Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 16 (36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-16

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 16 - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, March 12, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROC AN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANIT OBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

653 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, March 12, 1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Janet Pidgeon, Muriel Sweet, Mary Thompson and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may. be please? to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Prazruk) to constder immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms.

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): I beg to present the petition of James Allum, Tom Moody, Steve Webb and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale).

It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS the provincial government has embarked upon a project in which it is closing hospital kitchens and having hospital food transported in from Toronto for reheating; and

WHEREAS this proposal will not improve the quality of food but will cost hundreds of jobs to the provincial economy; and

WHEREAS on December 8th of 1997, the provincial cabinet staged a photo opportunity for the media in which government MLAs were served chicken bre�st from a chef flown in from Toronto for the occaswn while the actual meal served residents that night was macaroni and peas; and

WHEREAS this proposal will result in more health care dollars being spent on questionable privatization projects; and

WHEREAS in December of 1997, the provincial government was forced to drop a similar privatization scheme involving home care which had been opposed by the clients, families and the public; and

WHEREAS once again the provincial government without consultation has committed itself to a privatization project which will likely cost taxpayers more money for a poorer quality service, thus forgetting the patients who deserve better care. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms.

Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: No. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS the provincial government has embarked upon a project in which it is closing hospital kitchens

654 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 19 98 and having hospital food transported in from Toronto for reheating; and

WHEREAS this proposal will not improve the quality of food but will cost hundreds of jobs to the provincial economy; and

WHEREAS on December 8th of 1997, the provincial cabinet staged a photo opportunity for the media in which government MLAs were served chicken breast from a chef flown in from Toronto for the occasion while the actual meal served residents that night was macaroni and peas; and

WHEREAS this proposal will result in more health care dollars being spent on questionable privatization projects; and

WHEREAS in December of 1997, the provincial government was forced to drop a similar privatization scheme involving home care which had been opposed by the clients, families and the public; and

WHEREAS once again the provincial government without consultation has committed itself to a privatization project which will likely cost taxpayers more money for a poorer quality service, thus forgetting the patients who deserve better care. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms.

Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS the provincial government has embarked upon a project in which it is closing hospital kitchens and having hospital food transported in from Toronto for reheating; and

WHEREAS this proposal will not improve the quality of food but will cost hundreds of jobs to the provincial economy; and

WHEREAS on December 8th of 1997, the provincial cabinet staged a photo opportunity for the media in which government MLAs were served chicken breast from a chef flown in from Toronto for the occasion while the actual meal served residents that night was macaroni and peas; and

WHEREAS this proposal will result in more health care dollars being spent on questionable privatization projects; and

WHEREAS in December of 1997, the provincial government was forced to drop a similar privatization scheme involving home care which had been opposed by the clients, families and the public; and

WHEREAS once again the provincial government without consultation has committed itself to a privatization project which will likely cost taxpayers more money for a poorer quality service, thus forgetting the patients who deserve better care. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon fifteen Kindergarten to Grade 9 students from Home Schooling under the direction of Mrs. Sandy Noble. This school is located in the constituency of Charleswood. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

March 12, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 655 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD First Minister Apology Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, St. Boniface Hospital has had a proud tradition of working for our community and working for the citizens of this province. It has had people who have worked as volunteers, have worked as staff, have worked in the communities, have worked on fundraising events and other endeavours that they have a lot of pride in.

They were absolutely shocked yesterday to hear this Premier, who has reduced the staff and cut the beds, blaming them for the situation and crisis at St. Boniface, and for the risk that their accreditation is on, pursuant to the letter that we tabled here yesterday. This Premier has cut over 200 staff; he has cut over 200 beds. I would like, on behalf of the people of St. Boniface and the many volunteers and staff that have worked tirelessly on behalf of patient care, for this Premier to take responsibility for his decisions and apologize for his comments of blaming the people of St. Boniface yesterday. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I recognize that the member opposite likes to play political games every day that he lives in this House and in this political environment, and it is that kind of disservice that he does to the people of this province that results in his being in opposition all the time. He has no credibility. At no time, at no time did I blame the staff or the people who work or the people who volunteer at St. Boniface Hospital for those circumstances, and the member does a disservice to himself and his own credibility for even attempting to put that position forward. *

(1335) Mr. Doer: Again I am very disappointed that the Premier does not recognize that the volunteers that are on the board are the ones that hire the management. I remember and I recall the former Minister of Health, two Ministers of Health ago under this Premier, in implementing this Premier's cuts in health care, said patient care at St. Boniface Hospital would not be adversely affected by the Premier's decisions to cut operating funds for the hospital and cut the beds in that hospital. St. Boniface General Hospital Patient Safety Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to ask the Premier today: does he take any responsibility for the fact that according to nurses, in collaboration with management at the hospital, incidents that jeopardize patient care, incident reports that have been filed documenting jeopardy of patient care have gone, over the last two years, from 187 to 262, a 40 percent increase based on budget cuts that this Premier made and his former Minister of Health said would not impact patient care? Will this Premier start taking responsibility and stop pointing fingers at everybody else except himself? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I take responsibility for everything that our government does every day that I am in office, unlike the member opposite who has the luxury to be able to criticize each and every day, to be able to change his position at will from day to day, from hour to hour, to be able to come up with a twisted, distorted point of view no matter when he wants to come up with his position on any issue just so that he can ensure that he is always being critical of this government.

I will tell him that I am very proud of the fact that since we have been in office for 10 years, we have increased our funding to health care by $600 million a year, that we have been able to provide more than 34 percent of our budget to health care, the second-highest percentage of any province in Canada, that we have been able to increase the number of personal care beds, that we have been able to triple the funding that we give to home care, that we have been able to continue to offer new and better ways for us to adjust a system that was built based on the needs of 30 years ago that has new and emerging and changing needs for an expanding seniors population.

Those are the kinds of things that we will continue to do to improve the opportunities for our health care in future and to be able to assure Manitobans that when they need health care it will be there for them. Funding Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The Premier did not apologize on the first question. He did

656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1998 not answer the question about the 40 percent increase in patient jeopardy in incident reports over the last two years under his stewardship in terms of the crisis in health care. Madam Speaker, we have given this government lots of ideas. We told him not to close Odd Fellows nursing home until he had some place to put the patients before. We said you had to have a long-term plan in health care which, of course, this Premier broke in terms of his broken election promise by promising one thing after the federal budget before the election and doing something else.

I would like to ask this Premier: why should we ever believe this government again when this former Minister of Health said no patients would be in jeopardy on the basis of the cuts that this government has made? Why will the Premier not take responsibility for closing over 200 beds at St. Boniface, firing over 200 staff and leaving the hallways and the hospital in crisis, rather than blaming management, Madam Speaker? *

(1340) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member opposite knows full well that there are changes taking place throughout Canada in the health care system and that the things that he is accusing this government of are the same policies that are being adopted by New Democratic provinces in British Columbia, in Saskatchewan that were implemented hundreds, in fact, thousands of beds cut in Ontario under New Democratic administration.

The only thing that the public knows is that if they relied on the New Democrats under this Leader, all they would have is greater chaos in the system because of the mismanagement that they represent by changing their position every day, every month and every week. That is the kind of chaos that they would not want to have, Madam Speaker, I can assure him. Personal Care Home The Pas-Capital Project Mr.

Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, in the spring of 1995, as I was walking down the hallway here one day, the minister who was then Minister of Health came chasing after me and grabbed my hand and told me to congratulate him. He remembers that. When I asked him what for, he said: because I just announced a $600-million capital, and that will include the construction of the personal care home in The Pas. Then he told me afterwards, he said: and you said it would never be done. Well, we all know that right after the election, that budget was scrapped and there went the personal care home in The Pas.

My question to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) is: who should the people from The Pas believe, the CEO of Norman region who said it will never happen this year or the press releases of this government? Hon. Darren Pramik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I believe it is the St. Paul's facility in The Pas that the member refers to, which is a replacement of 60 hostel beds with a personal care home facility-is a project that is very much needed in that particular community. We would have wished that we could have proceeded with that full capital plan when we did, but we have had to manage the budget.

We managed it in a way that we put a freeze on for the whole province, not just one community. We now have the resources to begin that capital program and, as was announced in the budget, the financial authorities to build that facility are included in this year's package. I am not sure of the status of the work that has to go on with the planning, but I would hope that it can be done as expeditiously as possible to be in the ground. Regrettably, I am not an architect or an engineer, but the financial authorities to proceed on that basis are now in place. Mr.

Lathlin: Madam Speaker, my second question is directed to the Minister of Health. I would like to ask him to explain how it is that even now his government still does not have any design work or planning being done for this project, and yet he knows that his own government reports have shown that The Pas Health Complex is a firetrap. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I am not quite sure which facility the member is- An Honourable Member: St. Paul's. Mr. Pramik: St. Paul's as opposed to The Pas Health Complex. I think the department has been aware. That

March 12, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 657 is why the replacement project is certainly on our priority list and one that has been approved. I would be very happy to share with the member for The Pas an update on the status of that project in terms of the architectural and design work, where it is at. I do not have that in front of me today. I would invite him, as we move through this project, to be a part of it and to share information for the benefit of his community. I would certainly make him aware of it as we progress, but the important point is that the financial authorities to proceed with that project are now in place with this budget, and we are going to get on with it. *

(1345) Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he can explain the statements made by CEO Gerry Hildebrand when he says here, and I quote him: Plans need to be drawn up before renovations and building can occur. He went on to say: This project will not happen this year as the government has not yet spelled out exactly what is going to happen. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I cannot explain the remarks the CEO reported in the paper other than to say this: The capital budget was tabled as part of the budget statement of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson).

Our department is in the process now of advising all the regional health authorities on their approvals. I can tell you that my Deputy Frank DeCock and I have spoken about ways of ensuring that we staff up our Capital Branch to move every project along as fast as is humanly possible. The details on each I do not have in front of me. I am hoping that we are going to be able to move very quickly on all of these projects. Specific projects, I do not have an update on the timing or the state of the archit ectural plans for that project, but the financial authorities are in place.

We will gear up that particular branch to work as quickly as possible to get these projects into the ground. Health Care System Government Action Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my Manitoba is there an inquest going on into the death of children at a children's hospital. Only in Manitoba has there been an inquest into death at a personal care home after we had warned the government. Only in Manitoba has a tertiary facility like HSC been faced with loss of its accreditation because the government cancelled its capital plan.

Only in Manitoba is the other tertiary care facility facing loss of its accreditation because of government cutbacks. Now, after 10 years, Madam Speaker, the Premier said this morning: we can look to improvements in our health care system after a year and a half. How do Manitobans expect us to believe this Premier after 10 years of terrible, inadequate management and not caring for the people of Manitoba? An Honourable Member: Heartlessness. Mr. Chomiak: Heartlessness. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, virtually every one of the kinds of circumstances that the member opposite paints have occurred at various times in the recent past in many different provinces in Canada. An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Filmon: Absolutely. Madam Speaker, in Manitoba we commit over 34 percent of all of our spending to health care. That is the second-highest level of any province in Canada.

In Manitoba, because of the commitments of this government, we have tripled the investment that we make in home care and have been lauded all across Canada as having the best system in home care anywhere in Canada. We in Manitoba have added a thousand beds in personal care homes to make the transition to the community-based system for caring for people. We in Manitoba have made a commitment to hundreds more beds on the personal care bed side that have been announced by the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik), that have been committed in the budget of- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. question is for the Premier (Mr.

Filmon). Only in Madam Speaker: Order, please.

658 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1998 Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, if the members opposite do not want to hear the answer, then they should not ask the question. *

(1350) Nurse Recruitment Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kildonan, with a supplementary question. Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, in Manitoba we have lost, according to MARN's statistics, 11 ,500 nurses down to 11,000. In light of what we have heard today with reports about the nursing incidents, will the Premier guarantee there will be more nurses hired back? How are you going to find those nurses to hire them back in a system that has been decimated by these bed cuts and the loss of confidence in this system, in this Premier and the way you have operated this system? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, several of the points that the member for Kildonan has raised in both his question and his supplementary question flag some of the fundamental problems in health care delivery systems across Canada. No one's fault; they developed over 30 years of building a system-[interjection] Now members opposite really do not want to listen, but I think this is a very key point, and if they spoke to New Democratic Party Health ministers in other provinces, they would have a better appreciation of it.

We built a system when we brought in medicare, beginning in Saskatchewan, of an insurance scheme with private providers. We brought in a Canada Health Act with restrictions in funding, and we have built layer upon layer of administration and governance. We are undergoing one of the major changes in health care probably in this century, as significant as bringing in the medicare system, right across the country. One of those shifts was from the acute care side to the community side. That resulted in those layoff s. Many of those nurses were picked up in other systems.

As the system stabilizes, as we now see, there are many opportunities for people to go into the nursing profession. They will be there because the opportunities are there. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kildonan, with a final supplementary question. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, how can the minister explain the government's inability to hire nurses when the plan for just one-just one of their 12 or so regional health authorities is planning to hire a CEO, a VP corporate services, a VP regional programs, a VP support services, a VP human resources, VP administration, VP professional practice, chief financial officer, chief operating officer, VP health services, executive assistant and on and on and on, and they cannot hire nurses to man the beds that are resulting in loss or potential loss of accreditation in our health care system? Mr.

Praznik: I assume that the member is speaking about the Winnipeg hospital board. An Honourable Member: No, he is not. Mr. Praznik: Well, Madam Speaker, I am not sure which one in their plan, but in the case of our regional health authorities, as they gear up, all of them had to put in place their staff and operations to be able to do the job. The plan and the reality, as they work through those changes, is that they will be absorbing those dollars from what is normally spent on administration and facilities and to do it at the end of the day spending less.

So it will result in a saving that will go directly back into health care. Does it happen overnight? Absolutely not. In fact, if they did it that way, the members would criticize us for not having in place a transition. So you cannot have it both ways. Madam Speaker, when we last winter realized that we were facing the flu issue coming upon us, we did authorize funding for additional beds which meant the staff and the nurses for those beds to staff them, and they were hired. First Minister Apology Request Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, if there was any doubt that after 10 years this government is becoming increasingly aloof, arrogant and out of touch, it is the statements made by this First Minister blaming the St. Boniface Hospital, suggesting that they

March 12, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 659 can fix the problem by cancelling surgery, blaming the management, blaming everybody except himself. I think anybody in this province right now knows there is a crisis in health care. I would like the minister to perhaps take the lead from some of those great, compassionate Tory Premiers, who have admitted their mistakes in recent days, and admit that his health care policies in this province have failed this province and apologize to the people of Manitoba. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member for Thompson can play all the political games that he wants and attempt to misrepresent my comments in any way he wants. The truth of the matter is I have not blamed the people in the hospitals. That is his assertion and he is wrong. *

(1355) Health Care System Government Action Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, the people of Manitoba heard what the Premier said. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his supplementary question now. Mr. Ashton: As a supplementary, I would like to ask the Premier what hope they can take from this rather incredible statement today made by the Premier that says that there will be a massive improvement noticeable by probably the middle of next year. When is the Premier going to recognize that we have a crisis in health care today and we need action today, not in 18 months?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, many of the things that we are doing will have immediate impacts, positive impacts. Just last evening I was out at a gathering at which a number of women approached me and said how pleased they are that we are going to be funding two mobile breast screening units in the province. The commitments that we have made that triple the amount of funding for home care are ones that we have had many countless people stop us and thank us. They have immediate day-to-day impact in a positive way on the system.

What I was speaking about in the transcript that the member opposite quotes is the fact that when you are building personal care home beds, the time between the design, the engineering, the architect's work, the local- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Filmon: And the construction is approximately a year period. We have made the commitments. The construction will be done, and the work is underway. But I will not, Madam Speaker-if I were to have said that it is going to change it tomorrow, the members opposite would have been up tomorrow saying that it cannot be done by tomorrow.

We operate with realism. We do not operate with fantasy and wishing that the members opposite-we do not stand and criticize and criticize without offering positive alternatives, and we are being realistic. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a final supplementary question. Mr. Ashton: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

When will this Premier recognize that the only person in this province living in fantasyland is this Premier who after promising in 1988 and 1990 and 1995 these kinds of planned improvements for health care that today, 10 years with his government in power, we have a crisis in health care? When will the Premier come out of fantasyland and deal with the people who are suff ering because of his health care policies? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, every year that we have been in office we have been adding and adding and adding to the expenditures and investments in the system.

I have been present at the opening of two personal care homes in North Kildonan, numbering I believe around 240 beds. We have opened the Riverview Health Centre with 140 beds, something of that nature. An Honourable Member: Replace.

660 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1998 Mr. Filmon: Well, they are yelling "replace." I remember when they were in government for seven years and refused to deal with that issue. One of the oldest facilities, one of the most time-dated facilities that was in our system, and they refused to deal with it. I have been at the opening of hospitals in areas such as Altona, in areas such as Minnedosa and all of those areas. These are commitments we are making.

That is why we are spending $600 million a year more on health care than they were when they were in office, and that is why the people of Manitoba can rely on us to continue to make that investment, because they know those improvements have been made and will continue to be made. *

(1400) Education System Financing-Property Taxes Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. What Manitobans expect is a sense of fairness when they have to pay taxes. The people who live in Winnipeg School Division No. 1 do not get that sense of fairness. When I contact Beausejour, for example, if you live in a house of value of a hundred thousand dollars, you will pay $760 in school tax. If you live in Winnipeg School Division No. 1, in a house of the same value, you are paying well in excess of a thousand dollars.

I am pleading to the Minister of Finance: will he finally acknowledge the inequities of the financing of public education and make a commitment to deal with that issue? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, this is the same issue that the member for Inkster and I discussed just a day or two ago. I think if he looks at a property tax bill, he will see that it has three components. It has the municipal portion, which is about half of the tax bill.

The other half is related to education, and that is split basically in half again with roughly half of it being for the education support levy and half of it being for the special levy. The education support levy is uniform across the province. The special levy varies significantly by individual school divisions based on choices they make in those divisions in terms of services, costs and so on. So that is how the system currently works. That is one of the reasons why there are diff erences in terms of taxes in various parts of our province. Again, I challenge him-he is onto this issue-be constructive.

Provide some alternatives, some suggestions as to how he sees-if he is suggesting shifting from property tax, how does he suggest those funds be provided? Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I am asking the Minister of Finance to acknowledge the inequities that are there in the financing of public education. I know what it is that he is speaking of in terms of the splitting of the taxes.

The bottom line-and I ask the Minister of Finance-is to finally acknowledge today that there are serious inequities when you have people who live in a house of the same value paying well in excess of a thousand dollars in one area of the province and others who are paying well below $800. There is a serious inequity there. When is this Minister of Finance going to deal with that issue? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, if the houses are of the same value-and we currently in Manitoba have a market assessment which adjusts the values every three years-the diff erence in the tax bill is a result of the mill rates, either a combination of the municipal mill rate or the special levy mill rate, because the education support levy is the same province-wide. So those are decisions on the municipal-those are decisions made at the municipal level in terms of the kinds of services they are going to provide to those communities.

On the special levy, again those are decisions made at the individual school division level in terms of the types of services, the quality of services, how they end up settling with the collective bargaining with their teachers, with their other employees and so on. So those are the factors that cause the kinds of diff erences that the member is referring to. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Finance is wrong. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster was recognized for a final supplementary question on which no

preamble is required. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, can, then, the Minister of Finance tell my constituents why

March 12, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 661 collectively every year they have to pay millions of dollars more towards public education than other constituents throughout the province of Manitoba? Why do those constituents have to do that? Can the Minister of Finance explain to my constituents that simple question? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I would suggest to the member for Inkster that that might be a good question that his constituents ask the school trustees for that area because, as I have already explained to him, the education support levy, the mill rate for that levy, which is set by the province, is uniform right across the province. Where we have diff erences are on the special levies which are different for each individual school division across our province, and that is for a range of reasons. It is for the level of teachers' salaries, other salaries, other services, other costs and so on.

So that certainly is an appropriate question for him and his constituents to be asking the trustees in that particular school division. Flin Flon General Hospital Capital Projects Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance. Further to the questions posed earlier by my honourable colleague from The Pas, Flin Flon was also promised a personal care home on March 16, 1995, and this project, along with many others, died after the election.

Could the Minister of Finance tell the residents of Flin Flon why he is quoted in the Flin Flon Reminder as stating that funds have been slated to renovate a second dialysis station at the Flin Flon General Hospital, when the CEO of the Norman Regional Health Authority says this project and other renovations at the hospital will not happen at all this year? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I have not had the opportunity to speak with the CEO of that health authority to determine exactly what the CEO has said.

I seem to get the sense that a line out of a story is somewhat reverberating here and being applied to every particular situation. I will endeavour to find out exactly what the timing is on those projects. The authority, the financial authorities are in place. I am not sure what work has to be done in terms of architectural design, engineering, et cetera, but it sounds like providing for a dialysis unit should be able to move forward relatively quickly, and I will endeavour to find that out, the specifics, for the member for Flin Flon. Mr.

Jennissen: To the Minister of Health, Madam Speaker: if the projects listed in government press releases are not going to actually happen in the same year of the releases, why other than to try and confuse the public did this government put out these releases? Mr. Praznik: You know, Madam Speaker, I have followed politics most of my life, and I remember growing up in the Selkirk constituency, our MLA in 1969-then became MLA-Howard Pawley, promised a hospital in 1969; he promised it again in 1973; he promised it again in '77; and the Conservatives under Bud Sherman built it in the 1980s.

So I make that point only to illustrate that there are a number-and if the member would like a detailed discussion on the process for capital improvements, whether they be in Health or Highways or other areas, I would be delighted to do it, but there are a number of processes that have to be gone through. One has approval in principle, one has design, et cetera, funding for construction. Each step has to be gone through. We have the financial authorities in place to build these projects. If the designs and plans are not there ready to go, that work has to be done.

Surely to goodness the members would not want us putting out the contract without having a plan for the contractor to build. Mr. Jennissen: To the same minister: when will the Minister of Health list the actual dates of construction, costs and details of any of these proposed renovation projects at the Flin Flon General Hospital so that Flin Flon residents can judge for themselves whether these are indeed real commitments and not just more so called announcements? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the member certainly flags what I would consider to be a reasonable expectation.

As we work through the details on each of these projects, we will want to convey that to the communities. With respect to things like specific costs, as the member may note, we have estimates of costs for projects, but ultimately until they are tendered and we have the results of tenders, the specifics of course will

662 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1998 not be known, only our estimates. But I would invite the member, as we develop the details of this plan-and as I have indicated earlier, I have asked my deputy to ensure that our Capital Branch is staff ed sufficiently to be able to get on with these projects as quickly as possible. We appreciate the urgency of them. We are certainly not happy that there was a delay in many of those projects, and I would be delighted, through my office, to keep the member informed so that he can ensure his constituents are well aware of the progress of these projects.

Brandon General Hospital Physician Resources-Pediatrics Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Health, who should know that we are now in a crisis situation in Westman because the two remaining pediatricians have now formally advised that they intend to withdraw their on-call services at the Brandon General Hospital tomorrow because they are overworked, underpaid and frustrated after many, many months of fruitless negotiations.

The CEO of the regional health authority has publicly stated that he has no role in the dispute and that negotiations are directly between the minister's department and the Manitoba Medical Association. He said that regardless, he has no money to pay- *

(1410) Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question. Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the minister now take necessary action to deal with this crisis and ensure the people of Westman that pediatric services will continue to be offered at the Brandon General Hospital after tomorrow? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member is quite right in quoting the comments of the CEO, and the CEO is very accurate. ·The issue as to levels of remuneration for services that physicians provide is a matter that is dealt with by the Ministry of Health, the Province of Manitoba with the representatives of physicians, the Manitoba Medical Association.

The last thing I think we would want to get into is what we had happening across the province on occasions in the past where special arran gements were negotiated between individual hospital boards with physicians, and we ended up with a very, very different system of remuneration. I can tell the member that the Ministry of Health did off er to recruit a pediatrician from South Africa. That was not accepted by the regional health authority. That person may have been able to have been recruited to come into that place.

We also worked with them to convert our fee for service into an alternative payment arrangement which would have resulted in a payment of nearly $175,000 a year per physician, which I think the member would agree is not an underpayment. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Brandon East, with a supplementary question. Mr. Leonard Evans: Exactly what will the minister do to deal with this crisis tomorrow that is a threat to children and their families in the Westman area?

Because the solutions he talks of are long-term solutions; they may work in the long term, but they will not address the crisis that exists right here and now. Mr. Praznik: We use the word "crisis" sometimes loosely, and sometimes it becomes used for issues. Surely when we have a significant amount of dollars on the table, this is really a negotiation. We are beginning the process of negotiating a new contract with the Manitoba Medical Association, and that has to be dealt with on a province-wide basis; otherwise it will just not work. It would not be fair to other physicians.

I understand that the Brandon Regional Health Authority has done work to provide provision of service for people in Brandon in emergency situations. It is not the most desirable situation, but the member well knows from his background in labour that when you have these disputes happen, sometimes they are not always resolved quickly or the way one would like it, but alternative arrangements, I understand, have been made by the Brandon Regional Health Authority. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have two rulings for the House.

March 12, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 663 I am ruling on a matter I took under advisement on May 27 during Question Period. The opposition House leader raised a point of order about the orderliness of an answer provided by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) to a question posed by the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh).

The answer was: "I note how the member, on the one hand, slams the professional people who are working in our public service and that he in fact seems to derive a certain amount of pleasure out of criticizing public servants." The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) did have a point of order in that the Minister of Justice did contravene Beauchesne Citation 417 because the reply did not appear to be responding to the question asked.

I cannot sustain the charge that the minister was imputing motives, but I would encourage all ministers when replying to questions to respond directly to the matter raised in the question. *** I took under advisement on June 19, so that I could review Hansard, a point of order raised by the government House leader during Question Period. The point of order concerned the use of the word "fraudulent" by the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) in putting a question to the Premier.

The word was used in the question: "Will he admit that the election promise that he made at the Remand Centre and before all those lights and cameras was fraudulent , Beauchesne Citation 490 on page 148 shows that the word "fraudulent" has been ruled to be parliamentary, but Citation 489 on page 145 shows that the word "fraud" and the words "fraudulent character" have been ruled out of order in the House of Commons.

We have several Manitoba Speakers' rulings on the use of the words "fraud" and "fraudulent." I would also draw the attention of the House to Beauchesne Citation 491, which on the subject of language reads in part: "A word which is parliamentary in one context may cause disorder in another context, and therefore be unparliamentary." In the matter raised on June 19, I am ruling that the government House leader did not have a point of order, but based on previous Manitoba precedent, I would urge all honourable members to pick and choose their words with care so as not to cause disorder. *

(1420) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Fiscal Stabilization Fund Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I want to take this opportunity to discuss the bottom line in the budget, which I would maintain, Madam Speaker, has become a meaningless figure. The question of whether we have a surplus or a deficit in this province is meaningless because of the shell game that is going on with the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. If members would look at the financial statements as reported in the budget, you will see a footnote that $60 million has been added to revenue, just a little footnote.

It is not on the line where it usually has been over the years, but there is a footnote there adding $60 million. If that $60 million had not been added, we would not have had a $23-million surplus but rather a $37-million deficit. So now you see it, now you do not. The interesting thing is, after putting in the $60 million to be able to show a $23-million surplus, what happens to the $23-million surplus? It is then put back into the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. So you take $60 million out, and then you put $23 million back in. So the music goes around and around and it comes out here. You can look at this.

You can see this on the end of document here. Here it is: $23-million budget surplus going back into the fund after you took $60 million out to make the books look good. If you were really increasing the spending on health care by $100 million, if that was another real $100 million, we would be showing, just as it stands now, a $77-million deficit, instead of a $23-million surplus. So, Madam Speaker, I say categorically, this is a political document, a political budget. It is misleading to the people of Manitoba, and it is becoming more confusing as the years go on.

There has been a lot of history here, where we have seen the government do this in the past, but this year, above all, it is just totally fraudulent in the way it has been presented to the people.

664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1998 AECL-Pinawa M�. Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): Madam Speaker, I nse today to express my extreme disappointment with the federal Liberal government in relation to the AECL lab in Pinawa. A critical deadline in the commercialization process passed last Monday when the federal government failed to present their formal plan of action for the facility. Upon news that the federal government intended to shut down AECL the Filmon government took immediate action to try, and �everse that decision.

Our government recognized that If AECL were closed down, it would be a tremendous loss to Pinawa and all of Manitoba. During the fall session of 1996, I introduced a private member's resolution calling on the federal government to provide a long-term commitment to the Whiteshell Laboratories. In the course of that debate, members o�posite repeated!� referenced their numerous trips to Pmawa and the Importance of the facility in our economy, �ut they failed its 1,800 employees by talking the resolutiOn out.

Madam Speaker, even the Liberal members of this House acknowledged the need to pass that resolution, and I thanked them for that. For over two years the employees of Whiteshell Laboratories and the residents of Pinawa have been put through the uncertainty and trauma of not knowing whether they would have a job or a source of income for the future. This has had a very significant effect on the health and well-being of those affected and on the community. The survival of the community of Pinawa and the significant economic contribution of Whiteshell Laboratories to Manitoba are at a critical juncture.

The commercialization of this facility must be completed in the near future and provide the foundation for the future growth and development of eastern Manitoba. Earlier this week the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, the Honourable Jim Downey, wrote to the federal Natural Resources minister and requested an immediate meeting to discuss the crisis which threatens the future of Whiteshell Laboratories, its employees and the community of Pinawa and the economy of Manitoba. I strongly urge the federal minister to take action. Thank you. Health Care System Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I mentioned earlier in Question Period that this government is increasingly aloof, arrogant and out of touch, and most noticeably !he co_mments made again by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) m this Chamber show that he has no idea that Manitoba's health care system is in crisis. In fact, Madam Speaker, I challenge the Premier to go and visit some of our hospitals, to go visit, like we did, at St. Boniface, to talk to the staff at the St. Boniface Hospital, to talk to the patients.

They will tell the Premier that his health care policies are not working and that there is a crisis in Manitoba health care.

I want to say, Madam Speaker, that there is a crisis for the increasing number of people who are being bumped from elective surgery, so-called elective surgery, because of the mismanagement of our health care system-people like Alice Larson who came from the isolated community of Thicket Portage, arrived in Winnipeg, went down three days later and found that her surgery had been cancelled and ended up having to stay in Winnipeg for a week because of that; people like a constituent of mine today who had surgery cancelled at Misericordia, along with eight other patients; people like Fred Cordell from Pikwitonei who has been told time and time and time again he is going to have to wait for cataract surgery.

Madam Speaker, the reality is that we are in a crisis situation, and it is in very large part because of this government's policies. In 1988 they promised a plan for health care; in 1990 they promised a plan for health care; in 1995 they promised a plan for health care, and today we have the Premier saying, well, there will be massive improvement, noticeable by probably the middle of next year. I want to suggest the only way we are going to get improvement in health care by the middle of next year and hopefully earlier is if there is an election and we elect an NDP government that is concerned about health care.

Crime Prevention Office-Portage Ia Prairie Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): This morning, I, along with the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) and the mayor of Portage Ia Prairie, attended the official grand opening of Portage Ia Prairie's new Crime Prevention Office. I would like to congratulate

March 12, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 665 all those involved in this initiative, especially Ms. Marie Barrett, our crime prevention co-ordinator, for working so hard in finding this location. Ms. Barrett has spent many hours with the RCMP detachment in Portage la Prairie, and I am confident that she will be very successful in her position. The importance of having a civilian crime prevention co ordinator cannot be overstated. Ms.

Barrett will, in her capacity, free up time for the local RCMP members so they can put their energies forward in time more efficient and as well enhance the operation of the community crime prevention programs. As a member of the Neighbourhood Crime Watch, I know that crime prevention begins in our own homes. Many of my neighbours are Block Parents, members of the Neighbourhood Crime Watch and active in the Citizens on Patrol program. I am pleased that our government recognizes the importance of these projects by contributing $86,000 over the next two years.

Our government's partnership with the City of Portage la Prairie has made this project a reality. Portage la Prairie is the first rural community to undertake such a project, and I believe we can serve as a model for all communities in Manitoba. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The rotation today is two members of the official opposition, two members of the government and one member from the independent. However, in order to expedite the process, I would suggest that members be a little bit more alert and on their feet a little more quickly so as to avoid the confusion.

Education System Financing Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I thought maybe what I would do is take advantage of members' statements just to add a little bit to the question that I had asked earlier. There is a very serious inequity, as I have pointed out, with respect to the way in which education is in fact being financed. I look at education, in most part, in the same way I do health care. We have a publicly financed health care system. Equally, we have a publicly financed educational system.

I believe, ultimately, that it would be wonderful to see that education system financed through general revenues, but recognize the fact that that is something that has to come over time, that you cannot do that overnight.

What really concerns me is that over the years what we have seen is a gradual increase in the reliance of financing public education on the property tax and the portion of the property tax which is most inequitable, and that is the portion in which the school divisions collect for funding of education, to the extent where we have some residents of school divisions paying literally hundreds and hundreds of dollars more just because they happen to live in a certain area of the province of Manitoba. To me, that is not fair and the government needs to recognize that inequity and has to deal with it.

This government has not dealt with it, and it is their responsibility. They cannot pass it off on, well, it is the school division, school divisions provide diff erent programs and so forth, because one could use that same sort of a logic, if you like, for health care. There are certain regions in the province that require more health care services, yet no one is penalized, no certain area is penalized geographically in the city of Winnipeg. With those few words, Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak. *

(1430) ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Fifth Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows, who has 29 minutes remaining. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, yesterday I said I would table "on your side . . . An Update for Manitoba's New Democrats," and I would like to do that now.

I would also like to continue reading the comments that my constituents sent to me via a mail-back that I recently did, and they had some things to say about child poverty. For example, they

666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March I2 , I9 98 said this should not be allowed to happen in this province, let alone in this country. We need to discourage child poverty. Number one in child poverty, No. 1 in teen pregnancies. Well, it is interesting how, when you reach No. I, people remember it and then, when you drop to No. 2 or No. 3, people do not pay attention to those statisti cs. All they do is remember that you were No. I and they think we still are No. I in terms of child poverty. Regardless of whether we are No.

I or No. 3, the statistics on child poverty in Manitoba are absolutely appalling, and I believe we are very high, if not the highest, in teen pregnancies. Someone else said child poverty in some cases is approaching Third World status. Poverty and crime are interactive. You have one with the other in most cases. There should be more subsidized child care, so that low-income earners can aff ord to send their children to daycare after school instead of home to get into trouble because there is no one there.

My constituents had this to say on jobs and wages: since the Conservatives have been in power Manitoba has lost many large corporations to either another province, the States, or even Mexico. Increase minimum wage to a level that is significant to the cost of living for the next century. President Clinton stated that he would raise the minimum wage by $2 by the year 2000. The Conservative government has been responsible for a number of job losses and increased unemployment to the levels not seen since the I9 30s.

Now, I think here we are also dealing with perception, but if you live in the north end and the unemployment rate is double or triple or more of what it is in the city of Winnipeg, it probably does feel like the unemployment rate is the worst since the I9 30s. About the government, someone said the government should stop misleading people-I am paraphrasing here-misleading people that there is no money. Do something useful with the surplus. The government is paying no attention to the Provincial Auditor and the Public Accounts committee.

Now, I thought that was a rather enlightened comment, because most people probably do not know what the function is of the Provincial Auditor and probably do not follow very closely the Public Accounts committee, which is usually only in the news once a year or so when they meet. However, the Provincial Auditor has had a lot of things to say about the Public Accounts committee and how it could be improved. I am pleased that one of my constituents noted this.

I wish I had known who it was, so that I could send them the Auditor's annual report, but we will be hearing more about this, because our members on the Public Accounts committee, including the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), who is the chairperson, will be trying to bring about the reforms that the Provincial Auditor is recommending for the Public Accounts committee so that we as members of the Legislature can hold the government more accountable for their spending policies, something that is diffi cult to do if you do not have the proper information.

Mind you, it is difficult to do at the best of times when the government provides misleading information like suggesting that they are going to spend $I 00 million more this year than last year in health care. It is very interesting to watch and to listen to the answers of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) to our questions about that, because he very cleverly says: budget over budget.

Well, that may be true, budget over budget, but he does not want to admit that if you look at actual spending compared to budgeted spending the diff erence is very, very small, and the reason being that extra funds were authorized by way of special warrants.

We probably will not have the proof of this until Public Accounts are published for the most recent fiscal year, but I think it will prove our case that this government was using phoney numbers in their budget to mislead the people of Manitoba into thinking that they are spending more money on health care when in fact the amount-well, misleading people into thinking they are spending $100 million more in health care when the actual amount is more like a million dollars, a big, big diff erence.

One of my constituents also said: the Speaker of the Legislature should be elected by the Legislature -instead of appointed by the Premier. I think if this Premier were smart he would bring in a bill to amend the

March 12, 1998 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 667 election of the Speaker before the end of this Legislature. On taxes, someone said that large corporations are not paying their share of taxes. On gambling, someone said that all VL Ts should be removed from bars, restaurants, et cetera. They are a menace to our society and a shameful grab of low-income earners' money, preying on the naive and weak. We have supported a petition to ask the government to allow for plebiscites so that people in municipalities can vote on whether or not they want VL Ts in their municipality.

These petitions are being mailed out to all over the province and it will be interesting to see the kind of response that we get. Certainly plebiscites are the kind of idea that this government should not be adverse to. However, I doubt very much that they will amend the legislation to allow for plebiscites. One of the many things that was lacking in this budget is attention to problems of Burrows constituency and to the inner city as a whole. In fact, the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) in his Budget Address talked about the social deficit.

Certainly, there is a big social deficit, and in some cases the government is pretending to address these issues, for example, in health care, in other cases totally ignoring the social deficit so that in my constituency where we have probably hundreds of vacant houses and placarded houses-that is, placarded by the Health department as being unsanitary-there is nothing in this budget to address that, either by having more housing inspections or by having a housing renovation program either for landlords or for tenants or an infill housing program to fill in the many, many vacant lots in the inner city.

We have declining property values. In fact, one of the City of Winnipeg health inspectors tells me that property values have probably declined by a third in the inner city, or at least in the north end in his area, in recent years, and that is something that aff ects me. For example, our house on St. John's A venue was assessed at $59,000. The city lowered that to $56,000. I talked to a real estate agent recently who said I could realistically expect to get $35,000 to $45,000 for our house, which means that the value of our property is drastically declining. I certainly empathize with my constituents.

For example, a police officer who has a very nice house, a house that I have been in, just west of Arlington Street, he put all new ornamental brick in the front of his house. He extensively re-drywalled the interior, put in a new kitchen, a new bathroom, put in a recreation room in the basement, completely finished the basement, and he listed his house for $79,000. He could not even get one person to come and look at the house because as soon as they found out it was in the north end, they were not interested.

So we have hundreds, maybe even thousands of property owners in the inner city with property values in extreme decline. *

(1440) And what does this government do? This government encourages suburban sprawl. They encourage the development of Headingley.

They encourage the development of commuter communities in the ex-urban or commuter-shed area around the city of Winnipeg at the expense of the inner city and at the expense of, I would say, the city of Winnipeg and all property owners in Winnipeg, and the only explanation that I can see for that is that they hold the seats in the Legislature for those areas around the city, and they do not represent people in the inner city, so they do not care about our problems and our declining property values. [interjection] Well, there is a significant exception, and that is that we represent the constituency of Selkirk, and I hope that we will for many, many years.

Now, my constituents are extremely poor. I came across a breakdown of incomes according to postal code, and this identifies the total median incomes for 1995. Three of these postal codes are in Burrows constituency, and one of them is the lowest median income in the entire city of Winnipeg. Those postal codes are R2X which is north Winnipeg west of Arlington where the median income is $16,200 a year; R2W, north end, $13,500; and R3A Winnipeg centre, north of Notre Dame Avenue, $10,800 a year. What is there in this budget to address the concerns of these people who are earning extremely low incomes?

Very, very little. There are some things that this government is doing to make it look good and to make it look as if it is concerned about these problems, but I thought the most telling comment was by David Northcott, the executive director of Winnipeg Harvest

668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1998 food bank. He said : I think there are a lot of really good parents out there who just need a few extra dollars each month to buy groceries. They do not need to be told how to be good parents. This is in response to the government allocating money for a bunch of programs for children which in themselves are probably, in a small way, going to help a small number of people, but they do nothing to address income poverty.

What they do is they provide programs for nutrition or early childhood education or whatever, which we are in favour of, especially if it means more children can access affordable child care, for example, but it does absolutely nothing to address income poverty. The reason is-and I think it points to a fundamental diff erence between us and the government-that this government does not trust people. They particularly do not trust poor people. In fact, this government has been guilty of poor-bashing over the last number of years, beginning in 1994 with the welfare snitch line.

So we get the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), for example, saying that there is no guarantee that if you give people more money, they will spend it on basic necessities. Well, of course, there are no guarantees. There are no guarantees for almost anything in life. There are no guarantees that when the government announces they are going to build continuing care facilities before an election that after an election they wi ll actually build them, or, that when they say they are going to solve the crisis in health care that they are actually going to solve it.

But I think that the vast majority of people, if they are given a little bit more money, will make the right decision and buy food for their family, avail themselves of better housing or clothe their children better. Some of the problems that people experience are absolutely appalling. Yesterday, I got a phone call from an employee of City of Winnipeg Social Services; that is the city's welfare department. One of my constituents has five children. She is pregnant, and her husband left her. She is having trouble getting enrolled in the mother's allowance program, the provincial welfare program.

The worker said that one of her clients had to sign an affidavit saying that the ex partner was no longer living in the house. So, the individual phoned me and said, Mr. Martindale, can you help me? I have no food in the house and I am waiting for my cheque. I went to pick it up, and they said it is in the mail. So, what am I going to feed my five children? I have no food in the house. I said, well, I will help you. So, she phoned me back in the afternoon to say her cheque was not in the mail. I went to Atlantic Garden City United Church and picked up some groceries and delivered them to her.

This sort of thing should not have to happen, but it does frequently. We know how often it happens because we know the number of people that are using food bank outlets. We know that about 40 percent of all the users of food banks are children, at least in the city of Winnipeg. I have in front of me the News Basket, which is the newsletter of Winnipeg Harvest Food Bank, for January 1998. I would like to quote from it. It says the United Nations Development Program found Canada to be the best place in the world to live, and our government modestly takes much of the credit.

In 1989, Ottawa promised to eliminate child poverty in Canada by the year 2000. Campaign 2000 was born. Well, what has happened since 1989? Has the number of poor children declined or has it risen? Well, unfortunately, the number of poor children has risen by 58 percent since November 1989, and that was only until 1995. I continue to quote: Our expectation had been that by 1998, two-thirds of the way to the year 2000, we should have approximately only 300,000 children living in poverty. The actual number is 1,472,000. Canada may be the best place in the world to live for some but not our chi ldren.

I continue to quote from this newsletter where it says 1997 was the year social allowances in Winnipeg distributed to their recipients a list of food banks, soup kitchens and clothing depots. This is the first time that social allowances has openly acknowledged that the amounts people are entitled to does not cover their basic human needs. I think that is absolutely appalling that the system and the provincial government would actually admit that. Now I would like to begin to wind up here by addressing some comments to our amendment to the Budget Debate by our Leader which says that we regret

March 12, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 669 that this budget ignores the present and future needs of Manitobans by (

a) failing to address the crisis in health care. Well, not only has this government failed to address the crisis, but it seems that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) blames everyone and takes no responsibility. I quote the Winnipeg Sun for Saturday, February 21, 1998. There are some very interesting comments here that I think the Minister of Health probably regrets that he ever made, and I quote: Give me a break. You know I am just tired of this crap. He says these guys get paid more money than I do to run their hospitals. He says be realistic. What do you expect out of us?

Well, we expect that this provincial government would plan, that they would carry out their election promises, that they would not have to wait until there is a crisis, that they would not have to wait until people are on stretchers in hallways before they do something about the problem. Ms. Diane McGifTord (Osborne): In fact, real health care. Mr. Martindale: In fact, real health care, as my colleague for Osborne says. I think probably this government regrets, in a major way, that they cancelled those capital expenditures in 1995 after the election.

They may even regret their balanced budget act which forced them into some of this stupidity, because they could have very easily said we are going to exempt capital expenditures, because we know that when you build highways and you build hospitals and you build schools you have a capital asset. I think the public would have been quite prepared to say, yes, we think it makes sense to borrow money to build hospitals or to build personal care homes and to amortize it over a number of years.

Certainly, we think that you should balance your operating budget, but I think this government probably regrets that they did not start construction of those personal care home beds in 1995. If they had, some of those buildings like Betel Home, where they had the sod turning, would have been open by now, and they would not have this crisis in the hospitals on their hands. We also regret that this government has failed to relieve the stresses on our education system, and one of those stresses has to do with facilities.

At Sisler High School, where one of our pages today attends, they have asked for two different kinds of renovations and improvements. They got one but not the other; the other one is going to be quite interesting. I have encouraged the students to go to the Manitoba Human Rights Commission and file a complaint because, in eff ect, the girls have no change rooms. This is not fair that our women athletes at Sisler High School should have to change in the washrooms. We have some very good athletes there.

In fact, Sisler Varsity girls defeated the Kelvin High School and then they defeated Daniel Mac, their archrivals, to win their division title. They are proceeding to the conference or city-wide finals this weekend, and we wish them luck. But we were very disappointed. The parent council that I am part of at that school was very disappointed that the government has not agreed to provide adequate facilities in terms of change rooms for students.

We also regret that this government has failed to provide new hope for Manitoba children which I have already talked about, and we regret that they have failed to provide new opportunities for aboriginal Manitobans. There have been some minor announce ments in this regard, all of which I think are designed to make this government look good, but none of which have to do with fundamental changes in the way our society relates to aboriginal people. *

(1450) As we have pointed out time and time again, we have said that we endorse the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and of the federal government's Royal Commission, and that we expect this government to move in areas of their jurisdiction, and yet they have implemented almost none of those recommendations. There are some pilot projects. There are some success stories like the Hollow Water Healing Circle, but we think that those could be replicated in many, many communities.

Just one small example that we have endorsed is to have youth justice committees in every community in the province of Manitoba, because where they have been implemented, whe_ther it is in the city of Winnipeg or in rural Manitoba, they have been extremely successful. .

670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1998 I remember being at an interagency meeting and hearing a report from the staffperson for the aboriginal youth justice committee in the north end of Winnipeg, and we were told that in the first year not one of the young people who appeared before them reoffended. With success stories like that, we think that it needs to be replicated in as many communities in Manitoba as possible, and we would hope that this government would do that.

However, they will probably do no such thing until it is time to make announcements before the next election and hope and expect that people will believe them when, in fact, we listened to many announcements before the last election, the best example being that they would build hundreds of personal care home beds and then after the election to cancel those promises, a decision which I think all of their members are regretting now because, when it comes to the crisis in health care, they are in big, big trouble. With those remarks I am going to conclude.

I look forward to hearing the debate of all honourable members. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise this afternoon to add my comments to those of my colleagues with regard to a very positive Budget Address, but let me begin by first of all offering my congratulations and my welcome to the new pages in the Assembly. I did not have an opportunity to do that during the Throne Speech Debate, so I would like to extend my welcome and my congratulations to the pages for serving our Assembly here in the way that they do.

In addition to that, I would also like to congratulate the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), a new addition to our Assembly, indeed a very good addition to our side of the House and to the Assembly of Manitoba. Indeed, I know he will serve his constituents in a very honourable way. Madam Speaker, I would like to begin by first of all congratulating the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) on an excellent Budget Address, one that I would like to say my constituents are extremely pumped about.

They are extremely happy about the approach that has been taken with regard to the economy of our province with regard to the fiscal responsibility that this government has accepted and indeed the direction that has been set by this government and this Minister of Finance. Madam Speaker, I would also like to congratulate the minister who travelled throughout the province to consult with more than 2,000 Manitobans to set the priorities for this budget.

Again, it speaks to the openness of this government, the openness of this Minister of Finance to ensure that the grassroots of our province indeed have a say in what the direction of their province should be in setting the budget and in progressing ahead with the growth of our province. Madam Speaker, in just over a month our government will be celebrating I 0 years of service to Manitobans. The goals and objectives that we began with have remained consistent until today, and that was to help build a social and economic climate that will improve the quality of life for all Manitobans for now and for the future.

In short, we have been working with all of our constituents and citizens of this province to make our great province the best place in which to live, to work and to raise a family. Madam Speaker, it is the continued support from all Manitobans, regardless of where they live, that has allowed us to stay the course of fiscal responsibility, but I must divert for just a moment, because the NDP have been on what I call a campaign to nowhere over the past while, and they are not fooling Manitobans. That is why I call it the campaign to nowhere, because Manitobans understand them only too well.

Madam Speaker, the NDP have launched a campaign to criticize our government as tired and old and without a vision. They say that our government, a three-time winner, might I say, is no longer able to lead the people, and they want those same people to give over the reins of government to the NDP. Well, Manitobans are smarter than that. They are not prepared or have no desire to put their trust into an opposition that has no vision, that is a dinosaur and a three-time loser. It is just simply not going to happen. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Mr.

Deputy Speaker, Manitobans chose us a decade ago for our sound fiscal management, for our vision of a solid economic framework towards sustaining a

March 12, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 671 clima te. of growth. Now all of our citizens are reaping the benefits of a government that has kept its focus on doing the job that it was chosen to do, to lift the burden of too many years of debt off their shoulders that was placed upon them by the uncaring government of the day, and that was the government that was led by Howard Pawley. The 1998-99 budget, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, continues a tradition that was started by us some four years ago to reduce the debt for the fourth straight year and the fourth straight time, and this time we are able to double the amount of payment that is going to reduce the debt. What this does is it allows us to use those scarce dollars that were being wasted on interest payments to be used for programs, and all Manitobans are benefiting as a result of this fiscal management that has been undertaken by our government.

Mr Deputy Speaker, the good fiscal management, combined with a strong economy, has enabled us for the fourth consecutive year to table a balanced budget. As a result, this year more than ever, the benefits are going to be shared by all Manitobans through such things as tax cuts, improvements in health and education, social services, and indeed to deal with every aspect of our society, seniors, our youth, our children, throughout the entire province. We are not leaving anyone out in terms of everyone sharing in the benefits of this budget.

In addition, to continue our record of no new taxes, which is Canada's longest running tax freeze of more than a decade, we have now been able to introduce a 2 percent cut in personal income tax, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Manitobans are going to begin to see the benefits on their pay cheques beginning in July. We also continue with further tax reduction in strategic areas, giving Manitobans the confidence to invest in the future of our province and in their own future. Our focus over the last 10 years has been to wrestle down the debt, to reduce spending, to get our fiscal house in order, and it has been no small feat.

It has required focus. It has required determination, and it has required commitment toward the greater common good. Again, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I must divert for a second. I have to refer to a comment from the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), and perhaps it is a good time for him to swallow his words, which is going to be somewhat difficult, and to eat some humble pie, because when we first introduced the balanced budget legislation, it was the member for Crescentwood who said that the bill was destined to make Manitoba the laughing stock of the financial management world. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would like you to know what the financial world really thinks about this legislation. It was at the McGill Graduate Business Conference of March 1996, when the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of our province was acknowledged for transforming and maintaining Manitoba's economy into an international success story that was well known, not just in this province, not just in this country, but indeed all around the world. As a result, Manitobans today are able to keep more of their own money in their own pockets for their own use. Imagine if none of this had been done. Imagine where we would be today.

Imagine what our debt load would be. This is not the kind of legacy that I want to leave to my children or their children, and I am sure that not anyone in this House wants to leave a legacy of debt to their children and their grandchildren. *( 15 00) But, Mr. Deputy Speaker, all Manitobans, all citizens of our province, have contributed to this success. It has been a partnership, a partnership between the provincial government, local governments and indeed all citizens of our province. In particular, I want to acknowledge not only all of these people, but indeed the people who have worked for government.

Those are the people who work for us in the various departments for the government of Manitoba, because through their efforts and through their commitment, we have been able to operate with significantly less government. We have been able to operate at less cost and we have been able to expand the services that we have been providing to all Manitobans. On a positive note, while public sector jobs have decreased and have been decreasing, our record of job creation in this province is second to none and remains very strong.

Last September the Royal Bank had this to say about the province's economy: months of steady economic growth have pushed Manitoba's unemployment rate to its lowest level in 16 years. Last

672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 19 98 year almost 17 ,000 new private sector jobs were created in Manitoba, the largest increase in 18 years. Mr. Deputy Speaker, with initiatives like Maple Leaf mills planning to build a major hog processing plant in Brandon, we will again welcome more jobs, addition of thousands of jobs into our province in very short order. If I can use an example, I would like to just look at one sector of our economy, and that is the trucking industry, and look at the 30,000 jobs that we have in the transportation and distribution industry.

It is one of the highest proportions of any province in Canada, and that speaks to the significance of our transportation industry and our distribution industry in our province and the addition that it makes to the economy and to the jobs that are created. In addition to this I want to just mention the Winnport initiative, having its dream realized by getting approval for its air route to the Asia-Pacific area. We can now anticipate that this opportunity will continue to grow for Manitoba as we gain prominence as a distribution centre in all the world.

So these are just a few examples of major initiatives that in the meantime are creating hundreds of jobs for people in this province. While this is happening, there are other people who are creating their own dreams and their own success stories around this province, people like Mr.

Ralph Fehr of Winkler, who has built a custom millwork operation that today employs over 60 people or, if I look at my own community, a Gail Davis of Roblin, who has converted an old railway station into a tea house and craft shop where she employs eight people and is an outlet for more than 40 crafters in the area to sell their wares and their creations to tourists who are coming into that area. These small businesses, taken collectively, are making a huge impact in our province.

No matter where you go today, whether it is Winkler or whether it is Neepawa or whether it is Thompson, you find that there is an atmosphere of excitement. There is an aggressiveness in the air where people are looking at opportunities and pursuing them aggressively to ensure that the growth of their families, the growth of our province continues. While this is all good news, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have to understand that this is all happening because of the direction that has been set by our Premier and this government.

It is this Premier who set a strategy in motion that will allow Manitobans to realize their potential, that will allow for economic growth that sets some priorities destined to make sure that our province moves ahead. It includes the creation of jobs; it includes jobs in special areas, value-added enterprises, technology areas, areas where we can manufacture goods for trade to the rest of the world, and we see excitement in each and every one of these areas. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, this budget addresses all of the sectors, and I want to just focus on one sector and that is the agriculture sector, one that I have come from and my family roots are in, because when I look at what the Crow rate did to Manitoba, first of all, it took some $700 million out of the prairie provinces on an annual basis, and this is money that was taken out of every small community across the Prairies. When that happened, we did not expect the federal government to simply send cash to these communities.

Instead, Manitobans in all of these communities in agriculture realized that they had to take their destiny in their own hands. They did so, and it has created an extreme excitement in rural Manitoba. That is why today we are one of the largest potato-producing provinces in Canada. That is why today we have a significant presence of companies like McCain, Nestle Simp lot, and now we are going to have a very significant presence in the Maple Leaf Foods processing plant in our province. When you consider the landscape and how it has changed over the course of the last 10 years, it is really quite amazing.

I remember when this province was pretty much an agricultural province that produced cereal grains, some special crops and some canola. Today if you look across our landscape in the agricultural areas of our province, you find livestock operations, diversified agriculture, you find bison, you find elk, you find hogs, you find cattle, and you find special pulse crops that are grown for specialty markets. In addition to that, amidst all of this you find processing plants that are adding value to the products that we grow in this province.

March 12 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 673 I will never forget the- An Honourable Member: How is Headingley? Mr. Derkach: Well, that is coming. The member opposite who is the duke of despair talks about where is Headingley. Well, I have a news release here that I will make reference to in just a little bi t to talk about Headingley and to talk about the position that this government has taken with regard to providing services to all Manitobans. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, let me talk a little bit about our commitment to Manitobans, about our commitment to children, about our commitment to the elderly, the sick, the poor, our commitment to special interest groups whether they are women, aborigi nals or those who are disadvantaged. Our budget encompasses everyone, and we are indeed providing care and assistance to all of the people of this province regardless of where they live. Point of Order Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am trying to hear the honourable minister speak and make some comments on the budget here, and the members opposite cannot appear to enjoy good music and good news as far as the province of Manitoba is concerned. I would really like you to bring them to order so that the honourable minister may continue with his remarks and put this good information on the record. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the offi cial opposition, on the same point of order. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): On the same point of order. I am surprised the member, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, would interject in this debate. I thought he would be interested in finally standing up for his constituents and stopping the lagoon on the west side of Winnipeg that will blow into his constituents' nostrils with the absolute arrogant proposal of the Min ister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach). Perhaps he should start standing up for his constituents, rather than being a trained seal of the Tory party. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member did not have a point of order. But I would ask honourable members if they could try to maintain the decorum just a little bit.

The honourable minister does have the floor at this time. * (1510 ) Point of Order Mr. McAlpine: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the honourable member across the way has imputed motive on the member for Sturgeon Creek, and he has imputed motive that I am not standing up and speaking out on behalf of my constituents of Sturgeon Creek as a result of a lagoon that is not going to happen. He does not know what he is talking about, and I would ask you to bring him to order for imputing motive in this House on the member for Sturgeon Creek not serving his constituents in Sturgeon Creek.

Bring him to order, and I ask you to do that now. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member did not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Derkach: As a result of the Leader of the Opposition launching into a reply to the point of order, it brings a very good topic to mind, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and one-[intetjection] Well, he talks about an

article in the paper, but let us talk about the real issue. Let us talk about the attitude that is taken by the NDP with regard to rural Manitoba. Here is a press release that was issued by the Leader of the Opposition that says very clearly what their attitude is with respect to rural Manitoba. He says that if they formed the government, the first thing that they would do would be to dismantle the Department of Rural Development. That is their commitment to rural Manitoba. The second thing they would do is take money out of the Highways budget, because then they would divert it to their own special interests.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, when he talks about services to rural Manitobans, when he talks about the Headingley issue, he does not know what he talks about. He does not know the issue. An Honourable Member: I know it quite well.

674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 19 98 Mr. Derkach: He says he knows it quite well. Then he misleads Manitobans purposely if he says he knows the issue, because we have a community, an urban community- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I have been allowing the interaction between members to carry on a little bit, but I would ask the honourable minister to choose his words very carefully. "To intentionally mislead" would be unparliamentary, so I would ask the honourable minister to retract that statement. Mr. Derkach: Thank you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and of course you are always right, and I will certainly do so. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition scoff s at the fact that Headingley is going to get water and sewage. He scoff s at the fact that we have the largest urban community in Manitoba that has no water and sewer, and he does not think that they should have water and sewer services. He does not understand the project. Neither do members on his side of the House, that the project is going to extend services to the existing community and not to what they have been talking about.

He talks about a sewage lagoon on the west side of the city. That is not going to happen. It was never intended to happen, but that is how they twist the facts so that Manitobans then get a slanted view on the real issues. It also shows the attitude, the attitude of disdain towards rural Manitobans by the opposition. That is not respected by anyone. It is certainly not respected by the people in Headingley, who have for years waited for the service that they so badly need. The Leader of the Opposition thinks it is funny when little children have to play in sewage in the backyard.

He thinks it is funny that mothers and little children should expect to have clean water. He scoff s at that. He thinks that is a joke. Well, the people of Headingley do not think it is a joke. The people of Headingley think it is a serious issue. They think it is a serious concern that they have nowhere to put the sewage from their homes. An Honourable Member: Honey wagons. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Speaker, oh, yes, let them have the honey wagons, says the deputy leader. That is the way that he treats anybody who does not live in that comfortable environment that he has been used to living in. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I want to address another issue with respect to the Leader since he is here, and that is his address to the throne speech. In his address, I do not know where he is coming from or where he has been, but he accuses the members on this side of the House of having inherited their wealth. Well, what a terrible statement to make by a Leader of an opposition. What credibility does he think Manitobans are going to have in his statements and in what he says to this province?

That is embarrassing, and he should apologize, not to us necessarily, apologize to Manitobans for being so shallow and for making statements that have no foundation and for the kinds of words that he chooses in this House. It is the same kind of attitude that he has with respect to the citizens who live outside of the city of Winnipeg, especially the citizens of Headingley. Now, the citizens of Headingley have every right to have the same kinds of services that any other Manitobans have.

I do not hear him criticizing us for putting in a sewage lagoon and a treatment facility and upgrading it in the community of Flin Flon-he thinks that is okay-or in any of the other northern communities, but he does not find that that is the attitude that should be taken with the community of Headingley. And why? Because it is rural community? Because he takes the same attitude that the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) does-that rural Manitoba does not matter, and it has never mattered to that opposition. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I can go further because there is a strategy that was adopted by the Capital Region Committee, and that strategy is being acted upon by a task force that has met now and is taking a direction on making sure that the Capital Region Strategy becomes a meaningful one and is, indeed, implemented in a proper and an appropriate way. So, we do not have to take any lessons from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). He is wrong with regard to Headingley. His position is wrong with regard to Headingley, as it is with regard to all of rural Manitoba. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would like to get back to addressing the Budget Address and the fact that the position that is taken with this government to health

March 12 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 675 care. I want to talk a little bit about a personal experience that I have had with our health care system. As members of this House may know, my family has been fairly frequent users of the health care system over the last year or so, because I had an ailing father who has just passed away who used the health care system extensively.

No matter whether it was here in the city of Winnipeg, the city ofBr andon, the community or the city of Yorkton, or, indeed in my own community at Russell, I would have to say that the care that was received by our family with regard to an illness in our family was second to none. Yes, there were times when we had to wait for X rays. There were times when we had to wait for a bed, but never in all of our experiences over the last number of years were we ever mistreated or were we ever put on a waiting list for an unreasonable request.

I have to congratulate those people-the doctors, the nurses, all of the staff who care for our citizens in hospitals across our province, because they, indeed, do a fine job. They are excellent in their professional approach, and there are people who appreciate what they do for them, because indeed the-I guess the bottom line is to ensure that the services that we receive will allow us to continue with healthy lives in this province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are investing another hundred million dollars into the health care system in this budget, and that is not insignificant.

I think that is appreciated by Manitobans. That will allow us to expand some of our capital facilities. It will allow us to put some badly needed equipment into place. One of the things that really encourages me is that we will have two mobile breast screening units on the road. That is important, especially to the smaller communities, the rural communities across our province who need this service, because their residents have to travel long distances to get this service.

Bringing that service closer to home is going to mean that they are able to access that service more readily, access it at lesser cost and be able to be with their families when they, indeed, have to go to these facilities and get these tests done in a shorter time. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think our health care system in our province is in good shape. If I compare it to other systems across our country, and if you look at the issues that other provinces are facing, I do not think Manitoba is at all in bad shape.

When you look at the amount of budget, the percentage of budget that is allocated to health care, we can stand proud. Over $600 million a year more is spent in the health care budget than was spent in 19 88. That means that we are indeed investing in the people of this province. * (15 20) When I look at the home care area, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have to say the increases in that area alone have really meant a difference in Manitoba. Again, many Manitobans are able to stay in their homes longer because of home care. That means that there is less pressure on our personal care home beds.

It means that members can still live with their families for a longer period of time. Tripling the home care budget has meant that the services to these people in their own homes are allowing them to live a better quality of life, to live longer in their homes and to be with their families for a longer period of time. Our House leader is asking for a moment to make an announcement, so if l may. House Business Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): On a matter of House business, and I thank my honourable colleague for allowing me a moment to do that, I would like to let honourable members know of some of the items of business we hope to achieve in the next little while. As you know under our rules, on Tuesday, the 17 th day of this month, we will complete all matters related to the Budget Debate. It is our expectation in the following days to deal with matters related to a resolution to appear on the Order Paper in a day or two respecting the Fox-Decent report.

I would seek unanimous agreement that the House not sit during those days of March 30 to April 2. That is Monday to Thursday of that particular week for the winter break that honourable members like to have in their constituencies and with their families. As part of that arrangement, it is also agreed that all matters necessary to be looked after respecting Interim Supply would happen prior to the close of business of this

676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 1998 House on the 26th of March, which is a Thursday. Those are matters that, I believe, would be agreeable to all honourable members, should that be put. So I would ask for unanimous agreement that be the order proceeding with respect to those matters in the coming days. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent that the House not sit between March 30 and April 2 and that Interim Supply be concluded by March 26? [agreed] * * * Mr. Derkach: About three weeks ago, my colleagues of government visited my community and my constituency.

We also visited the community of the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) and the community of the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). In all of our discussions with a variety of people in those areas, we found that there were no people who were upset with the kinds of issues that the NDP are bringing forward.

As a matter of fact, no matter whether it was the seniors or the youth in our high schools or whether they were people in our hospitals, and specifically a seniors drop-in centre that we visited was extremely happy about the kinds of services that government has provided and the direction that government was taking. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is very consistent with the kinds of reactions and responses we receive when I travel around this province, no matter whether it is in the northern part of our province or whether it is in the southern part of our province.

Manitobans are confident that this government is leading them in the right direction and that, indeed, the services that they are getting are far better than they have had in the past. I spoke a little bit about the health increases and what they are going to mean to us. In the whole area of education, this is an area that is near and dear to me, because as a former minister and also a teacher in the past, I do keep an interest in education, especially now that I have three young men in high school.

It gives me an added closeness to what programs are being offered in our schools and, indeed, the way that we are progressing. I would have to say that with regard to education, we have an excellent education program in our province. Indeed, our youth are being given the opportunity not only to explore new areas of education and knowledge but are being given an opportunity to become very well qualified for their further education or for the job world.

If you look at some of the highlights of the budget, they really address the issues that young people and parents have been talking about with regard to education and post-secondary education. When you look at the money that has been injected in the scholarship and bursary support, that is certainly one that we have heard about for a long time, and it is very meaningful to the young people who are pursuing post secondary education.

When you look at the amount of money that is going into the apprenticeship training programs, this is an area where we have, certainly, a fairly acute demand for professionals and for apprentices and for journeymen. Indeed, this is going to be money that is going to be well spent in allowing more apprenticeship programs in the province and, indeed, more of our young people to be able to access those kinds of training opportunities.

When you look at the money that is going into the training and employment services that link unemployed Manitobans with the job market, I think, once again, this is talking about specific jobs that are there for the taking. Once again, I have to go back to the rural community, and it is the community of Hamiota where we have a small manufacturer who manufactures cabinetry.

When we visited with him, he said he cannot find qualified people who are willing to work in that industry, and he is actually restricted from his production because of the lack of people who are willing and ready to come to work and who have the necessary skills. I think it is a program like this that is going to allow for actual training programs to be designed for those kinds of industries where there is a demand for jobs, and they are good paying jobs. They are not jobs that are minimum-wage jobs or anything of that nature. So I think, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in terms of the overall education plan that has been developed, we

March 12 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 677 certainly have a very positive approach, one that is yielding good results. I am very encouraged by the direction this province has taken, both at the elementary, the secondary and the post-secondary levels of education. We are also investing in social programs in our province, programs that are meaningful to people who need these programs for one reason or another. The Minister of Family Services (Mrs.

Mitchelson) has certainly been a leader in promoting the kinds of programs that this province needs with regard to the social areas, whether they are early childhood nutrition initiatives that are being undertaken as a result of this budget or whether they are the positive parenting programs that have to deal with such things as adolescent pregnancy to combat such things as the fetal alcohol syndrome. * (1 530) These are programs that are out there that are needed. Because of the way our society is evolving, we need to address those issues, and they are being addressed through the budget and through the minister.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think we can probably say that by investing in our citizens, by investing in the values that our people have, we are providing a stronger province to live, providing a stronger society and a more well rounded society which can take advantage of the opportunities that exist in this province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to tum my attention for one minute to my own department, the Department of Rural Development. For a number of years now we have been building on the strengths of our people.

We have been building on the fact that these rural Manitobans and Manitobans in general have strengths, the kind of motivation and the kind of will to make this province a stronger place, to make their communities stronger places, and to make their families that can participate fully in our economy. I am very happy that in my department, our budget will be increasing in the area of the REDI program. In addition to that, the budget is increasing to municipalities. Municipalities deliver services that are very important to our people. They deliver the services with regard to infrastructure, the roads, Mr.

Deputy Speaker. In the course of the 10 years that we have been in government, we have each year increased the tax-sharing contributions that have been made to municipalities. This year that increase is 4 percent. That certainly is a welcome increase by our municipalities. Indeed, that money is going to be used to invest in the infrastructure that is going to provide opportunity for industry to locate in many of our communities. One of those initiatives is the natural gas extension to the Swan River area. We have been for a number of years now trying to make that project a reality. Finally, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, there is an agreement where we are going to be able to extend that very needed service to that area, and we are looking forward to that being a service that is going to be an infrastructure service that is going to provide even more opportunities for the Swan River region.

In addition to that, the increase that is going to be received by the department of $1. 8 million in the REDI program is going to allow us to expand and to extend the economic development programs that we have been delivering in rural Manitoba to such entities as we have in the past, like the Isobord plant, the Maple Leaf plant, like so many other projects that are taking place in the rural part of our province. We will continue to work in partnership with Manitobans. We will continue not to ignore them but to listen to them very carefully to ensure that our economy continues to grow and continues to be strong.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, there are many opportunities in this province. This province is poised in a position where we have great opportunities ahead of us. We have companies that are looking at this province as we speak to invest in, to bring processing into this province, to bring different kinds of technologies into this province. All we have to do is be the catalyst that makes all of these kinds of initiatives happen. They are happening not only here in the city of Winnipeg but throughout the entire province. An Honourable Member: And all of Manitoba. Mr. Derkach: And all of Manitoba. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I had an opportunity to tra vel through the North recently. I took in the communities of Churchill,

678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 19 98 Thompson, Flin Flon, and many of the communities in northern Manitoba. I have to tell you that, I guess, there is an energy out there in our rural northern communities that is really quite different than what I have seen in the past. These people are motivated, they are ready to forge ahead and to build their communities. When I met with the mayor of Churchill, I have never seen someone as energetic and motivated as the mayor of Churchill. He looks at what the future holds for our province and for his community in a very positive way.

He looks at opportunities that might exist to the North, Northwest Territories and, indeed, to all of Manitoba. When I talked to the operator and the manager, the CEO of OmniTRAX, for example, they are looking at expansion in their area. They are looking at expansion of the port, and they are looking at opportunities that will help not only their company but will help communities in the North and all of Manitobans. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, I want to say that I am very, very encouraged by the Budget Address that was presented by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson).

I congratulate him because indeed this is showing the right leadership for our province, the right direction that this province needs to go in, and I know that Manitobans in general appreciate that finally we have our house in order, we are forging ahead, and the money that used to be wasted on interest payments is now being reinvested into programs that are needed by Manitobans. With that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will conclude my comments. Thank you. Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to rise, as well, this afternoon to respond to the contents of the budget that was delivered here last Friday. The first thing that I want to talk about is the manner in which the budget was prepared and the way that it was written up so that people in Manitoba could be confused. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, let me start off by saying that there was indeed a very modest increase in the budget, but, you know, after years of cutting back and eliminating programs and services-for the past 10 years anyway, I have been here for eight years now, they have been eliminating and cutting back on programs- this budget, I am afraid, does not come anywhere near to stabilizing programs and services, those that were gutted and dismantled for the past 10 years. Of course, this dismantling and this gutting out of programs, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, has left a lot of people, particularly the elderly and the poor, in a very, very desperate situation. This government talks about how the balanced budget will have a positive impact on everybody, all Manitobans, they say, how the surplus will start to help people from all comers of the province, and the money that they talk about, how that would improve the lives of all Manitobans from all regions of Manitoba. The improved economy that they talk about, they claim will benefit everybody in Manitoba. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, this budget has been categorized not only by us in the New Democratic Party but other people as well, particularly those who reside in rural and northern Manitoba, they have categorized this budget as being deceitful, because although it boasts about bigger numbers, the fact of the matter is that there has hardly been any increase in terms of funding for programs and services.

Now, I want to talk a little bit about how this government always says that the NDP is not prepared to accept change, that the NDP is not prepared to move forward, that they are always too interested in hanging on to the old ways. Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is not true at all. We recognize that times are changing. We recognize that we need to do things in a different way.

For example, in the area of health-as I said, I have been here almost eight years now, and all that time that I have been here I have listened to this government talk about the need to change the health care system, about how it is getting to be expensive, inefficient and not really helping those people who really need it, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We agree that the system has to be changed. We agree that it has to be more efficient. No problem. We agree that we have to get away from the treatment mode, that we have to get away from putting everybody in the hospitals, because it is too expensive that way.

We agree that there should be more prevention so that people do not end up being in a hospital and costing the

March 12 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 679 government a lot of money. We agree that the alternative should be community-based health care. We have always said that. I have listened to my colleagues say that over and over again in their speeches and in our meetings, and we have listened to people in the community telling us that, yes, there should be changes but, before you make the changes, you have to have a plan in place. * (1 540) Now, I have not seen any plan from this government. Instead, we have seen them fumbling and they are stumbling around from crisis to crisis.

It seems to me that things have been done in a helter-skelter way. So, therefore, the community has not really been prepared for the transition that the government had talked about previously. That transition, of course, is going from the hospital to the community. We had talked about and we had advised the government, I remember two or three years ago, four years ago, that before they kick everybody out of the hospital and into the community that we had better have an appropriate and adequate infrastructure in the community that would handle the people who would no longer be staying in a hospital.

We agreed with that. But what has happened, Mr. Deputy Speaker, since then there has not been any proper transition. There has not been any planning done to accommodate those who would go from the hospital into the community. Yes, we were promised personal care homes, but that has not happened, and so now we are in a crisis situation. I know the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) and the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) will tell us that we are not in any crisis, because every time a problem is identified they start blaming everybody.

They blame the federal government, they blame the doctors, they blame the administrators, and they blame us. So, theref ore, they do not accept the responsibility, and I for one believe that the responsibility lies solely on the government. We have seen this government dismantle the health care system. I know where I come from in The Pas, we were sitting around in The Pas the other day and talking about how even our hospital is hardly recognizable anymore as compared to, say, even five years ago. We have children being mixed in with adult patients in the hospital, and that is creating a lot of problems.

People are being discharged too early, and they are getting readmitted because they have not been looked after to get better. So the hospital in The Pas, for example, has practically closed down. Staff were let go. They were fired, and we have a lot of problems there today. Now, if we look at the press release that the government put out in March of 19 95, for example, that would have seen some infrastructure go into the community in order that a proper transition take place from the hospital into the community.

The minister then announced on the 16th of March, 19 95, just prior to the election-and I was saying earlier this afternoon, the minister remembers because he was the one who came after me, and I think he was happy with the fact that the government was approving a $600-million capital expenditure because he wanted me to congratulate him. And I believed him.

I shook his hand because I truly believed that that was what was going to happen, and when I got to The Pas that weekend, of course I told people that indeed the government had made an announcement that eventually we were going to see a new personal care home in The Pas, and people were satisfied. They were happy because they believed also that the government was going to do it.

I am just going to quote here from the press release: A further $306 million approved for architectural planning covers the design of hospitals in Emerson, Notre Dame, Shoal Lake, and personal care homes in Altona, Flin Flon, Notre Dame, Shoal Lake and The Pas, as well as five personal care homes in Winnipeg. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we all know, of course, that immediately after the election of April '95 that capital budget was scrapped by this government, and as a result of scrapping that capital budget, we are now paying for it. Our people, our elders, in the hospitals are now paying for it.

As a matter of fact, I am dealing right now with a constituent who had been living in a hotel room for six weeks because there was no space in the personal care homes in The Pas. We have no space on the reserve. We looked there. Then we looked in town; there was no space. So, fmally, I think the person I am talking about is finally moving into a residence somewhere in The Pas.

680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 19 98 But can you imagine this person, confined to a wheelc hair, he is diabetic, he receives dialysis three times a week, and he lives on welfare, and there was no place for him to go.

Even going to the hospital to get dialysis treatment was a problem because the handivan service that is operating in the town operated only, I believe, from eight o'clock until about 4:30, but this person's treatment starts before the handivan service commences their operation in the morning, and the dialysis treatment goes beyond 4:30 , so this patient is caught between a hard rock and a hard place because he has no money to hire a taxi. Every time you hire a taxi from that particular hotel to the hospital, it costs about five or six dollars, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

So those are the kinds of situations that this government has forced our people to be in, and, as I said, they are suffering, yet the same government wants us to believe that this good-news budget benefits everybody. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it does not benefit everybody. As we have said earlier, the budget does not benefit people from the North. This budget does not benefit aboriginal people. This budget does not benefit the elderly and the poor.

For example, in the area of aboriginal health, and I have said this before in this Chamber, before reform came along the aboriginal communities were already in a deficit position, if l can call it that. We were already behind the starting gate. Nursing stations do not have X-ray facilities. People have to be airlifted out of their communities if they have to see a doctor. Doctors come in maybe two days every two weeks, and there are all kinds of problems fac

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-16
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 16.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d3df90238a3608a0997e2f692883207910b52701

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