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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 39th Parliament official rePort of Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari Soff, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Monday, May 9, 2011 Afternoon Sitting Volume 21, Number 4

Pro Vince of britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l.

Point, obc Third Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker of the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil .............................................................................................................. h on. c hristy c lark Deputy Premier and Minister of finance ............................................................................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation ...........................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of a dvanced e ducation .................................................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Minister of a griculture ........................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Don Mcr ae a ttorney General ........................................................................................................................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc Minister of c hildren and f amily Development ................................................................................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of e ducation .........................................................................................................................................................h on.

George a bbott Minister of energy and Mines and Minister r esponsible for h ousing.........................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of environment ....................................................................................................................................................h on. Dr. t erry l ake Minister of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations......................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson Minister of h ealth .................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of Jobs, t ourism and innovation ................................................................................................................................... h on. Pat bell Minister of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government .............................................................................. h on.

Stephanie c adieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond Minister of Social Development and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism ............................................................ h on. h arry bloy Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ................................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ......................................................................................................................................................a drian Dix Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker ..................................................................................................................................................................Dawn black Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole ...................................................................................................................................Douglas h orne c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ............................................................................................................... craig h.

James (on leave) c lerk a ssistant and a cting c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................. k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary l enz

alP habetical liS t of MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, bill (l) .............................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, iain (l) .............................................................. Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h on. h arry (l) ............................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-fleetwood c adieux, h on. Stephanie (l) ................................................Surrey-Panorama c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c handra h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ................................Vancouver–West end c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, Murray (l) ..............................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ........................................... f ort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) ..............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on. Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington f alcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale f arnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake f oster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee f raser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, c olin (l) ............................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, k ash (l) ................................................................ Vancouver-fraserview h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de f uca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, kevin (l) ............................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, h on. Dr. t erry (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................f raser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (l) ......................................... Vancouver-fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on. Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–f alse creek Mcr ae, h on.

Don (l) ................................................................... c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry, Qc (l) ....................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (ind.) .....................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, ben (l) ..................................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, Dr. Moira (l) ......................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon.

Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant ...............................................................................Vancouver–Point Grey liS t of MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .......................................................................r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ......................................................h on.

Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott f raser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ...................................................................h on. h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope .......................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley...........................................................................h on. Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis f ort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman f raser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de f uca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on.

Dr. t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ...................................................... k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast ....................................................................................bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike f arnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam ...................................................................... iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands .....................................................

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine ........................................................................................Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Surrey-fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................ h on.

Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ........................................................................... Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-fairview ................................................ Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–f alse creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-fraserview ........................................................................k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara .................................................................Dr.

Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ..........................................Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ...............................................................................Vacant Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................................... c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ...............................................Spencer c handra h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric f oster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna .............................................................................ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 48; n ew Democratic 34; independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS Monday, May 9, 2011 a fternoon Sitting Page Routine Business introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 6759 t ributes ..................................................................................................................................................................................... 6759 baraladei Daniel igali G. h ogg introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 6759 Statements (Standing order 25b) ......................................................................................................................................... 6759 c ancer survivor park in r ichmond l. r eid Gathering o ur Voices aboriginal youth conference G. c oons t raffic on lakes and rivers and traffic on highway 5a in k amloops–South Thompson area k . k rueger Jane Jacobs and urban planning l.

Popha m Social entrepreneurs G. h ogg f amily caregivers c. t revena oral Questions ......................................................................................................................................................................... 6762 f unding for parks system a. Di x h on. t . l ake r . flemin g M. Sather School district carbon-neutral requirements and resource industry emissions reduction b. r alston h on. t . l ake r . a ustin b. Simpson h on. G. a bbott Post-secondary education funding and Vancouver island u niversity M. Mungall h on. n.

Y amamoto Orders of the Day c ommittee of the Whole h ouse ............................................................................................................................................ 6766 bill 5 — n ew West Partnership trade a greement implementation a ct J. kwan h on. P . bell M. Sather G. Gentner V . huntington b. Simpson r eport and Third r eading of bills ......................................................................................................................................... 6785 bill 5 — n ew West Partnership trade a greement implementation a ct

Second r eading of bills .......................................................................................................................................................... 6785 bill 6 — civil f orfeiture a mendment a ct, 2011 h on. S. bond k. c orrigan J. van Dongen l. k rog D. h ayer Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 6796 e stimates: Ministry of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government (continued) D. r outley h on.

S. c adieux r . c houhan M. e lmore S. f raser D. Donaldson k. c onroy n. Simon s G. Gentner

6759 MonD a Y , MaY 9, 2011 The h ouse met at 1:33 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Introductions by Members L. Krog: i am delighted to introduce two guests with us today. one is n elson a llen. h e's a trustee from school district 68 who has been here several times before, but he is here today more in his capacity as a r otarian and a host. a ccompanying him is a young student, a r otary exchange student, all the way from c olombia, here to ob- serve politics in the making. h e has political ambitions, i'm told. i hope we don't put him off by the performance in question period.

Would the h ouse please welcome k evin h artmann c ortez from c olombia. Tributes baralaD ei Daniel iGali G.

Hogg: in 1994 a young, community-minded wrest- ler came to Victoria to compete in the commonwealth Games, and he stayed. h e became a c anadian citizen in 1998, and he won an o lympic gold medal for c anada in 2000. on a pril 26 of this year, after three months of rigor- ous campaigning in a riding of 34 villages and 60,000 people, he was elected to the bayelsa State a ssembly of n igeria. h e will be sworn into office on June 3. i ask this assembly to extend its congratulations and best wishes to a wonderful international citizen, baraladei Daniel igali. Introductions by Members L.

Reid: t oday in the gallery for the first time is the newest employee of the Premier's correspondence branch, Jasmine bains. She's with h olly o aken, and they are looking forward to seeing the events unfold from now until the end of question period. l et's make Jasmine and h olly both feel very welcome. [1335] D.

Routley: i would like to expand on my colleague's introduction of Mr. n elson a llen from n anaimo. i think the h ouse should know just how dedicated n elson has been to the city of n anaimo and to education in this province. h e is the former chair of the board of n anaimo school district and current vice-chair. h e has served two terms on the n anaimo city council. h e was a n anaimo regional district representative. h e was on the n anaimo parks and recreation commit - tee. h e's been a chair of practically every committee in the school board. h e was a bctf local president. h e was involved in their children's committee for, i think, five years. n elson a llen has given great service to education in our province and to the city of n anaimo. i would like to have this h ouse help me thank him for that dedi - cated service.

Hon. N. Y amamoto: i'd like to introduce a guest in the h ouse today. h is name is brian Smith. h e's from the beautiful community of h alfmoon bay on the Sunshine c oast. Would the house please make him welcome. M. Dalton: in the gallery today i have three special guests. first of all, my lovely wife, Marlene. i appreciate all her love and support for these many years — 26 years and counting. a lso, Gloria bodnarchuk, who is a retired teacher i met for the first time today, from e dmonton, a lberta. She has come along with l ynn Gendron. l ynn is a very special person to me. She was my grade 4 teacher.

She taught me in h olberg, british c olumbia, which is up by north Vancouver island. She taught me all that i know, and she said: "Marc, you can do anything." i remember those words. "Y ou can be Prime Minister one day if you want." i took that to heart. Well, i'm not on Parliament h ill, but i am here in elected office. i appreci- ate her encouragement and inspiration, and i'm glad she could be here today. Would the house please make them feel welcome. G. Hogg: We are joined in the gallery today by the ambassadors from the city of White r ock. i enjoyed having a lively conversation and lunch with them to - day.

They are c hloe Woodin, f reda Zhang, Stephanie c harleton, k ira a pted t ilcock, k atie f ownes and two ambassadors who are a little more mature and have been ambassadors for the city for a long time, their chaper - ones, Debbie Ward and Donna beaudry. Would the h ouse please make them most welcome. R. Sultan: in the galleries today we have a young lady whom i first got to know at about age three, the daughter of a neighbour. She's now doing her best for the cause in the Premier's office, correspondence section. Would you please welcome h olly o aken.

Statements (Standing Order 25B) cancer Sur ViVor Park in richM onD L. Reid: i'd like to dedicate my remarks today to some- one i miss each day. h er name is k athie h atlen. c ancer survivors parks — because what's outside can help heal what's inside. There are currently 22 cancer

british c olumbia Debates6760 Monday, May 9, 2011 survivors parks in n orth a merica, a legacy created by r ichard and a nnette bloch and their foundation. The r ichard and a nnette bloch c ancer Survivors Park in o ttawa is a public park offering green space for reflec- tion, sculptures, a healing garden with stones of hope, motivation and so much more.

This cancer survivors park is the second of its kind in c anada and will offer a place of serenity and inspiration to cancer patients and survivors, their friends and family. i am working for the creation of a third such park in r ichmond, british c olumbia. e ach park is unique, though they maintain three com- mon elements. in each park there's a sculpture called Cancer: There Is Hope , created by the renowned Mexican sculptor Victor Salmones.

The piece features eight life- sized figures passing through a maze depicting cancer treatments and successes. a positive mental attitude walk is an area where vis - itors can stroll through, meditate and read through 14 plaques which feature inspirational words and sugges - tions inspired by r ichard bloch. a road to recovery, with seven plaques explaining what cancer is and basic actions to assist in recovery, is a place of peace and re - flection. i hope each of you will have the opportunity one day to visit. Gatherin G our Voice S abori Ginal Youth conference G.

Coons: What do you get when you have 1,200 ab - original youth descend on your community? Y ou have four days of high energy and interactive workshops, and four days of sharing, networking and meeting new friends.

March 21 to 24 was the ninth annual Gathering o ur Voices c onference held on t simshian traditional territory in Prince r upert. [1340] it was an inspiring four-day event with the theme "a vision of our future." o ver 50 unique, imaginative and fun workshops were offered in six venues spread throughout the community, exploring the breadth and potential of aboriginal health, language, culture, the environment, employment, education, sports and re - creation.

Partnering to make this happen were the b.c. a ssociation of a boriginal f riendship c entres' Provincial a boriginal Y outh c ouncil and the Prince r upert f riendship h ouse. i solicited comments from the f riendship h ouse youth hub, and this is their perspective: "This youth conference had countless amazing mo - tivational speakers such as the h on. Steven Point and Dakota brant, Miss indian World 2010.

The conference allowed not only the youth but everyone involved the opportunity to make lasting friendships. e veryone was so positive, and this inspired youth to be the best they could be." "one of the highlights of the week was the 'elders Don't bite' workshop, bringing youth and elders together in a safe and positive environment where you weren't afraid to share stories and have a conversation. The wisdom of the elders sharing with youth is so important for us to stay grounded in everyday life and in our futures." "The amount of talent woven throughout the entire conference is enough to blow you away.

Jb, the first l ady from the n uxalk and c ayuga nations, is an inspiring young role model spreading the words of empowerment and the perspective of urban indigenous women in c anada. She really inspires you to be proud of who you are." "it was really great to see so many people come together, people with similar cultural beliefs. We all look forward to the conference next year where aboriginal youth will gather our voices and be a force to reckon with." traffic on lakeS anD riVerS anD traffic on hi GhW a Y 5a in ka Mloo PS–South tho MPSon ar ea K.

Krueger: My constituency is the home of many famous people. one of the most famous is Sen. n ancy Greene r aine, c anada's woman of the century. n ancy said to me one day that government really ought to think about a quiet waters designation. Personal watercraft are a lot of fun, but they shouldn't be everywhere. There are a couple of locations in my constituency that are notable as examples of how right she is. The South Thompson r iver, for example, is the route that the a dams r iver sockeye run takes — a very famous icon of british c olumbia.

There's a problem with silta - tion from people wakeboarding and speedboats using the waterway, a problem with quiet enjoyment of their prop- erties for people who live along the river. a lso, in the valley of scenic lakes which houses h ighway 5a and feeds n icola lake there is severe competition between the speedboats and water-skiing and fishing lakes. So it's an issue i'd like to put on the radar of everybody in the house. h ighway 5a itself has another challenging issue. t ruckers like to use it because it is relatively flat.

They burn less fuel, many of them say it's fun to drive, and they'd rather use it than the c oquihalla. Some of these truckers are rogues. They speed, they take chances, they flop their trucks, and they do things like tailgating local ranchers and local farmers and tourists. in one case a trucker actually chased a rancher up her driveway and rebuked her for having slowed him down because she had to make a right turn into her driveway. it left her quite shaken. Speaking of shaken, i visited a rancher in her home, and the trucks were making the house shake every minute or so as they drove by.

Many of them travel too fast. There's a constant risk and threat of injuries, fatalities and pollution of the waterway. We've spent a lot of money trying to make sure that these things don't happen. in the meantime, there's a

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 9, 2011 6761 perfectly acceptable alternate route that's already built, already paid for, and that's the c oquihalla h ighway. i'd like the h ouse to pay close attention to that risk. Jane JacobS anD urban Plannin G L.

Popham: i'm grateful today to have the oppor - tunity to stand and honour a woman who has been an inspiration to me since studying urban geography at the u niversity of british c olumbia in the early 1990s. a pril 25 marked the day that Jane Jacobs passed away five years ago. a t age 89 she left us with a lifetime of contributions in the form of books like The Death and Life of Great American Cities, historical protests like the battle with n ew Y ork city developer r obert Moses, incredible interviews with anybody who would lis - ten and reflections that changed the way we can think about our cities. f or over half a century, Jane Jacobs championed our urban centres as places of human habitat which bring together people in adequate numbers to develop strong, local economies, rich culture and connected commun - ities.

She warned us of the necessity of protecting the social capital of the city, that complicated web of human relationships built up over time that provides mutual support in time of need, ensures the safety of the streets and fosters a sense of civic responsibility. [1345] Jane Jacobs's observations about the way our cities work and don't work revolutionized the urban plan - ning profession and engaged communities in ways that had never happened before. because of Jane, ideas once considered inconvenient and quaint, like mixed-use development, short blocks, increased density, are now, thankfully, being seen more commonly in new develop- ments around the province.

We know that progressive developers and planners are asking themselves what Jane Jacobs would do before making critical decisions that shape communities forever. This is not the case everywhere, and when we miss opportunities to integrate Jane's vision, we miss the op - portunity to improve our quality of life. When we design our urban centres for cars instead of people, we know that Jane Jacobs would have been troubled. Jane Jacobs wasn't very tall, but she was brave. She showed us that all great things come in small packages, and she also showed us that so does dynamite. Social entreP reneurS G.

Hogg: Through recorded history, families, com - munities and societies have looked after each other, have cared for each other and have provided support and so - cial programs for each other. The primary providers of this care and this support have been family and friends, philanthropists and governments. The development of physical capital, of physical wealth, has been the purview of the marketplace, of business.

There has been little sharing of the strategies between these two domains. in today's international climate of fiscal challenges, funding has become more challenging, be it for social determinants of health or for social programs more gen- erally. a s societies we continue to face many intractable social challenges. Worldwide, in Denmark, in england, in the u nited States, in a ustralia, in n ew Zealand, and even in c anada, social entrepreneurs are finding new ways to approach these challenges, finding sustainable methods for fund - ing social programs.

Some of the world's leaders in social innovation live right here in british c olumbia. The l ower Mainland was recently called by the Ottawa Citizen: "The Silicon Valley of social innovation in c anada." Many new models have been designed to ensure the development of sustainable social networks and pro - grams. increasingly, the world's leading social providers and service providers are melding marketplace practices with social programs to maximize the efficiency and ef - fectiveness of their impact. The social entrepreneurs of british c olumbia are world leaders.

They provide services, and the people of our province are the beneficiaries. They need and de - serve our support and our thanks. faMil Y careGiVerS C. Trevena: Juggling work, children, parents, house - work, driving to hockey games — life is an extreme balance for many people, which is why this week we should stop, take a breath and notice that it's f amily c aregiver Week from May 7 through to May 13. n ot surprisingly, women make up the majority of caregivers, and many women are in what is so aptly de - scribed as the sandwich generation, looking after the children and caring for aging parents.

Y ou may be pro- viding care for your spouse or partner or providing care for another adult family member or friend. The person you're caring for can be elderly, in poor health or dis - abled and be living in his or her own home, with you or in a care facility. in some instances, it may be a child giv- ing care for its disabled or sick parent. c aregivers are, of course, unpaid. l ooking after family, you don't usually get paid. in fact, on aver - age it costs people as much as $300 a month, and it takes hours out of the day, leaving families stressed and overworked.

So one of the messages of this week is for people to get a better understanding of caregiving and what care - givers need. Much of what is needed is support — peer support, community support, family support. n ot al - ways government support, but that too is needed from time to time.

british c olumbia Debates6762 Monday, May 9, 2011 c aregivers need information, whether it's the progress of a disease or access to services. h aving information means they can make informed decisions and get the right support. organizations who work with caregivers providing supports are using the week to hold workshops on dif - ferent aspects of caregiving.

They're also using the week to help people understand that this is part of our soci - ety, that help is there and that caregivers — although they often may feel left alone to tackle problems they never thought they would face, helping people they have either loved or simply feel obliged to look after — are not alone. [1350] There is a network, there is help, and they do not have to be silent, unsung heroes of our homes. Oral Questions fun Din G for Park S SYSte M A. Dix: My question is to the Minister of environment. l et me first congratulate him on his new appointment.

This year british c olumbians should be celebrating the 100th anniversary of our provincial park system. but instead of celebrating, they're having to endure the effects of a decade of b.c. l iberal neglect. t oday freedom-of-information documents show how park rangers are being deprived of even the most basic re - sources they need to do their job. My question to the Minister of environment is sim - ple. in light of the foi information that presumably he's now read today, does he think b.c. park rangers have adequate resources to preserve and oversee b.c.'s park system? Hon. T.

Lake: i would like to thank the member for pointing out to everyone that we are celebrating 100 years of b.c. Parks. Many british c olumbians may not realize that british c olumbia has the third-largest park system in all of n orth a merica. We have 13.6 mil- lion hectares in parks and protected areas in british c olumbia — almost 14 percent of our entire area in parks and protected areas.

There are 97 seasonal rangers that work at the busiest times of the year in our parks across the province. but not only that, over 700 employees of park facilities oper- ators are on the ground every single day assisting visitors through our wonderful parks system here in b.c. Mr. Speaker: The l eader of the o pposition has a supplemental. A. Dix: i appreciate the minister's kind comments about the nDP's record on parks. The b.c. l iberal rec- ord — less edifying. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. A. Dix: l ess edifying. l et's face it.

They've cut 60 per- cent of full-time park rangers — 60 percent cut; 25 percent cut in funding; 13 percent cut in park visits by the public. The public has been denied access to our parks. The park rangers themselves see what's going on. The minister talks about them.

They see the damage being done. l et's take Garibaldi l ake as an example. f our rangers used to monitor and protect the area. a s of summer 2009 that was reduced to one. a ccording to Parks staff — the minister's staff — this has caused "major issues with garbage removal, illegal dogs, illegal camping, damage to the park." My question to the minister is simple. Does he think this kind of decline is acceptable? Hon. T.

Lake: o ver the last ten years we have added 1.9 million hectares to parks and protected areas of b.c. in fact, over the last five years $107 million in ac - quisitions and improving park infrastructure…. This government knows that british c olumbians appreciate their b.c. parks, and in fact, we have an 80 percent ap - proval rate with visitors to b.c. parks. The people of british c olumbia love b.c. parks. They're happy with b.c. parks. We'll continue to im - prove b.c. parks as we celebrate 100 years. Mr. Speaker: The l eader of the o pposition has a fur- ther supplemental. [1355] A.

Dix: Parks staff, who the minister apparently doesn't want to listen to, have made the situation very clear. There's no money to clear trails, no money for garbage removal, no money for screwing hinges to keep bridges in basic safe condition, no money for the vehicles that rangers need to respond to emergencies in the back country. interjection. A. Dix: i know it's hilarious to the minister from k amloops — not the minister, the member from k amloops. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Member, just take your seat for a second. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. c ontinue, Member.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 9, 2011 6763 A. Dix: These are serious cuts to b.c.'s park system, and they have a real impact. The minister had said out - side — and i'm quoting him — that there's no money tree — right? Well, what was there money for? Well, anyone watch- ing the c anucks game on Saturday night knows there's adequate money for the government to do t V ads that were self-congratulatory — i know there's a by-election — t V ads celebrating b.c. parks.

So why is there money in the government's ad budgets to celebrate b.c. parks but no money in the government's budget for properly funded, safe parks? Hon. T. Lake: Well, i find it amazing that the oppos - ition member would say that we shouldn't be celebrating b.c. Parks 100 and telling all of british c olumbians about Parks 100. The member opposite says that people aren't going to b.c. parks. Well, in fact they are — an increase of 19 percent over the last six years. We want more and more people to go to b.c. parks.

We just removed parking fees so that families can enjoy the day use of b.c. parks, and $500,000 into a commun - ity enhancement fund, and now we are celebrating b.c. parks, telling all the british c olumbians to go and have a great time this summer. Visit a b.c. park near you. R. Fleming: The minister has just asked us to join with him in celebrating parks after ten years of neglect. The state of b.c . parks, revealed through freedom-of-information documents — hundreds of pages; i recommend he reads them — shows that the state of british c olumbia parks has never been worse than it is today.

The documents reveal that basic ranger patrols don't even cover b.c. parks during the busiest times of the year. We've got a long weekend coming up on May long weekend, and that's going to be the same situation. They show that trails have overgrown across british c olumbia in our parks facilities, vandalism has increased, the po - tential for human injury has risen. These are all staff concerns documented in correspondence between staff, back and forth on e-mail. The potential for environ - mental damage has increased in b.c. parks.

My question is to the e nvironment Minister. instead of cute announcements about parking meters, does he think the ongoing budget cuts are an appropriate way to celebrate the 100th anniversary of b.c . Parks in our province? Hon. T. Lake: i'm amazed the nDP would think that removing parking fees is a bad thing to do — amazing. Did i mention the 80 percent approval rating of those people who visit b.c. parks — 14 percent…? british c olumbia has an amazing level of biodiversity — the last bastion of real biodiversity in n orth a merica.

We use our parks and protected areas to make sure that that biodiversity remains. That's an area the size of n ova Scotia, n ew brunswick and P .e.i. combined — the third- largest park system in the world. [1400] People over on this side of the h ouse celebrate our park system. We're celebrating 100 years, and we're proud of the men and women who support that park system. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. R.

Fleming: The minister refers to the significant an - nouncement around parking meters. i'm glad that the new Premier has finally got around to cleaning up a mess that she was warned against when she was Deputy Premier on t reasury board — that parking meters in parks would be a disaster. They were. There are three million less visitors to b.c . parks now than there were when she put them in, and it's about time she cleaned up her mess. but that's not the only problem in b.c .'s parks, and the minister knows it.

We're the only jurisdiction in n orth a merica other than Mississippi that doesn't have interpretive services. We expected to hear something about that. We had an a uditor General report in 2010, just six months ago, that said that 75 percent of british c olumbia's parks don't even have a management plan in place. We have species at risk in our parks that haven't even been given an inventory. We have dozens of parks that are closed to families. We have seasonal trails that are being closed, and we get an announcement about parking meters.

Well, my question to the minister was about how he's going to restore trust and confidence in his min - istry amongst park rangers and conservation officers in particular. it's gotten so bad in british c olumbia that today you go to a tackle and bait shop, and what do you see there? a coffee can asking for donations for their gas money. They can't even do their jobs in british c olumbia today. So the question to the minister is: will his government actually restore the funding to b.c.

Parks that they have cut year after year for ten years, so that basic human and safety issues, hygiene, aren't even considered problems in b.c. parks? Will he do that in 2011, the 100th birth - day of b.c. Parks? interjections. Mr. Speaker: Go ahead, Minister. Hon. T. Lake: i was doing so well. [l aughter.] This year we expect over 20 million people to visit british c olumbia parks — 20 million people. british c olumbia parks represent an enormous opportunity for british c olumbia families to enjoy a very affordable vacation, for british c olumbia to promote tourism all over the world.

british c olumbia Debates6764 Monday, May 9, 2011 We have 97 park rangers doing a fantastic job dur - ing the busy summer season, with over 700 park facility employees on the ground ensuring that our visitors are looked after. The third-largest park system in all of n orth a merica. We're celebrating, on this side of the h ouse, 100 years of great parks in b.c. M. Sather: Well, this minister may be new, but he's certainly not doing so well on this parks file. i mean, he should look around a little more. Go and have a look at Golden e ars Park, the most well-used park in this prov- ince.

The toilets are overflowing, the trails are closed, and the park is closed for half the year. it never used to be that way until this b.c. government came in with their mismanagement of our parks. l ooking at Garibaldi Park and the freedom-of- information document, this is what park staff had to say: "There are several impacts on Garibaldi Park and its visitors that are a direct result of lower ranger staffing levels.

There are major issues with garbage removal, il - legal camping and damage to the park." is the minister going to stand up again and defend the declining british c olumbia parks, or is he going to take responsibility, apologize to the people of british c olumbia and fix the problem? Hon. T. Lake: Since 2004 the visitations to b.c. parks have increased over 9 percent — 19.5 million people.

We expect over 20 million this year to visit parks like Golden e ars, where i remember going with my family when my kids were young and enjoyed the experience there, as families all over british c olumbia are enjoying their experience in b.c. parks. [1405] Well-managed, well-run b.c. parks celebrating 100 years. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M.

Sather: Well, that's a sad indictment of this gov - ernment if the minister thinks that our parks are being well run. a gain from the freedom of information, this is from the b.c. staff: "We did have two of four outhouses closed at Garibaldi l ake campground this season. Those toilets are full and require new holes to be dug and toi - lets moved. We were not able to do this project this past season due to staffing levels." t o the minister again: how are british c olumbians sup- posed to enjoy the 100th anniversary of parks when we can't even get basic facilities like bathrooms in them? Hon. T.

Lake: Well, i think lots of families will enjoy b.c. park visits this year — the day use parks par - ticularly, where they won't have to pay any more for parking. c ommunity groups will also be able to apply for community-enhanced fund money — up to $500,000 around the province for important projects that they think are important for their parks. We have wonderful parks around the whole province. Wells Gray Park in my riding, where visitors from all around the world come to visit. a n 80 percent approval rating from visitors — over 20 million this year. We have a first-class park system.

We're protecting biodiversity. We're protecting natural values. We'll continue to do that over on this side of the h ouse. School DiStrict carbon -neutral re Quire Ment S an D re Source in Du Str Y e MiSSion S re Duction B. Ralston: enc ana's c abin gas plant, recently ap - proved by the b.c. l iberal government, will produce over two million tonnes of greenhouse gases this year. This single project will increase b.c.'s total carbon emis - sions by more than 3 percent over 2006 levels. School districts are forced to pay for their carbon emissions.

That money is taken out of classrooms and sent to companies like enc ana, who pay nothing for their industrial emissions. My question is to the Minister of finance. Does he think that the b.c. l iberal law forcing cash-strapped school districts to send scarce classroom dollars to energy companies like enc ana is right? interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. T.

Lake: i know that children around the prov - ince understand the importance of climate action, taking action to preserve our environment. i'm glad the nDP finally know what the children around the province have always known — that this planet is worth protecting. c arbon neutrality is a huge part of that. o ur public sector is committed to being carbon-neutral, and offsets are a big part of that. i'd like to quote the mem- ber for Juan de f uca, who says: "i have no problem with carbon offsets — none whatsoever. i think that is a useful way for individuals, corporations, companies to do what they can to offset their emissions that they may…have." i think that's a great quote.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B. Ralston: i'm sure children in classrooms under - stand better than this minister the importance and the ridiculousness of this particular law. Michael Mc e voy, the president of the b.c. School t rustees a ssociation, has pointed out that the b.c . l iberal law that takes money from classrooms and sends it to companies like enc ana is "a scheme that doesn't make any sense."

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 9, 2011 6765 Why, as Mr. Mcevoy asked, are these education dollars being sent to polluters like enc ana instead of invested in school districts to finance projects that will actually reduce emissions? Hon. T. Lake: Well, the fact is that the cost for school districts to become carbon-neutral for 2010 was about $5 million.

They've received five times that amount over the last three years to reduce their energy use, to allow them to meet their carbon offset opportunities. [1410] n ot only that, but it's amazing that the opposition would say that companies like e nc ana are somehow bad for us as british c olumbians, when in fact they're the ones that are providing money for schools, for hos - pitals and for b.c. parks. Where does the money come from? R.

Austin: e ven a child could understand we don't sack a teacher to help a polluter. e ven a child can fig - ure that out. l ast year the b.c. l iberal law forcing cash-strapped school districts to send money to big polluters like enc ana stripped up to $6 million from classrooms. My question is to the e ducation Minister. Does he really think that the district should be financing big pol- luters like enc ana at a time when they are struggling to find resources for classrooms? Hon. T.

Lake: Well, the fact is that resource revenue in this province supports schools, supports hospitals and supports b.c. parks. i know that the opposition members opposed the carbon tax. They've reversed their position on that. it sounds to me like they're against carbon neutrality in terms of government operations. We are for carbon neutrality. We are the first government in all of n orth a merica to be carbon-neutral, something the children of this province can be, rightly, very proud of. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. R.

Austin: School districts are excited about the opportunity to shrink their carbon emissions. Y et in - stead of providing them the means to do so, the b.c . l iberals are financing e nc ana, using money cut from classrooms. a gain, my question is to the e ducation Minister. When will he stand up for districts and end the prac - tice of sending classroom dollars to gas companies like enc ana? Hon. T. Lake: Well, the members opposite voted against cap-and-trade legislation, they voted against the carbon tax, and they voted against clean energy projects. So i'm not surprised they're against carbon neutrality.

The fact is that funding for education has gone up every single year, despite what the member oppos - ite claims. That financial commitment to education on the part of the government on this side of the h ouse is funded in large part by the resource industries of this province who are making steps to reduce their carbon footprint in a way that makes sense. in fact, the goals are very well aligned with leadership — something that member opposite wouldn't understand. Mr. Speaker: Member for cariboo north. [a pplause.] B. Simpson: Very gracious of both sides to recognize me standing — some, anyway.

The issue here is not about what is trying to be accom- plished. The issue is about how. a s a result of budget constraints in school district 27, big l ake School will have to put eight grades in one classroom four days a week. That includes three full-day kindergarten stu - dents and special needs students. Y et school district 27 must transfer $87,000, which is supposed to be going to classrooms, to the Pacific c arbon t rust to go to enc ana, cement factories and hotels.

My question to the Minister of e ducation…. it looks like he's wanting to leap at it. is this the fairest way to achieve carbon neutrality in this province and the pub - lic sector? is it fair? [1415] Hon. G.

Abbott: i appreciate the question from the independent nDP member on this important issue. it is important to note, i think, that…. a t least up until recently i understood that the nDP was opposed to the carbon tax, opposed to cap-and-trade and generally opposed to all of the climate change legislation and in - itiative that the government had undertaken. i thought i heard from the now l eader of the o pposition and, indeed, some of the other remarkably capable candidates for that position that the nDP had moved to a different position with respect to carbon tax and with respect to climate change, that they were now going to be embracing the commitment, the initiative, the drive of this government to fight climate change.

Y et today i hear some recidivism with respect to that. it ap- pears that already, before they had even fully embraced it, their enthusiasm is beginning to flag. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B. Simpson: it's unfortunate that this kind of rhetoric occurs here, rather than dealing with the substance of the issues. This is a patently unfair structure to do what is a laudable outcome. The school districts would love to be able to achieve carbon neutrality. We would love to see e nc ana and others be able to be supported to get their greenhouse gas emissions down. That's not the issue.

british c olumbia Debates6766 Monday, May 9, 2011 The issue is whether or not classrooms, health author- ities, universities ought to be the ones that bear the burden of the private sector's ability to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. School districts would love to become carbon- neutral, with the support of this government as well. So my question, again, to the minister…. if he's talk - ing to the people in his ministry, he knows that they're very upset about this. Municipalities are allowed to self- fund or buy carbon offsets.

Wouldn't it make more sense if schools and other public agencies would be allowed to self-fund projects first — to get their emissions down, get cost efficiencies, get cost reductions — and then use the extra to pay to the trust, if there's extra? Would the minister please comment on whether a fair deal could be given to school districts as well? Hon. G. Abbott: i first should note that overall fund - ing for education in this province has never been higher. in fact, it is up 41 percent, from $4.1 billion to $5.8 bil - lion, over the ten years that we have been in government.

That is a huge increase. f urther, this member — this so-called independent nDP member — makes, i think, a very specious con - nection between carbon offsets and enc ana. That is a false connection. it is entirely specious. These members, this opposition, this nDP had no commitment to fight - ing climate change. They have no commitment. if they have a commitment, they would step up and they would join the students across this province in em- bracing the fight against climate change.

They wouldn't turn around and at the first opportunity say: "oh, school districts don't need to be a part of fighting climate change. They should be exempt." The students of this province would very much disagree. Po St -Secon Dar Y e Ducation fun Din G an D Vancou Ver iSlan D uni Ver Sit Y M. Mungall: Post-secondary institutions are faced with rising enrolments, but funding just hasn't kept pace.

Vancouver island u niversity had to make significant budget cuts this year because the b.c. l iberals refused to back up their rhetoric on post-secondary education with sufficient funding. but last week the minister in - sisted to the media that everything at Viu is just fine and that they should just make do. [1420] Does the minister have any better plan to address b.c.'s post-secondary future than contradicting schools and telling students to drink less coffee? Hon. N.

Y amamoto: ensuring that our students have access to the best-quality post-secondary education in this country is a priority for this government.

We have made record investments in post-secondary education in the last ten years. i'll just give you some of these numbers: $21.8 billion — that's the amount of money that we've invested in post- secondary education in b.c. since 2001; 56 percent — that is the increase in annual funding for universities since 2001; $1.9 billion — that is the annual funding that we are providing to the post-secondary sector in b.c. this year. [end of question period.] Orders of the Day Hon. R.

Coleman: in this h ouse we will be doing com- mittee stage of bill 5, intituled the n ew West Partnership t rade a greement implementation a ct, and in c ommittee a we will be doing the estimates of the Ministry of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government. Committee of the Whole House bi ll 5 — ne W We St Partner Shi P traD e a GreeMent iMP leMentation a ct The h ouse in c ommittee of the Whole (Section

b) on bill 5; l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:25 p.m. on

section 1. J. Kwan: Question 1 of bill 5, the n ew West Partner- ship t rade a greement implementation a ct, deals with the definition. in the definition, of course, it brings for - ward the term "a greement," which refers to the new west partnership trade agreement itself. i'm wondering if the minister, first of all, could tell us: in this agreement, what kind of consultation work did the ministry do in getting the agreement to the stage where we're at now? Hon. P .

Bell: This agreement is largely similar to the tilMa agreement, and of course there were extensive consultations that took place during that process. h owever, that said, there were further consultations on this particular agreement, not to the depth that was done during tilMa, because that would have been re - petitive, but with organizations such as the cfib , the b.c. business c ouncil, chambers of commerce, Vancouver board of t rade — those sorts of groups, different indus - try associations.

The consultation process was lighter than it was under tilMa, reflecting the fact that this agreement is much the same as the tilMa agreement, adding Saskatchewan. J. Kwan: The minister said that it's lighter than tilMa. n ow let me ask the minister this: was this brought to the attention of ubcM, for example? Did they comment on it, and if so, what did they say?

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 9, 2011 6767 Hon. P . Bell: i should just identify that i am joined by several officials here: my exec director, Don White; Guy Gensey, who is responsible for the bulk of the consulta - tion work that went on; as well as r ussell Getz, who is with the a ttorney General's ministry. ubc M consultations took place at an officials level. a gain, the thinking was that this work was done largely during the til Ma negotiations. but at an officials level, yes. J.

Kwan: i think the minister said the "officials level." That would be with staff — is that correct? a nd what was that exchange? Hon. P . Bell: The discussion was at an officials level or a staff level, if you will, and it was an ongoing discussion through the process. J. Kwan: c ould the minister enlighten us as to: what concerns did they bring to the table? Hon. P . Bell: There were primarily two issues that came up, although there were some other kinds of re - sidual issues as well.

The two primary ones were the procurement issue and then the coverage of the agree - ment, including municipalities. o ther kinds of residual issues that came up were to do with the e uropean u nion negotiation, which is ongoing right now, and some of the u .S.-c anada agreements, but they weren't deemed to impact this agreement in any way. [1430] J.

Kwan: Y es, so the issues were around procurement and the coverage of local government itself in the agree- ment. c ould the minister please advise what exchange took place between officials at the ubc M level, at the local government level, with the ministry in addressing those concerns? Hon. P . Bell: The bulk of the issues that were identi - fied were similar to issues that had originally been raised under the tilMa discussion and were dealt with at that level originally in the tilMa discussion.

So that was where the bulk of the issues were raised. i understand that the f ederation of c anadian Municipalities actually has adopted some of the principles behind this agree - ment as well. J. Kwan: c ould the minister please be more specific? l et's just go with the procurement issues. h ow did the ministry address those concerns on the procurement issues? Hon. P . Bell: The issues identified around procure - ment were dealt with by increasing the thresholds for local communities. So the communities, in fact, have higher thresholds for procurement than do crown cor - porations or ministries. J.

Kwan: is the minister talking about the…? i have the agreement in front of me, so i'm just going to check the numbers. u nder the agreement,

article 14 on procurement practices, it refers to "regional, local, district and other forms of municipal government; school boards; publicly funded academic, health and social service entities; as well as any corporation or entity owned or controlled by one or more of the preceding entities where the procurement value is (i) $75,000 or greater for goods, (ii) $75,000 or greater for services or (iii) $200,000 or greater for construction." a re those the numbers that the minister is talking about? i suspect that they are, because that's probably why they're in the agreement. if those are the numbers indeed, what were they before?

Were they the ones that were utilized for crown corporations? Were those the numbers that were being contemplated, and as a result of the consultation, the amount got increased accord - ingly for local governments? Hon. P . Bell: The original recommendation was the same as that for departments or ministries. That is $10,000 or greater for goods. in fact, the agreement shows $75,000 or greater for goods; $75,000 or greater for services, which remain the same at services; and under ministry, department, agency, boards, $100,000 or greater for construction. Municipalities have been set at double that, at $200,000.

The original threshold was the one listed under sub (a). [1435] J. Kwan: i wonder if the minister could advise. f or local governments, is the minister now saying that as a result of the change in the threshold dollars, local gov - ernments no longer have any concerns regarding this agreement on procurement practices? Hon. P . Bell: While i'm sure the member oppos - ite would be able to find a community somewhere that might disagree with the thresholds, the u nion of b.c. Municipalities has in fact signed off on the thresholds as they're identified in the agreement. J.

Kwan: i'm sorry. c ould the minister please repeat that? Hon. P . Bell: While i'm sure the member opposite could find a community somewhere that disagrees with the thresholds as established or even the principle be - hind it, the u nion of b.c . Municipalities has signed off on the level of thresholds that are contained in this agreement.

british c olumbia Debates6768 Monday, May 9, 2011 J. Kwan: i wonder if the minister, in the conversa - tion with local governments — or the ministry, in that discussion with local governments — has a sense of…. What is the average value of a procurement contract by local governments in the areas of goods and services and construction? Hon. P .

Bell: The staff-level people that we dealt with did not identify averages, and i'm sure that depending on what community it is, it could be quite different. f or the member's home community of Vancouver, clearly some of those numbers, i would think, would be much higher by the nature of the business that they do. f or one of the communities located in my riding, Mackenzie, i suspect they'd be much lower. So i'm not sure that averages would be useful in this case. in any event, the u nion of b.c.

Municipalities seems content with the levels that were established in the agree- ment, and on that basis, we move forward. J. Kwan: The sign-off on the procurement issue. Was that signed off by an executive member of ubcM? Who signed off on that, and when was that done? Hon. P . Bell: t o the best of our knowledge, the staff at ubcM were provided the authority by the executive to sign the agreement.

So it is a staff signature on the agreement, but i don't think that's unusual. in fact, the northwest transmission line environmental assessment was just signed by a federal staff person, and that was a significant decision that was signed by ministers here in british c olumbia. J. Kwan: When was that done? Hon. P . Bell: We don't have the exact date with us here, but we believe it was late 2007. J. Kwan: So it was late 2007, and this is now brought before us in 2011.

Would that be, then, part of the consultation that took place with a lberta tilMa, sep - arate and apart from this, or there's specific discussion with respect to this piece of legislation, the n ew West Partnership t rade a greement implementation a ct? [1440] Hon. P . Bell: i hope i made this clear earlier, but if not, the primary bulk of the detailed consultation with ubcM and with others took place during the tilMa agreement.

This agreement mirrors the tilMa agree - ment, so the consultation that took place here was simply going back and reaffirming with ubcM and other organizations that the thresholds and the like that had been set were still appropriate. The determination of the thresholds was done as part of the tilMa agreement, and that was reaffirmed as a result of the consultation to do with the new west part - nership agreement. J. Kwan: Does the minister, somewhere in the min - istry, have the threshold, whether it be average dollars or median costs to a contract, in these areas across differ - ent communities across b.c.?

Would the minister have that information in the ministry? if so, could the minis- ter please provide that information to the house? Hon. P . Bell: While this ministry doesn't have that data available, we do think it's likely that Ministry of finance would have that data, and we would be happy to try and research that out. h owever, it may take some degree of time in order to collect that, so i would hope that the member would give us the leeway to do that as time allows. J.

Kwan: i would appreciate that very much. i'll be interested. i'm not sure how detailed that informa - tion would be in the Ministry of finance. it might be a community-by-community type of format, or it could be a regional format. but i would appreciate as much detail as the minister could gather from the Ministry of finance on this. n ow, that's in the area of procurement practices by way of the threshold question. l et me just ask an ex - ample.

Would this agreement stop local food service contracts — for example, for a b.c. food–first sort of dir - ection? f or example, if the threshold is over the amount prescribed in the act, would that stop this kind of initia- tive from taking place in b.c.? Hon. P . Bell: a s with many things in life, the answer is often yes and no. So the answer to that question is: if the product is to be resold…. a s an example, if a school was to be selecting fruit to be resold through its cafeteria to the students, they could specify a specific product, location.

Saanich Peninsula grapes could be on the list. but if it was not to be resold, then it would restrict it and it would require an open procurement process. J. Kwan: l et's just take this further by way of an ex - ample. We have a school system whereby the local school cafeterias would buy various agricultural prod - ucts. Then they would produce it into some sort of meal or food item to sell to the students, so it would be resold in that context. in that instance…. f or example, local governments decided to go for - ward with a local food service type of initiative for their school district.

Would this agreement apply then, and would that threshold apply to them? [1445] Hon. P . Bell: u nder the circumstance that the mem - ber opposite describes, those products would be exempt.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 9, 2011 6769 They could specify the location where the products were to come from or in some other way prescribe what the product is. So it would be exempted from this agreement. J. Kwan: Would that be the case also for hospitals? l et's just start with that. Hon. P . Bell: a s with many things in life, that's yes and no, because if it is to be resold, in fact, it would be exempted.

So if it was a hospital cafeteria or vending machine or something of that nature, it would be ex - empted. if it were to be given away for free, then you would fall under the procurement process if it exceeded $75,000 in value. J. Kwan: What about in the instance of daily meals to patients in the hospitals? Hon. P . Bell: a s with many things in life….

Sorry, that line is probably getting tired but, however, is prob - ably true again. in the circumstance that the member describes, i would have to answer that question on a contract-specific basis, because i can imagine circumstances under which it would be exempted. i can also imagine circumstances under which it wouldn't be exempted.

So the question that the member asks doesn't have enough detail around it to be able to provide a firm yes or no. a gain, just as a general rule of thumb, if the product is being resold in some way, then it is exempted. if it is not being resold, then it would be required to fall under this. a gain, the threshold of $75,000 would apply for that par- ticular item. J. Kwan: a ctually, in that last instance, where pa - tients in hospitals…. i've been a patient before. Y ou're in a hospital bed, and your meals come. Y ou have these little sheets of paper asking you what you would like for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Y ou as a patient don't pay per se for those particular meals. They just come as part of the hospital service for patients that are there. in that specific instance, with those kinds of contracts, where those meals are being served to the patients in various hospitals across british c olumbia, would they be exempt or would they be included in this agreement? Hon. P . Bell: in the case that the member opposite describes, i suspect that they would be included and captured under this agreement. J.

Kwan: is that the case also for seniors homes, for example? in the case of seniors homes, it's a little bit complicated. i'm anticipating the minister's answer that he has been diligently putting forward in this set of de - bates, and that is a yes and no answer together. i'm talking about in the seniors home, where you do pay for the services yourself. Y ou're purchasing a service in this particular seniors home. Purchasing that service in the seniors home, it comes with the meals as part of that service. So as part of that service….

These are or - ganizations — or seniors homes, if you will — that are managed by the provincial government or a local gov - ernment. in those instances where the meals are served, would they be included in this agreement or would they be exempt? Hon. P .

Bell: This is going to be a bit complicated again, i think, so i'll try and go into it in some detail. in most circumstances in a seniors facility, where the senior is paying for that service, it would be considered to be purchased by the senior and therefore would be exempted. [1450] but there's actually a second tier, or lens, that comes to bear here, and that is that a private contractor typ - ically will contract that food delivery service. once that private contractor has contracted that food delivery service, they're free to make whatever procurement de - cisions they choose to make.

That would also apply in a hospital. So if a hospital contractor, a private contractor, acquired the contrac - tual responsibility to deliver food services in a hospital, that contractor would then be free, if they chose to, to only purchase a b.c . product, as an example. That would be an acceptable thing for that contractor to do. They're not bound by the agreement once they've en - tered into the contract.

The actual agreement revolves around the contract being available to the broader pri - vate sector in the three provinces combined. in the example that the member was asking previ - ously, specific to procurement of food products, that is largely only relevant in circumstances where the hos - pital provides its own food services, which does occur. There is a mix of service providers. So i think the answer to the member opposite's question is that on the seniors home example, to the best of our knowledge, they would be exempted from the requirement under the new west partnership agreement. J.

Kwan: Presumably, local governments would have raised the issues around various other economic de - velopment initiatives — often, particularly, in small communities, for sure, but not just in small commun - ities — where you would want to engage in a practice that encourages and supports local economic develop - ment activities for those communities. c an the minister, then, shed some light on what eco - nomic development initiatives would be exempt from this agreement? or conversely, what would be included in this agreement, aside from the threshold issue?

british c olumbia Debates6770 Monday, May 9, 2011 Hon. P . Bell: There are three such circumstances that we are aware of here. The first is if there is a specific public policy objective around the procurement of a service or a good, and those are listed — what those policy objectives are. They're around public safety and security — those sorts of things — and they're listed in the agreement.

The second is if it can be demonstrated that there is only a single potential supplier for a particular good or service and that there is no reasonable cause for you to go outside, knowing that there is only that single poten- tial supplier. The third is under emergency situations where it can be demonstrated that it is necessary to deal with the situation in an expedited fashion. a n example of that might be a roof caving in on an arena that needed to be fixed or secured. The local jurisdiction would be able to go ahead and direct-award that or award it on a local basis if they so chose. J.

Kwan: c ould the minister please define the word "local"? [1455] Hon. P . Bell: Well, this maybe isn't the best definition the member opposite is looking for, but it's under

part 6 of

definitions. it is sub (c), which says: "r egional, local, district or other forms of municipal government, as well as any corporation or entity owned or controlled by any such form of municipal government." J.

Kwan: o kay, so there are procurement practi - ces issues. i know that there are other members of the h ouse who would want to get into some specific areas of the agreement. i'm going to sort of just plow along, and then they'll signal me when they want to jump in with respect to this set of debate. o kay, so that's on procurement practices. n ow i'd like to ask the minister questions around other areas that lo- cal government might have expressed concerns about with respect to this agreement. a re there any other areas on which local governments have brought up issues and concerns? a lso with respect to this, aside from ubcM, did the ministry consult with the b.c.

School t rustees a ssociation and the various health authorities? Hon. P . Bell: t o the first question, i had mentioned earlier, in a previous answer, that the coverage of mu - nicipalities was another issue that was flagged. t o the second question, groups like bcS ta, others, the health authorities…. We had informal discussions with them, but again, the detailed discussions were held previously at the tilMa level. J. Kwan: Just to be clear, with bcS ta, the discussions were at the tilMa level.

Were they informed, then, when this agreement was brought forward that it's go - ing to be signed off? a re they aware of this prior to the agreement being signed off? Hon. P . Bell: i need to correct the record. My previous answer, i think, will show that i said that we had informal discussions with bcS ta, health au - thorities and the like around the new west partnership. in fact, i'm informed that it's not the case. We did not have those discussions. Those discussions were all held at the original tilMa process, and that was deemed to be sufficient.

So i just want to correct and make sure that's understood. [1500] J.

Kwan: Y eah, that actually raises concerns for me, to be sure, because the bcS ta raised concerns around the tilMa agreement. n ow we're sort of moving and plowing ahead with further agreements, as well, in this instance — the n ew West Partnership t rade a greement implementation a ct. before we get too far along in this area, my colleague the member for Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows actually has some questions around procurement practices. i'm go - ing to defer the floor to him at this time, and then we'll come back to further discussion around this issue. M.

Sather: i just want to ask the minister a question about…. u nder appendix 1, the transitional measures for Saskatchewan under

article 14 on procurement, it says that it does not apply to crown corporations until July 1, 2012. That's the transitional period then — right? Hon. P . Bell: That's correct. M. Sather: So after that date, the in-effect date, pro - curement of crown corporations is not exempted in any way from this agreement, then. Hon. P . Bell: That's correct. M. Sather: So that would be for Saskatchewan. i'm just trying to understand the agreement, and i have gone through tilMa quite a bit too. Why does the agreement bother to do that? Why have a two-year tran- sition period when it's going to come into effect anyway?

Why not just make it happen right off the bat? Hon. P . Bell: it's actually just over a year, given that it's May 9, 2011, today. t o July 1, 2012, is 13½ or 14 months. but in addition, the member opposite will recall that in the tilMa agreement a lberta and b.c. had a two- year transitional process which allowed for crowns and others to adopt the new responsibilities that they had in their procurement and other purchasing services. That would mirror the decision here to provide some time for

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 9, 2011 6771 transitional processes, with the new province coming in being the province of Saskatchewan. G. Gentner: Just a very simple question to back up on this to the minister. if i have it correct that the whole modus operandi of the new west partnership is something to find economies of scale, so to speak, in the procurement orders in order to lower costs, can the minister agree or disagree? is that not the basic premise in all this? Hon. P . Bell: That is one of two central themes be - hind this agreement.

The other central theme behind this agreement and tilMa was to allow b.c.-based companies to do business in a lberta originally, and now a lberta and Saskatchewan, on a competitive basis with - out any cross-border barriers. of course, the reciprocal of that also applies. G. Gentner: indeed, that is the general premise, so to speak. Wouldn't it be easier to promote international trade through the greatest economies of scale to be achieved by all c anadians by combining your efforts through the federal government? [1505] Hon. P .

Bell: i think it's a bit cynical to try and advo - cate for free trade internationally when we don't have it internally within c anada. This has been a longstanding agenda item when the Premiers meet, and b.c. decided to move forward with a lberta initially. Saskatchewan saw the results and wanted to partner and become part of that process. c ertainly, british c olumbia would wel- come other provinces that were interested in joining the elimination of internal trade barriers.

While i agree with the member's assertion that inter - national trade is also critical, and certainly we are open and eager to participate in other negotiations that the federal government may take forward on free trade agreements with other jurisdictions, within our control is simply the ability to manage our interprovincial trade relationships and eliminate barriers. G. Gentner: is the minister suggesting that he's given up on the partnership of c anada? Manitoba is sort of seen as a western province. h ow do you do the arbitrary decision to just include three provinces? Hon. P .

Bell: The initial agreement…. i was actually quite involved, when i was Minister of a griculture and l ands from 2005 to 2008, in trying to remove interprov- incial trade barriers. Various provinces have different views on agricultural subsidies and how that's managed. initially, b.c. and a lberta found themselves in alignment in their view around a free and open market relationship with the two provinces. once Saskatchewan saw the results, they ex - pressed an interest in becoming part of it.

We would be open to and embrace other provinces such as Manitoba, ontario, Quebec, the maritime prov - inces and certainly the territories to become part of this relationship as well. We would be honoured by the fact that there may be other provinces interested in joining with us. J.

Kwan: The minister said there were no specific con- sultations with the bcS ta or health authorities. i'm wondering if the minister can provide me with a specific list, then, on who was actually consulted for this agreement. i know that he referred to some of the groups that were consulted for the a lberta tilMa agreement at the time.

Then subsequently in the case of ubcM, there was a refer back to the representative from ubcM on this issue related specifically to this agreement. in that instance, i would be interested in actually getting a list from the minister specifically on who was consulted, specifically related to this agreement and not just on the assumption that there was consultation done when the a lberta tilMa agreement was brought in place. Hon. P . Bell: Y es, i would be happy to provide that, but it will take some time to put together. J. Kwan: i appreciate that.

Presumably, it will be per - haps a long list or a short list. a s the minister is compiling that list, could i ask his ministry to also provide this infor- mation — the comments that were made from the folks that were consulted? in other words, how do they feel about this agreement? What comments did they offer? i'd be interested in getting that information as well. Hon. P . Bell: We'll provide an outline of the general comments received. J. Kwan: l ast but not least, if the minister could also provide the timeline on when this discussion took place, i would appreciate that as well. Hon. P .

Bell: t o the best of our ability, we will — again, not knowing exactly what we have sitting here right now. but certainly, we'll do our best to provide that. [1510] The Chair: Shall

section 1 pass? J. Kwan: n ot quite yet, Madam c hair. Y es, further questions with respect to this. i'd like to actually move to another area, and that would be on the question of exemptions. The agreement provides for exemptions of certain areas to be included in the agreement, so i'd like to canvass that with the minister a little bit.

british c olumbia Debates6772 Monday, May 9, 2011 i know that, for example, the Saskatchewan govern - ment talked a lot, prior to signing off on this agreement, about the desire to exempt crown corporations. Y et i see that in the agreement itself crown corporations are not exempt, except for some of the guidelines that have been put forward around the threshold. i wonder if the minister can enlighten us around those discussions and what happened there in terms of the issue related to crown corporations. Hon. P . Bell: The member opposite is quite correct.

Saskatchewan's initial position in the discussions was to exempt their crowns from the new west partner - ship agreement. a s we went through the negotiations, they came to the conclusion that an open procurement process was preferable and chose to sign on with a tran- sitional process. interjection. J.

Kwan: The member says he just gave a great an - swer. a nd you're right. in the spirit of cooperation here, i will take his word for it, and i won't challenge him on that. on this agreement, on the exemptions and related to crown corporations, because it was one of the areas which caused the previous discussions with Saskatchewan to sign on to tilMa — and now with, i would argue, par- tial provisions to address crown corporations….

When did that change with the Saskatchewan government? in other words, exactly at what point in the discus - sion with the Saskatchewan government did it change, that they were willing to sign on? e ven though, sub - stantively, this agreement is essentially the same as that of the a lberta government, there's really been not that much change — no change, i would argue. So at what point did that sort of switch over? Hon. P . Bell: The member opposite will appreciate that there were a number of issues that were ongoing during the negotiation on a variety of items. one of them was the crown corporation issue.

My staff cer - tainly are willing to go back in their notes and try and find a date when we first became aware that it was no longer a key issue from the perspective of Saskatchewan and that they were prepared to sign on with the c rowns, but we don't have that level of detail here with us right now. [1515] J. Kwan: Maybe the minister can confirm for me, then, that this agreement, the new west partnership trade agreement…. The provisions, as they relate to crown corporations — how do they differ from the a lberta tilMa agreement? i just want to get it on the public re- cord if they are different at all. Hon. P .

Bell: There is no substantive difference. J. Kwan: That is by far the best answer that the minis- ter gave so far in this set of estimates. i just wanted to… interjection. J. Kwan: That was last week. ...cross my i's and dot my t's and make sure that i'm not misreading the agreement and that my memory is not faulty in remembering the alberta tilMa agreement. o kay, so we got that sorted out on the crown cor - porations.

There is another area about which i know there are some concerns, and that would be local procurements. a ctually, we just touched on local procurements a little bit earlier. c ould the minister also put on the public record for me how the issues around local procurements for this agreement, the new west partnership trade agreement, differ from that of the a lberta tilMa agreement? i'm assuming the answer is that there are no substantive dif- ferences, but i'd like to get the minister to confirm that on the public record. Hon. P . Bell: The member assumes correctly. G.

Gentner: Just let me segue right into the crown corporations, and then i'll surrender the chair to my dear friend from c ariboo n orth. My understanding of the agreement is that it does not apply to any corpor - ation, partnership established, owned or controlled by either the a lberta investment Management c orporation or the b.c. investment Management c orporation, and there is no similar exemption for the crown investments c orporation of Saskatchewan. Do i have that correct? Hon. P .

Bell: My understanding is that the organ - ization in Saskatchewan is set up differently, and the exemption was not deemed to be required for them, ver- sus the exemption provided to bciM c or the a lberta investment management organization. My understand - ing is that it was covered off, it was discussed, but it was not deemed to be required, given the construction of the investment model in Saskatchewan. G.

Gentner: i take it, therefore, that this is one of the examples where the ministry referred to this as tilMa -lite. it just doesn't include those types of crown corporations from the province of Saskatchewan. i raise it because on n ovember 10, 2009, sometime thereafter the three provinces got together and decided to discuss a joint regional plan relative to a pension plan. The three organizations i just gave examples of could be used, through consultation, to develop such a plan.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 9, 2011 6773 c ould the minister explain to me: can this tilMa - lite in any way harmonize the standards relative to a pension system for all three provinces? [1520] Hon. P .

Bell: Pensions and pension plans are out - side the scope of the agreement. h owever, given the nature of the relationship that is developed as a result of the agreement, the agreement could lead to a model where the three provinces chose to work collaboratively to provide a better pension model for their respective jurisdictions. it's outside of scope, but conceivably, given the nature of the agreement and the way the three prov- inces are working together, it may be possible to see the three provinces develop something that would work for their respective constituent groups. G.

Gentner: i take it then, hon. c hair, that this tilMa -lite or new west partnership creates sort of a

preamble, if you will, to develop a supplementary pen - sion plan amongst the three provinces. Hon. P . Bell: i don't think the member accurately de - scribes what i said. i simply said that the fact that there is a relationship between the three provinces could lead to an opportunity where they could negotiate some - thing. h owever, the agreement itself does not refer to any sort of pension management organization, nor is that specific work contemplated in the agreement. V . Huntington: i wonder if the minister could advise me whether

part V , "e xceptions," under subsection a, general exceptions to the agreement: "Measures adopted or maintained relating to aboriginal peoples." Does this section, therefore, preclude treatied local indian gov - ernments from the agreement? Hon. P . Bell: in fact, the

section does not consider the difference between a treaty or non-treaty first n ation, so the exemption would apply regardless of whether the first n ation was in or not in treaty. V . Huntington: So it doesn't take into account a treaty that requires an indian government to be subject to the general provisions of the laws of british c olumbia. it exempts them from that, an actual local indian government. Hon. P .

Bell: This agreement, the new west partner - ship agreement, in no way requires the t sawwassen f irst n ation or any f irst n ation to participate in this agreement. [1525] h owever, i am not as current as the member op - posite on the t sawwassen agreement. There may be a clause in the t sawwassen agreement that requires them to participate in this or other types of procure - ment agreements — which would, then, require them to participate — but this agreement by itself does not impose that on a treaty f irst n ation. i hope that's clear. This agreement itself would not require that.

There may be something in the treaty that would require that par - ticipation, though. V . Huntington: a rticle 14 of the treaty, then, under "Procurement," subsection (c). Y ou're saying that be - cause local indian government isn't included in that section, then they're excepted, you believe. Hon. P . Bell: That's correct. B.

Simpson: Maybe the minister needs to move down to our end so that he's seen all the time and it's more dir- ect conversation — either that or a little button. i want to continue with the exemptions, and as a gen- eral question, i'm just curious about how the range of exemptions was canvassed. of course, the intent of the agreement is to try and get some sort of level-playing- field agreement — you know, the unrestricted trade as well as the ability to have all three provinces oper - ate together.

Then, of course, you bind the agreement by listing a whole bunch of exemptions to continue to have the public policy initiatives that you want to have in your own province. t o start that off, i have some specific questions, but how is the range of exemptions arrived at? Hon. P . Bell: The exceptions were largely modelled after the interprovincial agreement on internal trade that other provinces have signed, with the exception of n unavut. That's where the exemptions came from. The remaining components of the agreement on internal trade are not as strong, of course, as this. That's the benefit of this agreement.

The exemptions were largely modelled after the agreement on internal trade. B. Simpson: Was there any attempt to take a look at that as a framework and say that there are areas that we may need to upgrade, given that our business climate is changing, given that some of the dynamics within the province are changing? Was there any process that actually looked at those and said: "l et's update them a little bit to reflect more current realities"? Hon. P .

Bell: The agreement on internal trade, as i said earlier, was used as the framework to model these exemptions, but the work that the member opposite was suggesting is exactly what was done. in fact, it was only used as a framework, and then improvements were made to the exemptions on internal trade into this agreement.

british c olumbia Debates6774 Monday, May 9, 2011 B. Simpson: i won't canvass the details of that, be - cause the critic for this has tried to scope out what the range of consultations was. [1530] n ow that these exemptions are in the agreement, if there are areas of public policy that do shift, what would the process be for changing these exemptions, either adding or deleting or changing some of the language in the exemptions? Hon. P .

Bell: The process is that annually minis - ters convene, the ministers responsible for the act. if there are any further exemptions or changes necessary, they're tabled at that meeting for officials to work on, and then changes would be made by agreement of the three parties. B. Simpson: i guess there's the rub in trying to get a free trade arrangement with those parties, to giv - ing those parties the ability to constrain public policy changes by, as the minister has indicated, trying to get agreement. i have a couple of examples where i think there may be some traps in there.

Just one for clarification. on one of the exemptions under "Government Procurement,"

section 2(

f) there, "entities which operate sporting or convention facilities, in order to respect a commercial agreement." That isn't compatible with the other areas around procurement in the actual agreement itself. i was wondering if the minister could explain why that explicit exemption is in the agreement. Hon. P . Bell: The member may or may not have been in the h ouse earlier on when we were talking about the example of food services being contracted out and the ability to specify a local producer for a food product.

The point of difference largely came around resale of that product, and it's a very similar situation here. These facilities that are being referred to typically, in many cases, are publicly owned facilities that have been contracted out to a private provider, and the contract period could be for a very long period of time. The pri - vate provider is not bound by the agreement in the sense that they're allowed to enter into commercial relation - ships as they see fit. That would be why this exemption applies and why it exists here. B. Simpson: u nder the exemption

section D, "energy and Minerals," there are two sections to this. one has to do with measures adopted for mineral resources and conservation of energy or mineral resources.

The second is promoting renewable and alternative energy. i'm just curious. on the oil and gas sector, as the min - ister well knows, we're in a position where often we're in direct competition with a lberta on how royalties and subsidies are structured. it looks like we're going to go through another round where a lberta and b.c. are going to have to play off of each other for the limited amount of money that's around there, particularly in shale bed and coal bed finds. h ow would that work in terms of having the exemp - tion?

Does it require the parties to come together and discuss what they're doing and to get sign-off, even though the exemption may exist? Do they still have to get sign-off to make any substantive changes to public policy with respect to minerals or oil and gas explora - tion or development? [1535] Hon. P . Bell: The member points to

section D of the agreement, "energy and Minerals," with two sec - tions and three subsections. i think they're reasonably self-explanatory in terms of the nature of what they exempt. There's another thing that's important for the mem - ber opposite to know, and that is that royalties on minerals or energy products are exempted.

Therefore, should one jurisdiction or another choose to have a different royalty regime for a specific mineral or energy resource, they are able to do that without having to consult with another jurisdiction or without coming to any sort of agreement, because royalties are specific - ally exempted. B. Simpson: Thank you to the minister. i was aware of the exemption. i just wasn't sure if there was something that compelled some sort of consultation. Thank you for that clarification. The next

section i'd like to look at under exemptions is the whole

section on regional economic development. a gain, the minister has this as part of his minister - ial portfolio. i know he's very well aware, because he comes from the same part of the country as i do, that we've got some areas of the province that are going to go through significant transition — the mountain pine beetle in our area. The northwest is going through tran- sition as it struggles with what it is going to do with its fibre resource, etc. i guess in this case it starts talking about "regional economic development measures, provided that such measures (

a) are only adopted or maintained under exceptional circumstances." i'm curious how that gets defined. is that a negotiated agreement on what's excep- tional, or does one of the parties — i.e., the province of british c olumbia — just simply say that this is an excep - tional circumstance; therefore, we are going to do X on regional economic development? Hon. P . Bell: a couple of things. The first one is that exceptional circumstances need to be time-bound or time-constrained. They can't be a permanent decision. e xceptional circumstances are declared by the governing

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 9, 2011 6775 jurisdiction. if it was in british c olumbia and Quesnel was defined as an exceptional circumstance, the province of british c olumbia would declare that. if Saskatchewan and/or a lberta didn't believe that that was a fair descrip- tion, then the dispute resolution mechanism would be used, which is defined in the agreement. B.

Simpson: Just so i'm clear on that point about the time sensitivity, with something like the mountain pine beetle where there's a long time horizon, is the minister indicating that time sensitivity is more of a short time horizon in order to avoid dispute resolution? We may have to have, as the minister knows, a three- or a five- year regional economic development initiative in order to get some of those communities over the hump. is three to five years too long, given the time constraints the minister is indicating may exist? Hon. P .

Bell: a lthough the notion of an exceptional circumstance is time-constrained in that it can't be a permanent program or decision, there is no specific time bounding around it. The termination of that dec - laration would occur when the circumstances change. So in a mountain pine beetle situation, it could be much more than three to five years even. [1540] a gain, if the other jurisdiction disagreed with that perspective, there is the dispute resolution mechanism that is used in order to resolve that difference. B.

Simpson: it's more the issue of permanence than the time constraint, as long as it doesn't appear to be permanent. There are two aspects of this — i'll kind of roll them into one for the minister — that i struggle with, with respect to this deal.

That is that it's kind of normal prac- tice in regional economic development to do a couple of things — to do local procurement as a strategy to foster local contractors, to build your own internal economy, if you will, in the community. of course, this has signifi - cant restrictions on local procurement. is there any opportunity for local procurement to be waived? it doesn't appear that it does, given the descrip - tions, but i just want clarification from the minister. if a region decides that one of the best things they can do is really make sure that they enable the local economy to get whatever the dollars are for municipalities, school districts or whatever and want a local procurement policy as part of the regional economic development initiative, is that explicitly forbidden under this trade agreement?

Hon. P . Bell: i have had the unique opportunity as one of the Mla s to have to deal with difficult economic circumstances in the community of Mackenzie. When i look at both the regional economic development clauses as well as the overall procurement thresholds, i have confidence that we would have been able to deliver for Mackenzie in the way that we did without having this particular agreement hamper us in any way. i think the agreement wouldn't have stood in the way of us in terms of the direction we took. a lso, of course, there are the base thresholds that apply regardless.

Those base thresholds often, in the case of a small or mid-sized community looking to im - plement economic development initiatives, would be sufficient to allow for locally procured contracts on an exceptional basis. a lso, if the community were to declare emergency or exceptional circumstances, then of course they'd have the right to do that as well.

So there are a couple of tools in the agreement. a s a general rule of thumb, the principle is we're trying to encourage communities as well as provinces to open up procurement so that the contractor in Mackenzie has the ability to work in Grande Prairie and garner the work that is available to them there — which, of course, in that particular circumstance means a much higher level of work availability than would have existed in Mackenzie. So it does cut both ways. We want our con - tractors to be able to work in other provinces. in order to do that, of course, there's a quid pro quo that comes with that. B.

Simpson: i take the minister's point that it cuts both ways, but from the perspective of public policy in b.c., our responsibility is to make sure that british c olumbia gets the benefit of the way that it gets cut. it's my understanding that lots of contractors i know — fab - ricating contracts, etc. — in Quesnel do work in a lberta and Saskatchewan without this agreement. So i'm not sure that the agreement was necessary for our contract - ors to work in other provinces.

There's another aspect of regional economic develop - ment in the exemptions, and the exemptions specifically state that regional economic development measures must be consistent with

article 12(1). a rticle 12(1) states that parties shall not directly or indirectly provide business subsidies that provide an advantage to an enterprise that results in material injury to one of the parties, "(

b) entice or assist the relocation of an enterprise from the other party, or (

c) otherwise distort investment decisions." [1545] Y et again, part of economic development within the regions is to do some of those things, to create an en - ticement for a business to locate in your area, to try to attract head offices or regional branch plants or vari - ous other things to your area. That is a legitimate tool in regional economic development. a gain, are we not constraining ourselves in this deal with…? it was supposed to be freer trade, but what we're doing now is handcuffing some of our areas that would like to be able to use enticements to actually distort, if

british c olumbia Debates6776 Monday, May 9, 2011 you will, investment decisions in their favour. Does this not constrain that and take that away from economic development in some of our regions? Hon. P . Bell: Since 2001 our government has had a principle of no company-specific subsidies.

That con - tinues today, and that's reflected in this agreement. h owever, i think the member opposite should have some comfort in knowing that if the community of Quesnel, as an example, decided that they wanted to at - tract the solar panel business to Quesnel, they would be able to provide some sort of an inducement as long as it was provided to anyone in the solar panel business that wanted to come and locate in Quesnel. They wouldn't be able to go to XYZ solar panel com - pany and say, "We'll give you something," without making that available to any solar panel producer that wanted to locate in Quesnel.

So there are tools available for economic development — not company-specific tools. That comes back to a basic principle that we've had for some time in this government. a lso, from a taxation perspective, they could apply tax relief to a class of properties or to a zone in an area. They could define a zone — as Prince George has with its downtown — that provides special tax incentives to locate in a given area. So there are tools available, just on a broader basis — not company-specific tools. We think that's appropriate. B.

Simpson: i appreciate that clarification, although i do recall that this government did some bank tax relief with an explicit intent to attract some bank headquarters to british c olumbia at one point. So there was a specific policy, as i recall, at that time. i think the minister's explanations are helping me to understand some of the nuances of this deal.

With that in mind, i'm curious whether or not regional economic development entities will be apprised of what the nature of this deal is and what some of the nuances of it are. i'm just thinking of the money that went to the beetle action coalitions, for example, as they begin to develop some of the tools that they'll be looking at. a gain, the kind of normal practice of procurement, of investment distortion, etc., are some of the tools i know they'll be looking at.

Will there be an education initiative or information package sent out to regional economic development of - ficers and regional economic development entities to make sure they're apprised of what they can and cannot do under this deal? [1550] Hon. P .

Bell: Just before i answer the question from the member opposite, i just wanted to point to the state- ment he made a few minutes earlier with regards to the banking sector. i would argue that that policy is con - sistent with the policy that i described in terms of a local community deciding that they wanted to support a specific industry, to bring that industry. i would argue that that was consistent.

The member opposite asked the question: will there be an outreach program intended to educate organizations such as beetle action coalitions and other economic de - velopment organizations that are run by other levels of government? The answer to that is yes. B.

Simpson: This last question here has to do with language. a s the minister heard me the other day there, we're moving away from Wood is Good to "fibre is fabulous." i just want to read something from Pricewaterhouse - c oopers' most recent report that illustrates why i think this is important. it states: "While the regulatory pic - ture is still uncertain, one thing is for sure: competition for wood fibre — one of the world's most renewable re - sources but not an infinite one — will be fierce." i think the minister is well apprised that the idea of timber or a saw log or whatever….

We're moving quickly away from that. it's one of the traps that you always get into when you try and do

definitions and so on in agree- ments. The current exemption under "f orests, f ish and Wildlife" uses the term "timber" and "timber procurement" — "requirements that timber be used or manufactured within the territory of a party." it's a curiosity, i guess, of…. Shouldn't that now re - flect where companies like c anfor already indicate that they are fibre managers and no longer timber man - agers? it's the direction we're moving in.

My hope is we're going to see some initiatives around a fibre-based economy. is it possible for that word to be changed to reflect where we're going and not constrain us to the old timber world? My question to the minister is: is there a possibility of changing as this thing goes along to reflect the reality that we're faced with today? h ere's a classic example of that. r eally, timber is one thing to protect. fibre is the real issue that we have to protect in the future. Hon. P . Bell: Wood is good, fibre is fabulous, but tim- ber's terrific.

The short answer to the member opposite's question is yes. a s i mentioned earlier, this document is reviewed annually at the ministers' meetings of the three ministers in b.c., a lberta, Saskatchewan responsible for this. if that is the type of thing that people deem to be of value…. i think the member is quite correct. The nomen - clature of that sort is probably the type of thing that would be worth flagging. i suspect the member oppos - ite will recall that there have been several amendments to tilMa in this chamber already, so something of this nature would certainly be on the table for that discussion.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, May 9, 2011 6777 J. Kwan: i know the minister is happy with his an - swers, and that's all good. i'd like to ask the minister, though — on procurement practices, actually. i just want to get back to the language a little bit, and that ties into regional economic develop- ment initiatives and so on. With this agreement, does that mean to say that all language related to local hire type of language would be contrary to this agreement?

That is with the understanding, of course, of the thresh - old issue. i understand the guidelines around that. i'm just trying to get a sense of what language, then, would local governments or other entities be able to use if they want to pursue a local hire type of language for contracts. or would that now be disallowed under this agreement? [1555] Hon. P . Bell: a s with so many things in life, the answer is frequently yes and no to a question of this nature. interjection. Hon. P .

Bell: i don't want to respond to that. if a jurisdiction like Mackenzie — i've been using it today as an example — were to hire on a contract basis someone to perform a specific function, they would be allowed to do that. That wouldn't represent a problem. if the district of Mackenzie were to issue a contract to a company that was over the minimum thresholds and they had not declared a specific emergency or other exemption, then they would not be allowed to enter into a clause….

They wouldn't be allowed to in - sert a clause that required employees to be hired from the area. h owever, i will note for the member opposite, before she gets too excited about this, that that actually was stipulated by the agreement on internal trade that was signed. That's the national agreement on internal trade that requires that to be the case.

Just in the off chance that the member doesn't recall the date in which that agreement was entered into, it was actually in 1995, when the member may or may not have been in cabinet. i'm not sure. but anyway, i'm sure the member opposite will remember the name of the Premier who would have signed that agreement. J. Kwan: Well, 1995 would have predated me sitting in this h ouse, to be sure. Generally, a general election would be pretty significant in the event of who is in this h ouse.

That would be before my time, as they say. [D. black in the chair.] So just to follow up on this — emergency cir - cumstances. c ould the minister define for me what emergency circumstances might be? n

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0509pm 04
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0509pm 04
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d2408d834f6bfca2a9cd5a7c034cb408a9d15397

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