December

11, 1996

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLIII No. 51

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (L. Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin routine proceedings for today, the Chair

would like to welcome, on behalf of all members, thirty-one students from the

Newfoundland Cultural Heritage class, St. Clare's Junior High School, Carbonear

in the district of Carbonear - Harbour Grace. As well, we have fifty democracy

and Canadian Law students from E. J. Pratt High School in Brownsdale, from the

district of Trinity - Bay de Verde, along with their teachers, Mr. Jesse Bown

and Mrs. Maggie Doyle.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to speak about the Government Home Support

Program. The total budget for Home Support including seniors and people with

disabilities is approximately $30 million. Five hundred and seventy-five

(575) seniors in the Province will receive $13.5 million in home support services this

year from the Department of Health.

Today I would like to address the approximately 1,200 people

who have physical or developmental disabilities in this Province who will

receive approximately $16.5 million this year from the Department of Social

Services to purchase home support. The 1996-1997 budget for this program is

$16.5 million which is a significant increase from the 1995-1996 approved budget

of $10.2 million.

The Home Support Program has significantly expanded since its

inception in 1985. It will continue to evolve depending on the demand for

services and the fiscal ability of the Province to deliver these services. The

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is the only Province in this country which

offers 24-hour home support for clients. As a Province with serious fiscal

challenges, I think this speaks to this government's commitment to home support

for those who need these services.

The Home Support Program for people with physical/development

disabilities provides supports so they may continue to live at home or be

supported in their own homes and apartments. The Department of Social Services

has been working and will continue to work with families, advocacy groups, and

clients to identify possible options to operate within the approved Budget.

Currently, new applicants are approved on an emergency basis. Last year, we

admitted approximately 200 new cases, and this fiscal year, so far, we have been

able to approve seventy-five new cases.

On September 6, 1996, a $3,000 service limit was put in place

for all new admissions to the program. While the service limit is $3,000 per

month, some people continue to receive funding of $10,000 per month and more.

Most people require less than this amount. In any case, our budget this year for

the whole program is $16.5 million.

There are 110 people or less than 10 per cent of the total

caseload, who receive more than $3,000 per month. Each of these persons was

individually assessed and only reduced with the approval of the client, family,

or representative. Thirty-five individuals have agreed to reduce their funding

needs and seventy-five were not able to be reduced, and thus were left at their

previous level of support. Any reduction in funding for existing clients is

intended to allow more access to the program for new clients. All reductions for

those currently receiving more than $3,000 per month was done with both the

co-operation and the approval of clients and families.

Mr. Speaker, there is no new money. This year we were able to

increase our budget from $10.2 million to $16.5 million without decreasing basic

social assistance rates. The budget choices we made were very difficult but were

done through consultation with people from all over the Province. We are

continuing to work with clients, families, and advocacy groups to provide the

best possible service.

Recently, our front-line staff have been maligned for doing

haphazard assessments of clients. Mr. Speaker, I take strong exception to this.

Our staff are dedicated professionals who have worked very hard with clients,

families, and advocates, to ensure that all options have been explored and that

the best possible solutions were found for the individuals concerned. I know

this is not easy for clients, families, or staff. An assessment tool has been

developed with the input from staff and consumers and should make the process an

even better one. I am confident that our staff are working in the best interest

of the clients and will continue to do so. I have every confidence in our

front-line staff, and this government has every confidence in our front-line

staff.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for forwarding a copy just seconds

before the House opened. I want to say to the minister, yes, we agree that we

have an aging population. The Strategic Social Plan paper that you have prepared

for your government shows that, it is borne out by Stats Canada, it is

self-evident. We have known for a long time that this kind of situation would

develop in this Province; that is why in 1985, the government of the day

introduced the Home Care Program. I want to note, as well, the minister says

here that: Any reduction in funding for existing clients is intended to allow

more access to the program for new clients. I hope that is not the same kind of

commitment that was given when we said we were going to transfer funds saved in

Education Reform to the children of Newfoundland and Labrador. We hope that is

not a hollow promise but that it is a commitment.

Mr. Speaker, also, we have to keep in mind that in this

Province today we have nearly ninety individuals who are in hospitals, wanting

to go home, who are medically discharged but there are no funds and no place for

them to go. We also note that it was your government that in August or July of

this year, passed a memorandum in Cabinet, made a regulation that said: people

who are eligible for home support payments would not have an appeal process. You

just cancelled that completely, took away a fundamental right of many

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

We also point out, what is happening in reality is that when

we closed Exon House, when we closed all those other institutions, in reality,

the extra money coming into your department should be reflected in savings in

other departments, and it can be argued that we are not spending any new dollars

whatsoever.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. H. HODDER: With leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi

Vidi. Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Sure, he has leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I agree with the minister that the home support program is

desperately necessary and that the government is in fact saving money by

reducing health care costs and the cost of having people in long-term care

homes. But there are two serious problems that have been identified, Mr.

Speaker, with home support program. Number one, the people who work in the home

care support program are being discriminated against and abused by this

government and number two, the problems are not being identified by this member

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARRIS: - they are being identified by the people who

are being, in some cases, arbitrarily reduced. The minister has said that

everything is being done with the cooperation of families. But that is contrary

to what she tabled in the House three or four days ago when she said everybody

was cut by 10 per cent arbitrarily across the board, except those receiving less

than $500.

Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of problems with this home care

support program and they aren't being identified by maligning front-line

workers. They are being identified by (inaudible) -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible)!

MR. HARRIS: - and by the policy of this (inaudible) -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. HARRIS: - including a nineteen-page assessment -

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - with very questionable questions on it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the hon.

members of the House of Assembly of the Agricultural Awareness Campaign across

the Province. To launch this campaign, more than 100,000 full-colour place-mats

depicting agricultural products and featuring facts and trivia about agriculture

in Newfoundland and Labrador will be distributed to restaurants across the

Province. Newfoundland and Labrador's 700 farms generated $64 million in sales,

and furthermore, processed foods accounted for another $300 million in sales.

But we can, we believe, do more.

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are generally unaware of the

extent of products produced locally. The Premier and I recently attended a

luncheon - and I might add that I was offered up as an item on the menu; they

didn't like fat foods - with the Food Processor's Association of Newfoundland

and Labrador where they featured many of the numerous meat, fish and dairy

products, beverages, baked goods, salad dressings, vegetables such as broccoli

and cauliflower, preserves, and so on, that are produced in this Province. I

might add too that the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation was present.

How many of us know that Newfoundland and Labrador products

are now successfully marketed in all of Canada, the United States, Japan,

Denmark, Ireland, Russia, South Korea, Norway, the Caribbean, Hong Kong, and

many other regions throughout the world? And locally, did you know that farmers

in this Province produce all the milk and eggs we consume? However, most people

would not recognize that there are opportunities in these areas to increase

individual consumption to national levels according to Canada Food Guide

standards. These are but a few examples that show why it is important to

increase the awareness of agriculture and the food industry so that we can

foster new ideas to take advantage of these opportunities.

To do this, my department has secured $375,000 over a

three-year period through the Federal-Provincial Agriculture Safety Nets

Agreement to promote agriculture in the Province. We will target the education

community, producers and farmers, the processing industry, media, policy makers,

the general public and other professionals, such as health care workers,

scientists, agrologists, to increase the understanding and appreciation of the

agri-food sector from farm gate to the consumer plate.

Moreover, Mr. Speaker, we want Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians to invest in agriculture in this Province. This Awareness Campaign

is an important part of an overall strategy to foster growth in the agricultural

sector.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for providing me with a copy of this

ministerial statement before the House opened. I say to the minister that I hope

his 100,000 place-mats are more popular than his campaign buttons still found in

the trunk of his car. It is not place-mats that we want to see; it is food that

we want to see on the table. That is what we want to see.

When we see the same government acknowledging the $8 million

to $10 million, the $10 million to $13 million, done away with just a few short

years ago through the atlantic freight subsidy, when we see the hurt that has

had on farmers in this Province, that is not what the place-mats are going to

cure, I say to the minister.

What the minister should be delivering here in this House is

a marketing plan whereby the farmers' vegetables will be marketed in a proper

and professional way, whereby the farmers' produce will be able to get on our

supermarket shelves plus the supermarket shelves of Atlantic Canada.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, when you see our own milk

leaving this Province and going to other provinces only to come back as cottage

cheese or UHT, and then go on our supermarket shelves, that tells us we have a

problem here, especially when you see unemployment in this Province at about 40

per cent.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: And this minister expects us to jump with

joy when we hear that place-mats are going to be put in restaurants and put on

the tables.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: Stand up, I say to the minister, and

respond to the need.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Does the hon. Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today

are to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

On November 19, the minister, in a ministerial statement,

recognized that the current highway infrastructure in Labrador is inadequate,

and she outlined a ten-year plan to build a much needed highway from Happy

Valley - Goose Bay to Red Bay, and to upgrade the portion from Churchill Falls

to Happy Valley - Goose Bay. I ask the minister if she would tell this House

what her department estimates the total cost of that project will be?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated at the time that

I provided information on this particular project, we are in the process of

negotiating for a deal with the federal government to be able to implement the

Trans-Labrador Highway project. We are in the process of those negotiations at

the current time. They are ongoing and I am not able now, as I was then, to

provide specific details on the cost items associated with the negotiations.

They are in progress. I believe that to provide information on specific details

of the negotiations, particularly of a financial nature, could undermine or

jeopardize the success of these negotiations and consequently they are

proceeding. They are proceeding very favourably. I do expect them to conclude

within the time frames that I previously referred to which could be as early as

the end of the year.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister is telling us that she is up negotiating for

money to do a Trans-Labrador Highway and she does not know how much money she is

looking for? Is that what the minister is telling us? I am sure your

departmental engineers have provided an estimate. All I am asking for, could you

give a dollar estimate, in the ball park, of how much it costs to do the

highway? Is it $400 million, $600 million, $700 million? Not to have those

figures and to go to Ottawa negotiating for money when you don't know what the

project is going to cost. I mean that is her responsibility.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has

misinterpreted my comments. I certainly did not indicate that the department or

myself did not know what the absolute costs of all of the details of the

negotiations that we are now involved with. We know every aspect of the details

of the cost and we are involved in a complex set of negotiations associated with

this. What I am saying is that we are unable, at this time, to provide public

information on the specific financial details of the negotiations that we are

involved in because it could jeopardize, it could undermine the success of this

and I am not willing to put that success in jeopardy. This is too important to

the people of Labrador and to the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I certainly agree

it is very important to the people of Labrador. I don't consider it top secret

that the department cannot tell us how much it is going to cost to build a road

from point a to point b. There is something secret about that, I say to the

minister.

Now maybe the minister can answer this question: in order to

fund this service the federal government and Marine Atlantic are going to

relinquish the ferry service and pass it over to this Province to ensure that

happens in the interim until we see a road that is badly needed. Now at the

current rate that they are paying on this for cargo and passengers, could the

minister tell us now how much is needed now by Marine Atlantic to subsidize the

current ferry service that is there at the moment?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm not quite sure what the

thrust of the question is. At the time that I briefed the House and briefed the

people of Labrador on this whole project I provided information at that time on

the framework of the negotiations.

Yes, the negotiations do involve looking at the whole marine

services of Labrador and negotiating with the federal government the Province's

willingness to assume the marine services of Labrador for a cost. Now, the

actual cost of the Marine Atlantic service at this time is one aspect of this

whole series of negotiations, as well as the ultimate cost that the Province

would have to assume to maintain a service in the short term and to provide a

continuing service that Labrador will require through the course of the

development of the Trans-Labrador Highway, and once it is completed.

So I can simply say at this point that this is one factor

that is involved in these negotiations. Again, there is a range of costs that

would be associated with it from the provincial perspective. It is a factor we

will take into consideration as we come to some conclusions on an acceptable

financial compensation for assuming this responsibility as a province.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A simple question,

I say to the minister, that is what I asked. How much is it now costing to

subsidize the ferry service on the routes that are going to be replaced if we

strike an agreement? How much is it now being subsidized? A simple question. I

don't think that is something the public shouldn't be aware of. It is subsidized

out of taxpayers' dollars, and I think the minister should have that figure at

her fingertips. I will make it easier for the minister. Will you confirm it is

approximately $11 million?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, this is not a provincial

government subsidy. This is a subsidy that is being provided between the federal

government and Marine Atlantic. I think the appropriate place to put the

question is to Marine Atlantic and to the president of Marine Atlantic, or to

the federal government.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm appalled that

this minister in government is going to Ottawa to negotiate taking over a ferry

service and build a much needed highway. They don't know what the highway is

going to cost, they don't know what the -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible)!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: They aren't prepared to tell the public

what the high road is going to cost.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: That is a different question.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to

his question.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In light of the

fact that the minister doesn't want to tell the public what the highway will

cost, and in light of the fact that she doesn't want to tell the public how much

is being subsidized, will the minister confirm that they are having problems

with negotiating an appropriate amount with the federal government, and they are

only prepared to pay $350 million when the cost is substantially higher?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I reiterate two comments I made

earlier. One was that the minister and the department know very clearly and

accurately all of the potential costs associated with this set of negotiations.

Secondly, with respect to the actual negotiations, I indicated earlier they are

proceeding favourably. I expect they will be successfully concluded within the

time frame I stated here earlier, which should be by the end of the year.

MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, the hon. the Leader of

the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ask the minister,

is the Province prepared to provide the difference in what is needed and what

the federal government provides to ensure that this project proceeds?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to rise to say on

behalf of all the members of the government that we have the absolute greatest

confidence in the negotiating skills of the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation. She understands the first rule of a negotiation is that you

don't do it in public. The second rule of a negotiation is you don't lay down a

marker in public. The third rule is you get the best possible deal for the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

These are the same kind of questions we heard when we heard:

you are never going to get a smelter refinery complex. They are never going to

spend that kind of money in Newfoundland and Labrador. These were the same kind

of comments we heard when we heard people say: You can't go out and stop foreign

vessels on the high seas from overfishing.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I know that the forecast has

been: rain, drizzle and fog but it is time for this Leader of the Opposition to

see a bit of sunshine in Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the Premier, if you think fishing has stopped, you

read the activity reports that are going out there now and I will get to that

with you later, if you think it is decreased.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: I ask the minister or maybe the Premier, if

the Premier feels the minister does not want to give us the figures and he does

not want an answer - if there is a shortfall in negotiations, are they going to

prioritize what roads are needed to be done or, is the Province going to give a

commitment to ensure that the ten-year plan is completed?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition

wants me to read the Teleost Report, I had the entire captain and crew

including the scientific officers of the Teleost at my house for a

reception a few days ago. We had a great conversation, and if he wants to talk

about fisheries conservation, we would be glad to talk about it. But, if he

wants to talk openly about a negotiation on highways, the Trans-Labrador Highway

to be specific, we are not going to do it here because it is not in the best

interest of the Province, but I would recommend that the Leader of the

Opposition do what the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation has done,

and that is, to go to Labrador, to visit Labrador communities, to talk to

Labrador leaders, to consult Labradorians, to seek their advice.

They are satisfied, Mr. Speaker, that a serious negotiation

is underway right now which best protects the interest of Labradorians and the

Leader of the Opposition can be sure that we will accept no arrangement that is

not favourable to the Province as a whole and to Labradorians in particular, and

I say to the Leader of the Opposition, have some faith in this minister. This

minister has earned again and again and again, the confidence of the people of

the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, my question this afternoon

is for the hon. Premier on the topic of education reform savings.

Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, in response to my questions here in

this House, the Minister of Education said the government never made a firm

commitment to redirect the savings achieved in education reform back into the

classroom. So in view of the disbelief, Mr. Speaker, this is generating amongst

people in the Province, will the Premier please tell us where he stands.

Does he stand by his Minister of Education, who says a

commitment was never made or, does he stand, Mr. Speaker, by the package of

documents that he himself prepared, he signed and he brought with him and he

distributed to MPs and Senators in Ottawa last spring, that said: The proposed

reforms, Mr. Speaker, will provide the opportunity to redirect these savings to

the classroom level for the benefit of our students?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I am glad that

the hon. member in asking his question, quoted accurately and completely from

one sentence in a very comprehensive document that was presented, and I will

repeat it again because it bears repeating and it is accurate and is what we

have been saying for several years now since the reform agenda has been put

forward, Mr. Speaker, as a result of the Williams' Commission Royal Report in

Again, in part of that comprehensive brief that traced the

root and the history of the Newfoundland and Labrador Education System from 1949

to 1996, painting the whole picture of declining enrolments, the change in the

number of schools, the administration of the system, the budgetary provisions,

the busing provisions, all of that were in that package, Mr. Speaker, and one of

the points made was the one that he just read which did state clearly that the

proposed reforms will provide the opportunity to redirect these savings to the

classroom level for the benefit of our students and the government has said

repeatedly: We believe in that, that has always been the aim, goal and objective

of a government but it is unfortunate and sad, Mr. Speaker, that a government

cannot be honest with the people, stand up and say what their goals and

objectives are, and for political reasons have an opposition turn around and

say: That is a promise that you made to the people. You did not keep a promise,

you broke a promise, you did not keep your word, Mr. Speaker, everybody knows

and in the context of every discussion that has every been made, when a

government, any government makes a commitment on any issue, everybody always

knows and understands that it is dependent upon the monetary financial fiscal

position of the Province to deliver. That has been the case in education, Mr.

Speaker, last year, and the hon. member might be interested to have himself and

everybody else reminded. Last year in our Budget deliberations we announced here

in this House after the election in February, in the early spring, we indicated

that we had taken all this into consideration. Everybody knew exactly what we

had said about education reform. It was well known in the public sector.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: With respect to the whole issue when the

government listened to the people of the Province in another public -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to complete his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Do not raise taxes, do not reduce expenditure on health care,

and in those areas then the next priority was education. We will deal with it

again this year and find our in short order what the actual

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

The hon. the Member for St. John's East on a supplementary.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier who is

telling the truth? Is it the Minister of Education who says there was no

commitment to put savings from education reform back into the classroom to

improve education, or is it the Minister of Justice who told people at a public

forum, as recorded and rebroadcast by the media, that the savings from education

reform would indeed be redirected into the classrooms of this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the member

opposite the whole line of questioning is taking an important evolution in the

Province, an important change in the Province, which is education reform,

completion of the job to have the amendment constitutionalized through a vote of

the House of Commons, and then turning around at this juncture when we have to

move in a very short period of time to do a great deal of work to enable the

boards to get on with the job of reform, Mr. Speaker, and frankly I say to the

member, trying to find some way now to try and score some political points on

the issue.

Mr. Speaker, let me just introduce a measure of reality. The

reality is that Newfoundland and Labrador today has $9 billion worth of debt.

That is the Province we are living in, with less than 600,000 souls we have -

MR. SULLIVAN: Well, you knew that last year.

PREMIER TOBIN: I would like to answer the question.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: We have $9 billion worth of debt. We know

that. We have been dealing with the deficit. Now, Mr. Speaker, I ask you to give

me a moment. If you take the budgets of the Department of Health - I ask,

please, one moment to be heard.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: If you take the budgets of the Department

of Health, the Department of Education, the Department of Social Services, and

the Department of Justice, alone, in excess of 80 per cent of the entire budget

is now used up. That is a fact. I ask the member if he wants the government to

spend more on education, and that is what he is saying, where should we spend

less? We cannot spend money we don't have, so I ask, what does he want us to

cut, Justice, Health, cancel the Mount Cashel settlement, cancel the pay equity

arrangement? What does the member want?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. John's East on a supplementary.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: After all that what remains is the

truth, and the truth is that there was indeed a commitment to redirect education

reform savings back to the children of this Province, and I ask the Premier if

he remembers saying in this House as recently as May 23 of this year that: We

need our dollars to go to work in the classrooms of Newfoundland and Labrador,

and not in the administrative rooms of Newfoundland and Labrador. Why is he now

breaking his commitment, Mr. Speaker, to put these very savings back into the

classrooms for these children? Why is the Premier breaking his word to the

children of this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: The member is clearly not interested in my

judgement in the proper administration of the Province, including the pursuit of

the completion of the mission of education reform. The fact of the matter is

that the member wants us to prejudge a budget process which will come forward

later on in the new year before we talk about what goes in the classrooms versus

what goes to administration.

What has happened with education reform? We are moving from

twenty-seven school boards down to ten school boards. There is a substantial

amount of money that is now going for administration that is going to be a

saving.

Mr. Speaker, in due course we are going to have fewer schools

in the long term in the Province, both because we have declining enrolments

today and because we are going to rationalize some of the operations in the

Province today.

Now, is the Conservative Party saying - and I think they

should say clearly - that even with declining enrolments, even with the lowest

student/teacher ratio in the country today, even with school boards being

reduced by almost two-thirds, that all of that savings, 100 per cent of it,

should be redirected to the education budget, notwithstanding the fiscal

position of the Province.

Further, Mr. Speaker, to pick up on what the member said

yesterday, is the member saying, on behalf of his party, that in the absence of

that the Conservative Party will now work against the reform package? Is that

what he is saying?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are

to the Minister of Social Services.

On June 17, 1996, the home support workers on the Southern

Avalon Peninsula went on strike. That strike is now in its sixth month. The main

issue in this strike centres around the value of the care of senior citizens,

and the value of the women's work in the workplace. The strike is about equal

pay for work of equal value. I ask the minister: Are you and your government

committed to that principle for the working women of Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Early in the summer, when this strike occurred, I met with

the home support workers on a number of occasions and told them very honestly

the situation we were in. Our budget had increased from $10.2 million to $16.5

million. If we were to allocate any new monies to provide increase in the

regulations which would allow more money to be paid for salaries and other

benefits, it would have to very clearly come from child welfare provisions or

from the basic social assistance allowance. I have no new money. The money I

have has been allocated, and we are working to redirect the savings that we have

in home support to allow more people to enter into the home support program.

The choice is clear. Do we want to cut the money from the

people to whom we are providing the service, or do we take that money and put it

towards the people who are providing the service? That is the choice we had to

make. We are not proposing to change the regulations at this time.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, a

supplementary.

MR. H. HODDER: Madam Minister, these workers deliver your

mandate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: And your mandate is to the seniors and to

the disabled people of Newfoundland and Labrador. These workers receive, on

average, $5.57 per hour. That is a shameful comment, that these people have to

be on strike for six months in order that they can improve their living

conditions.

I say to the minister: These people have no bereavement

leave, no family leave; they do not have the benefit of lay-off notices, no

workers' compensation, no overtime pay.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I ask Madam Minister: Why won't you, as minister, accept your

responsibilities and become more proactive in trying to find a sensible,

reasonable, compassionate, and rational solution to this long-term labour

dispute?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to answer the question by asking my hon.

colleague: Are you proposing that I reduce the money available for services for

the family, a rehabilitative service component for the physically and mentally

disabled in the Province? That is the choice I have to make. If I take the money

and put it into salaries, I take it from the services that the clients are

receiving.

My hon. colleague earlier said that we are reviewing the

workers' compensation legislation. I have a choice. If I put more money into

salaries, I take it from child welfare or basic income support. I ask you for

you suggestion as to where it should come from.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, a

supplementary.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the minister is very good at

side-stepping. It is not my responsibility; it is Madam Minister's

responsibility.

I want to ask a question which is still on home care. When

the minister was giving her ministerial statement, she mentioned the fact that

she had every confidence in her front-line staff. She complained about what she

deemed to be maligning of staff for their haphazard assessments of clients. I

say to the minister, it was your department that told the people connected with

home care -gave them a long list of directives and said here is where we can

cut. Then you said: Would you please be creative in finding new ways, in

addition to these, to cut home care?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary.

MR. H. HODDER: I ask: Has the minister now withdrawn that

directive to social workers in Newfoundland and Labrador so that her front-line

workers can be more compassionate, more caring and not have to think that they

are being viewed by the senior people in her department as being inefficient if

they do not come up with new solutions and more creativity to further hurt the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador who need her help?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

AN HON. MEMBER: The minister should resign immediately.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If the hon. member also read this Ministerial Statement, he

would have known that of the 110 people that had been assessed, thirty-five were

reduced and seventy-five were maintained at the current level, because on an

individual case-by-case basis we sat down with family members, our front-line

workers, and came to that agreement. There was no arbitrary reduction, and I

take great offence to hear that our front-line staff are making assessments by

walking past a window and saying, reduce the service. I think it is a derogatory

comment and quite frankly, I have a lot more confidence in our front-line staff

than some of the people on the other side of the House who callously make

remarks about their abilities!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Education. It deals with

the ongoing negotiations between the Federal Government and the Province with

respect to the possible takeover of provincial training programs, provincial

employer programs and sponsorship for non-degree granting courses up to three

years. Can the minister update the House today on where those negotiations are?

What is the status of them? Does the Province intend to take over that

responsibility? If it does, when will it happen? Could he answer those questions

please?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Just very briefly, Mr. Speaker, we have been

having the discussions conducted with our department and the Department of

Development and Rural Renewal. My colleague, the Minister of Development and

Rural Renewal has been taking the lead role because it is a much broader thing

than just some of the education issues.

With it, Mr. Speaker, if he wants further information, he

could ask a supplementary and my colleague would provide additional information;

but we are taking the general approach in the discussions that the preferred

position for the Province - rather than say the Alberta model which was

concluded a little while ago, where that province took over complete control,

complete delivery, and secured the funding from Ottawa - is that we are more

interested in an approach where Ottawa will provide the funding, deliver the

services under the three different benefit packages that are described but that

the Newfoundland and Labrador Government, on behalf of the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador, would have a much more direct say in terms of

defining the criteria and the basis and parameters of the different programs. So

that is the thrust of our negotiation. It is proceeding and my colleague can

give you more details as to expected time lines for conclusion.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I will ask another question, a

supplementary to the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal.

The minister has, in a general way, answered some specific

questions, but specifically: Is there a plan in place now where the Province -

say, by April 1 of this year - will take over responsibility for training? Who

will actually decide - provide the assessments on the one hand and decide who

will be sponsored or not? If so, how much money has been negotiated from Ottawa

to the Province to see that that happens? How long will that commitment be made

from the Federal Government to the Province with respect to the employment and

training programs for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development and

Rural Renewal.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, the discussions are ongoing with

the Federal Government, with my counterpart, the hon. Pierre Pettigrew. My

department has been taking the lead on the employment benefits tools and there

are four of those, of course; wage subsidies, wage supplements, self-employment

assistance and job creation partnerships with the private sector. The skills,

loans and training component of the employment benefits tools certainly is one

on which we are working very closely with the Department of Education. At this

point in time, we are further ahead in our negotiations on the other four of the

five employment benefit tools. So we will, hopefully have reached a conclusion

in terms of our negotiations with the Federal Government by the end of this

month on those four components.

On the skills, loans and training, we are having a little

more difficulty because, as you indicated, there is a totally different approach

in terms of the delivery. The focus will be on the individual instead of on the

institution in terms of the money flowing. So it will be a voucher-type system.

Clearly, our concern here is to make sure that the Federal

Government stays involved in this process and that we do not go the route

Alberta has gone, and that is complete devolution. We want to make sure that in

our negotiations we get the three-year commitment, but rolling commitment as

well so that we will continue on with it. But we are trying to work a deal that

is going to be in the best interests of every Newfoundlander and Labradorian. On

skills, loans and training component of the employment tools, that is going to

take us a little bit longer. But yes, we are looking at April 1, and clearly it

will be a different approach, but one that we will have the final say in the

design and the delivery.

MR. SPEAKER: Time for a quick supplementary.

The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to

whichever minister is responsible, because it seems that both departments have

different responsibilities with respect to these negotiations.

The Federal Government has stated categorically that they

want out of training programs. Basically the initiative is coming forth to save

a tremendous amount of money. Is it not a fact that the reason negotiations have

stalled is because the Federal Government are not willing to put the necessary

dollars into the Province for the Province to take it over, and that the

Province, in fact, has some very serious problems with that? Is that true? If it

is, could you elaborate on it, please?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development and

Rural Renewal.

MS FOOTE: No, that is not true, Mr. Speaker. In fact,

they have come to the table and had complete discussions and an agreement with

us to continue to deliver and continue to put the money into the program. What

we are saying is that we want to be part of the design. In fact, they have

agreed to allow us to design and to allow us to deliver where we want to

deliver, but they are going to stay involved in this process. And no, there is

no indication that there will be less money coming into the Province for

training.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has elapsed.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my pleasure today to rise and present a petition signed

by approximately 12,000 people. Mr. Speaker, I will just read the prayer of the

petition. It is addressed to the Honourable House of Assembly, the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador in Parliament assembled. The undersigned residents of

the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador ask for the House of Assembly to

accept the following petition:

We, the undersigned residents of the Province of Newfoundland

and Labrador, do hereby petition the House of Assembly to direct the Department

of Education to legislate a paid, adult bus monitor program for all school buses

in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

We find that the students are presently being unsupervised

and are at risk in their safety going to and from school on school buses. The

safety of our children is being compromised. We ask the hon. minister and his

government to show compassion, leadership and understanding to insure the safe

transportation of our children.

Mr. Speaker, almost 90,000 children go to school every single

day by school bus in over 1,000 buses in this Province and in the sole

responsibility of a single driver. A driver, who may have seventy-two primary

school kids in his care or her care, may have a combination of elementary and

high school, in some instances, young kids six years of age and younger on buses

with people nineteen years of age and in some instances older, and a single

driver who is entrusted with responsibility, even more responsibility than

classroom teachers who may have only fifteen, twenty or twenty-five within their

care.

The Premier said today, we have the best pupil/teacher ratio

in the country, we have three times, actually four times as many as that

pupil/teacher ratio entrusted in the care of a single bus driver. Statistics

will bear it out, that in the ten-year period from 1985 to 1995, there were 591

bus accidents in this Province, I mean, that is an average of almost sixty per

year. That is very significant, and there were 155 bus-related injuries during

that same period. Just this past year, we saw another fatality on top of the

five fatalities we had in the Province in the previous ten years. I mean, it is

a very serious business, bus transportation.

I taught at the high school level for twenty years, I am

fairly familiar with transportation of students, and many primary, elementary

and high school students all travel on that same bus; and is a major task, just

the control of those students, the care for driving that bus in the winter time

poses severe problems in instances. I think it is important that the proper care

and attention should be provided and when field trips and other school functions

are organized, we take great care to see that there is a sufficient number of

teachers or supervisory people per student. Some people expect, on certain

trips, a ratio of ten to one or fifteen to one, even twenty to one depending on

the nature of the activity, depending on the location of the activity, depending

on the age of the people involved.

I think it is incumbent really, upon this government who have

indicated under Education Reform that they are going to save several millions.

The minister and the former minister have indicated on many occasions that

several million is going to be saved in bus transportation in this Province, and

I think bus transportation is a mechanism, not only to transport people from

their homes under the care of an individual to the schools, but we have a

responsibility to ensure, Mr. Speaker, that these people are transported in a

safe manner. But it is too late when we have other fatalities happen and it is

devastating for the family and for that school. The peer groups of those

children can have a dramatic effect on their lives and I think it is important

that our Province take the necessary steps to insure that these young kids, and

particularly young kids, can have the proper supervision, not huddled on a bus,

seventy-two of these young kids, three in a seat, on the edge of some seats, not

even safely seated because there is no requirement I understand for seat belts

and appropriate structures and it is a high-risk situation, Mr. Speaker.

When we are talking about, over the next period of time,

closing some other schools in the Province - the number has been listed at

probably 100 - even if it is five more schools, it means people are going to be

transported longer distances over road conditions that are not the most

acceptable in the Newfoundland climate. I am sure, certainly in Labrador, people

are transported to school even before daylight in certain instances.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SULLIVAN: We call upon this government to take bus

safety seriously here, to move forward, and to respect the wishes of the 12,000

people who have submitted their names on a petition to that effect.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to stand in support of this petition this

afternoon, which is being presented by my colleague on behalf of some 12,000

residents of this Province; 12,000 residents who feel quite strongly about an

issue which is important, concerning the transportation of students.

Mr. Speaker, a school bus safety proposal has been presented,

perhaps one of many, I would suggest to the hon. the Speaker, dealing with many

issues respecting student transportation in our Province: for example, the

proper and adequate supervision of students on buses involving, as well as

boarding: the leaving of buses, driver selection and training, proper school bus

maintenance and vehicle communication, safety education programs for students

and parents, teachers and drivers, a bus safety awareness education program for

the public, and scheduled bus routes. These are the important features of school

bus safety and transportation issues and, as I have indicated, they are part of

a proposal which has been presented, in particular, by Holy Family School in

Paradise.

Sadly it was this school, of course, which we all recall,

where there was a tragedy a number of months ago. Obviously, this tragedy has

resulted in affirmative action being taken by the parents and by the

administration of this school in gathering the support of some 12,000 parents

and students across this Province in dealing with the fundamentally important

issues of school busing and transportation in this Province.

There are numerous recommendations found in this proposal. I

would only hope that the minister will take the time to review them carefully,

to take them into consideration, and to give serious thought as to how the issue

of school busing and transportation services being provided in the Province can

be improved to ensure that students at all times are being protected and that

their well-being is being secured.

Mr. Speaker, I have no difficulty whatsoever in standing in

support of this petition as being presented by my colleague on this very

important issue.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do not believe a lot of commentary is required again. I

just want to add a little additional information because this issue has been

raised several times by way of petition. Again, I think, for those in years in

the future and so on, and maybe even in a shorter period of time, the next few

weeks and so on, we might be interested enough to look in Hansard and see what

people actually said about this in the debate. As long as we know for the

record, clearly, that the Opposition is now stating 100 per cent total,

unequivocal support for the fact that there have to be adult, paid monitors,

paid for by the government, and that is the position, and that if they were the

government of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador they would do that

regardless of anything else to do with bus safety, school issues, health issues,

social services issues, or anything else; that is the kind of thing they would

definitely commit to.

The reality, Mr. Speaker, is that we have had a comprehensive

study of school bus safety issues, the whole range of issues, done just recently

in Labrador, and we responded to that group. We committed, myself and my

colleague, the hon. the Member for Topsail and the hon. Member for Conception

Bay East and Bell Island, I think is the name of the riding now. We consulted

with the parents from Holy Family school, in particular. Myself and my

colleague, the hon. the Member for Topsail, dealt with the issue at a public

meeting in Topsail, I believe. The issue was dealt with, and the parents were

very serious about it. There is a range. There are ten or eleven different

issues which they have raised and asked us to get back to them. We have

committed to respond to them. As to a review of the regulations that I pointed

out before that were put in place in the late 70s, were reviewed on at least ten

occasions in the ten years from 1979 to 1989 when members opposite, or people of

their particular party, formed the government, were seen to be adequate, and not

only adequate, Mr. Speaker, but the best in Canada at this point in time. We

have committed to a further review. The least of all the concerns would be

whether or not adult monitors had to be paid from the public purse.

One of the things that maybe has passed by the members

opposite with respect to the new legislation we are debating in school reform

and education reform, is a piece of the legislation, Mr. Speaker, that gives

school boards the ability to collect a fee for busing services if they chose. It

was an issue that we discussed frankly and openly with the parent group. If the

parents in any school believe that their number one priority is to have paid

adult monitors on a bus, and they want that above and beyond everything else in

the system, then now, legislatively and every other way, they can provide for

that themselves, even if the government does not come forward with additional

funding for busing and for the paid adult monitors.

The reality, again, Mr. Speaker, is, if we were to say that

we are going to put aside the hundreds of thousands of dollars that it would

take to pay adult monitors on the buses in Newfoundland and Labrador - actually,

that is an underestimate, it is the millions of dollars - then we would go back

and discuss that honestly with the people at a meeting. We would have to go back

and say: We are doing this because you asked but now we are cutting out this

program, we are cutting out that program, and we are cutting out some other

program. They said they hoped that would not be the case but that is the reality

of the world we live in.

We are dealing seriously with the issues of school bus

safety, school bus monitors, and all the issues with respect to safe

transportation for students. I firmly believe at the end of the day that the

parents will be satisfied with the position of the government when it is

explained to them in the context of the Newfoundland and Labrador scene, and the

national scene.

I believe, Mr. Speaker, that if it is a priority, as these

people who sign these petitions say it is, they will be more than willing to

come forward and pay $5.00 or $10.00 a month themselves to pay for adult

monitors on buses. If they really believe the spirit of their conviction that

led them to sign the petition, they will pay for the monitors and be glad to do

so, at very minimal cost to them, but in the aggregate and total, at a very

large, hugh, unmanageable cost for government.

I understand them bringing forth the petition, but I think

the broader issue, when it is discussed, debated and explained, we will see

better improved attention paid to school bus safety for children, but it

probably will not include paid adult monitors from government funds.

MR. E. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, on a point

of order.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I stand on a point of order

dealing with a matter related to Question Period. It is pretty clear that in

Question Period that questions are put - in Beauchesne it says that answers to

questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should

not provoke debate. Over the last number of Question Periods it seems to me,

while sitting in the House as a member, that the Minister of Education takes a

great deal of time to deal with matters other than what has been raised. He goes

on and on and does not deal necessarily with the question at hand. The Premier,

on many occasions, has done the same, and also the Minister of Health.

My point of order, Mr, Speaker, is that I would like to point

out to all members that Question Period is exactly that, Question Period, and

clearly in Beauchesne, Page 123,

Section 417, "Answers to questions should be as

brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate".

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair is ready to rule on that point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. member wants to make a brief

comment, quickly. It is now three o'clock and we are to move on.

MR. TULK: I would very quickly like to say to the hon.

member that he is absolutely right, answers to questions should be very brief,

as should questions. The Speaker is the person who rules on that and I am sure

he is going to tell us now that he will see that those rules are carried out.

When the Speaker tells somebody to take their place, they do it. It is the

ruling that basically guides the Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of order. Really, it is not a point of order,

but I want to say that questions and answers should be brief. The Chair has

recognized that on a number of occasions members have been a bit longer in their

answers and longer in their questions. I have brought that to the member's

attention and have asked the member speaking to take his place.

I also want to refer hon. members to

Section 31 of our own

Standing Orders 31(6) which says: "The Speaker's rulings related to oral

questions are not debatable or subject to appeal."

Orders of the Day

Private Members' Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is a pleasure for me today to rise in this House and to

bring forward a motion on behalf of a group I've had the privilege to work

closely with for the last couple of years. First of all, if I could just run

through the motion.

"Whereas ground search and rescue organizations have been in

existence in this Province since 1972;

"And

whereas at the present time ground search and rescue

units exist throughout most of the Province, both on the Island and in Labrador;

"And

whereas these ground search and rescue organizations

provide a very important service to the people of this Province;

"And

whereas at the present time these ground search and

rescue organizations are dependent primarily on local fund raising to finance

their operations;

"Therefore

be it resolved that this hon. House, on behalf of

the people of this Province, express its appreciation and support for the work

of these ground search and rescue organizations;

"And be it further resolved that the Government of

Newfoundland and Labrador officially recognize the efforts of these

organizations and actively explore ways of assisting them in carrying out their

very important work on behalf of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador."

Mr. Speaker, I was first elected to this House in 1993, and

shortly thereafter I was contacted by the unit that operates in my area of the

Province, and had occasion at that time to meet with the coordinator for that

group and discuss with him his experiences over ten years in working with that

group, primarily a number of issues of concern, problems that he and his group

had experienced over the years in trying to deliver this service to the people

of the Stephenville - Bay St. George area.

I'm sure everyone in this House has had occasion to be

somewhat familiar with these particular groups, whether it is through seeing

them on t.v., when from time to time we get spots on t.v. where there is an

emergency somewhere in the Province; or whether it is on the site, in

participating in searches; or, as often as not, it will be in malls and shopping

centres where these people are out pushing their tickets, selling tickets,

raising money to purchase equipment, fund training, and generally to raise the

finances necessary to keep their operation functioning.

Perhaps for the members of this hon. House it would be of

benefit and some interest to know a little about the history and the present

status of this group within the Province. It had its beginning in 1972 when it

was recognized by the police and Emergency Measures organization that there was

a need for this type of service here in the Province. Operations dealing with

the Emergency Measures organization and the police were finding that at times of

disaster they were having to go out and recruit local people to come out and

assist them in carrying out some of these functions. Also, when people were lost

generally they were going out recruiting people in the community to engage in

assisting them.

Of course, what they realized was that this bringing people

out into the bush to engage in a search was not always the best way to proceed.

People who are best at that sort of thing are people who are trained in doing

it. Because to go into an area, if you aren't a trained individual, it is

possible that there could be clues that you could miss. Really you could,

instead of assisting the operation, be serving as a deterrent in that as a

result of people coming behind you would miss things that would have been there

initially.

The first organization began in St. John's, as is very often

the case with many of these things. The initial training involved a number of

existing agencies. The minister will be pleased to know the Department of

Forestry was involved from the beginning in 1972, the Department of National

Defence, the Sixth St. John's Rovers, and others. Subsequent to the formation of

the group in St. John's, as interest grew these organizations spread throughout

the Province.

At the present time, Mr. Speaker, there are a total of

twenty-four such ground search and rescue organizations, and number twenty-five

is in the process of being organized at the present time, on the Northern

Peninsula.

It would also, perhaps, be of interest to the House to know

where these particular organizations presently exist. I guess if anybody is not

aware, I will go through the list so this way you will know if in fact a unit

does exist in your own particular district. I am sure with the commitment that

each of us brings to our own districts, our own ridings and our own communities,

I am sure that we will do whatever we can to assist these people in their very

important work.

Deer Lake has a search and rescue team, Grand Falls -

Windsor, Glovertown, Happy Valley - Goose Bay, Holyrood, Rocky Harbour,

Springdale, Barachois Brook, Stephenville, Nain, Hopedale, Bay Roberts, Buchans,

Burgeo, Marystown, Clarenville, Corner Brook, Wesleyville, St. John's, Pouch

Cove, Churchill Falls, Labrador City, Roddickton and Bonavista. As I said, Mr.

Speaker, number 25 is presently being organized on the Northern Peninsula.

All of these groups, in the areas that they exist, the way

that they function is that they liaison with the police force in that area. In

areas that are policed by the RNC, it is the RNC that takes the lead. In areas

that are policed by the RCMP, it is the RCMP that takes the lead. These groups

are subject to the call of the existing police forces. When the detachment

considers that there is a function to be played by the search and rescue then

they place a call and these people then respond, come out and provide whatever

assistance they can.

Mr. Speaker, I am sure we are all aware, as I stated

initially, that we are talking here about volunteers, but we should also keep in

mind that these are a well trained group of volunteers. These are not just

people who are being pulled in off the street and saying: Okay, will you come

out and give us a hand on Saturday? These people are recruited, they are trained

and given the benefit of proper training before they are placed in situations

where - and some of these situations, Mr. Speaker, hon. members would be

interested in knowing, are at considerable risk to the people who themselves are

engaged in them. Right now, as I will indicate later, really the term, `ground,

search and rescue' does not adequately describe the work of these individuals

because now their mandate and the responsibilities that they carry out are much

broader. Now they are involved in searches on the water, near shore. I mean they

are using Zodiacs and they are taking these out on times when it is certainly -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible). They call them search and rescue

coastguards. They do the same work.

MR. SMITH: Yes, they do a lot of the same work.

Certainly they have moved beyond that. They are, as I

indicated, Mr. Speaker, indeed extremely well trained individuals. Also we

should keep in mind, as I stated, that first and foremost they are volunteers.

They are people who give of their time, they give of their evenings, they give

of their weekends to go out and to offer services on behalf of their fellow

citizens. There is no remuneration and generally there is very little

recognition. Other than within their own ranks, they are very seldom recognized

for the duties that they perform on behalf of their fellow citizens of this

Province. They take training and as I said, they have to make themselves

available on a regular basis to serve their fellow citizens.

As I indicated as well, the term, `ground, search and rescue'

does not adequately describe what these groups now perform and the

responsibilities that they carry out. This hon. House would perhaps be

interested in knowing that just recently, with the shooting here in the city of

St. John's, the local search and rescue were called upon to come out and assist

the police force in trying to locate the weapon that had been used. I have also

been made aware that the St. John's group, at this present time, are in the

process of setting up a dive team that can assist at times where - of course in

these instances here it would be primarily used again in assisting the police to

recover bodies or again to be able, I guess, to operate more safely in very,

very hazardous situations. They have been used around airports; they have been

used in mine rescues, so certainly the type and variety of duties that they

perform are indeed very varied.

With an organization that offers such an important service,

it would be of interest for us to look at the structure, first of all, and then

to look at the funding. Well, the structure is fairly loose. As I said, it

initially began in 1972, which means now that we are approaching twenty-five

years that they have been active in this Province; certainly a significant

accomplishment for any organization. I guess it is difficult to understand why

after twenty-five years perhaps they would not be better known and certainly

would not have more recognition throughout the Province.

At the present time, there is some contact with the

Department of Justice. There is also some contact with EMO. The contact with the

Department of Justice is to the extent that the search and rescue organization -

each organization is required, on an annual basis, to submit to the department

an annual report which contains information with regard to their activities over

the year, the number of searches that they are engaged in, the nature of the

searches, the outcome, and also to provide information with regard to the

training that they have undertaken during that twelve-month period.

Their involvement with EMO is primarily from the point of

view that at the present time EMO has responsibility for looking after the

insurance, the general insurance, liability insurance, which covers the members

of these organizations who, as I indicated earlier, very often are putting

themselves at risk. So it is very important on both ends of it: first of all in

terms of their own safety, but also that if they are involved in activities of

this nature that no one can come back to them after and say that they did not

act properly in a certain instance and, as such, would be liable. So the

insurance is important to them and EMO is involved with them to the extent that

they pick up the tab; they look after the cost of the insurance.

As I indicated, in each particular region where a unit

operates, it works closely with the existing police force, and it is up to the

police force, whether the RNC or RCMP, to call them out. They make the

determination when these people are needed, and they call them out.

Right now, if the unit is called out in a particular area -

for example, I take my own area of the Province, the Stephenville area - if they

are called out, at the end of the search they then submit to the RCMP a list of

their expenses that they incurred during the course of the search. Now, they

will be reimbursed for these expenses, but unfortunately, very often there is a

lag, there is a delay, from the time that the claims are submitted until the

actual monies are received. Of course, also, we have to keep in mind that it is

the unit itself that is responsible for having this money up-front. Before they

can engage in a search, they must have these people trained, which costs money.

Before they can engage in these searches, they have to have the equipment which

these people need to go out and engage in these searches. That has to be paid

for up-front.

So, while there is a commitment in some areas, as we will see

hopefully during the course of the afternoon - when I conclude my presentation

now and later on in the afternoon when I conclude debate on this matter,

hopefully we will have a little better understanding as to what the present

needs of these organizations are as they go about doing the work that they do on

behalf of the people of this Province.

Occasionally, over the years, these organizations have been

able to access funding through provincial, or primarily through federal,

sources, and they have used this to purchase equipment. I mentioned earlier,

they are now getting into operating in the near shore. Some of the units have

purchased these Zodiacs and outboard motors that they need in order to engage in

that sort of thing. Ski-doos is another item that they need in order to be able

to engage in the winter activities.

The National Search and Rescue Secretariat has been very

supportive, and is a co-ordinating body at the national level. They have been

very supportive of the kinds of activities that these organizations have been

engaged in here in our Province; however, in the main, the people who are

members of these associations, whether they are in Stephenville, whether they

are in Glovertown, or whether they are in Nain, it is the general support of the

community that they rely upon, and it is generally through fund-raising that

they have to go through in order to do this.

I would like to relate an incident which happened within the

last few months. The unit that operates in my own area, in Stephenville, had

gone out and canvassed the community. They needed a four-wheel drive. Through

the community they managed to pick up this old vehicle that had been turned over

to them by someone. Then they solicited throughout the area, through the

garages, local mechanics, whoever would assist them, people who were involved in

the sale of automotive parts. They were given parts for the machine, they had

labour provided free of charge. Basically what they did was reconstruct this

four-wheel drive and had it to the point where it was ready to be licensed.

They took it to the Motor Registration Division to get it

licensed. Basically what they wanted to do was to see if somehow they could get

a break on the cost of the registration. The estimate they had, with the type of

vehicle and everything else, was somewhere around $180. At that point in time,

my office got involved, and primarily my assistant worked closely with this,

working with Mr. Blackmore who is the provincial president, and met with the

officials at the Motor Registration Division to try to determine if, in fact,

somehow these units could get access to the E plates, which are basically there

for emergency vehicles.

Well, I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, it certainly wasn't a

given. We didn't have the Motor Registration Division saying: Yes, no problem,

we will do that for you, that makes sense. For each vehicle that was there you

had to be able to provide that - as if somebody dragging around one of these big

trailers was going to have some use for it other than to be transporting

equipment to be used in searches. It took a while but we were able in that one

particular case to get approval, to get an E plate, which was a very small cost

to the unit. I have been informed within the last couple of days that the

provincial association has now followed up on that matter. It is now at the

point where the Motor Registration Division has agreed that for vehicles being

used - and I thank the minister - the vehicles being used now by search and

rescue -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SMITH: - are indeed eligible for the E plates.

By leave, Mr. Speaker, just a couple of minutes to finish up?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SMITH: As long as I don't sit to the left I'm

alright, is it?

Mr. Speaker, also, my first contact with these groups, it was

kind of interesting to be informed - for example, simple things, like maps. Maps

are a crucial part that these people need to use in their operations. When we

look around and we see the number of maps that are distributed by various

government departments over the years throughout, for the schools and elsewhere

in the Province, the search and rescue units were required, and still are, as

far as I know, to purchase the maps at a cost of approximately $8 each. We

aren't even providing the maps to them. One of the first things my office did

after I came in here was to, at least for my own unit, go down and pick up some

of the maps. They gave me a list of what they needed and I provided them with

that.

If you have seen these men and women in operation you will

know that they will wear a distinctive type uniform. It is just a coverall. It

is something that is very functional. They have to purchase that themselves.

There is no provision for providing that for them. So you go out, and someone

recruits you to come along and get involved in this organization, providing a

service on behalf of the community. You do that, you give up your evenings and

your weekend to take the training, and then the next thing someone comes to you

and says: By the way, I need $50 from you to get these coveralls that you are

going to need to wear whenever you are going out and participating in these

activities. Again, Mr. Speaker, a small point, but I think it does say something

in terms of these people who are performing and providing that service. It says

something to them in terms of the recognition and support they are being

provided.

As I indicated, it started in 1972. I am pleased to indicate

that in 1994 there was a provincial body formed. This provincial body is now

referred to as the Newfoundland and Labrador Search and Rescue Association.

There is no longer a reference to the ground search and rescue, for the reasons

that I outlined earlier. It is the Newfoundland and Labrador Search and Rescue

Association. This was accomplished through a grant from the National Search and

Rescue Secretariat in the amount of $25,000. This formation took place over

March 25 to March 27 in 1994, here at a meeting in St. John's.

At that meeting they brought in officials, emergency measures

organizations from New Brunswick, Nova Scotia. They also had a presentation with

regards to the Search and Rescue Operations in British Columbia. So it gave them

a kind of a perspective as to what was happening in other jurisdictions in the

country, and I guess the hope was that they could probably learn from what was

happening in the other areas.

Also, Mr. Speaker, I think it is worthy to note that I had

been informed that for all of the volunteers who are engaged in the twenty-four,

soon to be twenty-five individual associations throughout the Province, there

are no difficulties at all with the people who are involved getting excused by

their employers in order to participate in these activities. I think that speaks

volumes of the importance that the people of the Province see to the type of

work that these individuals are doing. The employers have no difficulty and if

they need time off or if they have to be called out, and sometimes it might not

be the most opportune time, but they recognize that the work that they are doing

is so important that they excuse them from their employment for that period of

time.

So, Mr. Speaker, with that, I will stop for now. I look

forward to hearing from the other hon. members in the House and to having an

opportunity to conclude debate later on this afternoon.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay

South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am just going to take a couple of minutes this afternoon to

speak on this particular bill and just say that we, on this side of the House,

certainly have no problem supporting this particular bill. As my colleague

across the floor said, there is certainly one of these organizations in my

district in Holyrood.

I guess, Mr. Speaker, to be critical, it is that we do little

or nothing for these people. Most of the money that I have seen raised for the

group in my district, they have raised themselves. They have gone out, they have

done the work, they have held the dances and sold the tickets. Whatever their

way of raising money was, Mr. Speaker, they went and they did it.

I have no problem whatsoever supporting volunteers,

supporting the work that this particular organization does, Mr. Speaker, because

you never know, any time, night or day, these people are called to come out, I

guess almost like a volunteer fire department, to do their functions. As I said,

Mr. Speaker, what bothers me is that we do nothing or next to nothing for these

individuals who give freely of their time, their energy and their efforts, men

and women who do work that helps the people of this Province.

I think it is a shame, Mr. Speaker, that we don't do more. My

colleague across the way certainly has spoken very eloquently in support of

these people, and I certainly cannot disagree with anything that he has said,

except to say again, that I am disappointed that, you know, we are not doing

things for these people.

I remember under EMO - and I am not sure, Mr. Speaker, if

that organization today is still in effect - when I was associated some years

ago with the Town of Conception Bay South, there was federal funding at the time

which was available. Of course, you had to apply for this particular funding and

at the time I believe we were trying to tap this source of funding for some

pumps, maybe even an emergency vehicle, some hoses and lights, these types of

things that could be used in actual search and rescue and in actual fact, could

have been used by our local fire department.

Of course, it was a great thing, Mr. Speaker. As I said, I

don't know if these funds are available any more today. Maybe my colleague, who

certainly knows more about this than I do, might know if these funds are

available or if they are not. I know at one time, as I said, there was federal

money available and at one time there used to be somebody I do believe, Mr.

Speaker - and again I stand to be corrected - who, provincially as well, used to

administer such a particular fund. Now, I am probably going back a few years but

at one time, Mr. Speaker, I thought that provincially there was something done

as well.

I would like to support the bill put forward by the Member

for Port au Port and to certainly support volunteers, which I would do any day

of the week, Mr. Speaker. Whether it is in this field or any other field, I have

always been a supporter of volunteers and will continue to do so. I realize that

in this case there are times when these people give risk to their own lives, and

by doing that of course, to their own families.

So I speak in support of the bill, Mr. Speaker, put forward

by the hon. Member for Port au Port. I would ask him if maybe he could talk to

his colleagues on that side of the House to see if we can get some money whereby

we could aid this particular group who provide such a needed service to this

Province.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burgeo & LaPoile.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RAMSAY: The silence is deafening.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, despite the tyranny of the Opposition,

the tyranny of the minority, I want to stand in support of my colleague who, on

a daily basis, imparts me with the views of the people in his district and him

to mine as well, I might say.

Ground, search and rescue: I just wanted to relate a couple

of experiences for the House to consider. Recently an incident that occurred -

it was in the summer of 1995, it was in our own area and of course people were

mobilized near Port aux Basques for search purposes for the body of a young

person who had allegedly drowned at the time. We were not really sure but we all

went and chipped in to help early the next morning. The disadvantage to the

situation was that in Port aux Basques and along that coastal area, there was no

real organized ground search and rescue unit. It was the local fire department,

the volunteer fire department, along with a team of interested people, those who

happened to be around and I suppose friends of the family and this sort of

thing, who got together and went about undertaking this effort.

Now at the time I really was not aware, as a lot of the other

members may not have been aware, of the organization known as, `ground search

and rescue.' Normally when you hear the news and they are saying that rescue

teams are out moving and looking for individuals who had been lost, there is not

always recognition of the ground, search and rescue name for the team in a given

area and that in itself I suppose is a disservice. It is probably because of the

organization being somewhat new. Well, it was 1972 I know but not province wide,

and not given a lot of recognition like that which we are giving them here

today.

The ground, search and rescue unit that we have in Burgeo is

a very active group. In Burgeo they have undertaken quite an effort over the

years and possibly it grew there out of the isolation, I would think, the

isolation that the Burgeo Road has now changed, linking them up more with the

rest of the people through the road network here in the Province.

In the case of Port aux Basques really, I could say, I

suppose, there is no excuse. The volunteer fire department and a certain group

of interested individuals who were involved with leadership positions in the

local militia groups that supported the army cadets, these people, some of whom

where members of the Newfoundland Rangers, often were the ones who undertook

search procedures during the wintertime. They would also be the ones that people

would expect, who would be out searching at any given point in time, along with

the required members of the RCMP and required members of other emergency

services groups.

So it will be interesting, I guess, as more recognition is

taken. It is the kind of thing that I hope to have the people in that area

undertake as a ground search and rescue unit, because that co-ordination and

that support of a provincial mechanism is really part of what is needed, to make

sure that there are maps, that there are people who have the process that they

undertake laid down so that no one gets lost, or hurt, or suffers exposure in

any way, in trying to rescue someone else. That is the key part of it and it is

very important. Often times, I think, without this kind of organization, we have

individuals who are put at risk. Granted, there is an element of risk anyway,

but they are put at risk in trying to rescue their fellow-man, or groups of

people who might be lost for some reason.

We must do whatever we can to recognize and support, as the

hon. member has brought it forward on a timely basis here today; so that that

kind of thing can be prevented; so that the risk to others who are providing a

volunteer public service, does not go unheeded and does not go without the

support of the proper maps, without support of the course work, in a manner not

unlike the orienteering courses that are given to people in the various sectors

such as the Scouts, Venturers, and the female groups, as well, the Guides and

these sorts of things, and also into the cadets and the militia.

Now, they all can play a certain role, but it takes some

leadership on the part of not only elected members but also on the part of

people in the community who are capable woodsmen. I know the hon. member who

sits next to me here, the hon. the Member for Port au Port, is certainly that, a

capable woodsman. He would be the first to complain of the many restrictions

placed on woodsmen, hunters, and fishermen who enjoy the great outdoors. In fact

he has brought those opinions to our meetings many, many times, his concern for

the welfare, I suppose, of the sports hunter and sports fisherman, and those who

just enjoy a casual walk in the woods.

Mr. Speaker, the bill that has been brought forward is

certainly good. It is a shame that it has come forward at a time when we have a

very difficult situation with our provincial finances. I guess, in certain

cases, if the timing were right, maybe it is the kind of thing that we could

help in funding on a provincial basis. I suppose, doing what we can to support

the provincial association so that more and more funding could be made available

from the federal - and not only funding, but support, logistical support through

the MO, through the various police forces throughout the Province, through the

volunteer fire brigades, and others of a similar emergency service nature, that

will help to professionalize a volunteer organization to a point where any one

of us, our families, or our constituents can feel confident in the event of an

emergency, that the people who are out looking know exactly what they are doing,

they have a plan, a very prescribed method of going out, doing a search, and

finding the people, hopefully safe, and at the very least, giving some kind of

support so that those who are missing a member of their families, or even, in

some cases, a member of their community, know that all that could be done is

being done on a proper basis.

I want to commend the hon. member for bringing this forward.

I will stand in support, and hopefully make an effort in the district of Burgeo

& LaPoile to form another ground search and rescue unit out in the Port aux

Basques area, including the communities from Cape Ray all the way down to Rose

Blanche, so that that area, which often does have people who go missing, not

only from the standpoint of missing in the woods or on the ground, but also on a

marine basis we have had many instances over the past number of years where

people have been lost in open boats; and that is also very important, with all

due respect to the hon. members opposite. The weather that we have out there is

very, very serious in its nature. It is very severe. It is also extremely

unpredictable. You can have four seasons in the course of about five miles, and

anyone who knows the area very well, with 160 kilometre winds at Wreckhouse, a

regular occasion, with the sea and the two currents, the Labrador Current and

the Gulf Stream, meeting, you get very, very many weather patterns. You have the

mountainous areas which cause - the Table Mountains and so on.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. RAMSAY: Mr. Speaker, with that I will pass and allow

hon. members opposite to have another comment on this.

I want to commend the member and support him, and seek his

support and assistance in improving the services offered to the people of my

district on the Southwest Coast.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER (Penney): The hon. the Member for Bonavista

South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to support the resolution as put forward by the

hon. gentleman opposite. It is a good resolution. It is a resolution that

reaches out again and speaks about volunteers and the excellent services that

they are providing here in our Province. This is one particular area with which

I am quite familiar, I say to members opposite. The member opposite went on to

name all the areas that now have an active ground search and rescue team. I was

one the people who was, I suppose, instrumental in getting one started in the

Clarenville area. In fact, I was on the executive of that particular ground

search and rescue team for four or five years until we got it up and running,

and then it was predominantly from Clarenville to Musgravetown, in fact. Then,

as it became active and we reached out to get other people involved, it extended

from out as far, I think, as Southern Harbour, down as far as Bonavista, and the

other way probably as far as Port Blandford or Charlottetown.

I remember going to the RCMP stations night after night and

receiving training. First it was compass training; then it was map training;

then it was map to compass training; then we used to go in and do searches. Many

nights, as a group, we would go in on the track on the back of Clarenville. We

would pick a destination and plot it off at the RCMP station, and we would go in

in the nighttime. If anybody wanted to have an experience, or wanted to learn to

trust the compass - because a lot of times people have a tendency not to trust

the compass but to trust what is up here, and you have the wherewithal about you

to want to go where your mind tells you that you should go, and you feel that is

the right direction. That is quite an experience, to go out and do a night

search, to put something, and to plot it out somewhere, plot it out on a map,

and go in at night, just take a flashlight with you, and take the compass and go

right to the point that you plotted out. It is really something, and it gives

you an appreciation.

MR. J. BYRNE: Did you know that they had a declination on

your maps when you were doing that?

MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, yes, you do all of that, I say to

members opposite. I have forgotten a lot of it now because that was back in the

late 1970s, I say to the Member for Cape St. Francis.

I know it was quite an experience. Even today when you talk

to people who are going on Ski-doo rides, and they are going out in the country,

some of those same people you meet and they have their compass and map and they

have learned to trust that.

Mr. Speaker, here is another group of people who I suppose we

could compare to firemen in rural Newfoundland and Labrador because they go out

and, for the most part, raise money to buy equipment. I know this one particular

ground search and rescue is called the Triple-Bays Ground Search and Rescue

Team. They went out and raised enough money to buy survival suits. They raised

enough money to buy compasses and a supply of maps for certain areas. They

raised money to equip themselves with headlights and flashlights, and other

survival gear that they deemed necessary in order to carry out their functions.

As the Member for Burgeo & LaPoile stated, many times when

somebody is lost in Newfoundland you do not have a lot of time to respond. You

do not have a lot of time, Mr. Speaker, to allow this individual to be out

exposed to the elements, when you consider how unkind the Newfoundland weather

has been known to be. It is certainly very satisfying to know we have a group of

well-trained individuals capable of conducting a search in a very professional

way right in our own area.

I remember just a short time ago when there was a - well, it

turned out that it was a casualty in the Clarenville area. The local ground

search and rescue team went in that night, a cold bitter night, raining, and

they found the individual the next morning. The gentleman had a heart attack and

he passed away right there in the woods. Those people went in and, as I said, in

a few short hours after daylight they had the individual, with the help of the

RCMP, and the police dogs were there. But it was the ground search and rescue

team that found him and brought him out. Many times those stories can be told of

similar happenings right across this Province.

It is not uncommon for this particular team to not only go in

the bush and search for somebody, but as the member stated, sometimes it might

mean going out in a boat. It might mean being taken aboard a helicopter and

dropped off in totally unfamiliar territory. But those people go in there, they

are well-trained, and they do a really commendable job.

I don't think the ground search and rescue teams in any part

of the Province receive any compensation for what they do. In fact I know they

don't. I think the RCMP office has access to money that it sometimes can provide

them with travel cost. It is very minimal. If the people from Clarenville, for

instance, have to conduct and take

part in a search over in Southern Harbour,

the call goes out, they will meet in Clarenville, and they will all form a car

pool or whatever there, and they will go out. I think maybe food will be

provided to them, and that is all - nothing else. Everything else is at their

own expense and they are responsible.

The things they do, as I said, are second to none. They are

to be commended for putting their own lives at risk, and for going out and

having to walk over bogs and having to go up to their waists sometimes in snow,

and having to leave their families and leave their places of work sometimes

without compensation - many, many times. I don't think you will see them come

back in at eight o'clock and say: I have to go to work. They have arrangements

made with their employer, for the most part, that he will allow them time off to

go and perform their duties as ground search and rescue people. But I can

guarantee you that not all employers pay them while they are out performing

those duties. So for many of them it might be not only an expense of getting to

and from the site and carrying out their duties as they perceive them as being

ground search and rescue volunteers, but in some cases it might cost them a day

or more of pay as well.

It is not uncommon to see the ground search and rescue teams

take

part in floods. I remember a few years ago when the Shoal Harbour River

overflowed its banks and flooded due to an ice build-up on that river. Some of

the homes there and some of the residents there were threatened to a point where

they were not allowed to go back into their houses - they had to vacate their

houses. But when the Emergency Measures organization went out there to survey

the damage and to look at what they might do in order to clear the river, the

people by their sides were the local volunteers in the community. They were the

people who were there helping them decide what to do, planning a strategy. When

they drilled the ice there and blew up the places where the river was narrowest

and where it was frozen the deepest, those volunteers took

part in all of that.

Those are the people whom we sometimes forget. We take them

for granted. We are all right ourselves. Unless you have an experience to call

somebody to help you, you just take it for granted. You don't recognize it, you

don't know they are there, and I suppose for the most part we don't care because

we don't have to use them. We don't have to call on somebody. I can guarantee

you, with a family out there that has a son or daughter who decided to go in and

put out a few rabbit snares some evening after school, and that son doesn't come

home at nine or ten o'clock, panic sets in and you wonder whom you can call.

That is when it strikes home, Mr. Speaker, you wonder whom you can call and all

of a sudden, somebody tells you that there is a ground search and rescue team,

and you are not long in calling them.

AN HON. MEMBER: Were you there?

MR. FITZGERALD: Was I there, when?

AN HON. MEMBER: Were you (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I was part of it, yes. I was part of a

ground search and rescue team, I just said.

Mr. Speaker, this is when the sudden reality strikes home of

the importance of this group of people. That particular person and that

particular family will never ever forget what you have done, I can guarantee you

that. But for the most part, we take them for granted because we never have to

call on them and we never have to use them. We see them in the shopping centres,

Mr. Speaker, selling tickets or we see them, with a cold plate, some of us

sponsor, some of us go and support them and some of us do not, but what those

people are doing, is volunteering their time, out collecting dollars to put

right back into our own communities so that they can provide us with a form of

protection that will be there should we need it.

Mr. Speaker, this, I suppose, is another organization which

makes a community tick, it is another organization that cannot exist without

volunteers; we know government do not have the money to fund every organization

or every group of people who are out there. However important the service they

perform, the government of the day do not have the money to provide them with

all the funds that are needed to carry out their duties. That is why it is

encouraging to see the member - and obviously, he has some feeling for the

ground search and rescue team in his area and in other areas as well, I guess;

that is why it is encouraging to see him bring forward a resolution such as

this. Sometimes we get involved in resolutions in this House, Mr. Speaker, that

are only brought forward to separate, to cause a division, to shame the

government into doing this or to shame the Opposition into doing something else.

Many times these resolutions are brought to this House for that one purpose

only, almost as if to say: I got you, I got you. We will stand up and have a

standing vote on this just to see how they will vote, and we will shame them

into it and shout at them. This is not a resolution like that.

This is a resolution that speaks for volunteers in this

Province, Mr. Speaker, and brings this group of volunteers and the duties they

perform to the floor of the House of Assembly. This is a resolution that shows

that we, as representatives of the people out there, recognize the efforts of

those particular people who provide such services to our communities and it is

certainly encouraging to see resolutions such as this come before this House of

Assembly. So, Mr. Speaker, we over here, I am sure, will unanimously support

this resolution and I congratulate the member for taking the time to write it

and to bring forward the wishes of his people to the floor of the House of

Assembly.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to have a few words on this resolution.

Mr. Speaker, I think that, as the former speaker just said,

it is a very, very important resolution and as far as I am concerned, whether it

is an organization or whether it is a resolution or a matter that has to do with

our people, it is sort of a motherhood resolution. At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, I congratulate the Member for Port au Port for bringing this resolution

forward.

I think there are some twenty-four organizations, twenty-four

ground search and rescue teams around the Province and, as the member stated

earlier, another is in the works with regard to the Northern Peninsula. Now, on

the Northern Peninsula, they have one in Rocky Harbour and I think they have one

in Roddickton but on the rest of the Northern Peninsula they do not have

anything and I think that especially in that particular area of the Province, in

wintertime especially, that is one place where it is well-needed.

As the other speakers have said, this is primarily a

volunteer organization. Now, I have always said, Mr. Speaker, that volunteers,

as far as I am concerned, are the unsung heroes in public life. All the people

involved in those ground search and rescue teams are working men and women. They

work in the daytime or on night shift, and if they come off a shift at 2:00 a.m.

- I know of examples in Deer Lake where people came off a shift with Deer Lake

Power Company at 12:00 midnight, got a call at 2:00 a.m. and within an hour

after that they were on the scene in conjunction with the RCMP officers and so

on, searching for lost persons, lost people. And, as I said, all of them are

volunteers.

Their training aspect - they get together and they go through

different procedures, especially First-Aid. There are certain members of that

ground search and rescue team who do not have First-Aid courses, do not have

survival courses. A certain amount of training is needed. You cannot just put

anybody in the woods. They have to train - for argument sake, the big one is a

compass. How to use a compass is one of the first things that they do. Now, a

lot of the people involved in those ground search and rescue teams - I can speak

for the one I have in Deer Lake. The Deer Lake Ground Search and Rescue Team in

that area is one that has been in existence for some time, very active. Even

when there is nothing on the go, no one to look for and nothing to do like that,

they keep in touch. They have dinners - in fact, it was only a couple of

weekends ago that they had their annual dinner in Deer Lake. They keep together

and make sure that their members are ready in case there is a call to assist the

RCMP or whoever else that might call for assistance, and there are no questions

asked.

One of the

whereas's here, "at the present time, ground

search and rescue units exist throughout most of the Province, both on the

island and in Labrador," but there is no assistance. The member has in his

second last "Be it resolved" - that this Honourable House, on behalf of the

people of this Province, should express its appreciation and support for the

work of these ground search and rescue organizations." That is so true, Mr.

Speaker.

There is absolutely nothing, as the member mentioned and

others, they cannot even get a map. If they go out and ask for a topographical

map for instance, of the particular areas which they have jurisdiction over or

which they sort of police, they have to pay for that. I think it used to be $8

but I think it has gone up more now. They have to even pay for the map of that

particular area, which is crazy. I mean, they are volunteers, they are doing a

service to the people of the Province, a service to government. As we all know,

the RCMP these days, their numbers are down and they cannot do the same work and

even when it was up, the RCMP officers came into a particular area...

I remember in Deer Lake one time, there were twelve officers,

they all happened to be transferred and shifted around within a three-month

period. They did not know the area. There were two fellows there who were there

for three years, the most and even they only knew the roads through the

communities and the roads to the Trans-Canada. They didn't know the woods, the

ponds, the lakes, the byroads and the woods roads like the people of the

district, the people who belong to this so-called Deer Lake Ground Search and

Rescue Team. Those people could go on, they didn't need a compass, they didn't

need anything. They would use landmarks. Most of the people, Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians use landmarks. They take a compass with them but you go on a

ski-doo trip, for instance, with someone from over around my area anyway, they

don't go on anything. They use landmarks, they go, they go on. They know how to

survive if they are caught in a snowstorm and they know how to survive if they

get lost in the woods. They are up on this. The RCMP officer in the area did not

know it.

Even the Emergency Measures Organization people over the

years, I have seen examples of that in the area, where the people who belong to

the ground search and rescue teams knew the area so well and could start right

away. A very important subject and a very important reason for those ground

search and rescue teams, is that they know where to start right away. If there

is nobody in the area who knows the area that they are going to search, by the

time they get everything set up, by the time they find maps, by the time they

find roads, the person could be dead, depending on the circumstances. But those

people know the area so well and they are so used to it, they can go on. All

they have to do is get assembled, the RCMP bring them together, fifteen or

twenty people, and they just say where to go, to branch out or whatever in a

certain area, and they just zero in on that particular area, and they do it with

such class, as far as I am concerned - that is what I call it - because they are

professionals in their own right. Those people belong to different groups,

different workers. Some are forestry workers, some work in the agricultural

field, some work with Newfoundland Telephone, they have people working with

environment. I know that the president of the association in the Deer Lake area

works with environment in Corner Brook. The vice-president, or another executive

member there, works with the Newfoundland Telephone Company.

Now that I mention the Newfoundland Telephone Company, I had

a request, I think it was five years ago - you talk about this simple request -

to see if we could obtain so many radios for the members of the Deer Lake Ground

Search and Rescue Team, so that when they did go into the woods they had

contact, short wave. At that time there was no money available; we could not

access any funds. We started a fund-raiser after, I think, and between the jigs

and the reels we probably got two or three radios.

Another example is the pick-up that the hon. the Member for

Port au Port mentioned. There is no equipment whatsoever, there is no set-up

money. I notice in Nova Scotia they give you $100 for each time there is one set

up, and they give you $1,000 a year after, as long as it is in existence, which

is a great help. It is no big money, but it is a recognition, which is very

important. It shows that they are accepted, it shows they are needed, and the

people of the province, and especially the government of the day, appreciates

the work they are doing.

The Member for Port au Port touched on another very important

example. When we say `ground search and rescue' we think it is just on land. It

is not. It has to do with marine today. If anybody followed the speech given

just recently by the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to the Canadian Coast

Guard Auxiliary, you see full well how important those organizations are. That

is another organization that is a volunteer organization. The Canadian Marine

Rescue Auxiliary it is called, and now it has been renamed and it is going to be

called the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary. That is the importance. Again, it

shows recognition. It shows how important those search and rescue people are to

certain areas and to the Province as a whole.

For example, the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary represents 25

per cent of all search and rescue marine incidents annually, all of that. You

take the coast guard. You would figure they would be out and look at the whole

works, but 25 per cent of all the rescues made under the marine part of it are

made by volunteers, by the auxiliary part of the Canadian Coast Guard, and they

have just been recognized now. In fact, they have been given a grant over the

years of $1.5 million, and now they are going to try to get Treasury Board to

increase that for the next five years. That is the federal part, the marine

part, that has to do with all the Canadian Coast Guard. Hopefully, by 1998 - you

talk about recognition. If there is recognition just zeroing in on the marine

part of it, why should there not be a little bit of recognition with regard to

the ground search and rescue teams we have here in this Province that are

providing such a vital service to the people of the Province?

Mr. Mifflin said in his speech: Unfortunately, theirs is one

of the truly great Canadian stories that very seldom get told. Always at the

ready to lend a helping hand, the volunteer element of Canada's Search and

Rescue Program embodies all that is good in our society.

I think, Mr. Speaker, that sums up, really, what they are all

about.

Some of the questions I asked myself over the years, and I am

sure there are other people who have asked them, too: Why do people like this

get together and form such an organization? Why does a group spend so much money

- and their own money - on an organization such as this, strictly voluntary,

strictly volunteers. Why do the members spend so many hours every month training

and be willing to leave the comfort and warmth of their home to walk through the

woods in the middle of the night? Why do a few dedicated members spend hundreds

of hours every year keeping the organization running? There is only one reason,

Mr. Speaker, and that is to save someone's life. Ground search and rescue works

together as a team to find and preserve lives in the wilderness. Whether that be

in the wilderness in the summertime, in the wintertime, any time, or offshore,

they are there voluntarily. They are not asking for anything from anyone.

When they do go out and search for someone and they find him

or her, whether the person is still alive or otherwise, they aren't looking for

recognition. They aren't on the radio saying: We did this or we did that. They

just did what they consider the same job that they had every day of the week.

They just go out on their own time and fulfil this very important service to the

people of the Province, and the people of their particular areas.

I would say, Mr. Speaker, that we all should recognize ground

search and rescue teams in the Province. I think we should pay particular

attention to the last two `be it resolveds' and the last one - and I will repeat

this, and I think the member read it out already: "And be it further resolved

that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador officially recognize the

efforts of these organizations and actively explore ways of assisting them in

carrying out their very important work on behalf of the people of Newfoundland

and Labrador."

That recognition, Mr. Speaker, doesn't have to be in the form

of $50,000, $100,000, $200,000 or $300,000. That recognition could be in the

form of a thank you, and, as I said earlier, probably a few maps, probably

something to help out with training and so on. That as far as I'm concerned

would be a great start to a great organization in this Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Member for Bonavista South is number

one now.

MR. J. BYRNE: Good for him, I would say.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise in my place today to basically support certainly the

intent of the resolution put forward by the Member for Port au Port. I suppose

if there was a resolution put to the House to support motherhood you would have

to stand and support that, I would imagine. Most people would.

To me this resolution, if you go down through it and read:

"And be it further resolved that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador

officially recognize the efforts of these organizations and actively explore

ways of assisting them in carrying out their very important work on behalf of

the people of Newfoundland and Labrador."

The Member for Humber Valley just mentioned that a simple

thank you would be nice. Of course, I certainly appreciate the work that these

people do. As a matter of fact, in the town of Pouch Cove in my district they

have the Pouch Cove Rovers, which is a ground search and rescue group that has

been called upon many times to go and put themselves at risk to save other

people. But shouldn't this be a little bit meatier, this resolution? These

people depend on fund raising for their financing. They do very important work.

I wonder should these organizations get provincial funding. I'm not talking

about millions of dollars now here, but I mean enough to keep them afloat and to

help them along the way. Maybe the resolution should have said that we would

encourage the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to provide funding to

these various groups across the Province.

The Member for Port au Port listed out a number, I believe

twenty-five or somewhere around there, of different organizations in this

Province. Really, it wouldn't amount to a large amount of money, I would say.

These organizations now are in place, but maybe there are some new ones that

would want to start up in different areas of the Province, and maybe some

funding from the Province would encourage those groups in various locations to

start up. The groups that are in existence already probably wouldn't require the

same amount of money to get going. They have their equipment in place. I know

the Pouch Cove Rovers in Flatrock have some equipment down there, and they have

been called out in all kinds of weather.

If we are talking about safety in the Province let us look at

the record, I suppose, of the government. It was only yesterday in the House, I

believe it was yesterday or the day before, that I asked questions with respect

to 911 which in fact would go hand in hand with these different groups, Mr.

Speaker. Back in March 1995 it was the Member for Humber Valley who asked in the

House of Assembly that we get legislation with respect to fire-fighter's

protection, to protect them from being sued.

Back in March 1995, the Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs announced that they would follow-up on that, and it was only recently

announced that it would be cut, it would not be followed-up on. That goes hand

in hand with any rescue organization with respect to response time and getting

in contact with these people in a hurry.

Also, over recent years we saw in the Province lighthouses

being closed down. For example, in my district, just before I became an MHA, the

lighthouse at Cape St. Francis, an historic site, was torn down, destroyed, and

towed away. No one knew anything about it, Mr. Speaker. What did the Province

do? Not a word, not a word, Mr. Speaker, from anybody; done, gone. There have

been lighthouses over the past couple of years that I am not familiar with that

have been closed down, and all geared to safety within the Province.

I do not know if this resolution would really go far enough,

Mr. Speaker. I certainly support it as it is, but I would like for it to go

further. The member talked about volunteers, and I think everybody here so far

with respect to this resolution has talked about volunteers. I am a firm

believer that in this Province and probably in the country as a whole, it is

volunteers that make this Province go around, Mr. Speaker; volunteers with

respect to the fire department, volunteers with organizations such as we are

talking about in this resolution, and volunteers with respect to the municipal

councils.

Mr. Speaker, with respect to these ground search and rescue

groups, they have to be trained, they have to be well trained, for two reasons,

Mr. Speaker. One to protect the safety of the people they are trying to rescue,

and their own safety which is often put at risk. If someone falls over a cliff,

or is caught on a cliff in this Province, which often happens, the fire

departments do respond. The paid fire departments have access to all kinds of

training and they are well trained, but the volunteer fire departments are well

trained also. These people are well trained to the extend, I suppose, that they

can be trained, in that they have to depend upon funding from fund raisers, and

they put themselves at risk. It certainly would not hurt, if in due course, we

could get some provincial funding for these groups.

It is all well and good for us to stand here in our place and

support this bill but we need more than just lip service. We actually need some

concrete actions taken by government to do something to help these different

groups.

One of the members, I think it may have been the Member for

Port au Port, mentioned the Emergency Measures Organization and how these groups

have insurance to protect them if they are injured. I am not quite familiar with

that. I have often thought about the volunteer fire departments and workers'

compensation, and that type of thing, if they are injured on the job, and there

has been some discussion on that. It is only recently that we had second reading

on a bill here to give fire-fighters protection from being sued if they injure

someone or hurt someone in the line of duty when they are acting in good faith.

Maybe in due course government could actually look at

including groups and these organizations in the same legislation. It is probably

a good idea. I do not know if it is feasible or possible but it is certainly

something worth looking at.