Manitoba Hansard — 22 February 1960 (Sitting 25A, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-25a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume'IV"No. 25A February 22, 1960 2nd Session, 26th ·Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen�s Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

DAILY INDEX Monday, February 22, 1960, 8 P.M. Committee of Supply: Agriculture, Water Control and Conservation • • . • • • • . • . . • • • • . 783 Attorney-General . . . . • . . • • • . . • • . • • . • . • . • • • • . . • • . . • • • • • . . • . • • . • • . • • . • . 789 The Progressive Index of Votes and Proceedings will be published on Tuesdays ot1 the last page.

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, February 22nd, 1960 MR. CHAIRMAN: Department VI, 15 (c)

(4) MR. HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, I gave some information that was a little inaccurate this afternoon in a question posed by the Honourable Member for Carillon. I was asked to whom the contract was awarded and the size of the contract with regard to an additional con struction on the Seine River project, and I believe I said the Prairie Construction Company. It was the Power Construction Company Limited, and I gave the amount at $125,000. It was $154,898. The mileage was 5.66 and about 10% of it was completed before freeze-up.

In reply to the question of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, I have the figures, not of the amounts spent but of the monies authorized for the year 1959. And to the 18 rural municipalities, 3 towns and villages, the amount was $95, 000. In comparison to this, the amount for 1960-61 is $212, 000; and. to unorganized and disorganized areas the amount author ized for 1959-60 was $168, 420; and the appropriation for 1960-61 is $168,000.

I'd also like to say that all the requests of the municipalities were considered and received assistance, ana if it looks as if the municipalities didn't get as much out of it as the unorganized and disorgan ized areas, it should be kept in mind that the municipalities participate entirely in the grants to the drainage maintenance districts where the amount authorized by the Legislature was $300,000. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I understood the Minister to say that although he has the figures of the authorizations h·; can't give us yet the amount spent. MR.

HUTTON: Well the year isn't ended until the 31st of March. MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, but I think the work would be pretty well ended though at this time of the year. MR. HUTTON: Well they're still coming in. MR. G. MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, I understood from the remarks of the Minister this afternoon that we would be discussing the larger part of these projects under capital. Is that the -- u11der capital? MR. HUTTON: Yes. MR. MOLGAT: To which I have no objection whatever, like the Riding Mountain, the Lake Manitoba and so on. So I'll reserve my comments on those till then.

Now what about the various other PFRA projects such as the Pasquia, for example? Does he wish to discuss them now or does that come under capital as well? It makes no difference to me. MR. HUTTON: Well, discuss them then. MR. MOLGAT: Well, my question then would be what is the situation right now on the Pasquia project? Where -- MR. HUTTON: It's almost complete. MR. MOLGAT: And how much land has been taken up? And how many settlers have gone in there? What -- is there more land available?

And then the same thing will apply to the other projects which I think are strictly provincial then; the Birch River; the Catfish Creek; and The Washow Bay. Where do those stand? MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 35. Water Control and Conservation. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I understood the Minister wanted those discussed now so I presume he is going to give me an answer to my questions. MR. HUTTON: Well very little has been done in the way of settling people in the Pasquia area tip to now. There is a real important consideration in carrying out the settlement of this area.

That is that the type of farming to be carried out is going to constitute the satisfaction or the success of the development, because the information that I've been given indicates that unless a lot of the farming that is carried out is grassland, a large percentage of the farming that is carried out is grassland farming, Pasquia coUld develop into the biggest white elephant that you coUld imagine, because you know --probably are more acquainted with this particular project than I am because of the fact that you -- some of you have sat in this Legislature for a good many years when it was under consideration, and realize that the success of the develop ment depends upon the efficiency of the drainage.

And therefore it is important that the type of farming that is carried out is going to be the type of farming that will protect as is so far February 22nd, 1960 Page 783

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) ...... possible by cultural methods this very extensive and intricate system of drainage that they have up there. And so although! haven't had the opportunity to sit in on too many of the considerations or meetings on this problem, it is my understanding that the method and so forth of settling the area is one that is receiving very serious consider ation in an endeavour to make sure that the type of farming that should be carried on in that area is carried out.

Now, I think that the cost to the province at this stage of maintenance is very small; in fact it's, I think for '60-'61 there's an item of $5,000. But this doesn't mean to say that maintenance of a project of this kind couln't become a major item in the estimates if we don't see to it that the work that has been done is safeguarded by sound farming methods. Not necessarily that these methods wouldn't be sound in other areas but the methods must be adapted to the area that is to be cultivated.

Washow Bay, Birch River and Catfish Creek - well there's certain problems connected with these areas I imagine, and from the information that I have the major problems are those of drainage and I think that it's fair to say that when these projects were undertaken no one envisaged the cycle of wet weather that we have exper ienced of late, and that due to this weather and the fact that adequate drainage hasn't been carried out to look after it, many of the farmers find themselves in difficulty.

But I would say this, that we must take a very close look at these projects and make sure that value is going to be received for the money that must be spent in development if we are to continue to let people go into these areas. And this is part of the load that is being put upon our Soils and Crops Branch and our own Water Control and Conservation Branch to determine the economic_ feasibility.

And I think also it is accurate to say that PFRA are going to demand in the future a fairly accurate assessment of the economic advantages and the cost benefits of the various undertakings that we asked them to consider in the province. And I think also it's reasonably fair to say that since some of these projects were undertaken, the whole economic environment for farming has changed and that possibly the need for farm products that was looked forward to a number of years ago has disappeared.

And I 'm not saying it isn't going to return, but in the light of the conditions today it may well be that the cost of developing these areas to the place where the farmer is reasonably sure of a fair return for his endeavours, may be very high at this time -- too high to justify a continued expansion.

And I think it's something we all have to take a look at and make up our minds whether in the light of present day conditions and in the light of the opportunity to make a decent living, whether people should be encouraged or even allowed -- even' allowed, to go into some of these areas, no matter how rich the potential might be if these areas were developed. Now this isn't saying that some of these areas in years to come can't be developed into some of the most productive in Manitoba -- I'm not going to take issue on this point.

But at the present time there are a great many people who find them selves in difficulties in some of these areas and I think it is unfair to encourage them to go in because it can only mean heartbreak and disappointment for them. And I believe that ip some cases the cost of making this land productive at the present time is prohibitive in terms of cost benefits. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I was very interested to hear the remarks of the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture particularly in respect of, as I understood it, the Pasquia Development.

Now can I gather from his remarks, or am I correct in gathering from his remarks, that in the light as he said of present day conditions, that there will be no further development in the particular area of Pasquia? MR. HUTTON: Pasquia's finished. MR. PAULLEY: It's finished but do I understand from you that there will be no encour- agement for settlement in the Pas quia ... MR. HUTTON: Oh, no. MR. PAULLEY: Oh you're speaking of the others in that ... MR. HUTTON: It-- there will be. It will be settled. MR.

PAULLEY: It will be settled and when you were saying in the light of conditions today you were talking of the other areas. MR. HUTTON: I was talking of the other areas. MR. PAULLEY: I see. Fine. MR. MOLGAT: .......... .•.... there will be no further developments in the other Page 784 February 22nd, 1960

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) ..... areas. In particular Catfish Creek and Washow Bay. Birch River was almost completed as I recall but the other two were in process. There is no further development going on in that case in those two? MR. HUTTON: That isn't exactly correct but what we are endeavouring to do is to make sure that people who go in there, go in there under circumstances that will permit, to have a reasonable chance to make a living.

There is further development in that some of the people in there buy additional lands but I think we want to be very careful that we can offer the kind of development to drainage and so forth that is needed if these people are going to have a chance, and I'm just saying that we're giving a great deal of consideration to this and it's getting a lot of attention right now because of the fact that farming generally is in difficulties that it hasn't experience for twenty years and that these difficulties bear harder on people who find that they've lost their crop or something else.

When you combine these difficulties to the cost price squeeze, with the loss of their production,then their experience is really heart breaking and I think that until we're in a position to develop this land on a cost basis that is going to prove of economic benefit, that is economically feasible, then we want to take it easy in our policy of letting people go into these areas. That• s all I' m saying. MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, haven't more people who have gone into those -- in particular the Catfish Creek and Washow Bay in the past two years ---has there been further settlement.? MR.

HUTTON: There has been the odd case but people are going in there only under - after careful scrutiny of the circumstances. They may have relatives in there or something of this nature, but as a general rule they're keeping a pretty tight rein on the settlement, further settlement in these areas. MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to unduly hold up the work of the comm ittee, but before we leave this final item I would like to say a few words in connection with river bank erosion which was .raised by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead.

I take it that the Federal Government will not admit any responsibility for river bank erosion unless that river bank erosion is either due to the presence of a Federal Public Works or is due to navigation. Now in the Parish of St. Andrews, from that portion lying south of St. Andrews Locks, the Federal Government did admit its responsibility for river bank erosion there because it has spent upwards of $300,000 on protective work along the river bank.

Now sub sequently the Federal Government reversed its stand on that particular liability and we had numerous meetings between the Federal Government engineers and Provincial engineers trying to get them to again admit their responsibility but they claimed then that the presence of the St. Andrews Locks was no factor in the river bank erosion.

The Provincial Government engineers disputed that claim on their part but I would suggest to the Minister that further representations be made to him to the Federal Government with a view to seeing if they will not again admit responsibility for erosion of that part of the Red River banks lying south of St. Andrews Locks. Now the· whole question of river bank erosion is one that has got to be settled sooner or later because you can start in East Kildonan or West Kildonan and go straight north and the amount of erosion that has taken place during the past 25 years is really tremen dous.

All you have to do is go into Kildonan Park and find the amount of river bank that has slid in during the past 20 years. It's been sliding in at the rate of about a foot a year and there's still more going in and that problem's got to be faced sooner or later and I would suggest that at the very earliest moment some committee be set up for the purpose of consider ing this whole matter and for the further purpose of deciding what's going to be done and who it's going to be done by. MR. CHAIRMAN: ........... Member for Swan River. MR. CORBETT: Mr.

Chairman, I must get up and make a comment or two that I think the Minister of Agriculture should make sure for the purposes of Press representation that he wasn't damning the Pasquia project or the Birch River project.

He damns with faint praise it seems to me, and I must assure you that I know those two projects and I'm quite sure they're going to be just as good and successful projects as any in the country, and as far as the Pasquia is concerned, the Pasquia project will fill a long-felt want and I'm sure that it -- I wish he would make sure that the Press don't get up and say that you're condemning all these projects because I would certainly feel a great difference of opinion with,in that he was damning them February 22nd, 1960 Page 785

(Mr. Corbett, cont'd) ...•.. but because those two projects I happen to know them very well and worked in them both, and they're no Garden of Eden, but they're going to be wonderfully successful projects for the welfare of our province. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could deviate between the two honourable gentlemen on the subject here and say that I think there really is no difference of opinion on this point.

We are, as everybody knows, well engaged, well launched, well engaged in developing the various projects that have been mentioned here tonight and we certainly intend to carry them through to a successful conclusion.

I think the point the Minister was trying to make, and I think probably there won't be too much disagreement on this, is that we should exercise the very greatest of care in expanding those projects beyond their present plans or going into new ones without being perfectly sure that in doing so we're being absolutely fair to the men and women that we expect to go in there and develop them, but I' m sure that all those projects will be brought to a successul conclusion but we feel our responsibility is to make sure that when opening up virgin territories that all the factors are taken into consider ation and that we don't ask people to go into territories where the chances of success are small.

I've visited almost all these projects myself and I do feel particularly with the two you mention ed that they're going to be successful ones, and we look forward to the completing of them in a satisfactory way. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, I was particularly interested and happy to hear the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture suggest about a week ago that he was presently devis ing a grant formula for the sharing of costs of a program within the Whitemud River Water shed, and then again today I think he suggested that I would be happy to know that there was something in the estimates for our area.

Now there's just one point that I would like cleared up. I expect that the Honourable the Minister will want to have a look at the program that is set up by the committee before he decides on any cost sharing formula, or is it the intention to let the Watershed people know before they get into a program what the cost sharing formula might be? MR. HUTTON: Mr . Chairman, I would like to point out that the committee can't get into. a program before they find out what the

schedule of grants will be because they will, before the establishment of the districts, they will have to pass a by-law considering the, first of all the bo'undaries as set out by the Commission, considering the work, the existing works in the district which they will take over. Considering the

schedule of grants that will apply to the various works within the district and these they will have to consider before they indicate to me whether or not they want the districts set up by order-in-council so that there's no danger ·that they will go into this blindly. The Honourable Member also raised the point this afternoon that because the Act stated that the program for the fiscal year had to be sub mitted by the 1st of February, that he anticipated some difficulty for the district to operate in 1960, but in the Act, and I believe I forgot to bring it with me, there is a

section dealing with the establishment of the district specifically and which makes allowance for this contingency. And under this

section of the Act, the municipalities are empowered to make grants to the district in the year that the district is established. And as I stated before, there are amounts in both current and capital which would be used in any case by the municipalities involved and this money dr these monies can be utilized by the district and are there for the district to use, if as I expect they will decide to establish. MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, one last question.

Of this $410,000, it's a different item in here, but is there money appropriated for culverts as such drainage which is coming through the municipality, and into the local government districts? One, just for information for the Minister, . so he will be able to follow what I' m trying to say, there is a drainage being dug from Gimli constituency into Fisher which everybody welcomes, but that drainage is following for certain distance down the road allowance and I am told by the municipal people, by the local government district people, that it is 35 feet wide.

Now when this drainage comes through anybody's driveway the farmer has to build his own bridge and I had complaints from both groups, and the price was such a culvert I found out for the bridge is from $800 to $1,000, and I understand -- I have the information that the municipality does not provide for the individ ual for such a culvert, neither does the local government district provide. Now it creates a hardship on both sides because the farmer alone cannot buy a culvert or build a bridge for Page 786 February 22nd, 1960

(Mr. Wagner, cont'd) ...... $1, 000. That is understandable, At the same time·when this ditch is coming alongside of one side of the fence, the other side the people have the facility of the drainage. They are very happy and they don't have to buy their own culvert or a bridge. There fore I would suggest to the Minister to take it under consideration. If we are building such drainage which everybody welcomes, maybe we should provide these culverts too, because it is a costly project for the individual, regardless of whether they are in the disorganized or organized. MR.

HUTTON: We'll take that into consideration. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I too have one last question here and I wish to revert back to the problem of river bank sli;:>page. I asked a question before 5:30 and I didn't really get any answer. And in view of the statement made in this House last session by the former Minister of Agriculture I would once again ask the Minister or the Premier to explain to us the Government stand on this problem . I would just like to read three sentences from Hansard of July 7th last. The former Minister is speaking.

He is referring to river bank slippage, and I quote: ''In the meantime we will have a good dig at the Federal Government to see if they will take up what we consider to be their legal responsibility in regard to it, but if that fails, we will probably have to go alone in regard to it. We realize that we have more money than the municipality for that pur pose, so at times we have done such work. On all of those occasions we would do our best to get something done by the Federal.

Failing them, we take it that the second responsibility is ours because financially, it is likely the municipality would be unable to operate." Now my last question is this; in view of the fact that some people in some mlinicipalities along the Red, north of the city, have had certain work done, shoreing up the banks; and in view of the fact that some people have had erosion to an even greater degree on their property, and have had no governmental assistance, I would ask the Minister, and/or the Premier, if they do not think that there is a need here for some consistency of approach.

And in view of the fact that the Minister has made this statement -- '.:he former Minister -- are they prepared to back it up? MR.

HUTTON: Well, to be very frank with the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, this particular problem hasn't been brought to my attention in my term of office by the municipal ities involved, and I would expect that if it is as serious a problem as the honourable member said it is - and I have no reason to doubt his word -- that representation will be made to me by the municipalities concerned, and I would expect the property-owners in the area will certainly make representation to their municipal councils, and that their wishes --their requests will be forwarded to me, and I'll be most happy to assist in any way I can.

But as I have said earlier, that this problem was not brought to my attention since I came to office, and I have not given the problem any consideration, merely because it hasn't been brought to my attention and there have been many other problems that have. MR. CAMP BELL: Mr.

Chairman, if the Honourable the Minister wants to look up some further authorities on that matter, he will find it in that same discussion last year that the Honourable Member for Swan River, the Honourable the Attorney-General, and the Honourable Member for Lakeside all took part, and I would commend their combined good judgment to him because this is a difficult problem. It really is pretty difficult for the local people and certain ly difficult for the municipality, and it be even difficult for the province itself. And in the meantime, both municipalities and individuals are being severely damaged. Now Mr.

Chairman, maybe I could say my last question, because on this particular matter, because I seem to have some other people take the ball away from me here. And I was trying to follow up the figures that the Honourable the Minister gave us.

He said that because the year hadn't ended that he wasn't able to give what their estimate was of expenditure under this item that we have been discussing,which I think was exactly the same last year as it is this year, namely $410, 000, I calculated -- totalled up the figures that he gave, and I find those are only 263, 000-odd and I was thinking that there wouldn't be a great deal more done during the remaining couple of months.

So I was just going to suggest to him that if that was all that had been allocated under that item last year, that perhaps our estimate of a year earl ier had been closer to the fact than the one that we passed last July; We had estimated for the year ending 1959, $340,000. I remember checking up with the Minister at the time it was up February 22nd, 1960 Page 787

(Mr. Camp bell, cont'd) .•.•.. here before, just what extra work they were going to do. He was quite sure that this amount of money was needed. I gather that actually it's going to be far from used up. MR. CHAIRMAN: Passed? MR. PA ULLEY: Mr. Chairman, on the passing of the item and not a question -- in the relatively short period of time that I have been in this House, I believe this is the longest ordeal that any Minister of Agriculture -- if it is an ordeal and I am sure my Honourable Friend enjoyed it -- but this is the longest that I recall, insofar as the department is concerned.

Now sometimes I like to be fair. And I would suggest that for a rooky Minister, and indeed a rooky member of this House -- but outside of a few occasions, and I must put that in just to be fair to myself -- that the Minister has acquitted himself very good.

And I would suggest to. him one thing however, now that the items are all passed; that he give consideration to a report of his department, brought down such as the Department of Health and Welfare; Industry and Commerce; and Mines and Natural Resources; and other departments, Now I appreciate the fact that the leaders of the parties this year got a typewritten copy of a report. In our group of ten that report had to be circulated throughout the members.

I think it would facilitate the passing of the estimates, because I' m sure that many of the questions that were asked during this week -long ordeal could have been found in the report itself, and it might have assisted the Minister if he could. have said, refer to page so and so of my report, and then it would be fair. So I am not raising or asking the Minister a question. Now that the items are all passed, Mr.

Chairman, I thought though, in fairness, that at least one from this side of·the House should say something nice about the Minister after all the things we thc:JUght about him during this past week, and make that, what I think is a constructive criticism, of having a report for us for subsequent years. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, there certainly wouldn't be only one from this side of the House that would be willing to give the Honourable Minister credit for knowing his department remarkably well for the time that he's been in it.

He has justified my faith in him that I always believe that a practical farmer is the man to be in the job in agriculture. And certainly the Minister I think has shown a very commendable grasp of the department for the short time that he has been there, and I am sure -- (interjection) -- well, if he would mend his ways and get into better company, why we'd be agreeable to see that he stayed there a long time. I would like to comment though -- and whether the Minister agrees with me or not -- on this matter.

I think that the other suggestion that the Honourable the Leader of the CCF Party makes is one that at first glance is v;ery logical, but as all the practical farmers in this House know, the difficulty with the Department of Agriculture report that comes down - and I am sure this is why the most of the Ministers of Agriculture in the years have not wished to go to either the trouble or the expense of getting a lot of copies made -- is that by the time it comes down here it is actually a year old. Now that is true as far as other departments are concerned too, if they are brought down just to the end of March.

But with agriculture, by the time that that report appears here another crop has come and to some extent at least, gone. And generally speaking it's the year that has just ended that the farmers in the House are most concerned about and are talking about.

So that quite frankly, for agriculture - maybe the same for the other departments but I don't know them as well -- for agriculture the thing that the most of the members are interested L'l is the year that has just closed, and I think that perhaps the Minister would be able to work out something that he would bring down, some thing that brought us a little more up to date in the way of the current year that we're in.

I know that some of the other ministers have tried to do that and certainly I would not be inter ested in seeing a lot of copies of the old report printed because it's old news by the time it comes in. However, I do say this, that I too commend the Minister very highly for both the practical grasp that he has of the department and the courteous way in which he gives the information. MR. PAULLEY: As a farmer from Transcona rather than from Tuxedo I somewhat agree with the remarks of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition insofar as the report is concerned. I can see his point quite well.

It may be that the Minister might be able to bring down a report similar to the report brought down by the Ministry of Health and Welfare. A Page 788 February 22nd, 1960

(Mr. Paulley, cont' d) .....• review of activities of the current year rather than, as the Leader of the Opposition has pointed out, a report which when it does reach our desks is a year old. MR. CHAIRMAN: Department of the Attorney-General. Department 7. 1. Administra tion (

a) Salaries. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I welcome the opportunity on this first item in my estimates, the estimates of the Attorney-General's Department to make those customary few remarks that the House has become entitled to and certainly I think which will be of soine assistance, at least I hope they will be of some assistance in the discussion of the estimates that follow.

I am going to crave the same indulgence of the House this year as I did some seven months ago in introducing my estimates and ask if they will permit me on occasion to refer· perhaps more closely to my notes than I otherwise might when participating in a debate be cause there is of course information of a statistical nature which sometimes have to be given and upon which I would like to be accurate. It is significant of course that only some seven months have passed since I last brought the estimates of my department before this committee.

In that time I think there have been some significant happenings within the department but I am not going to say that they have been of a revolutionary nature or anything like that at all. But I think that as we discuss the estimates it will be seen that there have been some steps taken in pursuance of the program which was outlined at that time, and I hope tonight to be able to give you some other ideas as to what plans we have for the future year which lies ahead of us. If I may, I should like to start on my review with a short discourse on the subject of our adult gaols in Manitoba.

Since I last reported to the House, Mr. Chairman, there has been no further detailed advice from the Federal Government respecting the transfer of jurisdiction to that government of all prisoners serving terms in excess of 12 months. The Planning Committee of the Federal Government visited this province last year in the course of its systematic review of institutional requirements right across the Dominion and undoubtedly it will be making its report to the Federal Minister of Justice before too long.

The recommend ations made by that Planning Committee will, of course, be extremely important and the degree to which they are accepted by the Federal Government will, as I am sure honourable members of the committee will appreciate, be of considerable importance i1). the future development of ourgaol planning in this province. As I stated last July, Mr. Chairman, it was not our intent ion, notwithstanding inevitable delays in the implementation of this new and, I think, excellent federal program, to be satisfied with the status quo as we found it and to make no changes until the new plan came in.

That's why it would now be foolhardy of this or any other government to embark upon any large scale capital expansion or renovation with respect to gaol plans. There still are many areas in which we are taking, I hope, effective action to improve the condition of existing institutions and to expand and improve our rehabilitation program.

In this regard I will be reporting to you in more detail during the course of the estimates and perhaps a little later in these remarks on the work of our newly established rehabilitation camp, on: the extension of probation, on the course on correction, and on some comparatively minor but nonetheless important extension of training facilities at the camp and at Headingly gaol and on other items where attention was needed and is now being given. There will be some minor changes of the capital nature involved at the Dauphin gaol and at the gaol at The Pas.

These can perhaps be dealt with when the capital items arrive but they will be of a comparatively minor nature, not of a major nature involving any great addition to the plants at eit"!ler place . There has been, Mr. Chairman, one very interesting and I think encouraging fact emerging during the latter months of 1959 and the early part of this year to date. That is that the gaol population --that is the adult gaol population, generiuly speaking -- at Heading lay and at the women's gaol at Portage la Prairie is lower now than it was in the previous year.

Weekly figures from Headingley indicate that the average population to date during 1959-1960 is about 416, a reduction of 60 odd from the average population of a year ago. The average population in the women's gaol has decreased from 70 down to approximately 66- a reduction of only four but still much better I think than an increase in our average population. I think the honourable members will appreciate, Mr. Chairman, that these are only weekly averages February 22nd, 1960 Page 789

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) •..... that I'm giving and, of course, the population fluctuates from one week to another but the figures I have given are the averages that we have worked out for the last few months in '59 and for the weeks to date in 1960. Now I think, Mr. Chairman, it would be foolhardy of me to try to claim any special credit for this happy circumstance.

I do believe that one could safely expect it that the new probation plan -- I mean not only the plan as taken over and expanded by us but the plan as started by the previous administration--is now beginning to manifest its impact on our gaol population in Manitoba. I say this as not a fact but I say it's safe speculation that this is the case.

And, of course, as the year progresses and we are able to look at the figures of acceptances into Headingley and into the women's gaol and other institutions we may perhaps be able to come back with an even rosier picture next year; at least I hope that will be the case, and that perhaps we will be more definitive in our reasons for this decrease in popula tion. Insofar as gaol improvement is concerned I feel something like the Minister of Education when he was speaking to the committee with respect to his ideas and his hopes in the field of education.

He stated that in that field there are always further advances which can be made. Now, Mr. Chairman, I can do no better than to re-echo his words because I think that is the case with respect to gaol improvement. Fortunately, I think we are living in an enlightened age when public understanding and concern in this field is quite high. I can only state with respect to this particular branch of my department that we propose to continue to make those improvements in the techniques of training and rehabilitation which are within our means and which our best technical advice indicate should be done.

Now as I mentioned a few moments ago, I would like to say a word or two about the first rehabilitation camp that was established in the fall of 1959 and which is now carrying on its work at Oxbow Beach some eight miles to the east of Portage la Prairie. This plan was devel oped in co-operation with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources which is developing at this site a tourist recreation park where already considerable work has proceeded since November under the overall guidance of members of the Department of Mines.

The camp program itself is the responsibility of the Director of Corrections, while the day to day operation and administration is under the direction of the Superintendent of Headingley gaol. A staff of five men have been selected from the guard officers at Headingley gaol to staff the rehabilitation camp at Oxbow Beach. Up to the 31st of December 1959 some 20 inmates from Headingley have been to the camp, that is, not the same ones continuously but on a rotating basis -- 20 men maximum have been to the camp. The men, as I said to the committee when we last met, Mr .

Chairman, considering last year's estimates, the men are being paid at the rate of 759 per day of which 509 is held and paid to them upon their discharge. They work an eight hour day six days a week. Now I know that there may be some members of the CCF party which will think that this is a pretty long work day, but in conversation with some of the prisoners at the camp I have found that the more in effect that you can give them to do, the happier they are. They are enjoying the work.

Their behaviour with one or two very mild exceptions has been exemplary and really it's something for the average person to see to go out to that camp to see the change in attitude, the change in expression, and the change in feeling of these men who are outside of the prison wills, so to speak, who are under extreme conditions of minimum security, and who are doing a day's work with their hands, are able to see the benefit of the work they are doing to the community, are getting paid a little some thing for the work that they are doing, and are able to hold their heads a wee bit higher I think, Mr.

Chairman, than they otherwise might if they were still incarcerated within the walls of the prison. An existing farmhouse on the property itself has been utilized for messing facilities and for staff quarters. An addition of butler type panel steel frame workshop has been acqujred for the campsite and will be used on those days when inclement weather prohibits outdoor work. Material has been ordered to build prefabricated bunlmouses which will be built in that workshop right on the campsite, and I understand that the material is there now and that work will be starting any day now, if it has not already begun.

These portable bunkhouses which the men will build out there will then be able to be moved from that site to any future site where this camp is re-established once the work at Oxbow is complete. Also I think you can see that February 22nd, 1960

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd). th�· director of corrections, the staff out there, with the co-operation of the Department of Mines, have put a fair amount of effort and thought into the planning of this camp so that the men will be occupied during the daylight hours and will be doing construct ive work which will be of benefit not only to them but to future prisoners who may have the opportunity to carry on this type of camp work lli another place.

The trainees at the camp - and I make the mistake myself, and I'm sure other honourable members will, I call them prisoners but the terminology that the directorate applies to them out there is ''trainees", and that is in effect what they are, trainees at the camp engage m their off hours and their relaxation hours in ice skating and hockey because the river is right within a hundred yards of the campsite. And inside, of course, they have card playing,_ reading, radio and television, play checkers, and so on for indoor recreation when they can't get out. The progral!l to date, Mr.

Chairman, and I am extremely happy to report this to the House, the program to date has proved so successf ul that a work project that will provide work for longer periods of time is at present under discussion with Department of Mines. This camp as you will appreciate, is an excellent opportunity for us to iron out some of the inevit able kinks which will develop in starting a new program of this kind and the experience that we have gained at the Oxbow beach site has been of estimable value to us in deciding and deter mining the extent and size of new camps which we hope to open once this work is completed .

I might mention in addition, Mr . Chairman, that the committee might be interested as well to know that in co-operation of the Parks Board of the Town of Dauphin, a small works project, not a long one but a small one, was selected at Dauphin suitable for inmates from the Dauphin gaol. There was a parksite located in the town of Dauphin where the trainees were sent from Dauphin gaol. They were able to walk to and from the gaol over to this park site and no extra living or messing accommodations were required, so when the request came from the town of Dauphin we were only too happy to acquiesce .

In fact, we asked them to make these men availabie for some scrubbing and sanitation work in that area. A crew of twelve men was involved in this work for approximately two months. They were paid at a slightly lower rate -50� a day for their work and they only worked five days a week. (Interjection) .. No, I think that they were quite happy to be getting any salary at all in Dauphin. I understand that conditions are not too good up in that part of the country.

The main work as I mentioned was sanitation work and removing brush and so on, and this type of proje ct, as it fitted in very closely to the type of project that we envision under this camp scheme mainly the type of work which ordinarily might not be done, and in this case, I am informed by the officials of the department that that was the feeling of the people in Dauphin, that this work otherwise would not have been done had these trainees not been available for it.

Since this fitted in so well to our idea and our concept of getting these men out as often as we can into productive work, we were quite happy to accept the invitation of the parks board of that to wn and to carry on with this work even for a short two months' period. There may well be other items upon which honourable members will wish to ask questions during the course of estimates concerning the rehabilitation camps, and I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, that I will be only too happy to attempt to answer and give any further information with respect to the camps when that time arrives .

In the field of probation upon which you will recall considerable emphasis was placed in my last words before the committee, I have some news of significance to report to the committ ee tonight. In accordance with the established policy of the government to extend probation services to the main federal regions of the province, in the seven months since I have last reported to the committee we have secured an additional three staff members; the fourth will be taken on in the spring on or about the 1st of March.

These additions will bring the total strength of juvenile and adult probation officers in Manitoba to 19. Recruiting in this field, as all the honourable members will appreciate, Mr. Chairman, must be done with extreme care . The relationship between the probation and an accused person is highly personal. The proper attitudes, educational background, and a liberal quantity of common sense, and I would persona lly underline that last qualification, are all most important attributes of those · who can successfully qualify for these positions .

With these thoughts in mind, the directorate of corrections has proceeded with its recruitment program and I am satisfied that to date they have done a good joh in securing that rare type of bird, that rare type of individual who February 22nd, 1960 Page 791

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) .•. ..• is willing to go into this field which demands a lot of selfless work, a lot of attention, a lot of night work and a lot of care, and a great deal of heart I would add, Mr. Chairman. I think they have sncceeded very well so far 1n recruiting that type of individual to the ranks of the government service in this field. The first juvenile and adult probation officer established outside of the Greater Winnipeg area went to Flin Flon in September of 1959. He serves Flin Flon, The Pas, and in special cases all the magistrates and judges north of the 53rd parallel.

The first woman adult probation officer was taken on staff during the same month, that is, September of 1959. Probation services in the Brandon district were extended in the first of the year, January 1st, to include adult as well as juvenile cases. I think honourable members will recall, Mr. Chairman, that for many years we had the splendid service in Brandon of Mr. Roy Hunter who serviced the juvenile court in that area as the juvenile probation officer. Some of you may have seen in recent papers that Mr.

Hunter retired and certain accolades were paid to him by members of the department at a little gathering not too long ago. I would like at this time, if I may, to digress just for a moment to pay a personal word of tribute to him on his retirement, for the many long years of service that he has given to the province in the very important field of juvenile probation in the Brandon area. He has been replaced, as I have mentioned, on his retirement, with a new probation officer who will take over adult as well as juvenile cases.

This new officer will ser vice Minnedosa, Shoal Lake, Virden, Souris and Boissevain districts as well as Brandon. Both juvenile and adult services are being made available if they have not already done so, or will be made almost immediately to the Selkirk district, including Stonewall, Beausejour and Eriksdale by the advent to the staff of a new member who is presently being in-trained to service those areas.

He will unfortunately not have the benefit of living in that fair town of Selkirk which the Honourable Member for Selkirk knows so well, but we do intend to service the Selkirk, Beausejour, Eriksdale,etc .1 areas from the Winnipeg office, but as you will appreciate, it is a short distance to travel and I am sure that they will get effective service there from this new officer. By the 1st of July we hope to have the Dauphin district staffed with a juvenile and adult probation officer after completion of a suitable in-training program in Winnipeg for another new officer.

With regard to the statistical field in probation I might mention to you that as of December 31st, Mr. Chairman, that is 1959, there were 292 adult cases under supervision by the probation staff. This represents a slight drop from the figure that I gave you last year but it will be appreciated that cases are terminated and new cases are added and as a result during the seven months that elapsed since I last dealt with this question, it so happens that more cases have terminated than have been added, so that the figure is down somewhat slightly from last year's figuN.

Last year, I think it was 312 - last July's figure. During 1959 no less than 18]. furmer cases on probation were terminated as satisfactory. During the year also the total court cost paid and restitution paid by those on probation amounted to approximately $7, 500. And perhaps the happiest factor of all, Mr.

Chairman, is at that the incidence of recidivism among those on probation in Manitoba still remains at a figure of less than 10%, in order words better than 90% of those who are given the privilege of suspended sentence with probation service t.o date have not gone back to their old ways - have kept on the straight and narrow and have gone out into the world and have made productive citizens of themselves.

Now I don't want to be the one who is going to say optimistically this proves undoubtedly the plan is working because we have to give these people two, three, four, five years out on probation before we can tell what the impact of that scheme has been - the full impact. But immediately we can take note of the fact, Mr. Chairman, that the results to date have been extremely heartening and certainly we intend to continue the work in this field with the same endeavour and the same vigour that has been applied to it up to date by the members of the probation staff. I may say a word now, Mr.

Chairman, about the director of-corrections and his office. I think the honourable members will recall that when my estimates were last before the Committee I intimated that consideration was being given to the enlargement of the duties of tte director of corrections to ensure that all matters relating to provincial gaols, juvenile institutions, and the matters in connection with the correctional and rehabilitation field should be placed under his direct authority. Heretofor the director's duties were Page 792 February 22nd, 1960

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) ••..••• restricted to the probation and parole field and the large personal involvement in the work of Winnipeg Juvenile Family Court. I am now pleased to report, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Alfred J. Kitchen, the director of corrections, has been given this enlarged administrative authority over the whole field of corrections in the Province of Manitoba. In addition he has been appointed an inspector of gaols and will now be responsible for all of the duties of that office. This enlargement of Mr.

Kitchen's responsibilities and the addition of new duties as inspector of gaols is designed to permit a more integrated and co ordinated penal and correction program throughout the whole province. Furthermore it en sures that a man who is well trained in the whole field of correctional work will have primary administrative responsibility for this important field of my department's work.

I might also mention in connection with the welding of these two positions, that is, of the director of corrections and the inspector of gaols, that as it is so often the case of listening to other people, even members of the opposition, good ideas come forth and in this instance I must give some credit to the Province of British Columbia where they have a government of even a third of political strife, and when I was out at Vancouver in the early days of September of this year, I spent a day at their Haney institution at their Gold Creek work camp.

I had very interesting conversations with the members of the directorate of corrections, with the Attorney-General himself, and found there that the scheme of appointing the director of corrections also inspector of gaols was a sui.table scheme, they had found, in that province, where their problem of course, is much larger than ours. And so, borrowing somewhat from their experience, we .have decided and have done in this province the same thing, namely, to weld the two positions together to permit more integration and 'c o-ordination of the overall correctional program in the province. I think a few words, Mr.

Chairman, would be in order in connection with the Manitoba Home for Girls. Members of the committee may perhaps have seen in the newspapers during the time that the House has been in recess that the services of a new superintendent of the Home for Girls have been acquired by the government in the person of Mr. Douglas Lawrence. Mr. Lawrence has been on staff since late last fall and has paid particular attention in the intervening weeks to the completion of the new home and to the requisitioning of supplies and of furniture and the gathering together of staff which will be utilized when the home is opened.

With regard to the opening date of the home, I should mention that it is expected that the new home will start receiving delinquent girls some time in the month of April . Members of the committee will recall it was first anticipated that the building would be completed in December of 1959. However, because of the poor building season which--weather affects not only the farmers in Manitoba; I can assure yotl Mr.

Chairman that it affected a good number of the builders in Manitoba and particularly the builders on this site, particularly on account of the wet ground in this sloping atea near the river where the building is being erected, the contract ors were held up considerably this past fall. The new building itself will be ready for occupan cy, we hope, some time within the next two to three weeks, that is some time in March, but the staff wish to have everything in readiness and take an extra two or three weeks before any of the girls are admitted to the home.

They want to have the staff used to the building, used to its mechanical means of operation and so on and so forth before any girls are brought in to it. We do not therefore intend to rush the transfer of the girls, the bulk of wtcm at the present time are in the Home of the Good Shepherd until the superintendent and his staff have this opportunity to prepare not only the building but to prepare themselves for this long term venture which they are embarking upon in a new plan.

The present indications, and these of course vary from week to week, but present indications are that the new building will have a total initial population of somewhere between 35 and 40 girls drawn from the old temporary site of Dynavor, The Home of the Good Shepherd. Those girls who have nearly completed their sentence who are within a week or two or three weeks of completing their sentence in existing institutions will in all probability except in exceptional cases, be allowed to go with out having to go through the transformation of moving into a new home.

We think that from the advice that we have received that this would be the best in the long run interests of the girls who are nearing the completion of their terms for the length of their sentences. I mentioned earlier, Mr. Chairman, I wish to make a few comments, not too many, but a few concerning the extension course in corrections which has been undertaken by the University February 22nd, 1960 Page 793

(Mr . Lyon, cont'd) •.•••.•• of Manit oba in conjunction with the Attorney-General's depart ment . This is the first time that a course of this nature has been undertaken in this province . It is a twelve-week course of lectures on corrections and I can assure the committee, Mr. Chairman, that we were only too happy to be able to assist and to co-operate with the Univer sity of Manitoba in presenting this new series of lectures for those particularly engaged in the correctional field in Manitoba.

The course is primarily designed to acquaint those working in the field with the history, philosophy and working processes of the correctional field . It will conclude with a survey of current practives in the correctional field; elsewhere in an attempt that will be ma de to outline the goal of any correctional program . I have complete information which the committee might have when we come to that item in the estimate s, complete information as to the courses which are given and so on .

I think the one significant factor that should be mentioned is this: that the course is going to be started, or when it was first planned it was to be started for a total enrolment of 30.

But so great has the interest been, not only from within my own staff, and I refer to members of the staff at Headingley Gaol, some members of the probational staff, members of the staff of the penitentiary and so on, and other people engaged in this field, that they have had applications exceeding 100 to take the course with the result that three courses had to be scheduled to accomm odate the large numbers of those active in the field who wished to have the advantage of hearing the professional workers in the field discourse and lecture on the question of corrections.

I am particularly to note that we have staff members from the Manitoba Home for Boys, the Home for Girls, and the women's gaol, the boys' detention home, the girls' detention home, that is , the two in Bond Street, juvenile probation officers, adult probation officers � members of the Sheriff's office, a member of the judicial staff of the Juvenile and Family Court, members of the staff from the rehabilitation camp as mentioned, the Manitoba Penitentiary, the Winnipeg city police department, East Kildonan, West Kildonan city police department, Salvation Army, Army Provost Corps, National Employment Service , a J udge of the High Court of Manitoba - very commendable I thi nk - members of the John Howard-Elizabeth Fry Society, staff of the Home of the Good Shepherd, and members for the Catholic Welfare Centre , to mention only a few who are represented in this course in correction which is now being given.

I think it is a most encouraging fact to note that we have had such a widespread response from all of these fields, from all of these persons who are interested in the field of correction, and this I feel that I can safely say, as I did earlier, that the sentiment and the understanding and the attitude of the general public today is much better. I won't sa y, I won't repeat and say ''much more enlightened" but I say much better than it has been in many years past, and this type of program is receiving great support and great interest from among members of the general public .

I think a word or two would be .in order, Mr . Chairman, in connection with another subject which is of considerable interest to members of the committee . Members of the committee will reca ll that when our e"stimates were last before the committee I reported that consideration was being given to an interim report of the Manitoba Committee on Youth to determine what effect should be given to their recomm endations, their interim recomm endations re the establishment of some continuing body to consider further advances in this field. It will also be remembered, Mr .

Chairman, that the terms of reference of the Manitoba Committee on Youth were very broad in that they were asked to enquire into the causes of juvenile delinquency among other things, which has , of course, engaged the attention of many learned specialists in this field, in fact , many university departments for very many years .

Our thinking on the subject has been and is now that in concurrence with the additional emphasis on correctional work which is now being carried on in the department, some continuing type of committee to advise on the juvenile aspects of the correctional program is most certainly desirable. I will therefore be bringing forward an amendment to the Attorney-General's Act which will give the Lieutenan t-Governor-in-Council power to appoint advisory committees for various purposes in connection with the department .

I should say that it is my intention to utilize this amendment if it is agreed to by the Hou se for the purpose of setting up an Attorney-General's advisory and co-ordinating committee on youth. It would be hoped that while the committee would not be so large as to be unmanageable that we could draw to its rank persons who have a deep and long standing interest in this problem, many of Page 794 February 22nd, 1960

(Mr . Lyon, continued) ..•. whom participated I should say in the work of the original committee on youth. As envisaged by the department, this committee when established would meet severa l times during the year with the director of corre ctions, members of the institutional and correc tional staff and officers of other departments of government which sponsor youth programs to advise the government, and particularly my department as to how its work among juveniles could be made more effective; and to advise on any other matters which they believe the government should take cognizance of.

I wish at this time, Mr . Chairman, to pay particUlar tribute to the work of the chairman of Manitoba Committee on Youth, Mr . Montague Israels, Q. C. He has been of invaluable assistance throughout our discussions and consideration of this problem. I can only hope that we (and by we I mean the government and the people of Manitoba) will continue to have the benefit of his experience, his interest and his knowledge in this field in the future. Now, if I may leave the field of corre ctions , 1\ir.

Chairman, I should like to move on to another item which honourable members have no doubt seen in the estimates which is dese rving of some attention at this time . For many years, Mr . Chairman, it has been a fact that some change was needed in the arrangement of particularly the cou nty court district boundaries in the Province of Manitoba. The files of my department indicate that as far back as 1934 the then inspector of legal offices had submitted suggestions and ideas for the improvement of this system.

Members of the House will be interested to know that at the present time there are 63 county court districts in the Province of Manitoba with the exception of the larger centres, these are staffed mainly by part time clerks and bailiffs who are fee paid and whose income therefore depends entirely upon the amount of work carried on in the court in that particular district. It has been increasingly difficult particularly since the end of world war IT to obtain the services of suitable persons to fill these offices since the remuneration, by and large , which accrues to the office is very small.

Now I don't want it to be thought, Mr . Chairman, that I am implying any criticism of those benighted souls who are presently holding these positions . Let me say only this about their service, that I am amazed every time I look at the list that we have the people of the calibre we do have holding these positions at the present time, positions of some responsibility and of great importance in the administration of justice in the county court, holding these positions for the very small pittance that is paid to them by way of fees for their service .

I imply no criticism of them at atu but I think many of them would agree with me when I say that the system which has developed over the years have proved to be less than satisfactory. Furthermore , it has became apparent over the years that a very minimum amount of work is conducted through very many of the county court district offices in Manitoba. The bulk of the work of course, going through the large offices in the larger centres . Since as suming responsibility, Mr .

Chairman, for my department, I have had numerous discussi ons with members of the Board of County Court Judges, the Law Society of Manitoba, the Bar Assoc iation of Manitoba in regard to this problem . I can report that all ar_e in agree ment that some action should be taken and soon to remedy the many deficiencies which exist in our present system . With this thought in mind you will see that there has been provided in the estimates an amount for the establishment of a Commiss ion on Judicial Boundaries .

Some may say that the work of reorganizing the County Court Districts might well be done within the Attorney-General's Department itself, that is by members of my own staff. But Mr . Chairman, I hold to the view that the main recommend ations the main working out of a new adjustment of boundaries and of other matters which v<lill be brought to the attention of the committee should be made by persons preferably outside of the government who have years of service in the broad field of justice in Manitoba and who particularly are acquainted with the needs of rural Manitoba.

We therefore propose to have a sm all commis sion but one which will adequately represent the views of all of the people of Manitoba and particularly the views of those persons resident in what we loosely call rural Manitoba, because the bulk of these districts affect the citizens-living outside of the greater Winnipeg area. Consideration is also being given to per mitting this commissi on to review judicial districts and land titles district boundaries at the same time . I think it will be appreciated Mr .

Chairman, that as the work and services of government increase throughout the province we have many different conflicting boundaries for municipalities, for school districts, for school divisions; for land titles, for judicial February 22nd, 1960 Page 795

(Mr. Lyon, continued) ..... districts and so on and so forth. The main purpose in giving consideration to a review of judicial and land titles district boundaries is to permit if possible of more co -ordination between these boundaries and those of any new boundaries which may be suggested for county court districts. I think this commission will do work of great value to the province in the' field of the administration of justice. As I have mentioned this is a matter which has besieged my predecessors in office right up to the· time I know of the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains.

It has besieged them over the years for at least 25 to 30 years , and we are hopeful that by taking this step at this time we will at least have the opportunity to bring this system of boundaries and the system of administration of justice in these courts more up to date, more in keeping with the needs of 1960 and perhaps devise a plan which will last we hope for another decade or another quarter of a century at least . I would like to make one other digression into the field of law enforcement and to announce to the committee Mr.

Chairman, that the government has agreed in the field of law enforcement to the introduction of radar speed meters in the Province of Manitoba under the jurisdiction of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to take effect approximately on the first of June, 1960. I thought it only fair that honourable members of the committee should be the first to be warned about this because I'm sure that .... MR . HILLHOU SE: Where are you going to use them first? MR. ROBLIN: On the road to Selkirk. MR. LYON: On the road to Selkirk I think would be a good spot.

I thought Honourable Members of the Committee should be the first to have this officially because undoubtedly the seeing eye will have to cast its winking and blinking eye upon them from time to time as I am sure it will upon me from time to time. I may say for the information of the committee Mr. Chairman, that this decision if not -- I don't consider it a major matter but it is certainly a matter of some importance -- this decision was made after thorough discussions with the R.C .

M.P. re traffic and accident control and after members of the department and members of the safety branch and myself had witnessed a demonstration of the equipment in the province last August. I think it is also interesting to note that Manitoba is the last of the provinces which has an R. C. M. P. contract for provincial policing to make use of this equipment. Now I don't know that that fact is significant of anything but I mention it only for the edification of the committee. I think we could draw this conclusion, in fact I know we could from the words and from the discussions I have had with the R. C. M.

P. , from senior officers down to con stables to a man, they all say that this is an excellent enforcement aid. It for one thing reduces the inevitable danger which always arises in cases of hot pursuit after speeding vehicles and so on; the inevitable danger that either the car being pursued or the car pursuing will have a flat tire or run into some misadventure whereby other innocent people may be injured or even worse.

And having the advantage of this stationary equipment which does the job as effectively and I may say a great deal more accurately than the average constable sitting looking at his speedometer -- ·having this stationary equipment has been found in all other provinces where the R. C. M. P. have jurisdiction to be of definite assistance to them in the safety field. (interjection) ... Yes, oh yes, they are quite visible -r ight out on the road. Signs will be there too. I' ll get into that in a moment.

The ].!nit - that is the radar unit, and I think perhaps because of the interest of the hon ourable the leader of the CCF I should give a bit of this background information -t he unit actually serves two useful purposes. First of all it is an aid to enforcement traffic laws, that's the primary reason which comes to mind; and secondly it has a preventive enforcement value through the psychological reaction. I'm not merely just quoting words which are given to me, I've seen this in effect in the province of Ontario and in other provinces and I have seen the attitude of motorists myself.

When they see the sign 'T hese highways are patrolled by radar !, there is an instantaneous effect upon the average driver which causes him to ease his paw off the pedal and to pay some heed to this road sign at least. Another interesting fact of course is that these units are supplied by the federal govern ment through the R.C .M.P . at no cost to the province, and of course that is a factor which must be considered when equipment of this type and value is brought into use in Manitoba .

June the first as I have mentioned is the approximate target date for the introduction of the radar speed mt:Jters; this is to allow time to secure the equipment, to sign the highways which Page 796 February 22nd, 1960

' (Mr. Lyon, continued) ... I think is a most important prerequisite and to train the police per-; sonnel in its use. Signs indicating that radar is in use in the province will be posted at .all trunk highway border points, at the outskirts of cities and larger points orr trunk highways entering and leaving and also at strategic positions throughout the province and especially in areas which are accident-prone, and of course areas which are accident-prone are the areas which will receive attention from this equipment. The R. C. M.

P. operators are required to complete a course of instructioR sponsored by the University of British Columbia and the University of New Brunswick and to be certified ''Proficient" in this technical field before they're allowed to operate in any province in Canada. We have that assurance from the police and I know from seeing these trained operators that they do go through a very stiff course and a very good course to enable them to operate and to interpret the results of the operation of the equipment.

It is the intention during the first months operation of the equipment to warn violators about any alleged breaches of it with warning tickets, following which after this month's breaking in period, standard highway traffic act speeding tickets will be handed out for any breaches . But this was thought to be a proper introduction of the equipment because of course the public must come to understand it, everyone must come to understand how it works, and we don't wish to push this down the throats of anyone without their having the opportunity to see it, see how efficient it is in order to understand how it works .

Now I don't· think too much else is required with respect to the discussion on radar; I will be able to answer any reasonable questions on this point when that particular item arises in the estimates. I might just say in conclusion on that field that we do intend to have as much advance publicity on this matter as possible, and I know that the members of the press gallery are listening to me tonight and I may say that that is why I gave it a bit of attention tonight because I think it is a new technique which requires publicity and thereby understanding by members of the public before it is put into use .

Now these are the main topics upon which I wish to make reference tonight, Mr. Chair man. As I pointed out at the outset of my remarks, there wasn't going to be too much new because only seven months have elapsed since I last stood in my place and discussed with you the work of this department. I hope that there aren't too many disappointed faces opposite at either the lack of work or the great amount of work that• s been done by the department in the interveirlng time, but should there be any reasonable questions I would certainly attempt to answer them as we reach the individual items.

Before I conclude, I should like to take the opportunity to pay a sincere tribute to the staff of my department for their excellent co-opera tion and their diligent efforts toward the efficient operation of the Attorney-General's Depart ment. I won't make the mistake of singling out any individuals -- although there are certainly one or two who deserve special commendation -- since each man in the staff from the lowest to the highest level is equally deserving of praise. February 22nd, 1960 Page 797

MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, at the outset I wish to state that I'm not the official critic of our group in connection with the Attorney-Gene ral's estimates. The heavy overtures are still to come . I would just li.ke to ask a few questions and make one or two comments at the present time. One that worries me for a long time is the reason that the department has ap pointed a supervisor or superintendent in charge of the Home for Girls a social worker, a man, instead of -- this job which I think could be better handled by a woman. I think that she would be more sympathetic.

The children that are there are not criminals , they have side-stepped, they have erred, they've got to send them home rehabilitated and have a good opportunity to start life over again . The reason why a man was appointed was a g·reat surprise when I read it in the press and perhaps-the Minister can find an explanation, although to me personally I don •t think what explanation he could give to satisfy the public or perhaps the parents of the girls. Mr. Chai rman , I hold here in my hands the gaol report dated March 31 st, 1958. May I ask if there's a later one? MR. LYON: That's the last? -MR.

GRAY: That's the last? Pardon? MR. LYON: Oh no, there was one ... MR. GRAY: The one I have is 1958 -- ending March 31 st, 158. MR. LYON: Oh no. MR. GRAY: I tried to get the latest one but, however, the figures are approximately the same and the report was very ably prepared and I admit that we had in Mr. Littlewood a good superintendent. I think he's trying to do his best under the circumstances , But there are a few figures .here still alarming, One is the number of repeaters.

This is a very serious situation , and this situation in my humble opinion is due entirely -- I wouldn •t say to lack of rehabilitation -- but not com plete program of rehabilitation. I suggested last year and I sug gest now, that those in the Commi ttee for Rehabi.li.tation should try and get employers, em ploy ers of labour, because when any average boy makes application for a position there's always the question 'have you ever been convicted". and he's got to say yes or commit perjury, and if he says yes he's out -- he's through -- no matter how ab le or willing he is .

I appreciate also the employer doesn't want to take a chanc e on one that has already served gaol for an of fence, maybe a small offence i.t doesn't matter. So I think perhaps in the committee of rehabil itation you should in terest the employer for him to take an interest in the boy. If he can't trust him with cash he could trust him with sweeping the floor or packing packages. At least let him know, give him a start again , and this in my opinion is -- the lack of employment is chiefly -- I don't say all -- the cause of a repeater.

Secondly, there is a very alarming figure -- out of 3, 000 turnover in. a year over 1, 600 served llnder' three months. Apparently if a person is sentenced to three months or under, I don't think is a very serious man to be out. The offences may be small. In this case I think perhaps he should be discharged eai'liet" than the usual days off for good conduct and give at least those up to three months which we are not considering them a nuisance or a danger to society, a little improvement in the days off from his sentenc e·.

There is another serious, in my opinion, figure here with nearly two-thirds of the population, turnover population, under 40 years of age -- from 16 to 40 -- which comes back again to the question of rehabilitation. I do not think that young offenders should be given a mark 0f a convict because he still has a long life ahead of him and he could do some good and probably make a contribution to society and particularly to the taxpayer. Then finally for the momen t, this recomme ndation of the superintendent as to salary increase for the guards in view of the many resignations .

Naturally it's not an easy job; it's a-responsible job; i.t needs a good man; it's a very responsible job and I would like to see the recomm endation be considered by the department. Then I was quite disturbed persona lly of the Crown appealing against a sentence by a trained, appointed, independent judge, The judges in Canada here are the finest people we know of; they are very inde pendent; they are getting a fairly good salary and on the average they are kind hearted, And my humble opinion is the Crown is the people's defender and not a prosecutor. I hate the word "prosecutor".

I think the word "prosecutor" throws a scare to the people of the world. I think they should be called 'peoples' defenders'. It isn't their business to find them guilty. It's the judge's busin ess. In my opinion -- I'm not a lawyer -- and my opinion is that your department, the lawyers working Page 798 February 22nd, 1960

(Mr. Gray, cont'd. ) ••. in your department should bring all the facts against the convict before the judge and not try to wln a case, which in my humble .:>pinion judging by the fact that you have to appeal a case I think the plan is to wln a case. This was the case in Europe. They went all the way to convict a man and that's why they put a scare when they have a prosecutor appear before the case.

First of all call them public defender s, call them state defend ers, call them any name you like but not prosecutors because if he is a prosecutor he prosecutes and that's not the busine ss of the Attorney-General's Department. It's my personal point of view, I may be entirely wrong and I'll be glad if the Honourable the Attorney-General will put me on the right path. This is just about all I want to mention at this time. I think that your report on the Min ister's salary was an excellent one.

I don't want to give the Minister too much praise because I'm afraid that he may stop right now and not try for more im provement. The little im prove ments that you have made are very excellent. I am pleased to see that you have a good grip on your job but im provement in penal ref orm, the idea of putting young offende rs back in life again is one of the most im portant; it will take you years to do it; you will be blessed by every one and I think the state would benefit by it, also the families of the boys.

We must realize -- I know from the boys arrested, the whole neighborhood is picking on the mother and the fath er. Many times they have to move out from the neighborhood and many times they have to move to another city. It's not a pleasant thing for parents to have to do and the only thing to do is train them. Train them before they go. That's where the school comes in; that's where the church comes in; here's where the parents come in too. True.

But this shall also be the duty of the province, of the legal ' department of the province that they should concern themselves not fol lowing prosecutions , not by sending them to gaol but also to prevent them from going to gaol or once they go put them back on their feet. MR. illLLHOUSE: Mr. Chairman, in the fir st place I would like to compliment the Honoarable the Attorney-General on the very full and comprehensive re port that he has given and to assure him that in all matters which have as their objective the rehabilitation of these people who are so unf ortunate as to be incarcerated.

He has the full support of everyone in this group and that he also has the full support of everyone in this group in any and all matters that have as their objective a liberal for m of penal refo rm. After listening to the last speaker and his feelings towards prosecutors being defend ers, I would like to make this suggestion to the Honourable the Attorney-General. I have several cases on in Selkirk Friday morning; there's members of your department going down there and I hope you will impress upon them that their job is to defend not to prosecute. Now there is one or two matters that I would like to deal with.

First matter that I would like to deal with is the matter of the increase in the legal fe e. Now let me assure you, Mr. Chairman, I am not dealing wlth lawyers ' fee s, I'm dealing wlth the fees charged by the various departments that come under the jurisdiction of the Attorney-General.

Now I'm not opposed to increases in fees if that increase is neces sary in order to pay costs, nor am I opposed to an increase in fees if that increase is nece ssary in order to give to the Civil Servants in that department a wage which is comm ensurate wlth the type of work that they're doing, · but I am opposed to the increase in fees if fees are increased for the purpose of raising revenue.

Now unfortunately we have not to date been furn ished with sufficient inf ormation from the government side of the House to show to us that the fee s, the increase in fees charged by them since taking office are solely for the purpose of paying costs and until such time as we are furni shed with information which will prove to us that that in crease was not made necessa ry was not impleme nted for the purpose of raising revenue , we must imply that the increase was for that particular purpose . Now the Honourable the First .

Minister -- I forget where he was speaking but speaking on the question of fees -- he suggested that fees should be commensurate with the service. Now I don't know how you're going to determine the service that is rendered a person who is being sued in a court, to determine what fee would be comm ensurate with the service that you are rendering him and I think the only yard stick of measuring fees charged in court is on the basis of what does i.t cost to operate these courts ?

Now another thing that I would li.ke to be quite clear about and that is this, that in the Court of Queen's Bench the tariff has been com pletely revised and completely changed and the increases in fees for the various services rendered by that Court range from moderate to ex treme. Now I'm not suggesting for a moment that that increase of fees on the civil side of that February 22nd, 1960 Page 799

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont•d. ) ..• Court were imposed to pay the cost of criminal prosecutions but I would suggest to the Honourable the Attorney-General that he submits to this House or to this Committee suff icient facts to show that the increase in fees on the civil side of that Court were not im plemented for that purpose.

Now it's not my intention to bore the members of this House by going into the various tariffs of fees in the Land Titles Offic e, the County Court, the Surro gate Court, the Court of Queen's Bench and all the other Courts that are run by the Attorney General, but in view of the fact that the fees charged by this government have increased in all departments, I think that I should give to this committee a specific case of an estate they valued at $20, 000 all going to the widow and show to this committee what effe ct that that general in crease in fees across the board means to that widow.

Now as I say it's an estate of $20, 000. The fee that that widow will pay in the Surrogate Court for having her husband's will probated had been increased from $33 . 50 to $40. 00, an increase of $6 . 50. The fe es fo r publishing the notice to creditors under the Trustee Act -- that's a charge made by the Provincial Secretary -- has been increased from $3 . 00 to $4. 00, an increase ·of $1. 00. The fee for filing a Notarial copy of Letters of Probate in the Land Titles Off ice has been increased fr om $3.5 0 to $4. 50, an inc rease of $1. 00.

Now assuming that in that $20, 000 estate the dwelling house is worth $10, 000, the fees payable to the Land Titles Off ice on a transmission application have increased from $12. 00 to $20.0 0, or an increase of $8 . 00. Now the fee to pass the estate in the Land Titles Offi ce remains the same as it was before $ 3. 00.

Then after the transmission has issued title in the name of the widow, or the Execatrix of her husband's estate, there is another fee payable to the Land Titles Off ice transferring from her1 as Executrix to herself as beneficiary under the will and that fee has increased from $12 .0 0 to $15.0 0 or an increase of $3 . 00. Now ass uming that the Solicitor who acts for that widow has his bill of costs taxed by the Registrar of the Surrogate Court, the fee of the taxation of that btil of costs has increased from $1. 00 to $ 5. 00.

So the fees that would have been payable on the estate of that size prior to tiE general increase in fees that took place, would h·ave been $78. 00,

whereas the fees under the 11-ew tariff are now $91. 50, an increase of 30%. Now, Mr. Chairman, that may not seem to be a very high increase, but I look upon es tates in a diffe rent light the way th3y have been treated by the government in making those in crease s.

I think if the Federal Government under the old Succession Duty Act, and under the new Estate Tax Act where they give an exemption of $60, 000 to a widow -- there's no tax pay able -- plus $10 ,0 00 for each child under 21 years of age not benefi tting under the terms of the will, now it seems to me that we in Manitoba, particularly since we have embraced with both arms the concept of the welfare state and since afte r listening to the Honourable Minister of Health and Welfare introducing into this House his new Social Security legislation and his com ments , or at least the com ments which were made by his counterparts in Ottawa, about our Act being the most com prehensive, and the best Social Security Act that he had ever read.

Now, since we have embraced that concept, and since we have even gone farther than providing from the cradle to the. grave but actually provide from conception to resurrection, I think it's only right and fair that we sho•1ld also take into consideration who is benefitting under this will, whether a widow is benef itting or whether a stranger is benefit ting. And I think instead of graduating our fees in the Surrogate Court, and on the Land Titles Offi ces with respect to es tates we should not only consider the value of the estates, but we should consider the relation ship of the beneficiary to the deceased.

And I would suggest to the Honoctrable the Attorney General that he take that matter under advisement with a view to reducing the fees payable by widows in the Surrogate Court to a sum which is more reasonable and more in keeping with the spirit of the Es tate Tax Act. Now, another example of where they have -- where they were making a widow pay more than she paid before -- supposing a husband dies and the title of the home is in the joint names of himself and his wife .

Under the tariff as it exists before the change was made, there was a fee of $5 . 00 paid by the Land Titles Office to file a request to have a new title issued in the name of the survivor. Now that fee has been increased to $10. 00, an increase of lOO%, and I think that is another example of where no increase should have been made. I don't care how much you charge for probating an estate where the beneficiary in that estate is some stranger or somebody far removed from the testator but for goodness sake don't try to raise money out of the widows and orphans. Page 800 February 22nd, 1960

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont1d. ) .•• Now another thing too , is this, what effect have those increases in legal fees and various provincial services meant to the municipalities? The public notices that municipalities have to publish under the Manitoba Gazette, the cost of publication has gone up. The fees that munici palities now have to pay into the Land Titles Office for filing liens and discharging liens have been doubled. The other day I registered a drainage plan for the Municipality-o f St. Andraws.

Had I registered that drainage plan before the increase in the tariff went into effect, it would have cost me $5. 00. You know what it cost me the other day? It cost me $31. 00, an increase of 520%. Now why boast about what you're doing for municipalities when you're taking it out of them that way? MR. FRED GROVES (St. Vital) : What are the lawyers fees on that $20, 000 estate. MR. illLLHOUSE: Our fees are taxed by the Registrar of the Surrogate Court. MR. GROVES: That's not what I asked. MR . illLLHOUSE: You're supposed to be a professional man. MR. GROVES: Yeah. MR . illLLHOUS'E: Now, I think Mr.

Chairman, that this House is entitled to know whe ther or no the government has increased these legal fees for the purpose of revenue or whether they have increased them for the purpose of paying their way.

And I think in order to satisfy us in that point that we're entitled to statements of revenue and expenditures in respect of the Win nipeg Land Titles Office for each of the past five years, for the various Land Titles Offices in Manitoba for each of the last five years, the Surrogate Court of the Eastern Judicial District for each of the last five yea rs, from each of the other Surrogate Courts in Manitoba for each of the last five years, from the other County Courts operated in Manitoba, from the Court of Queen's Bench of the Eastern Judicial District, and for the other Courts of Queen's Bench op erated in the other Judicial Districts in Manitoba.

Now there's another matter which I'd like to deal with and that is in connection with the Land Titles Office and that is that fund known as the assurance fund. In every transfer that is registered in the Land Titles Office there's a charge of one-quarter of 1% made against the registration fee to go into a fund which is known as the Assurance Fund. Now that fund has been in existence ever since the Real Property Act was brought into operation in Manitoba. And what I'd like to know abo'.lt that fund is what is the present standing of that fund?

And since its inception how much money has been collected in that fund? How much has been paid out and how much if any, has been transferred to Consolidated Revenue for each of the years since its inception ? Now I think we're entitled to know that information, because if the government has increased fees with a purpose of paying its way in those various departments that's fine, but until such time as we have that information, I think we're entitled to assume that those in creases were inaugurated for the purpose of revenue.

Now the last time I th:nk the Attorney-General brought his estimates into this House, he mentioned the fact that he was going to set up a commit tee similar to one in existence in Ontario for the purpose of advising him on matters -- advising him resp9cting changes that should be made in the law. Now the -- no mention was made of that com mittee when the Attorney-General spoke and I hope before his estimates are through that he will advise us whe ther he has ever appointed that comm ittee and what has been done by that comm ittee.

Now there are one or two matters respecting the general law that I would like to discuss and the first matter deals with what is commo �y called transient traders. At the last session of this legislature we repealed our Transient Traders Act and today the only regulations res pecting transient traders are to be found in municipal by-laws if a I!'unicipality has taken the trouble to enact a by-law .

Now during the course of the last year I have had numerous com plaints made to me by people in my constituency, who have either been criminally defrauded by transient traders or have been taken for a ride by transient traders. I took it upon myself to make enquiries from the RCMP to determine whether or no my exp9rience was unique or whether that was the general experience that they had found, and I believe that I am safe in saying that there is hardly a RCMP detachment in Manitoba that has not had complaints made to them at some time or another regarding these transient traders.

Now I think that those people are going into rural areas in Manitoba, in a great number of instances they are not even taking out a municipal license fee to operate, they're com peting with people who live in the February 22nd, 1960 -P age 801

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd. ) .•. district, who pay taxes in the district and it's a most unfair type of compe �tion. And I think some steps should be taken to at least control their activities.

Now in the Province of Saskatchewan, and no doubt I'll have my mouth washed out with soap after mentioning this , they have set up what is known -- they have passed what is known as the Com mercial Agents 1 Act, under whtch comm ercial agents who are the same as our old transient traders have to take out a provincial license, through the Provincial Secretary's office, and it's interesting to note in reading this Act tha safeguards for the public that are enacted therein.

Now in the first place, no person shall carry on business of a commer cial agent in the province unless he is the holder of a subsisting license under this Act as a commercial agent or as a salesman of a licensed commer cial agent. Then there's another

section which says that even after getting the provincial license he still has to get the municipal license. But the point that interests me is this , it provides that , every comm ercial agent or salesman shall immediately upon execution of any contract entered into in the course of his business with the purchaser deliver to the purchaser a true copy there of. And another

section too, which is quite interesting, no action can be brought by a com mercial agent against a purchaser unless he's licensed under the Act or unless he has given to the purchaser a copy of the contract signed by the purchaser. Now the most important provision in the Act which is really a safeguard to the public, is this , that the Provincial Secretary, before granting a license, either as a commer cial ·agent or a commercial salesman, can insist upon that person being bonded.

Now I would commend that Act to the Attorney-General with a view to having it enacted in Manitoba, because I can assure this committee that there is a real need in rural Manitoba for controlling the activities of these people who go around as pedlars and hawkers and whatnot, selling goods to the public at exhorbitant prices and sometimes are actually com mitting criminal fraud. Now a few years ago I raised in this House the advisability of enacting into our law a conditional sales act, along the lines of that recomm ended by the Manitoba Commissioners on Uniformity of Legislation in Canada in 1955.

And the reason why I suggested at that time that we should enact that legislation was twofold; one, it provided for the registration of conditional sales contracts in Manitoba, and two, it placed certain restraints on a vendor under a condi tional contract in the remedies that he could enforce under his contract.

Now the reason why I brought that up at that time was due to a case which had come to my attention of a young boy 20 years of age who had purchased a 1951 Chevrolet car for $1, 395 in respect of which he made a cash payment of $241. 62, leaving a balance of $1, 053. 38, and when the insurance and finance charges were added, he owed the finance com pany $1, 651. 20. Now this boy fell down on his payments, his car was seized, at the time of seizure he owed $87 8. 53 on his car. He was charged $483. 38 to recondition the car which made the total which he then owed the finance comp any $1, 318. 04.

Now as far as that reconditioning goes I know that he had spent upwards of $100 having that car fixed about a mo nth before it was seized. Now that car was sold for $1, 095, there was a balance which he owed the finance com pany of $223 .0 4 but when the fin ance com pany sold that car they took in a second hand car in trade and for $450. They recon ditioned the second hand car which was took in trade which cost $37. 42, so it was $487. 42 that they -- on the car that they took in. Then they sold that car which they took in for $475 and they lost $12. 42 in the transaction.

Then they charged the commission of $109. 50 for selling the man's car that they seized and they charged a commission of $47. 50 for selling the second hand car which they took in on trade. So the final upshot was that the kid still owed them $392. 46. Now the point that I raised then was this, that there should be some uniform price of conditional sales contracts for use in the Province of Manitoba, there should be a type of contract which places all unpaid vendors in the same position and all purchasers in the same position. .And the powers of resale, etc. in that conditional sales contract should be limited.

Under our Farm Machinery Act we have a conditional sales contract which ls uniform through out Manitoba in respect of farm machinery. And in that contract there are certain powers that the machine com pany is given in the event of default. And I think a perusal of that Act would show the members of the committee that the powers that are given to the com pany are fair, and that the safeguards that the unpaid -- or at least today with respect of conditional sales agree ment, there are no restraints of any kind whatsoever that place upon the conditions of that Page 802 February 22nd, 1960

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd. ) •.. contract. The man who draws up that contract, if the purchaser is foolish enough to sign it, can put any conditions in there that he wants to. There's only one condition under our laws that stands today and that is if they seize they must give them 20 days notice before they sell. But under our law what happened to this boy 20 years of age is quite legal. It can be done.

And it's for that reason that I think it's pretty nearly time that we see introduced into Manitoba, a conditional sales Act, with a conditional sales contract incorpor ated therein which will be fair to the vendor and fair to the purchaser. MR. DAVID ORLIKOW (St. Johns): Mr. Chairman, I want to join -- begin by joining with other: members who have already spoken in com plimenting the Minister for the progress which he reports. We op. this s�de of the House, have always felt that the system of gaols, the system of corrections which is purely punitive would not work and in fact it did not work.

I suppose Canada is the last country, certainly in the western world which got around to adopt ing modern methods of correction including probation and classification systems inasfar as this province is moving in the right direction, we on this side of the House, will certainly com pliment the Minister and the government for the progress which has been made, but I am certain that the Honourable, the Attorney-General would be the fi rst one to admit, and he's already ad mitted it, that we· still have a considerable way to go.

We fe el that the gaol system, if it is to be of any use, must be changed from a system of punishment to a system where, if people must be put in gaol, that they will be helped and rehabilitated so that when they get out they will not likely get into trouble and go back into gaol again. The Honourable the Attorney-Gen eral mentioned in his -- when he spoke this time, during the last session, that the rate of re cidi vism was between 65 and 70%.

This is certainly harmful in terms of human values, and it's certainly expensive in terms of this province or of any province or the federal government which has to bear the cost. And this has its worth in the fact that we certainly are happy that we are moving away from the old method. I want to say, Mr.

Chairman, that I am dis appointed that the Honourable the Attorney-General was not able to report today in much more specific terms as to when we can expect to have the terms made by which the Federal Government would accept the responsibilit-j for all prisoners who have -- who are given a sentence of more than one year. I am not suggesting that this is the fault· of the -- of this government -- I'm sure that the Honourable the Attorney-General would be happy if he could report that this would take place in the foresee able futur e, and specifically when it would take place.

But it does mean that the major changes that have to be made in our correctional system cannot be made, in this I'm not going to be any more critical than I was during the last session, it does mean that our program to a large extent has to be kept in a state of suspension. And I would hope that the Hono·�rable the Attorney-General has already urged the Federal Government to set a date and that he will continue to urge them to set a date and so that we can begin the reorganization of our system. Now I'm not going to spend much time, Mr.

Chairman, because I realize that until this system is changed in an analysis of what 's wrong with the facilit'.es at Headingley, I think this can to a large extent wait for the future . But I am very concerned Mr . Chairman, about the facilities which we do provide in the other institutions. Now I do have a report, the last report which is for the year ending March 31st, 1959, and it may be that conditions have chang" ed very drastic ally since this report was issued, but in this report, we have the report from the Dauphin Gaol, and I just want to quote a few lines from the report -- from that

section of the report, and here's what it says , "Our cell accom modation is sufficient for only eighteen males" but they say, I quote again, "the daily population of inmates now is running to forty odd, and appears to be going to remain at that rate for some time. Double decker bunks have been placed in the areas outside the cells and in the laundry to accommo date the excess of in mates for whom there is no cell accomm odation. " Now the report on Brandon is not quite as specific, but as I read it, and I won't quote it for that reason, but as I read it there is serious over-cro wding at Brandon too.

If this is the case, Mr . Chairman, I think that regardless of what the Federal Government may do that there ought to be an early start in changing this con dition. Now as I remember the. report fro.m Bra,ndon, he. -- .the warden, or whatever the title of the m�n hi charge is -- reports that the gaol there is old, that it's com pletely surrounded by i:he City, and it may be that what we need is a new institution to replace both the Brandon and Dauphin situations. But certainly Mr. Chairman, there can be no real rehabilitation when February 22nd, 1960 Page 803

(:Mr. Orlikow; cont'd. ) .•• prisoners are kept under these conditions. Now Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to take any credit for the fact that the Director of Corrections is now in charge of not only the probation services, but of the gaols, although I did suggest it during the last session, I'm sure that what the Attorney-General saw in British Columbia had a good deal more to do with his decision than what I had to say, but I do think it's a step in the right direction. I feel this is important Mr.· Chairman, because while I have no particular -- no personal criticism to make of Mr.

Littlewood who is the warden at Head ingley, I'm sure that he's doing the best job which he can, but I do suggest to the members of this committee Mr. Cha irman, that by modern standards, the training and qualifications of the warden at Headingley do not meet what is considered adequate training and experience by standards. I can quote from the Manual of Correctional Standards issued by the American Correctional Association, but I think that members who know the background of the warden will realize that this is a fact.

I'm not being critical of the work which he is doing, but I am happy that the Director of Corrections is now in charge and will have the general supervision. What I said about the warden, Mr. Chairman, I think also needs to be said about the staff.

I was glad to hear the Attorney-General report that the number -- a number of the staff at Heading lay and the other institutions are attending this course which is being offered in Corrections at the University, because I was disturbed by the fact that in the report which the warden makes apropos Headingley, he reports that -- and it may have changed since 1959, he reports that - and this is on page three of the last report which we have -- when he is talking about the guards, he mentions the fact that several have been to Kingston to take a training course, and he says: "These complete a total of ten qualified officers who have attended this course.

" I want to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if we are going to do a job of rehabilitation of people who are in the institutions ::--if we are going to give them a chance to make a new start that they will not get into trouble again, that ten or twenty qualified people on the staff at Headingley is not nearly sufficient in terms of what needs to be done. I have a book with me called "Prisoners are People", written by the director of a very fine minimum security institution in California.

He talks about the work which they are doing, and out of a staff of fifty, "super visors" he calls them, not guards, he says this -- and this is a program which they began about fifteen years ago -- and I quote: "Twen ty-nine of these men had college degrees, with four Masters degrees included. In addition, nine had general secondary teacher's credentials and eight more had two years of college training". On top of this, Mr. Chairman, they were given before they began, the job, an eight-week course, and this is what their course consisted of, Mr.

Chairman, and I quote: "The training course was to consist of three parts. Two hours each day of theory and the handling of men, some sociology, psychology, problems of disci pline and the general philosophy of governing the institution. " Now, Mr. Chairman, this is what a modern institution thinks is necessary. Not to .:Joddle the inmates, but to give them the help required, and the direction required so that when they get out of the institution they will be able to begin a fresh start. And I would hope, Mr.

Chairman, that the Honourable the Attorney General, possibly not tonight, would report, possibly when we get to the item, would report to this Committee on the total staff which is available at Headingley and the other institutions at Brandon, at Dauphin, at Portage, also at the new Home for Girls -- the total staff that will be working there, what their training is , what their qualifications are. Mr. Chairman, I'm concerned about the medical staff at the institution.

The report on Headiilgley says that there's a doctor and gives the name of the doctor who is available but this is an institution of over 400 men and from what I have read in the field of correctional work, there ought to be a full time doctor in an institution of this size . And I would like at some point, Mr. Chairman, if the Honourable the Attorney-General could tell this House what does the report mean when it says that there is a medical officer on staff. How much time does he spend at the institution? Does he visit it regularly; how many days a week and so on? I would a!so like to know, Mr.

Chairman, what facilities there are for psychiatric services at Headingley and at the other institutions because if the doctor is there a number of times a week, I suppose that he. can act as a person who could adequately screen the people in the institution and recommend who needs attention. If the doctor isn't there regularly, I doubt very much if the present staff can do this job adequately. And I think that the success of this kind of work Page 804 Febrnary 22nd, 1960

(Mr. Orlikow, continued) ... is the early detection of people who need assistance· and unless the doctor can do it, I am very doubtful if there is anybody who can do it. I'm concerned, Mr. Chairman, about the fact that the Attorney-General has not reported on the· establishment at Headingley or indeed at any of the institutions of a classification system.

Surely, and if you turn to the various reports of the institutions which we have , particularly the -- well, here's the one for Portage, we find what I think is a very unhappy, and I would say a tragic situation and one which bodes ill for the future of the inmate. Here we have 250 inmates in the last year they're reporting at Portage, 178 -- I beg your pardon? -- Admissions - oh, yes . -- A very large number of them, -Mr.

Chairman, are people who are there for the first time but an equally large number or possibly more are people who are there for a second or third time and I want to suggest, Mr. ·c hairman, that there's no way and I' m not an expert in this field and l'm sure that members of the House who are laWYers, who've had experience could vouch for it very well, what I am saying, but there's no way to.insure that a person who gets into an institution for the first time will go back there for a second and third time and to let them spend time with people who are there for a second and third time .

And yet I see nothing -- I've heard nothing from the Attorney-General which would indicate that we're making a start in a system of segregation or a system of classification. I make the same reservation which I did earlier that I realize that it's difficult to know how fast to go on with this task when we're waiting for the Federal Government to completely reorganize the system of correctional institutions . But without a classification system, without a system of segregation, nearly all the work which we attempt to do will be useless .

When the Attorney-General said last year that he was going to hire seven probation officers - and I want to talk about that later - I complimented him and I said -I made the statement -t hat this would be more than they have in the Province of Saska tchewan. Having said that I want to just repeat again what I said last year apropos the classifi cation system which they have at the Regina gaol which I commend to the Attorney-General for study and for emulation, if they're ahead of us .

And here's what I said last year and I think the same is true that they have a classification system, a committee which as I understand consists of a Superintendent who is - who has his Masters in Education, the treatment super visor who has his Masters in Social Work, the psychologist who has his Masters degree in Psychology, the education officer who has a Bachelor of Education degree and a classification officer who has a Bachelor degree in Social Work. Now I' m not suggesting that in Saskatchewan they have accomplished everything; they have along way to go too. But I would think, Mr.

Chairman, that this is something which we can very well follow. They're not the only ones in tlie manual of correctional standards which the American Correctional Association has issued. They say this, in the more adequately staffed institutions the classification committee will consist of the warden, the supervisor of classifications, the social worker or sociologist, supervisor of education, vocational supervisor or councillor, the industry foreman, chaplain, chief medical officer and the psychiatrist or psychologist. Now I would like to know, Mr.

Chairman, what we are doing in this field at the present time, if anything? Something else which disturbs me very much, Mr . Chairman, is what I consider to be the almost complete lack of educational facilities in our institutions. In the reports which we get and they're far from being complete by modern standards, one can't help but be stru.ck by the fact that the vast majority of inmates at Headingley are classified in the -- there's a classification as to occu pation and I think more -- about half of them are classified as 'labourers' .

This means in fact and I'm not being critical of them but this means in fact that they are people who have little or no skills or little or no training as to jobs and yet if you turn to the report apropos Headingley, and Headingley is paradise as compared to what they can do at Brandon or Dauphin, we find that -- here's what they say in the last report, it may have changed for the better, it certainly couldn't be much worse - here's what the warden reports and I quote: "During the fiscal year five inmates were taking educational or technical courses", and then he goes on to say, "F ollowing are the five courses studied, Grade X, Grade VI, Grade XII, Automotive Repair and Maintenance, and Barbering''.

Now, Mr . Chairman, certainly if the inmates of the institutions are going to be helped so that when they get out they will have a chance of not having to go back, there ought to be a program of education, both academic and vocational and technical. And so, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that we ought to !mow in this committee, what staff there is in the institutions . I'm not now going to talk about Dauphin or Brandon because I February 22nd, 1960 Page 805

(Mr. Orlikow, continued) ... presume they're too sm all to have any trained staff in terms of teach ers, but what staff is there in the gaol at Headingley in terms of teaching qualification s, either in the academic field or in the field of vocational training ? And if there aren't, Mr . Chairman, I suggest to the Honourable the Attorney-General that a number of institutions in other jursidictions have over-come this difficulty by calling on the services of the sc hool dis tricts in the area in which they are situate d.

And in the case of Headingiey; it's not so far from the City of Winnipeg that we ought not to be able to call on the services of te ache rs both academic and vocational from the City of Winnipeg. If it's not possi ble, and I think it is possi ble, I think it's necessa rY that there be on the staff at Headingley, which has a population of over 400, a number of trained teachers who could devote full time to the teaching of the people who are there . I think this is a must and one which ought to be followed up very much.

I'm happy to see in the report at Headingley, not so much in the other reports, that there are some facilitie s for recreation -o utdoor recrea tion in the ma in; this is good. I wonder what facilities there are for other than S"(Jort recreatio ns; I wonder and I would be glad if the Minister could tell us that there are facilit ies for and regular provision for things like checkers and. chess and bridge and whist and things which will keep the men happy and interest ed. Be cause I think that this is an important point in their rehabilitiati on . And I want to spend a little time, Mr.

Chairman, on the question of probation. We in this group have always felt that a probation service which would keep people out of the gaols, which would let them continue their regular work under supervision is far superior to incar ceration . And we certainly were happy at the announcem ents which the Minister ma de last year - seven months ago - that he would extend the service and he repeated it and went into it in some considera ble detail today. We are happy that this is so and we commend him for it . I am a little concerned, Mr . Chairman, about the qualifications of the probation officers whom we hire .

Because while I a in not one of those who believe that simply because a ma n has a university degree that he is therefore automatically a good probation officer or a good teacher or anything else, at the same time the people who are experts in this field are pretty insistent that probation, if it is to work, must be staffed -- the probation officer - must be staffed by well-qualified and well trained people .

Now, here's what the Manual of Correctional Standards says about probation officers , here 's what they set forward as suitable standards and I quote: "In term s of educa tion experience , (1) desirab le, completion of two years graduate study in an accredited school of social work or compara ble study in correction, crim ology, psychology, sociology, and other related fields of social science s, preferably with supervised field work and courses in correction ; (2) minimum : graduation from an accredited college or university with a ma jor in a socia l or behavorial sciences and in additional, one of the following: (

a) one year of graduate study in an accredited ··school of social work or comparable study in correction, crim ology, psychology, sociology and other related fields of socia l sc iences, or (

b) one year of full-time paid case- work experience under professio nal direction in a recog nized social agency ." Now Mr . Chai rman, I recognize that we are, in Canada, starting very late in this field, that there is a limited number of trained people in social work in general and an even sm aller number in the field of correctional work. At the same time I want to suggest, Mr .

Chairman, that unless a substantial percentage , at least, of our probation service is well qualified that there is a danger -- I'm not saying that this will happen, I certainly hope that it won't happen, but there is a danger that the probation - that the high hopes which the Minister and I share them, has for the probation service will not ma terialize because the people are not well qualified. And I would like the Minister to tell the members of this commi ttee, again not neces sarily tonight, this may come under the item, how many of the probation officers now on' staff are qualified?

What are their qualificati ons ? How many are university graduate s? How ma ny are graduate s in social work; how many are trained in correctional work? What is the minimum standard for acceptance in this field ? I am told and I hope that the information that I was given was wrong, but I am told that some of the probation officers we are hiring only have a grade XI educat ion.

Now I said a few minute s ago that I don't believe that simply having a B.A. makes a man a suitable probation officer but I suggest to the Honourable the Attorney General that if a person only has a Grade XI educat ion, the chances are not too good that he will prove out . And certainly the people who are much better qualified than I am, in the field, would 'argue that it will not work out. Why did we -- we ought to be given some information on this Page 806 February 22nd, 1960

(Mr . Orlikow, continued) . • • . question I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, what is the case load for the probation officers because the works which I have read by people well qualified in the field would indic ate that no probation officer ought to have a case lqad of :rnqr� than 50 cases in order that he can spend sufficient time with them to do an adequate. j�b .. I �� d.lik� to �ow , Mr. Chairman, what in-service training program there is for p:ppbation officers? I;� h�ppy with the eight or twelve week course which is being offered but l want to suggest, Mr .

Chair man, that an eight or twelve week course, consisting of one evening a week is a real improve ment but it certainly is not an adequate training for probation officers or indeed even for the staff - I won't call them guards, but the staff in the correctional institutions . And Mr . Chair man, I would be remiss, both as a member of this House and also as a Director of the John Howard Society, if I did not express to the Minister my pers onal belief that the financing of the John-Howard Society is not adequate. And I'm not suggesting that I speak for the Board or the Director, this is my own

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-25a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 25a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d27a3795acd33a67dd78a0d9f5fb257d15a2bd2c

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