Manitoba Hansard — 30 May 2002 (Sitting 40B, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-40b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

-g Third Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative A.ssembly of Manitoba I)EBATES and PR()CEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 40B- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 30, 2002 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La V erendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assi niboia Fort Rouge Wellington Ross mere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

2043 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 30 ,2002 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINI STERIAL STATEMENTS Forest Fire Update Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Trans portation and Government Services) : 1 have a statement, Mr. Speaker. As Minister responsible for Emergency Measures, I am pleased to provide the House with an update on the forest fire near Red Deer Lake that was threatening the communities of Powell and Barrows. I am very pleased to report that the need to evacuate residents from these communities has passed, and as of noon today people began returning to their homes.

The fire lines were held over the course of the night, and the ground attack crews and helicopters are continuing their work to suppress the fire. The fire is now contained, and I am sure all members of the House join me in applauding the excellent work of those who worked so hard to protect these communities. As a precautionary measure, residents in Powell and Barrows will remain on one hour notice evacuation for the next 24 hours. I would also like to report to the House that the RCMP are working to determine the cause of the fire.

I am sure all Manitobans share a relief that the fire was contained without injury or property damage. Forest fires are a fact of life in this province. We should all keep in mind the tremendous destructive powers of those fires and do our part to stop forest fires before they start. All Manitobans can look at the fire at Red Deer Lake as a reminder of the dedicated profes sionals who stand ready to fight the forest fires and assist those affected by those fires. I am sure I speak for all members of this House in extending our thanks to those people who did this difficult and important work. Mr.

Harry Enos (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his statement to the House, and again allow me to take this opportunity, along with him, to congratulate our forest-fire fighters that have done such an exemplary job in this instance. I want to indicate to him and to the House that this

section of the minister's Estimates passed speedily, as we approved the annual $14-million-plus for the protection of our property and forests, and in this case a community. It is regretted, and I hope that will be detem1ined shortly, if indeed this fire was arson, deliberately started, that we have these kinds of occurrences. I hope the RCMP can come to a satisfactory conclusion in their investigation of this matter. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Spea ker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr.

Speaker: No, leave has been denied. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill27-The Safer Workplaces Act (Workplace Safety and Health Act Amen ded) Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister char ged with the administration of the Workers Compensation Act) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Ashton), that leave be given to introduce Bill 27, The Safer Workplaces Act (Workplace Safety and Health Act Amended), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, The Safer Workplaces Act deals with a number of areas

2044 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 including: provisions respecting Workplace Safety and Health committee duties; providing for safety and health duties of contractors, owners, and suppliers, and new duties for employers, including provisions on safety and health programs, training and supervision of workers; as well as streamlining appeals and addressing compliance issues. Motion agreed to. * (13:35) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from the Souris School 38 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mr. Glen Wallmann and Ms. Theresa O'Brien. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer). Also in the public gallery we have Amanda Willms and Angela Schellenberg, who is the daughter of the honourable Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg). They are also the guests of the honourable Member for Rossmere. Also in the public gallery we have Mr.

Larry Soldier, who is the Chief of the Swan Lake Band. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Man itoba Medical Association Contract Negotiations Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, once again we have seen this Government perform another flip-flop. Last week we called for the Province to enter into binding arbitration with the Manitoba doctors, but the Health Minister, he refused. Yesterday, they changed their minds and did enter into binding arbitration, but they refused to put it in writing. Mr.

Speaker, in less than 48 hours Manitoba patients will be put at risk if this Government allows doctors to walk off the job. I will ask the Health Minister if he will do the right thing. Will he do the right thing and provide a written, signed document providing and proving that the Province wiii enter and agree to binding arbitration? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have consistently adopted the position in this House that it is not appropriate to negotiate in this Legislature. As an example, yesterday the Member for Charleswood (Mrs.

Driedger) raised issues in this Legislature about negotiations that were not, shall I say, totally with all the facts in the situation. Had I started to engage in debate with the member on that issue, it could have jeopardized ongoing negotiations. Mr. Sp eaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on a point of order? Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Yes, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417. Yesterday, the Minister of Health leaked a letter to the media before he sent it to the MMA.

If that is not negotiating in the public eye, I do not know what is, and I would ask him to explain that. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Speaker, not only does the member not have a point of order, but the point of order he raised is factually inaccurate. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr.

Chomiak: As I indicated last week when members raised the issue of binding arbitration, as I indicated this week regarding binding arbitration, I do not think it is useful insofar as we are in negotiations now with the MMA concerning a whole series of issues, concerning a contract valued at half a billion dollars, concerning a contract that has hundreds and

May 30, 2002 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2045 hundreds of clauses, implications and ramifications. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, it is getting to become a bit of a habit for the Doer government to always wait till the eleventh hour before anything happens. That tactic may get the Government's union juices going but it does little to help those patients who are wondering if there are going to be services available on Saturday. I will ask the Health Minister again: Will he do the right thing, stand, put patient safety first and sign a document to say they will enter into binding arbitration with the MMA? Mr.

Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the last time there was a negotiated agreement between the Government of Manitoba and the Manitoba Medical Association was in 1998. That contract had expired on March 31 of that year and, as I recall, the previous government entered into an arbitration agreement with that same organ ization on June 3 of that year. Mr. Murray: What the Health Minister is basically saying is: Take me at my word. Take me at my word that we are going to proceed with this binding arbitration.

The fact of life is this is the same minister that said: I will end hallway medicine in six months, I will slash waiting lists for diagnostic testing and we will hire more full-time nurses. Failed on all of those. They cannot trust this minister for his word. I simply ask him, on behalf of Manitoba patients: Will he do the right thing, put patient safety first and enter into a written, binding arbitration to ensure patients know that on Saturday this Government will not allow doctors to walk out? * (13:40) Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, dealing with all the issues raised by the member opposite, it has been well documented across the country that the hallway medicine situation is down 80 percent and has been viewed by CIHI as the best in Canada. In fact it has been copied by the Conservative government of Ontario. Secondly, it is also well known that we have created more full-time jobs in our tenure in the last several years than have occurred during the equivalent period of time during the last government.

In fact, we have a clause in the new collective agreement that we were able to reach with the nurses to work with the nurses, not firing nurses, not laying off nurses, but working with the nurses to deal with issues of full-time work. In addition, as I have indicated, we are in negotiations. The members opposite were in the situation where I do not think it is appropriate that we should be discussing the specific aspects of negotiation, where we are at a crucial stage. Manit oba Medical Association Contract Negotiations Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): This Minister of Health has been in charge of the health care system for almost three years now. Under his watch in the last year, three times patients have been put in jeopardy as a result of the emergency room physicians, as a result of the nurses, where surgeries were cancelled and beds were closed. Now it is with physicians. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speak er: Order. The honourable Member for River East has the floor. Mrs.

Mitchelson: My question for the Minister of Health is: When is he going to stop blaming everyone else, show some leadership, take some responsibility and ensure that patient safety is not put at risk this weekend because of his inaction? Mr. Cho miak: Mr. Speaker, we are in negotiations with the MMA. As I recall, during the 1990s there were at least two or three episodes when emergency doctors walked off the job, at least two or three occasions. So I think that is what the member is confusing in terms of her reference in her

preamble. Secondly, I think it is well documented and I think it is well known by Manitobans what measures we have put in place. We have increased enrolment at the Faculty of Medicine to have more doctors, after members opposite cut the enrolment. We increased enrolment in

2046 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 nursing after members opposite cut the nursing programs. We have not closed hospitals like members opposite who closed the largest hospital in Manitoba history. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Mar cel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. What is this mm1ster going to do on the weekend when the doctors walk out? Mr.

Speaker: The Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite does not have a point of order. The rather ambling

preamble of the Member for River East made reference to facts that I was correcting for her information and for the people of Manitoba. They asked about the negotiations, and I indicated they are ongoing negotiations. I might add further that- Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable House Leader of the Official Opposition, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable ministers that Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be brief and should not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health to conclude his answer, please. * (13:45) Mr. Chom iak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In conclusion, what the member states in her

preamble and question is wrong. Mrs. Mitchelson: Will the Minister of Health, who has ambled and rambled on and on and taken no responsibility, shown no leadership in this issue, answer one very simple question? Why has he changed his position, when in opposition his leader said in questioning the government of the day, and I quote: Will the Premier have the Minister of Health agree to put all items in dispute before an independent binding arbitration process so that patients can be served by this process? Why has he changed his position now and not shown any leadership? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, that is precisely the position we took and agreed with at the bargaining table. Mrs. Mitchels on: That certainly was not the spin the minister was putting on this outside the Legislature yesterday, where he had no answers. Will the Minister of Health today, Mr. Speaker, do what he indicated in opposition that the Government should do, and will he simply try to solve the situation for the benefit of all Manitobans and agree that the Government will go to binding arbitration in order to resolve this issue? Will he sign the documents and get on with the process? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, we have gone further than the comments we made in opposition. At the time those comments were made in opposition, there was a strike ongoing. We have offered binding arbitration prior to job action in recognition of the demand of the MMA. Manitoba Medical Association Contract Negotiations Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): We have heard the minister claim that he is in negotiations, he is not in negotiations, that he was deferring negotiations for a week. We now understand that he is negotiating publicly and privately with the MMA and the individual doctors separately.

My only question for him is: Will the Minister of Health guarantee that Manitobans will not be put at risk while he dilly-dallies with the negotiations with the Manitoba Medical Association? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): will confirm that we are in negotiations.

May 30, 2002 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2047 Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, that is absolutely intolerable for the people of Manitoba. He makes light of the fact that services are being taken away from rural Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon. Gord Mac kintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A couple of days ago we had a very insightful statement made in the House on a point of order, I think a statement that is worth repeating. It says Beauchesne 417, I do not know if that is the right citation:

Preambles to questions should be brief and supplementary questions should require no

preamble. That was from the Official Opposition House Leader. It reads like Shakespeare. I urge that in considering the

preamble to the supplementary questions of the Member for Turtle Mountain. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on the same point of order. Mr. Tweed: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. We on this side of the House find it awful that the government of the day would find it a position to be cute and fancy when people in rural Manitoba and their life and limb are being put at risk while this guy sits around and makes jokes about the negotiations that are going on. It is shameful. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members that 409(2): A

preamble is not required on the supplementary question. I would ask the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain to please put his question. *** Mr. Tweed: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then I will ask the Minister of Health: Will he quit playing chicken with the MMA and resolve to settle this issue and not put Manitobans at risk while he fiddles? * (13:50 ) Mr. Cho miak: Mr. Speaker, we have been at the bargaining table with the MMA for weeks.

Binding arbitration was on the table with respect to the MMA in the negotiations at a time even sooner than when the members sat around the Cabinet table of a previous administration. I do not understand where members opposite are coming from. What I do know is we are doing everything we can to ensure the patients are of the first priority for all Manitobans. I know the MMA is doing the same thing. Mr. Tweed: My question for the Minister of Health: Is the Minister of Health considering legislation if this cannot be settled through negotiation? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, we are at the bargaining table with the MMA negotiating a collective agreement. We continue to negotiate a collective agreement. We continue to meet with the MMA. As I speak there are ongoing meetings that are recommencing very shortly. We are continuing to bargain. What I fail to understand- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I think I now better understand some of the clime and some of the issues that occurred during the 1990s when members opposite were government. Adult Learning Centres Funding Overpayment -Legal Action Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): In April of this year the Minister of Education stated that ratepayers in Morris-Macdonald School Division should sue the division's former partners in adult education for restitution. Was it the minister's direction that individual ratepayers must go to court because he himself would take no action against these former partners?

2048 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, this Government, since it came into office in September 1999, has been engaged in nothing but taking action in rectifying the problems left by members opposite when Manitobans exercised their choice to remove them from office. The reality of the adult learning centre situation in Morris-Macdonald was well outlined in the provincial auditor's report, an extensive and exhaustive document that I refer members opposite to for their edification.

The provincial auditor identified a number of responses in recommendation form that should be undertaken to bring some order to the system of adult learning centres established by members opposite, a system with no accountability either fiscally or educationally. Mr. Gilleshammer: I would ask the minister to focus on the question. Did he indicate to individual ratepayers and people who were considering running as trustee candidates in Morris-Macdonald that they should run on that option, that they should sue for this restitution? * (13 :55) Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated in the House yesterday, there is an RCMP investigation into this matter, an investigation that was referred to them as a basis following on the provincial auditor's report, an Auditor's report that identified an adult learning system in the province of Manitoba that was established with no apparent forethought by members opposite. That ill-conceived scheme, conceived by members opposite, cost the people of the prov ince of Manitoba tens of millions of dollars, up to four and a half million, which was identified as going to happen in Morris-Macdonald. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Mar cel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. I do believe it was a very simple question for the minister. I do believe if he listens carefully the next time, he might catch on. Mr.

Spea ker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order, 417: Answers to questions should deal with the matter that is raised. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth, you concluded your comments? Mr. Gilleshammer: I can well imagine why the minister is embarrassed by these comments. Did he in fact say to the public that members of the public, ratepayers at Morris-Macdonald School Division should sue these former partners for the overpayments that were made to institutions like HOPE and Anokiiwin? Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, I do appreciate the Member for Minnedosa's concern with this. I think we should all be concerned with the Morris-Macdonald issue in this province. Taxpayers from the Turtle Mountain constituency, taxpayers from the Minnedosa constituency, taxpayers from every constituency in this province had tax dollars going to Morris Macdonald. The provincial auditor identified that millions of those dollars were mismanaged and instructed the Government to take action on that matter. That is indeed what we are doing. Adult Learning Cen tres Funding Overpayment -Legal Action Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Speaker, I will try to place the question more clearly for the member and more simply. Did the minister say to the people in Morris-Macdonald that they should sue third parties to reclaim the monies that were owed to Morris-Macdonald School Division? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Again, Mr. Speaker, I am

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2049 not going to have the member for Roblin put words in my mouth. What I am going to say is that taxpayers in the constituency of the member from Roblin- Some Honourable Members: Russell. Mr. Caldwell: Russell, sorry, Mr. Speaker, the member from Russell. But taxpayers from Roblin, taxpayers from all over the province had dollars go into Morris-Macdonald. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, the very simple question for the minister: Did he make those statements? Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should deal with the matter raised. I ask the honourable Minister of Education to deal with the question, please. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth, you concluded your comments? Next question. Mr.

Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister again: Did he say to the people of Morris Macdonald that they should sue third parties like the Orlikows and the Anokiiwin Centre to recoup money in terms of the overstated enrolments? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I fully expect that as the RCMP investigation into this matter continues and concludes, something that we have faith in in terms of the RCMP's integrity, that we will in due course resolve this issue in terms of criminal action. Mr. Speaker, in terms of the tens of millions of dollars that went out of this Legislature- Point of Order Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. If this minister is unable to answer the question, maybe he should let somebody else take that position. * (14:00) Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Education, Training and Y outh, on the same point of order. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, to the last two questions I have said that I will not have members opposite be putting words in my mouth. Mr.

Speaker: On the matter raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should deal with the matter raised. Have you concluded your comments? *** Mr. Derkach : Mr. Speaker, in trying to get an answer from this minister I will ask it one more time. It has been reported that the minister said that citizens should launch civil suits against third parties to collect the money that was owed as a result of overstated enrolments.

I want to ask the minister one more time: Did he in fact make that statement with respect to residents of Morris-Macdonald School Division launching civil suits against third parties to collect the money? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, my answer is going to be consistent. I am not having members opposite putting words in my mouth.

2050 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 Hecla Area Land Expropriation Investigation Results Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, today we learned that Britain has lost its Punch and here in Manitoba people are asking questions about the punch of the Minister of Conservation, the minister responsible for foxes; a minister who has been very sly in his answers to questions about the Prouse, Fitzjolm investigation into what happened at Hecla, an investigation conducted between December 7, '99, and some time in February 2000, the results of which were then provided both to senior people in the department and to a variety of people outside the department.

I understand that the results of the Prouse, Fitzjohn investigation were not provided to the original complainants. I ask the Minister of Conservation: When is he going to provide the full results of this investigation to the original complainants, the Joneses; or whether, in fact, he concluded the investigation was such a sham that it would not be appropriate to do so? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Before recognizing the honourable Minister of Conservation, I would like to remind all honourable members when addressing a minister it is by their official titles and no other way. Hon.

Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, I advised the member yesterday, I believe it was, that I take this matter very seriously, and that is why I have made a request to have a meeting with the Ombudsman to determine what further he feels needs to be done to carry out his recom mendations. I understand that meeting has been now set for June 6. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, it is good to hear of a little progress anyway.

I ask the Minister of Conservation when he first learned of the results of the internal Prouse, Fitzjohn investigation, and when did he first get personally involved in the file to make sure appropriate action was taken? Will the minister acknowledge, as Mr. Prouse himself indicated in a recent letter, that final decisions rest with the minister? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, I will again advise the Member for River Heights that I am not going to prejudge anything that is going to come out of any investigation that is being initiated by the Office of the Ombudsman and now by the provincial auditor.

I am simply going to meet with the Office of the Ombudsman, the Ombudsman himself, on June 6, and from there I will decide on a course of action. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, my second supplementary to the Minister of Conservation. I ask the minister why, in two and a half years since the original letters, has the Minister of Conservation not written directly to the Joneses, even though his deputy minister and the Premier have done so. Who is looking into serious issues in his department? Who is making decisions? Who is running his department? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Lathlin : Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I again want to indicate to the member that I will have further to report to this Legislature once I have met with the Ombuds man on June 6. Bridging Generations Initiative Status Report Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture. At Ag Days the minister announced the Bridging Generations Initiative. Can the minister indicate to the House what the uptake on this program has been? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I thank the Member for Dauphin for this question because it is a very important question.

When we took office we recognized that there was a huge amount of land that had to change from one generation to the other, and no action had been taken to address that, Mr. Speaker. We announced Project 2000, and the member is right I did announce the program at Ag Days. The program became official as of April 1, and I am very pleased to report that since April 1 we have had 31 applications. Of those, 23 have been approved, 8 are in the process of being reviewed and there are about 15

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2051 to 20 applications that are still at MACC offices across the province. So, although the Opposition said this was a useless program, it would not help any farmers, it is indeed helping young farmers take over farm operations in this province. Adult Learning Cen tres Funding Overpaymen t-Legal Action Mr. Harold Gillesham mer (Minne dosa): In the daily paper, Friday, April 12, the Minister of Education has quoted and I quote: "I fully expect some sort of civil action out there.

That is what I would expect the board to run on, not garrotting programs, Caldwell said in an interview. You can (also) have civil action launched by ratepayers." Is this an accurate reflection of what the minister said that day? Hon. Drew Ca ldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, as we know, the issue in Morris-Macdonald School Division has generated a great deal of interest throughout the province from taxpayers who have had money go to that division and be mismanaged.

Also in the local division, around this issue, quite reasonably I believe that the program of adult learning centres that were established in this province with no fiscal accountability, no legislative framework- Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Maybe the minister did not hear the question. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth, on the same point of order? Mr. Caldwell: I was getting to my answer, Mr. Speaker, when the member got up. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should deal with the matter that is raised. * * * Mr. Caldwell: As I said, there is throughout the province a great deal of concern, and has been over the last number of months. The provincial auditor's report identified very serious concerns. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, maybe this member does not have any respect for the Speaker, but I am sure I just heard you already on Beauchesne 417 tell the minister that he was ruled out of order. Could you remind the minister what will happen if he continues to be ruled out of order? I do believe this is the fourth time. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. * (14:10) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order.

I believe the questions were on the issue of accountability for the financial mis management and the difficulties that were discovered by the provincial auditor in Morris Macdonald School Division. Mr. Spea ker: Order. I must remind all honourable members again, a point of order is a very serious matter, and I have to hear the words that are spoken by the member who rises on a point of order, because if I cannot hear how can I make a ruling one way or the other. I cannot. So I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr.

Mackintosh: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. My understanding of the question and the series of questions is to the minister based on the issue of financial accountability and accountability generally for what happened in Morris-Macdonald School Division. It is within that context that the answers were offered. In terms of whether there is even a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I refer to Beauchesne Citation 416: A member may put a question but has no right to insist on an answer. There is an

2052 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 answer nonetheless. It is an answer in regard to the issue of financial accountability for what happened. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth, on the same point of order. Mr. Caldwell: Yes, on the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, if it would be helpful. The member was quoting from something in his hand. If he would table the document, it may help me in fact refer to what he is asking so that he could clarify this. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised, first, for clarification, Beauchesne 416 where a minister is not required to answer a question, that is in Beauchesne. But once the minister rises to answer the question, then the minister has to deal with the matter that is raised. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. When the question is put to the minister, Beauchesne 417 states: Answers to questions should be brief and deal with the matter that is raised. Ministers have the option of rising to deal with the matter or not even rising to answer.

So I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth, please conclude your answer. Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was framing a conclusion, but there seems to be an ongoing concern with members opposite. So I would again ask the member to table his document, so I could refer to it. Mr. Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): I would be pleased to table the article, which indicates exactly what the minister has said. I can fully understand why he is so embarrassed by this

article and by these comments. I would ask him again: Did he say that individual ratepayers from Morris-Macdonald should be responsible for that overpayment, that potential candidates running for school board should sue those third parties for the overpayments? Did he say that? Mr. Caldwell: Well, Mr. Speaker, the only embarrassment should be for the establishment of a program that sent tens of millions of dollars out this door without a legislative framework. Adult Learning Centres Funding Overpayment-Legal Action Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I want to quote from an

article on April 12. This is the

article that was just tabled. I want to quote. Minister Drew Caldwell said yesterday, and I quote: I fully expect some sort of civil action out there. That is what I would expect the board- Mr. Speaker: Order. Before we continue on, we are dealing with a Jot of points of order today. When making a reference to a minister, refer to the minister by the minister's portfolio or by their titles, even when quoting from an

article or a letter to refer to ministers by their titles and members by their constituencies. I ask the co operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Derkach: Thank you for your guidance, Mr. Speaker. I was simply quoting from the article, but I would certainly refer to the minister as the Minister of Education. He said, and I quote: I fully expect some sort of civil action out there. That is what I would expect the board to run on, not garrotting programs.

I want to ask the minister if in fact he did say this and if in fact he now has an official trustee who is supposed to represent the taxpayers and the department, would he then instruct his trustee to ensure that those funds are collected and that he indeed launches the civil suit? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): We are not instructing the trustee to do anything except manage in the best interests of students. I know that is a novel idea for members opposite, actually working on behalf of students, but that is what we are doing.

In fact, we are acting on behalf of all taxpayers in Manitoba on this issue, something I am surprised that members opposite seemed not to be doing.

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2053 Mr. Derkach : From his comments, is the minister saying that he is not responsible for the quote of April 12, 2002, where he said that ratepayers should be suing third parties to collect the monies from Morris-Macdonald School Division? Mr. Caldwell: Again, I am not going to have the Member for Russell put words in my mouth. We know that those are generally suspect. I will say, however, that we do not expect individuals to launch legal actions. We expect that the divisions will attend to this.

We expect that elected board members, when they are elected in October, will deal with this. We expect that the RCMP investigation into this matter will bring us some answers. I have confidence in the abilities of the RCMP if members opposite do not. I also believe that we in this Chamber should all be acting on behalf of all Manitoba taxpayers on this issue. Mr. Derkach : On a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach: This minister fired a board. He then put in place an official trustee.

He said that the board owes the Province $2.5 million, but when he was asked whether or not he would go after the individuals, who are card-carrying supporters of the NDP party, he says there is a police investigation. Why are there two stand ards in the mind of this minister? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Russell just asked a question. I ask all honourable members to have the courtesy of at least letting the member who raised the question hear the answer. It is very, very difficult to hear. Mr. Caldwell: I would like to table an

article in my response. I will wait, Mr. Speaker, until the members opposite have it. Mr. Speaker, the tabled paper, we had the member opposite making allegations and innuendo. The

article is from The Winnipeg Sun, and it starts: When you have been through as much political scandal as the Manitoba Tories have- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, on a new question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, the comments that I quoted- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Decorum is very, very important, especially to the viewing public. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, the comments that I quoted were made by the Minister of Education. They were made on Saturday, May 4, April 17. They were reported on May 4, April 17, April 13, and April 12. Mr. Speaker, did the minister once call a reporter to indicate that he was misquoted in the papers and that indeed he did not call on ratepayers to collect the money from the third parties? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I sat down. I was not finished my remarks when I tabled this. I guess in the general hullabaloo in the House, but- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr.

Mar cel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. This minister can table any documents he wants in the House, but if it is not dealing with the answer he should not be stating from them. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I understand why the other side would feel provoked, but, until the

2054 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 mm1ster has an ability to put the response forward, I do not know how there can be a point of order. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I did not hear enough words to determine if he was going to use those comments to answer the question or not. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth, to please answer the question. Mr. Caldwell: I tabled this article. I suppose we were both tabling newspaper stories today in around this question.

As I said, the newspaper article, when you have been through as much political scandal as the Manitoba Tories have, you start getting a little desperate to catch your opponents. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): I only hope we have heard enough. Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, every time this minister opens his mouth, he is provoking debate. We understand that, but if he could just answer a question. Mr. Caldwell: The Member for Minnedosa (Mr.

Gilleshammer), who answered the question, impugned the character of individuals in his question. That was improper, in my view. I was responding in a fashion that would respond to the innuendo the member was putting on the record. I did also say, in answer to the question, twice already in terms of this Question Period, that we do not expect individuals to launch legal action in Morris-Macdonald. * (14:20) Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, Beauchesne 417 is very clear. It says that ministers should deal with the matter that is raised. * * * Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education and Training, have you concluded your comments? The honourable Member for Russell. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, one final time, on a new question again. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach: The minister says that he is not encouraging individuals to go after third parties. Then why did he make the comments in the newspaper where he said that it is up to individual taxpayers, ratepayers and potential candidates to go after third parties to recoup the money that was as a result of the overstated enrolments? Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, we are just getting the same question over and over again. Members opposite should know Beauchesne Citation 408: Questions should not inquire whether statements made in a newspaper are correct. This Question Period is for obtaining information about the operations of departments. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, the question was totally in order.

The honourable minister has attempted to dance around this issue all afternoon. If he answers it directly and tells the truth to this House, that he did speak those words, then we will have the facts on the record. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, Beauchesne 408(

b) states questions should not inquire whether statements made in a newspaper are correct, but-[interjection} Mr. Speaker: Order. Manitoba practice has been to allow questions from newspapers, and it is entirely up to the minister if they choose to answer it or not.

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2055 Harness Racing Negotiations Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Mr. Speaker, for over a century the Manitoba Great Western Harness Racing Circuit has provided enter tainment and excitement to those who have come to witness this fast-paced action. During the 23 scheduled days of the 2002 harness racing season, people of all ages would have enjoyed watching some of the best racers in Canada compete. The first race date scheduled is June 30 in Holland or, I should say, was scheduled.

In all sincerity I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Industry, Trade and Mines, as I know the minister has been diligent in trying to solve the issue to resurrect an industry that is indeed important to Manitobans' life, our way of living in rural Manitoba. I would ask the minister: Could she please give this House, indeed, the people of Manitoba, through you, Mr. Speaker, an update on the negotiations of trying to resurrect that industry? Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): I rise on dealing with an important issue.

The negotiations are underway and I would not want to say anything that may affect negatively what I think is possible, and that is an industry solution. I believe that there is a strong argument that the federal legislation indicated a desire for the revenues of simulcast wagering to be shared amongst the local jurisdiction and the horse industries of those jurisdictions. This may be a persuasive argument in the negotiations.

We are confident that a solution for Manitoba can be found as has been found in other jurisdictions like Ontario, a solution that is an industry-based solution that ensures the viability of Manitoba's industry and the success of racing in Manitoba Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Before I go to members' statements, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us Ajay Chopra, who is a special assistant to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Verna J. Kirkness Institute Mr. Tom Nevakshon off (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to tell the Assembly of the grand opening and naming of an education and training facility in Fisher River on May 27, 2002. In honour of Vema J. Kirkness, who was born and raised in the community, the centre will now be known as the Vema J. Kirkness Institute of Higher Learning.

Doctor Kirkness, who can list among her other accolades an Aboriginal Achievement Award and is a recipient of the Order of Canada, has dedicated her life to the field of education and has played an instrumental role in advancing the delivery of this critical system to First Nations people.

In its first year, the new institute will deliver two programs: the Licensed Practical Nurses program in partnership with Assiniboine Community College of Brandon; and the first two years of the three-year bachelor of general studies degree program through the Brandon University Northern Teacher Education Program known as BUNTEP.

The LPN program is one of seven to be delivered in Aboriginal communities over the next five years with the assistance of a provincial government allocation totalling $1.2 million. * (14:30) I want to acknowledge the hard work and professionalism of the Fisher River Board of Education for their efforts in attracting these two critical programs to their community. On behalf of the Government of Manitoba and the people of the Interlake, I want to offer my sincere congratulations to Vema J. Kirkness for a stellar career and to the Fisher River Board of Education for a job well done.

2056 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 University Graduates Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to extend congratulations to all of the graduates receiving degrees from Manitoba's universities. I know all members of this Chamber join me in saluting the hard work and determination shown by the many people graduating this week. They indeed represent the future of our province, and their accom plishments are noteworthy and commendable. I would particularly like to acknowledge the achievement of Mr. Steven Fletcher, who is receiving his MBA from the University of Manitoba.

Steven is the first quadriplegic to complete an MBA at the U of M, and may quite possibly be the first anywhere in Canada. The completion of a graduate degree is a tremendous achievement for anyone, but to do so while facing the challenges Steven faces everyday is an outstanding and incredible accomplishment. Mr. Speaker, after completing a degree in engineering, Steven was in a tragic car accident that left him quadriplegic. He has said that it was his education that pulled him through the hard period after the accident, and his disability in no way tempered his academic dreams and ambitions.

He was determined to complete his MBA. The MBA program is demanding and arduous, but Steven persevered. He faced challenges that most of his classmates could not even imagine, but he surmounted them all. I know that all honourable members join me in congratulating Steven Fletcher and all of the graduates from Manitoba's universities and colleges on completing their degrees this spring. Bernie Wolfe Community School Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I want to recognize the 25th anniversary of Bernie Wolfe Community School and the Mission Gardens Play Centre in that school in the Radisson constituency.

In keeping with a long history in Transcona of naming schools after local leaders, Bernie Wolfe Community School was named after a very proud Transconian and former municipal councillor, Mr. Bernie Wolfe. It is fitting that he has a community school carrying his name. I learned recently, in talking with some of our staff, that his mother was a teacher of some of our staff in the Legislature here.

I wanted to congratulate the Bernie Wolfe Community School Anniversary Committee, the parents, the staff and the administration in the school division, as well as a number of partners that make the Bernie Wolfe Community School such an asset in the west Transcona area. The community school model is something that I, as well as our Government, strongly believe in, and Bernie Wolfe Community School, over the years, has been designed as a community school and certainly has fulfilled that vision.

I want to give special recognition to the Mission Gardens Play Centre which is a nursery school program that has provided school readiness and care for preschool children for 25 years in the Mission Gardens area and more recently to the before and after school program, the Spring Meadows program that runs an excellent in-school child care program for the community. I want to also recognize that Bernie Wolfe Community School was designed to be a joint use school with the city of Winnipeg. It houses a pool as well as an agreement for recreation and drop-in centre for the city of Winnipeg.

There is a Ukrainian bilingual program in the school. The Scouts are located there. There are senior volleyball leagues. I want to congratulate them for 25 years of service to the Transcona community. mywinkler.com Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Yesterday I had the privilege of bringing greetings at the launch of mywinkler.com. Mr. Speaker, mywinkler.com provides a complete source on the Internet for people to access information about businesses, Winkler's community organizations, schools, churches and more. Another key service accessible through this Web site is a regionally focussed on-line yellow pages directory.

This addition will provide economic development benefits as local businesses now have another avenue to connect with consumers in the community and beyond. It will greatly assist Walter Siemens, who is the

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2057 development officer for the area, as he pursues new initiatives. Mr. Speaker, mywinkler.com's partners have the ability to easily update the site, ensuring it is always current and relevant to consumers. Utilizing MTS technology, infrastructure and services, the launch of mywinkler.com represents MTS' first smart community project. MTS and the City of Winkler will continue working together to further develop an on-line community housed in mymanitoba.com. Winkler mayor Neil Schmidt is thrilled with the project.

He says, and I quote: This is a great opportunity for the City of Winkler to invest in leading edge technologies together with MTS. Our on-line presence and local expertise will provide the foundation for our businesses and community to gain maximum value from the Internet. Mr. Speaker, I, too, am very pleased that such a project has been developed that gives Winkler a valuable presence on the World Wide Web and allows it access to some of the same competitive and civic advantages as larger urban centres.

I would like to commend the two partners in this excursion, MTS and the City of Winkler, on bringing this project to fruition. I would also encourage MTS to expand this initiative to other communities throughout Manitoba. Sunset Ceremony Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): I rise today to talk about an impressive event I attended recently. A sunset ceremony was held last Sunday, May 26, at the Second Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry Kapyong Barracks. The ceremony was put on to honour the Canadian forces who are on duty or supporting the war in Afghanistan. It took place from 6:30 p.m. to 9 p.m.

It was put on by six cadet units representing sea, army and air cadet corps, squadrons and divisions. Their ages ranged from 12 to 18 years old. This was a very special ceremony commanded by Capt. Keith McLean, and the reviewing officer was Major-General Steven Lucas, Commander of First Canadian Air Division, Winnipeg. The sunset ceremony is a traditional and ceremonial evening parade for the military, which historically took place to gather together troops to ensure that all guns were safe and cleared, that the guard changed for the evening and that the flag was lowered for the night.

Today the ceremony has a more symbolic purpose. The bands of the 407th Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders Of Canada Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps, the 170th Royal Canadian Air Cadet Squadron and the Skirmishers of the 2295th Royal Winnipeg Rifles Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps all put on performances. There were marches, the RO's address and a flag-lowering ceremony. Their precision and showmanship was admirable, reflecting dedication and much hard work. The idea for this ceremony came from the CO of the 553 rd RCACC Tommy Prince Corps and his staff.

I was very moved by the experience and glad they put this idea into motion. I would like to thank all the units who participated in this event. I would like also to congratulate the outstanding cadets, one per unit, who were presented with awards. Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank and congratulate all involved for a job well done in putting on this very touching ceremony. * (14:30) ORDERS OF. THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, is there leave to call it six o'clock at 5 p.m.? Mr.

Speaker: Is there leave to call it six o'clock at 5 p.m.? [Agreed} Mr. Mack intosh : Mr. Speaker, would you please call Bill 14, and following that we will resume Supply. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 14-The Public Schools Modernization Act (Public Schools Act Amended) Mr. Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 14, The Public Schools

2058 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 Modernization Act (Public Schools Act Amend ed), standing in the name of the honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer). Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Minnedosa? {Agreed} Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I am pleased to rise to add my comments on Bill 14, the amendment to The Public Schools Act, the modernization of The Public Schools Act in the province of Manitoba. I want to start. I have several comments because my colleague the Member for Radisson (Ms.

Cerilli) and I had the opportunity to consult quite broadly with members of our community with respect to the modernization and to the issues that are contained within Bill 14. Mr. Speaker, I know if we want to put this in chronological sequence of events, we can refer back to the fact that the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) had undertaken a review of school divisions in this province and had communicated his thoughts to the various school divisions' boards of trustees early on in the mandate of this Government.

At that time, the minister indicated there was a preference to go towards voluntary amalgamations.

After that period of time had elapsed where boards had a chance to respond to the minister, of course, there were opportunities for boards to give their comments back to the minister, but the minister also again asked for some progress on the modernization of the number of school divisions in the province. * (14:40) Iri keeping with the comments that were made publicly by the minister, and I know members opposite are quite familiar with what has been said, my colleague the Member for Radisson and I recognized there would be a need to consult with our community stakeholders in this process.

We undertook to meet with every stakeholder group in our communities. In fact, I can say quite clearly that I undertook to meet with every school community council on the issue of school boundaries, school divisions' modernization. We held 12 open public meetings in my community for the residents of the community.

I asked the leaders of the parent councils to notify the interested parties in their sections of the community of Transcona to make the members of the public aware that there was an opportunity to come out and consult broadly and to ask any questions they might have on their minds with respect to this process. Mr. Speaker, we received a fair amount of feedback on this. I said right from the beginning to the members of the parent council that I was prepared to take their thoughts, their ideas back to our caucus and to share those thoughts and ideas with the members of my caucus.

My colleague and I have undertaken that respon sibility right from the very beginning, because we wanted to make sure everyone was aware of the issues that were out there. I will go into that in a few moments about what some of those Issues were. I do not know if other members of this Legislature had the opportunity to go out and consult with their respective parent councils or their stakeholder groups. I do know in Transcona, Mr.

Speaker, in addition to the 12 school community councils that we met with, we also met with the teachers, the Transcona Teachers' Association, we met with the school trustees, the whole board of trustees, nine of them. We also met with the superintendent and we met with other members of the community who had an interest m the Schools Modernization. We received a number of good and valid suggestions back with respect to this issue.

I do know, and I am sure other members of this Legislature have received information, about the support that MAST has shown through resolution, asking for all members of the Legislative Assembly to get on with this process, not to stall it, and that it is common knowledge that MAST supports. It is also interesting and noteworthy to put on the record that Manitoba Teachers' Society has also indicated their public support for this process. I am not saying that there are not some wrinkles in the process as this moves along, but those problems would be identified by the

May 30, 2002 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2059 individual stakeholder groups. They would then raise those issues, as they have done, and share those with members of our Government. Of course, they have been addressed in large part. Now I know that there have been letters received. I have received letters from other school divisions with respect to the way that this process is unfolding in this Legislative Assembly. I know members opposite, to this point for some reason, have not taken the opportunity to debate this particular piece of legislation.

But I do know that the trustees of the Boundary School Division No. 16 have indicated to members of the Legislative Assembly that they are dismayed that the legislation in the form of Bill 14 may not be passed and proclaimed in time to facilitate the move, and that they have spent countless hours in preparing for the merger of school divisions, and that the delay of this legislation is going to create some unnecessary problems and unnecessary expenses for that particular school division.

So I hope members opposite keep it in mind that they are creating some problems by not allowing this legislation to go through further debate. Now this legislation will reduce the number of school divisions from 54 down to 38 and will bring about, I believe, some greater efficiencies. Of course, through that process there will be a reduction in the number of trustees, I think, of around 31 percent as a result of Bill 14. That means that there will be some administrative savings in that regard as well.

I do note that, in the Norrie Commission report that made reference to my community and the splitting of the community, and, if you want to reference page 147 of the Norrie Commission, there is cornn 1ent in there about Transcona Springfield School Division in specific, the recommendations contained in the Norrie report indicate that there should be some four divisions inside the city of Winnipeg boundaries. Now, in consultation with my community, there were a number of issues that were raised, and I will relate to them.

There are three distinct and, I guess, separate types of high school functions within the community, although they all have their academic components that are similar. If you look at the three high schools, you have Transcona Collegiate that has an arts program incorporated with its academic programs. I know the high school and the surrounding community, and student population and teachers take great pride in the achievements of that high school with respect to their programm ing.

In Murdoch MacKay Collegiate, they have a vocational program attached to their academic program and they have great pride in the skill level and the skills themselves that they teach and provide for the young people taking

part in those programs. I know the school parent council and the surrounding community, and students and teachers, are proud of what they have accomplished through their programming. In addition to those two high schools, we have College Pierre-Elliott-Trudeau that is a French immersion program high school, a single track program in my community. I know, having my own children as part of that particular program, there is a great opportunity in that school for language instruction as one of the two official Canadian languages for the young people of my community.

So we have three distinct high schools within the community offering different types and levels of service and programs. During the consultation with the parents and the parent councils stakeholders in the community regarding education, one of the issues that came up in just about every meeting that we had was the fact of the language instruction programs. We are fortunate in Transcona-Springfield School Division currently that we have a French immersion program that is single track. I know the trustees that have worked long and hard, Mrs.

Mary Andree and other trustees who have worked long and hard on this program to keep it functioning and are proud of it, would not want to see this program diminished. I note that the members of the parent council have raised that issue with me. There are also discussions with other parent councils with respect to the Ukrainian language programming that is offered through one of the other elementary schools in the community. It had been originally Westview School but then it moved to Bernie Wolfe School. So there is some concern about the Ukrainian language program as well.

Now the purpose and the issues that were important to the parent councils that we talked to, was the transparency of the process. That is why we went out to our parent councils and to

2060 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 all of our stakeholder groups, to consult with them broadly about what their viewpoints were. We wanted to share with them. While there was no plan that had been announced at that time and there was not a complete or thorough inf orma tion package available for them, we shared with the parent councils everything that we knew at that particular time. * (14: 50) We do know that Schools of Choice was an issue, and I know it is an issue for other parent councils in schools that are on the rural component of the Trans cona-Springf ield School Division.

I have told our caucus that this issue is important, on behalf of the parent councils and the people that I have talked to that live in the Springfield side of the school division, but they want to see that there is an opportunity for Schools of Choice to continue for those students that are currently enrolled in either the vocational, the arts, or the language high schools within the community. I know our minister has responded to that by indicating that there would be a grandparent ing of students that are curren tly enrolled in the high school itself under the current programs.

With respect to new students coming into the school, of course, there would be the opportunity, space permitting, because, as River East and a portion of the Transc ona-Sprin gfield School Division merge, there would be opportunities for the students, the young people in River East School Division, to share of the existing programs that are available in the Tran scona school division portion. I do know that there are opportunities in the River East side, and I am familiar with some of the programming that is offered in River East School Division currently.

I must say that there are some opportun ities available for the young people of my community to participate, once the school divisions are merged, in those programs, whether it would be Kildonan East Collegiate, or Miles Macdone ll, or other school facilities and programs. But I do know that there are synergies that can occur as a result of the merger between the Tran scona portion and the River East portion of school divisions in the city of Winn ipeg.

Now I could go on and talk about the cuts to education that have occurred over the course of the 12 years that I have been here and have had to fight against by members opposite that imposed those cuts in education funding for my community. But that is an argument that has been well documented and recorded and I will not go into those comments.

I do know that, in Bill 14 , it will require a number of years to implement the process, and that the school divisions, through the blending of their functions, whether it would be their administrative functions or their programming or their other activities related to the merger with respect to collective agreements with their employee groups, will take a number of years to implement the complete merger of those activities.

So I know that, and have indicated to the members of my public, that this is not just a short-term process, and it will require some patience over a period of time to allow this whole process to unf old. There has been some concern in the rural components of the Transcona- Sprin gfield School Division, concerns about small school closures. I do know that, even in my own community of Transcona, there has been some concern about small school closures. This issue, I believe, has been addressed, and I have raised this issue with my caucus to make them aware that this is also a concern within the community.

There will be, of course, a moratorium on any school closures for three years except, I suppose, where members of parent councils or the school division would make a request in con junction with the parent councils to have such an item move forward. Now I do know that this Bill 14, The Public Schools Moderniz ation Act, will provide for an admini strative cap on expenses, limiting it to 4 percent in urban areas, like Winnipeg, and that the rural areas will have a cap of about 4 1/2 percent on their administration costs.

Now, when we look at some of the savings areas that can occur with respect to payroll, human resources, purchasing, technology, superintendents and treasurers, some of the support staf f associated with that, there will be some administrative costs in addition to the reduction in the overall number of trustees through the reduction of the number of school divisions in the provinc e. It is our

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2061 intention to have those dollars go directly into the classroom for the benefit of students. I do know that special needs has been an issue in my community, and I have raised it with the previous government a number of times. I have raised it with our Government, and I am quite hopeful that some of the money that is saved as a result of school division mergers will find its way into special needs support programs for the young people that are currently in our schools and for those that will be following in the future.

Now school division property taxes, as I am sure all members have encountered here, has been an issue for us. I know that, probably, the single largest issue that I have encou ntered in my community over the course of the last number of years has been the issue of school property taxes on the municipal tax bill. I do know that this issue, this Schools Modernization Act, we hope, will move towards a reduction in those property taxes, and that we have, as a government, committed to reduce the education support levy by 10 percent this year.

That was announced in the Budget, which, I think, will incur a savings of about $35-$40 on the average home in my community this current budget year. I do know that we have also committed to phase out the education support levy over a period of time which will phase out the whole amount so there will be a 100% savings for the residents in my community. As a government, we committed to move towards property tax credits. I know the previous government had reduced the property tax credits down to $250, and it was an issue in the last election campaign.

Our Government committed to restoring it back to its original level. In fact, we also committed to boosting that up a further $75. So the total property tax rebate now to the homeowners of my community and, I think, to most homes in this province, is $400, which means that there is $53 million more back into the pockets of Manitobans, that they have saved as a result of our property tax credits increases.

We have, as a result of governn 1ent functions through the Public Schools Finance Board, approved and have now been completed an addition to Tran scona Collegiate phase 1, and I believe that we are moving to phase 2 which will move towards the improvement of the exterior and the roof of iliat particular structure. That will ensure a longer life span for that particular facility and not inconvenience the teachers, the staff and the students of that particular high school. So I am proud that we have been able to make that addition to that high school.

Now one of the issues iliat I did hear was with respect to the sustainability of low enro lment schools. I know, in the Norrie Com mission report, it ref erenced the fact that there would not be any optimum level of enrolment, because there are so many varying factors that have to be taken into consideration.

But it is my understanding, in reading through the report, that there was a reference to 15 000, perhaps, being an optimum range or thereabouts, student enrollment, full-time equiv alent population in the school division, and that, with the merger of the Transcona portion and the River East portion, we will be in the range, slightly over the 15 000 student population. So that will fall close to the recommendation of the Norrie Commission report. Now I do know that there has been some interim board functioning.

The two school division boards have come together, and there were some problems originally that had occurred as a result of that. There was, perhaps, some intra nsigence on the part of some of the trustees to want to see this process move forward. But I think the wiser heads, or cooler heads, have prevailed in that case, and the trustees have now had some very serious discussions and have moved forward with the merger of the River East and the Transcona portions of the two school divisions. I have had the opportunity to sit in the meetings.

Not only did I talk with the trustees of the Transco na-Springfield School Division, but I have had the opportunity to meet with the members of the Agassiz School Division and the River East School Division, and, on a particular number of times, with the River East trustees. I have had some discussions with them, very frank and very fruitful discussions, and they, too, want to see this process move forward in a way that will be in the best interests of students.

2062 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 So, in the past, I know that there has been much said about the activities and the function of the Transcona-Spr ingfield School Board. I do know that the people there are dedicated and with the purpose in mind of assisting and doing what is best for the student population.

I hope that with the merger of these two school divisions, both on the Springfield and Agassiz side, and then Pine Falls when that should occur, and on the River East-Transcona side, that the work of the trustees will continue, as I am sure it will, with the best interests of the students in mind. I have committed to the trustees, whoever they may be, because there are municipal elections occurring in the fall of this year, October 22, I believe, that I would be more than prepared to sit down with those trustees at any time and talk with them about the issues regarding education for our mutual communities.

I want to make sure that item, that commitment, is on the record. I am prepared to sit and work with them and I have commenced those discussions with trustees, both on the Transcona side and on the River East side, to make sure that the items and the issues that I am hearing about, and my office is hearing about, are brought to their attention as well, and vice versa, from their part to me, through to our ministry. Now I think there are more opportunities to devote resources to the classroom, as I have said.

I am hoping that, while there are quite a number of decisions to be made with respect to school divisions' activities and programming and opportunities for our students now and in the future, I have indicated to my community that a lot of those decisions are going to be left in the hands of the trustees themselves, whoever they may be after October 22, and for the interim boards that are currently in place and working towards the merger. * (15 :00) I have indicated, to my community parent councils and to other stakeholders, that the October 22nd municipal elections that will also include elections for trustees will, perhaps, be the most important elections that we have had in this province, municipally, in many decades.

The school trustees that will be elected to fill that new role will be establishing a new policy direction that will provide guidance to those respective school divisions for the next 20, 30, or 40 years, because it has been since 19 59 that the school division boundaries have been adjusted.

You can see that there have been at least 42 years passed in the interim here since the last boundaries adjustment, so that the trustees that will be coming forward after the municipal elections will have significa nt impact on where the combined school divisions will proceed in the future and the types of opportunities that they will provide for our students and our children.

Now I am hoping that, with respect to Bill 14, The Public Schools Modernization Act, as we have committed to do in the past, we will continue to work in partnership with the parents, the parent councils, the teachers, the trustees, and that, as a member of the Legislature, and I know the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) has committed to do this in partnership with all of the stakeholders involved in education for the benefit of our children. I know that our minister has indicated, over and over again, his commitment to that.

I know that our Govern ment is committed to that, and that I myself, as the MLA for the community, am committed to making sure that we do what is in the best interests of the children of our respective communities, as we try to progress and improve the efficiency, the equity and the high quality of our public education system. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to add my comments here today on Biii 14, The Public Schools Modernization Act. Hon. Jean Friesen (Minister of Inter governmental Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of [interjection] We move into Supply? Mr.

Speaker: Are there any other speakers on Bill 14 ? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: The bill will remain standing. When it is called again, it will remain standing

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2063 in the name of the honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer). Now we will revert to Committee of Supply. * (15:10 ) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSE RVATION Mr. Cha irperson (Harry Schellen berg): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume conside ration of the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. Item 12 .8. Inf rastructure and Minor Capital Projects (

a) Equipment $460,600. Mr. Ha rry Enns (Lakeside): This is a sizeable amount, some $8-million-plus for various minor capital projects that include a host of activities that the department is engaged in. I wonder if the minister can provide some kind of a breakdown. Prior to the reorganization of the department, well, I do not know if that is responsible for it, but it was easier to get a handle on, for instance, the kind of maintenance, repair work that was being done, for instance, in our park system along with the other things.

Can the minister give us a bit of an overview about where this $8 million is going to be spent. Earlier on in the Estimates when we were dealing with the water resources department, you know, we learned that out of the roughly $4 million that was being asked for there, you know, the minister did give us a breakdown as to the area where the money was being spent. A consi derable amount was in replacing water course bridges, others for maintenance of various drainage systems.

This is a very general heading here that talks about upgrades and construction of park facilities, bridges, waterways, dams, flood control works, obstruc tion of water control structures, interpretive facilities. How does this $8 million break down? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): The member references the $8 million number. That represents three parts of the Estimates book that we have, the first one being equipment, the other one being water projects, and the third one being parks.

I think what we will do is we will go through the first one, equipment, first and try to break it down for the member. There is a total of $460,600. That is broken down further into minor equipment and facility maintena nce, $265 ,000, and that means, you know, purchase of minor field equipment to support depart mental programs and funding maintena nce work that gets done on things like fish hatcheries and wildlife management facilities. So that is the $265 ,000 part of the $460,000. The other one, $1 95,000 is regional and minor equipment and inf rastructure.

This program is allocated annually to regions for inf rastructure repair and replacement, things like district storage sheds, office and equipment, warehouses, and even minor capital equipment replacement. So that totals for $460,000. The other one, water projects, the total there is $4.39 million. Mr. Enns: Pardon me for interr upting the minister, but just that I am clear. Is this the same $4.4 million that we touched on earlier in terms of maintenance of drainage systems, or is this in addition to that? Mr. Lathlin: I believe that this is the same money that we had covered earlier.

I believe what we did earlier was when we were talking about the Budget earlier, we were talking primarily drainage, so yes. Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman , a lot of this money is the heart and guts of the department in terms of where you really impact on the capability of the department field staf f to perform and what the general public sees what the department is doing in parks or on their waterways and so forth. I am disturbed to see just about a million dollar reduction here over last year. Last year we had estimated for expenditure on this item some $9,655 ,000.

This year you are asking for $8, 655, 000, just about a million dollars less. * (15 :20) Now, Mr. Chairn1an, that does not quite ring true with the statements that you, Mr. Minister,

2064 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 have en joyed making, particularly about how absolutely nothing was done for the last 11 years when previous administra tion was in office and how you are tran sforming the landscape. You have listened to the agr icultural community about the need for drainage and so forth. I know the same thing can be said about our beautiful parks. Our park system, our inventory of park structures is getting old. It needs cons tant upgrading and maintena nce.

But here we are, we are spending a million dollars less on this, what I really think to be the heart and soul of your department. We have got a million dollars just about to spend on what I call airy-fairy things like what we ought to do with the Kyoto Accord. Quite frankly, I do not know what Manitoba's respon sibility in that direction is. I know the minister is taken up with it, and I know he has en joyed hobnobbing with his colleagues in that fine province of Prince Edward Island recently.

But when I see a million dollars less for fixing park benches, for fixing park harbours, for fixing park facilities; when I see a million dollars less for replacing an old piece of equipment that the department has been fighting with and paying maintenance bills over and over again to keep on the road; when I see a million dollars less, despite what you have said about your increased emphasis on drainage, if it is out of this budget that your maintenance for drainage monies comes from; there is a million dollars short here.

I would like the minister to explain where is he cutting the million dollars on this item over last year? Mr. Lathlin : Mr. Chairperson, what we spent on spring flooding this year is $2 million less than what we anticipated. What we are spending on drainage this year is $1 million more, so therefore overall it is down $1 million. Now, if I can get into the specifics for the member, the decrease that we see, for example the Fairford bridge and control structure, that was budgeted for $675,0 00. We are postponing that. We cannot do the work this year anyway, so we are postponing that project.

The other part that makes up the $1 million, Mr. Chairperson, can be found in the Parks area. There was a decrease of $325 ,000, so that makes up the $I million. Mr. Enos: In what area? I did not hear. I did not catch the minister's final comment, the other postponement of a project. In what area was that? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, it was in the area of Park Facilities, $325 ,000. So that makes up the $675 ,000 and the $325 ,000. Mr. Enos : So we are spending some $300,000 to $35 0,000 less in Park Maintenance this year than was anticipated. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, yes, that is true.

Let me tell the member where specifically the decreases occurred. In Park Inf rastructure and Facility Renewal, there is a whole bunch of small projects totalling $I 25 ,000. In the Park Road Maintenance, the Spruce Woods erosion control and road upgrading, $50,000. The Park Enhancement Projects, the Falcon Lake develop ment initiative was decreased by $50,000, and the Park Districts, we have deferred payment of the Manitoba Water Services Board by $I OO,OOO. So that totals to $325 ,000. Mr. Eons: Mr.

Chairman , I should indica te to the minis ter that I en joyed a bit of fishing in the Whiteshell last week up on Big Whiteshell Lake, and I had the opportunity to travel on the Parks Road 307, the entr ance from I guess you would call it the mid-park provincial road off Highway No. II at River Hill community. The past few years, the department had a reconstruction program of that well-travelled road, and it is well on its way past the first two lakes, Dorothy Lake, Eleanor Lake, but then, Mr. Mini ster, the road really deteriorates.

I mean, like, not to offend the sensitive ears of our staff recorder here, but it is just plain rat shit, that road. Mr. Ch airper son: Excuse me. I would like to caution the Member for Lakeside not to use unparl iamentary language. I just want to caution the Member for Lakeside. Thank you. Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, I will def er to your admonition but I would like you, for future

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2065 referenc e, to point out to me, I mean, we do have a list of unparliamentary words that I am well aware of in our little blue guidebook. I tend to go to bed reading that rule book every night before I come to committee just so I will never transgress a rule, but I do not think you will find that word as being unparliamentary. But I think the minister understands what I was getting at. The road is in poor shape. Earlier on in our discussion of your Estimates, Mr. Minister, we have detennined that we have millions of people coming to enj oy our parks.

I believe the number is upwards to 5 million people who visit our parks. I just want to encourage the minister, and I want to indicate to him I will go to bat for him to find him an extra million dollars somewhere for this kind of work in his department. Can I ask the specific question: Is there any work in the future scheduled for that important thoroughfare that cuts right through one of our most popular parks that services over a dozen lakes- Brereton, Whiteshell, Jessica, Betula, Dorothy, Eleanor-and is visited by many hundreds of thousands of our citizens?

It is a road with dangerous curves and very little shoulders in many respects, so it is important that road be looked at by the department. Mr. Lathlin: Parks' roads, as the member, I am sure, knows from his time as a minister, are a long-standing problem. Since we have been in government, I have been in discussions with highways and tran sportation with a view to try to delinea te respons ibility. Is it a hi ghways and transportation responsibi lity or is it a Parks responsibilit y? We are going to continue to do that.

I sometimes, albeit reluctantly, tell people that Conse rvation is not the department of highways and yet we are responsible for several hundred miles of roads, but we try our best. We do the best we can. The road the member is referring to is the Provincial Road 307. The Department of Trans portation is respon sible for that one. We can check, and I will get the inf ormation from Transportat ion. The one message I want to give to the member, though, Mr.

Chairperson, is we rec ognize the problem and we are going to do our best to co-operate with the Department of Tran sportation to make sure that these roads are looked after. * (15 :30) Mr. Enos: I tend to agree with the minister. I think within government we ought to let those people who are most expert in their particular field, Mr. Chair, deal with the field. Certainly, Transportation is the shop, is the department that builds highways, builds roads in the province.

I would be only too happy to offer any support I can to the minister in his effort to help convince the department of highways to take on the responsibility of road maintenance and road construction within the Parks structure, obviously co-ordinated with the Parks people. Highway engineers, having had the opportunity of being associated with that department as well, Mr. Minister, they some times need to be feared.

If they see one lone tree two miles in the distance, they generally aim for it and make sure they knock it down when they demand their 990-foot right of way on either side of the highway to put in a roadwork. I do not think I or anyb ody else would want to see our park system decimated by that approach, but under the guidance and with the help of the Parks people, highways certainly knows how to build a road.

I see nothing wrong with transf erring that responsibility to highways and transportation and would encourage the minister to not give up on his efforts to have highways take more respons ibility for the maintenance and construction of these roads. It is that department, after all, that gets upwards to $10 0 million, $15 0 million, if not $200 million, in vehicle registrations and revenues-ga soline, provincial gas revenues -for the building and maintenance of our highways, and, certainly, these people are all contributing to that revenue that the department of highways and transportat ion receives. Mr.

Chairman, my colleague from Pembina has a few questions that he wants to ask with respect to his area. It may be fudging a little bit on some past areas that we covered but not in a

2066 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 serious way. This is, again, a fairly general appropriation that covers construction work of all kinds throughout the province by the department, and I should accommodate him. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I do have a few questions and I think, right now, that you are dealing with capital proje cts.

I represent the area that has the Pembina Valley and, of course, the Pembina River, and it has always been my contention that, rather than send all our water, especially during the years when we have flooding, but to send it, first of all, east as quickly as we can and then send it north as quickly as we can, it would serve our purposes much better if we could retain it in some way. So, with that in mind, I know also that the International Joint Commission, in studies that have been done over the years, has been looking at the possibility of the construction of the Pembina River dam.

Now I am just wondering if there is still any discussion in that, if there is a possibility as you work through the International Joint Com mission, if they are looking at this as a feasible project. I realize it encompasses international waters, the international border, so, truly, they do have to work together on this project. But I am just wondering where the status is of these discussions.

I know that, with the budget that you have here, you would certainly not be able to build a dam of that magnitude, but, on the other hand, I know that, presently, the discussions and those that I have had with some of the U.S. people, there seems to be an openness and some receptiveness to looking at a project like that. · I know that, because, again, it is international, the federal government would have to become involved as well. But I am just wondering if there is any discussion that is taking place, if there is any possibility at all.

Maybe I can just add to this, and that is, the area of Winkler and Morden, those two areas are increasing in population. In fact, Winkler will be getting the status of being a city this year. So the growth is there. I think the census that was just let out indicated fairly clearly that the fastest growing areas in the rural area were Winkler and Morden. So, with that in mind, we need water. This would be a good way of retaining water and would also help us, first of all, if we get potable water but also for irrigation. Added to that, of course, the area is looking at increasing the potato acreage.

It seems to be a requirement now from some of the process ors that there needs to be accessibility to water for irrigation. So, maybe, if you could just-my question is specific to the Pembina dam as to where the status is and what the plans of the department are on that one. Mr. Lath lin: I thank the member for the question. I would like to advise him that-I think he is probably aware and I think he has said this-a number of studies have been done on the Pembina dam. We are not aware that the IJC is looking at any potential projects on the Pembina.

The issue, certainly, has been raised by the member and by his colleague, the Member for Emerson. What I would like to suggest to the member at this time is to ask our water resources branch to provide us with a

summary of past studies and what we might do to discuss this matter further on a local basis. So that is what I would suggest to the member. Mr. Eons: Mr. Chairman, my collea gue opens up an area that, in my opinion, is probably one of the most important matters that this department faces over the next few years. My collea gue from Portage Ia Prairie� who has a very specific interest in this whole matter, will be joining me shortly, and that is the matter of water retention in the province, in our whole strategy with respect to water.

The minister has made several references to the developments of an overall strategy for water management, and I concur with that. I want to indicate to the minister that he has, if he chooses, every right to be critical of a government that I was part of for not having pursued on some of the matters that I will now bring to the table, although I make the obser vation that sometimes it just needs to be the right time for specific major projects to proceed. * (15 :40) It was my privilege, for instance, to have joined government when the last contract on the Winnipeg Floodway was signed.

I, indeed, was the minister then signing it, water resources

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2067 being within the Department of Agriculture. It was my privilege to tender the contracts for the Portage Diversion and to tender the initial contracts for the Shellmouth Dam. That generation dealt with the horrendous after effects of the 19 50 flood; the royal commission of inquiry followed that, and the recom mendation of the expenditures of some $10 0- million-plus for those three structures: the Winnipeg Floodway, the Portage Diversion and the Shellmouth Dam, which have served us, as just about everybody acknowledges, reasonably well over these many years.

With the benefit of hindsig ht, I should inform the minister that the question about the use of the Portage Diversion as part of that scheme was controversial then, as it still continues to be controversial. Indeed, I lost a good colleague, a Cabinet minister in that election from Portage la Prairie, a Conservative by the name of John Christianson, who lost on the single issue of the Portage Diversion being recommended to be built.

At that time there was a lot of controversy about a matter in which a host of work, I would say upwards to millions of dollars of detailed work, had been done with respect to a further dam on the Assiniboine River, and the optimal choice was the dam at Holland. They looked at four sites, from Rathwell to Alexander. As recently as the last NDP government acknowl edged this importance and resurrected it again, and I have letters here. I will let my colleague from Portage do that.

As I say with the benefit of hindsight now, and with the whole question of global warming and what that may change in future decades in terms of water supply and, even most recently, the massive intervention in agriculture by the U.S. government, the minister, I know, does not daily follow the market reports and the price of wheat and Canola, but he is aware of the fact that Canadian farmers and Prairie farmers are facing a specific challenge. Our answer to that is more diversified crops, crops, regrettably, however, that will be more dependent on stable water suppl ies.

If the minister can, for a moment, visualize a body of water, two times, three times, four times the size of Lake of the Prairies that we talked a great deal about in these Estimates, in the centre of our province, in that rich part of our province that could support two or three more Simplots, and the heck with the Yanks and their wheat subsidies, we will grow potatoes and other things.

Much has been said about the Garrison reservoir, but it is worthwhile to go down and visit that, particularly on a holiday weekend when they have sailing regattas on it and just a host of recreational activities on that man-made reservoir. That kind of reservoir would make Spruce Woods Park an instant jewel. It already is, but it would rival anything we have in the Whiteshell or up in your area with a lake like Clea rwater Lake. To have a body of water of that kind available, and where is it situated?

It is situated in some of our richest farmlands, adjacent to our richest farmlands, the Portage plains, channels that could service all the way to the U.S. border, Morden, Winkler, some of our most productive areas. The time, in my humble opinion, has come for that to happen. You might tell me why I did not do it and I must admit, if I get to write my memoirs one of these days, I will acknowledge this as being my biggest failure. Having had the privilege of being Minister of Natural Resour ces three times, it sounds even more impressive when I say that over a period spanning four decades, why did I not do it?

I could not convince my tight-fisted Conservative col leagues to go along with this visionary plan. The times were different. As I said, my first crack at it, the vision was there, and $10 0 million was spent to flood protect our major areas such as Winnipeg, Brandon, and that was done. My second crack at it, the minister may not recall, it was relatively short, was the Sterling Lyon regime. It was always characterized by the regime of acute restraint where governments were, for the first time, beginning to come to grips with the fact of how much money governments had to spend.

Besides, it was such a short time, far too short, four years. I just barely got comfortable in my ministerial office and then you guys kicked me out again. In the waning years of the Pawley ad ministration, your colleague, Mr. John Plohman,

2068 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 and others revived these studies and were beginning to take a serious look at it. The time has come. Times are better in the province. We have come to grips with our fiscal problems. We, and even you, are dedicated and committed to balanced budgets. We are paying off our debt. We can take the next stride forward in the development of this province. What always astounded me, in even those years, was that your government will come in and, without batting an eye, commit $6 or $700 million to Wuskwatim to the next hydro dam.

We are talking about committing $6 or $700 million to further flood protection, right now. We have an item of $18 million that we are coming to in your Estimates in a little while. I meant to make this speech in front of some of these inquiries, but the road to somewhere is paved with good intentions, they say. I never did get there. * ( 1 5: 50) I wonder, and following on the question of the member from Pembina, I know that there have been studi es. I heard of one study that the Pembina River, in flood stage, contributes upwards of 7 percent of the flow of the Red River.

I know that the Ass iniboine, when in conjunction with the Red in full flow, is what really created the 19 50 disaster. That is why we have the Shellmouth up there now so that we can stage the flow on the Assiniboine better. I am wondering how much work there was done even before the current plans. How much more control would we have if we had a further structure at Hol land that could hold back and further fine tune the staging of the Assiniboine flow? How would that impact on the require ments for further flood protection?

Would that make my friend from Selkirk fed a little more comfortable, instead of just building the current ditch bigger so it can handle more water faster and get it dumped on his constituency faster with no thought being given to his constituents? We are talking about a relatively modest structure, in today's terms. In my time, it was $14 0-15 0 million.

Now, I believe, it is upwards of $300 million, which includes channels all the way down to Morden, Winkler that would rival southern Alberta with respect to how roughly 4 percent of the land base in southern Alberta produces upward to 60 percent of the agri cultural product of that province. If you do not believe me, ask that gentleman over there, Mr. Topping, who has some under standing about what I am talking about. He also has some understanding about building dams. He might have been around when the Oldman River Dam or a few others were built.

If you ask the people of Saskatchewan right now where weather reports are coming in about dust storm warnings, about the merits of Rafferty and Alameda, which the naysayers said would take 15, 20 years to fill, they filled in 3 years, Mr. Chair. They are going to provide an asset to that southeastern part of Saskatchewan from here on in, just as the Shellmouth Dam does for my colleague the member from Roblin Russell, and which we are fighting about.

Not him because of the asset that was created on Lake of the Prairies both for recreational facilities, for fishing facilities, for flood protec tion, for increasingly important water control which is high on your list, Mr. Minister. More and more communities are taking their water, in fact, a lot of my constituency most recently, one of the most recent facilities that went on line from the Assiniboine is the Cartier water treatment facilities.

We have MacDonald treatment facilities; we have Portage; we have an increasing number of Manitobans looking to the Assiniboine for their potable water supply, never mind irrigation for the farmers. Now, putting together a body of water and there are different projects here being touted, my understanding is it would create a body of water three to four times the size of the current Lake of the Prairies. It would impact on six landowners, very minimal environmental damage. Oh, the tree buggers will find every reason to stop you. The Ass iniboine Valley begins its valley formation right about at Holland.

So for the size of the acreage of feet, I think, less than 18 000 acres of land are actually impacted and a portion of it, admittedly, is part of your Spruce Woods Park which you already own. I say the trade-off of giving up a few parkland acres for flooding to adding a beautiful lake the size of Lake of the

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2069 Prairies as part of the park far outweighs the downside of not proceeding with it. Well, Mr. Minister, I will be the first, in fact, Mr. Mini ster, I will spearhead a movement to build a bronze monument of you straddling the Assiniboine River at Holland, like both legs straddling the river, it would have to be a large monument, you know, but I would spearhead, and we will do it with private resources.

The Tory Party has not had much success raising money for political purposes anymore now that you have screwed up the fundraising act, but maybe for something like this I would find support. I would find support from my farmers throughout southern central Manitoba to build you that monument if you gave this serious consi deration. Mr. Lathlin : Mr.

Chairperson, I agree with the member and as rather a long but good presen tation, but sometimes I think it is not even the tight-I forget what word he used, tight-fisted fiscal arm of government, you know, budget restraints and so on, sometimes I feel that that is not even the cause of why certain things do not proceed.

When we look at water, the member knows we have been so preoccupied in recent years with too much water, so during that time there were not that many people who had been talking about water retention because we were too much of the mindset that we have to get rid of this water somehow and not necessa rily to Selkirk . So, as we see drier conditions again, I think we will be inevitably looking at water retention more and more. I think our attention will be diverted to water retention projects. We are, for example, looking to raise the gates on the Shellmouth Dam for greater water storage.

So, yes, we are turning our minds more in that direction. The Holland Dam the member was referring to is certainly a huge project. So, obviously, no government could commit to such an under taking without a very considerable amount of study and public discussion; and, as the member knows, building a dam is not as easy as it used to be. I can think of one group of our friends who would more than likely have something to say about building a dam, and that is DFO. But I am sure that if we worked with DFO, the work could still get done.

Seriously, there is no question we will have to all be looking at increasing water retention in the coming years. We are going to have to look at that very seriously. Mr. Eons: I see my colleague from Portage is back, who will do a better job of it. I certainly concur with the minister that an undertaking of this size is a big undertaking, and calls for the broadest of consultation and study. But you do not have to start from the beginning. That is the point that I am trying to make, and that is the reason why we brought out the librarie s-the massive amount of work that has already been done and paid for.

It is good work. A lot of this work was done by the joint contribution of the Canada-Manitoba drought proofing programs that we have had in the prairies over the past number of years. So hard dollars have gone into this work. Admittedly, the consultation effort, today's environmental hear ings and all the rest of it would have to be considered. But in terms of the merits of the basic project, much of the staff work has been done. Mr. Dyck: Just a little further to the whole area of dams and water retention and, again, specific to the area that I represent.

I know that right now we are· getting potable water, it is being pumped up from the river and, of course, heading up towards our area, and that is great. But I guess there are also years like 19 88. I recall when the flow on the Red was minimal. I know it did not stop completely, but it was minimal. With the whole idea of having a sustainable water supply, I know another project that has been looked at, and that the town of Morden has been looking at quite seriously, is another dam upstream of the Lake Minnewasta. Now, is that

2070 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 anything that the department has looked at, has considered? * (1 6:00) Just because I asked this question does not mean that I do not want us to continue to pursue the Pembina dam because, again, I believe that, as my collea gue has indicated so clearly, that our whole mindset should be of where we retain water, rather than on all the tributaries; rather than just sending it out to Lake Winnipeg or just sending it to the big lakes north so quickly, and, in the midst of all of that, creating all kinds of flooding. There are many advantages to doing this.

But I am just wondering, back to the Lake Minnewasta: Is there anything that has been looked at over the years? I know that the local town of Morden did have a study that they themselves initiated, but I am not sure whether they, in fact, brought it to the department. Mr. Lathlin: I am afraid I am going to have to apologize to the member. I am not really aware of the specific proposal that he has referenced. But I can tell him that I will try to get some information with respect to that. I believe he called it Minnewasta- Mr. Dyck: I think Minnewasta has a dam. They hold water back.

It is on the Deadhorse Creek, but it is just west of Morden. But I know that, in fact, they have some drawings they did a number of years ago, of establishing another dam just further west of the existing site. Now, I know that the water flow there varies somewhat, and, yet, though, there is a fairly large watershed west of it where the water funnels into. I am just wondering if there is anything that has been done on that. It is certainly not the magnitude of a Pembina dam, but there are some opportunities there as well. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, again, I apologize to the member.

I think probably the best way to handle this is for me to ask staff to put together an information package and then I will get back to the member as soon as I am able to. Mr. Dyck: One more question and then I will defer to my colleague. I am just wondering about the status of the Winkler aquifer as well, the water levels, and so on. I know that the community is very dependent on it, and yet I also know that they are taking, I believe, 50 percent of their water from the Red River through the Pembina Valley Water Co-op. I am just wondering as to the status of that aquifer.

Also, there is the Massey Pit Aquifer, which is in the southern part of the area there. If he could also give me an update on that, I would appreciate it. Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, I can indica te to the member that the Winkler Aquifer management plan apparently is in place. This aquifer was previously over-allocated. The plan is to move water demands off that aquif er onto the new Pembina Valley pipeline. Winkler now draws water from both sources. We are going to con tinue that process. For now the aquifer level is high. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Mini ster, I know that you have already passed the line and you can just get back to me later with the answer, if you want, and I will understand that. I had a discussion this afternoon with a constituent of mine who had some concerns around the fisheries industry. What had happened was that they were hearing of some fresh pickerel before, I guess today the pickerel season opens up actually. [interjection] But fresh pickerel, I do not believe , was available back in February and March. That was being distributed to the restaurants in Winnipeg.

Also at Neechi Foods there was fresh Manitoba pickerel being sold there when other markets did not have any fresh pickerel. Who is in control of the fish that go to these markets, or do they buy it anywhere they want? Mr. Chai rperson: Order, please. Do we have leave to ask questions in this area? [Agreed] Mr. Lathlin: As I understand it, any individual apparently can buy fish from any commercial fisherman, so long as that commercial fisherman has a licence, or from Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation.

May 30, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2071 Now when a company has to go through the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation-! cannot remember what the member was referring to, whether a store or a restaurant was wanting to purchase fish-! think, in those cases, it is the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation that issues the special permit to that hotel or restaurant. Mr. Laurendeau : Could you investigate for me, Mr. Mini ster, whether a Mr. Fong was under investigation by the Gimli natural resource officers, or whether he was reprimanded for selling fish to different restaurants in the city of Winnipeg?

Mr. Lathlin: Yes, we will look into that. Mr. Laurendeau : One of the concerns that was brought up by my constituent was that the pickerel that they were selling was selling for $6.50. They were told that Mr. Fong was supplying them fish at $2 a pound, and he was supplying it to a number of the restaurants in the city of Winnipeg. I understand that they thought that the natural resources officers in Gimli were aware of this, and they were surprised that he was continuing on with this practice. * (16: 10 ) So if you could look into it, and let me know, I would appreciate it.

It would make my constituent much happier, seeing as they are in the business. They do not mind competing against somebody who is buying at the right prices from the right sources, but Mr. Fong seems to have some contacts with people who are using nets illegally, and we would appreciate it if these people were shut down. Mr. Lathlin: We will definitely look into that and get back to the member as soon as we are able to. Mr. Laurendeau : Thank you very much. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): I appreciate my colleague for St. Norbert concluding his remarks, and affording me the time.

In regards to 12 .8, which, I believe, is the

section we are on, this involves infrastructure and consid eration for waterways, dams and flood control structures. I want to put a question to the minister. First off, are you, Mr. Minister, familiar with the 19 87 report that was tabled for the perusal of Minister Plohman, who was a Natural Resources Minister at that time, as well as Minister Kostyra, who was the Minister of Finance at the time? On that basis, I will preface my remarks either more in depth, or in brief, depending upon his knowledge of this report. Mr. Lathlin: No, I have not seen the report. Mr.

Faurschou: In that case, I will attempt to perhaps make a bit of a superficial introduction to the minister to the report. As the honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) has alluded to, I personally checked this out of the reading library archives the day before yesterday, and it involves five volumes. As you can appreciate, there is an extensive amount of information. I will, just for the record, state that there is a main report and it is entitled Assiniboine South Hespler Area Study. It then has appendices A, B, C and D.

Appendix A deals with the actual construction of dams in southern Manitoba; appendix B is the actual engineering and design work of these structures; appendix C is the economic considerations that are derived from the construction and operation of these structures; appendix D, Mr. Chair, is the social consider ations which, effectively, take in a wide range of considerations of persons in and about the areas where the dams are suggested for that area.

Also too, appendix E is the environmental considerations, and, as you can appreciate, appendix E is the thickest of the documents, because it involves everything that anyone can imagine as far as the environment goes, as stated in 19 87. Now, as I say, this particular report was done in conjunction with the federal government and was presented to Minister Plohman and Minister Kostyra on March 11 of 19 88. Sorry, I did previously say 19 87.

The report, when tabled, effectively-and I might just say the management group recommends that a long -term water management conservation strategy be developed for Agro Manitoba. This strategy, to be developed by the Manitoba Department of Natural Resources with the assistance from Agriculture Canada, Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Administration, and other federal and provincial agencies as required, would include the implementation of water conservation measures

2072 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2002 for agriculture and rural development, along with water development to meet site-specific needs to support economic growth and security and enhance the quality of life throughout the region. That pretty much summarizes where the report was targeted. Now the reason I am bringing forward this particular report, because it was visionary at the time, expecting that there was going to be a demand for water not only for personal use but industrial use, recreational use, and that the time was, then, to provide for a longer-term vision.

In fact, there is a phased-in component to this over 30 years that would provide for an expansion of water distribution network coming from structures that are designed to retain a spring or a flood runoff. The preface for this is that, throughout the two weeks, the one week in December of 200 1 and then one week earlier on this year, 2002, the Clean Environment Commission held hearings in Portage Ia Prairie. Time in and time out, there was concern raised about the flow of the Assiniboine River and the demands upon that flow from the J. R. Simplot and related industries that would be put on the Assiniboine River.

Now this study was not specifically named, but I sourced this study because I wanted to learn more about the Assiniboine River and what had previously been done, because there is no point in our reinventing the wheel every time we have a problem. I might just mention to the minister that the engineering that is in this report is one that has taken a long time to bring together. In fact, we go back to the late 19 50s when the geology of the region was done, like core samples that were done to give profiles and provide for the basis of engineering of dams on the Assi niboine River.

So the report does mention a report on Preli minary Foundation Investigations, Red River Pla ins Project, Holland Site No. 3, dated 19 59. It also references first progress report on soil mechanics investigation for Assiniboine River project, Holla nd Dam, 19 62. So the information in these documents is prefaced by a lot of work by very qualified individuals. So we are not talking about a project that is out of the blue.

This is a project that has been in discussion, and I speak, very specifically, of Holland Dam site No. 3 on the Ass iniboine River. * (1 6:20 ) So, for more than 40 years, this has been a discussion item. Why I bring it forward for your consideration at this point in time is that the J. R. Simplot development, which Premier Doer made the announcement of a year and a half ago no

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-40b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 40b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d4511252ee6800be29ea1e16a639072306c1a8c8

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