoba, there were a number of initiatives undertaken there . First of all was the reorganization within the department. Equally as important was the concept of the multidisciplinary team approach to mental health service delivery, an approach endorsed by all professionals involved in the delivery of mental health services.

The registered psychiatric nurse , as a professional, involved in the delivery of mental health services in the Province of Manitoba is deemed by the department, deemed by this Government and deemed by myself as Minister to be an important component of that continuum of personnel required to deliver mental health services . The previous administration gave them credit and I .give them credit where they made good moves , established a Mental Health Graduate Program at the University of Brandon, which provides yet another discipline to fc,cus in on quality mental health care delivery in the Province of Manitoba .

If ,>.,e are intent, as we are as Government , to assure that trained staff are available, appropriately prepared 4143

Thursday, December 15, 1988 to assist in the deli very of quality menta l health serv ices throughout the province , we have to be constantly reviewing our educational programs , their standards , and I make no apology for that. That will continue because we want to assure the appropriately trajned individuals are available to provide the continuum of services we believe appropriate and affordable to the people of Manitoba. • · I want to tell my honourable friend so that I know that she will clip this

section out of Hansard · and send it out to the School of Psychiatric Nurses so that her constituents , in some cases, but more importantly those involved in registered psychiatric nursing training will know that this Minister and this Government value their services and believe they will continue in the future to be an important component of the continuum of service delivery of mental health in the Province of -Manitoba , despite my honourable friend from Selkirk 's wholehearted, possible desire that she develop a political issue in her hometown . That is not the game I am playing, Mr. Acting Chairman .

I am trying to prov ide proper and qualified, trained personnel for the delivery of mental health iri the Province of Man itoba . As Government, we intend to do that with or without the help of the Liberal Party . Mrs. Charles: I was just about to congratulate the Minister on giving a complete answer, which I support , but he always seems to want to get nasty. I will not go to that . I am asking these questions because senior members of his staff have told-the associa tion that the Psychiatric Nursing School is going to be closed in Selkirk.

They have discussed with the Psychiatric Nurses ' Association , according to the association - and I was not there but I have their word to believe and I will believe so unless the Minister calls them outright liars, and I do not think he is intending to do that. But they were told at a meeting on October 27 of this year, a meeting called by the Government , that they, being the department , were asking the association to support a feasib ility study _ on moving the Psychiatric Nursing School out of the community and into the University of Brandon .

If this is untrue, and I hope it is, then I will report that back to the association . Earlier--on ; the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) was saying it was our duty to bring these things forward and why d.id we not do this more. So we are doing that. I will report back-- to the association because they do not feel they are getting the answers from the Minister . I do hope , and I support , that he is going to keep the School of. Psychiatric Nursing open in Selkirk . They have a problem of it always being seen as a budget cut it_!3m.

I have not gone through setting up budget s yet in · departments so I cannot perhaps speak to the fullest on this , but it would seem to me that if the .Psychiatric 'Nurses Association is seen as a necessar y component of mental health care , which I believe it is, then perhaps it should be seen as more of an essential service rather than a budget-cut item .

Maybe the Minisler could discuss this with his staff and come back with a statement to the assoc iation that he feels they --are important and has no plans to cut their school in Selkirk and i n Brandon and that he int ends to keep the ·school of Psychiatr ic Nursing open as a means of delivering mental health Cli!re to our system . Mr. Orchard: Again, let me tell my honourabl e frien d I understand where she is com ing from and why she has to be here and demand those ki nds of guaran tees from Gove~nment .

I mean , it makes good politics . _The cold reality is that Governmen t can guarant ee noth ing beyond the financial year. That i s the reality of Government. Next year we might have a whole billi on dollars less revenue to spend . Nothing is written in stone in Government. We have to pay interest ; th at i about the only thing that is written in stone in Government.

I cannot provide that guarantee to my honoura bl friend that the School of Psychiatric Nursing in Selkir k will exist forever, nor can I provide tl:lat same assur anc that the School for Psychiatric Nursing will exist for ever at Brandon, nor can I assure my honourable frien d t hat the new Mental Health Program at Brandon Unive rsity will exist forever . No one can do that. If she underst ood Government , she would appreciate that .

What I can tell my honourable friend is tha t when that option was considered for this fiscal year by myself. it was declined as it was declined in three consecutive budget rounds by my predecessor as.Minister of Health. *

(1500) I want to tell my honourable friend , and I hop e sh understands from whence we are coming, we int end to have ongoing negot iations ~itti the Associatio n of Registered Psychiatric Nurses , and those negoti ations are going to focus in on excellence of education as applicable to the Registered Psychiatric Nur sing Program , and indeed any future direction that they may see that associat ion taking in terms of enhan ced educational capabilities to provide a wider rang e o f services . We do that with the idea of being to develop excellence in education .

I know my honourable friend will go running back to her constituency but, in explor ing those options to develop a centre of excellence in education, a conc ept of excellence in education, no decisions can be precluded in terms of where the training takes place and what kind of training takes place , because we are very much today on the threshold of change in the delivery of mental health in the Province of Manitob a. I am not going to be committing myself to any kind of an educational program which may well need to be changed .

I want to assure my honourable fri end and , throug h her, the association involved , namely , the Regist ered Psychiatric Nurses ' Associat ion, that there will be full consultation with them and valued consulta tion with them because they can help us make the corre ct decisions in Government. As I have indicated befor e, the mental health strategy is a partnership with the community and Government in delivering better qualit y mental health . I do not intend to shy away from investiga ting any possibility which will allow us to enhance the quality 4144

Thursday, December 15, 1988 of education and the competency of service delivery that may be achieved thereby, because I am not here to perpetuate anything that is not appropriate in terms of training and/or service delivery . I am here to take us into the 21st Century and to lay the plans and the foundations so that when we reach there we have trained people, a focused program and quality mental health delivery .

As I say again, and my honourable friend seems to want to take offence to it, I intend to do this as a Minister of a Government who wants change and we will initiate that change where it is good for the people of Manitoba with or without the help of the Liberal Party. (The Acting Chairman, Mr. Bob Rose, in the Chair .) Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): I have a question for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) . As referenced to the Home Care services, as for the last few days there has been a report that some people's Home Care has been cut or there is intention of cutting services.

We are not clear on this issue because even the people who are providing Home Care services have not received any directive or any order from this administration for any changes in their plans. Still certain individuals have been told they will not have the services, and I will give a specific example to this Minister because he has requested a specific name . I have a constituent , Mrs. Marion Gabriel. She is 55 years old and she lives in Kildonan constituency . She has suffered from back pain for the last 40 years.

She has been to various doctors and also to Mayo Clinic, and was receiving Home Care every two weeks for a couple of hours . She was admitted to hospital at the Rehabilitation Centre and was discharged on November 24. When she went home, Home Care was requested and that was declined . I did discuss the whole situation with Marion Pringle, who is in charge for that area , and she told me that she will not be eligible for Home Care services because she has been referred to a non-profit organization . This person will still be required to pay that non-profit organization. It may cost her $5 to $7 per hour.

So that means this person has to pay about $14 every two weeks for the Home Care services . Can the Minister tell us, if there is no change in the policy , why these individuals are being referred to these various organizations? Mr. Orchard: That has always been the founding principle of Home Care that where non-medical services were available in the community, either through family support or through not-for-profit services, that the clients would be referred to them first . That has been a policy in existence since the inception of Home Care .

That is why, when my honourable friend talks to the staff in Home Care, they will tell him there has been no change in policy, no new policy directives to change the way we deliver the system at all. That is what I have consistently said despite accusations by critics in the New Democratic Party that we have changed the policy. We have not changed the policy.

What I have tried to explain to my honourable friends in the NDP, because they do not seem to want to remember what they did themselves-a program that we supported in 1985-1 will explain it for my honourable friend because I think he genuinely wants to know what the circumstance is. · · We are facing greater challenges in providing services · to seniors, and many seniors who live in their homes in the wintertime need such services as diverse · as snow removal to sanding the sidewalk, etc., etc .

Home Care was never intended to provide those kinds of services , and what has often been identified throughout the Honie · Care Program by officials withil) the program in terms of delivery, as well as the division of Gerontology, is that it is not so much the issue of having to hire someone to make those yard cleaning services or those heavy cleaning services within the house or shovelljng snow off the sidewalk or sanding the sidewalk, it is not so much having to retain people or hire people to do that.

It was often a simple case of not" having the ·service available in the community through an organized l(ehicle that the individuals could feel comfortable in contacting . As a result of that, in 1985, the division of Gerontology within the Department of Health, the directorate , came up with a program called Support Services for Seniors. I have complimented my honourable friends in the NDP for acceding to this departmental recommendation . It is a good recommendation .

We basically provide some basic seed money to community organizations who will offer an array of services, including Home Care, snow shovelling off sidewalks, yard clean-up, heavy housecleaning , and then also volunteer services such as visiting, taking seniors to shop, picking them up in their own vehicles and taking them to shop , a myriad of support programs. Some of these programs offered through the Support Services for Seniors are non-profit and charged at $5 to $7 per ho_ur throughout the Province .

Now in 1985, because it was identified that often there was an absolute lack of these services in the community, the proposal came forward to start, through Support Services for Seniors , the implementation of a program in the community supported by small seed grants, as I have said. That program started in'85, was continued in '86, '87, and again in this fiscal year.

I believe-and I do not want to be held to the numbers that we dedicated-but it seems "lo me that it is in excess of $200,000 or $300 ,000 in additional funding that we have put into that program this year, something that has happened each and every year. What we end up with at the end of the implementation of this is community-based support programs for seniors. When those support programs are available in the community, the housecleaning aspect is referred to them, because I go back to my original statement. Since the inception of the program, it was never intended that Government do housecleaning.

Where the service was available i[! the community or available through someone living in the home or a relative who could support the individual living nearby, that was the first access of service . Where none of those were available, Government did provide . the cleaping service but that was only as a last resort. *

(1510) The Support Services for Seniors Program was de§igned to put in place the community infrastructure 4145

Thursday, December 15, 1988 support so that sen iors could access the myriad of services including some of the home cleaning that we do, and when those services come on str'f3am, and I believe that is the case-I will investigate for my honourable friend - but I believe that is the case in his constituency that a program has newly been funded and is now up and runn ing and can (irovide that kind of service. Therefore , under the lollg-standing existing policy of Home Care, individuals will be referred to it. That is why the staff says nothing has changed , because the policy has not changed.

I have to be critical of my honourable friends in the NOP because they started the program . During the two and a half years it was ongoing, we received complaints about individuals who had their Home Care cut off, if you want to use those words , but it was because a not-for-profit service was available , wMch was the criteria to the program , the difference being I did not come to the House as Opposition critic and try to create the political issue of cutbacks purely for the politics of it, because I understood the policy. I agreed with the policy.

But now , in Opposition, my honourable friends in the NDP are saying our policy was not good , one that they started and reinforced for three consecutive Budget cycles . I have to tell you that is what I find frustrating about this whole thing. We have not changed the policy. We have not changed the entry criterion or the discharge criterion from Home Care. We have increased the funding by $10 million and the NOP had the audacity to stand up_ and say there are cutbacks . Now, I reiterate and I reiterate again, if there are individuals who believe they have not been fairly assessed, I want to know that.

I want to know it because I ask an investigation and, if there has been an incorrect assessment or an inability to arrange the continuum of care as the individuals wished, we will investigate and we will accommodate where we can . We did that in the example that the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) brought to my attention . The individual wanted care in certain hours . We could not provide the care in those certain hours and , when we were able to have a meeting of the minds, the care was provided .

It was not anything to do with budget constraints. ·irwas simply the client and the program col.lid .not get together in terms of the hours that she wanted service in, as the receiver or client, and the department \\'.aS unable to staff it during that time . So we come·:-to an agreement after a short period of negotiatioi:,. Mr. Acting Chairman, I also want to know the individuals ·who are concerned about their service reduced, because we may-and I say this with all qua1ification-have an individual who from time to time is exuberant.in their assessment process.

That is human frailty arid ·it does happen but, as the Minister, I want to know if it is happening so I can investigate, have a supervisor do the investigation . If the assessment is incorrect, service will be reinstated and, if there is a pattern where an individual is regularly making wrong assessments and having - people's service reduced , that individual will be - how do I word this gently? The supervisor will work with them to improve the way they assess and deliver service so that they do it properly and not make imprope r assessments . That is why it is importan t to know.

Now, let me just close by saying I do not think it does anybody any good to say there are people out there who are being cut back but they do not want to give their • names because of fear of retribution. Those people have no fear of retribution from this Minist er or this Government . If they meet the criter ion for servic e delivery , they will receive service . We increased the Budget by $10 million to make sure that would happ en, and this argument of fear of retribution I get distressed at. It seems to me that you are developing phanto m clients for political purposes and I do not want to see that happen .

Any individual who identifies a prob lem, it will be dealt with in an hones t and fair fashion by myself and by the staff. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson , I think that will clarify a lot of questions and I think it will be a good idea to send the information to the individuals who ar providing the Home Care services so they can teli thes individuals what the reasons are, so that they do not have to go through the other route and they do not have to call the politicians for these things .

I think the policy direction must be clear to _the individuals who are receiving the services and who will be receivin g services , but this particular individual I am talking about has a different reason. She has a medical problem , or her husband has a double by-pass twice and expect ed to have another surgery . So I think there is a reasonabl e doubt here that there may be a reason for them to complain.

I think that could be ihvestigated but , more so like Marianne Pringle or other people should know . they should be able to communicate with that individu al so that they do not have to complain and make the cases which may or may not be true . My next question is now regarding Klinic at Broadw ay As the Minister has indicated that this will be a p art of the budget next year or they are going to consid er it, yesterday I rece ived a letter from the Klinic saying that they have failed the fire inspection and that may need some funds to renovate the building .

Is the Mini ster ready now to look at the whole concept of th e community clinic , such as Klinic and their funding , so that they do not have to spend money? Mr. Acting Chairperson, I was saying , does the Minister have any plan to visit the Klinic and make some arrangement so that this clinic, which is playing an important role , could be renovated at the earlie st possible so that they do not have to spend money twice in improving for the fire inspection and doing it next year again? Mr.

Orchard: I tak e my honourable friend's suggesti on on the Home Care and informing the assessors and whatnot and the supervisors of the criterion . That is an ongoing process and that has been done , and that is why I say there ought not to be too many reason s why there is a misassessmerit , but upon occasion I will say it does happen . Let me-just give you one more piece of information so that we have an idea of what we are talking about 4146

C Thursday, December 15, 1988 in terms of service delivery . At any particular time of the year, there are approximately 2,000 individuals per month receiving the Home Care services only, and that is the home cleaning services , etc ., etc ., average about 2,000 a month . It is very much a rotating system of people entering and.being discharged from it because, for instance , in the month of October , there were 843 admissions requiring Home Care and there were 874 discharges in the month of October .

If 20 of those people , for instance , feel they were unfairly discharged from the program, it seems like a lot of people but in reality it is 20 out of almost 900 and I do not know what the percent would be-well, above 2.5 percent. I think that is a reasonable indicator that the program is working pretty well, when your complaints are really fairly low. Okay? So I just want to put that on the record . Now lastly, let me indicate to my honourable friend that I have no difficulty with visiting Klinic and that will happen but, Mr.

Acting Chairman, I am sorry it will not happen at the behest of the director etc ., etc ., of Klinic demanding me to be over there tomorrow . I do not respond to those kinds of demands because my

schedule does not permit it. I had to almost cancel a meeting of individuals , five out of the six of whom drove from all parts of the Province of Manitoba on Tuesday of this week , because I thought we were going to be in this debate and they were not very happy and they had driven miles . Now , surely my honourable friend is not asking me to cancel engagements to go over and do that. •

(1520) Klinic will be ' visited but , Mr. Acting Chairman , I received the letter yesterday indicating the fire code . I cannot tell you the status on that because they have not received the information back from the department. When I get that report, it will allow me to make again judgment in terms of capital placement in the context of the system : You know , the same argument was made by my honourable friend's colleague , the House Leader (Mr. Alcock) , on Municipal Hospitals, where there was a five- or a six -year -old outstanding order.

I appreciate that there are difficulties within the system, but also appreciate that in seven months of Government or seven months and one week that we have been now in Government , I guess, I will openly admit to my honourable friend that I have not been able to build all of the capital projects and commit all the capital projects that are on the books.

What I did do was commit a number of capital projects that had been on the books upwards of eight and nine and ten years and had been put off and put off and put off , so that it is an unsatisfactory delay to those individuals in the health care field , but it is not unique to seven months, one week of Progressive Conservative Government. It has been the difficulty faced by Governments of a number of -political stripes over a number of years . We are not going to instantly commit capital where needed throughout the system .

As I have said on many, many occasions , if I was able to persuade my hopourable colleague , the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), to fund three years out the increased operational costs of $900 million of capital commitment, I want to tell you I would be one of the most popular Ministers of Health in the Province bf Manitoba in its history . This Government would be very, very popular with the construction industry , with the· individual institutions, their boards , and their staff. The only people who might not be terribly happy would be the taxpayers when the bills come in.

You cannot possibly do that in one year. • Furthermore, you cannot possibly do it without a feel and an idea of the direction we· must go into the year 2000, because any capital dollar we commit today has to have utility at year 2000 , year 2010 , year 2020, year 2030. If it does not have utility and is not going to be a productive part of the system 10, 20, and 30 years out , then we are making mistakes : Mistakes in Government cost taxpayers money arid , when we cost taxpayers money through mistakes, we deny them programs 10 years from now br 15 years from now.

That is why I want to have the most prudent advice on some of the capital decisions that are made and are going to be made by myself and by this Government . I make no apology for that kind . of prudence, because I think that is what Manitobans gave a message to Government to do. I am going to be critical of my honourable friends in the NOP. In seven years of Government, they elected not to be concerned about their level of expenditures. They took the Government from an annualized deficit of well under $200 million to a consistent deficit of well over $500 billion per year.

My honourable friend, the .Member for Transcona (Mr. Kozak) , I want him to do one th ing for me, because I know that he will see the challenge faced by Government in the next decade of the Nineties if he goes to the 1981 Budget document-I have used these figures time and time again-and see the obligation that this Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has in years 1990 to 1994 in terms of capital repayment. An Honourable Member: It is called deferred taxation . Mr. Orchard: Right, as of 1981, whafthe circumstance that was in 1981, and then take this year's Budget and find out that after seven years of Mr.

Pawley 's Government what that commitment of repayment of debt is in those five years. You will find it increased by anywhere from 300 percent to 400 percent .

I will tell you , it is frightening when you take a look at that, and I have made the point time and time again that when we left Government in 1981 and turned the reins of Government over to Howard Pawley and a major ity NOP Government, the interest bill on the entire debt of the Province of Manitoba for 110 years of Government , Governments of all political stripe, was $90 million per year, and that is an enormous figure of interest that we pay every year.

After seven years of Howarct Pawley and the NOP, it had grown to $545 million per year. ' That is $455 million of interest that we are paying out of province and denying the Municipal Hospitals, denying Klinic, denying speech therapy, denying on and 4147

Thursday, December 15, 1988 on and on because , if I had just half of that additional interest to spend in the health care field , we would have an incredible array of programs available to the people of Man itoba , but that flexib ility was stripped away from this Government and future Governments in the Prov ince of Manitoba by seven years of Howard Pawley 's Government. I cannot rever~ lhat ; we c-annot detach ourselves from those obligations . Those are the people of Manitoba 's obligations now. · Those are the taxpayers ' obligations .

That is why I am being prudent , as I can be, to try to meet the most critical needs in the health care system in terms of capital budget today, trying to resolve long-standing problems in the cap ital budget, but yet try and put a reasoned focus on where we go in terms of our spending, try not to knee-jerk react and crisis manage the health care budget so that a crisis today is solved by throwing some more money at it. We cannot do that anymore. That is why I am so incredibly pleased to have Dr. Arnold Naintark ang 12 other Manitobans agree to sit on the Health Advisory Network Steering Committee .

Those are prominent Manitobans who have knowledge, experience and dedication to try to make positive changes in an apolitical form . There is a will out there today in my estimation , in my humble opinion , in the health care field that we can no longer fund the squeaky wheel , that we can no longer crisis manage and react day by day to circumstances that are crisis and not managed. The inst itutions recognize that ; the prov iders of service recogn\ze that; the adm inistrators recognize that ; the board membe rs recognize that ; and we recognize it as Government.

The Health Advisory Network , I b elieve , has a group of competent people put there who can try to bring those opinions together to focus on very reasoned and rat ional and productive change and reform to the health care system . But it will be doomed to failure if every single recommendation they make is torn apart in a · partisan fashion by my honourable friends in the House because one of the easiest things to do in Government for an Opposition is to pick ind ividual issues in the health care field and say this is wrong , that is wrong , this is wrong.

No Government has the ability to provide all of the sery.iee that are demanded by all of the people all. of .the time. That has never existed . I will admit I was a harsh critic of the previous administr _l!tion on many areas , but I want to tell my . honourable friends that I stayed away from issues like the individual Home Care reductions . I invest igated them behind the scenes because I knew that those same complaints . would come to me as Minister .

Unless I knew that I could resolve them , I was not going to bring them to the floor of the House and raise expectations that" I would be a miracle worker if ever we wer e Government and I was Minister of Health . I did not go qn a weekly or biweekly or monthly basi s to a_n emergency ward in a hospital and show the numbe r of people who are on cots on the floor . That still happens, because I knew I could not solve that problem overnight . That takes substantial planning and cooperation and focus of resource on the system .

I avoided those kinds of individual crises, bringing those to the floor of the Legislature , even though it woufd have been polit ically popular , because I knew that responsibly I could not resolve those problem s overn ight as Governme nt. 'That is why I find some of the strategy of the Second Opposition Party , the New Democrats ; ·to be a little bit offensive in that rega rd.

That is why I sincerely welcome from my honour able friends in Opposition , both Parties , legitimate deb ate on where w·e are going in health care and the directio ns that we ought to take and some of the suggestion s that they wish to make . *

(1530) I do not have all the answers. That is why I appoin ted a very competent steering committee in the Health Advisory Network . I am hoping they can come up with some answers . Some of their answers and som e o f their solutions may be politically unpopular , but I hope we have the decency in this House to debate them . not as a partisan political suggestion of the Min ister of Health and a Progressive Conservative Governm ent, but of the considered opinion of a gro up of knowledgeable Manitobans desirous of making positiv change to the system. Then we can decide in this Houso whether it is appropriate .

I think that is the only way that we are going to get to make positive chang e. II we want to have the squeaky wheel syndrome and crisi management in health care , we can continue in that mode , but it is a mode deemed to fail and , when it fails , it does not fail for me as Minister of Health personally because , if I have to, I can access medical services in North Dako ta because I am only 25 or 30 miles off the border . It will not fail for me and it will not fail for other Manitobans who have the wherewit hal to access other services .

But who it will fail for are those very most vulner able Manitobans my honourable friends are trying to prot ect and we are trying to protect on this side of the House.

That is why this health care system today , as in no time in the history of this province, I believe , is ready and willing to wor k cooperativ ely to try and chang e the system to mak e it better for all Man itobans , so that we do not develop a two -tier system of health care delivery as has happened in other jurisdi ctions , so that we have a system that is affordable , so that we have a system that can bring in innovation and technolo gy and change in pract ice, so that we have profe ssion als who feel part of the syst em, a partner with Governm ent in delivering health .

If I can do nothing else as Minister of Health , I want to foster that kind of good will and that kind ol cooperative attitude in the health car e syst em . I say this with all humility . I believe we have taken some significant steps in the last six months as Governm ent in achieving that. I believ e that we hav e attemp ted through cooperation and consultation in meeting with various groups to begin that building of a partn ership of reform in health care .

I intend fully to continue that effort in tha t direction and I simply have asked of" any group that has com e in to support reasonable effort by Governme nt, to give reasonable suggestions to Government and to feel part of the change , part of the process of reform . I have received positive response . From time to time , I have 4148

Thursday, December 15, 1988 to give my honou rable friends credit , I have received positive comments from a number of Members of both Opposition Parties in terms of where they think som e potential problems are and how we ought to reac t to them. I appreciate that . It is in that spirit that i hope we can continue to wor k in this House . That does not say that we are not going to disagree violently on some approaches from time to time . I have been known to get my dander up once in a while .

It only happens but rarely and , in this Christmas season , I am just full of the milk of human kindness , but do not provoke me. I say that with a smile on my face but , in reality , reasonable suggestions from reasonable men and women will contribute positively to quality health care delivery. That is all I seek , Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): I wanted to just take the opportunity to say a few words and participate In the discussion with respect to Home Care because I am somewhat concerned about a position that was put forward or a series of questions that were asked by the Leader of the New Democrat ic Party (Mr. Doer) in this House earlier in the Session with respect to alleged cutbacks in the Home Care service. The Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) , I commend , in his answer did very well but , as a Member of the Legislature , I am somewhat concerned , very deeply concerned , about the position and the way it was put across by the Leader of the New Democratic Party because I think he did a great disservice to Home Care workers , to public . servants in my particular constituency . I think he created a great deal of fea( ·on behalf of many elderly people in the Beause jour area and in other parts of the province . Mr. Acting Chairperson , I think he did that very irresponsibly.

I wanted to put my comments in that regard on the record here today in this committee and indeed support · the statements that were made by the Minister of Health . I think all Members of this Hous e remember several months ago when the Leader of the Opposition , or the Leader of the New Democ ratic Party raised a number of instances where he said there had been cutbacks of Home Care service. One was a particular lady in the Beausejour area. As it turned out, if the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr.

Doer) had taken the time to really check out this particular call that had come into their office , what he would have realized was that what was happening in Beausejour was simply the fulfillment of a policy that was in place while his Party was Government and he was a Member of the Treasury Bench , Mr. Act ing Chairperson . In fact, in the Beausejour area , ARC Industries , which is the workshop for mentally -handicapped adults , they . had provided as of last February when t he New Democratic Party was in office a clean ing service at $7 per hour for residents of the comm·unity.

It was a non -profit , community-based cleaning service , fit the criteria of the policy that was in place· and had been in place for many years and , as a consequence , the Home Care office in Beausejour began to reassess individuals receiving Home Care to see if they could use that service for cleaning , which did not put them at risk , and that is what happened in that particular case . The Leader of the New Democ ratic Party (Mr. Doer) chose not to investigate the matter and to create some sort of issue that did not exist.

I am sure Members of the Liberal Party opposite would agree with me when I say it is just that type of misinformat ion, that type of trying to create an issue that does not ·exist , t hat is the reason we are on this side ancl they are there as Official Oppos ition and the New Democrat ic Party has been reduced to third place in Manitoba. I do not think the public will tolerate that kind of inaccuracy and that kind of scare tactic on the part of leaders of Parties or Members of this House .

Why I am again so concerned about this is the · image for a few brief days that was created of widespread cutbacks in the Beausejour area , i ndeed other areas of the province. ARC Industries was not provjding a good service , that our provincial public servants in that particular part of the province were being callous and ruthless and cutting back service. It was unfa ir to all of those people .

I can tell you as the MLA for that cons tituency the lady who was involved had been work ing with my office for a month or so , and it had been explain ed to her the circumstances of the policy in fact , my staff and myself had got her in touch with ARC Industries to get service which she did not wan t. I think the greatest justice of the whole incident that came out was the story, Mr. Acting Chairperson , which appeared in the Free Press in which the claims by the Leader of the New Democratic Party were put forward and were proven totally inaccurate .

I say to the Minister , I appreciate the statement that he made and I want to have it on the record in this committee , as in many committees where statem ents are made by Ministers and Members , that

part icular incident because I think an injustice was done . I would hope that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) would continue to get the word out in the community as to what that policy is with respect to the provision of Home Care . Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson , the Minister is saying that they are considering the high costs of health care , and I think one of the major concerns right now should be, and most Manitobans would agree with that, that the care for the seniors in future five years or ten years to come - and I will give to the Minister a typical example of that today even .

One of the hospitals , one of the medical floor acute care beds, at least 35 percent approximately, are occupied by people who could be in nursing care homes . My question is, what kind of policy is it they are developing, because there in capital expenditure we did not see much in terms of personal care homes beds being created for the next five years ? Can he explain to us on that issue? • .(1540 ) • Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairman , I had been cautioned to be short and conc ise and brief becau se every_body else has questions to answer . 4149

Thursday, December 15, 1988 My honourable friend is not quite correct in indicating that there are no new beds to be part of t)le capital construction program . My honourable friend says that there are a number of acute care beds in hospitals that have handled pat ients and extended care patients in them. That is correct. That has existed for about 10 years . That is not new. It is not an appropriate use , I will admit , of an acu te care hospiral bed but , under the circumstances today , that is the acceptable method that we can provide care , not the optimu ·m but the· acceptable given the circumstances . Mr.

Speaker , that could be resolved with the commitment to construct ion of approximately 1,000 beds, personal care home beds , tomorrow . But do you know what my honourable friend ought to consider is that the case has been made and it has been proven in the past that the mo_ment you take an extended or panelled patient from an acute care bed to a personal care home , the bed is filled again. You have, in fact, doubled your cost. You still have your hospital bed occup ied and you have a brand new persona r ca're home bed occupied .

There are , and I tell my honourable friend this , two schools of thought and one of them says that we ought to caut iously proceed on rapidly expand ing the number of personal care home beds and that is not my advice . That is some of the best professional advice that is coming out of the department , and I admit that they disagree on this point because there are others who say we have to commit a certain numbe r of beds ove r t he next 10 years to achieve a reasonable balance of available service. Now, that will be resolved over the next year to year and a half in terms of the 10-year planning span.

In the meantime , there is a commitment to increased numbers of personal care home beds , and what is happening in rural Manitoba , as an example at Erickson , is the proposit ion for Vita, is the proposition for Manitou. We are replacing a number of acute care beds in hospitals with smaller hospital units and attached · personal care homes and we are adding to needed personal care home beds there , as well as in the City of Winnjpeg . Ms. Maureen Hemphill {Logan): Mr. Act ing Chairpers~n •• -1--have a few questions that I would like to raise -now with the Minister of Highways (Mr.

Albert Driedger) , and I thank him for being here to respond to them . I am going to give a little bit of background and raise ·a number of issues and then let him have a chance to respond. If he does not get all the questions , I will give them to him again , so I am not sitting down and getting up and down every couple of minutes .

A short time ago, there was an announcement in the paper that indicated that I think the acting board chairman , Donald Norquay, of the Taxi Cab Board had canie out and talked about a list of sweeping proposals '. designed" to upgrade the quality and the profitability of Winnipeg 's, as they said , much criticized taxi service . He -goes on to ind icate there are a number of quite far-reaching and widespread changes that he may be recommending . . . - This among other things has caused a lot of concern in the taxi -cab community .

I have had a previous discussion with the Minister and indicated to him what some of those feelings are . I am taking this opportunit y to put them on the record and to give the Minister an opportunity to respond to some of those concerns . I think, ffr.st of all, we need to say and recognize that this is a gr_oup of people who are feeling very oppress ed and who a,re feeling very harassed . In all fairness , this has not just happened in the last six months . They have felt like they are third-class citizens for a long time. for a number of reasons .

One of the reasons is that a lot of the people driving cabs are members of some of ·our newer ethnocultural communities , who feel they have been driven into driving cabs to support their families because they cannot get jobs that deal with their normal education and training requirement s. So they sort of feel like third-class citizens , from that point of view. Then when they become taxi -cab drivers , they feel like they are third-class citizens again because they are harassed by the polic e; they are harassed by th public . As they say, the beefs are frequent and tho bouquets are few.

They have the Taxi Cab Board also ove r their heads, and I guess what they would like 10 see is a little more involvement and an indication that there is an opportunity for a cooperative approach and some participation by them , by the people runnin g anct driving the taxi cabs . I am going to outline a number of the areas ot concern. I think some time ago, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) was on record as saying , quoted in the Free Press at least, that you did not intend to increa se the fleet . Tho fleet right now sta_nds at abou-t-400.

They have put on an extra 65 to take the increased load over the Christmas period . Sinc e t hey believe the numbe r of riders has decreased significantly over the last two years , they suggest that out at the airport where they were getting 4,000 , they are down to 3,000 a day, and that the general ridership is down , som e of them suggest about 50 percent , in a two-yea r period . They are very concerned about additions to the fleet. What they are wondering is the move towards addi ng handicapped services. I th ink the recommendation was 25 handicapped vans be added to the fleet.

Ther e is no opposi tion to improv ing transportat ion opportuniti es for handicapped and disabled people . The suggesti on. however , is that when they are not providing servi ces to disabled people they can provide services to the general population. If they only use their van s half- time, for instance , for disabled people, then it suggests that they were talking about 50 vans , I think - it is the equ ivalent of adding 25 new cars to the fleet.

We are wondering if the Minister can comment on what appears to be a bit of a contr adiction betwe en a statement saying they have no intention of addi ng to the fleet , and the fact that if you add 50 handic apped vans and they are able to give general service , i t i s going to be adding to the fleet but not in a direct way, I guess . I understand that there are hearings coming up. The Minister has been kind enough to provide me with the dates of those hearings , which I will pass on , and mig ht sugges t t hat he might , with his own staff and 4150

Thursday, December 15, 1988 capabilities , find ways to make sure the dates of those hearings get out into the field so that the p eopl e will know when the hear ings are. They are in the afternoon and the evening and that means most people will be able to attend .

But there is a bit of a c oncern that if they come forward and make complaints or complain about the system or put the ir feelings and their pos ition formally on the record , there is some concern about the poss ibility of sort of harassment or reaction . ' (1 550) I am saying th is to the Minister so he will have an opportunity to say what I believe he will say, that is that the hearings are open .

They want to hear from the industry , and there will be no concern about reprisals or harassment from any individuals or group providing service if they compla in about the system, including the Taxi Cab Board , which they may wan t to do. I do not know. One of the points made about the Taxi Cab Board was the question of representation . I raised this with the Minister. They felt that there should be some representation , even if it was only one person from the industry sitting on the board , so that the ir pos ition and their information could be brought to bear when questions are raised .

I would ask the Minister to deal with that, whether there is any poss ibility for representation on the Taxi Cab Board . The one last thing I think I would like to commen t on is whether or not the Minister , in having the hearings and looking at the information-I know there is a report that has been commissioned . There is some concern , by all parties, with some of the recommendations that are in that report , but if he could find some way to verify the statement they are making that the ridership is down , their busine ss is drastically reduced, and that should be one of the points taken into consideration .

Everybody wants to improve the serv ice. Everybody knows there are problems in that system and we have to do things to improve them . My last point is just on their behalf, I guess , to have the Minister indicate they are part of the process, they are not all of the problem, and they are going to be involved in finding some of the solutions .

Some of the information they have about what kind of a living they are able to provide for their families working this way, how long they have to work , how much they have to work , how much they make and other things they are dealing with , will be some of the things that are taken into consideration in the public hearings , and when the Minister is coming forward with any policy changes that may arise from that. Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): First of all, I would like to thank the Member for Logan (Ms . Hemphill) for raising this issue .

We have had some discussion prior to entering into . the debate here in the House , and I feel it is most appropriate that we have discussion on- tha t. Since my tenure as the Minister respons ible for the Taxi Cab Board, I think possibly the chairman of this committee has probably as much knowledge of the .. industry , maybe more so than the Minister does at this stage of the game , having played a role at that at one time .

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-99
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 99.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d226ab14cc95a9c1741f9497042f52389b854695

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