British Columbia Hansard — Wednesday, October 26, 2005

H1026pm-07

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Wednesday, October 26, 2005 Afternoon Sitting Volume 3, Number 7 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Iona V. Campagnolo, CM, OBC FIRST SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations .......................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation .......................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ..........................................................................................................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining............................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Bill Bennett Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services .......................................................................................................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General................................................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Deregulation ...................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sports and the Arts........................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole.................................................................................................................................................

Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Acting Legislative Comptroller..................................................................................................................................................Brent Cunningham

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)...................................................................................Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP)....................................................................... Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon. Pat (L) ..................................................................Prince George North Bennett, Hon.

Bill (L) .....................................................................East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ..................................................................Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).......................................... Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)..........................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) ..............................................

Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)................................................................... Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ......................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, Dave (NDP).................................................Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon.

Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ............................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) .............................................................................North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)................................................................. Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) ..............................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP)......................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) ............................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ....................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...................................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...................................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP)............................................................................ Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) .................................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)................................................................... Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)...........................................................

Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)................................................................ Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)....................................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP)............................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) .................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)..............................................................................

Nanaimo Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................ Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)....................................................................

Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP)......................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)......................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L)...................................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) ....................................................... Peace River North Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon.

Wally, QC (L)............................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)................................................................ Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ......................................................................................... Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)........................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...................................................................Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon.

Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) .....................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP).......................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ..............................................................Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP)..............................................

Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ........................................ Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP).......................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ......................................................... Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon. Carole (L)..........................................................

Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) ......................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) .......................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L).............................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) ......................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)........................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ...............................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................. Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North....................................................................................Bob Simpson Cariboo South................................................................................... Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ....................................................................... Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ........................................................................... Hon.

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke ......................................................Norm Macdonald Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville................................................................... Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................................Doug Routley Delta North........................................................................................

Guy Gentner Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay ............................................................................Hon. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin ............................................................. Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson..........................................................

Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .......................................................................Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ............................................................................Sindi Hawkins Langley................................................................................................

Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca........................................................................John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...........................................................Michael Sather Nanaimo ...........................................................................................Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville..........................................................................

Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston.................................................................................. Corky Evans New Westminster ........................................................................Chuck Puchmayr North Coast .........................................................................................Gary Coons North Island.................................................................................... Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale ....................................................

Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................. Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head.................................................................Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon ..............................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain................................................. Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood .........................................................................Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast.....................................................Nicholas Simons Prince George North .........................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .....................................................................John Rustad Richmond Centre .......................................................................... Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ............................................................................... John Yap Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon.

Murray Coell Saanich South..............................................................................David Cubberley Shuswap ................................................................................ Hon. George Abbott Skeena ...............................................................................................Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................

Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton ....................................................................................Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge...................................................................... Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ............................................................................... Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock..........................................................................

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.................................................................. Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings...................................................................... Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington ........................................................... David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway...........................................................................

Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara.................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ........................................................................Carole James Victoria-Hillside................................................................................

Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary ............................................................ Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi............................................................. Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet ..........................................................................................Harry Lali

CONTENTS Wednesday, October 26, 2005 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................. 1225 Statements (Standing Order 25 B) .............................................................................................................................. ............. 1225 First nations footsala team D. Routley MacMillan family philanthropy V. Roddick Vesta Douglas R. Austin On-line service for mineral exploration D.

MacKay New civility in Legislature C. Evans Pandemic preparedness L. Mayencourt Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 1227 Government policy for child death reviews L. Krog Hon. S. Hagen M. Farnworth D. Thorne J. Kwan Compliance of Copeman clinic with federal and provincial legislation D. Cubberley Hon. G. Abbott K. Conroy S. Simpson Provincial health care legislation C. James Hon. G. Abbott Services for gang-involved youth J. Brar Hon. W.

Oppal Petitions...................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 1232 D. Thorne C.

Puchmayr Tabling Documents.............................................................................................................. .................................................... 1232 Labour Relations Board, annual report, 2003 Point of Privilege (Speaker's Ruling).......................................................................................... ........................................... 1232 Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 1233 Estimates: Ministry of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing (continued) B.

Simpson Hon. R. Coleman N. Simons D. Routley D. Thorne C. Wyse

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 1268 Estimates: Ministry of Transportation (continued) D. Chudnovsky Hon. K. Falcon D. Thorne G. Coons G. Robertson R. Fleming M. Karagianis J. Horgan N. Simons

1225 WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Prayers. Introductions by Members C. James: I'd like to introduce some very special guests with us in the Legislature today. As everyone on both sides of this House kn ows, when we're busy as MLAs working in the Legislature, there are people back in our communities who take care of things in our com- munities for us. Those are our constituency assistants. I'm pleased to say that our side of the Legislature has our constituency assistants here in the gallery today. I would like the House to please make them welcome. Hon. J.

Les: Today I would like to introduce to the House three gentlemen from the World Trade Univer- sity, which has recently located a campus in British Co- lumbia. The World Trade Un iversity was established under the auspices of the United Nations in response to the 1999 World Trade Organization trade talks, at which the growing gap in knowle dge and communication af- fecting economic progress globally was identified. [1405] The university now has ca mpuses in Asia, Africa and, most recently, here in British Columbia — more specifically, in the city of Chilliwack, which will be its Canadian campus.

It is an applied learning agency that focuses on providing oppo rtunities for growth and shared prosperity among all nations, especially in devel- oping countries and those with emerging economies. I would like the House to please make welcome three of its key members: its president and chief execu- tive officer, Mr. Sujit Chow dhury; the chief operating officer, Mr. Craig Young; and a member of the board, Mr. Richard Gold. Would the House please make these gentlemen welcome. R. Fleming: I rise in the House to introduce three guests who are with us today.

Betty Turko resides in my constituency, and she was also an employee of the Legislature dining room for 22 years. She's joined to- day by two friends from Scotland, Jock and Sarah Gillie. Could the House please join me in making them feel welcome. Hon. W. Oppal: I have the pleasure of introducing two friends of learned Clerk MacMinn, QC. They are from Vancouver: Audrey and Ron Castner. Please make them welcome. S. Simpson: I'm really pleased to welcome my partner Cate Jones, who is with us today.

As all mem- bers in this House will know, it's our spouses who ac- tually have some of the toughest jobs to do in terms of the work that we do. I'm really pleased to say that I have a great partner and friend in Cate, who does a fantastic job. I hope the House will make her welcome. R. Hawes: It's my pleasure today to recognize our former colleague and MLA for Columbia River– Revelstoke, Wendy McMahon, who is here to check on the behaviour of the current member for Columbia River–Revelstoke and to look over his shoulder to make sure he's doing his job. Could the House please make Wendy welcome. N.

Simons: I would just like to draw attention of the House to three young New Democrats who are visiting today: Mark Woons, Erin Sikora and Ben John- son. Will the House make them welcome. V. Roddick: In the House today are two people whose school many of the women MLAs in this House have attended. Charlene Brisson and Audrey Paterson are co-founders of the Women Campaign School of Canada. Charlene, who lives in Vancouver, runs a pub- lic relations business called Dream Team. Audrey Paterson is an active Delta constituent and volunteer whose five sons are the great-grandsons of A.D.

Patter- son, the longest-serving reeve of Delta. Would the members of the House please make them feel very wel- come. H. Bloy: It is a privilege for me to introduce a group called MADD — Mothers Against Drunk Driv- ing. They were in the precinct this morning and made a presentation to us. They're strong advocates. They had four very strong points that we'll be passing along to the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General. It's a privilege to introduce Bob Rorison, president; Helen Hoeflicker, past president; Catherine Doré; and Phillipe Doré. Would the House please make them welcome. Hon.

M. de Jong: For some time now Derek Rolstone has served the government and the people of B.C. with distinction in his capacity as a ministerial assistant. Today is his last day. I hope he knows that. [Laughter.] Suddenly I suspect the value of this piece of Han- sard for future job prospects has been reduced. [1410] But he is actually, with his wife and young daugh- ter, going to pursue other op portunities. We have been privileged to have his services as a government — and the people of British Columbia to have his services as a ministerial assistant. I hope all members will thank him and wish him well.

Statements (Standing Order 25B) FIRST NATIONS FOOTSALA TEAM D. Routley: I rise today with pleasure to speak about a group of young athletes from my community, Duncan, in my constituency of Cowichan-Ladysmith. This is a group of young first nations athletes who re- cently undertook a trek across this globe to play their favourite sport, being footsala. Footsala is a contraction

1226 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 of the words "foot" for football and "sala" for indoor. This is indoor soccer played in a North American style. The people who play this sport are incredibly talented and have incredible ball skil ls. I'm sure that any soccer player would see that and admire them for it. During this trip they t ook on teams from Poland, Germany, England, France and the Netherlands, and they came out champions of that tournament. We're all very proud of them in Cowichan-Ladysmith.

The members of this fine team are coach Bill Sey- mour, manager Fred George and players Chris Alphonse, Blake Baker, Craig George, Dwayne George, Howie George, Alec Johnnie, Chuck Seymour — a dear personal friend of mine — Keith Seymour, George Thomas, Brad Thorne and Francis Wilson. We're all very proud of their accomplishments in Cowichan-Ladysmith. MacMILLAN FAMILY PHILANTHROPY V.

Roddick: British Columbia's growth and devel- opment is due not just to the hard work of early pioneers but to the vision and investment of certain pioneer fami- lies, such as the MacMillan family which, under H.R., built MacMillan Bloedel Ltd. into one of the world's largest and most powerful forestry corporations. But there is another and often overlooked side to our pioneers, and that is their philanthropic legacy. H.R. MacMillan had two extremely talented daughters, one of whom is Jean Southam.

Together with her fa- ther's estate, she and her fa mily have contributed to and been involved with, to name a few, the Vancouver Planetarium, Vancouver Aquarium and Vancouver Opera; Salvation Army; UBC with its scholarship funds, academic programs and collections; the Mu- seum of Anthropology; the Vancouver Foundation, which was a creation of H.R.'s partner, VanDusen, and which over the last 50 years has become Canada's larg- est community foundation. The family's choices and decisions have had an enormous influence on the cultural and social devel- opment of B.C. in general and Vancouver in particular. H.R.

MacMillan was one of the first in his position to recognize that local business should contribute to the civil society in B.C. His family is continuing that phil- anthropic principle. I would ask that the House join with me today in recognizing the wonderful pi oneering spirit of British Columbia and in wishing Mrs. Gordon Jean Southam a healthy, happy 90th birthday. VESTA DOUGLAS R. Austin: I rise today to recognize the many ac- complishments of an extraordinary woman who re- sides in my riding of Skeen a, someone whose values and actions are a shining ex ample for all of us.

Vesta Douglas is a 95-year-old Terrace woman who has been very generous with her time and money and has de- voted her life to making a difference in the community of Terrace. She has given thousands of dollars to more than 30 community groups, including the Heritage Park Mu- seum, the beautification society, the child development centre, the public library, the fire department and the Dare to Dream foundation. [1415] Mrs. Douglas moved to Terrace in 1950 and taught at Uplands Elementary Scho ol and was principal there as well.

She and her late husband Doug did not have children, and they decided to spend their life savings while they were still around to see the benefits. Mrs. Douglas sat down, made a list of groups to which she would like to donate and then very quietly set about handing out cheques. "Money is only worth something when it is an action," she says. The Terrace Child Development Centre has been one of the beneficiaries of Mrs. Douglas's generosity. The CDC helps children with special needs to reach their potential through therapy, education and family support. They've been using Mrs.

Douglas's donations to purchase equipment to assist children with mobility problems. Without the Dougla s's generosity, they sim- ply would not have had the money to purchase this specialized equipment. Her money has also been used to subsidize the child development centre's preschool fees so that low-income families could access their ser- vices. The Heritage Park Museum in Terrace was the re- cipient of several thousands of dollars. They plan to use that money to finance an archaeology excavation centre.

This centre will be an educational tool for school children in grades four to seven, as it will simu- late an archaeological dig. Two years ago Vesta Doug las moved into Terrace View Lodge, now an intermediate and extended bed care facility in Terrace. Her generosity and community spirit should be an inspiration to us all. I ask that all members of this House join me in acknowledging Vesta Douglas's wonderful contributions to her community. ON-LINE SERVICE FOR MINERAL EXPLORATION D. MacKay: Early in our mandate in 2001 we made a commitment to reduce red tape to make it easier for businesses to invest in B.C.

It has paid off, particularly in the mining industry. In the northwest part of our province, exploration contin ues to climb. In 2003 they spent $21.2 million. A year later in 2004, that more than doubled to just under $60 million. As a matter of fact, without the numbers for 2005, it's expected that they will spend more money on exploration in the north- west part of our province than they spent throughout the entire province in 2001. One of the key elements has been the introduction of Mineral Titles Online , a system that has been em- braced by the mining sector.

I'm pleased to say it's been honoured for its innovation. Mineral Titles Online has just won three awards for the state-of-the-art mapping software. With their software they have brought claim acquisition and maintenance into the digital world as

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1227 of January 12, 2005, after more than three years of in- tense development . MTO was awarded the Gold Dis- tinction award at the GTEC Awards. The Environ- mental Systems Research Institute gave MTO the 2005 Award of Excellence for Innovation, and they shared the Innovative Collaboration Award for Public Service Delivery. The software developed by Mineral Titles Online helps make the mining industry in British Columbia more efficient.

It brings the claim acquisition and title maintenance system into the digital world, which can only help organizations and individuals affiliated with the industry. Our government is committed to help rebuild an industry that struggled through the '90s. We are working hard to put the industry back on track, and innovative modernizing systems like the one de- veloped by Mineral Titles Online will help bring us to a more prosperous future in the mining industry and British Columbia. NEW CIVILITY IN LEGISLATURE C. Evans: Mr.

Speaker, a couple of days ago you took pains to remind hon. members not to use these two-minute statements for partisan opportunism. So mindful of your instruction, I've decided to speak to- day on the tone of the new civility that we are attempt- ing to impose on this Legislature and, more latterly, on the estimates process. My first example of a happy outcome for my con- stituents at estimates took place in the estimates of the Minister of Agriculture, as we canvassed the problems that surround the proposed changes to the processing and sale of meat.

The minister kindly offered to have his staff and officials travel, with the Ministry of Health, to smaller producers to try to make the new regulations work for people. I thank the minister for his commit- ment, and my constituents await the visit of his officials. My second happy experience came with the Minister of Forests. The citizens of Nakusp and Slocan City have long awaited a decision on a community forest licence, and this minister committed to provide the communities with a definitive answer in two weeks. I thank that min- ister too.

My constituents await his decision. [1420] I think we're on a roll here. Tomorrow I'm going to get the opportunity to participate in the estimates of the Minister of Transportati on. We will be canvassing the future of the Needles bridge so kindly announced by the Premier and the minist er in the time of the pre- vious government. Following those estimates, I want to give another nice two-minute statement to express my appreciation to the Minister of Transportation for the long-awaited bridge. PANDEMIC PREPAREDNESS L. Mayencourt: It's a bit of a tough act to follow, Mr. Speaker.

Today I want to talk about pandemics. I know that in British Columbia, in my lifetime, we've only faced one potential pandemic, and that was the SARS virus. We in British Columbia really consider the preparation for a pandemic to be very, very important. Our gov- ernment has put $11 million into making sure that Brit- ish Columbia is ready. We're doing that by making sure we stock up on the antivirals that will help us in the event that avian flu makes it from a bird over to a human being and then somehow, maybe in the course of one flight from Europe, reaches our shores.

Right now we are working as a province to build capacity for cooperation and for communication net- works with our federal, provincial and international partners. As we did in the Y2K situation, where we thought the world might stop when the clock turned to 2000, we're working with businesses, Crown corpora- tions and many others that are going to be valuable in the event of a pandemic hitting British Columbia. In 2003 we were introduced to the SARS virus.

I can remember with great pride when our life sciences community mapped the gene that contained the SARS virus, and we were able to create a vaccine against that. Today our nervous world faces the possibility of avian flu transferring to human beings. If that were to hap- pen, we would have a pandemic. I think we should encourage — this House should encourage — the life sciences community in British Columbia to undertake an effort, starting right now, to map the gene that allows avian flu to transfer itself from bird to human. I believe we can do that. We can show leadership, and we can do a great job of it.

Oral Questions GOVERNMENT POLICY FOR CHILD DEATH REVIEWS L. Krog: Yesterday the opposition asked the Attor- ney General a question conc erning Harvey Charlie and his request that the ongoing review into his grand- daughter's death also examined the decision to leave his three-year-old grandson in the very same home for five months following his si ster's death. The Attorney General did not answer the question about expanding the review, but he did say: "During the course of the time the child was living there, the matter was still under investigation.

The police were investigating at that time, and for that reason the child was there." Can the Attorney General explain what possible reason there is to keep a child in the home of a sus- pected killer? Hon. S. Hagen: Over the last month the members opposite have raised some relevant questions regard- ing this issue. Presently we have multiple processes underway to get to the bottom of what happened. One of those processes is the re view by the child and youth officer, who wrote a letter yesterday to a lawyer in Vic- toria. I want to read a couple of sentences from the let- ter.

She says — and she is the independent child and y o u t h o f f i c e r : " I h a v e c h o s e n t o d o a m o r e w i d e - ranging special report under

section 8 of the Office for

1228 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 Children and Youth Act on the broader issues. All of these systemic issues relate to the brother as well. In addition, the coroner's child death review process will look at the circumstances of the brother immediately after the death of the young child." Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. [1425] L. Krog: It's clear that yesterday the Attorney Gen- eral implied that the investigation was somehow re- lated to the police investigation and that that was the reason. We've had an answer today, but not an answer one would have expected.

S o I w i s h t o s i m p l y a s k t h e M i n i s t e r o f C h i l d r e n and Family Development: under what circumstances does the minister feel it is appropriate to keep a child in the home of a man who is suspected of killing that very child's own sister? Hon. S. Hagen: You know what? We know on this side of the House what was in the severed report. I assume that's what the members on the other side know as well. As I said earlier, we ha ve several processes under- way — the review of the specif ic case by the child and youth officer.

We have a re view by the coroner, we have a review by the Ombudsman, and we will have a review by a blue-ribbon panel soon to be announced. Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supple- mental. L. Krog: I appreciate the gravity of this issue. I ap- preciate the minister respon ding, but I want an answer to the simple question: in general terms, does he think it appropriate that a child be kept in the same home as a suspected murderer for five months? Why would a police investigation have any bearing on that whatso- ever? Hon. S. Hagen: Indeed, this is a serious issue.

That's why we are taking the steps that we are taking to get to the bottom of the issue. We're not afraid of asking the tough questions, because we want to make s u r e t h a t w e h a v e t h e b e s t s y s t e m i n p l a c e t o p r o t e c t children in British Columbia. That's what we want to achieve by the process that we're in. I would ask the members opposite to respect that process. M. Farnworth: Yesterday the Attorney General admitted that the Ministry of Children and Family De- velopment left a child in a dangerous home because of the police investigation.

My question is to the Minister of Children and Family Development. Does he stand by that decision to leave the brother of the victim in the home of his sister's killer for five months? Hon. S. Hagen: As I've said several times now, we have processes in place. As a matter of fact, my critic, the member from the opposite side, is part of one of those reviews working with the child and youth offi- cer. We do want to get to the bottom of this to see what happened. We will await the results of the reviews. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M. Farnworth: The minister has not answered the question.

It's an importan t answer, because yesterday the Attorney General said one thing. The minister who's charged with the safety of children has not an- swered that question, which leaves us wondering: who is in charge there of the safe ty of children? Is it the At- torney General's ministry, because he was saying yes- terday that there was a police investigation? Or is it the Minister of Children and Family Development, whose decision should be to ensure that the safety of the child is paramount at all times, regardless of an investiga- tion? Hon. S.

Hagen: Indeed, the Ministry of Children and Family Development is responsible for these chil- dren. But let me remind the member opposite — be- cause I know he's aware of this — that we now have two lawsuits involved in this particular case, which restricts me from answering any questions with regard to the specifics of the case. D. Thorne: Mr. Speaker, the answers coming from this government are very worrisome. No one seems to know why a three-year-old boy was left in the home of a suspected killer. That is the information that Harvey Charlie is looking for.

Why is the Attorney General refusing to expand the child and youth officer's inves- tigation to include a specific examination of why the brother was left in this home for so long? Hon. S. Hagen: As I have said repeatedly, there are now two lawsuits involved in this particular case. That prevents me from speaking to these particular cases, and I'm sure the members know that. [1430] I also want to read the statements in the letter from the independent child and youth officer who has, on her own, decided to choose to do a more wide-ranging special report under

section 8 of the Office for Children and Youth Act. Together with that, the coroner's child death review process will look at the circumstances involving the brother immediately after the death of the young child. J. Kwan: The Attorney General and the minister should know that the systemic review will not examine the specific experience of Harvey Charlie's grandson. Mr. Charlie has a specific concern. He wants to know why the government left his grandson in the home of a suspected killer fo r five months. To date, he has not received any specific answer, any specific con- firmation that that will happen.

There are several overlapping reviews going on right now. Are any of them specifically tasked with

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1229 finding out why the brother was left in the home of a suspected killer for five months? Hon. S. Hagen: The member who just posed that question is an experienced member of this House and knows — or should know — that first of all, the coro- ner is reviewing the child's death and has said that he will review the circumstances involving the brother immediately after the death. What I'm asking the members opposite for is to do what your leader has said you want to do, and that is to do the right thing.

We await these reviews to be completed, and then the go vernment will address the results of those reviews. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. J. Kwan: The coroner's office is doing a review. Jane Morley is doing a review. The Ombudsman's office is doing a review. There is a special panel that is doing a review. But none of them have said that they will spe- cifically examine the question of why the brother was left in this home. The question that the go vernment needs to answer is to ensure that the family of the children involved gets satisfaction.

We just received correspondence from their lawyers, saying they have no comfort from the answers from the government to date. The family wants to know — and they deserve to have the answers — why the government is not ex- panding the inquiry. What possible reason can the min- ister or any party have for the limitation of the inquiry into these tragic events? Hon. S. Hagen: As I said previously, we have mul- tiple processes underway to get to the bottom of this. One is carried out by the independent child and youth officer, who has asked my critic to participate in this.

One is by the coroner, one is by the Ombudsman, and one is by a blue-ribbon panel. The member knows very we ll that there is an ongo- ing custody case before the courts. The letter she refers to was written by the counsel to one of those parties. Therefore, it's totally inappropriate for me to comment. COMPLIANCE OF COPEMAN CLINIC WITH FEDERAL AND PROVINCIAL LEGISLATION D. Cubberley: Can the Minister of Health inform this House whether he has determined that the Cope- man clinic does or does not breach the Canada Health Act or the Medicare Protection Act? Hon. G.

Abbott: I'm really gratified to get a ques- tion from the Health critic, and I'm particularly grati- fied, given that so many of the architects and pioneers of private care are over there on the other side of the House with them. We've been working with Mr. Copeman around his clinic. It's our view that as it was originally structured, it would be in contravention of both the Medicare Pro- tection Act and the Canada Health Act. However, Mr.

Copeman has indicated to us that he wishes to operate in compliance with those acts, so our staff continues to consult with him and work with him in respect of what he proposes to do. [1435] Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. D. Cubberley: Despite the compliment that the member just paid us, I think we could hardly compete with your government's efforts on behalf of private care. Just last week the minister broke his long silence, and he admitted that the Copeman clinic would appear to violate the Canada Health Act and the Medicare Protection Act.

These laws exist because British Co- lumbians and Canadians ag ree that equal access to health care is worth protecting. It's the job of this gov- ernment to protect public health care. What specific steps is the minister taking to ensure the billing prac- tices of the Copeman clinic do not violate provincial or federal law prior to its opening? Hon. G. Abbott: I certainly didn't pay that compli- ment idly. In fact, it was under the NDP in the 1990s that some 30 clinics — private clinics — were created in B.C. The NDP of that decade doubled the number of private clinics that existed in B.C.

They made it possible for the first time for ICBC and WCB and RCMP to actually use those clinics. I wasn't being at all facetious in offering up that particular compliment to the other side. I can tell the member opposite…. I guess he missed the press conference on September 6, when we were talking about the Copeman clinic. I guess he maybe saw Vaughn Palmer the other night. That's good if he did, because we did talk about it there as well. The answer is very clea r. Mr. Copeman wants to work within the law. We are going to ensure as best we can that he does operate within the law.

Without know- ing better, I will assume that he will operate in compli- ance, but we will certainly be monitoring what he does. If he is out of compliance, we will take appropriate steps. K. Conroy: This minister keeps talking about his- tory, but what people in this province want to know about is what's happening right now in 2005. At the Copeland clinic, those who pay the $1,700 sign-up fee and the $2,300 annual fee will get to see a doctor before someone who does not pay the fee. Does the minister believe that preferential access to doctors for a fee falls within the guidelines of the Medicare Protection Act?

Hon. G. Abbott: One of my favourite movies of all time, and it may be one of yours as well, is Blazing Sad- dles — a very complex plot but, apart from that, just an exceptional movie. I understand they're going to do a remake of that based on the NDP's health policies and call it "Blazing Hypocrisy," which I think would be entirely appropriate. Of course we don't believe that people should have to pay an access fee for service. Of course we don't be-

1230 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 lieve that. We will take every appropriate step to en- sure that every British Columbian has full access to medicare protection plan services and Canada Health Act services. K. Conroy: That's an interesting answer, because Mr. Copeman claims that the clinic will be open to the public but that patients who do not pay the member- ship fee "can't expect the sa me level of service." Does the minister understand that he has a responsibility to ensure that people aren't securing access to doctors for insured services based on their ability to pay a fee? Hon.

G. Abbott: It's interesting that the opposition seems to attach such nefari ous motives to anyone in- volved in the provision of private health care when they're in opposition, yet are completely unconcerned about it when they're in government. It's really a re- markable thing that we should hear such a gap between when they were in government and now that they're in opposition. But maybe that's one of those old NDP–new NDP things that is a continuing puzzle to me. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1440] Hon. G. Abbott: The fact of the matter is that Mr.

Copeman has indicated to us as recently as a couple of days ago that he still intend s to operate within compli- ance, within the Medicare Protection Act, which is a provincial statute, and the Canada Health Act, which is a federal statute. I'm taking him at his word. He isn't open yet. We are going to follow this situation very closely, and we will ensure that if we see activities that are out of compliance, we will take appropriate steps to resolve it. S.

Simpson: The difference here with the minister is that we weren't being facetious when we said the architects of privatization were on that side — unlike the minister, who is being glib. The minister might remember one of his past colleagues… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. S. Simpson: …who looked forward to being here, Dr. Gur Singh. I remember when he, a past Liberal candidate, held up and said that people are going to have to pay for health care with their credit cards in this province. That's what his side believes.

If this minister believes that an annual facility fee and sign-up fee that clearly confers privileged access to a doctor doesn't violate provincial and federal laws, can he tell us what stops any primary care physician from charging patients an annual fee? Hon. G. Abbott: Perhaps the member wasn't listen- ing to my earlier responses. In fact, we have advised Mr.

Copeman on a couple of occasions now, and by letter, that we believe the way that he originally pro- posed the Copeman clinic, the structure of it — based on the advertisements in the Vancouver Sun among other places, on the website and some correspondence in respect of what he proposed to do — suggested that at least a portion of what Mr. Copeman was proposing to do would be out of compliance with the Canada Health Act and the Medicare Protection Act. We ad- vised him of that very clearly. In response, Mr.

Cope- man has written back and said: "No, I wish to operate within compliance of those statutes." So again, I intend, and my ministry intends, to con- tinue to work with Mr. Copeman to see if we can de- velop something innovative but yet within the scope of the Canada Health Act and the Medicare Protection Act. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S. Simpson: Well, the minister will know that his government — and he voted for this — brought in Bill 92, the Medicare Protecti on Amendment Act, which was passed by this Legislature.

The purpose of that bill, as we will all know, was to clarify the government's ability to review and audit private clinic billing prac- tices. Of course, the bill was never proclaimed. Is the reason the minister hasn't proclaimed this act because he's happy to make it easier to ignore the creeping pri- vatization of primary care in British Columbia? Hon. G. Abbott: I'm somewhat disappointed by the opposition attitude in respect of that matter.

At the federal-provincial-territorial meeting that we had in Toronto on the weekend, the NDP government in Manitoba — their Health Minister — and the Sas- katchewan NDP Health Minister both indicated that we should not have such a narrow view as is articu- lated by the NDP folks in British Columbia. I think they're genuinely troubled by the kinds of attitudes that are taken here, quite at odds with the way in which these things were managed when you were in government. I mean, that's the astonishing thing.

I know sometimes people refer to the gap between what they actually did in government and what they say in opposition as hypocris y, but I don't like to think of it that way. I think you just haven't thought these things through yet, and I look forward to the time when you do. [1445] PROVINCIAL HEALTH CARE LEGISLATION C. James: Well, we've heard anything but answers f r o m t h e H e a l t h M i n i s t e r . H e s t a t e d t h a t h e i n f a c t thought that the Copeman clinic was in compliance.

Well, I'm sorry, but paying $4,000 for preferred access to a doctor certainly sounds like for-profit medicine to this side of the House. Health care is worth protecting. Public health care is worth protecting, and it is the job of government to protect public health care. But instead of bringing in

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1231 the tools necessary to do the job, this government has turned a blind eye. So I would like to ask the minister again: can he explain why cabinet has rejected changes to the B.C. Medicare Protection Act and why they haven't pro- claimed Bill 92? Hon. G. Abbott: I truly am grateful for the amount of attention I'm getting today. It is gratifying, because one of the things I kept hearing in the summer months was that the health system was in chaos and that this opposition was going to be holding the government to account.

The fact of the matter is that this is a great health system that we have in the province of British Colum- bia, and every day that system gets better. But it doesn't get better because we try to keep everything exactly the same as it was the day before. What we have tried to do as a government, I think with great success, is build some innovation, some energy, some commitment into making it a stronger health system based on continuous improvement.

The opposition, led by the opposition leader, have a kind of traditional hidebound attitude that simply is not in accord with making progress within our health care system. Mr. Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a sup- plemental. C. James: I'd like to tell the Health Minister what else he heard this summer. He heard the opposition asking him to proclaim the ac t, and he didn't respond. He heard our Health critic writing him a letter, in fact, asking him to look at the clinic and investigate it. He didn't respond.

He was asked by the media in July whether he was going to deal with this issue, and he said: "The time is not right." But I've asked the minister to listen, perhaps, to his former colleague, the former minister, when he intro- duced Bill 92 and talked in support of that bill and stated: "I am pleased to introduce Bill 92, which amends the Medicare Prot ection Act….

These amend- ments will bring greater clarity to both patients and private clinic operators ab out billing practices." With- out Bill 92, government essentially has to take the word of private operators that their practices fall within the guidelines of the Medicare Protection Act. I would like to again ask the minister: if he won't listen to the public, will he listen to his former col- league and actually bring in protections for the taxpay- ers of British Columbia? Hon. G.

Abbott: It's always good to hear the views of those who are opposed to virtually everything in this province, and we hear that view again here today. We make appropriate decisions at appropriate times with respect to legislat ion. I've already said on a number of occasions to the member that, in fact, we have been all over the Copeman clinic issue. Mr. Copeman has had some discussions with the ministry. He has indicated that he wishes to operate within compliance of the Medicare Protection Act and the Canada Health Act.

I think that, again, the members can bounce up and down and pound their chests and say this is a terrible thing, but it is completely at odds with the attitude they took when they were in govern- ment — a doubling of the number of private clinics; 30 clinics or more created under the NDP; access for WCB and ICBC and other organizations to the private clinics. Again… Mr. Speaker: Thank you, minister. Hon. G. Abbott: …I don't understand where they're going here. SERVICES FOR GANG-INVOLVED YOUTH J. Brar: I hear from people outside sometimes about what question period is.

Peop le say question period is only for questions, not fo r the answers. Every day when I come here, this House kind of confirms that. But let's try a new question. This is a serious ques- tion, and I hope to get the right answer for this one. Over 70 young people, mainly from the South Asian community, have been murder ed during the last ten years due to gang-related activities. Young people who get involved in gang activities have a very hard time getting out, even if they want to. [1450] So my question is to the Solicitor General.

Is he aware of the challenges faced by young people trying to get out of gang activities, and what specific support is available to help them? Hon. W. Oppal: This issue first arose a number of years ago. As the member knows, during the last ten to 12 years, some 95 young men of the Indo-Canadian community have been victims of murder. Approximately three years ago a number of us got together and estab- lished some proactive committees in order to determine what the root causes of this aberrant conduct are.

We know there are a number of people we can't save, unfortunately, becaus e they're so firmly en- trenched in the underworld . But there are many, many other dysfunctional kids, many other kids who need help, many kids who are wanting assistance. There are a number of committees that have been formed, fundraisers…. I would invite the hon. member to give his time and come and join some of the commit- tees and take

part in the community so that we can accommodate the children and we can assist those children in the schools who need our help. We need the help; we need all the help that we can get. I would in- vite you to come forward and help. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. J. Brar: Actually, I'm pleased to see that the Attor- ney General stood up for this one and to respond to the question. But let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that I have

1232 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 met with the chief of the task force. I have been to those committees not one time but more than one time. I know there are a number of committees. I know there are committees in the community working with this government, and I know there are committees in the process of being established by the federal government. But my question is different . My question is simple. That's what I want to ask the minister responsible for this one. You know, the gang war has a unique culture.

When you are into it, it's very hard for someone to come out of it, even if somebody wants to do that. So my question is pretty simple. Those committees are working on the awareness si de, and I appreciate that work. But my question is very simple. Again, to the Attorney General: what specific strat- egy can he point to, to give young people the help they need to get out of those gang wars or those gangs if they wish to do that? At this point in time, there is nothing. I want to specifically ask the Attorney General. Hon. W. Oppal: This government has addressed those issues on two fronts.

On the enforcement front, there has been an integrated gang task force. That's resulted in a number of arrests that have taken place — some trials and some convictions. The area where I think we need the greatest assis- tance and the greatest resources is the area of preven- tion — the proactive work. There, a number of us have done an immense amount of work. I don't take credit f o r i t . I ' v e b e e n a p a r t o f s o m e o f t h e c o m m i t t e e s . B u t there are a number of volunteers who are doing men- toring programs involving young children.

The RCMP in Richmond and Surrey have been involved in basket- ball leagues, setting up youth camps and matters of that nature. That's what we need the community to do. I would invite the member, who is a member of the Indo-Canadian community, to give some of his time to come forward and assist th ose people who are helping the kids and volunteering their own time. [End of question period.] Petitions D. Thorne: I h a v e a p e t i t i o n t o s u b m i t o n b e h a l f o f Karin E.

Williams, a senior citizen and grandmother from school district 43, Coquitlam, and 305 B.C. resi- dents from the lower mainland indicating that they sup- port the efforts of B.C. teachers to fight for improve- ments to our public education system. The petitioners respectfully request that the hon. House repeal Bill 12. [1455] C. Puchmayr: I also have a petition to submit, and the petition is to all levels of Canadian government. It's for immediate intervention into the Telus dispute. Tabling Documents Hon. M. de Jong: I have the honour to present the 2003 annual report for the Labour Relations Board.

Point of Privilege (Speaker's Ruling) Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, following question period on Monday, October 24, 2005, the hon. member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca rose and reserved his right to raise a matter of privilege relating to statements made in the House by the Minist er of Labour. On Tuesday morning, prior to entering on orders of the day, the member raised his matter of privilege and presented the statement of matter together with supporting documentation and a motion that the member would propose to move if the Chair found that he had estab- lished a prima facie case of privilege.

The member has complied with the technical re- quirements upon raising the matter of privilege and also provided the Chair with a notice of his intention in this regard. On Tuesday af ternoon, following question period, the hon. Minister of Labour and Government House Leader responded to the matter of privilege and tabled with the House his statement and supporting documentation. Both members ably argued their position, and I have had an opportunity to examine the material filed, the Hansard report and the relevant authorities.

I wish first to deal with the "earliest opportunity" rule, which was raised by the Minister of Labour and is canvassed in some detail at pages 48 and 49 of Parliamentary Prac- tice in British Columbia , third edition. In the decision, Speaker Schroeder, after canvassing the facts in the case, observes as follows: The Chair must, however, consider the rules relating to the matters of privilege. It is necessary that the matter be raised at the earliest opportunity and the proposed mo- tion be tendered at the same time.

The motion was prop- erly tendered in accordance with the rule, so it remains for the Chair to consider whether the matter was raised at the earliest opportunity. In that case, the alleged offence occurred on Monday the 23rd, and the matter was raised in the House on Wednesday the 25th. By way of explanation for the delay, the member observed that it was not until the 25th that he learned the identity of the person com- plained of, and therefore the matter had not been raised earlier.

The Chair observed as follows: It seems to the Chair that the member should have brought the incident to the attention of the House imme- diately to preserve his rights and then pursued his inves- tigation as to the identity of the party. The procedure would have conformed with the authority in this House, which states the proposition that the matter of privilege may be raised to satisfy the "earliest opportunity" rule, even though complete detail upon which the matter is based is not available at the time.

Hon. members will well be aware that the standing order of the House states clearly that whenever a mat- ter of privilege arises, it shall be taken into considera- tion immediately. A reading of the statement submitted by the mem- ber for Malahat–Juan de Fuca clearly identified October 19 as the date on which the alleged offence occurred.

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1233 Yet it was not till the afternoon of Monday, October 24 that the same member rose to reserve his right to raise the matter of privilege. Notwithstanding that the member may not have all the facts in his hand on Oc- tober 19, it seems to the Chair that this was the date upon which he should have reserved his right to raise the matter of privilege to be in conformity with the standing orders and the decision of this House quoted above.

Finally, on this particular point, let me quote again from the final paragraph of the decision referred to: Because a motion based on privilege is given precedence over the prearranged program of public business, strict compliance with the rules has invariably been required. I'm unable to find any authority which would permit the Chair to allow this matter to proceed when it has been raised in the House on the second sitting day after the event complained of.

Even had the matter been raised in the House at 2 p.m. on Tuesday the 24th, it seems to the Chair, based on existing authorities, the matter would have failed to satisfy the "earliest opportunity" rule. There is no doubt that the onus on the member raising the matter of privilege is a heavy one, but the Chair has no authority to relax the rules, even though the Chair may well be satisfied that a prima facie case exists. [1500] On this ground, the member's application cannot succeed. Having made that finding, I also wish to touch on the substantive portion of this matter.

I not only have examined with great care the written submissions of the hon. Minister of Labour and the hon. member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca but have examined the Hansard reports of both members' submissions. I should men- tion as an aside that the sp eedy and accurate transcript by Hansard staff of the remarks made by members in cases like the one before me are of enormous assistance to the Chair in coming to a decision. The member's submission alleges that the minister's replies to questions posed by the opposition on October 19 conveyed misleading information to the House.

The minister says the information conveyed on that occasion was accurate in all aspects and tabled again the notice of appointment of the industri al inquiry commission ap- pointing Vince Ready as the industrial inquiry commis- sioner. The document in question was dated October 6, 2005, apparently in conformity with the minister's an- swers given in the House on October 19. The member then quotes from Mr. Ready's report identifying October 10, 2005, as the date of his ap- pointment as the industrial inquiry commissioner.

No explanation has been given as to the divergence of these two dates, but certainly, the appointment docu- ment would tend to confirm the minister's version of the events. In any events, these quotes failed to provide the foundation for an assertion that the minister misled the House. I commend both members upon orderly presenta- tions. Bearing in mind the stringent guidelines relating to such matters, I am unable to find a prima facie case has been established, and the member will not be per- mitted to move the tendered motion. Orders of the Day Hon.

M. de Jong: In this chamber, continued esti- mates debate, Committee of Supply, of the Ministry of Forests and Range and Minister of Housing, and in Committee A, for the information of members, contin- ued estimates debate of the Ministry of Transportation. [1505] Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF FORESTS AND RANGE AND MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR HOUSING (continued) The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); H. Bloy in the chair. The committee met at 3:06 p.m. On Vote 31: ministry operations, $418,644,000 (continued). B.

Simpson: For the minister's benefit, particularly with relation to staff, we're going to try and wrap up the Forests estimates around five o'clock and then want to switch to Housing at that time, so the minister can arrange appropriate staff to be in here. Housing would then go through the evening session, with the hope of wrapping that up at the end of this evening. With that in mind, then, and with the minister's forbearance, I'd like to try and move rapidly through some critical items. I'll try and curtail my questions so that they're specific.

There are some things th at are very definitively stated in the platform and in the throne speech. This government pointed to the platform as a document that needed to be referenced, so I'd like to go through the points in the platform and ma ke sure that I understand where they are in the process. The first, and the minister has mentioned this in question period, is: "Our government will work with the B.C. Competition Council to recommend a long- term strategy for reviving and securing B.C.'s pulp and paper industry." That's been called for by a number of agencies.

If the minister could give an update on where that is, because again, it's not one that I can find explic- itly in the service plan. Hon. R. Coleman: The service plan is about the operation of the ministry. The Competition Council is about the group of people that are looking at the com- petition side and recommendations with regards to forestry and issues that it faces. The Competition Council is continuing to do its work. The last I heard, it's expected that they may be able to be completed and reported out by November 30. I look forward to that report.

I did, early on in the cycle of the Competition Council, have some conversation with some members

1234 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 to see if they could perhaps, if they were in a position to, provide an interim pulp report with regards to some of the competition issues on pulp. Because of some of the matters that were facing us, I wanted, basi- cally, some input on them. Th ey haven't been able to do that as yet. I don't know whether they will be able to prior to their full report, which will be up to them to do.

I think they felt that there was still a body of work to do, with some of the suppliers and looking at inter- national markets and that sort of thing, with regards to getting to that point. B. Simpson: What entity will the B.C. Competition Council actually report out to? Hon. R. Coleman: My understanding is that the report will come to government. B. Simpson: I want to talk about community forests in general a little bit later on, but there's an explicit statement in the platform that states that new stumpage arrangements will help existing community forests, par- ticularly in the expansion.

Would the minister please report out on where we're at with those discussions? [1510] Hon. R. Coleman: Yes. I met with a number of communities that have reques ts in or, actually, expres- sions of interest with regards to community forests at the UBCM. We're finalizing a lot of the documentation to it. Like I said to the member for Nelson-Creston yes- terday, we expect that a number of those we would probably be able to release to communities in the next two weeks. The second part of the member's question, though, really deals with the crux of community forests.

I met with the community forest groups in Prince George in September. I met with some others again at UBCM later in September and some others more recently. I have given the commitment that we will try and find a better formula and a more streamlined operation for community forests to make them actually sustainable for communities. That work is ongoing now. I don't have a definitive time line when it will be completed, because we've certainly asked our folks to think outside the box with regards to how we do it with community forests.

They have a number of options in front of them that they will bring back to me for recommendation. B. Simpson: Again, to the minister: is there a time line associated with that? Hon. R. Coleman: Yeah, we were hoping that they can have it done and back and a decision made by the end of November. If it's possible to do it earlier, we're going to do it earlier, because we would like to get some certainty on those issues. B. Simpson: As I said, I'd like to come back a little bit on community forests when I look at some issues under small tenures.

The expansion of the small-scale salvage program is also pointed to in the platform. Could the minister report out on where that is at? Hon. R. Coleman: In '03-04 there were about 500,000 cubic metres that went out in small-scale sal- vaging. It went up to 2.1 million cubic metres in '04-05, and it's expected to be higher this year. B. Simpson: I'd like to explore small-scale salvage a little bit further. As the minister may or may not know, the southern part of my riding has a very active small- scale salvage operation that has put a number of pro- posals in front of the district manager.

I was made aware today that there are now some issues with small-scale salvage in the Kamloops region, where permits are not being i ssued and there's a delay. In both cases, the small-scale salvage operators have put proposals to the district managers, and in those proposals their business cases for increasing the num- ber of FTEs who are managing small-scale salvage pro- grams….

Both organizations, and I've heard this from other districts, are pointing to the lack of FTEs within the Ministry of Forests and Range offices for getting permits out the door, for getting permits in a timely fashion, and it's quite a hindrance. I think it's important to note that the operators themselves have put a business case together showing that if they can do their work, not only are they em- ploying significant numbers of people and contributing to the local economy, but th ey're also supplying suffi- cient stumpage such that the FTEs are more than cov- ered by the government's revenue stream.

Is the minis- ter aware of those concerns, and if so, what does he expect the districts will do to address those concerns around FTEs and permitting process? [1515] Hon. R. Coleman: The small-scale salvage program is experiencing some growing pains, particularly in the southern area of the Cariboo and to a lesser degree in Kamloops. There are also some other concerns that have come out of the increase in small-scale salvage. We've asked for and there is some work being done to do a review of all the prog ram s with reg ard to sm all- scale salvage to report out no later than December 31.

The reason for that is that we're finding a number of the patches are starting to join together, because people are actually forming what I guess you would call consortiums, and that was never the intent of the small-scale salvage. Obviously, in addition to that, it brings along other pressures on silviculture programs. We will continue to process as best we can and do the review to make sure that this program meets the long- term goals and objectives that it was originally set out to do. B. Simpson: I think that will be helpful. It's a help- ful review and a necessary review.

Will that review encompass some of the things that the small-scale sal- vage operators are asking for? They have limitations on

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1235 the amount of NSR. They have limitations on the size that they can open up, etc. The small-scale salvage op- erators themselves have some workarounds in those areas. Will they be engaged in that? Will it be a com- prehensive review that also looks at some of their re- quests for both policy changes and additional staffing? Hon. R. Coleman: The short answer to that is yes, but at the same time I think the small-scale salvagers have to recognize a couple of things. One is that this is a small-scale salvage program.

It's called "small-scale salvage" for a reason, and the reason it worked initially was because it was kept at that level. Secondly, because of some of the sort of consorti- ums that are coming together, we don't want people who are unqualified working in the bush with the wrong safety equipment an d the wrong equipment. We have made a commitment that where our tenures are involved — licences like B.C. Timber Sales and small-scale salvaging — we're going to raise the bar where the qualification to wo rk in the bush…. One of the things will be the safety requirements.

As we go through this, some of the operators are going to have to probably raise their safety standards for the protection of worker safety, and I think that's very critical to the aspect as we go through this. We will consult with them, but the folks out there must understand that the ministry is going to be giving di- rection on the whole safety issue, which we think is a critical part of this packag e and the other packages of small tenures. B. Simpson: I don't think you would have any re- sistance on the part of the small-scale salvage operators that I've spoken with.

They recognize that they need to do some work around standards, etc. I don't think any- body would push back around the safety. Since the minister has raised safety, I do have one follow-up on last night's discussion that got truncated. The minister's response around applying a safety lens to the operations of B.C. Timber Sales and the Ministry of Forests operations, etc., was heartening. However, the question I asked was quite explicit, and it comes from a number of sources, including the TLA and oth- ers, who are asking if the mi nistry will also do a policy review — the policy changes, the legislative changes.

It's not just the operations of BCTS and Ministry of Forests and Range but where, for example, policy al- lows different utilization standards, where policy al- lows different road standards and where policy in terms of changing cut control has exacerbated stump- age bingo — or cuts to the ministry staff, which have exacerbated the permitting cycle. [1520] Will the ministry undertake to review those with a safety lens on? Not the operational side — that's not what I had meant to do yesterday, because I under- stand that those discussions are going on.

The call is for a review of the policy side for implications on safe working conditions for people who are working in our forests. Hon. R. Coleman: We're working with the B.C. Forest Safety Council. If they identify that as one of their top priorities, then we would do that with them. The B.C. Forest Safety Council is a cross-sectoral coun- cil. It's made up of a number of the major companies, independent loggers, fallers, major labour organiza- tions that are involved in the forest sector, B.C. Timber Sales, the Ministry of Forests and WCB.

On one side of the equation, the companies that are operating within that are more sophisticated and are dealing with the WCB-type standards. They're in- spected and monitored, as well, by WCB. They have an organized labour structure that basically flows into safety councils on work sites and that sort of thing. So there's that relationship that takes place. To date, the B.C. Forest Safety Council has basically identified four major initiatives. One is TruckSafe, which is roads standards and maintenance. The second is silvi-safe, which is safety and employment standards for people in the silviculture side.

Faller certification — they want training and registering of fallers. All fallers need to be accredited by July 31, 2005. Then there's qualified companies, which means companies will need to demonstrate a safety program for all their workers. That is going to flow from the B.C. Safety Council through to the smaller companies that do small tenures with the government, because we're go- ing to put that in as a standard. We're going to work together with this council, because that's the commitment we made: to make these things a priority and to follow through on them both in the ministry….

We also had the expectation — and the agreement, frankly — with the majors, organized la- bour, the loggers and the fallers that they will also fol- low through on these initiatives and support them so that they can be cross-industry, because obviously, we're not necessarily on every work site. We need that cooperation building safe work sites. That's why I think that this safety council…. They're a pretty focused bu nch, actually. I met with them, and they're pretty focused on doing these things, and they're pretty committed to working with us.

We've made the commitment to implement the initia- tives that they think they need to have to improve safety in the forests. B. Simpson: Thank you for that update. I look for- ward to tracking what thos e changes are. I will say again that the reason for rais ing this one more time is that in my little three-wishes exercise of what questions they would ask, that was a primary question, and it was explicitly the issue of reviewing the policy changes.

To finish off on the platform, there's one other one that I'm interested in an update on, and that is a state- ment: "Work with independent power producers and forest companies to produces clean, reliable, competi- tively priced electricity supply…for B.C.'s lumber and pulp mills." As we all know, energy costs are becoming an increasing factor in co mpetitiveness. What is the nature of that? Is it underway? How will that proceed?

1236 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 [1525] Hon. R. Coleman: As the member knows, a num- ber of companies actually do very good jobs with bio- mass — how they produce heat and what have you, particularly in plants. I th ink one of the impressive ones is probably Ainsworth's operation at 100 Mile House at their OSB plant. We also recognize that there may be an opportunity on the land base with regards to this resource — particularly the massive amount of wood we're going to have coming out of beetle — for other biodiversity with regards to power and energy.

I've already had conversations with the Ministry of Energy and Mines and asked that they start to do some work with us on energy op portunities and producing from biomass for government. Basically, that would go back to discussions with Hydro and capital costs and opportunities and what we see.

I found the presentation that I received from CH Anderson and its partners fr om Scandinavia to be very instructive on what may be opportunities on the land base, considering that they're going to build pellet plants — four of them in the interior of British Colum- bia — to make pellets that they're going to ship to Scandinavia, which are going to be burnt with coal to reduce the amount of coal being used in coal-burning power plants over there. They'll get Kyoto credits. They figured all this business plan out, and they have a patented process that they do with these pellets.

At the same time, we participate and do work with an organization called BIOCAP, which is out of Queen's University. It's a research body on energy, basically to do research on bioenergy and that sort of thing. That work's ongoing. I've actually spoken to a number of my colleagues in conversation to let them know that we're going to be looking at these options with the Minister of Energy and Mines.

A member of our staff went to Finland re- cently to see their 260-megawatt power plant and is g o i n g t o b e p a r t o f t h a t p r o c e s s , c o m i n g b a c k t o m e with what we think might be options in biomass. B. Simpson: As the minister knows, the perfect- storm group, when they went to Ottawa, was asking Ottawa to assist them in looking at the tax regime — looking at possible different write-down strategies, etc. — to accelerate capital investment in these kinds of ventures.

As the minister's rightly pointed out, we do have a potential for a large amount of biomass there, but it's one of those things that will degenerate over time if we're not dealing with it quickly. To the minister: which agency on the part of the provincial government will be working with the Kyoto group, with the federal government, to get us on a faster track in this province to get on the leading edge of biomass conversion, biofuel conversion? It strikes me that the Kyoto group there has a lot of money. I don't think they know quite what to do with it, and it would be nice if we were on the front end of that.

Hon. R. Coleman: As I understand it, in the pro- vincial government, Kyoto is with the Ministry of Environment, and energy is with Energy and Mines. We're working with both of those groups, but particu- larly with Energy and Mines, to push an initiative to look at this thing a bit aggressively. The reason for that is beca use it really hasn't been, in fairness to our Ministry of Environment more than anything else…. I don't think the federal government has nailed down their end of what's going to happen with Kyoto and the credits and what have you.

I don't think that we should wait fo r that process to drag us along slowly if there are opportunities we can see in British Columbia today. [1530] My conversations with the minister are that we are going to put some…. He's ac tually already, as I under- stand it, put some people on it. We are going to be much more proactive than waiting for the Kyoto side to actually drive the agenda. B. Simpson: The minister actually makes my point, and I couldn't agree with him more on this. I don't think the federal government knows what they're do- ing.

I've been in touch with some of the NDP MPs who have been tracking this — in particular, Nathan Cullen from Skeena, who seems to be quite on top of it. He's indicated — and it could be just part of the province's strategy — that they're looking for how to deal with this. If we are going to them with, "Here's a way of deal- ing with it," I guess I would make a pitch for communi- ties that are on the leading edge of the mountain pine beetle, like Quesnel. We are very good pilot communi- ties, where we have the opportunity to play around with some of these things on both a micro and macro scale.

My sense is that if the province takes the lead and goes with a comprehensive suggestion…. What I'm being told is that the federal government is kind of looking for that. In rolling up what the province is al- ready doing with some innovative strategies at a local level, working with the commu nities that are trying to restructure themselves, it seems like it's a real win, but it's a matter of us putting some horsepower to it and getting on the front end before Ontario and some of the others start getting their hands up. Hon. R. Coleman: We do anticipate that happen- ing.

That's why, as part of the movement in the last number of months, I've met with C.H. Innes and oth- ers. We're saying: "Start setting some resources to this thing. Let's set some priorities around it. Let's see what's available to British Columbia." I don't have a concern about Ontario waking up to biomass and figuring this thing out tomorrow. They're talking about expanding their nuclear energy these days.

I think that if we have a resource in British Co- lumbia that's clean, that makes sense environmentally and we can make it work for the people we supply power to, who are citizens short-term and long-term, we have a responsibility to get on that and see if it's possible. That's what we've asked our people to do.

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1237 B. Simpson: Lots of money is a big alarm clock. So while Ontario may be looking at other things, if they start to recognize there's a lot of money there…. If they shift away, it's possible that we get caught behind the eight ball, but I'll take the minister at his word. One of the things, and I'm not sure the minister is aware of it…. Prince George, for example, is looking at an independent power corporation. They're trying to get started on that.

I've also had discussions with peo- ple on the coast around hemlock pulp because, as the minister is aware — and we've raised that in the House during question period — we have a chip oversupply situation and a hemlock pulp problem. Getting really m o v i n g o n t h i s r a p i d l y , I t hink, deals with a lot of is- sues that are out there. I look forward to what the province does and the leader ship role it will play in that area. I'd like to move off the platform, then, and into some other substantive matters. One of the things I do want to look at under small tenures is….

It seems as if the staffing levels within district offices are not suffi- cient for a lot of the smaller programs. It is a constant refrain wherever I have gone. In the service plan…. This has been sent to me by someone else. I can't find it in the update, but apparently, it's in the previous ser- vice plan. There was a bullet reference that stated that there will be a client service strategy within the Minis- try of Forests. If the minister or his staff isn't aware of that, my question is still pertinent.

Does the ministry track that sort of sense of client complaints — the frustrations, submissions around staffing issues? How does the ministry in the district office level or at the provincial level look at all of that with respect to how it resources various programs and how it addresses, as one would say, client-centred con- cerns about service level delivery? [1535] Hon. R. Coleman: Obviously, we're trying to….

That's the work that's going on, on things like commu- nity forests and particularly woodlots, which I've met on extensively and which I fi nd have as many and as varied issues by region and by community almost as some other groups that I've dealt with in the past. I've gone into meetings with these groups and said, "Okay, now maybe we can look at this or that as a solution," had some sort of agreement and received e-mails back through my ministry within hours, saying: "Well, actu- ally, not me too." So there are really…. The small licensees are very high administration to the ministry.

Probably at least 10 percent of our time is spent for a very minuscule part of the revenue. We give them a lot of attention and a lot of service, and in so doing, there's always someone, because there are so many, I think, that you're going to get…. And some- times the level of sophistication is different. You're going to get complaints. We're aware of those complaints, but we do attend their AGMs. We have staff at their AGMs. We meet with their execu- tives. We meet with their re gional groups. This is all "we." I'm talking collectively about the staff of the min- istry. That feeds back.

We have one person who's com- pletely dedicated to the woodlot file to look at oppor- tunities to streamline that so it works better for them and for community forests. One experience I've had as a minister is that this group is not necessarily always on the same page. At the same time, they do want some…. There are some basic, simple principles they'd like. They'd like to have a better way to understand their stumpage and fibre so it's not so complex for them, because they are small operators, and it costs them time and money.

They would like to be able to know what the process would be going for and any additional discussions on future tenures, and we've put that in place with them. I met with them recently, as did my staff. I received a report back from my staff on the most recent meeting, where we put a number of things on the table and re- ceived back that this group is very positive with the direction we're going in and the work we're doing with them. I believe that's correct, because in the most recent discussion I had with one of their executive, it was that exactly. We'll get there for them.

There is some more work to be done, but I think we've got some pretty good di- rection going that's going to reach a lot of their goals they've asked us to reach. B. Simpson: I'm glad the minister brought up woodlots and community forests. It seems like we're in a flow here, because each time you finish something off, it leads into my next question, so that's great. It makes it very efficient. Interjection. B. Simpson: Yes, must be. It's the years of being a police officer and reading people's minds — which is a scary thought, by the way. Anyway, coming to the small tenures.

Again, I know that the minister doesn't mean to use words that could be perceived as a putdown, but when these groups are referred to as a miniscule part of our reve- nue stream, it immediately, I know, gets their back up, because they don't look at it as their job to be revenue stream to the province. What they have is a very high percentage of return to communities, and that's how they look at things. When you look at small- scale salvage operators, if…. I was told that in the Williams Lake area, there's a substantial number.

If you just multiply by a factor of three, it's equivalent, if that program goes down, to two fully functional mills. Then you look at the capital they put into their equipment, which is predominantly pur- chased locally — gas, etc. Same with woodlot and so on. [1540] They don't look at themselves with respect to reve- nue stream to the Crown. They look at themselves with respect to percentage that stays in the local community and in the local economy — okay?

1238 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 One of the aspects of that, with the small-tenure program the minister's fully apprised of, is the woodlot program, the promised doub ling. I was at the woodlot federation annual general meeting. It's still an issue and concern. For the record, what is the status of that, and when might we see some new woodlots under the revitalization strategy? Hon. R. Coleman: It was actually the woodlot folks that told me that there's a small amount of our revenue and a large amount of administration.

They told me that because they were making the case that they needed to have their system streamline d so that the amount of work they had to go through and our staff had to go through in order to service them should be streamlined and made more flexible. So it wasn't questioning whether they were a revenue source or not or where they bought their capital; it was really about that particular aspect.

They actually identified that to me in one of the early meetings I had with them, and I said: "Well, you're right." Now, let's see if we can find a way to work through some of the discussion papers we've had with them. Their concern when I talked to them was: "Okay, we've been through these discussions before with ministries" — in their case I think it's probably for 20 years or so — "and somebody's always working on something." I said: "Look, I'm going to set a tight time frame on this. We're going to make some decisions.

You will find out not too long from now what those decisions are that you've put before us that we think we can accommodate you on so you can move on with your business." I think that's the relationship they want to have with the ministry. Having said that, though, we should also remember that that's part of us giving a service to a client base that could be streamlined so that they can have a better operating network and we can better ser- vice them, which obviously puts additional resources, if we can streamline their processes, back onto other things that our staff might want to concentrate on.

So it's good for both parties that we get there. I've made that commitment to them, and I've made the same commitment to the community forest folks, and we're going to get there. B. Simpson: Thank you for that clarification. My question, however, was: when will the first woodlot be issued under the revitalization strategy? Hon. R. Coleman: In honesty, not in the near term. In discussions with the wood lot federation, they felt that was appropriate, becaus e they feel that the busi- ness structure and the streamlining needs to get straightened out first before w e p i l e m o r e w o o d l o t s onto the program.

My commitment to them was that, first, we would get this piece of work done, and then we would look at what fibre supply was available for the expansion of the woodlot program. B. Simpson: This may be one of those where we would agree to disagree on the

interpretation of what's being asked for, because when I was at the AGM, there was a high level of anxiety, where people wanted to see when there would be awards. I would agree that different districts feel different levels of readiness for it. One of the concerns — and I'm going to spend a little bit of time around BCTS momentarily — is what B.C. Timber Sales is doing in locking up portions of the AAC and not making them available. I'd like to raise a case in point that the minister is aware of, and that's Quesnel, where B.C.

Timber Sales has basically told everybody that the land base is essentially locked up and, to a certain extent, has created a bit of infighting in the community, because they've layered potential woodlots over top of the area that was targeted for community forest. [1545] The relationship — and I've got the documentation here; I'm sure the minister has it himself — and the discussions there are becomi ng a little bit animated. That is beginning to become a concern as BCTS kind of further puts its stamp over things.

Then there's a feel- ing that the possibilities and potentials for areas for woodlots or community forests are shrinking. So I'm hearing a different story, and I'm wondering if the minister can comment on the role that B.C. Tim- ber Sales will play in making woodlots and community forests available in the future. Hon. R. Coleman: I am aware of some of the con- flicts. When I was in Quesnel…. The city of Quesnel wants a community forest where some woodlot opera- tors also see an expansion opportunity for their opera- tion to go.

Of course, the member knows that not only BCTS has a competing interest on the land base. We run into forest and range agreements. We run into ma- jor licensees. When you have the issues about…. If you put it in a place where they can't economically mill it, then they say that you've made a bad choice where the woodlot goes or where whatever tenure it is goes. I guess you can best describe it as "welcome to our world." We have some issues that we have to deal with in the next number of months with regard to all these competing interests on the land base. We're going to work through them.

I don't have a pat answer for the member today, and I don't think I could find one, frankly. I think this is where the skills of our — I'm going to say this — very competent staff are going to find the solutions. N. Simons: Thank you, minister, for being here to answer questions. I just wanted to start off…. I'll speak specifically about Sechelt and the community forest application. Can the minister tell me the status of that application, in case there's confusion? Hon. R.

Coleman: I actually had a list yesterday when one of the members, I think it was the member for Nelson-Creston, was taking us through some issues around his community forests. I said, "In two weeks," on his, because I had enough information to be able to

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1239 say that in two weeks, he'l l have an answer. I don't have that same information in front of me on this one. However, any community I met with at UBCM that had the expression in, and we had identified a block….

I said that we would be trying to get those done as soon as possible, as the first wave came out, and then there would be a second wave that would come out. [1550] T h e c h a l l e n g e a s I d o t h a t i s I w a n t t o m a k e s u r e that however we're going to have them pay for their timber is economically viable short term, medium term and long term, because one of the biggest complaints of the community forest side has been that they get a community forest award and then it doesn't make any money because of how we calculate our stumpage or how much administration we put on it.

We're trying to do that body of work and to have that ready to go at the same time as those licences come out so that they'll know the actual bottom line for their economic oppor- tunity. I don't have it with me at the moment, but I will get that information to the member. N. Simons: Thank you, minister. I appreciate that. It's not essential specifically. I just wondered if there were some problems with the first application — if you happen to know if there's been a resubmission of an original application. Hon. R. Coleman: I don't think that's the case. I think what it probably is….

There was one call that sort of went out that some people had done a lot of work prior to. Then there was a call that said: "If you're inter- ested, let us know by lette r." One doesn't shut off the other. If they're in the system with regards to a com- munity forest, it would be treated the same as every- body else in the same manner. It is an objective to get a number of these out the door within the next number of weeks and some others out the door by the end of the year. I think we can get specific about yours by looking it up when I get the information to the mem- ber.

It's the same as the member from south Cariboo yesterday. He had some questions about something. When he wants the informat ion, I have that informa- tion to provide him with — to his questions. We'll get it to him — to his office is probably the easiest. N. Simons: Thank you. I respect the fact that there's a lot to cover in the ministry, and I understand that. Specifically, my concern is…. Well, I know that there's an application before the ministry for community for- ests. Is there any ministry oversight in terms of assess- ing the degree of community consultation — oversight by the ministry itself? Hon. R.

Coleman: We traditionally check that ei- ther one or two ways. We either go to the community or ask the community to conv ene a public meeting, or whatever, that shows the support for the application. Just so the member knows, Sechelt was given an invita- tion to apply, so that means they're one of the commu- nities that obviously had expressed some interest. The status of the application, though…. It was just an invi- tation to apply for a probationary community forest agreement that was made, and that's where it sits to- day. N. Simons: I just wanted to ensure….

I'm certainly in favour of the concept of community forest. I would like that to be on record. I'm just concerned that there have been some divisions that have arisen in the com- munity over the issue and whether or not certain areas have been included in that proposed area. I'm just hop- ing that eventually we'll ge t to the point where these kinds of conflicts are addressed before they arise. [1555] Maybe I can turn to an is sue facing both the upper coast and the lower coast, and it has to do with B.C. Timber Sales. What mechanism is in place, if any, to address community concerns over B.C.

Timber Sales — sale of…. Hon. R. Coleman: I'll just deal with the community forest side first, because the staff member that deals w i t h B . C . T i m b e r S a l e s i s o n h i s w a y . H e s h o u l d b e here shortly, and then I can address that. We've actually been known to turn down commu- nity forests if there's huge opposition in communities, because we do feel that if they're going to be called a community forest, it's something the community wants.

There are oftentimes, when you establish an area for community forests, certain areas of it that some people have a particular concern about that might be part of the annual cut. In those cases, we often will adjust the blocks to meet the concerns of the commu- nity on those discussions. The reason that it's sort of like, "Do you want to make an expression of interest to the community?" is that we're not going to even go out and put the call on top of people that don't want the community forests. So that's why when we do an invi- tation, it's strictly that.

It's an invitation to communities around the province that ar e interested in community forests to make that expression to us. In the member's area there are a number of compet- ing interests. There was a meeting recently with my ministry that I, unfortunately, was out of town for — it's being rescheduled — with the Sechelt Indian band. Chief Dixon and I will be meeting, I think sometime in November, on some of these i ssues too. It's an ongoing process in each one of these areas. I'll just see if I can get the answer to your Timber Sales question. Joining me is Grant Parnell, director of B.C. Timber Sales.

The other people in the House have been introduced as they revolved through in the last two or three days. Basically, what we do with B.C. Timber Sales is we have registrant meetings, which are people that are interested in bidding. They are open to the public, so any member of the public can attend any of those meet- ings. When we have specific issues in any area, we'll have what we refer to as an ad hoc meeting, but a bet- ter description is a public meeting. There was one at Roberts Creek — there was a public hearing recently, I

1240 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 think — and that's in the member's riding. There are some issues, and they're now reviewing the outcome of that meeting and looking at how it would affect what they think they can or cannot do up there. That has not been finalized. N. Simons: I thank the minister for his response. You addressed, again, your training as a law enforce- ment official and anticipated the next question. I'm doing my hon. friend imitation here. Thank you, Mr. Minister. My question is about consultation process for BCTS. Is there any way…?

Can the minister commit to allowing the people of the Sunshine Coast — and Pow- ell River area as well — a significant and actual role in the management of forests, especially in areas where there's residential interface? [1600] I'm talking about right now. The current situation is there's almost…. Maybe the minister even said it — that it is an ad hoc meetin g. There's no involvement in the planning, no consideration of water licence holders, recreational interests. Even the type of forestry being conducted is not always to the benefit of the commu- nity and all the values that exist in those communities.

So will the ministry and BCTS undertake thorough, meaningful consultation? Hon. R. Coleman: There are processes, but I should caution the member that we're dealing with Crown lands and forest development. We're not in the devel- opment business, which means we're not doing public hearings for subdivisions and that sort of thing. There are local processes that follow that. But we do forest development plans. They're cre- ated sometimes long before ever issuing a tender, usu- ally long before ever issuing a tenure to anybody. B.C. Timber Sales develops plans. So do licensees.

Those plans are then advertised to the public for input, and all resources are basically put together to try to inte- grate the concerns and the issues of the people that are in the area and the use of the land base. Some of the areas that we're talking about have both sides of forestry. It has the concern over where….

Some people feel they're concerned about the integra- tion of the forestry close to their homes that they've chosen to build on the Sunshine Coast, and it doesn't take very long, further up the Sunshine Coast, to see the importance of forestry to a community like Powell River, where if they don't have timber supply, they have difficulties for their pulp mill and other jobs that may be in a community. Our job is to try and strike the balance, and B.C. Timber Sales is acutely aware of some of the unique issues on the Sunshine Coast.

That's why they did have the public hearing, for instance, in Roberts Creek — I think it was. Yeah. As they do their resources now on all of this, it's looking down the road to possible ten- ures, and they're integrating all those pieces of infor- mation as they move forward. I think that's the role that they have on the land base with regard to that type of public input and professional forest management. B.

Simpson: To the minister: I've suggested that the member for Powell River–Sunshine Coast and I actu- ally try to arrange a meeting with the minister to brief him on some of the complexities of the issues there, because it is quite a complex array of concerns. [1605] Since the minister has br ought in the staffing for B.C. Timber Sales, I'll deal with that issue now. It strikes me that if the revitalization strategy and the clawback…. The public perception of the revitalization strategy and clawback was to get more small tenures out and to have more variety in the tenure system.

The public perception now — a n d I ' m s u r e t h i s i s n o s u r - prise to the minister or his staff — is that B.C. Timber Sales has made the Crown the largest licensee. It seems as though the key objective now is maximizing revenue to the Crown. I would point out, on page 25 of the service plan, it is actually an explicit metric in the service plan: "Opti- mize B.C. timber sales net revenue to the province." However, there are two other metrics at play here that people are expressing concerns about that may be jux- tapositioned in a way that is self-defeating.

The first is: "Provide a credible reference point for timber costs and pricing." How can you provide a credible reference point for timber costs and pricing while at the same time being driven to maximize reve- nue to the Crown? That's a question particularly on the coast, where the market pric ing system has been put in place, and I've heard expre ssions of concern that those seem to be conflicting metrics. An explanation from the minister on why those aren't conflicting would be help- ful. Hon. R.

Coleman: Well, first of all, the service plan says "optimize," not "maximize." I don't know whether I heard the member say maximize or optimize, but optimize is, obviously, to try to get value for pricing. Does it work? Boy, I would think the guys on the coast would say so. Market-based pricing on the coast…. Frankly, the price we're getting for stumpage today based on market-based pricing by B.C. Timber Sales is two-thirds of what we were getting two years ago. So the price of fibre is down.

Now, it's still not probably down with regards to some species, because we're not getting sales on things like hemlock and what have you — and we're looking at all of that now. But if we don't have some sort of pricing system…. The coast is actually a good example because then you go back into this very complex system. I don't want to go back to a complex stumpage system and then back into a waterbed issue. This was the whole goal — t o s o r t o f get out of that. We do about 600 total sales a year. I walked this through with, I think, one of your colleagues yesterday on the sizes and the amou nt, but it was….

About a third of them are small, and the next third are medium- sized tenders, and the next one, larger tenures. The

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1241 reason for that is to get an opportunity for those that wouldn't want to necessarily bid on, let's say, 100,000 cubic metres to be able to bid on 15,000 cubic metres, if that's what their needs were. They've increased sales each year at B.C. Timber Sales since 2001, moving from nine million to over 15 million cubic metres this fiscal year. This volume is being sold in about 600 different sales ranging from 2,500 cubic metres to over 100,000 cubic metres.

Of the 600 total sales, 225 are planned to be under 15,000 cubic metres, and over 100 are under 10,000 cubic metres. [1610] B. Simpson: I k n o w t h e w o r d i s o p t i m i z e . T h a t ' s what I read, because I read it into the record. But if you look at the actual performance measures used, one is Crown net revenue from B.C. Timber Sales, and the other is average cost per cubic metre. Those are standard business measures. So in standard business measures, what happens, whether intended or not, is you maxi- mize revenue, and you get costs down.

While the word "optimize" might be there, you get what you measure. The generalized concern among folks is that over time what will happen with B.C. Timber Sales — be- cause of the control that the Crown has, independent of other licensees, over stumpage, over when they put the bids out, over what they do with zero-bid situations — is that they can float the available timber out when they want to.

The Crown has a lot more control over the conditions under which they float these licences out than other operators do, and what I'm hearing on the coast is a generalized concern that this could trend away from the intent, particularly when you have two business metrics which people are measured to — one to maximize revenue, and one to reduce costs. Again to the minister: one of the things I have heard — and I'm just conscious of time, so I'll fast-track this to get to the point….

The service plan indicates that we're going to look at carrying this into the inte- rior, which was always the intent — to move from the coast to the interior. Prior to doing that, will the Minis- ter of Forests commit to an independent review outside his ministry?

Bring somebody in, and go around and get some data on how this is really working and what the generalized concerns are from a wide range of peo- ple, so that the program, if it's intended to continue and to go into the interior, can be fine-tuned, the concerns can be dealt with, and it can go into the interior with- out these concerns then being realized there. Hon. R. Coleman: I've got two explanations for the member on the two subjects. I'll get back to the service plan side here in a second. W e h a v e a T i m b e r S a l e s A d v i s o r y C o u n c i l .

T h e Timber Sales Advisory Council receives input from both the forest sector and its customer needs. B.C. Tim- ber Sales struck an advisory council to provide a for- mal forum for key industry stakeholders to jointly con- sider issues and emerging opportunities as well as the efficacy of current operational policies and procedures or practices. [1615] The members are drawn widely from the forest sector, including independent loggers, which includes the interior loggers association; the truck loggers; the Northwest Logg

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1026pm-07
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1026pm 07
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d34f65e7ccf2437da4263bd27e5992d45b1994f7

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