VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JUNE 9, 1977 NO.ll5

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4018 Page 1 - ms The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: MR.. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: The hon. Minister of Tourism. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that my colleagues have approved a programme which enables senior citizens to have free use of provincial parks. The concept of providing free use of parks to senior citizens is as a result of a number of requests in recent months from the executive of the pensioners and senior citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The procedure to be followed requires senior citizens age sixty-five and over to present upon entry to any provincial park their senior citizens' identification card. Upon presenting this card the holder will be offered free entry to any provincial park. Administering the programme in this way ensures the senior citizens, and senior citizens only, benefit from the free use of parks. Mr. Speaker, I wish do point out that this is in keeping with government's policy to improve the lot of our senior citizens all of whom have made a worth-while contribution to the Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte.

MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all of us, I just want to welcome the announcement by the Minister of Tourism that senior citizens are going to be given free assess to all the provincial parks in the Province. It is certainly a good gesture, and I hope that senior citizens throughout Newfoundland participate in this worth-while event, because the provincial parks are quite nice and the senior citizens would find them quite enjoyable.

I would like to point out to the minister somethin~ he should do and that is to make sure that everybody in the Province, all the senior citizens are aware of this new programme so that they can write in and get their identification cards if that is the process 1.1292

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4018 Page 2 - ms Md White. they have to go through. For my own self, Mr. Speaker, I feel that all Newfoundlanders should seek free access to provincial parks and maybe that is down the road yet to come. MR.SBEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to report on the last meeting of the Rural Development Authority which was just held.

At the meeting we had thirty-five loans considered by the board of which twenty-three of these loans were approved for an expe~diture of $229,000 creating forty­ two full-time and twenty-six seasonal jobs. The following breakdown - exists: -and for the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) I have indicated to the member a dozen times that if he wants the list of projects for his riding any given time, the names and the individuals,he can come down to the department, and he can get them. That goes for any member of the present House.

We had four agricultural projects approved for $46,000• We had two tourist based projects for ~38,000; one book publishing project for $11,000.- that one should be able to be identified; two fish processing projects for $26,000; one miscellaneous serving for $15,000; two wood-working for $20,000; two metal manufacturing for $27,000; one miscellaneous manufacturing for $2,000; one mechanical servicing for $10,000; one handicraft for $2,400 'and six sawmills for $28,000. And that 11293 ·.

June 9, 1977, Tape 4019, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: is a total of $229,000. Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet I would like to make reference to the handicraft exhibition which is presently taking place at Queen's Colleqe in the great hall. We have had a tremendous response from the public. In a word, the handicraft exhibition is the total result of the Regional Development Assoications 1 handicraft contests that were held throughout the Province in the last several months, representing the handicraft work of five or six hundred communities in our Province. Almost the entire Province, as a matter of fact.

As a result of that contest we have the selection, which is taking place throughout the Province,of the first, second and third place winners. If I can get the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and the Premier to quieten down a little we will _carry on. Mr. Speaker, we have had these contests judged. We have had the selection of the handicraft work of the people of the Province. The member for Fogo (Capt. Winsor) has indicated that he has been there and seen it. It is an unbelievable demonstration of quality work done throughout the entire Province. It is double what we had a year ago.

We have seen in the last three or four years a continuous growth in the identification by a lot of our people. Not only the elderly people, but more importantly,in many ways, the skills are being simulated by a lot of the young people as well. It is one of the best displays of handicraft, I have been advised, that has been seen anywhere in the Province and maybe in the country. Now we have had a very good turnout from the public and I would like to invite each and every member, if they would, to tak~ - five minutes ~1294

June 9, 1977, Tape 4019, Page 2 -- apb r~R. LUNDRIGAN: sometime throughout the day and drop by Queen's College and see the results of the handicraft from the entire Province. It is only a very short distance from here and I would think it would be sort of a lift for all the people who participated if members of the legislature would reinforce what they pre~ch as their philosophy, that we should encourage this kind of development in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bellevue. t~ R . CAL LAN : Mr. Speaker, it is nice to hear about a number of projects being approved and so on.

The minister in his statement did not indicate how many new jobs this there or not? NR. LUNDRIGAN: and twenty-six t·1R . CALLAN: MR. PECKFORD: not? MR. CALLAN: would mean. seasonal. Does the minister have that Yes, forty-two full-time Seasonal? Forty-two - Forty-two full-time, is it Forty-two full-time. Of course, when we say full-time we are assuming that that is if the projects are viable. MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. CALLAN: That is right. Unfortunately quite often a lot of projects that are started are not viable and they fold up. MR. LUNDRIGAN: That is right. MR.

CALLAN: It is interesting, as I say, but with an expenditure of well over $200,000, unless the jobs are permanent, and unless that money is put to good use, there is a question mark there of whether or not the department is, as it has been used to doing, or has been doing, giving out money that is never spent wisely. 1.1295 ~ ·

June 9, 1977, Tape 4019, Page 3 -- apb MR. CALLAN: and we do not get the returns that we expect to get. And quite often the money is never repaid to the government. Now with regard to the handicrafts, there is no question about it. I have been associated with handicraft work for a long number of years myself through the 4H Clubs of this Provir.ce and the skills that people develop there are passed along from the young to the old. Mr.

Speaker, we are glad to hear about the forty-two permanent jobs_- we hope they are permanent- and the seasonal jobs as well, but the question still remains whether or not these projects are viable and whether or not we will get returns on the hundreds of thousands of dollars that we are putting into it. For my

part I hope that they are viable and I hope that it is another step in the direction of developing the rural areas of this Province. ~1296

June 9, 1977 Tape no . 4020 Page 1 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a further statement. I wish to make a statement in connection with the concern which has been expressed over a potential problem in regards to accommodations during the Canada Summer Games. Members of the House are aware that during a normal season accommodations in St. John's can be a problem. With the Canada Summer Games we can expect a marked increase in the number of visitors to the Province and in particular to St. John's.

There has been concern expressed over the provision and control of private accommodations. Ma~y_pe9ple are willing to open their homes to the public, of course, for a fee or a rate. Here lies the area of concern. I have provided an exemption from the tourist establishment regulations with the understanding that the city has accepted the responsibility for ensuring that an acceptable standard is met. My department will, of course, assist in seeing that this standard is maintained.

By this action I am confident that visitors to the city will~first of all.find adequate accommodation and,second~will not be charged unfair rates for the type of accommodation that they have acquired. I would like to point out, Mr. Speaker, that, as I say, this is a potential problem, but hopefully by taking this action as indicated, we have found a solution before the situation has been allowed to develop. MR. SIMMONS: Would the minister elaborate for a moment? I did not quite get what exemption it was that had been decided on.- What was the exemption? MR.

HICKEY: We have exempted the tourist establishment regulations. We have exempted the private homes that people may open up and offer to take people in; in other words, to rent a room, to provide meals and wh~t have you. If we were to strictly apply the tourist establishment regulations, of course, many of them would not necessarily meet the standards that are required. But we have exempted them from the regulations as a one-shot deal because 11297

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4020 Page 2 - ms Mr. Hickev. of the potential problem that might arise. But we have done so with the assurance that the city will see to it that some policing is done initially before approval is given to anyone to have their names listed to provide this kind of accommodations. And my own inspection staff will assist the city officials in seeing that:the standard is maintained. - PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The hon.member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR.. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, I have with me here the report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

This is for the period ending Februarv 5. To say it another way; it relates to our findings in respect of the Auditor General's Report for the year ended March 31, 1975. By way of explanation to the House~the Committee completed its deliberations on that report some time ago, actually on the fift~ day of February, and we have had a couple of in camera meetings since then for the purpose of considering our report. The report looks verv thick and impressive.

Let me put all members at rest by saying it is a two page report containing five recommendations from the Committee, and there is an appendix which contains the transcripts of the Committee's proceedings from November of last year until February 5 of this year. It is my pleasure to present this, the first such report, I believe, Mr. Speaker, since Confederation to be presented to the House of Assembly, and I do so with a degree of pride on my own behalf and on behalf of the other six members of the Committee.

And in so doing I would just like to say that the Committee has been functioning extremely well and the fact that we have been able to reach unanimity on the recommendations, I believe, is testimony to my statement that the Committee has been working quite well, and the atmosphere has been quite non-partisan,generally spaaking. 11298

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4020 Page 3 - ms Mr. Simmons. We would like to acknowledge in particular our thanks to the Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Penny,and to you, Mr. Speaker, for your kind co-operation and to the Hansard staff for their co-operation in getting the reports to us fairly expeditously. There are copies, of course, for all members of the House. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. 11299

June 9, 1977 Tape 4021 (Morning) PK- 1 MR. ROUSE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act." MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills; a bill, "An Aet To Amend The Registration of Deeds Act", a bill, "An Act To Amend The Companies Act." HR. SPEAKER: ~. R. SIMMONS: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d~Espoir. ~1r.

Speaker, I have a question for the Premier who was absent on other business on Monday when we discussed the matter of the need for a public enquiry into the spending practices of the Department of Public Works. I understand from the Minister of Finance that the Premier was apprised of the situation, indeed consulted on it. I wonder now would the Premier indicate whether the terms of reference for the announced public enquiry have been drafted or if they are in process at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, yes,we have been in consultation, obviously when I was away and since I came back, and the Department of Justice are working on the terms of reference now, and equally the commissioner. And hopefully it will be done before the House adjourns within the next couple of days, not the House adjourns but the terms of reference. MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker, to the Premier. A supplementary. The Premier has indicated I believe that the terms of reference will be public within a couple of days,I understood him to say. Would he indicate when the commissioner may be named?

Has he any idea or are there names being considered at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I would think, Mr. Speaker, at the same time as the terms of reference. And I can refer it to t~e Minister of 11300

June 9, 1977 Tape 4021 (Morning) PK - 2 Pr~£mier Moores: Justice who is more closely involved in the specific detail of it than myself. HR. SIMMONS: A supplementary to the Premier. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: I wonder would the Premier indicate whether the necessafY, enabling decisions have been taken. I understand that perhaps an Order-in-Council would be needed in this instance. Has the necessary Order-in-Council been issued at this point in time1 Or of course the Minister of Justice. HR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Well obviously, Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if the hon. gentleman is aware of the procedure that has to be followed. The Order-in-Council is passed when the commissioner has been appointed , ' I would prefer to say nothing further about a commissioner now because you always get into the difficulty if you ask a person, and that person is considering it, and he says, no, and then you go to another person, that person knows he is second choice. that you will be here until Christmas before you finally pass it.

So all I can say is that the officials in my department are working very assiduously at a review of the issues so that the necessary broad terms of reference can be prepared, and I will do my utmost on behalf of government to find a suitable commissioner at the earliest opportunity. MR. SIMMONS : A sup?lementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, can we assume from what the minister has indicated in his last remarks that a person has been approached with a view to taking on the job as commissioner of the enquiry? MR. HICKMAN: It is the very thing I said I do not want to comment on. MR.

WHITE: Well,you should know if you have asked anybody. MR. SIMMONS: No. Just to clarify, I am not particularly asking for any degree of comment~ but I am just wanting to :11301.

June 9, 1977 Tape 4021 (~orning) PK - 3 Mr. S i.mmons : know at what stage the propo~ed enquiry is? Whether government is to the stage where it has actually approached a person? I mean, the answer is yes or no. Has the government yet approached any person to be commissioner of this enquiry? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, if some one had been approached and said no, then we contacted the second person who knew that some person had been approached then he would know even by that that he was the second choice and that is why he has not been approached. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaBoile followed by the hon. member for Eagle River. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know, I will have to give a little introduction to my question that I have to put to the bon. the Premier, Sir. When the Bell Island mine closed, Mr. Speaker, SOME RON. MEMBERS: On, oh! MR. NEARY: When the Bell Island mine closed, Mr. Speaker, bon. gentlemen - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman is having difficulty making himself heard. MR. NEARY: I am trying to put a very serious question to the hon. the Premier if I can just have a little silence, Sir.

When the Bell Island mine closed the government took over 11302

June 9, 1977 Tape No. 4022 NM- 1 'HR. NEARY: all the assets of DOSCO and dispose of them for Sl, or took it over for $1 rather and disposed of the assets later. . Now, Buchans Mine is going to close about a year and a half from now, the Labrador Linerboard logging at Goose Bay has closed, there ar~ rumours that the mine at St. Lawrence is going to close and there will become available tremendous expertise in underground mining, men and equipment will become available.

What I want to ask the Premier is this, that if the government ~Y'ould give serious consideration to opening uo negotiations with the various companies involved-they already own Labrador Linerboard so they can freeze the equipment there.- ooen up negotiations with a view to say when they provide the data that Ottawa needs to get the Lm-Ter Churchill Hydro Development underway, the tunnel under the Straits of Bell Isle and the transmission line, will the Premier open up serious negotiations with a view to getting this expertise~men and equipment that can become available immediately, to start the construction of the tunnel underneath the Straits of Bell Isle, the transmission line and the development of the Lower Churchill.

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PPEMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, regarding a start on a tunnel for the hydro development, obviously when the hydro develo~ment goes ahead that is going to be one of the requirements needed. That of course would be part and parcel to the development of the site itself but also what the hon. member suggests certainly has a great deal of room for thought. I take exception to just some of his introductory remarks about the closing of the Buchans Mine and the closing of St. Lawrence, I would certainly hope that that does not transpire but there have been miners around 11303

June 9, 1977 Tape No. 4022 N11 - 2 PREMIER MOORES: the Province at mines that have phased out that are probably doing other types of work now and not necessarily doing the same tyPe of work that they have al~ays done;and regarding the equipment and the neople available for that sort of work, maybe ~>~e could look at a make-work project because a lot of the make-work projects the federal government are doing now are not necessarily ones that will be of any lasting benefit to the Province nor to resource development itself,and maybe if we could take some of the make-work monies that are available to the Province, plus some of our own, this sort of a~proach could very easily be a very interesting and worthwhile type of usage for that money.

MR. NEARY: MR.. SPEAKER: r-rn.. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supnlementary. The hon. Premier of course is his usual one step ahead of me because that vra.s to be my next question. Hith all this expertise,men and equipment, some of it available now at Labrador Linerboard, some to become available,and we have miners in Green Bay and probably in Buchans and a few left around Bell Island, we have the expertise, so in the package, in the updating of the data that Mr.

Jamieson asked for when he spoke to the Equipment Operators Convention here recently, when he asked for the upgrading of the data, could the Premier include that in a part of the undating because this would be an excellent make work project that could do a lot of good for the Province and for the nation as a l-Thole? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER ~CORES: As the hon. member I think probably realizes, a lot of the equipment that he refers to was in fact financed by Dree money itself. MR. NEARY: That is right.

PREMIER MOORES: And it would be,I would think, any of the equipment that l-Tas suitable, if this sort of a project ws contemplated and if 1.1304 '>''

June 9, 1977 Tape No. 4022 NM- 3 PF..E"f!ER !'i:OORES: it showed that it had any viability for that sort of equipment which in the main is not apparently suitable for the woods operation that it was originally bought for, there is some serious' doubt about that. The whole type of thing v10uld have to be taken into consideration and if such a project ever did go ahead obviously this would be the logical place to look for equipment to do it. ~'ffi.. NEARY : ""fR. SPEAKER: ¥.P_. NEARY: A supplementary question, trr. Speaker. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the Premier's answer and the serious nature of this whole matter to provide alternative employment and to create a make work project, instead of the Government of Canada piddling away its funds on foolish nonsense, vmuld the Premier tell the House if he would agree to put together a task force or a committee of some kind to look at this matter because Mr. Ja~ieson has asked for undating? I am sure the government is going to take the broad hint given by Mr. Jamieson and sunply Ottawa with the updating that it needs on the data to get this project underway as quickly as possible. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER ~mORES: I will certainly suggest to }fines and Energy and through them to Hydro that this be looked at as a possibility and also to Intergovernmental Affairs 11305

June 9,1977 Tape 4023 - Morning AR-1 PREMIER ?-fOORES: to take it up with their federal counterparts and see if something can be done. rrn.. NEARY: One final supplementary, Hr. S-peaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The h.on.member. HR. NEARY: ~-1:r. Speaker, I want to draw this to the hon. Premier's attention. This is really what put it in my mind yesterday, a letter in the Telegram , "The Waste at Gull Island." This gentleman apparently visited Gull Island and he wrote a letter to the editor of the Evening Telegram.

He said "This equipment " he was talking about equipment down ther~, 11 This equipment is going to be auctioned off and sold for about one quarter of the original price" He said, "~fuat fool bought it? ~fuat the hell goes on when somebody buys stuff, pays millions of dollars for things that they do not intend to use? There was never any confirmation to go ahead lv:ith the C';ull Island Project'.' The gentleman is referring to tl·Yenty-tvro vans he claims lvere auctioned off recently to a Nova Scotia firm.

I want to find out if there is any validity to this and if so would the Premier put a stop to this sort of thing until we decide where we are going on the Gull Island project and the tunnel? PRE~HER ~~OORES: I read the same letter, nr. Speaker, and I thouRht he was talking about Linerboard equipment at one stage but apparently it was Gull Island equipment. ~:ffi. NEARY : Yes,he was talking about both. PRE}UER MOORES : He have already instigated a query as to ~"hY these vans lvere sold off. I understand there were trailers sold off as well. HR. NEARY: That is right.

PRE't-tiER }f00RES : But I think they remained in Newfoundland,if I got my information correctly. And we should maybe have an investigation into this sort of thing and see why and how. HR. SPEAKER: Hon.member for Eagle River. HR. STRACHAN: A question for the Premier. I asked this - ~ .. 11306

June 9,1977 Tape 4023 - Morning AH-2 MR. STEACHAN: question a number of times previously and it concerns a serious situation in Happy Valley-Goose Bay with the busines~en in there. Could the Premier assure us that if these companies are faced with bankruptcy~as they are now, and if their backs are to the "~;vall and they are going to have to close down totally, could the Premier assure us that the administration will stand behind them and give them some assistance so that they can manage to keep functioning and that three quarters of the businesses in Happy Valley-Goose Bay will not close down totally? HR.

SPEAKER: The hon.Premier. PRE~HER MOORES: A very difficult one, Hr. Speaker, when one deals with something that happened at the CN and the insurance claims and all that are outstanding~ it is certainly one of major concern.But to make a commitment. as to how far any government agency could go to provide immediate assistance~ I am not sure.

I think probably the way we could be of assistance is know what sort of insurance we are talking about and maybe throught the banks request .their assistance and co-operation as well as ours, and see if there is not some formula that can be come up with so that these people can remain not just solvent but in the same position they would have been if the boat had not sank. MR. STRACHMT: MR. SPEAKER: MR.. STRACF..AN : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary.

Could the Premier indicate whether the administration would be prepared to consider government guaranteeing, for instance, a bank loan or something in that form that the government guarantees so that the money could be available to them to continue on? PREMIER MOORES: Actually, Hr. Speaker, I think that once again when you start talking about governments' responsibilities, federal­ provincial,the time it takes to work out who is going to do what - it is too late to do what is necessary like in a case like this. :11307

June 9,1977 Tape 4023 - Horning AH-3 PRE..~IER MOORES : Certainly we would be prepared - after having consulted with the CN, to make sure there is no prejudice to the insurance claim or anything of this sort- we would be very prepared to intervene~if you like,with the banks and ask them for their co-operation. There should be no difficulty if the insurance is coming to these people for the goods that were lost. I would think that in itself it should be a form of collateral for the banks but it is certainly that we will follow through for the hon.member. MR. SPEAKER: Hon.member for Lewisporte. MR. HHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a private question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I wonder if the minister could tell us at what stage his capitol works project for municipal council- what stage it is at the moment? MR.. SPEAKER: 1\1R. DINN: Hon.minister. Mr. Speaker, we are trying to get the programme together now. It is compiled with respect to most items. Some of the items have been approved, but not all of them. Tve have not finished the whole programme for the year so all we can say is it is on its way. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. HHITE: Mr.

Speaker, a couple of weeks ago the minister said in the House in ans~-rer to a question from me that he would have this programme ready and be able to table it in the House before the House closes for the Summer. I wonder if he still hopes to go ahead with that proposed schedule? MR. SPEAKER: The hnno minister. HR. DINN: Hr. Speaker, anyone can check the record and at no time did I ever say that I would table anything in the House,but that if indeed the programme was ready for when the House was here and people wanted some information I would certainlv be available to give it to them if it ~vas available.

But I never, never did say that I would table the programme. 1.1308

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4024 Page 1 - ms MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Bellevue followed by the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Could the minister indicate when he will be in a position to inform councils whether they are successful or unsuccessful in their applications for water and sewer~ MR. SPEAKER: The hort. minister. MR. DINN: As I just answered, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member. for Lewisporte, when it is completed. It is not finished yet.

When the final thing is done, I will be informing co~cils almost immediately when it is prepared. It is not quite ready yet-. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. CALLAN: Can the minister give some time frame? Will it be a week, two weeks or two days~ And will the MHA's also be informed at the same time or, you know, will the MBA's be kept in the dark and find out by wav of the grapevine or something that a water and sewer project may be approved for some area of his district? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I do not know the full import of the question, but most of the MBA's _that are in touch with me will be informed when the projects are ready to go. So about two weeks,! would say. You know, that is at the outset right now. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port followed by the hon. gentleman for LaPoile. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the question is for the Minister of Tourism and it concerns a herd of caribou which was placed on the Port au Port Peninsula some years ago.

I believe there were about 100 caribou in that herd and now over the past year or so the herd is gone down to about thirty caribou because of, as the wildlife officials say ,poaching and lynx, - ·although the lynx is not a natural enemy. My question is: What is the minister -· or 11309

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4024 Page 2 - ms Mr. Hodder. his department doing to halt the destruction of this caribou herd2 MR.. STRACHAN: Get rid of the member for Naskaupi. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, there is only a limited amount of effort that my department can put into preserving is transplanted from one area to.;:. another.

When the herd was transplanted to that area the usual public relations effort and the usual explanations to the people, through the media and through other means, was made with regards to pointing out that the herd could only prosper and increase and provide a reasonable hunting experience in later years if the public totally co-operated. It is quite evident now that they have not.

It is difficult to say what action we can take at this point in time except to restate again, which we are doing, and which we will be doing certainly before the hunting season opens that unless the public makes a final effort to co-operate and realize that those animals are there to prosper and increase, and if this is not .:done then they are really cutting of their nose to spite their own face and there is not very much more than we can do. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. HODDER: Does the minister have any intentions of putting power wildlife officials in that area? At the present time there are very few.

There are wildlife officials in the general area but in the immeidate area there is nobody to look after that herd and very few wildlife officials,to my knowledge,go into that particular area of the peninsula. MR. • SPEAKER : The hen. minister. MR. HICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker, we have no plans to put additional people there ·because for the simple reason we do not have additional people to put there. I must point out again that this 11310

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4024 Page 3 - ms Mr. Hickey. kind of project can only succeed where the general public wishes it to succeed. Now if we have got to hire people to go out and knock people over the head, you know, to say that we are transplanting animals in here for your good, for your own good and for your use, and if we have got to sort of tie you on to keep you from shooting them,well, you know, this is a bit ludicrous to me. It does not make much sense. If the people of that area want this herd to prosper and increase then they will allow them to do so. If not, then that is about it.

The matter of snowmobiles and ski-doos have been raised. We have seen some instances where those vehicles have been used - or misused, I suppose I should say, during Winter, harassing and hunting animals. Again the question arises, Should we ban them for all the people because of the few guilty ones? My position on that is, no, we should not do that. Wherever we find or whenever we 11311

June 9, 1977 Tape 4025 (Morning) PK - 1 Mr. Hickey: catch somebody, then we take the usual action. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister indicate whether or not that his department is confident and sure that the reason that herd has been depleted from one hundred to around thirty is through poaching, and not that the environment in the area would have ever been able to handle that herd that that habitat was right for caribou in the first instance? Is it through poaching or is it possible there are other factors?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, my Wildlife Division got a pretty good track record. MR. FLIGHT: No they have not. MR. HICKEY: If the han. gentleman asked me a question and now he is going to have to listen to the answer. He may not agree with my answer but I want to tell him that my Wildlife Division has a very good track record when it comes to transplanting animals from one area to another.

And what I mean by that is that we do not needlessly go to the expense and all the problems related to, and in a few days I will be announcing another area where caribou will be moved into for the first time, at least for as long as anyone can recall. We do not move animals, Mr. Speaker, from one area to another without a thorough investigation with regards to the environment or the fauna that those animals feed on. And so therefore if those animals are moved in from one area to another, those investigations are done prior to that.

We are satisfied that, you know, in no way is it caused by any lack of food in the area, or the lack of proper kinds or types of environment. We do not believe that that is it at all. And our investigation certainly does not lead us to believe it. It is a matter of poaching. I suppose maybe there are some animals that probably die off in the usual way. There is usually a casualty list, but it is not very large, and certainly if given a - ~· chance those animals will usually prosper and grow. 11312

June 9, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: MR. STRACHAN: Tape 4025 (!1orning) PK - 2 The han. member for Eagle River, a supplementary. On the general topic of caribou and poaching and the state of the herds and so on. Could the minister indicate to us the state of the Mealy Mountains herd and the situation with that, the numbers and what he expects the situation is with that herd in the future? And possibly the Red Wine River Mountain herd too around that area. I am not referring to the activities the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) but I am referring to other activities. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR.

HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, obviously I am sure my han. friend appreciates the fact that I do not have an updated current situation in terms of numbers. My last discussions with my officials with regards to the Mealy Mountains herd in relation to hunting practices in Labrador 9 because we have discussed this many times,is that it is not in a healthy position, certainly not in a healthy position to the degree where we can allow the kind of hunting that we would want or that we wish to allow. I have no indication that there is any poaching to a degree that is going to destroy or wipe out the herds.

However we have been concerned and we have expressed concern during the past year that too many animals were taken. Certainly we want that to stop, and we are doing whatever we can to stop it. ~fuen my friend raised the point a moment ago about what we intend to do, I neglected to point out that in addition to our regular wildlife staff in any given area we have what we call a helicopter patrol which usually does a reasonably good job in keeping people away from those animals. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followd by the hon. member for St. George's. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I should really put this question to the Minister of Justice, but the minister obviously has made up his mind,so if I can get the attention of the Premier for a minute? As I said, Mr. Speaker, just so the hon. Minister of Justice can hear the question I am going to ask the Premier, the minister has already made up his mind in connection with the briefing session that 11313

June 9,1977 Tape 4025 (Morning) PK - 3 MR. NEARY: is being requested by the City Council in connection with the Unified Family Court that the minister wants to put over here on the O'Dea property that is owned by Memorial University. Is it the policy of the government to ignore briefings of City Council or would the Premier indicate if he will is.sue instructions to his Minister of Justice who has made a statement publicly that he would not appear before these hearings, would the Premier reconsider this and have somebody in the Justice Department appear before the briefing the same as every other group and every other individual in the city has to do? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. 11314

June 9, 1977, Tape 4026, Page 1 -- apb PRErHER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, we certainly do listen to grievances from municipal bodies, but as to the detail of what the hon. member asked, I would refer it to the Minister of Justice and let him explain as to why not. MR.

NEARY: Can the Minister of Justice tell us then, Sir, if he intends to stand by his decision that he made public, his statement that he made?, 'Justice Minister Alex Hickman says he certainly will not turn up if a briefing session is held, City Manager Alex Henley reported to City Council, and the department seems unwilling to send any representative.' Would the minister reconsider this and either attend the briefing himself or have somebody from his department attend the briefing in connection with this family court situation?

The government seem to be on a collision course with the City Council over this matter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, let me assure this hon. House that to my knowledge this government is not on a collision course with the St. John's City Council. Nothin could be further from the truth or nothing could be further removed from the facts.

The simple fact is - or shall I put it the other way? - the facts are this Province has taken the lead,together with two other Provinces, in the establishment,on an experimental basis in co-operation with the Government of Canada through their minister the Attorney General of Canada, the han. Ronald Basford, P.C., in the setting up of a unified family court. When Mr. Basford was in St. John's a month and a half ago, or thereabouts, there was a joint announcement made by both of us that we hoped to have the unified family court ongoing to serve,on an experimental 11315 -..

June 9, 1977, Tape 4026, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: basis,Metropolitan St. John's by the end of September of this year. I think that that is a target date that we are going to strive very manfully and very assiduously to meet. Obviously the first thing we have to do is to find suitable accommodations, and suitable accommodation, in myopfriion_, for a unified family court on an experimental basis, is not the traditional courthouse building. I am sure this House, and I am sure the citizens of St.

John's, and particularly those who have an interest in law and order and in family life would be as excited as we were when we found that a house situated on King's Bridge Road, St. John's, that has been used by Memorial University Extension Department, is available. MR. NEARY: Waterford Bridge Road? M R • H I C KM A N : No, it is King's Bridge Road, the - I do not know whose property it was - it is the building that is presently owned by Memorial University of Newfoundland and used in the right of Her Majesty the Queen so I suppose we own it. The Crown owns it,at least.

It was occupied by the Extension Department and the Extension Department have moved out. There may be some misapprehension on the part of the public as to what a family court is all about. It is a non-adversary type of institution. It should be in an atmosphere that is close to residential. The property will be adequately protected. You will not have crowds moving in and out. Certainly it is a very desirable thing, but time is of the essence if it is going to go in St. John's or if we take a look at the City of Corner Brook or Central Newfoundland or Southern Newfoundland.

The officials, I understand, in my department wrote the City Council as a matter of 1.1316

June 9, 1977, Tape 4026, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: courtesy, which this government has done - I emphasize it is a matter of courtesy because the Crown is not subject, nor should it ever be, to city or municipalordinances- and said what we would like to do. It has been made abundantly clear - again, this is second-hand advice to me, but I am sure it is correct - it has been made abundantly clear to the City of St.

John's and/or their officials that whatever information is required with respect to the use of the building and the programme that we envisage to go in there has either been made available now or will be made available. To the last part of the question~ ~ill! as Minister of the Crown go down as part of the briefing session?- the answer is an emphatic, No. N-o. And 11317

June 9, 1977 Tape No. 4027 NM- 1 "'!P .• HICK.HA..~: any more than any other municipality, I look upon all municipalities in the Province of Newfoundland as being of eaual status. 1-1'P. DOODY: ~. HICKMAN: Except Grand Bank. Well,Grand Bank has a lot of affection for me but even then they have been in municipal business so long and under the leadership of the Dean of Municipal Government in Newfoundland, they would not even extend that kind of invitation because he knows the practice and procedure.

Insofar as officials are concerned,and there is really one official who has played a lead role in this, I am sure that she is available any time at all that the City Council needs her for any purpose in order to articulate very clearly the use this building is put to. My concern is that we seem to be running into a delay and I am apprehensive of this delay when I see what hapnened to the John Howard Society. MR. SPF..AKER: ~1R. STRACWu~: A point of order has been raised. A pont of order, Mr. Speaker. The minister is talking about delays and running into delays in the questions and so on.

All he is doing is ranting on and on about things that should be discussed elsewhere and not in Question Period or explained elsewhere and I hope we can try to keep the answers reasonably short, the same length as the questions. AN HON. MEMBER: ~~. HICIOA'P...N: The Liberal abuse. Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. The hen. the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) asked me a very broad, far.reaching question which is very tonical,I would,hope throughout Newfoundland today) ~a~ely our proposal to establish a unified family court on an experimental basis in the Province~ I am sure that four Honour would have ruled me out of order if I had uttered but one word, one comma, one syllable that was not totally relevant to the question asked by the han. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). 1.1.318

June 9, 1977 Tape No. 4027 MR. HICIO-f.ft_N: If in ~y anxiety to make information known to this House, and to the uublic, I deeply apologize to the hon. member for Ea~le River n~r. Strachan). XR. FLIGH'T: We do not get to ask a question now. MR. SPEAKER: Before calling Orders of the day, there can be little doubt that the Question Period is best served by short questions, with very brief

preambles, and answers accordingly. Actually there was a ruling in the House of Commons, I think it makes a great deal of sense, and that is that a

preamble to a question should rarely exceed one sentence and also that if they are supplementaries, ~Y"hen supplementaries are allowed there should be no

preamble, because they are supposed to follow out of the answer. I am inclined to think that that is something we should give serious consideration to. ORDERS OF THE DAY: NM- 2 '1R. FLIGHT: ~. SPEA....l{ER: MR. RICK~.AN: The answers ~-Tere the problem, not the ouestions. They are both sometimes. They are closely related. Motion 6. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Education to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Education (Teachers' Pensions) Act (No.2)," (No. 95), carried. On motion, Bill No. 95, read a first time, ordered read a second time uresently by leave. ~m.. HI CI01AN: Motion 7.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Health to introduce a bill, "An Act For The Protection Of The Health Of Persons Exposed To Radiation And For The Safe1:y Of Persons In Connection Hith The Operation And Use Of The Electrical And ~1echanical Components Of Radiation Producing Eouipment And Associated Apoaratus," (No. 9o). On motion, Bill No. 96, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. :11319

June 9, 1977 NM - 3 MR. HICKMAN: ~·fotion 8. Motion, the hon. Min~ster of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service (Pensions) Act," (No. 97), carried. On motion, Bill No. 97, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave._ }-!R. RICKMJ...N: ~otion 9. Motion, the hon. Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Restructure The Law Society Of Newfoundland," (No. 81), carried. On motion, Bill No. 81, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. :11320

June 9, 1977 Tape No. 4028 NM- 1 MR. HICKM"...AN: Motion 10. Motion, the bon. ~!inister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Control The Rates Of Newfoundland And Labrador Hydro And To Declare A Provincial Power Policy," (No. 98), carried. On motion, Bill No. 98, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.. HICKMAN : Motion 11. Motion, the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Elections To The Council Of The City Of St. John's," (Bill No. 99), carried.

On motion, Bill No. 99, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. HR. HICKHAN: Motion 12. Motion, the bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Certain Leasehold Interests Within The City Of St. John's," (Bill No. 100), carried. On motion, Bill No. 100, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. HICKMAN: Motion 13. Motion, the bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act To Establish The St. John's Urban Region," (Bill No. 101), carried.

On motion, Bill No. 101, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. ~1R. HICKMAN: Motion 14. Motion, the bon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture to introduce a bill, "An Act To .Amend The Meat Inspection Act," (Bill No. 106), carried. Ott motion, Bill No. 106, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. ~1321.

June 9, 1977 Tape No. 4028 NM- 2 MR. HICKMP..N: Motion 15. Hotion, the bon. Minister of Health to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Dispensing Opticians," (No. 10 7) , carried. On motion, Bill No. 107, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: Motion 16. Motion, the hen. Minister of Health . to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Newfoundland Optometric Association And Governing The Practice Of Optometry In The Province," (No. 28), carried. On motion, Bill No. 28, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICK!-1'.AN: Motion 17. ~otion, the hen.

Minister of Health to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Health Act," (No. 108), carried. On motion, Bill No. 108, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. HICKMA..ll.l: Motion 18. Motion, the hen. Minister of Health to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Registration (Vital Statistics) Act," (No. 109), carried. On motion, Bill No. 109, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. RICKMAN: Motion 19. Motion, the hon. Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Increase Of Pensions Act," (No. 102), carried.

On motion, Bill No. 102, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. 11322

June 9, 1977 Tape 4029 EC - 1 MR. HICKMAN: Motion 20. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Made Between The Government And Tne Government Of Canada Respecting Reciprocal Taxation Of These Governments And Their Agencies," (Bill No. 91), carried. On Motion, Bill No. 91, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. HICKl'!.fu'l: Motion 21. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To Establish A Hunicipal Grant System," (Bill No. 105), carried.

On motion, Bill No. 105, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. }fR. HICIQ-f.A'l: Motion 22. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Social Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Respecting Social Assistance," (Bill No. 110), carried. On motion, Bill No. 110, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR.. HI CKHAN : ~·1otion 23. Hotion, the hon. the ~1inister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Motor Carrier Act," (Bill No. 104), carried.

On motion, Bill No. 104, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. HICKlrAN: Motion 24. Motion, the hon. the }linister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Automobile Insurance Act, 11 (Bill No. 87), carried. On motion, Bill No. 87, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. 11323

June 9, 1977 Tape 4029 EC - 2 HR. HICKHAN: Motion 25. ~ration, the han. the }finister of Transportation and Communications to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," (Bill No. 111), carried. On motion, Bill No. 111, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. HICKHAN: Order 11. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To A."nend The City Of St. John's Act," (Bill No. 47). HR. SPEA..TZER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DINN: Yes, Hr. Speaker, these are some amendments that have been requested by the city of St.

John's and it seems very reasonable that they should be implemented. I have condensed the thing. There are nine clauses to be changed and I have condensed it in my language so that I could understand it. Just going through the different clauses to explain to the committee what these things will do. Clause (1) - This clause will extend the powers of the city to deal with emergency situations brought about by the acute shortage of water such as the one which occurred last summer. For- that purpose this will enable the city to restrict or prohibit the use of water in the city.

The other emergency powers contained in the amendment are merely repetition of those formerly contained in the act. So Clause (1) is just to give City Council the power to declare an emergency in case of water shortage. Clause (2) - This amendment will change the existing legislation to remove the restriction requiring that three members of St. John's Parks and Recreation Commission shall be members of Council. In other words, they can appoint their members now and councillors need not sit on that commission.

Clause (3) - will increase the maximum fine to owners of dogs running at large from not more than $5 to not more than $100 and is consistent :11324

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4030 Page 1 - ms MR. DINN: with the council•s policy of endeavourin2 to provide more effective control over roamin~ dogs. Clause (4), this amendment will provide that payment of the business tax by the operator of a business will not prevent the council from taking action against him for any other violation of the City Act, or of regulations made bv the council under the act. This is not a new paver but merely to clarify their existing power.

Clause (5) is designed to elaborate on the statutory procedures with respect to the timing of interest charges levied in respect of taxes and assessments imposed by the city. Again this is a clarification of the act of their existin2 power. Clause (6) provides for the appointment of a city manager. It outlines in general terms his duties and responsibilities. Clause (7) provide that civil servants employed by the city after July 1, 1973 will not be entitled to be paid by the city for years of pensionable service previously earned.

So that somebody working in the provincial government moving down to City Hall would not be able to carry their pension down, but their pension up here is still good. Clause (8) extends the requirement that payment for services in subdivisions which are paid by the landowner would include now such utilities as - pedestrian overhead lights, etc. So that would be included in the cost of the subdivision. It also provides that easements for telephone and power installations in subdivisions shall be obtained prior to construction taking place instead of prior to the aoproval of council, or the subdivision.

In addition the clause grants more flexibility to council with respect to the charges it may make in regard to land developed for public parks and playgrounds in new subdivisions. 11325

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4030 Page 2 - ms MR. DINN: Clause (9) empowers the council to charge a planning fee to developers of new subdivisions to permit the recovery of the cost of administrative and technical services provided with respect to checking out the plans, etc that are provided by developers to the city. so, Mr. Speaker,~ I move second reading. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to say verr~much about this particular bill. A lot of it is simple housekeeping as the minister has explained pretty well. RB.. DINN: I did not use that word. MR.

WHITE: No, I know you did not use that word. And the minister at this time did give a good explanation to the House of what it is all about, and other ministers would be advised to do the same. There is one thing here that I am a little concerned about, Mr. Speaker, and I would like for the minister to address himself to it and that is the emergency powers being conferred on the council and mayor in St. John's. Now I lived in St.

John's for a long, long time, and I saw a lot of emergencies,or so-called emergencies, and in my opinion they were not always emergencies, and I could suggest that at sometimes they were probably erratically arrived at the decisions to call emergencies in St. John's. By 2:00 P.M. the sun might be shining and very little snow on the ground. But there is one section, and that is 47 (a)(

b) that sort of concerns me, and I would like for the minister to address himself to it, because this gives the Mayor of St. John.'s power to call an emergency in St. John's whenever she feels like it,or he or whoever the mayor might be. It says that the council or mayor, as the case may be, may delcare a state of emergency in the city or any specified parts or parts thereof when it appears desirable in the public interest 11326

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4030 Page 3 - ms Mr. White. to do so because of the city being affected in whole or in part by civil commotion. Now that is one of the things mentioned there. Now what is a civil commotion, Mr. Speaker? Is a civil commotion a simple demonstration outside of City ~al.l, by a __ _ group of taxi drivers? Is that a civil commotion? Should not we here in the Legislature who are giving powers to municipal councils be a little mo~e specific in what we are doing? Now, granted the mayor and council in St.

John's are reasonable people, they are responsible people, and I am not suggesting anything else, but I am iust wondering, Mr. Speaker, if we should bestow this kind of power MR. DINN: They already haveeit. MR. WHITE: I know thev already have it. - if we should continue to bestow this kind of power on the city council in 11.32? -..

June 9, 1977 Tape 4031 (Morning) PK- 1 Mr. White: St. John's or any other municipal body without some provision that there be consultation with the Provincial Government,which is the highest government in the Province. Would it not be appropriate if somebody at City Hall decided there should be a state of emergency for the Mayor or some member of Council to touch base with the Minister of Justice or the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing before going ahead and declaring a state of emergency. It would not take much, maybe just a phone call or something.

But,as I said,I am a little concerned what a civil commotion could be , Almost anything could be classed in the form of a civil commotion, three or four street lights out and that would almost be classed as cause for a state of emergency. It concerns me a little bit because I am very concerned about the rights of people, and about people's rights generally throughout the Province, and in St. John's as well. And I am just wondering whether or not this is a little bit too much power for the Provincial Government to be passing on. Other than that, Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me that the rest of this is just housekeeping. Most of it designed to faci1itate the new town manager or the City Manager in St. John's, Mr. Henley,who I understand is doing a good job. So I would just ask the minister to comment on my remarks with respect to civil commotion being a cause for declaring a state of emergency in St. John's. I also wonder why Paragraph A of

Section 72 (

a) of the said Act as amended by striking out the words "three of whom shall be members of council". Why members of council who are not required to be on the Recreation Commission any more. Because I have always encouraged members of councils in other towns because I have seen cases Fhere the Recreation Commission have sort of gotten out of hand because there has been no member of council on it in some 11.328

June 9, 1977 Tape 4031 (Morning) PK- 2 Mr. White: of the smaller areas of the Province, and I just wondered why they can set up a Recreation Commission without having a member of council on it? It would seem to me to the advantage of council to have a member on the Commission to see hmv things are going. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Mount Pearl. MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few comments on this bill. First of all I would like to say to the minister I will be supporting it, although I have a few things that I want to say about it, and things I do not agree with in it.

But since it is basically requested by the City of St. John's, these are matters really municipal problems. I respect the City's right to govern their City as they see fit. And I do not see any great problem with this, although as I said there are some things that I disagree with. Let me comment on the han. gentleman first. I could make a comment on what a civil disaster is at City Hall, but I will be charitable and not make any comment. Section (3), Mr. Speaker, relating to increasing the fine on dogs from - MR. PECKFORD: What gender was that civil disaster? MR. N. WINDSOR: Neither. MR. PECKFORD: Neither. MR. N.

WINDSOR: - $5 to $100 be increased on the fine for animals roaming at large. I respect the city's reason for doing that as an attempt to solve a doy problem which pretty well every city in North America is faced ,;v-ith, and I am familiar with it. The Community of Mount Pearl has struggled with it for years. I do not think this is going to do an awful ~-ot to solve it. What it will do, Mr.

Speaker, is an animal that is roaming at large because its owner does not care for it, really could not care less.,will be picked up by the animal controllers and will be destroyed because these people are not going to pay $100 for that animal, they do not care enough for it.

Whereas the person who has perhaps a pure bred 11329

June 9, 1977 Tape 4031 (Morning) l'K - 3 Mr. N. Windsor: animal or an animal that is really cared for if that animal gets loose, perhaps the mailman leaves the gate open or the children untie the dog or this sort of thing, and on one or two occasions he~gets out, well these people \-7ho really care for the animal, and who are pretty well all of the time caring for it and looking after it, and keeping it tied on or within a confined garden whatever will then have to face.a $100 fine to get it back. So obviously they will pick up their animal, and they will pay this fine.

But the person who is not looking after their animal, is letting it roam at large all of the time~ that animal will be picked up and destroyed. So in effect what this clause will be doing will be ensuring that more animals will be destroyed. But that is the city's decision. If that is the way they wish to tackle their dog problem I will not vote against it, but simply express my concerns on it. Clauses (8) and (9) are the ones that concern me more, Hr.

Speaker. ~~at the city is doing here is putting more restrictions on land developers,and what I am afraid of is that if we put too many ( restrictions on land 1.1330

June 9,1977 Tape 4032 - ~orniP-g P...H-1 MR.. N. \i1!1T])SOR: developers, soon you will not find any private developers. For instance, including pedestrian overhead lights and poles there in

Part 1 of Clause 8. How far do you go.when you say to a developer you must develop? Perhaps it is legitimate, but I t-1ould rather out that - HR. HHITE: The consumer is gain~ to pav anyway. MR. N. WINDSOR: Yes~the homeo~-1ner is going to pay, the person who buys the property is going to pay for it. Hhat you are talking about here is traffic control. Now does the oerson who buys a piece of land, does he accept the responsibility for traffic control in his area or is that a city-wide responsibility that is going to be shared from the general tax dollar paid by every citizen? In

Part 3 of that same clause deals with the percentage of land to be given, I think, for recreational facilities. Is that correct? ~m. DI~: Yes. ~-ffi.. N. HTNDSOR: The general procedure in many communities or most communities that I am familiar with~ is that ten per cent of the land area would be set aside as open space or for recreation, ~-1hich is a reasonable percentage. And I think that that is indeed the city 1 Spractice at the moment'lalthough in certain instances it has been less, I think.,- and perhaps in certain instances more.

Hhat this is doing is giving the city flexibility to set that amount and I accept that, that is fine,but is there a miximum? I do not see one here. The city could very well say,·"Hell, let us make it thirty per cent or forty per cent.' 1 That would prohibit that development from proceeding. The same thing in

Section 9(1) the charge of a planning fee to a new development. I would say that if there has been a charge, the city has paid planning costs directly relating to that subdivision . MR. DINN: That is what they are talking about here. 11R., N. WHIDSOR: Well,it is not very clear. .'1R.. DINN: That is all ther~ i~ to it. -... 11331.

June 9,1977 Tape 4032 - Morning AH-2 MR. N. 1>7INDSOR: Yes .,I realize that, but it is not the point I am trying to make. If there is a cost it is directly related to that subdivision, for instance, . -if a planner goes in and says, or a developer goes into the city and says,"Look.,I want to develop this piece of property~' And the city says to him, ''Fine, yes ,you may develop it. Here is your street layout!' Now that is a fair piece of work already done for you,if it is a properly engineered layout, design, preliminary plan.

If that is given to the developer then the developer has benefited simply because he has a certain amount of engineering work already done for him and he will not have to do it. So it is fair and reasonable I think that the developer should pay a cost or a charge for that.

But if the city is going to build into that planning costa proportion of planning, arterial roads and the overall city, for instance,if they are going .tlo put in a proportion of P:!.an 91, a proportion of any cost they might have incurred in the urban region plan, this sort of thing, I question ~vhether or not that is valid to be charged to that subdivision. Or is that an overall city responsibility? Now this is the clarification I would like to have on that.

If it is purely within that area of land that is being developed by a private developer, if they are charges that have been put in there that if the city had not done it then the private develoner would have to do it then that is fair ball, that is fine,as long as the cities costs are not outrageous in comparison to \vhat the private developer could have done the same work for with his own consultants. But if it is charges that are incurred because of an overall city plan then I do not feel _they should go in there. So as I said, Mr.

Speaker, I just point to these couple -of comments· • I disagree with these things but I will support the bill. MR . SPEAKER: If the hon.minister now speaks he closes the debate. The han minister. 11332

June 9,1977 Tape 4032 - Morning AH-3 MR. DI~: Hr. Speaker, just to reply to the hon.member for Lewisporte with respect to emergency pmo7el:' · ~, what we are basically here is that the powers that v1ere contained in the act are staying in the act and we are adding one more and that is the water shortage one. Having just completed ~.ay Bulls Big Pond ~ole do not anticipate a water shortage in the next year or two so I do not think that will be a problem but they want it in there and I saw no reason why it should not go in.

Hith respect to the specific item "a civil commotion" brought up by the han member from Lewisporte,it was in the act before and councils have,to my way of thinking,controlled this to some extent, I mean~they have not done it on ad hoc basis·thev ' - had an emergency when it ~-1as there. Now there might have been soom time lag from the time of removing the emergency and so on but they certainly have not been irresponsible or anything in this res!'ect. ?vrn.. WHITE: I did not sav thPv were. HR. DINN: No,I know you did not. HR. WHITE: I pointed out it could hav,en. MR.

DINN: It could happen, yes , but we have to - v7e are trving to , Mr. Speaker, give more local autonomy to 1.1333

June 9, 1977 Tape No. 4033 NM- 1 ~fR. DINN: government and as they progress and since this has been in the act I would not ~nt to take that away unless they were~for example,to abuse something like that and then of course the minister and the Lieutenant-Governor in Council indeed have certain po"~<7ers that could certainly control any situation that may arise in that case. So, Mr. Speaker, I note the concern of the bon. member and certainly ~"e are all concerned that these things are followed, the intent of the legislation is followed and not to be abused in the future.

With respect to the hen. member for Haunt Pearl (Hr. N. Windsor) and the fee to be charged for roaming dogs now, Mr. Speaker, I realize that $100 is a fair amount of money to pay if your dog happens to get out of the yard and gets caught roaming. I had a dog myself, a collie dog~and it got out once in all the time that I had it; it got free and got out and if it had been caught by the dog catcher,whomever, I would have had to ?aY the $100, and I would have paid it. I would have felt " bad about it but I would have paid it.

I think the problem we have in the city with respect to roaming dogs is a very serious prohlem 9 and certainly $5 is not going to help in any way to control that problem. $100 may be a little bit high but to my Tilay of thinking we should leave that kind of power in the hands of the city. If a person cares for his animal, if it gets out once and it costs $100 it will not get out the second time. ~. WHITE: Is it always a fine of SlOO, or is that a maximum? MR. DINN: That is a maximum, SlOO. MR. WHITE: They can fine whatever they want, can they? MR. DINN: Just one moment now,I ~~11 check that.

MR. ~ffiiTE: It is $100 regardless, is it not? A.l\l HO~. NEMBER: It is automatically $100. - ~ 11334

June 9, 1977 Tape No, 4033 NM- 2 "-ffi.. DINN: Yes,it is $100. Right now it is $5, it would be $100. Right. So $100 is a little bit stee~ but I do not think, Mr. Speaker, any one who cares for his animal and has to pay $100 if the animal gets out would think twice about allowing that animal to get free the second time. AN HON. MEMBER: Dogs are becoming a nuisance. ~R. DINN: They certainly are. Here in the city they are a problem right now. I know I had a problem with dogs around the area I lived previously and right now. HF,. PECKFORD: The place is gone to the dogs. MR. Ditrn: Now, Mr.

Speaker, with respect tc restriction on developers, etc. Basically if you read through this carefully what they are talking about here is with respect to the ten per cent of land, in some areas of the city where there is an existing plan for open space and recreation, etc., what we are talking about here is that some cf this in a development would go over the ten ner cent and councils do not want to be restricted to just that ten per cent.

If it happens to be in a oarticular development, thfrteen per cent and they want the right to have that thirteen per cent, especially if you have got a heavily oopulated or densely po~ulated area for development. So that is basically what we are getting at here. Y>R. N. lH~DSOR: If the minister will permit a comment on that? If because of a plan that is laid f\ down by the city the amount of open space is more than ten per cent 9 then the city should comoensate the developer for the price of the raw land over and above ten per cent.

Otherwise the cost of ycur land is going to go up so high that the private horne owner is still going to be paying for it, the guy who is trying to buy that lot. And if you keep doing that, and keep adding these costs into a nrivate development,there comes a time where your land is no longer saleable. ~. DINN: ¥es, Mr. Speaker, I realize that, you know,as a problem but if you have more than ten per cent development then obviously the -i · 1.1335

June 9, 1977 Tape No. 4033 ~m. DI}~: people in there will have the advantage of that open space, and they are paying for the advantage in their area. So what we are saying is in St. John's, which is not the same in most other places in the Island,. but in St. John's what we are saying is if you have fourteen per cent open space you pay for fourteen per cent open space. And that is basically what we are getting at here.

Section 9, I believe 9 (1), the hon. member brought up was Ylith respect to planning fees and ~-1hat the city is addressing itself to here is that when a develoner comes in with a nlan for an area to develop and they have to go through certain procedures and if it is a fairly intricate plan it costs a little more and if it is a small development it costs,you know, it may be approved almost immediately. So what they are saying here is that they be given the opnortuni ty to recover the administratbre costs and whatever planning costs, etc., that are involved.

So that is what they are asking for, the power tc· recover those costs. MR. N. WINDSOR: I realize that but I am just ~vondering what the cost will be, and who will decide. 'MR. DINN: I cannot determine that right now. MR. N. WINDSOR: I know. I realize that. ~-· DINN: Okay. So with that, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading. On motion, a hill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. ~. PECKFORD: Order 12, Bill No. 68. :!otion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of Corner Brook Act," (No. 68). }ffi..

SPEAKER: The han. Minister of '1'-'l'unicipal Affairs and Housing. -... 11336

June 9, 1977 Tape No. 4033 NM- 4 ~. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and these are amendments as we are aware to the City of Corner Brook Act. I have done the same thing for hon. members if th~~ _ will ~ear with me. Just to go through the individual clauses that ue are becoming involved in here, Clause 1 provides for authority for the city to vary the penalties to be applied in respect of breaches of city regulations mainly. The

section was originally in The City Act and 71 to 76 was repealed and is now being reinstated. MR. ~.nHTE: Why was that? MR. DINN: ~.]ell there ~vas thought ·to be a '!Jroblem with that

section and we have since referred it to Justice and had a discussion about it with the city and we do not see the problem that He thought there was in the act so we decided that it would be a good idea. MR. BECKFORD: In other words~ you changed your mind. t>!R. DINN: To put it back in. Right. ~·!R. PECKFORD: Okay. MR. DINN: Clause 2 provides for taxation of mobile homes and trailers and establishes the accepted definition of real property across Canada. So they are just now they ~~11 be able to tax mobile homes and trailers as property tax. Clause 3 . ~ · 11337

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4034 Page 1 - ms Mr. Dinn. provides for a fine of $25 as a general penalty particularly with respect to non-payment of taxes. So these are the three clauses in the act, and the explanation of the amendments that we are attempting to put in, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, we can go along with this. If the city of Corner Brook wants those powers, we will give them the powers. I mean it is as simple as that.

I would like to say one thing that really this act is now giving the mobile homeowners or making them eligible for the same kind of property taxes as everybody else. On the other hand~it is still discrimination against mobile homeowners and traile~owners because their insurance rates are so much higher and it is still going to be inequitable because they are going to have to pay higher insurance rates but at the same time pay basically the same real property tax as other homeowners. So, you know, that is a bit of a concern to me, but that is another issue that we can deal with some other time. Mr.

Speaker, we have no problem with this. We will go along with it. MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. The hon. minister. MR. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, just to address myself to the one item brought up by the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr. White). I realize the problem, of course, with mobile homeowners and the fact that the insurance is much higher, and there is a difference there. The problem the city is having is the fact that they have property tax out in the city, and these people have property and they are basically getting off scot- -free right now. AN HON.

MEMBER: Do they have to pay anything? MR. DINN: They have to pay what I believe in the ._ city of Corner Brook is a service fee. So what they want to do is 11338

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4034 Page 2 - ms MR. DINN: make it more equitable. By the way,this is the accepted way that it is done across Canada. Real prop~ rty defined in other jurisdictions is, you know, contained in mobile homes and trailers. So this is just to clear that up. MR. WHITE: In St. John's is there a mobile home park? MR.. DINN: I do not know if they have a mobile home park within the city, Mr. Speaker, ~~ ~ _I _ do not believe they do. They are outside the city. lo with that, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of Corner Brook Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole Bouse presently by leave. 1.1.339 -t:·

June 9, 1977, Tape 4035, Page 1 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: Order 16, Bill No. 75. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Community Councils Act, 1972. 11 (Bill No. 75). MR. SPEAKER: The han. the ~1inister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. t1R. DINN: Mr. Speaker, this one I was not anticipating coming up right away. There is not very much in this. There are three clauses in this also respecting community councils. They are very simple to read so I did not necessarily go through any condensation of what is here.

The purpose of clause 1 of this amendment is to clarify the voting procedure whereby if a councillor now decides that he does not want to vote, we still have to have a majority voting for a particular item. Clause 2: The amendment would permit the minister to waive audit of a community's accounts under specific regulations.

Section 24(1) and (2) of the present act reads that audits go on on a yearly basis and right now I can waive them. In most cases they are not required, there is just not that much. Clause 3: This amendment would make it an offense not to pay a tax in accordance with the Act or to fail to collect and pay over a tax under the Act when required to do so by the Act. The new provision follows

section 98 of the local Government Act, so we are attempting to put this in here and make it the same as is now contained in the Local Government Act. That is it, ~,1r. Chairman. r1 R • ~~ H I T E : r~ r • C h a i r m a n , j u s t a c o u p 1 e of concerns with respect to community councils. The minister is talking about waiving the audit of community councils and I am just wondering whether or not there 1.1340

June 9, 1977, Tape 4035, Page 2 -- apb MR. WHITE: should be closer scrutiny of community council books rather than less scrutiny of community council books and other council books throughout the Province? In many cases, as the minister knows, there are inexperienced municipal workers in some of those areas - in a lot of areas - because there are only part-time town clerks and so on, and it would be my feeling that we should maintain some kind of policing activity with respect to the books of community councils and town councils. Also, Mr.

Speaker, there is something else I would like to see, and that is a little more direction given to community councils and town councils in Newfoundland by the minister•s department. I know that they are moving into regional offices and I have to commend the department for this. because I feel they are working out pretty good. At least the one in my area, in Gander, is working out pretty good. It is still not up to the standard that is should be. I think it should be to the point where councils would be able to send delegations into the regional office in Gander, but yet they all still want to come to St.

John•s to meet with the minister because they feel they can get a better hearing. Because they have expressed the concern to me that the regional offices cannot make the decisions that they should be able to make. So it would be my feeling that more power should be given to the regional offices of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing so they could make some decisions on the spot. It is usually the case that they cannot make decisions without going to St. John•s. With respect to the collection of taxes, this is a big concern, Mr. Speaker, in rural areas.

The minister knows full well that in some cases communities have been split right down the middle because ~134~

June 9, 1977, Tape 4035, Page 3 -- apb MR. WHITE: of the system of collecting local taxes. People on council have to collect taxes from their relatives and they are not speaking to them for weeks on end. Surely we should be aiming at maybe some kind of tax collector service in a regional area where one tax collector is responsible for a certain number of councils. I know that that will eventually come about with regional government, but this is something that I would like to see straightened up.

Because I know where new councils have gone in in my area in particular, they have been hated for months and years after that. I was also going to ask the minister, Mr. Speaker, about the collection of service fees in smaller areas. Councils have expressed the opinion to me that they are at a loss to determine how to collect local taxes. It is very, very difficult collecting local taxes. MR. PECKFORD: It is not now. The bill last year provided for a fine beside the fact that - MR. WHITE: But I am still getting those complaints. MR. PECKFORD: MR. WHITE: and Is that right? They take it to the court 11342

June 9, 1977 Tape 4036 (Horning) PK- 1 MR. WHITE: the magistrate does very little about it. MR. PECKFORD: He has to fine them now_ you see. - MR. WHITE: He has to? l1R. PECKFORD: Yes. MR. WHITE: Yes, I know. MR. PECKFORD: Before he did not. MR. WHITE: In one council in my area there is about two hundred and some odd taxpayers, and there are over one hundred that have not paid for about two years. I think that is absolutely ridiculous. I have spoken to the officers of the Department of Hunicipal Affairs about it, and they have sent some instruction• to the council concerned.

But this is one area that I would like to see something done about, and that is with respect to the collection of local taxes when councils got to do it themselves, go to court, testify against there grandmothers or grandparents. It is absolutely ridiculous and something such be done about it. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): If the minister now speaks the debate is closed. MR. J. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have,as the hon. member knows,quite a fe~.;r community councils in Newfoundland, and a lot of them are operating from year to year with virtually no problem at all.

So what this does now, this amendment, under certain conditions, as judged by the minister, an audit may not be done, you know, this particular year. In some instances we would like to do an audit every month. . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: Yes. But this is a recommendation, you know, by the Auditor General, and, you know, I accept the Auditor General's statement in most cases as to what is - MR. ROUSSEAU: ---- ~- --- - -··- Be very sensitive of the Auditor General. MR. DINN: Yes. Theother one mentioned by the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr. White) is more power to the regional office.

Well basically the regional offices that we have set up now can handle 1.1343

June 9, 1977 Tape 4036 (Morning) PK - 2 Mr. Dinn: most things with respect to council~. They can assist them with books, they can assist them with certain things in the community, and that kind of thing. They cannot spend money. ~. NEARY: I wish you would go down to Burnt Island and hold an election down there. MR. DINN: They cannot spend money, and that is reasonable. There has to be control of the purse strings somewhere. They just cannot say, you know, for your region you can have $50,000 or something like that, and give themt~ at option, you know.

So only with respect to the spending of money~ The sending in of reports, if they, for example, if councils want something done in a community we will send the regional engineer to that community to have a look at it to see if indeed it is a requirement,and how much approximately it would cost. Then his report is made up and sent into St. John's here, and they have a look at it downstairs, and if they got the dollars available, if it is with respect to a special grant or something then it goes into the Finance Committee and it is approved or disapproved.

But basically the regional office is,from our point of view,a verification of requests, and it takes a little time, communication-wise,to get back and forth. But I 'think it has cut the time in half, you know, for approval of most of these items in that it is a matter sometimes of a phone call from the regional office, the council has gone to the regional office,talked to them, and then sent their request in here for dollars or something, it is a matter of calling the regional office and asking what is the story on a request for such and such.

You know, it can be done on the phone in a lot of cases, and the regional office is aware of basically what is going on in the communities. The tax collection problem is one, Mr. Speaker, that the amendment here would clarify even more. Right now community councils are having quite a difficult problem collecting taxes and they go to the magistrate and the magistrate fines them, fines the 1.1344

June 9, 1977 Tape 4036 (Morning) PK - 3 ~1 r . Dinn : person so much money $25, and then that is all the council hea rs about it. They do not kno~., the procedure to follow. Councils are having trouble with the proce dures to follow to collect t he taxes having gotten the judgment from the courts . And that is a continuing problem . Right now under this

section a person would be guilty of an offence on each day that he does not pay his taxes. So that right no,., it is advisable for the person t-lho is 1.1345

June 9, 1977 Tape 4037 EC - 1 I ; I in tax arrears to pay the taxes and this }'lR. DINN: I enforces the lc?mmunity puts a person who does council's authority to collect that taxes. It not pay in a pretty precarious position right now. So this is why this amendment was put in there, to attempt to I assist them i~ enforcing their powers to collect. I do not know if we will ever : have tax collectors in Ne~v-foundland. I certainly would not want to be a tax collector in a community. ~·~R. HICIG.fAN: St. Hatthe-,;.7 \vas a tax collector. }!P.. DINN: Yes, he ~.;ras. Anyway, }fr.

Speaker, I hope this explains the different ~ o' n ts brought up by the hon. member and I therefore move second read i ng . On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Community CollflCJ s .Act, 1972," Bill ~o. 75, read a second time, ordered referred to a cotnim.ttee of the \·H-10le !louse presently by leave. MR. SPEA..T(ER: (D Collins) Hotion 5. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of t he Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. CO't-!MITTEE OF THE rm.OLE MR. CHAIID-fAN: Order, please!

P.ESOLUTION I That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend\ the Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957 - the Act No. 71 of 1957 to provi ?e for the advance of loans to and the guarantee of the ! repayment of fun ds with debentures issued by or loans advanced to certain local author i tie s . MR. CRAIPJ1P..N : Shall the resolution carry? llR. DOODY: Hr. Chairnan. HR. CHAi illM. The hon. the Minister of Finance. HR. DOODY: I was bringing to the attention, Sir, of the House Leader that there are a couple of typographical errors in the bill itself and they would have to be amended.

There is one there that 1.1346

June 9, 1977 Tape 4037 EC - 2 (lCR. DOODY: says $300,!)00 which is $30,000 and the other one is the year. I think they have got the \•7rong year in there. This particular motion, Sir, deals with the annual shopping list of the Department of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing and asks the House to - }1R. NEAH.Y: ~ffiat is the number of the bill? ~TR. DOODY: Bill No. 74 - asks the ~-louse to approve the water and sewerage and other programmes that were carried out through the various municipalities in the Province during the past year.

I notice as usual, and it happens every year, that they have not bothered to total it in the bill. This year I was somewhat more prepared so that the total amount is $23,786,000- a little bit short of $24 million. And this is the regular N1PC financing. As members are aware, each year as the various projects are approved, short term financing is arranged through the banks near the communities who have made the application for the progra~eor project.

And from time to time as the debenture issue is raised the proceeds of that issue are used to pay the short term financing and arrange a long term financing with the various municipalities. HR. F. WHITE: this year? HR. DOODY: How does this relate to projects goirg ahead This is not related to projects for this year. This is for the year that - although some of them may very well be ongoing and will have to be completed this year.

There is maybe part of last year's - some of them, those that are in here that are not com­ pleted - certainly the most of them unless there are some extraordinary reasons why they should not be, presumably these particular projects ~vhich are not completed ~rill be. The money will be provided to the communities to finish them - not to finish them,in many cases, but to carry them on. For instance the town council of Conception Bay South are in there for $1.8 million and $1.6 million and in this particular bill they will undoubtedly be in the coming - years and in next year is and I wonder if there 1.1347

- a .June .. , 1977 Tape 4037 !:":C - 3 !R . DOODY: is enough money in Fort Knox to finish the ~vater and se~verage systen in Conception South, but it has got to be done . I guess Conception Bay South is probably the third or fourth largest community in the Province right notv . I think it is St. John's, Corner Brook and then Conception South in terms of population. So obviously there is a great need there and it is very expansive. There is another one 1.1.348

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4038 Page l - ms Mr. Doody. that shows up every year, and I fully expect to see it every year as long as I am around and maybe many years beyond that, and that is the Town Council of Bay Roberts. That seems to be a water and sewage system that never gets finished. It is an ongoing programme. MR. NEARY: That is probably road paving. MR. DOODY: No. I can identify them. I can run down the list very quickly if hon. members would like to know what the programmes are for. I will take them in order.

The Town Council of Bay Roberts, water and sewage; town Council of BishoPs Falls, water and sewage; Bonavista, water and sewage; Botwood~ paving; - MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: Is that fifty/fifty now? Sixty/forty. - Botwood Urban Development area - there was a second one there· - MR. NEARY: Oh, that got the member for Exploits elected. MR. DOODY: No, that was last year. MR. RIDEOUT: That was some Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOODY: That was last year. That got the hon. - MR. NEARY: Yes, but you had - MR. DOODY: Yes, I know, but this particular project was to help get our friend over here elected.

Anyway there were some sober second thoughts about that decision and the people went back to the polls again. - the Town Council of Brigus, partial sewer system; Burin, sewer; Cape St. George, water and partial sewer; Carbonear, water trunk main; Channel - Port aux Basques, water system;Clarenville, comprehensive development area; Clarenville again, water and sewage; Corner Brook, water system; Corner Brook, water and sewage; Coachman's Cove, water system, Conception South~ again - well, I mentioned that earlier.

That is a water and sewage; Conception South, water and sewage; Town Council of Dover, water and sewage; 11349

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4038 Page 2 - ms Mr. Doody. Freshwater, water system; Gander, water system; Gander, pump house and associated facilities; Gander, paving. That is a sixty/forty programme. I am going through this in anticipation of eventually finding something for Harbour Main - Bell Island. I go through this exercise every year. MR. NEARY: The only thing you will find for Bell Island is a property tax. And the minister promised these people over there a meeting and he did not keep his promise. MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: And they did not have the meeting.

There was no public meeting - And there was no public meeting. - and the people did -not lik~ it: That is right. Well, there is no sense in saying that it was in my absence, but anyway that is another storv. MR. NEARY: Gendreau is going to get the works in November. You will have no more trouble with him. MR. DOODY: Well, if Mr.Gendreau would be a little less vocal we would not have as half as many problems.· The property tax that is imposed over there . now is-less in many cases than the service fee that was being paid. It is not the property tax that is the factor~nor is it even the mil rate.

It is the assessment of the value assessment, and the value assessement of the properties on Bell Island were very, very low. The actual tax bills in many cases would be less than the service feethat they were charged. But unfortunately it was not presented in quite that light by the town council. MR. NEARY: He should go up and give his buddy 'Rene' a hand. MR. DOODY: Gander, pump house and related works; Glenwood, water system; Glenwood, street paving- - What district is that in? MR. DOODY: I do not know. It is not in Harbour Main - Bell Island, I can assure you of that. 11350

June 9, 1977 Tape no. 4038 Page 3 - ms Mr. Doody. Gillams, water and sewage system; Glovertown, water and sewage system; Goulds, water and sewage system;Grand Falls, regular water supply; Grand Falls, upgrading and ~aving; Greenspond, water system. There .. must be a reservoir up in the hills. A Hampdem water and sewage system; Happy Valley - Goose Bay, water system; Harbour Grace, pay ?ond issue re Harbour Grace stadium; Town Council of - MR. NEARY: The Moores Memorial. MR. DOODY: The Moores Memorial Stadium. - Hawkes Bay,sewage system; Holyrood, town hall and fire hall. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

DOODY: How about that? I remember that very well. This is one of the - MR. NEARY: That was before the 1972 election. MR. DOODY: No, that was done last year. This is one of the few in here which there is no subsidy. This is one of the ones that has been paid back3in full. They are paying it off themselves. All they needed was a government guarantee. Oh, well, so much for progressive communities. They verv rarely get mentioned. MR.

PECKFORD: The Minister of Finance, I guess, knows that I am thinking that it might be the only guaranteed loan to a municipality in the Province of the size of Holyrood where there is no subsidy. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, not true. MR. DOODY: They got a subsidy on their water system, their water and sewage system,- MR. PECKFORD: That is a guranteed loan • . 11351.

June 9,1977 Tape 4039 - Horning AH-1 HR. DOODY: -and a very substantial subsidy it is ~oo. As a matter of fact~if the water system and the sewerage system up in Holyrood is so elaborate as to be really a shame and it is certainlv not the fault of the people in the community. The thing was just foisted on them • • . }1R. NEARY: Channel.-:-:_];l_o_r_t_ aux ~-~sq:!l_e_s~ MR. PECKFORD: It is larger than Holyrood. HR. DOODY: And that was done - the water system in Holyrood -now, the water and sewage system there was done just prio~_to a _ ~omentou~ date of 1971. 1'-IR. NEARY: September 18,1975. HR.

DOODY: No ,it was done in 1971 just prior to that great election when the Doody-Dal•7e team met 'head on that fantastic team of ~ahoney and Fagan. ~fR. NE.A.RY: ~.fuat -.:vas that was done? ~fR. DOODY: The water -se~verage in Holyrood. There is no mention of it here, it has long since been - MR. WHITE: ~o is better off? HR. DOODY: Mr. Fagan and Mr. }~honey appear on the face of it to have come out best in the result. Dawe and I won the election and - MR. WHITE: You have been sufferine ever since. t1R. NEARY: The real winners. Like the real winner in LaPoile was Al Evans • HR.

DOODY: Fell_,you know_,you did the same generous deed for one of our local attorneys ,, now very actively practicing in St. Johnls, who-had served as the member for Bell Island. t-~R. NEARY: T~at is right. }'ffi. DOODY: I did the same service for you in Bell Island and you now have a very comfortable pew in LaPoile.

The Indian Bay water and sewerage system ; community of Lourdes-,water and particallv sewerage system. ! -presume that is Lourdes on the West Coast and not in France; Leading Tickles rest, water system; Massey Drive, water-sew·erage; Mciv.ers, water and sewerage system; the Town of Mount Pearl,complete stadium; community of 11352

June 9,1977 Tape 4039 - Forning AH-2 }f.R. DOODY: ?A:elrose~water and sewerage system; North ~.Jest River, water and sewerage system; Pasadena~sewerage system; Petty Harbour - Maddox Cove,water and sewerage system; town of Placentia,water and sewerage system; Point Leamington., water and se~verage; Pouch Cove, water and sewerage system; Robert':s Arm,se~.rerage system; Roddickton., water and sewerage system; Salvage,water system; Shoal Harbour, water system; Southern Harbour,water _and sewerage system; St.Alban~s, water and sewerage system.

And that seems to be another one that is in there every year and will continue to be in there every vear. St.Alban's again, water and sewerage system; St. Bernard~s, sewerage system; St. John's Metropolitan Area Board, water and sewerage system,Old Petty Harbour Road area; St. Brendan's, ~rater system- that is an artesian well system; St. George's~water and sewerage system ; Spaniard's Bay,water and sewerage system; Spaniard's Hay,paving; Stephenville Crossing~~ater system; St.

Lawrence,improvement to the draina~e system; Terrenceville,water ' and selverage system; Torbay, water and sewerage system - that is .. another town that is after growing in leaps and bounds over the past couple of years; Trinity,.. Bonavista Bay,water and sel..rerage system. Oh, this is one of the more popular and prosperous communities in the Province HR. NEARY: Port aux Basques. }ffi.. DOODY: Triton-Jim's Cove-Card's Harbour.,~.rater and sewerage system. FR. NEARY: You talk about pork barreling! MR. DOODY: Here is another one for Triton-Jim's Cove- :MR.NEARY: He were only babies! HR. DOODY: -Card's ~arhour.

I think every person in this House should have a turn at being Hinister of Municipal Affairs. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, ·hear!- MR. DOODY: Upper Island Cove.,water and sewerage system; town council of ~o/abana MR. NEARY: Hhat is that about Upper Island Cove? MR. DOODY: Upper Island Cove,water and sewerage system. MR !-'!EARY : How much? 11353

June 9, 1977, Tape 4039, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOODY: $205,000. MR. NEARY: We had a petition the other day. That must be engineering work or something. MR. PECKFORD: No, it is sewer. MR. DOODY: No, water and sewerage it says here. MR.. PECKFORD : Water and - MR. DOODY: Water in the sewerage line. MR. PECKFORD: In the subdivision. MR. DOODY: Sort of a slurry system. MR. NEARY: It is not in the main part of Upper Island Cove. MR. DOODY: And that happens on many occasions too. And here is one of the more progressive communities. Wabana, $74,500 for repairs to the arena. MR. NEARY: What? MR.

DOODY: $74,500 for repairs to the arena for Wabana. You certainly would not deprive or certainly would not ask that the people on Wabana be deprived of their arena. MR. NEARY: No, but I have a few questions I would like to ask the minister about it though ju~t the same, if he does not mind. MR. DOODY: I do not think I will continue with this, Your Honour. Wedgewood Park, paving. That is another self-sufficient community that pays the whole shot all the way, K-Mart pays the whole shot all the way, the town of K-Mart. Whitbourne, water and sewerage system. The town of Windsor, to redeem a debenture. MR.

WHITE: What is that about? MR. DOODY: I can only assume that that was a previous loan which they could not pay and the Department of Municipal Affairs must have had to refinance it for them .and put it back in there. That is the only thing that I can imagine that that might be for. As I say, these are all Municipal Affairs projects and there is little that I can add to that except to say that the list is as I have read it and the total amount which was guaranteed by this Province was $23,786,000. The . .. 11354

June 9,1977 Tape 4039 - trorning AH-4 MR. DOODY: gentleman who prepared the notes for me was kind enough to put on the bottom of the list, '·Note: The initials W and S indicated above stand for Hater and sewage systems," which is probably one . ---· · . of the greatest compliments that I have ever been paid since I came into this outfit. MR. WHITE: A real bureaucrat. MR. DOODY: In any event, Your Honour, I commend the resolution to the attention of the committee and sincerely hope that the committee grants the authority to look after these very w·orth~.;rhile projects.

I would be ashamed to have to go out there now and start rolling up that pavement and digging up systems. I cannot do it. MR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman. HR. DOODY: One other thing before the gentleman sits down. ~To, no!t.Jhen you stand up could you explain please for the benefit Of the COmmittee the Significance Of tre necktie, T,7here it came from and does it have some special message for us? HR. NEARY: I believe I told the hon.gentleman it came from Nabraska, it came from Michigan really. A good friend of mine in ~fichigan sent it to me. - ~1R. DOODY: She knew you before then? MR.

NEARY: No these are very Fopular down in the United States. It cost $7.50 1.1.355

June 8, 1977 Tape No. 4040 NM- 1 ~1R. NEARY: in case the hon. gentleman is interested. And as the hon. gentleman can see it is ?Ointed towards that side of the House more or less for the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter). !-~. DOODY: He is not with us this morning. MR. NEARY: It is a fine day today. The hon. gentleman is back with his hands down in the savoury patch. He should be horse whipped, not go out in his savoury patch. Mr. Chairman, there are three or four items that were"read out there by the hon. gentleman that I "t-rant to ask a few questions about.

And the first one I ~rant to de:al with is the $650,000 loan and guarantee for the community of Torbay. As the hon. gentleman is aware,Metro Engineering, one of Mr. A.B. Walsh's co~anies,was the successful bidder on the contract to put water and sewerage into the community of Torbay. Now Mr. Falsh stated the other day that ~etro Engineering does not do any work for the government. Now my understanding is that these public tenders that were called were called by the Hinister of Municipal Affairs and Housing - !1R. DINN: On behalf of the town. ~.

NEA..l{Y: - and the loan and guarantee is taxpayers money out of the public treasury which will either have to be paid back in nart or in full or subsidized by the public treasury. So indirectly~~· Walsh, ~etro Engineering is doing a tra~endous ai"l.ount of business, or ~ras doing a fair amount of business vTith this government. So that is the first little point that: I ~,rant to make.

Now in the process of installing water and se~verage in the community of Torbay, M.etro Engineering,( for some reason that is unknown to the town council, decided to pull his men and eouipment out of the coYTll'!lunity of Torbay, leaving the toHn council and the people of Torbay high and dry as far as the implementation 11356

June 8 , 1977 Tape No . 4040 m.f - 2 ::-~ . ~!EARY: of tvater and sewerage is concerned.

Now the council has been forced to hav e a wTit served on the bond holde rs and on ~~etro Enginee ring to try and get t he t-1ork compl eted. now what I want to ask the minister is in the urocess of doin~ all t his , it could be a long , dratm -out legal ba ttle in the courts , i t could be a long , drawn - out process , it could cost the community of Torbay a lot o f money for l ega l fees, delays, escalation i n the cost of the project and so forth, no"t-7 "totho t.J'i.ll be resp onsible for this ultimate l y? \vill it be the contractor for pulling out for nc significant re ason other than wanting 11357

June 9, 1977 Tape 4041 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: a few fringe benefits that the town councilOf Torbay would not go along with? Who will pay for the escalation in cost? Will the cost be passed on to the people who will be using the water and se~ver services in Torbay as a result of this negligence and this pulling out by the contract because of incompetence, and because the contractor was unable to plan and organize his work? Will the people of Torbay be the ones that will have to suffer because of this?

Because undoubtedly there is going to be a tremendous increase now in the cost of putting in the first phase of water and sewerage in Torbay. It is going to cost a lot more than $SO,OOO,as the minister just read out in the Loan and Guarantee Act. Who will pick up the tab for the difference? If the community of Torbay has to come back and ask for,say,to have this brought up to $1 million increased by $350,000, because of the inconvenience and because of the contractor not wanting to finish the job, will the people of Torbay have to pay this? Will they have to foot the bills for the legal fees?

Why did the contractor pull out? Perhaps the minister can tell us. And how much of this money has been paid out to this contractor? Have there been any holdbacks? And if there are holdbacks.,would the minister tell the House nm-1 where the situation stands with regard these holdbacks? Will there be any penalties imposed on the contractor for pulling out and causing additional expenses to the people of this Province to put the water and sewerage, !:he first phase of this project in Torbay?

And while the minister is on his feet, perhaps the minister can give me the same information in connection with Pouch Cove, where I think $800,000 of a loan and guarantee has been made to the town of Pouch Cove for a forty year period. And the same contractor did exactly the same thing. Metro Engineering , again, Mr. A. B. Walsh,who made a public statement the other day that he does no business with this government- Metro Engineering does no business with this government? - indirectly have buo contracts valued at 11358

June 9, 1977 Tape 4041 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: $1, 450,000 in two contracts alone, and left the people down in Pouch Cove high and dry. Nmv what •..rill happen in this case? My understanding is in the case of Pouch Cove a writ has not yet been served on the bondholder - MR. DINN: Yes. MR. NEARY: The minister says, yes. Hell, I am looking for an updating now because we are approving the loan and guarantee. But a lot of this money has been paid out to clean up the mess that Hetro Engineering left behind, and there is still quite a mess in Pouch Cove.

As I said the other day,it looked like the landing in Normandy after Met~o Engineering pulled out. The tmm council had to go in,and I do not know whether they got permission from the minister but they had to use some of this loan, some of this money that was guaranteed, they had to use some of it to put back fences, to repair the road so that people could drive over the road to get back and forth to work in the community of Pouch Cove. The whole countryside, Sir, was practically destroyed, devastated by Metro Engineering, wh~ch pulled out again and left the people of Pouch Cove high and dry.

No"t<~r that is going to cost the people of Pouch Cove an additional sum of money. How much,we do not know. Will that be passed on to the householders? MR. DINN: Or the government? MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, it is the fault of Hetro Engineering. "HR. DINN: It has not been determined. HR. NE~\RY: It has been determined, Sir.

The community of Pouch Cove, the town council have been to see the minister on a number of occasions, and they were told they had three courses of action open to them, and the one I believe that got their dander up was to kick the consulting engineers off the site, to kick off Procter and Redfern \vhich are') I suppose, one of the most reputable engineering firms in this Province, in the nation. And it was suggested and hinted that 1.1359

June 9 , 1977 Tape 4041 PK - 3 if they wanted the project to continue that Procter and Redfern' _s Mr. Raffety be kicked off the job, because Met.ro was looking for fringe benefits, looking for hando{lts, looking for additional things that were not in the original contract, and the consulting engineer said they were not entitled to them, and they were not getting them. And so they got stubborn and contrary and Mr. A. B. Walsh pulled his contractor out of the community and left the community, left the tawn council and the people down in Pouch Cove high and dry the same as he did in Torbay.

And as a result of this, Sir, the people of these two communities should not be the ones to suffer, because the cost is going to be passed on whether it is in the form of a water and s~werage tax or in the form of a property tax or a service fee. Utimately the negligence :11.360

June 8, 1977 Tape No. 4042 }~- 1 ~fR. NEARY: and the incompetence of Hetro Engineering, Mr. A. B. ~\'alsh and his company,is goinp- to be passed on to the oeople and they are the ones ~vho are going to have to pay through the nose for his pulling out and leaving the communities high and dry. No doubt they are going to have to come back for additional money because they have had to use some of the funds, a good bit of it I believe - they have had to use $40,000 or $50,000 I think. ~. DINN: :But there is not necessarily you 1--..now going to ~e more money.

I mean it mi~ht be the contractor who is responsible and if he is he will oay. MR. NEARY: MR. DHlN: HR. r-..TEARY: It might be the contractor or the bond holder. Whoever. But there is going to be legal costs. I hone the minister is right. I hope that Metro will be forced to go back and finish the job or the bond holder. MR. DINN: If they are wrong. MR. NEARY: I do not think it makes much difference to the people as long - Well,it does, It is going to cause delays and inconvenience. People have had their fences destroyed. Their la~~s have been destroyed.

Their trees that have been set there for years and years, their landscaping has been destroyed and so there is going to be tremendous inconvenience and tremendous cost to the people no matter T.Yha t hanoens. But I hope that the minister is right that they will not be back lookin~ for more moLey because of an escalation in the cost of the pr9iect - AN BON. '1m1BER: R i~h t • ~. NEARY: - caused by the delays or the legal battles in the courts that may take place. I hope the minister is right. That is two projects, Sir, that I would like to hear a progress report on. The loans and guarantees are in place.

The work has ground to a halt because of the stubborness - I do not know what else you could call it of the contractor, in this case Metro Engineering, ~. A.B. Halsh, the gentleman whom we have heard so much about inside and outside 11361.

June 8, 1~77 Tape No. 4042 NM - 2 ~. NEARY: of this House over the past several weeks. Now we have a - MR. H. COLLINS: Those are tendered. They are not - "XR. NEARY: ~hat is what I said. They tendered and they got the contract,but Hr. Chairman, what the hon. gentleman does not realize, and maybe I am sus~icious by nature, that they bid low hoping that they would get fringe benefits, additional costs, that they would get cost - ~fR. DDlN: No way~ MR. T\TEARY: Oh yes, ~r. Chairman, because this is why they are not on the job. They are not on either one of these projects at the moment.

They were looking for more money and they argued that they had to do work that they were not supposed to do and they needed more money from the town councils and that is ~·rhy they nulled out. They could see they had bid too lm..r and the reason they bid low was they we~e hoping to come back to the administration with their hand out and the government v.rould bail them out. But the government - MR. DINN: They have got another thing coming there. MR. NEARY: Only time will tell, Mr. Chairman. lffi. DINN: That is right. ~.

NEARY: But in the meantime we have also this situation down in Placentia that I have spoken about so often w~ere we have practically,! believe,Sl million spent on putting in ~vater and sewerage.! believe it is in Southeast Placentia, is it? The south eastern part - HR. PECKFORD: You are talking about the se~veras;1;e system nmv, are you? HR. DINN: No. The sewerage system is right in the tmm. ~1R. NEA..RY: Right in the town itself? ~!R. DINN: Yes. HR. NEARY: ~>Jell anyway, the system is there but the houses are not hooked up. Here 'ire have another situation where Dart - MR. DINN: It does not work. 1.1.362

June 8, 1977 Tape No. 4042 NH - 3 MR. NEARY: It does net work and it will not work. I am told that the pipes ~ere smashed up when they were being put in the ground. MR. ~IR~fA.T\l': Order, please! ~ffi.. DINN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIP}fA!\T: A point of order. MR. DINN: I would love to be able to speak on these. The problem with two of them ~-fR. NEARY : You can have your opportunity. You can speak on them. ~'ffi. DI~TN: No. But the oroblen with bm of t:hPsP.

"1-fr, r.h:.:d-nn.::~n . . ' is that~ as I understand it. writs h.<iVP. hPPn ; !'ll=:llPi! in "P1 "'rPnt:i"' and in Torbay and therefore they are before the courts. I am just wondering if we are getting outside the area, although I would love to be able to dis~uss them. I am quite well aware of all three projects but two of them are, as I understand it, before the courts and ~vhether we should be discussing them in here or not is a very good question. MR. NEARY: I.Jell ,we are passing a Loan and Guarantee Act so MR. DINN: Yes,I know. MR. NEARY: - we have a right to get a proRress report. MR.

DH!N: I can give that. "t-IR. NEARY: \.Jell that is Hhat I am looking for, a progress reoort, an updating on what is going on. ~W,. CF~IF~PN ( ~ffi. YOlmG): Order, please! I feel it is not a point of order but it is more or less a point of eX?lanation~ If lvrits have been issued concerning this matter I would ask the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to refrain from discussing it if it is before the courts. ~1R. DINN: Pouch Cove is all right. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not auestioning Your Honour's ruling,but in my opinion, Sir, civil . ~ 1.1363

June 9, 1977 Tape 4043 EC- 1 I-!R. NEARY: matters you can discuss in this House. Mr. Chairman, we are passing a bill - "1R. CHAIR!:1k~: (!'1r. Young) Yes. MR. :-mARY: the minister is asking us to give $600,000 - NR. CHAIID1AN : I am informed that regardless it is before the courts and not to be discussed in the House. "XR. NEARY: Hell the trouble is, you see, Your Honour, I do not know whether they are before the courts or not and I do not believe Your Honour is aware these matters are before the courts. MR. CHAIRH.Al~ : Neither do I, but - lu~ HON. }!E1'1BER: The minister says they are.

The han. minister has indicated that they are. AN HON. :HEMBER: Yes. MR. NEARY: Well,that is what I am asking for~ an updating. I want a progres .. s report of what is happening in the case of the Placentia sewer system that is in place and not a house has been hooked up. And the minister is asking us to approve $600,000! I believe we have a right to know what is being done. Has the money been spent? Is there any holdback? ~~at is the situation concerning Placentia? These three especially I would like to know about. And then there ~vas the controversy in connection with the Burin Bay Inlet sewerage system.

There was some controversy about that three years ago and I believe the consulting engineers were hauled over the carpet. There was a big investigation into the extension of this project because the engineers apparently were taking the town council and the government to the cleaners. MR.. HICK}f.,AN: \.Jhere is this? MR. NEARY: In Burin Bay Inlet. MR. PECKFORD: These were DREE projects apart from the -provincial part. :11364

June 9, 1977 Tape 4043 EC - 2 1:-IR. NEARY: That is right. And then the Ninister of ~unicipal Affairs launched an internal investigation as a result of my probing and prodding on this matter; not only an investigation into consulting engineering fees as far as the Burin Inlet sewerage system was concerned but launched an investigation, period, into consulting engineering fees. Because a lot of the money, Mr.

Chairman, in these loansand guarantees,as Your Honour knows from the little job that was done over in Upper Island Cove~ as Your Honour knows a lot of the money in here in these loans and guarantees is for consulting engineering fees. A..11.d so it is about time that 1.re got a report now on this Burin sewerage system. And was the consulting engineer in actualfuct trying to extort more than he was entitled to from the town council? Because we are told, Mr.

Chairman, that bills were sent directly to the Department of Hunicipal Affairs "t-Then my han. friend was minister - the present i-1inister of Mines and Energy - were sent and approved by the department cvithout prior consultation or 'tvithout approval from the Town Council of Burin. We do not know whether it is true or not, and the minister is not nodding yes or no. I have a feeling myself that there was an element of truth in it. ~p" PECKFORD : No, I do not. That particular detail I am not familiar with right now.

I do know that the internal investigation "'as undertaken, because,you knmv, I instructed the people to do it. :\ft:er the full inv~stigation was done it could not be ascertained that there was any element of dishonesty or criminality involved with the consulting engineers or the contractors as far as I remember the situation" They were cleared of any -,.rron~doing. }ffi. NEARY: Okay, well then perhaps the minister might table the report in the House. HR. PECKFORD: minister for what. HR.

NEARY: ~Jell you 1vill have to ask the appropriate No, the report was not - or the internal investigation after I believe was broadened. It was not just restricted 1.1365

June 9, 1977 Tape 4043 EC - 3 HR. NEARY: to the :Burin sewerage system. Hy understanding from the questions that I put to the minister,and the answers I got from the minister 'tvhen the hon. gentleman was Hinister of l'Iunicipal Affairs and Housing, •:1as - HR. PECKFORD: We did an assessment MR. NEARY: - that they did an assessment on all consulting engineer projects MR. PECKFORD: Right. HR. NEARY: - and I believe the minister indicated at the time there would be a black list prepared. NR.

PECKFORD: No. but tJ:tat there wo_uld be a rating system compiled as engineers in the Department of Municipal Affairs saw the quality of the ~,rork done by the different engineering firms. MR. NEARY: SOME HON. M2IffiERS : MR. ~EARY: Hell, Sir, a rose by any other name! Oh, oh! Mr. Chairman, well I would like to know if the rating system is now in effect and working in connection with all these loans and guarantees that we have before us. And I do not see why the minister would hesitate in laying on the table of the House a copy of that assessment - ~~ RON. ME11BER: (Inaudible) be made public. "MR.

NEARY: of the consulting engineering firms in this Province in order of priority - who will get the 'tvork and vJho does not get the 'tvork and the justification for it. Because, Mr. Chairman, I feel for the minister's own protection that this should be done because there may be firms black-listed unknowingly, unwittingly. The minister may :11366

June 9, 1977 Tape 4044 PK - 1 !1r. Neary: have a list in his department of priorities giving a certain firm, a very low priority for example. MR. H. COLLINS: But those firrs themselves are engaged by the town councils. MR. PECKFORD: Yes. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman for Gander (Mr. H. Collins) must think that I am naive and stunned. MR. PECKFORD: No,a municipality can insist upon - MR. NEARY: I spent fourteen years on a town council, I spent three and a half years a minister, and I have got some idea - AN RON. MEMBER: It is up to the town council. ' MR.

NEARY: -I have got some idea how these things are done. MR. PECKFORD: No,but you are wrong. The situation is if a munici?ality wishes a certain consulting engineering firm the government has no alternative but to - HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the han. minister must think I am awfully, awfully gullible. The recommendation, nine chances out of ten- well.,not nine chances·, 100 per cent of the cases the recommendation comes from the Department of Municipal Affairs. MR. PECKFORD: No. MR.