April 5, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 307 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Thursday, April 5, 1984 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS DR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure this afternoon to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assem­ bly, two persons seated in your gallery. The first is a professor, Marcel Masse, who was a member of the National Assembly of the province of Quebec from 1966 to 1973.

At various times while he served in that Assembly, he had the following port­ folios: Minister of State for the Civil Service, Minister of Inter­ governmental Affairs and, latterly. Minister of Natural Resources. With him in the gallery is his friend and mine, a constituent of mine, Michel Lagacé. I ask that they both stand and be recognized by the Assembly. head: READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. STILES: Mr. Speaker, I move that the petitions presented to the Assembly on April 4, 1984, be now read and received. [Motion carried] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 217

An Act to Amend the Ombudsman Act MR. LEE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill 217,

An Act to Amend the Ombudsman Act. This would extend the jurisdiction of the provincial Ombuds­ man to municipalities, on an optional basis, and has the support of the Alberta Urban Municipalities Association. [Leave granted; Bill 217 read a first time] Bill 225 McDougall Female and Child Abuse Centre Act MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, today I wish to introduce a Bill called the McDougall Female and Child Abuse Centre Act. This Bill highlights an optional use of the McDougall school over the Government House South that is being proposed.

The centre shall be run by a board of concerned citizens and shall provide protection, counselling, services, and residential accommodation for females and children who have suffered physical or emotional abuse. MR. MARTIN: And the Premier will be the counsellor. [Leave granted; Bill 225 read a first time] head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. STILES: Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly. 50 enthusiastic grade 10 students from the Hugh Sutherland school at Carstairs, in the Olds-Didsbury constituency.

The Hugh Sutherland school also serves students from the constituency of the hon. Member for Three Hills, and she and I are looking forward to meeting with this group immediately after question period this afternoon. They are accompanied today by their teachers Mr. Dale Weiss and Mrs. Dorothy Negropontus, and by parent Mrs. Sonya Sutmöller. They're seated in the members gallery, and I ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. MUSGROVE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you and to the other members of the Assembly a very important person from the Bow Valley constituency.

Jim Graham is the chairman of the Alberta Cattle Commission. He is doing a lot of work for the livestock industry in Alberta, and I would like him to stand and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. He is seated in the public gallery. MR. ZIP: Mr. Speaker, I have the distinct pleasure of intro­ ducing to you, and through you to the House, two important members of Local 55 from Foothills hospital, Mr. Bob Fehr and Tom Minhinnett. I believe they're seated in your gallery. DR. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, it's my pleasure this afternoon to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assem­ bly, 12 grades 4, 5, and 6 students from the Willow Park Christian School. They occupy a portion of the space in Willow Park elementary school in the constituency of Calgary Egmont. While most of the students reside in the constituency of Calgary Egmont, some of them do come from other constituencies throughout the southeast part of the city of Calgary. They are accompanied by their teacher Mrs. Diane Oliver and by parents Mrs. Elizabeth Meszaros and Mr. Fred Campbell. They are seated in the members gallery.

I ask that they stand and be recognized by the Assembly. MRS. FYFE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this time to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly 80 grade 10 students from the Georges Primeau school in the town of Mor- inville, which is located in the St. Albert constituency. These students are accompanied by their teachers Mr. Meunier and Valerie Loov, parents Mrs. Martell, Mrs. Bowles, Louise Height, and Mrs. Casavant, and bus drivers Leon Parisien and Archie Fontaine. They are in the public gallery, and I ask them to rise and be recognized by the Assembly. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Speaker, it's my pleasure this afternoon to introduce to you and to the rest of the Assembly 15 young people from the Rocky Native Friendship Centre in the con­ stituency of Rocky Mountain House. They are accompanied by bus driver Mr. Ben Simenelink, supervisor Yvonne Gen- aille, and Mary Gauthier. They are seated in the public gallery, and I ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the House. MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure I speak for all members of the Assembly when I say welcome back to our very dedicated and loyal Sergeant-at-Arms, Mr. Oscar Lacombe, after his recent illness. MR. KING: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, 10 grades 5 and

308 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1984 6 students from Alex Taylor school, located in the constituency of Edmonton Highlands. The students are accompanied this afternoon by their teacher Frances Olynyk. This is the same group of students I introduced to the House about three weeks ago. They weren't here at that time to hear the introduction. They are here this afternoon, and the guides have arranged that they are seated where I can see them. I'd like to ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Education Financing MR. MARTIN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct the first set of questions to the Minister of Education. In view of the fact that the latest CPI inflation rate is some .4.5 percent for Edmonton and that the institutional inflation rate is often higher than the CPI, what assessment has the minister made of the effect of the zero percent budget increase on local school boards? MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, it isn't possible to make any kind of empirical or objective assessment about future prospects. The only thing you can do is apply skill, experience, and your best judgment to what is nothing more than a subjective con­ sideration.

On that basis our judgment is that the funding deci­ sion of the government is not going to have a detrimental effect on the quality of education. Largely involved in that judgment is our recollection that in years gone by, financial support for education in this province exceeded the rate of inflation and exceeded the increase in the educational price index. Of course we all know that in those circumstances, quality and stamina were built into the educa­ tional system, and everybody involved and interested in edu­ cation is drawing on that at this time. MR. MARTIN: Not even the minister believes all that.

I believe the Edmonton Public School Board has announced cuts of 120 teachers' positions and 94 clerical, secretarial, custodial, and maintenance positions in its proposed operating budget. What assessment has the minister made of this situa­ tion? Specifically, what effect will this have on student/teacher ratios and the quality of education in Edmonton? MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's information is incorrect. The Edmonton Public School Board has not made any such decisions. Their administration is recommending that to the board of trustees.

It is the board of trustees that will make the final decision, after careful consideration and in their complete knowledge of their educational system. I am abso­ lutely confident that they will make decisions that will maintain a high quality of education in the Edmonton public school system. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. The largest single item in the board's operative budget is salaries and contributions on behalf of employees. In view of the fact that this item takes up most of a school board's operative budget, what does the minister recommend to boards, to economize and avoid defi­ cits? MR.

KING: I recommend that they sit down with their teachers, all of whom are interested in the quality of education, and work out with their teachers the best possible way of limiting the effect of salary costs on the delivery of education in that system. The hon. member opposite represents constituents who are unemployed, as do I. He represents constituents who are work­ ing a reduced workweek, as do I. He represents constituents who have taken a cut in salary, as do I.

I don't believe he would suggest for a moment — and certainly I could not endorse the proposition — that the educational system would be immune from the consequences of the economic circumstances that are affecting every other citizen of this province. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question to the minister. There will probably be more unemployment after he's through. My question is specific. Is the minister saying that the only thing school boards and teachers can do at this time to balance their budgets is either to cut back on teachers or to cut back on teachers' salaries? MR.

KING: I'm not suggesting that for a moment, Mr. Speaker. I have very limited imagination, but I do have a lot of confidence that teachers and administrators not only have imagination but have a greater knowledge of the circumstances of their board than I have. I believe that on the basis of co­ operation, they can deal with the challenge. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: I don't wish to interrupt the hon. leader. But just in case there are question marks in some people's minds about the answer given by the hon. minister a few moments ago, there isn't any question that it was a debating answer.

However, it was an answer given to a question which was supplementary to one asking for an assessment. We have many such questions. It would appear that when an hon. member asks for an assessment, he is just asking for opinion, and pos­ sibly debate in the course of that opinion. MR. MARTIN: We certainly don't mind a good debate, Mr. Speaker. I will ask the question specifically to the rninister. Is it the government's policy that school boards should increase prop­ erty taxes, increase the level of user fees, or cut back staff and services to meet their budgetary requirements?

For some of them, that is the only choice they have. What should they do? MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, I don't accept that those are the only choices available to any board in the province. This provincial government, representing the people of Alberta, funds edu­ cation more generously than any other provincial government in Canada. AN HON. MEMBER: Debatable. MR. KING: The hon. member asks a questions; he wants an answer. We fund education more generously than any other province in Canada. AN HON. MEMBER: Fact. MR. KING: We have a better educational program in this province than any other province of Canada. DR.

BUCK: Opinion. MR. KING: Some of that can be opinion: some of it can be related to hard data. The pupil/teacher ratio in this province is lower on average than in any other Canadian province. The

April 5, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 309 typical teacher in this province receives a salary 5.8 percent higher than the typical teacher in the next most supportive province, our sister to the east, Saskatchewan — support, I might add, which has increased since the election in that prov­ ince. [interjections] When we take into account the fact that the taxation regime in this province is the lowest of any in Canada, the typical teacher in this province . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. DR. BUCK: He's practising for next time. MR. SPEAKER: I'm not sure whether or not we've passed appropriate limits, but there must be some.

MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question to the minister. [interjections] One little fact that he failed to tell us is that we spent 17.6 percent of the provincial budget for education. This is . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. MARTIN: My question to the minister is: what is the government's policy regarding teacher/student ratios for aca­ demic classes? In other words, is there a policy regarding max­ imum acceptable class sizes? DR. BUCK: When are you going to implement Kratzmann? Tell us that. MR. KING: There is no provincial policy, for reasons I am sure the member opposite understands very well.

Is he asking me about the pupil/teacher ratio in elementary schools or junior high or high schools? I am sure he would accept that the PTR should be different in all three cases. Is he asking me about the pupil/teacher ratio in a course such as social studies, which is interactive verbally, or in Chemistry 30, which depends upon experimentation and lab work? There are all kinds of variables that have to be considered. The judgment of the province is that it would not be appropriate to try to establish any single PTR at the provincial level.

We are absolutely confident that school trustees, in co-operation with their teachers, can do that quite well. [some applause] MR. MARTIN: As the boys pound over there, the answer is that they don't have an answer. And it's getting worse, as the minister well knows. [interjections] Oh, they're getting excited, aren't they? Better keep the boys down, Pete. The question I ask the minister: I've often heard the minister talk about quality education for Albertans. Could he explain to this House how cutting professional staff will lead to quality education in this province? MR.

SPEAKER: That is clearly a debating question. MR. MARTIN: Well, we are having this . . . [inaudible] MR. SPEAKER: Yes, I know. [interjections] Without estab­ lishing a precedent, let's say that we've had a debate between two members of the House of which other members have not had notice and in which they couldn't take part because of the limitations of the question period, If the hon. Acting Leader of the Opposition has a supple­ mentary which is directly germane to the line of questioning he's been following, perhaps we could have that. Otherwise, if he has a second question, perhaps we could go to that. MR.

MARTIN: I'll be glad to ask one more supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Will the government now reassess the recom­ mendation of the Minister's Task Force on School Finance, that the government fund 85 percent of the total expenditures of all school boards in the province? MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, in establishing its budget, any board has to consider direct services to students and what we call instructional support services and overhead or administrative services. MR. SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. minister, I understood the question to be one of a reassessment by the hon. minister and not by school boards.

Perhaps we might, for a change in this exchange, stay with the question. MR. KING: My apologies, Mr. Speaker. I was assuming that since he had asked a debating supplementary one moment ago. I was entitled to a response to that. But since we abide by the rules on this side of the House, I'll come directly to the sup­ plementary. [interjections] The government doesn't treat any of the advice it receives as a closed case. We are constantly reconsidering all the rec­ ommendations of the Task Force on School Finance.

However, it is very important to remember that that recommendation has to be considered in conjunction with another recommendation by the task force, that there should be no limit on the supple­ mentary requisition. Quite frankly, I can't understand how the two recommendations can be reconciled. The government can­ not consider that it would . . . MR. SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. minister, I do think we're getting rather far from the question, which was whether the minister was now prepared to make a reassessment. He wasn't asked for the reassessment; simply whether he was prepared to make one. MR.

KING: Mr. Speaker, my point was simply that we are always prepared to reassess . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. KING: I wanted to raise some of the concerns of the government. But the answer is that on the basis of new infor­ mation or evidence, we are always prepared to reassess. MR. DIACHUK: That was a short answer, Dave. MR. MARTIN: I have to admit it's one of the minister's shorter answers. Labour Relations MR. MARTIN: I'd like to direct my second question to the Minister of Labour.

Can the minister outline what review he has undertaken of the recent termination of the collective agree­ ments for Teamsters locals 362 and 955 of the International Union of Operating Engineers by Alberta Concrete Products? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I routinely and regularly receive reports of developments in collective bargaining from the staff. Those two matters have been included in those reports.

310 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1984 MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. Has the minister had any concerns brought to his attention regarding the loss of seniority, pension, and health benefits as a consequence of the termination of these agreements? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, the collective agreements in ques­ tion are ancillary to those in the general construction industry. As such they warrant the same concern as does any difficulty in the employment relationship between employees and employers. MR. MARTIN: I'll rephrase the question.

Has the minister had any representation specifically dealing with loss of seniority, pension, and health benefits as a result of these two particular contracts? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge I've not had specific representation from that particular union. I can tell the hon. member that on Tuesday night this week, it was my pleasure to speak at a well-attended annual meeting of the Clover Bar Progressive Conservative Association. On the way out I happened to stop at the McDonald's drive-in in Fort Saskatchewan, and I met the business representative from the Teamsters local.

We shared some coffee and, during that conversation, the matter did not arise. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. Maybe they think it's hopeless to bring it up. Other than the minister's verbal assurances to this House that employers will not take advantage of Judge Day's decision, what measures are presently in place to ensure that employers will bargain in good faith with union workers? MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, may I commence my response by disassociating myself from some of the erroneous interpre­ tations that have been given in the hon. member's question, and then proceed to advise that the matter is covered by statute. It's a matter of reading the Labour Relations Act to determine the opportunities either party has in a case of failing to bargain in good faith. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question to the minister. This is now happening. Those answers aren't very good to a lot of people. Let me be specific. Will the minister now review

section 80 of the Labour Relations Act, in order to provide statutory authority for bridging or continuation clauses in collective agreements? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, that's a different question. I pre­ viously indicated in the House that the question of continuation clauses, which has been raised as a consequence of a judicial decision, is under appeal and will be heard by the court on April 18, according to my information, which I believe should be 13 days from now. MR. MARTIN: If I understand the minister right, nothing will be done. I point this question to the minister.

In view of the fact that this could be in the courts for many months, with appeals, can the minister give union workers assurance that their contracts with their employers will be negotiated in a fair and noncon- frontational manner, without bridging clauses? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, two aspects of the question deserve comment. First of all, in the private sector in this province 16 percent of employees, at maximum, are covered by collective agreements. Not all those collective agreements are such that they would be expiring at this particular time.

So we're talking about the circumstances of: while it's a significant number of employees, it's still a very small proportion in the total situation in the private sector. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, it is a government position that the majority of employees of an employer should have the oppor­ tunity to join a union and be represented by that union if they so wish and that, in that event, there is an obligation of the employer and the employees to bargain. The statute does not go so far as to require either party to come to a collective agreement, nor could it. Nor, do I believe, should it. MR.

MARTIN: Certainly without a bridging contract it won't, Mr. Speaker. I might remind the minister that 100 people have already been involved in these two contracts, and there are some 40 more contracts in the building trade. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. MARTIN: They're nervous over there. They've got the twitch again. [interjections] My question to the minister is: how many union contracts will have to be terminated before the minister brings in a Bill amending

section 80 of the Labour Relations Act? What more evidence does the minister need before he does something? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I've already indicated that the original court decision, which I previously described as being a different

interpretation from what has been the general view and understanding in the industry, occurred in the latter part of January 1984. The appeal will be heard on April 18. I have taken the position that until we have further

interpretation of the section, which the appeal court will provide, we should await events and determine whether any amendment to achieve the possi­ bility for both parties to continue the collective agreements, if that is their wish, would be necessary. It has been the general

interpretation that if both parties agree, they may continue the collective agreement. The one

interpretation has been different. Maybe it's right; maybe it's wrong. But the appeal court is the court and the decision-maker, in this instance, on which I await a determination. Juvenile Mothers MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health derives from the Vital Statistics Annual Review of the minister's department. It's with regard to the age of mothers. Statistics show 25 births to girls under the age of 15 and three to under the age of 13.

My question to the minister is: what investigations have gone on to determine who the fathers were in such cases, and were charges initiated and laid under the Criminal Code in a number of those cases? DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, I think I need further clarification from the hon. member. As I understand it, he's reviewing statistics related to births from younger females and asking what follow-up is done relative to determining the fathers of those children. Mr.

Speaker, in situations where children are under 18 years of age and in need of protection, they come under the umbrella of the Child Welfare Act, and their particular needs are addressed. However, I would have to check whether or not any

April 5, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 311 follow-up is done in regard to what he is asking. I expect there would be some reluctance to do this in many instances, par­ ticularly where the individuals may not wish any follow-up. I'll get back to the hon. member with more details on that. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question to the Attorney General relates to the answer of the hon. min­ ister of social services. The minister indicated that there may be cases where charges should not be laid.

In terms of the minister's application of the law, I was wondering whether that kind of decision can be made where there is an obvious violation of the criminal code. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I think it is important always to separate the issue of the possibility of criminal charges being laid from other social or similar issues that may be involved in the misfortunes of some of the people about whom the hon. leader is asking. In other words, the question of laying charges is always a matter of having sufficient evidence that will be able to satisfy the test required by the

section of the Criminal Code that may be contemplated for a charge. That is really the sole test that's involved. Those decisions are always ultimately made by a Crown attorney, based on police investigations. If you have a situation where, for one reason or another, the matter did not come fully to the attention of the police and no investigation occurred, then surely it's possible that some person who may indeed be guilty would never be charged. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

In the Attorney General's answer yesterday, there was indi­ cation that about two charges per month are being laid. In the statistics I quoted today, there are 140 out-of-wedlock births to juveniles 14 and under; and as I mentioned yesterday, at least 52 cases of venereal disease in 1982. Could the hon. minister indicate whether there is active pursuit of a number of these cases? Are these cases brought to the attention of the minister only through the Department of Social Services and Community Health, or are other agencies initiators of the necessary charges in these cases? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Speaker, whether or not sufficient evidence can be gathered in a specific case depends on the quality of the police surveillance, which is done in collaboration with social agencies in an attempt to know which young persons are perhaps involved in situations leading to the type of thing the hon. member speaks of. In other words, the factor of vener­ eal disease among young people could well point to a child prostitution situation. It may not, but it could.

So when the social agencies and the police, who are on the street, are able to observe enough about particular citizens, then they of course are able to follow that up, and that could well lead to an investigation which would result in a charge. But it should be clear that the mere existence of sexual intercourse or venereal disease on the part of a young person may not point to a crime or may not point to the existence of sufficient evidence to lay charges, MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Attorney General.

I make reference to a letter directed to the Solicitor General from the Concerned Citizens on Prosti­ tution and Pornography. They observe in this letter that the Edmonton police department does not even investigate cases where a female under the age of 14 gives birth. I was wondering if the Attorney General could clarify whether this has been brought to his attention or whether this type of action would be representative of government policy. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I think it's a matter of prac­ ticalities in law enforcement, primarily involving the police forces in Calgary and Edmonton.

When first looking at it, it would appear that a person under 14 cannot give birth without an offence having occurred. A female under 14 engaging in sexual intercourse is in a situation where, on the face of it, the male partner has breached the Criminal Code provisions. But it's not a certainty, in all such cases, that evidence is available. The hon. leader could appreciate that, in that case, both the young victim and the family of the young victim, whether or not they have any information, are a factor in what is brought to the attention of the police. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, my other supplementary question is to the Solicitor General and is with regard to the March 20 letter I just raised, from Mr. G.E. Witherden, on behalf of the group called Concerned Citizens on Prostitution and Pornography. In the letter they raised a number of serious concerns about the lack of enforcement respecting child pros­ titutes under the Criminal Code. I was wondering if . . . MR. SPEAKER: I hate to interrupt the hon. leader, but I am a little concerned about ministers being questioned about letters which they haven't seen. MR. R. SPEAKER: He's seen it. MR.

SPEAKER: I don't know whether the minister has that letter or not. If he has, then the question might be in order. There are certain limitations in regard to asking questions about documents in the question period. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I think that comment is well taken, and I appreciate the Attorney General's answers with regard to the matter, not having access to the letter. I want to say thank you for those comments. My question to the Solicitor Genera! is whether he has had the opportunity to review that letter that was directed to his department and whether a response will be coming fairly soon. DR.

REID: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware that I have seen that letter yet. But in answer to the concerns expressed by the hon. member, my understanding is that the city of Edmonton police do indeed try to keep a watch for what is referred to as child prostitution. It's a difficult problem, as we all know, in relation to law enforcement of prostitution in any event. With relation to observed cases where there may well be child prostitution, the custom of the city police is to pick up the child concerned and turn them over to the social services department.

That's done more on the basis that this is a societal problem, rather than one of criminality on the part of these children. DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to supplement the earlier question the hon. member asked. In thinking over the question, I think it would be wrong to assume that because an underage person — a 13- or 14-year-old girl — had a baby, our depart­ ment would have the responsibility to go out in search of the putative father. I think one has to consider the intrusion into the lives of the families, where there has been this unfortunate event of having a child out of wedlock.

I repeat that the responsibility of the department of social services would come into play if it were ascertained that the child were in need of protection. In those circumstances it would be concerned about medical attention, in the case of the concern the hon. member raised about venereal disease, and then there are of course other needs.

312 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1984 MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. Would the minister pursue the matter as to the number of charges that are laid, in terms of the unwed mothers that are brought to the attention of the department and do seek financial help and other types of protection? DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, when a youngster is brought into care or the child welfare worker is involved with a particular case, the policy is that if they believe there is any violation of the Criminal Code, the police would be contacted.

Then the responsibility would be with the police, with respect to laying charges. I'm not sure that we would even have those statistics. Olympic Symbol MR. LEE: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Rec­ reation and Parks is with respect to a matter that relates to the Alberta-owned Rocky Mountain Breweries. Is the minister aware of the fact that the Canadian Olympic committee, with the support of the Calgary Organizing Committee, is now in the process of pursuing legal action against Rocky Mountain Breweries over the use of a label which uses a symbol similar to the Olympic flame, and the name 88? Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to table a photocopy of the symbol in question. MR. TRYNCHY: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of such action, so my answer would have to be no. MR. LEE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate if the provincial appointees on the advisory committee participated in the decision-making process and/or whether any consultation took place with the minister or any ministers of this government with respect to taking legal action against Rocky Mountain Breweries? MR. TRYNCHY: Again, Mr. Speaker, my answer would have to be no.

We should remember that symbols, logos, and all the things pertaining to the Olympics are the property of the Canadian Olympic Association. As such, they do not have to ask our permission or the Calgary Olympic committee's per­ mission. That would be something the Canadian Olympic Asso­ ciation is doing on its own. MR. McPHERSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, relating to the Pilsner 88 brand produced in Red Deer. Could the Sol­ icitor General advise if any action has been taken by the Alberta Liquor Control Board to remove this particular brand from the shelves of ALCB stores? DR. REID: Mr.

Speaker, not to my knowledge. I understand that the label on that particular brand was approved some time ago by the ALCB for their handling in the province and, to my knowledge, there has been no action taken to remove it in view of this apparent legal action. MR. McPHERSON: One supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Solicitor General advise if he anticipates that any action may be forthcoming with respect to this matter? DR. REID: Mr.

Speaker, unless there is any success with the legal action, I doubt if the Alberta Liquor Control Board would take any action whatsoever in the interim, waiting for a legal action to succeed. MR. TRYNCHY: Mr. Speaker, could I supplement the answer, just to make it perfectly clear that the provincial directors on the Calgary Olympic committee do not sit on the Canadian Olympic Association, so they'd have no knowledge of what the Canadian Olympic Association is doing and wouldn't be involved in that. If I left a misunderstanding there, I want it cleared up. MR. SHRAKE: A supplementary question, Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Tourism and Small Business. In view of the fact that Rocky Mountain Breweries is a small business, and I think they've spent somewhere over $25,000 in getting their label, will the Minister of Tourism and Small Business offer any assistance to Rocky Mountain Breweries in its defence? DR. BUCK: Just drink more beer, Shrake. MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the hon. member's question, I'm having a little difficulty with it, first in the sense that I'm not aware of the action, and secondly in the sense that if it is an action between an individual company and the Canadian Olympic Association, I assume we would wait and see what occurred at that particular point. I've had no request. MR. SHRAKE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Government House Leader. Can the minister advise if he's aware if OCO is going to also sue the Ombudsman for using the Olympic flame as his symbol and, if so, will he defend him? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure the Ombudsman can speak for himself in such matters. He is, after all, a servant of the Assembly and not of the government. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this topic. MR. ZIP: A supplementary question to the Minister of Tourism and Small Business, with respect to the other Calgary com­ panies that use the name Olympic in their titles. Is the minister aware that the Olympic organization committee in Toronto is contemplating legal action for the use of this name against several companies who happen to work out of Calgary? MR. ADAIR: No, Mr.

Speaker, I'm not aware of any com­ panies that may be using that particular one. But I should re- emphasize the comments of my colleague the Minister of Rec­ reation and Parks, that any of the Olympic symbols are a copy­ right of the Canadian Olympic Association. I assume they are looking into what may be a duplication of that service. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Vegreville, and then the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs wishes to supplement an answer given with regard to a previous question period topic. Street Assistance Program MR. BATIUK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transportation and is in reference to his announce­ ment on Monday of a new five-year program for street assist­ ance for towns and villages. Could the minister advise why hamlets have been omitted from this program? MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, hamlets were never included in the previous five-year street assistance program for towns and villages. However, because they are located under the jurisdiction of municipal districts and counties and improve­ ment districts, hamlets have been included in past years in the

April 5, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 313 grants to municipal districts and counties. In fact, the program of street improvements to hamlets is still contained in the budg­ etary estimates this year. I believe there's $1.2 million for improvements to roads and streets in hamlets. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Is the amount the minister mentioned from the previous programs? There used to be a program for the hamlets. MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is correct. There used to be, and there still is. It's under the

section in the departmental budget that provides grants to municipal dis­ tricts and counties, and we're in the last year of that particular hamlet street improvement program. MR. BATIUK: A supplementary — and it will be the last one, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister advise whether the municipal districts and counties are taking advantage of that program? MR. M. MOORE: Yes they are, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I noticed the hon. minister a moment ago inadvertently said "Mr. Chairman", and that reminded me that this might well come up in the discussion of the hon. minister's estimates. The hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs, followed by the hon. Associate Minister of Public Lands and Wildlife, who also wishes to supplement some information previously asked for. Lubicon Lake Indian Band MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, on Friday during question period, a specific question relative to certain allegations contained in a document prepared out of Geneva, Switzerland, by the World Council of Churches was posed to me by the Leader of the Opposition. At that time I indicated that I would undertake to investigate and report. Subsequently — in fact today, Mr.

Speaker — it has been confirmed that the Ombudsman, an officer of this Assembly, would be undertaking an investigation into the allegations contained in that document. Accordingly it is my feeling that, the search for truth being something we all share, there should be no competition in determination of that truth, and that we will support the Ombudsman in his inves­ tigation of the allegations contained in that document. Geophysical Testing Approvals MR. SPARROW: Mr.

Speaker, on Monday the Leader of the Opposition asked numerous questions with reference to a three- day turnaround time for the geophysical well site and roadway application approvals in the Footner Lake and Peace River forests. I wish to advise the hon. member that as a result of a backlog of applications in that area, my deputy minister, along with staff, made a management decision to implement a three-day processing time to meet a demand. I was not directly involved in the matter.

I would like to stress that this three-day processing time was only in effect from January 12 to January 26, 1984, for a total of 15 days, and then returned to the regular 10-day turnaround program. Seismic programs approved during this period continued to be subject to all the numerous protective conditions which exist to ensure that the disturbance of our forests, wildlife, and environment are minimized. With regard to the hon. leader's question with reference to any meetings held with local trappers, it should be noted that no special meetings were arranged by my department.

One of the reasons for this is that all program approvals require that the oil companies must contact the registered trapper within five days prior to initiating a program. All claims of trappers are then handled by the trappers' compensation board. Mr. Speaker, the bottom line is that I believe my manage­ ment staff made an excellent decision: that is, to try to help a private sector keep moving in a peak-demand period and not sacrifice any environmental conditions. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: WRITTEN QUESTIONS 157. Mr. Martin asked the government the following question: In response to Written Question 132, the hon.

Associate Min­ ister of Public Lands and Wildlife stated: "The animals shown on the inventory do not include those animals received under the terms of service contracts with those game farms." As this was presumably a response to the second part of the written question, can it be inferred that the government does not possess a list detailing those animals listed in the census for 1982, 1983, and 1984, which were delivered to the Alberta Wildlife Park under a contract between the park and the depart­ ment of Public Lands and Wildlife for picking up orphaned animals, disposing of road kills, and transferring elk from heav­ ily to sparsely populated areas?

If this is not a proper inference, does the government then have in its possession such a list? if so, will it table that list? MR. SPARROW: We'll accept 157, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear. Perhaps the hon. minister's microphone wasn't on. Did I hear the minister say he was accepting or not accepting the question? MR. SPARROW: We will accept Question 157. 158. Mr. Notley asked the government the following question: With regard to the meeting attended by the hon.

Minister of the Environment, held in Edmonton on August 23, 1983, and concerning irrigation: (1) what other members, agents, representatives, or employ­ ees of the government attended and, in each case, in what capacity; (2) what other persons and organizations attended or were represented at the meeting; (3) what were the primary topics of conversation at the meet­ ing; and (4) at any point during the course of the meeting was the desirability and/or feasibility of cross-border transfer of water from Alberta to any non-Canadian jurisdiction dis­ cussed? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, no meeting took place. MR.

SPEAKER: Might I for a moment express just a passing observation. It's my understanding — and I'll recheck the Standing Orders — that when there's a written question, the answer also is to be written and filed, if it's going to be answered. I'm not sure that we have a situation where oral answers are given to written questions.

314 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1984 MR. MARTIN: Write it out, Fred. head: MOTIONS FOR RETURNS 135. On behalf of Mr. Notley, Mr. Martin moved that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) copies of the policy manual prepared for the direction of Alberta Crown prosecutors and titled Agents' Manual (

a) as it existed at January 1, 1976, and (

b) as it existed at March 1, 1984, and (2) copies of all amendments to the Agents' Manual which became effective after January 1, 1976. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I propose an amendment to Motion for a Return No. 135. I've circulated copies. It basically amounts to a redrafting of subclause (2) in order to aim it at documents which are available, as distinct from documents which are not. Mr. Speaker, I think it important enough, though, to say to the hon.

Member for Edmonton Norwood, who moved the motion, that item (1)(a), to which we are responding — he should know that there was no administrative manual of direc­ tives in existence as such at that time and that was distributed throughout Crown attorneys' offices and placed in the hands of the various Crown attorneys for their guidance. Therefore what is being produced, the hon. member and his colleagues will find, is a binder which was drawn together by the director of criminal justice at that time. It was probably one of a handful of copies in existence.

It was used for the director of criminal justice to give guidance, when asked by Crown attorneys, but was not generally distributed. Item (1)(

b) is no difficulty. There is a manual in existence at the present time. The item with respect to which the amend­ ment is moved simply replaces that reference "amendments to the Agents' Manual", which I have explained did not in the current sense then exist, with the reference to the policy direc­ tives that were issued from time to time. They were an attempt to keep the directions to the Crown attorneys in the field up to date during that period of time. [Motion as amended carried] 151. Mr. R. Speaker moved that an order of the Assembly do issue tor a return showing details relating to the operation of Altel Data:

(1) Total annual operating budget.

(2) Total capital investment.

(3) Total gross sales figures for each fiscal year from 1977- 78 to 1982-83 inclusive.

(4) Total number of full-time employees for each fiscal year, 1977-78 to 1982-83 inclusive. Specify employee cate­ gories: sales personnel, technical and/or administrative personnel.

(5) The salary grid for each category of full-time employees.

(6) The number and category of all part-time employees, if any, contracted by Altel Data during the fiscal years 1977- 78 to 1982-83 inclusive.

(7) Number and total amount of debts written off by Altel Data during the fiscal years 1977-78 to 1982-83 inclusive.

(8) What is the normal billing period deadline for Altel Data, and what number and total amount of debts exceeded the billing period for the fiscal years 1981-82 and 1982-83. MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to propose an amendment to Motion for a Return No. 151. A copy of that proposed amendment has been provided to the hon. Member for Little Bow. The proposed amendment primarily reflects the fact that Altel Data, a division of Alberta Government Telephones, uses the calendar year as their fiscal reporting year.

With that in mind, in questions (3), (4), (6), and (7) of the motion for a return, the word "fiscal" is deleted, and the time period "1977- 78 to 1982-83" is deleted and replaced with "1977 to 1983". Following from that, in question (8), "the fiscal years 1981- 82 and 1982-83" is deleted and replaced with "1981, 1982, and 1983". Also, where no time frame was specified in the original motion, the most current complete year is being used. Therefore questions (1), (2), and (5) will be answered with information from the 1983 year. MR.

SPEAKER: It's my understanding then that it would be the intention of the minister to provide the returns according to the motion as amended. MR. BOGLE: Yes, Mr. Speaker. [Motion as amended carried] head: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 213. Moved by Mr. R. Speaker:

Be it resolved that the Assembly urge the government to propose measures to alleviate the increasing levels of unemployment among graduates of high schools, technical institutions, col­ leges, and universities. MR. R. SPEAKER: In addressing this specific resolution, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make three comments. First of all, the reasons for the resolution: at this time in the session of the Legislature. I think this is an issue which we as members of the Legislature must discuss, not only because of the urgency and concern expressed by many students facing possible unem­ ployment through the summer.

As well, we should stress this issue so that it becomes one of top priority to this legislative session. Secondly, I believe the discussion at this point in time can assist the government in preparing its economic strategy and the paper it will be submitting to this Legislature fairly shortly — I hope prior to June or earlier if possible. Thirdly, through our discussion this afternoon, I'm sure we can make some excellent suggestions as to solutions to the problem of employment or unemployment as the case may be.

I believe the picture at the present time with regard to student employment should be registered so we are aware of the actual problem we are facing. When we look at the expected graduates in the spring of 1984, we find that there'll be 5.938 students graduating from the universities, 4,161 students from colleges, and 4,500 from technical schools, to bring the total to 14,595. We must recognize, though, that there are a number of students in earlier years of their programs — first, second, third, and so on.

We find that that number is some 70,000 full-time university, college, and technical school students in the prov­ ince of Alberta. That is an impressive number. Along with that, there are approximately 95.000 high school students between the ages of 15 and 18. We well recognize that not all of those, or the major portion of those, will be seeking employment during the summer of 1984, but a number of them will.

April 5, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 315 What seems to be the picture then with regard to job oppor­ tunities for this many students? When we look at school boards across the province, the situation is very tight. For example, the Calgary public school board hired 605 teachers in 1982 and 103 teachers in 1983. In 1984 a number of those 103 hired in 1983 will have their contracts expire. Hopefully, a majority will be rehired. As I understand it, there's only hiring in the specialized areas of physics, chemistry, and math, which makes it very difficult for many of our students to find employment in the fall.

The Edmonton Catholic school board, for example, is not hiring any at all. The Edmonton Public School Board will be hiring very few teachers in the summer of 1984, maybe around 25 at the most. They're cutting some 120 first-year and retiring teachers, and it's my understanding that that adjustment has been made. The information I get is that in terms of the Edmonton Public School Board, there is some satisfaction with the arrangement that's been made. But the story is that there is no opportunity for new graduates of our university to take employment with the Edmonton Public School Board.

That's the problem we're facing. At the Calgary Catholic school board, there's a possibility of 25 in some of the specialty areas, which limits the number of students that can have an employment opportunity. In the area of engineers, Esso Chemical in Fort Saskatch­ ewan is looking at two permanent engineers hired this year. Ten engineers who were 1983 graduates were hired on a tem­ porary six- to eight-month basis, and they're not sure what faces them in the summer of 1984. Shell, Fort Saskatchewan: no hiring.

Dow Chemical, Fort Saskatchewan: possibly looking at 10 to 20 full-time graduates in engineering, computing sci­ ence, chemistry, and accounting; that's somewhat up from last year. Sherritt Gordon: no hiring. In the area of accountants, we look at Thorne Riddell. Possibly four to five graduates will be hired. There were eight in 1983 and 18 in 1982, so the number is going down. Raskins & Sells have hired 10 graduates with Bachelor of Commerce degrees and five business administration majors from NAIT. But the story is not an exciting one, and it leaves our students facing a number of problems.

In terms of interviews on campus at the present time, we find the number of interviews is somewhat stable from 1983, although the number of employers interviewing is down some­ what. The length of time in the interviewing has been reduced by approximately 50 percent, because employers are finding it much easier to make the decision because they need fewer students in their business in the coming year. As a result of this, there are a number of faculties suffering, and graduates from those faculties will find it difficult to find jobs.

For example, three years ago such faculties as commerce, engineering, and business were in high demand. This has cer­ tainly changed. Engineers, as I've already mentioned, are cer­ tainly feeling the pinch with regard to jobs. Other faculties, such as arts and general science, have always had to work hard to find jobs, and it's even more difficult in this spring of 1984. The areas of rehabilitation medicine, occupational therapy, physical therapy, and pharmacy are starting to feel the pinch as well, but some of the students are finding jobs in those areas.

Computing science is not doing as well as it did a year ago, as they are tied much to research and development. Business is becoming very competitive. Accountants are feeling the same pressures as engineers. They cannot pick and choose their jobs as they have in earlier years. Among the hardest hit by the loss of hundreds of jobs are the engineers, accountants, and other professionals who were university grad­ uates from the classes of 1982 and '83. When they went into university, Canada's problem was one of shortages of skilled labour. As we well recognize, that is not the way it is.

For example, in January 1981, the technical service council listed 4,300 vacancies for professionals. In December 1983, that list was down to 800, which means that job opportunities were significantly reduced. We could go into employment opportunities in terms of the universities, just comparing 1981 to 1982, and we find that all categories are down. The opportunities for our young people were down significantly even in those two years. We look at '83-84 and '84-85, and it's obvious that those job oppor­ tunities have been significantly reduced.

What about the government job programs that have been announced in this Legislature? I believe those would come under three categories: PEP, STEP, and the NEED program. I certainly hope the minister will enter into the debate today and talk about those various programs and what he sees as the opportunity provided by both. The best information I have is that PEP concludes as of April 30, 1984. In terms of that program, I believe it's done a good job. It's provided a job opportunity for some 9,200 Albertans.

But what happens on April 30, 1984, when this new crop of university, high school, technical, and vocational students comes out on the job market? We not only complicate it because they are out on the market, but we also add some 9,200 Albertans to the competition for jobs in the province. As I understand, the NEED program, which is jointly funded by the federal and provincial governments, created 3.707 jobs for unemployed Albertans. I think that certainly has served a purpose, kept a number of people active in the job market, and as well kept them off unemployment insurance, welfare, or whatever the case may be.

So I don't think we can be critical: we can certainly be supportive of what the NEED program has done. But when we examine that program, we find that 67 percent of all NEED employees were between 20 and 34 years of age and most were the prime wage earners. I guess that's who should be receiving that type of income in a government subsidized and supported program. The problem lies with the fact that the program ends in June 1984. So again, here we have some 3,700 people put out on the market in competition for jobs.

If the minister knows of information other than what I have raised here, I'd certainly appreciate that kind of infor­ mation being put on the record. Between the two programs. 9,200 plus 3,700, we have over 12,000 people who need to find employment opportunities. [Mr. Purdy in the Chair] The other program that was announced in this Legislature was STEP. There are certainly going to be a number of people across the province who benefit from that program. I support the minister in making the announcement and in extending the program into the fiscal year 1984-85.

I hope that through that program a number of young people are able to gain employment opportunities for the summer at least, and at the same time many communities across this province are able to benefit from the program. The number of jobs it will create is not totally clear. But I have my doubts as to whether it's going to pick up the number from these other programs plus the new group from our universities who are coming out into the job market, those who want permanent jobs as well as those who want summer jobs.

As a government, and as members of the Legislature, I think we should look at this matter not necessarily from a partisan point of view but as a real responsibility that we must take on as legislators. Make it a priority, because these young people

316 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1984 have lots of energy, ideas, and contributions, and they want to make it. I have to say that our young people today in 1984 are a very responsible group of young people. When I stood in this Legislature back in 1968, 1969, 1970, I couldn't have made that very same statement. I remember the days when there were 600, 700, 800 lying out on the lawn outside here with nothing to do, with a lot of negative objectives in mind. But today we don't have that.

We have responsible young people who want to contribute to our communities and their own livelihoods, support themselves, and be independent, self-reliant individ­ uals. As a Legislature and as a government, I guess our job is to help support and encourage them in every way we can. The downturn in the economy is not their fault. They didn't bring it on. They have been working their way through school, grades 1 to 12. Many of them have worked their way through college, technical schools, and universities, and are coming to us and society and saying, I'm prepared to contribute.

I think there must be some way that we can first of all look at stopgap measures. Certainly STEP is good program in that direction. That's one of them. And if that program doesn't meet the needs as things arise in the spring or as we move into summer, I would encourage the minister to work on its extension. Go back to the cabinet and say, we must do something. There's a greater demand by the various employers in this province to use these programs, to participate with government. I think you could then come back and say, there are young people ready to fill the jobs.

The people of this province, the parents of this prov­ ince, would be more than thankful to the government for mak­ ing that kind of an expenditure. We are in difficult times. A few years ago, in the good years, we shouldn't have had those kinds of programs, but today we are under those kind of pressures. I urge the Minister of Manpower to take a leading role. He can be the pride of all these young people across the province, not the guy who is being criticized or blamed for lack of job opportunities but somebody in the province who can give hope and some interim security for good young people in this province.

In the future, as things better themselves, they'll be prepared to contribute. Things will better themselves. Every downturn in the econ­ omy doesn't last longer than six to seven years. Then through their own initiative, individuals doing various kinds of things — innovating, creating jobs, starting businesses — will turn this economy around, and we'll be back on track again. That's where it's going to happen. It isn't really going to start in this Legislature, but we have a responsibility when things are not going well to help out and support and do some things that individual citizens can't do on their own.

For example, many of the businessmen across this province can't hire an extra person in their stores right now, because they're having a tough time keeping their own cash flow up. But as government we have some extra money, hopefully in the heritage fund. We may have to erode the base some, but we can support and help them hire an extra person to keep things going up front in the store. This is the time for that kind of assistance to occur, and we can do it.

I urge the government and certainly the Minister of Manpower to come out with a leading plan in this area, not just piecemeal announcements, to show the people of the province that there is real leadership in this area. What are some other things we can add to the present government programs? I think the whole area of tax incentives should be provided for some of the businesses that hire young people during the summer. We should review the tax policy of the government and look at ways that say to employers: if you do this, we can provide a good tax break; we can provide some kind of a bonus.

All the cost going into collecting cor­ porate tax in this province, with no benefits, certainly isn't adding any incentive now. It's creating a lot of negative atti­ tudes towards this government. I think there is some area there that could be rehabilitated to some extent with tax incentives. Secondly, in terms of the government itself, I think we should be looking at early retirement programs. Everybody stood in their places yesterday and lauded the move of Shell Canada from Toronto to Calgary. One of their programs is an early retirement program, a good retirement package.

Why don't we do that in the Alberta government? Why don't we allow those that wish to retire — and there are a number. When I was away from the Legislature on Tuesday, I was with one of those people. I am sure there are many. He raised it with me. He said: I wouldn't mind getting out of government service at the present time, but the retirement package of this government is terrible; it doesn't allow me to move out of the government at an early age. He said, why doesn't the government look at this type of proposal? [interjections] I know the Premier has said that's not the way we do things.

All of this groaning — everybody else is saying the Premier said it's a bad thing so we won't do it. That's the policy that's out. But I think with a little common sense, it could be done in cate­ gories. It would allow for more opportunity for young people to come into the government service if necessary. Reduced work hours, work sharing, is a concept that has been tried and has helped in a number of states in the United States. One of the concerns in terms of work sharing is the lack of availability of unemployment insurance benefits.

Maybe we have to make some adjustments in those areas so that work sharing can take place — one person works one day on the job, another person another day, or half a day and half a day. That is maybe another innovation we can look at. It provides opportunity for our young people. One of the youth programs that was in place a number of years ago in this province when there was a bit of a downturn in terms of employment opportunity was the opportunities for youth program.

A number of young people were given the opportunity to work with senior citizens, with community groups that were building or working on a project, on clean­ up programs, and various things like that. I can recall visiting and working with a number of those young individuals in those years, and they were excited about the program. A number of them went into the Metis and the native communities of the north during the summer and helped with recreation programs, kindergarten programs, and community health programs — a number of things. It benefitted not only the young person but also the community.

With the positive attitude our young people have today, I think those programs could work even better now than they did, say, in the late 1960s. I think the earlier the government's economic plan is announced in this Assembly the better, so that some of the short-term goals of the plan can be implemented by the time our young people come out of the various institutions, whether university, vocational, technical, or high school buildings of this province. That economic plan should be for them. They should be the first priority in that plan, so they know the government has their concerns and their future in mind.

If we leave that plan and announce it in June of this year, it will be too late. By the time the program is implemented, put in place, it will be too late to deal with the 1984 graduates of our various institutions. I would urge the Minister of Manpower to put pressure on the Premier or whatever ministers are involved to have that announcement as early as possible, to assist him in his responsibilities. Mr. Speaker, on that basis I feel that the resolution before us is significant. I certainly urge the Assembly to support it. I

April 5, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 317 am sure everybody in this Assembly is concerned about the future of our young people, that they want to give them some hope for immediate and long-term employment. Sometimes just hope is a great factor in giving them encouragement to go out and find their own employment. But the feeling out there is that the government doesn't care and nobody else seems to care.

After you have answered eight, 10, 15, or 20 advertise­ ments with regard to jobs and you have been turned down, you get a little negative about the world and a little antagonistic about the fact that nobody really cares and that there is no hope. So they go home again and hope that they can live with their mother or dad or some relatives, to eat. I don't think that's a very good situation. We don't want that. I would urge every member in this Assembly to look at the resolution in an objective and positive way. I have tried to give compliments to the government in what I have said.

I have also urged the Minister of Manpower to take a leading role, because there are a lot of credits in a good job with regard to this responsibility before us. I urge other members, as you speak on this resolution, to take a positive approach as well. Make some suggestions as to what the Minister of Manpower can do. I would be very disappointed if many of you rise on your feet and only defend the government's position.

As a member of the opposition and a person who hears the story just a little differently, I have to say to you that the people out there — particularly parents who have phoned me in the last couple of weeks — have no confidence that the government is listening to the concern for their children who are graduating. They say, I don't hear anything that I can have some hope in. I think this will be a good day for all of us in this Legislature if even the message that comes out of this debate is that there is hope, we do care, we can do a better job than we are doing now, and we really want to do a better job.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, I take pleasure in participating in the debate on Motion 213. I would like to thank the hon. Member for Little Bow for putting the topic of youth employ­ ment on the Order Paper for debate. It will certainly give me the opportunity to outline the significant response this government has made to date to the situation of youth employ­ ment. It is even possible that if the hon.

Member for Little Bow listens carefully, he may acquire a better understanding of the situation and also of the various programs that are in place and hence can use them with the youth in his constituency. Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully for the hon. member to tell me the "how" and yet be consistent with his aspirations for a balanced budget. I didn't hear it. I heard, tap the heritage fund; I heard, extend some of the various programs we already had out there; I heard tax incentives; I heard early retirement: all cost items that would increase the deficit of this government.

I gather the hon. member is saying that if we have to increase the deficit, that would be his push. I heard some suggestions such as a reduced workweek and work sharing. I would point out for the sake of the hon. member and other members of the House that that has been tried on a number of occasions in a number of societies. It generally leads to people holding down multiple jobs. I hope the hon. member opposite was not suggesting that we legislate against a person who is ambitious enough to hold down more than one position in our work force. Mr.

Speaker, we recognize that the current level of unem­ ployment among young people — and when I say "young people", I'm talking about the 15- to 24-year-old age group — is above the provincial average, and the situation will be compounded when the graduates of the postsecondary insti­ tutions and high schools become available for employment in May and June. The provincial government is creating employ­ ment opportunities for young people directly through employ­ ment programs and indirectly by setting the stage for private- enterprise growth that will create the permanent, long-lasting job opportunities we need.

While assistance is available to all persons, the provincial government provides special attention to young people by assisting them in making career choices and acquiring job search skills. However, ultimately it is the individual who has to undertake the search to seek out the right employment oppor­ tunity. Mr. Speaker, I refer to three parties who must play a role in the resolution of this situation: the individual, in this case the student, be it secondary or postsecondary; the private sector; and government. I would now like to address each group separately. Mr.

Speaker, I've spent 23 years of my life working in the education system with the young people of this province, and I have a lot of confidence in them. I was somewhat disappointed to hear the Member for Little Bow, who is now absent from the House, make remarks about the negative attitude of youth back in the '60s. I was working with them during the '60s, and I think they were positive then as I believe they are positive now. In general I would say our students are intelligent, ambi­ tious, confident, and well prepared. They came through a sys­ tem that is highly competitive.

They have learned to accept success and to learn from failure. The young people out there are not criers and complainers. They are not like the opposition members who look to government to solve all problems. They are positive, progressive, eager, and competitive. Many of them have already found, and many more will find, jobs in the private sector without government assistance. Mr. Speaker, I've already indicated that students themselves have an important role to play in job search activities.

The programs and services offered by Alberta Manpower are designed in such a manner that they stress the importance of that individual responsibility. Alberta Career Centres are located in 14 centres throughout the province. They offer a broad range of services that out-of-school youth can take advan­ tage of to increase their employment prospects.

Some of these services are job clubs, job search workshops, career planning workshops — a variety of these run regularly on such topics as occupational choice, career decision-making, computerized career counselling — and consultation to groups who assist in the area of career development. We also have a variety of career information materials that are available to out-of-school youths; examples include our Job Seekers Handbook, Directions for the Future, It's About Time — of which 70,000 copies have already been distributed this year — Occupational Profiles, audiovisual series, and workbooks.

In co-operation with the federal government and the Alberta Chamber of Commerce and its various branches throughout the province, we also run a hire-a-student program under which I believe in excess of 42,000 high school students conducted job search techniques last year. This year the goal is to hit 60,000. Those are some of the services students and other people can take advantage of to increase their job search success. Mr. Speaker, I would now like to spend a few moments on what I would call a responsive reaction of a very responsible government to the youth employment situation.

In 1971 this government introduced a summer temporary employment pro­ gram commonly referred to as STEP. That program is directly aimed at our young people as they're coming out of the high schools and institutions. I think this government, in its wisdom, wanted a program that could be adjusted to the economic real­ ities out there. If you follow the funding of STEP, which started

318 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1984 in 1971 at a level of $1.2 million, it moved to slightly over $2 million in 1972, peaked in those years at $7 million in 1975 and, because it is responsive to the economic situation out there, dropped to $1.6 million in 1976. In 1983 the funding level was $12.5 million and, as was announced in the House March 19, the funding level for the summer temporary employment pro­ gram this year is $20 million or a 66 percent increase over 1983. That $20 million is predicted to create 9,000 jobs for eager students this summer.

There are four elements to the program: the provincial government department element, under which various depart­ ments of this government hire young people at a wage rate of $5.50 per hour; the community employment element, which is an opportunity for municipalities, nonprofit organizations, Indian reservations, Metis settlements, and isolated commu­ nities to create jobs and receive funding support to the tune of $3.80 an hour; a summer farm employment element, which runs for the months of July and August and is aimed primarily at the high school student, administered by Alberta Agriculture, where we cost-share the salary of the employee with the farmer; and the career opportunity element, which provides opportun­ ities in the areas of recreation, veterinary work, law enforce­ ment, and fish and wildlife.

I note that the hon. Member for Little Bow mentioned that program and offered some compli­ ments on it. I would remind members of the House and also the hon. Member for Little Bow, who I hope will read it in Hansard, that two days following the STEP announcement we made a very significant announcement of a year-round, private-sector wage subsidy and employment opportunity program to the tune of $26 million, aimed at providing 10,000 job opportunities in the market. One part of that program in particular should be of great importance to young people this summer.

I'm referring to the Alberta wage subsidy program, on which I would encour­ age all hon. members to pick up information and application forms. I suggest that young people who haven't already suc­ cessfully found a job take a copy of this information and this application form and personally contact employers of their choice. I'm sure that with some direct effort they will come up with an employment opportunity. Under that program we pay 50 percent of a new employee's wage up to $2.50 an hour. The other significant component of that year-round program was the Alberta training program.

Although this is where we cost-share the salary of someone already on staff to upgrade their training levels, it is significant to new employees because when that person is trained and moves up in the organization there is an opening created for someone to move in. I suggest that if you tally those two up, Mr. Speaker, there is a significant amount of $46 million that students have a crack at over the months ahead. In addition, for some years now Alberta Manpower has operated the Quebec/Alberta student employment exchange program, which provides opportunities for up to 30 Alberta students.

I was glad to see the hon. member who introduced the motion refer to our priority employment program, which is wrapping up as it always does on April 30 and which in this current winter has benefitted in excess of 11,000 unemployed Albertans. I would like to make some comments on the NEED program in response to the questions the hon. member raised. This program is jointly funded with the federal government. It expires June 30, 1984.

But it was a program aimed at a par­ ticular target group: first of all, the unemployment insurance recipient exhaustees; secondly, social service recipients; and thirdly, unemployed Albertans. So it was not a program that was primarily aimed at Alberta youth. In our analysis of the NEED program — and I think this is significant — there was a public-sector and a private-sector component to the program. When we analyzed what occurred in the private sector where NEED programs were approved, we found that the dollar invested was $5 from the private sector for every $1 of government funds that went in.

That is one positive way of getting some additional activity in the economy, and it simply strengthens my belief that we must work with the private sector, as opposed to the public sector, to resolve employment issues. [interjection] He might read about it. I would now like to make some comments about the private sector. Our government recognizes that the private sector is the primary engine of growth in our economy. By creating an environment conducive to private-sector investment, the government is at the same time promoting the growth of employment opportunities.

In the recent provincial budget given to this House by the hon. Provincial Treasurer, $1.7 billion was allocated to capital works programs. Projects such as the construction of the Olym­ pic winter games facilities, hospitals, and educational facilities will create approximately 38,000 man-years of work during the 1984-85 fiscal year. Crown corporations will also support cap­ ital projects worth approximately $1 billion, creating an addi­ tional 23,000 man-years of work.

And the capital projects division of the heritage fund will support projects worth in excess of a quarter of a billion dollars, creating approximately 2,000 man-years of employment. Mr. Speaker, that means that the capital works component of our budget, directly and indirectly, will create in excess of 60,000 man-years of employment.

If you want to try to flip over from man-years, which is a man working full-time for one year, to jobs — and you all know that in construction activities, one type of tradesman is in for a while, and then another one is in for a while — you could probably very easily triple the number of jobs involved and say that that capital budget will positively impact about 180,000 workers. In that budget we also had a small business venture capital program, which will have some positive impact on the devel­ opment of new businesses in our economy and is, I suggest, an area that some of our young people can look at as well.

I believe one of the things we will have to do to bring a solution to the employment situation is encourage and, to a certain extent, bring back the entrepreneurial spirit of Albertans. Mr. Speaker, for a moment I would like to take a look at the nine major employment sectors of our work force as they're tracked down and as the figures are given by Statistics Canada. I'm going to run a quick comparison between the year 1975 and the year 1983. I'm picking those years because 1975 was the first year Stats Canada started using this sort of an industrial- sector breakdown.

In 1975 there were 789,000 employment opportunities in this province; in 1983 there were 1,115,000 employment oppor­ tunities in this province — a dramatic increase of 41 percent in that eight-year period. If we look at the nine industrial sec­ tors, primary agriculture was the only one to show a decline in the number of people employed. It dropped from 111,000 in 1975 to 80,000 in 1983. I think everyone here from rural Alberta is quite aware of why that occurred.

It was the impact of technology on the agriculture industry and the increased productivity the farming community went through in order to survive as it has survived. Other primary industries, and this is particularly the gas and oil industry, increased in employment opportunities from 28.000 to 69.000 over that eight-year period — a dramatic increase of 146 percent, an average yearly increase of 16.3 percent. Manufacturing increased in employment opportunities

April 5, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 319 from 71,000 in 1975 to 86,000 in 1983; construction, 64,000 to 88,000; transport and utilities, 69,000 to 95,000; trade, 147,000 to 201,000; finance and real estate, 36,000 to 61,000; our service industry, 206,000 to 351,000; public administra­ tion, 57,000 to 84,000. Mr. Speaker, I suggest that anyone who would argue that this government has not diversified the economy in terms of employment opportunities over the past number of years had better take a look at those figures. The diversification is there; the positive growth is there. In closing, Mr.

Speaker, let me say that this government recognizes the private sector as the engine that drives our econ­ omy and views government's role as creating the environment under which the private sector can best function. I see the hon. Member for Little Bow is returning. You're going to have to read the education I have been giving you, sir. MR. R. SPEAKER: Thank you. MR. ISLEY: I believe the hon. Provincial Treasurer contributed significantly to this objective in the 1984 budget speech.

We are recovering steadily from the effects of the national energy program, and there are numerous signs of confidence emerging in our important, job-producing oil and gas industry. After having stressed the importance of the private sector in job creation, this government recognizes that there are certain sectors of the work force that require special attention or bridges into the work force. I'm thinking here of our youth, natives, and handicapped. As a responsive government, we have many of these bridges in place.

This is obvious evidence that this Progressive Conservative government is a firm believer in free enterprise that cares. MR. SZWENDER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a few comments to Motion 213 and respond to some of the remarks made by the Member for Little Bow. It's unfortunate that he wasn't here for the better part of the hon. minister's address and presentation because, as was mentioned, he would have found those comments very educating. It never ceases to amaze that whenever one of those opposition members sees one of those little orange cards, he dashes off rather quickly like a rabbit after a carrot.

It's unfortunate he was not here at the time. However, I must also commend the Member for Little Bow for bringing such an important issue to the attention of the Assembly. On first observation, as a person reads through it, it would seem to be very much a motherhood issue. How could anyone reading this motion not give it their initial full support? I guess it is the intention of any Albertan, any Canadian, any member of this government, to try to improve the plight of the unem­ ployed, whether they are going to school or are of an older age.

However, the one word in the motion that causes me some difficulty is the word "alleviate", because it leaves the impli­ cation that the government is not already trying to do that. Before I add some comments to what was already said by the hon. Minister of Manpower, I'd just like to recount some of the experiences I've had as a teacher over the last 10 years. As a high school teacher, I've certainly been in the front lines of those people who are preparing our students to enter into either further education or the world of work.

There were comments made by the Member for Little Bow that possibly our former youth in the late '60s were somewhat less responsible. That was debated to some point by the Member for Bonnyville, who is also a former teacher. Through my own observations and experiences, I would have to agree somewhat with the Member for Little Bow that maybe the late years of the 1960s, which I often refer to as those "hippy dippy days", when people sort of plugged a few flowers into their heads and hitchhiked over to San Francisco and "the world be damned" sort of thing . . .

The opportunities were there, and the econ­ omy was largely responsible for that type of an attitude. There was an interesting study done recently about what happened to some of those radical youth leaders of those days, the anti- Vietnam protesters and those types. Most of them are now wearing three-piece suits and have corporate jobs, so I guess they didn't destroy their minds with funny substances too badly. At least it doesn't appear that way. However, dealing more specifically with some of my own students, it was increasingly difficult to be a teacher through the mid-70s and on.

When you come into the classroom and you find two or three or a few more of the students going to sleep the moment you start speaking — hopefully, no reflection on the teacher. But the guy's been working pumping gas from midnight until eight in the morning; school was his chance to catch a few winks. You can appreciate how difficult it was, as a teacher, to assign homework and expect a ready response from the students. At the particular school where I was employed, we did a survey to determine to what extent students were employed.

In 1979, when this particular study was done, we found that 60 percent of the students were working either full-time or part-time. This was having a dramatic effect upon the quality of education those students were receiving. But it was their choice, and the choices were plentiful. In many ways it was also difficult to be a teacher when a student who dropped out of grade 10, 11, or 12 would come back to visit his friends at the school and then of course visit all his favourite teachers. So I had numerous visits from former students. They would tell you how well they were doing out there. What were they doing?

It didn't take much skill. All they needed was a strong back and a little bit of determination. You could work on the rigs. These guys would come back and tell you they were making $35,000 a year, with little effort and virtually no skills or education. Wages were rising to the point where even a job at Safeway stocking shelves was a great opportunity for someone. The point I'm driving at, Mr. Speaker, is that the economy was such that education was not the high priority it should have been. People took too much for granted.

Certainly in the last two years or so, I have seen a dramatic change in the attitude of the students I have come across or have had the opportunity to teach. They have become much more responsible, and that's through necessity. If they are going to survive in a mean, hard, tough world out there, they're going to have to face realities. I know many of my students have sort of reacted negatively, at least initially, to the Minister of Education's introduction of departmental exams.

They somehow feel its not fair that their older brothers and sisters went through the school system and were able to escape this tough examination process and that somehow they will be scrutinized much more. I've tried to explain to them: why is it that only in the school system a person isn't tested, when the moment they get out into the real work world or further education they're going to be constantly tested throughout the rest of their lives?

If they don't build up the skills, the abilities, the means of coping with those constant tests throughout their lives, they're going to be ill-prepared to cope with them later. That attitude has really changed. Students realize the importance of those exams, especially when, in the first year they were introduced, they were somewhat . . . MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. The Chair has some difficulty with the rationalization of the exams com­ pared to the motion that is before the House.

320 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1984 MR. SZWENDER; Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm just trying to tie this all in, as to the importance of education with respect to providing jobs to the young or to those attending schools, as mentioned in the motion. The point I'm trying to make is that without that full and proper education, there is little wonder that many of these people are unemployed.

Coming back to the motion, many of these people who dropped out of school in the late '70s and were able to find easy employment are now finding their way back into the schools, whether it's high school or the colleges or universities. I hope I've clarified the Speaker's misunderstanding of my comments. This is causing us all sorts of problems — overcrowding in the postsecondary institutions. But the motion still has to deal with what happens to those individuals when they finally get out into that work world. As an MLA, I get calls all the time.

I'm sure the Member for Little Bow isn't the only one who has unemployment in his constituency. We all walk the streets, we all pound on doors, and we're all very concerned when somebody says: I can't find a job. If the young haven't made any commitments, they can still live at home. They didn't have to go out and get an apartment, as they could have a few years ago, and get some kind of job that was paying them good money. They've had to stick with the parents. And maybe that's not all so bad, in the sense that maybe the family is becoming more of a unit in that respect.

I get calls from people I know well — former students, just constituents. They ask me: what can you do for my son? A lot of them are calling for themselves, but quite often it's with respect to their son or daughter. They ask me: can you get him a job? There's this fallacy, this belief that being an MLA sornehow qualifies a person as a personnel manager, and that you've got all kinds of inroads, contacts, and opportunities that you can just distribute to your constituents. Of course, Mr. Speaker, everyone recognizes that that is not so.

I have to give them some kind of explanatory answer as to what is best for those individuals. Certainly I always revert back to the argument that if this person hasn't got the fullest education possible, if they dropped out of school, if they had education in some area that is possibly now becoming redundant or will be eliminated because of new technology, they have to go back and upgrade those skills all the time. This is the best opportunity. It may be a blessing in disguise that the Member for Little Bow has not recognized. Why should a person just sit there at home?

He is unemployed; he may be out there looking for a job. But why not take that extra course or two in the evenings or full-time or whatever? Why be unemployed? Why not use that time to the best possible advantage? That is the best way to prepare, to make yourself more marketable in terms of skills. When the economy does make jobs more acces­ sible, those people will be ready to step in and take advantage of those opportunities. Anyway, on the comment made by the Member for Little Bow: I know there's another man who's contemplating some political participation, a native Albertan named Jim Coutts.

He is sort of testing the waters as to his abilities. He's come out with a very, very attractive platform. He's going to guarantee two years of employment to any graduate of any school or educational institution. If we look at that promise. I think it's another example of the totally irresponsible types of promises that our federal government, led by the Liberals, has made over the past that has put this country in such a deep financial mess. MR. COOK: Ray and Jim went to school together. MR. SZWENDER; They may well have. Those promises are very easy to make, Mr.

Speaker, but unfortunately for the short-term alleviation of a problem — it's an attractive promise to get the young vote. It certainly doesn't solve any problems in the long term and further exemplifies the totally unrealistic promises of the types of people who propose to run this country federally. Mr. Speaker, I don't want to dwell too long on these sta­ tistics, because the hon. Minister of Manpower has gone over many of the programs this government provides for young people.

The Member for Little Bow cited a number of those programs, so he's certainly not unaware of what this government is doing and has been doing. But maybe it would serve the purposes of this debate to go over some of the tre­ mendous efforts, given the current economic situation, that this government is attempting in order to alleviate the problem. We have a number of programs; again some of them have been mentioned. We have the priority employment program for the fiscal year 1983-84, which allocated $25.9 million and created almost 10,000 jobs — very significant in itself. Mr.

Speaker, I see that you're eyeing the clock. Maybe I could wind down my comments. I had quite a list of comments to make here but, in view of the clock, I will adjourn the debate. head: PUBLIC BILLS AND ORDERS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Second Reading) Bill 207 Remembrance Day Act MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, I take great pride in moving second reading of Bill 207, the Remembrance Day Act. I think this Bill, depending on its fate, will have been a long time in coming, I think back to the Member for Camrose, in 1972 before I was here, sponsoring a Bill called the rededication Act.

Some members of this House, although I don't see them, other than the Member for Little Bow, will remember that debate.

The object at that time was to take the profit out of Armistice Day, as it was called by the member, generally known as Remembrance Day, We then saw Bill 205, which I moved personally in 1981, to do not the same thing — the motivation behind it was really twofold: one, to have Albertans recognize the significance of Remembrance Day; and perhaps more importantly, as I said at second reading at that time, our young people, our children, our future leaders of Alberta should have an appreciation of what Remembrance Day is all about. Mr.

Speaker, when we look at things like Remembrance Day, I don't think any of us for one moment should believe the intent is to glorify war, That's not the intent at all. The intent Is to recognize, in a different way from Manitoba, which has a Remembrance Day Act, and British Columbia, which has a Remembrance Day Act, insofar as business activity is con­ cerned . . . The intent here — and I hope members following me will expand on it — is to give young Albertans a sense of the high price paid by many of their fellow Albertans for the freedoms we have today. Back in 1981, Mr.

Speaker, as I listened to hon. members in support of this Bill, I was taken very strongly by certain comments that were made, and I want to quote a couple of them today. For example, one of them said: Perception of Remembrance Day depends on one's age and one's thoughtfulness. Impressions can range from get­ ting a day off school or a day off work to standing on

April 5, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 321 cold, dull gray, dreary days [in November] in front of the cenotaph, with thoughts of fallen comrades. That was a quotation, Mr. Speaker, of the former Member for Calgary McCall, Mr. Andy Little, who many of us knew so well and respected. Another member, who at that time was something of a novice in this House, the Member for Macleod, our present Minister of Agriculture, made a very eloquent speech.

He said: whenever a person enters this Legislature, one of the first things they see are bronze plaques at the entrance with the names of fallen Albertans, people who gave their lives so we may live, people who fought wars so we may have the freedom of having this Legislature in a free society. I've never forgotten those com­ ments. He goes on to say that our young people today simply have no understanding of the horrors of war and the great price people paid, many of them being citizens of the Macleod con­ stituency. Mr.

Speaker, there were others who spoke in equally elo­ quent terms: the Member for Calgary North Hill recalling his days around Neepawa, Manitoba, aircraft flying overhead train­ ing airmen to go overseas to protect the western world; the Member for Calgary McKnight, a veteran himself, who gave great detail of Calgarians who were involved in those struggles; the Member for Cypress; the Member for Cardston; and other members. Mr.

Speaker, I don't want to dwell on the facts that some 6 million Canadians served during the '14-18 war some 60- odd years ago; or some 1.1 million Canadians in the second war, which resulted in almost 42,000 fatalities; or indeed the Korean conflict some 30 years ago. I don't want to dwell on the negative aspects. I want to attempt to dwell on the positive aspects and why I urge members to support Bill 207. It seems to me we've had many debates in this House about where our society is going today.

The fact that we as a Leg­ islature appropriate $240 million for single-parent support on one hand, when we heard in the question period even today about abuse with young people, when we hear day after day of society's breakdown as we know it, the terrible — I would call — ravages of our society related to sex crimes and other crimes, whether they're induced by abuse of alcohol or abuse of drugs or whatever . . . It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that many members have recognized that society has drifted too far one way, and there should be changes. Changes should be taken.

A few minutes ago we heard the motion from the Member for Little Bow about our young people not having employment and what should be done — that's his point of view, and I respect his point of view — then a response by the Minister of Manpower and others about what is being done. The fact remains, Mr. Speaker, that there's a great deal of unemploy­ ment; there's a great deal of marital break-up; there are a great many abandoned children. There's a great deal of a lot of things, much of which is peculiar only to our present generation.

Unless we attempt in some significant way to instill in our young people a sense of tradition, a sense of pride and understanding of our history — I don't know how we do that, unless we attempt to do it within the school system. After all is said and done, however we've arranged our society, it takes two and a half people in the same family to buy a home. We have to have teenagers involved. I recall the debate in this House on goals and objectives of education and talking about Cardston of all places, the Mormon capital of our nation, where family life is such a strong thing, where they sponsor a family night.

I heard members relate, Mr. Speaker, about parents who didn't see their children for a whole week because of scheduling and both of them working. I guess what I'm leading up to is that I believe the schools have the most significant role to play with the young people in our society today. I'm not in any way advocating the abdi­ cation of the parents' responsibility. My concern is with the children, the future Albertans. It's like reading the senate study at the U of A where 65 percent of northern children are in need of dental treatment.

In this province of affluence, in this day when we can afford to spend whatever, we have that situation existing. Unless the tooth aches, the tooth doesn't get fixed. Nobody seems to be able to think for, care for, or undertake anything on behalf of their children. The state somehow — we've seen appropriations of this House for day care, for all kinds of care, because people have not carried out their own responsibilities. Mr. Speaker, as we look to the potential of instilling in our young people a sense of responsibility, we first of all have to achieve that sense of understanding and knowledge.

I think this government is very gratuitous, because to my knowledge, every November 11 every member of this House places a wreath at a cenotaph or monument in their constituency. I look at the tremendous turnouts we have across southern Alberta but just a sprinkling of young people — increasing, agreed, but still a sprinkling. I think our young people must understand our his­ tory, our tradition and, the object of this Bill, the great price and the great sacrifice made by so many to realize the freedoms we have today. I think we have a responsibility to them. Mr.

Speaker, I think of the Canadian Legion, the Army, Navy, and Air Force Veterans, the Polish Combatants' Asso­ ciation — which this year are celebrating their 40th anniversary — the various veterans' organizations, the people in this prov­ ince who are prepared to go to our schools as volunteers each November 11 or thereabouts and undertake to perform cere­ monies on their own time so these young people can remember. Mr. Speaker, I think it's time we went a step further, and that's what Bill 207 is.

It provides that in every school in the province of Alberta no instruction or other school activity will take place on November 11 between the times of 11 and 11:05 and that a nondenominational ceremony will take place in that school, which many people, many organizations — particularly the Canadian Legion, Army, Navy, and Air Force — are pre­ pared to undertake, as I said. If people, for whatever reason, whether they be school trustees, parents, or teachers, are of the view that that should not occur in the school, then at a very minimum a two-minute silence shall take place. Mr.

Speaker, I would be naive and not very honest if I told the House that this was all I hope to accomplish with the Remembrance Day Act. I hope to accomplish much more. I hope to achieve something that occurs in England every year on November 11. They don't need laws; they don't even have a constitution. Out of respect for people who gave their lives, each and every year on November 11 from five minutes to until five minutes after eleven, everything stops. People don't have to be told. Young people have been taught through tradition.

I sense that in this province of ours, approaching its 80th birthday, because we weren't faced with those kinds of deci­ sions, because we didn't have bombers coming over dropping bombs, because we're not so close to the war, we didn't experi­ ence the same thing. So as the memories of the wars fade — and they do fade — people tend to let materialism creep in. You can't make a go unless your store is open nine days a week.

It seems to me that we've let materialism creep into our lives, much of it at the expense of church attendance, at the expense, I submit, of building moral conduct in our young people, though it traditionally was done by parents. In my view, it often doesn't happen anymore.

322 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1984 Because of that, Mr. Speaker, I strongly urge that members of this House support Bill 207 so that with its passage, we will instill in young Albertans — what better time to do it, recog­ nizing 1985 as the international year of the youth, when this government can make a commitment and undertake a very substantial project, even though the Bill appears to be very minor, that will affect the lives of young Albertans for years to come. Thank you. MR. STEVENS: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to join the debate today on the motion brought to us by the Member for Lethbridge West not just as the Member for Banff-Cochrane but as Flying Officer Greg Stevens, serial no. 230700, honourably discharged 1961. I am very moved by the reference to 1985 and the year of our youth, the year of our young people. I grew up as a youngster in Toronto during World War II. With my father having volunteered to serve our country in 1939, my sister, my mother, and I saw my dad about six years later. We were one of the lucky families because he came home.

My four uncles served our armed forces, and again my grandmother and grandfather were some of the lucky Canadians who had all their boys come back. This last November 11, on behalf of all members of the Assembly, on behalf of our government, I had the privilege of laying the wreath here in the Legislative Assembly, together with a representative of the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees and a lady who had been selected to represent the widows, mothers, and grandmothers of those who had fallen, who served Alberta and Canada so well. If you've had the opportunity, Mr.

Speaker and members of the Assembly, to read the report on the history of elections in this province since 1905 given to each of us by the Chief Electoral Officer, you'll note something that I didn't know. I wasn't in Alberta during the war and didn't know that when an election was called in this province, members of the Assem­ bly who served in our armed forces during the war were auto­ matically re-elected as a measure of the esteem their fellow Albertans held for them. Mr.

Speaker, last year I also had the privilege, together with our assistant parliamentary counsel, to represent all of us and to meet the veterans of World War I pilots Some of these men are today 87, 88, 92 years of age. They travelled to our city from all over North America, some from England. They enjoyed the hospitality of Edmonton; they were taken to Cold Lake. It was a pleasure and a privilege to see these men, to meet their granddaughters, daughters, and spouses, and to look at the photograph albums of the time they served us. Later when we moved to Winnipeg, I went to Isaac Newton high school.

If you watched television recently, there was a story about a young graduate of that high school who gave his life in World War II. His name was Pilot Officer Andy Mynar- ski. Andy's story would not be known but for the fact that someone survived. He was the pilot of an aircraft that was shot down and was falling out of the sky. As the crew bailed out, he, the pilot, noticed that his tailgunner could not move.

He crawled back through the flames, tried to release the tailgunner, was unsuc­ cessful, crawled again to a hole in the belly of the aircraft, turned and saluted the tailgunner, and dove out with his clothes, his parachute, his hair on fire. The only reason we know that story is that the aircraft crashed and miraculously the tailgunner survived. Andy was killed — one of the Victoria Cross winners in our country. In World War I, my father's father was caught in a mine explosion. That explosion took his clothes from him and buried him in sand, leaving only his hand showing.

Another soldier saw the hand move and came forward and dug my grandfather up. My grandfather had lost his memory. For two or three years he was rehabilitated in Sunnybrook hospital in Toronto. For that three years, my grandmother received the grand sum of $12 per month widows' allowance and continued to raise her five sons and daughter. Each day for [two] years, a sergeant came into the mess, the hospital cafeteria, and read a list of names. I do not know when he reached the letter S, but he read out Corporal Walter Stevens. My grandfather leapt from his chair, broke the table and the dishes, and said, here sir.

And he came home. The government re-collected the money, I might say, which meant that my father had to leave school in grade 8 to help recover it for the federal government. My brother-in-law, my sister, and I served in the peacetime air force. I served after Korea, from 1954 to 1961. Twenty- five years ago last week, we may recall reading about the 25th anniversary of the St. Lawrence Seaway. The Queen, Prince Philip, and President Eisenhower were at various locations in Canada.

I had the privilege of being on the honour guard when the Queen unveiled a very unique memorial on the grounds of the city hall in Ottawa. That memorial is in the shape of a world globe. But unusually, the continents are not the features. The features on that globe are the oceans of the world, and that memorial is to the men and women of our country who gave their lives on the oceans of the world in the merchant marine. Sixty years ago on April 1, the Royal Canadian Air Force, the RCAF, was formed.

If you think about Alberta's history, as the Member for Lethbridge West has mentioned, we're com­ ing up to our 80th birthday. If you think about some of the contributions Albertans have made, particularly familiar to myself is the British Commonwealth air training plan, and the air bases at Macleod, Nanton, Stavely, Vulcan, Penhold, and all of those communities across western Canada where thou­ sands of Commonwealth pilots, gunners, and navigators were trained. I don't know if anyone has written this story.

Did you know that it took more than one to fly a Lancaster, a Mosquito, a Wellington, a Handley Page, or a B-I7? It took several, some­ times up to 11 in the crew. Did you know that hundreds of women pilots ferried those aircraft across that big pond called the Atlantic, leapfrogging from point to point, many dying in weather or because of poor or nonexistent navigation aids or being shot down because they were unarmed. Of course we know that the contribution of women changed our society because of war.

Women were not only alone bringing up fam­ ilies; they found themselves making socks or working long shifts in plants. It changed the whole fabric of our society and has awakened in all of us the contribution of our entire human resource. I had the opportunity to serve in the RCAF when we began to train NATO pilots in Alberta, including pilots who were at one time our enemies. We trained German pilots. I recall October 4, 1957, too. If anyone knows that date, it's the date Sputnik first went around our globe.

Another event took place on that day, and that was the opening of a hangar door and the pulling onto the tarmac of the Avro Arrow, the plane that never was, That's why I left the RCAF. Shortly after that black Friday in 1959 when the Arrow program was can­ celled, I couldn't imagine myself being strapped to a saddle on a Bomarc missile. I had a navigator who is a pork producer in Red Deer today. He used to get airsick. I wasn't sure if it was because of my flying or his tummy. My second navigator is now principal of a school in Peterborough, Ontario. I know that every year

April 5, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 323 November 11 is as important to him with his students and teachers as it is to me. I'd like to share with members a story of the two of us one day in 1961. We were on duty in a CF- 100 alert hangar, watching on television the concerns about the Berlin Wall, the growing concerns about the possibility of missiles in Cuba. We were on 10-minute alert, which meant that we literally lived, ate, and slept in our flying suits.

There was an unknown radar blip about a hundred miles east of Labrador, and some duty operator somewhere pushed a button when he could not identify the source of that radar blip. A horn blared in our ears, and we woke up four air crew — two pilots, two navigators — and four ground crew. Our job was to get those two aircraft in the air in 10 minutes. I won't describe now the adrenaline and the heart pumping and the concern that each of us at our young ages of 19 and 20 had, but as we raced out to those aircraft other things were happening.

Doors were flying open on either end of the hangars, energizers were being warmed up, the aircraft were being armed. We raced up the ladders, climbed into our seats, did all the things one had to do; the airmen helped strap us in. We received our instructions. The purpose of this story is this. As we taxied out — by the time we hit the door of our hangar, which was about 60 feet long, we were probably doing 60 or 70 knots — heading for the runway to take off, they said, this is an armed exercise, which meant we had to stop.

We had to screech to a halt, and an airmen came up on a motorcycle, undid our wings on the outside, and armed our aircraft. So we took off and were told to go to angels 45 — 45,000 feet — vector 090 east, out over the Atlantic. A CF-100 glides like a stone. When you lose your engines at 40,000 feet, you may coast to 80 miles. When you get out 81 miles over the ocean, it starts to sound funny. So we heard all these noises in the engines. We were coming close to our target when they said, the strength of this is six. That meant there were six blips. Then they told us to arm our aircraft inside.

We broke the witness wires. Those are strange little wires. Witness wires are witnesses that you don't break them. So when I broke a witness wire, I knew that if I got back I would have to write a report that I broke it. We broke the witness wires and armed our aircraft. Number 2 was turned away to fly with the enemy, the bogey, going in the same direction to be ready, while my navigator and I went in to identify these six targets. I can tell you that I was extremely wet in various locations on my body. I was very nervous.

We talked about the possibility — even though we were married with young children — of our rockets failing. Would that mean Montreal? Would we ram one of them? We got to within 50 miles, and I could see the contrails. Ground control said: break off, break off, dive, return to base. It had all been an exercise to test the defence of Canada. The six bogies were six strategic air command B-52 bombers, flying from Spain to California. I share with you that as we turned back, my navigator and I spoke about the guns of August in World War I, Flanders Fields, the trenches, and the U-boats.

We talked about World War II: the blitzkrieg, the Battle of Britain, the Battle of the Atlantic, and the Holocaust. We talked of the tragedy of Korea and of the Canadians who died in Korea and flying equipment and supplies via Anchorage to Pusan and Seoul. We didn't know then of the tragedy ahead in Vietnam. Mr.

Speaker, I very much support this Bill, but most of all I support its intention: to have our teachers and perhaps those of us in the community come in and join our teachers in explain­ ing to young people the responsibilities each of us have to maintain our understanding, our tolerance, our sensitivity, our awareness of our strengths, our vigilance, and our commitment to our country, our province, and our families, and most of all, to preserve the freedoms those men and women served and died for, our dignity and all the obligations that we hold dear. I hope all members will support Bill 207. MRS. CRIPPS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to support the Bill. The Holidays Act of 1970 states: Throughout Canada in each and every year, the 11th day of November, being the day in the year 1918 on which the Great War was triumphantly concluded by an armi­ stice, is a holiday, and shall be kept and observed as such under the name of "Remembrance Day". The purpose is clearly stated in the Act. In 1981 I debated the Bill introduced by the hon. member, and I am pleased to support a similar Bill at this time. The former Bill dealt with a concern for the lack of commitment and dedication to Remembrance Day.

Since it dealt with sta­ tutory holidays, the cost to business of paying for days not worked would have been excessive and was of grave concern. But in this Bill, Mr. Speaker, there is no public expense attached, only public awareness, and hopefully a habit of hon­ ouring and remembering those to whom we owe so much. It has been brought to my attention by the Royal Canadian Legion in my constituency that some groups are officially taking November 11, the Remembrance Day holiday, on alternate days in the summer or at Christmastime.

This deferment or advance of November 11 has caused consternation among veterans, and well it might. While realizing that essential work must be done. November 11 is designated as a remembrance day by the Act and is not just another holiday. The Bill we are debating today is to ensure that the children of this province have an opportunity to become familiar with the reason for the Remembrance Day Act and the symbolism of the two minutes of silence. The Act would in no way hinder normal school studies, in that the two-minute silence would not disrupt the total classes for that day.

In fact there exists a very real opportunity for learning activities because of school involvement in the Remembrance Day ceremony. The number of people attending Remembrance Day services is declining. I believe this is an indication that we're taking our freedom for granted. As the devastations of war recede and the memory of those who made the supreme sacrifice fades, we are liable to become complacent. We must be thankful that today's generation has not been subjected to the ravages of war.

It is important to remember that the fight was for freedom and that we must be constantly vigilant to protect that freedom won at such a sacrifice. It is important not only that we pay tribute to the soldiers of all wars but that we consider the cause of war, the ravages of war, and the necessity to prevent future wars. Mr. Speaker, I support this Bill. It is very important, lest we forget. MR. WOO: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak in support of Bill 207 presented by the hon.

Member for Lethbridge West, I was attempting to find some additional meaning in terms of the significance of the Bill as it relates to schools and certainly in the broader sense of the word "remembrance". I have known the day that we celebrate as Remembrance Day today as both Armistice Day and Remembrance Day. I think the day itself holds a much broader meaning for all of us. But certainly the ultimate purpose is to commemorate those who gave their lives during the great wars. Certainly those who served will have a much deeper appreciation. I think one has to go a long way today to find survivors of World War I.

But in our present-day society there are many who represent World

324 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1984 War II, the Korean conflict, and others who have taken

part in UN peacekeeping missions and other policing actions. And certainly a great number of Canadians also participated in the very unpopular Vietnam War, if wars could be noted as being popular. When I look around this Assembly, Mr. Speaker, I'm reminded of the sacrifices that have been made by those who are no longer with us, members of this Assembly who presently serve in another capacity. I note that the hon. Speaker, the Member for Edmonton Meadowlark, served in a commissioned rank in the Royal Canadian Army.

Our provincial Attorney General, the Member for Edmonton Parkallen, served in com­ missioned rank in the Royal Canadian Artillery. And certainly those who wore the Air Force blue identify a generation gap that started perhaps with the jets, from Tiger Moths and Har- vards to T-33s and CF-100s. Those who wore the Air Force blue that serve in this Assembly today are the hon. members from Athabasca, Drumheller. Lloydminster, Calgary McKnight, and certainly the Member for Banff-Cochrane. I was very interested in the comments and remarks made by the hon. Member for Banff-Cochrane.

I noted with interest that as he reamed off his regimental number and I compared mine to his. mine has two digits less because certainly I'm much older than you are. It's also interesting to note that he spoke of Andy Mynarski and the incident with the Lancaster. I would like to advise the hon. Member for Banff-Cochrane that the tail gunner he spoke of is Flight Sergeant Pat Brophy, whom I had the honour of serving for two years as a flying officer operating out of 3040 CW Squadron, a federal control operation out of Senneterre in northern Quebec. I believe the hon.

Member for Lethbridge West is an appro­ priate member to present this Bill. He himself is a veteran of World War 11 and the Korean conflict, having served as a member of the Canadian Airborne Artillery unit. The Royal Canadian Navy is represented by the hon. Provincial Treasurer, who served in commissioned rank. Then we have a hybrid, the hon. Member for Cardston, who served in the 99th Infantry Division of the United States Army and is also the holder of the Bronze Star for gallantry. Our Clerk Assistant, Mr. Doug Blain, served with distinction with the Royal Canadian Air Force.

Our own Sergeant-at-Arms served with my cousin in Korea. I think he took my cousin along in case he got captured and needed an interpreter. Mr. Speaker, to me the word "remembrance" and the two minutes in particular are more than just the observance of two minutes of silence at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. In two minutes as I stand there, I think I can look at my own life in a compressed time period from World War II until the present time.

I think all of those who served share with me the fact of how often we cut school and lay down in a ditch someplace out in a field and watched the Harvards go by, watched the army trucks roll through, watched the U.S. Army move from the States in Montana up the Alaska H