VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, ARPIL 21, 1978 NO. 37

April 21, 1978, Tape 1331, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! On behalf of hon. members I should like to welcome sixty-eight students from Grade IX classes of Mary Queen of the World School on Topsail Road accompanied by their teachers,Mr. Lavigne and Mrs. Hall. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming these student~ to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER MOORES : The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I have two statements today.

First, it gives me great pleasure to announce the government has decided to appoint a task force to study the implications of declining enrollments in elementary, secondary education in the Province. I might say at this time, Sir, that the Minister of Education and his officials have worked very diligently on this and have been together with myself in contact with the NTA and other interested groups who concur with the setting up of the task force under the terms and conditions which I am about to announce. The terms of reference of this study will include the following.

Number one, an examination of the quality of education in the light of declining enrollments with particular reference to the following: (1) the allocation of teachers and professional staff, the school boards and their deployment and utilization within educational districts; (2) existing educational programmes; (3) operational grants and the formula for distributing them to school boards; (4) the provision and utilization of classroom facilities; • I

April 21, 1978, Tape 1331, Pagw 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: (5) teacher supply and teacher training; (6) post-secondary education. Number two, a survey of declining enrollments by school district and the impact of this decline on individual school programmes, class size, teacher deployment and class and grade organization in each school district for the year 1978-79. We are suggesting, Sir, that report containing this data be submitted by June 30th of this year.

Number three, the formulation of recommendations concerning appropria.te and realistic courses of action which government and administrative groups in education should adopt in order to take advantage of the declining emrollments to improve the quality of education in our Province. I am also very pleased to announce that two very distinguished Newfoundland educators have agreed to undertake the study for us. They are Dr. Frank Riggs, head of the Department of Curriculum from the Education Faculty of Memorial University, and Dr.

Bob Crocker 1 who is in charge of the Institute for Educational Research and Development at Memorial. These two gentlemen will constitute the task force and begin their study within the next few days in accordance with the terms of reference indicated. To assist them in their work 1 appropriate arrangements will be made for adequate support staff including research assistants. As they proceed with this assignment they will be inviting submission from interested groups and individuals who have a point of view to put forward.

I would emphasize that every necessary step will be taken to ensure that interested parties are given every opportunity to make their proposals or recommendations to the task force.

April 21, 1978, Tape 1331, Page 3 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. W.N.ROWE: Hear, hear! The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the Premier and the government have finally bent to the public pressure brought upon them to bring in this task force to look into the quality and standards of education in the F'rovince. It has been asked for by ourselves and members of the public, and · members of the various professions associated with educatioq. I am glad now that the government has decided,finally, to do something.

Our position, Sir, has been made quite clear and that is that until the results of a task force and enquiry on education are brought in and made public 1 there should be no cuts of any kind in the field of education - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W.N.ROWE: -that it is_hypocritical to make cuts in the number of teachers, to make cuts to the university requiring the raising of tuition, to raise the amount which students have to borrow in order to go to university and so on and so forth.

It is hypocritical to do that, Sir, because it is a little like sentencing a man to execution or to life imprisonment first and then having the trial afterwards. Let us have the trail first, let us find out what the situation is - MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order has come up. The han. Leader of the Opposition is allowed to make certain comments, he is not allowed to enter into the realm of debate. And may I draw to his attention that the report must be in by June, so tnat ne Wl I I not, even if he is in debate, tne first part of it- MR.

NEARY: The cuts are being made now. MR. SPEAKER: On the point of order, I would point out that after a Ministerial Statement the only

Arpil 21, 1978 , Tape 1331., Page 4 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: remarks allowed are comments and requests for explanation . Debate on the substantive issue is not peDmitted at this time. MR. W.N.ROWE: Right . Quite correct, Mr . Speaker. What I am doing is making a comment, Sir, and I am leading up to a question that I am going to put to the Premier on the statement which he just made . '!',

April 21, 1978, Tape l332, Page 1 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: I say that we should not have the sentence first and the trail afterwards, we should have the enquiry first and then we should decide on what to do.

And I am asking the Premier this question, whether he on behalf of the government will consent to stop the teachers' layoff, for example, to increase the amount to the university to allow them to continue in a normal way without raising tuitions; if he will make sure that school boards do not have to undertake a substantially larger portion of the cost of operating school buses7 if he will make sure that the student loans are not raised, and student tuition is not raised and so on and so forth until such time - all these matters - until such time as the report, the results of this enquiry, this task force are, in fact, in the hands of the government and full study has been made of it?

That is a reasonable, rational request, Mr. Speaker. And secondly, Sir, I do not want to cast any aspersions at all on the two gentlemen named as forming the task force because I am sure that they are excellent men from the university, excellent men, but, Mr. Speaker, there are more people concerned about education in this Province than two university professors or the university of this Province. What about some representation from the trade schools? What about some representation from the parents who have the greatest vested interest on behalf of their children and students? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

W.N.ROWE: What about some representation on the task force from the school boards who, I would say, are perhaps second in order or priority, second only to the parents when it comes to the provision of basic education in this Province? MR. NEARY: A white-wash job.

April 21, 1978, Tape 1332, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: I say, Sir, the task force should be enlarged to include some intelligent, rational concerned representatives of other groups in society who have a grave concern and an interest in making sure that the quality of education in this Province is not allowed to diminish and that the standard will continue to go up. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: PREMIER MOORES: Hear, hear! The hon. the Premier. Ah,sit down boy, sit down! Mr. Speaker, I also have another statement to make this morning.

I have a statement to make which I believe will be of great interest to the people of our Province. I believe that the announcement is, to date, the most significant we have made in the history of the Province since Confederation, as far as the fishery is concerned. There are.actually two specific announcements contained in the statement which I am about to make and I will be dealing with both in detail. However, I would like to make a few brief remarks before getting into the specifics of the announcements.

Hon. members will recall that in the Budget Speech a great deal of emphasis was placed upon the future growth and development of the Newfoundland fishing industry. It was indicated that the fishing industry is one of the bright spots in Newfoundland's economic future and that the fishery contained the greatest potential for economic growth and progress. As well, the Budget Supplement stated that the fishery - over the next five years - will be the most dynamic sector of the Provincial economy.

It outlined a shift in Government policy from one of supporting a marginal industry to the fostering of a viable industry, capable of independently financing its operational and expansion requirements. Government's role over the next five years will be both supportive and developmental and the ·-

April 21, 1978, Tape 1332, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: financial assistance programmes - which I will be announcing today - are in keeping with this approach . I might add here that private sector confidence in the future of the industry is very strong and we expect a large infusion of private investment in new facilities over the next five years. As a first step in achieving a strong and viable fishing industry, t he Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is pleased to announce further expansion in our programme of fishery development .

This programme is directed toward the modernization and expansion of necessary catching and processing capacity which will be required as the fishery resource is renew and regenerated. The opportunities that are presented to us are,and these opportunities arise,because of the expanded 200- mile limit which gives us ~reater control over the supply of fish in our waters.

April 21, 1978, Tape 1333, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES : In addition, the availability of bouyant world markets for our fish provides a strong encouragement for expansion of the industry. As foreign effort is withdrawn and as stocks are regenerated,there will be an abundant supply of fish to the Newfoundland fishing industry. There will be opportunities for further processing and there will be new species to be exploited. We are convinced that, with proper development policies, Newfoundl.and can become the world capitalof the fishing industry and it is our intent in Government to pursue this aim. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: It is recognized that over the past several years, due largely to depletion of fish stocks, that the financial returns in the industry have been inadequate to allow for very much new investment. The low financial return in the industry was not ad.equate to ensure that fishing operators in the Province have a strong financial base from which to meet the challenge of the next five years. If steps are not taken to create the necessary financial environment for expansion of the fishing industry, then the full growth potential will not be realized.

Government therefore takes the position that construction and development of new facilities must be undertaken now in anticipation of regenerated resource stocks. If we are to fully displace foreign activity and foreign effort in the fishing industry then we shall have to take an aggressive approach. We are therefore happy to announce today a new programme which is intended to give the necessary financial support immediately so as to lay a firm foundation for future expansion. What this AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

PREMIER MOORES: What this means is that the the fishing industry will be given the necessary support now rather than later, while laying the ground work to ensure that the industry becomes financially self-reliant as financial

April 21, 1978, Tape 1333, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES : returns improve. I would like to stress that this programme is supplemental to existing financial programmes and is not intended to to replace other programmes that exist to fill a demonstrated need. These programmes, of course, include regional development incentive grants from DREE, loans from the Newfoundland Development Corporation, financial assistance through the Department of Rural Development. as well as the newly announced loan programme for processing equipment.

This new programme is intended to ensure that firms in the fishing industry can obtain the necessary financing from commercial financial institutions on acceptable terms. Such financing should be available on terms which will allow these firms to develop now, as I say, rather than later. The programme is designed to ensure that the prime responsibility will remain with the operator. The responsibility for arranging financing and for repayment will be the concern of the operators.

Government's ·role will be one of providing a guarantee to the lender over an interim period until the industry is capable of generating sufficient financial returns to sustain development and growth without Government support. The financial assistance, I am happy to announce, will be proviuea in the form of what is known as deficiency guarantee. In general terms, a deficiency guarantee means that the Province is prepared to guarantee that the lender will be reimbursed in the event of default.

Government is prepared to guarantee that in the event that the firm cannot meet its financial commitments and should the lender be unable to recover the loan,then the Province will, as a last resort, provide reimbursement. In addition to this new policy of financial assistance to the industry, I am pleased to announce a specific application of this policy dealing

April 21, 1978, Tape 1333, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: with a well established Newfoundland firm. I might say, Sir, at this point that this programme is available to all companies in the industry and not,as has been the case for far too many years, of each company being dealt with individually under different types of programmes. This programme applies to all the fishing companies in the Province so that they can compete with national and international companies on a financial basis.

However, before getting into this aspect of the announcement,I would like to make a comment on a number of features contained in this new programme which are designed to strengthen the fishing industry and to provide appropriate assistance to those companies which wish to expand. The main terms of the new programme are:

(1) The firm will negotiate the-terms of the proposed financing directly with the bank or other financial institution and this will be done in joint consultation with the Province;

(2) The deficiency guarantee will be for a period not longer than five years from the date of completion of the capital expansion being financed, although the financing may be for a longer period of time. In other words, it is anticipated that as the industry recovers,the need for a Government guarantee will be eliminated and Government can withdraw its support and allow the private sector to continue on on its own.

(3) Again, in the same spirit 1 the deficiency guarantee will be reduced on a sliding basis which will be faster than the rate of repayment of the loan. This reflects the growing strength of the private sector;

April 21, 1978, Tape 1333, Page 4 -- apb PREMIER MOORES:

(4) In these return for these guarantees, Government will charge a reasonable service fee for taking the risk asso ciat ed with this new programme and the operato r will be asked to apy a few which is not greater than 1 per cent of the total amount involved; and,

(5) It is understood that the operator concerned must be able to demonstrate the ability to repay the loans over the period projected. Also, it will be a requirement that each firm provides adequate security which is satisfactory both to the lender and to the Province .

April 21, 1978, Tape 1334, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: The purpose of this programme therefore is to enable companies in the fishing business to borrow at a favourable interest rate with the hope that,when the guarantee has been lifted, the borrower and the lender will be able to continue their relationship without further Government support. The programme is intended to make loans available, to finance capital expansion plans and to provide the necessary working capital for successful business operation and expansion.

The intent of this programme is to help companies that have basically sound ideas and want to expand so as to meet the challenges presented by the fishing industry potential in the future. I am pleased, Sir, to announce that the first application of this policy is a proposal presented to Government by Fishery Products Limited and at the same time announce that the Company plans to carry out a major expansion of its fishing operations in the Province. This expansion will be under­ taken during the next three years and will create 640 new jobs, most of which will be on a permanent basis. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: Fishery Products Limited, I might add, is the largest private employer in the fishing industry in Newfoundland with a total work force of 4000 and a total of eight major fish plants. With regard to Fishery Products Limited, the Newfoundland Government has given its approval for a major refinancing package whereby the Company will be provided with $25 million (U.S.) or $28 million (Canadian) loaned by the Bank of Nova Scotia which will be partially guaranteed by the Province through this new financing programme, the details of which I have just outlined.

April 21, 1978, Tape 1334, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: Fishery Products Limited began operations in Newfoundland in 1940 and since that time it has grown to become the largest fish catching and processing operation in the Province. Indeed, it is one of he largest fishery enterprises in Canada. In addition to its eight plants,the company has a modern fleet of deep-sea trawlers. The $28 million loan will be guaranteed under the new financial package and the money will be used for capital expansion as well as to strengthen the working capital position of the Company.

I might also say that as part of this arrangement, the company will repay certain debts, including the $1.8 million owed to the Province and it will redeem the $3 million in preference shares in the Company now held by the Province, which means that it is the first time in over thirty years that the Company will not have any direct debts with the Government of Newfoundland.

The financial package will not only strengthen the Company's working capital position but it will give in the short-term flexibility which it requires in order to withstand the many fluctuations in the industry, as well as to finance increasing inventories required for the expanded business. The Company, as a result of this guarantee, will be able to carry out its expansion now rather than have to wait a number of years to build up the necessary capital. Government's approval of this financial proposal represents a withdrawal of Government's involvement with Fishery Products.

Upon the completion of this project, Fishery Products will no longer have any direct debts owing to the Government nor will Government hold shares in the Company. Instead, this financial guarantee enables the Company to secure its financial requirements directly from the bank without the

April 21, 1978, Tape 1334, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: direct involvement of Government, through loan or equity participation, I am sure all hon. members will be pleased to learn that this guaranteed loan is completely secured in view of the fact that Fishery Products has provided a first mortgage on 14 trawlers which have been appraised recently at more than $29 million. In addition, the guarantee by the Province is secured by first mortgages upon various fixed assets belonging to the Company.

In accordane with Government's new polic~ the Province's guarantee will be reduced at a much faster rate than repayment of the debt. In other words, as the resources continue to recover and as the Company becomes more profitable it will be able to shoulder a larger share of the financial buren. Therefore, the Province will be able to accelerate its withdrawal as the fishing industry recovers so that the private sector, and Fishery Products in this case in particular, will be in a position of financial independence.

Through this process of gradual withdrawal, banks and other lending institutions will be assuming their proper role without looking to Government for continued support. If the Company meets present expectations for financial success, then the Province's guarantee on the new financing will no longer be required after 1984, when the company will be completely on its own. The guarantee will be withdrawn in 1984 although the loan does not have to be repaid until 1989. I would like to make it clear that the guarantee to be provided by the Province is not a full guarantee but rather a deficiency guarantee.

This means that Government will only be obliged to make certain installment payments on the loan should the Company be unable to make them. I might say, Mr. Speaker, this is not shovelling Government money out at all, it is guaranteeing

April 21, 1978, Tape 1334, Page 4 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: an industry which is viable in this Province, which is necessary in this Province and obviously, which the Opposition are not in favour of . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right! Right! Hear, hear!

April 21,1978 Tape :<o. 1335 AH-1 PRE.'!IER MOORES: ~r. Speaker, I would like to make it abundantly clear that the primary purpose of this programme is to allow all Newfoundland companies to compete with fishing companies everywhere with the understanding that these companies are economically viable. Mr. Speaker, that concludes the formal part of my statement, However, I will be only to happy to answer questions. I will be with Fishery Products Limited having a new conference later in the morning.

I might say, Sir, in the way of information that in the expansion programmes it is the equivalent of eight new plants, eight major new plants being constructed in the Province,and with that and the jobs that it is going to create and getting ready for the future in this iudustry,it is unfortunate that the Opposition do not agree with that particular stand. SOl-IE HON • MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. W.ROWE: Hear, hear! Hon. Leader of the Opposition. What a con job. The Premier has a sense of humour. I have heard it all now, Sir, I have heard it all now.

I believe 1crockl is the proper word to characterize this particular announcement. It was a bit difficult to follow, Sir, in that the first half of the announcement pretended to be proposing a programme, a revoluntionary programme on the fisheries to the Newfoundland people.

It turns out, Sir, as the programme unfolds that a deal has already been struck with Fishery Products Limited; before the announcement was ever made publicly about a programme going into existance,the deal is already struck, a deal already made,and this House is treated as usual with the contempt which we have grown to expect from the government. He comes in here and gives the programme MR. HICKMAl'l: MR. SPEAKER: !1K. tiiCK.'IA..": l1r. Speaker. Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is

April 21,1973 Tape No. 1335 AH-2 HR. HICI<l·IAN: debating again. We know he feels it is a crock, he is stuck with that world forever, he will regret it before the day is over. l-1R. W.ROWE: I will not regret it, Sir, I will use a few more words as well. MR. SPEAKER: Actually I wss going to intervene myself to repfat the rule and to point out that the only comments allowed now are general comments, requests for explanations,but not debate and not the developments of reasons for disagreement or the things that constitute debate. l-!R.. W. ROWE : Hon. Leader of the Opposition. Right, Sir, absolutely correct ruling.

Sir, the point I was making was that it would have been a courteous thing for the Premier to tell us and the people of Newfoundland wh4t the programme was before a deal was struck. Now perhaps, we do not know, we are hearing this for the first time, this may be a good thing. SOME HON. NEHBERS: l-!R.. SPEAKER: }!R.. lv. ROWE: Oh, oh! Order, please! I do know tais, Sir, that the programme announced by the Pr~ier is a crock, a deal has been struck with Fisheries Products Limited, Mr.

Speaker, a deal is struck Which might be good, it might be bad, nobody knows,but the programme,which the Premier had the face to come in and say is now in existance some days or weeks or months, we do not know, after a deal has already been struck, that, Sir, is a farce and a crock. SOME HON. MEMBERS: l-!R.. W. ROiolE: Hear, hear: And I will say it again, and again, and again. Coming in here, Sir, and talking about getting rid of foreign involvement in the fishery and at the same time the Premier is acting for the main spokesman for Nordsee in trying to get them in here in Harbour Grace and so on.

The hypocrisy 0f it, Sir, !s revolting. MR. SIMMONS : },ow many shares, 1 Frank, 1 huw 111anv sharl!s have you got, boy? SOME HON. HEJ-!BERS: oh: oh:

April 21, 1978 HR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 1335 A point of order. A point of order. AH - 3 HR. HI CIOIAN: I could not help but overhear the comment made by the hon. member for Burgeo-LaPoile - SOXE HON. HEMBERS: Oh! Oh! MR. NEARY: Not LaPoile, not LaPoile. AN HON. MEMBER: Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. :-rn.. HICKMAN: Burgee-Bay d' Espoir (Mr. Simmons) - rlR. NEARY: That is better. Get your facts straight. rlR. HI CKMA.l'l : - and I would ask that he withdraw it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The point brought up is that the remarks with respect to how many shares, and then there was an immediately previous mention of Nordsee, and there is an imputation there which I am sure the hon. gentleman would not wish to leave and I would ask him to withdraw it. MR. SU!HONS: Hr. Speaker, I was a little b·it late coming in and I wanted to say 'Good Morning' to the Premier and I asked him a fair question but if it is unparliamentary I withdraw it. It was a fair question nevertheless. PREl·!IER HOORES: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. I do not think the hon. member had the floor in order to ask the question.

Just to get the record straight I have no shares in any fishing company in this province. I do not even have shares in trailer courts - HR. NEARY: liow about land holdings? PREHIER HOORES: at fixed rates. HR. SPEAKER: - where the trailers were bought from the government Order, please! These matters are really peripheral and the whole procedure on Statements by Hinisters and the type of comments which come thereafter will be put into total disarray if hon. members persist. rne hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. !'!.ROWE: Sir, I would like to finish my few remarks, factual statements and comments.

I hope, Sir, that Fishery Products is able

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1335 MR. I~.N. ROWE: to e~pand and continue the development of the fishery in the Province. Hy own district, Twillingate district, has a plant down there being run by Fishery Products which I understand may be expanded, I hope will be expanded to accommodate the needs of the fishermen in the area. I hope Ali- 4

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1336 N:I - 1 HR. W.N. ROIVE: that will take place. What I am saying about this particular programme, Sir, is that there seems to be very little in it wh-ich is different from what has been done in the past, namely,the former administration and other administrations in this Province helping out the fishing industry. That was done for "twenty-five years and now this government is coming around to doing the same thing. But where the farce comes into it, ~l:r.

Speaker, and where there is an attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the Newfoundland people is trying to characterize this as some great new universal programme when in effect it is a deal made between the government and a specific codfishing company and then in order to, as my hon. friend said in another context yesterday, in order to give it a sugary coating the Premier comes in and comes out with some wishy-washy motherhood ideals with regard to the fishery, including, Sir, a statement - PREMIER MOORES : Guarantee - l!R.. W .N.

RmVE: - Sir, for the last year and a half, or two years I personally, and members of this Party, have been talking about turning around the fishery in Newfoundland and making Newfoundland and Labrador the world capital of the fishing industry. Let us have that aim in mind and that view in mind. Now we hear finally­ ~- NEARY: ~- W.N.

ROIVE.: Not band-aid - - a statement made by the Premier in which he himself has seized upon this buzzword, Again, Sir, they have been goaded into trying to put forward,promulgate to the Newfoundland and Labrador people some semblance of a policy, even taking over the ~uzzwords of the Opposition, even taking over the slogans of the Liberal Party in an effort to put something forward to the Newfoundland people. ~ybe this is a good thing, Sir, and we will have to study the document and I will have to have enquiries, talk to the industry to see if this is a good thing. I hope it means that expansion of plans

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1336 llR. lol. N. ROWE: can take place. lfuen the Premier and the government strikes a deal with a particular fishing company, I let him not come in here, Sir, and try to make it look as if it is some.brand new programme, stealing even the slogans and policies of the Liberal Party Opposition in an effort N!l - 2 to pull the wool over the eyes of the people of this Province. SOME HON. !·!EMBERS : Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Justice. :·IR. HICKHA.J.": Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to announce that as was undertaken in the Budget, the government has completed its study of the feasibility of exempting school boards throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, and Memorial University of Newfoundland, from paying retail sales tax on electricity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! llR.

HICK.'1A.J.": In light of the recent increases granted Newfoundland Light and Power, and in light of the budgetary constraints placed of necess~ty on school boards in the Province, and Memorial University, I am ple~sed and proud to announce that effective July 1st, 1978, school boards throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, and Memorial University of Newfoundland, will be exempt from paying retail sales tax on all electricity consumed. This action by government will result in an annual saving to school boards of $400,000 and to Memorial University of Newfoundland of $125,000. Sm1E HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! HR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. HR. NO~: Hr. Speaker, I rise in response to the announcement just made by our hon. friend opposite, the Hinister of Finance, ~linister of Justice, and House Leader, etc., to say how pleased we are obviously to see that the sales tax has been removed from heating for ~!emorial University and also for the school boards. We have had enormous n=bers of representations, all members on this side

April 21, 1978 Tape No. ~336 m-1- 3 MR.. NOLAN: aJ:Ici I am sure members opposite, from members of sc,ho.ol boards and also the government now is obviously crumbling under massive pressure that even they ca~~ recognize, from fishermen, from farmers Where they have had to backtrack, now from Uemorial,where we have talked about this before, and from the school boards, already so heavily, dreadfully burdened that they too have got to look for new sources of revenue and they have to operate, as we all do, in the highest tax area in all of Canada.

So what we have t'.ow is an obvious back up, backing up and backtracking by the government,who walked foolishly into one of the most massive financial messes ever put on anyone's plate in any Province in Canada. The shame that lliU.st be experienced by some of the people opposite surely will drive some of them, if not to walk over here with the Liberal, at least to go independent, go somewhere but do not stay where you are now because you are in real trouble. And maybe it should be led by the,Minister of Finance. Sm!E HON. MD!BERS: !lear, h ear~

April 21, 1978 Tape 1337 EC - l !lR. SPEAKER: The hon. the ~inister of Finance. MIL HIC10!AN: Well, !1r. Speaker, I do not know if the Opposition are for or against that, I have to put them down as doubtful. ~r. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that negotiations have been completed for a $30 million private placement by the Newfoundland Municipal Finance Corporation. AN HON. HEHBER: i:!R. HICK! ~AN: Sear, hear! The issue has been arranged by the Province's fiscal agents, Byrne, Fry Limited and A. E. Aimes and Company Limited and is being placed privately with a small group of Canadian investors.

The corporation debentures will provide for an annual sinking fund of two per cent with an interest~eld of ten and three-eights per cent priced with a discount of ninety-nine and one-half per cent, yield 10.43. This issue marks the first long term financing by the Newfoundland ~!unicipal Finance Corporation since September, 1976. The issue is scheduled to close on Hay 3rd with the corporation receiving the proceeds on that date. I know that municipalities who are seeking inprovements, water and se wer, etc. will be very grateful for that. SOME HON . M E~BERS: Hear, hear! }fR .

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. !'!R . SH!!'!O~lS: Mr. Speaker, I am not even sure what the minister said. He has a way when he is saying something that he is kind of embarrassed b y of lowering his head - SO ~ E HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

April 21, 1978 MR. SIHHONS: chest and mumbling away. Tape 133 7 EC - 2 - resting his chin on his I am not sure what he said, but I got part of the drift of it. He said '$30 million' and he said 'municipalities' and he said 'most assuredly'. SmfE HO~<. HEXBERS: Oh, oh! :1R. SH!HONS: So, Mr. Speaker, most assuredly, we welcome any help this government can give to municipalities. The absence of such help has been so prominent that anything they can do over there will be significant. :1R. NEARY: But this is the paper (inaudible) is being done. MR. S IHMONS : But, Mr.

Speaker, I sense the announcement for what I heard of it,and I admit I did not get the full drift of it, it sounds like a $30 million borrowing for the Y-unicipal Finance Corporation, if that is what, indeed, it is. That is what it is, is it fellows? Is that what he is saying? AN HON. :1El·!BER: Yes, Approximately the same amount they pay in interest (inaudible). ~!R. snmoNs: Yes, that is right.

So if it is for work that is already done, well,of course, what is the minister taking the time of the House for at all? - the same old desperation tactic that is becoming the hallmark of the administration, particularly since their present Minister of Finance took over. ~!R. NEARY: HR. S I:!}!ONS: for announcers. Hear, hear! They are desperate over there One day last week they had a diarrhea - nine ministers on the same day - they forgot it was not Private ~embers day or something. longer, ~r. Speaker - But how much T

April 21, 1978 Tape 1337 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) now what is your - MR. ~ICKMAN: I am the only parliamentarian in the free world who has got tired of party whips. Now what is your - SO~E RON. ~EMBERS: !·~R. SIHMONS: Oh, oh! The minister's sources are as good as ever, Mr. Speaker, but no better than ever. MR. NOLAN: that. (Inaudible) ·~oger' make him withdraw ~~R. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: }!R. NOLAN: No, that is not worth - Order, please! I mean, he is supposed to demonstrate justice and fair play. l·!R. SPEAKER: If one han. gentleman speaks at a time it will be beneficial.

I would ask the han. gentleman if he has not concluded to conclude - perhaps he has, I am not sure. Bu-t I would ask other han. members not to interject. HR. Sn!HONS: Now what did I do? What did I do? I am here trying to make a few remarks, the deposed Whip for the party over here trying to make a few remarks, being attached from all angles, Mr. Speaker. I would much rather be the deposed Whip than the undeposed, bungling House Leader for the government side, At least some people know when to step down, when they are beaten, when it is time to give up and take on some other job. AN HON. HE~·!llER: \-le can - MR.

S I~1}10NS: l!r. Speaker, we welcome the announcement of the Government House Leader whatever it was he said. SnHE BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

April 20 , 1 978 Tape 1337 EC - 4 ORAL QUESTI Ot:S :1R . SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Op posi tion. ~R . H . N . ROtvE: Shoul d ther e not be som ethin g in t h e Orders of the Day? Resigna tio ns of minist e rs or son ethi ng? Oh, oh! ~!R. il . ~i . r.OtJE: I am al~a ys expe ctin g to ~ear You r Hon our say it. ~! R . SH!HONS: Perhaps the Prem ier should tell us who has not res ig ne d ye t today. ~!R . H . N. RO~IE: ~ r. Spe a ker , I wou ld like to di rec~ a ques tion to the hon . the Premier, who has g race d again our assembly with his p r esen c e today. SO~! E HON . !!EHBER S: ~!R • ·W.

N • ROl-lE : ~. ::fEARY: Hear, h ear! It is so unusual, Sir . Only fo r half an hour though, that is all. He wil l be g one now in a few minutes - :IR . H. ::;. ROUE : "h en t ~ e Speaker says, ' Admit strangers,' in comes the Pre mier . MR . NEARY: - gone down with his buddy, Et ch e g ar y , and Monroe. :IR . H . N . ROI~E: Xr . Speaker, I would like t o ask t he Premier, since I h av e ~O tten nowhe re with hi s colleagues, the ~iniste r of Health or the ~inister of Rehabili t ation and Rec reat ion, concer ning

April 21, 1978 Tape 1338 mr- 1 MR. W.N. ROWE: the tabling of documents or giving of information concerning of " alle~ed scandalous activities surrounding Exon Rouse, Mr. Speaker, and the need for a public inquiry ·~d for two or three weeks now have assurances and promises made by two hon. ministers that they were going to table in this House documentation concerni~g the hiring practices of one Syrett when he was hired on as the administrator of Exon House and,secondly,documents concerning the procedures undergone when he was hired on as the Director of Medical Records at the C',eneral Hospital.

Nothing, Sir, no information, no documentation,no nothing!so I ask the hon. the Premier will he undertake to give a commitment to this Rouse to direct his colleagues to provide that docunentation forthwith? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all regarding the

preamble of the hon. Leader of the Opposition's remarks about my attendance in the House. As a matter of fact I think he will find if he checks the record that I have been here for·more Question Periods than he has. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, Rear! HR. NEARY: We all know your attendance record when you were up in rttawa. PREMIER ~IOORES : I was certainly here last week when he was in Quebec City at the very prominent Liberal Convention,and of course everyone has to go to Quebec City for their party conventions,and I suppose PEI and ~herever else there is one. But - A\1!

RON. }!EMBER: PRn!IER MOORES: AN RON • HE11BER: PREMIER MOORES: "!R. HICKMA.'<; PREMIER· MOORES : probably find that y=:J. SOHE RON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) Pardon? Are you saying something or what? You are misleading the House. I am misleading the House? On what? On a point of order. I said if he would check the record you will Oh, Oh! PRm!IER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I am trying to get the question that the Leader of the Opposition asked. I would refer it to my two

April 21, 1978 Tape 1338 DW - 2 PREMIER MOORES: colleagues,the Minister of Rehabilatation and Recreation and the Minister of Health,who I think are in a position to respond. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, if I may respond to the hon.

Leader of the Opposition with regard to the ~mploymert practices which were in place and which were used in employing the gentleman to which the hon. member refers, I indicated a few days ago that the hospital referred to,the General,is operatad t"Oder the provisions of the General Hospital Corporation Act,which is similiar to the Hospitals Act in that the administration derives their powers from the board under the legislation and are in control of hirirg and firing of staff. I have discussed the matter with administration of the hospital for the job which Mr.

Syrett was hired,Patients Records Manager.Ar., advertisement was placed in local papers, advertisements,'were also placed in the national hospital journals across the country. A selection panel was set up, two senior members of the administration as well as the personnel director. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that this gentleman referred to came out as number one of sixteen applications received. References were obtained from his previous employer,which was the Wellesley Hospital in Toronto,where the gentleman had a good record and was highly recommended.He had three courses in terms of hospital administration.

Now, Mr. Speaker, as far as I can determine every­ thing was completely above board to refute what has been coming from the Opposition that there is hanky-panky going on, two senior members of the administrative staff plus the personnel director of the General Hospital. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say something else:the board of governors of the General Hospital in this city possibly ranks as one of the strongest,most capable hospital boards across Canada and certainly the administration which they put in place speaks for itself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, Hear! MR. W.N. ROWE: A supplementarv. }lr. Soeaker.

MR. SPEftKER : A supplementary, the original questioner .

April 21' 1978 Tape 1338 DW - 3 ~!R. W. N. ROl<E: Sir , the ability of this gov~rnment and chat minister particularly ~o drag a red herring, a red whale across the question, Sir, is _simply amazing. Nobody questions the competence , the abilicy,the dedication of the Board of Governors of t he General Rospital.

I am trying to find out~as are we all,and members of the media,p r~s~ rublic what kind of scandalous activities went on with regard to certain government institutions,particularly with regard to hiring practices , and to get to the root of this particularly what ~nt on in Exon House ,now under the control of the hon. minist~r-now involved in an animated conversation and t otally unconcerned,apparently-to get to the bot t oc of i t, Sir ,

April 21, 1978 Tape 1339 PK - 1 Mr. W. Rowe: we have been trying to trace the chain of hiring of this particular gentleman. And it is not enough, Sir, for a minister to get up in that kind of a way, Sir, the partisan, polemic type of way he has chosen to do so,to assure us that everything was all right. It is not enough. The public of this Province demands a public enquiry into these matters.

And I now ask a question of the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation:when is he going to table the documentation and other information concerning the hiring of the former Administration of Exon House so we can see what went on there, vr. Speaker? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I will table the document right now. How is that for action? AN RON. MEMBER: That is performance. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, - MR. DINN: Take one foot out and put the other in. MR.

HICKEY: - I told my han. friends opposite that I would table them when I was able to and when I was ready to. I have not been ready to until now. As a matter of fact,I was not ready to table them during the appropriate time. AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. HICKEY: So let the han. gentleman not indicate, you know, that we have just held them back deliberately or anything. Mr.

Speaker, I table first of all a copy of the advertisement which called for applications for the position of Administrator of Exon House; the request to the Public Service Commission for the filling of that position; the application by one, David Syrett, which goes into detail as to his background, his academic standing, his various experiences, and quite a resume of all of the positions that he had, which I am sure after han. gentlemen

April 21, 1978 Tape 1339 PK - 2 Mr, Hickey: read will be self-explanatory. A document signed by Miss Eleanor Maddick to the Chairman of the Public Service Commission in relation to the appointment. The appointment of Mr. Syrett has been approved. A reference, Sir, one written reference ~ I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I think I skipped something here - han. gentlemen when they go through the documents will see that in the resume of Mr.

Syrett there are some names given as references and they will find two of them 1which are local, ticked off with a tick opposite their names, and a notation which says, Positive references or good references,and those references were gotten by telephone by the Public Service. And also a double check by my department before the final choice was made.

Of particular significance, and the only written reference which is on file either at the Public Service or my department,is one from the Wellesley Hospital which I am told is one of the largest hospitals in Ontario, the Toronto area, and that is the only written reference which is on file. And, Mr. Speaker, I would like to read this into the record because I think it is of some significance. It is addressed to Mr. M. O'Keefe, Assistant Director, General Hospital,Forest Road, St. John's, Newfoundland. "Re Mr.

David Syrett, Chief Admitting Officer employed from 1966 to the present time." It is dated by the way, March 31, 1975. "Dear Sir: It is a pleasure to recommend Mr. Syrett to you for the position in admitting and medical records. Mr. Syrett is a pleasant likeable person, and has a friendly manner. He is well thought of by his peer group, does not hesitate to work long hours if the need presents itself, enters into discussions and presents honest opinions. Mr. Syrett is married, and his wife is a very gracious person, a native of New Zealand. Mr.

Syrett has prepared a system for the admission,transfer and discharge programme which will enable the automatic preparation of the daily and monthly reports which are vital to management and government statistical . reporting. All this will be processed by remote computer which

April 21, 1978 Tape 1339 PK - 3 Mr. Hickev: eliminates the manual preparation for such reports. The above is an indication of his diligence and his

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1340 MR. HICKEY: interest in looking to the future. He completes the HOM course this Spring and I truly feel he has a great deal to offer in the hospital field." And that is signed, NM- 1 "Yours sincerely, Miss E. Dorothy Arnett, Assistant Administrator, Patient Services." Finally, Mr.

Speaker, I table probably what is the item of most interest to hon. friends opposite, because it is around this particular one the questions arose; I tRble the recommendations from the Pnblic Service Commission, signed by the Chairman, dated November 26, 1976, and it is addressed to "The neputy Xinister, Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation. The Public Service Commission recently held a competition for the position of Administrator at Exon House. The following candidates, whose names are listed in order of preference were found to be qualified for this position .

(1) Hr. David Syrett, 68 Allandale Road, St. John's," and a telephone nwnber. ~heber two, nlli!lber three, and then it says, "Your staff request· 48 refers." Mr. Speaker, I have number two and number three blocked out, as hon. members will see. The nawes and addresses of those two persons is private information, private to this House, I suggest, private to certainly their present employers, private to the public at large and I find in checking with the Department of Justice that this is not the kind of information that should be tabled and consequently I have blocked out those names.

I will suggest, as one last ditch effort to convince the Opposition that we on this side have not now, nor never have had any reason, or any wish, to hide any single fact or any single bit of information surrounding this case, I offer as a gesture to my friend the Leader of the Opposition, if he so '~ishes, I will provide those names, number two and number three, of course with the understanding

April 21, 1978 MR. HICKEY: are, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. W.N. ROWE": Tape No. 1340 NH - 2 that they are in confidence. Here they The hon. Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. Yes, Sir, The hon. the minister made reference to one written reference,I believe,and a number of oral telephonic references which he received or the Public Service Commission. A..>:f RON. 11EMBER: HR. W.N. ROl-lE: The telephone ones we want to hear about. Would the hon. the minister care to divulge to the House now what other referees were contacted either by telephone or in writing or by meeting in person? HR. SPEAKER: l1R.

HICKEY: The hon. Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I do not know exactly where those names appear. Yes, Sir, I have the list of names of people given. One is ~~e person with whom the departm~nt had been in touch with and the General Hospital had been in touch with in the initial hiring, Hiss Dorothy Arnett, the Wellesley Hospital, in Toronto. That is the reference which I just tabled. Another one is Dr. Lome A. Klippert, Deputy l1inister of Health, and there is a check after this name and a note which says, "Good reference." Mr. A.M.

O'Keefe, Assistant Administrator, Patient Services, the General Hospital, Forest Road, St. John's, there is a tick after that name and also a notation which says, "Good reference." MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: A final supplementary, the Leader of the Opposition. Hr. Speaker, I think as a point of clarification, Dr. Klippert, who is now the Deputy Hinister of Health, was an employee of the General Hospital at the time that Xr. Syrett was hired. MR. NEA.li.Y: MR. HICKEY: !1R. NEARY: MR. SPEA.'<.ER: HR. W.N. ROWE: Was he also at 1-'ellesley Hospital? No, there is no reference or no indication that I know.

But the minister does not know that The hon. Leader of the Opposition. A final supplementary, Sir, I just note in passing

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1341 !ll1 - 1 MR. W.N. ROWE: the resume of David Syrett. The only evidence that I have here that he held all the positions which were mentioned. Sir, except for the letter from l~ellesley Hospital, is apparently his own resume. There may be other evidence of the fact that he was supervisor of special services - ~.iR. NEARY: - is when he ~•ent to the General. HR . TLN . ROHE: Right.

Executive of environmental services, there may be other evidence, Sir, but most of it seems to be his own evidence, his own statements of fact that this is what in fact he had done during his professional career. Now, Sir, I put - MR. NEARY: HR. W .N. ROWE: That is for the General job or the Exou House? That was for the General job,I believe. I have not had a chance obviously to size it up yet.

I put to the minister, Sir, by way of a statement and question, that if it is possible for a person who is,apparently,professionally unqualified to slip through the Public Service Commission methods and processes,procedures now and end up in a highly responsible, highly delicate, highly di screet position, as administration of a home like Exon House, or any similar government institution, Sir, if that is possible what the minister has said confirms the suspicion of the public, tLe press and ourselves that there must be, Sir, a public enquiry in order to ascertain whether in fact the procedures used are adequate for the choosing of people who are going into highly responsible positions, dealing with the very lives of people , M r.

Speaker, the lives and health and ''ell being of people. It is possible for him to have slipped through the snares so easily,apparently,and what the minister has told us today emphasizes the need, Sir, for a public enquiry, I ask the minister, in all sincerity, Sir, will he nm• consent to advise the government to have a public enquiry held into the hiring practices and other aspects of this whole matter with specific reference to the EAon House matter, Mr. Speaker? Would he consent to a public enquiry?

What he has t old us toda y points up , even more emphaticall y than before, t he need for a public enqu i ry into t his 'mole affairs. 1·1R. NEARY: Hear, hear:

April 21, 1978 HR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: Tape No. 1341 N}f - 2 The han. Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. Nr. Speaker, obviously my han. friend has not read through the documents and,you know~there are a number of them there and I do not expect him to be able to do that that quickly. But I suggest it is too bad,Your Honour, that seeing he has not been able to do that he should have probably waited until maybe next week to draw some conclusions. He says there is only verification of one place of employment.

But if he looks at that verification he will find that it covers a span of something like close to te~ years. Most, if not all, of the gentleman's time was spent in hospital administration. Ten years, ~rr. Speaker, is not to be sneezed at. Ten years experience in the one particular field, going from one .position to another, that is verified, Nr. Speaker, and si2ned by the Assistant Administrator of one of the largest hospitals in Ontario. Surely that is not to be dismissed. The gentleman also, if he goes through the resume as provided by Mr.

Syrett, will see that the - he says that he is not professionally qualified, I believe this is what'I read into what the Leader of the Opposition said. I have to take issue, !fr. Speaker, wit!t that, that the gentleman, whatever his academic standing might have been, grade ten or thirteen, is really not important. At this point in time we are dealing with the professional qualifications,or otherwise, of this man in a related field, namely,hospital administration, namely~ administrator of an institution and this man was quite qualjfied, Mr.

Speaker, in this regard, and the courses that he had taken, listed as had taken were in fact verified, two out of the three were confirmed. ! am not prepared to say that the other could not be confirmed, I do not lcnow, but certainly two out of the three were, and therefore, :lr. Speaker, I cannot see any reason,

April 21, 1978 Tape 1342 PK - 1 Mr. Hickey: the slighest reason for a public enquiry. I would be the first to agree with my hon. friend if he is going to say to me, that obviously as a result - MR. W.N •. ROl-lE: I am not the only one. MR. HICKEY: No, no. Okay. All right. But anyone else- I would say to anyone that obviously as a result of this case certainly there will be a tightening of the lines insofar as the Public Service is concerned. I would not argue that . It would be crazy for anyone to argue that. I am sure there will be. But to suggest that this warrants a public enquir v ?

After all, Mr, Speaker, I should say this; in conclusion, it is not my place to defend in the total sense or to the last word the Public Service Commission. Those-people are quite capable of defending themselves. So what in fact - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. HICKEY: Whar in fact am I saying when J say, no, to a public enquiry. AN HON. MEMBER: !Inaudible). MR. HICKEY: I say no to a public enquiry, Mr. Speaker, because it involves an institution,namely , Exon House that has been dragged across the floor for auite some time, not only this session but for many sessions. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ' MR.

HICKEY: An institution, Mr. Speaker, where there are two peoole now toiling daily in the persons of Sister Mary Lucy and Dr. Stare, two very competent people,who got that institution under control, and who are making daily progress. SOME RON. MEMBERS Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: To subject that institution ,Mr. Speaker, to a public enquiry now, I would not deserve to stay here two days longer as minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HICKEY: I would resign gladly. If I were - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

April 21, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: a public enquiry. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Tape 1342 PK - 2 Order, please! - crazy enough to acknowledge a request for Oh, oh! Order, please! Before recognizing any han. member I would like to welcome to the galleries eleven Grade X and XI students from Presentation High School, Regina High School of Corner Brook accompanied by Brother Carruthers. I know han. members join me in welcoming these students. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Port au Port followed by the han. gentleman for LaPoile. MR.

HODDER: A question for the Minister of Fisheries. Recently in the media and even as late as last night we understood that some lobster fishermen in the Province are getting $1.80 a pound for lobster. I checked with the Bay St. Geo~ge-Port au Port area today and these people got $1.30 a pound yest~rday and $1.50 a pound today. My question to the minister is could he tell us what is happening around the Province? Why are some of the fishermen receiving $1.80 a pound? Why $1.50 a pound? Obviously there is a market price, a set market price for this? is happening in the Province, please? Would he explain what MR.

SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the price of lobsters is being negotiated by the Fishermen's Union, and the price negotiated by the union with the company in question was $1.80 a pound. We are certainly not going to interfere with the normal collective bargaining procedures practiced by the Union in behalf of the fishermen to negotiate prices for lobsters or indeed any other species of fish got in the Province. We have been in constant contact with the industry on this one, and the Union.

And while at first I did have certain reservations with respect to maybe the company with whom they were

April 21, 1978 Tape 1342 Pt< - 3 Mr. W. Carter: negotiation but cer~ainly I have no reason to believe now that company will not perform. Indeed we have wired the company to the effect that we are going to be monitoring their operations pretty closely in the Province. And the first indicat ion that they are doing anyt:hing that will have the eifect of deceiving the fishermen or lessening the amount of - or at least the price being paid for their lobster that we will revoke their licence.

Well certainly to this point in time I have no reason to doubt their credibility, and , in fact, I think the price being offered is a good one, and hopefully will set the pace for other lobster buyers in the Province. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A su~plementary . ~. HODDER: I understand that a statement made by Harbour Foods about a month ago. they claimed that they could handle most or all of the lobster, I think, the figure they ouoted was about the same figure, the total figure that the Province - the total catch of the ProVince each year .

But it seems that - I spoke to the manager and he did not know where Port au Port was. Will the minister

April 21,1978 Tape No. 1343 AH-1 MR. HODDER: work with this company to see that they have their buyers in every area,or will the minister be consulting with this company because at the present time they ~eem to be just buying from certain areas but yet they say they have markets for almost the total catch of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: Han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I can only repeat what I said a moment ago that most fishermen today, inshore fishermen,are members of the Fisherman's Union.

Thatunion is now negotiating the price of lobsters with the company mentioned, and others, Certainly I have no intention of interfering with that normal collective bargaining process. I issued a warning last year to lobster tiuyers~and in fact introduced an amendment to the Fisheries Act in this House later to the effect that if I find out that they are in fact gouging the fishermen or not paying them a fair price for their lobster,or doing anything detrimental to the lobster fishermen~well then c~~:ainly we wo~ld take a second look at issuing them a license.

And ir. fact the amendment to which I referred a moment ago now makes it necessary, mandatory for a lobster buyer to ·apply to the Provincial Department of Fisheries to get a special license to purchase lobsters. Before the amendment went through the House anybody could buy lobster on a general fish processing license~but at this point in time there must be a special license issued. I can only hope that the Fisherman's Union will continue to fight for better prices and certainly in that regard we will support them. HR. HODDER: tilL SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary.

If the company has said that it will buy the total catch of the Province and has markets for that amount, surely the minister will try to insure that all fishermen benefit from the $1.80 per lb. price rather than just those people who are in the Fisherman's Union? t!R. SPEAKER: The han. minister.

April 21,1978 Tape No. 1343 AH-2 MR.W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, that goes without saying naturally we will endeavour to do what we can to ensure that all fishermen get $1.80 per lb. 1 in fact if it is possible maybe more than $1.80 per lb. But certainly what can be done will be done, my department working with the union and the fishermen themselves. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon, gentleman from Terra Nova. ~fR. NEARY: I would like to direct my question to the hon, the Premier.

In reference to the statement made ay the hon. gentleman this morning about Fishery Products,as the llouse.knows, Hr. Speaker, it is the people of this Province who practically own Fishery Products; It was nationalized two years ago practically by the government. Wnat I would like to ask the Premier is now that the Minister of Finance has abdicated his position under strain and stress, would the Premier tell us who represents the taxpayers, who represents the government now on tPe 3oard of Directors of Fishery Products? PRDIIER MOORES: Hr.

Speaker, before this arrangement today it was the Deputy Minister of Fisheries and the Deputy Minister of Finance. After today they will nave an independent board because no longer will there be a direct involvement by the government. They will be taking advantage of that extra bit of guarantee required to do massive capital financing as will other companies in the Province. And I might say, Sir, that there are a couple of other companies in the Province getting 1eady for proposals under the same scheme and we could say this being as much $100 million for capital expansion.

As I said,it is unfortunate that the 6pposition are opposed to it. AN HON. M&'1BER: It is a crock, it is a crock. PREMIER NOCRES: It is a crock, yes a crock,they refe• to it as a crock. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

April 21,1978 Tape MI. 1343 AH- 3 PR£NIER t·!OORES: I have not finished t!le ansver yet, Xr. Speaker . I almost forget ~hat the question was now. But tbe fact is, Sir, that the governgent direc t debt will be paid off by this guarantee financing and the financing is done through the Bank of ~ova Scotia. As they have paid off the direct debt to the government,tbe government feels ~hat there is no necessity to have representation on the board of a private company. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.

HIC!OIAJ.~: ~lotion S. }~tion, the hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment to introduce a bill, "An Act To Regulate The Discounting Of Income Tax Refunds ," carri.ed. (Bill No. 21) On motion, Bill No. 21 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorr~. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Wnole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

April 21, 1978 Tape 1344 EC - 1 l1R. NEARY: Sit down, boy! You had the floor last night. Sit down! SOME HON. ~lE11BERS: Oh, oh! ?1R. CHAIR!fA:-1: Grand Falls. MR. LUNDRIGAN: 1601-01. The han. the member for Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I just barely started my two minutes on last evening - SQ}IE RON. 11EHBERS: Oh, oh! l-1R. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! By way of explanation~perhaps I should point out to the han. Committee that no one can adjourn the debate in Committee, This is undoubted.

It does not necessarily follow that because someone spoke in the Committee last when the Committee rose that when he is recognized he is being recognized as having adjourned the Committee. The Chair attempts to be fair in these matters and goes back and forth. It has been well established in the past, and this has applied to members on both sides of the House, where a member has had just a few minutes before the Committee rose, to make his remarks that the Committee has often recognized that member again. Acl EON. ~EHllER: ~1R. CHAIRHAN: Hear, hear!

This is not in the context of having given that member a right to have adjourned the Committee, which,of course, he has no right to do. The Chair has merely considered that this has been fair and has applied this rule to both sides of the House, and it would be my intention to be as fair as possible in the future. Grand Falls. HR. LUNDRIGA~T: Your Honour's ruling. The han. the member for ~r. Chairman, indeed I appreciate

April 21, 1978 Tape 1344 EC - 2 MR. LUNDRIGAN: First of all, I think it goes without saying that what we have witnessed this morning in the Legislature when the hon. the Premier presented one of the most progressive statements that has been made in the Legislature in recent history on rural development involving Twillingate, I understand just by the vibrations I have picked up that the bulk of the attention from the announcement will go to Twillingate, one of the most rural communities, places like St. ,\nthony and the like.

It was summed up in the most unparliamentary terms by the Leader of the Opposition in a way which I am sure he is very unhappy about now. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, a point of order. :m. CHAIRMAN: Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N. RO'</E: A point of order, the hen. the Do the members of the Rouse have to stand here and listen to the - AN HON. XEHBEP,: listen in silence. HR. W. N. ROHE: You must sit in your place and If it were any member of the House, Sir, I am sure Your Honour would protect him from having some other member say about him that he spoke in unparliamentary terms.

If I spoke in unparliamentary terms, Sir, the Speaker would have drawn me to order or someone would have raised a point of order, I ask that Your Honour ask that hen. member to withdraw the statement that I or anyone else spoke in unparliamentary terms in this hen. Rouse. SO~E BON. XEMBERS: !!R. PECKFORD: Oh, oh! It is not a point of order, it is a difference of opinion, a difference of

interpretation between two hen. members, and the hen. the Leader of the

April 21, 1978 Tape 1344 EC - 3 XR. PECKFORD: Opposition now is acknowledging by getting up on such specious points of order that he has made statements which he is now sorry for and he is trying to use the guise of the point of order to acknowledge that kind of situation. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, Order, please! I think the Chair is in the position to rule on this point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I believe I have heard from both sides of the House, from the Leader of the Opposition in one case and from an hon. minister in the other case. point. I believe I am therefore in a position to rule on the If the imputation was that the han. member has made remarks which may have been unparliamentary,! would point out to han. members that derision and the accusation of being unparliamentary is out of order, and if the han. member would withdraw any imputation in that regard I am sure it would help the work of the Committee. MR.LUNDRIGAN: I meant to use in talking the phrase 'undignified language'.

I believ~ the han. the Leader of the Opposition quite sincerely right now regrets the way that he came on this morning in referring to one of the finest bits of evidence of rural development that we have had in this Province is summed up in his word today, his attitude about rural development. But I want to get on to something a bit more important than that, Mr. Chairman.

Last evening we referred to and tabled in the Legislature the 130 communities that were on the resettlement list when the present Leader of the Opposition occupied the position in char~e of the Community and Social Development Department some four or five years ago.

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1345 ~IR. LUNDRIGA.'I: I was shocked and I believe hon. members were shocked when we got the evidence of the 130 communities, many of which today are the thriving communities that were involved. NH -- 1 I remember at one point having that list and refusing, as a matter of fact,refusing until now to get involved in it until the programme was killed, for the simple reason, ~fr.

Speaker, that communities that knew they were on this ki~d of a list, \Jhere no services would be provided, that they were being depopulated, it was a very discouraging and disheartening type of thing to be hanging over the community and until now of course the thing has been kept pretty quiet. I am proud to have been associated for a couple of years with a department that has been working to try and turn around the resettlement, the concept of destroying the rural parts of our Province.

I think we have in ~he Department of Rural Development one of the finest groups of people that we have in any department of the provincial government, some seventy-five people in the department at the present moment with progra=es that are aimed in a very meaningful way to revitalize and re-establish rural development, rural communities, rural existence. It has been my contention that because of the programmes we have been able to maintain a level of stability, economic stability in our Province today, that we would not have had without this type of programme.

I think we would have been in a lot of trouble, a lot mere trouble,! can say, because we are continuously facing economic uncertainty, a lot more difficulty without the programmes that we have had in rural development. I believe the rural development associations are emerging as a very strong force in our Province, very underestimated. In many areas of the Province people are not aware of them and many of the members of the Legislature obviously are not aware of them. lfuen

April 21, 1978 Tape No, 1345 NH - 2 HR. Lill-<'DRIGA.."l: you listen to the member last evening for Lewisporte (Mr. F. vfuite) getting up and taking on the Exploits .Valley Development Association because they carried out an experimental programme- these associations by the way, Mr. Speaker, are incorporated totally independent of government, they operate as a corporation. They request funding from various sources, carry out their programmes in experimentation-and this was an example of where the member for Lewisporte was totally unaware of the programmes. Now, Mr.

Speaker, last evening I heard some wrangling from various members, one of whom was the member for Burin - Placentia West when he talked about the resettlement programme that did away with a lot of communities, and that he thought that was a good thing. I heard the member for Terra Nova ' (Mr. Lush) calling across the House, would people ever go back? I heard the member for Bonavista North ~rr. Cross) talking about evidence of revitalization of communities that in fact are on this particular list. But that is not my major concern •..

My -:najor concern is the philosophy and the attitude that exists in the minds of the people who are looking to form the government of this Province, and particularly my concern is, quite sincerely, my concern is the attitude of the Leader of the Opposition. Now people do not change their spots that dramatically. People do not change their attitudes that dramatically. A very few years ago the Leader of the Opposition felt that there was no future in rural Newfoundland at all, get rid of it, over populated, benefit the young, do away with the kind of attitude.

And I do not think the Leader of the Opposition - ;.JR. NOLA..'!: A point of order, :rr. Chairman. MR. CHAIIDI.AN: A point of order. Order, please: f l

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1345 NH- 3 NR. NOLAN: I mean surely no hen. member, ~~e are told, is allowed to mislead. Now our hen. friend opposite has now stated that a fe~1 years ago the hon. leader wanted to get of all these people, he had no confidence in these communities and so on, that is not so. MR. ~fORGAN: MR. NOLAN: .MR. MORGAN: MR. NOLA..'l': NR. CHAIRHAN: It is so. It is not so. It is so! He is misleading the House, Hr. Chairman. Order, please! The point brought up I think clearly is in the area - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Order, please! Order, please! :!R.

CHAIIUfAN: The point brought up I think is clearly in the order of debate,rhere are differences of opinion, differences of interpretatio~ on this point, but I do not think it is a point that comes under order. The hen. member for Grand Falls. 1-IR. LUNDRIGAN: Let me quote £rom a case study, a Newfoundland community consolidation programme, presented by the Hinister of Community and Social Development, to the Harrison Thinkers Conference, November 21st., 22nd., 23rd., 1969. I will quote, Mr. Speaker, and I will give the hen. member for Conception Bay South C1r. Nolan) the facts, what the hen.

Leader of the Opposition - A.'l' RON. MEHBER: ~-IR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. DINN: MR. LUNDRIGA.'l': He knows the facts. - what he believes in. If anybody is trying to mislead, he is. "Although the resettlement programme is justified on an economic cost analysis basis alone - !-IR. DINN: You know the facts, you were there. !1R.. LUNDRIGA.'l': -''the problem boil!' clown, and the final analysis to a matter of value judgements,

April 21, 1978 Tape 1346 DW - 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: where a decision has to taken as to what is· to be considered the best mode of life:• The best mode of life! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition decided what the best mode of life was.'~y then should many isolated Newfoundlanders be deprived of the choice of resettlement,for the choice does not exist for one who is chained to the rocks by the lack of funds or by the narrowness of vision caused by isolation." AN HON. ME!ffiER: That is a great line. MR. J.

LUNDRIGAN: That is the statement of the Leader of the Opposition."But we are still incumbered with an obselete popluation distribution. Prior to government involvement on the resettlement program a population of less than one half a million was scattered throughout 1,300 communities -The plain ecological fact is that coastal Newfound­ land is over populated." MR. J. DINN: Do not try to defend that kind of thing, 'John! Do not try to defend it. MR. J. LUNDRIGA.'l: "The provincial Budget speech of 1969"- listen to this as the objective,this is what scares me a little bit.

"The provincial Budget speech of 1969 estimated that in about twenty years time the population of the Province will have concentrated itself into thiry-six urban settlements of approximately 10,000 people or more,into twenty-five prjmary centers of intermediate size, and into 200 communities averaging about a thousand population. If the forecast proves to be ; correct~' the hon.

Leader of the Opposition goes on and says;~f the forecast proves to be correct it will still mean that a total population of about 750,000 Newfoundlanders will be contained in more than 250 co=unities ." 250 communities was the objective that the hon.the Leader of the Opposition had in mind for the population distribution of our Province.Today we have 800 communities in our Province. MR. DUN: 310 municipalities. MR. J. LUNDRIGAN: "Nevertheless the situation will be at least more manageable than it is at the present time,especially in

April 21, 1978 Tape 1346 DW - 2 MR. J. LUNDRIGAN: respect of public services and economic opportunity that the population expects even now:' It will be more manageable.The Leader of the Opposition said that is what we need, a more manageable population,not a more concentrated population in al"eas where there a.:e economic opporttmi ty.

" These forecasts and estimates would appeared to indicate that we must anticipate the pace of resettlement application ~ccel~T•~i"~ further from the present level of about 5,000 a year to 8,000 a year.Th •. present pace of resettlement is barely keeping up with the net increase in rural population~' ~ _As if rural population is a disease~ It is barely keeping up with the net increase in rural population. Therefore there is to be a significant dent made in the problem of rural over population." Is this the Leader of the Opposition?rs this to my friend from Conception Bay South some. fabrication o~ my part?

This was the philosoph~ of the Leader of the Opposition.! am not worried about the fact that there are not very many people living on Fair Island today or living on Bragg's Island today or living out in the various · arms in Northern Dame Bay but, Mr. Speaker, the attitude that the Leader of the Opposition had and has today and has not changed is that the people of Newfoundland should be living in a handful of urban communities-mol"e manageable. S~fE RON • MEMBERS : HR. DINN: MR. J. LUNDRI~AN: Oh, Oh! Mavbe we should all go to (Inaudible) Mr. Speaker, why all the heckling,why cackling, why all the cackling?

What is goinp; on?I got a funny feeling, Mr. Speaker, that this is a little bit more of a sore point than meets the eye. ~fuat has been happening in the last - ever since I can remember being involved in politics;with a number of people federally and all over the place,we argued with the federal government and argued here we hac to do something to revitalize the rural economy of our Province.

Ten years ago you could leave there and drive north alon~ the Northeast Coast of our Province and the whole economy was in a mess•Almost no rural community had any prospect of any future ;!'he basic reason 1ms that the government did not,the Leader of the Opposition did not believe it should

April 21, 1978 Tape 1346 Dl-1 - 3 ~ffi. J. LUNDRIGAN: continue to exist. Mr. Bob Hart. the father of· resettlement at the federal level,a great friend of the Leader of the Opposition,argued and said that there is no reason for these communites to exist,

April 21, 1978 MR. LUNDRIGAN: cann·ot manage them. Tape 1347 EC - 1 they should be resettled, we There is no future in the inshore fishery. Now what a mess we would have been in today if we had followed the programme that the Leader of the Opposition had in mind. Mr. Speaker, I think it is rather ironical that the Leader of the Opposition representing Twillingate, a very rural community, can stand up in his place day after day and criticize this government because of its rural development policies. I find that amazingly contradictory.

If there is anything that this government can stand for and stand behind and be proud of,it is the fact that we have ~rought back to life the rural parts of our Province. + grant you we have many problems in the more urban areas; I will grant you St. John's does not h~ve the level of opportunity it had. One of the comments which really rocked me,a couple of months ago I was down on Fogo Island and I was driving from Fogo Harbour to Seldom with Mr.

Stagg, the manager of the fish operation there, and he said, 'You are representing Grand Falls.' He said, 'You must have an awful pile of problems in Grand Falls.' He said, 'I sometimes 1;onder what the people are going to do in Grand Falls.' 'What are they going to do,' he said, 'the new generations, the younger people?' and I agreed with him. setting. That is one of my major concerns in a more urban Ten years ago on Fogo Island, I went down with the member for Gander looking to be elected in 1968 and I came away depressed.

I was up until 3:00 A.M. with people knocking on my door - problem after problem after problem. ..

April 21, 1978 Tape 134 7 EC - 2 :1R. LUNDRIGAN: I went to Tilting Harbour. Peopie said, 'What are we going to do, Mr. Lundrigan?' 'Where do you stand on resettlement?' I said, 'I am against resettlement. You have to look to yourselves. You have your air, you have your resources, you are going to have to try to build it, revitalize it.' There was total depression. The population had gone down to over 4,000 people and the people were in danger of being moved off their island.

Today the population is well over 5,000 people; one of the healthiest economies in the Province; I understand they have one of the highest levels of bank deposits of any community in the Province - a very, very prosperous Newfoundland community, or group of Newfoundland communities. AN HON. HEHBER: Hear, hear! HR. LUNDRIGAN: At one point - the Leader of the Opposition will recall this story; I have not heard it contradicted, it was not contradicted last year by the former member for Twillingate who is no longer with us in the Legislature - HR. FLIGHT: Why did you go out to Alberta? HR.

LmlDRIGAN: - Fogo Island was to have a major announcement,as the story goes, and I will throw it out for the Leader of the Opposition - he was part of the planning group that was going down to make a major announce~ent on Fogo Island~ not the type of major announcement we heard today - and the then Premier was going to tell the people of Fogo Island that he had a great opportunity for them. If they were willing to move over to Musgrave Harbour, he would provide central port facilities, regional high schools, water and sewer for them. And it was announced as a major conference for

April 21, 1978 Tape 1347 EC - 3 !·!R. LUNDRIGA : Fogo Island people. They had the platform all set up, all ready co go when the then Premier - R. ~EAR'i: ~r. Chairman, a po~nt of order. 'R. CI!AI!t!-!AN: A point of order . . !R .

NEARY: I ~now Your Honour gav e a ruling there a few moments ago that Your Rono ur likes to J O back and forth, but in all fairness- and Your Honour was trying to be fair about this and I appreciate the cooments of the Chair- but does Your Honour not think in all fairness that the time that was consumed and wasted by the hon. gentleman last night should not be added to the twenty min utes? Is that not only fair too, Sir to this side of the n euse rather than have obstruction and del&y tactics and using up the five hours that we have under this sub-head, ~r . Chairman? Includi ng five minutes iast niS~:ht.

Ot"der, please! ''R . ! I C!<~~A ~~ : ~r. Cha1rman, for the record, if Your !onour will recall, it was two minutes and twelve seconds ,I think it •,ras, ·hen the hon. ge·ntleman - SO.:E .ON . ~EMB'E~S: Oh, oh! ~- . '!HC!C ' A~!: - two minutes and t•elve seconds? Nell, whatever it vas,it wa s a modestly short time, but in any event it is not a point of order, T~e hon. gen tle ~an :nous that. Be knows it is not a point of order and he know s that any ent-leman when he rises has t"l~enty minutes . I to speak, So where is the point of order? !·!"R . C'!!.A.IR~!A.l: Order, please!

Orde r , please! nn the point of order I t hink che issue is quite clear. Ou r rules state that if an hon . me~ber is recognized in Co mittee he d oes

April 21, 1978 Tape 1347 ::c - 4 !~R • CRA IRHA N: have twenty minutes and I am afraid that the Chair has no other option but to recognize that. ~!R . LUmlRICAN: !lr. Chairman, thank you . I will get quickly to the point. Jus t as the Leade r of the Opposition as one of the advisers to the chen Premie r ~as on the way down to ?ogo Island to announce this beautiful scheme they had for resettlement, there was a petition came in out of !~u sgrave ~arbour askinJt that they be relocated to Come By Chance , because at t hat time Come By Chance was being talked of as the Xecca - and also t he four t h or fifth o r sixth mill, what e ver th e case might be, I forget the numb er s .

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1348 MR. LUNDRIGAN: this is an example of the way that rural development was going. Today Musgrave Harbour did not, thank God, resettle because last year they got a new fish plant, they have all kinds of earnings, twenty-two _new homes are being built and you can leave here today and you can go North from here to Nain and you will see a changing face in Newfoundland and it is my hope that in the next number of years, with the upward movements in our economy in Canada and our Province - l1R. NEARY: You cannot make the hen. gentleman any - MR. LUNDRIGAN; - Mr.

Chairman, that we will get some other kinds of activity that will help give up a lift in some of the urban areas because this is where many of our problems are today. When I look on a political figure, I am not as interested in the odds and ends that he does or does not do, My main concern iE in his attitude, in his philosophy, what he believes in, what his real gut concern is for his people, And when I analyze this document it tells me a whole pile of stuff gbout the Leader of the Opposition, and I am hopeful, Mr. Chairman, that the people of Newfoundland - maybe that is what they want, but I doubt it very much.

I hope that they get a chance to really learn what the Leader of the Opposition believes with respect to rural development. llm!E HON. MEMBERS: llear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. ~m. W.N. ROWE: Five minutes left,! understand, Mr. Chairman, in the esti~ates of this department, five or six minutes, so it is difficult to grapple with all the things which have been mentioned in the House over the last four or five hours but five minutes should be enough to demolish utterly the hen. member who last spoke.

If patriotism, Sir, is the last refuge of a scoundrel, ti.en ancient history must be the last refuge of a frightened incompetent. This hen. member, Sir, who was a failure as a me~er in Ottawa, and who could not get re-elected, a man who bolts -~ r I

April 21, 19'78 Tape <lo. 1348 N:1 - 2 I!R. 1-1 .N. ROl-lE: from a Cabinet and then comes back again, back and forth, back and forth, does not know where he stands, now proposes . to stand up here and think that his words uttered are going to be taken 1dth any credibility whatsoever. What: a joke, }!r. Speaker. He does not know where he stands. He does not know whether he is with the government or against the government, Scurry out of the House now, Sir, because he knows that he has not got what it takes. Failure, Sir, has gone to that hon. gentleman's head. Failure has gone to his head, Sir.

He cannot make a rational judgement anymore. Anybody who is intelligent on the other side, and there are some, for example the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. ~rshall)­ no,for Kilbride (}!r. Hells) rather. I almost make a big mistake there, did I not? The member for St. John's East is not all that intelligent but he is educated, educated beyond his intelligence. AN HON. MEI-fBER: Educated fool. 1~ . W.N. ROWE: The hon. member for Kilbride (i!r.

Wells), who has the respect of everyone on both sides of this House, and the public, wrote a little document back in 1959- ancient history­ ~~at you need to know about the government's policy on centralizing populations, Sir. AN HON. l!EMBER: Go on, is that right? MR. 1-l.N. ROWE: In 1959, as a government economist, rational~ sensible things, said "One point must be made clear in the beginning, is that the government will not move people or in any way force them to move. ~~at we will do is help them to move if they are absolutely sure they want to move." ~!R. NEARY: ~!R. W.N.

RO\m: That is the great marathon runner, is it? So I am not going to get into that ancient history, Sir, Ancient history,we have already established, is the last refuge of a frightened incompetent, a man who made a mess of the government departments he was in, Industrial Development, Rural

April 21, 1978 Tape 11o. 1348 NM- 3 HR. W.N. ROWE: Development, then scurried out like a scared rabbit pretending - trying to save his own skin, knowing he was on a sinking ship represented by this government. SOME RON. MFJ."mER.S : MR. ~IAR.SHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL : Hear, hear! Mr. Chairman, a point of order. A point of order has come up. Mr. Chairman, you know1 if this is allowed to go on- Look,it says that abusive and insulting language is not to be used with respect to another member in this House. The hon. member has long ago transgressed that particular rule. He does it again and again.

I do not know the reasons. You usually find this kind of reaction from people, you know, where somebody has hit home, or they have something to hide or what have you. But the point of the matter is this, that this House is disintegrating around our ears, and it is disintegrating because language like this is allowed to be used . Language of this nature requires, Mr.

Chairman, prompt interference, I suggest that there be prompt in~erference and a requirement that the Leader of the Opposition, above all people here, as leader of a party, refrain from this type of attack because all it is doing is just dragging this House and this Committee down in the mire and down into the ill repute which the public nou holds it in. HR. NEARY: l!R. H.N. RO~TE: HR. CRL\.IRllAli: l!R. \UL ROw"E : You should knetv that, you have been down the - On that point of order, Sir - To the point of order. - I withdraw, under the onslaught of the hon. member for St.

John's East Olr. :larshall), I wiChdraw everyt :1ing that I have said to date. Now if I can continue my few remarks?

April 21, 1978 Tape 1349 PK - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: The point of order has been disposed of. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: It has been disposed of. I have withdrawn everything, Sir. Let me make this little comment,though,that the hon. member, Sir, who could not get in a rural seat in this Province had to scurry off the most urban P.C. seat to get elected, Sir. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. ROWE: has the face to come in here and talk about rural Newfoundland. What a joke, Sir!

Let us talk not about ancient history, Sir, in the minute we have left - the last refugee of a frightened incompetent- ancient history to cover up the blunders of the present and the lack of planning or position or policy for the future. Let us talk about the present,for · a moment, let us talk about the new resettlement programme, the new resettlement programme,fostered,developed and devised and contrived by this government, Mr. Chairman. The new resettlement programme. MR. NEARY: Across the Gulf! MR. W. ROWE: Twenty per cent unemployment - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W.

ROWE: - fostered by that hon. member when he was Minister of Industrial Development. What industry except closed down. Let us talk about the resettlement programme from Stephenville. MR. MCNEIL: Eight thousand gone. MR. W. ROWE: Let us talk about resettlement programme from Come By Chance, let us talk about the resettlement programme from every other community in this Province-to where, Sir MR. NEARY: St. Lawrence. MR. W. ROWE: To another part of Newfoundland and Labrador7 MR. NEARY: Goose Bay and St. Lawrence. MR. W. ROWE: No, Sir, Iran.

Resettle the people of Newfoundland under this minister's policy to Saudi Arbian. There is your spot. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 'f ;

April 21, 1978 Tape 1349 PK - 2 MR. W. ROWE: Under this hon. Minister of Industrial Development policy, Saudi Arabian. Oh, oh! SOME HON. MEMBERS MR. W. ROWE: Now, Sir, just get a little closer to home - let us resettle whole families, and young people to Calga,ry. ·:-,. MR. PECKFORD: Gay Paris. MR. NEARY: Fort MacMurray. MR. W. ROWE: Toronto, Sir.

Every single year for the past six years, thousands of young people and families in this Province forced out of this Province to resettle themselves, not from the Horse Islands to LaSciE- ·an urban population of 1,500, LaSci": ~ not from the Horse Islands,where there were no hospital facilities, twenty children, no schooling facilities,to LaScie where they were within driving distance of a hospital, excellent schools, water and sewer systems and so on 1 no.t 'from the Horse Islands to LaScie, Sir, but from Stephenville - MR. FLIGHT: Yes, that is right. MR. w. ROWE: - to Saudi Arabia. MR. NEARY: St. Lawrence.

MR. w. ROWE: From St. Lawrence, Sir, to Calgary. That the new resettlement programme, devised, contrived and executed by that hen. minister who has resigned from a government in disgrace. is MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I do have to point out that I am afraid time has elapsed. MR. W.N. ROWE: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. By leave. By leave? I understand leave is not given. On motion 1601-01 through 1604-G2-03, carried. Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! The officers at the table have difficulty in calling out the headings. '·

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1349 NM- 3 On motion 1603-01 through 1607-07-03, carried. On motion Head XVI, carried without amendment.

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1350 HM - 1 }fR. CHAIRHAN : Page t•Jenty-nine, Head VI - Education, 601-01. The han. Hinister of Education. HR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, in introducing the Education estimates I am asking for the grand total of $305 million, and a net expenditure of $285,447,000. This is a very large expenditure, a large portion of the total provincial budget, and of course is a very significant and important aspect of provincial development, as we do consider the development of our people a very important resource.

We have now, at the present time, just under ~56.000 pupils in our schools in the Province, and at the present time 7,865 teachers. Both these will decrease next year, both the student population and the teacher population as we have indicated by 127. We also have about 18,000 pupils of all ages,I guess, in the post secondary aspect of education. About ~,000 full time equivalents,! guess,at the university and 9,000 i~ our vocational schools and various colleges, the Fisheries College and the Trades College. In addition to that,of course,there is about 20,000 people involved in adult and continuing education.

When one realizes,of course,the magnitude of these numbers it shows that we have a large percentage of our people who are being educated, perhaps the biggest percentage of any province in Canada. And these statistics,of course, show it takes a lot of manpower to train, a lot of facilities, and a lot of accommodations. It also presents a great challenge to us in curriculum, programmes and of course administration and financial where•vithal, and I think that last one is very important.

"l'e look at the cost this year of the Education budget, it is gone up by about five per cent, which incidentally is in line with what the other provinces are doing. And there has been an effort,and I make no apologies for it, and I think · it is a general trend across the Western world, particularly in Canada, to try to curb costs. Because . ·-

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1350 NM- 2 HR. HOUSE: if we had had the growth, if we had continued the growth we had at the beginning of the last five years, we just would not be able to stand it financially. And the great challenge with the department, and with the school boards in the Province, is to try to curb costs, which they have done a marvellous job on doing, and to maintain or even improve quality. Mr.

Chairman, perhaps it is popular to be able to say that we are spending a lot more this year than last, and this seems to be a trend, but again I am going to say I make no apologies for trying to be fiscally responsible. I think that ~dth regards to costs t!le same can be said about education as the Federal ~inister of Finance said the other day in bringing down his budget; he said something to the effect, "1-1e have grown in Canada too big too fast." !-/ell I would not go that far to say that totally about education.

I agree that w~ have got to stand back and take a look at where we are going with respect to costs and education and to review their relationship between cost and quality. Mr. Chairman, if we look back at the preceeding decade, we had a rash of royal commissions,and I use that word royal commission because in the sixties we had these grandiose plans developed and one would want to read them to see how these eommissions reflected into the expectations of people. And I am not referring specifically to the commission report we had here, ~~hich was a good report, I was thinking - A..'l HON. HE:1BER: ~lR.

HOUSE: Warren? Yes. I am not reflecting on that but I am reflecting on some of the - the \i'orth Commission out West and the Grand Commission in Nova Scotia. l!R. NEARY: There was one in Ontario -

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1350 ID!- 3 NR. HOUSE: Yes. That is right. That was a big one. And of course they attributed a lot of qualities to education that perhpas we could not meet. It certainly did develop people's expectations and of course that was as a result of people being iovolv~d

April 21, 1978 Tape 1351 EC - 1 MR . !'!.OUSE: in it. And any·one, I. think, who would take these and re a d them today would realize that a lot of what came about from them was much more based on philosophical argument than on good empirical research . And this is what we have got to have today, I think, in our education programmes and our development is to look back at what real research says . these (inaudible) mt. HOUSE : The parents had no input in Oh, yes, the parents had a lot of input in these Royal Commissions. !-tR . ~.EARY: They (inaudible) '1R. HOU SE: Oh, ye s. .IR .

NEARY: They were no~ on the commission. ,:"R . lOUSE: ' o, they were n o t on t h e commiss i on but they certainly had input . HR . :-.lEARY: the task force !IR. HOUSE: later. . IR . ~EARY: OOSE: (b.audible) Like the one announced today, but no parents. I will mention that one a little All right . ~ow, Hr. Chai r man, there are two or three things in the Budget that are goidg to ap pear to cause us some p r oblem._s . The boards- t!ley have the busing problem where we have laid an extra 5 per cent to the school boards.

That par~icular thin g can be of~set somew hat by the announcement this ~orning by the ~inister of Pinance about an e~t~a $400 000 savi~g by the reta il sales ta4; the other one is the teacher layoff which I will mention; rextbooks' where we gave all free textbooks up to Grade III , including Gra de VIII, and now t:e have asked that the

April 21, 1978 Tape 1351 EC - 2 !.fR. HOUSE: purchase their consumables which will average about $5, but front-end loaded to the younger pupils, and I think the most they will have to pay there, except for one board that has a very extensive programme in one particular discipline, it is going to be about an $8 cost. The other thing is the teacher layoff,and in the last few weeks, as a matter of fact about three weeks before the Budget~we announced that of course, there would be 127 less teachers in the Province next year. The word 'quality' of course, has been bandied about.

We have heard people discussing that quality of education is going to suffer drastically as a result of these 127 teachers distributed just about all across the Province. And one is led to believe - and I have had petitions from areas where they are losing one teacher. Now I have been saying and we have been saying and we still maintain that the layoffs ~vill not have an appreciable effect on the quality of education. AN RON. 1"EMBER: It is an assumption, of course. HR. HOUSE: It is an assumption the same as everybody else is making - that is right.

And of course, there has been a very well orchestrated protest and I think everybody recognizes and realizes that it is well orchestrated because there have been letters gone out from the NTA - and I do submit that they are making a protest and they are making a point - but the whole thing about it is that I believe that we are emphasizing the loss of quality too much there and I believe that one other thing to be taken into consideration - I agree that the teachers, themselves are concerned with quality, but they are also concerned with job security just the same as I am concerned with that kind of thing.

And that thing cannot be overlooked.

April 21, 1978 Tape 1351 EC - 3 ~R . BOUSC: So there are a feu things I canno t underst a nd about the a r gumenu that quality is going to go down . I cannot really unde r stand that . When a population is growing, a one to twenty-six ratio seems to be fair l y adequate. A.~ HOl\. ~!E~IBER: ~!R . HOUSE: (Inaudible) Wel l , we are not ge tt ing the r eaction from the boards that have the one to twenty-six ratio . I t seems to be a pretty good si t uation . But ~hen the population declines, a one to twenty-six ratio is terrible . Now I cannot see that.

And I have been involved i n education, I have been invol v ed where there have been declining enrolments , and I kno~ there are go ing to be some inconveniences, but I do na t think t here is going to be any appreciable loss of quality. But I do believe t hat if i t wen t co the extreme that was talked about at the beginning where somebody had said there is g oi~g co be 27,000 pupils less in the next five yea r s -we are going to have 1,200 pupils less - I :hink,of cou~se, that would have an appreciable effect and I do not think we have any inte n tion of let t ing that happen .

Now the purpose of the task force that was announced this ~o r ning is to look into the problen with a view not to dealing alone with the problem of declining enrol~ents, but to try to oax~~ize what seems to be a negative into a positive, ~ nd witb a view not to ~aintaining quality, but a view to !~proving i t. And I would hope that the various groups, the ~TA,

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1352 NM- 1 MR. HOUSE: the school boards, the PTA, will recognize what it'was set up for and give us a chance to review the situation. Now there was some talk morning about the task force when it was announced and some reaction to it. If hon. members would understand the main reason for the task force is to try and look at the whole gambit of education just on the periphery 1 to take into consideration the declining enrollments and to look somewhat into quality education and the development of programmes~ and the allocation of school board grants and monies.

The thing is we wanted to do with that rather rapidly. The NTA want us to have a report in by the 30th. of May, of course which we think is virtually impossible. MR. NEARY: AN RON. MEMBER: be so foolish. SOME RON. MEMBERS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. HOUSE: Mr. Chairman, can we have a quorum call? Come in 'Steve; boy,and sit down. Do not Oh, oh! There is a quorum. I would ask the Clerk to count the House. A quorum is present. The hon. Minister of Education.

I said that first of all they wanted a report by the 30th. of May and we felt that we could not get it by the 30th. of May, the 30th. of June would be a more reasonable date. And the other thing,they wanted the full study to be completed by the end of the calendar year. And of course you know that was going to necessitate a lot of intense work. So we have appointed these two co-chairmen, which was stated this morning. Now the reason for not going to the general public is because of the fact that there is just not time to get it done and the other thing is getting representative groups, all interested groups

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1352 NM- 2 MR. HOUSE: in education,and you can name off dozens of them, to have representation you would have an unwieldy group to·work with and I do not think we would be able to do it as efficiently and we would not get it done in the time frame that we want. And on the other hand too we had discussed it with the other groups, and the NTA for instance is generally totally in agreement, the NTA officials we contacted, with going the route that we have gone. So that is the reason for that approach.

The other part of it is that we are not forgetting all the various agencies because we are soliciting information, input from all the other organizations in education and in that way we think we will get a better consensus than by having just one representative. I am very happy with the task force, the terms of reference and the enthusiasm which the two people who have been appointed are going to work on the problem. Now, Mr. Chairman, having talked about the budget and saying that I make no apologies for it, but recongizing that there are inconveniences and economic restraints, we are still making progress.

Growth, to use sometimes educational jargon, is not only horizontal, it can be vertical or vertical and horizontal. The fact that no new structures are added in terms of total programmes do not imply lack of development. There has been much made in curriculum and one of the things I saw a little while ago in the Throne Speech debate was the Leader of the Opposition making some reaction to education and talking about the archaic curriculum.

Now there has been tremendous growth in new curriculum programmes in the last two or three years and it is still ongoing, and if the curriculum is not adequate, if it is not what people expect, it is because it must be the blame cannot be squarely laid at the department because we have involved all levels of people in curriculum development. And I

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1353 JM- 1 MR. HOUSE: want to point out to the hon. House that any programme that is put in the schools is put there with the blessing and with the imput, total imput from the teaching profession. I think that has added to the quality of education in the province. We have had a number of new programmes in science, math, completely new, french, physical education and of course we always get people coming back and saying to us, why do we not have labour education? :·n1y do we not have fishery education? Why do we not have consumer education?

We do not have all that embodied in the curriculum but there is latitude for school boards to do that. I was very interested last year to see a tremendously good programme put on by the school out in Conception Bay on the fishery.

The other day I picked up the Daily News and in consumer affairs of course there was an exam on consumer education and this was in fact coming from a school where the grade tens~I think,were doing a full total course on consumer education and I would almost challenge anycbody in the House to be able to write that exam that they had published there and get,say, seventy or eighty per cent in it~ So there has been continued growth and development in that respect.

In our vocational education programme and this has been eluded to a number of times about the weaknesses and that the Department of Education is responsible for pre-employment programmes in the province and we recognize that there has been weaknesses in keeping programmes up-to-date. We have appointed or getting put into place now curriculum specialists to develop programmes• There are two or three developments in vocational education that should not go unnoticed and that is the performance base programmes where students go at their own rate.

They are doing this now I think in business education and this is the second year. They are doing it also in some of the trades. There is one in carpentry that I am aware of going on in Clarenville. So there is continued development there and again that is coming largely from the teachers themselves and we are giving ·-

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1353 J11- 2 ~lR. HOUSE: them the encouragement and also the specialists to help them with it. One of the great things I think last year which would be interesting to the HR. W.N. ROwE: HR. CHAIRNA.."<: is not present. AN HON. MEMBER: NR. CHAIRHAN: A quorum call. Order please! I do not recognize that a quorum There is a quorum. If I may just allude to the rules for a few moments just to make clear the situation, I would allude to standing rule 4(

d) which states, "When the Speaker's attention has been directed to the fact that tnere is not a quorum present," I will not go on from there but it implies that a quorum must not be present. If the Speaker's attention,and this applies in Committee also to the fact that there may not be a quorum present, Tnereis no call,I do not think,on the Chair to do anything about it. It states here to the fact that there is not a quorum present. So a quorum has to be not present for the Chair to need to do anything.

In my own knowledge at tile point,including the Chairman,- one has to include the Chairman in the count,that there was a quorum present at the time. The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Chairman, I was just about to refer to one of the newer developments last year which was in a pilot last year and that was the Bay St. George Community College, which is to be officially opened next Wednesday. I want to point out that that college is having a tremendous success.

We have a board put in place there and this college is certainly responding to the needs of the community, When I looked back the other day at the remarks that were made last year when we put it into place,I think we can prove conclusively now,and I have some documentation,that really what we have done there is we are on the right road, It ls going to certainly change the post- secondary education development throughout the province if we can come up and initiate it all over,because I have seen programmes put on just at the behest of a number of people and we are very happy with it.

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1353 HR. HOUSE: Of course we are not developing there as fast as we would like to but again it is all tied into financial restraints. But what we are doing I think is in the right direction there. The other thing that was mentioned the other day about the Fisheries College and I wanted to bring that in JM - 3

April 21, 1978 HR. HOUSE: publ i c because - J!!.K.NEARY: over time already. MR. CHAIRHAN: Tape 1354 EC - 1 how we are responding to the You are about five minutes Order, please! The hon. member has just about twenty seconds. HR. HOUSE: I just want to mention there that the Fisheries College has gone to about sixty communities helping put up programmes for fishermen in these communities - sixty communities involving 1,125 people engaged in the fishery. c-!R. CHAIIU!AN: I do have to bring, to the hon. mini•ter's attention that his time has elapsed. The hon. the member for Port au Port. 11R. HODDER: l!r.

Chairman, just listening to the minister~ the minister said a few minutes ago that he did not feel - and this has been the argument that has been bandied about - that he did not feel that there was any quality lost in education due to the teacher layoffs, but every time he has mentioned that he has never given any reason for his assumption. And I will try to show if I can - and I am sure that if the han. ~e~bers on the other side were to go into the classrooms and talk to some of the principals of schools in this Province they would find that there is a loss of quality and will be a loss of quality of education.

I also think, Xr. Chairman, that the announced task force this morning - I do not know why this was done this morning except to perhaps throw a smoke screen over the estimates and over some of the minister~ AN BON. l!fu"!BER: and the government's failings. That is right.

April 21, 1978 Tape 1354 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: Because, Mr. Chairman, that particular task force was announced, it was called for by the NTA and I must say that I a~ surprised - you see, Hr. Chairman, I feel that the cutbacks in education were done in much the same way as they were done in health. When a question was put by my han. colleague from St. George's (~rs. Mcisaac) to the Minister of Health just after the Budget about the $3 medical fee, he did not know how it was going to be applied.

Uell, the same thing happened with the Minister of Education's part of the Budget because these cutbacks were taken with no idea of what the consequences would be, with no consultation with the teachers or with the school boards or with the students,and so we n~w see that these cutbacks are causing great hardship thr~ughout the Province, but yet the minister can only now boldly face back and say that there is no such thing as a loss of quality of education. Mr. Chairman, there has not been such a backward step in education or in enlighten~ent since Atilla the Run.

What the government has done in the last Budget to education in this Province will be remembered forever more. I can see the minister when he looks back on his years as ~inister of Education and I think he will look back with regret because he will be remembered as the minister who had most to do with taking education back to the 1930s. Mr. Chairman, this government must define what the social needs of this Province are and they must also define what the economic needs are. We are well aware that the Province has been suffering economic pressures during the past six years since this government took over.

And before we tamper with education

April 21, 1978 Tape 1354 .E:C - 3 ' !R. BODDER: we muse know what we are doing. I knbw that when the economic needs of the Province are acute there is a tendency to think in terms of cutback on social programmes and I am sure that there are social programmes that can be cut back on, but we cannot neglect the advances that we have made in education since the 1960s and we cannot have a reversal. 1 believe that money can be saved in education, but any attempts to do so must be done carefully. And I welcome the task force to study educat i on.

I t hink that is a step in the right direction, but it is a step taken too late. ~erhaps we should look at why the parents across this Province are so upset because of teac her cutbacks. It is not because the parents of ~ewfoundland children care greatly about the teacher layoff. It is not parcicul~rly that, because there are so many pe ople losing their jobs themselves in this Province that perhaps a couple of hun~red j obs does not mean an awful lot, but it is because the Newfoundland people realize the strides that h ave been made in education and they are looking for even g reater improvements.

Up to 1950, ~r. Chairman, the ' pe op le of this Province had onerous ~ocial controls placed on the m. It was a control b ased on economics -r.

April 21, 1978 Tape 1355 DW - 1 MR.. J • HODDER: supported by the government and perpetuated by church and schools. Fishermen were vassals to the merchants,and the government was composed of merchants and the upper classes,and the schools taught us to maintain the status quo and our curriculum was set up in England somewhere with English textbooks and this was a tight class structure where no one ~ot out of the outports to further their education.

This class structure started to break down after Newfoundland joined Canada and efforts were made to encourage students into the university and large amounts of money was available for education.So as late as 19SS,when there were only 700 students at Memorial University,there was no vocational system at that time,the majority of students still came from St. John's, Corner Brook, and Grand Falls. Then in about 1960 changes took place in the Province, physical changes,a new university, the Colle2e of Trades Anrl TP~hnn1nqv and vocational schools were constructed throughout the Province.

Then after 1965,after that particular Euilding period we saw a leap forward in the quality of education in this Province~e saw the introduction of multiple programs in schools,. an attempt was made to 2et AW~v frnm Am~Ti~~~ textbooks.The handicap_ped and the disadvanta~~:ed were tau2ht. werP. 2i.vPn special attention as well as students who had special abilities. In recent years we have seen the public exams have been done away with in grade nine and ten and attempts have been made to make the curriculum part of the local environment.

And teachers have had more imput in curriculum in the schools,and we have had physical education,music, industrial arts, home economics and badly needed guidance programs in the school. These are not frills,these are essentials.out why are parents so upset presently and why are Newfoundlanders concerned? It is because we do not lvant to return to the past,and the changes announced in . this Budget can only reverse the trends of the 1960s and 1970s. I see, Mr.

Chairman, that from the cut­ ~acks taken in education that we will be returning to middle of the road teaching,standardized testing,teachers dependency on textbooks

April 21, 1978 Tape 1355 DW - 2 HR. J. HODDER: all of those things, Mr. Chairman. At the present time we have plans for ·accreditation of schools. Will this disappear? In the Budget,blocks were put in the path of students attending university and school boards were given finarcial responsibility that they could not afford,!f!d the most important reason why teachers and students and parents are upset is because their dreams have been shattered.We thought we were moving forward but instead we are returning to the things that I just mentioned.

And at the preseat time let us ' look at some of the things that we would like to overcome in our schools today. At the present time We have an alien curriculum:rextbooks are written on the mainland and are geared to an Ontario value system~and I think it is crucial to this Province that we develop a curriculum geared to the needs of Newfoundland students. Students must learn to appreciate the Province,the life and death struggle,if you will,that we have with nature in this Province,and the problems we have trying to make a living from the forest and from· our fishery. And if this Province is to develop, Mr.

Chairman, we must educate our people to the needs of this Province)le must develop a curriculum so that we understar.d what we are, who we are,what we have and how to deal with what we have .. \nd these are the strides that we were hoping to see in our school systems and these are the things that can only be done if the teacher has the wherewithal to do it,and the school board has the ability to run the program and the teacher has the proper ratio in his classroom and the proper time to develop programs.

I think we must also learn to articulate our needs in this Province.6ne of a lot of problems in rural areas in this Province is that many people have not been trained to articulate their needs. The schools are doing nothing about it and I believe that we must teach children to become active,participating students who understand our Province and the functioning of its political, economic and social system. Hr.

Chairman, the announced cut backs in education have stopped this,stymied this effectively.~ I believe that we are on the right track 1 the teachers 'were on the righ 1: track, the educators were on the right track in this Province : but we need time.

April 21, 1978 Tape 1355 pw - 3 MR. J. HODDER: There are many teac hers in the l?rovince who a.re moVing in the right direction,and some of tho_se teachers were younger teachers and these youn ger teachet"s 1who are full of enet"gy and bright and have just come into the sehool system,they a re the first ones to go, ~r . Chairman, and so what we are l osin g is we are losing some of our best talent in the- sehools.

April 21, 1978 Tape No. 1356