Manitoba Hansard — 5 September 1969 (Sitting 21, 29th Legislature, 1st Session)

29-1-21

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

--------------------- �--- I THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA 10:00 o'clock, Friday, September 5, 1969 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. 467 MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Re ports by Standing and Special Committees. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR . PETER FOX (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Special Committee of the House appointed to prepare lists of members to compose the Standing Committees ordered by the House. MR.

ClERK: Your Special Committee appointed to prepare a list of members to compose the Standing Committees ordered by the House beg leave to present the following as their First Report. Your Committee met and prepared the following list of Members to compose the Stand ing Committees ordered by the House: Privileges and Elections: Hon. Messrs: Green, Mackling, Paulley. Messrs: Allard, Bilton, Boyce, Doern, Einarson, Gonick, Gottfried, Johnston (Portage), McBryde, McGill, McKellar, McKenzie, Weir. Public Accounts: Hon. Messrs: Borowski, Cherniack, Evans, Miller, Paulley, Pawley.

Messrs: Barrow, Craik, Desjardins, Doern, Ferguson, Froese, Gonick, Gottfried, Hardy, Henderson, Jenkins, Jorgenson, Malinowski, McGregor, McKenzie, Molgat, Patrick, Shafransky, Sherman, Spivak, Turnbull, Uruski, Weir. Public Utilities and Natural Resources: Hon. Messrs: Burtniak, Cherniack, Evans, Green, Toupin. Messrs: Barrow, Beard, Bilton, Boyce, Craik, Desjardins, Doern, Enns, Fox, Froese, Gonick, Graham, Jenkins, Johannson, Johnston (Portage), Johnston (Sturgeon Creek), McGill, Molgat, Shafransky, Spivak, Turnbull, Watt. Agriculture: Hon. Messrs: Borowski, Burtniak, Pawley, Petursson, Uskiw.

Messrs: Allard, Barkman, Barrow, Boyce, Einarson, Enns, Ferguson, Graham, Gonick, Gottfried, Henderson, Johannson, Johnston (Portage), Jorgenson, McBryde, McGill, McGregor, McKellar, Malinowski, Turnbull, Uruski, Watt. Municipal Affairs: Hon. Messrs: Burtniak, Cherniack, Green, Mackling, Miller, Paulley. Messrs: Allard, Barkman, Boyce, Claydon, Ferguson, Fox, Girard, Hardy, Henderson, Jenkins, Johannson, Johnston (Sturgeon Creek), Malinowski, McBryde, McGill, Moug, Patrick, Shafransky, Sherman, Turnbull, Uruski and Mrs. Trueman. Law Amendments: Hon.

Messrs: Borowski, Burtniak, Cherniack, Evans, Green, Mackling, Miller, Petursson, Paulley, Pawley, Toupin, Uskiw. Messrs: Allard, Barrow, Beard, Bilton, Boyce, Claydon, Craik, Desjardins, Doern, Einarson, Enns, Fox, Froese, Girard, Gonick, Gottfried, Graham, Hardy, Jenkins, Johannson, Johnston (Portage), Johnston (Sturgeon Creek), Jorgenson, McBryde, McKellar, McKenzie, Molgat, Moug, Patrick, Shafransky, Sherman, Spivak, Turnbull, Uruski, Watt, Weir and Mrs. Trueman. Private Bills, Standing Orders, Printing, and Library: Hon. Messrs: Evans, Mackling, Paulley, Toupin, Uskiw.

Messrs: Barkman, Barrow, Claydon, Craik, Desjardins, Doern, Einarson, Enns, Gottfried, Jorgenson, Malinowski, McBryde, McKellar, Molgat, Uruski and Mrs. Trueman. Industrial Relations: Hon. Messrs: Green, Paulley, Petursson. Messrs: Beard, Boyce, Claydon, Fox, Girard, Hardy, Jenkins, Johannson, Johnston (Portage), Malinowski, McGregor, McKenzie, Moug, Patrick, Shafransky, Sherman, Turnbull. Statutory Regulations and Orders: Hon. Messrs: Mackling, Miller, Toupin, Uskiw. Messrs: Allard, Barkman, Bilton, Desjardins, Fox, Gonick, Graham, Johannson, Spivak, Weir and Mrs. Trueman.

468 September 5, 1969 MR. FOX: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Crescentwood, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Orders of the Day. The Honour able Member for Assiniboia. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. STEVE P A TRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Minister without Portfolio.

Is the Minister aware that Prince Philip will be visiting Canada next month, and if so has anything been done to invite him to Manitoba? HON. PHILIP PETURSSON (Minister of Cultural Affairs)(Wellington): I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I didn't quite get the question. MR. PATRICK: Is the Minister aware that Prince Philip will be visiting Canada next month- I understand he's visiting ten cities. Has he been invited to visit Manitoba? MR. PETURSSON: Mr. Speaker, the information that I have is only what I read in the newspaper. I noticed in the newspaper item that he was bypassing Winnipeg. MR.

PATRICK: Would the Minister consider the feasibility of inviting Prince Philip through proper channels ? MR. PETURSSON: We can look into that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Honourable the Minister of Transportation. Since he is dissatisfied with the operation of TransAir I wondered whether he's entertaining any ideas of a take over and making it a Provincial Crown Corporation? HON. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation) (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, if she can convince her side to support the idea we'll certainly consider it, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services. Is it the intention of the government to introduce deterrent fees for Medicare in Manitoba as a result of its reduction in premiums. HON. SIDNEY GREEN (Minister of Health and Social Services)(Inkster): Mr. Speaker, there is no such intention. MR. PATRICK: A subsequent question. Can the Minister say if he is opposed or in favour of deterrent fees? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to tell the honourable member that my opinion is well known, but I'm going to speak now for the administration and say there is no such intention and leave it at that. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have one more subsequent question. According to my calculations the revenue estimates on individuals for provincial income tax this year is $10. 2 .million and on the corporations it's 2. 5 a total of $12. 7 million. The Minister yesterday said it will require $28 million to finance. I wonder if the tax on corporations and individuals in the province will be tripled to raise this money? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I advised the House yesterday that I would not be able to specifically say how the money will be raised and that is my answer. I don't accept the as sumptions made by the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL ( Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, I have a question I would direct to the Honourable First Minister. I wonder if he's had an opportunity to review the correspon dence with the Keystone Centre Committee especially as it relates to the calling of a meeting which was intended previously ? HON. ED. SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, it is still our intention to have this meeting with people representative of the Brandon Winter Fair Board, because I can tell my honourable friend these problems that relate to the possible construction of the Keystone Centre at Brandon are very difficult inasmuch as what is involved is a federal commitment to the Province of Manitoba for a certain amount in the way of centennial grants and we have not been able to get confirmation from the Federal Government as to the amount of federal grants that will be forthcoming to Manitoba for centennial purposes.

Until we get that resolved it is difficult for the Province of Manitoba to in turn enter into any firm arrangement with any

September 5, 1969 469 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd.) .... municipality relative to possible centennial construction projects. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR . GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): .... supplementary question for the Minister of Health and Social Services. Did I understand him correctly to say that he could not answer the question as to how the money would be raised until the Finance Minister tabled his estimates, or that he did not know how the money was going to be raised to make up for the change in Medicare. MR . GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, it amounts to the same thing and that I will not say how the money will be raised. I don't choose to tell my honourable member what I know and what I don't know about this particular subject. I think that as far away as I can stay from that the better in keeping with what is supposed to be kept secret in terms of budgetary proposals. So regardless as to how it comes about I don't intend to give that information to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the question directed to the First Minister by the Member for Brandon East. Did I understand the First Minister to say that any assistance coming from the Province of Manitoba in regard to the Key stone Centre, which is an amalgamation of the two winter and summer fair boards in Brandon which is an agricultural project, that any assistance would depend on centennial agreements with the Federal Government? MR . SCHREYER: That's basically correct, Mr. Speaker.

May I suggest in reply to the Honourable Member for Brandon West and the Honourable Member for Arthur that the Honour able Minister of Cultural Affairs can give further definition to this. The Honourable Minister I understand has made arrangements to meet with the Brandon Winter Fair Board executive. Perhaps the Minister would care to elaborate. · MR . PETURSSON: Mr. Speaker, there isn't very much to add to what the Honourable the First Minister has said but a meeting has been arranged for next Thursday, on the 11th of this month, in Brandon with Mr. McGuinness and his people. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister if I may. Is it still the intention of the government and First Minister to confer with the opposition parties in the matter of the appointment of the Ombudsman? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, is the question whether it is our intention to confer with the opposition before appointment of the Ombudsman? Yes, definitely. MR . MOLGAT: Well Mr. Speaker, can the First Minister then explain the news stories that I keep on hearing again this morning as I listened to my radio that in fact Mr.

Harold Langdon is going to be appointed today and named by the First Minister today. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, my curiosity was titillated as much as was the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR . GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): Mr. Speaker, with all that water yesterday I wondered whether the Minister of Municipal Affairs has got the condition straightened up in the Town of Churchill. HON. HOWARD R. P AWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, as I'd indicated yesterday and the day before, I will be making a statement in a very short time.

I'm trying desperately to work out an answer for my honourable friend from Churchill. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . Jacob M. FROESE (Rbineland): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable the Minister of Education. Has the government decided on any further technical or vocational schools that might be constructed this year? HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Youth and Education) (Seven Oaks): I'll have to take that question as notice. Could you be more specific in what area you're talking about, what area of the Province of Manitoba? MR.

FROESE: Well naturally I'm interested in the southern part of the province but I would also be interested to know whether a decision has been made to increase the number and where any new additional schools will be built of that nature. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, firstly, I think the honourable member is aware that as to the location, that is up to the school board in question, but I will take as notice of motion the question whether any decisions have been made in this regard. I really haven't got the answer with me.

470 September 5, 1969 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Tourism and Recreation) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, there were a couple of questions asked a day or two ago. I noticed that one question which was asked by the Honourable Member for LaVerendrye -- he's not in his seat this morning -- the question was: is this government considering the discontinuation for fees now charged for en tering into provincial parks, referring to all parks. The answer is, of course, we have no changes planned in that regard.

The other question that I think that I should have corrected the answer to quite some time ago in relation to a question that was asked by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose; I did speak to him privately and I think that I made the correction, but just for the benefit of the House and Hansard, I unfortunately gave him the wrong figure. The question was: will there be federal contribution to the provincial park and development at Hecla under the FRED Agreement or under a separate unit? Could the Minister indicate what the federal contribution is ? I gave him the wrong figure at the time.

So for the purpose of correction, the figure is $1,896,000 which is 60 percent of the FRED Agreement. While I am on my feet at the present time I would like to, Mr. Speaker, make a further announcement. This is in conjunction with the Hecla complex regarding the Grindstone Point area. A 63, 805 acre expanse of land and water in the Grindstone Point area on the western shore of Lake Winnipeg has been reserved for future development as a provincial recreation area. The new recreation area is adjacent to the recently announced Hecla Provincial Park.

The area includes 51, 3'50 acres on the mainland at Grindstone, lOO acres of land on Janora Island and 12, 355 acres of water. There are no immediate plans for development of Grindstone provincial recreation area. No funds have been applied for nor assigned under the Inter lake FRED Agree ment nor have any provincial funds been allocated for the development in the area. The govern ment's purpose in creating the Grindstone provincial recreation area at this time is to reserve the area for future development when residential use demands in Hecla Provincial Park warrant this development.

The Grindstone recreation area long range planning will include subdivisions for cottage sites along the lakeshore, harbours, beaches, campgrounds, picnic sites, marinas and service centres. It is anticipated that the revenues derived from various developments will put much of the long range project on a self-supporting base. The Grindstone recreation area has been set aside to complement in the future the immediate developments planned for Hecla Provincial Park. This is part of the whole complex on Hecla Island. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Minister for his statement. I take it then that $1, 80 0, 000 will be the federal contribution. Now will there be anything insofar as the building of a hard surface road to the park. At the moment there is no hard surface access. Is it the intention to put one in? Is it included in this figure? And will there be a federal contribution separately? MR . BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker, at the moment I cannot answer that question to the honour able member, but when all the plans are looked at carefully I'm sure I'll be able to give the answer to the honourable member. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. In view of the fact that the government has announced the hiring of a high priced consultant· in the auto insurance field and the fact that the First Minister has also indicated that the Committee of the House will not be reconvened, can the Minister now indicate to the House the procedure by which the gov ernment intends to review the matter of auto insurance and the part the members are going to play in it? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it is hoped that we can establish a committee of enquiry into the auto insurance industry, that the committee-- perhaps I should call it com mission -- will have the expertise on it that will be able to make this full inquiry and to do so with precision and then to recommend policy to the government. I would assume that there will certainly be a stage or a point in which a committee of this House will involve itself with auto insurance policy. Certainly at the legislative stage, certainly by then. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question.

Will members of this House be part of the commission of inquiry? MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe so. Perhaps the Minister of Municipal Affairs -- Minister of Government Services can indicate whether that is in fact so.

---------- -----�----�------- , �------�---- -------��-- September 5, 1969 471 MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, in connection with the committee of inquiry it is presently under consideration by myself. I noted the news item that was referred to by the Member from Souris-Killarney. I might mention that although it referred to a committee made up of certain people it was a news story per se, it was not a quote from myself.

To date there has been no indication by myself as to exactly the form that this committee will take and I would hope that in the near future I could indicate precisely the nature of this committee to the House. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question. Is it the in tention of the Minister to have a Royal Commission? MR. SCHREYER : Mr. Speaker , that is not the government's intention. MR . McKEN ZIE: Mr. Speaker, will there be Manitobans on this committ ee only or will they be out of province expertise on the committee? MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, one presumes that the greater number on this study group will be Manitoban, but since Manitobans aren't narrow and parochial, I would hope that there may be one or two from outside the province. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. P A TRICK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable First Minister.

In view of the First Minister's disclosure the other day that he is considering the appointment of Professor Watkins to some undisclosed position in the government, could he advise the House whether his thinking has been changed since yesterday's disclosure that Pro fessor Watkins is chief spokesman for a group that wants to steer the N,D.P. Party much more to the left. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I embrace that philosophy that says "let a hundred schools of thought contend". ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The adjourned debates on second readings. The proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister.

The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. MOLGAT : Mr. Speaker, the same way as I welcomed the other day the bill on a Provincial Auditor I welcome this one as well. Last year when this was introduced by the gov ernment, I went back through my files and had prepared some comments in the light of that particular government introducing this piece of legislation, and had some very interesting notes going back over the years when they had resisted valiantly the appointment of an Ombudsman.

I regret that my honourable friend the then Attorney-General is no longer in this House because it would have been a pleasure to read back to him some select portions of past speeches. There was one in particular where he had warned us that the appointment of an Ombudsman would bring in an ogre into our midst, and I found it rather amusing that after that sort of an approach the government was proce eding. However, in view of the fact that it's now a new government pro posing it, I will forego the pleasure of reading past speeches on the subject. So far as this particular bill, Mr.

Speaker, I consider it one of the very important steps forward in protecting our citizens. With government becoming ever bigger, government be coming more and more involved in the daily affairs of the citizens, I think it is important that this particular measure of an Ombudsman be established in Manitoba and be made most effective in Manitoba. It is the only way in which, well not the only way, but it's one of the ways in which we can make sure that the individual at all times has the right to redress.

It is well and fine to say that the individual can go to the courts , there are other methods and so on, but we well know that the courts are not always accessible to everyone because of cost. It is well and fine to say to an individual you have other rights of appeal, but if he can't afford to do that, Mr. Speaker, then in fact he is barred from that appeal just as effectively as if it didn't exist. The establish ment of the Ombudsman puts every individual who feels that he has a just case against govern ment, it puts him in the position where at no cost to himself, he can seek that redress.

Quite obviously, the choice of the individual will be of major importance in making the Ombudsman post operative, and I know the First Minister in this area has been attempting to make sure that he does get the best man possible, and that there is general agreement from all parties, making sure that it is not a political appointment per se. I certainly hope that in his quest he will find the very best man available - particularly for the first appointment. I think it is crucial that that individual be of the very highest calibre because the first period will probably be the most difficult.

472 SepteDlber 5, 1969 (MR. MOLGAT cont1d.) On looking at the bill itself it seeDls to Dle that in general the responsibilities given to the ODlbudsDlan are such that he can fulfill his function. Once again, it will depend partly on how gover=ent react to the ODlbudsDlan hiDlBelf. If gover=ent wants to be open and assist hiDl in his work then quite obviously he can do a better job. If there is an atteDlpt on the part of gov er=ent to hold back and to prevent hiDl froDl working effectively, then it doesn't Dlatter really how carefully we write the act it still won't work properly. So it will be a question then of, (

a) a very good Dlan on the one side; and (

b) the attitude of gover=ent on the other. I know DlY honourable friend speaks about openess in gover=ent and I believe that he intends to do so. I just want to re-eDlphasize that in this particular area there will have to be a conscious effort on the part of the gover=ent to assist the ODlbudsDlan, and I trust that this is what Dly honourable friend intends to do. There are certain sections in the act, Mr. Speaker, and I recognize that we are not deal ing with the

section by

section but they are pertinent to the whole principle behind the bill, which we Inight look at when we reach the CODlDlittee stage to see if we shouldn't Dlake son1e changes that would Dlake the post Dlore effective, I note for exan1ple, a change in this bill froDl the previous one suggested by the previous governn1ent where the appointee will be there for a period of six years with the right of renoinination for another six years but no Dlore beyond that. I wonder if this restriction should be there, whether this restriction will not in fact Dlake it Inore difficult to get the right Dlan for the job.

That it Dlight instead of- I believe that it probably was put in there to try in a sense to ensure the independence of the individual, that he would be free to Dlake his decisions knowing that there was a set terDl and then regardless of what he did he would be through in any case.

But the danger that I see is that it Dlay in fact restrict the type of individual that we can get, because it Inay liDlit us to soDleone who is either very advanced in years and siDlply knows that he's only going to be working for a period of six years, and beyond that doesn1t Want to work; Dlay liDlit US frODl getting a younger Dlan if he knOWS that it can only be for a twelve year period. It Dlay liinit us in getting the type of Dlan who Inay not be able to leave SODle other eDlployinent if he doesn't know that he Dlay have a perinanent position.

So I think we Dlight look at that one to see whether in fact it is not a liDliting factor rather than an iDlproveDlent. Then the question of the ren1oval or suspension. I Dlentioned the other day when speaking on the Provincial Auditor's bill that there was a

section there and the previous First Minister referred to it as coining directly froDl the CoDlptroller-General's Act, that we Dlight look at this whole question of reinoval or suspension ofbothposts -the Provincial Auditor and the ODlbudsDlan together to see if we couldn't ensure that he be coDlpletely free froDl any possible political pressures of any kind. Instead of having it as a set percentage of the House -two thirds -knowing that the House can change its coDlposition in the future, have it instead on the basis of Dlaking sure that the gover=ent and the opposition parties Dlust agree to the reDloval.

I think that this would ensure again that we start off on the foot that will ensure the coDlplete iDlpartiality of the individual, and assure hiDl of being coinpletely protected insofar as the House is concerned. I note that there are soDle sections in the act, Mr. Speaker, which pern1it the Attorney General to liDlit soDle of the investigation of the ODlbudsDlan.

And I wonder if this is really necessary to have the Attorney-General position where he can tell the ODlbudsDlan it is not in the public interest for you to pursue such and such a question, Now if we were dealing with a national situation, if we were dealing here with a bill in Ottawa where there are questions of national security involved, where you Dlay be dealing with spies and any other Dlatters involving other nations, then I think I could see the situation where there Dlight be a case for security.

But I really cannot see in the province of Manitoba that there needs to be a decision by the Attorney-General, or by a gover=ent Dlinister that soinething is not in the public interest. If we have appointed a good ODlbudsDlan - I trust we will -then I think we should leave it up to the ODlbudsDlan to Dlake that decision, and not have gover=ent in the position where it can decide the ODlbudsDlan shall not study such and such a thing. Let us take, for exainple, Mr. Speaker, the situation that arose here last year on the question of South Indian Lake.

We on this side of the House felt that certain inforDlation should coDle out, and gover=ent on that side of the House said no, that inforDlation shall not coDle out. Had we gone to the ODlbudsDlan, gover=ent could have said to hiDl no, that inforDlation cannot coDle out, Now is this desirable? I don't think it is. I think that the ODlbudsDlan ought

September 5, 1969 473 (MR. MOLGAT cont•d.) •••. to be able to make that decision. If we have faith in the office, faith in the individual, then I think we have to give him that privilege. Now I know that's painful for government, I know that when my honourable friends were on this side they would have held the view that I'm now proposing; having proved so from that side, I suspect that they are going to find this a little more difficult to do. But I caution them in taking that position because I am satisfied that in the long run openness is the best policy.

In the long run government is much better if a mistake has been made to readily admit it rather than attempt to cover it up, and attempt to have the matters stopped from coming out in the open. I think that the Ombudsman here should not be limited by a government minister telling him you cannot pursue such and such a course. It should be up to the Ombudsman to make that decision. I cannot think of any cases in Manitoba where there are such security matters at stake that the Ombudsman should not be in a position to make the decision. I think there are as well section, Mr.

Speaker, where we have to see whether the act as it reads now might not interfere with the lawyer-client relationship which we accept as a necessary protection. It appears to me from the act that the Ombudsman is in a position to call on any person -whether it be in government or out of government -and insist that they produce evidence and answer under oath. This - maybe we should look at it, maybe this is the right course, but I think that we should be sure of what we're doing when we do it. And again then at the committee stage I think it is something that we should look at. So, Mr.

Speaker, with these comments and reservations I think by and large the bill is a good one, and I support it completely in principle. Before I leave the subject, however, Mr. Speaker, I want to touch on another question in general on the question of the Ombudsman, because we've had some debates here in the House previously, and the First Minister and myself were involved in them- way back in 1962 -as to who should take credit for the Ombudsman idea in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I suppose like many politicians I was attempting to take the credit for myself.

I shouldn't say the present First Minister attempted to do so for himself, but some of his colleagues did as I recall the debate, so I thought that it would be proper, Mr. Speaker, to research the subject a little bit and give the credit where the credit goes. --(Interjection) -- No, not Australia really. I'm thinking in terms of here in Manitoba when the action was first taken. And I 'm pleased to say, Mr.

Speaker, that the credit goes to an individual for whom I have a very high regard and was part of a program that he launched in Manitoba when he was the First Minister, dealing with the whole question of civil rights, the whole question of the reform of our legislative structures, reform of our electoral structures and so on - Douglas Campbell the Premier of Manitoba when he instituted the Electoral Reforms Act as the first one in North American on its basis of com pletely free and impartial, did something that was outstanding.

His first steps to establish a permanent speaker which still have not been completed as you know, Mr. Speaker, but which I am hopeful are going to come to pass at some stage, were certainly introduced by,again by Douglas Campbell. Mr. Speaker, the first steps that I've been able to discern in Manitoba re garding an Ombudsman also come back to Doug. Campbell. In going through the old files, Mr.

Speaker, I find that on the 24th of January, 1956- long before the present First Minister was in this House-- (Interjection) -- Well two years --be fore certainly I had anything to do with the question of the Ombudsman, the Honourable Douglas Campbell, Premier of Manitoba, on the 24th of January, '56 was writing to the Minister for Denmark in Ottawa the following letter, and I would like to read it into the record: "Your Excellency. Last month our local newspaper, The Winnipeg Free Press, carried an

article written by the special correspondent Fred M. Hechinger in Copenhagen for the New York Herald Tribune. Mr. Hechinger wrote of a new position created by the Danish Government that will enable its ministers to give better service to their people. It also stated that Professor or Hurwitz has been appointed as the new Ombudsman, and that he and his staff are deeply immers ed in their work. Naturally I am interested and would greatly appreciate any information you could obtain for me on this subject. Yours sincerely, Douglas Campbell, Premier of Manitoba." This was followed, Mr.

Speaker, by a good deal of correspondence between tl:ie Royal Danish Embassy in Ottawa, and the Premier of Manitoba in 1956 dealing with the subject. Copies or translation of the Danish bill was sent. This, Mr. Speaker, was the beginning of the Ombuds man insofar as Manitoba was concerned. Going through the same files, Mr. Speaker, of my predecessor as leader of my party, I found a great deal of interesting material on the Ombudsman. Noted in particular one clipping indicating the distance to which the Danish Ombudsman can go and I think that we might well look

474 September 5, 1969 (MR. MOLGAT cont•d.) •••• at this when we come along at the committee stage to see how this bill is really going to work in Manitoba. I found for example that the Danish Ombudsman not only does work for private citizens, but has in some cases actually acted insofar as the Legisla ture. There's one case in particular where the Government of Denmark was objecting to giving information regarding Scandinavian Airlines - some problems of funding. The matter was dis cussed in the House.

The government was able to prevent the information from coming out through their majority in the House, but five private members referred the matter to the Ombudsman; a matter on which the House had made a decision, but private members feeling that their rights had been infringed upon went to the Ombudsman; the Ombudsman studied the matter and the Ombudsman found that the five private members were right. I think it's inter esting to note how far then they have gone insofar as making this Ombudsman a most effective tool. Now I do not think that the Act as it now reads intends to go that far.

I think maybe we should look at it to see whether in fact this is the proper course. I know there are the problems of supremacy of the House and all the rest of it, but the course that we should be looking at at all times, Mr. Speaker, is what is right for the citizens of this province. Not what is right for the political parties. Now what is right for the members of this House but what is right for the citizens .. And if the Ombudsman should be given these additional powers then I think we should look at them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SIDNEY SPIV AK, Q, C. (River Heights) : Mr.

Speaker, I listened with great interest to the comments of the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose, and I'd like to if I may make a short contribution to the debate on this matter. I realize that we will have an opportunity in committee to deal with it in greater detail. I would say that I will be in agreement with the remarks of the previous speaker with respect to the question of tenure. I think this is a very important matter and important to be considered. I'm not sure that this side of the House has been given an adequate explanation yet by the First Minister as to the reason for the change.

I think it's important to indicate the reasons for the change because the former Act had the appointment until 165 with a

section that was deliberately put in based on the attempt to try and achieve the aims and objectives that the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose has already indicated. Now, there are a couple of observations that I would like to make with respect to the Ombudsman. I'm not sure that the thinking on the part of the government has been clarified, but I think it's important to consider a couple of specific points of view that should be considered with respect to the organization and setup of the office of the Ombudsman.

Firstly, the Ombudsman •s office and his headquarters and operations should not be in this Legislative Building, nor should it be in the Norquay Building. It should be separate and apart from government offices as we now know them. This I think is important and essential if we are going to be able to indicate in a very real manner to the public that there is an independence of government. Secondly, the budget for the office. It will have to be a fairly extensive one, one which will grow.

I understand, from my information at least, that in Alberta the Ombudsman's budget is approximately $100, 000 and I would suspect that it will be that here in Manitoba after the first year's operation. I think it's important that the salary of the Ombudsman be tied and identified to a salary that, as it rises, so would the Ombudsman, and I would suggest there are two possibilities. One would be that the salary of the Ombudsman should be tied to the salary of the Deputy Minister and as rises take place in the Deputy Minister, so rises accordingly would take place in the case of the Ombudsman's salary.

But probably and a better way would be to tie his salary and identify that with that of the Judge of the Court of Queen's Bench, because in many respects his functions have some judicial implications, and in this respect I would think that there should be some consideration given to tying it down so that it is a known situation and it is not subject to the demands or controls of the individual who may want to be hired at this point, or whom you may want to hire, and who may then resign and someone else may be con sidered and who will not be prepared to come in for the salary and negotiations will have to take place which will change it.

I think this is something that should be definite. It should be undel' stood by those who may be considered as applicants, and by everyone in this Assembly. Now, it becomes pretty obvious that although the Ombudsman will be in the

section of the Act dealing with the fact that the Ombudsman --that the Civil Service Act will apply to persons

September 5, 1969 475 (MR. SPIV AK cont'd.) ••.• who are employed in the Ombudsman. I tbink the import ant factor to recognize is the Ombudsman office must not become a bureaucratic office.

The Ombudsman must be the one who makes the decision to initiate the investigations that have to be made, and he must be the one who then determines what recommendations , if any, have to be made, and it cannot be done by anyone else but by himself, and although he may have in his office people who will help and assist in the investigatory function, nevertheless it is the Ombudsman himself who is going to have to have the prime responsibility and who is going to have to have the contact with the members of the public who have a specific complaint that has to be investigated by him. Now there is one

section that was eliminated in the new Act which I must refer to and, although we will be dealing with sections later on, it has to do with a principle invoived and I'm rather surprised, and I think we are entitled on this side to an explanation of why this was ex cluded; and this is

section -- in the old Act, the Act that was tabled in the House in the last session, this would be

Section 18, and it would be

section (

e) of 18, and I'd like to , if I may, read it for the benefit of the members.

Section 18 states: "Nothing in this Act authorizes the Ombudsman to investigate (

e) any decision, recommendation, act or omission of any person acting as a solicitor or counsel for the Crown in relation to any action or proceedings to which the Crown is a party, or in which the Crown has an interest, or in relation to any claim against or by or on behalf of the Crown," Now this was in the previous Act tabled in the House. For some reason, the government has seen fit to exclude this section, which means that recommendations of solicitors who are acting for Crown will be subject to the purview of the Ombudsman. Now I may say that the Alberta Act has a similar

section to the one that was excluded, and I would refer to the Alberta Act and

Section 12(

b) in which is says that "nothing in this Act authorizes the Ombudsman to investigate any decision, recommendation, act or omission of any person acting as a solicitor or for the Crown, or acting as counsel for the Crown in relation to any proceedings. " I may say as well that the New Zealand Act has a

section similar to

Section 18(e) , which is included in the New Zealand Act, and in the work of Rowat on the Ombudsman, Northey, who writes the

chapter on the New Zealand Parliamentary Commissioner, in referring to this specific

section says: "although the first exclusion seems to be a reasonable protection of the Crown's litigation. " Now I have in front of me notes from a speech given by Commissioner McLellan, who is the Ombudsman in Alberta, when he talked in terms of his responsibilities in his functions, and I'd like to, if I may, read one specific page because I think it has a bearing in connection with the particular section, in which he says: "I have no authority" -- and I'm quoting -- "to in any way intervene in the courts or in the acts or decisions of any persons acting as a solicitor for the Crown in any proc eedings.

In short, I cannot question the Crown Prosecutor's decision to prosecute or not to prosecute, or on how to conduct any proc eedings before a court. There is, however, a distinction where mistakes are made in purely adminstrative matters in the offices of the courts or the purely administrative functions of the Department of the Attorney-General. For instance, provincial jails are administered by the Attorney-General's Department, and I do investigate complaints of prisoners alleging discrimination and injustice.

Incidentally, any letter addressed to the Ombudsman from an inmate of a provincial jail or a patient in a provin cial mental hospital must be forwarded to the Ombudsman unopened." Now the government as yet has not given us an indication of why this was excluded, and I would hope that the First Minister would indicate this, and I would hope that the First Minister would also reconsider , as I would hope the government will, reconsider the introduction of this

section that was eliminated. I have a suspicion that many members of the bar will be very in terested in this, and I have a feeling that it will in fact curtail the ability to have members of the bar who will be asked to act as consultants by the government, who are going to be very con cerned about their recommendations being subject to the purview of an administrator whose terms of references and whose concern will not be that of the solicitor who we asked to give a legal opinion as opposed to someone who will be concerned with the whole administrative proc ess in itself.

I have already indicated to this House and there is a resolution on the Order Paper, or will be on the Order Paper, dealing with the Administrative Practices Act, and I must suggest to the government that , in addition to the Ombudsman Act, if we are really going to give mean ing to the intent of the setting up of the Ombudsman so that in fact there will be someone to whom an individual who is concerned that he has been not handled properly by the administrative procedures of government, that he will be in a position to be able to come and know that his

476 September 5, 1969 (MR . SPIV AK cont•d.) ••.• rights are going to be protected, that it's necessary for the province to enact an Administrative Practices Act, which will detail in a very real and meaningful way the practices that must be adhered to, the formal proceedings that must be adhered to by all ad ministrative bodies in this province.

I think this is necessary because I think whether it is the Liquor Co=ission Board, whether it is any other board that anyone appears before, the in dividual must know that there is a certain procedure that has to be followed, that certain forms have to be followed, and that his rights are protected in this respect, and he will have as much right to complain to the Ombudsman that the form as well as the substance of what has been done have in fact infringed on his rights as an individual.

Now I have one other suggestion and I'm sure this will be debated again this afternoon, and my intention today at this time is not to deal with the TED Report or the Economic Advisory Board of the TED Report, but I've already indicated that I think that the first two cases that the Ombudsman in Manitoba should investigate are Damascus Steel and Family Friendly Farms, and I reiterate tbis again.

I think this is a proper - I reiterate this again - I suggest to you that this is a proper function of the Ombudsman, that his terms of reference deal specifically for this kind of situation, that this matter, which has been before this House for such a long period of time and has been such a subject of dispute, should in fact be handed over to him immediately and he should be given the opportunity to investigate.

He will have the full investigatory power and it woUld seem to me that he could make a determination and a reco=endation which would either support what has taken place, or if the recommendation is against it then the government is at least in a position to take action on the basis of the recommendation.

The Economic Advisory Committee that the Honourable the First Minister has referred to and which is referred to in TED - and I suggest that there•ll be another opportunity later on today to talk about it and I'm not intending to confuse it at this time - was never set up to in fact act in the capacity of that of the Ombudsman, or to be an investigatory body, which is what the Ombudsman would have to do in this, into the specific details and matters of the situations where some people believe that they have a grievance against a Crown corporation that in fact has not been satisfactorily settled, although the matter itself has been to court in one specific case.

So I would suggest to the Honourable First Minister and to the government that they give very serious consideration that the first two cases again be Damascus Steel and Family Friendly Farms. I would suggest as well they they give consideration to putting back into the Act, or introducing back into. the Act,

Section (

e) of 18 which has in fact been eliminated. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I also would like to add a few comments on the Ombudsman Act bill that is before us. After hearing other mem bers speak, some of the things that I had in mind have already been said and therefore I certainly will not dwell on those points. I also join with other memb ers in welcoming the legislation that is before us.

I think it is essential that we have a bill of this type and bring into being a person, or someone who will be able to in vestigate, who has the powers to investigate where people are grieved or wronged. I think the need has come about largely because we find that government today is getting more and more into business, and as a result we find that more grievances are taking place and are come to be ar, and we are advised of as members because our constituents from time to time come to us with their complaints, where they feel they have been wronged.

Probably also there is a need because with the government civil service, the establish ment as it is sometimes referred to, might be getting more autocratic as years go by, and that therefore the need for this, for an Ombudsman, is required.

I do not want to leave the implication here that this is the case here in Manitoba that our civil service is autocratic, but no doubt because of the grievances that we hear about, certainly proper attention is not given to some of the people that should be afforded to them, and I think the proper authority is given under this Act to the Ombudsman, except for a few minor items that I intend to mention here this morning.

I hope when we do appoint an Ombudsman here in Manitoba that he will not be a smoothy; that he will be someone who the people of this province will respect, who we as mem bers will be able to look up to, and who will have the confidence of all mem bers of this House. There are some points and sections that I'm not completely satisfied with - as far as I'm concerned they're not - and I hope they will be clarified to me when we reach the co=ittee stage. One of these is naturally under the exercise of powers under 17. But then, going on to the following

section dealing with restrictions, and I'm not necessarily one to refer to sections, but here we're placing certain restrictions on the Ombudsman as to what matters cannot be

September 5, 1969 477 (MR. FROESE cont'd.) •••• dealt with by him, and we're excluding the Legislature and the courts. Then, we're also referring to arbitrations, and this is an area where I raise a big question mark behind that matter, because I think in some cases there is need for the Ombudsman to look into some of these arbitrations that are made this day and age. Because of the many matters, expropriations and so on, I feel that this area should be opened to the Ombudsman to investigate and find whether people have been wronged in this area.

Naturally there's many other arbitra tions by councils, arbitration boards set up by councils and so on, that deal with varied matters where grievances can creep in, and I think these should be heard, so that as far as arbitrations, and also this matter I think also applies to the matter of tribunals that are also mentioned in the following subsections; I think the same thing applies here, because when we're talking of tribun als, I think quite often you have civil service staff on these tribunals and that decisions can go a certain way as a result, and I feel that these should not be exempt from the investigation of the Ombudsman.

There's also one further matter and that has to do with the matter of appeals. It says "where appeals are provided for, the Ombudsman should not investigate", or to that effect. feel that this also is an area that is open to question, because under the various Acts we have appeals provided for under regulations, and these regulations are being set up by boards. Naturally they have the sanction of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, but I feel that this is also a matter that should be open to the Ombudsman. I dealt with the Fisheries Act the other day. The appeal in that particular Act is to the Minister.

The Minister's made a ruling and later on appeals come in and he's supposed to adjudicate on his own rulings, and I feel that appeals of this type should definitely be open to the Ombudsman to consider, because I think we will find that many complaints and grievances are coming out of these very decisions where proper appeals are not being allowed, and if the appeals are allowed, that because in certain occasions there might be an interest on the part of the party that has to rule on the appeal.

Therefore these are sections that I feel that should be looked into very seriously and reconsidered and I do hope that this matter, when we deal with the bill in Co=ittee, that this will receive its proper attention. The other point has already been raised by the Member for Ste. Rose in connection with the Attorney-General's powers under the Act and I will not dwell on that. I think he made a very able presentation on that part. I have the same concern that he has on that very thing. But then there is one further matter and that is that the Ombudsman shall not be called as a witness.

Maybe this is quite in order but I'm wondering whether under certain circumstances or certain conditions this would not be a good thing to have in there, that he could serve as a witness. Maybe such a clause should be put in so that in certain cases the Lieutenant-Governor-in Council should have power to designate where an Ombudsman could appear as a witness, be cause no doubt he will have investigated matters and he will be knowledgeable of things where he could do a great service in being a witness on such occasions.

I think that there should be room and permission given for the Ombudsman to appear as a witness and probably, as I mentiQned, on the request or on the authority of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. Mr. Speaker, these are but a few of the co=ents that I have to make. In general, I think it's a good bill and I'm sure that we will know better a few years from now as to whether any changes should be made and what changes should be made and I hope that we will always be flexible enough that if we see that changes should be made that they will be made and that the government in office will acquiesce to such changes.

Other than that, Mr. Speaker, I endorse the bill and I do hope that it will turn out to be a success. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR . WALLY JOHANNSON (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Member from The Pas, that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Cor porate Affairs. The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, I adjourned this for my colleague, the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, listening to the speeches in the House I've heard both com ments that this is a good bill and some fears expressed that the bill may in fact be harmful to some legitimate businessmen. In general, I support the bill. I think that by and large the

478 Septeinber 5, 1969 (MR. MOLGAT cont•d. ) •••• proposals in the bill will not harn1 any legitiinate businessinan. I think we Inay have to look at certain sections to insure that they don't because I don't think that that is the intention of the bill.. The intention of the bill is to protect the consUiner whilst at the saine tiDle not Inaking it iinpossible to conduct business in the Province of Manitoba and where there are certain sections that Inay create a hardship I think that we have to look at thein care fully.

It seen1s to Ine in general, however, that the bill really will not be hariilful to legitiDlate businessinen who are conducting a proper business and who are treating their custoiners in the way that responsible businessn1en want to do. There are certain sections which I think we Inay look at and where in1proven1ents Inay be necessary. I note for exan1ple in the

section dealing with direct sellers, and this is cert ainly an area where we have had a great deal of difficulty and where there are Inany fly-by-night operators who should not be in the business . This is recognized I think by both consUiners and legitiDlate business that in Inany cases they are doing iDlproper things that should not be allowed. It doesn't Inean that this applies to all direct sellers. There are Inany direct sellers who are responsible operators, responsible businessinen and who perforn1 a useful function.

But there are son1e which in Iny view are on the verge of being illegal and certainly require control. It appears to Ine, however, that in this new Act which goes further in defining what can and cannot be done that we Inay find son1e

definitions here which are going to be very difficult to apply. I note, for eXainple, a very negative definition of what is a recognized retail store. And if we could in son1e way get that into a positive forn1 and define what it is rather than say what it is not that the bill would be easier to enforce. There are certain sections that I think we should look at carefully as well insofar as the effect of this

section once you actually deal with it. There I.B one in particular on which I see son1e difficulties, and that is that after 75 percent of the payinents have been Inade that ther� is no right of repossessi on. I know what the intent of the

section is and that is to Inake sure that again son1e unscrupulous sellers do not wait until the Inajority of the equity is paid and then proceed to repossess in order to reap Soine benefit. Now none of us want to see that. But is there not another way of doing it rather than saying what we Inight be saying to people who have paid 75 percent - well now you can alinost consider that you •ve stopped your payinents or that you've concluded your payinents because it's going to be very tough for the seller to collect fron1 you if he has to go and get a Court order. Now is this really the right course ?

I think that we can get the saine result by insuring, which I think the Act does now, that if there is a repos session then the seller Inust return to the owner anything over and above the value -;- that is anything over and above the ainount that was actually owed, rather than to say to the buyer well, after you've paid 75 percent, the only way they can enforce payinent is by taking you to Court. Because once again it's the Saine old question of going to Court being an expensive proposition.

I think we have to recognize that every tiDle that we Inake it Inore difficult for business to ex tend credit then -- or to Inake it Inore difficult to collect -- that whatever losses occur , Mr. Speaker, are going to be covered by the consun1ers in the long run. If it becoines iinpossible for sellers to collect their Inoney and there are great losses incurred, then they sin1ply will have no alternative but to raise their interest rates and the balance of the consUiners have to pay for it.

If there are son1e legitiDlate costs they end up by being paid for by the consUiner, or the credit restrictions becoine so tight, so difficult that consUiners are prevented froDl actually proceeding with their purchases. So, I think we should look at this . Again, I agree with the intent but is it going to work out the way that we intend it to be or is it going to be in stead Inore difficult. I know that there will be soine objections fron1 son1e of the sellers regarding the Inatter of no right to sue after seizure. This is a difficult one at all tiDles.

In general, I tend to agree with the law that the seller should have one right or the other but not both. On the other hand, I think we again have to look at what the result is and whether in our endeavours to protect the consUiners , we are not in fact at tiDles once again Inaking it so difficult that son1e consun1ers are not going to be able to get credit extended to thein. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that the bill deserves the support of the House; that when we reach the coininittee stage we should invite as wide representation as possible fron1 both business and consUiners to Inake sure that the final drafting of the Act will in fact achieve what we want, and that is to protect the consUiner but not at the saine tiine to Inake the lin1itation such that con suiners will not be able to obtain credit or that the rates are going to be such that it leaves then1 out. But in general I support the bill. I think we can Inake those ainendDlents at the coDlDlittee stage.

�---�--� ----�----�-----�-----�--------�---- 1 September 5, 1969 479 :MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: I think the honourable member would be closing debate. I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, that debate be adjourned. :MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (Minister of Finance)(St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Minister' of Tourism and Recreation, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. :MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Elmwood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAillMAN: We're dealing with the Department of Tourism and Recreation, Page 25. Resolution No. 92 1 (a). The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the Honourable Minister for his brief statement when he introduced his estimates.

I know he's new in that position and of only one month, and I want to wish him quite well in his department. So I will not be too critical at this time but probably when the next Session comes around I'm sure that we'll have much more to say. If we don't agree with many of the things that he is doing we'll be critical in that respect. But there isn't much new that we can say at this time because it's the same estimates that were presented to this House during the last session and there was a full debate and full discussion during that time, so my comments are going to be very brief. Mr.

Chairman, I think there is very few people that realize the vital importance that tourism can bring prosperity to this province. I think our tourist industry provides many jobs and it makes possible thousands of small family businesses in this province. I think it also provides huge markets for Canadian goods and all sorts of manufactured items such as souvenirs that are produced not only here in this province but produced probably right across Canada, and particularly eastern Canada, which this industry is using all the time. So I feel that the govern ment must give this industry its fullest attention.

I would not be wrong in saying that this in dustry at the present time is really in this province in its infancy. So I feel that the government must, and should, immediately take stock of our full travel facilities, our travel industry to determine its capacity and to be able to chart its future course. Mr. Chairman, I know that this will require quite extensive research if the government is going to make the proper contribution to the tourist industry that it should.

In some of the other provinces this is probably one of the biggest revenue-bearing industries that they have -and, of course, I'm referring to the Province of British Columbia. This may not be the case in Manitoba but I think we have great potential in here as far as the tourist industry is concerned.

I feel that active tourist promotion programs should be combined with the calendar of our centenary next year because there'll be many programs planned in many parts of our province and perhaps the Minister can look into this that can we combine our programs with our centenary celebrations in many parts of the province and in many centres, larger centres in the Province of Manitoba. I think this will sort of produce probably an upsurge in our tourist industry to some extent. Mr. Chairman, the other day the Honourable Minister announced in this House about the new park that will be developed at Hecla Island.

I certainly agree with this program but I am somewhat concerned because for the last few years we did have information that there will be another federal park established in the Province of Manitoba. I wonder in this particular in stance what has happened, that instead of a federal park there's a combination establishing a federal park or a provincial park with federal money which the province will have to maintain, will have to pay the cost for. Does this mean that the Federal Government will not proceed to establish another federal park in the province ?

I think it's a very important point because if this is the case, I wonder if the government and the Minister has made as good a deal as perhaps we would have still getting the grants to establish the provincial park at Hecla and have to pursue the Federal Government to go ahead with their plans to establish another federal park in this province.

I know that the money has been used from the FRED program in this instance and I'm sure that the Minister could have probably made just as good a deal if the province would have undertaken to develop this park and have the Federal Government develop another park, a federal park in this province. I hope that he will be able to probably give some answers in this respect.

480 September 5, 1969 (MR. PATRICK cont'd. ) Mr. Chairman, I feel that the responsibility is not totally of the government alone when you •re talking about tourist industry. I think it also should be the responsibility of not only the members here but particularly the municipal people, the travel associations and the Chamber of Commerces across the Province of Manitoba, because I think the responsibility should be on everyone to promote tourism in this provinc e.

I feel that we should develop sales ads or talks around points of interest in this provinc e, because the first thing that the tourist is going to ask is what is there to see and I think that Manitoba must have many things that many tourist people want to see. I know that there are many attractions deserving our visitors to investigate, to see, and I think this is the kind of promotion that we should be at the present time trying to be doing. I also feel that it should be possible for tourists to see many of our historic sites, churches and so on. St. Boniface, for example, has many points of historic lore.

I feel that Manitoba is somewhat in a fortunate position in this historical information be cause it was the first provinc e, or the centr al province in the settlement of Western Cana da. Fo r example, all your movement westward had to take place through Winnipeg, and as a result there are many examples. For instanc e, the record of the buffalo hunts in 1840; the hunters on the Red River carts - this could be dramatized to a certain extent, and I certainly think this has great value and is a great selling point to many of our tourists. It may be also worthwhile, Mr.

Speaker , if even the Manitobans themselves try to learn the story of Manitoba, because, as I say, it is cert ainly rich in history in the development of this coun try. I think the most important thing that we have in this provinc e, Mr.

Chairman, is the people, beca use Manitobans by nature are most friendly and probably more hospitable than any other provinc e in Canada, and from your tourist information that has been secured by the de partment , I understand that this has been proven, and most of your tourists from across the line have indicated that they do find our provinc e a very friendly province, with friendly people, and I think this is most encouraging as far as the tourist industry is concerned. So I feel that the tourist industry in this province can flourish but I think it must receive very close attention from this government. Mr.

Chairman, I feel that tourist information centres should be established in larger centr es, perhaps to the south in places like Minneapolis and Chicago, where attractions that should be publicized can be advertised and publicized of certain attractions that the province has to offer. I know that at the present time we have good facilities as far aS'" our acc ommodation for your camper trailer sites are concerned.

A few years back we probably did not have the facil ities but now your Birds Hill Pa rk can accommodate almost 5, 000 camper trailers and this in itself, not too many cities either in Canada or the United States can offer this kind of accom modation. Almost a household item today is a camper trailer.

You can drive by many ho uses on any street and you 111 find that almost every second or third house has a small camper trailer , so this has become a mode of travel in the last few years and I feel that the only way that the people can properly utilize that type of transportation is if they have a place to park, and they, at the present time, can have parking facilities.

In a city as large as Winnipeg, where you have half a million people, you only have to drive 15 miles from the city and you have all kinds of parking accommodation, and I think this is probably one of the most important points that we can use, that we can offer unlimited facilities as far as parking is concerned for your camper trailers. So I would feel that perhaps in our broch ures and other materials in the centres that we establish, and perhaps in some of the larger cities in eastern Canada, as well as in the United States, that this information should be relayed to the people that are travel tourists.

I perhaps wonder if we have made proper use of our travel agencies in the City of Winnipeg. I feel that these are the people that at all times are in contact with the tourists coming from out of town , and I would like to see that the government supply tourist agencies in this city all the material and the kind of material that is required by our tourist agencies, beca use these are the people that are doing probably as great a selling job as the government itself.

So I feel that all your travel agencies in this province and in the Metropolitan City of Winnipeg should have material that would be of interest to your tourists coming in, interest of acc ommodation as far as trailer parks are concerned, and so on. So I hope that the government will show some leadership in this department and provide that type of material and information to our travel agencies in this provinc e.

September 5, 19 69 481 (MR, PATRICK cont1d. ) I know that previously we have talked about such things as the Morris Fair and your Trout Festival, your Trappers Festival and so on, and I wonder if the province is supporting these things to the extent that they should. I know that a few years back, perhaps we've had more publicity as far as The Pas Trappers Festival or the Flin Flon Trout Festival than I've seen in the last few years.

It seems that publicity, at least in the papers, has been more than what we've seen in the last couple of years, and this is an area that certainly has an appeal to many tourists from across the line , from the other provinces , and I think that this should be probably promoted in a larger way to a greater extent that we have been doing up to the prese nt time, be cause we certa inly have a good product to sell as far as your Trout Festival , when almost at every festival that you have somebody catches a 35 or a 40 or a 50-p ound tr out, and I think the publicity from this alone , that we should create should be to a greater extent than we are doing at the pres ent time.

Similarly, with our Trappers Festival, I understand it's only one or two of its kind in this country, and are we getting the proper publicity and are we doing the proper promotion that we should be doing in this field ? So perhaps these are a few of the points that the honourable minister can undertake in trying to promote tourism, and I feel every member of this Hous e, as well as your municipal ities, should undertake to promote just a little more than we have usually done for our Centen nial year, which will be starting in a few months. Mr.

Chairman, I also wish to raise a point , and that's concerning some of the permanent trailer sites in the Whiteshell , and I'm of course referring to such places as Falcon Lake, West Hawk and Brereton and the rest of the areas in ther e. I understand that there are, at the prese nt , in the neighbourhood of 1, 000 permanent home or trailer sites. Many of these trailers, I would not be wrong to say, are valued anywhere between six and probably twelve and fifteen thousand dollars.

They're 50 and 60 footers that the people took permits out for three years, and I understand have extended their permits to two more years for five years; they have done to the extent that they have made their lots very attractive , have planted trees and shrubberies and flowers, and probably many of them, have built canopies adjacent to their trailers, and they 're very large - almost SUDlDler homes.

And the great. concern by the Association at the pres ent time is that there is speculation, and I think some indication from the department at the prese nt time, that these people will have to move from these sites because they want to call these sites a temporary site where you can only take it for a year or two years.

I think it would be a great mistake not to extend the permanent sites to thes e people for another five years, or as long as they want to, because they have expended a considerable amount of money on their trailer sites and on their trailers, or on their mobile homes , whatever you want to call them. They have to pay, I believe it's $100. 00 rent. In case you sell your trailer , even if it's got two more months to go in that particular year , the new owner has to pay another hundred dollars for his permit, even for a part-time. The second po int , they cannot rent these trailers to a third party.

You cann ot put a tent on them. It's a very sort of a strict operation and I agree with that . I think tha t's what's making our trailer sites very attractive sites , but I feel that these are the people that are probably bringing much more revenue to that park, who are local Manitoba people , than probably somebody that's travelling through from another province and will stay for one night or two nights .

I think if there is a shortage of temporary trailer sites , ther e's a lot of ground up ther e so there's no reason that each year that the government probably will make 10 or 15 more available sites for the temporary type of accommodation. But I feel that at the prese nt time the 1, 000 or 1, 200 sites that we have now, who have people who have trailers on them, I don't believe that we should be trying to ask them to leave and move out, because I think they have invested too much money.

This has been brought to me quite strongly and I feel that it would be wrong for the department or the minister to say, well no , these are temporary sites. I feel if we need more temporary sites let•s develop them, but I feel at the present time the people in these sites have too big of an investment to be asked to leave and move out, and I know for many of them it would be quite difficult to do. Mr. Chairman, I just have a few brief remarks as far as tourism and recreation is con cerned.

The last annual report on tourism and recreation, I feel that recreation co=issions that are established in many rural municipalit ies has been the kind of prog ram that we're moving in the right direction, and I feel that where co=issions in the small towns - where co=is sions have been established, ther e is some form of recreational program. But the recreation

482 September 5, 1969 (MR. PATRICK cont•d. ), ••• commissions have only been established in only a few - perhaps, I don't know, 50 or 40 towns or municipalities, and perhaps the minister can tell us. But what about the other hundred or couple of hundred communities that there is no commissions establish ed because probably the community is too small and has no recreation facilities, or no recrea tion direction as such ?

I would like to recommend to the Minister, perhaps when they hold their summer recreation schools , or summer - I understand some of these small towns can hire a recreation director for the summer for two weeks or six weeks with some assistance from the government, and can it not be possible that many of these small centres and small communities would be able to hire recreational directors for six weeks with assistance from the government?

I feel that the director in the six weeks' time perhaps can do much good in a small community where he can plan their summer program for not only young people but, as well, for older people, the type of programs that we should have as far as recreation is concerned. And I feel in only six weeks' time perhaps this would be great assistance to a small community in a small town, with the cost shared between the government and the municipality.

I know it is done on some limited basis but it's mostly done in areas where there are commissions at the present time established, but there are many centres, as I have mentioned, where there are no com missions established. I think that because of more leisure time we will have to provide much more recreation facili ties than we have at the present time, and you will need a well-planned program for physi cal education that will include probably a variety of things, not only such things as playground and equipment and so on, but we have, I think, to provide many other programs for older people as well.

I feel that perhaps we can do much more as far as your recreational facilities are con cerned, and I would believe that in many areas that we're moving in that direction, but I still have complaints even in our community that there isn't suff icient playground facilities.

In some instances - I may be wrong, but the complaints have come to me that the children are asked to not work during the summer holidays or play on the school grounds, and I haven't investigated fully but I feel that your school grounds or school parks should be fully utilized and there's no reason why we can't use our school grounds during the summer holidays. It was just the other day that it's been brought to my attention, that in one area the police came and they said, well, you can't play on the school grounds.

Well, I cannot see why they can't and I think it's wrong if this is the instruction that the school board is giving to your local authorities not to use this school as a playground. So I think that we should look at this more realistically and perhaps allow, not only school grounds but also school gymnasiums , not only for children and school people, but also your adult folk as well. The other point that I would like to make ..•. HON. AL. MACKLING (Attorney-General)(St. James) : Would the honourable member permit a question ? MR. P A TRICK: Yes. MR.

MACKLING: You made specific reference to a problem in an area where children had been utilizing a school ground and been in terrupted by the police advising them that they were not to use it. Can you at least give us some specif ics ? MR. PATRICK: I will not give any specifics at this time, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, but I would probably see him after because I would like to investigate my, you know, complaint, but it has happened in our city and in the west side of St. James-Assiniboia, so this came to my attention. I've had phone calls to that effect. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, it was on my assumption that it must have been of intimate knowledge with the honourable member, but I think that there should be some speci fics given, otherwise everyone falls under the cloud, MR. PATRICK: Well I can -- I didn't say all, I just said in area:s and I said it's happened, and I'll give you the school. It's the Voyageur school grounds, so if it means this is the info rma tion you want, this is what it is. The other point, Mr.

Chairman, that I wish to make is if we are concerned about physical fit ness we should really -- where the guidance is needed and where we should influenc e, is right at the school age in most of our schools, because this is where the children will learn many of the traits and will probably be able to carry them out later on in adult life . lt' s pretty difficult to start any recreational or physical activity when you're up in age, so I think that emphasis should be placed in the schools. The problem is in the present time that in many of our schools

September 5, 19 69 483 (MR. PATRICK con t•d. ) ....• that we're going too much as far aa the competitive side of the sport is concerned, be it basketball or softball, it seems there's only so many students can participate in it. I think that if somehow we can have our programs where everyone can participate, not only the ones that are probably much superior as far as athletes are concerned, but if everyone can participate.

I think that's the type of a program I would like to see that we develop in our schools early in life so these people when they grow up and grow to adult life can carry on and be able to do some physical fitness training on their own or at their leisure time, because we will have much more leisure time as time goes on with your shorter working hours and people will demand much more recreational facilities and more recreation instruc tions. So these are a few of the points that I would like to make at this time, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps I'll think of some other points to bring up at this time. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. BEARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to enter into this portion of the debate for a short time. I do recall the past member for Neepawa-Gladstone, Mr. Shoemaker, when he used to sing the little song of "Linger longer and spend more money ," and I think he was very right when he used to co=ent on the number of people that rushed through Manitoba on the Trans-Canada Highway and didn't pause long enough to spend money.

I of course point out to you that if you want them to linger longer then let's get them up into northern Manitoba where they can spend more money and it takes longer to come and go.

I think there should be an emphasis from the Tourism Branch on both the C.N .R . and the Hudson Bay route excursion trips which I'm sure the Minister is quite acquainted with, particularly on the C.N .R . ones because of the emphasis that was put on by Dauphin in enter taining them in their horticultural shows; The Pas and the other areas such as Thompson who have gone all out to entertain these people and they keep coming back in larger numbers and spending much much more money in Manitoba, and certainly supporting the Canadian National Railway and indirectly the Hudson Bay Route Association, in fact.

Churchill of course indi cates even the tourists that go into the Eskimo villlage camp prove that there's over 3, 500 signing in just to go in to buy some type of Eskimo carving - and this certainly doesn't indicate all the people that get up even as far as Churchill. But before we get into that part of it, I would like to get into the real difficulty of tourism in northern Manitoba, and that is the problem of providing acco=odation.

The department has set up to five star type of acco=odation which they feel is what the American tourists require, is what the demands of the people require- and certainly maybe it is in large centres when they come to Winnipeg, etcetera, and they're looking for that type of accommodation. But, Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that anybody in northern Manitoba, or central northern Manitoba, has ever started off a tourist acco=odation with 150 or 200, 000 dollar investment and really made a good thing out of it.

They have started small and they have worked up, and this is what is necessary if we're going to open up more and more tourist camps in the north, because every year I hear about people talking about wilderness areas. We have spent mil lions of dollars on Bird's Hill to provide wilderness areas for the City of Winnipeg so that you can drive out within a few minutes on a four-lane highway into a wilderness area -- four-lane paved highway, I might state. This is wonderful. We have to cater to half a million people recognize there are half a million people live in this area.

I would rather have seen it a paved two-lane highway then we could have opened up some more roads into tourist resort areas in the north. But getting back to the point, I think that some recognition of the fact that it is necessary to provide tourist acco=odation in respect to what the tourist wants .

I think this is a very important policy because many people in large cities throughout the States and throughout Canada want to get away from telephone service, they want to get away from the pressures of bad news every day, they want to get away from TV, they want to get away completely from -- lost, is the right word -- they want to get lost, and they want to live as they had thought about as a boy, having a canoe and going out and taking a trip and letting their imagination run away with themselves and say, maybe this is a spot where no white man has been before.

And I think probably the Indian is the best person to take you there. If we could encourage both acco=odation in respect to what the tourist wants , and wants to pay for; and secondly, the type of vacation that he wants, because certainly when we go on a vacation we want to go to a place where we can have the opposite to what we're used to all year round in many cases. Sometimes people go to France and they complain they can't get

484 September 5, 19 69 (MR. BEARD cont•d.) . the steaks that they're used to in the States. Well, these people should stay at home. But when we look at tourism in the north, we envision different things: People being able to take guided canoe trips, put themselves in the hands of Indians and say my family - and this includes junior and mother and daughter and all the rest of them - get into a can�e and they go out into the wilderness and they're taking a trip where the Indian looks after them.

They eat what he prepares for them , they boil tea over an open fire, they pitch a tent somewhere along the river where the Indian decides he wants to stop and boil tea every two or three hours maybe, or whether he decides they're going to stay there overnight; but put themselves in the hands of these people who have lived under this type of heritage and character for hundreds of years and they can go back and say, "I lived like an Indian and it was a pretty good life." I think the Indians of course should be involved in this , and I point out a particularly new aspect which I ran across fortunately at Brochet where -- the Department of Transport are getting out of Brochet within a year I'm told, and they're leaving behind buildings that are just perfect for acco=odation of tourists, and here would be a first I suppose for almost all of Canada and certainly first for Manitoba, where Indian people could say to tourists , come and live in our reservation, and a person could go back to New York or Chicago or wherever it is , and you can imagine them saying, "I went up and lived with the India ns, I was actually on a reservation, and the Chief took me out fishing" - took him up to Nagalini maybe and caught some big trout, and they caught so many they'd have to put them back in the water and catch others.

Maybe they could even go and shoot a cariboo - at an additional cost - just like we had in the whal ing, where they would shoot the cariboo, be able to take the head home maybe and give the skin and the meat to the Indians, and this would provide a new type of approach to tourism, because all of the north is new, it is new to everybody that hasn't felt that type of living.

Because when you go to Thompson or you take quick business trips to Gillam or Churchill, Lynn Lake or Flin Flon, The Pa s, you're in amongst civilizati on - but when you get out on to these areas I think that you'll find that there are many ways, Mr. Chairman, where people could find a relief from the pressures of living. And this is what they're looking for; this is why we have vacations every year ; this is why unions are negotiating for longer vacations, because they want to get away from the pressures of working, the pressures of living, they want to see something new.

And why should they go to Europe to see something old when they can come to northern Manitoba and see something new. I again start to come back to Ch urchill, I look at history, and history is not only in its making at Churchill as far as the Research Rocket Centre is concerned, but Churchill is a first again, it is the first settlement in the whole of western Canada, and in this area is an abundance of history that isn't recognized by most people in Manitoba.

It isn't advertised enough I don•t .think, and the impact of seeing the old and the new, the poverty, the rich, are all things that people I'm sure would get very involved in if they could just get up there and see it and live it and be able to feel it and touch it, and they would then be able to go back with a different concept of life itself I suppose, they'd go back refreshed. I would then go on and say that fly-in camps I think are very important to the tourist industry.

I believe that these people should be able to charter planes into lakes; in fact should be openly encouraged to fly into these lake areas , pitch a tent and do their fishing, do their vaca tioning and come home. Now I know that your bureaucracy is going to say, now just a minute, we don't want to have to have search and rescue planes out all over northern Manitoba looking for these people; but which comes first, the cart or the horse ? I think that people should be able to do these things.

They're doing it anyway, so let•s make it legal and let's get down to making it easier to police this typ e of interest in the north. And then I go to York Factory. My what a marvellous thing this is in history. Not too many people have been there. Only a short distance away from there you can sit and envision where 17 or 18 battles had been fought, actual battles. You can stand on the side of the bank, in fact you can dig into the bank and dig out cannon balls. -- (Interjection) -- They weren't very good shooters in those days, I guess - I don't know. Anyway, they're there, they're there by the hundreds.

You can go to a cemetery where the cannon balls were used on a cross to emphasize the importance of the person or person or to help decorate the cross where the cemeteries are. When you get there you get into a feeling that here you are where history starts. And this is wonderful; it's a wonderful feeling. And you know, the winter isn't too bad either. But this is also a wonderful resort area in that the fishing is tremendous. Now I

September 5, 19 69 485 (MR. BEARD cont' d. ) ..... know, Mr. Chairman, you always say we no rtherners come down and tell you about how you can cast a line and catch a fish every time, and they get bigger and bigger, yes, as we talk about them. But there is an abun danc e of fish, of trout. I've seen them almost as red as our flags are that are in beside the Speaker's chair. This is living, this is really living , you can catch it and throw it in the frying pan and you got a ready-cooked meal right away. I've also been there in the shooting where in two or three days, four days, I've seen over a million geese.

They're fly ing at maybe 25 feet high, some of them are flying a thousand feet . This is a flyway which is going to be disturbed unfortunately through oil ex ploration, but during this period if it's going to contin ue, Mr. Chairman, I think that some regulation must be placed on it.

Perhaps, and I've suggested this befor e, but a new type of license, maybe it would cost you $50 to go there and shoot, but today they're going in and shooting and they are filleting their geese, ju st as you would a fish, they're filling a dunna ge bag full of maybe 100 geese and taking off and flying out and just shooting geese for the sake of shooting them and believe me you can lay on your back and shoot them if you want .

But history again, close to the Kaskatarnagan River where the Metis, the old York boat is covered with small beans and peas, probably two or three inches high, the pods are a quarter of an inch long, the peas are probably the size of a head, but they're minatu re peas ; and where did they come from -- I suppose the dried peas and beans that the early explorers left behind , but it spread throughout the whole area. The moss in those areas are colored every color of the rainbow. You think of it as dirty green stuff but up there you'll find that all the colors are embossed in this moss.

It's a wonderful area, I think it could encour age people to go up . It should be carefully confin ed, because I'm sure the Min ister, our Centennial Minister, will be looking at it in respect to its historic value for the fu ture. I underst and the university is up there now carefully taking not es of what is there. In fact , talking to one of the professors the other day, he tells me they have mounds of artifacts and they've only worked this summer on it. So I expect to see great results from that eff ort.

But these are places where history started and these are places where I think the people would like to go because men are at heart little boys. They buy somebody, their boy, a train for Christmas and they won't let him play with it because they're too busy playing with it themselves, and so they want to revert back. But in getting back closer to home, the Attorney- Gen eral, who is in terested in the Member for St.

Jarnes' (or Assini boia is it) remarks in respect to playgrounds , school play grounds not being available to the local residen ts, I would point out that Pikwitonei is another spot where the children were chased off during the summer period and not allowed to use it as a recreation area, and this was because of the diffe rence between the school area and -- (In ter je ction) -- I'll give it to you after -- the school area board and the communi ty. It's P i k w i t o n e i.

I think we should touch on Thompson area, Lynn Lake area, but particularly on the Thompson area where it is a growth centre and we have not been able to keep up with the needs of the people in respect to resorts or recreation areas , and the Member for Assiniboia did strike on a very important point , and that is that people are using trailers to get around in and if they can get over, Mr.

Chairman, if they can get over that 200 miles of gravel road to Thompson, they have no place to park their trailer when they get there, with the required facilit ies, and I know that you are doing something about it now but I think that maybe careful consideration should be given to Pa int Lake area, the Setting Lake area, and some of those others which again your Department was reluctant to open up because they said that they didn't want to have to go to the bother and expense of policing or servicing these areas , but they're won derful areas and the people want to use them and I think , after all, people come first and we have to provide these areas for them .

If it costs them money , well then they've got to learn they have to pay for what they ask for , and I suppose we as politicians have to carry that message back to them too. But I think you've done a reasonably good job in the past in Lynn Lake except, again, that road out there always seems to get a beating to their resort areas , and I speak with tongue in mouth on this type of thing because I know that the people of Lynn Lake are looking anxiously forward to their new highway and to the new areas of tourism that will open up because of the new Lynn Lake Highway.

And of course they will be looking, all of Winni peg will be looking to the new areas , including Mayor Juba, he 's looking to the open ing of No. 6 Highway so that he can get up , he says, and enj oy the central part of Manitoba

486 September 5, 19 69 (:MR. BEARD cont•d. ) .•..• which has never been explored by tourists, etc. , and probably never been exploited, I suppose.

I did happen to listen - again the Member for Assiniboia touched on it - but I was at a service club meeting the other day and the main speaker spoke on encouraging older people to participate in recreation services, not only because they were retiring earlier, they had longer periods off during the week or during the year, but because they could be of service themselves to helping the young people, to get out and coach them, and he said this was one that they were hoping to reach in and to try and encourage the men and women who were retir ing, rather than crawling into a shell, of getting out and being the coaches and learning some thing new and helping the children, because the problems in your community centres, as I understand, are that they don't have enough coaches, they don't have enough managers; and if you're looking for somebody, then I suppose you would look at the man that's been active all his life.

He's retired; he finds he has nothing to do; then maybe you could encourage and work with the university directors to encourage these people to become more active in helping children help themselves. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. :MR. J AMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, it is not my purpose to delay the proceedings but Tather just to bring forward a few items that I'd like the Minister to take notice of, if he would . First of all, I'd like to congratulate him on his being assigned this very important portfolio and wish him every success .

My purpose in rising, Mr. Chairman, is merely to bring to the attention of the Minister a few items at Wellman Lake in Duck Moun tain Provincial Park. I realize that we're discussing the estimates that were discussed earlier in the year, and that he is probably tied in for any extra expenditures, but I would remind him that Wellman Lake is developing into a wonderful resort area, and over the years the American tourists are becoming accustomed to coming up there year by year and enjoy it very very much.

Unfortunately, a few years ago, a cyclone hit that particular area and had it been a half a mile one way or a half a mile the other way, all would have been well. However, progress is being made and I would appeal to the Minister to do what he could to intensify those efforts with a view to putting in some young trees, quick growing trees, that would give the shade that is so much desired at such a spot.

As the Minister probably knows, we were successful in getting Hydro into that area and this cyclone that I'm speaking of has had a tendency to retard the development of Wellman Lake, which I feel is rather a pity, but I would hope that the Department would continue its interest in that area because as he knows , it is part of quite a long string of lakes in that beautiful park. We have, of course, Baldy Mountain close by, which is the highest point in the province, and visitors are directed to Baldy Mountain, and of course when they get there there's very little they can do.

They see a lookout tower but that is confined to forestry activities, and I wonder if the Minister would not take into consideration the developing of a suitable roadway up to Baldy Mountain, which shouldn't be too expensive, and also the installation of a lookout tower for our visitors and certainly the residents of that area.

There's a beautiful view from high up, and expense-wise I would remind him that we have that Cache Lake detention area in which prisoners from Headingley are up there, and the use of that labour would have some tendency to make an economical effort, and I can assure him it would be very well received. With those few remarks, Mr. Chairman, I take my seat. :MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. :MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Chairman, I would first like to join the other.s in wishing the new Minister well in his new position.

I think the way he delivered his message last night to me spelled - there was some enthusiasm in what he presented, and I think this is perhaps the key to our whole tourism attitude. I was just thinking last night, if we can take the attitude the Minister took in presenting his message, I think this is the key to a great new industry, Tourism. I don't intend at this time to say much about recreation.

I feel the Minister is new and the government is new, and perhaps we have chewed some of the things through in the original estimates of last May or before that, but I'd like to just leave a few words of encouragement as far as this Department is concerned. I think it can become one of the bigger things for Manitoba. I'm sure all the members in this Legislature are convinced that it can be. If we can develop this enthusiasm for things -- I realize, Mr. Chairman, that this government will have to be the guide for people. The Honourable Member for Churchill spoke of possibly involving our

�-·�-� ----·----· ---------------------------------------- ' September 5, 1969 487 (MR. BARKMAN cont• d. ) . . . . . older people more. I agree with him , and I think we must involve our municipalities more. I attended a regional meeting last summer and I thought the attitude was presented correctly insofar as developing enthusiasm. There are so many people ready to help in this field if this government is willing to give them guidance, and I think the Manitoba people are known for their hospital,ity.

We have a great asset there, and perhaps if the Minister is willing to show some guidance in showing our people, our businesses, our white collar people, our blue-collar people and the rest of them, what possibly our duty is to help in making this tourist feel at home. I like to think of a tourist as something like the automobile business. We're not really happy in selling a man an automobile. We are happy to do this, but we're much happier to sell him the third or fourth automobile, and I think the same can apply as far as our tourists are concerned.

If we, as Manitobans, react right and show the kind of hospitality that our people are capable of showing, I believe this alone will create enthusiasm, and I can see that perhaps this is only the beginning of your career as Minister of this Department. I can see , though, that while perhaps not too much should be said at this time, but I am sure I can sug gest to the Honourable Minister that his next estimates, the 1970 or 1971, will be upon him so soon that immediately we must begin to try and show and develop this enthusiasm amongst the people of Manitoba.

And I can't think of a better year than 1970, loaded with visitors that will come here naturally because of former citizens of Manitoba, and I think this is the year where we can really start off with a bang and keep on getting these tourists back. I couldn•t help but think, when the Honourable Member for Churchill started reminiscing, or talking of his constituency, and I' ve had the honour of being through parts of it and I agree with him that I'm sure that all of us in this Assembly have many reasons and would like to reminisce on some of the things in our own constituencies.

I, for one, repres enting a new constituency now, we have so many things in the constituency of La Verendrye. Just thinking back to last Monday, the Mennonites had a pioneer day. Around 6, 000 or 7, 000 people attended that one day and enjoyed themselves. I can think of the strawberry industry in the Hadashville area, and of course we have perhaps maybe more established recreational centres than some other constituencies do. The by now famous Falcon Beach happens to be in my new constitu ency and I think here you see enthusiasm already has been developed to some extent.

But I think there are great potentials, for example, at Falcon Beach. Take like the winter sport of skiing. I believe 1, 500 to 1, 800 people at times over a weekend visit, but conditions are just a little bit remote with a tow rope. Maybe improvements could be made. I'm not suggesting that we should put in a chair lift. I don't think this would be feasible at this time. Perhaps maybe the so-called -- I think it's called a T-bar -- we could possibly install one of those in there. We'd possibly have 2, 000 or 3, 000 people over there on one weekend.

And I think that the lake shore could be extended or could be developed further. There seemed to be inflated prices as far as cabins and so on are concerned. While we expect somewhat inflated prices in a pop.ular resort area like this, perhaps if it was extended a little further, leave alone eventu ally maybe make a road through from Shoal Lake to Falcon Beach. I do not wish to just talk of my constituency. I'm sure that all of you here have many things to say and I do not wish to hold up this committee on one constituency alone.

But I think it is the duty of this government to show guidance in respect to educating our own people first so that we do the right thing when these tourists arrive, leave alone the advertising that you're going to do in other countries, and possibly we should do better advertising. You say we have an increase of 22 percent, I believe you mentioned last night, over the year previous. I'm not going to say that it is all to the credit of this government nor all to the credit of the former government.

I think these things, if they're worked at, we'd possibly even have the right political ingredients in this province that we could talk about to tourists. I'm just thinking back about twelve, fourteen years when we used to have a good, old-fashioned, economical government, then the fast-spending years of the last ten years or so of the government to the right, now the so-ca lled Socialist government, that the three of them, surely three ingredients should make a good recipe-for inviting more tourists over here, leave alone the highlights of the last year's election. But I am serious, Mr.

Chairman, that with the kind of hospitality our people in Manitoba are used to showing people - and we've seen it; I know a lot of you travel a lot and I've had the honour of travelling quite a bit - there is something that we possess, a natural possession. But if this government can guide these people, we'l l get our tourists back, I'm sure, and we'l l

488 September 5, 1969 (MR. BARKMAN cont'd. ) . . . . . have many more. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR . FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to con gratulate the Minister on his appointment and on his statements last night that he made about tourism and recreation. Unlike the Member from La Verendrye, I am not going to speak about tourism; I'd like to mention just a couple of points about recreation. I believe everything that has been said about tourism and how important it is to this province.

In the constituency I am in, which I mentioned in my previous speech, we probably have one of the best recreation setups, we believe, in the Province of Manitoba. And I mi ght say again, this is under the chairmanship of the Honourable Attorney-General in our city at the present time, and I've had the privilege of working with him on it. I would like to say we have had terrific support from the Community Services Branch of your department, and I know we will continue to have. But there is one area of recreation that is really becoming a concern to all the cities and municipalities in this province.

We find that we, through our community clubs, can take care of the younger people. You'll find that this comes to the age of 12 or 13, and we have terrific programs for them, and they are well, as I said, taken care of. But we are finding, and I know other municipalities are finding, that the area from about 14, 15 to 18 is becoming, well is becoming -- it is a neglected area for boys and girls in this age. We are finding that they go to the community clubs and at the age of 14 or 15 they start to feel a little more adult and what have you, and they don't enjoy the community club where all the little people are.

We find also that there are men in the community running baseball teams, running hockey teams, things of this nature, and doing it in many cases out of their own pocket and having a very hard time collecting money for the support of these teams because people are paying through the city for the support of the community clubs and recreation. I would only say, Mr. Minister, that the problem here I know is a fact, and I would say that it will be brought to your attention but I'd just like to bring it forward. We have people coming to us all the time for donations, "Can you help us out ? We've got a ball team.

We've got 45 children, or boys and girls; we're doing our best; we're keeping them off the street; we're doing a service to the community." And I might say that we are having a hard time finding some way to support these. We have found a way, by setting aside a certain amount of money, that we wonld help them. For each person that they are working with, we would be able to give them so much money. In fact, the other night we were able to give a donation to a club that is not entirely in our area but the team is helping boys from our area and another area close to us. I would only say, Mr.

Minister - I'd like to finish up by saying this: The problem of the age group from 14 to 15 to 18 is very crucial. The cities and municipalities can help us but we will need some help to help these people.

There are a lot of people who are willing to work with these boys and girls, but they're finding it hard financially, and I think that's a very serious part of the recreation program, not only in the Greater Winnipeg area - it is a prob lem there; I know in the country they have sometimes more ball teams and they can get closer to them than we can in the city, but the municipalities and cities at the present time are, you might say being plagued.

We go through a year and I'm sure we have at least 10 or 12 re quests from men and women who are trying their hardest to do something to keep these boys and girls active, and I would say that that is something that should be seriously considered and I know you'll be looking at it. Thank you very much. MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. BUD SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Chairman, I would just like to add one or two words to the debate at this point.

I would like to compliment the Minister on the assumption of his portfolio , on the presentation of his estimates , and on the manner in which he has begun the discharge of his responsibilities in the House and in the department, whose functions of which now are in his charge. I was interested in the figures on the estimates for the Department of Tourism and Recreation, which indicate that there is no change in the estimates as originally drafted and prepared by the previous administration, and in the Minister's reassurance that the estimates are the same as those prepared by the previous administration.

However, the question still remains as to whether the spending program is precisely the same as that which was antici pated, programmed by the previous administration, whether the priorities in spending are

September 5, 1969 489 (MR. SHERMAN cont'd. ) . . . . . preci sely the same. The Minister's desk-mate, the Honourable Minister of Transportation, has in dicated that there has been a change in the pri orities in the program that the Transportation Department contempla tes for the coming months , and therefore I would be interested in learning at first-hand from the Minister of Tourism and Recr eation whether there is any change in emphasis , change in priority in the program that his department envisages, even though the actual estimates, the actual spending projections are the same as they previously were.

I think that other members of the committee have co=ented fully and adequately on the prais eworthiness of the initiatives in the field of tourism and recr eation that are being under taken by the government, and I don't intend to enter into any lengthy discourse on that subject, but I would like to add my endorsement of all initiatives that are being undertaken by the government, by the Minister, in tourism and recr eation.

I would also like to remind him and all members of the committee, of the directions outlined in the TED Report for tourism and recr eation, and just reiterate for the record some of the emphasis contained therein.

The TED Report stated unequivocally that tourism has the potential to be the fastest growing industry in Manitoba, and I'm sure that in his apprec iation of this fact of life in our province, the Minister intends to make certain that it is a fast-growing industry, if not the fastest-growing; that it is an industry that will grow as fast as he can possi bly enable it to do during the time of his stewardship. I would ask him to keep in mind, though, some of the other directions and suggestions proposed in the TED Report.

I appreciate that he has a pro gram of priorities which, from the point of view of his own satisfaction in terms of the proper discharge of his duties and proper conduct at his department, he wants to adhere to, but I would hope that that program of priorities does not ignore or permit the oversight of a number of proposals contained in the TED Report and evidences of which are nowhere apparent at the pres ent time.

Some of these proposals I know are proposals for major projects that require long-term planning and intensive and comprehensive financ ing, but I would hope that the Minister is thinking very seriously , very intensively about such proposals as that made in the TED Report f or a large-scale res ort in an area offering - as the report puts it - great sc enic attractions and recr eational possi bilities along the lines of Banff and Ja sper and Y ellowstone Pa rk and Disneyland and that type of thing.

I think all members of the co=ittee would agree that our province would stand to benefit tremendously by that kind of a tourist resort, that kind of an attraction, and I hope that he is bending and spending eff orts in that direction as he contemplates the future of our tourist and recrea tion industry. I'm not a camper myself but I would also speak up for those who participate in the camp ing activity who look for trailer parks and campgrounds to spend their leisure hours in.

I've heard many criticisms of the fact that - many criticisms of Manitoba 1 s shortages in this respect, particularly with respect to a shortage of adequate trailer grounds for people who are travelling across the country making use of the Trans Canada Highway, and are really on a mobile kind of vacation, acc ompanying themselves with their own mobile homes or trailers, and are looking in the Winnipeg area for an adequate trailer ground and campsi te for a rela tively brief period of time - two to three days sort of thing - on the way through.

As I say, my summer recr eational activities run in different directions but I'm informed by people who do participate in this kind of activity that there is a se rious shortage of faciliti es of that kind in the Winnipeg area and in Manitoba in general, and I commend that area of need to the Minister 's attention and conscience. Another major point of emphasis in the TED Report, Mr. Chairman, was the need for a convention centre of size and stature and full facility in Winnipeg.

I would hope the govern ment is still giving - the new government is giving serious thought to that requirement and will move as quickly as possi ble in that direction. And finally , the last point fr om the TED Report which I would like to emphasize and place on the record at this juncture, Mr. Chair man, is that report's stress on the need for expan sion of and improvement in the air travel industry in order to acc o=odate the tour ists and travellers who we would like to attract here in our province.

I apprec iate that the problems of air travel come under the purview of a diff erent minister in a diff erent department, but the Minister, as a member of the administration and a colleague of those other ministers who have the responsibility for air travel, will no doubt be able to exert persuasion and influ ence on them, and I would remind him of the need to emphasize the requirements that we have in the field of air travel if we're to acco=odate the kind of to urists and recr eation traffi c we'd

490 September 5, 1969 (MR. SHERMAN cont'd. ) . . . • • like to attract here, and if the tourist industry in Manitoba is to fulfill the potential that the drafters of the TED Report see for it. I would also hope that the Minister would have influence on his desk-mate, the Minister of Transportation, with respect to the interest that the Minister of Transportation takes in the tourist industry.

I was not a member of the last Legislature but having leafed through some of the records of the debates of that House, I note that the Minister of Transportation at that time wasn't particularly impressed by the concept of tourism and by the tourist industry as an in tegral part. of our economy, although to give him credit he pointed out that , because of the part of the country he came from, his point of view was perhaps somewhat distorted by the fact that travel facilities into the north had been neglected and were not very comfortable.

But I would hope that now, in the assumption of his office as Minister of Transportation and as a desk-mate of the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, that his interest in tourism, for the north as well as for the province in general, will be very keen. One final point which also might tie in both the north and the tourism industry in general, Mr. Chairman, is the point about some of our handicaps and drawbacks here in Manitoba.

All provinces and all part of the world have their limitations and their handicaps and their draw backs but , as Winston Churchill once said, if you have to wear glasses or if you have to use a hearing aid, make a prop of it, take advantage of it. There are things in our province which may on the surface look like drawbacks and handicaps but perhaps we could take advantage of them and make a prop of them and make some profit out of them. And I think, for example, of some of the ancient blood sports which attracted participation from the more affluent members of society in this province.

Particularly in the north, with our mosquito population and our black fly population, there is widespread practice of an ancient blood sport, but the question is whose blood is it that is being extracted ?

I wonder if the Minister is giving any thought to some sort of an imaginative program that would enable us to take advantage of our black fly and mosquito population; possibly devise some kind of activity, some kind of insect hunt, some kind of exercise that would allow us to capitalize on these handicaps in the same way that we would hope to capitalize on our winter here in Manitoba by the development of a ·winter carnival, a winter sports attraction centre, that would turn our props and turn our limitation and our difficulties into profitable endeavours and possibly into attributes rather than detriments .

Thanks, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, this might be a good occa sion for me to interrupt and to indicate that the Minister of Mines and Resources , who is due next up on the estimates, will be away on Monday, and therefore we propose to move to Youth and Education, which is the next on the list. I trust that that will be acce ptable to the members, and I move, Mr. Chairman, that Committee rise and report. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise, Call in the Speaker, Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply wishes to report progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR, RUS SELL DOERN (Elmwood) : Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rupertsland, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR, SPEAKER: It is now 12:30 and I am leaving the Chair to return again at 2:30 this afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-1-21
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 1st hansardpdf 21.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d40c8b8465cabda3356916d47f9554390e2c5ff6

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