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December 1, 2011

40th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2011-Dec-01 (PDF)

L008 - Thu 1 Dec 2011 / Jeu 1er déc 2011

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 1 December 2011 Jeudi 1 er décembre 2011

ORDERS OF THE DAY

HEALTHY HOMES RENOVATION

TAX CREDIT ACT, 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 SUR LE CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

POUR L’AMÉNAGEMENT DU LOGEMENT

AXÉ SUR LE BIEN-ÊTRE

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING

MUNICIPAL PLANNING

TAXATION

TAXATION

MUNICIPAL PLANNING

ABORIGINAL HOUSING

ANTI-BULLYING INITIATIVES

WORKERS’ COMPENSATION

HEALTH PROMOTION

RENEWABLE ENERGY

HYDRO TRANSMISSION

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

PAN AM GAMES

MUNICIPAL PLANNING

ABORIGINAL RIGHTS

AIDS TREATMENT

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

TIGER JEET SINGH FOUNDATION

COMMUNITY CENTRES

JOURNÉE MONDIALE DU SIDA /

WORLD AIDS DAY

WIND TURBINES

BRUCE CROZIER /

PAT HAYES

BAXTER CORP.

DURHAM REGION

CHURCHILL TROJANS

ABILITY ONLINE

PETITIONS

WIND TURBINES

MUNICIPAL PLANNING

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

WIND TURBINES

WIND TURBINES

CREMATORIA

WIND TURBINES

WIND TURBINES

WIND TURBINES

WIND TURBINES

WIND TURBINES

PRIVATE MEMBERS’

PUBLIC BUSINESS

ONTARIO ONE CALL ACT, 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 SUR ONTARIO ONE CALL

WIRELESS PHONE, SMART PHONE

AND DATA SERVICE

TRANSPARENCY ACT, 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 SUR LA TRANSPARENCE

DES SERVICES DE TÉLÉPHONE MOBILE,

DE TÉLÉPHONE INTELLIGENT

ET DE TRANSMISSION DE DONNÉES

LOCAL MUNICIPALITY

DEMOCRACY ACT, 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 SUR LA DÉMOCRATIE

AU SEIN DES MUNICIPALITÉS LOCALES

ONTARIO ONE CALL ACT, 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 SUR ONTARIO ONE CALL

WIRELESS PHONE, SMART PHONE

AND DATA SERVICE

TRANSPARENCY ACT, 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 SUR LA TRANSPARENCE

DES SERVICES DE TÉLÉPHONE MOBILE,

DE TÉLÉPHONE INTELLIGENT

ET DE TRANSMISSION DE DONNÉES

LOCAL MUNICIPALITY

DEMOCRACY ACT, 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 SUR LA DÉMOCRATIE

AU SEIN DES MUNICIPALITÉS LOCALES

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Shall we pray?

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

HEALTHY HOMES RENOVATION

TAX CREDIT ACT, 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 SUR LE CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

POUR L’AMÉNAGEMENT DU LOGEMENT

AXÉ SUR LE BIEN-ÊTRE

Resuming the debate adjourned on November 30, 2011, on the motion for second reading of Bill 2,

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 to implement a healthy homes renovation tax credit / Projet de loi 2, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2007 sur les impôts en vue de mettre en oeuvre le crédit d’impôt pour l’aménagement du logement axé sur le bien-être.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate? The member from Beaches–East York.

Mr. Michael Prue: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. If I might preface my remarks, as you were reading out the Buddhist prayer this morning, I wonder of the need for a Legislature at all; if things are just going to unfold as they should and if we just need to watch the waves come in and go out, whether we need one at all. But I’m going to take this opportunity to talk about it, notwithstanding the wise words that were spoken by you.

If I might also preface my remarks, this last couple of weeks since we’ve come back, I have heard so many of the new members give their inaugural speeches. I have heard so many of them talk about their ridings, their friends, their families and how they got involved in politics, and I lament the fact, as the Clerk will rightly point out, that I am probably the only person in the modern history of this place who never gave an inaugural speech.

Interjection: How did you get away with that?

Mr. Michael Prue: I don’t know. And I don’t know whether, after 10 years here, it’s timely for me to do so, but I’m going to think that it’s not and therefore just go ahead with my debate on this bill.

This bill, of course, was a major plank of the government—probably its only plank, along with reducing inflated and really unfortunate fees that students pay for post-secondary education. It was a government that ran on two planks, this being one of them. So I suppose it’s inevitable that we will be talking about this in the very first couple of weeks of the session and that the Liberals will want to show that they are somehow making good on what they had to say during the election on an economic issue. But I have to tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that this is pretty small potatoes in terms of a whole economic agenda and how to get the province moving. It’s pretty small potatoes. It amounts to, I think, some significant dollars—$130 million—but the effect it will have on the majority of Ontarians is absolutely tiny.

They want to show, this government, that they are taking action on their plan and that they are willing to take and spend $130 million of taxpayers’ money in an effort to show that they’re trying to do something. They’re trying to do something for that very, very tiny portion of the population who are over 65 years of age, who have $10,000 in available cash, who are in need of repair in the home and who are thinking long-term about what they need to do in order to stay in that home. I would think that this is a pretty, pretty small number of people: maybe 1%, maybe less.

We know, from statistics of home builders and home renovators in many places, including, most recently, what I saw from Sudbury, that of all the home renovations that are done by people, only 1.7% of home renovations are done by those over the age of 65. The big renovations are done primarily by young people who are renovating or expanding their home because they’re expecting children. So, here we are: At the most, we’re looking at 1.7% of the people who are doing home renovations, and those that have the $10,000.

This government says that this bill is essential and absolutely necessary because it’s going to create 10,500 jobs and keep seniors in their homes. That’s what this is all about. I’m all in favour. I think everybody in this entire room, this entire Legislature—whether you’re on the government side, the official opposition or the third party, we all believe that seniors should stay in their own homes as long as is practicable, and we all want to help people to do that. But we also know that most seniors are very content and comfortable in their own homes, and very few of them are willing or able to expend the amounts of money that this bill envisages.

I am also extremely skeptical about any claim that this is going to create 10,500 jobs. I listened through the entire last Legislature as government member after government member stood in this place and talked about the jobs that were being created: the 10,000 here or the 50,000 here or the 60,000 here, or the 300,000. It just keeps coming and coming and coming, and the unemployment rate is at 10%. If you live in a place like London or Windsor, you know full well that 10% of the people are unemployed, in spite of all the claims that are being made over there.

Every time they dole out money to a company or a factory, they say, “We’re creating 100 jobs, 200 jobs,” and then we see that factory close without creating a single thing. So when you talk about 10,500 jobs, I think we all need to take that with a grain of salt.

Will it create some work? Of course it will. Any expenditure of money by anybody, whether it’s government or private or individuals—any expenditure creates jobs. Even if you go into the dollar store and buy something made in China, you are creating a job here for the salesperson who sells it and for the stockperson who puts it on the shelf. Any expenditure of money does that, but this is, quite frankly, not terribly believable.

Let’s take a close look, Mr. Speaker, at this bill. Most seniors, in my view and in the view of most economists, cannot afford the $10,000 to begin with in order to save $1,500. Most seniors, if you look at the level of poverty and other things, have a difficult time, because with pensions failing, with pensions in many cases not indexed or not existing at all, it becomes very, very difficult, as prices increase, for them to maintain the standard of living that they expected.

For those who retired 10 or 15 years ago, they have seen a total erosion of their spending ability, a total erosion as things like home heating and electricity and transit and gasoline prices and food and everything keeps rising at a rate faster than their ability to pay it.

So, I am highly skeptical, as I said at the beginning, that there are that many seniors out there who have $10,000 that they are willing to expend in order to put in a new bathroom or in order to put in a ramp or an elevating or lift device to take them up the stairs. Are there some? Of course there are some; there are some seniors who can take advantage of this. But can the majority do it? I would think not, and I would think that even if they want to have it done, they will be reluctant to spend that much money. I know them; I talk to them. I talk to seniors all the time. They don’t want to spend the money.

They are happy to live in their home, even though it may be in need of repair, because they are mindful of the necessity of keeping that little nest egg as long as they can. Also, many of them want to leave it to their children. Quite frankly, they’d rather leave it to their children than put in a new bathroom.

So, how many can afford the $10,000? That’s the first question we have to ask ourselves. If you look deep in your hearts, government members, you will know there are not many who are going to have this money or want to spend it.

I would think, even though this may cost $130 million if fully farmed out, you are going to find out that the number of people applying for this, given the criteria you have, will be far fewer than that, and the actual expenditure from this government will be far less than that. Now, that may be a good thing, because I don’t think this bill will have the consequences you think it will.

The second thing: Every single cost borne by the senior who spends up to $10,000 is subject to tax, and we know that the majority of the tax on a home renovation will go to the people who come to build it. Yes, there are costs for supplies like new sinks and taps; yes, there are costs for supplies like elevating devices that will take them up the stairs. But the majority of the costs that will be borne are those of the workers who will come to put them in, the tradespeople who will come to put them in. This is all subject to HST.

Here is a government that says, “We’re going to give you $1,500,” but that same government is going to make as much as $800 back in HST from these same seniors. Maybe that’s not a bad thing if you’re an economist and you’re looking at the cost to the taxpayer. You dangle the carrot out there that you’re giving $1,500, but you know full well that you’re going to get up to $800 of that back in taxes.

So, how much is the senior really saving? I would think they will be a little bit skeptical of this as well.

The third thing you need to know is that a senior who does have the funds may have them locked. Very few of them will have $10,000 simply sitting in a bank account or in a bank account that is protected from interest. Very few of them will have that. If they have to take the money out, more than likely it will be locked into things like RRSPs. A senior who wants to take advantage of this and removes the money from an RRSP, which will be a lot of them, is subject to have that taxed at a higher rate. They will have to pay income tax on that money to take it out in the first place.

So if they think, “Well, I need a new bathroom; the government is going to give me back $1,500 if I spend $10,000,” they’re going to have to take probably closer to $15,000 out of the RRSP in order to have the $10,000 in the first place to take advantage of the program. They are going to have to pay tax of up to $5,000 from their RRSP to do it.

I think you’re going to find that a whole bunch of them are not willing to do that. You’re going to find a whole bunch of them are going to say, “This is not a program that works for me. This doesn’t do anything to alleviate my problem. It actually may even make it worse.” I think that the take-up from those people who have to take the money out of a secure deposit, an RRSP, will limit the effectiveness of this program.

Next, anybody who does a major retrofit of their home—I’m talking about electricity, about plumbing, about things that are just not cosmetic; not just putting a handle on the bathtub, but things that are of major import and have to be done—requires a building permit. Building permits are good things. Building permits ensure that the contractor who has been hired makes the job professional, well done and safe. It makes sure that the electricity, if it’s being put into the walls, is safe and that it does not cause a fire.

It makes sure that the plumbing that is put into the walls does not leak and cause damage to a house, damage that can be more expensive than what the original repair was. Municipalities across this province have the authority to go in and issue permits and make sure the work is done, and seniors, of course, are going to have to pay for those permits.

But having paid for those permits—all well and good—those permits are subject to MPAC; they are subject to the Municipal Property Assessment Corp. And when you do a major retrofit of your house, particularly if you put a basement in your house, an in-law apartment; if you put in new washrooms, a new kitchen; if you do those kinds of things, you increase the value of your house—of course you do—and then it’s subject to increasing the tax on the house. We all know, those of us who are property owners, that every time you do a major renovation, MPAC will come around.

They will reassess your house, your property taxes will rise, and then you have to question yourself: Was this program that I intended to get $1,500 back from actually working for me? Did it actually have the desired effect?

I would think, not so much seniors, but those who are trying to keep Mom and Dad at their home are going to wonder whether this program works for them, because in the end, with the combination of the HST, with the combination of fees for permits, with the combination of property tax increases, people will say that this is not the type of expenditure that works best for them.

They will do what countless other people do, so sadly, in this province: They will go to the underground economy, because you can get the work done more cheaply, you can do it without permit, you can do it without MPAC knowing about it in the first place and you can build it. They will forgo and not even use this grandiose scheme—which maybe, as a taxpayer, is a good thing. Maybe people out there will say, “I don’t like this program, but it’s not going to cost me very much.”

I think government needs to look at this. This is a much-ballyhooed program. It was only one of two principal ideas you floated in the last election. But, quite frankly, I think it’s not going to be taken up at all.

We then wonder: what, why, how? What made the government decide to do this? Did they look to some other jurisdiction and say, “Another jurisdiction has had success with this. This is how we came up with this plan. This has been working brilliantly in Quebec or Manitoba or BC or someplace in the United States”? I don’t think so. Because as we look around to those other provinces, we see that they have far superior programs to this, ones that are actually taken up by the poor, by the old, by the disabled; programs that actually help them to retrofit their homes without all of the worries and all of the bother and all of the concerns that I’ve outlined.

In Quebec, they made a conscious decision many years ago to target and to help their poorer seniors, especially those seniors who were disabled or potentially may be disabled as conditions in old age worsen. They made a decision to work in conjunction with their regional municipalities and that those regional municipalities would assist in helping seniors to stay in their homes.

They have a program which sounds, at the outset, very much like what this government has put forward. They will fund access ramps, remodelling of bathrooms, the widening of doors, elevation devices or anything else that will make mobility inside the home for seniors, disabled seniors, the disabled, those in need—they will make them work. But the difference between Quebec and Ontario is that Quebec is willing to put its money where its mouth is and not play some kind of shell game which, in the end, will absolutely negate the benefit that is expected to go to seniors.

In Quebec, for instance, there are grants for seniors. Any senior who is disabled can get up to $16,000 in a grant to remodel their home—not spend $10,000 of your own and get $1,500 back, minus all the taxes and permit fees and everything else you have to pay, but $16,000 in grant money—because Quebec understands that most of the seniors who will be applying for this do not have the economic wherewithal and that the $16,000 that they’re expending is absolutely essential to keep people in their homes.

It’s clearly far better to spend that money up front than to have seniors go into retirement homes or into old age homes or to have other costly government programs. So they spend up to $16,000 if you are a senior who is disabled.

Also, an ordinary senior can get up to a $3,500 grant right off the top. Now, is that getting $10,000 worth of repair done to your home? No. It’s getting $3,500. But the $3,500 is cash that they get without expending their own hard-earned money that many of them don’t have. So if you need something relatively minor, like a walk-in bathtub or grip bars or a kitchen put on a lower floor that is going to assist you to stay in your home, that’s what the Quebec government pays up to $3,500 for.

That’s for any senior—$16,000 if you’re a disabled or potentially disabled senior—and that keeps people in their homes, and it’s well taken up. They’ve been doing this since 1991, for 20 years. The program works.

So I have to ask myself: Why does the government of Ontario go out and do something which is diametrically opposed to the most successful seniors’ program to keep them in their own homes in the country, which is just a couple of hundred kilometres to the east of here, of this building? I mean, it works. For those who come from Ottawa, it’s across the river. From the Cornwall area, you can see Quebec. You can see what they do and how they do it. At least once or twice a year, we meet with our counterparts in Quebec. Sometimes they come here; sometimes we go there.

We meet with them and we talk about their programs, our programs, how we can mesh them, how we can make them work. We’re supposed to learn from them, and in fact we’ve learned much through that interparliamentary committee that meets through the aegis of the Speaker’s office.

But I don’t think the government learned anything on this one, because instead of doing what Quebec does, they’ve gone out and done something different. Not only does Quebec give $16,000 to disabled seniors, not only do they give $3,500 in grants to seniors who are not disabled, but they also have other grant programs that the disabled and some seniors are eligible for. The municipalities with whom they work also have grant monies available that can, in special circumstances, be given as well.

The municipalities have the authority to go in and to look at the homes and make assessments and make recommendations. Does every senior get the money? No. Every senior who applies gets the $3,500, provided it’s done by a registered contractor. But if there are special needs, the municipality has people who go in and look at it. They say, “We think that there’s something more that needs to be done to help this individual.”

Municipalities can also give grants of up to $7,000 to keep people in their own homes and, in absolutely exceptional circumstances, where there is specialized equipment that is required as well, have the authority to give a further $10,000 grant. So it is quite conceivable that a disabled senior in Quebec trying to stay in their own home can get the full government-of-Quebec grant, the grant from the municipality in which they live, and a specialized grant to help them stay in their own home amounting to $23,000. And this government here is talking about maybe $1,500, subject to tax, and that’s what is being given away.

Now, are these tough times? Sure, they’re tough times. Does the government have a lot of money? No, the government doesn’t have a lot of money.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: They’re giving it away to corporations.

Mr. Michael Prue: Well, they’re giving it away to corporations, but I’m not sure they’re giving it away to the seniors and those who need it the most. This is the whole point of this. Is this a bad bill? No, it’s not a bad bill. But is it doing what the government says it’s going to do? No, it is not.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: She missed your speech. I can’t believe it.

Mr. Michael Prue: I think the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing is perhaps missing some of what I have to say—

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’ve been here the whole time.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: He’s going to repeat it; hold on.

Mr. Michael Prue: Maybe I should start again; perhaps in French.

But this is what is happening in terms of this bill, and the government ought not to stand up and say how proud they are of this bill because it is not a particularly good one.

Is it going to cause any grief? I don’t think so. Is it going to cost a lot of money? I don’t think it’s going to cost what you say it’s going to cost. Is it going to help a lot of people? Absolutely not. It’s not; you need to know this. A year from now, two years from now, when the auditor looks at this and says, “How is this program working?” they’re going to say, “This $130 million that we’re supposed to spend: There’s hardly any take-up on it,” and somebody’s going to come along and recommend that it be done away with because it’s simply not working.

In the meantime, we have a whole lot of people out there who watch these programs and who look at the government’s spin and think that something is actually being done to help them, and in reality nothing is really being done to help them, save and except that approximately 1% or 1.5% of seniors—those over the age of 65 that actually have this kind of remedial work done in their homes.

So here we have it: We get a $10,000 bill and we get a $1,500 grant, if you’re lucky, and this is limited to people who are over the age of 65. Now, I wonder; there’s a whole bunch of boomers out there, including some in this room. There’s a whole bunch of people out there who are planning for their retirement and, if they’re careful, are planning for their older age. They know that over time, their health may deteriorate. Some of them may already be in circumstances where their health is deteriorating, with bad backs, with slipped discs, with any number of things that will require.

But is there anything in this bill that helps them? Is there anything in this bill that helps somebody who is 55 or 60 years of age, who is trying to plan ahead while they still have some employment, while they still have equity, while they still have some money that they want to expend? No; it’s not there. So even those people who are less than 65, who are thinking about retirement and are thinking about staying in their homes and are thinking long-term about what needs to be done—this program is useless to them.

People need to know: This is totally useless to the majority of Ontarians. It will not help them even if they’re thinking ahead, even if they’re trying to do the right thing, even if they’re trying to, in future years, not be a burden on the government. Nothing at all. Nothing at all. I think we need to take a close look at this.

In Quebec, if you are less than 65 years of age but you have some type of infirmity that is likely to grow worse over time, you are eligible for some of the grants. I think this province needs to do the same thing, because if we are serious about keeping people in their homes, we cannot do what is contained totally within the body of this bill. We have to think beyond that box. That’s something that is not happening here.

You know, in the final analysis, hardly anyone is being covered. In the final analysis, they might get a $1,500 grant. In the final analysis, this is limited to a very small number of people of those who are over 65 years of age. In the final analysis, there is nothing that is going to limit the property taxes of those people who expend money on major renovations, including bathrooms, kitchens, plumbing and electricity. As soon as they spend that money, their home taxes are going to go up, and it’s going to make them reluctant to do it. In the final analysis, it’s going to make it very, very difficult.

I’ve sat here through the economic statement of the Minister of Finance. I’ve sat here and I’ve listened to him in press scrums, and I’ve listened to the Premier, and they’re talking about what the budget is likely to contain next March. There are those who would commend this government for saying that somehow health care and education are sacrosanct, for saying that they will not be touched, for saying that health care can go and rise as much as 3% in terms of expenditure and that education can rise as much as 1% in terms of expenditure.

But as the finance minister and the Premier have said repeatedly, every other government department is going to see major cuts. They’re going to see major cuts that are going to have a devastating impact, I would put it to you, in many fields: impacts on the environment, impacts on municipalities, impacts on transportation, impacts on how we get around and transit for municipalities. They’re going to be cut by some 33%; that’s what he said. When those are cut, where do you think people are going to get those services, especially seniors? How are they going to do it?

We see in the city of Toronto all the machinations down there at city hall, all the infighting, all the right-wingers saying, “Well, we’re going to raise taxes by 2.5% to cover this off. We’re going to increase transit fees by 10 cents or a quarter a ride in order to cover this off. We’re going to lay off 2,600 people—firefighters, police officers, transit workers and librarians—in order to cover this off,” because they know full well that there’s going to be no money from this government. They know full well, and they’re taking the finance minister to heart, that in all these places other than education and hospitals, there are going to be reductions.

So you have to expect that those same seniors that this bill is intended to help are also going to face those impacts. They’re going to see their property taxes rise. They’re going to see their transit fares rise. They’re going to see life being a little bit more than miserable. They’re going to see user fees on a whole bunch of other things.

I think this government needs to look at its priorities. Is this the best priority? I’m not sure. That’s the decision you’ve made, and I think the Legislature has to debate it and has to spend some time with it. But I’m not sure that this is the best priority on how to spend potentially $130 million. Will I vote against it? I don’t know. I would do almost anything to help seniors, but I want you to look into your heart of hearts: Is this money (

a) going to be spent, and (b), if it is, is it going to have the same effect on helping the senior population that you think it is and that money spent somewhere else would have?

I know that the government has said they will not support the motion put forward by the NDP, and voted on in this Legislature with the support of the official opposition, to take the HST off home heating fuel. I will tell you, if the HST went off home heating fuel, every single senior in this province would benefit. Every single person in this province would benefit who heats their home or has their apartment heated by their landlord, because they pay it. Every single person would be the beneficiary.

When you have this bill, how many people will be beneficiaries? I know it costs only about one third as much. I know it’s $130 million versus $350 million. I know that. I read the numbers—with all the catcalls over there. But how many people are going to benefit from this? Ask yourself. Look at it. Who is going to benefit? Those 1% of seniors who actually do renovations? Maybe. And all the rest? No.

If we are truly trying to help the people of this province, you have to think more broadly. You have to be more inclusive. You have to look at what is being done. Certainly, the taxpayers expect that any time this amount of money is spent, there is a desired effect. I don’t think it’s here.

You know, the government says that this program is intended to help more than homeowners. I’m not sure that that’s the case. I looked at it, and I searched my heart of hearts because I know they say that if you are a tenant you can apply to have your landlord repair your building, and the landlord might be able to get some kind of a grant out of this.

I don’t know how many tenants out there who are watching this have ever had much success in trying to get their landlord to redo their bathroom because they’re old or have grab bars put in it to help them get out of the bathroom or put in a new kitchen because the kitchen is that bad or do anything else that will provide mobility, like taking out the door frame around their apartment so that they can get a wheelchair into it or changing any other thing inside a tenanted building.

Landlords aren’t anxious to do that. They’re not anxious to spend this kind of money. They’re not going to spend $10,000 to get $1,500 back. They’re not going to do it. And if they do do it, they’re going to raise the rent of the tenant. We all know that that’s exactly what happens.

So, how many tenants—and there are tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of seniors who are tenants because some of them aren’t able to maintain a home with the grass cutting and the snow shovelling and all the inherent things of homeownership, and so they choose, quite rightly, to live in apartments, to rent at that stage their life. It makes economic sense, and it makes social sense, and it makes sense in terms of their abilities to carry out the work.

So how many tenants are going to benefit from this? Any? Can anybody over there tell me that they think landlords are going to pick this up and start making all the renovations to their apartments?

There is a guy shaking his head—a brand newbie over there—who thinks that this is going to happen. He thinks that landlords are somehow going to find this a magic elixir. “I’m going to get $1,500 back; I’m going to do $10,000 of renovation for Mrs. Brown who is increasingly in poor health. I’m going to redo her whole bathroom so that she can stay with me another year or two in this apartment before she goes to an old age home, and I’m not going to raise her rent after I do it.” Wow; there is a dreamer over there and a true believer if I have ever seen one, shaking his head in the affirmative. I don’t know.

I don’t know. But if you think that’s going to happen, I’m waiting for the auditor in a year or two to say, “How many tenants have actually been helped with this program?” because the answer will be zero—zero.

So, here’s a government that’s saying that tenants are eligible, but are they? Not at all. Are the poor eligible? Those who live in substandard housing, who have slum landlords and all those who barely make ends meet who would never have $10,000 to expend in the first place: Are they eligible? Absolutely not. They don’t have the money, so they can’t get the rebate. If you don’t have the cash up front, there’s nothing for them there.

Are those who have to take money out of the RRSPs eligible? I guess they are, but at some considerable cost to themselves—much more than the rebate will actually be or that they would ever afford. So are they going to take their money out? Probably not. So they’re not eligible either.

Are the property tax increases going to be worth it for the majority of people who are left? Probably not. So it’s no surprise that when contractors and home builders and other people show us the list of who makes repairs to their homes, seniors are at the bottom. Those 65 years of age and older are in the 1% or 2% range of all the work that they have. Will that increase if you give them $1,500 as a rebate? Maybe. It might go from 1% to 2%, or from 2% to 3%, but it’s not going to make any kind of major difference.

I think that the position taken by the opposition parties is much more practical. You know, we talked about removing the HST from heating costs. We grant that it’s more expensive. We know it’s more expensive than what is being proposed here. But it is infinitely universal. Every single person, regardless of their station in life, their age, their infirmity, gets relief. Every single person gets an opportunity to pay less for one of life’s necessities.

I will tell you: Look across the country and at those provinces that have embraced the HST, and you will see that all of them have no HST on home heating, except us. Why is it that in Ontario this is a necessity that Liberals say cannot be changed, where they don’t pay HST in Quebec, they don’t pay it in Nova Scotia, they don’t pay it in BC—and pretty soon they won’t have an HST at all? They don’t pay it in any other place. They don’t pay HST on home heating.

So I have to ask: Who is being helped? Are you really helping those in need? When I see seniors, when I walk door to door—and I know all of you did in the months of August and September and until October 6. Was that not an issue? Was that not an issue, particularly for those who are struggling, particularly for those who are trying to hang on to their homes? They brought out heating bills to show me. They brought out electricity bills to show me. They asked, “How can the government help me? I can’t afford this anymore.

Every time the costs go up, every time the HST is added to it, it spikes and costs me an extra $50 or $100 a month. It’s money I don’t have.” If you can help them, they won’t be coming to you looking for home renovations. They will be happy to stay in their own home in the condition that it is.

When those days come when a person can no longer live in their own home—they come. I’m sad for that day. I watched when my mother-in-law could no longer stay in her own home. I watched when my mother could no longer stay in her own home. We did all kinds of things to try to help them and keep that going as long as possible. In my mother-in-law’s case, we went to Community Care East York, a wonderful agency.

That agency came in every single week, did home cleaning, looked after her, helped her with the groceries at the little corner store, brought some stuff, made sure things were tidy, went through the fridge to make sure that the old food that wasn’t any good anymore was thrown out, and a hundred things that people have to do. Community Care East York did a wonderful job for her. They will be celebrating, by the way, Mr. Speaker, their 40th anniversary next week, on Thursday.

Applause.

Mr. Michael Prue: Except, before you clap—the same newbie member is clapping about this. It’s also their last anniversary, because although they were founded in 1971, they no longer have sufficient revenues from government and other sources. They’re being forced to be subsumed by a larger organization. The larger organization is a good one; it’s called WoodGreen, and it’s in the east end of the city of Toronto. But Community Care East York, which has served the people of East York and north of the Danforth for 40 years, will be no more on January 1.

Some of the workers—or most of the workers, I’m assured—will find work with WoodGreen, but they are being forced to amalgamate and join together to cut costs and administration, and the whole neighbourhood feel will be gone from this. But I’m thankful that there are still people like Community Care East York and WoodGreen that go out and help.

I think we need to make sure that the money is there, but I’m not sure, when the finance minister stands up and says that there’s going to be a 33% reduction in some ministries, that they’re not going to be affected as well. Before we start spending money in the way the government is proposing here, I want somebody to assure me from over there that we won’t be cutting the other services that so many seniors rely upon every single day—things like Community Care East York.

My mother-in-law stayed in her home for an extra seven years after my father-in-law died, with the help of Meals on Wheels. Because they came every day to deliver her a hot meal, I didn’t have to worry about her. I didn’t have to come every single day and make sure she had something nutritious to eat, because the people from Meals on Wheels showed up every single day with a hot meal for her. They knocked on the door, made sure she took the meal, asked her how she was doing, and otherwise were sort of the eyes and ears of the community so that she continued to be safe.

I remember one day, Mr. Speaker, when I took her out for lunch. We went to one of her favourite restaurants for lunch at the same time that the Meals on Wheels came to deliver the meal. When I got home, there was a call for me on my answering machine, saying that they were worried about my mother-in-law because she hadn’t come to the door; that they had left the meal there but she hadn’t come to the door. Was I aware? Was there anything wrong? Should I go down and check it out?

When I assured them that the reason she didn’t come to the door was because I took her out for lunch, they were assuaged. But I was happy that they did that kind of thing and continue to do that kind of thing.

But I’m also worried that seniors’ services like this one may be on the chopping block. There may be $130 million for those who wish to renovate their homes, but I am also mindful that everything other than health care and education is now on the block. Community services are on the block. They will potentially have reductions. That’s what the finance minister and the Premier have said, and the finance minister has said it can be up to 33%.

So I ask the government, in putting forward this bill, and when it goes to committee, as it invariably must—I’m asking the government to make sure that us spending $130 million is not going to be to the detriment of all the other seniors’ programs that are out there, because there are hundreds of thousands of people who rely on those. I would think that if these seniors out there see that their programs are being cut in other areas in order that a very select few—1% or 2%—who want renovations to their homes are given prominence while they are being cut, this government will hear a lot of ire.

I will tell you, there is nothing so woeful, nothing so strong, nothing so concerted in an effort as seniors who are roused, because they vote. They vote, and they are not afraid to tell you what they think of your program and of you as a politician, and whether you’re helping them or not.

So, Mr. Speaker, I see I still have about 15 minutes left. Maybe I should do my maiden speech now, but I think, after 11 years, I won’t do that. I won’t talk about my family and the wonder of Beaches–East York, or even the wonders of Don Valley West and that wonderful community of Thorncliffe, which is part of it—

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: That would be okay.

Mr. Michael Prue: Oh, now the minister wants to hear that. No, no, I think I’m going to wind it up. I think I’ve said what needs to be said.

When this goes to committee—

Mr. Rob Leone: What committee?

Mr. Michael Prue: Well, that’s a good question. Good questions have been asked. What committee? Because we don’t have any committees operating yet. We don’t have any committees operating here or anybody appointed to any of the committees, to date. We have been here now for two weeks. We are only going to be here for another four days. I’ve been told that, as the finance critic, I’m likely to be on the finance committee when it gets structured—I think that’s a pretty safe assumption—but it has not been structured.

We are going to be sent out, as we are every single year in the month of January and February. We’re going to be sent out across this province to hear from people about what they hope to see in the budget, how they hope that the money is going to be expended; whether this is a good way to expend it or whether there are other programs that should maybe get the money instead.

How can we do that? How can we plan for that? We don’t even know who’s on the committee. We don’t even know who the chair is. We don’t even know when they’re going to be given authority, when there’s going to be a subcommittee meeting and who’s going to be on it.

I’ve heard some nasty rumours around here that the government is playing hardball and that they may only want one or two committees to actually operate. There are nine committees that are set out by statute for this place, and they all need to be working. We all need to be working to do that which is right for the people of Ontario, particularly for our seniors.

If this bill passes second reading, and it very well may, then it’s going to have to be sent to a committee, and that’s going to have to be done next week. I would hazard, since it is a finance bill, since it is a change to the taxation policy, that in all likelihood it’s going to have to go to the finance committee. That’s going to be added to all the things we already know: not only the budget consultation but this bill and, we’ve been told by the finance minister, the consideration of Don Drummond’s report on where we go.

That’s just what the finance committee is going to have to do in January, if it is ever structured. I don’t know about other committees, but that’s what’s going to have to happen. So I ask the government members: You have one more caucus meeting next week. Talk about this issue. Talk about whether this is the kind of bill that needs to go forward. Maybe you should just hold back on it for a while and see what other seniors’ programs are potentially at risk if $130 million is spent in this way.

I also ask that we structure and get on with the work of government. We have a minority Parliament. The government does not have a majority and cannot expect to have a majority on the committees. It cannot happen; it will not happen. So let’s get on with it. Let’s work together.

I am willing to give consideration to this if the government can show me that what I have said today is somehow not correct, that there is going to be a much greater uptake, that there is a clamour out there for this kind of program and that nothing else will be hurt in its wake. I’m willing to give due consideration.

But we need to do that after hearing the people of this province. We need to have public deputations, as we always do in committee. We need the committee to look at the bare bones and make amendments. We need the amendments to come back and be debated before this House. This can only happen, Mr. Speaker, if we have properly functioning committees and a government that recognizes that we are in a minority situation and that the opposition needs to be heard.

For the new members: You may not have seen it yet, but there are two things up there. There’s an owl over there and there’s an eagle over there. We look, on this side, at the eagle. The eagle is for the opposition to always remain vigilant so that we know what the government is doing, we keep the government to account and we ask the appropriate questions.

The owl is over there for the government members to always remember that you need to be wise. So, be wise. Think about this. Do the right thing. Set up the committee. Discuss in detail whether this bill is going to have the desired effect. If you think it is, then vote for it. If you think it needs to be changed, change it. If you think it’s going to be deleterious to other government programs, make sure they are not hurt, because they are more sorely needed than this and they are much more important to the majority of seniors in this province.

I think that’s enough time. I thank you very much for everyone’s attention and thank you, Mr. Speaker, for yours.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate? Questions and comments? The member for Scarborough Southwest.

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti: I want to start off by congratulating you on your new position as Deputy Speaker—First Deputy Speaker, I think. It’s nice to see a fellow Scarborite in that position.

Interjections.

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti: Scarborite? I’ll provide Hansard with the spelling for “Scarborite” later on.

I only have two minutes to speak or critique the member from Beaches–East York. I have a question: Why is your riding called Beaches–East York when it should be The Beach-East York? I think it’s officially now known as The Beach. So if he could explain that to me in his comments, I would really appreciate it. But anyway—

Interjections.

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti: I’m very close to The Beach, and my wife and I go there quite often. Sorry; I’m getting off topic.

Just briefly, the Healthy Homes Renovation Tax Credit was one of the first items that we introduced when this session started. It’s Bill 2. I listened carefully—as finance critic, the goal of the critic is to criticize or point out any failings or shortcomings of this bill. We are here to defend the bill; the government is here. I just want to say a few points about the Healthy Homes Renovation Tax Credit. It does help seniors stay in their homes longer. If they renovate their homes, they can get up to $1,500 for expenses that are related to a permanent modification of their home.

I think also there are a few other things this government has done—a lot of things this government has done—to support seniors. I only have a little bit of time, but we have enhancements to energy and property tax credits for seniors, and seniors can get a maximum credit of $1,025 annually. There’s also the Ontario senior homeowners’ property tax grant. The maximum grant was doubled in 2010 to $500, as announced in the 2008 budget. That’s another way of helping seniors. There’s the Ontario sales tax credit, an annual—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Thank you. Questions and comments?

Mr. Rob Leone: I want to thank the member for Beaches–East York for his comments and telling the government that they definitely have to look at that owl for that wisdom. We’ll see whether, over the course of this term, they’re going to follow that.

I wanted to touch upon a couple of points that were raised throughout this debate. This is going to involve a $10,000 commitment on the part of seniors, those over 65, to retain the $1,500 tax credit. Now, I know that in talking to seniors, going door to door during the campaign, they always talked about the fact that their main concerns were about how they’re going to actually stay in their homes—not by a ramp that might be built, not by a lift that might be installed, but by the fact that their taxes have gone up, the fact that their property taxes have gone up.

Someone has to actually have the $10,000 to be able to take the tax credit. Not a lot of people who are seniors on fixed incomes have a disposable amount of $10,000 that they can put into home renovations to retain this tax credit. That’s why I think that our proposal, the proposal by the member for Algoma–Manitoulin in his bill last week, to reduce the HST on home heating, benefits everybody, not a select few.

I think that if we had a choice between the two, we should be doing something that benefits the most amount of people, which is why we support the bill that was proposed by the member for Algoma–Manitoulin, and that’s why we have difficulty supporting a bill that very few seniors will actually qualify for.

I think the government should understand that we are here to represent all Ontarians and that this bill and whatever we do with tax policy should reflect that.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Ms. Cindy Forster: Now, I’m not the health critic, but I’m going to raise a seniors’ issue under this bill that is uncomfortable—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Excuse me one second.

Ms. Cindy Forster: Oh, excuse me. I’m not—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): You had me confused there for a few seconds. The member from Welland.

Ms. Cindy Forster: Thank you again, Speaker. I’m going to raise an issue, a health issue of seniors, that probably would be better addressed than the bill that’s before us today. It’s a topic that many seniors are uncomfortable speaking about but that 30% of them report being afflicted with, and that is the issue of incontinence. Both men and women—seniors, over the age of probably 60—suffer from incontinence, and it costs those seniors up to $3,000 per year to buy incontinence products. That is a lot of money.

It also increases health care costs, because if seniors don’t have the money to change those products on a regular basis, they develop infections and bed sores and rashes. Then they have to seek medical care and sometimes hospital care.

There is a gentleman who lives in my community; his name is Jack O’Neil, and he is the president of Niagara Gatekeepers. That is an agency that kind of looks out for seniors, as a watchdog for seniors. He’s asked me to bring forward this important issue and to ask the government and the Minister of Health to investigate this problem and to provide some relief, under the health portfolio, to assist seniors across the province.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Coteau: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and congratulations on your recent appointment as the Deputy Speaker.

I’m very supportive of this bill, Bill 2, the Healthy Homes Renovation Tax Credit. When I was in my community talking to people during my campaign, there was a lot of support for this particular item in the platform. You know, it allows seniors in our communities to stay in their homes later in life, it helps families who share their homes with seniors to invest in their property to better accommodate the seniors in their homes, and also it supports over 10,000 jobs.

I know that this whole strategy—I’m very proud of this particular bill and the Liberal platform and, in addition to that, what’s happened over the last eight years in regard to supporting our aging population. This is the government that’s invested into the cutting of generic drug costs, which I believe is a strong indicator that it wants to make sure that this is the best province in the entire country where one can age. I think if you look through the platform, if you look at the track record of this government, you can tell easily that it’s a government that truly wants to invest in making sure that we deliver on that promise.

My community, Don Valley East—and particularly Don Mills—has a higher percentage of seniors than the national or provincial average, and when I was knocking on doors, talking to people, there were different points being brought up by members of my communities. Seniors would say things like, “If we invest in our homes, we can live here longer.”

The environment has a particular effect on health, and it causes less of a burden on the health care system, so I think this is a fantastic bill. I support it and I hope the other parties opposite will do the same.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member from Beaches–East York, you have two minutes to wrap up.

Mr. Michael Prue: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I was unaware until you were congratulated. Is, in fact, this correct, that you are the new Deputy Speaker? You are. Well, congratulations, then. I wish you much success in this position, because we go back a long way, back to city of Toronto days.

In any event, to answer the members, thank you very much to the member from Scarborough Southwest and the members from Cambridge, Welland and Don Valley East. The member from Scarborough Southwest asked a question: Why is it Beaches–East York and not The Beach-East York? It’s because this is set by federal statute, and Maria Minna, who was then the MP for Beaches–East York—it used to be called Beaches–Woodbine—changed the name to reflect East York but left “Beaches” as it was. Since this province has adopted the federal boundaries, the name remains the same. Perhaps one day it will be The Beach. I’m not sure.

But that is not up to me, nor even this Legislature; it is up to our federal counterparts, and maybe we’ll ask MP Kellway to take a look at it.

In any event, the other members are relatively new. I had hoped that there would be some discussion on what I had to say rather than government members reiterating their support for the bill and members in the opposition talking about other issues. Really, quite frankly, I think that what needs to be said here is: Is this bill one that is going to get broad public support, in view of the economic circumstances we have and in view of the fact that there may be other programs at risk if monies are cut?

Seniors are going to have to answer that, and it behooves all of us to send this to committee, to listen very intently and carefully to what seniors want and to try to help the majority. Not the minority of seniors, who live in nice homes and want to repair them, but all of the seniors, including those 100,000 who live in poverty and those that simply don’t have the economic wherewithal to benefit from this particular bill.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, I move adjournment of the debate.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The minister has moved adjournment of the debate. Does the House agree? Carried.

Second reading debate adjourned.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): This House stands recessed until 10:30 a.m.

The House recessed from 1005 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Steve Clark: I’m pleased to welcome to Queen’s Park today Georgia and Victor Braney, grandparents of page Madeline Braney, who are here from the member for Whitby–Oshawa’s riding to watch their granddaughter. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: I would like to welcome in advance Marnie Kloppenburg from Arva, Ontario, in my great riding of Lambton–Kent–Middlesex, who will be joining us soon. Marnie is the mother of legislative page Lila Kloppenburg, so we’d like to say “welcome.”

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: I’m pleased to introduce and welcome Mary Gordon, the founder and president of Roots of Empathy, who is here today to support the work we are doing to prevent bullying. Thank you, Mary.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: It’s my pleasure today to welcome Jim and Judy Gowland, to my left. They are proud sponsors of Team Farmall. They are from Teeswater, Ontario, but more importantly, they’re the aunt and uncle of page Alli.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: I believe we have unanimous consent that all members be permitted to wear red ribbons in recognition of World AIDS Day. Today is the 30th anniversary of World AIDS Day. I just want to congratulate the Canadian AIDS Society; it’s celebrating its 25th anniversary today.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The minister has asked for unanimous consent. Agreed? It’s agreed.

Mr. Ted Arnott: By way of introduction, I’d like to introduce constituents of mine who are here in the visitors’ gallery: Janet Vallery and Dave Hurlburt from the township of Centre Wellington.

Mr. Toby Barrett: I wish to introduce Gary Nichols, president of Nichols Gravel. He has operations in your riding, Speaker, as well as mine, and he’s here to get some redress and address some issues of justice.

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: I’m pleased to introduce constituents of mine who worked on my campaign as well: Ann and Michael Parsons from Orillia.

M. Grant Crack: C’est un grand plaisir pour moi ce matin de présenter notre ancien député provincial de Glengarry–Prescott–Russell.

It’s a great pleasure for me to introduce our former MPP who served our riding of Glengarry–Prescott–Russell so well and who was so well respected by both sides of the House: Mr. Jean-Marc Lalonde.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Indeed a very warm welcome to our former colleague. On behalf of the Speaker, I get to say thank you for being here, and welcome.

Further introductions?

Mr. David Zimmer: It’s my great pleasure to introduce two guests of mine in the audience: Corporal Shum, who’s with the 32nd Canadian service battalion, and Second Lieutenant Ju, who’s with the Canadian combat engineers.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further introductions?

We have two delegations in the Speaker’s gallery today as guests. Please welcome our first delegation, from the National School of Public Policy in Lahore, Pakistan, led by Mr. Naeem Aslam. The delegation is accompanied by the Consul General of Pakistan at Toronto, Mr. Sahebzada A. Khan. Welcome them, please. We’re glad you’re here with us. Thank you for joining us.

Our second delegation I would like to introduce—our visitors in the Speaker’s gallery are hosted by the Association of Former Parliamentarians. Today in the Speaker’s gallery, we have members from the Quebec Association of Former Parliamentarians: Madame Cécile Vermette, the president of the Quebec Association of Former Parliamentarians and a former MNA in the riding of Marie–Victorin from 1985 to 2007; and Madame Marie Tanguay, the executive secretary of the Quebec Association of Former Parliamentarians. Welcome.

From the Manitoba Association of Former Parliamentarians: Ms. Linda Asper, the chairperson of the Manitoba Association of Former Parliamentarians and the MLA for the riding of Riel from 1999 to 2003; Ms. Muriel Smith, a member of the Manitoba Association of Former Parliamentarians and the former MLA for the riding of Osborne from 1985 to 1988; and Mr. Clif Evans, a member of the Manitoba Association of Former Parliamentarians and the former MLA for the riding of Interlake from 1990 to 1999.

From the Ontario Association of Former Parliamentarians: the Rev. Canon Derwyn Shea, the chairman of the Ontario Association of Former Parliamentarians and the former Ontario MPP for High Park–Swansea from 1995 to 1999; Mr. Gilles Morin, the former Deputy Speaker, the vice-chair of the Ontario Association of Former Parliamentarians and the former member for Carleton East from 1985 to 1999; and Mr. Murad Velshi, the secretary of the Ontario Association of Former Parliamentarians and the former MPP for Don Mills from 1987 to 1990; the former MPP for Etobicoke North, Mr. John Hastings, 1995 to 2003; and the former MPP for Perth–Wellington and Deputy Speaker, Karen Haslam, 1990 to 1995.

Welcome our guests. Thank you for being here.

Applause.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Such a very warm welcome to our House.

It is now time for oral questions.

ORAL QUESTIONS

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING

Mr. Tim Hudak: My question is to the Premier. Premier, we’ve brought forward a number of good ideas to help restrain runaway government spending and create jobs for the people in the province of Ontario. We’ve called for a public sector wage freeze to help us balance the books and preserve essential services. We’ve called for fixing the arbitration system to make sure that agreements are in line with the ability of families to pay. And we’ve called for modernizing the apprenticeship system to create 200,000 jobs in the skilled trades. We’re observing over there, Mr.

Premier, that you have Don Drummond giving you advice from one side and you have Patrick Dillon, who has opposed all three of our ideas, on the other.

I guess it’s fair to say that Mr. Dillon is the one who’s calling the shots. Why else would you oppose our three good ideas?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I always appreciate the opportunity to respond to my honourable colleague’s questions.

I want to introduce a new piece of information here which I think will be illuminating. Here is a quotation: “We have an upcoming, looming shortage of skilled tradespeople in the province, and I see the college having a very big role to play in the promotion of skilled trades to young people.” That statement was made by Ron Johnson, former Conservative Party MPP and chair of the Ontario College of Trades.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Okay, so Ron Johnson is calling the shots; it’s not Patrick Dillon after all. Now we understand. But do you know what? It should be the Premier calling the shots. It should be the cabinet making the decisions.

Premier, not too long ago I met with a young man named Ryan who desperately wanted to be an electrician. He even had a job lined up with an employer in Cornwall, but he couldn’t get the position because of your outdated apprenticeship system. Basically, the ratios meant that his employer couldn’t hire him. So he got a part-time job working in the warehouse at Walmart. He’s at least earning a cheque and paying the bills, but it’s not what he wanted to do.

I’m going to stand with Ryan. I’m going to stand with those young people who want to get jobs in the province today. You stand with Patrick Dillon and his associates who spent $9 million in attack ads against the PCs. Premier, will you do the right thing and help people like Ryan get jobs as electricians, as plumbers and as HVAC operators?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Premier?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: If my honourable colleague is genuinely interested in helping us create more jobs, then he’ll support our Healthy Homes Renovation Tax Credit which, among other things, is going to create, on an annual basis, 10,500 jobs for construction trades. I’d ask him to support that initiative that is before this House at present.

On the matter of the college, again, I would implore my honourable colleague to have faith and confidence in the new College of Trades. It is something that we have established to inspire confidence among all Ontarians, but especially in our young people and in our families, so they see the trades as a viable alternative career for themselves.

Again, I want to bring to my colleague’s attention that the college is evenly divided between representatives of employers and employees and is chaired by a former Conservative MPP.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Well, Premier, let me bring something to your attention, then. Walter Pamic, from the Ontario Electrical League, a group of small and medium-sized businesses, says about your determination to keep the trades in the 1970s, “To be frank, there is no justification for Ontario’s current three to one apprenticeship ratios. It’s not a matter of safety. It’s not a matter of a lack of work. It’s politics—plain and simple.” And we understand that. We understand your cozy, incestuous, you-scratch-my-back-I-scratch-yours relationship with Patrick Dillon and his special interests.

But if we have a spending crisis in the province of Ontario, if we have a jobs crisis in the province of Ontario, it’s time for you to stand up and act like a Premier. Say no to Patrick Dillon; say yes to Ryan and the young people who want jobs in the province of Ontario. Will you do the right thing and say no to the special interests?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, you will not be surprised to hear that I don’t see it that way.

Under the previous Conservative government, they refused to change any of the ratios. On our watch, we have changed eight ratios. Now we have put in place an independent, arm’s-length college. Its responsibility: It has been specifically mandated to review 34 ratios during the coming year, 2012.

I say it again to my honourable colleague: We should have confidence in the college. It may be headed up by a Conservative, but I have confidence in its objectivity. It is evenly divided between employers and employees. Nonetheless, we should have confidence in our college.

MUNICIPAL PLANNING

Mr. Tim Hudak: Back to the Premier—of course, just like employers across the province, we don’t have confidence in the fixed deck that you have at the College of Trades. You basically sold it off to special interests. I understand that.

Let me ask you another question about confidence, Premier. Eighty municipalities, representing two million people in the province of Ontario, have called for a restoration of local decision-making when it comes to massive industrial wind farms that you’re putting across the province like pins in a pin cushion.

Premier, you’ve said that you’ve listened. You’ve said that you got the message in the last campaign. Will you do the right thing and support the bill, standing in the name of Mr. Smith, the member for Prince Edward–Hastings, and restore local decision-making like the 80 municipalities have called for?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I appreciate the question. It is indeed a very important issue. What we have set out to do here in Ontario is to seize an exciting new opportunity in renewable technologies and clean energy. We’re now at the forefront in all of North America in terms of the pace at which we are proceeding to build up this new sector. We have created 20,000 new jobs so far, we received some $26 billion in new investment in the province of Ontario and we now have clean air. In fact, my honourable colleague will shortly be announcing the closure of two more of our coal-fired plants.

So that’s what we’re talking about here. It’s a very big undertaking. We’re not claiming that we have it perfect, but we’re absolutely committed to ensuring that we have in place the kind of structure that makes sure that we can continue to grow and create jobs and continue to clean up our air.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, nobody believes your fictions anymore when it comes to these jobs that last only as long as their rich subsidies.

But let’s get back to the essence of the question that you skipped over. Later today, Mayor April Jeffs of the township of Wainfleet and Mayor Doug Joyner from the township of West Lincoln will be here, as well as hundreds of other families from across the province of Ontario. Mayor Jeffs and Mayor Joyner oppose that you’re bringing in the largest industrial wind farm in the entire province in West Niagara and the Glanbrook area as well.

Premier, will you look Mayor Jeffs in the eyes and will you look Mayor Joyner in the eyes and tell them that Dalton McGuinty knows better what’s good for their community than they themselves do and than the people they represent do? Or will you say, “Yes, we’ll support Mr. Smith’s bill and restore local decision-making when it comes to these massive industrial wind farm projects”?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, what I will say is that we will not waver in our commitment to continue to upload $500 million in costs which were downloaded onto Ontario municipalities by the previous Conservative government.

We’ve uploaded $1 billion so far; we have half a billion dollars to go. We will not let our municipalities down, as my honourable colleague proposed to do in his platform.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Speaker, the incredible arrogance of the McGuinty government: He says, “We will not waver,” “We will not listen,” “We will not care,” “We will not listen to local people from across the province of Ontario,” because Dalton McGuinty believes he knows best.

John Wilkinson is no longer here. Leona Dombrowsky is no longer here. Carol Mitchell, Maria Van Bommel, Rick Johnson, Lou Rinaldi and Pat Hoy did not stand up for their constituents; they didn’t do the right thing. I’m proud to say that now Conservative members represent each and every one of those constituents, standing up for local residents, saying no, saying, “Restore local decision-making.”

That same song and dance cost you all these members, Premier. Have you heard the message? Do you get the music? Will you actually do the right thing and restore local decision-making and let local neighbours have their—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Premier?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To return to the matter at hand: No, I cannot support the initiative put forward by my honourable colleague, because in truth, it would spell the end of a very important public policy, an initiative that is broadly supported by the people of Ontario, and that is that we find a way to move off dirty coal and find a way to seize exciting economic opportunities in renewable technology.

If there is another way that we might explore to ensure that we strike a proper balance, I am open to that, Speaker. But the proposal put forward by my honourable colleague would introduce so much uncertainty and create such a patchwork when it comes to securing investment in our province that it would run counter to the determination expressed by all Ontarians.

The final comment I’ll make, Speaker, is that the single greatest source of applicants for initiatives in the feed-in tariff program comes from rural Ontario.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The question goes to the Premier. In these difficult times, I would submit that the government needs to focus on the challenging times that are facing families: making life more affordable, creating more jobs and improving our health care system. But the Premier insists that we simply can’t afford these measures. Why does he believe, though, that we can afford massive tax cuts to corporations?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, in fact, I say to my honourable colleague—and of course I’m pleased to receive the question—that we are trying to bring a very deliberate and balanced and responsible approach to dealing with our finances. That includes our Healthy Homes Renovation Tax Credit. That does provide benefit to our families in their homes.

We’re responding to a demand made by seniors for a long time now. They’re saying, “If at all possible, we’d like to live out the remainder of our lives, or as much of our lives as possible, in our homes.” So we’re going to create a tax credit, it’s up to $1,500 every year, to allow seniors to make renovations to their homes to make them more user-friendly, safe and accessible. At the same time, Speaker, that will add $800 million in economic activity to us on an annual basis and create some 10,500 jobs.

So I say to my honourable colleague that it’s a specific measure designed to help families in their homes.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, the Premier says we can’t afford relief for families to take the HST off of home heating but he insists that the biggest banks do need a break in this province. Quarterly profits at CIBC soared 59% today, to $800 million. You know, that’s over $6,000 a minute in profits. That’s good news for the bank, Speaker, but does the Premier really think that they’re the ones that need a tax break?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, the banks are always a fun target, but they do employ over 400,000 people in the GTA. They’re the only sector that continued to grow throughout the recession.

Speaker, the other thing I want to mention is that we have put in place an Ontario Child Benefit. We have put in place a Clean Energy Benefit, Speaker. We do want to move ahead, both with our Healthy Homes Renovation Tax Credit and we want to reduce tuition for Ontario students. These are all good examples of specific measures designed to help people in their homes, and I would ask my honourable colleague to give some consideration to supporting the new initiatives that we’re introducing here to help families in their homes.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, Toronto Dominion Bank also reported quarterly earnings. In three months, that bank earned $1.6 billion, an increase of 58%. So just that we’re clear, that’s about $12,000 a minute. Again, excellent news for the bank, excellent news for the shareholders, but do they really need another tax cut?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, again, I think we’re pretty lucky that Canadian banks headquartered in Ontario are recognized as the strongest banks in the world. I think that’s a pretty good thing. I think the fact that they employ hundreds of thousands of Ontarians is also a good thing.

But having said that, Speaker, we’ve been working hard as a government to strike a balance in terms of supports we lend to growth in our business sector and support for our families. I say again to my honourable colleague: There are two specific initiatives that we are going to bring in this Legislature. One is already on the floor, and that is our determination to put in place a Healthy Homes Renovation Tax Credit to help families in their homes. Beyond that, Speaker, we want to reduce tuition by 30% for our families. We think these are important, practical, pragmatic, sensible initiatives, and we’re finding the money from within.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Back to the Premier. I hate to burst the Premier’s bubble; profits are soaring in the financial sector but employment is not. In fact, Statistics Canada reports that there are 20,000 fewer jobs, fewer people working in the financial sector this year. So why, Speaker—it begs the question—why do we continue to cut taxes for companies that are recording record profits and shedding jobs?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I’m going to encourage my honourable colleague to take a look at the experience of the government of Manitoba. Speaker, they cut corporate taxes in 2003; then they cut them in 2004. They cut them again in 2005, then they cut them in 2006, then they cut them in 2007, then they cut them in 2008 and then they cut them in 2009, all with a view to ensuring that we bring a balanced approach to our competitiveness.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they also married that with supports for families, but I encourage my honourable colleague to take a lesson from our next-door-neighbour NDP government, where we bring a balanced, thoughtful approach. We want to make sure our businesses are competitive so they create more jobs while we provide opportunities for our families for supports in their homes.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, the banking sector is the single largest recipient of the Premier’s corporate tax giveaways. By 2013, the province will be handing that sector over half a billion dollars each and every year. How can the Premier tell families that he cannot afford to take the HST off of home heating while giving banks making $12,000 a minute a tax break?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, I want to remind my honourable colleague that we have in place an Ontario Clean Energy Benefit. It is valued at about four times the value of the proposition put forward by my honourable colleague. Her proposal costs some $350 million.

We have a different choice. Our choice, the Healthy Homes Renovation Tax Credit—not only does it cost less, not only have we found the money from within, but it will create 10,500 jobs, it will create $800 million in economic activity in the province of Ontario and it will relieve pressure when it comes to the health care budget as we help families stay on in their homes for a longer period of time. That’s the choice that we are making as a government. We’re comfortable with that choice and we think it’s in keeping with the balanced approach, the steady-handed approach that Ontarians want us to take.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Well, Speaker, more banks are going to be reporting their earnings over the next couple of days, and analysts are expecting the exact same results across the board: higher revenues, higher profits.

How can the Premier tell families, on the one hand, that they have to expect cuts from everything from child care to health care—something that Manitoba is not doing, by the way—while at the same time this Premier is saying that they’re okay to make record profits and give them huge tax cuts? Because that’s the priority of this government: tax cuts to banks, not services for families like child care and decent health care.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I’ll remind my honourable colleague that in our 2010 budget we put out a pretty dramatic package of tax reforms. That included about $5 billion in reductions for our businesses, but it was complemented by $12 billion in reductions for Ontarians themselves, for families. It includes 93% of Ontarians, who now have a permanent tax cut. Families are receiving an average of $355 less by way of income tax that they’re paying this year and every year going forward. Some 90,000 people will no longer pay personal income tax in the province of Ontario because of the changes that we have made.

Again, I remind her of our Ontario Child Benefit: It’s $1,100 per child; a support like this does not exist in any other province. We put it here in Ontario to help our most needy families.

MUNICIPAL PLANNING

Mr. Todd Smith: Mr. Speaker, the Premier has already said today that he won’t listen to rural Ontario, so let me try the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

Minister, this afternoon, my private member’s bill, Bill 10, the Local Municipality Democracy Act, 2011, will receive second reading. This bill will restore to Ontario municipalities the local planning control that was stripped from them by amendments your government made to the Planning Act.

Municipal councillors, mayors and the people they were elected to represent are demanding a say when developers propose an industrial wind factory in their community. Your government shut them out of the planning process. I’m asking you today, Minister: Will you support the bill that’s being presented this afternoon that will give them their voice back?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I can’t tell you how happy I am to have this question from the member opposite, because we are a government that—actually, one of the tenets of our term has been to restore the relationship between the provincial government and municipal governments. That’s what we’re about. Many of us are here because of the complete disarray of that relationship before 2003, between amalgamation and downloading of services—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): This isn’t the moment in which things get quiet to interject.

Minister?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I know that for many of the members opposite, this is a painful reminder of years when there was such friction and such conflict between the provincial government and the municipal governments. We believe that that’s not the way that provincial government and municipal governments should operate. The municipal government is a level of government that has—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Back to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing: Minister, you can’t pass the buck on this one. We on this side of the House already know where the Minister of Energy stands. He doesn’t support treating municipalities as true partners, and that’s why your government lost so many seats in rural Ontario.

It’s your job to represent those councils, some 80, that have passed resolutions asking for the powers back that Mr. Smith’s bill will provide. They deserve as much respect in the planning process for massive wind or solar projects as they do for any other type of development, and you know that.

Don’t hide from the issue, Minister. I’m asking you: Why won’t you do the right thing and stand up for local democracy by supporting this legislation?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, it’s almost irresistible for me to resist the urge to think about the days when I was sitting in that gallery, fighting for some respect for the voice of the local democratic municipal governments in this province when hospitals were being closed, when cities were being amalgamated, when—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. It was relatively quiet to ask the question; I’d like to hear the answer.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I do not need the interjections now.

Minister?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, I’d like to make two final points.

I think the members opposite know that it is mandatory under the renewable energy approvals process for proponents to consult with municipalities. It is mandatory.

Secondly, as the Premier has already said today, what we will do is what the party opposite did not commit to do: We will continue to upload the services that were downloaded by that government when they had the opportunity—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. We did such a good job yesterday. One moment, please. I did hear a few very-close-to-personal comments to individual members. I really do want you to resist that. If you’ve got a comment to make, make it about policy. I do resent any member being accused of being anything but honourable in this place.

ABORIGINAL HOUSING

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs. Minister, you’ll know that there are people in Attawapiskat today, at 17 below zero, living in tents and backyard sheds—something that Ontarians and Canadians should never stand for.

We watched with horror yesterday the federal government say, “The solution is to blame the community. It’s all their fault.” They’re trying to accuse the community of not being able to manage the money, and, quite frankly, that flies in the face of reality. The community’s problem is one of policy on the part of this federal government, of underfunding and also inaction on the part of the federal government.

So I have a simple question to the Ontario government: Does Ontario support the federal government in blaming this community?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I think that blame in this situation produces no good result. What I have been doing for the last week is talking to the chiefs who are involved. I actually did talk to the federal minister last week, working with my colleague in MCSCS to make sure that Emergency Management Ontario and our officials from the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs were on the ground. We were there as of Monday morning and we have been working as part of a team. We’re now aware that there are some remedies that we can work on in terms of helping people to move into some of the structures that are in better shape.

But Mr. Speaker, the long-term solution is not going to be found unless First Nations, the federal government and the provincial government work together, and the federal government has a responsibility—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Well, Minister, meanwhile people stay in tents and people stay in backyards. My question to you was this, and I’m a little bit hopeful in the answer that you gave: that what we have is the blame game going on, and at the end of the day people are still in tents and people are still in backyards. My question to you is a really simple one. Is the province prepared to do the heavy lifting that needs to be done in order to stand shoulder to shoulder with the community to take on the federal government so that we can actually get them to do what needs to be done, and we take our responsibilities as well?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We are, right now, standing shoulder to shoulder with the First Nations. We are there. There are provincial officials on the ground. They are working with the community to do everything that we can do to respond to the crisis.

It is the easiest thing in the world for this whole situation to devolve into a fight. That is the easiest way out. That is the path of least resistance, to point fingers and blame and distract from the issue, which is that there are layered and complex problems that affect the lives of children and men and women living in these isolated communities. Attawapiskat is not the only community; it is not the only situation that needs attention.

What I’m saying to my officials is, where are the other issues? Where are the concerns that are going to come forward as winter sets in?

We’ve got to work with the federal government. We’ve got to make sure that we hold their feet to the fire—absolutely. But as a nation, we have to take responsibility—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

ANTI-BULLYING INITIATIVES

Mr. Michael Coteau: My question is to the Minister of Education. Minister, yesterday you introduced anti-bullying legislation. As a former school board trustee representing Don Valley East, I know first-hand how pervasive bullying is and how tough it is to eradicate.

I’m so pleased that all parties in this House agree that something needs to be done. We’re all aware of the heartbreaking stories of kids taking their own lives in part because of bullying they face from their peers. And we know this is an issue that we have to pull together to support—political leaders, schools, parents, teachers and kids. But legislation alone will not end bullying in our schools. Minister, what additional steps are you taking to change the culture in Ontario schools so they can become accepting schools?

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: Thank you to the member for Don Valley East for that question. I was also very proud to be in this House as all members across took a stand on ensuring that Ontario schools would be accepting schools.

But, Mr. Speaker, the member is exactly right. Legislation alone is not the solution. That is why I was so pleased this morning to announce that the Accepting Schools Act is just one part of a comprehensive action plan to combat bullying. This plan will include a public awareness campaign to engage every Ontarian in standing up against bullying. We’ll seek the advice of experts to ensure that resources in our schools for parents and for the community are the right ones. We will be establishing an Accepting Schools expert panel.

We’ll be reaching out to those with knowledge about curriculum and Ontario’s curriculum council to report back on strengthening equity and inclusive education, and we will look to the Children’s Mental Health Strategy funding of $257 million over the next few years to support students in schools.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Coteau: Speaker, I thank the minister for her response. I’m so proud to be part of a government that is working to make things better for children when it comes to bullying. I’m proud to be a member of this Legislative Assembly. I think this is an issue that we all agree on.

Minister, many of the devastating stories we’ve heard about bullying have to do with homophobia. In 2011, a national climate survey by Egale found that 64% of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer students and 61% of students with LGBTQ parents felt unsafe in schools. This is unacceptable. I am proud that our Premier spoke directly to kids who suffered from this type of discrimination in his It Gets Better video.

Minister, what would the Accepting Schools Act do to combat bullying for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer students in our schools?

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: Speaker, those statistics are haunting, the statistics that my colleague has put to this Legislature.

We know that student-led organizations give LGBTQ students and their allies the space to feel safe. They’re a critically important part of making our schools accepting. That’s why we are being absolutely clear in legislation that, if passed, any student who would like to form an organization to promote respect for people of all sexual orientations and gender identities, including organizations with the name “gay-straight alliance” or another name, must be supported by their board and school to do so.

I’m listening to experts like Jeremy Dias, the founder of Jer’s Vision, who says, “By working with boards to provide a Rainbow Alliance, GSA or other similar group, the province is ensuring students will get the support they need.”

It’s about the support to students, Mr. Speaker, and that’s what we are focusing on.

WORKERS’ COMPENSATION

Mr. Randy Hillier: My question is to the Premier. Mr. Premier, last session your government passed Bill 119. This bill will raise WSIB rates on contractors and force them to insure secretaries and office managers as if they were the ones working on the construction sites. These employers have told us that in these tough economic times, they will have to lay off workers or close up shop entirely, because the cost of doing business is just too high. We are in the midst of a job crisis, and the construction sector is getting slammed.

Premier, you still have not proclaimed this bill. Will you put the construction industry at ease by committing to repeal this job-killing legislation?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Labour.

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I’m pleased to answer a question from my critic on the issue. This government believes in taking into account the needs of Ontario’s workers and our businesses. Bill 119 was passed back in November 2008. It amends the Workplace Safety and Insurance Act to extend mandatory WSIB coverage to independent operators, sole proprietors, partners in a partnership and executive officers of a corporation carrying on business in construction.

The legislation will improve health and safety in the construction industry and reduce underground economic activity. The underground economy puts our economy and businesses at a competitive disadvantage and denies Ontario revenues to support our critical public services, such as health care and education.

With this legislation, Ontario will be better equipped to prevent workplace accidents and diseases and in our efforts to combat the underground economy.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Randy Hillier: Back to the Premier—because, Premier, the Ontario PCs have made it clear since you introduced this bill that it would kill jobs and raise taxes, but you didn’t care. Despite opposition from all quarters, you passed Bill 119, but you still haven’t proclaimed it into law. The Ministry of Labour says that Bill 119 will come into effect January 1, 2012. In a letter that you wrote to the CFIB, you said that it would come into effect sometime in 2012. Yet the Office of the Employer Adviser claims that Bill 119 won’t come into effect until January 1, 2013.

Premier, why won’t you just fess up, be honest and give us a straight answer, so at least these contractors can pre-order a large stack of pink slips for their employees?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: Our legislation will come into effect in 2012. The three-year passage between the passage of Bill 119 and the proclamation is allowing the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board to work with our construction stakeholders, to assess and to develop the necessary policies, systems and administrative process needed to implement the amendments and the related regulations.

In preparation of the anticipated coming into force of amendments in 2012, the WSIB consulted with our stakeholders to develop new policies and, as well, systems to implement the legislative amendments. We listened to people’s concerns and provided exemptions based on those conversations. We want to help small family businesses run, where one family member provides office work, where only one executive officer of a corporation or one partner does not perform construction work. We tried to provide those exemptions. We listened to our stakeholders and took the time—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

HEALTH PROMOTION

M me France Gélinas: Ma question est pour le premier ministre. Yesterday, the Chief Medical Officer of Health tabled her report. Dr. King’s report is clear: The rate of chronic disease, obesity and cancer will not be reversed until we develop a healthy public policy. That means a health promotion lens across every ministry, every policy, every program and every service.

Speaker, as our Chief Medical Officer of Health is sounding the alarm on health promotion, why did the Premier get rid of the Ministry of Health Promotion?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, to the Minister of Health.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I welcome the report from Ontario’s Chief Medical Officer of Health. Dr. King has been a long and strong advocate for addressing the social determinants of health, for addressing prevention, so that people actually don’t get sick. We do have an aging population. It’s more important than ever that people stay healthy as long as possible.

Speaker, we actually had some good news this week. We saw that the incidence of smoking amongst our young people has come down dramatically, by 25% in the past two years.

We are seeing progress on some fronts. On others, the success is not so promising. Our rates of childhood obesity indicate that we have a serious problem now and in the future. That’s why our government, in the election, committed to tackling childhood obesity. Our target is to reduce the number—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: Back to the Premier, Mr. Speaker: I’d like to quote from Dr. King, who says that it is time to shift our focus from health care to prevention. She writes that the greatest threats to health in our society are obesity, tobacco and alcohol abuse, and she talks about poverty reduction—all things that have very little to do with the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care and all have to do with health promotion.

If you want to save money, if you want to save medicare, we need to take actions today. Instead, Mr. Speaker, what did the Premier do? He eliminated the very ministry that could do this. He eliminated the Ministry of Health Promotion.

Again to the Premier: Why did you eliminate the Ministry of Health Promotion?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: From my perspective, bringing health promotion into the Ministry of Health is absolutely the right thing to do because we need to focus more on prevention. We need to see prevention, early intervention, as part of the continuum of care. That will keep people healthier.

Our government has a strong history of working collaboratively across ministries. Our poverty reduction strategy involved people from many different ministries. Our Mental Health And Addictions Strategy, as the member opposite knows, involves contributions from many ministries.

We must work collaboratively to achieve the healthiest population we possibly can. In fact, we aspire to Ontario becoming the healthiest place to grow up and grow old in.

RENEWABLE ENERGY

Mr. Jeff Leal: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Energy. This fall, many of my constituents were concerned about the instability injected into Ontario’s clean energy economy due to the opposition’s constant rant about ripping up the Green Energy Act. Clean energy is helping to replace dirty coal-fired plants, cleaning up the air, protecting the health of Ontarians and reducing our province’s environmental footprint. This means that our children and grandchildren have a prosperous future.

In my riding of Peterborough, people want to ensure that the benefits of clean energy are around not only for the next two or three years but also for the next 20 to 30 years. Minister, what is being done to ensure that Ontario’s green energy program is sustainable and prosperous for the long term for all Ontarians?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: The member from Peterborough is absolutely right: Ontarians have made a lot of progress cleaning up the air since 2003. We’re almost 90% out of coal, and the green energy initiatives and the Green Energy Act are driving that; they’re really driving it.

We want to make sure that the clean air, the jobs and the investment that go along with the Green Energy Act are sustainable in the medium and the long term. We’ve launched a review of our approach over the past two years with a view to strengthening it, getting input where we need further input, making sure that we have the smoothest approach possible to hooking up these projects, and making sure we have a firm foundation for jobs in all communities and investment coming into the province of Ontario in the years to come. It is the right thing to do for today and for our children tomorrow and in the future.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jeff Leal: Thank you very much, Minister. I know that our Green Energy Act is helping farmers and rural Ontarians to make money off of clean energy while helping us to get off dirty coal-fired generation.

The Green Energy Act has brought millions of dollars of private investment to Ontario and made the province a global leader in green manufacturing. But all of this is at risk because of the opposition’s private member’s bill. I’m concerned that this bill will signal that Ontario is not a place to invest, and I’m concerned that it will deprive farmers and rural Ontarians of the means to earn extra money off their land, leading to decisions being made by the Ontario Municipal Board upon appeal.

My constituents believe in our clean energy economy and the jobs and investment they have created. Minister, can you tell us what the impact of the feed-in tariff review will have on Ontario’s green energy economy?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: Well, the member is right. Many thousands of these green energy applications and contracts are from rural Ontario. Thousands of jobs and millions of dollars of investment are flowing into rural Ontario from the green energy initiative at a time when every part of Ontario is anxious for more investment and more jobs. The feed-in tariff will make sure that we have a strong foundation for the future.

We don’t want to burden any community or business with process, procedures, extra steps and extra costs. We want an approach where we can tell people that they can or can’t, early on. We want an approach which signals to the investment community that Ontario is a great place to land jobs and investment. And we want an approach which will continue to clean up the air and protect the health of Ontarians today and into the future.

HYDRO TRANSMISSION

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Energy. Minister, the Ontario Power Authority was created by your government as a transitional agency. But not only have the OPA costs grown by a whopping 465% in the last five short years; now these Queen’s Park bureaucrats are making job-killing decisions that are jeopardizing Ontario’s rural families.

Earlier this week, we heard the finance minister commit to reviewing the Leamington transmission line project, which the OPA cancelled after three years of preparation. In jeopardy are the 2,300 construction jobs and the 1,000 permanent private sector jobs.

I ask the minister, why are you allowing these faceless OPA bureaucrats to continue to waste money and make decisions—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Minister of Energy.

Hon. Christopher Bentley: Thank you very much, Speaker. You know, we want to make sure that Ontarians have the power they need where individuals or businesses need it, that it’s safe and reliable and that it’s clean, and we’ve been doing a lot of work the last eight years.

The party opposite, when they were in power, let generation lapse and we had an increasingly unreliable system, so we’ve greatly increased generation and we’ve been repairing and modernizing the very transmission system that he speaks of. The people who have been hard at work at this—OPA, Hydro One and others—take a look at issues such as down in Leamington. We want to get the best advice from those businesses that want to bring on jobs—and many of them will be clean energy jobs—so that we can land the investment, we can land the jobs. We’ll be working with the community on the real business prospects here.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Rick Nicholls: Mr. Speaker, my riding of Chatham–Kent–Essex has been hit hard by job losses; certainly one of the hardest-hit areas in the province. The Leamington transmission line project was supposed to be completed in 2013 and bring desperately-needed jobs for families in my riding. Yet, the minister allowed these faceless Toronto bureaucrats at the OPA to cancel this project three years in.

Minister, your fondness for review—I hold in my hand an email from the OPA stating that they will not be moving forward with this project. I would ask page Lila to deliver this to the minister.

The families of Leamington don’t need—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Minister of Energy.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. When I stand, you sit down.

Minister?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: Thank you, and I want to thank the member from Chatham–Kent–Essex for his question—a very important question. The Minister of Finance raised this issue about the transmission with me and spoke to me very directly. I know he’s having discussions with the people from Hydro One and the OPA as well. My expectation is that wherever there are job opportunities, we take the realistic economic look to find out what they are and make sure that those get the power they need.

Jobs are invested in the Green Energy Act, which the others are going to put an end to if their bill ever gets passed this afternoon. Jobs are invested in the southwest economic development fund, which the side opposite has said that they’re not going to support.

It’s time to stop talking about the possibility of jobs and start supporting the jobs that are all over rural communities and will come into Chatham–Kent–Essex, will come into Essex and will come into southwestern Ontario—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The question is to the Premier. Essex county is concerned about being able to fund their doctor recruitment program after Windsor decided to pull the funding. The county says they’re experiencing a shortage of doctors, with 1.2 doctors for every thousand, compared to Ontario’s average of 1.8.

The province needs to be involved in recruiting doctors to underserviced communities, Speaker, so my question is: Why is the Premier ignoring the doctor shortage in Essex county and other Ontario communities?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, to the Minister of Health.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Speaker, this government is doing anything but ignoring the doctor shortage. In fact, 2.1 million more people, according to the OMA, are now attached to primary care physicians than when we took office. The fact that we’ve got more doctors working means more people are getting access to primary care. We’re proud of the progress we’ve made.

There are still parts of the province where access to primary care is not sufficient. There are other parts of the province where, actually, we’ve got doctors looking for patients instead of patients looking for doctors.

We’ve made tremendous progress, and I’m more than happy to hear more about what’s happening in this particular community.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Well, Speaker, according to the county warden, some area doctors in the region have 6,000 patients. I think they’re actually looking for more doctors, not the other way around.

The Windsor Regional Hospital CEO says he’s worried about the situation, and he says, “Right now the situation is stable, but it would take very little”—very little—“for it to start going backwards.”

During the election campaign, New Democrats proposed a plan to recruit doctors to underserviced communities like Essex and others. When will we see the Premier’s plan to bring doctors to underserviced communities like Essex?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Speaker, we have made tremendous progress: 3,400 more doctors are working in this province now than in 2003; by 2013, we will have doubled the number of new doctors who are ready to practise every year. We’ve made tremendous progress: 200 family health teams and 25 nurse practitioner clinics, including one in Essex.

We’ve made terrific progress. More to do, of course, but we’re on it.

PAN AM GAMES

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: My question is to the minister responsible for the Pan Am Games. My constituents watched the excitement as our athletes competed in the recent Pan and Parapan Am Games in Guadalajara. Our athletes gave their all and made our country proud by bringing home 182 medals, including 43 gold medals.

Excitement is building again as we look ahead to hosting the 2015 Pan Am Games in Toronto. A lot of work has to be done to prepare to host this huge event; that means new jobs and more economic activity. Minister, how will Ontario’s economy benefit from hosting the 2015 Pan Am and Parapan Am Games?

Hon. Charles Sousa: I’d like to thank the member for the question. Our government is very excited to host the Americas at the 2015 Pan and Parapan Am Games in Toronto, and I appreciate his concern regarding Ontario’s economy. After the worst global recession in a generation, growing the economy and creating jobs is a top priority for our government.

The member is correct: hosting the games will provide a significant economic boost for Ontario. Experts estimate it will create 15,000 new jobs directly related to the games and many more spin-off jobs in the construction industry, hospitality, retail and tourism sectors. It will trigger investment of more than $700 million in new and existing sport and recreation infrastructure; attract 250,000 tourists, along with their money spent in our economy; and showcase the province internationally as a great place to invest and conduct business.

Mr. Speaker, we’re all working very hard to deliver a great event, one that enables job creation and economic growth.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Over the next four years, the work to get ready for the games will be a great source of new jobs for people in Ontario and in my riding of Scarborough–Rouge River, which is next door to where the pool will be built.

But we also need to plan for the future. The games offer the tremendous opportunity to develop our local infrastructure and to benefit our communities for generations to come. After 2015’s games have come and gone, what will be the lasting impact on Toronto and other communities, Mr. Minister?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Thank you again for the question. The member raises an excellent point. As we develop the facilities and infrastructure for the games, we must also ensure that our investments will continue to pay off.

Take the athletes’ village in the West Don Lands. It will become home to approximately 10,000 athletes and team officials during the 2015 Pan Am Games. Following the games, the athletes’ village will become a new mixed-use, pedestrian-friendly community that will revitalize the West Don Lands and Toronto’s waterfront.

It will also include a multi-use facility with access to sport and recreation, as well as much-needed student and low-income housing. As well, this project brings new jobs and economic growth, but also long-term benefits through revitalization and new assets to the local community. It is just one example of the exciting opportunities gained by hosting the games, and our government is pleased to continue to work hard to deliver these kinds of projects in advance of the Pan Am Games.

MUNICIPAL PLANNING

Ms. Laurie Scott: My question is to the Minister of Energy. I have two of my municipalities in Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock, the city of Kawartha Lakes and the municipality of Cavan Monaghan, that have both passed resolutions to restore local autonomy in respect to the renewable energy projects. One of the industrial wind turbine projects would be erected in the Oak Ridges moraine.

Minister, do you support erecting a 40-storey wind turbine in the protected Oak Ridges moraine?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I thank the member for the question. We have a province-wide approach to renewable energy projects, which help clean up the air and bring in investment and jobs; a province-wide approach which requires input from municipalities, requires a number of environmental and related assessments and requires consultation, including public consultations.

These approaches and procedures need to be conducted in order to get the best input, and then decisions will be made by the Ministry of the Environment on the right approach.

We’re conducting a review right now to see whether we can strengthen the approach, whether we can get additional input, but we’re not going to waver from the requirement. There needs to be a strong, province-wide approach so we can clean up the air, bring in the investment and locate the jobs, many of which are in rural Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The member from Huron–Bruce.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Speaker, I find it hard to believe that the Ministers of Municipal Affairs and Energy continue to be out of touch and ignore the positions taken by municipal councils across this province.

For instance, in Port Elgin, the council of Saugeen Shores has objected to the CAW industrial wind turbine because it does not comply with the rules you created, meaning the 550-metre setback.

Residents in my riding of Huron–Bruce want to know why you’re allowing the CAW turbine to be exempted from the rules that you created. The rules you created—you’re ignoring them now.

So my question is: When will you do the right thing and start listening to the 80 municipalities that have passed resolutions for an immediate moratorium?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: Thank you. When we brought in the Green Energy Act, we heard that there should be a province-wide approach to the location of green energy initiatives. We heard that from many. We heard it from municipalities, we heard it from individuals and we heard it from those who were looking to invest in the province of Ontario.

Now, if there are ways to improve this, if there are ways to strengthen it, if there are ways to get further input, we’d like to do that. This is a very exciting, evolutionary initiative. It has located over 20,000 jobs, direct and indirect, in Ontario and $26 billion worth of investment. We want that to continue because we need it. But what we can’t have is an investment climate which depends on different resolutions by different councils or communities at different times, because that will never attract—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

ABORIGINAL RIGHTS

Mr. John Vanthof: My question is to the Acting Premier. The Wahgoshig First Nation has repeatedly expressed concern about the lack of consultation regarding the activities of Solid Gold Resources on their traditional lands. Your own ministry, in a letter on November 8, has stated: “The ministry continues to believe that consultation to date regarding your exploration program has been inadequate given concerns that the WFN has raised about potential impacts on its aboriginal and treaty rights, and we must repeat our earlier request that Solid Gold suspend its drilling program immediately.” The ministry said that.

The First Nation is here today, protesting and forced to launch court proceedings because the company refused the ministry’s request. My question is simple: Is the government actually going to fulfill its obligations, or is it just rhetoric on a piece of paper?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: To the Minister of Northern Development and Mines.

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: Thank you very much for the question. Speaker, we take our duty to consult very, very seriously. We understand that in order to achieve that which is possible, we cannot do that in isolation, without any of the partners, with regard to mining. So in short, the answer is that duty to consult is paramount. We believe in that. We have a ministry that is dedicated to that, and we will continue to ensure that everyone understands the importance of the duty to consult.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. John Vanthof: Minister, by ignoring First Nations at the outset of the exploration process, the government is, in fact, slowing down mine development.

Once again, from November 8: “The crown is obligated to ensure that adequate consultation occurs.”

My simple question is, why are they still drilling?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: As part of the modernization of the Mining Act, we ensured that we inform any company of their duty to ensure that they have meaningful consultations with First Nations. We will continue to ensure that the modernization of the Mining Act’s implicit definition that duty to consult be adhered to takes place.

AIDS TREATMENT

Ms. Helena Jaczek: My question is for Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. One of the most significant events during our lifetime has been the spread of HIV/AIDS and how it has affected millions of people across our planet.

Speaker, today is the 23rd annual World AIDS Day. I think we can all agree that the elimination of HIV/AIDS is of the utmost importance, and World AIDS Day is a great way to raise awareness of the struggle against this challenging virus.

In Ontario alone, this disease still affects far too many of our citizens. More than 26,000 Ontarians are living with HIV/AIDS in Ontario, and we see an estimated 1,600 new infections every year. We are fortunate that the treatment of the disease has improved immeasurably these past decades, but there’s so much more to do.

Mr. Speaker, would the minister tell us what the government is doing to support people living with AIDS in Ontario and how we are working to help prevent its spread to more Ontarians?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you to the member from Oak Ridges–Markham for this important question.

Today is World AIDS Day. Thirty years ago, the first patient was diagnosed with AIDS. Today is a day when we take time to remember those who have lost their lives due to AIDS. It’s also a time to look forward, to look at the progress we have made and to share our hope for a better future.

As we heard, more than 26,000 Ontarians are living with HIV/AIDS today, with an estimated 1,600 new infections every year. About 30% of people are in fact undiagnosed. That’s why we’re working very hard with the AIDS Bureau to support a large number of programs and initiatives targeted towards gay men, injection drug users, African, Caribbean and other populations at high risk.

Speaker, we’ve come a long way. More to do.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): There are no deferred votes, and I would like to ask our former parliamentarians if they miss this.

They don’t.

There are no deferred votes. This House stands recessed until 1 o’clock this afternoon.

The House recessed from 1140 to 1300.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Randy Hillier: I’d like to welcome to the Legislature today—they’ll be here in the public gallery a little later—residents from my riding, from Amherst Island. They’re here in support of our colleague’s bill this afternoon. They are members of Save Amherst Island and the Association to Protect Amherst Island, and I’ll just read a few of the names: Bruce and Bonnie Caughey, Janet Grace, Karen White, Hugh and Claire Jenney—quite a number of people here from Amherst Island to support this municipal restructuring—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you, member. Further introductions?

Mr. Rob Leone: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce Andrew Johnson, who is a constituent of mine. Welcome to the Legislature, Andrew.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

TIGER JEET SINGH FOUNDATION

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: The Tiger Jeet Singh Foundation was created by world-famous wrestling ambassador and philanthropist Tiger Jeet Singh and his son Tiger Jeet Singh, Jr., to raise awareness about human suffering and to support the needs of our schools and hospitals.

For the past two years, the foundation and Troy Newton, owner of Troy’s Diner in Milton, have hosted a December toy drive in support of Ontario’s children. In 2009 and 2010, the toy drive donated over 10,000 toys, and we are hoping to raise even more in 2011 in support of children at Halton’s Women’s Place, Toronto’s Hospital for Sick Children, McMaster Children’s Hospital and the Salvation Army.

The Tiger Jeet Singh Foundation and Troy’s Diner will be hosting the 2011 Troy’s Toy Drive. I’ll be joining Troy’s Diner and the Tiger Jeet Singh Foundation at the 2011 toy drive on December 19.

In support of Ontario’s children, I would like to encourage members of this chamber and people from across Ontario to donate to this praiseworthy event. I would also like to thank Tiger, Tiger and Troy for their continued work in support of Ontario’s children. Your dedication has made a difference to children in Halton and across Ontario, making Christmas a very special time both for those who give and for those who receive. Thank you.

COMMUNITY CENTRES

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Given the uncertainty facing many community centres in the city of Toronto today, I would like to take a few minutes to address the important role that these community hubs play in our neighbourhoods.

In my riding, we have two unique institutions: Scadding Court Community Centre and Harbourfront Community Centre. Last year, Harbourfront Community Centre alone welcomed almost 350,000 visitors and offered over 1,800 programs to neighbourhood residents. This is an outstanding feat for any organization, let alone one so dependent upon grants and fundraising. Yet both the HCC and Scadding Court continue to offer these services in a proven, cost-effective way.

Incredibly, their programming is currently at risk. The proposed 10% cut to Toronto’s community partnership will seriously hamper the ability of these institutions to play an important community role. There’s no longer any excess to excise. Losing these centres would mean the end of vital social programs, such as after-school camps, snack programs for children, and programming for the elderly.

I urge the MPPs sitting here today, the mayor of Toronto and Toronto city councillors to recognize the inherent value of community centres. I call on the citizens of Toronto to contact their elected officials and demand better for their neighbourhoods. We cannot afford to lose the valuable services offered by our neighbourhood centres. Thank you.

JOURNÉE MONDIALE DU SIDA /

WORLD AIDS DAY

M. Shafiq Qaadri: Comme un médecin et aussi un député, j’ai le plaisir aujourd’hui d’attirer l’attention de cette Assemblée à la lutte contre le VIH/SIDA. Nous devons ensemble intensifier nos efforts pour éliminer le VIH/SIDA.

As a physician and parliamentarian, I feel duty-bound to recognize in the House today the 23rd annual worldwide AIDS Day.

Today, Speaker, more than 26,000 Ontarians live with HIV, and we see an estimated 1,600 new infections every year. That’s why our government remains committed to helping those living with HIV/AIDS by providing community services and supporting org