Manitoba Hansard — 1 June 2000 (Sitting 38A, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-38a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 38A - 10 a.m., Thursday, June 1, 2000

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Ge rard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

1873 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 1, 2000 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Orders of the Day, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery, where w e have with us from J.H. Bruns Colle giate 25 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Bill George. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourab le Member fo r Southdale (Mr. Reimer). On behalf of all honourable members. I welcome you here today. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Would you please call second readings of Bills 12 and 27. SECOND READINGS Bill 12- The Public Schools Amendment Act Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member fo r Brandon West (Mr. Smith), that Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act (Loi modifia nt Ia

Loi sur Ies ecoles publiques) , now be read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. An Honourable Member: Use a minister. Mr. Caldwell: Use a minister, okay. Well, I will use the Honourable Becky Barrett- An Honourable Member: Minister of Labour. Mr. Caldwell: The Honourable Minis ter of Labour. Thank you. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Labour (Ms. Barr ett), that Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act (Loi modi fiant Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques), now be read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Caldwell: This is a rookie perf ormance, as is quite obvious to everybody in the House. Mr. Speaker, our government is committed to building a public education system that will prepare Manitoba's youth fo r the challenges of the new economy and ensure that all children have a fa ir start in lif e through the opportunity of quality schooling. That said, this government also recognizes that parents in Manitoba may choose the setting in which their children will receive their education.

Schooling children at home is one such option. While government is supportive of parents who choose to school their children at home, we share respons ibility with them for ensuring that home-schooled children receive an adequate education. Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act, will allow the Department to ascertain that a reasonable standard of education is taking place through home schooling while respecting the rights of home-schoolers to choose an educational plan fo r their chi ldren.

The Bill also contains pro visions that will expedite the payment process fo r certain grants to education orga nizations and to school divisions and districts. At present, home schoolers throughout Manitoba are not legally required to register with or report to the Department of Education and Training. There is, however, a policy expectation that home schoolers regi ster with the Depart ment. This amendment will mandate that home schoolers register with the Department so that the Minister can be satisfied that these children are receiving an education equivalent to that off ered in the public school.

To assist in this determination, parents will also be required to prov ide the Department with informat ion about

1874 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 the home school as well as periodic progress reports on each child registered. In addition to the funding provided through the Schools Finance Program to support Manitoba's K to Senior 4 public schools, The Public Schools Act also allows government to provide additional financial support to school divisions and districts for other purposes not covered under the Schools Finance Program by way of grant funding. Furthermore, Mr.

Speaker, The Public Schools Act allows government to provide grant funding to educational organi zations that, through their various activities, enhance the quality of education in Manitoba. Treasury Board, through the grants listing process of the Estimates cycle, approves the recipients, purposes and conditions of these grants. In the past, these special grants have been paid to organizations such as Marymound Inc., the New Directions for Children, Youth, and Families, Rossbrook House, and the Manitoba Schools Im provement Program.

Special grants have also been paid to school divisions for institutional, multisensory, autistic and deaf or hard-of-hearing programs, for special projects such as the truck transportation industry training and wood products manufacturing programs, and to Frontier School Division to ensure that it is able to provide a level of service commensurate with that of other school divisions in the province. At present, both Treasury Board and Cabinet are required to approve payment of these grants.

The dual-approval process currently required under The Public Schools Act is superfluous since Treasury Board has already, through the Estimates process, authorized the grants before Cabinet even sees the request. A Treasury Board minute is provided to Cabinet at Estimates time. This amendment, Mr. Speaker, will permit an expedited payment process for grants while still allowing government to maintain control over the approval process. Thank you. Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to.

Bill 27- The Correctional Services Amendment Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell), that Bill 27, The Correctional Services Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les services correctionnels, be now read a second time and ref erred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, two amend ments are proposed to the Act to allow for the more effective administration of the Act. One

section of the Act contains provisions respecting the exclusion of offenders from the definition of an employee as it could be construed in The Workers Compensation Act. This exclusion was originally intended to exempt offenders in correctional work programs from provincial statutes such as The Employment Standards Act. The effective administration of work programs for offenders requires that these offenders not be excluded from coverage by

section 9, Manitoba regulation 545/88r and that is the declaration of workers and government employment orders. For greater certainty and assuring that

section 57 of The Correctional Services Act does not exclude offenders from this coverage, amendment is proposed specifi cally stating that the

section does not apply in such cases. Mr. Speaker, the federal Prisons and Reformatories Act provides for inmates to earn remission in accordance with any regulation made by a province. Staff from the Constitutional Law Branch initially took the view that the regulations referred to in the federal act are federal statutory instruments, and The Correctional Services Act was enacted without any specific authority to make regulations respecting regulations.

Since then, the constitutional branches of both levels of government agree that the province has concurrent jurisdiction with the federal government to administer remission and that it would be pref erable if the regulations were developed under provincial law.

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1875 Amendment to this other

section of The Correctional Services Act to provide specific authority to make regulations respecting the method of determining compliance with rules and participation and programs for the purpose of granting remission to inmates would remove any doubt that the Lieutenant-Governor-in Council, in making the proposed remission regulations, would be acting within the scope of the regulation-making power granted by the Legislature. I look forward to this bill going to commit tee, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Southdale (Mr.

Reimer), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. * (10:10) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before proceeding with the Supply motion, is there unanimous consent of the House to allow the Minister of Education to table his Supplementary Estimates? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House for the Minister of Education to table the Supple mentary Estimates? [Agreed] Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2000-2001 Estimates for the Department of Education and Training. *** Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, with regard to Supply, is there unanimous consent of the House to consider the Estimates of Industry, Trade and Mines in the Chamber? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to have the Estimates of Industry, Trade and Mines in the Chamber? [Agreed) Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you also canvass the House to determine if there is unanimous consent to consider the Estimates of the Department of Education, and they will be starting up in Room 254. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for the Department of Education to start in Room 254? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, I move that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett). Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the Honour able Government House Leader, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Labour, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty: Industry, Trade and Mines in the Chamber, Highways and Government Services in Room 255, and Edu cation in Room 254. Motion agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. Does the Honourable Minister of Education and Training have an opening statement? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): I do. Mr. Chairman, it is my privilege to place the 2000-2001 Estimates for Manitoba Education and Training before this committee for review. I would like to preface the division-by-division treatment of my department's Estimates by highlighting some of our priorities and accom plishments over the last seven months. Before I do so, I would like to place on the record my appreciation for the work that the staff of Edu-

1876 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 cation and Training do for all Manitobans in creating an education system, public and post secondary education system in the province in Manitoba that, in my opinion, is second to none in the country. I think the civil service deserves tremendous credit for the very, very good work that they do on behalf of all Manitobans, and I want to express my sincere gratitude and appreciation at working with them in this endeavour to create, as I said, the best possible system of public and post-secondary education in our province.

I would like to again thank the civil service for their very, very good work, and I feel privileged to work with them. One of the first things that the Government of Manitoba and myself have done as minister is to arrange meetings with educational stake holders to establish good working relationships and also initiate a pattern of consultation which will characterize our dealings with each other throughout the mandate of this government.

Our exchange of views over the last number of months have been very fruitful and the con sultations have influenced, to a large degree, policy decisions and policy deliberations that have taken place within the Department. I have also made numerous school visits so I could gauge from personal experience what is happening in Manitoba's education system. I have to say that I am very impressed with what I have seen in the public schools of the province of Manitoba.

I am extraordinarily impressed with the people I have met, the teachers, trustees, administrators, parents who dedicate themselves daily to helping children in their charge and the students themselves who are not passive reci pients of instruction but rather active participants in their own learning. I have visited university and community colleges, have met with their presidents, staff and students and have spoken on more than one occasion to students in class. I have also made many visits to the Department and met with staff there.

Again, I wish to thank our hardworking civil servants for their strong commitment and all the work they do on a daily basis to support education excellence in the province of Manitoba. I think we have every reason to be proud of our education system, and here I mean the full spectrum from kindergarten through advanced education and training. I also believe we can look forward to the next five years as a time of great excitement and possibility when we can accomplish great things.

In fact, we have already started with the announcement of increased funding of nearly 30 million new dollars for the K to Senior 4 public education system. Our total contribution grew this year to more than $8 11 million for the 2000-200 1 school year. The Government of Manitoba also increased capital funding this year to about $2 million, which again is the largest amount in over a decade, so that we can begin to address the very real capital deficits in our public school system.

The Government of Manitoba is committed to providing ongoing stable funding, increasing in accordance with economic growth to restore deficits in the system required through the past decade. As importantly, the commitment to ongoing stable funding provides security in terms of long-term business planning for school divisions throughout the province of Manitoba. It is through these means that we can ensure that the education system in Manitoba has integrity.

What I mean by this is that it is responsible to the needs of children, is defined by students themselves, their parents, their teachers, their trustees and other stakeholders in the public school system. The stakes are high because I truly believe that education is the engine that drives healthy communities. It is also a means of economic development and a way of addressing poverty. Education is the basis for creating a healthier and more prosperous Manitoba for all our citizens.

To ensure that students have an opportunity to experience success early in their school life, we cancelled the end of year Grade 3 standards tests and have begun consultation with parents and teachers on a Grade 3 assessment that will be carried out early in the school year starting in 2000-200 1. Early assessment is key to develo ping a strong foundation in reading and mathematics at that grade level. Follow-up throughout the school year will do more to make a child's time in school a success than the previous end of the year Grade 3 standards tests.

With the introduction of the Healthy Child Initiative, Manitoba Education and Training will

June I, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1877 be attending to the needs of the most vulnerable children in Manitoba. The Department of Education's role will be to create parent-child centres in schools and give students a healthy start to life and learning. We will also be working with schools and other social service agencies to create stronger working relationships so children and families will be more effectively served. Our commitment to inclusion is also evident in the approach the Government of Manitoba is taking to the Special Education Review.

The Government is committed to working closely with schools, with parents and with other stakeholders to move forward on the principles of the Special Education Review to determine how inclusion will work in practice. So Franco-Manitoban students can have access to quality education in French, we have also renewed a five-year Canada-Manitoba special funding agreement for gouvemance en fran�Yais. Over the term of that agreement, the Province of Manitoba will provide Division Scolaire Franco-Manitobaine an additional $15 million to assist in meeting its province-wide mandate and obligations.

We have been concerned about the pace of curriculum development and the large number of new curriculum frameworks released in recent years. To give educators more time to master the new frameworks, we have slowed down the pace of development. We have also introduced a new openness in the Department and a greater willingness to look at alternatives and more flexibility in the

interpretation of policy. Over the coming months we intend to lay out a long term strategy for education and invite con sultation with stakeholders in education and members of the general public. I would like to now tum to the post secondary side of the Department and highlight some of our priorities here. They are all informed by our commitment to creating hope and opportunity for young people in the province of Manitoba. Early in our mandate we announced a 10% tuition reduction to ease the burden on students of the cost of their education.

We have increased operating grants to universities and colleges by $8.8 million, as well as provided an additional $2 million to offset tuition increases institutions might otherwise have had to introduce. In early March, the Government of Manitoba launched its college expansion initiative with Dr. Curtis Nordman taking the lead. Dr. Nordman has been working closely with both the Council on Post-Secondary Education and Training and Continuing Education, as well as meeting with the colleges to begin work on a multiyear plan for increasing the college sector in Manitoba.

The expansion has several objectives: increasing capacity especially in high-needs areas, increasing acces sibility to programs and credentials, improving success in completion rates, developing new service delivery approaches and increasing articulation amongst schools, colleges, univer sities, workplaces and other providers of training. The $6-million bursary announcement made near the middle of May is a centrepiece of a strategy to improve student services and reduce both debt levels and default rates amongst Manitoba's post-secondary students.

The program goes into effect this August and will be applied directly against Manitoba student loan debt. It will also be integrated with the Canada Millennium Scholarship bursary to create the greatest financial and program benefits for all eligible students. The bursary program, in effect, will put a cap on students' combined debt load from Canada and Manitoba student loans to about $6,000 per program year for most students. That means it will reduce students' debt load by about $2,300 a year.

Combined with the Canada Millennium Scholarship Program, the Manitoba Bursary will be able to assist over 5500 student-aid recipients this year, which approximates 40 percent of student-aid recipients. With the introduction of the bursary the Province once more plays a supporting role for students in the post secondary system. It is the first time since 1992 that the Government has played that role in terms of a bursary program, and it is worth noting that student leaders from Manitoba's four post-secondary universities and four community colleges played an active role in designing the program.

1878 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 The Government of Manitoba has also announced a $3.5-million expansion grant for the University of Manitoba's Computer Science program. The money is to be used to add new faculty members, purchase new computer equipment so students can be exposed to the very latest technology and build a new 24-seat lab for first year followed by an additional lab in each of the next two years.

The benefits of this grant include an increase in the number of technology graduates; providing a positive research and work environment; ensuring suf ficient university staff; creating an industry university liaison committee to address issues and challenges related to both industry and education. The Department of Education and Training is committed to helping Manitobans acquire the skills, knowledge and experience that they need for employment by linking training to jobs.

The Training and Continuing Education Division oversees the Labour Market Development Agreement which put over 12 600 unemployed Manitobans back to work last year. Training and employment programs last year addressed government priorities and skill shortages in such areas as health care, nursing, the construction industry and the aerospace industry. Working in partnership with individuals, community members, businesses and service providers creates a system that is flexible, accessible and effective. Improved service delivery will continue to provide opportunities and success for all Manitobans.

To meet our commitment to strengthen the Province's apprenticeship and qualification system, the Government of Manitoba is planning to double its size, increase the scope of apprenticeable occupations and make it more accessible to employers, apprentices and trades people. Building on the momentum already generated by its new legislation and provincial funding structure, the expanded system will contribute significantly to solving skill shortages in many Manitoba sectors and businesses. * (10:40) The participation of Manitoba's Aboriginal people in education and the workforce is a concern to all of us.

So more Aboriginal youth can take advantage of opportunities enabling them to contribute and share in the benefits of our growing economy, the Government of Manitoba will be initiating new apprenticeship and training programs. Last November, the Department entered into an agreement with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs to provide resources to the AMC to promote apprenticeship training and qualification in the Aboriginal community. The result will be expanded activity beyond the three construction trades in northern Manitoba to all apprenticeable trades throughout the province.

The Government of Manitoba has had much success over the past several years with Partners for Careers programs, our provincial employ ment placement program for Aboriginal graduates. The office of Partners for Careers has moved to a new storefront location and will now serve as a one-stop shop for information that affects the employment of our Aboriginal citizens. This year we will expand the services we offer with the opening of the Aboriginal Employment Information Centre. We will also build and expand upon the showcase of Aboriginal youth initiatives that was success fully launched last year.

I think you can tell by this brief

summary that there is a lot of exciting work underway in Manitoba Education and Training. The Government of Manitoba is following up on the commitments it made at the beginning of our mandate and moving ahead on new projects that will greatly improve Manitoba's education and training system. The Government of Manitoba will maintain our strong focus on partnership, and in including the stakeholders in our decision-making processes, we have every reason to look forward to an exciting year ahead. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Education and Training for those comments.

Does the Official Opposition critic, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, have any opening comments? Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman, I would also like to ask for leave. Mr. Derkach will be up here, and so I would like

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1879 to ask for leave to share the time for opening statements. Mr. Chairperson: Is there leave? [Agreed} Mrs. Smith: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for attending this Estimates time. I look forward to questioning the Minister of Education on all aspects of your plans and your visions and goals for Manitoba students. I want to talk about, first of all, what we have done as a Tory government in Manitoba schools. We saw a need to revamp the curriculums. We spent a lot of time putting the curriculums together.

We spent a lot of time collaborating with schools, with teachers, with students, asking them what they felt was needed, and their first list of priorities was to make sure that the curriculums were developed. We also began a western protocol procedure, in the area of science initially, and took a look at what was happening not just in Manitoba but all across Canada. We found that what parents and students wanted was consistency throughout Manitoba. We found inconsistency throughout Canada. That was one of the reasons for the western protocol procedure to be put in.

So what we did is we took a look at the core subjects first of all, and those curriculums were revamped. Teachers had input into a major part of input into the development of the curriculums. We had also consultants, Manitoba Education and Training people involved in the develop ment of the curriculums, and the curriculums were well received in the schools themselves. I felt at the time that there were a lot of new curriculums hitting the schools very fast. I would agree with you, Minister, that the time for the curriculums definitely needs to be slowed down.

Having said that, the reception that the new curriculums have received in the schools has been excellent. There was a need for that to happen. Looking at the streams within the schools where the students had to meet the academic and social expectations in an ever changing world and an ever-changing work force, a global workforce, it was expedient for our government, the former Tory government, to put those new curriculums in place, develop the school programs, a part of Manitoba Education and Training, and to develop the program imple mentation part of Education and Training.

Having done that, another part that we found very important for the Province of Manitoba was to put the advisory council for schools in place so parents could have meaningful input into the schools in the area of curriculum, in the area of discipline policies, in the area of school development. Of course, they were always a part of the fundraising, but we expanded the parents' role in a very meaningful way. The regulation was passed in March of '96. Parents then began to have a very meaningful input into the school system.

What the former government wanted to do was to embellish that partnership so parents and teachers had the supports that they needed to make sure that the students and the children here in Manitoba had the best possible educational experience. Having said that, along the way, as things developed, we expanded on different areas of the educational initiatives. We took a look at buil ding business partnerships within the school system. We took a look at all sorts of different aspects of the whole development of the child. The former government also had a big

part in implementing the assessment and evaluation of students across the province. At several parent public forums, we found that it was very necessary for students to be assessed and evaluated in such a way that parents understood the outcomes and understood where their children were working, at what grade level they were working in math, science, language arts, whatever part of the curriculum that the teachers were working on at the point.

Parents at that time said quite strongly that they were dismayed at the fact that they did not always know at what standard or what academic level their children were performing in language arts and reading and writing and the basic core subjects. Having said that, there was an initiative to put forth an outcomes-based evaluation. With the outcomes-based evaluation at the Grade 3, Grade 6, Senior 1 and Senior 4 level, we were

1880 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 able to find out what the child had learned over the year, what their strengths, what their weaknesses were. At the Grade 3 level, we were able to see the profile on the child, what had to be shored up. All those kinds of things were put in for those reasons. So having said that, the former government put in place some initiatives that were very badly needed in this province. As I said before, the curriculum development, the testing assessment and the parental involvement were all a part of what our government wanted to do.

Having said that, we now have to look forward to what our new government is putting into place. Mr. Minister, we look forward to seeing what you are going to be doing in terms of collaboration with parents. I have to point out that before putting in the testing process, we had parental forums and we made sure that the need was there. We talked to teachers, we talked to administrators. This was all a part of the partnership. Now the new government is putting a new direction into place. I am anxious to see what the outcomes are at the end of the four-year period. I will now ask Mr.

Derkach-I have used my 15 minutes, I believe. Am I right? No, can I keep on? Oh, good. How many more do I have? [interjection] Wonderful. Having said that, our Tory government laid a basis that was extremely valuable in the development of our province, the development of our students. We had the vision to work toward a global market. We had the vision to work toward building students up in such a way that they were able to cope with the challenges in the year 2000 and beyond. As you know, Mr.

Minister, at this point in time we are not looking just at a perspective here in Manitoba, but we need to be looking at the global job market and prepare our students for that.

Having said that, with the new curriculums that were put in place, the province was beginning to see that the math was being strengthened, the language arts was being strengthened and the accountability factor in the school system was being recognized. * (10:50) As we all know, as you go through your time, new implementation research shows that it takes at least five years to put a program into place and to make it run smoothly, even beyond five years. So we did a great deal in a very short length of time, and that was a result of the much needed educational reform in this province.

It was needed for the students. It was needed for the teachers. Having said that, I think that the partnership between the parents and the teachers and the educators was one of the most crucial components that we worked on with the curriculums. There were a vast amount of curriculums put forward because it had to be there. The curriculums were so old and so outdated that our students were getting behind. Along with that, the teachers felt pressure, a lot of pressure, and with parent councils I would say 98 percent of them were excellent.

There were some parent councils in my view that put more pressure on teachers, and so that was an ongoing thing that I am sure, Mr. Minister, you will have the opportunity to work with in your time in office. We certainly worked with it on a daily basis to help that partnership grow, so parents and teachers and students were able to work together for the good of the students because schools were built for students, not for anybody else. But that partnership was extremely important. Looking to Manitoba Education and Training, Manitoba Education and Training was expanded because the need was there.

When you develop curriculums, you need to have supports for the schools. In the area of program implementation and the area of program development, in all the core subject areas we needed to have the consultants, the experts, the regional managers in place to ensure that the schools had that support behind them. We do have at this time a different kind of clientele coming into our classrooms on a daily basis because there are new and exciting challenges that we all face every day. With the changing job market, with two parents that often have to work to make a living, we have new challenges coming forward.

We have children

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 81 who need to be supervised at a young age. We have teachers meeting challenges of different types of students in our schools with different types of needs. They have a tremendous job to do, and I must say that I have a tremendous respect for teachers. I taught for 22 years myself. My husband is still a teacher. We have many friends who are teachers across the province, and we hear on a daily basis and understand very clearly the types of challenges that are there.

Our former Tory government needed to have the curriculums put in place, needed to have the parent advisory councils in place, so parents became equal partners with the schools. Teachers had the support that they needed to meet the challenges that are there because in our educational system our government believed that education was a 50-50 partnership between the parents and between the teachers. The most important aspect, I must say, Mr. Minister, that we have to keep very clear in our minds is the students that we have to service.

We have to make sure that they reach the highest academic standards, that they are able to reach out into an ever-changing global job market. We need to prepare them not only to work here in Manitoba but to work in all parts of the world and be successful, happy people. We need to meet the new challenges that we face every day. We need to be able to build networks with our social services, with our health care, with our justice system to shore up the students and the parents who need those kinds of supports here across Manitoba.

I personally am very dedicated to the education of our students here in Manitoba, as I am sure you well know, and I am sure you are as well. Also, I think that the kinds of decisions that we make here at the government level possibly are why we have such vigorous debates at times, because the belief systems that we put into place are crucial to the students across Manitoba.

I must put on the record and emphasize that the most important thing that we need to do is to work in collaboration with our parents, with our teachers, with our students and with the administrators across Manitoba, so we listen very carefully to what the needs are. I would say that having been in education for a great deal of years, having worked in Manitoba Education and Training, having worked in schools across Manitoba, I must say that we are in a very exciting time now. I think that the opportunity to support the system is there.

We have to be very careful that political agendas are not sort of looked at or taken into serious consideration. What we need to take into serious consideration are the academic and social needs of the students right in the classroom. This spmt of collaboration is very important, so when I question you during our time in Estimates, please keep in mind that my first consideration are the students here in Manitoba. I would hope that we could have helpful and meaningful dialogue.

I know that we are in two different political parties, but I think we share the concern for the students here in Manitoba, and the questions and the suggestions that I made are not just mine, but they are based on questions and suggestions that I have heard from all across Manitoba. I would like this to be a very beneficial time where we can work together in this aspect. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic from the Official Opposition for those remarks and will now allow the Member for Russell the last 15 minutes. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Chair, my specific responsibility is post-secondary, but indeed I think the two areas overlap, with the Minister having responsibility for both areas. I know our questioning will overlap as well. Mr. Caldwell: Lucky me. Mr. Derkach : Yes, lucky you. First of all, allow me, as a member of the Official Opposition responsible for part of the area of Education, to welcome the Minister to his first session of Estimates. I also want to pass my con gratulations on through him to the new Deputy Minister of Education, whom I have had the privilege of working with. I know that his commitment to education is total.

I know he has

1882 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 worked in that field for a long time and his interests are certainly in that area. I know that we will have some philosophical differences in terms of the approaches that are taken to the challenges that lie before us in education. I know that those philosophical differences will certainly come out through our questioning and through the answers, but we will try to keep them to a minimum, where we can perhaps focus our attention more on how we can improve the quality of education for the students and the youth of our province.

I was not present when the Minister made his comments, but I thank him for sharing with me the written copy. I would just like to address the areas in the post-secondary area perhaps in the order he had addressed them in his comments. With regard to our universities, I think that it is fair to say that, regardless of your political stripe in Manitoba. governments in Manitoba I think over the years have tried to improve the lot of education in this province for students in universities, but we have taken different approaches to that. Not always is money the answer to the problems and the challenges in education.

You can dump all the money you like at a problem sometimes, but it does not resolve the challenge and the issue. In this regard I know that we would like to make education free for students in Manitoba if we could afford it. However, that is just not a reality. So, therefore, there is the issue of tuition. The Minister and the government have moved ahead with a I 0% tuition reduction to ease the burden on the student's pocketbook.

I have to say that on the surface this may be a laudable position to take and one that all of us would applaud, but I think that what happens is the impact on our universities is something that has to be considered as well. I know that the Minister cannot do everything at once.

I know that we talk about balance and we talk about fairness, but I think that we have to keep a very close eye on what is happening to the universities as a result of the tuition freeze because what it does is it impacts on the university's ability to be able to continue the programs they have and to be able to expand them and to be able to keep up with other institutions across the country.

I know that the Minister will be keeping an eye on this, because this is indeed a very important issue, because if our universities start to fall behind their position where it is today relatively speaking to other universities, then this creates a problem for us as a province to attract the quality students that we need in our universities. It impacts on retaining the youth that are leaving our high schools and are looking for quality institutions to attend. In that regard I might add a personal note, because I do have three young chaps who are now leaving horne and entering post-secondary education.

One of my boys has been in post secondary for two years, chose an institution outside our province. Unfortunately for us he did that because he was looking for a program that was not available in our province. Now the second one is going to be graduating this year and again is leaving the province because the program that he is looking for is not available in our province. We have to be mindful of those things to allow opportunities for youth in Manitoba to be able to get their education opportunities here.

To that extent I have to say that the college expansion initiative is one that I would not criticize personally, because I think our government was moving in that direction and certainly this Minister is moving in that direction. That certainly has to be commended. I do not believe, though, that you can double the enrollment in our universities or in our colleges within the time frame of the mandate.

That is something that I think has to be a longer term goal, because if you look at the infrastructure, if you look at the resources that we have, the human resources that we have, you would have to be a magician to be able to do that in a very short period of time. Although the goal is laudable and one that I would applaud and I think we all want to see more students, especially students who are now from the sectors of society that are now not finding ways to access post-secondary, I think

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 83 we all want to make sure that they have an opportu nity to access post-secondary education. *(1 10 0) Here I speak of the Aboriginal students who disproportionately are not represented properly at our post-secondary level or even in our high school level, fo r that matter.

I think we have to do whatever it is we can in a co-operative way to try and provide opportu nities for them to have access to post-secondary institutions, because that is the only way that they will raise their lot in lif e, and it is the only way that they will get out of the-even the gang situations that we have today are a result of the fa ct that they do not access the educational and the work avenues of society the way they should. I think that that is recog nized and has been fo r a long time by the people of Manitoba and by governments on both sides. The question is: How do we best address it?

Certainly by allowing fo r increased enrolment in our post-secondary institutions and perhaps rea ching out to try and create programs that are going to be of value to them is the way that we should approach it. In my years as Minister of Education, it was fo ur years in the early mandate of our government, and I have to say that during that period of time we did put in an earnest eff ort and even after that to try and attract more Aboriginal students into our post-secondary institutions. I think over time we have done that, but cert ainly not as quickly as we would like. Can I just ask how my time is, Mr. Chair?

Mr. Cha irperson: Another eight minutes. Mr. Derkacb: So, Mr. Minister, I think that at the outset those are certai nly things that we endorse in terms of an overall goal. In terms of how we achieve them, though, is something that we have to be very caref ul about in terms of ensuring that we have the capability and that we do not move ahead too quickly and all of a sudden find ourselves not being able to do what it is that we wanted to do in the beginning. The one thing that I find missing in this budget, and it is a pet peeve of mine, I guess, is the distance delivery of education.

That to me is the way that we have to move in order to be able to give opportunities to people who do not live in our urban centres. Even those who live in other urban areas of the province require the ability to access programs in other ways than physically going to an institution. I visited the Athabasca University a fe w years ago and the director of the Red River Colleg e, I bel ieve, moved to Alberta and took over the Athabasca college. It is a distance education centre. We were given an opportunity to examine the programs and the development of programs at that university.

The university does not have any students on campus, and yet it delivered programs to about 20 000, I bel ieve, at that time, university and colle ge students. I think that is an impor tant area to explore, not only to explore, because in my term as Education Minister we did embark on the FYDE program, and it was the first year of university education through distance delivery. Unfortun ately, that has stalled. Universities in Manitoba were reticent to go ahead with that program because they wanted students on campus.

We pushed the issue to the extent that we were able to deliver the first year through distance delivery. Now, the degree of success varied in dif fe rent communities, and I think that we need to continue to push in that direction, and we need to develop the second year and the third year of university and perhaps even col lege programs more adequately fo r the students who do not live in the city of Winnipeg or, for that matter, in Brandon. It would also do a tremendous amount of good fo r us to deliver programs in northern Manitoba.

During my time as Minister of Rural Development, I embarked on discussions with the people of Nunavut who do access educational programs through Edmonton, and yet Manitoba is losing out on these valuable people and being able to deliver programs to them because we do not have a method of delivery into those are as. I would encourage the

1884 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 Minister that this is an area in the post-secondary field that has to be explored and has to be expanded, and we need to invest dolla rs in that are a.

Although I do not see any attention paid to that parti cular area in this budget, this is the first budget however, and I would hope and I would encourage the Minister that that is an area we should look at in terms of opportunity, in terms of being able to increase enrolment in our post secondary institutions, and, most importa ntly, the ability to give opportunity to those people who live in remote areas and cannot access the educational opportunities in the standard way. I notice that the Minister also talks about part nerships of Manitoba's Aboriginal people in education and the workf orce.

One of the things that I was encouraging in my term as Rural Development Minister, because I had res ponsibility fo r the North, as well, to a certain extent, was the development of sites outside of the city for Aboriginal people. I know that we do not have enough of them, but they cannot be specifically fo r Aboriginal people.

I think that we developed those centres to give access to anybody who lives in remote areas of the province, in the northern parts of this province, regard less of whether they are Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal, but indeed the fo cus and I guess the predominant population in these areas would be Aboriginal. Theref ore, I would certainly want to know more about the Minister's intentions in that regard and what investment he is planning to make with regard to the expansion of programs in that regard . In conclusion, Mr.

Chair, this is the first set of Estimates, the first budget that the Minister is presenting to us and that we have an opportunity to ask questions about.

I certainly look fo rward to that, not so much in an adversarial and combative way but, more importa ntly, in a way where we can explore the exact intentions of government, perhaps, and look at the investments, examine them so that at the end of the day we all have a better understanding, but indeed perhaps we can add something to the quality of education that the youth in Manitoba and the people who are in our educational institutions are experiencing as well as the people who work in these institutions who we have to, I think we general ly speaking have to support, put our arms around, because they are doing a tremendous amount of good fo r the youth and the people of our pro vince.

Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Member fo r Russell (Mr. Derkach) for completing the opening remar ks. We will now move on to the Estimates. Under Manitoba prac tice, debate of the Minister's Salary is tra ditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a departm ent. Accordingly, we shall def er consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. Bef ore we do that, we invite the Minister's staf f to join us at the table and we ask that the Minister introduce his staf f present. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, I would like to introduce Mr. Tom Thompson and Dr.

Ben Levin fr om the Department of Education and Training. They will assist me with their wisdom and knowledge as we go through Estimates today. I would also like bef ore completing to thank the critics for their comments. I fo und them very pleasant and useful. I think that the idea of mutual co-operation in developing educational excellence in the province of Manitoba is one that we can all agree to here. Thank you. *(11:10) Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister for those comments. We will now proceed to line 16.1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $505,600 on page 57 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, we would like to go to another place right now. We would like to start with School Programs rather than going through people's salaries right now, if that is acceptable to everybody. Mr. Chai rperson: I would like to know what line it is fr om the Member fo r Fort Garry . Mrs. Smith : Could we go to the Estimates of Expenditure, and I would like to start, please, on

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 85 page 58 under School Progr ams. If we can start there, that would be very much appre ciated. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Is there leave to move to resolution 16 .2. School Program s? Mr. Caldwell: No, Mr. Chairman. We would like to go through it in- Mr. Chai rperson: Leave has been denied. We will now proceed to line 16. 1 .(

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $505,600 on page 57. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, the Administra tion and Finance, we can start with that, if that so be your wish, rather than going into the actual heart of the document. Could you please, Mr. Minister, explain this page to me, the Administration and Finance, Salaries and Employee Benefits? Mr. Caldwell: Well, the first line, Mr. Chair man, Managerial, represents in 2000-2001 one fu ll-time equivalent. As we move across the page on that line, the second column rep resents salary alloca tion fo r that managerial position of $112 ,000.

In 19 99-2000, as we fo llow that line, fu ll-time equivalent was the same, the one fu il time equivalent with a salary of $121, 700 fo r a net reduction of $1 0,000. The second line, Prof essional/Technical, has three fu ll- time equivalents for a total salary of $14 8,300. In 19 99-2000 the repre sentation was again three fu ll-time equivalents for a total salary of $1 46,800. There is an increase of a thousand dollars roughly, a little bit over one thousand dolla rs.

Administrat ive Support Staff, the third item, five fu ll-time equivalents in 2000-2001 fo r a salary range of $1 84,800; 19 99-2000 also rep resented five fu ll -time equivalents fo r a total of $1 86,800 repre senting again a net reduction of just over a thousand dolla rs. Employee Benefits in both the years 2000 and 2001 repre sents $46,000 in benefits; in 19 99-2000 $46, 10 0, a decrease of $10 0 in total. Those fo ur employee sections, nine full-time equivalents for a total of $491,10 0 in 2000-2001. In 19 99-2000, again we had nine full-time equivalents fo r a total of $50 1 ,400.

We had a net reduction of appr oximately $1 0,000, $9,700. There are other costs and benefits associated with those nine employees. In 2000-200 1, the sum is $1 8,400 and in 19 99-2000 was $1 0,000. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Minister, Other Costs and Benefits, what does that mean? What are the other costs and benefits? Mr. Caldwell: Merit increments and reclassi fications, employee benefit adjustments, increased secondment salary requirements; those are the areas that represent that. Mrs. Smith: Could you please explain to me what increased secondment salaries mean?

Like, would that be when you second, well, I know when I was seconded there is a certain salary you got. Can you explain to me what that means? Mr. Caldwell: The Deputy Minister was secon ded fr om the University of Manitoba and the majority of that repre sents the differences in his salary level fr om the University of Manitoba and his position with the provincial government. Mrs. Smith: Can you tell us what his salary is? Mr. Caldwell: Oh, top line, $1 1 2,000. In Other Expenditures 16. l .(

b) Trans porta tion expenditures in the Estimates fo r 2000- 2001 are $22,000; Estimates for 19 99-2000 are $22,000 fo r no change. Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister please go back just to the Allowance fo r Staff Turnover. Could you explain to me what that means? I am not clear on that. Mr. Caldwell: It is an automatic number in every appr opriation and it allows fo r the assumption that there will be some staff turnover in any given year, costs associated with turnover. Mrs. Smith: Please continue with the Trans portat ion. Mr.

Caldwell: Again, Transportat ion in 2000- 200 1 repre sents $22,000; 19 99-2000 also represents $22,000 fo r no net change. Com munications is the next item in going down the

18 86 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 page in that column, in 2000-2001 repre sented $1 8,400 in terms of the Estimates; in 19 99-2000 also repr esented $1 8,400 in the 19 99-2000 Estimates fo r no net change. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Minister, could you explain to me exactly what the transportat ion involves with Administration and Finance. What exactly does that mean? Mr. Caldwell: It is a typical line item in the Estimates including vehicular transportat ion, air tra nsportation, taxi and one would assume buses. Mrs. Smith: To clarify that, buses and tra ns portat ion for whom?

Is that Manitoba Education and Training or is it directly the-what part of the staf f does this include? Mr. Caldwell: It is the Minister's staff and deputy staff. Mrs. Smith: Could you explain also the Communications? What exactly does that mean? Mr. Caldwell: Page 204 of the Estimates docu ment provides glossary

definitions of all the terms that are under question here, and Communication includes telephone, electronic communication services, postal services, adver tising, radio systems and others, but if the Member would refer to pages 204-205 perhaps the answers to most of these questions may be provided there. Mrs. Smith: Yes, thank you. I just received the Estimates book about two minutes bef ore I walked into this room- Mr. Caldwell: You too? Mrs.

Smith: Yes, and as you know we have asked fo r it over a period of time, so I was not aware that that glossa ry was in place at the back, so if you will bear with me, these are the questions that I need to know. Ple ase continue. *( II :20) Mr. Caldwell: Sure. As we go down that first column then, past Other Expenditures, past Tra nsportation which remain constant, past Communications which remain constant, both fo r 2000-200 1 and then 19 99-2000 budget, we come to Supply and Services in 2000-2001 repre sented $26,600; again in 19 99-2000 that figure remained the same at $26,600.

That is fu rther broken down to represent Repairs and Maintenance/Rentals, 9.8; again in 19 99-2000, 9.8. Prof essional Services repre sents I; again in 19 99-00 repre sented 1; Other 15 .8; 19 99, 15 .8. Continuing down that column, Bank and Finance Charges represent $200; in 19 99-2000, the estimate also reflected $200, for no change. Capital, in the Estimates fo r 2000-2001 $3,000; in 19 99-2000 also repre sented $3,000, fo r no change between the two Estimates years.

Continuing down the Other Expenditures column, Other Operat ing, in 2000-0 1 the estimate repre sents $26,600; in 19 99-2000 the estimate was also $26,600, repr esenting no change. Mrs. Smith: In Other Operating, when we talk about the $26,000, specifically who is that fo r? That is fo r, I understand-no, go ahead, please, Mr. Minister. Mr. Caldwell: There are other opera ting costs associated with the Minister's office and the deputy's office, including-[interjecti on] Mr. Chairperson: I just want to remind you that the rules are this way. Someone can speak for 30 minutes without interru ption. Okay?

You cannot just interrupt the speaker. You might want to take notes and come back at the end of it unless there is an agr eement with the Minister. Mr.

Caldwell: If I could just finish, the other opera ting costs, which I should note in 19 99-00 represented $26,600 and again in 2000-2001 represented $26,600, so it was equal, I guess, between the two administrations, includes such items as overnight stays in hotels, fo od and beverage costs associated with those stays, computer-related charges associated with office operating, insurance costs associated with trave l and office opera tions, publication costs associated with the Minister's and deputy's office, other personnel costs including relocation costs and transf er costs fo r senior staff if they occur, other items including membership fe es in prof essional associations, costs associated with

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 87 hospitality, employment trammg with con fe rence and/or convention registra tion fe es. Mrs. Smith: I would ask you, please, I know in the other Estimates when a question came up, what they did was listen and just have the opportunity to answer. Could you clarif y the rules fo r me? I do not want to upset Ms. Barr ett. What I want to do is be able to ask the questions that I need to ask. If you could clarif y the rules fo r me, that would be very helpf ul. Mr.

Chairperson: I understand that the rules are such that the Minister and the critic have 30 minutes to give the question or answer it, respond to the question. I also understand if the Member has several questions, they also have 30 minutes to put their questions fo rward. Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Chairperson, as I was saying, Other Operating costs associated with the $26,600, which I note was the same in the 19 99- 2000 Estimates as well as the 2000 Estimates, are associated with costs fo r overnight stays, accommodations fo r overnight stays, fo od and beverage associated with overnight stays, associated with the Minister's and deputy's of fice; computer-related charges associated with the operating expenses of those offices; insurance costs associated with the opera tions of the of fices; publications as they occur fr om time to time associated with the of fices of the Minister and the Deputy Minister; other personnel costs related to relocations and transfer costs as they occur fr om time to time; other costs, for example, membership fe es in prof essional associations or other organizations that the Minister's or Deputy's of fice may undertake to enter into; hospitality costs associated with the operation of the of fices; employee training costs associated with prof essional development in the offices of the deputy or Minister; conf erence and/or con vention registrat ion fe es of which we undertake a number in the Department of Education and Training; incidental allowances which occur fr om time to time.

Again, I would refer the Member to the gl ossary on page 204, where many of these are detailed. Mrs. Smith: Could you tell me, Mr. Minister, when you are listing all these costs, who specifically are these fo r? Is it strictly fo r your of fice? Mr. Caldwell: The Administration and Finance, page 16 , 1.(b ), are associated with the staff, the nine employees associated with the Minister's and Deputy Minister's of fices. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Minister, who are these specifically? Mr. Chai rperson: Excuse me. When you have questions, please put them through the Chair, okay. Address the Chair. Mrs. Smith: Okay, thank you.

Mr. Chair, could the Minister please tell me who those nine people are ? Mr. Caldwell: We have Dr. Benjamin Levin, Annalea Mitchell. Nicole LaRoche, Yolande Choiselat; support secreta ries, Y anning Zhao, Pearl Domienik; Debbie Milani, Diana McClymont and Monique Rowson. We are on a first-name basis in our office, no sirs or madams, or ministers fo r that matter. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, there are certain areas that I would like to address. I do not intend to go page by page over every item, depending on how long you want to be here, but there are certain areas that I would like to address, however.

If the Minister prefers going page by page, that is fine as well. Could you give me some direction in that? * (11 :30) Mr. Chairperson: I would like to clarif y. Do you want to do global questions on each section, each resolution? Or do you want to do it line by line? Mrs. Smith: What I would like to do is go through the book very thorou ghly. I guess I am questioning why we started with Administra tion and Finance. I wanted to start right at the departmental organization structure, because I had some questions there. Could you give me guidance as to how we should go back and start there?

18 88 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 guidance as to how we should go back and start there? Mr. Chairperson : I would like to inform the Member fo r Fort Garry, we must go line by line through our Estimates unless leave is granted to do otherwise. Mrs. Smith: I have leave then to start at the beginning fo r the structure of Manitoba Education and Training. I am very curious. I have some questions here as to the actual dia gram on page II . Point of Order Mr.

Derkach: I believe it is customary in the Estimates process fo r some latitude to be given in terms of the questions that are asked by the critic. We respect the fa ct that the Minister does not have staf f from every department of the Department of Education here. In general terms. within the fram ework of a parti cular section. I think it has been general ly accepted that we are allowed some latitude in the questions that are asked.

Under Administration and Finance, I believe it gives us a fa ir bit of latitude in terms of the administrative side of the depar tment, where we can pose some questions, including the organi zational chart and many of those areas as well. I know our critic is new, the Minister is new as well. It is just if we can find some common ground in terms of how we proceed here. Mr. Chai rperson: I thank the Member fo r Russell. Is there leave granted to have a global discussion on resolution 16. 1 with the exception of I. (

a) Minister's salary? {Agreed] *** Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, with leave, could we go back to the actual structure that clarifies a lot of the reasons fo r the salaries and things like that on page 11 of the Supplem entary Inf orm ation for Legislative Review? Mr. Chairperson: I would just like to point out to the Member fo r Fort Garry that the Supple mentary is all contained in Resolution 16 .1, and what we approve is the Main Estimates not the Supplementary . We have agreement to have a global discussion on Resolution 16 .1, and we should continue there. Mrs.

Smith : Could we talk about the make-up of Manitoba Education and Tra ining, Mr. Chair? I would like him to explain the actual make-up of what is happening at Education and Training in terms of the global structure. Mr. Caldwell: Well, I suppose in terms of the global structure of Education and Training and looking at the flow charts or the org charts on page 11 of the Estimates document, there was considerable stream lining that took place within the Department with a view to creating greater ef ficiencies within the Department and having cost savings, from the bureaucratic point of view I suppose.

The Department went from two deputy-! see one of the deputies patting his head back there. We went from two deputy ministers to one deputy minister, and there are a number of other ef ficiencies that were achieved in terms of creating cleaner lines of authority and reductions in terms of senior staff and senior staffing positions with the view to freeing up resources fr om the administration of the office of the Minister, and trying to, fra nkly, put resources back into the classroom and away from the senior management.

There were a number of ef ficiencies that were made, as I have mentioned, going fr om two deputies to one deputy. There were some other changes made in terms of the ADM components. I am sorry. There were three deputies and we went to one. The head of the Council on Post-Secondary Education, I am just advised was also at the deputy rank. The Government of Manitoba, this administration, went from three deputy minister positions to one deputy minister at substantial cost savings fo r the administration of the of fice. In terms of ADMs, it went from five ADM positions to three ADM positions.

The major reasons, as I ar ticulated, were twof old: (1) to create cleaner lines of administration in decision making; and (2) to free up resources from the office of the Minister fo r classroom programs basically. Sound business practices as it were.

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 89 Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, could the Minister explain, I know there have been some new people come on board to help shore up the kind of support you need in the Minister's of fice, could we elaborate on any tra ining? Can we go on then, Mr. Chair, to the Training and Education part of the flow chart or should we continue line by line? We can do that if you pref er. I think you are more comf ortab le with that. Let us go ahead then, and we will go back to the line by line because we will still get the questions then. Mr. Chair person: Excuse me.

The Member fo r Fort Garry is asking here what method to use. We have given you leave fo r a global discussion on Resolution 16 .1. Mrs. Smith: I was just consulting, Mr. Chair, whether or not I could ask questions about the additional staf f at this time that has been put on, or should we save that to another time? Mr. Chairperson : Global consideration has been given fo r Resolution 16 .1. Go ahead. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, at this time I would like to ask the Minister, I appreciate the fa ct that he is trying to cost save in terms of deputy ministers and ADMs.

Could you explain the additional staf f that has come on board to support your of fice, please? *(1 1 :40) Mr. Caldwell: Just a clarification, does the Member mean my of fice directly? There were a number of reductions in senior staf f, so I am not sure to which the Member speaks. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, I would like to talk about the new consultants you have on board right now who have come. Are there no new people on board to support the Minister's of fice? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, if it is my of fice directly, my staf f complement is the same.

In fa ct, I think it is one reduced fr om the previous administration, because we do not have a special adviser right now. Mrs. Smith: Then I will save that question fo r a little later under another category . Could the Minister please examine the structure of Education and Tra ining under the headings that we see here? It is altered considerably fr om what we had bef ore. Could you pl ease explain the rea soning behind the structure that you have put fo rward here? Mr. Caldwell: The flow chart is not too gre atly altered fr om the previous year.

The major points, as I indicated a few minutes ago, were to reduce the number of I suppose of fices, that decision to create easier flow-through decision making, going fr om three deputies to one and five ADMs to three. So it is twof old, one to increase the ef ficiency of the decision-making process in the flow-through that takes place when decisions are made, and secondly to fr ee up resources fr om the bureaucrat ic side of things fo r the Department to use more eff ectively in classroom delivery, fr ee up those resources fr om the Minister's and deputies' offices. Mrs.

Smith: Could we go specifically to the Schools Division under Gerald Farthing? Under Program Development, could the Minister please explain the structure very specifically in terms of the regional managers and the actual consultants that are available fo r the schools for support? Mr. Caldwell: That is not part of 16 .1. That resides in 16 .2, and I would be happy to deal with it when we get to 16 .2. Mrs. Smith: I thought we were having a global discussion, but leaving it until 16 .2 would be just fine. Could we go to the ADM, Pat Rowantree?

Could you explain exactly what is done under Management Services under Bob Gorchynski? Mr. Caldwell: Again, that

part icular item is under 16 .6. We are dealing with 16 .1 right now. I would be pleased to discuss that under 16 .6; 16 .1 ref ers to where Management Services and Executive Director Bob Gorchynski relates to in terms of reporting. The duties are outlined in 16 .6 and I would be pleased to discuss that under 16 .6. Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister please explain under Student Financial Assistance what exactly is involved under the student financial assistant

18 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 and who is involved in that particular aspect of Manitoba Education and Training? Mr. Caldwell: That is under 16 .7, Mr. Chair, and I would be very pleased to discuss-the details of these are all contained in fu ture sections of the Estimates. I would be pleased to go through them under those are as. What we are dealing with right now in 16. 1 is the reporting structure basically. Mrs. Smith: In view of the answers, I think what we will do is just stick to Administration and Finance then. My understanding of global was perhaps dif f erent from the Minister's.

So what we will do is stick strictly to Admini stration and Finance and perhaps at the time when he has more staf f here and is more prepared fo r those other sections we will go to there at that time. Could I just ask, Mr. Derkach would like to ask a question? Mr. Derkach: My question has to deal with the consolidation of the administrative level in the department on the Deputy Minister's side. Previously in the old administration we had two deputies, one responsible fo r the K-to- 12 side and then the post-secondary deputy as well.

In total what number of staff were eliminated by the amalgamation of the two deputy ministers' of fices? Mr. Caldwell: There were a number of rede ployments as we moved through the flow chart in terms of actual people. There was one less person in the chart in terms of redeployment and reallocation of resources. We went fr om, as I mentioned earlier, five to three ADMs and three to one OMs, but in terms of people, one. Mr. Derkach: So in essence, when the Minister says that we reduced staf f and streamlined processes, actually the total reduction of staf f was one. Mr.

Caldwell: In terms of actual bodies, that is corr ect. The existing people were redeployed into other jobs. Mr. Derkach: Can the Minister tell me which staffperson was reduced? Mr. Caldwell: Jim Glen's position is a vacant position. Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance, I am sorry . Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, may I ask the Minister where that responsibility now lies in terms of the ADM of Finance on the post-secondary side? Just fo r clarification, Mr. Jim Glen was responsible fo r the Admin-Finance area, was the ADM of Admin-Finance. My question is: Where has that responsibility now been consolidated? Mr.

Caldwell: Admin and Finance fo r the de partment is now the Deputy Minister's respo nsibility. Mr. Derkach: So the Deputy Minister of Education now also assumes the responsibility of the ADM of Finance as well? Mr. Caldwell: In the department as a whole, there is a Director of Finance that reports directly to the Deputy Minister. In terms of the Public Schools Finance, the responsibility is the ADM of Public Schools, Dr. Gerald Farthing. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chair, with regard to the division of responsibilities from post-secondary and the public school side, there was a division under the fo rmer administration with regard to the deputy ministers' of fices. Although the Minister had overall responsibility fo r both divisions, the deputy ministers were responsible for the two dif f erent sections, the post-secondary

section and the K to 12 . Now we have gone back and have amalgamated to what I guess used to be, perhaps with some modifications, and, of course, the Government of the day certa inly has the prerogative to consolidate and amalgamate departme nts. I guess my concern is the fa ct that the division was done largely to reflect the workload and the extensive responsibilities that lie in the area of education. This is a huge department. It is a huge responsibility fo r even the Minister, for that matter.

I contend that at some point in time in the future some administration will look at the wisdom of perhaps even splitting that department so that we do have a manageable workload and, I think, a more ef f ective one. However, that is something fo r the fu ture.

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 91 * (1 1 :50) My questions and my concerns lie in that, on the staf f side we have consolidated, however, we have not saved anything. We have simply amalgamated the positions. But there has not been any saving of any sort at this point in time, which means that someone suf f ers. Here I am suggesting that the post-secondary side has now got less representation and less support than what it did when there were people who were assigned specifically to deal with post-secondary issues.

I know this is a philosophical approach of a dif f erent sort and the Minister certainly I know will respond to that. In the administration side, I would like to know, now that we have consolidated into the Deputy Minister's of fice the responsibilities fr om post-secondary, who it is that he has now assigned to deal specifically with colleges and with the universities who used to be dealt with by ADMs and the deputy and post-secondary . Mr. Caldwell: Well, the same structure exists in terms of reporting.

The chairperson fo r the Council on Post-Secondary Education continues to report to the Minister, and the Executive Director of the Council on Post-Secondary Education, Dr. Leo LeTourneau, continues to report to the Deputy Minister. I do not know if that responds to your question. I sure appreciate the support for getting bigger staff in there though. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr.

Chair, again I know I have to give the Minister some latitude here, but my concern is that you cannot simply take a division of a department away and say that, well, the reporting structure will now be to the Deputy Minister and the Minister and the world is back to normal. I know that our post-secondary institutions are going to adjust to whatever the structure that is put bef ore them is. However, we have heard fr om the Government that their emphasis is on providing greater and better services to youth in Manitoba, to educational opportunities in Manitoba.

I want the Minister to explain to me how this squares with the fa ct that now we have taken an entire division, the post-secondary division, and consolidated it within the entire departm ent rather than having it as a stand-alone division of the department which had a specific mandate, and that was to ensure that they re presented and dealt with the challenges of the post-secondary side. So I guess the issue fo r me is that I need an explanation on how the Minister is going to deal with those issues. I do not think it is good enough just to say, well, now they will just report to the Deputy.

I think I need a much more clear explanation on how that is going to happen. Mr. Caldwell: Well, apart fr om the tremendous energy, skill and wisdom of the Deputy Minister of Education and Training, the reporting fu nction of the Council on Post-Secondary Education is, again, the chairperson of that directly to myself . The Executive Director of the Council on Post-Secondary Education reports through the Deputy Minister. We do have an ADM responsible fo r the post-secondary side of the Education and Training Ministry.

What we have done is have basically the Deputy Minister's role, previously, in large measure assumed by an ADM position reporting, again, through the Deputy Minister. I appreciate the concern expressed by the Member in terms of workload certa inly, because I know that the Departm ent, as the Member knows, is a very complex and dif ficult one to manage at times, but it is impor tant to note that Manitoba has gone back and fo rth over the years in this par ticular matter.

My deputy just advises me he recalls that when the Member was minister there was only one OM here as well, so I thank both the Deputy and the Member fo r their historical memory of this particular fa ct. But I think that in terms of the stream lining of the decision making, that guided our decision in this regard . I fe el quite comf orta ble that with the Assistant Deputy Minister of Training and Continuing Education, Pat Rowantree, and working with the Deputy Minister, Dr. Ben Levin, that we have got in place a very good org chart in this regard . Mr. Derkach: Well, I guess this is where the Minister and I

part in terms of our approach to

1892 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 education because, yes, at one time when I was Minister of Education and Training, there was only one deputy for the entire department. However, the Minister, through his research, would know that the Department was structured quite differently at that point in time, and there were a lot of supports for post-secondary that were built into the system even though at that time the colleges were still part of the Department, as well. So there were a lot of other supports.

What my issue is is that we had a deputy minister of post-secondary education for the last four years, I believe, or five years, who had responsibility-and the time frame may be a little out in terms of four or five years-to the post secondary side of Education. In other words, universities and colleges could go directly to that deputy minister whose focus and whose attention was basically aimed at the post secondary side. So, therefore, with the chal lenges that we have on the post-secondary side. there is a requirement, I believe, for the Deputy Minister to have that attention given to those institutions.

I know, as well, that Dr. Ben Levin is extremely capable. I had the pleasure of working with him, and I know that he is indeed a capable individual who can address many of those concerns, but it goes beyond human ability to be able to address issues.

It goes to the fact that someone has to have the attention of the universities, of the colleges, and given the fact that we now have given colleges their autonomy and we want to double the enrolment, as the Government has indicated-it wants to double the enrolment of our colleges; it wants to expand the opportunities for post-secondary education for Aboriginal students-I contend that indeed we have not really done a credit to the post secondary side in the administration by simply amalgamating everything under one deputy minister.

I also understand that the ADM in Training and Continuing Education has a responsibility to that area, but the university presidents and the universities themselves will tell you that it is not the same as having someone who is at the Deputy Minister's level to be able to deal with the issues of those institutions. It is quite different in dealing with a director or dealing with an ADM rather than dealing with the Deputy Minister responsible for a department. Now, know that that is a basic philosophical difference.

However, that aside, I want to be assured by the Minister that indeed the Department is going to meet the needs of the post-secondary institutions, the colleges, the training programs, the universities by providing adequate resources to those areas. The Minister may tell me that what you are asking me to do is spend more money, and my response to that is no.

What I am asking you to do is to invest more resources in those key areas, because if we are to keep pace with what is happening in other jurisdictions in terms of post secondary education and if we are to maintain our level, there are certain things that have to happen, and with the move to reduce tuition fees for students and then disallowing the ability of universities and post-secondary institutions to increase tuitions too, so that programs can be maintained- Mr. Chairperson: The time being 12 noon, I am interrupting the proceedings.

The Committee of Supply will resume sitting this afternoon following the conclusion of Routine Pro ceedings. HIGHWAYS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICE& * (10:30) Madam Chairperson (Bonnie Korzeniowski): Good morning. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Government Services. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will follow in a global manner with all line items to be passed once the questioning has been completed. The floor is now open for questions.

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 93 Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Government Services): I just want to bring back some inf ormation fr om the previous day's questioning. First of all, questions were raised as to our prac tices for the purchase of gasoline and how that compares with the City of Winnipeg. I want to indicate to members of the committee that the City has discontinued their gas-purchasing policy and they have begun to use rack pricing. This is basically the same system that we have been using in this province.

Our understanding is that they started using rack pricing two years ago. So I want to put that on the record. Perhaps the critic might be able to communicate that to the Member who had asked the question, the Member fo r St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau). Second of all, there was a question in terms of potential contamination at the Gimli site. I have a map that outlines potential contaminated areas and can advise the Member that Manitoba Conservation is currently monitoring the site. What I will do is perhaps provide this map to the Member. Probab ly I should of ficially table it too fo r the committee.

So I will table it now and then that will be available. I appreciate the Member's question, as well. It is something certainly that the department is aware of and is working with Conservation on. Questions were raised with regard to Mr. Thorke lsson by the critic fo r the Opposition. LMC, which is Land Management Services, has negotiated to settle directly with Mr. Thorke lsson on behalf of Manitoba and it was not by the R.M. of Gimli. The sale price was $7,000. So that is just a corre ction of the initial inf ormation that was relayed. I also have inf ormation on Teulon.

I do not know how much detail the Member would like, but we entered into a 10 -year lease, commencing April 1, 19 89, and ending March 31, 19 99, fo r 3402 square fe et at 75 Main Street in Teulon. This provides office accommodation for the Department of Agriculture, Interlake Region, and Work place Saf ety and Health. We subsequently leased an additional 10 56 square fe et of of fice space at 75 Main Street fo r a term of eight years and fo ur and one-half months, commencing November 15 , 19 90, expiring March 31, 19 99. This additional office space was leased for MACC, Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corpora tion.

Both lease agreements were pla ced on a month-to-month lease term ef f ective April 1, 19 99, pending the outcome of the proposal call fo r a combined office space in Stonewall. MGC has had ongoing problems during the lease term. These relate to maintenance and environmental hazards. I think that gives some more inf ormation as far as the questions ra ised by the critic a couple of days ago. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Chair person, I want to thank the Minister fo r his inf ormat ion. Did I hear ri ght?

At the present time in Teulon, at that present location, you are on a month-to-month lease and you have not entered into a long-term agr eement with the Duecks. Is that corr ect? Mr. Ashton: That is corr ect. Mr. Helwer: What is the plan there? Have you any plan there to enter into a long-term agreement at the present location? If you are, what would the terms of that lease be? Mr.

Ashton: The Department is currently assessing the best location for its programming in the area, and our role, of course, in Government Services, as the Member would know, would basically be to provide service to the Departm ent based on the direction fr om the Department itself . It will depend on the Department rather than Government Services. Mr. Helwer: I want to thank the Minister. I just want to emphasize again that it is important though that those of fices be maintained in Teulon, because that agri cultural of fice has been there fo r many, many years. We would certainly like to see that maintained there.

Plus the other of fices there, I believe, MACC and Family Services that operate out of there, we certainly would like to see that continue there, if at all possible.

18 94 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 I realize there have been some problems with the present owner of the property that you have the lease fr om. I would hope that maybe those problems could be resolved, and that would be a renewal there to keep the present government operations there in Teulon, because it is important. There are a number of employees who are employed there who are quite satisfied and happy there. The only problem is, as I said, there have been some problems with the building; I am aware of it.

I think Government Services are certainly aware of it, and I know they have had some problems there. I would hope, Mr. Minister, that you would reconsider and renew that lease there and continue that program there. Mr. Ashton: Probab ly the best advice I could give the Member is to raise the concerns with the relevant minister , in this case the Minister of Agricul ture (Ms. Wowchuk), because. once again, the Department really is a service agency fo r government. We do not decide locations in terms of where is the best location fo r delivery of service; departm ents do.

Our job is then to sort of find the appropriate accommodation based on their policy dir ection. So, if the Member does wish to raise the concern in terms of the actual location in terms of the community, I would proba bly recommend that he raise this with the Minister of Agricul ture directly. Mr. Helwer: The other thing on the Gimli situation with Dean Thorke lsson, I did not quite understand the Minister's comment there. What was that, on the Gimli situation? Mr. Ashton: The Member had asked the question as to whether the land was purchased fr om Land Management Services with the Government or through the R.M.?

It was just providing a corr ection. It was actually purchased from Land Management Services fo r $7,000. Mr. Helwer: Okay, so that was the Land Management Services that sold this property to, it looks like Agassiz Marine or whatever it is, whatever they call it. Mr. Ashton: That is correct. Mr. Helwer: Is it the will of the Minister to continue with Government Services this morning, or are your Highways people available here? Mr. Ashton: I have Highways available and Government Services. So it is whatever the Member wants to do. Mr.

Helwer: Perhaps since you have your Deputy Minister fo r Government Services here, we will continue that question for the time being and try to clean that up, and then we can go on to Highways, if that would be okay. Mr. Ashton : That is fine. Mr. Helwer: I guess one of the questions we are concerned with is with the present government's policy on untendered contracts. Have there been some changes made in the way untendered contracts have been done? * (1 0:40) Mr. Ashton: There has been no change. Mr.

Helwer: Well, if you say there is no change in the procurement of your goods and one thing and another fo r Government Services, what is the present policy? Anything under a $10,000- contract or something like that does not have to be tendered? Is that corr ect? Mr. Ashton: Basically the Departm ent does tender wherever possible. The normal threshold fo r fo rmal tendering is about $2,500 in terms of a fo rmal tender process. Below that amount, there may be a telephone process, a more inf ormal process.

But in some service areas, fo r example ar chitectural services, the Department goes to the industry, to the prof ession, has set up a rotational list that is based on skill sets and that results in contracts being sort of rotated through the industry, depending on the specific skills and abilities of each architect and arc hitectural firm. Mr. Helwer: Madam Chairperson, just to the Minister. I wonder, since there are some people here who have some questions on Highways, if you could get your Highways people here maybe about, say, eleven o'clock or something like that.

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 95 Would that be possible? Until then, we will work on Government Services. So just getting back to some of the untendered contracts and procurement of goods, have there been any changes or are there any changes contemplated at the present time to procure the goods that you need for Government Services or fo r any department of government? Mr. Ashton: We are curr ently reviewing our procurement policies. We have an initiative, and I indicated this bef ore. As a government, we have very little central co-ordination of procur ement.

The initiative will look at ways of improving co-ordination, using our own services within the Department in terms of procurement to basically co-ordinate better across government depart ments. We also believe this will allow us to achieve some other goals, as well, and this is part of the review. One is to improve the ability of Manitoba businesses to access procurement opportunities with the Government. I know that has been a concern expressed certainly to me as minister. It allows us to also look at other areas such as Aboriginal procurement, so that will be also an aspect of the review.

In general, we are looking at ways of improving the system. I mentioned this at the committee earlier and that is the fa ct that general ly we are, I think, in the need of doing what other businesses are doing, other entities are doing, where there has been a lot of work done on the procurement. We see this, by the way, as not only achieving better goals fo r the province in terms of the economic opportunities but also potentially saving us a significant amount each year. Mr.

Helwer: When you talk about the Manitoba businesses and you talk about Aboriginal bands, will they be in a position to tender for some of these government contracts? How do you propose to be able to distribute some of the procurement policies or procurement matters among the Aboriginal community and also the small businesses in Manitoba? Mr. Ashton: We are in the early stages of discussion. We have started discussion with Aboriginal businesses. We are seeking input, certa inly, from that end. We will be involved in fu rther discussions with the business community generally, as we progress on this initiative. Mr.

Helwer: What type of products or what type of merchandise are you pla nning on doing this kind of procurement with? Mr. Ashton: I think, perhaps, it is impor tant to put it into perspective. Right now, 80 percent of the total goods and services purchased by government-it is $400 milli on-is purchased individually by departments. So there is very little co-ordination. There is only 20 percent, which is the result of any central procurement. We are looking at pretty well anything that is in that 80 percent.

What we are trying to do is to work with departments, because obviously depart ments have very specialized needs. Health, Education, and Highways, they have very dif f erent procurement needs. But, by fo cussing on ways of co-ordinating that, we fe el there could be a significant benefit. If you look curren tly, by the way, at the Procurement Services Branch, I think there is fai rly clear evidence that it is already saving a significant amount of money, just based on the $10 0 milli on, which is the 20 percent that the PSB manages.

There is an estimated cost savings of between $2.7 and $8.3 million in recent years . What we are hoping to do is do that on the remaining 80 percent-certa inly on a significant portion of it. It also again allows us to par ticipate in vendor development, what I ref erenced earlier. I think it is a real opportunity fo r us to make it a lot easier fo r businesses,

part icularly Manitoba businesses, to access opportunities on the procurement side. If it is not co-ordinated, if you have that 80 percent scattered across the depart ments, it is very difficult for people to know what opportu nities are available. I think that this is an excellent initiative. I want to commend the Procurement Services Branch fo r the work that they have already done, and also for the leadership role they have taken. I think, probab ly by next year, once we have gone through this process, we will be in a much better position to advise the Member on some significant improvements and procurement across government.

18 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 Mr. Helwer: I do not know how many dollars of the provincial economy or provincial govern ment are spent in Manitoba. What percent of our purchases takes place in Manitoba, and in Canada? Do you have any figures on that at this time? * (1 0:50 ) Mr. Ashton: What I can do is provide some general information to the Member based on the existing 20 percent that is centrally co-ordinated.

Once again, one of the difficulties with the remaining 80 percent, since there is no central co-ordination of it, it is very difficult to track down the kind of information I can provide you on the 20 percent that is. Basically, approxi mately 65 percent of that 20 percent is from within Manitoba. Once again, one of the real advantages of this approach is working within the agreement on internal trade, which, the Member is probably aware of, does obviously govern us in terms of a lot of this.

There is a significant opportunity to extend Manitoba purchases-not really through anything other than providing a more co ordinated approach in having some ability to get information to Manitoba businesses, and to give a co-ordinated access to government procure ments. We see this as being quite significant. One other thing that I should advise the Member too is that we actually only have had less than 2% foreign-source procurement, which is quite remarkable.

I think it shows that, when you have a co-ordinated approach, and even working within the agreement on internal trade, you can end up with efficiencies to government, as well as procurement policies that are beneficial to Manitoba, and to Canada as a whole. We are very optimistic that we can save the province a significant amount of money through this co-ordination. We can extend this excellent record on Manitoba and Canadian procurement percentages to other parts of government procurement. Mr. Helwer: When you talk about the 2% foreign, does this mean outside of North America? Is that what you mean by foreign?

Mr. Ashton: Outside of Canada. These are basically products not available in Canada. Mr. Helwer: So that 2 percent would include the U.S. market. Mr. Ashton: That is correct. Mr. Helwer: I am glad to see that most of the goods that you can purchase locally are purchased locally. I think that is good for Manitoba. Perhaps just a couple of questions on the correctional institutions. I understand there was some construction going on at Headingley. Is that pretty well completed now, or is that still underway? Mr. Ashton: It is almost complete.

It should be complete by August I, and should be available for occupancy in September. Mr. Helwer: I guess that, in some areas of Canada and the U.S., there is private-sector capital used to build correctional institutions or correctional facilities. I guess some advantages would be private companies put up the capital up front. It would not require the government or the province to have to build these facilities, and could use their capital for other purposes.

At the present time, is there any indication of the Province looking at other ways to capitalize some of the facilities that we need for correctional institutions? Mr. Ashton: The answer is no. I cannot speak for the Minister of Justice, but I would say to the Member that I am not one who would want to see us privatize any part of the correction system. There are two areas that I think-well, probably three, if you include education whether it is health care or corrections, that is not where you want profit to be a significant element of the administration of the facilities.

The experience of private prisons, where they have been in place, has not been very positive, so we are not looking at that. I think it is extremely important to maintain the integrity of our corrections system. Just speaking from the perspective as Minister of Government Services, there are very

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 97 significant demands that are in place now, not just related to the number of inmates, but also security to protect the inmates and also prison guards and the public at large . One of the challenges fo r both Justice and from our side in terms of delivering the required degree of security is actually the increased need to be extremely caref ul about having prisons in a proper state that can deal with the type of inmates that are in and the potential risks that are in place. We are not looking at privatizing any part of our prison system. Mr.

Helwer: I guess there are a number of areas outside Manitoba in Canada and the U.S. that do utilize some private sector capital and even some management for corr ectional fac ilities. I realize that would be a Justice item. Getting back to the buildings, there would be some advantages because the Province would not have to put up the capital. It would come fr om outside of government and the Prov ince would just pay the lease cost of the structure .

There are certain things, I realize, that because of the use of the buildings that technology and security and these things would have to meet the Government standards, but you said that the Province itself was not looking at any private utilization at this time. What about any other buildings fo r any other government depar tments? You already have some that you lease from the private sector. What are your future plans in regard to that policy? Mr. Ashton : I can assure the Member I do not think he is going to see Prisoners R Us or any commercial entity coming out of Corrections in the Province.

One of the reasons, by the way, is there is a distinct dif f erence between what the Member is pointing to in other areas and the prison system. When you are dealing with standard commercial space, commercial space is commercial space. We do, as a government, have a mixture of government-owned space and leased space, but this is in a very dif fe rent category . One of the biggest dif f erences is, when you are dealing with corr ections, you have to deal with a significant amount of investment on very specialized security measures.

The bottom line is, that is why I think it would be totally inappropriate to have any private sector involvement with our prison system. That is quite diff erent fr om leasing commercial space. Mr. Helwer: The other day we talked about the planes, about two Citations that we have, one the ambulance. Has the Province purchased some new Otters? Is this a replacement, or is this in addition to our present medevac flights that take place fr om Northern Manitoba? Mr. Ashton: There have been some discussions, but we do not have the budget authority. We are not proceeding with that this year. Mr.

Helwer: So there will be no new planes purchased, am I correct, whether they are smaller planes or whatever. Mr. Ashton: We have not budgeted fo r any pur chase of person new aircraft . We obviously do review the aircraft on a regular basis. One of the reasons there was discussion in regard to the twin Otters because there was a situation that developed where they became available. We basically have not budgeted fo r any replacement, but it does not preclude us fr om looking at future changes.

As the Member is proba bly aware of, there is a fa irly fluid market, in terms of used aircraft, and I do not think it would be wise for me to rule out some fu ture changes in the fleet, even changes within the fiscal year, if it was advantageous to us in terms of service delivery and cost. It is very much dependent on that, sort of comparing our existing fleet, resale of our existing aircraft, if we do make any changes, and also the purchase price. We would certainly keep an open view in terms of fu ture changes in terms of the air fleet. * (1 1 :00) Mr.

Helwer: Are there any other planes used for lif e flig hts, or have there been any helicopters used for lif e flig hts from remote communities, or fr om rural or northern Manitoba? Mr. Ashton: Basically, the Citations or the air craft that are used, we are not aware of any other aircraft being used, and the Citations are equipped as air ambulances. In terms of urgent patient transport as compared to situations where people may be shipped fo r non-urgent medical needs, we do use the Citations.

1898 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 2000 Mr. Helwer: I understood the helicopters were used, possibly for this, or were being contemplated maybe. But, in some areas that are inaccessible by plane or no airport, have helicopters been used in the past for this purpose? Mr. Ashton: If they have been used, it is not through the Department of Government Services, not as far as we are aware. There may have been other circumstances, other departments, other situations, but we have not. Mr. Helwer: I appreciate that honesty, and that could be other government departments than the Government Services.

I have some highway questions. Do we want to switch to Highways at this time, or what is the Minister's wish? Mr. Ashton: Okay. Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Madam Chair, I would like to ask the Minister a few questions about the road structure in southeastern Manitoba, particularly because many circum stances are changing in southeastern Manitoba. One of the recent happenings, as you have all heard, is the building of many hog barns, and this has resulted in huge traffic of livestock hauling tractor and trailers.

Some of the road structures in the last few years have been deteriorating, and the drivers say it is very hard on their equipment and it is very hard on the animals to drive on some of the highways. I understand in the Budget that the amount of money allocated for repairs was greater this year than last year and the amount of money for new roads was less than last year. Do I understand that correctly? Mr. Ashton: The maintenance budget has been increased significantly. On the construction side it is the same base budget that has been in place for the last number of years.

What happened last year was the previous government put in a one time $1 0-million additional investment in terms of highways, but the base budget is basically the same as what it has been the last two years, $100.5 million. Mr. Jim Penner: In that regard, then, if funding has increased for repairs and maintenance, Highway 12 from Trans-Canada to Steinbach is breaking up just south of the Ste. Anne intersection, about 1.5 miles south of Trans Canada. Now warning signs have been placed along this stretch of the road, but it is becoming quite unstable and the vehicles are changing lanes to avoid potholes.

The traffic in here has increased dramatically in the last five years. Can you tell me if there is any plan to do the repairs on Highway 12 south ofthe Trans-Canada? Mr. Ashton : We will be doing the repairs. In fact, there are a number of reasons for the increased allocation on the maintenance side, one is to cover the additional costs, but increasingly there is more of a need with an older system.

The same with an older vehicle, you have to put more into the maintenance side, but we will be doing the repairs on that particular stretch of road, and I appreciate the Member making us aware of the particular condition of that particular stretch. Mr. Jim Penner: Madam Chair, does the Minister know when this might happen? Mr. Ashton: It is an ongoing process. What I will do is take the question as notice and make sure we make the region aware of the particular stretch that is in place, but the repairs do take place. They are done on an ongoing basis, and I will raise this directly with the region for the Member.

Mr. Jim Penner: Madam Chair, to the Minister, further down Highway 12 towards Steinbach, just about a mile or two out of Steinbach, Highway 12 is intersected by a road called Park Road. This is recently developed commercially. A new Safeway store has been built here, a new Canadian Tire store, the shopping centre on the west side is being expanded and the dealerships on the southwest comer are being expanded. There are a lot of commercial facilities being built around this intersection, but the intersection was designed 20 years ago for the traffic at that time. There are numerous accidents at Park and 12.

I think it is unsafe. The community feels it is

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1899 unsafe, and I am just wondering if this has been allocated for work in the near future. Mr. Ashton : There was a fair amount of work done when the Canadian Tire store went in. I am advised there have been discussions with the town in terms of possible cost sharing. What I can do on that is also get more detail and advise the Member of the exact status of discussions between the Department and the town. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr.

Minister, again, the meeting I had with the town of Steinbach earlier this week showed that the members had great concern for safety both in the outdated cross walks and so on on Main Street and in the newly developing commercial areas. Would the cost sharing proposal put forward by the City of Steinbach expedite the project so that it happens sooner than later? Mr. Ashton: We would certainly be open to discussions on that. There are other cases where the Department does at the request of a com munity work on that sort of an arrangement, whether it is cost sharing.

So we would certainly be open to any suggestions or proposals from the town. *( 11 :10 ) Mr. Jim Penner: Madam Chair, the Park Road and No. 12 Highway traffic situation has been addressed by the Highways Department as to a plan. The cost of implementing the plan evidently is $700,000. The City of Steinbach has said they would fund this entire amount and likely get the money back over a five-year period. Would that help expedite the project? Mr. Ashton : I doubt it. Financing is not the problem. It is the overall limitations in the Budget.

We are faced with numerous requests from communities and R.M.s related to highways improvements in the area. It is not a question of financing. It is a question of the Budget restrictions that any Minister of Highways is faced with. So cost sharing to my mind would involve actual sharing of the cost, not the financing. Financing is not the problem. It is having the dollars available in the Budget. Mr. Jim Penner: In your document on page 40, Highways and Transportation Programs, is bullet No. 2, provides for safe movement of vehicular traffic on Manitoba Highways by the enforcement of safety regulations.

Safe move ment would also have to address the traffic counts, the changes in population, the commercialization and industrialization of the area. Would it be possible to have an estimate or a reasonably close figure of what has happened to the traffic counts in the last five years on Highway No. 12? Mr. Ashton : I have the current figures available, but if the Member wants previous years, we can provide that. I have the current year available. If the Member wants previous years, we will have to go back and get those, but we can provide that information. Mr.

Jim Penner: The changes in traffic and growth in population, does that influence the allotment of funds to a highway like No. 12? Mr. Ashton : Wherever possible we try to estimate what the trends are. Obviously when you are looking at any highway improvements, you want to make sure they meet future needs not just current needs. So it is one of the many factors that goes into it. Mr. Jim Penner: I am a new Member, a new MLA, and my questions may be naive, Madam Chairwoman, but I have to tell you that I have an emotional involvement here. My wife's sister was killed on the street.

My pharmacist's sister was killed on a crosswalk. My store manager's niece was killed on the street. My pastor's daughter was killed last year on a crosswalk. I can go on and on. These are people that I knew well. I think that it is due for a review of the safety procedures, because Steinbach has grown from 5000 or 6000 people in 1980 to a very bustling community of probably close to 10 000 people. The surrounding areas have grown, and the nature of the traffic has changed. The infrastructure has not been updated. Basically the four-lane No. 12 was built in early 1980.

Since then there has been hardly any work done on this highway that I have noticed, and I drive

19 00 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 2000 there almost every day. So I have an emotional involvement. When I talk about safety, I would like to ask a question on the change in the traffic. The stock haulers, so-called stock haulers, livestock trucks carrying poultry and hogs and beef, there has been a tremendous increase in the number of stock-hauling vehicles. Are these vehicles under the same regulation as normal highway traffic transport equipment? Mr. Ashton: Yes, they are. Mr. Jim Penner: Sometimes we feel that there are more trucks on the road than drivers.

One more question on airports, Madam Chair. The Steinbach airport is also an example of change. We are running a fleet of crop sprayers. We have even run water bombers. We are running twin-engine planes now. The Steinbach airport is, in the words of some of our local pilots, over capacity. Is there anything in this budget to address the pressure of the commercialization and the traffic that has grown in the Steinbach airport? Mr. Ashton : The Steinbach airport has received some significant investments for the MACAP program, Manitoba Airports Capital Assistance Program; 19 98- 1 999 was $76,704.

In the current program there has been work on the terminal building; $40,000 is the total cost, $20,000 the provincial share. So the province, both in '98-99 and also this year, has been involved in upgrading the airport. Mr. Jim Penner: I am aware of those contributions. The problem really seems to be not just the upgrading or the repairs that were done and the needed replacements, but it is undersized for the traffic that we have there. Is there within your department a method of determining what the proper facility should be? Mr.

Ashton: I think, basically, it is the airport itself that has to identify the needs. These are not airports that we operate directly. This is something that has to be developed in terms of the needs. The program itself just provides some assistance which is fairly significant. One of the difficulties we have on the airport side is that there are many other airports in the province where it is the only access, and there really has not been very much of a capital investment in those airports for many years, not until the last couple of years there has been some. We are trying to work on those airports as well.

So there will continue to be assistance available under the MACAP program for Steinbach, but in terms of major upgrading we are dealing with a number of remote airports that are the prime source of contact for those communities that have not been upgraded since the early 19 70's and where there is some significant safety problems.

So that has to be the priority, but I would certainly encourage the Member to communicate to his airport. * (1 1 :20) Obviously, the MACAP program is in place this year and, in fact, Steinbach is one of a number of communities that has received assistance under the program for upgrading and has, over the last couple of years, received some significant assistance from the province. I am advised that they basically have received everything they have applied for, so it is not that we have--either this government or the previous government-been saying no to the applications that have come in from Steinbach. Mr.

Jim Penner: I have been listening to the concerns of pilots and people involved with servicing and the agricultural industry out of Steinbach, and that is where my concerns have arisen. They feel that the facility is too busy for what it was built for. I was just wondering if there was some measurement system. I realize that, from flying up north, it is very important for northern isolated communities to have proper facilities.

I have landed in airports where I felt very unsafe up north, and I do not deny them that but I was just wondering at what stage should we be appealing for an upgrade of the Steinbach airport? Mr. Ashton : The real expertise and I think the obligation in this area lies with Transport Canada. We have spent time in Estimates talking about the federal government's lack of commitment to the highway system, but there is

June 1, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 01 also a complete lack of commitment, we believe, on the air transport side, particularly with airports. The federal government takes a signifi cant amount of money out of the system, does not reinvest.

What it has been doing the last number of years is getting out of airports generally, and I have a very real concern that whether it be Steinbach or remote airports or with other airports generally that we have established situations where the local airport authorities or the province, in the case of remote airports, is already putting a fair amount in, in terms of trying to upgrade those runways.

The federal government is doing very little, and the federal government's ACAP program, for example, it does not put back anywhere near the amount that it takes out from the system, so not only is this expertise within Transport Canada. they have the money too. This is another area that I have raised publicly as Mini ster, and I have indicated to the federal government that we believe they should be reinvesting in our transportation system, not just highways but also our airports as well. Mr. Jim Penner: Madam Chair, can I ask a question about the spruce bud worm problem? Is that in the back of your Estimates?

No, you have got Highways here right now. I would like to ask one more question, if I may. on the safety issue. Naturally, having lived in Steinbach for most of my lif e, I am aware of problems and situati ons. I feel that the com munity is a thriving community. It contributes to the tax base. It is a fairly independent community.

But, at the same time, I think if statistics were studied on traffic collis ions-we do not want to call them accidents because usually they could be avoided so they are collis ions-if this were studied, the fatalities in and around the community and the collision rate in and around the community-! did get figures from a number of communities in Manitoba through the citizens' committee, what is it called? The Manitoba Highway Safety Council, something like that. The comparison figures that they had, which were very limited, showed that Steinbach had above-average problems per capita.

I am just wondering if the crosswalk systems on the highways like Hig hway 52 that runs through Steinbach east and west and Hig hway 12 that runs through Steinbach north and south, and children from schools are crossing these highways, if there would not be funds to review the safety aspects of a growing community? Again, I am suggesting to you that I think our facilities are grossly outdated. I think we are a good contributor of tax dollars, and I think we need some dollars spent on reviewing the safety and upgrading the safety of our community. Mr.

Ashton : Well, there has been a significant investment in Steinbach on highways, I am advised. There has been at least $7 million spent in the last number of years. I appreciate the Member's comments. My view is one obviously has to look at safety generally. I know of many cases in my own area. I know of a number of cases recently of people who were killed in accidents, and you always try and see if there is anything that can be learned from it. In the one case, it was an area of the highway which has virtually no shoulder.

This is something that certainly, as minister, I have had raised with me in other areas of the province. It is one of those things you try and build in. But there has been a fairly significant investment in the Steinbach area but that does not mean that we are not open to looking into other specific problems as well. I would encourage the Member and, in fact, the community itself to continue to raise these types of concerns. Part of it really is getting them to the level where we can assess what can be done, if anything, to media te any particular problems.

I mentioned to the Department, and I certainly will follow up on the Member's comments in terms of accident rates, et cetera. because one of my goals as minister is to try and get a fairly strong correlation between safety and what we do as a department. I realize on the other hand there are the economic development issues. We discussed thi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-38a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 38a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d263cb3876465e7226366f7d8823d61ecc32a3ae

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