Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 9B (25th Legislature, 1st Session)

25-1-9b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF JvlANITOBA 8:00 o 1 clock, Tues,day, November 4th, 1958. Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. M.tl.. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and receiving Petitions. Presenting re9orts of Standing and Select Committees. Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bills. Orders of the Day. MR. R. W. BEND (Rockwood-Iberville): Before Orders of the Day I would like to draw your attention to some visitors in the first gallery to your ri�ht. You will recall that it has been my pleasure at various times to introduce students from one of the best high:schools in the country - Stonewall.

Tonight it is my pleasure to introd uce stud ents from one of the best high schools in the city, Sisler High School, with their teacher, Miss Mother well. MR. M.A. G�\.AY (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Ministry. Who is responsible for the light that flickers under the Golden Boy? Iviy question is this.

There are many people in the City that wanted to know whether there is a night session they are interested in, but they don't see the flickers until .S o'clock, when I under stand that they cannot be put on earlier than the Mace is on the table, and that means $ o'clock. Well, by the time they decide and they call up their boy friend or their girl friend, it's 9 or 10 o'clock and it is too late to come over here. So, seriously, I wanted to know whether there is a tradition to it which cannot be broken.

If it can be broken, I think perhaps that whenever we have a ni�ht session, that the flickers be on at least at 7 or 6 o'clock so the public who are interested, and there are so many who are interested to see the oroceedings, whether the proceedings will be interesting I do not guarantee, but they wanted to see the oroceedings and come here in time. HONOURABLE DUFF ROBLIN (Premier): Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could undertake to make a comme:ct at least on the hono urable gentleman 1 s question.

I know the ooint that is puzzling him puzzled me in days gone by because it is true tha t accordi ng to our previous custom and tradition the flickering light in the dome is not lit exce'.Jt when the Hace is on the table. That means that in regular sessions, when the House sits from 2:30 in the afternoon through to ll o'clock at ni�ht with a break for dinner, then of course the lLjht does flicker in the dome, and people who watch it can tell whether ,,re :tre sitting that night, if they should haopen to look out before 8 o'clock. But it seems to be l

MR. ROBLIN (Continued) the·custom that if we start a separate sitting, as we are doing these days, one in the afternoon and one in the evening, when the sitting closes in the afternoon and the mace le.aves the Chamber, then �ustom decrees that we do not light that flickering light in the dome until such time as the Speaker has resumed his chair and the mace is back in its place. Now, as to whether that is a good custom or not, I must leave it to the House to decide. Certainly, there is no tradition that cannot be changed and I suppose that if it is the wish of th e House we can change it.

My own view is, however, that perhaps we would do well to continue to adhere to the ancient tradition because I think that if people want to know whether we are is session, the news is readily available through other channels. And while I must confess I am the last one to discoura�e anyone from coming to visit us here, we are always very glad to see people here and sometimes re,�ret there aren't more, I really incline to the opinion on an offhand basis at any rate, that we should leave this custom the way it stands. MR. R. PAULLEY (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, while we are talking about flickerinrs lights, I would like to commend whoever was res ponsible for the attempt to illuminate this marvellous building that we have here in Manitoba. We have heard from visitors from all parts of the continent, and also from overseas, of the beauty of our Legislative Building here in the Province of Manitoba, and I was more than pleased this evening to see that at last it has been lit up on the outside, as it is very often lit up on the in side, and would commend whoever's idea it was. There will be some wrinkles possibly to iron out until the lighting is perfected.

The Golden Boy particularly stands out very, very well, and I'm sure that the people of Greater Winnipeg and the Province as a whole will be more than pleased to see this fine building illuminated in the evenings. HONOURABLE ERRICK WILLIS, Q.C. (J.v1inister of Agriculture):. Mr. Speaker, may I say that the new look of the Government buildinr� is supposed to indicate a new Government and also a· new look on our problems, and accordingly, thts evening it is lighted as a demon str4tion.

May I say to those Scotchmen who are opposite that the cost will amaze them because it is so reasonable and I think com pletely worthwhile. I have long thought that this buildin1.s should be Presented in a better way and I hope for the day when we shall clear out these buildin,;;:s directly north of here so that it may be looked at from Porta.se Avenue and you may t�et a nroPer impression in re,sards to the buildin,�. You have a ten million dollar bJ. ild ing which couldn't be built for twenty million dollars now, and you have a ten dollar anQroach to it as far as the public is con cerned.

For the benefit of the new Members, I should just like to recount a story which is true, which I have told to many others. A few years back a .':sent leman came to my offi ce and he said '1I am an archi.tect from Washington - my specialty is public building.9 - 1 have come here specifically to see your buildin,cs and when I have inspected it I will a�ain return to Washington'', !lnd he said to

MR. VVILLIS (Continued) me "Could you �ive me an architect so that he may answer my questions? 11 and I said 11Yes, we would be happy to ,;ive him our leadinr� architect on one considera.tion 11, and he said "What is that?11, fearfully, and I said 11Well, providing only that you will come back and tell me what you think of this building". So he had told me that he thou<Sht he knew all the public buildings on this continent and he had built several of them himself and, as a con sequence, he thought that he had seen all the ��ood ones at le:ist.

So he made his tour and he returned in ahout three h�Jurs, I said to him "Well, what is the answer? " He said "Well, I want to tell you that there is one building on this continent that might be considered equal to it and that is the Supreme Court Building in Washingt on " but he said "I will assure you from my experience that there is no other on this continent ". MR. GRAY: Just one minute to reply to the last speaker is this. The new illumination is wonderful.

I admired it and I spent about 10 or 15 minutes to admire it, but so far it only lits up and decorates the office of the Premier and the office of the Minister of Agriculture. Now what about -- I haven't beE:m there yet -- now what about the front of the building where the masses come in? Aren't the masses that come into this buildin g entitled to some light? lvl�. WILLIS: •• •••..• always subject to improvement, and I as- sure you that we shall. improve. This is the first ni�ht of an exoeriment. MR. D.L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Oppositio n) : Mr.

Speaker, this is an interesting discussion and one that I am sure the older Members of the House can share with the newer ones, but I think it requires a little bit of research with regard to the fla�ing light because I notice what the Honourable the First Minis ter said, and I remember hearing that mentioned last session.

I'm sure I haven't been keeping as closely in touch with these natters recently as I used to - I don't refer only to the last few months, I mean for some years, but my distinct recollection is that wh en I first came in here that it was not the custom to have the light flashing only during the time when.the House was sitting. I quite recall at that time we were instructed that the reason was the one mentioned by the Honourable Member for Inkster, that it was in order to inform the oeoole who mi,;sht be interested, during the adi ournment hour, if there was a ni:;ht session.

Then I remember that more recently there seemed to be a deoarture from that opinion, that orocedure. I would suggest that it would be 1t1ell for us to meet the point that the Honourable £.1ember has made and take a look at this again, because I think it is some convenience to the people to tell thos e who are in a oosition to see the fla.shin•s light and let them know whether the House is sitting or not, and I wish some one would just check up to find why the change was made. Quite fran'zly, I don't recall when that was done.

So far as the new illumination around the building, I think I'll reserve judgment for a little while on th3.t one. I guess I'm 3

l/!R.

CAlv�PBELL (Continued) old fashioned about a great many things, and I suppose that you'll find that as with the 90licies that have been in effect here as compared to newer ones, that I'm inclined to reserve judgment for a little while, because I must confess that I always thou:�ht that one of the striking architectural features of this building was this dome and its Golden Boy, an.d I thousht that the method that we had formerly of having the light switch illuminate the dome itself, leaving the rest of the building less brilliantly lit, or with little lighting, showed up the dome and made it quite a striking effect, and a sort of an eerie effect that I thought was quite striking.

However, perhans it1 s well to have both parts lit un, to use that term that has already been emnloyed. I notice that the Acting Minister of Public Works says that thi.s is meant to correspond with the new look in Government and is meant to su•,?;gest that there is a new Government in here. I think that might be kind of appropriate because it seems to me the calor was rather bilious and maybe •• •.• or jaundiced ••.•• maybe it1s quite appropriate. I notice that the Honourable the Acting Minister says that it is an experiment, and perhaps some other changes are going to be attempted.

But I would suggest that some research be conducted into this question of the flashing light because I think there is some point to trying to inform the people who are within sight of the lights in the dome as to whether the House is going to sit. Then of course there ',vould be no reason why they shouldn't continue to flash if that is thought to be a good plan as well, and I think it is. Mr. Speaker, I have one other matter. Just to be right I should sit rlown and then take it up later. lv�. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I am not attempting to continue a debate here on the calor of the --- on the new appearance of the building except to remark that beauty lies in the eye of the be holder. But to continue with the point raised by my honourable friend with respect to the flashing lights in the top of the dome, I must bow to his longer service in the House and confess that I had not heard the information that it had once been the custom to keep them flashing.

I suppose that our customs could be traced to the tradition in the Mother of Parliament where originally a lan tern was hung outside the door of the House of Commons as a method of guiding or street lighting in the absence of the kind of light ing we have tod.ay, and that has since , I believe, been translated into. a light in the tower of Big Ben.

However, while I must confess I am not an expert on these matters, I can undertake to have inquiries made to see whether there is any really good reason why we can't have them flashing all the time, and if we find that we can do so without too great an offence to the traditions of the House, \vell we will be glad to do it. MR. E. P .. ZEFONTAINE ( Carillon) : Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Acting Minister of Public Works told us that the price of these lights would be pleasing to the Scotsmen on this side of the House.

I don't plead guilty to being a Scotsman but still I would like the Honourable :Minister to tell us a little bit more about what he thinks is a reasonable nrice. 4

WJR. WILLIS: When we have achieved what we hope will be near perfection in the lightins, and we have established completely the price, I shall be very happy to inform you. We may need more li�;hts or less lights, we may need more flashers, ·or less flashers, and on that basis we shall be able to inform you. And again I say, even althou�h you are fortunate enough not to be a Scotchman, you will be surprised at how reasonable it is. MR.

CAMPBELL: Sir, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I would like to ask a question of the First Minister that necessitates a brief statement first, I'm afraid, and that is that having been unavoidably absent this afternoon I was not present when the two oages of estimates were placed before us. Might I ask the Fi rst Minister, Mr. Speaker, if these are all the estimates that we ar� to have placed before us at this Session. MR. ROBLIN: Yes, Hr. Speaker, that is all that we intend to place before the House.

And perhaps I might say as an addition al comment for the information of the House that it would be our hope to proceed with the Co mmittees on Supply and Ways and Means tomorrow afte�noon. MR. CA MPBELL: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is it not in the proper tradition of this House and of the constitutional procedure that we should have estimates to cover the expenditures contemplated in the Bills that are now under way, that have been accented in principle and that are on their way thro ugh the various stages of the House? ��.

ROBLIN: I think that sufficient funds are already pro vided in one v..ray or another, Ivlr. Speaker, to cover those points, but if my honourable friend wants to continue the discussion on the matter in the Co mmittee, when we can have a more freer and fuller discussion of it, I would be glad to give him whatever in formation I can. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on oroposed resolution of the Honour.3.ble Member for Morris. r.tR. H.P. SHEWMAN ( Morris ) : Mr. Speaker, there has been some discussion on this resolution and I think the discussion has been very good.

The Honourable Iviember from Gladstone in speaking, in effect said that the people of the Neepawa area pionee red this Water Conservation Act that was oassed on April 10 last year. I will give them great credit because they are one group of people in Manitoba that have realized the necessity and the need of

an Act such as this; and they have been askin� for help, asking this present Government for imr1ediate action as far as implementing that Bill was concerned. If we will go back several years a'so, Mr. Speaker, when 'I.·Te on this side of the IIouse now were over wher e they are, and that we had had resolution after resolution before this House asking for this immediate action in those days, it l·vas taking a long, long time � I am safe in saying at least five years - before we could get public opinion brou�ht to bear on thi s 5

1-'iR. SHEWMAN ( Continued ) Government where there was any definite action taken as far as the water-soil conservation act was c<Jncerned. Now he mentions that last Friday, I think it wa3, that we had nlaced before on our desks here a pamohlet outlinin,;,, you might sa.y, waters.hed legislation and watershed control, or words to that effect. Mr.

Speaker, I don 1 t think that I would be too far amiss if I '�Nas to make the state ment stating that some time last April those ;->am phlets were orinted, and if my information is right, they lay in the basement of this building because that is the first one that I had ever seen. Now I don't think they were distributed previous to last Friday. Now, when the opposite Member asks for immediate action that is similar to the display of immed iate action that we have had in this Government for a long, long time.

That has been why the people of the Neepawa district and the rest of .tvlanitoba have been pushing this oresent Government ( I'll use the word pushing ) for immediate action because they were under the impression that it would take years for this Conservative Government to move. I am going to inform them rLsht now that we 1 ve had immediate action. When one goes out and plants a crop you have to wai� for the harvest. You have got to wait until tha.t crop ripens. We have planted a seed since June 16 to harvest the crop, as far as soil conservation and water control is concerned.

As the Minister mentioned in his speech the other day, that there has been a great deal of action taken to bring this Act into force, and it is dis appointing in a way when we think back when the J:Vlembers opposite, in the Opposition, sat where we're sitting, day after day, year after year, and you couldn't get no action Qn a question that has been important to the economy of Manitoba as this has been. I don't know of no other question that has faced this legisl3.tion in a •?;ood many years gone by that is more important to the economy of the neople of �hnitoba and especially our farm population. Mr.

Speaker, it seems that '�"Then we were over at the other side, we did criticize the Government for inaction, and rightly so, be cause there was no action as far as farm policy was concerned. There was action alrm•:; the lines in different respects as far as helping farmers was concerned but no definite farm policy.

This Soil Conservation Act, and the Minister mentioned the other night that he "'ras setting up the Commission as soon as is humanly. pos sible, when '"'e were over there and asked the Govern ment to set up a commission and do it immediately, I remember quite well when the Crop Insuranc e Commission was set up. The Leader of the Op position stood on this side of the House and said that we weren't goins to push them into anything in a hurry; he was too smart for that, he was taking his ow n time to pick the best men possible. Now they are criticizing us, Mr.

Speaker, for taking our time over here to ':<;et the best men possible to fulfill this important com mission. I don 1t kno·w where the sense comes in. Now, Mr. Speaker, the other speakers that have spoken have missed a point. I haven't heard one sneaker over there mention the f3.ct that this should come under one authority. Now they are trying to - '�rJhat would I say? - as in orevious deals, one rabbit, one horse - they want to '�et into somethillf'; easy and quick with out 6

thinkin� this thing throu�h to the end. And I maintain th at there should be one authority, ,J.nd th::tt is a Chairman of this Commission to handle a corrmission that is gain� to be as important as this one. And this ·watershed bill that we passed - soil erosion and the ;zoseau .,yatershed Control Bill that we pa.ssed last year, is not, and I said at the time, the ::>raper bill.

I wo uld like the Government to t a..ke into considerl.tidn appointing their Conunission immediately, which we kno''" they are �oin·c; to do, and have that Commission sit until the next reJ;ul J..r session, 3.nd have th3.t committee report back to this House. A.nd I J.m sure if they would do th at we wi ll find out that our next step will be to amend the Soil Conservation and Water Control Act, because, in my opinion, that Bill,. and I stated at the time, was not the proper Bill.

There wasn 1t enou-:;h teeth in it to s�ive the immediate action that is needed. .l.nd I will say that it is a matter of educ3.tion, and I would like to see that an education policy be followed immediately that we could educate the farmers where and how this bill would be the most useful. Now, there v,ras no reference in the bill to that effect and I think th3.t this Government should do that thing - implement a plan of education. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this soil conservation is something that has been tried in other countries and the country to th e so uth of us, that I have mentioned before, has had a soil conservation scheme or plan for a rsood many years and they have realized the necessity of it now, where it's only last Aoril thatw e, after a good many years of trying and talking, have had the previous ,:;;overnment pass this bill to give the necess.J.ry action where vie are gain:� to be doing some good.

The bill across the line, I think in the State of Minnesota and Nort h Dakota, the bill will be spending somewhere in the neighborhood of almost a million dollar� this year in advert isin·;s and alon!s the lines of edCJ.catiOn. It hink, l,lr. 3peaker, that �rre h1.ve to have some sort of edur.> J.tion as far as farmers and this bill is concerned. It touches on a good many subjects. It takes into consideration controlling vnter 1!Vhere it falls, and it takes into consideration farm management. And highway construction will come under the sa.me heading. · vvheat control co mes under the same headinc;.

Anything; th3.t nertains to soil conservation 3.nd water co ntrol will come under this committee's head. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have mentioned in this House before tlHt the previous Government did not, until public ooinion forced them into do inrc; somethin's alon:s the lines of imolementin·� t ha.t bill. How, it \·ras mentioned here the other night, or this .afternoon in fact, bv the HonourJ.ble Member from �.Jte .Rose th.1t the Minister had not taken J.ny action. Now� I am quoting from a paper here, Hr • .::3peaker, where the :t..iinic>t er, for the peoole, had 'd rote a letter to the Neepa"'n Press st:1 ting rr (

l) I believe t h�1 t the new le:sisla tion will exoand rJ.ther than con tr.J.ct the benefits of the datershed and Soil ConservJ.tion :\uthorities .\et. Even thou·;h this Act, which was passed on '\pril 10, 1 956, ''ras a step in the ri ?;ht direction, the oroposed Act will include J.ll of the good features of the pres ent legislation but will be more extensive and f�r-reaching and will i'l. so me c1.ses del.l with municiTllities on 'ln inciividu3.l b::�.sis in r eg-:1.rds to dr:'lina·�e ,'lnd ,,,nter conserv-l t ion oroblems. ·: 2) I believe v'Jatershed Comrnittee.s will DL1y :tn. imDort.3.nt role under the 7

MR. SHEWMAN (Continued) prooosed Act, as they have done under the cresent legislation, ,s.nd all of these committees should remain intact .and ready to operate". I imagine what they meant by that, lvlr, Speaker, that our technical help that we have within our department would be mer�ed into one department to do the most good.

Also further down in this article: "I regret that I was unable to indicate in exact detail the new croposed legislation because legislation for the winter session of the legislature has not yet been considered by the Cabinet, but I have reason to believe that the results will be not disappointin�. Yours very truly, Errick Willis, Minister of Public Works. 11 Well, when the stat·ement was made that our Minister had not t.aken any immediate action I think, Mr.

Speaker, that is not just the fact, so I do say this, that this Government, on soil conserv.:ltion and water control, will ·�ive the people of Manitoba immediate action. MH.. N. SHOEMAKER ( Gladstone) : �Ir. Speaker, if there is no one else that wishes to speak to this Bill, I would like to close the debate on it, · Mk.. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member is closing the debate. Anyone else wish to speak? MR. SHOEMAKER: I just want to correct a couple of state ments that the Honourable Member for Morris made, relative to the various parnohlets lying in the basement of the building.

The yellow copy which you all have, exceot me, I guess. I can't find mine here. And this one and several other ones - I'm surprised the Honourable lvlember for Morris had not seen them before the other evening. But ! just have a note here from the minutes of the meeting that we held on lv!arch the 24th, 1958, and it reports the activity -- it apparently is an annual meeting, and it reoorts some of the activities for the year ryrior to that.

And the Education and Publicity Committee are reoorting here and it says a very successful group of progress meetings had been carried out in the watershed area between March the lOth .and' .March the 21st. Attendance was well over 850. Mr. Poyser and !vir, Lee attended, 600 letters went out, advertising the meetings; 875 White Mud Watershed booklets were distributed; 965 Wonder of Viater booklets were distributed. Now, the, I haven't the last one referred to here -- so, you c'in see that we distributed in one week alone, nearly Z, 000.

So th.at we, certainly, were quite active in this, and we, certainl.Y', realize as the Honourable Member from �lorris has su�·�ested it, it is an eductitional pro1.;ram .and we certain ly feel that we have made some attem1:>t to educate the oeople in our are,:l.

Just as recent :a.s last June, I called on a farmer out in the Springhill district, and that's pretty close to the, what we refer to ,3.s the Riding Mountain Escarpment, .and he said, that "Do you know that the ar�riculture representative at Neepawa has my cr op pro�ram outlined for the next 20 years'?" And I asked him if he in tended to follow it, and he said,. 11Cert.'linly". He has a crop pro gram outlined .and written down th,\l.t he intends to follow for the

lvl.it. SHOEMAKER (Continued) next 20 years. Now, if we can �et nnough farmers to foilow that type of pro.1sram, and realize why they are doing it, th.en we, pretty well, have the ground work done, I think, in our particular area. VJe also investiq;ated, the Honourable Member for Morris made some mention of what they were doin� in 1<iinnesota.

The agricul ture represe ntative at Neepawa, last year, I think, in 1956, it may have been 156 or 1957, durin,<.?; the time that he ' . .Nas suop osed to be enjoying his summer hol idays, he took off about two weeks time and drove down to Kansas and Nebraska and many other olaces in th e States to .study this very problem. He took qu ite a number of colored pictures on that trip and I have had the pleasure of seeing them and he has shown t,.hem at various meetings throughout the, what we call the watershed area.

We have hired buses, chartered buses, and we've driven farmers all over th e area to show them the results of wind and water erosion. I don't know how many, Save the Soil Clubs that are now organized in that terr itory, but they1 re all certainly very interested and I agree that that is the place you have to start. It's an educational program that is needed. Now, I would like t.o read just a very short

article here on what our ag. rep. has to say about some of his find ings in the Un ited States. He says "examples of sim ilar or1sanizations, 11 and he 1 s re ferring to ours, 11can be found in the southern oeninsula of Ontario, whe1�e over 20 are now in operation. The U.S.A. pioneered in this venture, when one of its orojects becar.1e the Tenness,ee Valley Authority. This authority, over a 26 year period, has provided hydro pO\ver, farm fertil izers and many forestry products, to name only a few, to a great area in Central Uni ted States.

Since the enactment of public law 566, more than a thousand aopli cations for watershed developments have been filed throughout the Un ited States. These are in various stages of development . They are, in addition to sever,,_l other oroj ects which have been under way for several years, on a demonstrat ion basis. Excellent ach ievements in watershed development, have been made in Oklahoma on the Sandstone Creek Watershed; the Calgary Creek Watershed and others.

Since public law 566 was enacted, a total of 52 aoplicants for watershed development have been filed by Oklahoma people alone. 11 The job of getting these watersheds organized and developed will require the co-operation and work of many neople. It is pos sible in our area, to rwovide w.ater for domes tic and livestock uses, for many farn1s .as well as urban centres. The development of water areas in Ontario is under the Department of Planning and Develop ment. Profess ional staffs are nrovided by the Provin cial Govern ment in order that watershed authorities n.ay obtain the best technic'll guidance.

Similar assistance is made available in the U. S. by the senior �overnments to the local authorities. In the U. S. it is interest ing to note that a W3.tershed may employ as many as 20 to 30 profess ional and trades oeople to do a co-ordinated job. In Man itoba., proper land use is the most important fa.ctor in watershed mana�ement. It is lo,sical that this should be developed under the cc)rrect orofess ional staff of the Department of Agricul ture. In order tha.t this may be done most effectively, several Dresent Acts of legislature vmuld best be administered under this Department.

Th'lt is, the water rights, Crown lands, forestry and 9

Mi�. SHOE.tviAKE�{ (Cant inued) drainage. Now, the following is taken directly from the material which the le�islature sub-committee oresented to the Campbell Govern ment: 11We recommend the establishmentof a separate department of government, with a Deputy Minister an.d if oossible, a seoarate Minister, to bring together the ore sent s ections of le�islation presently in different departments, so that co-ordination of ef forts may be achieved." If, under circumstances of any 9articular moment, it is impossible to have a separate Minister, we feel that the Minister of Agriculture should be resnonsible.

For ex ample, at the present time, you find small water rights is in Mines and Natural Resources, the drainage commission is in Public Works; Crown land and Land Titles is in Mines and Natural Resources; and soil conservation is in Agriculture. And that was a motion that was moved by Mr. Morton, and seconded by Mr. Broad foot.

Now, I had the pleasure of having lunch today with the Honourable Minister of Agriculture and we discussed this very briefly today again, and I appreciate the remarks that he made last night, and again tonight, and I feel certainithat we will get action, but we feel that, that we have pioneered ln this field. We feel that we certainly have, have laid the ground work and we don't want to be disappointed. As I said last evening, it is very difficult to keep a committee interested unless you c�n show them that you have, that you have borne fruit . .tv�.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote de clared it carried. !VIR. SPEAKER: for Ste. Ro se. Proposed resolution, the Honourable Member M.�. G. MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): lJir. Speaker, I wis h to move, seconded by the Honourable 1'-iember for St. George, that the fol lowing resolution: 1ilhereas the Lakes Winnipeg and Manitoba Board as reoorted June 30th, 1958, the Governm ent of .tvanitoba,de clares that the project of regulating the level of Lake Iv'Bnitoba between elevation eight eleven feet and eight thirteen feet by me.:tns of the Fairford River Control Works is a practicable project

whereas the Lakes Winnipeg and l'�lanitoba Board in effect have made a co'st benefit survey of the Lake Manitoba Fairford River control project and found that the estimated agricultural losses alone for the three years from 1954 to 1956 were $1,600,000.00 and the es timated cost of the oroiect is $1,000,600.00 and

whereas the pro posed project of Fairford River control would practically elimin- ate all of these losses in the future;

whereas such control works would also provide water storage and water conservation during the years of low water,

whereas the Government of Ivlanitoba 1 s pro nosing action to increase winter work projects and winter employment; Therefore

be it resolved that in the opinion of the House the Government of Manitoba should �ive consideration in the advisability of imr:J.ediately undertaking the Fairford rUver Control oroject as recommended in the report of the Lakes Vlinnioeg and Manitoba Board. 10

Mr. Speaker read the motion. MR. MOLGAT: !!Jr. Speaker, first I wish to thank the House for allowing this to stand yesterday afternoon and again this afternoon. In view of the circumstances I'm most appreciative of the indulgence of the House in this case. I 'm pleased also to �et up at this time and nresent what I think will be a noncon troversial motion. My previous two efforts in the House so far have roused the ire of my good friend the Minister of Agriculture, not willingly, but that seems to be the result, and I am sure that in this case we will be in full agree ment.

I cannot rise on such a resolution without thinking back to an old friend of many of us here in the House, the previous mem- ber for St. George, Mr. Chris Haldorson, who unfortunately is no longer with us. Mr. Haldorson was most interested in this pro ject. He had spoken about it several times in the House and I was pleased at that time to co-operate with him in his efforts both here in the House and outside at many meetings that were held on this matter of flooding of Lake .tvlanitoba. I 'm pleased that his successor, the new J.Vlember for St .

George, is equally active on this and was pleased to second my motion enthusiastically. _The recent flooding on Lake Manitoba began about 1955. As a result of the very wet years we ha� andi will refer more details to it later, but the damage was most extensive. In many areas around the Lake, families had to move out completely, go and live else where, abandon their homes and in some cases, all their means of making a livin�, and try and establish themselves elsewhere to make a new start. As an example of the importance that this is 7 you can consider Lake Winnipeg which is a much larger lake.

It is only 150 miles of developed shoreline. Lake Manitoba on the other hand, although much smaller, has some 450 miles of developed shoreline. So, it gives you an idea of the magnitude of the pro blem in that area. At the very start, 1955, when the flooding be came serious there was a voluntary local group 1 entitled itself· the Lake Manitoba Flood Control Committee, made up of private in dividuals, in many cases they were members of the v1.rious councils of the municipalities around the Lake.

They set up this voluntary group to try and get something done to correct this recurring pro blem on Lake J1.1anitoba. Out of the combined efforts of this voluntary group, the Lake Manitoba Flood Control Committee, which by the way, Mr. Speaker, is still active and,I hope the work of the members who were particularly interested in this project, came the Lakes Winnipeg a.nd Manitoba Board. In that regard I wish to pay teibute to the two members of the l'lanitoba Civil Service who were on that Board.

I unfortunately do not know the Federal men who comprised the Board, but I know tha.t these two I>lanitobans, outst.an ding civil servants, have been very active in other fields and, I think, in this regard once again they have produced a very fine niece of 1r10rk. Well, vve. now have the report, Jvlr. Spe'lker; it w-'3.s presented in June of this year to the Government and the problem is, where do we ::J;o from here? The Board made a very thorou:sh study of the 11

l',LL 1.,10L:;_'-\.T (Continued) problem not only of. L-:tke l-·tmitob3. but of· sever:1l other orojects tha t were oresented to it as well. Insofar as Lake ��nitoba is conc erned, they found two possibi lities for the regulation for flood control. First, the control throw.sh the control of Lake Winnipegosis and secondly, throu�h the fairford channel. So far as the LJ.ke Vvinni pegosis control is co r1cerned, it was found to be more costly, much more difficult to do7and as a result their recor:-tmencJ'ltion is simolyt0 fmorovements on the Fairford ch:1nnel and a control dam.

They have proceeded and in their reoort �ive sorre fi�ures and costs; break them down as $1,4eO,OOO.OO for the channel deeoening and Jl20,000.00 for the control. The total cost then .�1, 600,000. Ob and by their st:ttement this \·\rould nermit a regula tion bet·ween 811 and elJ feet. l::Zegulation between those two levels will, ag:1in in their own words; "pra.ctica.lly eliminate :1ll 'lgri cultural losses such as those that were suffered between the years 1954 and 1956".

I think it is right to ooint out that there are other losses in addition to the a�ricu ltural losses, the agricultural losses no doubt were the gre3.test loss. But, there are many others that do come as a result of the high water level. The Board themselves list, for examcle, and this is not included in their cal culations, lake lev,�l dama:se to buildin2;s, roads a 11d bridges; that 1 s from the high water.

So far a:::; the low water levels :tre concerned and those have been a oroblem in years oast as well, is the oroblern that the marsh lands along the Lake dry up, weeds inv.'lde the fa.rm land, stagnant waters from the mars hes develop disease to the water fowl. We had some of that this year in the Delta :tvlarshes. The general lowering of the water table reduces hay pro duction along the Lake. The recession of the water line is a great incon venience to cottage owners and to beaches. So much for the low level. And then there is oroblems as well fro m the fluc tuating level.

That is something that we have suffered constantly as well because the Lake has been going from low level periods to high leve l periods. So far as the fluctuations the, very difficult to assess at the moment but the Department feels that there are some difficulties to the fishing industry. A great deal of spawn is lost due to th e fluctuation. So far as the trapping industry, the same thing haooens. ��skrat houses are built and then the very dry period comes, the muskrat die or vice versa; they are floo ded out. So you have those difficulties there as well from the fluctuation.

But actually, the Board concentrated their work on the agri cultural loss. Mr. Speaker, from their investigations, they have come to the conclus ion that in that oeriod from 1954 to 1956 the agricultural losses alone in the area around Lake Ivlanitoba totalled $1, 6oo,ooo.oo , and that is extremely important. And, in that re gard I would like to quote exactly the statement of the Board.

It is simply this from oage 13 of the·report: "to determine the approxinate magnitude of the agricultural losses sustained during the recent high welter �Jeriod 1954, 1955, and 1956, qualified asses sors eng'l,�ed by the Board conducted a survey around the two lakes". They are referring to Lake Winnioeg and Lake �anitoba. The result of this survey is summarized in the follo',ving st::J.tement a.nd it is 12

Iv'u:Z. lvlOLGA T (Cant inued) given on page 14. They show there that the estimated flooded areas and ��ricultural losses on Lake hanitaba were 155,000 acres for a total of �1 ,600,000.00. So, there is, Mr.

Speaker, one side the cost as estimated by the Board ��1,600,000.00.; · On the other side losses st rictly from .a�ricultural causes alorie, ignoring these· other factors tha t I 1 ve brou·�ht out • • • • • • in three years only, in other words, for an ex�enditure of a million six, we would save the oeople in the are1. :1round Lake l•lanito ba an equiva lent amount that they have suffer.ed in the past three years. · Th-3. t is assuming, of cou.rse, that those troubles will recur in the future and, I think, if you check through the history of Lake Manitob3. you will fi nd that it is 3. series of ups and downs.

Now the Board carried on and investLpted as \vell other pos sible difficulties or benefits from control of L?..ke 1-lanitoba. They found that all other nrojects that were suggested to them for consideration that have been discussed at various times, either in relationship with the flooding of Lake Ivlanitoba or the relat ionshiP tD the Assiniboine River or the Red River Flood Contr-ol for Winnipeg, fits into this problem, this pro.iect quite '-''ell. For examnle, the Assiniboine River diversion.

The Board fi nda that if the diversion were put in either to put more water in Lake lv1anitoba or vice versa to take water O'J.t_ of Lake lvlanitoba into the Assiniboine River in times of low water ; that this Fairford River Control oroject would fit into that scheme. And, that statement is in the report. They find as well that the pos sibility of the D:iu phin River power project which was discussed some years 3.�-,_;o vvould def initely fit into this as well.

If the Dauphin River project, oower project, were to be implemented in the future years, the work that would be done on the Fairfor'd channel 't>Tould fit into th'lt scheme, would be cart of it in any case. They find as well tha .. t insofar as the Nelson Riv.er power develooment1s potential future, again, the Fairford control pro ject would fit into that scheme as well.

One of the difficulties all alon� in our discussion of the control of Lake f.hnitoba and the irn•)rovement· of the channel into Lake Winnipeg v.ras the objection and, I think, justified objection, of the residents along Lake Winnipeg saying th:1t we have problems of our ·o\o\m; don't add water on to us. In that regard, the Board again investig3.ted and reoorts that in their view, and t_his again I quote: "the control of Lake l��'.:anitoba level by channel imorove ments a nd 3. dam in the fairford �Uver would have. had a sli1�ht detrimental effect upon Lake Winnipeg levels." This is on page 27 of the rePort.

The bottom of the pa:,se, it continues: 11It is com puted that the maximum mean monthly L1.ke Vvinnipe:_� l eve l in 1955 wo ul d have been incre ased by one inch ; 'which I think can be reason ably termed as negligi ble. ��. Speaker, coming back again to the re port of the Board. I think it is sL?;nific'lnt that in their findi n'?;S which are sum ma.rized at the front, pa,;>;es q and 9 •• Pardon me, 9 and 10; out of five findin'?;S the only on e th"it the Board recorruilends ;:mrely and in a strai,,sht forw3.rd fashion is this one of L-J.ke hanitoha con trol.

On the -,revious one, the first one which is L:1ke vJinnipeg c::>ntrol, they s:1y sin1.oly 11The Board finds this �'roject to be 13

MH .• MOLGAT (Continued) impracticable under present circumstances' ' · They go on then for Lake Winnipeg regulations for Nelson River power development and ·they say that it may become economical in a few decades. They Proceed to say that some action, such as the reservation of land, mi•;sht have merit, and consid erations could be given. And the third one, recreational interests, ag�in considerations might be ;iven to the orogram. We proceed on then to diking. They say it's not an adequate measure to protect agricultural land from flooding. We proceed ·again to the control of Lake Winnipeg for power purposes.

They say this should t�ke such steps as may be practicable in the then existing circumstances. And we come to the fifth recommendation: Lake Manitoba regulation for flood control, between elevation 811 and 813; I will not read the whole section, but they finish off sim oly with this statement. "T he Board therefore finds this to be a practicable oroject. " It seems to me th erefore, J:v1r.

Speaker, that due to the fact that there is an unhesit.ating recommendation there for that pro ject from all those that were investig:�ted by the Board, due to the fact that it fits into other plans such as the Assin iboine River diversion, the Dauphin River power project, the Nelson River power project in the future. Due to the fact that this would not be a project to drain the lake, but simply a project to control it betwe�n two acceptable levels,8ll and 813 feet.

In view of the fact that a cost benefit survey has been done and I quoted on that specifically the statements of the Board, that they have em ployed assessors to investigate these costs. They find this to be desirable;when you tie that in to the legisl ation which has been presented to us at this session to provide winter work, winter employment, it seems to me that this oroject fits into the plans of the Go vernment at this time and deserves immediate atten tion.

I appreciate that it may not be possible for this winter, to have a great deal of work done th ere to provide employment. ·But it seems to me that a start could be made on thisproject at this time, and in view of all the recommendations, in view of what this report says, that it would be a perfectly fitting piece of work for the Government to begin at this time, and I hope that this resolution will pass unanimously and receive immediate con sideration. J.1R. R.O. LISSAMAN (Brandon): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Honour-1.ble Member for Pembina, that the debate be adjourned. Mr.

Speaker Presented the motion and after a voice vote, de clared it carried. MR. SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Honour3.ble Hember for St. George. The Honourable Member for Morris. HR. SHEWlviAN: M r;. Speaker, '�:Jith the permis sion of the House I'd like to have this resolution st3.nd. 14

lvJR. SPE AKER: Stand. V�. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I see we are at the end of the Order Paper, and I would like to suggest that the House adjourn, that it should convene in room 200 as a Special Select Committee, so that we may continue the consideration of the Bills that are before us. I trust that will meet with general agreement. ·I beg to move, 111lr. Speaker, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, that the House do now adjourn, and stand adjourned until 2: 30 tomorrow afternoon. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote de clared it carried. 15

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	25-1-9b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	25th 1st hansardpdf 9b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	d2626aa303c659704b15ec3a0bace5a647a400be

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