April 6, 2000 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLIV No. 13

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin our routine proceedings, the Chair would like to welcome to

the gallery today twenty-two Grade XII students from the Conrad Fitzgerald

They are accommodated by teachers Allan Spencer and David Hammond.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to recognize individuals who have spearheaded an organization

known as the Georgestown Neighbourhood Association. That area of St. John's,

Georgestown, is within the electoral district of St. John's East.

On Sunday, March 26, I attended a public meeting where about 100 citizens

came out to support the efforts of the Georgestown Neighbourhood Association in

ensuring that this particular part of St. John's, in its future development

and growth, is in accordance with the appropriate developmental standards with

attention being given to the restoring of the neighbourhood's tradition and

the preservation of its character. Any future development must always be mindful

of a neighbourhood and those residents who live within it. An association such

as this will always be able to ensure that governments at all levels are

sensitive to the needs of a community and its residents.

I congratulate the association as it embarks upon its structure and

constitution, and I wish to assure the association that I will be available to

work with it at its request and at any time.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Terra Nova.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, today my thoughts and feelings are so very much

with the Town of Glovertown, particularly with the family of Cliff and Lorna

Perry. As so many of them are doing right now, I am constantly reliving the

shock of Christopher Perry's tragic death last Sunday.

I remember the wonderful words Julie Sparkes spoke at the funeral yesterday.

She told how Christopher, only twenty-four years old, had been so positive and

happy about living and working in Glovertown. She told how delighted his many

friends and arranged for them to go camping and hunting with him, always

inspiring them with his positive approach to life. She said he had remained that

way throughout his short life, always helping people and brightening their lives

with his infectious laughter and sense of fun. His death is crushing his family

and his town, and we all feel this awesome sense of loss.

I am sure I speak for all members of the House when I say to his parents,

Cliff and Lorna, to his brother Darryl, to his sister Kimberly, to his

grandmothers, Violet and Lilly, to all his other relatives and to his many

friends, so many of them young, so many of them at the church on Wednesday, that

we share your sorrow, grief and loss, and we ask God to guide you through the

present shadows into the light of happier days.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Since 1998, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, through the National

Child Benefit, has been committed to the establishment of a Community Youth

Network in the Province for youth who are living in, or at risk of, poverty.

This network enhances opportunities available for youth to participate in social

and economic development by focusing on subjects such as learning, employment

and community building.

As hon. members are aware, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is

investing $2.8 million annually of National Child Benefit funding in the

Community Youth Network and youth services. Of this funding, approximately $1.8

million is dedicated to community based projects to facilitate social and

economic inclusion for our young people. This funding will be provided directly

to community coalitions with the potential to enable and enhance the youth's

opportunities.

The remaining $964,000 of the dedicated $2.8 million has been provided

annually to the Health and Community Services Regional Boards for residential

and mental health services for our young people. Funding to the Health and

Community Service Regional Boards commenced in the 1998-1999 fiscal year.

Mr. Speaker, development of the Community Youth Network concept has required

considerable up-front planning and consultation with youth and key stakeholders

to identify the areas of the Province most in need of these services, and to

ensure these communities had the capacity to develop and manage projects on a

long-term basis. A special thank you is extended to the Development Team of 24

youth and adult mentors who were recruited in the fall of 1998 to develop the

framework and supports for the community projects throughout the Province.

Today, Mr. Speaker, I have the pleasure of announcing the locations which

have been chosen as Community Youth Network sites. Eight projects will be

funded, with at least one project in each of the Health and Community Services

regions in Newfoundland and Labrador. The selected sites are as follows:

1. In the Labrador region, there will be a project with a hub in Happy

Valley-Goose Bay for administrative purposes and satellite services in Nain,

Hopedale, Sheshatshiu and Cartwright.

2. In the Grenfell region - and the regions are the six health care regions

that I am referring to - there will be hub for administration purposes in the

Labrador Straits and satellites in Port Hope Simpson and Flower's Cove. The

Labrador Straits area includes the communities from Red Bay to L'Anse au

Clair.

3. In the Western health region there will a project that will serve the Port

au Port Peninsula-Stephenville-Bay St. Georges area and the southwest coast,

building on the successful Community Education Network already active in that

region.

In Central Newfoundland, there will be two projects. The first one would be

an administrative hub in the Botwood-Peterview and a satellite in Springdale,

with outreach to be determined through community consultation. The second

project would be in the Harbour Breton area with outreach to be determined,

again, through community consultation and liaison.

In the Eastern Region there will be two projects, one with an administrative

base in Harbour Grace, serving the Trinity-Conception area, with satellite

services in the Placentia area, and a project as well in the Grand Bank district

with outreach to be determined again through community consultation.

Finally, there will a project centered in St. John's to serve youth in the

central and downtown areas of the capital city.

It is intended that these sites will be funded to initiate ground work on

potential partnerships and ways of providing programs and services based on

strategies identified by youth. All projects will be youth-driven and draw upon

the ongoing work of the Community Youth Network Development Team.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I suspect this is a re-announcement of the money that has been announced

before in the National Child Benefit. I suppose it is a start in returning to

the youth of our Province what has been taken from them. For years, programs and

social assistance, which directly affect youth living in poverty, have been

frozen. In their crusade for a zero deficit, the Liberals on the other side,

with the Tobinator' dancing merrily to their tune, have hacked away at the

poor and the poorest of the poor in the Province. A government often needs to

spend money and incur debt associated with that debt to invest for some future

good, and investing in the youth of our Province is, of course, investing for

future good.

I think we can never forget that a government that gives back part of what it

has stolen from you is not really giving you a gift.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We certainly support an initiative which is aimed at helping in the child

poverty area. I was very interested in the statement except when we came to the

last sentence which said that the funds will be used "to initiate ground

work on potential partnerships," which is a bit of bureaucratic

gobbledegook, which leads me to believe that the money is not being spent on the

programming at all, but rather to do investigations and studies.

I think poverty, particularly child poverty, could be far better addressed by

general programs that are designed by government to ensure that the wealth of

our Province and of our nation is spread more equitably. The danger in programs

like this is that the poor themselves are expected to solve the problem of

poverty,

whereas the problem is really one of society not paying particular

enough attention to ensure that we eliminate child poverty, which we decided to

do ten years ago in 1989. Since then, child poverty in this country has

increased by at least 50 per cent.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As hon. members will recall, a few weeks ago I announced that my department,

along with companies from across Newfoundland and Labrador, would be

participating in several trade initiatives. Today, I am pleased to update hon.

members on some preliminary results from these initiatives.

As we all know, companies which participate in these types of events know

that it often takes months, if not longer, to finalize deals. However, these

initiatives enable our companies to make valuable industry contacts, and to

obtain strong leads for potential deals. It also gives us an opportunity to

promote the capabilities of our companies to international audiences.

I am pleased to report that, in total, nineteen companies and organizations

attended Globe 2000, BIO 2000 and New England Food Service Promotion 2000, and

have all stated that these events were very beneficial to their operations.

Participants at Globe 2000 have told us that this event enabled them to meet

qualified international distributors, to compare their technology with that of

other companies, and to develop a number of very strong leads for future sales

in Canada and around the world.

In addition, our biotechnology sector witnessed several developments at BIO

2000. During the conference I attended a meeting which took place between Terra

Nova Biotechnology of St. John's and Omega Pharmaceuticals of New Jersey to

discuss further business arrangements between the two companies.

During BIO 2000, I also had the opportunity to meet with Mr. Carl Feldbaum,

president of the Biotechnology Industry Organization, BIO, who is very

influential in the international biotechnology sector. Mr. Feldbaum expressed an

interest in coming to Newfoundland and Labrador to see first-hand our marine

biotechnology infrastructure. Since returning from BIO 2000, I have extended a

formal invitation to him, and I expect that he will visit our Province this

summer.

Also during BIO 2000 I had the opportunity to meet with Dr. Martin Godbout,

one of the founders of Genome Canada, which is funded by the federal government.

Genome Canada will be establishing five centres located in Atlantic Canada,

Quebec, Ontario, the Prairies and British Columbia to provide laboratory

facilities for researchers from universities, government and the private sector.

During the meeting with Dr. Godbout, we discussed the concept of Genome Canada,

and his commitment to ensuring that our Province receives its fair share of the

research funding.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, the New England Food Service Promotion 2000 proved to

be very productive for our companies. In particular, Cabot Caprine Cooperative

of Bonavista, producers of grade A' goat cheese under the Lands End Farms

brand name, reported a very successful trip. Renowned chef Stefan Czapalay, who

prepared an exquisite meal during the event, was very impressed with the Lands

End Farms goat cheese and has agreed to serve it on his menu in the upcoming

season. Cabot Caprine Cooperative also anticipates having its products in the

New England market later this year.

These initiatives play an important role in building a presence in national

and international markets for our local companies. I look forward to reporting

results from these and other trade initiatives in the very near future.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I guess, it is more good news from the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology on a trade mission. While you can look at the good and bad of this, I

am going to be positive today and I am going to compliment the minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. T. OSBORNE: I see the Government House Leader is very disappointed,

but I am going to compliment the minister today. Because, minister, when we can

promote our products, our technology and our manufacturing abroad, it is always

good for this Province and this Province's economy. While I feel that in many

areas we have probably fallen behind other provinces in doing that, I have to

say -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. T. OSBORNE: I can hardly hear myself talk.

I have to say that this trade trip here has produced at least one success

already out of Bonavista. If that is the case, well then, it is a successful

trade mission. If that is the case, I cannot help but compliment the minister

and compliment the company that were involved in this trade mission, and

hopefully the other companies that have gone on this trade mission will also see

success.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank the minister for responding to my repeated request for some

reports on the results of trade missions. While there is not a lot of good news

to report, it is certainly positive that significant contacts were made and the

significant interests, particularly by the Genome Canada project, Mr. Godbout,

in this Province, this is certainly a positive thing. Obviously the significant

step by struggling Newfoundland businesses, the lands and farms is struggling to

develop a market and a clientele and that certainly is good news to see, and I

hope to hear more reports from the minister on the success in whether Genome

Canada - I don't know where their research facility is going to be located.

She didn't indicate that. We should find ways of ensuring that not only is

there significant research carried out here by them, but that we do have in

place substantial -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - rules and regulations to ensure that the ethical standards

and activities are properly carried out.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: When I stop getting those enthusiastic greetings, I am going to

become disillusioned with this House.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. NOEL: When we get a strong enough Opposition developed, maybe we will

consider doing that but at the present time I don't think that is a

likelihood.

Mr. Speaker, earlier this week I had the pleasure of welcoming a delegation

from Greenland who visited this Province to learn about our experiences with,

and approaches to, major mineral and petroleum resource developments.

The group of nine was led by Joergen Waever Johansen, Greenland's Minister

of Social Affairs and Labour. The group's primary interests are in the social,

economic and labour market aspects of mineral and petroleum projects and

associated processes engaging communities, residents and indigenous peoples.

Officials at the Department of Mines and Energy arranged a series of

presentations which were given by a cross-section of industry, government and

educational institutions. The delegates were impressed by, and appreciative of,

both our hospitality and the quality of materials presented. I would therefore

also like to acknowledge and thank participants from the Departments of Mines

and Energy, Human Resources and Employment, and Education for their

contributions to this successful event.

Mr. Speaker, seismic surveys conducted by Greenland's Geological Survey

indicate significant potential for its offshore petroleum resources. Diamonds,

gold, base metals and industrial minerals have also recently increased interest

in the Island's mineral potential.

The Greenland Home Rule Government's goal is to develop mineral and

petroleum resource activities as mainstays of the country's economy. The Home

Rule is developing strategies to address immediate and longer term opportunities

including, but not limited to, identifying and supplying specialized skills

training, fostering students' career interests, and enriching both potential

employers and employees to increase resident's participation in mineral and

petroleum project activities.

In our increasingly interconnected world, economic and political issues are

not contained solely by national boundaries. We must meet the challenges of the

future by building bridges across borders and by forging new communities based

on common interests.

Last August, I was pleased to welcome another delegation from Greenland and

Denmark, a group of legislators and officials who were visiting to obtain

information on how the Province manages the policy and regulatory aspects of

developing its mineral and offshore hydrocarbon resources.

Mr. Speaker, it is important to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador

that we build upon our relationship with Greenland and Denmark, especially in

sharing information on natural resource development. We have had tremendous

growth in this sector over the years, especially with our offshore oil projects.

We also have a mutual interest in the sustainable management of our shared

marine environment.

Cooperation benefits us all. It is only through cooperation that we can

achieve a stronger North Atlantic region and attain our shared goals.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Lewisporte.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to thank the minister for sending me a copy

of this penetrating and insightful statement. I thought the minister was going

to get to his feet and read a job description; it is so rare when we hear from

the minister in this House. I was delighted that he had an opportunity to do so

today.

We have put questions to this minister on two occasions in the last week, Mr.

Speaker, and you could not draw him out of his seat with a hand spike. So, there

you are; but, I tell you, when it comes to glad handing, when it comes to being

the official greeter, there is no trouble to get the minister out of his seat.

Having said that, there is something in here that I hope the minister took an

opportunity to talk about with the delegation when they were here, and that was

as it relates to indigenous people. Perhaps we might be able to learn something

from Greenland and Denmark, how they deal with their Aboriginal people and

indigenous people, that might be useful and beneficial for our people here in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is great to see the Intergovernmental Affairs Minister out doing the job,

meeting with other people from other countries, and learning. Having said that,

Mr. Speaker, I think the delegation from Greenland came to the best place in the

world to talk about development of natural resources and how not to do it. I

think they have learned all the ways not to do things, when they made this trip

to this Province, because if we look at the way we have developed our hydro, our

offshore oil, none of it has been developed in the benefit or to the full

potential of the people of this Province. Again, I think the people from

Greenland came to the right place to learn how not to do things.

Thank you.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question today is to the Minister of Justice. I would like to ask the

minister how many lawsuits are now pending against the Province's health care

corporations, and will he tell the House how much has been paid out by the

hospital corporations and their insurers over the past four years in court

ordered settlements and out-of-court settlements?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I do not have the particular information

concerning the health care corporations at hand and I will certainly undertake

to provide those details to the hon. member. I can advise, however, that the

Department of Justice currently have about 360 active litigation files in the

department right now. That, of course, covers a lot of various departments of

government. That is about what we have there now. I can certainly get a

breakdown in terms of what ones concern the Department of Health and Community

Services.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly would be interested, because in January I wrote the minister. He

wrote me back and, on February 2, I wrote all the health care corporations in

the Province. Out of the eight institutional boards, I have only had a response

from one. That is going into three months now, I might say to the minister. I am

certainly anxiously waiting to have it.

I am certain the Minister of Health and Community Services knows that there

are seventeen lawsuits currently outstanding against the Western Health Care

Corporation. Twelve are covered by liability insurance and the corporation is

liable for all costs on the remaining five. I want to ask the minister: Does he

know that so far this year- the three months that have gone this year alone - in

the year 2000, that the Western Health Care Corporation has paid out $120,000 to

settle lawsuits that are not covered by insurance and this does not include

legal costs; and, of course, there is $60,000 they are paying in premiums that

are not factored into those costs.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am delighted to have an opportunity to add some information with respect to

the question. It is true that the Opposition health critic did write to the

Department of Health and Community Services some time ago asking for information

about lawsuits against the Health and Community Services Boards. There was a

response given very promptly indicating that if there is a lawsuit against the

Department of Health and Community Services, or the government, then we would

have provided information about that, and so would my colleague have done so.

The fourteen boards that operate in the Province, we do not know from one day

to the next whether or not they are involved in a lawsuit because it is not a

lawsuit against the government. As I said yesterday, Mr. Speaker, it is has

nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with public policy. It is has

nothing to do with funding. If there is a lawsuit from an individual or a group

against a particular health care board or institution, it is because there has

been somebody who has been somehow dissatisfied with treatment that they

received in a system that we do not run and administer on a day-to-day basis.

Mr. Speaker, the Department of Justice would not be responsible for providing

any legal advice or anything of that nature; no more would the Department of

Health and Community Services. The boards themselves would have engaged legal

counsel to defend their case in the courts; and legal expenses, whether they be

lawsuits or otherwise, are a natural part of the budgeting process for all the

boards. School boards, health care boards, every single board that does work on

behalf of the government for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador

occasionally defends law cases. That is what they are doing in this case, Mr.

Speaker.. It is normal business.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister is responsible for those boards. He appointed those boards. They

are responsible to the Department of Health. I gather from what he said that the

360 that are now with the Department of Justice are not included the Health Care

Corporation, if I interpreted what the minister said. So there could be more.

I want to say to the minister, if the number of lawsuits that are with the

Western Health Care Corporation are typical of the ones that are here in this

Province, there are probably hundreds of lawsuits currently pending against

health care corporations in this Province that could cost the corporations and

their insurers millions of dollars.

Does the Department of Health have an estimate of the cost of lawsuits to the

Province and to the companies that provide liability coverage for the

corporations? Because, minister, it is you who appointed these boards, they are

responsible to the Department of Health, and they get their funding from the

Department of Health.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In every budgeting process, as I just indicated in answer to the last

question, boards that operate and provide services on a daily basis to the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador, like health care services, because they

contact and come in contact with hundreds of thousands of people a year, will

occasionally come across a particular person or group who might not be satisfied

with the treatment, attention or service they received and might seek recourse

through the courts. Normal business, normal practice, and in their operating

budgets every board - again, whether they be school boards, health care boards

and so on - always have some money available to them to defend any actions that

might arise during the year in the courts, if it goes that far. It is a normal

part of the budgeting process.

I guess he wants to try to play politics with it again and suggest that there

is some public policy issue we should be dealing with here as the determiners of

pubic policy and the law. I do not understand what anything that happens on a

day-to-day basis has to do with this Legislature. When the people have decided

they have a right to take an action, somebody will defend the action. It is

funded, it is paid for, it is normal business, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Maybe he should know. He said the fourteen health care boards. I can only

find twelve. I would like to know where the other two are, if the minister could

let me know, because I have only written twelve there. I would like to have the

names of the other two. I have not been able to find them in the Province.

It does have implications here. I ask the minister this question. Has the

minister made any effort to inquire into the reasons for these litigations? Does

he know if they have anything to do with the decline of health care services and

the shortages of medical personnel in the Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: No, I take my role very seriously, as a person that is

responsible for setting policy, determining the law that covers it, and trying

to secure as much funding as we can for the boards, despite the resistance of

the member opposite who wants to suggest we are wasting $100 million a year.

Maybe at some point in time he will come out and suggest whether or not he

really feels that we need more money in the system or not, because then he wants

to talk about lack of personnel and so on. Those things only happen when there

is a lack of money. We are trying to get more money. His comments have not been

helpful, they are not useful. Maybe he would like to explain to somebody why in

one breath, even today, he is asking, do I know, and is it because we do not

have staff, and in every other speech that he makes here and elsewhere he says

we are already wasting $1000 million.

Mr. Speaker, we take the policy role seriously. The administration of health

care on a day-to-day basis is not done by me, as the minister. It is done by the

health care boards with paid professional staff starting from the CEO right down

through all the medical professionals. They administer the system and

occasionally there are actions taken that end up in the court. It happens every

year. By the way, it might be interesting to note, maybe he should research

himself and find out how many lawsuits there were against the health care boards

in the seventeen years that they were the government.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: Because there were some and it was handled, it was dealt with

it. It is normal practice, Mr. Speaker, it is not a political issue. It not

something that I ask about on a day-to-day basis.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is your responsibility, and as the chief person responsible for health in

this Province it is your responsibility to these boards. We have no

accountability legislation for spending several hundreds of millions of dollars;

$600 million to $700 million turned over to boards in the Province and no

accountability legislation, and the minister is trying to wash his hands of it.

I ask the minister: Will he, as the person whose ministry appointed those

boards, appointed boards responsible for close to close to $700 million in this

Province, contact them and ask them to comply with my request of February 2 to

supply information that should be public information here and which we have a

right to know?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: A straight answer, Mr. Speaker: absolutely not. I have never

tried to tell the boards how to do their jobs. They are health care

professionals and managers. They know how to run the system. I'm sure they

will respond on a timely basis depending on how urgent they think that request

it compared to other things they are doing every day of the week on an urgent

and emergent basis. I am sure he will pursue the issue further. He can contact

them and ask why they haven't given an answer on a basis that he thinks is

timely.

Mr. Speaker, he keeps saying it is my responsibility as the minister. We have

to understand that in the last election there were two platform positions put

forward about how to administer health care in the Province. We said that we

believe in the board system. We empower them to do their job, they hire

professional staff and they do the work. They suggested to the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador that they would abolish the boards and that if he was

the Minister of Health - I have offered him the job on five or six occasions,

all he has to do is come over here and take it - if he

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. GRIMES: - was the minister he said he would fire all the boards and

then, rightfully, he would have to stand in this House and answer that question

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: - because there wouldn't be anybody else doing anything in

health care except he himself.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: We believe other people have something to offer, not just

him.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

Two-thirds of the work that was performed at Marystown in the first year of the

contract was on the books before Friede Goldman took over. In the second year of

the contract the guaranteed work was not delivered. With only nine months

remaining in the third year of the contract we hear now that there have been

layoff notices as of Friday.

A couple of days ago I asked the minister what the people of this Province

received in return for $150 million worth of assets. She responded: The people

are receiving work. The people of Marystown are not convinced of that and

clearly the record does not show it. I will ask the minister again: What are the

people of this Province receiving in return for $150 million in assets?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, in regard to the layoff notices, first of all, I

think it is very fair to say that in the whole history of the work done at

Marystown and the facility down there, over a thirty year period, that it is

very common that layoff notices, because of the way the union agreement is

written, must be put in place when the company does not have the work on its

books on a long-term continuous basis. Very often workers receive layoff notices

but are never laid off because before the time period is up the work has become

available.

In regards to receiving the amount of work down there, I think it is very

fair to say right now - and I have spent some time over this past twenty-four

hours looking into the situation - that right now at Marystown there is just as

much, if not more - my information that I am receiving and I don't have it all

in yet from across Atlantic Canada and Quebec - is that there is more work at

Marystown right now then there is either in the St. John's Shipyard, in Nova

Scotia or, possibly, in Quebec. I am not sure of Quebec yet.

There is a downturn in this industry at the moment that, in spite of the high

oil prices, this industry hasn't rebounded the way everyone thought it would.

There is a global recession in this industry and we are very fortunate that

right now there is work ongoing in our offshore and that the Sedco 714 rig is in

Marystown at the moment with more than 300 people being employed bringing the

rig up to Canadian standards.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

With a $1 investment, there should be more work there.

What was agreed to by the members of Local 20 of the Marine Workers' Union

and what was finally signed by government are not the same agreement. The assets

were to be protected. That was not written into the agreement.

I would like to ask the minister why government changed the agreement without

consulting the union, especially after the union had agreed to make the

necessary changes and concessions in their collective agreement?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, for years and years the government had made it

very clear that we wished to privatize Marystown, that we wished it become a

full-scale industry run by the private sector, as I think and I believe everyone

in this Province knows is the correct way to do it.

After going to the world market on many occasions, Friede Goldman was the

only company that expressed a strong interest and that we felt had the

capability to take over this industry and to develop it in our Province,

especially in light of the oil sector that continues to grow on a day-by-day,

week-by-week, month-by-month operation in this Province.

When we were negotiating with Friede Goldman, we weren't negotiating for

them to fail. We were negotiating for them to succeed, and this industry has

been privatized.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's

South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is very clear that government gave away $150 million in assets without

protecting them in the agreement after they told the union they would. It is

very clear that government are not enforcing the penalty on man hours.

What the workers at Marystown want is a secure industry and secure

employment. With only nine months left in the contract, how can government -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

With only nine months left in the contract, how can government guarantee that

they will have that work? Minister, the people of this Province are tired of

government playing, Who Wants to be a Millionaire? with taxpayers' money.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, since Friede Goldman took over this operation, and

as I have pointed out, there has been a worldwide recession, both in the

shipbuilding facilities around the world and the fabricating, in the oil and gas

fabricating facilities around this world. We have worked very closely with the

company. We have been successful in helping them get work. We have formed a

joint committee to sit down with the workers. The union is on this committee,

the management is on this committee, Friede Goldman International is on this

committee, and my department is represented on this committee. We are very

carefully working with them so that any opportunity - and I mean any opportunity

- we aggressively go after it, whether it is one the union is aware of, no

matter who is aware of. We work diligently with these companies, and we are

determined that we will continue to work with the companies until that yard is

fully occupied.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Education. Minister, the Report of

the Ministerial Panel on Education is a condemnation of the way government

managed the education system this past decade.

Many of the panel's recommendations call for reinstatement of programs and

resources that were slashed without consideration of the impact on education. Do

you now accept that it was a mistake to cut so many teachers from the system,

cut curriculum and teaching specialists assigned to school boards and in the

Department of Education, virtually wipe out support for professional

development, cancel public examinations and the numerous other programs that the

panel recommends you now restore?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, as usual, the member opposite is misreading the

situation. He is suggesting things happened, that didn't happen in the past. I

would suggest that the hon. member opposite read the Report of the Ministerial

Panel, look at the recommendations, and take a great deal of comfort in those

recommendations because we are going to enforce them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: In just four years, from 1996 to the present, this

government has cut $66 million in funding for primary, elementary and secondary

education, slashed the number of teachers by 15 per cent, over 800 full-time

teachers.

Section 9.8 of the report lays out a three- year implementation

schedule with two additional years for curriculum development and

implementation. Is that the

schedule you plan to follow? Does the minister think

that an additional expenditure of $3 million in 2000-2001, which is a mere

increase of seven-tenths of one per cent, is a serious response to the crisis

today in education?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, the co-chairs of the Ministerial Panel clearly

indicated that there is no crisis in our education system. Clearly there have

been issues identified with which we have to deal, and the recommendations are

there for us to deal with them.

In addition to curriculum, we have put much more back into the system in the

way of curriculum. In fact, we put on more courses with respect to spelling, if

the hon. member opposite would like to take them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, we have reinvested time and time again in

education and we will continue to do so. If you look at the $125 million we put

back in just recently, at a time when we have severe declining student

enrollments, we have kept teachers in the system who would otherwise have gone

by the wayside. We have made a concerted effort to ensure that the reduction in

the teacher workforce has not kept pace with the declining in student

enrollment. We are very committed to education. I would think the hon. member

opposite would see our commitment to implementing the recommendations in the

most recent report as an indication of that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, yesterday I was a lousy principal, today I am a

lousy speller, but I will tell you one thing: I can read, and I can read between

the lines, and I see where this government is going! I see where it is going,

Minister, and you have to be held accountable!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: Let's just go to one of the recommendations: The panel

recommends that school board directors be appointed by the Cabinet and made

subject to the direction of the Cabinet. If you do that, will there be any point

in having school boards, Minister, if they can't give directions to their

chief executive officer?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, the panel identified in their consultations, a

(inaudible) between the department and the boards. They recognize that if you

have a Department of Education that is setting education policy for this

Province, and you have boards out there that are implementing that policy, it is

important to have that liaison there, just as we have with the President of the

College of the North Atlantic. That is a Lieutenant-Governor in Council

appointment, and that is what is being recommended here with respect to the

education directors.

Mr. Speaker, they speak from both sides of their mouth. One minute they are

saying: Get rid of boards, boards are useless; they don't want boards. The

other side of their mouth is, now you want to control of boards.

We don't want control of boards. We have elected school boards. If we

wanted control of those boards we would have appointed them, but we didn't do

that. The fact of the matter is, we are going to work very closely as we have

always done with all of our boards.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Speaking of boards, my question is for the Minister of Mines and Energy and

concerns the Canada-Newfoundland Offshore Petroleum Board and a decision made by

it now subject to the approval, or not, of the Government of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

I read in the paper that the Minister of Mines and Energy is negotiating with

the operator instead of exercising his function under

section 25 of the Atlantic

Accord, which is to either approve or disapprove of the decision of the C-NOPB

or attempt to reach a consensus with the federal government on that.

What is the government doing, negotiating with the operator, when its role

under the Accord is either to approve or not approve the decision of the C-NOPB

with respect to the increase in the production at the Hibernia site.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to know now, as well, that the Leader of the New Democratic

Party is doing up-to-date research by reading the front page of The Telegram

before he comes to Question Period.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: He makes sure he is very current and fully briefed in terms

of the issues of importance to the Province. As well, Mr. Speaker, it is nice to

know now the official position of the New Democratic Party; it is always

important to have these things, as I see it, on the record in this Legislature

as the official position of the parties. Because if I understood the question,

the official position of the New Democratic Party, which is the great defender

of unionism and negotiation in this Province and in the world, is that we should

not negotiate. I have understood that the Leader of the New Democratic Party is

saying: Isn't it shameful that a minister representing the people of the

Province would dare to actually try to negotiate something with somebody?

I would expect that if - and I am sure it won't happen in my lifetime. I

won't go as far as the Progressive Conservative candidate who ran against me

and turned out to be not truthful, because he did at a rally in Grand

Falls-Windsor say: If the Tobin administration is re-elected I will have to

leave Newfoundland and Labrador. He is still in Bishop's Falls, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: In any event, we take the approach that any time we can

negotiate an arrangement it is better than taking a unilateral action. We

understand we have the authority to take unilateral action in the final say, in

the final analysis, if all else fails, and we would do that, but we would rather

negotiate the arrangement.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is interesting the minister likes to create diversions when he responds to

questions rather than respond. Can the minister tell us what is the position of

his government with respect to the decision of the C-NOPB and what is that

decision, because they have a role to play too?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I understand now that maybe he is not against

negotiations. Maybe he is changing his mind just even here in a matter of a few

minutes.

In any event, it is clear again that if he read the full

article for his

research he would understand that the actual deadline is in a few days and that

early next week the Minister of Mines and Energy will indicate, at that point in

time, whether or not the negotiations were successful and whether we have agreed

to an arrangement that we think, and are convinced, is in the best interest of

Newfoundland and Labrador, or whether the minister will actually decree what the

position will be in two or three days. Maybe he can wait to read The Telegram

on Monday or Tuesday of next week and then ask a follow-up question after that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: What is the position of the Government of Newfoundland with

respect to the increase being sought by Hibernia in terms of increasing

production, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I guess I gave him too much credit in the first

instance. He didn't read the full article, because it does indicate that the

Province is in a discussion suggesting that if the annual production rate is

going to increase beyond what is now in the present accord, that we would

entertain allowing that to happen provided the royalty regime is also changed to

give us more beneficial royalty impacts to the Province immediately. That is the

discussion that is occurring.

When he gets elected to be the premier of the Province - because he has

always said he would like to lead something, he would like to be in charge of

something; that was his line when he was going to leave the provincial

Legislature to become the mayor of St. John's -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: Because his speech was: I have never run anything, I would

like to run something, please let me be mayor. When he gets to run something,

Mr. Speaker, then maybe he can tell the world what his position is. Our position

is we will entertain a change if it is beneficial to Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health and Community Services.

On March 15, the government announced $2 million towards the Provincial

Breast Health Centre in St. Clare's Hospital and that was really a great

announcement. Coincidently, the same day Health Canada released a study that

directly linked second-hand smoke, and smoking in fact, but particularly

second-hand smoke to an increase in breast cancer. My question, specifically,

and this is very specific, is: How many fines have been levied under the tobacco

control amendments the House passed last spring, and how many licenses have been

revoked from the tobacco vendors?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: I don't know, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: I would ask the minister if he could please find out,

because as well as providing breast screening and breast cancer clinics for the

women we would also like to have early intervention and prevention in view of

the fact that so many of our young people are smoking.

I noticed that the Minister of Government Services and Lands is not here, but

this question is specifically for him or somebody else who can answer. Several

years ago legislation was passed regarding smoking in restaurants, bars, clubs

and other public places. What I would particularly like to know is how many

fines have been levied against the owners of the public places around this

tobacco legislation, against this anti-smoking legislation?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Again, Mr. Speaker, similar to the response from my good

colleague the Minister of Health and Community Services, I do not have that kind

of specific information at this time. I will have to take it under advisement

and pass it on to my colleague the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

There is time for one quick question.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question today is for the Minister of Justice. Minister, on January 21 I

wrote the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation concerning the New Year's

Eve celebrations on the St. John's waterfront and asked several questions as

to what was involved in our cost. Four days later I received a letter back from

the same department and I would just like to read it. It is signed by the

Director of Communications. At the bottom of that page it says: "A formal

reply to your request will be forthcoming from the Department of Justice in due

course." Minister, we will soon be into the third month of my request. I

just wonder what you consider to be a reasonable length of time for my questions

to be answered. How long more do we go before your department takes the time to

give me an answer?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MR. PARSONS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we are aware of the request from the hon.

member. It is currently being processed by department staff. It takes some time

to do these things. We are quite a busy department. We provide advice to all

departments of government and we defend government in all of its actions, and I

guess it is a matter of priorities. I will certainly check into it further for

the hon. member to see exactly what the status is at this time.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Speaker, I stand today to report from two committees on

which I had the honour of serving.

Mr. Speaker, the Social Services Committee has considered the matters to them

referred and approved without amendment the estimates of expenditure of the

following departments: Human Resources and Employment; Education; Health and

Community Services; Environment and Labour; and Justice.

As well, on behalf of the Select Committee appointed to draft a reply to the

Speech of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, I am pleased to present the report

of the Select Committee as follows:

To His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, the Hon. A.M. House, C.M., M.D.,

LL.D., FRCPC:

May it please Your Honour, we the Commons of Newfoundland and Labrador in

Legislative Session assembled beg to thank Your Honour for the gracious speech

which Your Honour has addressed to this House.

It is signed by me as well as by the Members for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair

and Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: When shall these reports be received?

On motion, reports received on tomorrow.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled,

"An Act To Amend The Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act."

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My petition is on behalf of the residents of the Shea Heights area again. I

have a couple of more petitions in and I just wanted to read the prayer of the

petition to the House:

We, the residents of Shea Heights, wish to petition the hon. House of

Assembly to address the need for wheelchair accessible housing units in the Shea

Heights area. We are asking the government to consider the fact that people with

disabilities in their families need to be able to utilize the support of family

and friends within the community of Shea Heights. If persons are forced to live

in units outside the community, it compromises the help and support that

families so vitally need.

Mr. Speaker, the community of Shea Heights within the City of St. John's is

a large community. There are quite a number of housing units in that area. None

of them are handicap accessible. So I am asking government again to respectfully

consider putting handicap accessible units in the Shea Heights area so that

families within the Shea Heights area who want to continue to live within their

own community to be close to family and friends, so that they can rely on the

help of family and friends, can continue to live within their own community.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion 1, otherwise known as the Budget Speech. I

understand the debate last week was adjourned by the Member for Cape St.

Francis. I understand we may not hear his melodious speech today. I am happy to

see that there is another member, which I am not allowed to name, absent from

this House, but I would call Motion 1.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased today to have the opportunity to -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible)

MR. MANNING: I have not even started yet, I say to the Government House

Leader, and he wants to reply already. I have to make sure I have the

opportunity to respond to those so-called facts. I am always concerned about the

facts from the Government House Leader, because most of them are only facts in

his mind and certainly relates some concern.

I want to try, if at all possible, today to stay on course. I got up here the

other day to make a few comments and bring forward some concern, I guess, with

the Auditor General's report and the Government House Leader decided he was

going to try to put me off course. Today I hope to have the opportunity to make

a few comments on what I believe are some serious concerns, not only in the

District of Placentia & St. Mary's but indeed throughout the Province.

I want to touch on a few things, the concerns that are out here in regards to

the health care issues, education, the massive out-migration that we are seeing

in rural Newfoundland and a growing aging population that is in many parts of

our Province. There have been a lot of concerns over the past couple of days in

regards to the ambulances. That has been forthcoming. I want to touch on a few

of these issues, and hopefully I will get the opportunity to do so over the next

little while.

To start off, from an education point of view out in the rural parts of the

Province, I was pleased to see yesterday a new report brought forward on

education in the Province. While I only had the opportunity to partake in some

small discussion on it so far, there are certainly some positive things there.

It is great to see that the government is acting on some of those concerns that

have been raised and recommendations that have been put forward. Hopefully over

the next little while we will see more of that.

At the same time, there is a lot of concern out there in rural Newfoundland,

and especially in my district. I will use the concern of a place like Fatima

Academy in St. Bride's. There are concerns there of what is going to happen in

education over the next few years because of the declining population, even

though Fatima Academy is a necessarily existent school under the act. The fact

that we have a low birth rate and other concerns out there makes us wonder

whether we are going to be able to offer the courses and the level of education

to these students that they so rightly deserve.

Over the next little while we are hoping to see some initiative brought

forward by the government on these recommendations that were brought forward

yesterday to ensure that some of these initiatives would be forthcoming that

would sustain and certainly maintain a level of education in small rural

communities like St. Bride's, that will be there for the students and into the

future.

In other schools, they are looking for funds. In schools like Laval in

Placentia, they need some necessary repairs. I have met with the minister on

this. She has had correspondence from the parents and groups and individuals in

the Placentia area, and certainly these concerns have been brought forwarded.

Infrastructure improvement is something that is needed also. Even though we have

a $125 million school construction program over the next couple of years, there

are a lot of small jobs that need to be done. In the Placentia area, the

gymnasium had to be closed down at Laval earlier this year. This certainly

created some concern for the parents out there. It is something that needs to be

looked at.

In regard to other schools, we saw a major improvement made to Dunne Academy

in St. Mary's last year, which is going over quite well with the amalgamation

of the schools from St. Vincent's and Riverhead being brought forward into St.

Mary's - the additions that are there - but there still needs to be some work

done in that area also. St. Catherine's Academy, on the Salmonier Line, is a

new school that was built a few years ago, one of the great schools in the

District of Placentia & St. Mary's. Last week I attended the drama

festival there, sponsored by the Avalon West School Board, and I will hopefully

bring some remarks on that at a later date.

Definitely, there is a need for money to be spent in education. While we

understand there is some concerns with the amount of dollars we have, we have to

try to make sure that rural Newfoundland is not left out in the cold on these

issues, and hopefully we will get some of these concerns brought forward.

In regards to health care, I guess one of the major concerns in my District

of Placentia & St. Mary's is the fact of a doctor or doctors in St. Mary's.

Hopefully, over the next little while, where there has been a lot of effort put

in by the local groups, and concerns, and the health care board, we can arrange

to have a doctor down in St. Mary's and help forwarded there.

The fact that we have health care boards in the Province that are operating

with a $40 million deficit, and through the provincial Budget we only see $17

million coming to help those deficits, it is hard for those health care boards

to compete with other jurisdictions in Canada and the United States for doctors.

I guess the government, in its wisdom, should do what they can to enhance the

board's financial situation so these boards can get out and try to find the

necessary medical services that need to be brought into the communities, not

only in my district but definitely throughout the Province.

Another part of my district that is certainly in need of medical attention,

medical services, is the Mount Carmel area. We are certainly short on ambulance

service in that area. They had a doctor up there also back awhile ago, but we

lost that doctor there due to circumstances. They also had to close up their

pharmacy there, so there are a lot of people very concerned over health care

services.

As I say earlier, especially with an aging population, one of the major

concerns with an aging population is the health care issue. Living in rural

Newfoundland, and having the opportunity to touch on some of these issues, and

certainly to bring forward concerns that people have - I met with several

councils, development associations, in the area that brought forward these

concerns.

Out-migration, as always, is a concern that is no different in my district

than it is in many districts in the Province. We have seen a massive

out-migration here over the past three or four years, upwards of 40,000 people.

While, at the same time, there are certainly bright lights on the horizon of the

economy of the Province, there are many people concerned with the fishery, and

the fact that maybe the government is not putting enough emphasis on the

fishery. In my view, the fishery has been put on the back burner with

government, and gas and oil has taken the front show. I am very concerned about

that because the fishery means so much to the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador, it means so much to the people in the communities of the District of

Placentia & St. Mary's. I think the government needs to ensure, in all its

wisdom, that the fishery is front and foremost in discussions on any budget

detail.

In regards to other things happening in the district, tourism development -

our tourism industry is growing. We are creating infrastructure and things that

need to be improved in order to attract tourists here, and more money into

marketing is a positive sign. We have to sell ourselves to the world. Our

tourism market is not only here within the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador. It is a global economy and we have to ensure that we sell Newfoundland

and Labrador to all parts of the world and hopefully attract people here.

At the same time, we have to continue to build the infrastructure and indeed

to train the people who are the front line people in the tourism industry. It is

great to see projects forthcoming, such as Super Host, Hospitality Newfoundland

and Labrador, and have different programs available for these people. We

certainly need to enhance those programs to ensure that as many people take

part

in them as possible. One thing that certainly needs to be done, and it leads

into another department and at the same time plays a major role in the tourism

development, is the road work throughout the Province.

I happened to be down in St. Mary's yesterday and there is definitely work

that needs to be carried out. People in the year 2000 should not have to drive

over pavement full of holes, and other problems in the road. I think in order to

continue to create a growing tourism industry we need to ensure that roads are

properly done.

In my district there is a major road that has not had any work done on it for

many, many years and that is the Colinet Road, we call it. We met with the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation on that road a few months ago,

and hopefully we can work together to try to create some improvement to that

road. It is not easy, I know, with the budget that the provincial government has

for the provincial roads program this year. With around $17 million it is not

easy to do a lot of these roads, but hopefully over the next little while we can

work together and come up with some plans and certainly start making an effort

in doing some work with these roads.

I guess one of the major things that people are concerned about in my

district - because of the fact that most of the people involved and employed in

the district are employed in seasonal industries - is the changes to the EI

regulations that happened a few years ago, that have created havoc in a lot of

families.

When I speak about EI regulations, or I speak about changes in that regard, I

don't talk about individuals because I believe that the impact is not only on

individuals; it is on families. There are a lot of families that have been

affected negatively by the fact of the EI changes over the past couple of years.

As an example, I had two gentleman in to see me a few weeks ago who worked the

same amount of hours, the same amount of weeks on a construction site the past

summer. One was receiving close to $200 less per month on EI than the other

person. While I explained to him that he had to go back for labour force

attachment over a period of 104 weeks, and so on and so forth, a lot of it is

complicated to the ordinary person. It creates a lot of havoc for families. A

$200 a month decrease in your EI payment while you are unemployed in the

wintertime certainly creates a lot of problems for somebody with a growing

family and small children, and other concerns and issues that they have. It is

something that needs to be addressed.

I am glad to see that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, on his

latest trip to Ottawa, had some conversation with the Minister of Human

Resources and Development Canada, Ms Stewart, and hopefully they will be

addressing some of these concerns over the next little while. While I think that

we cannot sit behind and wait for it to happen, we have to put forward

Newfoundland's case. As far as I'm concerned, Newfoundland should have a

special case for the simple reason that most of the industries in the Province

are of a seasonal nature. Whether you are working in the forestry, whether you

are working in mining, in a lot of cases year round, whether you're working in

the fishing industry, tourism industry, agriculture industry or basically any

industry that provides employment here in the Province, most of them are of a

seasonal nature and therefore we need to have an EI system that reflects that.

In rural Newfoundland people do not have an opportunity to have three or four

jobs. Usually you are involved in the fishery, or you're a carpenter, you work

in the local store, or you're involved in the tourism industry or whatever the

case may be, and you don't have the opportunity to go from job to job or have

three or four jobs. You are lucky to be able to have one. Therefore, we need an

UI system for Newfoundland that reflects the concerns that we have and certainly

reflects the situation in which we find ourselves living.

These are some of the issues that certainly the people in Placentia & St.

Mary's are concerned about from a budget point of view and something that they

expect and hope that the government will look at over the next little while.

While we understand every government is operating on tight purse strings, at the

same time it gets back to the fact that where you spend your money you spend it

wisely. Hopefully we can spend the money that needs to be spent throughout the

Province in a wise and positive way.

To get back to the health care issue for a minute, one of the number one

concerns in the Province - and not only in the Province - I think studies have

shown the number one concern in health care is the fact of having enough dollars

put in, but also the management of those dollars. Throughout the country we are

hearing a major health care debate now. It is healthy to hear that debate. At

the same time, we all have personal situations I am sure that we can relate to

in the health care.

I myself spent the past Christmas in the Health Sciences Centre. My mother

was in there and had open heart surgery on December 29 and spent about a month

in the hospital. I have to give credit to all the people, whether it is at the

Grace General Hospital or the Health Sciences Centre here in St. John's, or

the Placentia Health Centre. Certainly the doctors, the nurses, the LPNs, the

staff, you name it, everybody seems to be going out of their way to try to do

whatever they can for the patients. While nobody wants to be lying in a hospital

bed, it certainly creates a positive atmosphere when those people are out there

trying to do the best they can.

At the same time these people, in a lot of cases, are very stressed. Their

workload is very heavy. The responsibilities they have are very great. We need

to address those situations and address the concerns people have with being

overworked.

I can remember being in there during Christmas when they were having an awful

job to get people to come in to go to work, because they had worked so many

shifts prior to Christmas. During the Christmas and New Year's break - as I

said, my mother had her operation on December 29, which was right into the

middle of the holiday season - they had quite the job to get people to come in

because of the workload that they had. I think it is certainly something that

needs to be addressed, especially in the cardiac parts of the hospital. They are

short on nursing staff there in order to be able to carry out more operations.

I think we certainly need to address the concerns that have been put forward

by these people. Because without good health care, without good health, the rest

of the things do not fall in place. I think the number one concern is and should

be the health of all of us. So it is certainly something that needs to be

addressed. We call this Budget For The Health Of Our People For The Health Of

Our Economy . At the same time we have to be concerned that really it is the

number one concern. While we can say it is the number one concern, we have to be

able to put our money where our mouth is and ensure that it is the number one

concern.

I am very pleased to see the new Janeway hospital going up. I can remember

back a few years ago I, along with many other people, were very concerned about

the Janeway hospital, because it is a hospital that is for children. Again, it

is something that none of us wants to see, a child having to end up in the

hospital, but it happens so much. We require facilities such as the Janeway. I,

for one, was very concerned about the fact that the Janeway was moving from its

present location to side by side with the Health Sciences Centre. As I go back

and forth to the hospital to visit different friends or family members of mine,

I think that at the present time now it is a step in the right direction, and

that is going to be a great hospital down here now for the children of the

Province. Just the look of it alone, and I think the atmosphere, and certainly

the way the building is being constructed - it seems like there a lot of time

and effort have gone into it. I certainly applaud the people that are involved.

I think it would be, as I said, a step in the right direction. It is something

that not only the children will be comfortable and happy with, but something

that the Province will certainly continue to support. I think that we have to do

that. At the same time, there is always concerns, whether we have enough medical

staff to take care of our children, take care of our family and friends in the

health care situation.

Hopefully over the next little while we will see more emphasis put on that. I

agree 100 per cent with the provincial minister, that the federal government has

to take the health care, in my belief, a lot more seriously than what they are

at now. They have to put in more money. I understand where the federal

government may be coming from with the fact of managing the dollars, but at the

same time, anyone who thinks that we do not need more money in the health system

on the federal level is certainly dreaming and is up in the stars.

Those are a few issues to touch on. We are very concerned about the impact, I

guess, that the growing industries are having on rural Newfoundland. I certainly

am. While I am very pleased that we have an oil and gas industry in the

Province, very pleased that many people are working, at the same time we have to

remember that from the two shifts out at Hibernia, compared to when the

Trepassey fish plant was up and running, there were more people working in the

Trepassey fish plant than working on the two shifts at Hibernia. So a lot of

emphasis should be put on the fishery and rural Newfoundland, and a lot more

emphasis, I think, should be put on the survival of rural Newfoundland.

Hopefully over the next little while we will see that.

The Budget touched on several different aspects and I do not have time to go

into all of them today but these are a few that I wanted to touch on as they

reflect and relate to the district I represent. None so much as the state of

unemployment in the area and the opportunity for people to obtain work, and more

money put in to training some people for these positions. Our young people need

to be properly trained. The College of the North Atlantic in Placentia, for

example, just completed a six week training course for jobs with Marine

Atlantic. I'm very concerned over whether those jobs are going to be there for

those people or the opportunity for these jobs are going to be there. Therefore,

these are the kind of questions that need to be asked, and while sometimes you

upset some people by asking some questions and making some comments, well, all I

can say to that is: Tough. Those questions have to be asked, those comments have

to be made, because the people I represent are looking for opportunities and are

entitled to these opportunities and therefore that is why I bring those concerns

forward.

In regards to the Budget overall, even though it is a budget for the health

of our people and for the health of our economy, I am very concerned that the

government in many cases, as I look forward, is not taking it all 100 per cent

seriously. We have to be able to spend the dollars wisely. When I look around,

there are several places that the government can, if it wanted to, improve on

their spending habits, whether it is a small amount here or a large amount

somewhere else. It all adds up in the end, and therefore we have to be

responsible for the taxpayers money whatever way we can.

So, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER (Mercer): The hon. member's time is up.

MR. MANNING: Yes, thank you. Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased today to have

made a few comments on the Budget, and I am sure I will look forward to

listening to some other of my colleagues do the same.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a few minutes today to

touch on certain aspects of the Budget.

Our Budget was presented in this House on March 22. It seems like a long time

ago but in reality it isn't. There were certain sections in the Budget that

are, to me, very noteworthy and very worthy to look into. In this year's

Budget there is an amount of money voted for home care in this Province, home

care owners or whatever. The day after the Budget my colleague, the critic for

community health, made a phone call to the department only to be told that the

department had not decided how they were going to spend the money. I think that

is entirely wrong.

Since 1996, almost on a continuous basis since being elected to this House, I

have raised the issue of community care here. I have quite a number of homes in

my district and surrounding my district and from time to time I visit many of

them. To say in a budget that yes, we are going to give $1.5 million or $1.8

million or $1 million, or whatever, for the care of these people who live in

these homes, we are going to do that, then I think it is incumbent upon

government that somebody should have had their mind made up as to how we were

going to spend this money. Yet nobody in the department knows if it is an

increase for the people who own the homes, exactly what it is for; if it means

we are going to now subsidize homes which were previously not subsidized. Nobody

seems to know, and I think that is entirely wrong.

I'm not so sure about the present minister, but I heard the past minister

and the minister before her both have said, on numerous occasions in this House,

that the form of health care that these homes provide in the Province is

certainly the best bang for their buck, and I would certainly agree with that. I

have visited, as I said, many of these homes in my district. I have been in them

quite often. I see the care, the loving and the sharing. I watch what people in

the community do for these residents so that they can be looked after, what

happens when in the community there is a senior citizens' party which is

planned. I know of the care these patients are given, to be transported from the

homes to whatever particular group is hosting the party.

It is very interesting to go in there on a Sunday or a Saturday afternoon and

see the enjoyment on a lot of these peoples' faces because the people who own

these homes are loving and caring and they provide service, which I don't

think anybody else in this Province is providing.

As I said, the previous minister, and the minister before her, have both said

it is one of the cheapest forms of health care in this Province. I think it is

very incumbent upon government, when they presented the figures in this House,

to have been able to say: Yes, we are, here is what we are going to do with the

money. We are now going to subsidize homes which weren't previously

subsidized, or we are now going to spend money to improve the conditions of the

homeowners who have not had a raise since 1989.

Their expenses have gone up. The cost of insurance, the cost of food, the HST

and all of these things have been added in. Yet there is absolutely nothing

being done for these people, for the homeowners, the people who own the homes. I

am not talking about the residents who live in them. I can only talk about the

care the residents who live in them get.

government, I go back to some years previous to 1996, before I got elected to

this hon. House. I knew of a patient who lived in one of these boarding homes

and he got to know me quite well. He was a very kind and gentle man who loved

his Newfoundland music. Any day of the week you could go in to this particular

home, he had his own stereo, and all you could hear blaring out of his room was

Newfoundland music. He loved his Newfoundland music.

Yet somebody in the health care division in the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador said: We shouldn't leave this gentleman any more in this home. At the

time the home was being paid $905 per month to look after this gentleman. They

took the gentleman out of that home and they put him in Hoyles-Escasoni Complex

. I am not saying that the gentleman wouldn't receive the same level of care.

I am sure that he would. The problem was - and I inquired of a friend of mine

who issued the cheques from the Department of Health and Community Services to

the homes in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador - the expenses for this

one individual went from $905 per month to over $7,000 per month. For one

individual, our costs went over and over again and it was in excess of - this

gentleman told me because he issued the cheques - $7,000 per month.

To me it is wrong. To me somebody in the Health and Community Services in

this Province should have stepped in and said: Hey, we can provide the level of

service that this man needs at $905 per month. Yet some genius got it in their

mind that he shouldn't live there anymore, we should take him out and stick

him in Hoyles-Escasoni, and now our costs should go to $7,000 per month.

To me it is ridiculous and a total waste of money. It was money that we were

spending. We were giving the person the proper care and the proper attention -

probably he received better attention from the people who owned the home than he

was now going to receive in the environment he went into. I don't mean in the

health end of it, but I mean in the social end of it: How well this gentleman

was treated, how well he was looked after.

I often wonder today if he is still gets to play his Newfoundland music. I

often wonder today if he gets the kind of visits he got when he lived in the

home, which is not in my district but borders my district. I wonder does he

receive the same attention today as he received then. I would venture to say

that he does not receive it.

I can think of other homes in my district that I have visited on a very

timely fashion. There are times that I wish I would have more time to go in,

because some of these homes that are dealt by the Waterford Hospital, some of

them are ex-patients. For a first-time person going in they might be a bit

nervous because of some of the people who live in this home, but when you go in

you see the loving and the caring that these people are very capable of giving.

Then we see other times when we take people out of these homes and rent an

apartment and we put a big sign on the fridge for some of these poor souls, and

the sign on the fridge says: So and so, take your pills.

I know one guy they moved out of a nursing home close to my district. They

put a sign on the pills - and I won't say the fellow's name - they put his

name up: Take your pills. Well, if the guy opened the fridge door and there were

500 pills in the fridge, he took the 500 of them. There was nobody there

anymore, giving that gentleman the care and the attention that he needed. When

he received his money once a month or twice a month from the department of

social assistance, that money was spent on alcohol.

I have to wonder, are we really giving these people the best care or are we

throwing our money at the wind saying: I hope it blows back at us; and if it

blows back at us, I hope this man is looking out to himself and receiving the

care and attention that he did receive when he lived in this home.

I am going to go so far as to say, no, he wasn't. No he wasn't, because I

know the individual and I know what the individual is capable of doing. I know

when he gets his money - and I don't know where he is today - but I know when

he got his money he wasn't capable enough of saying that I should set aside

some of this money for food. Every cent of the money that he received went into

two areas, one being alcohol and the other one being cigarettes. I am going to

go so far as to say that most of that gentleman's money went into alcohol. Did

we improve the man's living conditions? Did we improve on his quality of life?

Absolutely not, we didn't do it. To me, it is totally wrong.

I have had the opportunity to visit people who live in my own district, who

live in their own homes, homes that - I know people who have dog houses which

are better equipped, more heated.

MR. HEDDERSON: Dog houses?

MR. FRENCH: Dog houses, I say to my colleague for Harbour Main-Whitbourne,

dog houses that are better insulted, better looked after than the homes that

some of these people live in.

I have been in those homes, as I am sure members on both sides of this House

have. To me, it is a shame. I was very lucky in having one particular gentleman

move out of the residence where he lived, a house that was well in excess of 100

years old, and have that gentleman taken and put in a personal care home where

today he still resides and is a very, very happy man. I received numerous phone

calls after this happened, from this man's family. They were very pleased that

we now have put him in an area where his quality of life - where he can receive

a bath.

On the day that I visited him, it was on a Saturday, and I will never forget

going into his house. His brother knocked on the door and got him up from

sleeping because he didn't sleep upstairs anymore; he slept downstairs on an

old daybed in the kitchen. I asked the gentleman what he did when he needed a

wash. He said: I use that pan of water right there. Well, the pan of water that

he used was no bigger than a bowl that you would probably put on your dining

room table with apples or fruit or something in it. How the man could give

himself a quality of life in his own personal hygiene just blows me away,

because it couldn't be done.

When we are allocating money in the Budget, I think that before we get to

that process it should already be marked out as to how we are going to spend it

and where we are going to spend it. In the case of the personal care homes in

this Province, that was not done.

As well, in the field of culture and recreation: the other day in Estimates -

as you know, I was there and you were there yourself - I asked a question of the

minister and told the minister how surprised I was that they had $1.5 million in

their budget which was not allocated and nobody in the department knew where

this money was going to be spent. The minister did tell me that he was waiting

on a report from his officials to him to say: Here is how we should spent that

$1.5 million.

I have no problem with having that $1.5 million there. I would support that,

as I did in the Estimates Committee; but again, when we are allocating these

amounts of money - and there are sport organizations in this Province of ours,

like the Newfoundland and Labrador Amateur Sports Federation, the Newfoundland

and Labrador High School Athletic Federation, the Newfoundland and Labrador

Parks and Recreation Association, and on and on. If some of this money is there

for them, then the money should be allocated. Somebody should have been able, on

the day of the Budget or the day after the Budget, to say: Yes, we have an

increase of $1.5 million for you. Someone, the next morning, should have been

able to say: Yes, here is where this particular allocation of funding is going

to go. We are going to give an increase here; we are not going to give one

there. We are going to it here; we are not going to do it there.

Yet, sport organizations in this Province have absolutely no idea of where

this money is earmarked for, or exactly how it is going to be spent. We do have

some idea, probably, of where it is earmarked for, but we don't know as to who

is going to receive this money, where it is going to go, and how much each

individual group's grant from this Province is going to increase. I believe

that is wrong. I believe it is wrong in community health, and I believe it is

wrong in culture, recreation and youth. As I said, I think these funds should

have been allocated. Somebody the next morning should have been able to pick up

a phone and say: Yes, here you are.

I am going to look forward, over the next several months, as we have

predicted increases from Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro in this Province. I

have my own theory on where this money is going to come from, because I do know

that the money is not in Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to give to this

Province. It is not there. They are going to have to get that money, and how are

they going to get that money without having rate increases or whatever? Where is

the extra - I believe it is an $80 million figure the government shows as

revenue. Where is this money going to come from?

If the organization doesn't have it, they have one means of getting it and

that is to raise electricity rates in this Province. If they are going to do

that, then at the end of the day we, as taxpayers in this Province, are the ones

who have to pay.

When we said there was no tax increase, 500 different brands of alcoholic

beverages at the Newfoundland and Labrador Liquor Commission were increased. Now

you may not call it a tax increase, but it was an increase to the consumer in

this Province. If it was an increase to the consumer in this Province, on top of

that increase you have to add on your taxes. So, was it a tax increase or was it

not? I am going to say that yes, it was, even though somebody in this hon. House

said, no, it wasn't. I believe personally that it was a tax increase.

As I asked questions today, and I still have a couple of more to ask along

the same lines - the questions that I asked today were involving finances that

were spent on New Year's Eve on the St. John's waterfront. Almost three

months to have to wait to receive a reply as to how we are spending the

taxpayers' money in this Province, to me, is nothing short of criminal; when

we had somebody in the department who budgeted several hundred thousands dollars

to carry out our New Year's Eve celebration, only to find at the end of the

day that went up four or five times over and above budget. Why was that? Who in

the department is responsible for that? What did we spend the money on that

necessitated going from $200,000-some odd to almost $1 million? Who organized

it? Who was in charge? Who was paying the bills? What bills? Who were they for?

By and large, who was in charge of this, to having an over-expenditure of 400 or

500 times more than they estimated they were going to spend on our New Year's

Eve celebrations.

Someone in this Liberal government should answer for that. Someone should

answer as to why these expenses got so out of hand and why they were allowed to

increase by so much.

The questions are not difficult, Mr. Speaker. I asked the nature of the

expenditure, the amount of the expenditure, the date the payment was made. I

asked for the person, firms or organizations who received these payments, and I

also wanted to know the procedure by which the goods or services were selected.

Did we go to public tender or did we just throw it up in the air and where it

dropped and whomever's name was on the piece of paper that turned up is the

individual we chose? If it was, there is something wrong. When an expenditure

goes from $200,000 to almost $1 million, it says to me that there was nobody in

charge; there was nobody steering the ship. It was a ship that was adrift, and

somebody should have taken responsibility for these expenditures.

I didn't only want to know what happened on the St. John's waterfront; I

wanted to know how much money was spent throughout the Province of Newfoundland

and Labrador. That was also part of the question. How much did the whole New

Year's Eve thing cost us on New Year's Eve? How much did it cost the

taxpayers of this Province. I do know there was some money that was allocated

for areas of the Province that was supposed to be, I think, something involving

the fishery, and there was $200,000 or $300,000 of that money used on New Year's

Eve to offset expenses for celebrations on the St. John's waterfront.

Mr. Speaker, as well - I don't have much time left but I cannot let go

without firing a shot at the CBC, our national television station, who, on New

Year's Eve, for the job they did on the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador,

for the treatment that we, as the easternmost Province in this part of Canada

and the Province who were going to be the first in North America to celebrate

New Year's Eve, the treatment that CBC gave our Province was absolutely

ridiculous and nothing short of criminal.

I was very happy to hear the minister say in Estimates that after those

particular celebrations, he did write our national television station, CBC, and

he did register a very formal complaint on the conduct that CBC showed to the

Province of Newfoundland on that very night, because it was ridiculous.

They were all over the globe; they were all over the map. The NTV station was

certainly much better in covering our celebrations, much better in covering the

celebrations than our national television station was. I understand that may

have been because somebody wanted exclusivity and they could not get it and they

could not receive it.

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to add those few words. As well, I am glad to see that

we have another report on education in the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador. I heard Dr. Len Williams this morning on local media saying that the

recommendations in this report are by and large the same recommendations that he

made several years ago. Why didn't we enact those regulations in the first

place? Why did we have to go back and have these same recommendations presented

again? To me, it is wrong. It is criminally wrong. How much money have we wasted

by not enacting this -

MR. SPEAKER (Smith): Order, please!

The hon. the member's time is up.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is a pleasure to rise and speak this afternoon. I would just like to say

that I recognized, when the Minister of Education was up, that she said there

wasn't any crisis in our education system. I would like to tell the minister

this afternoon that the definition of crisis is different for her than it is for

me because I see, in my district, a big crisis. When you see a school where

disabled children, special needs children, are having to be taught and kept in a

room six feet by eight feet with no windows, I think that is a crisis today

because of dollars not available by the school board to do expansions to the

school, badly needed, particularly in the Brian Peckford Elementary in Triton.

When I visited that school and saw what these special needs children had to go

through every day, it was ridiculous. To recognize that there is not a crisis in

our buildings is just a dream on behalf of the minister, the department and the

school board. I am not necessarily talking about the programming but about the

facilities. When you see schools that need roof and water system repairs then

that is a crisis to me.

In one school in particular, Dorset Collegiate, they have to truck in water

in tankers. That to me is unbelievable. I had to see it for myself to believe

that water would have to trucked in in fire trucks and other special containers

so that the school could stay open, all because the money is not available in

that district to attend to some of the needs of the schools there. When you are

talking about children going into a facility where water is not readily

available like it is in other facilities and in other areas, I think that this

is a crisis also. I go to the school board and ask them about the situation and

what can be done, and every time they say: We don't have the dollars, we haven't

got the money, go to the government, go to the minister. The minister has to

give us the money to correct these problems. To see these children have to go

through that in this day and age is just unbelievable. It is not right for them

to have to go through that.

In the housing in our Province today it is unbelievable also to see some of

the things that our disabled people have to go through in trying to find

accommodations to meet their needs. I have calls almost every day, on a regular

basis, of disabled people looking for adequate housing and coming back to me and

saying: The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation spins it back again to

the government saying they don't have the dollars to provide adequate housing

for disabled people.

Even this morning I had a call from a gentleman who said he is at his wit's

end. He doesn't know what to do. All he keeps getting is the runaround by the

Housing Corporation saying: There is nothing we can do for you.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: They have a perfect member, I say to the hon. minister, a

member who is concerned, a member who really takes everything to heart when it

comes to his constituents and who is going to work hard on behalf of his

constituents.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Maybe the member had laryngitis or something and didn't

know how to speak. I'm not sure, but I wasn't here at the time.

Mr. Speaker, when people call me and say: I have to take my wife on my back

to get her down over the stairs to get her outside, it is unbelievable. I had to

see this for myself. I have seen it now several times. When you go back to the

Housing Corporation they say: We don't have the money to retrofit any of our

own units, or build new units, or do anything for disabled people.

This Budget took $12 million out of the budget for the Housing Corporation.

In this day and age we can't do that with so many needs in our housing needs

for our disabled people, and not only the disabled but our seniors too. Seniors

find it difficult getting up and down stairs and find it difficult getting

access to adequate housing, particularly in rural Newfoundland. There are areas

in my district where there are some housing units, but back in the days when

they were built they weren't built to address the problems of disabled people

and seniors.

Over the last years, I think the department and the Housing Corporation

should have been moving in a direction where so many units each year should have

been retrofitted to accommodate special needs people and disabled people so that

they could live in adequate housing and have a reasonable, good lifestyle and

live in comfortable surroundings. I have seen seniors and disabled people having

to do without a lot of the privileges we have because there is no one there to

help them. You go to a housing corporation and ask: Can you do anything for me?,

the only answer you get from them is: No, we can't, because we do not have the

money because the government will not give us the amount of money we need to do

a proper job.

That is the answer I get, particularly in my regional office. Money is the

issue with all these.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Pardon, Minister?

AN HON. MEMBER: Do you want tax breaks?

MR. HUNTER: Minister, you have control of the purse, you have the knife

to cut the pie. You know what portions of the pie have to go to what areas. It

is not for me to tell you were to get the money. You know where the money is

coming from. The government knows how to cut the pie and you have to look at -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MR. HUNTER: I know how to cut the pie, I say to the minister. Someday I

will have a chance to cut the pie in the right way. If the ministers do not know

how to do it, maybe they should not be in office, I say, Mr. Speaker. If they do

not know how to cut the pie right -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) money (inaudible) Friede Goldman owes us.

MR. HUNTER: There is lots of areas, Mr. Speaker, I would say where they

know where the money could come from. A lot of lawsuits is one area where they

can save a lot of money to put into the needs of our people in this Province.

There is a lot of other areas. Development of our resources is an area where we

can find a lot of money. If we could only find a right way of developing our

resources, not in a way that is going to be non-beneficial for us for the next

one hundred years, or fifty years or twenty years.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. HUNTER: When we get in power, we will show you how to develop our

resources. We will show you how to cut the pie right so the people of our

Province could have better benefits from all aspects of our tax dollars and our

resources. I say to the hon. minister that we can give you lessons on it if you

require lessons. We would certainly be glad to meet with you and give you some

lessons on how to develop our resources, how to cut our pie right so that we can

take care of the people of our Province who deserve to be taken care of.

Particularly the people in need, like disabled people and seniors in our

Province.

The minister wants to make a point, Mr. Speaker. If you want to make a point,

minister, you can make a point.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Yes, make the point.

MR. TULK: Make the point?

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. TULK: Do you actually believe (inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Yes, I say to the minister, I actually believe that things

can be done a lot better if the government could only sit back and look at

itself, look in the mirror, and see the things that we are doing, and look at

some of the things they have done in the past, and look in areas where they can

make corrections and do things right.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: I believe everything I say, Mr. Speaker.

I also sympathize with the people of this Province that need services and our

social programs. It is scary to see a man have to lug his wife down over a set

of stairs to get to a car to take her to a doctor. Not only that, when he gets

his wife outside then he has to travel to Gander to see a doctor. The man is on

social services. Then social services says: Sorry, we cannot help you get to the

doctor in Gander because there is a doctor in your town that can see you. They

have gone to that doctor and that doctor said: I am sorry, there is nothing I

can do for you, you have to go to Gander to see a doctor.

This man is at his wit's end. I sympathize with him. I am certainly going

to try to help him every way I can to see that he can get adequate housing and

service from our social program to help his wife to get the proper medical

attention she needs. It is important that we recognize that problem.

We recognize that a lot of disabled people, particularly in schools, disabled

students, need to get from one level to the other. I have seen children who had

to be carried over stairs. I think in this day and age we have to make sure, not

only in the restructuring, that availability of education, of the

infrastructure, is there to protect and to give each student the privileges of

every other student so that they can travel within the school to get from level

to level in a reasonable and safe way. I have seen things done that are not

safe.

I say to the government that if we do not do things the right way and we do

not make it safe for our seniors and people who are depending on our social

program, then there are going to be a lot more lawsuits. The government is going

to end up in court a lot more often because people are starting to recognize

that their needs are important to them. It is important that government supply

the needs of the people that need this special attention. If they don't get

it, I would say that people are starting to recognize and say: I don't have to

put up with this, so I can have a lawsuit against government. If someone's

wife falls down over stairs and gets hurt because no one will help this social

services recipient then he is going to consider a lawsuit against the government

for not being there when he needs them. Not only for social services recipients,

but in other areas.

With the Urgent Repair Program, I get a lot of calls from people. One called

me yesterday. He had nine buckets put around his house to catch the water. They

approached the Housing Corporation and they said: It is not an urgent repair, it

is not emergency basis. These are seniors. How can seniors get up and repair

their own roof? They can't do it. They need help. They need that social

program there to protect them and give them that service when they need it so

that they don't have to go around all day trying to catch water falling from

their ceilings.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Speaker, the minister would like to have something to

say? Perhaps he wanted to tell me something about seals because I don't

understand a lot about seals? Is there anything you would like to tell me about

seals?

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) tell me about your position on seals.

MR. HUNTER: Would you like to tell me something on seals?

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible)?

MR. HUNTER: You know everything about seals. The hon. minister knows a

lot about seals. I have to admit, I don't know very much about seals, but I

know a little bit about marketing and a little bit about the way you develop a

product and an industry. It all depends on supply and demand. I would like to

say to the minister that it is not the facts on seals he needs to learn. He

needs to learn the facts on how to market them and needs facts to know how to

develop an industry. That is where the problem lies. It is not because there are

too many seals out there. It is not because nobody wants to kill the seals. It

is because nobody knows how to develop an industry and secure a proper market

for them so that the industry could develop and use the resource that we have.

The minister doesn't want to listen to that because he doesn't understand

it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: You should be listening, minister. I said you know a lot

about seals, I agree with that. I don't know anything about seals, but I -

AN HON. MEMBER: You just proved it.

MR. HUNTER: I proved the problem, I say to the hon. minister, is that we

should attack areas that can develop an industry by supply and demand where you

develop a market and an industry based on supply and demand. That is where we

should be concentrating on.

MR. EFFORD: What else did you say?

MR. HUNTER: I will get the answer for you tomorrow if you would like to

hear what I said.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) tell you?

MR. HUNTER: You can tell me. Minister, if you want to tell me, sure I

will accept it. Tell me.

MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) tell him what he said. Here's what he said: There's

not a problem out there that there are too many seals. There's not a problem

out there that nobody knows how to kill the seals. The problem, he said, is that

there's nobody who knows how to develop an industry to take care of the seals.

AN HON. MEMBER: Also the market.

MR. TULK: Also the market.

MR. EFFORD: I am definitely going to have something to say.

MR. TULK: You're going to have a word.

Listen. Stay in an area that you know something about. I'm not sure what it

is but stay in an area that you know something about. We would like to know what

the area is so figure it out first before you stand up. I will keep talking.

MR. HUNTER: No point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. TULK: No, you asked me to make the point.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: I was just fishing, Mr .Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: That is something I do know a lot about. I say to the

minister, if you would like you can travel to my district with me and I can show

you a good many houses that I've gone to in the past year that, I tell you,

give me a great experience with housing; in addition to the hours I spend in the

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation office, trying to get things for

our regional office out there. Every time I go there they say: It spins back to

the government. The government doesn't provide us with enough money to do the

work that has to be done with the housing problem we have in rural Newfoundland

today.

Housing is a big problem, particularly when it comes to special needs people

and senior citizens.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: That is your opinion, I say to the minister, but if you want

to travel with me I will show you where I got my experience from housing by

going into kitchens and sitting down there with people and discussing the

problems they have in housing. A person says to me: I have to carry my wife down

over a stairs on my back to get her to the car, to get her to a hospital, and

then I go to Housing and they say to me: You go back to the Liberal government

who doesn't put the necessary money into our programs so that we can have

adequate housing for our people, our seniors. That is the problem with housing,

I say to the minister.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Sometimes. It depends.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: I would say to the President of Treasury Board, I don't

know if she visits houses in her district with housing problems but I know for a

fact I get a lot of calls from her district, too, about housing problems; and

problems that she, when she goes back to the people, says: There is nothing I

can do for you; we don't have the money to put into the program.

I say to the minister, if she doesn't believe what I am saying, talk to the

people in your district, your constituents.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, the statement just uttered by the Member for

Windsor-Springdale is entirely incorrect. In fact, there was over $400,000 spent

in the District of Grand Falls-Buchans last year on upgrades to Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing units. Let me set the record straight. My phone in Grand

Falls-Windsor is plagued by people from his district calling me for help, and I

am the one who can provide the answers for them and get the work done.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Speaker, I have an answer for the minister. The reason

she gets calls from my district complaining about the housing, and the Housing

Corporation, is because, when they call me and ask me to help them with their

problem, and I go to housing and they say the money is the problem, go to the

government and try to get them to put more money, then I tell the people to call

the President of Treasury Board. She has the money to put into housing, and if

she doesn't put it in there, blame it on her, not me.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HUNTER: I am the one out there fighting for these people, trying to

get these problems corrected. It is the government, it is the Minister of

Finance, that is not putting necessary money into the Housing Corporation to fix

the problems in our Province today.

I would say that if you want to look into it, I would certainly be willing

and happy to go through these problems and to these doors with you and we will

explain together what the problem is.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader, on a point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I am terribly concerned about the member's

health. He is over there, getting red in the face, and I know needs it - do you

want to take another swallow before you get up again?

MR. EFFORD: Here, look, take a seal oil capsule.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: Have a seal oil capsule. It will do you good. Are you okay now?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Okay.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the hon. minister that some time, if you like, we can go together to

people in your district and to people in my district and we will sit down

together and explain to them why they cannot get the problem corrected. I would

certainly be happy to do that.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board, on a point of

order.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to able to tell this House today

that I don't need the Member for Windsor-Springdale to deal with the

constituents in Grand Falls-Buchans. They are well represented and I won't

need you to come with me to solve anything.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Speaker, I don't have to say much more; the minister

knows what the problem is. The other side, the government, knows what the

problem is about the housing in Newfoundland and Labrador today. I am just here

to serve my constituents the best way I can, and if it means fighting with

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing on a daily basis -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HUNTER: I haven't even got my list out yet.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: Leave is denied.

The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just a few minutes, I say to grandfather Government House Leader. It is a

great experience, isn't it? It is a great experience, I say to the Government

House Leader.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words today on the Budget Debate and

in response to the Budget that was handed down in this House approximately three

weeks ago. It wasn't that long ago when I had an opportunity in response to

deal with an issue of omission, in the fact that there was absolutely no

attention given to one issue of great importance to Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians, that being the addressing of the concern in this Province with

respect to some reprieve on gasoline taxes.

It was claimed by this government, prior to the Budget, that the Budget would

allow an opportunity for government to address the concerns with respect to fuel

taxes and petroleum taxes in this Province. Unfortunately, as we saw in the

Budget, that did not happen. In fact the Budget was completely remiss and silent

on dealing with the issue of taxation reprieve on this issue.

FuelFax, which is a document put out for gasoline price monitoring, gives in

fact the comparison of the cost of a liter of gasoline and the tax consequences

pursuant to the tax regime of each province. I would just briefly like to refer

to some of the details found in the most recent edition of March 28, 2000.

In St. John, New Brunswick, we have a total cost of a liter of gas of 73.5

cents; in Halifax 75.8 cents; and, at the time of the printing, in St. John's,

83.9 cents. We now know that has been reduced by some 2 cent a liter. In fact,

there was a reduction approximately a week ago.

What is interesting is the fact that the percentage of taxes continues to be

higher in this jurisdiction than in any other jurisdiction, as we do this

comparison in Atlantic Canada.

Last week there was an opportunity when the federal Minister of Finance in

Ottawa extended an invitation to the provinces, and in particular to the Finance

Ministers and Energy Ministers of each province, and the Minister of Finance

basically said: We will consider the reducing of gasoline taxes and taxation on

petroleum products if, in fact, the provinces were willing to do the same.

Sadly, the response in this Province was that they would not entertain such

an idea. In fact the Minister of Finance, when asked directly, indicated that

the additional revenues that are received are needed to deal with the increased

costs of governance as a result of the increased price in the liter of gasoline

in this Province.

I would submit that it is a very weak argument, and it is an argument, of

course, that again has disappointed Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who were

seeking from this government, for the first time, recognition of the fact that

this issue has gone unaddressed. Basically, it is an issue that the government

has completely ignored and pays no attention to whatsoever.

This FuelFax document which was released last week - again, the date is March

28 - shows, in comparing the taxes in New Brunswick on a liter of gasoline, it

was 30.3 cents in terms of provincial taxes; in Nova Scotia 33.4 cents; but in

Newfoundland and Labrador, it was 37.4 cents; again, over 7 cents per liter

between Newfoundland and New Brunswick, and exactly 4 cents per liter between

Nova Scotia and this Province.

So the Province does have an opportunity, I say, Mr. Speaker, to in fact

limit the burden on ordinary Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, but sadly it has

refused to do so; in my view, one of the biggest omissions that we see in the

Budget that was handed down approximately three weeks ago.

In speaking on the Budget it is clear as well that, in terms of vision and

planning, there is some real difficulty that this government will face in the

not-too-distant future. I would like to give a few examples as to how this

Budget exposes this government's lack of direction and planning. These

examples include the following: That this is the last year for the HST

transitional grant from the federal government that injected $350 million into

government revenue since 1997. I remember debating in this Legislature in 1996

and in 1997 how, in just a few years, in the year 2000-2001, there would be once

and for all a termination of the revenues received from this HST transitional

assistance grant from the federal government.

Well, we are here. It is the year 2000 and this is, in fact, the last year

that this Province will receive assistance from the federal government pursuant

to the Harmonized Sales Tax transitional plan that was entered into between

Newfoundland and some of the other provinces and the federal government

approximately three years ago.

Another example, Mr. Speaker, there is just a year or two remaining on the

850 million Roads for Rail Agreement that has paid for 90 per cent or more of

road construction in the Province over the last decade; just a year or two

remaining.

My colleague who sits next to me in this House, the Member for Baie Verte, I

hear him constantly talking about the condition of roads in this district. In

fact, there is even some concern that there will be a protest, a public protest,

in the next few days by residents of his district on the Baie Verte Peninsula

who simply are saying that they have had enough. They can't simply travel and

conduct their affairs and conduct their lives on a day-to-day basis because of

the condition of the roads in that district.

Here we have - as a result of this issue being not addressed and in terms of

direction and planning for the future - just a year or two remaining on the

Roads for Rail Agreement that has paid for more than 90 per cent of road

construction in this Province for the past ten years. The question has to be

asked: What next? What happens next? Where is the direction? Where is the plan,

in particular in this area, with respect to roads maintenance