Volume 4 ,. PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, APRIL 7, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 26

April 7, 1975 The House met at 11:00 A.M. Mr, Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 1080 (morning) The honourable Member from Bonavista South. IB-1 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to stand on a point of personal privilege with reference to a motion that has been put before this honoura~le House by the Member from Hermitage asking that I retract statements that I made in a debate on the previous day, last Wednesday. Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation in totally retracting any unparliamentary statements or any kind of derogatory comments made in the heat of debate last Wednesday.

I do this knowing that now it will prevent the need for this kind of motion we have before the House and to prevent the waste of the time of this honourable House of Assembly debating such a motion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is this in order? Your Honour has not ruled on the motion yet. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The motion was made by the honourable Member for Hermitage and realizing the honourable Member for Bonavista South was out of town on the Select Committee on Fisheries I subsequently advised the honourable Member for Hennitage that I would withhold any ruling on the matter until the Member for Bonavista South was back in his place and the honourable Member for Hermitage agreed with that. The honourable Member for Bonavista South has returned to his place and saw fit to do in essence exactly what the honourable Member for Hermitage requested in his motion of privilege.

The Chair at least is satisfied that this settled the matter. MR. SIMMONS : If I may, Mr. Speaker. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, what the honourable Gentleman for Bonavista South has just done certainly satisfies for my purposes the intent of the motion that was put before the Chair a few days ago. I would like to thank the member for withdrawing. That was my concern. I was very upset with it at the time, I did not see the need for such language. Now 3250

April 7, 1975 Tape 1080 (morning) that the member has withdrawn, well, obviously there is no need to proceed with the motion. 325b IB-2

April 7, 1975. Tape 1081 RH - 1 ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to put a question to the honourable the Premier. Would the honourable the Premier care to indicate to the House what kind of a position Newfoundland is going to take at the First Ministers' Conference on Energy? Will the Premier indicate to the House whether they have thrown up their anns, that there is going to be an increase and the Premier and the government accepts that without a fight? Are they going to fight any increase in gasoline and heating fuel? MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. PREMIER F. D. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the government's position will be made very clear tomorrow at the conference. There are many issues to be discussed as the state of the economy generally as well as the prices of oil and gas. We have said as far as the price of oil and gas is concerned that because of transportation difficulties, because of our remoteness here, of course we need assistance and any increase in that price of oil and gas will have be phased in over a period of time.

But also we feel very strongly that the Provinces as such very difinitely should have the benefits of their own resources. This is almost a cornerstone of the principle of Confederation, whether it applies to some resource in Newfoundland or whether it is a resource in Alberta and that principle must be established,in our opinion,realizing at the same time that because of the oil and gas crisis as it was, because of the tremendous impact it has had with the rise happening so quickly, realizing that it is going to take time to do it.

We feel that when this happens that the equalization formula of the Federal Government should be adapted to suit that. Now, that has got to take time because the effect on the Federal Treasury would be quite horrendous if it happened overnight. But the Federal Government are the only government that have the ability to derive the amounts of mon~y necessary from taxation. They are the only ones that have the tools to do the taxation which should be

April 7, 1975. Tape 1081 RH - 2 supported by all Canadians, but we agree that it should take time. MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Do I understand then from the Premier's answer that the government has an alternative plan, that his government has an alternative plan to try to get the equalization payments changed? Will, if they are changed, will the administration pass on any adjustment on the equalization to the people to subsidize the cost of gasoline and heating fuel? PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, until the conference itself has been completed it is too early to say that.

Until the findings of that conference have been arrived at it would be wrong for 0us to prejudge what is going to happen here, but certainly after the conference is over, the second day in camera, quite gladly will I make a report to the House when I get back. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice who was not in his seat the other day, Sir, when I put this question to his colleague, the House Leader. Would the Minister of Justice indicate to the House whether or not he has received a petition from the school children in St.

Lawrence High School concerning a port of call for CN boats on the Burin Peninsula? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. HON. T. A. HICKMAN: Mr, Speaker, I understand that there has been a copy of a petition which has been sent to Ottawa by the school children of St. Lawrence. It has been sent to me soliciting my support in their submission to their member of Parliament for Burin­ Burgeo, namely that the report of the Dalton Commission be, in effect, ignored by the Government of Canada and that St. Lawrence be chosen by the Government of Canada as the port of call for one of the ferries.

I have no hesitancy at all, Mr. Speaker, in supporting that kind of a petition, none at all. I hope that the Government of Canada and that the member of Parliament for that area in arriving at the final decision,because that decision has to be made by the Federal Government - we have no jurisdiction. We have not been called upon ', as a Provincial Government to become involved nor should we. As a member 3258

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1082 Page 1 - mw for the district I have no hesitancy in supporting the St. Lawrence petition. But I do hope that when the Minister of Transport, acting upon the advice of his colleague the Minister of Regional and Economic Expansion, makes that agonizing decision that he will take into account some of the social needs, the social problems that exist in the town of St. Lawrence. St. Lawrence is in desperate need of an alternative industry. There is no question about it that it can make a far more compelling case than any port along the South Coast of this Province. And I do hope that Mr.

Jamieson will have the heart, I am sure he will, to take that into account. Insofar as the navigational requirements are concerned, there seems to be a division of opinion amongst master mariners as to the adequacy of the harbour. The people of St. Lawrence advise me that in their opinion the St. Lawrence harbour can adequately accommodate the Ambrose Shea, the Princess of Tasmania or any other ferry running between Argentia and North Sydney. And I have seen boats there loading product from the mines at St. Lawrence,which are certainly as large as the ferries . There is no doubt at all, Mr.

Speaker, that from the point of view of convenience to CN, St. Lawrence is the place where that boat should stop. Because right now on the present run between Argentia and North Sydney the Ambrose Shea passes within six miles of the mouth of St. Lawrence harbour. In fact I have stood on the deck and you can identify the houses as you are going by. So that that boat can go in there without any real delay, Mr. Speaker, to the CN. So location-wise there is no doubt that St. Lawrence has an edge over any other port. And I do hope, as I say, it is totall, federal and the people of St.

Lawrence recognize this, the Mayor of St. Lawrence has said the same thing, he realizes that it is totally and exclusively the responsibility of the Government of Canda~ but if my support of the petition that has been sent to Ottawa from St. Lawrence will help, then I gladly support it, and I do hope that we will get a very sympathetic and understanding decision and get it quickly. 325~

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1082 Page 2 - mw Because, Mr. Speaker, before I sit down, may I point out to this House that this matter has been on the go now since 1971 or 1970. This is the second report that has been received by the Government of Canada on this same issue. The first was from a co11DDittee or a commission - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: - chaired by Mr. H. R. Lake of Fortune. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair feels that just as questions should be short and precise perhaps so should the answers. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question,of the minister, Sir.

Can I take it from the minister's answer, Sir, that the position of the minister and the administration is that they would prefer to see St. Lawrence made a port of call in preference to Marystown? Is that what the minister is saying? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, may I repeat AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. HICKMAN: - the administration, the Government of Newfoundland, so there can be no mistake about it, knows the fields in which it has jurisdiction and there it will make decisions whenever it is called upon so to make.

This happens to be a matter that falls exclusively within the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada, and the Government of Newfoundland has never been called upon nor will it ever be called upon by the Government of Canada to become involved in this matter or to take a position. Now let me say, as the member for the Burin district, M.H.A. Burin, that I wholeheartedly support the petition that has been sent to the Government of Canada by the good people of St. Lawrence and that should be the port of call for the ferries. That is Alex Hickman's position and maybe nobody else's, but it is mine. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir. Would the Minister of Mines and Energy care to indicate to the House whether or not he has received any representation from the town of Marystown in the minister's district to proceed with plans to have Marystown made a port of call for the CN ferry? 3200

Apr:ll 7, 1975 Tape 1083 (morning) IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. _JION. L. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): Mr. Speaker, I do not recall any formal communication to that effect, but, of course, I have been dealing on an informal basis with the council, with various constituents in Marystown. I might add that I was happy to see my recommendations to Mr. Dalton incorporated almost verbatim in the conclusions that he reached in his report as to the most appropriate site for a stop on the Burin Peninsula for the East Coast ferry.

I think my position and the position of the people in Marystown is as the people, I think, on the Peninsula, generally indicated when this commission was set up. This is an area where it should be taken out of the realm of small,partisan politics. It should be given to an independent board of enquiry or a commissioner. We were happy to see the federal government do this. As I indicated earlier in the media, I support totally the concept of having a stop for the East Coast ferry on the Peninsula.

I support totally the recommendations of the initial step of the federal government to set up the Dalton Commission to enquire into this. I support totally the recommendations of Mr. Dalton that he brought out in his report. I would have to. Could I do any less when he incorporated the recommendations that I made to him in his conclusions? I agree that the matter is settled now. It is just a question of when - AN HONOURARLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Well, my honourable colleague is entitled to his opinion on matters that are not within the jurisdiction of this government~the same as I am,presumably.

It is the federal government that is going to be making a decision there. My honourable colleague is performing the same function I am. He is making strong representation on behalf of his constituents the way that I am making strong representation on behalf of my constituents to the federal government, The question that we both have at the present time i~ when is 3261

April 7, 1975 Tape 1083 (morning) IB-2 the federal government going to act on the recommendations of the conunission. When is it going to act? We ask that the federal government explain what was their purpose in setting up this conunission if they did not intend to accept the recommendations and act upon them. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, maybe I can get the Premier to referee this little bout. Would the honourable the Premier indicate to the Rouse if his government has any official on this matter, any official position on this matter of a port of call on the Burin Peninsula or are they just taking a neutral position?

MR. MOORES: We certainly support the idea of, as the minister said, of a port of call on the Burin Peninsula, and certainly we are putting all the pressure we can on Swift Current not as a point of entry but as a point of decision. We will do the best we can to keep that up. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Righways.

In view of the fact that there are so many roads in the Province impassable at this moment, some of the roads it is impossible for traffic to get over, would the minister indicate to the Rouse if he has any plans to hire any outside equipment to - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, I do not but "Old Conflict of Interest" has some - to try and improve these road conditions so that they can be made passable and the school buses at least can get over them. Perhaps the minister has a report. He brings a report with him every day.

Would the minister also indicate if it was only watchmen who were laid off in the recent layoff in the minister's department or were the winter maintenance men laid off and will the minister's department be sanding and salting roads now in the future or have they abandoned that? In case we get another snow fall, will the minister's department be sanding and salting roads from now on or have they discontinued that for the year? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable ~inister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J.

ROUSSEAU (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTJTION AND COMMUNICATIONS): I know the answer must be as concise as the question,! assume. There were three

April 7, 1975 Tape 1083 (morning) JB-3 questions in effect . The first question - I really do not understand what the honourable member refers to. I do not have my road report this morning, bu t on the last day all the roads were open. They are not 1n the best of driving condi t ions and as J sug~ested co the Rouse on an earlier occasion we are doing everything possible to get the roads in passahle condition where they are not in passable condition. We cannot do that in most instances with sand or gravel . You have co do it with shale or some sort of rock. We are gathering our trucks in units and we are trying to do each of the roads as quickl y as we can. So to 326d

April 7, 1975 Tape 1084 (liorning) PK - 1 my knowledge right now~and I would have to check, and if the honourable member would like to I will bring it to his personal attention, I do not think there are any roads closed in the Province, Most of them are on a half load limit. I would guess that the driving conditions are fair to good on most roads. There are going to be exceptions, of course, but I do not know of any road this morning which is closed,but I could check it out. HR. DOODY: Roaches Line . MR . ROUSSEAU: Pardon? MR. DOODY: Roaches Line. 11R. ROUSSEAU: Roaches Line is all right. AN HON.

MEMBER: It will be open for tonight. .'ffi. ROUSSEAU: In respect to the layoffs - yes, there have been layoffs, of course, the normal layoffs that accrue with the end of the snow clearing season. We have laid off the snow clearing operators. In DistrictTwe laid off about one hundred, that would be St. John's. In District II about 130, that would be Clarenville. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: One hundred in St. John's, District _i, about 130 in District II in Clarenville and the area, and the Burin Peninsula, 256 in Grand Falls !.listrict III and 160 in Deer Lake District IV.

Now Grand Falls had quite a - normally - J\N HON. H£t1BER: Over 500 . MR. ROUSSMU: Yes, well now these are people who were hired on last Fall when we had the problem. Normally what we had during the snow clearing season is double shifts, Now we have single shifts back on again because the cost,of course, is fantastic. So what we do now is we have the people ready to do the sanding, yes. We have the same equipment.

The only difference is now we have men only on one shift rather than the two shifts we had during the \linter, So that if we have a snowfall and we have to do any snow clearing or have any sanding to do we have the people, We normally now work them overtime

whereas before we had two full shifts on. And, of course, there are quite a few people latd off. They will be rehired again next Winter. Our Summer maintenance progralll1I!e is much greater than our - I am sorry, our Winter 3261

April 7, 1975 Tape 1084 -(Mornin

g) PK - 2 maintenance programme is much larger than our Summer maintenance programme. But the ' one shift now can carry out the same job on doing the overtime work because we do not anticipate any great snow storms like we normally have during the Winter. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary to the minister. In laying off those persons how are the decisions made on the basis of seniority or lack of it? MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes,the layoffs are by seniority and according to the union agreement. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Would the minister indicate to the House if this is a record number of men to be laid off around this time of the year? How does this compare to last year for instance? MR. ROUSSEAU: I do not have the figures, but it would not be that much different, although .we did hire a few more people on possibly this year because of the heavy snowfall on the Burin Peninsula and on the East Coast. But that is comparable figures to any other year. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. I believe I heard the minister say that it is strictly on the basis of seniority.

I wonder would he undertake to check out a number of cases that I and the Member for St. Barbe North can put to him which contradicts that - MR. ROUSSEAU: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: We are talking about persons who have been employed, in one case as a trucker, Mr. Speaker, and he has been working for six years. We know of another case where a person was working for sixteen years and was laid off the 1st. of April. Could the minister undertake to investigate this? MR. ROUSSEAU: Let me give this undertaking, do you have any specific names? If you have any specific names I will check the specific names.

If some time during the day you would like to send me over the names I will undertake to check each instance. But we do have to abide py hhe union contract generally. There may be exceptions, If there are there has to be a reason which I will give either of the members. In each instance, if they want to give me the individual names,certainly r, 26' ,:) :::,

April 7, 1975 I will do that. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Tape 1084 (Morning) PK - 3 The Hoo. Member for Bell Island. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the minister care to indicate whether the number of maintenance men that he just read out, I think there is probably somewhere in the vicinity of 600 or 700 hundred, would the minister indicate whether the watchmen laid off are in addition to these 600 or 700 maintenance men or did the minister include those in that figureZ HR. ROUSSEAU: Let us get the watchmen in their proper context.

Now we laid the watchmen off because we have done that in each of the other three districts, 1., II, and IV, and now III which is the one we are talking about, the Grand Falls district,the watclomen were laid off• There were twenty laid off previously and they were absorbed. There are twenty more on the list that I have now who are to be laid off as watchmen between now and the end of April, as watchmen. What we have done now is we have watchmen only in the main depots and the sub-depots.

For purposes of definition in respect to a watchman, a sub-depot is a depot where extensive repairs are held, and in this instance there are only two in the district concerned,Lumsden and Springdale.

Now in the· .. unit depots we will be laying off the watchmen there,but as I undertook in answer to the question previously posed by the honourable Member for Fogo 1who was not here on Thursday,he was at the Select - or Friday he was at the Select Committee hearings, that every effort will be macle to rehire these gentlemen either by an involuntary demotion to a class of labourer or some people might want an early retirement or - but we will ensure that these people are not laid off from the department, they will have another job. Now in respect to the snow clearing operations, you know, we have our 32Gb

April 7, 1975. Tape 1085 normal number of people working with the Department of Highways. During the winter we hire part-time, temporary help to cope with the snow clearing situation and these temporary help that were involved in the snow clearing operations are now being laid off. RH - 1 We will continue to maintain one shift. We will continue to maintain our regular employees on the Summer Maintenance Programme. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Fogo. CAPTAIN E.

WINSOR: In view of the fact that I asked the honourable minister about those watchmen being laid off~and unfortunately I was not here if you gave an answer on Friday, am I to take it now that those watchmen that are to be laid off will be given employment or every effort will be madF to employ them? MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes. I gave that on Friday. We got a number of things. First of all, they have to either accept an involuntary demotion, for example, to a labourers class or they can do another job. They could do that.

As the honourable member knows, many of them are older gentlemen who may want to take early retirement. We will accommodate them there if that is their desire, but in the event that they do not want involuntary retirement and they want to continue working every effort will be made and I cannot say with certainty, but I am fairly certain that we will be able to handle each one of them.

We will do everything possible because people with eight, t .. n, fifteen, nineteen years of seniority with the department in this job~certainly the department has no desire to see these men terminated without work, unless they themselves desire it. We have to work out something and with this seniority I am sure we will. ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House resolve itself into Colill1littee of Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please! Industrial Development, Head XV. 1501-01 MR. DOODY: Mr. Chairman, we spent some time on this on Friday ~l2 6 i

April 7, 1975, Tape 1085 RB - 2 aft~on. We went through the general structure of the department and the aims and objectives. I have finished explaining t:he aims and objectives of the NORDCO .operatio .n which we have set: up or are in the pi'ocess of setting up. I explained at some length the difficulties in attracting capital, risk capital particularly, to the Province for the establishmen .t of industry. The second greatest difficulty which we feel is facing the establishment of b~iness and industry here is the JIUUla&ement situation, the lack of trained or knowledgeabJ.e management.

To try to overcome to a certain ext.ent the management situation, we have organized a secti.on of the Newfoundland and Labrador DeVelopment Corporationland I will sp~ further on that a little later on. AlsQ, we have organized an organization called NIMAT, the l\lewfoundland Institute for Management, Advancement and Tl:aining. Now, this is a 326tl

April 7, 1975 Tape No.1086 NM - 1 private, non-profit organization. It is composed of representatives of business in the adult education faciliti es, both at the universit y and outside. We hope to have them co-ordinate the various activities of these training agencies and to bring out into the Province the opportunities for people to take advantage of courses in elementary bookkeeping, labour relations and so on. We feel that this will go a long way toward improving that situation. In the development and promotion area of the department we have the assessment and research vote, the

section of which is that Newfoundland Institute for Management Advancement and Training which I have explained. And we also have the studies and consultant services. Now I am sure honourable gentlemen are very interested in the studies and consutltant services. The vote of last year is $220,000 and 1503-01. We have undertaken to assist various businesses and various prospects in getting background material and hiring outside consultants where necessary, to augment the resources or the people available in the deparbnent itself.

The Goose Bay Project Group, which is also financed under this subhead has had a rather difficult time during the past year. A group of people were brought together with a view to taking over from the federal government, the Department of Transport, the Ministry of Transport in Goose Bay, the facilities that were surplus to their needs, Toward that end we organized a project group consisting of representatives of the Federal Department of Regional and Economic Expansion 1of Manpower, of Forestry and the Ministry of Transport it~elf.

The Provincial Departments of Industrial Development, Public Works , Manpower and Municipal Affairs, the local businessmen, the Mayor and as ex officio members we appointed or invited to join the Provincial Member for the District, Mr, Woodward and the Federal Member, Mr. Rompkey. This group is to be congratulated on the effort that they have put into the organization of the takeover procedure. And the studies that they have undertaken in terms of industrial opportunities which may be 326~

April 7, 1975 Tape No. 1086 NM - 2 of assistance to Goose Bay in the future. They divided themselves into studying the commercial potential of the airport facilities as well as the industrial opportunities that may be significantly affected by the operation of the Lower Churchill or the project.

The sawmill, wood transportation, wood transmission poles and so on, trucking services, bulk cement stora2e, steel fabrication shop, various other facilities were looked at, but the major difficulty is, as I have explained to this House, has been the inability of the federal government and the provincial government to come together on the takeover procedures. The buildings and land related to the Goose Bay situation itself are relatively, over the period a year, a relatively simple­ transfer.

When we get into the Public Works, the infrastructure, the support facilities up there,we are talkin2 about an estimated cost to the Province of something in the vicinity of $10 million, where you are going to inherit a broken-down or pretty badly delapidated water sewerage system, we are talking about fire prevention services, fire fighting services, street paving, and last butnot least, the generation of electricity, the generation of energy for the area which runs into a considerable amount of money.

The federal government has offered us something in the vicinity of $2.5 million to face these costs and we find that that is not satisfactory at all. What we have

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1087 Page 1 - mw asked most recently in a telegram which we sent them, I think, to confirm our discussions on February 271 to come through with the transfer of the buildings, the houses and the land as one unit and then eventually to take the services, the Public Works, unit by unit and come to a cost-sharing arrangement as we take them over. We have had three replies to that telegram, one of which acknowledged receipt of it, the second of which said that it was going to be considered,and the third said that it would be considered during the second week of April.

So really the people in Goose Bay are as frustrated as they have ever been anr for good reasons. But it certainly has not been the - MR. NEARY: Point of order, Sir. I am sorry to interrupt the minister but when we are putting through important estimates like this, Sir, could we have a quorum in the House because the Select Committee is not travelling today, Sir? MR. CHAIRMAN: Ring the bells. There is a quorum. MR. DOODY: Are the three minutes up now? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Minister of Industrial Development. MR. DOODY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: What are you doing, Treasury Board is it? __!:fil.

DOODY: No, we are on Industrial Development now. The develo-pment and promotion vote under that subhead,in most of the advertising and indeed just about all the lavouts in the audio and visual aids, printing and so on was all originated and ordered from the department itself mostly in housework. Obviously some of the printing had to be done outside the department, but our own people did the layouts and did the subscriptions. MR. NEARY: Was McLean employed? MR. DOODY: No, I am afraid not. We asked for submissions and proposals from various public relations firms but unfortunately MACOMor McLean 3271

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1087 Page 2 - mw Public Relations did not come in with a sufficiently attractive picture so we were - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. DOODY: There is a group called MR. NEARY: International - MR. DOODY: No, there is a group called - wait now,I will get to them in just a second. Mass media advertising, photographic efforts and brochures, audio visual - Dave Myles,a local chap, did a tremendous amount of it, and there is an outfit called - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) homes. MR. DOODY: Oh, well he surv:i.ved that and came on to greater things with the Department of Industrial Development. MR.

NEARY: . (Inaudible). MR. DOODY: Well he has gone through two Baptisms of fire and survived and now he can finish the article. He is doing a complete job. Now the major firm was the one called P.R.S.L., Public Relations Services Limited. MR. NEARY: Who is that? MR. DOODY: It is a Toronto firm. They were $39,000. But they are not associated with - MR. NEARY: What is the name of the firm? MR. DOODY: P.R.S.L., Public Relations Services Limited. We found that they were something less than satisfactory. We have asked - I have a pretty long dissertation here, on how that particular firm was chosen.

Would you care for me to run into it? There is 327Z

... April 7, 1975. Tape 1088 RH - 1 a lot of Madison Avenue jargon here which you will have to forgive me for it is not . - the verbiage is not mine but it says I asked for our department back last year for advice on how they intended picking the public relations people for the firm and they gave me the following rationale. It is now apparent that after significant interdepartmental discussions that we can now realistically define the promotional requirements of our department for this coming year. In the past we have operated on the premise that we should maximize our use of in-house and in-Province talent.

This, it is felt, we should continue to do so. However, as expected, certain services and capabilities are not available tc us in sufficient quantity or quality in the Province to suit our requirements. We have identified these areas and are convinced an efficient programme next year must include these elements if we are to operate a proper programme. The first area of concern is the general public relations field. There is only partial local capabilities available to us in this area, particularly when we consider our international requirements.

With this in mind it appears necessary that we will have to contract for this particular expertise outside the Province. A second area of concern is that of audio visual services. It is hoped that in the coming year the department would produce a number of audio visual aids, film strips, slides, etc., that may be used in seminar, exhibition and conference settings for promotional purposes. We have discovered that the technical capability to produce such audio visual pieces is available in the Province through Atlantic Films and Electronics Limited.

However, the creative and production capa­ bilities appear not to exist locally and again we must look elsewhere for the service. A third void in our promotional programme to date has been proper media research. In other words, an appraisal of the media which we should be using for advertising given the market we wish to reach. This service is not available in any form within the Province. It can be contracted for either on a piecemeal basis or as part of a total package with an 327J

April 7, 1975. Tape 1088 RH - 2 organization capable of this work and other services as well. Related to media research is, of course, media placement, purchasing of space in line with the described programme as set out as a result of the media research previously undertaken. Again, there is some limitation for the capability to undertake this work for usin the Province. Having discussed this locally, we find that financialconstraints ,provide the major stumbling block.

In order for a company to place media advertising, it is necessary to finance this placement between the time the insertion order is placed with the mediA and the invoice is paid by our department. At times this amount of money can amount to several thousands of dollars and carrying charges and interest rates present problems for the small,~ccredited adver- tising firms in this Province.

For this reason, I feel it wise to divide our media placement into two categories, national and inter- national and to allow a local firm to place our national programme, the international programme to be handled again by an outside organization. Beyond these specific areas we feel capability exists to undertake all other necessary work for us in our promotional programme, brochures, advertising, layouts, etc. With a view to filling these gaps in our programme, we have undertaken discussions with a number of firms that could provide all services we require in package form.

Our discussions have, through a process of elimination, led us to what appears to be a choice between McConnell Advertising of Montreal and Public Relations Services Limited, P.R.S.L. of Toronto. Attached is correspondence from both these organizations outlining briefly their capabilities and their willingness to work with us in the environment that we have described to them, namely, allowing maximum use of local talent.

In addition to speaking with the firms themselves, we have also undertaken to contact individuals that could provide us with an objective criticism of each firm and also attached are samples by each firm of work done in the past. The reputation of McConnell and P.R.S.L. goes without question. The basic decision is one of retaining the services 3274

April 7 • 1975. Tape 1088 o.f an advertising house as opposed to a public relations firm. Advertising and public relations are both practiced arts of communication. The major difference between the two lies in not what each attempts to do, but in how each communicates to its respective markets. Do you want me to go on with this? AN HONOURA:BLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: It is not, is it? It is awfully dull. But the thing is that they measure the capabilities of both these firms and they decide that P.'R..S.L. - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: Yes, be only too happy to.

RH - 3 MR.NEARY: Well, if the minister will take it, Sir, and let me have a copy, he does not have to finish reading it. MR. DOODY: Be only too happy to. An in- house memo and I 8lll sure that you would be delighted to - Now, the House might also be int.erested at the allDle t:1:me in seeing some samples of the in- house work that our fellows do down there which you might be interested in seeing that in Newfoundland itself we have a capacity of turning out some t>'retty neat and some pretty effective advertising material, brochures, news­ paper layouts and so on. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

DOODY: No, these are done, once again, by Ted Mills and the people in the department dow there. 32 7

April 7, 1975 Tape 1089 (Morning) PK - 1 If any honourable members are interested in looking at any of this stuff it is available to them. MR. NEARY: Send it over here MR. DOODY: Yes, he can have all of this stuff. Would you bring that over to the honourable Member for Bell Island? Let him see how efficiently our department can operate on a limited budget. In addition to the - anyway that covers our promotional area, As you say your major problem has been met. Unfortunately.Mr. George HcLean\my good friend,did not receive any of the business.

I hope that his submission this year may be more in line with what 'ile feel the department needs. MR. NEARY: What happened to George? MR. DOODY: If it is I will have absolutely no hesitation - as I say if he does come in with a submission that is acceptable to the department I will have absolutely no hesitation at all in endorsing it. MR. NEARY: What happened to George? HR. DOODY: He is well and happy I understand, you know. MR. NEARY: Was he down in Flordia with the Premier recently? MR. DOODY: I have no idea, Sir. I cannot discuss Mr. McLean's itinerary. He does not confide in me to that extent. MR.

NEARY: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: He does not play tennis. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: The Premier is a very able tennis player and he finds that Mr. McLean is a bit of a hazard on the court. NR. ~RERTS : maybe he can play doubles without a partner. MR. DOODY: That must be the same feeling you have when you read about Roaches Line. AN HON • MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Order! MR. DOODY: I am sorry, Sir. In the same development and promotion area we have, of course, the Argentia Industrrial Park. It is somewhat in the same limbo as the Goose Bay area. 327b

April 7, 1975 Tape 1089 (Morning) PK - 2 But the added complication that it is tied up with the original Base agreement, the lease to the American authorities. Now the Canadian Government are very reluctant, at least that

section of the Canadian Goverrunent 1 the Department of Justice up there is very reluctant to pass over control of the area to the Province of Newfoundland because their fear of a jurisdictional decision which may affect discussions at a later date. To us it appears to be a rather academic thing and we feel very frustrated and very disappointed that they have not seen fit to see to the requests of the American authorities to turn large sections of Argentia over to us. We have succeeded by giving various guarantees to companies to secure their leases, to obtain part of the area out there.

There are other areas that are available to us and we hope that they will be passed over to us very soon. But unfortunately>as I say> the Department of Regional Economic Expansior, and the Ministry of Transport are quite anxious,I feel 1 to facilitate us in this respect, but the legal people in Ottawa are seeing things somewhat differently. In any event there is a $70,000 vote there which is going to be necessary to construct an access road, put in some security fencing and to repair and restore the water and sewerage system in the area.

The Atlantic Provinces Economic Council, the APEC situation is one that has not changed. It has been a vote that has come out of the Department of Regional Economic Development and recently out of Industrial Development. It may serve some useful purpose. I imagine it does, but quite honestly gentlemen it is - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. DOODY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. DOODY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. DOODY: No, you are not going to Japan. I do not know if it does or not. Who is not going? Inaudible. Who is not? " Tom "? Inaudible.

The next area of interest I feel is the OPIAC Division of the department which was set up some time ago as an Offshore Petroleum Industrial Advisory Council when we got involved in the original offshore activity of the oil companies. It was felt that the Provinc .e of Newfoundland was at a disadvantage in many ways in not 32TI

l\pril 7, 1975 Tape 1089 (Morning) PK - 3 knowing exactly how we should handle the potential spinoff, if you will excuse the expression, benefits that may accrue to t he Province from a major petroleum strike off our shores. And so to maximize the public benefit and to minimize social disruption and to get the Newfoundland business and social community involved in the potential development,we set up a council called OPIAC. This group has been meeting fairly regularly. They have been more of an advisory group rather than an active industrial group up to now.

They have prepared pape rs and submitted them to government on such things as the impact of an offshore development on fisheries, manpowe~ training, industrial assessment, marine services, the impact on municipal services in certain areas, and social development and so on. This group now,whicb is twenty­ four people in number,may he a little bit heavy or a little large 327t:J

April 7, 1975 Tape No. 1090 NM - 1 We are looking at it in terms of maybe reducing it in size now that a lot of the study has been done and maybe it is going to be necessary.

I think it is going to be essential really that since the emphasis on the activity has moved considerably away from where it was originally thought to exist, off the Grand Banks, and has now moved to the shores of Labrador~ it is going to be essential that representation from that area be appointed to the OPIAC Board and we feel that some of the native groups up there, the Innuit Brotherhood, the Native People and the ome of the white settlers there, the councils' representatives, the representatives of the municipal councils on the coast should be added to OPIAC, so we are taking some steps along that line.

We have recently recruited as a full-time Executive Director of OPIAC a Mr. Peter Furlong, whom I am pleased to have with us. Mr. Furlong is a Newfoundlander, a graduate of Memorial University and a petroleum enginer with AMOCO until recently. So we feel that the work that this group is doing is more that justified, the relatively small expense involved in their operation 1and we hope to hear a great deal more from them as it goes along. There were other studies and things that were done there that I am sure honourable members would be interested in.

We had a rural development study done for the Bay D'Espotr area which Ottawa cost-shared with us and an inspection survey for the planned Argentia Industrial Park. The Bay D'Espoir Area Study, has that been tabled? Have you ever seen a copy of that? MR. NEARY: No, but we would like to have a copy of it. MR. DOODY: It can be done. MR. NEARY: Could we have a copy? MR. DOODY: Yes, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Now? MR. DOODY: I do not see why - let me look under my copious vault here. MR. MURPHY: Bag of goodies. MR. DOODY: Oh yes, look at this. Is that not a coincidence? I just happened to have it with me. 327~

April 7, 1975 Tape No. 1090 AN HON. MEMBER: In your purse? MR. DOODY: No. I do not want to read it do you? please,and give it to the Member for the District. NM - 2 Take that one, Here is the latest woods report and here is a Bay D'Espoir Report done by Maritime Consultants on a fish plant. We are planning a fish plant for the area,if you remember that. We had hoped to get a major fish processing establishment there in the Bay D'Espoir area. A group called Maritime Consultants,r think the name was - MR. MURPHY: I heard you say - MR. DOODY: No. No. No.

We did all the work on the thing and then we sent up to Ottawa for their assessment from environment and sa on. If I could just find that letter now, we could solve some problems for the honourable Member for Hermitage I suppose a little later on. I know May 31 of last year we sent a letter to Mr. Jack Davis and one to Mr. Ja111ieson outlining the proposal ,or the fish plant at St. Alban's and asking for their thoughts on it. On December 12 of last year we got a reply from Mr.

Le~lanc and he says that, he refers to our letter of May 31 addressed to his predecessor and a proposal for a large fish plant development at St. Alban's. Officials of the Fisheries and Marine Service that reviewed the consultant's report and recommended that the project should not be supported.

It is their view that the proposed site is poorly located in relation to future catch expansion possibilities, and since there is already too much graundfish processing capacity in Newfoundland in relation to existing catch levels, the construction of another plant would only increase the problems now being faced by the industry. So unfortunately the proposed plant for the St. Alban's area never did get beyond that stage. It was certainly not for want of effort.

I know that the DREE people, as well as ourselves, are most interested and most anxious to get it set up there, but once they ran into the difficulties with Environment fanada there was little or nothing that could be done beyond that stage. 3200

April 7, 1975 Tape No. 1090 NM - 3 MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR . DOODY: Well) there is really no great fishing done up to the head of the bay. The fishing areas are down in the Hermitage end of it and Gaultois. SOME HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: Who are you talking to now? Are you talking to me? I was saying that there is no great fishing capacity, there is no fishing capacity period up at the head of the bay, up in the St. Alban 1 s area. The fishing is done down in the Gaultois and Hermitage and that end of the district. 3281

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1091 Page 1 - mw Anyway the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation is a major part of the operation or at least a major part of the responsibility quite apart from their recent and supportive and short-lived interest in the seal fishery. MR. NEARY: What are the Development Loan Corporation doing? MR. DOODY: Yes. Well 1I tabled and read and gave to the member just a few days ago a list of the loans by sector and by district. MR. NEARY: Can you give us the names? MR. DOODY: The names of the people to whom the loans were given?

No, the honourable member asked for that also, and I was very reluctant t~ do that without first consulting with the Minister of Regional and Economic Expansion who shares the responsibility with me for the expenditures of that division, and I sometimes feel - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) - what is wrong with that? That is conmon knowlege. MR. DOODY: Well, sure,if it is conmon knowledge you must have it, MR. NEARY: No, it should be common knowledge, MR. DOODY: Oh, it should be common knowledge. Well let me give you some of the names, Sir, that I have in front of me - MR. NEARY: No, we want the whole list, not some. MR.

DOODY: No, I will give you all the ones that I have here. I am not saying that this is all of them because I do not know, but I have been told that this is the first - MR. NEARY: Well send it over. MR. DOODY: - in depth review of organization, operations and finance with observations and reconmendations for 1973 to 1975. It may be a bit heavy for the honourable member so I will just read parts of it to him. MR. NEARY: ~end it over. MR. DOODY: Technical assistance, the financial analysis

section in co-operation with the technical services

section has been involved

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1091 Page 2 - mw with a number of clients in the following areas: analysis of and assistance with client accounting procedures and preparation or client proposals for assistance in various government programmes. In the first instance the assistance has been as follows: - now this is analysis and assistance not money, eh - Maritime Bedding and Upholstery Limited of Stephenville, the establishment of an inventory control system; George Sexton Limited of Bloomfield, Bonavista Bay, complete revision and administration of all accounting procedures; A.

Northcott Limited, Lewisporte, product cost analysis for their fifty products; Bay Bulls Sea Products Limited, Bay Bulls, analysis of their accounting system; Southern Fisheries, Bay L'Argent, analysis of their accounting system; Stephenville Electronics Limited, Stephenville, analysis of their accounting control systems; Rayo Forest Enterprises Limited, Gamba, analysis and assistance with their accounting and control systems,and Canadian Cushion Craft Limited, Topsail Road, assistance with financial control. A number of clients have been assisted in preparing proposals for government in private sources of funds.

These include, Maritime Bedding and Upholstery Limited, Stephenville. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. DOODY: It was, yes,at one time but he is not associated with it now. MR. NEARY: Who owns it now? MR. DOODY: It is owned by the - what is his name, the chap who got the - I cannot remember his name. It will come to me in a few minutes. I will give it to you shortly. He is the chap who was involved in it from the beginning. He put an awful lot of money into it, an awful lot of his own private capital and money that he borrowed.

He mortgaged himself up to the hilt with the best of intentions and unfortunately he has been something less than successful. This is the same company. You are thinking of the hockey stick operation and the whole bit. Well 1this is the only surviving part of it which is this Maritime Bedding and it is a very marginal operation. Maritime

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1091 Page 3 - mw Bedding and Upholstery Limited, Stephenville, a proposal to the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation of the Department of Industrial Development, they are looking for further financial assistance which was not forthcoming; Pelcon Limited, Octagon Pond, a proposal for DREE, and a number of private investors; Ralland Forest Enterprises Limited, Bay D'Espoir, a proposal for DREE; Bay Bull Sea Products Limited; Woodstock Lumber Company Limited - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. DOODY: I do not know. They do not give the name of the principal, Sir.

The Woodstock Lumber Company Limited, LaScie: Canadian Cushion Crafts Limited, Topsail Road. I think that is that group of fellows who are trying to get the hovercraft thing going. Whitten Fish Oils Limited, St. John's; Fort Amherst Sea Foods Limited; Lloyd Stuckless, Glenwood; S. T. Jones - MR. NEARY: Fort Amherst Sea Foods? MR. DOODY: That is this on-going caplin - MR. NEARY: Canning. MR. DOOY: This one, as I remember, was not a canning operation. This one was smoked and corned caplin which they are putting up in individual portions for restaurant or tavern trade. MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: Grog bits. Grog bits. S.

T. Jones and Sons Limited, Little Bay Islands; Higdons Fisheries Limited, Little Harbour; George Hutchings, Corner Brook, a proposal for private lending institutions, whatever that means - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. DOODY: Whether it was or whether it was not, he did not get any money so it is really not that important. The Department of

April 7, 1975. Tape 1092 RH - l Fisheries assistants who budget for Fisheries Advisory Board and so on. Now, technical assistants, they compile compilations of a Nnfoundland sawmill directory, consumer mail survey for R.K.O.

Industries in Stephenville, stone cutting equipment specks for Glovertown, productivity assessment for Rail Forest Industries, charcoal and manufacturing specifications for a firm in Corner Brook, pressed log fire investigation for another fire log investigation, hardwood wood turning investigation in conjunction with a United States firm, sawmill investigation for New England and the Maritimes, offshore oil related industries, initial investi­ gation for hydrator dairy operation, steel drum manufacture from Corner Brook. I do not know who that could be. MR. NEARY: These are all feasibility studies. MR.

DOODY: These are all feasibility studies, the actual loans. Now, have we got that here, I wonder? Maybe I will look at the list of contents now and see if we got a list of loans attached here. If they have not, we will have to try to get it for the honourable gentleman. MR. NEARY: Well, that is very important. - MR. DOODY: Yes, I know, because the witch hunt. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: It should be published, that is what I am saying, see, this should be published right across Canada if it is going to be published at all. This is why I was hoping to hear from Mr.

Jamieson on it because the Federal Government puts in a $20 million loan fund. The Provincial Government puts in a $2 million equity fund and so we feel that the Federal Government really should have a say about whether or not these names are published. I agree with you. I do not think they would have any objection anyway. So, I will try to get it. It is not here anyway. There is another great list of feasibility studies and technical studies and so on that they have done, informations and regional profile stuff and all this sort of thing. 328t,

April 7, 1975. Tape 1092 RH - 2 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: MR.NEARY: This is the only one I have got. I will get you one. Have any of these ever materializEd - MR. DOODY: Some of them have, some of them have not, but the important thing is that they are well looked into before money is invested in them and this is one of the major functions, I think, of this organization, is that the things are examined properly from the beginning rather than sometimes a case - MR. NEARY: Never get off the ground. MR.

DOODY: Some of them never get off the ground because they never should, do not deserve to,and others do. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR . DOODY: By and large they are done by the corporation themselves. They have got an in-house staff of some very talented young men, some of whom even have university degrees. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: I do not know if they have done any work - yea, they have done some ~ork with the Extension Service up there, not very much. They have also hired some outside consultants from time to time)as I understand it, but by and large the studies are done by their own group.

So there our equity fund participation in that is a $500,000 amount this year and our operating costs, our share under the agreement is $300,000 of their operating costs. MR. NEARY: Has the Development Corporation started any industries themselves on their own - MR. DOODY: Oh, yes. This Rayo Forest Products is one of their$, That one - the Green Bay Mining operation is theirs. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: No, no, the investment, the money investment in that was a major - MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: Oh! The initiative was local. Yes, that is right. Well, 328b

April 7, 1975. Tape 1092 RH - 3 the initiative also on Rayo Forest Industries was local. In most cases, the initiatives are, have been local. People have come into them with proposals and propositions and with some hurt money of their own and the corporation carried it the rest of the way. MR. SIMMONS: (First

part inaudible) or some other organization? MR. DOODY: No, no, Rayo organization out around Gambo, Rayo. MR. SIMMONS: Oh, yes! I see. Yes, I see, yes. MR. BOODY: Ralland is the South Coast one. Ed Ralph and Strickland. That one they are also involved in - MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: . MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: I presume they got a loan following their feasibility study. Oh, yes. Quite a hefty one, I imagine Osmond or Ralph? No, Ralph • I think they got a rather substantial - I would think so.

A rather substantial one because it is a very - We had results of a substantial DREE involvement in that Ralland one and I remember that was one of the more interesting cases. There was some hesitancy by s011e of the more bureaucratic or technically minded people in the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion and it was a direct involvement of the minister, I think, that made it possible for that Ralland operation to get moving.

As we pointed out 1and the minister agreed completely, if there was ever an opportunity for Regional and Economic Development funding that made sense it was in that very heavy unemployment area of the Bay D'Espoir area. He was quite sympathetic and I think that is going to be a very worthwhile operation when it gets going, despite the fact that the lumber industry as such in the Province is not in the best of shape. But it is a temporary thing and it will come back again. 328'1

i\pril 7, 1975 Tape 1093 (Morning) PK - 1 The fishing vessels construction subsidy - there is nothing in there this year for that. That was a vote last year which covered up to fifteen per cent of the capital cost of constructing fishing vessels at Marystown Shipyard. I think the first major contract down in 1-farystown uas for these National Se~ boats which the government at the time undertook to give a fifteen per cent subsidy and pick up the mortgage and subsidize the building of them in addition to that.

Subsequent to that the next major contract down there, I think, was the Atlantic vessels, and we managed to gut the subsidy considerably on them. We have had several contracts since that time in which no subsidy has been involved, so we have been making considerable progress with regards to the operation of that yard down there. Industry development - purchase of local industries, Pack Atlantic. This is the property that, you remember, was out in the Stephenville area which was unfortunately - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: Pack Atlantic. Do you remember Pack Atlantic, of happy memory?

Pack Atlantic Interfish. It was a herring operation, and it was suppose to be a canning operation. ~1R. NEARY: MR. DOODY: They were associated with it at one time, that is right. But they put in a very sophisticated canning line, and the thing certainly looked fine, and was in its conception or inception. Unfortunately I think had the Development Corporation been in existence at that time or indeed if the Dep~rtment of Industrial Development with the staff that it has now been in existence,the Pack Atlantic situation probably never would have happenEd. The management was a problem. The marketing was a problem.

The resource availability was a problem. Anyway the net result of it was that the thine went insolvent. AN !ION. MEMBER: What thing? MR. DOODY: I think that was shortly before we took office, but it does not matter anyway because the thing does could not work. So the uoshot of it was that the Bank of Montreal,who had the major investment in it , it is only in excess of $1 million as I remember it, """"' .::.1LoD

April 7, 1975 Tape 1093 (Morning) PK - 2 decided to foreclose and so on. The Government of Newfoundland had a hundred and some thousand dollars in it, and DREE had a much larger amount than that involved in it. It was a pretty big bulk.

In any event, the Government of Newfoundland have undertaken to buy the property out there for $300 ,000 0 The property which is located ill1Illediatel y adjacent to the Labrador Linerboard Limited consist of approximately 1,000 feet of wacer frontage and 150 feet of the public wharf at Port Harmon and six buildings, Because of its location relative to the Port Harmon wharf and the need to expand that wharf, government considered it essential to reacquire the wharf and related waterlines.

The buildings which generally are in good repair are ideally situated to provide much needed space to Labrador Linerboard Limited and a portion of the land is ideally located for future industrial development in the area. Consequently it was decided that government should acquire all the land and buildings related to the Pack Atlantic property, and negotiations - MR. NEARY: And turn them over ••.. MR.

DOODY: Well, yes, in effect, we sold it to the Linerboardmill which was all under the same - negotiations with the Bank of Montreal resolved that all equipment would be sold by the Bank and that government would purchase a real property for $300,000. It is now proposed that the dock will be transferred to the jurisdiction of the federal government to enable orderly management of the dock space at Port Harmon.

Two buildings are to be sold to Labrador Linerboard Limited while two other warehouses will be transferred to the company by lease or by sale with the understanding that the land on which they are located be reacquired by government in the future should it be required or for industrial development. A small fish processing building and a meal plant building is being held by government, and it is hoped that a small fishery-related industry can be established . there. There is still hope to use part of the property for a herring packing plant out there for the fishermen. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 328!:J

April 7, 1975 Tape 1093 (Morning) PK - 3 MR. DOODY: Do which? Cold storage. I do not know what has happened to the cold storage. That was one of the buildings that the Labrador Linerboard has taken over, but I do not know what use they would have for a cold storage,quite honestly. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: The whole thing. The people in - the Connors Brothers in Black Harbour bought most of the equipment that was in the place. Presumably they bought the cold storage too.

We had come right to the deadline with Connor, we had almost, the famous last words - we had just about concluded an agreement with them whereby they would go in and operate the plant in conjunction with their own sardine industry in New Brunswick. They were going to operate a herring canning plant or use the facilities out there. We had undertaken to sell it to them, We had come to an agreement on the price and so on. However after they had done a survey - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

DOODY: of their o~m - they could very well be - a survey of their own of the resource availability in the area and so on, they decided because of the Bank, and because of the current tight money Pituation, the capital is not available for that kind of an investment, they decided not to get involved. 32iJU

April 7, 1975 Tape No. 1094 NM - 1 MR.NEARY: On a point of order, Sir, it is very interesting what the minister is saying, Mr. Chairman, but the minister is going down, giving us an item by item account now of each one of these subheads 1 Usually,Mr. Chairman, under the minister's salary there are remarks of a general nature. The minister gives a report of the industrial development in the Province in the past twelve months - MR. DOODY: But we went through that on Friday. MR.

NEARY: - tells us of what plans they have for the future but never, Sir, unless we agreed to it in advance, and we have not agreed to it, because we will ask questions on each one of these subheads so we are wasting the time of the House, Sir. The minister should give his general remarks. My colleagues respond and then we go on to an item by item accounting of each subhead, That is the way we have been doing it all along. I do not see any reason why we should depart from that procedure. MR. DOODY: All right. You can do that now if you like because I went through the general remarks on Friday afternoon.

I went through the structure of the departnent and the aims and objectives, the general industrial development strategy and so on. You can get that in Hansard, So vou can carry o~ now if you like, item by item. I would be ~uite pleased. I do not want to take up your valuable time. I know how anxious - you might have to go to Clarenville again today 1for all I know. MR. CHAIRMAN {SENIOR): The honourable Member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, before we pass on I have some things I would like to say. I was wondering actually when the minister was going to - MR. ROWE: Peter out. MR.

SIMMONS: Petered out, he petered out a long time ago if he had kept talking. It is obvious, Mr. Chairman - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN (SENIORi: Order, please! 3291

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1094 MR. SIMMONS: I will try Dr. Rowe. I am sorry. MR, MURPHY: Dr. Rowe, honourable ~inister of Health. MR. SIMMONS: I will try honourable Minister of Health. NM - 2 Mr. Chainnan, it is pretty obvious now to those of us on this side of the House what the government is up to. Well let me say it first, let me say it and then laugh after. Some people laugh all the time. They cannot help it, Mr. Chairman. Some people laugh all the time and they cannot help it. I laughed all night after I saw that thing on national television last night, another story, the Minister of Social Services. MR.

NEARY: What did he do? Did he put himself up for adoption? MR. SIMMONS: Maden fool of himself. Made a fool of himself, MR. CHAIRMAN (SENIOR): Order, please! Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: A complete fool of himself. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman - AN HON. MEMBER: The minister would not do that. MR. SIMMONS: No, he did not do it deliberately. I will say that for him. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: I have had lots of examples sitting here. ~r.

Chairman, I was about to say before the Minister of Social Services so rudely interrupted me, as he is very capable of doing, that it is obvious to us what the government is up to. We have now been - what is this, four or five departments out of the seventeen or eighteen and it is the Opposition who nonnally gets accused of the filibuster of talking on and on but I think if we had timed, if we had timed the remarks of the various people who spoke in committee, I think we find that the ministers)in leading off the department, have together used more than half of the time so far in this committee.

They have used more than half, and we are not going to get through all the estimates. But I believe it will be clear to everybody this time what the real reason i • The reason is)of course,that some of the ministers have been instructed,

April 8, 1975 Tape No. 1094 NM 3 such as the Minister of Industrial Development, to filibuster, to talk on and on and to prevent certain other departments from coming before this committee. Now we in the Opposition would like to see all the departments come up. It is pretty obvious, Mr. Chairman, that this is not going to be the case. MR. DOODY: Order, Sir. I have not been filibustering. I have been trying to give the committee information. I thought that that was what the function of these discussions were, to provide information on the operations and exenditures of a department.

I have been attempting to do that. It has not been a fillieuster. I resent the i~plication, Sir. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, that is not a point of order. I submit to Your Honour that the minister was just attempting to waste more valuable time of the connnittee. It is not a genuine point of order. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: It is just a matter of opinion, Sir, between two members. MR. CHAIRMAN (SENIOR):_ The Ch~ir feels maybe the point raised by the Minister of Industrial Development was not a point of order but rather a difference of opinion • .

But the Chair also feels that the coJlllllents expressed by the Member for Hermitage was not relevant to the vote presently being discussed, Industrial Development, 1501 - Minister's salary. MR. NEARY: Good ruling, Sir. It that Your Honour's first ruling. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I certainly respect your ruling. I will try and be relevant. I was discussing what the minister 329J

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1095 Page 1 - mw had been doing and he may not think it was a filibuster, he may not think that we should think it was a filibuster but I can only come to that conclusion, Mr.Chairman. We have seventeen departments or so. If every minister spends two hours introducing his department, there is thirty-four hours. There is literally half the time of the col!ID.ittee spent in introductory remarks, and I submit, Mr. Chairman, that if that continues to go on that we are not going to have time to discuss the estimates of the various departments. I will come now, Mr.

Chairman, to the matter of Industrial Development since everybody is awfully anxious to keep me right in line again. I listened with a lot of care to what the minister has been saying. He droned on somewhat in the last day or so but I tried to hear the substance of what he has been reading, not saying, but reading and he did see fit to drag out this report from the Research and Productivity Council in New Brunswick. Mr. Chairman, I am presently checking the record,or having someone check the record to see if indeed the minister did not lie to the House last spring on this matter.

I would like to know when he had the report. It is dated for January 1974. I asked my question in May of 1974 and he informed me at that time that he had not received any report. You know, I would like to know what happened between the time the report was dated and the time it came to his attention, Mr. Chairman. I will check that, Mr. Chairman, before I say anything further on it. But I am rather suspicious when all of a sudden in April 1975, fifteen full months after the report is dated, suddenly there is the necessity for the minister to bare his soul on this particular subject.

I have been trying desperately for a year to get information on this particular subject. 'lhe minister knows my interest in it, and he had not seen fit before now to bring it to the House. I think that is irresponsible, Mr. Chairman, but I will pursue that further once I find out when it was I asked the question and exactly what the minister's answer was. 3294

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1095 Page 2 - mw But this is the kind of thing, Mr. Chairman,which proves that we will never have industrial development in this country as long as this honourable crowd is in charge. Because,you see, you cannot just sit on this kind of information. The people in the areas concerned,and the people responsible,are i like myself and others concerned about the particular area ought to know the kinds of things the government has found out at the taxpayers' expense about those particular areas in terms of what the economic and the industrial development potential of those areas is.

We cannot know if government is sitting on this kind of a report for a year or fifteen months,as the case may be. I say that that is shocking, and I say we would expect better of the minister than that kind of thing. But as I say, I will puruse that some more once I have some more information in terms of when I first raised the question and what the answers were from the minister. Listening to the minister for the last day or so, Mr.

Chainuan, one can only come to the conclusion, one can only have re-enforced the conclusion that I had come to before 1 that the so-called Industrial Development policy of this administration is a myth, a myth of the first order, They talk a lot about it, they talk so much about it that they got themselves convinced, Mr. Chairman, but it is a myth. As I say, I listened with care to what the minister has had to say in the last day or so and if anything it only confirms,re-enforced once again the feeling I have had about this so-called policy for some time 1that it is a complete myth.

There is no Industrial Development policy. Now, Mr. Chairman, the minister and his colleagues can talk long and hard about the ,numbers of qualified people they have in their respective departments. I happen to know many of them myself personally, and I can agree with the ministers that they are indeed qualified, capable people. But if I might draw a 329t>

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1095 Page 3 - !DW parallel and an analogy, you can have the most capable, the most competent hockey team,or whatever sport you want to refer to, you can have the most competent team, but if you do not have a good coach, if you do not have leadership, you will never get any results out of that team. And the government has around it in the Civil Service a group of very, very qualified, capable Newfoundlanders, people who are 329b

April 7, 1975 . Tape 1096 RH - 1 able to produce because they are a competent people and people who are concerned about this Province. That is what makes the shame all the greater, Mr. Chairman, that that very valuable resource, the best resource we have, the hi.DIian resource, a very competent hmnan resource in the case of the civil service as a whole, that human resource is going to pot, going to waste, Mr. Chairman, because it is not getting the leadership from the minister and from his colleagues in Cabinet, not getting the leadership to put together, Mr.

Chairman, the kind of industrial development policy that they keep talking about, they keep dreaming about, they keep pontificating about, but never do very much about in very concrete terms. Now, we were told a couple of years ago,if I may refer back to Bay D'Espoir for a minute, a couple of years ago we were told about this great study that was going to be done. I have my Bible with me again this morning, P.C.

Times, and back in September or October or Noveaber of 1973, we were told that there was to be a major study to assess the rural and industrial development opportunities in the Bay D'Espoir area to be undertaken. That was - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: The word study is used in the scriptures before me. Yes, Mr. Chairman, they are good at studies. I have never denied that for them. They are very good at studies, talking about studies and producing studies, very good at them, Mr. Chairman, but what I would like to hear from the minister is what has been done.

This report now has been printed and again he obviously lost it for some time, if I may judge from the answers I got from him in the House. But this study has been finalized - MR. DOODY: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: No, Mr. Chairman, the minister will have ample - MR. DOODY: On a point of order. The first time you said that you thought that I lied to the House I ignored it because you said you were not going to refer to it anymore. Now, this time you said that I deliberately mislead the House and I resent that very much 329/

April 7, 1975. Tape 1096 RH - 2 because it is not so. MR. SIMMONS: I did not say deliberate. I did not say deliberate. MR. DOODY: Well, you implied as much and I prefer that you check the record before you get into it. You inferred it and it is most distasteful to me. I prefer that you check the record before you make allegations of 'that nature because they are simply not true. MR. SIMMONS: By all means, Mr. Chairman, and I understand the minister's concern and I did not mean to imply he had deliberately mislead. I am just suspicious, Mr. Chairman. Let me put it in those terms.

I am suspicious that a report dated January, 1974 does not come to light in terms of being accessible to the Rouse of Assembly, does not get assessible to the House for another fifteen months. I say I raised questions on it last Spring and I will wait until I check the Hansard record before I pursue that point. That ia the cOllDDitment I gave to the minister earlier. I am now pursuing another point altogether.

I am now saying that the report dated in January, 1974 which for some reason did not get here until now, that report made a number of recommendations concerning the development of the Bay D'Espoir area, a number of them. I am wondering if, and the minister can respond to this in time, I am wondering what is being done about the recommendations here, the recommendations to set up another series of commissions and studies and so on and so forth, but a number of fairly specific reco11U11endations, one for instance, about the commercial feasibility of marble production.

Has the government done anything to determine the feasibility of that possible undertaking and the tourist potential and the forest industry? And they are all here. The minister is obviously acquainted with them. I would like to know for the benefit of myself and my con­ stituents what has been done in terms of pursuing the recommendations outlined in these reports. You see, Mr. Chairman, that is my point, that this government can never be accused of not being first-class at getting reports. They have got the taxpayers' money to do it with 328U

April 7, 1975. Tape 1096 Rll - 3 and they have no restraints at all when it comes to spending the taxpayers' money or engaging another crowd to do another report. So, I do not scorn them at all for not having enough reports, Mr. Chairman, or for that matter for having too many. I am not scorning them on that either. What I am scorning them on, Mr. Chairman, is t·heir lack of action once they get all those reports. I suppose, Mr. Chairman, no constituency, no area has been so over - studied as Newfoundland as a whole, Newfoundland and Labrador. But, unless we 329~

April 7, 1975 Tape 1097 (Morning) PK - l do something about those studies, unless we take some action, unless we devise from the knowledge in those studies, the findings about reports, unless we devise an Industrial Development strategy, a workable Industrial Development strategy then we are just wasting the taxpayers money and wasting our time. Now I know that the spokesman for government will talk about a grand strategy. But somewhere, }cr.

Chairman, somewhere you have got to put your money where your mouth is, somewhere you have got to stop 1ust talking about strategy there is and to be able to show proof of the existence of that strategy. Be able to show proof that that strategy is working in terms of job creation. Now three or so years after this administration undertook to do great things in terms of Industrial Development, I think - I can honestly say that there is no Industrial Development policy. There is no strategy. Or let me be a little more kind; there is no proof, there is no visible proof of any such strategy. There are no results.

If there is that strategy it is still a set of theories. It is still notes for speeches. It is still subjects for some more study. There are no tangible, I repeat, there are no tangible, visible proofs that such a strategy exists or is in operation. One obvious barometer of the existence of such a strategy would be its affect in terms of the labour figures. And we all know the sad story there, Mr. Chairman. I referred to that at some length when I spoke 1I believe in the Address in Reply.

If we look at the labour figures for Newfoundland as compared to other parts of Canada, and as compared to other times in the last three, four, five or six years in Newfoundland you can only come to the conclusion that any Industrial Developmect polic y which might exist somewhere, if it does exist, you can only come to the conclusion that that policy is an abysmal failure,because it is certainly doing nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing in terms of job creation. The figures get higher and higher. ~r.

Chairman, I would submit to you that if the figure was not twenty-three per cent, but rather ten per cent or eight per cent or seven per cent or six per cent 1 the Minister of Industrial Development, the Premier and the Minister of Manpower would be on their 3300

April 7, 1975 Tape 1097 (Morning) PK - 2 feet taking credit and saying here is what our Industrial Development policy has done in terms of jobs. Well, Mr. Chainnan, it is not quite that way. It is twenty-three per cent. And so we are told that that twenty-three per cent is explained by the fact that Newfoundlanders do not want jobs , and that they would rather sit back and get their unemployment. This is the kind of thing that we are hearing from government spokesmen, Mr. Chairman. They have to come up with those excuses, of course, because they cannot, they cannot afford •.o mouth the real reasons.

And the real reason is that the Industrial Development policy is at worst a myth and at best a bungling reality, a reality that is worst than if it were not there, a reality that is causing all kinds of havoc in the labour market. It is not producing any jobs. A reality,if it is that, that it is holding up false hopes before many, many Newfoundlanders. For two years now the people in the Bay D'Espoir area have been told that the government are going to do great things in terms of development, in terms of aluminum plants, and the hardwood industry, and,you know, everything else.

The hardwood industry reminds me, the minister, the present Minister of Industrial Development said in 1973 that a proposed $10 million to $14 million venture creating 400 jobs would see a birch veneer and a particle board plant established in the Province - that kind of statement, an~ then one by the Premier the same year. It is a very real reason to believe there will be substantial developments in the hardwood industry in the near future. That kind of statement, and more moo:e_specif.ic.-..QBeS--whicn I could dig. 3301

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1098 Page 1 - mw specificoneswhich I could dig out of this document. These statements are the ones that leave people in Bay D'Espoir and people in all parts of the Province with a lot of false hopes in terms of job potential. I say, Mr. Chairman, before I move on>that it is either a myth, which I believe it is, or it is a reality which because of the bungling, because of the incessant talking, speech making on the part of this administration without following through in terms of action, a reality which is causing a lot of havoc. I suppose, Mr.

Chairman, if you had to examine the patient, the government, if you had to diagnose what the real problem was, you could not really say it was the lack of expertise or the lack of back up, in terms of the Civil Service. I believe the government has around it a fine Civil Service. You cannot blame it on them. You cannot blame it on a lack of ideas. We have heard a literal diary of ideas in the last three or four years. You cannot blame it on a failure to study the problem. We have heard more about studies than you can shake a stick at. These are not the problems, Mr. Chairman.

The problems are related to leadership, as I have said before, but to a particular aspect of leadership, related to the lack of follow through. This government has no follow through. They can start any kind of a scheme however wise, however crazy, however expensive, they can give mouth to it, give voice to it, talk about, study it and even make some visible efforts to tackle the problem, but they have no follow through.

And the next thing you know the government that yesterday was talking about a birch plant is today talking about an aluminum plant and tomorrow talking about concrete platforms offshore and that kind of thing, but that is all you ever hear of it, Mr. Chairman, no follow through . It is a fatal weakness, Mr. Chairman, particularly when the people who have no follow through are the people in whose hands are entrusted the resources and the financial resources and the other resources of this Province. 330c.

April 7, 1975 Tape no. 1098 Page 2 - mw Now the minister in speaking Friday afternoon, I believe, mentioned that there was a very real political temptation to make grand announcements. These are his words, Mr. Chairman. I copied them down. It is a very real political temptation to make grand announcements. Hr. Chairman, nobody in this House would know as well as he about that temptation. Because nobody in this House has yielded to that temptation as often as he with the possible exception of the Premier.

Speaking of grand announcements, I remember a year or so ago when that same minister announced that there would be a fish plant in Burgeo if - remember all the 1 if'announcements of a year or so ago, they gave up on that kick after, Mr. Chairman - there would be a fish plant in Burgeo if they got some money from the federal government. Before they had either begun negotiations or certainly before the negotiations with the federal government were concluded, there was going to be a fish plant 1 if. Now let us talk about Come By Chance. What area of the Province, Mr.

Chairman, has been so associated with economic or industrial development in the past few years as the Come By Chance area? Or is that fourth paper mill the Premier keeps talking about out there·; talking about grand announcements? Or where is the second oil refinery 1which he announced in June, 1973, I believe? It was going to start in June, 1973. The best intelligence I had from the area is that it has not begun yet, either in June, 1973 or June, 1974 or April, 1975. Now if the minister is going to stand, Mr.

Chairman, and piously talk about not making grand announcements, I suggest he relate his verbalizations to the record.I suggest that he be very aware that he, himself, has indulged in that temptation. He himself has made some pretty grand announcements. 33Qj

April 7, 1975 Tape No. 1099 NM - 1 Indeed there is nothing wrong with grand announcements of themselves, as long as they got some foundation and some hope of coming to reality. But I suppose,as I have said, the best example is the continuing hopes we have been put through with respect to Come By Chan~e. Now, Mr. Chairman, let us not misunderstand me on this one. I hope sincerely that the Burgeo operation can be a reality, the Burgeo proposal. I hope we can see the additional refinery at Come By Chance or a substantial extension to the present refinery.

I sincerely hope that, But I also hope the government would adhere, would follow the dictum so eloquently mouthed by the Minister of Industrial Development, that we should not yield to the political temptation to make those grand announcements. When the Premier first took office, indeed I think before he became Premier, one of the statements that he got known for around this Province, indeed I say one of the statements that helped to get him some votes at that time, was a statement to the effect that he was not going to be the Premier of the grand announcements.

He was not going to run to a microphone every time it was stuck in front of his face. Mr. Chairman, in fairness to him he has not done that. He has not been on the radio every time, sometimes the fellows at the microphones cannot find his face to shove the microphone at him. He is too far away. But when he is around he has got a track record second to none, Mr. Chairman, for making grand announcements about industrial development, second to none. I promised the Minister of Industrial Development I would come back to this matter if I can find it. MR..

NEARY: Me and my old buddy got to go down for a haircut tomorrow. I can see that. MR.. ROWE: I used the hair dryer this morning. MR. SIMMONS: I have every Hansard here but I cannot seem to spot it here now but - Mr. Chairman, one could dwell for a long time on the effects 3304

April 7, 1975 Tape No. 1099 NM - 2 of the lack of any consistent industrial development policy. The effects across this Province are being felt in every corner. The job opportunities are grim. Only one out of every eight people going into labour markets now expect to get a job. It is that bad. The job opportunities are grim. The economic performance is absolutely dismal. We all know about the cost of living. We know about the unemployment figures. But the real indictment is that no new jobs are being created. No new jobs are being created.

As I have said,seven out of eight new entrants into the labour force will either have no job or will have to displace another job holder elsewhere in the economy if that new entrant is to get a job. Another area related to Industrial Development which I would like to come to for a moment is the matter of vocational training which strictly speaking belongs,of course,in the Department of Manpower but I am sure that there has to be liaison in terms of this matter between the Industrial Development Department and the Manpower Department.

I understand that Newfoundland has the lowest percentage by population, the lowest percentage of persons with vocational training of any Province in Canada. There is certainly a need for a massive Manpower training programme but I realize that if I persue that one too far we might be into trouble in terms of relevance because it does relate more specifically to the Department of Manpower. 330::i

.h.pril 7, 1975 Tape 1100 (morning) IB-1 Mr. Chairman, I glanced again the other day through the 1972 Throne Speech. One of the matters which was given a lot of show, a lot of visibility in that speech, was the matter of full employment, the commitment, The government would see to it that there would be, not just an improvement in the unemployment rates, not just an improvement from sixteen or whatever it was at that time down to ten or eight or sevenl there was going to be full employment. Well, now, you would not expect any group of men to accomplish miracles in short periods.

They have only been in office three or so years. You would not expect them to have it down to zero unemployment at this particular time, The you would expect, Mr. Chairman, that having made that kind of a commitment 1 you can only assume, first of all, that they either made the commitment knowingly, knowing what kind of a job they were committing themselves to doing, It is a sizable job, Mr. Chairman, to achieve full employment in this Province.

You can only give the people who made that co!IDDitment, people in the present administration, credit for either knowing what they were doing and then knowing that they were reasonably capable of undertaking the task,or you can give them the credit or the blame for making a political promise without any intention of fulfilling it. I had hoped that it is the former. I had hoped that they fully intended to be able to come to grips with this particular issue.

I had hoped that they honestly, sincerely meant to tackle this problem of high unemployment and to do something about it, to bring it down approaching the zero mark. Here we are three years later with no evidence from the records at all that this government has done anything about it. We have the labour figures which are the highest ever. That is certainly no indication that they are working towards full employment.

We have the record of the minister's department whose salary we are now discussing)and he can point to reports on Bay D'Espoir and he can point to pronouncements on Burgeo and he can show how they are the victims of Ottawa, that they would have one fish plant or two or three in Burgeo now if it was not for Ottawa, and they can show how 330b

April 7, 1975 Tape 1100 (morning) the only reason they do not have a fish plant in Bay D'Espoir is because Ottawa, I think I heard him say, kind of frowned on thF. Ill-2 proposal. All of which, Mr. Chairman, begged the real question_,of course. This same government had another opportunity a long time before he wrote his letter in December to Ottawa, this same government had another opportunity to look at the possibilities of industrial development in Bay D'Espoir. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He did not write that letter in December. The reply was in December. MR. SIMMONS: The reply was December.

Would the minister indicate when the letter was written? MR. DOODY: About six or seven months before then. MR. SIMMONS: Some time in the Spring of 1q74. MR. DOODY: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: Yes. The minister has indicated - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: Fair enough. For the purpose of what I am about to say, the minister has indicated that the letter was written some time prior to December, perhaps Jim.e or May or somewhere back in the Spring of 1974. A year or so before that even the Premier had a number of approaches from Mr. Spencer Lake about industrial development in Bay D'Espoir.

I have in my possession, not here immediately but in my possession, a rather lengthly letter that Mr. Spencer Lake wrote to the Premier. MR. DOODY: Mr. Spencer Lake!s report on the sawmill is here 1too. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I have noted it. Yes. MR. DOODY: And also the fish plants. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I have seen both these. The letter to the Premier from Mr. Lake is a fairly lengthly one and a lengthly indictment,really~of the Premier's way of doing things in terms of industrial development, a letter that I have never heard the Premier refute,by the way. I never heard him say yet that what Mr.

Lake said to him - I think the letter was probably written in July or August or sometime in 1973, aroim.d there, 33()'/

April 7, 1975. Tape 1101 RH - 1 and I never heard the Premier say that anything that Mr. Lake said in that letter was untrue. Now, Mr. Lake documented in that par­ ticular letter his efforts to get to see the Premier, to talk to him about investing large sums of money in the Bny D'Espoir area for the purposes of development, developing the fishery, developing the tourist industry and other forms of development that were out­ lined in an earlier proposal to the Premier. Mr.

Lake documented at some length, I think two, three, four pages, as I remember it, his efforts, his frustrated efforts to try and even see the Premier to talk about these particular proposals. Now, there may be all kinds of reasons, Mr. Chairman, why the proposals put by Mr. Lake may be not viable or may be quite viable. That is not the issue I am pursuing right now.

What I am saying is that any developer who has got money to invest and has an interest in investing it and has an idea which in his own mind is viable, any developer satisfying those requirements ought to at least be given the ear of the Premier, at least be given his day in court, his opportunity to outline to those who say they are so concerned about developing the Province industrially. Such a developer ought to, at least, have the opportunity of discussing with government his particular proposals. Now, I am not too impressed, Mr.

Chairman, with a big, fat, thick report, fifteen months late,about - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: Well, I am not impressed with it, Mr. Chairman. I am not impressed with it, but I intend to keep it and thank the minister for it because I want to look at it in some more detail. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: You cannot win them all. You cannot win them all, Mr. Chairman, I say to the minister, but there is no reason why a nice fellow like him should be such a monumental loser when it comes to industrial development.

I am not too impressed by the big, fat, thick report, but I will read it in some more detail before I go passing 3308

April 7, 1975. Tape 1101 RH - 2 final judgments on it,But whatever is in it, whatever the goodies are in it, my real point is I am not particularly :Impressed with a report that only sees the light of day about fifteen months after it obviously should have. I am hoping when the minister replies, if he sees fit to, that he will indicate what in that report has been followed through because there are a nUI11ber of recommendations there that again I cannot pass judgment on their viability, but certainly we have got to go the next step and find out if they are viable.

The ways and means or at least the means, the ways I should say, the ways are laid down, the means would have to come from the Treasury. Government would have to decide whether they would pursue the matter further but that is for govern­ ment, but I would like to know how far that has gone. Mr. Chairman, the minister made reference, I guess the - No, the appropriate place to do that is under the appropriate subhead so I will not pursue that at this particular time. Justto reiterate before sitting down, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to reiterate. Mr.

Chairman, I kind of got off this a little earlier when I referred to the 1972 Throne Speech, I mentioned that in that Speech there had been some full employment promised, but there are a number of other items which I think the minister has to answer for as minister of his department)of which notice were given either in 1972 or in the Throne Speech or about that time which, if followed through, would have meant substantial industrial development, the whole ~amut of them Mr. Chairman, some that fall into the categories of other deparbnents.

I am well aware of rather strict limitations in terms of relevancy here. 330~

April 7, 1975 Tape 1102 (Morning) PK - 1 We heard a lot about additional processing facilities. On that one I would just like to come to the matter of Hermitage. The minister, I believe, the other day, it might have been the Premier, I am not sure - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: one of them - we are aware that there is no doubt in anybody's mind in this country about the closeness of the Premier and the Minister of Industrial Development or no doubt in anybody's mind about some of the unfortunate results of that closeness, Mr.

Chairman, in terms of industrial development, in terms of the way our resources are being expended. Mr. Chairman, I refer to an item in the 1972 Throne Speech about the commitment to provide additional processing facilities. Now - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: I am sorry? I was referring in particular to Hermitage, whether it was the Premier or the Minister of Industrial Development made some commitments a few days ago about the Hermitage proposal, and how it had gotten bogged down because the DREE offer did not come through, did the minister - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. NR. SIMMONS: Yes.

Did the minister indicate that the DREE offer did not come through? ls that my understanding? ~!R. DOODY: When I get up I will tell you. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, okay, I gather that the minister had indicated a few days ago that the DREE offer did not come through. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: I see. Well I am glad he did not not. The minister indicates he did not say that,and I am glad he did not, Mr. Chairman, because that would be false. It would be quite false. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SIMMONS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SIMMONS: AN HON. MFJIIBER: 33.LO Inaudible. Quite false. Inaudible. But someone - Inaudible.

April 7, 1975 Tape 1102 (Morning) MR. SIMMONS: I shall - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: I see. I see. So, Mr. Chairman, - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SIMMONS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SIMMONS: AN HON. MEMBER: See you later in Opposition. Not all, Mr. Chairman . That will le repeated eventually. No, Mr. Chairman. (First

part inaudible) deathless prose. PK - 2 MR. SIMMONS: No, Mr. Chairman, no more deathless than what we have had to listen to from the minister in the last couple of days. What I said, Mr. Chairman, I am always ready - MR. DOODY: (Inaudible) MR. SIMMONS: I am always very ready - AN HON. MEMBER: He has new conquests. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, does the sometimes Chairman of Debates, the Member for St. George's have the right to interrupt while I am making a few points? MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. SIMMONS: goodness sake. MR. DUNPHY: MR. SIMMONS: MR. DUNPHY: MR. CHAIRMAN: The question is hypothetical.

Stand up and let me see how low you are boy, for Pardon? Stand up and let me see how low you are. Low? (remainder inaudible) Order, please! Order, please! One honourable member does not have the right to interrupt another but neither does an honourable member have the right to goad another into unparliamentary remarks either. So the honourable member has the floor and has the duty to be relevant and I ask him to be so. MR. SIMMONS: I - MR. DUNPHY: MR. SIMMONS: on both them. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are you on your heels now? No, because one of them is over there so I cannot be 3311

April 7, 1975 Tape 1102 (Morning) Hr. Chairman, I ask that the member be asked to retract that connnent he just made there a moment ago. If he can get away with that kind of thing, I shall use some language too. I will not repeat it in the name of decency but he did - MR. EVANS: (Inaudible) MR. SIMMONS: - he did get away with - is the member going to offer to retract it? MR. DUNPHY: Mr. Chairman, what I was trying to say is the honourable gentleman is the east end of a horse going west. MR. SI 11-lONS: Nr. Chairman, I have the floor and either the sometimes Chairman can retract or he can shut up.

AN HON. l!Et'IBER: What did he say? MR. SillMONS: He said something I would not repeat and he is too cowardly to repeat too. Mr. Chairman - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. SI MMONS: It was. It was. He can be very clear on those subjects, he knows a lot about them. PK - 3 Mr. Chairman, we got off on this rather unsavoury note when I was talking a minute ago about some indications that were given by those in government a few days ago about the Robert's proposal in Hermitage.

Now I got the distinct impression, and again I might be quite wrong, I got the impression that a spokesman for government, either the Premier or the Minister of Industrial Development had indicated that the DREE offer had been refused, and I say I hope that is wrong. I got that impression and I would like for the minister to correct it. MR. DOODY: If I will ever get a chance. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, you may. The minister may, Mr. Chairman. I still have an hour and twenty minutes if I want to talk as long as he did in his introductory remarks. I realize not at one time, Mr. Chairman. MR .

MOORES: You are not going to waste time - MR. SIMMONS: No, I am not going to waste time. The Premier may be wasting time by interrupting me, but I will compensate for that, 3312

April 7, 1975, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Tape 1102 (Morning) Order, please! According to the calculations at the Table the honourable member has a couple of minutes left in his forty-five minutes which is allocated as his time. MR. SIMMONS: I am aware of that, Mr. Chairman, thank you. PK - 4 The minister,when he gets up,I hope will set us straight on what the government's position is right now in terms of the Robert's proposal. I have had a lot of difficulty in dealing .s with, particularly the Minister of Fisheries, in trying to 331::l

April 7, 1975 Tape No. 1103 NM - 1 find out what the government's position is. So I shall welcome the opportunity of hearing from the minister,and in particular just let me say for the record that the DREE offer, there has been no difficulty in terms of the DREE offer. The DREE offer has been made. It has been made for some months. The problem is not there. Now I can give my views on where the problem is but the point I want to make for the record is that it is not with the DREE offer. The DREE people have offered $42,000 for that proposal and the problem is not there. I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, without covering the subject fully, that a fair amount of the problem lies with the attitude of the Provincial Department of Fisheries and perhaps with the attitude of the Fisheries Department. Well the latter is speculation but I feel reasonably sure in saying that a ~ood part of the problem lies with the attitude, the attitude of the Provincial Department of Fisheries. MR. DOODY: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, the minister seems to be so anxious to reply and everybody else seems so anxious for me to sit down, perhaps Mr. Chairman - MR. DOODY: No. No. No. (Inaudible). SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: Oh I see. I see. That is an "Ank Murphy" joke 1by the way. I am sorry 1 that is a Minister of Social Services joke. The minister can do better than that. He can be a lot more original than that. The speech writer for the Premier can be a lot more witty than that when he wants to be, Mr. Chairman. The note on which I would like to end is the note on which I began 1that the Industrial Development policy of this government is a myth, a myth in every sense of the term. It is a lot of studies, a lot of talk, a lot of speech making, no action whatsoever.

The government cannot show, and the minister in his statement the last two days has not shown where any Industrial Development strategy has been persued with any degree of success over the past three years. 3314

Apr il 7, 1975 Tape No. 1103 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman , I have a few remarks, Sir , a small contribution to make to the deba t e before we go on and f'ass the mi.nis ter 's salary but it is almost one o'clock now, Mr. Chairman, unless you want me to carry on for a minute or two, perhaps we could call it one o'clock. SOMr. HON . MEMBERS : Inaudible . MR. NEARY: I mean l can carry on if you want me t o. MR. CHAI.RMA.'1: Is it agreed that we call it one o'clock? All those in favour "aye", all those against "nay", carried . lt now being one o'clock, l now leave the Chair until three o'clock this afternoon. 331.~

April 7, 1975. Tape 1104 RH - 1 The Committee resumed at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Chairman in the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, when the Committee rose at one o'clock, Sir, we were discussing the estimates of the Department of Industrial Development, the minister's salaryiand my colleague, the Member for Hermitage, Sir, had just made a very valuable contribution to the debate and I hope, Sir, over the next few minutes that I will in some way, be able to make what I hope will be a small contribution to this debate because after all, Sir, it is under the minister's heading that we get the opportunity to make a few general remarks concerning the departmental estimates that are under consideration by the committee at this particular time.

Now, Sir, we could save our remarks probably for the Throne Speech debate or we could save our remarks for the budget debate. MR. DOODY: That is where they properly should be. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, they should not properly, that is not where they properly should be. They properly should be here because the minister, Sir, in his introductory remarks gave an account of the activities of his department over the past twelve months . I was not here, but I heard the news reports and I read the reports of the minister's statement in the newspapers. MR. DOODY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Hansard is not published yet.

I do not have a copy of Hansard so I - MR. DOODY: You are going to go on the attack anyway. MR. NEARY: I am going to go on the attack anyway, Sir, because I understand that the minister's performance on Friday was one of the most pathetic that was ever made in this honourable House,and God only knows, Sir, in the last three years that we have witnessed some pretty sad and forlorn and pathetic performances by ministers in the present administration. 3318

April 7, 1975. Tape 1104 RH - 2 Now, Mr. Chainnan, the reason I say that we should take the opportunity on the minister's salary to make a few remarks is because this particular topic, Sir, that we now have under discussion, indus­ trial dev*lopment or economic development , if you want to call it that, is the most important subject, Sir, that we could discuss in this honourable House. MR. DOODY: Irrespective of redistribution. MR. NEARY: Irrespective of anything else, Sir, because, Mr.

Chairman, if we do not have a forward looking programme of industrial develop­ ment, Sir, if we do not increase our Gross Provincial Product at the rate of seven or eight or ten per cent a year, then there is no way, Mr. Chairman, that we can finance all the other government depart­ ments. There is no way, Sir, that we can continue to get all the good things of life because the wealth, Sir, the resources will just not be there unless we can keep our Gross Provincial Product moving, Sir, at least to a rate of about eight or ten per cent a year. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the warning signals are up all over the place and I know that the minister when he replies to my few remarks maybe later on this afternoon, he will tell us that the warning signals are up all over North America, all over the world. Well, Sir, I say to that, so what, so what. What are we doing in Newfoundland? What policy are we following in Newfoundland to try to keep our Gross Provincial Product at a reasonable rate? I am afraid, Mr.

Chairman, when you ask yourself that question that you have to come to the conclusion, Sir, that we are doing absolutely nothing in this Province to increase our productivity, to get the dollar value of all the goods and services produced in this Province up by a reasonable rate per year and we are told, Mr. Chairman, that in 1974 in real terms, allowing for inflation, Sir, that the gross value of the total output of goods and services increased in 1974 at the slowest rate that we have had in this Province in a good many years. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: How many? '"'3J' ., .:; . ~ I

April 7, 1975. Tape 1104 MR. NEARY: Three per cent - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: How many? MR. NEARY: In, I would say, Sir, MR. DOODY: How many is a good many? RH - 3 MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, if you go back to the time that Newfoundland went into Confederation and you look maybe the increase in the Gross Provincial Product during the first few years following Confederation may have been slow on the upswing, but, Sir, in the last ten years of the Smallwood administration, in the last ten years of the former, much maligned, Liberal administration who were accused of only having an industrial development policy in the Premier's vest pocket, that he was always flying by the seat of his pants, - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: These are your words. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, no, Mr.

Chairman, these are not my words. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Sounds like you. MR. NEARY: No, Sir. Ask the Minister of Fisheries and the other people who came across the House, that disagreed with the industrial development policy of the former administration. We were told, Sir, that Mr. Smallwood had a giveaway programme. They sneered and jeered at hisaevelop or perish policy, poked fun at it every opportunity they had and tried to downgrade the Smallwood industrial or economic development policy.

Sir, since the P.C.s have formed the administration, for the first time, Sir, in at least ten years, 1974, our Gross Provincial Product increased at the slowest rate that we had, say, over a ten or a fifteen year period. We are told, Mr. Chairman, we are told by the experts and the economists that our Gross Provincial Product in the current year, in 1975, may be even less than three per cent. If this is so, Mr. Chairman, is this is so, where will the money come from? Where will the wealth come from to give our people all the goods things of life that they now expect?

Where will the money come from for water and sewerage? Where will the money come 3318

April 7, 1975. Tape 1104 RH - 4 to finance our education? Where will the money COllle from to provide the Minister of Social Services will all the resources that he needs to look after people who are unemployed through no fault of their own and who are sick and wh.o CBIUlOt work1 and the widows and the orphans? Where will it come from? The minister did not tell us that in his introductory remarks.

The minister, I do not think, unless I am mistaken, Sir, and I was not here, the minister made no reference to our Gross Provincial Product whatsoever which is the only reason for having that minister's department in existence. MR. DOODY: That is a terrible thing to say. MR.NEARY: It is not a terrible thing to say, Sir. It is the right thing to say. Mr. Chairman, in the matter of industrial development as in 111any other matters that are being handled by .this administration, Sir, I am afraid, Mr.

Chairman, and I · do not know if this is parliamentary or not, I think it is, that the Premier and the administration have violated the public trust that was put in to them,Sir, in the provincial general election by the people of this Province three years ago. This administration, Mr. Chairman, was elected on a platfotm of fiscal management, planning and development, the ending of patronage, the overhaulin& 3319

April 7, 1975 Tape 1105 (afternoon) of our fishing industry andrural development. I would submit to Your Honour that on all counts, Sir, the administration have failed to live up to the hopes and expectations that they built up in the minds and hearts of our people and that they have betrayed the people of Newfoundland and Labrador and they have failed, Sir, to live up to their commitments and their promises that were made to our people.

While all this is happening, Sir, while they have failed miserably, especially in the field of industrial development, Sir, IB-1 our provincial debt has climbed higher than it ever was in our history. It is fifty per cent higher now than it was after twenty-three years with the Smallwood Administration, and it is climbing steadily, Sir. There is no way, Mr.

Chairman, that I can see that we can cope with a couple of billion dollar debt in this Province unless, Sir, we can get the Province back on the rails, unless we can get the Province moving again, Sir, on. an aggressive, economic or industrial development programme. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I knoP the minister can get up and he can talk about how the Progressive Conservatives have planned and how they have studied and how they have planned to do studies and how they have studied plans to do more studies. While they are studiously planning, Sir, there are no results. We see absolutely no results.

They are planning and planning and planning and there is no action. For instance, Mr. Chairman, as my colleague, the Member for Hermitage, pointed out this morning three years after the administration formed the government instead of a second oil refinery at Come-By-Chance w~ only have plans, Mr. Chairman, for the expansion of the first oil refinery. Now, even that, Sir, is in doubt.

I put a question to the Minister of Mines and Energy and to the honourable the Premier last week and the Minister of Mines and Energy, I think 1made a public statement outside of the House that it was only - either the Minister of Mines and Energy or the Minister of Industrial Development - that there was a minor technicality in laying - AN HONOURAf\LE MF.}!JlEF: A major technicality. MR. NEARY: No 1 Sir. I have the clipping. I do not have it here with 33iU

April 7, 1975 Tape 1105 (afternoon) me. I think I left it inside. If the minister was quoted right in the Evening Telegram, they said a minor technicality. Well, Sir, from the answer that I got from both the IB-2 honourable the Premier and the honourable Minister of Industrial Development, I would say it is a major technicality because there are very grave doubts now according to the answers that we were given in this honourable Rouse, that even the expansion to the first oil refinery will take place.

Instead of the Lower Churchill Development, power development, taking place two or three years ago, all we see happenin g now is a little preliminary work going ahead - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, Sir. Mr. Chairman, the minister can try to confuse me all he like, Sir, and try to get me off my trend of thought all he wants, and the minister will have ample opportuaity before the day is over to respond to some of my criticism. MR. DOODY: I may not. You may have destroyed me. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chainnan, the development of the Lower Churchill could have and should have taken place the first year that the Progressive Conservative Administration had been in office. It should have and it could have but for their childishness and their stubborness and their foolishness because, Sir, the ground work had all been laid.

In the place of development now, Sir, all we hear about is some drilling that may go on down there, some prelim1nary work and a meeting that is going to take place in Ottawa on Thursday coming when the Premier somehow or other is trying to force on the agenda of the upcoming First Minister's Meeting the development of the Lower Churchill. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Are you against that? MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I am not against it but my understanding of the meeting is that that is not the purpose of having such a meeting.

This particular meeting in Ottawa has more to do with oil and oil prices than it does with the - AN HONOUUBLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Well, I hope that the honourable the Premier can get to discuss this matter of development of the Lower Churchill, but it seems 3321

April 7, 1975 Tape 1105 (afternoon) IB-3 to me that this will just merely be a side issue to the overall conferences taking place in Ottawa on Thursday. We were led to believe, Sir, on a number of occasions, that a great gigantic aluminum industry was going to be established in this Province. No sign of it. The minister did not tell us whether or not this hinges on the development of the Lower Churchill. Maybe it does. I do not know. What about the cement plant that the minister talked about several months ago? A second cement plant. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Tedious repetition. MR.

NEARY: No, Sir, it is not tedious repetition. Now, what about the caustic soda plant? Where is the industry to construct concrete platforms for offshore oil and gas development? I mean, this is the honourable crowd, Sir, that told us there would be no announcements made in advance, that they were not the kind of people, like Mr. Smallwood, who would go around saying, oh, there is a possibility of getting this kind of an industry or that kind of an industry. They were not going to do that.

I am sure that on at least fifteen or twenty occasions in the last year I have heard both the Minister of Industrial Development and the honourable the Premier talk about the construction of concrete platforms for offshore oil and gas development. Mr. Chairman, we all know what happened to the steel mill down there at Donovans when the Tory Administration, Sir, took over in this Province. They had the makings of a half decent steel industry in Newfoundland.

They can ~et up all they like and tell us about the millions of dollars that were poured into that industry, $13 million poured into it, and they can maybe brainwash a few people in the Province into thinking that this was a blunder - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Not you. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, not me. Maybe they can brainwash some of the editorial writers and some of the people who take pen in hand occasionally that this was a waste of the taxpayers money, that it should have never been there, was not on tidewater, could not cmnpete with big STELCO 3322

April 7, 1975 TaPe 1105 (afternoon) up in Hamilton • They can try to brainwash us all they like, but, Mr. Chairman, the facts are there that this honourable crowd closed down that steel mill right at the moment when it could have been a boom for this Province . AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nonsense! MR, NEARY: Ah! AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Utter nonsense! IB-4 MR. NEARY: That is utter nonsense? Well, l would like to see the minister won nis way out of it. They scrapped it and ·gave it away right at a time, Sir, when the price of steel was never hi.gher in the history of North Amer ica.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Now, the price of scrap tripled . MR. NEARY: Now, while the price of scrap tripled, now they are going to go out and pay Mr. Mullally and his crowd to c