.l!l.. Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATI_M REPORT THURSDAY, JUNE 6, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 75

June 6, 1974 . The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 1709 RH - 1 I would like to welcome two distinct groups to the galleries today. First of all from Sacred Heart Elementary School in Placentia we have thirty-five grade eight students, with Mr. Ryan and Mrs. Green ,, and from Seneca College in Toronto we have fourteen visitors,with Mr. Evans and Mr. Grannon accompanying them. On behalf of all honourable members I welcome you to the galleries today and trust that your visit here is most interesting and informative. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS: MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. MR. J.C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, for some time now government has been reviewing the difficult situation brought about by the uncontrollable increase in the cost of living in Canada and in particular in New­ foundland. Most of the collective agreements signed between the government and the unions representing its employees are not scheduled for renegotiation until April 1, 1975.

When these agreements were originally negotiated it was obviously impossible for either side to have properly forseen the degree of escalation in living costs brought about by national and international conditions beyond our control. There have been recent examples of employers in the private and public sectors taking special action by various means to reduce the effects on the unexpected rise in living costs.

The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador have reviewed this situation and has concluded that the cost of living increases are of such a significant nature that it would be unfair and inappropriate for it to wait for the process of collective bargaining to deal with the decreasing purchasing power of our employees. Therefore, special action is required in order to attempt to 6794

June 6, 1974. Tape 1709 RH - 2 maintain the existing standard of living of our provincial public servants. The government is fully aware of a substantive budgetary restraint which it presently faces. Nevertheless cabinet has agreed to authorize the expenditure of an additional $7.5 million for a special payment to IIIOSt of its approximately 27,000 public servants. In making this decision government was cognizant of the representations made to it by the various public service groups and by the Newfoundland Federal of Labour. This includes the NTA, Nape, the union that repre­ sents the St.

John's Firemen and other groups. Effective immediately a special payment of $250.00 will be made to public servants and to teachers employed by the various school boards throughout the Province,regardless of their existing salary level and regardless of the department or public aP,encies in which they are employed. All government c011111issions, corporations, boards and agencies will be notified of this decision as will all board-operated hospitals whose budgets are provided through the Department of Health. There are, of course, some exceptions to this special payment.

Employees who most recently recieved salary adjustment and groups who are present~y negotiating salary settlements will not recieve this special payment since the cost of living escalation has been or will be taken into account in reaching salary settlements. In other words, groups now negotiating collective agreements are not included in this since the negotiations are. proceeding on the basis of the cost of living increase.

That includes groups such as the police, the office workers who just negotiated an agreement at Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission and warders at the peni­ tentiary. '.fheir negotiations are still continuing. It is our hope that the reaction of the public service and of our public service employees will be a favourable one. In addition to this special payment of $250.00 to every employee, a salary scale adjustment of $200.00, effective September 1, 1974 has all ready been 6795

June 6, 1974. Tape 1709 RH - 3 agreed to for many groups across the public service, I am pleased to announce the government has extended this adjustment to include teachers and firemen. In other words the members of the NTA and firemen, in addition to the $250.00 increase, will also receive a salary scale adjustment of $200.00 on September 1, 1974. Complete details on the implementation of these increases have been worked out particularly as the increases relate to temporary and part-time employees.

These details will have been made available co various employers and to employer representatives as soon as possible. It is expected that the special payment will be in the hands of employees around the end of June. In other words, Mr. Speaker. in addition to the quite generous salary increases agreed upon in our collective bargaining negotiations of last year, most of which were for two year contracts due to the fact tha t the cost of living has increased as much as it has,which is beyond our control, we have reviewed the whole situation and all of our collective bargaining agreements that are now in effect.

Rather than state,as we are perfectly justified in doing,that we will stick by those col­ lective agreements,and taking into account the fact that the cost of living has increased as much as it has, we have agreed to make this adjustment in the case of the NTA and of the tiremen who signed quite early on last year when collective bargaining commenced and who therefore did not receive in increases the same percentage as some of the other unions,they will have an adjustment to their scales on September 1, 1974. Taking into account our budgetary position, Mr.

Speaker, on current account,this will cost us all together $7.5 million. This is as much as the government can do. This will be accepted, I think, by everyone,that it is as much as we can do since our current account surplus forecast is only in that amount in any event for this present year. I have copies of this statement. Kr. Speaker, for members of 6790

June 6, 1974. Tape 1709 RH - 4 the House and for the press. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable minister's statement is a classic case of too little, too late. The Government of Canada increased their employees by a straight $500.00 per annum. That would have worked out to a little more in Newfoundland than five per cent per year. The government's decision as annunciated by the minister is even less than that. It is not enough, Mr. Speaker, even to bring the employee groups up even with the cost of living. The cost of living has been rising in St.

John's, according to the consumer price index figures, between twelve and thirteen per cent this year. So all that the government are doing is bringing people up, the 27,000 employees, 8,200 of them teachers and vocational instructors, 7,400 in government departments, 8,400 hospital employees, 1,700 et the university, nearly 2,000 in the government agencies and the boards and the commissions and the corporations, all that they are doing is bringing them up to a point where they are falling still further behind with the rising cost of living. It is too little and it is too late.

The Minister of Finance says that the $7.5 million is all that the government can afford because it is what he is budgeting for his surplus on current account. To that I say two things, Mr. Speaker: •First of all we have all seen the Minister of Finance's budgeting practices. He deliberately or carelessly last year underestimated the current account surplus by an amount of $15 million or $16 million. The total surplus was of the order of $22 million or $23 million and not the $5 million or $6 million he had forecasted. This year he is estimating $7 millions after $14 millions in tax increases.

The other point which should be made, Sir, is that this increase will not stave off the demands upon the govermnent next year. I say now that the employee groups are going to feel they have been badly treated and when they sit down with the government in their negotiations and every single labour agreement with every single employee leaving 6797

June 6, 1974. Tape 170_9 RH - 5 aside the ones - the honourable Minister of Social Services had his bile removed. He should have had his gall taken out as well. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Every single contract,with the exception of those now being negotiated for the police and the warders, expires on the thirty­ first of March next year, The NTA contract runs out. The general service agreement runs out, All the others run out. These people feel they have been treated badly. The Public Service Act last year lead to the start of that. This current treatment by the ministry will only help it.

I regret the ministry's action, Mr. Speaker. I think they should have done more. I do think they should ~ave done at least what the Government of Canada did and brought up these people a straight $500.00 each and then when they went into negotiations next year they could deal with it and we would see what cSlle out of the bargaining process. It is too little, Sir. It is too late. The Minister of Finance and the government have reason to be ashamed and none to be proud of this move this day. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, this is all that we could expect - MR. ROBERTS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance wishes to make another ministerial statement? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I want to conclude my ministerial statement - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: By stating, Mr. Speaker, that this is all we could expect from the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. ~ . MR. SPEAJCEll: Order, please! The honourable member for Bell Island did not indicate that he was rising on a point of order, at least to my knowledge. If he did, okav! So is he pursuin~ his point of order ·/ MR. NEARY: Point of order.

Sir, that it is against the rules of 6798

June 6, 1974. Tape 1709 RH - 6 the House for the Minister of Finance to rise to speak a second time on a ministerial statement after my colleague had spoken, unless we are going to have a full-fledged debate, Sir, and I would welcome it because I want to get into the debate too. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please: I asked the honourable Minister of Finance if he were rising on another ministerial statement and he indicated to me that he was.

I am sure the honourable Minister of Finance is well aware that once he has finished a ministerial statement that he cannot continue with the same again. _MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, what I wanted to tell the House is a point of information. MR. ROBERTS : To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: To a point of information. The honourable Leader of the Opposition is ignorant of the fact - MR. ROBERTS: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Will Your Honour enforce order in this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please! Will the two hon- ourable gentlemen please be seated.

Is the honourable Leader of the Opposition rising to a point of order. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I realize Your Honour has a difficult job in keeping the unruly. You would think his holiday would have quieted h:lm. down a little, Sir, as it has the Premier. Mr. Speaker. the point of order is this; that the honourable gentleman has no right to rise under the guise of a point: of infor­ mation or anything else. If be vi.ah to make another st:ace.ent, be of course bas the right to do so and I have the right to reply. I look forward to his st:at:e.ent:. I look forward even ac>re eagerly to .y reply.

MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, so that you will not: have to waste your tble dealing with these factitious points of order that the honourable Leader of the Opposition continues to make as I will simply refuse to 6799

June 6, 1974. Tape 1709 RH - 7 utter another word. MR. ROBERTS: The minister has made himself very popular. MR. SPEAKER: statements? Order, please! Are there any other ministerial PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member from Twillingate. MR. H.W.C. GILLETTE: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here which has been signed by some 180-odd voters of the Cottle's Island, Luke's AI"II) area. They wholeheartedly supported the efforts by the Local Improvement District Committee to have the road between SU111111er­ ford and Cottle's Island, Luke's Arm upgraded and paved this year.

It is an approximate distance of three and a-half miles which is in a deplorable condition. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition. I know the road quite well. Like many other sections of the roads on New World Island,this

section is in a deplorable condition. I ask that this petition be tabled a_nd oresented to the department to which it relates. I trust, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Transportation and Communications between them will find the funds. the wherewithal to do this pavinp. this year. Thank you! MR. H. COLLINS: Mr, Speaker, I would like to rise on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House to offer our support to the hon­ ourable member in trying to get the small portion of road in the Cottle's Island area done.

I believe in the years I have been here, which is five or six now, there have been numerous pelitions coming in , and read to the past administration and never any action taken. Cer­ tainly the time has come to have that road done and I hope that the minister responsible can find it possible to do so this year. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member from Placentia. MR. F. ALYWARD: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of over 2,000 residents of the Placentia Area and the area served by the Placentia Cottage Hospital. Mr. Speaker, for some time the 6800

June 6, 1974. Tape 1709 RH - 8 residents of Placentia Area and indeed all the area served by that Cottage Hospital have been quite concerned about the need for im­ proved facilities at Placentia. In fact since my election I have had several meetings with the doctors at the hospital and also with the Minister of Health, with the representatives of the council in the area and also with other concerned citizens. Now, Mr. Speaker, the doctors presently serving in that hospital have brought the matter to the attention to the Minister of Health and the government.

I do not think there is any doubt about the need in Placentia for a new hospital immediately. The doctors,in their consultations with me and in their meetings with the Minister of Health,have pointed out to him that first and fore­ most the outpatient department which is by today's standards totally inadequate haa seen over two thousand outpatients per month in a clinic where the waiting room is too small and is directly outside of the doctors' offices, thus making the privacy of the doctor/patient relationship an unexistent entity.

The doctors' offices are too small and two of the four offices have no separate examining room. The doctors' say, "We have all experienced the embarrassment of having a patient walk in our office while a woman was being examined on the exaaining table." The laboratory, secretary's office and treatment room are less than half the size that they need be. Taking the treatment room for example,there is barely enough room for two people to move about as a single treatment table takes up moat of the space. There is no screen for privacy.

There is no adjacent -iting area for patients who need dressing changes, injections, small laceration sutures, etc. Where they do wait is either in the small corridor which contains in addition to the door of the treatment room, the doors to the two doctors' offices, the two exaaining offices and other offices along the corridor • The conditions Ullder which these doctors are expected to practice and the public facilitiea where the public of the area au.st wait to see 6801

June 6, 1974. Tape 1709 RH - 9 the doctors, Mr. Speaker, are really by today's standards in a deRperate condition. In addition, they say that a redesigning and enlargement of the main floor of the hospital is badly needed. The x-ray room is half the size of the rooms in most cottage hospitals and has no decent waiting area. The machine is placed in such a position that the technician cannot see the patient when he is doing a test x-ray and storage facilities are very bad. Now, Mr. Speaker, the whole situation applies to the different areas of that hospital.

The pediatric ward is opposite the only two private rooms which often contain terminal patients and the noises emitting from these rooms are very disturbing to adults and very disturbing to adult patients indeed. In addition there is no isolation room for contagious diseases cases which are many. The nursing stations on the floor of the hospital are nonexistent and there is just actually no sufficient space to provide a good, clean, functional establishment. The phone used for conversation between the nurses, doctors and relatives of patients is within earshot of all visitors.

Nurses injectional syringes are kept across the corridor,in the scrub room adjacent to the operating room,which functions as a storage room for preparing trays, as a sterilizing room and as a utility room for house keeping f~r the OR. "This brings us," the doctors point out;'to the case room and operati11g room suite. · This," the doct~rs point out," is incredible." The case room is across the corridor from the operati~g room and the scrub room. It is used around-t:he-elock by the nursing staff as a room in which to give reports and the case room table is used as a large desk on which charts are prepared.

This is out of necessity however,as where the doctors gown and scrub, this having been done across the corridor. Naturally they say in circumstances like this sterility has to be apart. Also, Mr. Speaker, they point out that the grounds around the hospital are in a desperate condition. There is no nursing home in the area. so the large percentage of geriatric and custodial and conva­ lescent care must be kept at the hospital. 6802

.June 6 , 1974. Tape 1709 RH - 10 Mr, lipeaker, as I menJ;ioned, the Placentia Area has approximately 10,000 people, While I realize the eq,endii:ures by the government in the field of liealt:h are couiderele,it i .s a very small i:;onsolation to the residents of the Placentia Area to see establishments such as the great Health Science Complex presently under construction in St. John's costin11 I suppose in excess of $30 m:lllion, $40 million, or $5C' milliotJ, when the public in areas like this, in this rural distri~t find 1t practically impossible to get even the minimun health care. I do feel, Mr.

Speaker, t .hat this petition which, as I eaid before, is supported by some 2,000 voters i.n the area, should receive the una~us support of all members of the House of Assembly. The situation was so bad that a committee was formed and it was called the Pl;tcentia Hospital Improvement Committee. This committee circulated the petition. They also contacted the various councils in the area and this petition has the endoraeinent of 6803

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1710 NM - 1 the Town Council of Freshwater and also the Placentia Area Development Association. I may say in this respect, Mr. Speaker, that less than three weeks ago the Chairman of the Placentia Area Development Committee, !,fr. Whelan, together with two other members of the councils of Freshwater and Dunville,met with myself and the Minister of Health and familiarized him once again with what certainly must be one of the worst conditions prevailing in any cottage hospital in the province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this did not start this year nor last year, for, as the petition points out,they are complaining really about twenty years of neglect on the health scene. In addition the Town of Jerseyside supports the petition and the Placentia-Jerseyside branch of the Women's Institute. Also, Mr.

Speaker, the Placentia Hospital Development Committee did present a brief to the Health Planninr and Development Committee when it visited Placentia in January and I think that this committee has now reported to the Minister of Health and the people of the Placentia Area are anxiously awaiting the recommendation of that committee which they feel will mean certainly that a new hospital will be constructed in the area, bacause, Mr.

Speaker, it is just impossible to expect hospitals like in Placentia to retain physicians this day and age particularly surgeons who want to practice,if they have to practice in conditions such as prevail in the Placentia Cottage Hospital. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I do not think spending money on the present hospital at Placentia, any substantial amounts, will really do anything but be a waste of money because anyone who is familiar with the structure and familiar with the number of patients which are served by the hospital and familiar with the needs of the area can only conclude that what is needed in Placentia is a completely new cottage hospital,and that the Placentia Hospital Improvement Committee have suggested in correspondence to the minister that the hosptial be a forty bed hospital. I can only say, Mr. Speaker, that I heartily endorse this petition.

I hope that the minister, the cabinet and evecyone who considers this will look at all the facts and look at the needs of the area and also look at a report which I know is in the hands of the Minister of Health~and that is a report of the fire commissioner dated October 1, 1973,wherein he states 6804

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1710 NM - 2 that this structure is of total combustible construction and requires immediate detection of fire. The first necessity is that a complete automatic fire alarm and detective system shall be installed. The present fire alarm system is inadequate and only one fire gong sounds on the ground floor,with no notification of any part of the building. Then he goes into other inadequacies and deficiencies as far as the requirements of the fire code are concerned. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not think I need delay the House any longer.

I am ' glad to be presenting it at a time when we have a large representation in the House from Placentia who I understand are the grade eight students. I know if they could speak,each one of them would stand up and endorse this petition. I only hope that as they continue in their schooling that they will be successful, that they will take an interest in matters such as this in the area and help me to badger this government until we get a new hospital in the Placentia Area.

Before my friends on the opposite side get up anxiously supporting it, I would remind them that the petition properly points out that this is not a prohlem that occurred in the last year or two, it is a combination of neglect over a period of twenty years , I hope that this government will see fit to correct that and I ask the Minister of Health if he could within the very, very near future, let the public and people of Placentia know when they can expect a new hospital which is badly needed in the area. Thank you very much. MJ. SPEAICER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petitioa presented by the honourable and silent -her froa Placentia Eas~ on behalf of 2,000 residents in the 'Various c-ities of Dunri.lle, Freshwater, Placentia, J'erseys:I.Cle and Southeast Placentia and surro1mding areas. Anybody who is fad.liar vith this hospital, Jt:r. Speaker, vill realize that it needs to be replaced.

As a •atter of fact, Sir, I have occasion to visit the Placentia Area once in a while and following my last visit to the Placentia Area I brought it to the attention of the Minister of Health that the residents in the Placentia Area were very concerned about the fact that stories were going around 6805

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1710 NM - 3 that all the doctors in the Placentia Cottage Hospital were going to resign if something were not done about that hospital. My colleague,the Leader of t~e Opposition,put a question to the Minister of Health in the House a few weeks ago on this very same matter and the Minister of Health left the impression that he did not know too much about it. I am glad today, Sir, that the residents in the area have finally gotten in touch with their member and he was able to present this petition on their behalf in this honourable House. I agree with the member, Sir.

I think what needs to be done is that they have to start off from scratch and build a new hospital. J think the government would be only throwing good money after bad to try to do anything with that old,wooden structure that is there at the present time. It is a fire hazard. It is overcrowded. It has out- lived it usefulness, Sir. It should be replaced.

I hope that the government will get its priorities straight from now on and forget bringing over comedians from England and bringing over brass bands from England and ,ooze parties and silver anniversary parties and spend their money usefully, like building a new hospital down in the Placentia Area that is so badly needed. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. John's North. !!R...=.. .:!._._CARTER: T he!!: leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of St. Phillips. The

preamble goes as follows: "We the people of St. Phillips in the District of St. John's North would like to request government authorities who may be concerned with the improvement and upgrading of roads in our area to pave the road called West Point. This road is about four tenths of a mile long, off the Horse Cove Line, route number 50,and is being used by a large number of local residents and outside public, "At present it is a gravel road which is in very poor condition and many of us who have our houses off this road find it extremely difficult to live.

This road is constantly used by the local church members, fishermen, oil delivery service, residents living in the area and is very heavily used by the general public at large who drive down this road since 6806

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1710 NM - 4 it is considered as a scenic route. Because of the very poor condition of this road, the local residents find their houses covered with dust particularly in the su11D11er. It is a constant nuisance to us and a health hazard to the older residents. "DurinJ!. the winter 1DOnths we have constantly encountered difficulty with some of the services such as oil delivery, bus service, postal service, garbage collection, church and burial service. This is because of. the present gravel nature of the road which makes it difficult for snow-clearinr,.

Many of us who go to the church located off this road have found it difficult to get there in the winter. Also a particular portion of this road~~ shown on plan attached is so dangerous that a strong guardrailing is absolutely necessary for the protection of th~ motorists, particularly durinJ!. the winter months. "We hope that the government authorities will realize our problems of living here in St. Phillips and request the authorities concerned to urgently look into the possiblility of paving this West Point Road sometime during the summer or at least before the beginning of winter 1974." Now, Mr.

Speaker, the petitioners have accompanied this petition with a rough plan of the area and it is a road that I am very familiar with. I must say that of t 'he two aspects of it, the paving and the replacement of the guardrailing, the guardrailing is them~~~ urgent because that presents a hazard to life and property. Happily I am able to inform this House that I have been in conversation with the Acting Minister of Highways who assures me that this matter is under active consideration and they will do all in their power this year to at least upgrade the road and do something about the guardrailing.

How far they will get is a matter of speculation. I suppose, but certainly they are J!.Oina to do all that thev possibly can, having regard to all the demands made on the Department of Highways, capital works. Therefore, I - very pleased to be able to present this petition on behalf.of the residents and would like it to be referred to the Department to which it relates and placed on the table of this House. Thank you, MR. E. ROBERTS, Leader of the Opposition: Mr. Speaker, if I may say a word 6801

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1710 NM - 5 in support of this petition as a resident of St. John's North, not a supporter of the present member, indeed somewhat ashamed of him most of the time,but for once he and I are in agreement and I support this petition which he so ably presented. I know the road in question, indeed drove over it just last Sunday.

It certainly needs a new guardrail and furthermore the crib work on the sea side on the seaward side of the road could also stand, and I pass this advice to the Acting Minister of Transportation, could stand a good look, because the crib work is washing away and there is a very !i!:rave danger that evf •n if the guardrail were put there, as it should be, given a heavy storm and that water coming down off the hill where the Jnglican Church is there in St. Phillips, the whole shebang could just go floating out to sea.

I do hope that when the government pave the West Point Road,as they obviously are goin!! to this sU11I111er, they will also pave the Tolt Road. The Minister of Finance is too bashful to ask about this but as he lives there during the summer months I know he would want me to sav that in his view the pavtng of that road is a priority. The people living along that road expect it to be paved this year. I do not know where they got the idea but they feel it is going to be paved this year and for their sake I hope it is paved this year. So I support the petition, Sir, and I do so with pleasure.

I know that the Acting Minister of Transportation will take up this matter with the same energy as he has all the other questions referred to him • I can only say that while I wish the real minister no ill, indeed I am glad to hear he is back in t~e round and one thing and another and will be back from Barbadoes shortly,that the Acting Minister I am awfully glad he is there because in a few weeks he has managed to clean up apparently several months of neglect at the ministerial level in that department.

Well I hope that his tenure will be sufficiently long that he can get this one cleaned up and we can see the guardrail put there. It should not be too big a job to be done by the department's own forces, to be done within the next few weeks. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. MR. J.C. CROSBIE, Minister of Finance: I would like to rise to support 6808

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1710 NM - 6 this petition insofar as it relates to the tolt Road, as the honourable the Leader of the Opposition has mentioned. For two years now, Mr. Speaker, I have been living in a cloud of dust going up to The Tolt Road and with commendable discretion and scrupulosity, as President of the Treasury Board,! have never said a word on behalf of the Tolt Road. I am glad now to have this public opportunity to support the pavin~ of this Tolt Road and to urge the member of the district to get off his fanny and get some action on the Tolt Section.

I have not yet heard him present a petition to this Rouse in connection with the Tolt Road, I will promise him this,that we will have a petition from the Tolt Road for him to present at the next session. We are not going to put up with the member for St. John's North ignoring the Tolt Road any longer. We have at least fifty votes on the Tolt Road, at least fifty,Mr. Speaker, We know that the member for St. John's North was elected by a majority of some 8,000 or 6,000 or so on, but the next time he might like those fifty votes. Who knows what might happen the next time?

If the Tolt is not paved before the next election he need not come back to the Tolt. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Green Bay. MR, B. PECKFORD:· Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition on behalf of 500 residents of the northside of Green Bay in the Connnunities of Middle Arm, Burlington and Smith's Harbour. The prayer of the petition is simply that the government see fit this year to do upgrading of the road that leads from the Baie Verte Peninsula Road to these three communities.

The road to Burlington and Middle Arm and Smith's Harbour is appn,ximatley sixteen miles from the paved Baie Verte Highway, Over the last couple of years it has become a very mportant road primarily because there has been substantial forestry development in the Burlington Area because of the vast timber resources that are present there.

At present the Department of Forestry and Agriculture are putting in an access road,to areas that were untouched before,for forestry development and hence we now have four or five fairly large woods contractors in the area that are cutting substantial wood for Bowaters,in Corner Brook,and also for Labrador Linerboard. 6809

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1710 NM - 7 As a result these large contractors have been able to acquire these larF-e truck trailers and transport their wood directly to the mills concerned and hence the road has taken an awful beating, over the last ten or twelve months especially. The prayer of the petition simply asks that proper ditching be done on this sixteen miles of road and that an upgradine orogramme he instituted this year for proper surfacing of this now important link to the rest of the province. Also accompanying this petition, Mr.

Speaker, is endorsements from the Community Council of Burlington and the Community Council of Middle Arm. Considering that none of the communities have a population over 400 or 500 and that 500 voters have signed their names to this petition, along with the support of the councils in the area, it is obvious that by far the majority of the people are extremely concerned about the condition of this road and they thereby request that action be taken on some upgrading of it in this present year. I heartily endorse the petition, Mr.

Speaker, and ask that it be placed on the table of this House and referred to the department to which it relates. >m. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the petition as presented by the member for Green Bay, a petition from some 500 residents from the northside of the bay, Little Arm, Burlington and Smith's Harbour. We too feel, Sir, that this road deserve  upgrading as a number of roads in the province do and indeed a number of roads in Labrador from where there have been petitions presented before.

But we support the plea of the petition and the prayer of the petition to have it upgraded. The honourable member mentioned the fact that there was some activity on the roads whereby the people were cutting wood for the linerboard mill at StepbeINille. We too, Sir, have roads that Linerboard is using and we presented petitions that have not yet been acknowledged,or no action has been taken on them. We on this gide of the House present the petition to them and ~sk 6810

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1710 ID1 - 8 that the honourable Minister of Finance and the Actini Minister of Hi~hways will see fit to take a look at other roads in the province that are largely used for the production ~f wood and see that they are upiraded and paved as well. REPORT OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. ItON. F. D. MOORES, PREMIER: Mr. Speaker, the Royal Commission on Labrador that has been going on for quite some time, it is with great pleasure that I can table it this afternoon. I apologize to the House in advance that the

summary which was done on the actual commission report, we had summaries for everybody in the House and members of the press 0 However the report itself,there are only I think it is nine copies, There will be other copies made available as soon as possible and I thour,ht that four to the opposition and four to the press and one to be tabled in the House, that is the best we could do. ~._NEARY_'._ Are we allowed to leak it out? MR. MOORES: He can leak anytime he likes, Sir, The Report of the Roy.~l Commission on Labrador, _ Mr. Speaker , is a massive document. as you can see.

Its 1412 pages contain the results of sixteen months of intensive effort by the Chairman, Mr. Snowden, and the commissioners, Cyril Goodyear, Frieda Hettasch and Renee Snell. The commission was assisted in research and clerical staff by up to twenty people at a time, and durinp the course cf its investigation the commission visited particularly every, well just about every community on the Labrador Coast, and spoke to a large cross--5ection of the residents of that part of the province. The comnission, Sir, has laboured well,producing in all some 288 recommendations on practically all aspects of life in Labrador.

During the course of the cODDDission's investigation, the Chairman, ''r. Snowden, was supplied from time to time with relevant information for his studies from the Provincial Planning Task Force documents. This I trust was of some assistance to the commission and its work. From the government's point of view,there are a number of key recoDDDendations contained in the commission report and these can be aummarized 0 a few of 6811

June 6, 1974 Tape 1710 them, as follows: (

l) The reconnnendat ion that the province establish a crown corporation to manage all the affairs no-w under the jurisdiction of the l,abrador Services Division.

(2) That ~ovenunent services generally be centralized in a suitable public buil<lin~ in Happy Valley - r.oose Bay . ('3) That the province, thron~h the Department of Rural Develonment and Plannillf, and Pri orities s·ecretariat of the Exe cutiv e Council, ber.i n immediately to develop, in conjunction 'With the Departmen t of DRl'!':, a subsidi­ ary anreemen t based on the concept of area development a·lon~ the Labrador Coast . NM-9

(4) That the provinc e endeavour to ren~otiate its agreeme nt with the feder al gov.ernment concerning provision of services for Indians and fcski mos of Lahrador. To incre.~se the ~enetal level of e.xr,enditure from $1 million to app r oxi­ m1-1rr.l y ~l. 5 million annually . 6812 . '

June 6. 1974 Tape 1711 (Afternoon) PK - 1 These and the other reco111111endations of the royal commission are presently being evaluated by the planning and priority secretariate in conjunction with the various responsible departments,with a view to working on an overall plan integrated with our plans for the island part of the province development. In some cases the recommendations of the royal co111111ission closely coincide with those of the various task force reco111111endations that had come in earlier.

Steps are already under way, for example, on a logging feasibility study of the area to be flooded by the Lower Churchill Hydro Development. An early action is also anticipated on the preparation of a DREE subsidy agreement to provide funds for the development projects on the Labrador Coast. Mr. Speaker, the problem of Labrador, of Coastal Labrador in particular, is one that has been there for many, many years. It is probably, I think without fear of contradiction, the area that has been the most ne11J.ectea part of our province. It is an area where a very little, Sir, should go a long way there.

Jt is not tnac many people actually live on the Coast of Labrador but the services and the treatment that they have had for twenty­ five years since Confederation is something that I do not think government should be proud of. It is the intention of this government to study with care the recommendations that were made ov this royal commission and certainly to do our utmost to improve the lot of the people of that part of our province. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to table this report, this cotmnission report in the House at this time, also the

summary which will be circulated to all members. MOTIONS MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I will give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bill, A bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm and Adopt The Principal Agreement Between The Government And BRINCO Limited To Authorize The Lieutenant-Governor In Council To Enter 6813

Jume 6, 1974 Tape 1711 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Into Subsidiary Agreements With The Same Company And To Make Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To Such Agreements." MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Education. HON. G. R. OTTENREIMER (MINISTER OF EDUCATION) : Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Memorial University of Newfoundland Act." MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Finance. HON. J.C.

CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Public Service (Pensions) Act.'' AnswerlLlQ. J&_estions for which notice has been i:iven. The Hon. Minister of Justice. HON. T. A. HICKMAN (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr. Speaker, there are several questions on today's Order Paper that I hasten to answer.

Question No. 83, asked by the honourable Member for White Bay South: The honourable gentleman does not identify the group specifically but I assume it is a group primarily of university students who are operating under an opportunities for youth grant. Such being the case,their report was submitted to the Newfoundland Corrections Study Committee and presumably considered by that latter committee.

The answer to Question No. 84, asked by the honourable Member for White Bay South: The question is: What steps have the government taken since January 8, 1972,to provide residential centres or halfway houses or to give assistance to social agencies such as the John Howard Society to enable them to provide residential centres or halfway houses in order that offenders may be assisted in readjusting to active social life?'' There is, Mr. Speaker, a grant again voted this year to the John Howard Society by the province of $13,000.

There is another to the Salvation Army Correctional Services of $12,000, another to the Alcoholic and Drug Addiction Foundation of $45,000 and the new grant this year to the Salvation Anny Alcoholics Centre of $80,000, all of which funds are, not all but some of which funds rather are used in trying to assist people to readjust to active social life. Last December, that is December of 1973, the John Howard Society of Newfoundland submitted a proposal for a community residential centre to 6814

June 6, 1974 Tape 1711 (Afternoon) PK - 3 the r.onsultation Centre of the Department of the Solicitor General of Canada. They received an indication from the Consultation Centre, orally, that their presentation is being looked upon with some sympathy. nther than that no further reply,! am advised,has been received from the office of the Solicitor General. The answer to Question No. 85 on today's Order Paper,from the honourable Member of White Bay South; For the month of December,1973, what were the daily number of persons incarcerated (That is a shocking word.) at Her Majesty's Penitentiary at St.

John's.'' The word that is being used now almost since the days of Elizabeth Fry, is "Inmates'' . AN HON. MEMBER: Inmates or residents. MR. HICKMAN: Or residents. The number is ~ales, 101: Females, 2.4. , AN HON. MEMBER: Two point four? MR. HICKMAN: The Minister of - AN HON. MEMBER: Two point four? MR. HICK"IA!-': The question of - I do not know how I got two point four. Oh,the average daily population,it was aE the question.

The answer to Question No.86 on today's Order Paper: What was the average fur the month of December 1974 - what was the average daily attendance of prisoners of Her Majesty 1.s Penitentiary at St. John's ~t the school operated within the penitentiary? The answer is 14.4. That is the average. "The average " was the question. The answer to Question No . 87,again asked on today's Order Paper by the honourable Member for White Bay South: Since March 31, 1973 and as of current date, ~hat is the number of offenders who were admitted to each of the following government penal institutions?

The Salmonier Prison Farm, 31. 1•'ait now, I am sorry. There were 687 inmates admitted to H. M. Penitentiary between April 1, 1973 and March 31, 197~. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: No, no regretably I lllllY not be here tomorrow and I was anxious to answer the questions as soon as they appeared on the Order Paper so that no honourable gentleman can say that I am delaying answers. they appeared today and they are now being answered. 6815

June 6, 1974 Tape 1711 (Afternoon) PK - 4 AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. HICKMAN: Let me read to the House the answers. The following age ~rouns: Under sixteen years of age, nine: sisteen years but under seventeen, thirty-three; seventeen years and under eighteen years, sixty-six; eighteen years and under nineteen years, sixty-four; nineteen years and over, five hundred and fifteen. There are no admissions directly from the courts to the Salmonier Correctional Institution. All admissions are to Her Majesty's Penitentiary.

Inmates founded suitable for minimum security are transferred to the Salmonier Correctional Institution. We have not used Harbour Grace Jail for over two years. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that during the past twelve months there has been a substantial reduction in the number oi prisoners committed to the penitentiary in Newfoundland, sentenced to the penitentiarv. The answer to Question No·. 88,on today's Order Paper. The number of persons employed in these institutions by the Department of Justice, 120· by the Department of Public Works and Services, one: College of Trades an~ Technology, three.

Question No. 89 What steps have the government taken,since January 18, 1972,to build a new penitentiary with appropriate psychiatric,educational, vocational and recreational facilities? This question too is asked by the honourable Member for White Bay South. This adminiatration shortly after it assumed office requested me to ask the Solicitor General to set up a joint corrections committee, a study coanittee of the federal and provincial governments. This was done under the chairmanship of Mr. Keith Kautz,the Executive Director of the John Howard Society of Ontario.

That report was given t~ both governments last fall and a submission was made to the Government of Canada for the funding of l I a study of firstly.the progr81l'Blles needed and secondly the type of institutions required in Newfoundland. Messere K.L. McRey?olde of Thorne Hill, Ontario,on the recommendation of the Solicitor General's Office,were appointed. They are architects experienced in the construction of correctionals institutions and design thereof and of the programmes. I am pleased to announce that while similar 6815

Junp fi, 1974 Tape 1711 (Afternoon) PK - 5 requeat from other province• have been rejected by the Government of r.anada, in this instance the Government of ,Canada agreed to pay the full cost of the McPeynold, study. That study will be in the hands of the Solicitor General and myaelf,I would say immediately following the federal 1>lection. AN HON. MF.KBER: Inaudible.

MR, HICXMAN: J think that we in this province can take some pride in the fact that it has been indicated to us by the Solicitor General that the prompt and efficient implementation by the Government of Newfoundland of the Correction Study Cormnittee Report puts us away ahead in the planning as compared to other Canadian Provinces. Mr. Speaker, the answer to Ouestion No. 9fi,by the honourable the Member for Bell Island: The answer is "N-tl". The answer to Question No. 109, by the honourable Member for White Bay South, ''Nil•·.

The answer to Question No. 110 on today's Order Paper,by the honourarle Member for White Bay South, "Nil". Mr. Sneaker that answers all the questions on the Order Paper directed to me. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Industrial Development. ~ON. C. W. DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): Mr. Speaker, I have some questions also asked by the honourable ~ember for White Bay South. Question No. 82,which relates to the amount of assistance in my district offered by the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, which I will table.

Question No. 90,which is the Letter of Intent between the Government of the Province of Newfoundland and National Sea Products and associated companies in relation to Burgeo,which I will table. Question No. 118, there is a whole series of sections dealing with the disposition of the assets of the Steel Mill,which strangely enough was also asked by the honourable Member for White Bay South. I guess the Member for Bell Island has digested all that information. Question No. 120.also the answer of which is being tabled here and Question 121. So I will mercifully spare the House. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 6817

June 6, 1974 Tape 1711 (Afternoon) PK - 6 MR. DOODY: No. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. E. MAYNARD: (MINISTFR OF FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE): I have the answer to Question No. 3,appearing on the Order Paper some time ago, Mr. Speaker, asked by the honourable Member for Bonavista North. ORAL QUESTIONS MR, SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is 4:00 o'clock, We have half an hour so I guess our question period is good until 4:30, Sir. My first question is directly to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

Would the minister inform the House if he has received any correspondence or any request from the Master Barberi Association of St. John's to change their opening hours in the barber shops in the City of St. John's? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HC1N. J. G. ROUSSEAr: (MINISTER OF MANPOWER AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS): Yes we have. Does he want me to answer the question before he starts with supplementary questions or does he have supplementaries? MR. NEARY: No, go ahead. MR. ROUSSEAU: We had a request from them, government decided.

We had a request to close Mondays instead of Saturdays. Government decided that it would give the association the option of either coming under the Hours of Work Act, in which they could close on whichever day they wished,or retaining their present status as closing on Saturdays;and that it was so communicated to them this past week. MR. NEARY: Do I understand then, Mr. Speaker, that the minister is proposing to place the barbers under the Hours of Work Act and then they can make their own rules and regulations within the Hours of Work Act? Is that basically what it means? MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes.

They are going to stay as they are now. MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. ROUSSEAU: They are going to stay as they are now. MR. NEARY: They are going to stay as they are now. I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, Sir. It is rumoured, Mr. Speaker, that the land freeze in the Deer Park has 6818

June 6, 1974 Tape 1711 (Afternoon) PK - 7 been lifted. I wonder if the minister can confirm or deny whether this is correct? MR. MAYNARD: There was never any land freeze in the Deer Park Area, Mr. Speaker. The Deer Park Area is being studied by the environmental people as to the impact on the ecology of the area by the many swmner cabins. We are dealing with applications on an individual basis. Any aoplication that is approved by the Environmental Division of Provincial Affairs and the Environment is approved by us. It is as simple as that. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister inform the Rouse then if 300 applications have been approved or will he approved in the foreseeable future to build summer cabins in the Deer Park Area? MR. MJ YNARD: I am not aware of anything of that nature, Mr. Speaker. I am sure it would have been brought to my attention before it would he made known to anyone else. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister would give us an update on the land freeze in the greater St. John's Area, in view of the fact that so many people proposed to build homes this summer and they cannot go ahead with their plans because of the land freeze.

What is the min.ister doing about this now? Could the minister J?;ive us an updated report on the land freeze? Ia it going to be lifted or what? MR. MAYNARD: We have had a couple of persons, soil analysis people working on a survey of the St. John's Area.where the land develooment area control was brought in for the past month. They expect to have all of their work done, especially in the critical areas around the major communities,within the next couple of weeks.

At that time or during that time we will be discussinJ?; the new areas that we want to retain for agriculture purposes, with the councils and interested groups. After these discussions are held, I hope to be able to present to government any amendments to the development areas that are necessary. It is my opinion that we should be able to release a fair number of areas that do not have agriculture potential from the development control. I would assume this should be done by possibly the last of this month. MR. NEARY: Another supplementary question: Mr.

Speaker, will the minister inform the House what the government intend to do about land that they 6819

June 6, 1974 Tape 1711 (Afternoon) PK - 8 consider to be agricultural land? Will the government purchase the land that is not being developed now by the present owners? Or will the freeze continue? Just what will happen when the soil analysis tests are finished? MR. ~ YNARD: That is a question, Mr. Speaker, that relates to future policy of the government, I am not able to answer at this particular time. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question: Would the minister inform the House if all the applications outstanding from people who want to build homes at the present time have been approved or deferred or just ignored? What is happening? Because I have one here, Sir, from a gentleman down in Dogberry Hill Road, in St. Phillips, who called me up and said that he could not get his application approved. You know, is there a backlog of applications? What is the minister doing about all of these applications? These people want to build homes - MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. NEARY: -this summer. MR.

MAYNARD: There is no backlog of applications. Mr. Speaker, some applications are approved and some are refused but within two or three weeks after they reach my department, at the outside of two or three weeks they are decided upon and the applicants are advised whether or not we will approve or reject their applications. If the honourable memher should have one that was rejected obviously the person must have been given notice on it. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. Would the minister inform the House then what happens in the case of an application that is rejected? Do these persons have recourse to appeal?

Is there an appeals procedurer What can they do? Or does the minister have the final word and just say no and that is it? Is there any recourse to appeal? MR. MAYNARD: There is no anpeal procedure at the present time other than appealing my decision to me. Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Hon. Premier,who happens to be ~ack in the province for five or ten minutes or so, would inform the House if his government or the Premier himself is negotiating with Chief Superintendent Fraser of the R.C.M.P.,who is soon to retire,to become the 6820

June 15, 1974 ombudsman in Newfoundland? th:1.s is correct or not? HON. F .• D. MOORES (PREMIER).: Tape 1711 (Afternoon) PK - 9 Could the Premier confirm or deny whether Not to my lmowledj!:e, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Not to his knowledge! Mr. Speaker, I wonder if t he Minister of Education over there could tell us what ste_ps his department are taldng to extent the facilities of the Technology College and the Vocational Schools to take care of all of the applications for train~ and retrain ·in.g this coming Set1tember! MR. SPEAKER: The Ron. Minister of Education. MR .• OTTENHEIMER.: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think in general there has been indicated and that if! in the vocational t:rainin11 tnst:!,t•1ter; thPr,. 1<; 't"r hP. a longer teaching day next year; with what one could call a shift system 9 although it is not that in the sense of 6821

June 6, 1974 Tape 1712 (afternoon) IB-1 two shifts,and that this will enable these institutions to process approximately an extra 1,200 or 1,300 pupils. l-'R. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister would inform the House if there is any truth to the storiFs which are making the rO\Blds that negotiations are under way by either the College of Trades and Technology or the vocational branch of the minister's department to take over St. Bride's College, Littledale,for the purpose of extending vocational and technological training pro~rammes? MR. OTTF.NHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, there have been discussions with the people responsible for the administration of St. Bride's College about what would be possible uses for that facility.in view of the fact that that college is not getting a very great number of applicants for the purpose for which it was originally constructed. There has been no agreement as such. There have been general discussions. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question then: I would assume, Mr. Speaker, that negotiations on it are being carried on on a continuing basis. Negotiations are not complete. They are still going on.

By t~e university or by the College of Trades or by the vocational branch of the minister's department? Who is conducting the negotiatiors? MR. OTTENHEIMEP.: There have been discussions between representatives of the Department of Education and St. Bride's College,exploring various possibilities for the use of facilities there,some of which would be various aspects of post-secondary training and vocations, secretarial kind not shop kind. These are still exploratory. No firm decision has been made by the administration of St. Bride's nor tne aeparcmenc. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Mines and Energy could tell us if he has yet made up his mind or if his government is still studying whether or not they should place the regulation of oil and gasoline prices under the Board of Commission of Public Utilities in this province the same as they have done over in Nova Scotia? RON • L. D. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY) : Mr. Speaker, as I have said several times before, · we are continuing to have close consultation with the Nova Scotian authorities to determine the effectiveness 6822

June f, 1974 Tape 1712 IB-2 of their regulation. In this the points that we have made previously are borne out by the fact that we have learned the Nova Scotian government is contemplating some amendment to their existing legislation. I think, Mr. Speaker, that this emphasizes the need for us to go slowly here, to see and determine just how effective regulation can be. There is no magic in regulation. The object of the game is to determine whether we can bring down the price to the consumer, not to put an additional burden on the taxpayer by creating another government regulatory agency.

The object is to determine how we can effectively reduce the price to the consumer. We are actively engaged, Mr. Speaker, in assessing the opportunities that we have for bringing down the price to the consumer of petroleum products. I think, Mr. Speaker, that while the opposition has been stressing time after time that the Nova Scotian legislation is perfect, that we should _just rush in blindly and follow behind the lead of the Nova Scotian government, I think events are proving that the way we are proceeding in this matter is the proper one, that we will assess just what is happening in Nova Scotia.

It has only been in effect for a couple of months there. We are going to assess just how effective their legislation, their regulation is going to be,and then we will act, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister could inform the House if his department has taken any steps to rectify a situation that has developed since the major oil companies announced the 3.7 per cent increase in the price of gasoline and fuel oil, to correct this situation that has developed as a result of the inventory alreedy · being in their storage tanks1 My understanding and I think the understanding of the general public is that they were not permitted to increase the price of oil or the price of gas on inventory that had already been in the tanks,tmtil ~hey topped off their tanks.

I am thinking about Bell Island, Sir, in particular,because Imperial Oil and Irving have storage tanks there that have not been topped off since last September. Yet they increased the price 3.7 per cent. What is the minister doing about that kind of a situation? 6823

June 6, 1974 Tape 1712 IB-3 MR. ROBERTS: He agreed to it. MR. BARRY: The honourable gentleman misleads the House if he make this statement. The honourable Leader of the Opposition if he should say that I agreed to that statement{ it is a falsehood. Mr. Speaker, is that parliamentary? It is misleading, deceptive and incorrect, Mr. Speaker. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is a lie. MR. BARRY: The honourable Leader of the Opposition's Liberal colleagues in Ottawa agreed to it and consented to it, I have no doubt probably even encouraged it. This government nor myself did not agree to any such thing. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible.

MR. BARBY: Myself and the honourable Minister of Justice I do not think have ever had a meeting at the same time with Mr. Trevor Hoose, have we? I guess this is the usual - MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: The honourable Leader of the Opposition is out to lunch. I can answer the member from Bell Island's question, Mr. Speaker, without this. I do not mind interruption but this incorrect and misleading interruption, it is just nonsense. The honourable member from Bell Island has got to realize a couple of things.

One, the policy is as laid down,that there should be no increase on inventory, on stored petroleum products that are not subject to crude price increases. In other words, that if there should be oil in storage that was purchased cheaply by the companies, there should be no increase. There is at times a five month, six month, seven month, eight mopth lag from the time that the oil companies purchase the higher price crude and the time that they bring into effect a price increase. This has caused some confusion, Mr. Speaker, in the past and it may be what is causing confusion in the honourable member's case.

If they have not been topped off since September, it is unlikely that they were subject to any - AN HONOURABLE MEMBPR: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: , I would have to check into the specific case. As I recall, 6824

June 6, 1974 Tape 1712 IB-4 Mr. Speaker, the first price increases by the Arabs and the Venezuelans occurred sometime in .July or Aupust of last year. That was the first increase. It would be nowhere near the total increase that has taken place s 1 nee rh,m. There werr some price increases in July and August of last year. r:1 ve say a month for this oil to get from these countries throuph the Canadian refineries, so one is talkinp about a month aften.rar<ls that they would be. MR. N}APY: lnaudibJr... ~R. BAPRY: Well, there were some price increases prior to last fall. MR.

NEARY : lnaudtl , 1 e. ~~-__ J:ARRY: Wr J 1, this is contrary to our policy. As I pointed out in a press release recently, Mr. Speaker, following discussions with a numher of the oil companies, Shell has agreed that it will not implem r>nt the .4 r:ents a gallon which the Liberal government in Ottawa authorized it to bring into effect if 1t wished to cover increased opC'rating costs. Imperial Oil ,with resnec:t to the postal c:ommuni ties where they have not topped off the tanks ,have ai,:reed to roll back the price. AN HONOURABLF. 1-'El-'BER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Oh, nonsensel YR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~R.

BARRY: Mr. Speaker, finally the point that I would like to make here is that just like any other produc~ gasoline and other petroleum products are being sold for different prices by different companies. Now, maybe the monopoly that the honourable member for Labrador South has - he may have the same price in every community, I do not know. I would say that the consumers should shop arormd for ~asoline prices to see the lowest price for gasoline or any petroleum product .1 ust the same as he should shop around for low prices on cereal or bread or milk or eggs or anything else.

Now, there is no question that prices have gone up generally right across the board. There is still some differential and the customer should go and look for that and give his patronage to the companr that sells the cheapest price. That is all I can say on that point unless the honourable member has another question. 6825

June 6, 1974 Tape 1712 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not have mother question but I am not satisfied, Sir, with the minister's answer. AN HONOURABLE ME~ER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, this is Thursday. mt. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, the honourable IB-5 gentleman is not asking a question. He is trying to make a speech or a collllllent which is quite out of order. 1'fR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The honourable gentleman having participated in ramming rural changes through the House should at least know what they are about.

The Standing Orders give my colle~gue or any honourable member.as Your Honour is aware, the right to stand and to say that he is not - the exact rule is that a member who is not satisfied with the response to an oral " question has the right - Ah! The Minister of Finance remembers it. ~aybe his Venetian holiday has gone to his head, Sir, and makes him a little weak in his knowled~e of the rules. I submit that my colleague is in order. If in fact he is not satisfied with - that now seems to be easy on him.

He is the best spokesman Imperial Oil has ever had in this province, the best defender of the corporate interests, the best handmaiden. So, I submit, Mr. Speaker, before Your Honour rules me out of order, that the honourable gentleman from Bell Island is quite in order and has a right to say whether or not he is satisfied. MR. SPEAKER: It is a little difficult for the Chair to _rule whether or not the member for Bell Island is in order because he was not given the opportunity to say anything. So, I will have to hear him out. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, what I was about to say before I was so rudely interrupted by "Old Scrooge", the Minister of Finance, was that I am not satisfied with the answer given me by the Minister of Mines and Energy, I would like to debate the matter, Sir, during the late-show period this afterno011. I believe that it will start at 5:30 P.M. I am in Your Honour's hands because 6826

June 6, 1974 Tape 1712 IB-6 I understand that notification has to be given in writing before 4:00 P.M. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. MR. NEARY: Before 5:00 P.M.? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: 5 : 00 P. !I . MR. NEARY: Well, I will have it in Your Fonour's hands in writing in a few minutes. MR. SPEAKER: While it is true that it has to be in my hands by five o'clock on the same day that the question is asked, I also have to indicate by four o'clock on Thursday the ite~s to be debated at ·s:30 l'.M. So it will have to wait until next Thursday's late show. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, may I point out to Your Honour that the oral question period did not start until four o'clock. There was no way that I could have asked the question and have it in Your Honour's hands before four o'clock. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair has no control over the time when the question period co11111ences. So I rule that the matter will have to be debated next Thursday. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could we debate it by leave of the House, Sir? l'nanimous consent of the House. Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKEF: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. MR.

SPEAICEP: Does the honourable member have leave to debate the question just mentioned at 5:30 P.H. today? Agreed? It ts not unanimous so permission rill not be _grsnted. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr, Speaker, obviously they do not want to ctiacusa anything concerning the real needs of the people of this province. Sir, I have one a,re question for my old buddy there who got a new hair style today I see. He must be using my barber now. This has to do with a DREE grant for the Marystovn Shipyards.

Win the minister inform the House if all the requirements have been -met by the provincial government to qualify for this $309,000 DREE grant for the expansion of the Marystovn Shipyards? 6827

June 6, 1974 Tape 1712 IB-7 HON. W. DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): I do not quite follow the question, Mr. Speaker. The offer has been made by the DREE people and it has been accepted by the province. So, I assume that all the conditions must have been satisfactory to the department in Ottawa. The money has been offered to the Marystown Shipyards. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: They waited long enough for it. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Social Services whom I am pleased to see back in the House again.

Would the minister confirm or deny that a number of recipients of social assistance have received ten dollars less on thier May check than they received in April? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ten Dollars? That is only mild compared to some ot tnem. HON. A .M. MURPHY ()•INISTER OF SOCIAL ASSISTANCE): Well, I am really not aware of any. I have not had any complaints come to my desk. I will check it. Would the honourable member give me some cases or does he want me to check every case and find out if they got ten dollars less? MR. SIMMONS: Oh, I would be happy to give the minister some cases. MR.

MURPHY: Just ask the question in the office. That is what I am there for. The honourable member need not stand up here in public and ask it. MR.. ROBERTS: What is th~ honourable minister here for? MR. MURPHY: I do not know really. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: I agree with the honourable minister that he does not know. MR. MURPHY: After listening to the goings on this afternnon, I BD1 just wondering if I am wasting my time. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

If honourable member wish to use up the thirty minute time limit on the question period by interjections back and forth across the honourable House, perhaps that is what should be done. MR. SIMMONS: Sir, in response to 6828

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1713 NM - 1 the minister's inquiry, yes I do have a number of cases which I would be prepared to give to him privately but I was rather attempting to see if the number of cases that have come to my attention indicate a policy on the part of the department My question still stands. the minister's knowledge, has the department docked as a matter of policy a number and perhaps all for that matter but a nlllllber of recipients of social assistance? I know of at least a-half a dozen or seven cases, MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

I would like to interrupt the honourable member for Hermitage, I am sure that the honourable member is aware that he should not be making a speech in attemptin~ to ask a question, MR. !-IURPHY: Your Honour, I can give him an answer which I think is correct. Is it the fuel allowance I wonder that normally ceases in May? I vill check the thing out anyhow. That 111llY be it. MR. SIMMONS: Supplementary; what fuel allowance is the minister talking about? · MR. MURPHY: It is an extra $10 put on for the winter season, if there be such a thing here. MR. NEARY: No, that is all cut out now. MR.

SIMMONS: Mr; Speaker, a supplementary question: MR. MUFPHY: The member knows all about it. MR. NEARY: I know more about it than the minister does. KR, 'MURPHY: I would not doubt that. Be is deeper in the Department of Welfare than I am. MR, SPEAKER: The honourable member for Henaitage is attempting to ask a question and one honourable member to my left and one to my right,who do not have the floor,are preventing him for doing this. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I did ask what fuel allowance,and in view of the minister's response I should like to ask a supplementary question. ln view of his response,where does this leave the statement in his letter of November 30, 1973,.which I shall quote as follows, in a letter signed by the minister? ''For the months of November and December this year, if you are receiving a fuel allowance you will be paid an a•ditional $10 a month." 6829

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1713 NM - 2 I am reading fr0111 a letter which the minister sent presumably to all recipients of social assistance. "This amount will remain as part of your regular monthly cheque, however, in future it will not be called a fuel allowance and will not be taken off your cheque in May as in previous years." In view of this statement, Mr. Speaker, what is the department's r,oUty'/ l!ave they changed their minds since they wroce thac letter? Have they now taken off the fuel allowance which they said did not exist? MR.

SP!'..AKER: I have to interr11pt the honourable member for Hennitaf(e once again. He was making a speech. MR. MURPHY: In response to that I said it may be the fuel allowance, I did not say that is what it was. That is the only thing struck me. I said I will check it out, Sir, I will check it out. We have 60,000 people receiving cheques. What the six lost their ~10 fo½I do not know. !.fR. SI~NS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, is the minister now indicating to us that there is no such thing as a fuel allowance and that indeed if people have been docked in May it is not for this particular reason?

AN HON. '!EMBER: Answer it. MR. MURPHY: me to say? have answererl three times. What does he expect, I said I will ?et the answer from the office. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The honourable member for ~ermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industrial Development. 'lhe minister indicated in the House in response to a question I put four or five weeks ago that a proposal for industry submitted by Mr.

Spencer Lake and his associates for the development of industry in the Baie d'Espoir Area, that that proposal had been referred to a committee for study and that he would expect to have a report from the committee within two weeks of the date on which he answered the question. Would he now indicate whether he has received the r~port of co111111ittee? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. I do not have the report yet. 6830

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1713 NM - 3 MR. SIMMONS: Supplementary: When does the minister expect to have the report of the co111111ittee, Mr. Speaker? MR. DOODY: I cannot say,Your Honour. I hope to get it as quickly as I can. I had hoped to get it prior to now but it has not been received as yet. I will certainly check on it to see what has happened to it. MR. SIMMONS: A question for the Acting Minister of Transportation.

I enquired of the minister about two or three weeks ago concerning the matter of the proposed ferry for the Gaultois-Hermitage run and he indicated to me at that time that he would get the answer to the question. Does he have the answer at the moment? MR. ROUSSEAU: I am sorry I do not. I will undertake to get it this afternoon, I have the one on the engineer. ,{e is satisfied with that one? I looked at it\ there was a first part. I forgot the second part,to be quite frank with him. I will take it out this afternoon. MR. SIMMONS: The minister - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

SIMMONS: Yes I have a quick one and I am through then. The minister just allude;, to tile other matter, the matter of the road for Gaultois, and he mentioned ·that the engineer had been in there, That is true but would the minister undertake to find out what is next, what further plans the department has to expedite this matter of the road this season. MR.

ROUSSEAU: The engineer and the officials of the Department of Transportation and Communications are now assessing the impact with the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing and as soon as we have a report then.which may be any day, we will then look at it and consider it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Health, I wonder if the minister would agree to lay upon the table of the House the reports, which has been d~ne on a joint , federal-provincial,basis, tor Grand Fa!Is, Clarenville, Bonavista? (The Burin Peninsula one is not done as yetJ and also the reports in which the IDfA participated, 6831

.June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1713 NM - 4 The Health Task Force Studies. I may not have the correct name but I think the minister knows the reports to which I refer. Wnuld he undertake to lay these upon the table of the House, Sir? DR. ROWE: I will take notice of the question, Mr. Speaker? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could get a quickie in to the Premier before we get up to 4 :10 P. M.?

With the hopes and expectations of all the unemployed in Newfoundland this year built up by the government,expecting to get jobs at the second oil refinery at Come By Chance, would the Premier inform the House what is happening on that second oil refinery? Is it off the rails? Are we going to get it at all? Just what is happening? I heard the Minister of Industrial Development make a statement today. Can the Premier confirm or deny what the minister said is correct? They are not going to start until the fall of the year and then it is very doubtful. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I did not hear what the minister said on it today but the business of when it will start and how quic kly it will start as far as we are concerned we would like to get it going as quickly as possible. However. unli ke the previous arrangement where the province underwrote the financing of all the refinery and had probably more imput than is presently the case, in this case our comparative share compared to the previous commitment by the previous administration is not as great.

It is between the owner and the contractor, We are putting every pressure we can on to try to get them to get planning and well their construction initiated as quickly as possible. As I understan<l it now,the Technip Engineering people are reporting t~ the Shaheen Natural Resource people, I think it is this month, hopefully~-ana as a matcer of fact, Sir, we are planning to contact Mr. Shaheen within the next few days and get a very definitive position on exactly what and when it will be started. MR. NEARY: In other words, the Minister of Industrial Development's statement was not correct today.

He said the commencement was delayed until the fall of the year,and that is not a correct statE!lfent. 6832

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1713 NM - S MR. MOORES: lt may very well be a correct statement, Mr. Speaker. The minister could have been in touch with Mr. Shaheen. I have not had a chance to discuss it with the minister. I know his opinion is the same as mine, that we will do our utmost to get it going as quickly as possible. Ml.. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Before the question period comes to an end,I think the member for Labrador South was attemptin~ to ask a question. MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, It is a very short queRtion I wish to direct to the honourable the Premier• "·"' Lita t the r:11~1 ish language version of the Labrador Royal Commission Report has been presented, I wonder if he could indicate when we might expect the same report in the Cree and Innuit language? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the situation is that due to the size of the report it will take some time to get the nwnber of copies out that are going to be desired of the report itself. As soon as that ends,the translated version will be commenced iDDDediately. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, before we call Orders of the Day_: From the viewpoint of getting things crystalized, I propose to call motion (1), which is a committee to consider the raising of monies for the purchase by the province from BRINCO of all interests of that company into the hydro-electric facilities and water rights in Labrador • It has been a~reed with the honourable and affable member from White Bay South that we would debate this loan bill together with the agreement bill, the bill ratifying the agreement which the honourable the Premier gave notice of today,so perhaps we could call first reading,by leave,of Bill No. 105 which the honourable Premier gave notice of today, Then I can move the House into co11111ittee at which time we will,by leave again,debate both bills.

Then when we come out of committee we will just be giving the first, second and third reading to the one and the second and third reading to the other,without debate. 683]

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1713 NM - 6 On motion of the honourable Minister of Finance, a Bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt A Principal Agreement Between The Government And Brinco Limited, To Authorize The Lieutenant-Governor In Council To Enter Into Subsidiary Agreements With The Same Company And To Make Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To Such Agreements," read a first time, ordered read a second time presently, by leave. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

On motion of the honourable the Minister of Finance, a Bill, "An Act To Provide For The Raising Of Moneys Required For The Purchase By The Province From Brinco Limited Of All Of The Interest And Title Of That Company In And To Hydro-Electric Facilities And Water Rights In Labrador." MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, it is a great pleasure today to be able to rise to introduce the motion for this bill which is to raise a loan of $160 million Canadian to enable the province and Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation, a Crown Corporation, to purchase the shares owned by BRINCO Limited and CFLCo; (That is roughly fifty-four per cent of the shares of CFLCO.) to purchase the shares that BRINCO owns in Gull Island Power Corporation,which is a company they incorporated for the Gull Island project,which has _no assets and which has never been used,and to purchase all the remaining hydro-electricity development rights that BRINCO owns in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and all plans, studies, reports and information that BRINCO has assembled in connection with these various hydro resources in Labrador.

Mr. Chairman, there are two bills, the one that we are dealing with now,number 82,provides for the raising of money by NIBC for this purpose. The loan of $160 million Canadian or its equivalent in other currency is to be guaranteed by the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. It will be a loan to Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation,from the Bank of Nova Scotia, guaranteed with respect to payment of principal and interest by the province and therefore an indirect obligation of the province. 6834

June 6, 1974 Tape No, 1713 NM - 7 AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, CROSBIE: An indirect obligation of the province. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to be interrupted,in particulars since we are dealing with something serious and of some moment. The jester, tn & 1 0 01 opposit e might well keep his comments until he has a chance to speak himself. Mr. Chairman, I am in no mood to suffer honourable gentlemen opposite. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please'. MB., CROSBIE: I have to sit down already. MR.

CHAIRMAN: My remarks are directed to honourable members to my right, particularly the honourable member for Bell Island who knows the rule, The rule is that the member who has the floor has the right to be heard in silence, I suggest that at this reconvened session of the House that that rule be observed far more assiduously than it was previously. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, you know the honourable gentleman opposite is like a little mouse running around your house; you hear these little scratchings. He is mumbling away over there. He will have his chance to speak.

His nonsense will pour out upon this House and upon the public later on today or tomorrow or during the summer. We hear the honourable gentleman on in the afternoons and the evening, the mornings, livery time you tum on your radio, his little voice is ranting and raving upon the airways, At least he can give me the courtesy of a few moments to speak on a matter of some moment to the province. MR. BARRY: More like a cockroach than a mouse. MR. CROSBIE: More like a cockroach,the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy suggests. I would not agree with him there.

I do not think the honourable gentleman is like a cockroach: hP. is more like a beetle. Now, Mr. Chairman, these pleasantries aside, it is a loan of $160 million Canadian, an indirect obligation of the Government of Newfoundland, a loan to NIBC,which has assets and liabilities of its own, guaranteed by the province; an indirect obligation to purchase shares of CFLCo, a subsisting corporation with substantial assets and liabilities and which investment or which assetswill return income to the province and 6835

June 6, 1974 Tape No. 1713 NM - 8 which will be self-sustaining,we believe,over a period of years and which is in no way similar to a direct loan-or borrowing by the province for purchases of public expenditure on highways, schools or of the like, a different category altogether, and looked upon by the the finaneial markets as that. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this loan is necessary and this legislation is necessary and these moves have been made necessary by the fact that in 1953 certain rights were granted to BRINCO Limited,in Labrador, to develop water power and hydro resources in that area by the then Government of Newfoundland,which rights were exercised with respect to the Upper Churchill River. AN HON. MEMBER: We do not have a quorum in the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ring the bells. Order please!

I ask all honourable members to remember that while debate is being adjourned for a short time while the quorum is being considered, this does not allow honourable members to wander around the Chamber and speak in a manner which is unparliamentary. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN: I suggest to the honourable member who is speaking as he casually sits by the doorway; if the honourable member wish to appeal the Chair's ruling,that is his right. MR. NEARY: It is too foolish to appeal. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable 6836

June 6, 1974 Tape 1714 (Afternoon) PK - 1 member's lack of concern for the Chair is noted. I am attempting to bring to the committee and to anyone else who might be interested the fact that while the committee is adjourning temporarily to ascertain whether or not there can be a quorum,that the ordinary rules of courtesy and parliamentary practice apply. Obviously the honourable ember wishes to abuse me. We have a quorum. The Hon. Minister of Finance. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, as I was saying,the bill is made necessary by the fact that certain hydro development rights were given the BRINCO Company in 1953.by legislation passed by this Committee and by the government of the day, which they exercised in 1966 or 1967 by the development of the Upper Churchill project , and which rights remain vested in BRINCO with respect to the rest of the hydro resources of Labrador until 1983. They have not any option to develop any of the other water resources of Labrador up to the period of 1983. Now, Mr.

Chairman, why was it necessary for the province to acquire the shares of CFLCO and the other rights being acquired including the remaining rights in Labrador~ It was necessary for the province to do that, Mr. Chairman, because it is very obvious that any province or government today that does not control its own resources is a government that is sadly neglected its duty to the people and to the province.

It is the conviction of this government that particularly with respect to electric energy, the generation of electric energy and the potential generation of electric energy must be within the control of the government of this province,to be exercised on behalf of the people of this province and in a manner that is calculated to best suit the public interest of the people of this province. There is no province in Canada, Mr. Chairman, with the possible exception of Alberta,which does not control the generation and most of the distribution of power publicly. The one possible exception is Alberta.

Where Calgary power still exists,it is a major distributor of electrical energy. But then Alberta electric energy is a minor source of energy compared to gas and oil. Certainly in the fields of natural gas and oil the Province of Alberta is taking steps to ensure that they control them. 6837

June 6, 1974 Tape 1714 (Afternoon) Alberta is taking steps to ensure that they control what happens to those energy sources that come from their own province. PK - 2 Every other province has taken over the public control of the generation of electrical energy and it was certainly needed and necessary for this province to do the same. If it were not clear before, Mr. Chairman, it was certainly made clear that this should be the case,by the energy crisis that is now evident to everyone and which has become evident in the last two years..

The course of events that made this sten appear to this government obviously necessary, of power on the Lower Churchill River. was the possible development This government, Mr. Chaiman, from January of 1972 to the end of June 1973,negotiated with BRINCO,who had acquired these rights for the develonment of the Lower Churchill River, the power resource of the Lower Churchill River,in a way that would give to this province some substantial benefit. We had to go hy the results of our investigation on what had occurred on the Unper Churchill, of what was the result of the agreement entered into on the Upper Churchill.

It was our conclusion that Newfoundland stood to gain very little from the development of the hydro resources of the Upper Churchill River that that resource was developed substantially for the benefit of the Province of Quebec,which is to acquire the power at a very low cost and to acquire it for a sixty-five year period.

All that Newfoundland had gained from the development of the Upper Churchill was some thousands of jobs during the construction period, that all we would get in the long run would be at the most several hundred jobs permanently in the Churchill Falls Area and that the revenue that this province was to get from the Unper Churchill was minute compared to the economic benefit to the Province of Quebec. The figures show that our total revenue from the Upper Churchill project,taken on the average over the sixty-five years,is $12 million a year. That is the horsepower royalty of fifty cents per horsepower.

The rental,of eight per cent of the gross income of the CFL.CO company~ and our share of the provincial corporation tax and so on will amount at 6838

June 6, 1974 Tape 1714 (Afternoon) PK - 3 best to some $12 million a year over the sixty-five years of that power contract. For the first few years it will not be that much and for a few years it will be in the neighbourhood of $15 million but the average is $12 million a year. That this tremdenous resource has been developed primarily - MR. ALYWARD: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister of Finance woulcl mind repeating those figures,how they are made up,the three headings, how that $12 million is divided up. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. AL YWARD : No I did not miss the point.

He said fifty cents for horsepower and he is going on to the other taxes that were - MR. CROSBIE: Well there are three main sources of revenue from the Upper Churchill Development that come to the province; (1) the horsepower rental of fifty cents per horsepower, for the horsepower developed up there. That should come to $2.6 million a year by 1977. Then there is a rental of eight per cent of the pre-tax income of the company and that was estimated to come to $3.6 million in the highest year.

Then there is a normal corporation income tax which includes a provincial share of the corporation tax,with one-half of the federal corporation tax remitted to the province _but half of that then remitted to the compary. There will be no payment of the corooration income tax until 1978 because of the capital cost allowance. The figure show that the income in royalties and rentals and income taxes would average about $12 million a year for Newfoundland and the Upper Churchill. It would start out at about $5.* million a year.

It would rise to about $15.5 million by the year 2000, anrl that over the whole sixty-five year period we would receive $532.1 million, which averages about $12 million a year. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: I am quoting my own

article which was published in the "Evening Telegram" and which is therefore accurate. I will guarantee its accuracy. AN HON. MEMBER: Ir,audible. 6839

June 6, 1974 Tape 1714 (Afternoon) PK - 4 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to deal with irrelevancies. I have nothing to do with that deal whatsoever as did anyone in the Cabinet of the Government of Newfoundland at anytime with the exception of Mr. Smallwood. AN HON. MEMBER: Did they vote against 1t in the House? MR. CROSBIE: I am not interested who is responsible for it. I am giving the background of it. Who is responsible for it? Mr. Smallwood was responsible for it. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CROSBIE: He voted for it,buddy.but he did not resign,did he?

I was not in the cabinet when the deal was entered into, He was in the Cabinet. He was in the House. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to continue uninterruoted.

I do not care who entered into the deal, I am now explaining that the deal on the Upper Churchill was one of absolutely abysmal benefit to this province that all we were going to get out of it is $12 million a year on the average in revenue: that all we got out of it was some thousands of jobs during the contruction period, that there was little permanent employment; that the Province of Quebec is going to gain an economy benefit of well in excess of several billions of dollars over the life of this contract, probably averaging at least $100 million a year in the difference between what they will pay for that power over sixty-five years and what they can sell that power for in their own province.

So it was a deal to the tremendous advantage of the Province of Quebec. It was of some advantage to BRINCO but to no advantage or very little advantage to this province. Now the hydro contract entered into on the Upper Churchill, Mr. Chairman, provides f·or a sixty-five year sale of the power to Quebec Hydro. F~r the first thirty years the sale price is about three mils per kilowatt hour.

We are not sure of the exact price yet because until the construction is completed one hundred per cent and the capital cost known one hundred per cent, you cannot know the exact price but it is about three mils per kilowatt hour at the border and then after, I think it is forty years at about three mils,the price will actually drop in 6840

June 6, 1974 Tape 1714 (Afternoon) PK - 5 forty years time to two and a-half mils per kilowatt hour for the next - let us see; it drops to two and a-half mils for the next ten years and then for the final ten years it drops to about two mils. That is thirty and is forty No, for the final twenty-five years it drops to about two mils. So the price of the power for the first forty years is about three mils, ten years after - I am sorry,for the first thirty years it is three mils, for ten years after that it is two and a-half mils and for the last twenty-five years it is two mils per kilowatt hour.

So it is over ninety per cent of the power to be sold outside of the province at these tremendously favourably prices,to Quebec Hydro, with no escalation clause in the contract whatsoever, The benefits of that to the Province of Quebec are obvious because today the cost of competing power is at least eight to ten mils per kilowatt hour. In five years time the cost of competing power is likely to be fourteen or fifteer or twenty mils.

In twenty years time the cost of competing power may be twenty or thirty mils per kilowatt hour,but all during that period Quebec will be buying power from the Upper Churchill at three mils, two and a-half mils and two mils;to its tremendous economy advantage because it keeps the difference between the cost it pays for the power, the cost of transmitting it to the industrial sites in Quebec and the cost at which it sells it. Now that is the experience that we have seen in connection with the Upper Churchill.

Whether that agreement was due or not due to stupidity, whether a better deal could be entered into at the time, whether in 1960 or 1962 or 1965 or 1966 or 1967 there should have been other things done, I personally think that even at that time had everyone concerned known the facts there would not have been such a deal entered into;but everybody concerned in those days did not know the facts.

The whole situation got obscured in the desire to start the Upper Churchill, get construction of the Upper Churchill going,with the people mainly concerned forgetting what were the effects of the deal they were entering into. But in any event,the energy crisis was not evident then and the value of energy not as apparent then as it is today. 6841

June 6, 1974 Tape 1714 (Afternoon) PK - 6 But certainly, Mr. Chairman, we know today what the value of hydro electrical energy is and what the value of oil and gas and the rest of it is and how important it is to our civilization. So for any government today to enter into a contract that would even come anywhere near the contract entered into on the Upper Churchill,that government of course would be a government that should be drummed out of office, kicked, dragooned.

They should be put up against a wall and gunned down if they gave away the resources of the province in such a shocking contract,with what we know today. This government, Mr. Chairman, from the start,was not going to enter into any contract that was anywhere close to being as favourable to Hydro Quehec or anyone else outside of this province as the Upper Churchill contract. So we had the experience of the Upper Churchill to go by. As we see it, I think this is agreed by the government, there are two broad chances for Newfoundland to achieve any Rubstantial economic . growth or any substantial economic wealth.

They are both connected with energy. One is for us to develop the power of the Lower Churchill and to use it in Newfoundland and in Labrador for the benefit of our province, to development energy in our own province, to develop business in our own province, to enable reasonable cost of electricity to be used by people in their homes in this province , both in Newfoundland and Labrador. That is one of the great chances that we have if we can get the Gull Island power here,one million and ei~ht hundred thousand horsepower or fourteen hundred and fifty megawatts.

That is one opportunity which we_ have and if we do not get it, if we do not get it~this province faces stalemate, this nrovince will not be able to grow, will not be able to grow industrially, The costly power from other sources,from steam or from coal, from oil, from nuclear,is not an alternative for us or it will be a very expensive alternative. So Gull power is one chance this province has to make a breakthrough and not by giving it away to any aluminum companies, not by giving it away to any large users, not by giving it away to an ERCO. We are not interested in future ERCOs.

ERCO has cost the people of this province enough. We have learned by that mistake too, the mistake of the 6842

June 6, 1974 Tape 1714 (Afternoon) PK-7 previous administration. This even the previous administration would now, they have admitted. I heard Mr. Smallwood himself admit it had been a major mistake. We are not interested in getting this power to give it to an ERCO, so that the people of this province have to pay millions every year to subsidize the difference in cost. We want this power to be sold at a cost at least that recovers all the costs and it be not subsidized. We are not even interested in getting this power just to give it to an aluminum company.

We are interested in getting this power so that this province will survive. AN HON. MEMBER: Light up our Christmas tree. MR. CROSBIE: Economically. The honourable gentleman probably does not have a Christmas tree, the poor unfortunate! That is one great chance this pr·ovince has. The other great chance we have, Mr. Chairman, is the discovery of offshore oil and gas that comes within our jurisdiction and our control; another energy source. We have two great chances for the utilization of energy and the control of it. (1) the hydro at Gull Island and the rest of the Labrador sources and (2) offshore oil and gas.

Offshore oil and gas is a different subject today that I do not need to go into in any depth. But these are two things that will put this province on a footing if we can get them and if they are within our control. If they are feasible that will allow this province to be self-sustaining in the future, in the next eight or ten years. Without these two we are not going to be self­ sustaining we are going to continue to be a colonial dependency of Ottawa'a, receiving tax equalization and a few dollars in DREE and a few LIP grants and a few more handouts from Ottawa.

So as we see it, I am pretty sure that this is the philosophy of the Premier and all the rest of us, if they disagree I am sure they will say so now. As we see it, these are the two great chances this province has got. Now where did BRINCO come within that? Well I hope to go briefly into what our negotiations led us to conclude about what BRINCO would do had we not taken the action we have taken. I 111D quite firmly 6843

June 6, 1974 Tape 1714 (Afternoon) convinced that it would never have been possible. We do not know whether it is possible for sure now to get Gull Island power here. PK - 8 We are waiting on the federal government to find that out but 1-1e would have no chance to get Gull Island power developed and brou~ht to Newfoundland were BRINCO left in the picture. I am absolutely convinced of that. BRINCO is a private company. It operates for the benefit of its shareholders.

The obvious course of action that BRINCO wanted taken was for Gull Island power to be developed and sold to Quebec Hydro in accordance with the pattern on the Upper Churchill which has been done before and which would be much easier to finance and a much easier job for them to handle and a much more feasible thing for them to carry out as a private company and to raise the necessary money. That is what BRINCO wanted to do with the Lower Churchill power. We have had the right to recall some of that power the s8Jlle as on the Upper Churchill.

The right to recall power on the Upper Churchill was not very satisfactory, as I will mention in a moment,but we could have the right to recall certain blocks of power. This is what BRINCO wanted to do. That is what BRINCO would do today if they had the choice, if they were still left thete to do it. BRINCO naturally does not want to be taking chances to help develop the Province of Newfoundland. BRINCO has its shareholders and so on to consider. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: With BRINCO in the picture there would be no chance whatsoever of Gull Island power being developed and brought to the Province of Newfoundland. But originally, Mr. Chairman, well just to give several other reasons why it was necessary for Newfoundland to acquire control over our own hydro energy resources: BRINCO, Mr. Chairman. in the hydro,owning Churchill Falls ~was in our way. They were between us and the Quebec Government. This private 6844

June 6, 1974 Tape 1714 (Afternoon) PK - 9 company, BRINco.wali between ua and the Quebec Government whenever we discussed hydro resources or Labrador resources. They were between us and. the Government of Canada when we wanted to discuss anything with the Government of Canada. It is no place for a private company today t-0 be a major generator of electric power, it is tea important to the people of the country concerned for it to be anything other than publicly owned, So, Mr. Chairman, what I want to do is just as briefly as I can outline 6845

June 6, 1974 Tape 1715 some of the course of our neogitations with BRINCO and bring us up to date,where we are today. The Mi.nister of Mines and Energy is going to speak in detail of what the present situation is with respect to Gull Island. The Premier will be speaking. I Just want now briefly to bring us up to date on what happened since we came into power in January, 1972,in connection with this question. As soon as we got into power, Mr. Chairman, I was the minister responsible then for the Power Commission I IB-1 asked Mr.

Hobbs to report; Sir. (George Hobbs was then the chairman.) on what the situation was on the Lower Churchill and what the situation was with respect to the recall of power on the Upper Churchill,because the Iron Ore Collll)any of Canada needed some power to be recalled on the Upper Churchill. Mr. Robbs reported on February 24, 1972,what some of the issues were on the Upper Churchill recalled power. One of the things we discovered was that although the leader of the previous administration had said that we would get recalled power at a price of two--and--a -half mils per kilowatt-hour, that was not the case.

Under the trust he had entered into,by the Churchill Falls Company,with the bond holders,we had to pay for the power recalled so that they would get a return equivalent to the return that they would get if they sold the power to Quebec Hydro. The result of that, Mr. Chairman, was that it would cost more for us to sell power, say to the Iron Ore Company of I.ah rador City and our own Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation than it would cnst the Iron Ore Company,if they were over at Seven Islands~buying power from Quebec Hydro.

The power that we could recall on the Upper Churchill.under this arrangement and under the price that BRINCO said they had to get to observe the trust deed, would result in a higher selling price to a consumer in Newfoundland and Labrador than it would to a consumer in Quebec. That was the clause entered into on the Upper Churchill. The people of Newfoundland and the government of Newfotmdland were not protected in any way whatsoever in connection with the l1pper 6846

June 6. 1974 Tape 1715 IB-2 Churchill. There was no agreement in writing covering the clauses for recalled power and the rest of it. nothing. It was a shambles. It took quite a while to find out what the true situation was. Mr. Chairman, we did not even have a copy here of the Quebec Hydro Po1,1er Contract when we got into office. We had to get after BRINr.O to supply us with a copy of the contract entered into by Quebec Hydro with BRINCO. A>I Ji()NCHJPABLE ME1'BEP.: Inaudible. 'fl'.~P.OSBIE:.. )lo. The R.C.M.P! We needed a magician to find it. I sunposc there never had been one here.

I do Pot ~now if there had or there had not. But there was not in the permanent files of the government of Newfoundland, the Quebec Hydro Contract, not even in the builcli ng. The Power Commission had no copies of it. AN Jl()J'!OT!PABLF. '1-w.MBF.R: Did the ~inister of Labrador Affairs have one then? ~- C.ROSllIE: It was fantastic. I do not know whether the then Minister of Labrador Affairs had one. In any event, on February 2 5, 19 72, 1-(r.

Mulholland of BRINCO came down with other people to see us about recalled power and suggesting a price of 3.9 mils,I think it was,for recalled power, for the power that we recalled to sell in Labrador; 3.9 mils per kilowatt-hour. AN HONOURABLE l'IEMBER: 300 megawatts of power. MR. CROSBIE: Yes. Part of the recalled power. The Gull Island project was also discussed. They had with them a lease which they wished us to execute on the Lower Churchill. which was a lease similar in tenns to their lease on the Upper Churchill.

In other words, if we entered into this lease with them on the Lower Churchill, they would pay no sales tax under construction, they would pay no gasoline tax under construction. We would promise them there would be no tax increases for the life of the project. When we got a rebate from Ottawa of 95 per cent of the federal corporation tax, we would rebate forty-seven and a-half per cent to them. We would have no authority to agree or disagree to any power contract they entered into. 6847

J1me 6, 1974 Tape 1715 IB-3 We would not have the right to veto the power contract. We would have no say over what price they sold the power to Quebec Hydro for and so on. A document exactly as their lease was on the Upper Churchill, which they wanted the government to sign. Now, luckly, Mr. Chairman, they had not gotten that Lower Churchill lease signed by the previous administration. Thank Heavens! Good! I am glad somebody over there refused. Well, somebody must have refused. Anyway, it was not si~ed. It was not signed but they came in on February 25 and tried to have us sign it.

Well, we certainly did not sign that document, Mr. Chairman. It is a very good thing we did not. Subsequently, looking into the matter, there were a whole host of questions arose on equalization and they were discussed in this Rouse and described in June of 1972. Some of those equalization questions were afterwards resolved. For example, over ninety-five per cent of the federal corporation tax that would be rebated by the federal government to Newfoundland, we would lose a dollar equalization for every dollar of that tax. Then the previous administration had agreed to pay half that tax over to CFLCo.

So, the result would be we would lose a hundred per cent of the equalization. When we pay fifty per cent to BRINCO,we are going to lose the fifty per cent we paid BRINCO of that tax. So, for every dollar we receive from the federal government in rebate of that tax,we are going to lose $1.50. There are crazy kinds of anomalies like that which were afterwards resolved insofar as they related to equalization. There are changes that Ottawa agreed to make in the equalization formula that applied to that. Well, that was discussed in the House,in June of 1972.

We looked into our legal position on the Lower Churchill and the legal position was that they had an option on all the hydro s·ources there until 1983. That we could do nothing about except by agreement. Now later in that year, in June of 1972, there was the ribbon cutting at Churchill Falls. On August 11, 1972,the Premier appointed me as chairman of a committee to deal rlth this matter with the Minister of 6848

June 6, 1974 Tape 1715 IB-4 Industrial Development and later the ~inister of Minister of Mines and Energy,when he was appointed,and the Minister of ~lanpower and Industrial Relations,when he joined the cabinet and he joined the committee from a Labrador District. We asked Mr. George Hobbs, Mr. Cyril Abery of the Power Commission, fiscal policY, and Mr. Peter Poder also in that division; Mr. Wally Reid and Mr.

Wilf Garland of the Power Commission to study this whole question for us and to suggest to us what our position should be on the recapture of power on the Upper Churchill and what our position should be on the development of the Lower Churchill so we could be properly prepared and briefed for the negotiations with the BRINCO Company. These are very able. I should say here right now that the five people I have just mentioned are very, very able public servants. We are very lucky ha~ing them. Mr. George Hobbs is now retired. Mr. Wally Reid is chairman now of the Power Co11DUission. Wilf Garland is the treasurer.

Cyril Abery and Peter Poder are bot~ economists working on the fiscal policy. Mr. Abery is now chairman of the Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariate and looks after fiscal policy also. AN HONOURA!LE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, and these are all people who have been, I believe, in the previous administration. These are five of the better public servants we have got in this province. We asked them to prepare a position for us and on September 19 they reported to us what they advised our position should be,and examined the economics of it all. On September 28 there was a meeting held with BRINCO.

It was really an exploratory meeting,on September 28, 1972,in which they gave us a lot of information on what the construction costs would be, how they would finance it,and we gave them some preliminary views of ours and exchanged information. Their cal~ulations were based on the supposition that they would have the same terms on the Lower Churchill as they had on the Upper Churchill. So, it was largely an explanation,giving us infonnation 6849

June 6, 1974 Tape 1715 IB-5 on what it would cost, how they hoped to finance it and what, perhaps, price could be expected to be paid by Quebec Hydro. So, at this stage, Mr. Chait111an, it was still a question of how large. One of the big questions was how large a pie would there be to share if this power were sold to Quebec Hydro. When we were trying to decide what we should get from BINCO for this power, it is a question of how much really would Quebec Hydro pay for it because that would determine how large the pie would be to divide up between ourselves as the owner of the resource and BRINCO.

After that meeting there was certain other information that we needed from them on cash-flow projections ancl the like 7 which they sent down to us in November. We needed further information l ne asked for it in December. On January 11, 1973,the committee had a meeting with Mr. Harry MacDonnell and other financiers and other people of BRINCO in which we discussed under what terms we thought the Lower Churchill should be proceeded with. At this stage, Mr. Chairman, we were still considering just the going ahead with the Lower Churchill but asswnin!( that the ·power would have to be sold to Quebec.

Our determination then was that if it were going to be sold to Quebec, it wou]d have to be at a darn good price that would give the people of Newfoundland a decent return for the resource. It was as a result of that meeting that I wrote Harry McDonald, the president of CFLCo.on January 12, 1973,and outlined our position, that if the Lower Churchill went ahead what conditions we thought should apply. Among those were these, the general principles. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

CROSRIE: I can let the honourable gentleman have a copy if he should want one or I can even table it I suppose if he should want it tabled. ~That licensing would be limited to the Gull Island site. The term of the lease would not exceed fifty years. That on thirty­ six months notice, blocks of energy would have to be recaptured up to 300 megawatts. That there would be constructed as a part of capital cost a transmission line from Gull Island to Happy Valley, Goose Bay area.• The honourable member for Labrador North - I have heard him up 6850

June 6, 1974 Tape 1715 IB-6 shouting that we do not hear about Labrador, do not hear about getting power for Labrador. BRINCO had no intention, Mr. Chairman, of delivering power to the Goose Bay area from Gull Island which is only some ninety miles away or less. But we said to them,"It is a condition of your doing Gull Island, that you must build a transmission line from Gull Island to Happy Valley, Goose Bay area so that hydro power would be available there." They did not agree to it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: But they agreed to it, did they not? MR.

CROSBIE: No, they did not agree to do it, Jld Boy Wait, I will come to that. This was one of the conditions that they did not meet, that they did not agree to do. "That there would be no exemption from provincial sales tax nor from the gasoline tax in the construction." We, of the province, would have received $50 million at least on the Upper Churchill in S.S.A. tax and gasoline tax had it not been exempt from those taxes. The result of the exemption was only to give Quebec Hydro cheaper power than they would otherwise have had.

The result of every concession we gave BRINCO on the Upper Churchill was to make the power cheaper for Quebec Hydro. I think the estimate was something like $32 million we would receive in sales tax and gasoline tax on the Lower Churchill. We said that in no way would they be exempt. "There would be no rebate of incon,e tax made to the developer by the province. We would not rebate to them half or any part of the federal income corporation tax on public utilities return to us.

"That we should have at no financial cost one third of the equity in the project; that we would take one third of the equity rather than have an eight per cent of the gross or a fifty cents or horsepower charge." Then, we have a third of the equity without putting any cash in because that will be better for us than having these fixed amounts. What is the point, Mr. Chairman, in having a horsepower rental of fifty cents a horsepower when we know, that as a result of inflation, fifty cents today is probably worth five cents in ten years time? Fifty 6851

J\Dle 6, 1974 Tape 1715 IB-7 cents a horsepower agreed to in 1953 by Mr. Smallwood, fifty cents in 1967 today is probably worth twenty~five cents. In ten years time it will be worth five. Eight per cent of the gross is of a different category because the gross might increase. The main way to get some substantial revenue that would not be done away with by inflation would be by having a substantial part of the equity. 'We told them one-third of the equity and that we would not have to make any contribution to receive that.

We said, ''We would have to approve their power contracts entered into vith Quebec Hydro with reference to the sale of the hydro power. We would have to have a representative in on the negotiations. That there would have to be successful conclusion of the negotiations on the recalled price of the 300 megawatts from the Upper Churchill. That the Power Conmission would be the agent for the distribution and sale of power in Labrador," and various other conditions that are contained in that letter. "That the province should be represented on the Board of Directors.

That there shoul~ be a transmission line between the Upper Churchill and the Lower Churchill. That the port of Goose Bay should be used as the port for the project. The preference with respect to employment, awarding the contracts, purchasing materials, be given the Newfoundland residents." These were our conditions. I have an extra copy, Mr. Chairman, so that one there can be tabled,if the honourable gentleman were interested. So, at that meeting then in January of 1973 we discussed all these matters with Mr. MacDonnell and their other representatives.

On January 12, I wrote them so that they would have a record of the meeting. We met again on February l,in St. John's,and discussed the whole situation. Again they di~ not feel the project could be done under those terms and suggested that we both see Quebec Hydro. They wrote later and said what terms they thought could not - they said it was essential that they should have the tax rebates,and various certain other terms that they felt the project coul