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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

y Fourth Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, March 4, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Volume 27, Number 9 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC FOURTH SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations .......................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ........................................................................................................ Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................................................Hon.

Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Krueger Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General................................................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for ActNow B.C. ............................................................................................................................................ Hon.

Gordon Hogg Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Deputy Speaker ...........................................................................................................................................................................

Katherine Whittred Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole................................................................................................................................................. Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E.

George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................ East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, David (NDP) ......................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................ Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon.

Gordon (L).....................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L) .....................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)............................................................... Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas...................................................................... Hon. John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay................................................................................

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ............................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................Hon.

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Tuesday, March 4, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ....................................... 10187 Local Government Statutes Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 7) Hon. I.

Chong Speaker's Statement ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 10187 Use of electronic devices in the chamber Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 10187 60th anniversary of Vanderhoof Kinsmen Club J. Rustad Chief Ahan and Chilcotin War C. Wyse Baldy Hughes L. Mayencourt Wild salmon adopt-a-fry campaign R. Austin Providence Health Care J.

Nuraney Kidney Health Month K. Conroy Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 10190 Funding for school playgrounds C. James Hon. S. Bond D. Cubberley J. Kwan Services at Retirement Concepts seniors facilities M. Sather Hon. G. Abbott G. Gentner Haisla First Nation and B.C. Utilities Commission decision-making process R. Austin Hon. R. Neufeld M. Farnworth Hon. G.

Campbell Petitions...................................................................................................................... ............................................................. 10194 C. Trevena S.

Fraser Motions without Notice ......................................................................................................... ............................................... 10194 Powers and role of Children and Youth Committee Powers and role of Crown Corporations Committee Powers and role of Finance and Government Services Committee Referral of reports to and powers of Public Accounts Committee Hon. M. de Jong

Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 10196 Ministerial Accountability Bases Act, 2007-2008 (Bill 5) Hon. M. de Jong B. Ralston N. Macdonald R. Fleming S. Simpson D. Chudnovsky M. Farnworth Hon. M. de Jong Throne Speech Debate (continued) ............................................................................................................................... ........ 10210 L. Mayencourt N. Simons Hon. K.

Falcon Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right) ...................................................................................... ...................................... 10220 D. Chudnovsky Throne Speech Debate (continued) ............................................................................................................................... ........ 10220 C. Wyse Hon. G. Hogg

10187 TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 The House met at 1:34 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Introduction and First Reading of Bills LOCAL GOVERNMENT STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 Hon. I. Chong presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Local Govern- ment Statutes Amendment Act, 2008. Hon. I. Chong: I move the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. I. Chong: I am pleased to present the Local Government Statutes Amendment Act, 2008. Local governments play a key role in the vibrancy and sus- tainability of all British Columbians.

We have to re- member that while communities of all shapes and sizes face different challenges, they also encounter similar challenges. All have an interest in improved account- ability and transparency for their residents. [1335] This legislation that I'm introducing today provides important ways to support local governments to achieve this. A key area of local government interest is local elec- tions, particularly in this, an election year. The Local Gov- ernment Statutes Amendment Act will mean increased transparency in the disclosure of campaign contributions.

It will increase the level of public commitment required to stand for local office, and it will allow local governments to improve access to voting for residents. This legislation will also improve internal provincial approvals, essentially stre amlining some government processes to improve efficiencies for local governments. Finally, this legislation will enable local governments in the Elk Valley to establish the new Elk Valley property tax sharing agreement.

It's an important agreement for Elkford, Fernie, Sparwood and the regional district of East Kootenay, negotiated with the coal industry for the benefit of residents. These local governments will share municipal property ta x revenues generated from coalmining properties in the Elk Valley. The Local Government Statutes Amendment Act, 2008, is about supporting communities to become more vibrant places to live and work. I move that the Local Government Statutes Amend- ment Act, 2008, be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 7, Local Government Statutes Amendment Act, 2008, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Speaker's Statement USE OF ELECTRONIC DEVICES IN THE CHAMBER Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, I want to take a brief opportunity to address the use of electronic devices such as laptop computers, cell phones and BlackBerry units while in the chamber. As members know, these devices may be used subject to specific restrictions, as outlined in a memo to you all on February 16, 2006.

All members continue to have the obligation to ensure that these tools are used in a manner which does not disrupt the orderly conduct of the proceedings. Electronic devices must be operated silently while in the legislative chamber. Cell phone conversations are obviously not permitted, but it is imperative that these devices are on silent mode while in the chamber. T h e u s e o f t e c h n o l o g y i n t h i s c h a m b e r m u s t n e v e r impinge on the dignity or the decorum of parliamentary proceedings.

As Speaker, I reserve my right to direct any member to discontinue use of electronic devices if I find that the dignity of the House has been compromised. As noted earlier in the 2006 memo, electronic devices are permitted to access textual information during desig- nated proceedings only.

They must not be used during the following proceedings: during the Speech from the Throne, during royal assent, during budget speech, during prayers, during question period, during points of order, during points of privilege, during Speaker's rulings, during votes and divisions, and when the Premier or the Leader of the Opposition is speaking to the Speech from the Throne or the budget speech. At any other designated time, pursuant to instructions by the Speaker, electronic devices must be programmed to operate silently. Electronic devices must not be used by a member who is in possession of the floor.

I trust that all members will benefit from this fur- ther clarification on the use of electronic devices. We must ensure that these tools are used in a manner that maintains decorum in the chamber and public trust and confidence in the Legislature. I want to remind members that I have an extr a set of eyes, I understand, u p a b o v e m e t h a t i s a b l e t o c h e c k o n s o m e o f t h e s e things. So just a friendly reminder to members. Statements (Standing Order 25 B) 60th ANNIVERSARY OF VANDERHOOF KINSMEN CLUB J.

Rustad: Few service clubs can boast the type of accomplishments that the Kinsmen association can. Founded in 1920 by Hal Rogers, the Kinsmen an- nounced at last year's national convention that they've now raised over $1 billion for the people of Canada. This doesn't include over $36 million that they've raised for the Canadian Cystic Fibrosis Foundation.

10188 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 The Kinsmen have been instrumental in the battle against cystic fibrosis, but not just through fundraising. They've been advocating for neonatal cystic fibrosis screening as a way to vastly improve the lives of peo- ple with this genetic disease. This simple test allows for early intervention and greatly improves outcomes. Since the Kinsmen's ince ption, their motto has been to serve the community's greatest need. To that end, the Vanderhoof Kinsmen recently celebrated their 60th anniversary.

During th eir time in the community, they've raised about $2 million. They've supported projects such as medical facilities, parks, sports fields and a spray pool. The current goal is to help build a skateboard park for the youth of the community. [1340] I was honoured to attend a dinner in Vanderhoof celebrating their anniversary but also recognizing one of their members. Joe Fraser has been instrumental over the past decade with the Kinsmen. He joined in 1996 and has focused on helping the community with bursaries that the Kin give every year to a student who undertakes volunteer work in the community.

Joe was honoured during the 60th anniversary celebration with a life membership. This is the highest honour that the Kin can bestow upon a member, and Joe is only the 11th member in history to receive this award in the Vanderhoof association. Please join me in congratulating the efforts of the Kinsmen and in congratulating and thanking Joe Fraser for his contributions towards serving Vanderhoof's greatest needs. CHIEF AHAN AND CHILCOTIN WAR C. Wyse: On Friday I had the honour to join my colleague the member for New Westminster and several chiefs of first nation bands in a moving ceremony at New Westminster.

As this House knows from a previous address I gave in this cham ber, the Chilcotin War of 1864 had a long-term effect on first nations people of the interior plateau. Six chiefs of the Chilcotin Nation went to war against Alfred Waddington and his men, who were intent on building a road from Bute Inlet through the Tsilhqot'in territories to the Cariboo goldfields. The chiefs were trying to protect their families and territory after 60 percent of their people had been decimated by a smallpox outbreak.

As a result of the Chilcotin War of 1864, six Tsilhqot'in chiefs were executed — five of them in Quesnel and the sixth in New Westminster. While the remains of the five chiefs executed in Quesnel have been found, the sixth chief's remains were never located. Friday's ceremony in New Westminster is a first step in closing a circle that has remained open for 143 years. This moving ceremony in honour of Ahan, the fallen missing warrior, recognized the chief's efforts to protect his people and their way of life.

Attending Friday's ceremony were the current six chiefs of the Tsilhqot'in people; five former chiefs; sev- eral elders and youth from the Tsilhqot'in bands; Lynda Price, chief of the Carrier people and representa- tive of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs; Wayne Wright, mayor of New Westminster; the chair and vice-chair of the New Westminster board of education as well as other representatives of New Westminster school dis- trict. The gathering was we lcomed by Sharel Wright, daughter of Chief Rhonda Larrabee of the New West- minster Indian Band, Qayqayt.

I know that the House joins with me in celebrating this first step towards resolving a longstanding injustice and closing a circle for the first nations people of the interior plateau. BALDY HUGHES L. Mayencourt: Modelled on Italy's most successful drug treatment community, San Patrignano, the Baldy Hughes therapeutic community has become a new and inspiring alternative in response to addictions recovery in north-central B.C. Sinc e December of 2007 a small group of recovering addicts has started to arrive with the dream of building a new life for themselves and others that may join them soon.

The 1950s army base of Baldy Hughes is ideally suited to be the first long-term holistic treatment community in British Columbia. The site includes 23 buildings, including several dormitories, a restaurant, a bowling alley, a curling rink, an ice rink and a number of workshops. As well, we have had a wonderful response from the people of Prince George. Several professionals from that city join us weekly to provide workshops, lead support groups and direct apprenticeships. Without a doubt, this has been the most challeng- ing experience of my life. We have had some setbacks.

There have been times when it's been very, very dis- couraging, but there are also times when it has been incredibly inspiring to see people in their recovery. One of the things I want to tell people about in this province is that there are 17 people up at Baldy Hughes today who are working hard, who are brave and who are trying their very best to overcome their addictions, and they're making it. Among those is a young lady by the name of Stefeni, who is eight months pregnant. Several months ago she was living on the streets, and it looked like she would not be able to have her baby as life moved on for her.

I know that now Stefeni and her child will be welcomed at Baldy Hughes. They will be engaged on the recovery program, and the child, Stef eni and the other people that are living up at Baldy Hughes will have an oppor- tunity to heal. [1345] WILD SALMON ADOPT-A-FRY CAMPAIGN R. Austin: I would like to take this opportunity to speak on the importance of wild salmon to our province and to highlight the significance of this gift that is the heart and soul of so many B.C. first nations communities.

TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10189 Often when we think of salmon, we think about their economic value in terms of the commercial fishery as well as the wealth that is generated in the sport fish- ery. We've also come to learn how wild salmon nurture our forests and how without them we would not have the eagles, bears and orcas for people to come from all over the world to appreciate. I want, however, to demonstrate the cultural impor- tance of wild salmon to the first nations peoples, who figured out long ago that their survival was dependent on this resource.

Many legends and songs of first nations peoples have to do with salmon, which was often their primary source of protein. I'd like to share one such story that I and the member for North Coast witnessed when we attended Hobiyee in Gitwinksihlkw. The volcanic eruption that took place in the Nass Valley about 250 years ago is attributed to the anger of the Creator at the way in which some children disre- spected the life-giving salm on by putting stones and burning sticks into their backs and watching them swim. The elders warned the children repeatedly to stop, but they did not.

The volcanic eruption happened soon after. According to the veteran story teller, [A first nations language was spoken.], the people saw a big fire. It moved down slowly — very slowly. It was strange and frightful, [A first nations language was spoken.] contin- ued. Invisible fumes pushed ahead of the advancing wall of fire. Those who smelled them were smothered, the elders said, and their bodies stiffened like rock. All of us need to work to preserve wild salmon.

They have suffered stress from logging, industrial activity on rivers, commercial fishing and now climate change and fish farms, particularly those on migration routes. With that in mind, I would like to bring to the at- tention of all members of the House an organization called Adopt a Fry. For just $20, we can go on the Web and help them to physica lly transport salmon fry around fish farms, thus help ing their survival rate and not exposing them to unnecessary levels of sea lice. The website is www.adopt-a-fry.org. I challenge all members of the House who care about wild salmon to assist in their efforts.

PROVIDENCE HEALTH CARE J. Nuraney: I would like to take this opportunity to recognize Providence Health Care in Vancouver for being selected as one of the top-20 best employers for new Canadians. Providence operates seven acute care rehab and residential care sites in Vancouver, including St. Paul's Hospital, Mount Saint Joseph Hospital and Holy Fam- ily Hospital. The ranking is compiled by Mediacorp Canada, the same organizatio n that conducts Canada's top-100 employers ranking.

Providence Health Care is one of the two Canadian health care organizations in the top 20 and one of the two organizations selected in British Columbia. Provi- dence was recognized in particular for its programs and initiatives designed to attract, retain and develop recent immigrant employees. The government of Brit- ish Columbia is working to make it easier for interna- tionally educated workers, including health profes- sionals, to come and work in British Columbia.

This award is in recognition of employers who have taken steps to reduce the barriers that new Canadians face in making the transition to a new country and a new employer. Finalists represent employers from across Canada that lead their peers in creating workplaces that welcome new Canadians and that allow them the most opportunities for their skills, education and talents. Congratulations to the staff and administrators at Provi- dence Health Care on winning this award. KIDNEY HEALTH MONTH K.

Conroy: For those of you who know my family, there are a number of health-related issues I could speak to, and most of those are just specific to my husband Ed and his amazing ability to keep on testing our medical system. March is Kidney Month, and this last November Ed started on another new experience: kidney dialysis. [1350] The kidneys are the master chemists of the body, as vital to our health as the heart or lungs. If left untreated, kidney failure can lead to death within days. There are an estimated 145,000 British Columbians with undiag- nosed kidney disease.

As well, 2,400 people are on dialysis and 6,100 on predialysis. Dialysis in this province is coordinated by the B.C. Renal Agency through regional centres. Ours is located in the Kootenay Boundary Regional Hospital in Trail. Three days a week those requiring dialysis make their way to the unit for a procedure that can take four to six hours, depending on extenuating circumstances. You can add a few hours' travel time, depending on where you live. An initial reaction from people might be: "What a long time.

That takes your whole day," or "I would have trou- ble with that." The reality is, though, that for those people being dialyzed, it is a fact of life, as routine to them as going to work is for us. Some of these folks will eventually end up with being able to dialyze in their own home, with great support from the local team. The technology that has advanced over the years allows people to even dialyze at night, ensuring a fairly regular life.

I want to take a minute to acknowledge the in- credible team of people who work in the dialysis units across the province, but specif ically those who do such an amazing job of keeping not only my husband healthy and happy but 40 other people from around the region, who all come three times a week. That's 120 treatments in six days. So to the techs — Joy, Cheryl, Barry, Peter and Jim; the RNs — Kelly, Rose, Mary, Sharon, Kim, Margie, Melissa, Joanne, Teresa and Donna; and also to Tina, Maureen, Britt, Katy and Dr.

Zhang — thank you from our family and everyone in our region, who are indeed fortunate to have all of you as part of our health care team keeping West Kooten ay kidneys healthy and functioning.

10190 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 Oral Questions FUNDING FOR SCHOOL PLAYGROUNDS C. James: First it was booster seats and partisan photo ops for Liberal MLAs. Now it's school play- grounds — another botched Liberal distribution scheme. The B.C. Liberals took a million dollars, knowing that it wasn't enough to meet the demand, and gave it to the B.C. Confederation of Parent Advisory Councils to distribute. The problem? Many schools don't belong to the confederation. They had no opportunity to apply for this needed money. Other schools si mply couldn't afford to come up with the matching funds.

Then there was no needs assessment, just a random handout of $1 million. My question is to the Minister of Education. Why did she agree to a random distribution of the million dollars that potentially ignored the schools, the communities and, most importantly, the children who needed it the most? Hon. S. Bond: The only thing that's disappointing about the question from the Leader of the Opposition is the fact that she would full well know the value of the B.C. Confederation of Parent Advisory Councils in British Columbia. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. S.

Bond: In fact, for the kind of discussion and dialogue that's taken place from the members opposite over the last couple of days around BCCPAC, it is em- barrassing and irresponsible. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. C. James: What's embarrassing is how many ways the minister has to twist herself up to point fingers somewhere else instead of looking at the government's problem on funding issues.

BCCPAC itself said that it didn't have the capability t o m a n a g e t h e s e f u n d s , s o i t d e c i d e d t o d o a l o t t e r y system because it didn't kn ow what else to do. There was another requirement. Schools and their parent advisory councils had to le t government participate in the announcements. Clearly, that meant Liberal MLAs.

That would explain the photo op that the Minister of Forests had in Langley when he delivered his $20,000 cheque or the photo op the member for East Kootenay had when he delivered his cheque for $20,000 — or any of the other Liberal MLAs who are plastered all over the government caucus website. [1355] My question, again, to th e Minister of Education: did she not learn anything from the booster-seat fiasco?

Instead of a botched distribution scheme and Liberal photo ops, why didn't she ac tually use that time prop- erly and develop a system that would ensure the money got to the schools and students who needed it the most? Hon. S. Bond: In fact, there's only one botched thing in this Legislature, and that 's the question the member opposite just asked. Perhaps we should look in the dic- tionary for the definition of the word "random." In fact, let's actually look at where some of the playgrounds have been selected, and let's just think about where those might take place.

Oh, Cariboo North, Dragon Lake Elementary School. Perhaps in the Legislature today the member for Cariboo North would like to stand up and say: "We don't need the money for the Dragon Lake Elementary playground." Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The Leader of the Opposition has a further sup- plemental. C. James: Well, the only defence the Minister of Edu- cation can stand here and give is the definition of "ran- dom." Does she actually support random distribution of a million dollars instead of looking at the schools and the children who need it the most?

I find it extraordinary that a Minister of Education would say that random is the best way to ensure the money gets out to schools. It's amazing, but as I said, they did spend time mak- ing sure that Liberals got their photos taken with those cheques when they handed them out. They decided to take that million dollars but chose to ignore which kids and which schools needed it the most. Again, my question to the Minister of Education: why have she and her government taken time to make sure the photos are there and the press releases are there and ignored the children and the schools? Hon. S.

Bond: You know, it's amazing. What was then was then; what's now is now. What did the Leader of the Opposition say to the B.C. Confederation of Parent Advisory Councils when she was a trustee? Perhaps on this side of the House we're going to stand up every single day in this House and trust parents in British Columbia to make decisions that are in the best interests of children. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Hon. S. Bond: In fact, parents across this prov- ince….

When we visited schools across British Colum- bia — hundreds of schools — one of the things they said was that in the past, previous governments didn't provide any additional fund ing for playgrounds. We responded. We provided the money to BCCPAC, and they made the decisions they felt were appropriate.

TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10191 D. Cubberley: Queen Mary Elementary was a west side winner in the minister 's mini-lotto for play- grounds. It decided it shou ld do the right thing and give its $10,000 to a needy east side school. The parents that the minister says we should trust at Queen Mary said to themselves: "We're thinking about this, and we think this money should be better spent by a school with little or no equipment rather than a school that has good equipment." [1400] So my question to the minister: why didn't she think about it?

Why didn't she aim the million dollars at the neediest schools, recognizing they've got the least ability to fundraise? Why did she freeze those schools out? And then, why didn't she trust the parents and listen to them when they tried to do the right thing and give the money to a needy school? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. S. Bond: You know, as the Education critic, the member may want to ask himself how appropriate it is to stand in the Legisl ature today and criticize an organization that represents almost 1,100…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Continue. Hon. S.

Bond: In fact, it's an organization that repre- sents over 1,100 parent advisory councils, which this government has partnered with on numerous initiatives. We trust them, we support them, and that will continue. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. D. Cubberley: Well, I was certainly criticizing an organization, but I think it was the organization sitting on that side of the House. There are a lot of public schools in British Columbia that don't have PACs, and the minister knows that. Many of those schools that don't have PACs are among the neediest schools in th e province.

Many of them don't have adequate playground equipment, or any playground equipment at all. What I want to know is: why did she endorse a lottery that didn't apply to all schools? Why didn't she insist that the money go where it's actually most needed? And why would she refuse to allow parents of the school to correct her mistaken approach, when she says she trusts parents? Hon. S. Bond: Perhaps the member opposite would like to finish the rest of the story. You see, the million dollars isn't the only investment that this government made in playgrounds.

In fact, working with the Solici- tor General, we're going to provide $1 million for three more years, for an additional $3 million for PACs. And let's look at one other great partnership…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat for a second. Members. Continue. Hon. S. Bond: Perhaps we should just mention the other piece of the playground program. In a partnership with the Rick Hansen Foundation, we have also provided $2.5 million to allow boards of education, municipalities and a wide group of partners to apply for $2.5 million in playground funding. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. J.

Kwan: The minister says she wants to listen to parents. Let's listen to these quotes from a parent from Queen Mary's: "It's really di sappointing. We have been getting lots of interest from schools, and they felt they could put the money to good use. We found out that many people who wanted the money and who really needed it, didn't get it.

Ther e was an agreement that if we could find a school that really needs it, we would all feel a lot better if we can donate those dollars." The parent goes on to say: "I always thought that when the government was giving out money, it had processes in place to do it in an accountable way." So the government allows for a lottery program in place from an organization that admits that they don't have the wherewithal to do it otherwise — to assess it on the basis of need. That's accountability from this government.

Will this government trust the parents of Queen Mary's and allow them to donate the moneys to schools that are much more in need of playground equipment dollars? [1405] Hon. S. Bond: So which is it? You're not prepared to…. Sorry, through the Chair. The member opposite is not prepared to actually su pport and provide the kind of responsibility to the B. C. Confederation of Parent Advisory Councils, who made every single decision on that list independently. We support that, and we're going to continue to work closely with BCCPAC. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. J.

Kwan: Let's be clear. The president of BCCPAC said that her organization opted for a lottery program because it did not have the staff or the expertise to assess the needs of the applicants. The government, which touts the ActNow initiative, refuses to fund all schools in need of playground equipment. Instead, they choose a lottery program to be put in place. They did this even th ough they know that this would eliminate some 30 percent of the schools from

10192 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 qualifying. Even when a wi nner of the lottery, Queen Mary School, wanted to donate that money to another needy school, the government said no. Is it a wonder, Mr. Speake r? It turns out that the priority for this government on this initiative is all about photo ops. How's that for accountability for you? My question is actually to the Premier. Will he tell his Minister of Education to be accountable to the tax- payers of British Columbia, and will he finally commit to fund all schools that ar e in need of playground equipment, and do it today? Hon. S.

Bond: Well, I know this comes with great risk, but I want to point out this fact. This is the first government that has actually stepped up to the plate and provided playground funding. In fact, Mr. Speaker…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Just take your seat, Minister. Continue, Minister. Hon. S. Bond: Well, what's ironic is…. Let's talk about the opportunity for photo ops. I remember the last time that I was at Ca mbridge Elementary School, actually opening that particular school.

It was a pleasure to share the ribbon cutting de tails that we had with the member for Surrey–Panorama Ridge, happy to attend that particular photo op. This is about providing…. Interjections. Hon. S. Bond: Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker: Continue. Hon. S. Bond: This is about providing, for the first time in British Columbia, $6.5 million to support parent advisory councils. We're proud of that record, and we're going to continue to work with BCCPAC. SERVICES AT RETIREMENT CONCEPTS SENIORS FACILITIES M. Sather: Golden Ears seniors centre is operated by Retirement Concepts in Maple Ridge.

An audit was done of the facility by th e Fraser Health Authority. They found them non-compliant in all categories, and they said that the lack of supervision has led to serious risk to resident health and safety. Tony Baena from Retirement Concepts blames the government. He said that the government is not providing the funding that they need to meet the needs of the residents there. Now, lack of the staff to care for these residents is serious to seniors. It means less cleaning. It means less personal care. It means less dignity for them.

When is the minister going to stop standing up for his friends, when is he going to start standing up for the seniors of this province, and when is he going to get Retirement Concepts to provide the care to these seniors that they should be providing? Hon. G. Abbott: The issues which the member references were raised with the licensing authority at Fraser Health last July. Immediately after being in receipt of the complaints, the Fraser Health licensing authorities stepped in. They ordered remediation.

The remediation was undertaken very promptly. [1410] In fact, all of these issues were canvassed, I thought very thoroughly, in a local newspaper in the area back on October 16, 2007. I know that the hon. member was not in the batting lineup for the opposition last fall and perhaps didn't have an opportunity to raise the issue at that time. What occurred at Golden Ears was that the licens- ing authorities, immediately upon hearing of a con- cern, stepped in and resolved it, as the system should work. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M.

Sather: We don't know what's going on in this facility because they don't report anymore. No one knows what is going on there. I'll tell you that Tina Vos's mother is there at the facility. She's been there since before Retirement Concepts took over. She said that the care has gone steadily downhill, and it's not improving. She observed her mother, who was in soiled clothes, being cleaned but being put back into the same clothes. When is this minister going to stop apologizing and covering up for Retirement Concepts? When is he go- ing to start acting in the best interests of the seniors of this province?

When is he go ing to act in the best inter- ests of my constituents at this facility? Hon. G. Abbott: Again, I'm rather puzzled that the member didn't have an opportunity to know about these things, because they were canvassed very exten- sively in his local paper on October 16, 2007. If the member didn't choose to get up at that time and raise this issue on behalf of his constituents…. I don't know what to say about that. There is a several-months delay in the member asking these questions. In terms of apologizing for anyone, we don't apologize for anyone. Residential care…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. G. Abbott: Residential care in this province is a trust that must be observed. Every complaint, every allegation that we ever receive…. We always ensure that the licensing officers immediately follow up. They follow up rigorously. They follow up comprehensively. If the member has an accusation to make, he should make it, because this is a very good system. It works very effectively, unlike the opposition.

TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10193 G. Gentner: The minister talks about a complaint process whereby Retirement Concepts intercepts those complaints before they reach his office. Last fall the opposition exposed the serious decline of seniors care in this province. The Leader of the Op- position raised in this Ho use the alarming issues of Beacon Hill Villa, another Retirement Concepts facility. The minister defended Retirement Concepts. He s a i d t h a t i t w a s o k a y . H e s a i d t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e n o trouble putting his own parents there.

Well, the admin- istrator overseeing this faci lity has been extended and admissions remain closed. Last night we learned of another story about the Summerland Seniors Village , another Retirement Con- cepts. The member for Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows has spoken and shared with u s concerns relative to G olden Ears village. We hear endless horror stories — Guildford Seniors Village, Williams Lake Seniors Village, Nanaimo Seniors Village. On and on th ey come, and all are from Retirement Concepts. When is enough, enough, Mr. Speaker? When is this minister going to take action?

When is this government to protect seniors instead of his friends? Hon. G. Abbott: The member's comments are utter nonsense. We demand of every residential care facility in the province of British Columbia the highest stan- dards in protecting the lives and well-being of the fragile and often very vulnerable seniors that they protect. We demand that of every facility in the province. [1415] At any time when we get a complaint, when we get an allegation, when we get a concern from a staff member, from the family or from the patient themselves, they are followed up on rigorously and demonstrably.

This is a system that works very, very well. If this member has any suggestions to make about an allegation that has not been followed up on, I'd love to hear it, because it's not true. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. G. Gentner: We have the records of those so-called highest standards from the Fraser Health Authority, which indicate that they have the lowest staffing levels, the lowest standards in western Canada, if not in all of Canada. Can the minister explain to us: how many care hours do seniors receive in long-term facilities from this government?

Please tell me: what is the standard here in B.C.? Your own ministry information tells the real story, Minister. Mr. Speaker: I'll just remind members: through the Chair, please. Hon. G. Abbott: I am very proud of what Fraser Health Authority has done in terms of providing resi- dential care and assisted living for the people that they serve in the Fraser region. When we took office, it took residents in the Fraser Health region almost one year to access residential care — almost one year.

Today that has been reduced to between 30 and 60 days because Fraser Health has invested and the province of British Columbia has invested…. We have a thou sand new residential care and assisted-living spaces in Fraser Health, thanks to that investment by the government and Fraser Health. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister. Hon. G. Abbott: Over the four years that Fraser Health facilities have been monitored — that's 64 facilities and thousands of residents — there have been 23 high- rating reports for Fraser Health. That is approximately five per year over 64 facilities. HAISLA FIRST NATION AND B.C.

UTILITIES COMMISSION DECISION-MAKING PROCESS R. Austin: Yesterday in this chamber, the Minister of Energy and Mines denied that this government has made any deal with Steve Wilson, chief of the Haisla Na- tion, regarding the B.C. Hydro–Alcan energy purchasing agreement. But in a letter to the Premier, Chief Wilson makes it clear that he agreed to take a neutral position on the EPA in exchange for government support of some of his projects. Chief Wilson says: "I have more than lived up to my promise, and I expect the province to live up to what it has promised me." My questi on is for the minister.

Is he asserting that Chief Wilson is not telling the truth? Hon. R. Neufeld: Yesterday I was very clear with the members opposite. They don't want to listen to it, but I'll tell them again in case they forgot already. It was just yesterday about this time. This government has never done anything to subvert any decision made by the B.C. Utilities Commission on behalf of all the residents in the province of British Columbia — never has intended to and never will do.

One thing we have done is that we have been working with first nations across the province of British Columbia, including the Haisla and Chief Wilson, on a whole bunch of projects to actually help them get economics happening on their traditional territory, to actually get jobs. What's getting tiresome is listening to the members opposite, who want to subvert that position all the time and not have those first nations actually enjoy what the rest of us do. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. R. Austin: This isn't a matter of Chief Wilson's opinion. It's right here in black and white.

Again, I quote from the letter to the Premier: "What we need f r o m y o u i s t o d i r e c t y o u r m i n i s t e r s t o w o r k d i r e c t l y with us to succeed in a short time span." [1420] He goes on to say: "I expect the government to live up to what it has promised me. That includes what B.C.

10194 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 Hydro has promised for the Haisla, to take a neutral position on the EPA at the BCUC hearings." The Energy Minister won't answer the question directly, but his response suggests that he doesn't believe Mr. Wilson. So I ask the Premier, the man to whom this is ad- dressed: does he agree with the Energy Minister? Does the Premier think that Chief Wilson is not telling the truth? Hon. R. Neufeld: Well, it's amazing.

It's amazing that in this Legislature we have a member of the oppo- sition now accusing a first nation leader in his own right, who has done a lot of things in the northwest for the people in the northwest… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Neufeld: …whether it's the LNG port, whether it's the energy corridor, whether it's working to try and get training done on reserve so that those people can actually go to work — all of those things. We have a member of the opposition saying that that Chief would do something illegal. That is entirely un- acceptable in this House. M.

Farnworth: Well, the opposition just wants to get the answer to a question of a letter from the Chief to the Premier. The minister refuses to answer the basic question. The question is really quite simple. Is he saying that the Chief is not saying the truth in that letter? Hon. G. Campbell: I don't think that this side of the House could be any clearer. The government has never attempted to influence the BCUC process or anyone's ability to participate in it. The government has done this.

The government has said to first nations across this province that we want to work with them to build economic strength for the future of their first nations. The government has worked…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. G. Campbell: The government has worked with communities in the northwest, including the Haisla First Nation government, to try and bring forward a break-bulk terminal in Kiti m at. We have worked with the Haisla First Nation to try and make sure that we can establish an LNG proposal worth $500 million that that opposition has been opposed to.

The government has said to first nations across this province that we will work with first nations in the development of IPP projec ts, which convert clean power for first nations economic opportunity. The gov- ernment has said to first nations that we will work with them on the northern energy corridor, which could bring billions of dollars of opportunities across the north of this province. So to the members opposite, let me reiterate. The government has never attempted… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. G.

Campbell: …to influence the BCUC process, but we will always work with first nations to close the economic gaps, the health gaps and the education gaps that exist in British Columbia. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members, Members. [End of question period.] Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Petitions C. Trevena: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition to present. I have a petition for more than 1,300 residents of Quadra Island, which is 82 percent of the electorate, calling for a freeze on ferry fares and a review of the Coastal Ferry Act. S.

Fraser: I present a petition from people from all over the province once again demanding that we protect animals and the environment from dangerous antifreeze. [1425] Motions without Notice Hon. M. de Jong: By leave, I move a series of motions dealing with the select standing committees, which I have provided to the Opposition House Leader. They charge the following committees with their duties: the Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth, the Select Standing Committee on Crown Corporations, the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Govern- ment Services, and the Public Accounts Committee.

I think my friend has had an opportunity to peruse the motions and finds them acceptable. POWERS AND ROLE OF CHILDREN AND YOUTH COMMITTEE [That the Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth be appointed to be empowered to foster greater awareness and understanding among legislators and the public of the BC child welfare system, and in particular to: 1.

Be the committee that receives and reviews the annual service plan from the Representative for Children and Youth (the "Representative") that includes a statement of goals and identifies specific objectives and performance measures that will be required to exercise the powers and perform the func- tions and duties of the Representative during the fiscal year;

TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10195 2. Be the committee to which the Representative reports, at least annually; 3. Refer to the Representative for investigation the critical injury or death of a child; and 4. Receive and consider all reports and plans delivered by the Representative (if any during the time period of these terms of reference) to the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. In addition to the powers previously conferred upon Select Standing Committees of the House, the Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth be empowered:

a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the Committee;

b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, during the recess after prorogation until the next follow- ing Session and during any sitting of the House;

c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and

d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee; and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or following any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] POWERS AND ROLE OF CROWN CORPORATIONS COMMITTEE [That the Select Standing Committee on Crown Corpo- rations be appointed to review the annual reports and service plans of British Columbia Crown Corporations.

In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Select Standing Committee on Crown Corporations, the Committee be empowered: (

a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommit- tees and to refer to such subcommittees any of the mat- ters referred to the Committee; (

b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, during the recess after prorogation until the next fol- lowing Session and during any sitting of the House; (

c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and (

d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee, and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or fol- lowing any adjournment, or at the next following Ses- sion, as the case may be; to deposit the original of its re- ports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sit- tings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] POWERS AND ROLE OF FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE [That the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services be empowered: la.) To examine, inquire into and make recommendations with respect to the pre-budget consultation report prepared by the Minister of Finance in accordance with

section 2 of the Budget Transparency and Accountability Act and, in particular, to: lb.) Conduct public consultations across British Colum- bia on proposals and recommendations regarding the provincial budget and fiscal policy for the coming fiscal year by any means the committee considers appropriate, including but not limited to public meetings, telephone and electronic means; 1c.) Prepare a report no later than November 15, 2008 on the results of those consultations; and 2a.) To consider and make recommendations on the annual reports, rolling three-year service plans and budgets of the following statutory officers:

i) Auditor General ii) Chief Electoral Officer iii) Conflict of Interest Commissioner iv) Information and Privacy Commissioner

v) Merit Commissioner vi) Ombudsman vii) Police Complaint Commissioner viii) Representative fo r Children and Youth; and, 2b.) To examine, inquire into and make recommendations with respect to other matters brought to the Committee's attention by any of the Officers listed in 2(

a) above. 3. That the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services be the committee referred to in sections 19, 20, 21 and 23 of the Auditor General Act and that the performance report in

section 22 of the Auditor General Act be referred to the committee. In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services, the committee shall be empowered: (

a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommit- tees and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the Committee; (

b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, during the recess after prorogation until the next following Session and during any sitting of the House; (

c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and (

d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee, and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or follow- ing any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legisla- tive Assembly.] REFERRAL OF REPORTS TO AND POWERS OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE [1.

That the reports of the Auditor General of British Columbia deposited with the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly during the fourth session of the thirty-eighth parliament be deemed referred to the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, with the exception of the report referred to in

section 22 of the Auditor General Act which is referred to the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services, and in addition that

10196 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 the following reports of the Auditor General of British Columbia be referred to the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Audit Reports: Report No. 3, 2007/08: A Review of the Vancouver Convention Centre Expansion Project: Governance and Risk Management Report No. 5, 2007/08: Preventing Fatalities and Serious Injuries in B.C.

Forests: Progress Needed Report No. 6, 2007/08: Literacy: Creating the Conditions for Reading and Writing Success Follow-up Reports: Report No. 8, 2004/2005: Follow-up of 2002/2003 Report 5: Man- aging Contaminated Sites on Provincial Lands (November 2004) Report No. 9, 2004/2005: Follow-up of Two Health Risk Reports: A Review of Performance Agreements; Information Use in Resource Allocation (December 2004) Report No. 12, 2004/2005: Third Follow-up of 2000/2001 Report 4: Management Consulting Engagements in Government (March 2005) Report No. 1, 2005/2006: Follow-up of the Recommendations of the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts contained in its Fourth Report of the 3rd Session of the 36th Parliament: Earthquake Preparedness: Performance Audit (May 2005) Report No. 2, 2005/2006: Joint Follow-up of 2001/2002 Report 1: Managing Interface Fire Risks and Firestorm 2003 Provincial Review (May 2005) Report No. 7, 2006/2007: Follow-up of 2003/2004 Report 4: Alternative Payments to Physicians: A Program in Need of Change (February 2006) Report No. 4, 2007/2008: Follow-up of 2004/2005 Report 3: Preventing and Managing Diabetes in British Columbia (December 2007) Other: BC's Auditor General comments on Sea-to-Sky Highway Improvement Project Report (December 21, 2005) 2.

That the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts be the committee referred to in sections 2, 6, 7, 10, 13 and 14 of the Auditor General Act. In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, the Committee be empowered: (

a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the Committee: (

b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, during the recess after prorogation until the next following Session and during any sitting of the House; (

c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and (

d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee, and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or following any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] With leave, I so move them. Leave granted. Motions approved. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: I call second reading of Bill 5, Ministerial Accountability Bases Act, 2007-2008.

Second Reading of Bills MINISTERIAL ACCOUNTABILITY BASES ACT, 2007-2008 Hon. M. de Jong: I move that Bill 5 be read a second time now. B i l l 5 p r o v i d e s f o r a n i n c r e a s e i n t h e a m o u n t o f e s t i - mated operating expenses for the purposes of ministerial accountability under the Balanced Budget and Ministerial Accountability Act by the amounts referred to in the supplementary estimates for 2007-2008, which was tabled on February 26, and for statutory expenditures under the Emergency Program Act and the Wildfire Act.

As debated in the House last Tuesday, the $1.045 billion supplementary estimate provided funding for the climate action dividend, a host of climate action initiatives, grants to organizations in support of applied science and technology, funding to support research and treatments for illness and injuries, preventing and treat- ing childhood cancers, and funding to support arts and culture in British Columbia. The Ministry of Forests and Range was required to spend against their statutory authority for direct forest fire fighting costs.

Although the province experienced an average year with cool er temperatures and wetter weather, the southeast corner of the province remained unseasonably hot, dry and susceptible to fire.

There were several notable fires in the '07-08 fiscal year, including the 1,500 he ctare Hamill Creek fire north of Argenta, which caused a number of evacuation alerts; the almost 600 hectare Arrow Lake–Penstock fire southwest of Nakusp, which caused the evacuation alerts and power outages to Nakusp and several other communities; the almost 3,000 hectare Springer Creek fire north of Slocan, which also caused evacuation or- ders and alerts; and the just over 3,500 hectare fire 20 kilometres southeast of Trai l, which caused evacuation orders and alerts.

So it was a difficult fire season, especially in the southeast corner of the province, with the overall num- bers of fires totalling just under 1,600, with almost 60 percent of those caused by lightning. The additional amount under the Emergency Pro- gram Act is to account for statutory costs incurred for responses to storm events and for the severe flooding in the province. Because of the storm events and the associated flooding and mitigation strategies, the Minis- try of Public Safety and Solicitor General was required to spend over their budget allo tment in Vote 39.

The cur- rent estimate for statutory overspending for '07-08 is $75.2 million. These costs included — that is, the $75.2 million — 55 mitigation work projects to protect communities across the province, 33 mitigation work projects to pro- tect highways and bridge structures, the distribution of

TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10197 5.3 million sandbags, dike and flood response training, evacuation costs and the flood response to the Nechako River ice jam. It's been another challenging season for storms and floods.

It's important for the province, in our view, to mitigate the effect of these disasters. [1430] The Ministerial Accountability Bases Act, 2007- 2008, makes provision to increase the amount of esti- mated operating expenses for purposes of ministerial accountability under the Balanced Budget and Ministerial Accountability Act for the Ministry of Advanced Education, the Ministry of Environment, the Ministry of Finance, the Ministry of Forests and Range, the Ministry of Health; the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General; and the Ministry of Tourism, Sport and the Arts, as identified in Bill 5.

I move second reading. B. Ralston: Well, this is the ministerial equivalent of "The Puppy Dog Ate My Homework Act." What hap- pens here is that the ministerial accountability act, which was passed in the halcyon days of 2001, provides for a penalty to individual ministers and to ministers as part of the cabinet in their collective responsibility if they overspend their budget targets. [S.

Hammell in the chair.] What has happened routinely under this legisla- tion is that for one reason or another, those targets have been exceeded, and mostly for deliberate policy choices by the government rather than the purpose for which the act was crafted ostensibly at the outset in 2001. Granted, the minister has sp ent most of his very brief time introducing this bill on forest fires, and no doubt forest fires are a legitimately unpredictable expense.

This bill touches on a number of other ministers: the Minister of Advanced Education; the Minister of Environment; the Minister of Finance; the Minister of Forests, as I've mentioned; the Minister of Health; the Minister of Public Safety; and the Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts. What has happened in the budget process this year is that the Minister of Finance has chosen to take money from the previous budget year and add it to the esti- mates for that year, thus requiring and triggering this legislation.

Section 3 of the Balanced Budget and Minis- terial Accountability Act prescribes a salary holdback of 20 percent, which will be redeemed to the minister. In

section 4, half of it is to be redeemed to the minister. If in the main estimates for that fiscal year a surplus was estimated, and there's a surplus of at least 50 percent of the amount estimated, that's the holdback for achieving collective responsibilities. Then in

section 5, the other half is for achieving individual responsibilities. So what started out as a trumpet call — and in the initial Speech from the Throne it was referred to back in 2001 as true accountability — has now become a routine and embarrassing procedure for the govern- ment to circumvent the act, thus requiring this legisla- tion each time. Without this act, these ministers would suffer, I suppose, the reduction in pay that's prescribed by the act.

The government is willing to engage the entire mechanism of this Legislature — the drafters, the in- troduction, the Clerk's office, all the rest of it — simply to save that small amount of each minister's salary in order that they not suffer the consequences of

an act that they set in place back in 2001. It's probably somewhat ir onic that in this Bill 2, which we were debating earl ier this morning, there are amendments proposed to

section 27 of the Financial Administration Act. Government members, if they're appointed to a board or comm ission and if the legisla- tion passes, will be able to be paid in addition to their salaries for that. There's never, apparently, a good time for the min- isters opposite or the members opposite to live up to their responsibility under this act and take the pay cut that's prescribed. There's always an excuse. There's always a way around it. There's always amnesty for the ministers, and this year is apparently no exception. I speak against this bill at second reading.

What the government should probably consider doing is simply revoking or amending the governing legislation so that we don't have to enter into this charade every single year. I speak strongly against this bill. [1435] N. Macdonald: Bill 5 has, as the member previously said, been put in place and put before this House because a series of B.C. Liberal ministers have failed to keep to their budgets. It's before I came to the House, but it was back in 2001.

Many of the members here were present during that time, voted for this piece of legislation and made a big deal about it before they became government and when they became government. So it's a highly hyped piece of legislation. The B.C. Liberals made it law that a minister would have a per- centage of their salary held back and that it would be lost if a minister did not keep to their budget. Of course, what so often happens and what so often follows, after this heavily hyped piece of legislation, is that like time and time again, the reality soaks in even- tually.

The reality with this piece of legislation is that every single year certainly that I've been here, and I believe going back seven years, ministers have not kept to their budgets. Every single year there's a piece of legislation like this that forgives them. It makes the original promise farcical, and it makes the piece of legislation that's being amended here a bit of a joke — in fact, more of a joke. It is a complete joke, and it is a misrepresentation to the public about what's going on.

I have time to speak, and the focus of my speech is going to be on the fact that we need to be very careful as an institution with how we communicate to the pub- lic. There is a tremendous am ount of cynicism, and I'll give you a context for that. In Alberta and where I'm from…. I'm closer to Alberta and more tuned into Alberta than a lot of

10198 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 places, except for maybe the members for Peace River South, Peace River North and East Kootenay. What happened in Alberta yesterday was that 41 percent of people bothered to go out and vote in the election there — 41 percent. As people who get their power through the democratic process, that should concer n us. We have an obligation to stop people from drifting into cynicism. This sort of exercise every single year is bound to reinforce that cynicism. What do you have?

You have a solemn prom- ise that ministers are going to keep to their budgets, but every single year they don't, and every single year a bill is brought forward that excuses them. What one minister has ever been held accountable for the fact that they have not kept to their budget? Not one. There could be some argu ment if it's a forest fire season, and certainly what was highlighted were the places where you could have an argument. You could have a debate.

But so many of these things that have been pulled forward and were put into last year's budget were items that when we debated them, and the ques- tion was asked of ministers to rationalize why it would not be in the upcoming year, they couldn't give a decent answer because there was no decent answer. There was no compelling reason given by at least three of the ministers for why the money should be put on the books the way it was put. There was no compelling reason. There was a political reason why you'd do it the way they did, but there was no logic to where it was placed.

It makes a farce of a piece of legislation that was heav- ily hyped when it was first put in. Since it was a piece of legislation that flowed from a political promise that was made in the election, it only adds to the cynicism that is bound to be out there — cynicism that rightly would be d i r e c t e d a t t h i s g o v e r n m e n t b u t i n r e a l i t y i s d i r e c t e d t o - wards this institution and politicians in general. That's the truth of it. That cynicism, we know, is getting deeper and deeper as time goes on.

I tell you that 41 percent voting in our neighbouring province is a problem that all of us should be worried about. It's something that we need to be cognizant of. [1440] We have an obligation to make sure that people do not distrust an institution that has served not only this country but many countries for a long, long time. We should be leaving this institution strengthening it, not weakening it. What I would point to is just a series of promises that were made that, over time, haven't been kept. People notice it. People are aware of it.

You have solemn promises that are made pre- election not to reduce the minimum wage. That was a promise made before 2001. It happened. Any explana- tion about it being a training wage — there's nobody who doesn't see through that. It is a solemn promise made before. And what do politicians do? Well, as soon as it's finished, they switch that. Does it not happen again and again? They promised they wouldn't privatize health care services. Is that not happening in this province? It is. People can see through it. Yet a solemn promise was made before, and then it's gone. Well, we can think of 50.

I think Rafe Mair did a list of 25. He could update that to 50. We could name them off the top of our heads. Promises not to sell B.C. Rail. How did that go? Now, that was a pretty solemn promise that was made. It could not have been made any clearer. And yet just like this legislation, at a convenient time, when they have the power to do so, they just switch it. A solemn promise that ministers who can't keep their budgets lose a percentage of their salary. It's a big thing to brag about, but it has not taken place once.

There is not one year where a minister hasn't been un- able to keep to their budget, and it happened again this year. It happened again to not just one. In fact, when the list was being read, it was…. You're trying to think: well, which minister was not involved in this? It's a long list of ministers that are going to be excused from not being able to keep their budgets in place. There was a promise not to break contracts. Remem- ber that one? How did that go? The implications of breaking that promise are no t only the cynicism of the population. It has also fundamentally weakened a system that we depend upon.

It has fundamentally weakened residential care. There's no question on that. There's no question. There was a promise to give us a health care system that was accountable to us. Well, how's that going? Take a minute to talk about that. Question period is obviously not a great forum for those sorts of debates. Let's just talk about some of the realities and some of the cynicism that comes when there is a promise to have a health care system that's accountable. The central issue in residential care is the number of staff you have for the number of residents that need to be looked after.

What is incontestable is that some of those numbers cannot be acceptable in any way. Mount Cartier Court. Not only did it receive a licensing officer report that was heavily critical. It also put, in fact, a ratio of workers to residents that was within this government's st andards. There was a nurse and two care aides looking after 46 residential care residents — 46 of them. Now, these are people that need a tremendous amount of care. That's overnight. What I was told by many, many people is that that is not enough. We were told we were going to have a health system that was accountable.

I know that one of the ways you can take it forward is to go to the minister. I understand that. But you need a system that is going to work better than that. What people told me with relation to Mount Cartier, what they told me with relation to issues at Joseph Creek, was that there was a fund amental problem with the ratio of care workers that is acceptable to this govern- ment and that when issues are brought forward, there is no accountability. [1445] These are our most vulnerable people in residence. They are highly vulnerable , and their families are

TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10199 incredibly vulnerable too. When they bring an issue forward, they are deeply concerned that it will affect the level of care. W e w e r e t o l d b y t h i s g o v e r n m e n t t h a t j u s t a s w e would have ministers who were held accountable, we would have a health system th at's accountable. But it is not the reality. The reality is that those people are highly reluctant to bring anything forward, and they live in fear of repercussions. We can stay here and stand up and say that they have no need to fear repercussions. That's easy for us to say.

We will not face them. The reality is that people fear repercussions. When I was talking to a resident…. Actually, her husband was a resident in Mount Cartier. She eventually brought the story forward publicly, but when she first contacted my office, she would not come to my office to meet because she was afraid somebody would see her. I had to go to her apartment. You can stand up and say: "Well, she shouldn't have been in fear." Reasonably, she shouldn't have been, but that is the reality. There are more families that have the same concerns as Tina, but they will not speak.

They will tell me, but they will not speak. The fundamental problem is the ratio of care workers to residents, and it is a huge problem. In a truly account- able system, if you had one…. We put an idea forward. Get a seniors representative. Have their issues dealt with in a forum that's different than this, because I can tell you that this forum is part of what will keep people reluctant to bring issues forward — real issues that shou ld be talked about, things that the light should be shone on. But we have not set up a system.

The promise to get a system where health is accountable has not been set up by this government. It is another failed promise. A seniors representative would remove the fear. It would give people a way of bringing issues forward and dealing w i t h i s s u e s i n a w a y t h a t i s f a r m o r e r e s p e c t f u l , f a r more dignified. That is a promise that was made by this government, just as they made a promise about holding ministers accountable — that they would somehow be docked pay. Well, my experience in this House has not been that anybody here gets docked pay.

In fact, it seems to me that the pay system for all of us goes up and up. Joseph Creek. Let's talk about Joseph Creek, Minister. Joseph Creek had a situatio n brought forward. It was brought forward by people whose parents had passed away. There are many others that raised the same concerns, but the only ones that wo uld bring it forward were those that had parents who are no longer in the facility. They've passed away. They raised the same concerns, just as I've heard with Fernie, with many, many facilities. There are not enough people looking after residents in these facilities. Let's move on.

There's more time for that as the session goes on — to keep pushing on that issue and to hope that the government will listen to seniors and raise the standard of care so that we have seniors treated with the dignity and respect they deserve, and that we put in place systems so that they can bring their concerns forward and light can be shone on conditions in these residential care facilities. Let's talk about another pr omise that was made. It's a really interesting one. The B.C. Liberals promised that they wouldn't privatize B.C. Hydro. Well, how's that going? Interjection. N. Macdonald: Not too good.

Not too good at all. You know, the reality…. The starting point for any discussion on this should be: well, how is public power doing for us? How is that working out — the lowest rates, second-lowest rates in all of North America? If there was a system that was lower, it would be — what? — Quebec or some other system that is publicly owned. You compare that to California. I mentioned Alberta before. Compare that to Alberta. [1450] Why do you tinker with that? Well, why do you promise you're not going to tinker with it and move right into making substantive changes? Let's understand that deal.

We take a successful system…. The B.C. Liberals promised they're not going to change it, and as soon as they're in power, they mo ve very quickly and very thoughtfully to make changes — and very thoughtful about hiding those changes. We paid to identify sites that would be good for run-of-the-river projects. We paid to find those sites. We own the water; we own the land. We own the land that the roads are going to go on. We own the land that the transmission lines are going to go over. We own all of that. Then somehow those are given away for — what? — $5,000 or $10,000. Did anybody hear when that was offered?

I don't think so. You had to be on a special list to get those grabbed up. That's for sure. Have a look at who got them. Have a good close look, and I invite the public to do that. This is the biggest ripoff in the history of this province. Look at who got the rights to those rivers, and look what they did to them. We took a system that was excellent in every way. We've tinkered with it, and people have made out with huge amounts of money. The only way people would not be revolted by it is if they didn't understand what was going on.

There is a fog that the government very deliberately put around this whole issue so that you would really have to dig to get through it. Just as there's a fog that goes with this piece of legislation. The idea that there is some ministerial accountability when not one minister has ever been held accountable for missing their budget and when every single year there is at least one, two in this case — what is it? — five, six…. It doesn't really matter. It's become such a joke now that nobody really even bothers to count. It's just assumed that nothing will come of it. Let's continue with public power for awhile.

So we own all of these things, and we give it away. All sorts of things are tinkered with B.C. Hydro that restrict their ability to do their job in the public interest. I n s t e a d , t h i n g s a r e s e t u p s o t h a t i t i s d o n e f o r t h e

10200 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 interests of a small group of private investors. It's not a small group; it's a growing group. How many are we giving away here? How many sites? There are 300, 400 or 500. It's a lot — a lot of money to be made. How many water licences are there? Some 300, 400, 250…. An Hon. Member: It's 80. N. Macdonald: Eighty are approved — right? So who are they, and why would we be doing it in private…? Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Members. N. Macdonald: And why would we be doing it for contracts that are…? Interjection. Deputy Speaker: Member. Member. Sit down.

Sit down. Member, through the Chair. N. Macdonald: There are 15-to-40-year contracts. Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Sit down. Members. Members. N. Macdonald: Well, the Minister of Environment has a lot to say. Maybe at some point he would stand up and explain to us why he thinks he should get the money that's supposed to be held back. He's the one who voted for the accountability act. He's the one who made the big deal about the accountability and being held to account for not keeping to his budget. He hasn't kept to his budget, but he's going to vote to change that. They have the majority.

They can do whatever they want. So maybe if the minister wants to speak, he can stand up and explain that. Let's go back to private power. Private power is — and I will say it again — the biggest giveaway of B.C.'s wealth that will have happened in this province — the biggest giveaway. We are talking hundreds of millions of dollars. These contracts are for — what? — 15 to 40 years. The minister will stand up and talk about security of power. What happens after 15 to 40 years? It goes on the market. It goes to California or whoever is the highest bidder. That is not in the public interest.

That is in a select private interest, and that is what is taking place here. So we're talking about all sorts of things. We're talking about promises that were made, promises that were not kept. What I will tell the public is that if there is one issue that you want to understand, it is this one. The gov- ernment has put it in a fog. It is in a fog that you want to cut through. [1455] There is material out there. Read Liquid Gold by John Calvert. Read the report by Dr. Shaffer. Go on the Web and google independent power projects. That innocuous name should properly be private power projects. They are….

Interjection. N. Macdonald: Oh, the minister says: "Let's call them green power projects." It is all of that terminology that makes them sound innocuous and benign. The only thing green about them is the money that's being stuffed in private developers' projects. That is the green part of it. You look at the environmental impacts of these projects, which are substantial. All of it, if it was to be done, should be done publicly so that there is a public good, so that in the end we own it. All we do is give it away. So let's come back. Interjection. N.

Macdonald: It sounds like the Minister of Envi- ronment wants to speak again. As I say, the invitation is that if you want to speak, you can stand up and tell us why the money that was announced in…. Deputy Speaker: Member, through the Chair. N. Macdonald: The minister has every right to stand up and explain why items that were talked about in this year's budget speech somehow show up in last year's budget, get stuffed in there so it doesn't show up. When he doesn't keep to his budget, a law that he campaigned on, a law that he voted for, he casually breaks. It asks…. Interjection. N.

Macdonald: Well, the Minister of Tourism is get- ting in here too. The minister asks: didn't I vote for it? Here I'm talking about Bill 5, which deals with the minister's salary. I'm also talking about the bill in 2001 that the ministers supported and fully understand and campaigned on, the idea of ministerial accountability. The question I have is…. If those ministers want to stand up and explain the rationale for something being put into last year's budget and the way that it was, I'd be happy to hear it. It seems to me that's an explanation that is very carefully avoided.

So I guess with that, I can give a whole list of other projects, other promises that were made that have turned out to nothing — open cabinet meetings, not using public money for advertising, the most open and accountable…. How's all that going? Interjection. N. Macdonald: Oh, and the Minister of Revenue from not quite his seat gives a comment. He tells me to sit down.

TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10201 Let's talk about one other thing. Let's talk about the convention centre. In terms of promises not kept — and the convention centre expansion project is cer- tainly something that th e members will like me to speak about — I remember that minister standing up, thumping his chest and ta lking about $495 million on time, on budget. Well, how is that going? How did that promise work out? On time, on budget. Well, not on time. Well, not on budget — $495 million. What are we at? About a billion.

And in terms of a billion, I think a billion is about the sum that was being thrown onto last year's budget. Interjection. Deputy Speaker: Member. N. Macdonald: I've got an audience here, and I'll continue. So I guess the invitation I would make to that min- ister is: you have an opportunity to speak. Interjection. N. Macdonald: I do have to watch my time, don't I? You do have an opportunity to speak. You can explain how your compatriots here deserve the right…. Excuse me. The minister can explain how his compatriots are willing, are able to break a piece of legislation that that minister voted for.

That minister voted for a bill that said th at ministers who break their budget, who can't keep to their budget, and all the flowery words…. I went back and looked at what Mr. Farrell-Collins said. I mean, wonderful speeches, high rhetoric, all these things that we're going to do, a new era — a new era this government campaigned on, a new era they talked about as they introd uced the legislation. But there's something very old now about the idea of mak- ing a promise and not being able to keep to it. Like I say, Rafe Mair has a list of 50.

I'm sure we could easily come up with a list of a hundred. [1500] I realize that my time is coming to an end. If the ministers are going to make how many thousands on this, they get their…. It woul d be interesting to see the figure. What is it — $20,000? Interjection. N. Macdonald: Yeah. The least that they can do to earn their money is to have to sit here and listen to this from me. So with that, I thank you very much for the opportunities. It sounds like the Minister of Revenue would like to get up, and he's welcome to do that. I, for one, will be speaking against Bill 5.

I think we trivialized the promises that politicians make and that we need to do a better job at making promises that we intend to keep. Interjections. N. Macdonald: Trivializing, trivializing. With that, Madam Speaker, I thank you. Interjection. Deputy Speaker: Member. Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Members. Order. Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Member. Order. Minister. Order. R. Fleming: I'm pleased, I think, to be speaking to Bill 5 this afternoon, although it's interesting that this legislation seems to come in pretty much as predicta- bly as spring changes season every year.

When it comes time to amend the bu dget and make sure that for the seventh year in a row running, no cabinet min- ister, even though they've overspent their particular ministerial budgets, suff ers the indignity and the original accountability in this legislation of a pay cut of their 20 percent holdback. We see this kind of bill happen every time, early in the session, to make amends and to make sure that once again the escape hatch for ministers to not suffer the indignity of a 20 percent pay cut from overspending their budgets and their ministries doesn't actually directly hit them in the pocket book .

That accountability is actually subverted yet again. There's a long list of ar eas where the budgets have been overspent. The previous speaker, the member for Columbia River–Revelstoke, did a good job of reminding the Legislature again of the convention centre cost over- runs. I think that's a great example of the mad loopholes in this legislation that allow ministers to escape any accountability for poor decision-making or anything happening under their ministry, right before their own eyes.

It actually subverts the very notion in our parliamentary democracy of the concept of ministerial accountability and responsibility. Something like that can happen in your ministry. You can have legislation that proposes to be visionary, that gives the taxpayers of B.C. the comfort that if a minister is doing a bad job and they overspend in their area, they're going to get a 20 percent pay cut. Maybe they'll even be fired from their job, although we haven't seen that happen and although there have been many deserving cases where it should have happened, including to some individuals in the House right now.

But I'll leave that aside. In the case of the convention centre…. I can't think of a better illustration. Here we have the largest cost overrun in B.C. history for any capital project — period — of any government — an all-time record for cost overrun, overspending by 400 million bucks. The member previous from Columbia River mentioned that government had loved to go out and announce every

10202 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 year that $495 million is the total cost of this project. "Count on it. Judge us. Evaluate us. It won't go over a dollar over." Then we saw it go to $535 million. Then we saw it go to $590 million. Then we saw it go into the $600 millions. Then there was a long pause, and we saw it go into the range of $800 million. Now I would suggest we're in the range of a billion. Who knows? Officially, it's $893 million. [1505] You know what? The minister has never, ever been held to account under this legislation for any of those cost overruns three years in a row.

It proves that the value of this legislation — that there isn't any, that it's useless legislation. In fact, it doesn't give the taxpayers any comfort that there's anything personally on the line that actually judges the performance of a minister. I can't think of a better example than the trade and con- vention centre that illustrates that point. Even the consultants — there's no accountability for them. The content consultants that got rich on that pro- ject and are maybe even still billing on that project, and the PavCo structure — that built that.

They didn't suf- fer any penalties either, and neither did the minister. So it begs to ask the question: where is the account- ability? Under this act, it never winds up back here, and it never winds up in the minister's office. There is no reckoning. There is no fu ll circle. There is no check and balance in this legislation. It's fake legislation, de- signed to address the public's yearning for accountabil- ity. Desperately, they do want to see government work better.

They want to see decisions that are made recon- ciled against results in terms of performance on pro- jects and on the annual operations of a ministry. This legislation is a mocker y of that, because it never happens.

There isn't one example ever, since this legisla- tion was adopted, of a single cabinet minister ever suf- fering the indignity of a holdback on their salary for the performance of their ministry, although every year, as sure as the flowers come out in the spring, as I said, we see this type of bill come before the House in the nick of time to save any minister before the date might become so close that they would suffer a 20 percent pay holdback for overspending in their ministries. I want to look at one element of Bill 5 here.

My col- league from across the way, the Minister of Advanced Education, isn't in the House, but he owns some of this year's bill — $72 million in Bill 5, ostensibly an overspend in the Ministry of Advanced Education. Additional funds for Science World and some of the research agencies — Crown agencies, that are invo lved with research in the province — are involved in that overspend. You know, it's interesting for a number of reasons. While the minister has failed to keep to the budget pro- jections — the spending, the actuals are now out of line with what was budgeted last year — he gets to over- spend.

He gets to bring in a bill here with other minis- ters and supplement that budget. There are 26 public post-secondary institutions in this province, and I can tell you that nearly every one of them last year at some point…. Their boards of gov- ernors struggled with defi cits themselves. They had costs that were higher than anticipated. They had en- rolment projections that were wrong, and they had to scramble to anticipate the cost. But, you know what? None of them, not one of those institutions, got to overspend their budget and go into deficit. They didn't have a magic wand that bailed them out at year-end.

They had to deal with the fiscal realities. They had to deal with real legislation that constrained their ability to spend, as ag ainst what they were allo- cated. UBC had a $30 million deficit that they were struggling with midyear last year, which they managed to wrestle down. They had to do program cuts. The minister knows about that because we talked about them in estimates. And he knows about that because the university has been talking to them about that. We've seen the same thing in institution after institution. Community colleges — university colleges around British Columbia — are in deficit positions.

But come year-end, when they're audited, they will have a balanced budget sheet because they are not allowed under legis- lation to go into deficit. They don't have the ability to come into this place and say: "Please could we have some more money," and "Can you put it into a bill like this?" It doesn't happen. You know what's really interesting? It's that you think the minister might learn his lesson from Bill 5. He's asking us now for $72 million more…. You'd think the 2008-09 budget might ac tually learn something from the overspending in that fiscal year by building it into the base budget, but you know what?

The budget actually goes down next year, interestingly enough. [1510] So are we going to be in this position again next year, where the magic wand is waved in the Legislature to bail them out yet again? I can't for the life of me explain how the minister overspends this year, asks for $72 million in t h i s b i l l a n d t h e n p r o j e c t s t h a t n e x t y e a r h e ' l l n e e d $ 3 7 million less, in terms of the allocation for the increase in this ministry. This is a big, complicated $2.2 billion minis- try that was overspent this year, and it's being allocated less in 2008-2009 than it was in 2007-2008.

There are also cuts in this year's budget that, clearly, they didn't learn from in the previous year as well. I mean, per-student funding is down 3 percent. So you overspend in this budget year, and next year — brilliant — you're going to budget on the basis of needing even less. The institutions will get even less per capita to try and manage the system again in the following fiscal year. There are other elements t oo. The capital budget in the current budget has mysteriously declined by $300 million, from over $700 million to $450 million in capi- tal spending.

I can tell you that administrators around the province would love to know what that means. They have to now deal with the implications of that decision, having only learned about it a couple of weeks ago. It's their projec ts which have been budg- eted for. Some of them are underway that now face uncertainty. But they live in the real world. They don't live in the world where the minister gets to come in by legislation here and create more money for himself when he's failed to meet his budget targets.

TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10203 You know who else lives in the real world in this ministry? It's the students that we're educating and training for our labour-market needs, for our research and development, for the jobs of tomorrow. They study and make an investment in themselves — the single best investment they can probably make in their lives. They're going to be disappointed to hear that next year, for the second year in a row, the student aid system in British Columbia has been cut — by 7 percent next year.

It's unbelievable, because the government publishes these goals on the website, saying: "We'd like to expand spaces by 25,000." It acknowledges — doesn't ac- knowledge explicitly, but it's well known — that B.C. graduates fewer credentialed bachelor's degrees than almost any other province and that we have fewer PhD and master's students per capita than other provinces. Yet this is a budget next year that doesn't learn from last year, that projects a cut in spending for student aid programs. It's unbelievable. B.C. colleges are actually telling the minister….

They're going to watch what happens here with the $72 million under discussion, because they've told him that right now they have a $14 million deficit — just in the college sector. I'm leaving aside the big four universities out of this equation, which is the majority of the budget for this ministry, and it will escalate to $30 million in two years. Well, they wanted to see something in this budget that recognized the job that they're doing, the recruit- ment and the targets that they have to meet, the ability that they've absolutely hi t their limit. They've all signed public sector wage accords.

They have costs that are rising. They've made cuts in previous fiscal years. They're projected to have less funding per student going forward. They would like to know why they haven't been listened to when the minister comes to this place repeatedly, year after year, having failed to manage his own budget and creates money for himself. They haven't had any answers to that. The budget elsewhere is doing exactly the same thing for other ministries. You know what's interesting is that there's a silver lining, I think, strategically for the government.

In their overspending, they've put the $72 million and ostensibly called it research and development funds, even though we're talking about Science World and the various councils and agencies that are supported by government.

That gives them some camouflage and some cover from what they've been he aring from the Premier's own Progress Board, from the research community, from university presidents' councils and from inter- provincial comparisons that show that B.C. ranks ninth out of ten in terms of per-capita, university-based research and development funding. [1515] "The best place on earth" is ninth out of ten in R- and-D funding. There are serious implications for that. That means we're running ninth in an area that gener- ates the jobs of tomorrow. This is supposed to be a green budget.

You couldn't talk about an area better suited to diversify your econ- omy, to create clean, high-paying, sustainable jobs that actually are researching wh at contribution B.C. can make to the global challenges — some of them around the environment and climate change. You couldn't talk about a sector better suited to make a contribution to that global effort than th e university sector and the research and development that go on there.

We can think of the spinoff companies that have already been produced and the billions of dollars of economic activity that just come from that research cluster in the lower mainland — SFU, UBC and other institutions. What is happening in this bill is that the minister is camouflaging his failure over the years to even listen to M r . P l a n t , w h o t h e y h i r e d o n a n i c e c o n t r a c t t o t a k e a high-level look at the university sector. Well, he recom- mended that B.C.'s position of ninth out of ten in Canada is not a good position. He recommended that we come third.

I don't know why he wanted us to go for the bronze rather than the gold in terms of our placement. That recommendation alone has a $200 million cost implication, and we're not making any steps in this budget to make up that gap, that huge lag, which most definitely contributes to the sagging productivity numbers of labour in British Columbia. The failure to invest in university-based R and D is linked directly to sagging productivity in B.C. We failed to do anything about it. Actually, I shouldn't say failed. I said there's a $200 million gap that Mr. Plant identified.

To his credit, the minister did manage to find $1.5 million, or less than 0.5 percent of the recommended lift to university- based R and D, in the budget next year. What he's doing in this bill is camouflaging his overspending in his ministry last year by trying to call Science World and the other Crown agencies "R-and-D spending." It's not what we're talking about. It's not what's identified in those reports. It's not directly supporting graduate students and researchers in our university community in the activities that are outlined in the B.C. Progress Board's report.

I think this bill makes a mockery of the word "accountability." It makes a mockery of it because, as I said before, there is no reckoning here. There is no closed loop. There is no balance to the check of making a minister accountable for the budget in his or her area if they overspend. It's an esca pe clause. It's used every year. It's as predictable as the sun setting or rising every day. Every year this happens — seven years running. This legislation talks the ta lk of accountability.

Brit- ish Columbians had expectations for it to deliver on that, but the performance every year is to see every cabinet minister of this government escape any accountability, any cost in their pocket for overspending in their ministry. That's not the way the real world works. That's not the way the 26 presidents of our colleges and uni- versities in this ministry work. They have to make the tough choices and the sacr ifices and the decisions.

10204 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 4, 2008 The minister gets to come in this place, vote himself this thing and escape accountability. For that reason, I will oppose Bill 5. S. Simpson: I'm pleased to get an opportunity to stand up and speak to the Ministerial Accountability Bases Act, 2007-2008 — Bill 5. It's an interesting bill, as we know. The original ministerial accountability act was brought in by this government around five years or so ago. The purpose of this was, with a great amount of fanfare, to hold ministers accountable.

They would, in fact, be held accountable for meeting their budgets and for managing their ministries properly. That was the intention of this. We now are into looking at what has become the common practice, which is a bill like Bill 5. It happens every year. Since this legislation was brought in about five years or so ago, we've had si

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0304pm 09
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0304pm 09
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d4165188c4d6bfdb29d250d19bf40ce55d87552c

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