Manitoba Hansard — 20 May 1997 (Sitting 47, 36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-47

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Ofticial Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 47-1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 20,1997

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim Charleswood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P.

MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie. Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C.

TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Ross mere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Portage Ia Prairie

2927 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 20, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Ethel Lungal, Verna Kieper, Joyce Gray and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Dispense.

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast

WHEREAS a trip to and from these centres for a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost for some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Commi ttee of Supply Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Chair person of the Comm ittee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic I move, seconded by the honourable member for proportions; and Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received.

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended for women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman feels Motion agreed to. she is at risk; and

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us this afternoon nine visitors from the CFB Language Training Centre under the direction of Sergeant Rob Chilton. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine).

2928 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 Additionally, we have fifteen Grade 4 students from Richard School under the direction of Mrs. Jocelyn Benoit. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan). Also, twenty-one Grade 3 students from the Pinkham School under the direction of Mr. Ed Desjarlais. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flood Forecasting Staffing Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I understand, after having major disagreements with the federal government over the last three years, that today the Prime Minister will be announcing a flood compensation policy and package for the province of Manitoba. We are delighted to see this interest in the flood situation in this province, and we look forward to the details of the announcement of the Prime Minister.

It has been indicated to us that the provincial government is putting forward a plan to the federal government, and we certainly would know some of those elements of that plan, having debated them in this Legislature on prior occasions. I would like to ask the Premier: Can he table Manitoba's position to the federal government in the Chamber, and can he indicate whether we have had any positive movement on the layoffs of flood forecasting staff which are scheduled to take place on August 1, 19 97? *

(1335) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his question, and I would indicate to him that ever since the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura) and I signed the federal-provincial agreement on the 19 97 flood damages compensation in Manitoba with Mr. Axworthy, Mr. Young and Mr. Gerrard on the 1s t of May, officials have been working towards an agreement, towards an enunciation of the agreement that would lay out the various elements of it.

We have put forward a package that has been agreed to at the officials level of some $270 million. Its basic elements include flood prevention and flood proofing, a business compensation element, an agricultural compensation and reconstruction element and a technical co-operation element, and I will table the letter that I sent to the Prime Minister yesterday that outlines these elements. I can say that we are not certain as to what the Prime Minister intends to do today when he meets with municipal officials, whether he will be in a position to confirm that.

I know that he was aware--certainly, through officials, he would have been aware for some time as to the recommendations that were put forward, but at the same time-! have an extra copy here if the Clerk would like to give this one directly to the Leader of the Opposition for his purposes while the other is being registered-it remains to be seen as to whether or not the Prime Minister will be discussing this program clarification or whether he has other agenda items that he wants to discuss with the municipal officials later today, so that is all I can say at this point. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, 1 understand the press conference and meeting is to take place at the Air Command. Hopefully we can get a reversal on the 762 jobs we lost there, too, but hope springs eternal in these times, these coincidental times in terms of positive announcements, potentially positive announcements. Disaster Assistance Deductible Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I was pleased to see-a couple of weeks ago we raised three issues that really followed from feedback we received in '95 a bit and a lot more in '96 about the flood victims last year on compensation, and we did some research, as the Premier knows, on the updates that had taken place in other provinces on flood compensation and disaster compensation. The limit has been raised, and we applaud the government for raising - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2929 that limit from $30,000 to $1 00,000, consistent with many other provinces. We had also asked about the municipal share and were pleased the government has today announced that they are dropping that from 1 0 percent to 5 percent. Particularly for communities like Ritchot and other communities, that will present a real threat to their taxpayers, and, of course, other communities in the past in the Parkland region and in forest fires have also gone through similar situations.

We have also raised the issue of the deductible, and I asked the Premier to look at the Alberta policy on deductibles and in light of the depreciation policies. Has he had a chance to look at that, and what is the current status of that situation of a 20 percent deductible for individuals affected by this flood? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I just want to clarify for the benefit of the Leader of the Opposition that the municipal share remains at 10 percent with a maximum of 5 percent of the municipality's annual budget, which will ensure that there is not a massive requirement on the part of individual municipalities. If it had remained at a total of I 0 percent, some of the municipalities such as Ritchot and perhaps even the R.M. of Morris might have been in dire financial circumstances. So this limits their exposure to 5 percent of their annual total municipal budget.

With respect to the issue of the deductibility, I remind the Leader of the Opposition that it was his government in 19 86 or '87, under then Minister Harry Harapiak, that changed the policy from a flat fee to a percentage. At that time, 25 percent of the costs were deductible and he, the New Democratic minister, Mr. Harapiak, said that it was in the interest of fairness that a deductible be implemented. That was the perspective that they had at that time, that perspective being based on the, of course, principle that there is some choice involved and that there is some decision making that people make.

He may also know that, in much of the area in which those subdivisions took place in the last decade or so where many of these homes that were the subject of flooding and dispute in the R.M. of Ritchot, those subdivisions were opposed by provincial representatives both in his government's day and in our government's day. Departments of Natural Resources, of Municipal Affairs, of Agriculture, in many cases, opposed those subdivisions for the very reason that they felt that they were in flood-prone areas and that this kind of situation could evolve.

So there is certainly some reason to accept the policy that was put forth by the New Democratic government, of which he was a part, that said that a deductible was a reasonable thing under these circumstances. * (1 340) Mr. Doer: The Premier will note-and there have been a lot of disasters lately, regrettably, in Manitoba, and there has been a Jot more experience with the impact of depreciation, which is applied differently now than before, and the deductible, and it does, for purposes of some people, provide a real hardship. People in Ste.

Agathe, I think some of them have resided, their families have resided there before Urban Affairs departments were created or Municipal Affairs departments perhaps were created. I am not sure, but a long time, at least. Madam Speaker, the Premier's Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura) said today that the door was open on the 20 percent deductible. Can the Premier explain-in his press serum he said that the door was open.

I think the public, who is trying to understand what the decision will be on deductible-can the Premier explain how far open is the door on the deductible, and what will that mean for a family who has to replace a five-year-old furnace in Ste. Agathe? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, what we have consistently said is that we continue to evaluate the circumstances that people are facing.

We continue to evaluate the losses that people are bearing, and we continue to evaluate the various sources from which relief can come, and that includes much of the funds that are being raised by various organizations, including the Red Cross, Salvation Army and so on. But I want to just correct him to ensure that he does not put on the record anything that may prove to be false with respect to what he says was a change in policy respecting the depreciated value.

This is the policy that was in effect-and I know he was quoting from it, but he was only quoting selectively, because this is the policy that was in effect under the New Democratic government that preceded us with respect

2930 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 to compensation for damages under emergency circumstances such as this. It has, under administrative guidelines, No. 10, Amount of Claims, quote, claims may not exceed the estimate of costs required to restore an item or facility to its immediate predisaster condition. That, of course, supersedes the

section that he had been quoting here in this House that talks about major appliances such as stoves and refrigerators which cannot be repaired are eligible; where such appliances can be repaired, cost of repair is eligible; luxury items such as sporting goods, stereos, luxury fur coats, et cetera, are not eligible for federal assistance. So, at all times, it was a policy of his administration that has continued on through our administration, that it was the depreciated value and not the new value that was the case. * (1 345) Mr.

Doer: We have talked to a lot of people that have applied the policies, and we are quite confident in what we are saying. I ask the Premier: The minister today said in the media serum that the door was open on deductibilities. Is the Premier saying in the House today that the door is open, or is he saying it is closed? Mr. Filmon: Well, as I said in the first part of my response, we continue to monitor and evaluate the circumstances that are being faced; we continue to look at the potential claims that are being put forward.

We have, obviously, estimates and figures that people are throwing out without having received bills and submissions. So it is not until we take a look at actual claims and actual circumstances that we are going to be able to refine any policy decisions more than we can today. Disaster Assistance Sandbag Removal Expenses Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the minister responsible for the Emergency Management Organization. As Manitobans are well aware, Scotia Street, for one area, engaged thousands and thousands of individuals to help place sandbags.

For example, on Scotia we estimate about 10,000 individuals assisted in placing almost a million bags over the course of about 15 days, but now the City of Winnipeg, for one municipality, is advising the homeowners to remove those bags and now.

My question for the minister is: In light of the application under the emergency systems program, which includes little tick-off areas for compensation for costs relating to sandbagging expenses and the cleanup of debris left by the disaster, can the minister tell the residents of Scotia Street and other residents of Manitoba whether the compensation scheme includes compensation for a homeowner who contracts privately for the removal of sandbags from property? Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, with regard to the disaster financial assistance policy with the erection of sandbag dikes and then the subsequent removal of those sandbag dikes, I would say to the honourable member, yes, this is eligible for disaster financial assistance.

Usually, when the calculation is done with regard to the removal of sandbags, they take a look at the entire size, the complexity of the job and the rates with regard to the cleanup and would indicate to the homeowner at that time what would be the total complexity of the job and what the rates would be for them to get their disaster financial assistance, but the simple answer is yes, they are eligible. Mr. Mackintos h: Would the minister, who has now said that these costs are eligible, reduce the risk and uncertainty to homeowners and say now what will be the amount of compensation?

Will it be dollar for dollar minus the 20 percent deductible, or how will the compensation be determined? They need to know before they enter into what could be very costly contracts with individuals. Mr. Pitura: Well, I think, Madam Speaker, that anybody who wants to contract for the removal of their sandbag dikes can probably get a great deal of guidance on this by contacting our staff in Emergency Management Organization. Two people I would suggest that could be contacted would be Joe Masi or Mel Nott, our chief claims inspector, for details on that. People can also call our emergency operations centre, - \

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 293 1 too. for clarification as well. If somebody is hiring a contractor for the removal of sandbags, it would seem reasonable that the rates that the contractor would be charging would be competitive with those on any other job, and that is the only really basic criterion that they have to follow in terms of getting this job done. * (1 350) Mr. Mackinto sh: Would the minister clarify more what appears to be more a loosey-goosey kind of arrangement for individuals?

Given that the guideline binder that was provided says that assistance may also be paid to individuals for cleaning up their own property as determined by the Emergency Management Organization, would the minister tell us, in that case, how is the level of compensation decided on? How, in fact, do individual homeowners get compensated for their own work? Mr.

Pitura: Madam Speaker, if an individual wishes to do their own cleanup with regard to the sandbag dikes, it is in the policy, I believe, that, where they are doing their own work at cleanup, in regard to the hourly wage, it is based on minimum wage, and they would also estimate the number of hours, reasonable hours, that it would take. The equipment costs and usually the equipment that is used in cleanup of sandbag dikes would be at rates of those not exceeding the Manitoba Highways and Transportation rates. Grace Hospital Obstetric Services Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): Madam Speaker, my question, through you, to the Minister of Health relates to the Grace Hospital. This government has shut down the recently renovated obstetric ward at the Misericordia Hospital, and now we learn the obstetric ward at the Grace Hospital is also being eliminated. This leaves no options for the families and the women in the west end, Wolseley, St. James, Assiniboia and Charleswood areas.

Can the minister explain: Since the rationale for the construction of the new Charleswood Bridge was to allow the people from southwest Winnipeg across the Assiniboine River to reach the Grace Hospital, why is this government now closing this ward which is important to those very people? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I do not know if the member for St. James has had an opportunity to follow this question last week when it was the subject of questions by her colleague the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) and Health critic.

As I indicated at that time, the board of directors of the Grace Hospital passed a resolution recommending the closure of this particular ward. Last week, in receiving that resolution, we asked that they not carry forward with it and that this issue be placed with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority so that they can fit in, as they have to make decisions about obstetrical care for the entire city-b e placed in its proper context.

So we have asked that the Grace Hospital not proceed with that particular decision of its board or recommendation of its board for some time until it can be placed in a proper context which may not result, quite frankly, in the closure of that facility. It might, in fact, result in its enhancement.

We have asked that, and currently we are working with them and with the Health Sciences Centre which may be able to provide some of the additional services that they require to be able to remain open in place, as it takes several months obviously for that to happen, for those types of reviews and decisions by Winnipeg Hospital Authority to take place. So quite the opposite. We are sharing with her the same concern. Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, it is indeed good and somewhat reassuring to hear the minister talk about the Grace remaining open.

Will the minister please tell us how long he can guarantee the families that the obstetric wards at the Grace Hospital will remain open? How long can we count on those wards being open? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I am not in a position to guarantee anything today, but, you know, the really serious debate in health care today is a lot about how we organize and govern the system. We currently have the hospital wards, which we fund as institutions, and, yes, I admit, Manitoba Health has a lot to do with their decision making, but the board of directors at Grace has made a recommendation.

Now, Madam Speaker, we have a lot of issues to look at in obstetrics, as her colleague has rightly pointed out. There have been a lot of studies, lots of information, lots of work that has been done in that area. There are

2932 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 conflicting points of view. I get them regularly, as the Minister of Health, being presented to me.

What I want to make sure happens again in this process is that the Winnipeg Hospital Authority which has, will have as of April 1 of next year, I believe, the authority to make these decisions with respect to programming and has the time to consider the recommendation of the board of governors or board of directors of Grace Hospital in its proper context to ensure that we do not have a decision made today which is going to have to be reversed in a number of months. It is going to take them until the fall, quite frankly, to be in a position to make that kind of decision. * (1 355) Ms.

Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, my final question to the minister: Will the minister personally take the leadership role and ensure that community hospitals and choices are available for the citizens in the west end, Charleswood, Wolseley, St James areas? Will you take the leadership and ensure that the facilities remain open? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I note the parochialism of the member for St. James, because the real question is not the services to one particular part of the city or the province.

It is to ensure that we have an obstetrical program that can account for 12 ,000 births a year in the whole city and has, as I have discussed with her colleague the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), the right balance between having specialty services and high-risk births and community hospitals. Within that particular mix, each facility-the Winnipeg Hospital Authority is going to have to look at what is the best way to deliver that program for 12 ,000 births in the city of Winnipeg.

The case that she makes may be a very strong one, and I want to make sure that is not pre-empted by a premature decision of the board at Grace. We are working with them now to ensure that does not happen. Grace Hospital Obstetric Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is also for the Minister of Health. Madam Speaker, the government's own Action Plan clearly demonstrates that, in fact, the community hospitals do have a larger role to play in any sort of health care reform.

The recommendation that is being put forward by the Grace Hospital currently works at 18 0 degrees from what we believe is important in terms of community health care. My question to the Minister of Health is: Does the Minister of Health concur that obstetrics can and should be a part of the basic services for our community hospital at the Grace location? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we discussed this last week. I have been discussing it in questions from the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). We have about 12 ,000 births a year in the city of Winnipeg.

I am told that the number that experts recommend for a facility is somewhere, a minimum. between 2.000 and 2,500. The Grace fell below that number. So obviously one of the challenges for the new Winnipeg Hospital Authority, in adjusting the whole obstetrics program, is to en�ure, wherever those sites are-and the Grace may very well likely be a site-that they have enough practice going on in that area to reach those kinds of numbers that make for a very viable facility. Those are decisions and those are considerations that we would like the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to make. As I indicated to the member for St.

James, in speaking with Gordon Webster today, he would expect that he would not be in a position to do that till the fall. and we would hope that he would have sufficient time to do a proper job of it. Mr. Lamoureux: Will the Minister of Health acknowledge that. at our teaching hospitals, there are services that are there such as obstetrics that could in fact be done in our community hospitals and make a political statement to the degree in which this government is prepared to ensure that obstetrics will continue in the long term at the Grace Hospital?

In fact, the government should be looking at expanding it to include the Seven Oaks Hospital. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, as I have indicated, from the numbers that I have seen, we have about 12 ,000 births a year in the city of Winnipeg. Our - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2933 people advise that somewhere around 2,000, 2,500 births a year is the right number, minimum number to maintain a particular facility, and that is one of the considerations that the Winnipeg Hospital Authority will have to look at. They will also have to look at demographics in terms of where those mothers are coming from in the city.

There are changes in population from region to region within the city of Winnipeg over time, and we certainly want to keep flexibility in that system so that it is one that services the needs of the people of Winnipeg, and that is what I would like to achieve. Madam Speaker, what is very interesting is what makes this possible is a Winnipeg Hospital Authority, which the member opposed just a few months ago. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, in response to the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk), the minister gives the impression that he is in fact going to wait till the Winnipeg Health Authority makes a decision.

Does that then mean that the Minister of Health will guarantee to the Grace Hospital that obstetrics will continue at least until fall? Because that is when he, himself. has indicated is the earliest possible time that the regional health authority can actually make a decision. Will he give that guarantee today so individuals who came to the front of the Legislature-a pregnant woman would in fact be able to have her baby born at that hospital? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I wish the member for Inkster would get it right.

The recommendation to close obstetrics is not coming from the Minister of Health, it is not coming from me as minister. It is coming from the board of directors at the Grace Hospital and for a variety of reasons, some of them which are a problem for Grace, that they have lost one of their leading obstetricians. They have some issues around a declining number of births and the ef ficiency of running that particular facility at less than 1,10 0 births a year. They have some real problems with that. * (1 400) We are certainly taking the view here that we do not want them to follow through on that decision.

We do not want the board to close the obstetric wards at Grace. We want the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to work through their plan for obstetrics through the city. I have convened, through my deputy, a meeting with the Health Sciences Centre that have resources they are prepared to work through to provide. 1 want to make sure that the Winnipeg Hospital Authority has enough time to make a proper decision, whether it be September, October, November, whenever. They have to have enough time, and that is what I want to see happen. Grace Hospital Obstetric Services Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, in all the ramblings of the Minister of Health this morning and the questions I have listened to and the answers, I am not sure if the Minister of Health is in favour of the Grace ward staying open, in favour of closing, in favour of the Winnipeg regional boards or not, and that is part of the problem. Was it parochial when the previous Minister of Health said he would keep the Grace open? Was it parochial when Fr ank Manning recommended that Grace stay open?

My question to the Minister of Health: If the Minister of Health wishes the public to believe his comments about supporting the Grace remaining open, will the minister commit today that the Province of Manitoba will provide the proper funding and support resources to ensure that Grace Hospital will stay open, the very promise that was made by the former Minister of Health not that long ago? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the question that the member for Kildonan puts, in my opinion, underlines many of the problems and difficulties we have with managing our health care system.

What I have said and what I think we are very much committed to is letting the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, that we are charging with organizing services on a city-wide basis, to have the time in this transition year to do proper planning in how they wish to deliver obstetrics, heart surgery, a host of other programs throughout this particular system. They have to have an opportunity to study the issue and come up with a rational and reasonable plan that works for delivering obstetric services in the city of Winnipeg. I believe we

2934 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 will support that plan when it is developed, but it is their responsibility, and we want to make sure they have time to carry it forward. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, how can we have any confidence that the new, new plan- there must be at least six new versions of the plan- will have any chance of success when it was just a year ago when the former Minister of Health stood up and said that Grace would stay open, that Victoria would stay open, that Seven Oaks would stay open with their primary and secondary services?

Now we have a new plan where some board that is not elected, that has no legislative authority-it has been appointed-is somehow going to make this plan. Why should we believe this minister? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I am not sure which board the member is referring to, because the board at the Grace Hospital is not elected by the public. They are not even appointed by a member of the Executive Council who sits in this Legislature who is responsible for the vast amount of money that is spent in that hospital.

So to use that as some kind of argument against the Winnipeg Hospital Authority I think is very unfair and does not contribute to the debate. The fact of the matter is, a great deal of work has been done, and there have been many versions of the plan about how we deliver obstetrics. Yes, the Grace obviously has something to offer. That is why they provide obstetrics today, as does Victoria Hospital. What we are suggesting is that a very rational approach be developed by the people who on April I of next year will be responsible for this system.

I think that is a fair way to approach this, and that is what we are intending to do. Mr. Chomiak: How can the minister talk about the development of a new, new plan? When the minister conducted a study, obstetric services in urban Winnipeg, a strategic plan for reorganization for the 19 90s and beyond, which recommended that Grace stay open on the basis that Misericordia was going to be closed, and the justification for the closure of Misericordia, one of the justifications was that Grace would remain open. How can they now talk about a new plan and have any credibility? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, the former minister reminds me from his seat that that was a third option in the recommendation, but beside the point. If there is a very-[ interjection] Madam Speaker, I just ask for some calm to listen to the answer. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Praznik: If there is, and I would agree there are some very logical solid arguments for a future role for the Grace, those are going to work into the considerations and deliberations of the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. We do know a number of things. We have a problem at the Grace today because of the departure of a particular obstetrician.

We know that we have a declining number of births in that facility. So. in real practical terms, the Winnipeg Hospital Authority has to look at their obstetrical program from a point of view that is going to ensure that they have enough obstetricians serving the facilities where they are located and that they are using them to their utmost in having enough births there, and how do they make that happen. That is part of the work that they have to do. It is not just a matter of approving money for a facility that is underutilized.

It is making sure it is properly utilized. and that is what we want to do in a rational and fair way. Concordia Hospital Job Description-Unit Assistant Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, it is this government that is ultimately responsible for changes at Grace HospitaL like they are ultimately responsible for changes at Concordia Hospital. Yesterday. May 19 . staff changes were to be implemented at Concordia Hospi tal where all 19 5 nurses and clerical staff were laid of f and all the 43 licensed practical nurses' positions were eliminated.

Now these people have to reapply for their positions, including 12 new unit assistant positions. I want to ask the Minister for Health: Is the minister aware of the new job description for the unit assistants which require these staff, who were formerly clerk typists, to perform such duties as patient transfers, making of beds with patients in them, assisting nurses in the patient hygiene, patient nutrition, patient - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2935 elimination and transport, assisting during emergencies, assisting in the care of a body after death? Has the minister seen these job descriptions, and can he tell us the impact on safety of having clerical typists perform these types of duties? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, no, I have not seen those. I suggest she direct her question to the board of Concordia Hospital which is responsible for today governing that facility. You cannot have it both ways.

You cannot be supporting the current system that has that level of governance and then hoping to hold this minister or any minister in government responsible for every minute operation of those facilities. Those particular facilities make even the argument for their continued corporate governance. Let them accept responsibility for their decisions. Ms. Cerilli: Is this minister saying that he and his department have not approved these changes to health care delivery at Concordia Hospital?

Can he tell us that he has not assessed the impact on patient care of having clerk-typists essentially provide nursing care for patients at Concordia Hospital when they have only had eight hours of training, including, what I have a copy of, Concordia Hospital Patient Transf ers, a Self Learning Package? What is the impact going to be on patient care of these staff changes? *(1410 ) Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, what is very interesting about this is, with respect to a number of the current boards of facilities in the city of Winnipeg, they make the argument very strongly with me on a regular basis.

The Interfaith Council, of which Concordia is a member, make the argument that they are responsible for governance in their facilities. They would like to make those decisions, so, Madam Speaker, they have made those decisions. Let them answer to the member for those decisions. Funding Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I would like for the Minister of Health to tell the House what the budget cut has been to Concordia Hospital so he can show that his budget cuts are driving these changes, what is putting the safety of patients and staf f at the hospital at risk. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the exchange that the member for Radisson and I are having in this series of questions underlines a fundamental issue in our health care system that is not budgets; it is what level of how do we organize the governance structure of our facilities. I can tell the honourable member time and time again how many requests we have for equipment- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to complete his response. Mr.

Praznik: -f rom that facility, and when you meet with the physicians who use that equipment, what you discover is, it is not a budget issue; it is how we organize the equipment, because this government has always found the money for services when a strong case could be made across the system. We will do it, but we cannot-no government can-consider individual requests from facilities when other parts of the system are underutilized. This is what regionalization is about, and this, we be lieve, is what will solve many of those problems. Man Globe Partnership Agreement Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier. Last week I asked the Deputy Premier what the approval process was for grants under the Canada Manitoba Communications Agreement, who represe nted the federal government and who represented Manitoba. The minister indicated that Steven Leahey acted for the province, but he has refused to tell us who acted for the federal government. Would he quit sitting on this information and tell this House who the federal representatives were?

2936 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I am not sitting on the information. I said as soon as I had it available, I would provide it to the member and I will. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE Commu nity Obstetrics Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the member for St. Boniface (Mr.

Gaudry), that under Rule 27 the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the threat to community obstetrics posed by this government. Motion presented. Madam Speaker: Firstly, today I would like to inform the House that the notice requirement for this matter was met. Mr. Lamoureux: It is with regret that we have to introduce this particular motion, which we attempted to get on the floor last Thursday, because we believe that it is indeed of a most urgent basis and it is, indeed, in the public's best interest that we do allow for this debate to occur.

Even in listening to the Minister of Health's (Mr. Praznik) response today in Question Period, there is a lot of uncertainty as to what is actually happening over at the Grace Hospital with respect to the obstetrics unit. The Minister of Health today states that, look, we are not going to recommend the closing of that obstetrics unit or concur with the closing of the obstetrics unit at least until we get a recommendation from the regional health board in Winnipeg.

Well, Madam Speaker, you know earlier today, I was at a rally at which there was an expectant mother who was wanting to have her child at the Grace Hospital and who is being told that now she has to look for another health care facility. So what we have is a lot of people out there within the public who are not sure whether or not they are going to be having the opportunity to have their child at the hospital. That issue in itself could give justification to allowing the urgency of this particular debate.

There are staff over at the facility that are questioning whether or not they themselves are going to be continuing on, if they in fact should be applying for other obstetrics positions throughout Winnipeg. There is a great deal of apprehension in the communities that are directly impacted with respect to this particular recommendation. The only way in which we are going to be able to see that apprehension dealt with is if we get direction from this government. The government has been very reluctant to give any sort of direction.

It has been more content on trying to offload its responsibility in giving that direction to the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. which does not even have the legal mandate as of yet to deal with this particular issue in a concrete, tangible way. For us. it is the broader picture that needs to be looked at, does the government believe in community health care facilities. If the answer to that is yes, Madam Speaker. then it is urgent that the Minister of Health take a position with respect to the obstetrics in delivering of obstetrics programs.

The Action Plan itself talks about the importance of community health facilities. What I would ultimately argue is that the obstetrics program is something that can be delivered through our community health care facilities. Madam Speaker: Order. please. I would remind the honourable member for Inkster that he was recognized to speak for not more than five minutes on the urgency of debating the motion today. According to Beauchesne Citation 390. urgency in this context means the immediate urgency of debate. not of the subject matter of the motion. * (1 420) Mr.

Lamoureux: In order to understand the urgency of the matter, one has to realize the apprehension that is out there in the community as a result of this government's lack of commitment in terms of making a good decision dealing with the obstetrics and how obstetrics is going to be delivered in the city of Winnipeg. -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2937 Madam Speaker, if you take a look at what is before us, there are very strong limitations in terms of what it is that will allow for this type of debate to occur. The government will argue, the government House leader will say we are going into the health care Estimates. There is no doubt that we will be going into government Health Estimates, but we do not necessarily know when. The line of discussion could-or the line, depending on the Minister of Health's own will, will determine just how or when we are going to be able to address that particular issue.

Madam Speaker, the apprehension is there today. The only assurance that we can get in addressing that issue today is by allowing this particular debate to occur. Other members in this Chamber, including myself, have used my grievance so I cannot stand up on a grievance to address this particular issue. What we are talking about is the broader picture of whether or not this government believes in community health care facilities, and that is why we believe that the Minister of Health and the government House leader should support the need for this urgent debate. Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to urge you to deal with this emergency resolution and, that indeed, it is an urgent matter. What we see here is a clear Jack of leadership, and what is needed urgently is exactly that, leadership, something we have not seen from the government. In particular for those families who are expecting a new child, this is not something to be played with. They are making plans now. It is only four months before their children are born.

Are they going to be born at the Graee H-ospital or are they going to be forced into the Health Sciences Centre because there are no options in the west end, St. James Assiniboia, Charleswood areas? This government needs to take leadership now. What other opportunities are there? We are not in Health Estimates. We do not have that opportunity. It is urgent that we deal with this issue here in the House to give the people of Winnipeg a clear resolution to this crisis. Madam Speaker, the urgency is cl ear to those families who are expecting a child.

For those members on the other side of the House, none of them, I think, are expecting a child, but there are thousands of families who are, and on behalfof those families I urge the government to consider the situation. Are they going to have an opportunity to have their child in the local community hospital in a setting that is warm and inviting or are they going to be moved on the spur of the moment to the Health Sciences or St. Boniface?

I urge the government to consider this resolution in the urgency, given that we are not in Health Estimates, we do not have the opportunity of private members' hour, so therefore it is indeed an urgent matter. The uncertainty has come to the public forefront, and it is clear that what is urgent is a clear message from the Minister of Health that the obstetrics ward in the Grace Hospital will remain open for a clear, defined period of time. Madam Speaker, the urgency is there.

The arguments are presented by both the member who presented the resolution, and I would urge on behalf of the members that represent the ridings in St. James and the west end and Wolseley, Assiniboia, Sturgeon Creek, for all of those people in the west St. James part of the city, this is an urgent matter, and I urge the House to deal with this today. Thank you. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I listened intently to the eloquent remarks made by both the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and the honourable member for St. James (Ms.

Mihychuk) on this extremely important topic. It has been a matter of interest and animated debate for a number of years in Manitoba. The whole idea that somehow today represents a more urgent situation than we have already seen does not characterize the situation correctly at all.

Madam Speaker, this issue was raised last week by the honourable member for Inkster and at that time, while Your Honour ruled that he had not met the proper requirements for debate on this, I argued at that time, that notwithstanding that, the issue of urgency for debate today in the House, the case for that has not been appropriately made. The issues today are no different from what they were last week, nor different from what they were a few months ago. The honourable Minister of Health (Mr.

Praznik) has made it clear the priority that he and his department place on the whole issue of obstetrics, and that is not new in Manitoba. In fact, that is borne out, the priority

2938 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 placed on obstetrics is borne out by the report, referred to earlier by the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), by one Dr. Frank Manning who points out in that report, Madam Speaker, that nowhere in the world can the prospective parents go that is safer than the city of Winnipeg for obstetric services. So obviously the department, previous ministers, previous administrations, everybody in Manitoba places the right priority on this particular issue.

So the issue does resolve itself into a matter of whether the urgency is sufficient to justify an emergency debate in this House, and clearly what I would say today would be no different from what I said last week and that is that there are ample oppor tunities for discussion of this topic. Estimates are here or just around the comer. As I said, I think last week, as House leader I am always available to discuss these matters with my opposite numbers in the other parties with respect to the scheduling. This has been a matter of co-operation all along, the scheduling of our Estimates process, and it is working.

But I say we are not going to discard what Dr. Manning said about Winnipeg being the safest place in the world for obstetrics services. We are not going to let that go by the boards in our future determination about the appropriate places and levels of obstetrics services. I think the minister has laid out for honourable members, if they had been listening, that we pref er the planning approach to the ad hoc approach which is being suggested by honourable members in both opposition parties represented in this House.

Sometimes the ad hoc approach makes for better politics, I agree, but better long-term planning for obstetrics services does a better service for all Manitobans now and in the future. We are proud of what Dr.

Manning has said, and we want to make sure that is uppermost in our minds as we go forward, but to have a debate today on a matter that is clearly before all of the professionals not only in obstetrics but in the regional health authority system that we have now in the province of Manitoba and to substitute our judgment today for theirs would be inappropriate, No. 1, but to argue that there is no other option available but an emergency debate is simply not correct because there are ample opportunities between now and next fall or whenever these decisions will be forthcoming.

There are plenty of opportunities for honourable members opposite, for Manitobans out there who are interested, and I suggest that virtually every single Manitoban should be interested in this issue. There is ample opportunity for all to be heard before decisions get made. So, with all due respect to my colleague, who is right to be interested in this topic, as is the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) and my colleagues from Sturgeon Creek and from Assiniboia and from Kirkfield Park, everybody is interested in this matter and ought to be.

I suggest that the process that we have in place is a better process than any ad hoc approach being suggested by the opposition in this House. That is one of the things about being in the opposition: ad hockery is the order of the day: Madam Speaker: Order, please. Firstly, as I indicated earlier today. the notice requirement for this matter was met.

The Speaker's role when a matter of urgent public importance is put forward is, according to Manitoba practice and Beauchesne. to determine whether the matter is so pressing that the public interest will suffer if it is not given immediate attention and to judge whether the ordinary opportunities provided by the rules of the House do not permit the sub ject to be brought on early enough and the public interest demands that discussion take place immediately. While the honourable member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) brings forward an important matter. in my judgment the public interest will not be harmed if debate of this matter does not take place today. The Estimates of the Department of Health are upcoming, and I believe the issues raised by the honourable member for Inkster can be addressed at that time. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, in keeping with the agreement between the House leaders, I do not think it would be appropriate to have the bells ring but just to express that we do believe that the debate should have been allowed to proceed. * (1 430) NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Tom Jackson's Red River Relief Concer t Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositio n): May I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2939 Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Leader of the offici.al opposition have leave for a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Doer: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Again the generosity of Canadians from coast to coast to coast is pouring into the communities and the victims of the flood of 19 97. I want to congratulate- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

I am experiencing great difficulty hearing the Leader of the official opposition, and I would ask for the co-operation of all those members having private meetings to do so either in the loge or outside the Chamber. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate Tom Jackson for hosting a wonderful CBC Forks concert that was covered nationally from The Forks site in Winnipeg. Artists from across Canada performed at this concert.

As I understand it, it has raised over $2 million for flood victims in Manitoba, and I think, again, it is the spirit of Canada and the spirit of unity, the spirit of co-operation that we cherish in this Chamber. Again, congratulations to Tom Jackson for bringing it together and the CBC for covering it.

For those of us who used to watch Tom play at the Royal Albert Arms years ago, we can certainly applaud his wonderful career, his successful career, but whether it is this concert or the Huron concert, we know that he has continued to have his heart and mind in our community and for the people who are victims of disasters such as our flood or other victims of our economic system in terms of poverty and other issues that must be addressed by our community. I also want to applaud the United Way and the Winnipeg Labour Council.

There have been a number of corporate donations that have received some publicity, but it might be useful for all of us to applaud the efforts of unions that have been raising money, as well, from across Canada. Buzz Hargrove for the Canadian Auto Workers Union has donated $1 25,000 from the auto workers, and he has challenged the auto makers to also come in on this campaign, and I applaud the membership here in Manitoba and the workers of that union. The Canadian Labour Congress, Dick Martin, a member of our community from Manitoba, a good friend of the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey), the secretary-treasurer of the Canadian Labour Congress, donated $3,000 and helped sandbag in Selkirk, Manitoba. Thank you for the Canadian Labour Congress-[inter jection] more than one sandbag, I would add-and Dick Martin, of course, it was good to see him help us out. The Canadian Union of Postal Workers, Local 522, has donated to the United Way of Winnipeg through the Winnipeg Labour Council. The IW A, Local 324, in The Pas and 830 in Winnipeg have donated $2,500. We would like to thank the members of those local unions.

IWA, Local 71, Courtenay, British Columbia, $2,800 raised by the workers in that union; the Grain Services Union in Regina, $5,50 0 raised on behalf of flood victims. Also, we have the United Steelworkers of America, the national office, Ken Neumann, the vice-president from western Canada, a person who represents many of the workers in the steelworkers' union and the miners in the steelworkers', has donated a tremendous amount of money to Manitoba flood victims, $90,000.

We would like to thank those unions and locals and workers for joining other Canadians in donating this money to flood victims in Manitoba and in working with the United Way and with the Winnipeg Labour Council to co-ordinate their efforts. So thank you very much for allowing me to give this nonpolitical statement today. Flooding- Volunteerism Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Norbert have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr.

Laurendeau : Madam Speaker, I have been away from this establishment now for a little while working in my community. I actually missed the place, but I do recognize a lot of faces that were out on the front lines

2940 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 with us, and I would like to thank the members who filled in for me here for my duties that I have been lacking of in the past 30 days or so. It has just proved that I am replaceable in the Chamber, so I figured I had better start coming back. Madam Speaker, I do not think there is any way to say thank you that would express how I and my community feel on the volunteer effort that has come out in the past while to help not only my community but the rest of Manitoba to fight back Mother Nature.

We had one gentleman there and we called him the very old gentleman on our line. It was Binx Remnant, the Clerk of our Legislative Assembly. Madam Speaker, it is not nice to pick out one person out of the thousands and thousands, but this gentleman . sat there for eight hours a day. We felt sorry for him at the end of the day. We tried to get him to retire, but same as in here, we just cannot seem to get him to do it. He is still around, so we keep having him come out over and over again.

It is the corporations that the Leader of the official opposition has spoken about; it is the youth that have come out; it is the unions that have come out; it is the members in this Chamber that have come out. It is everyone who has been involved since Day One that we all owe more than a thank you to but just a congratulations on a job well done. Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you personally for having taken my place more than once in this Chamber when I was not here. Thank you to all of you and thank you to Manitobans. This proves why we will remain a o ne and united Canada. Committee Changes Mr.

George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move. seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) for Selkirk (Mr. Gregory Dewar), The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), for Thursday, May 22, 19 97, for 10 a.m. Motion agreed to. Mr. Hickes: I move, seconded by the member for Broadway, that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) for Thompson (Mr. Ashton); Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans) for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli); Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) for Burrows (Mr. Martindale); for Thursday, May 22. 19 97, for 10 a.m. Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I have a number of matters of House business for the attention of honourable members . Firstly, I would seek leave of the House that the House not sit on Friday, May 23 . * ( 14 40) Madam Speaker: Is there leave that the House not sit on Friday, May 23? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: Secondly. that on Thursday, May 22, the House sit at I 0 a.m. commencing with the Prayers. to consider bills, recess at 12 noon. resume at 1 :30 for Routine Proceedings and Supply and adjourn at 6 p.m. Madam Speaker: Is there leave that on Thursday, May 22, the House sit at 10 a.m. commencing with the Prayers, to consider bills, recess at noon. resume at 1 :30 for Routine Proceedings and Committee of Supply and adjourn at 6 p.m.? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: Third. that for the period of May 20 to May 22, 19 97, any recorded votes requested in the House, in the standing committees or in the Committee of Supply be deferred until a time agreed upon by the House leaders. In this connection, in relation to what happened this afternoon with respect to the application brought by the honourable member for Inkster, I wish to thank him, his colleagues and members of the New Democratic Party as well for the accommodation they made. - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 294 1 Madam Speaker: Is there leave that for the period of May 20 to May 22, any recorded votes requested in the House, in the standing committees or in the Committee of Supply be deferred until a time agreed upon by the House leaders? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Fourth, that for the period May 20 to May 22, 19 97, the quorum requirement for the House, the Committee of Supply and the standing committees be waived.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave that for the period May 20 to May 22, the quorum requirement for the House, the Committee of Supply and the standing committees be waived? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Fifth, that for the period May 20 to May 22, 19 97, the number of members required to request a recorded vote be reduced to one. Madam Speaker: Is there leave that for the period May 20 to May 22, the number of members required to request a recorded vote be reduced to one? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: Sixth, to permit the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources to sit as already scheduled at 10 a.m. on Thursday, May 22, at the same time that the House is sitting. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to permit the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources to sit as already scheduled at 10 a.m. on Thursday, May 22, concurrently while the House is sitting? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Seventh, Madam Speaker, to waive private members' hour for the period May 20 to May 22.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to waive private members' hour for the period May 20 to May 22 inclusive? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, today and tomorrow the Committee of Supply wiJI meet in two sections, only because of previously scheduled meetings of the Privi leges and Elections subcommittee. Therefore, I am seeking leave of the House to adjust the Estimates sequence so that for today and tomorrow the

section meeting in the Chamber will consider the Estimates of Industry, Trade and Tourism, Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, and Justice, in that order, and the

section meeting in Room 255 wiJJ consider the Estimates of Labour, Civil Service Commission, Employee Benefits and Other Payments, Government Services, and Emergency Expenditures, in that order. Madam Speaker: Is there leave that there be two sections of the Committee of Supply because of previously scheduled meetings of the Privileges and Elections subcommittee-is there leave? [agreed] Is there leave to adjust the Estimates sequence so that for today and tomorrow the

section meeting in the Chamber will consider the Estimates of lndustry, Trade and Tourism, then Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, and Justice, and that the

section meeting in Room 255 will consider the Estimates of Labour, Civil Service Commission, Employee Benefits and Other Payments, Government Services, and Emergency Expenditures, in that order? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: Penultimately, Madam Speaker, an announcement that the Standing Committee on Economic Development, which is scheduled to meet in Room 255 on this coming Thursday at 10 a.m. to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation for the year ended March 31 , '93, and the Annual Reports of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation for the years ended March 31, '94, March 31, '95, and March 31, '96, that meeting would be rescheduled to June 12 , which I think is a Thursday, and that would be at ten o'clock in the forenoon and probably aJJ of the other details were similar.

It is simply a change of date for that one. Madam Speaker: That is just a notice. The Standing Committee on Economic Development, previously scheduled for this Thursday, 10 a.m., to consider the '95-96 reports of Manitoba Lotteries Corporation will be rescheduled to Thursday, June 12 . Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to.

2942 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) LABOUR Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section ofthe Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Labour. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 2. Labour Programs (

f) Workplace Safety and Health

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 10 0 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I believe, when we met last Thursday afternoon on the Estimates for the Department of Labour, I had been asking questions with the minister, and we were having some discussions with respect to the number of field inspectors and the number of firms that had been inspected. The minister, I believe, at that time had indicated that the department was targeting high-risk industries, businesses for specific attention of the Workplace Safety and Health branch.

At that time I believe the minister said he had some 33 field inspectors that were undertaking field activities. Can the minister provide for me a list of the names of the individuals that are involved in those field activities? Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): Yes, I recall we were discussing the issue and staffing with the Workplace Safety and Health branch, and we can provide my honourable friend with those names at another time. We do not have a copy of that for tabling today. Mr. Reid: Sure, that would be fine if the minister would provide that some time in the next week or so.

Could the minister tell me, in the Workplace Safety and Health branch, because he says that 95 percent of his time is spent on approximately 20,000 firms, I think if l recall accurately, first off the number of inspections that have been undertaken in total and what actions the department has taken, what they found with respect to noncompliance, the seriousness of the noncompliance should there be any, and what action the department has taken with respect to that? * (14 50) Mr. Gillesha mmer: I am informed that we do about 3,000 inspections per year and some 3,000 improvement orders are written up each year.

I think it is fair to say that the ultimate compliance is best achieved through discussion and education and having people within the workplace, whether they are in management or whether they are employees, understand the absolute need for safety and that issues can, in a co-operative manner, be resolved. Mr.

Reid: I do not disagree totally that education and a co-operative approach can have some effect in correct ing situations within worksites where there, perhaps, would be an oversight or through a lack of education people are not aware of a certain situation, and that needs to be drawn to the attention of both the employees and the management of a particular operation.

But I think we need to keep in mind, too, that there are, I am sure, some situations within the department where actions are not taken to correct, and I can point out just last fall when I was questioning the previous Minister of Labour with respect to the cave-in where the individual was trapped. I am sure the minister will recall the individual being trapped in that cave-in and nearly lost his life as a result of that particular cave-in.

That is why we raised it because education did not seem to be working with that particular company. and yet the apparent policy of the Workplace Safety and Health branch was that this company could close its doors one day and start operations the next day under a new company name, the same people. just transferring them over to a new company. Can you tell me what actions your department has taken with respect to that particular company where the individual was trapped in that cave-in? I think Unrau Construction is one of the company names. It is a public record already. That name is on public record.

What actions has the department taken with respect to that particular company or companies, I should say, because there are many that were involved under the same owner's name? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I want to agree with my honourable friend. I spent most of my working life in education as a school teacher and school administrator - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2943 and even with the best of teachers and instructors, we certainly always knew that the absorption of the material was not accepted universally and sometimes remedial tactics had to be used. In the particular case that the critic here is referencing, I am informed that a substantial fine was levied against the company. Mr. Reid: Can the minister provide for me a copy of the names of the firms?

I am not saying that he has to put it on public record here today, but I have asked this in past Estimates. where the department has provided a list of the names of the firms that are involved with respect to court action under The Workplace Safety and Health Act and what occurred as a result of those actions. Can you also tell me and provide for me a list or information relating to recommendations you may have made to the Department of Justice with respect to other cases involving violations under The Workplace Safety and Health Act that did not proceed to the courts? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I would commit to providing any information that we can legally provide and any information that has not been received in a confidential nature and that we are not able to provide to him. If there are statistics available within the department, and I believe there probably are, we can make those available to the member. Mr. Reid: Can you define for me "legally able to provide" so I might have a clearer understanding on what you can and cannot provide to me? Mr. Gilleshammer: I did not come here as a lawyer.

I would just say, if there is anything that we legaliy cannot provide, obviously we are going to abide by that, if there is information that the courts have indicated is not public information or information that would violate any of our legislation that may be lodged in the department. But I am saying that I would be quite open with any of the information that has historically and tra ditionally been provided at these committee meetings. Mr.

Reid: What I am seeking here-maybe it will help the minister because I am seeking some kind of an understanding on-because some of your cases that would have proceeded through the Justice department and into the courts would have been undertaken as a result of a director's order not being followed. I would imagine that would be the process, although if I am wrong, you can correct me.

What I am also looking for here is information relating to cases that you may have sent to the Justice department that for some reason or other may not have been proceeded upon after the Justice department had an opportunity to look at those cases, and I am looking for some information in that regard as well. Mr. Gilleshammer: Again, I would commit to providing any information that is deemed public documents that we are able to comply with. Mr. Reid: And I would take it that would be all directors' orders? Mr . Gilleshammer: I am told that we can provide that. Mr.

Reid: Can the minister tell me-and I look forward to that information coming forward-after a field officer undertakes an inspection and after the process of trying to educate and to encourage employees or employers to undertake certain actions to improve the safe working conditions, what is the action time, should it be a very serious offence, between a field officer reporting that information to the branch and to a director's order being issued to improve the safety of a particular workplace? Mr. Gillesh ammer: I am told that if it is a serious offence the order is given immediately. Mr.

Reid: And in other situations, what would be the standard practice of the department with respect to issuing orders for improvement? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that when that workplace inspection is done, before the staff member leaves the worksite, the order is written up and signed and discussed with both the employee and employer reps at that time. I am told the only exceptions to that is where there is some ongoing work that is not of an urgent nature, but work that is ongoing perhaps to redesign the workplace, where there is a co-operative

2944 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 effort in place, a willingness to change, the work is ongoing and it is simply going to take a little longer. Mr.

Reid: Can the min ister tell me when he brought forward his legislation-I am not going to get into the specifics ofthe legislation itself in this question-did he consider following the B.C. practice which would allow the field of ficers the opportunity to undertake through an immediate action where there had been a stubbornness on the part of a particular employer or employee to improve workplace safety, to allow those field officers to undertake or to have the power to ticket on those particular situations?

Was that a consideration, or did the minis ter just take the advisory committee's recommendations which he has indica ted that he had to some degree when he brought forward his legislation, because there may have been another opportunity or option available to him that is in current practice in other jurisdictions? I would like to know which consid erations, what options he looked at. * (1 500) Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr.

Chairman. certainly all aspects of issues around workplace safety and health were reviewed by the advisory council, and they in tum brought a unanimous recommendation back to the department to increase the fines by tenfold. I stress again that this was a unanimous recommendation ofthe individuals on that particular advisory committee. I am also told that members of the committee representing management and representing labour through the MFL were opposed to the technique that my honourable friend is putting forward today.

They felt that this was not an effective-I believe they felt this was not an effective way of dealing with the issues. So I am told that they did look at other alternatives that are employed in other provinces, that these were rejected, and we have accepted the advice of that committee. Mr. Reid: It is interesting, Mr.

Chairperson, to note that-and I will not blame this current Minister of Labour, but the previous Minis ter of Labour ind icated that he was unwilling to accept the recommendations of an advisory committee-and I am talking about the Labour Management Review Committee-with respect to legislation, and that particular minis ter brought forward and now this min ister is accepting the full recommendations of a particular advisory body.

So it is interesting to compare the two minis ters and to see that there appears to be a change here, and I hope that where there are other recommendations that do come forward perhaps from the LMRC in the future that they will be taken into consid eration, as well, because the past min ister did not wish to pursue that course of action. I want to ask the min ister to go back on the field ins pectors for a minute.

With respect to the field ins pectors, when he provides the list of the names of the individuals if he will also provide the classification ranking under the Civil Service Commission for those individuals. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I want to thank my friend for his kind words. I hope that we can work with both management and labour to make amendments to legislation when that is appropriate. I would point out to him that the advisory committee was given the task by the previous min ister to look at the legislation and the fines, and they reported just as I became minister, and we have accepted those recommendations.

So while I appreciate his compliments. I think he should know that the previous minis ter was the one who had sent this to the advisory body to have them review it. Yes, we can indi cate. when we give him the names of the people who work within the Workplace Safety and Health branch. what their titles are. · Mr. Reid: I think. if! recall correctly, the number used was-when I asked the number of cases, inspections that you do-l think the number was 3.000. Was that the number of field inspections that are undertaken? Was that the response that you had given me?

Were there 3,000 improvement orders as well or did that include the improvement orders? If that did not include the improvement orders. can you tell me the number of those, please? Mr. Gillesham mer: Perhaps I can give my friend an historical base for the last few years. In 19 95-96, there was just under 3,000 inspections, 2,720 and 2,757 improvement orders were issued. The previous year in '94- 95, there was 2,592 inspections and 2, 10 4 improvement orders. In '93-94, there was 2,942 inspections and 3,300 improvement orders. In '92-93, there was 3,505 inspections and 3,452 improvement - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2945 orders, and the last year I have before me was 19 91- 92 where there was 3,888 inspections and 3, 171 improvement orders. Mr. Reid: I have been mulling this over for some time, and I do not know how best to approach this problem. I do not want to put the firm's name on the public record at this point, because I believe in fairness to the firm they should be given some opportunity to correct a situation that I observed with my own eyes. Can you tell me, have you undertaken to do any audits in southern Manitoba, southwestern Manitoba? Mr. Gillesha mmer: Mr.

Chair, I am told that we do approximately 10 audits a year and some of them have been in rural Manitoba. Mr. Reid: Have any of them taken place in the community of Winkler? Mr. Gilleshammer: We do not have that information here, but we can find that out for the member. Mr. Reid: I am going to share the name of the firm with the minis ter off the record later in fairness to the firm to allow them to take corrective action, but I did observe where there were individuals working in that particular company that were drilling with I believe it was air-powered hand drills and they were not wearing protective eyewear.

No safety glasses or goggles were worn. I observed individuals working with fibreglass without respirators. I did observe indivi duals who were grinding with little hand-held air-powered grinders fibre glass components within a foot of their face with no respiratory equipment or protection worn. Now I do not want to do anything to harm that particular industry from being successful, but I want to make sure that the employees who are working there-and there are quite a number of them who are working within that particular firm-are provided with every opportunity to provide for their safe workplace.

If I were to provide this information to the minis ter, will he undertake to have members of the Workplace Safety and Health office contact this particular firm to make sure that the appropriate corrective action can be taken so that the employees themselves can be protected and to ensure that if the management of that particular operation is not aware of what their labour requirements are, that they may be educated as well? Will the mini ster be willin g to undertake that on behalf of the department? * (1510 ) Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr.

Chairman, for sure the department receives information from a variety of sources, and inspections and investigations take place. Not unlike any government department or organization that has to do inspections and investigations, the information will come from a variety of sources. If the member has information that he feels the department should have so that we can work with a firm and with employees to make the workplace safer, I would be pleased to receive that and pass it on to my staff and they can, in tum, deal with it in an appropriate manner. Mr. Reid: I thank the min ister for that undertaking.

I must advise, too, while it was not just one firm that I had the opportunity to visit first-hand, this was the one that from first-hand observations was severely lacking in its workplace safety and health practices. I am not sure what other actions need to be taken, but I will provide the name for the minis ter to make sure that the appropriate measures can be taken. The other firms that I have had the opportunity to visit from my own life's experiences did have or appeared to have the appropriate measures and guards and practices in place to protect for the employees.

Can the min ister tell me, I had written to him some time ago when he first took over office as Minis ter of Labour, asking about the incid ent that had just occurred at the Pine Falls paper plant operation. It is my understanding that the individ ual that worked at that particular operation that was injured as a result of the chemical spill-and the min ister can correct me if I am wrong, because the branch, I take it, would have done some investig ation on this matter by now. What practices were occurring?

The indivi dual, from my understanding, was a new employee to the particular operation, may not have had sufficient training in workplace safety and health practices and also may not have been provided with the appropriate safety gear to protect that person going in to clean up a hazardous chemical spill. Can the minis ter tell me what actions Workplace Safety and Health have taken in that particular case?

2946 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 Mr. GiUeshammer: I am told that that inc ident is still before the department, and the review is continuing. Mr. Reid: This has been a number of months now. How long does it take for the branch to investi gate these matters? Has the field officer concluded the invest igations on this? Is it now in the hands of the di rector or the minis ter? Can the minis ter tell me: What is the holdup on making a decision with respect to this case? Mr. GiUeshammer: Mr.

Chairman, I am informed that the file with all the information has been forwarded to the Department of Justice. Mr. Reid: I take it then that there is a recommendation from the director or from the min ister that specific court action take place with respect to this case. Is that the recommendation that you have passed on to the Justice department? Mr. GiUeshammer: I am told the practice is simply to send all of the information to the appropriate people in Justice, that we do not send recommendations with it, that the file speaks for itself, those determinations are made by staff in the Department of Justice. Mr.

Reid: I understand that the Justice department has to make the determination whether or not this proceeds to the court, but I would expect that the Workplace Safety and Health branch which handles the act itself must be in a position to make some determination on whether or not there was a breach of the Act and that there must be some advice provided to the department. Can you share with me the advice that you have provided to the Justice department? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I think that I was pretty clear on that, that the file with the findings is sent to the Department of Justice, and they make the determination there whether they are going to proceed or not proceed. Mr. Reid: Who makes the determination with respect-because, and you can correct me if I am wrong, if this case is to proceed to the courts? Would this fall under the-1 would take it, under the old legislation, the legislation that is currently in place and who makes the determination on whether or not on what level of fine should it proceed to the courts?

What level of fine is going to be asked for, when this case, if it does proceed to the courts? Mr. GiUeshammer: Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that the judge will make that determination. Mr. Reid: Does not the Justice department when they proceed on the advice of the Workplace Safety and Health branch-and I take it there must be some information that is provided in there on the severity of the case-does the Justice department not proceed on some advice provided by the Workplace Safety and Health branch with respect to the severity of it and whether or not the maximum sanctions should be applied? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, the Crown attorneys office, I believe, takes the information forward and the judge will make the determination as to the outcome of the case looking back, as judges do, on previous history of incide nts of that type and previous benchmarks which will exist within the court system. Mr. Reid: I am not totally famili ar with the process you have and the recommendations you may make. I hope you do make recommendations from time to time because some of the cases are obviously more severe, and I look to an example involving the Power Vac company.

The part that bothers me about that particular case, when it did proceed to the courts the Justice department lawyer-when that case proceeded to the courts-from my understandin g, did not ask for the maximum fine which was a measley $1 5,000 for the young man who nearly lost his life and who will never be the same. * (1 520) I know I have raised this case with the minis ter when we were in the Workers Compensation committee hearings here.

That is why I am trying to get some understanding here of the process that you have in place, because if the Crown attorney proceeding on behalf of the Justice department goes to the courts and he does not have a clear understanding in his or her mind about the severity of the case or some recommendation provided, then they may be somewhat wanting in some direction here on the severity of it and then not ask for the maximum sanction. That is what - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2947 has happened in the Power Vac case here and that is why I would like to know more about your process when you are proceeding to make recommendations to the Justice department. In that Power Vac case, the Justice department I think failed miserably in their mandate to protect the public and to enf orce the act for a lousy $1 5, 000. I know it is never going to make that individual's life whole again, but there had to have been a strong message that was sent out to the particular company that was involved that this is

an act that is extremely serious and by asking for not even the maximum, then that sends the message to the presiding judge that even the Crown attorneys office does not consider this to be a serious matter. So then the judge is left to make their own decisions based on what the Crown attorney and the def ence attorneys are saying to them. So if the Crown attorney is not even asking for the maximum in serious cases such as that where there is serious disfigurement or death that are involved, then the judge is left with no other option but to consider this not to be of a serious nature.

That is why I am asking you: Why does the department then not make recommendations to the Justice department on what actions to proceed with? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, again, our role here is to investigate and find all the information that we can and present that information to the Crown to make a determination whether they are going to take it forward or not. Then it is the Crown's responsibil ity to put the case and the judges' responsibil ity to make a determination. I think what I hear my honourable friend saying is that he is not happy with the Crown's handling of cases in the past.

I do not mean to make light of this, but I know that the Justice Estimates are coming up and perhaps that would be the place to raise that issue. Our role is pretty straightforward, is to investi gate, gather the information, and without any role in determining whether charges are going to be laid or how the court system is going to handle it, present that information to the Crown and they carry it forward from there.

Certainly if the Crown attorneys have questions that they want to clarify, if they need more information, our staff will be at their disposal to provide that to them, but the place where those decisions are made is in the Department of Justice. Mr. Reid: Perhaps the minister is right. Maybe I should be pursuing the Min ister of Justice (Mr. Toews) on this.

I just thought-! could be way out to lunch on this-that it would be reasonable to expect that because there is a certain amount of expertise that is within the Workplace Safety and Health branch-or at least you have that at your disposal-that you can, because of that experience within the department, provide some guidance to the Justice department when these serious cases are being pursued through the courts. I mean the Crown attorney is so remote from this process. He grabs a piece of paper the same way that we do in this building here, but he has no real connection into the process.

Yes, he may have some disc ussions with the individual that was involved, but if there is a death in there, of course I am not sure what interaction they would have with the family, if any. But the department, the Workplace Safety and Health branch that is investigating these matters has that contact as does the Workers Compensation Board have the contact with the family, and they know the impact and the severity of it here.

That is why I am looking for a way to improve the communication that happens between the Workplace Safety and Health branch and the Justice department when these cases do proceed to the courts so that you, utilizing the expertise that you have, can make a recommendation on the severity of the matter to the Crown attorney that would be proceeding with the case, so that when it does go to the courts, those thoughts or those impressions or opinions can hopefully then be passed on to the presiding judge.

Then the judge can take all of the facts into consideration including the opinions of the Workplace Safety and Health branch and not just a remote third party as a Crown attorney may be in this process. That is why I am looking to have some way to improve the process of communi cation with and recommendations coming from Workplace Safety and Health to the Crown attorneys. Is it possible to undertake some action like that? Mr.

Gille shammer: I have no reason to believe that the investigations that are undertaken by Workplace Safety and Health are not very thorough and that the facts of the case are identified and recorded, and for

2948 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 staff in the Workplace Safety and Health division, at the end of the process their role is to provide that thorough and well documented information to the Crown. It is the Crown's responsibil ity to evaluate that_ information, and I suppose test it against the legislation and make their determination of whether they are going to proceed with it; then it will be up to the judge to make a determination of guilt or innocence, and if there is some guilt, the level of the fine and the punishment that is imposed. Mr.

Reid: I may be a bit naive here in my expectations of the department, but I thought, for the benefit of socie ty as a whole and to improve a process, there should be some communi cation that takes place other than just a piece of paper that goes over to the department with the file and it is so remote in its connection between the Crown attorney, and that is why I raise it again. There is a remoteness there. There is no connection.

There are no humans attached to this piece of paper other than the names you may read on the piece of paper and if there were some recommendations that would come from the department-! will just leave that with the min ister. We could go on at this forever, and I do not think that the Crown attorneys that would be involved-no doubt they have a workload that is quite onerous as well-can take the time to sit down and do the in-depth research that the branch has already undertaken.

They have some experience in dealing with these matters over quite a number of years and they have made the contact with the in dustry and perhaps with the family as well. They can make the recommendations if this particular, I am not saying this company but if a company or an individ ual that is not adhering to The Workplace and Safety Act and it is serious where an individu al is severely dis figured or maimed or a loss of life that the department has that expertise to pass on to the Justice department.

That is why I would want, failing some other argument to the contrary that would convince me otherwise, that a recommendation should go from the branch to the Justice department to make sure that the Crown attorney understands clearly before they proceed to the courts, the severity of the case.

That is why I just raised that with the minis ter, because I looked at the Power Vac case and talked to some of the individ uals that have been involved with this matter and looked at the results of it going to the court, and I can see quite clearly that the Crown attorney did not have a clear understanding of the severity of the case. Otherwise I would have expected the indivi dual attorney to ask for the maximum which as I said was only $1 5,000 on each ofthe counts, and there were two counts that came in for a total of, I think, around $1 3,000 or $1 5,000 on both counts.

So there does not seem to be a communication between the severity of the case that The Workplace Safety and Health is investigating versus what the Crown attorney is putting forward in the courts. * (1 530) I will leave that with the min ister. I do not know if he has any comments that he wants to make but I will leave that with him because there seems to be a process here that can be established to have a clearer understanding between the two departments. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr.

Chairman, what I hear the critic for the NDP saying is that no matter how complete, exact, thorough and detailed that report is, he wants some passion displayed by departmental staff to go along with the paperwork, but the process that we follow is to do the investigation and to get all of the information and detail and the work is done professionally, thoroughly. But under our system, the Crown attorney, the Crown makes the determination of whether to proceed or not. Now my honourable friend is going one step further and saying that somebody has to get the Crown attorney fired up about it.

I suppose what he is saying is this is just another case in the workload of a Crown attorney, but, in fact, that is what their job is, is to review the evidence, to look at the in formation and to do their job in taking it forward if they are prosecuting and to put the best case forward that they can. Again, I indi cated a few minutes ago, the departmental staff would be available to review any of that documentation, to answer any questions, to provide any clarifications that would be needed, any information that the Crown would see to be lacking.

It is in the Department of Justice where those determinations are made and what level of punishment is requested as they appear before a judge and that judge, looking at previous history and previous cases and previous benchmarks, will make that determination. - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2949 For sure we feel that the current legislation needs to be updated. The task force that reviewed this, the review committee, brought forward a unanimous recommendation, and we are accepting that. I guess we are mixing two issues here in a way, but I think the member has indi cated that part of the issue, as he sees it, is that the level of fines has to be increased. This legislation that we are bringing forward this session will allow for that.

The direction and the attitude that is taken by the Department of Justice-and in our country we believe that people within the justice system go forward and make those decisions independent of interference-has by and large worked in our society. But these are human beings too, and they will put their own priority on cases, it would be my view, depending on their experience and their background in these cases, but our role and the role of the Justice department is very separate. I hear what the member is saying and, if nothing else, it would give my staff and myself an opportunity to think about these things.

This is a long standing practice that has been part of this department and the Department of Justice for, I would guess, decades. Mr. Reid: Perhaps it has been a long-standing practice of the department for decades. I have not been in this occupation for decades. I only know the cases that come before me in my time here, in my experiences with the families and the individuals that I have to deal with. I have raised some of the cases with the minis ter in the Workers Compensation comm ittee hearings, with previous minis ters and former minis ters, about the cases that I am hearing.

All I am trying to do is inject some humanity into the process here so that there are real human beings that are affected by the decisions that are made, not so much in this particular case involving Power Vac because as the minis ter has explained to me, it was the Crown attorneys that made the decisions, it is the Justice department that makes those decisions.

I am just trying to say that there are real people that are attached and real families that are attached to the decisions that are made, and if the Crown attorney in a very busy day does not understand because they do not have the time to take to understand, not asking for or not being aware of the seriousness of the case-and I am being repetitive here-that there needs to be some understanding given to that Crown attorney or to the Justice department. That is all I am asking, and I will not go any further on that.

I want to ask about-because the minis ter said in his opening comments on these Estimates that the Petroleum Branch of the Energy and Mines has taken over responsibility for conducting safety and health ins pections, have those particular individuals in the Petroleum Branch-I take it that they must have some experience in that particular in dustry-also been provided with any kind of training dealing with The Workplace Safety and Health Act? Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr.

Chairman, I am told that there are six individuals within the Department of Energy and Mines that are performing this task, that there have been workshops held to provide them with that training and that guidance, and there is also a protocol in place that if there is a situation that is serious that they need assistance with, they can call in staff from Workplace Safety and Health to assist them. Mr. Reid: Why was the decision made to transfer this work over to Energy and Mines? * (1 540) Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr.

Chairman, I am told that this was seen as an efficiency, that it correlates very much with the type of work that is being performed by those individuals. I am told that there are some 300 people working in that area that individuals from Energy and Mines interrelate with as part of their job, and it was seen, again, as an efficiency that part of their responsibil ity and role could be the workplace safety and health concerns that we would have as a department there.

So we have supplied the training, we have supplied the background information and, again, if need be, our staff can be called in to assist with those inspections. It also has led, I think, to probably more comprehensive overview of the activities taking place within that sector. Mr. Reid: Can the min ister, when he provides me with the list that he is going to provide, also give me a breakdown, because he has done, I think, some 20,000 firms that are involved or should be involved from what

2950 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, I9 97 I understand through this process? It would be the higher-risk firms that would require certain inspections. Can you give me a breakdown on the types of activities those firms that fall under that category-so I might have an idea-or a breakdown on the type of in dustry that is involved? Perhaps the minis ter can provide that when he sends that information over to me. Mr. Gillesbammer: My staff have taken note of that, and we will send that information along. Mr. Reid: One last question here.

Under your explanation notes in the supplementary document, you have a reduction in the provision for Workers Compensation costs. Can you explain that to me, please? Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I am told that historically these were surplus funds that were lapsing, and it was felt that we could take them out of the budget and that they were no longer required there. Mr.

Reid: When you say surplus funds, do you mean there had been anticipa tion that there may have been some injuries within that particular branch and that these funds were in there to cover any costs that you might have expected with respect to premiums that would have had to be paid to the Workers Compensation Board and perhaps may have been associated with your field officers who may have been hurt, or others? Mr. Gillesham mer: Mr. Chair, I am told that the money previously was for some assistance to an employee who had been injured. That employee has now left the department. Mr.

Reid: I have no further questions on this section. Mr. Chairper son: Item II .2. Labour Programs (

f) Workplace Safety and Health, (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,367, 400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $684,200-pass. II .2 .(

g) Occupational Health (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Reid: Can the minis ter tell me-and I have had this process of investigation of it. I note in this

section under Occupational Health, under the Activity Identification, it looks at disease outbreak investigations. Cancer clusters is one of the examples, and it kind of triggers this case in my mind. It involves a particular industry here, Federal Industries, that had people employed in manufacturing of electrical transformers. Then there are certain oils that were related to that particular industry.

Has any investig ation been undertaken by the department with respect to that particular business, because it is my understanding that some II individuals were involved and did contract specific cancers, all very simi lar in nature? In fact, some of the people have now died from it, and the famili es, at my understanding, maybe already have made contact with the department. Can you tell me what investig ation has been undertaken by the department to investi gate matters such as this one? Mr. Gil lesham mer: I am informed that staff have examined thi� issue.

They have been unable to prove that there is a direct link. This, I guess, emerged in a report that was done for the MFL by a doctor who alluded to this, but none of the professionals who have examined it have found a direct link or relationship that they felt was clearly evidence that the substance, PCBs, was the cause of this cancer. Mr.

Reid: Am I to understand the minis ter clearly, that the Occupational Health Branch of his department has determined that there is a link between the particular type of in dustry that was utilizing PCB-laden oils, cooling oils, in those particular transformers for which the employees may have come in contact and have subsequently developed a cancer versus medical people in the field who have not made that link? Am I understanding that clearly? Mr. Gillesh ammer: No.

What I said was that they examined it, and they were unable to find a link that would lead them to believe that that was the cause of the cancer. case drawn to my attention and I am going through the Mr. Reid: In your department? - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 295 1 Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. Mr. Reid: I take it then, this has been left in the hands of the medical experts to undertake further investigation on this, and that the department is not actively pursuing this. Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. These are medical experts within our department that did this examination and review. They were unable to find a direct linkage between the work and the substances that these individuals came in contact with and the state of their health.

I am also told that the case has not been totally closed, that if there was further information that could be pursued staff would do that. * (15 50) Mr. Reid: So is staff in the minister's Occupational Health Branch undertaking further investigation on this or has this been left up to others to pursue this type of research? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that our staff member Dr. Ted Redekop and his staff did the examination and review of this and did not come to a conclusion that there was a linkage between the work that was being undertaken by these individuals and the health issues that they have.

I am also aware that this whole area of PCB exposure is being examined in many other jurisdictions without, I guess, a definitive outcome being arrived at at this time. So, from time to time, the issue surf aces again as perhaps other individuals who fall ill want to have their particular circumstances examined. So, in some ways, it does reopen from time to time, but no evidence has been found at this time to make that direct linkage. Mr. Reid: I guess medicine, wanting to be more precise on their opinions, need to have that research that is undertaken.

I would have thought that by now, considering the amount of discussion and hopefully research that had been done on industries involving and utilizing PCBs, there would have been some case history that would have been developed throughout the world because Canada and Manitoba are not the only jurisdictions that have utilized PCB- laden oils over the years and that there would have been at least some case history to draw some conclusions that anybody utilizing that particular product would be susceptible to developing certain diseases and that there might have been some clarifity on this issue with respect to that particular indu stry, considering that they had utilized-f rom what I am told, the 11 people who have now contracted cancer had been working in the transformer area for which those particular oils were being utilized.

So I thought there would have been some background work that would have already been done, that somewhere various jurisdictions throughout the world- Has that type of research been undertaken to contact other jurisdictions worldwide? Because electrical transformers are not only in operations and manufacture here in Manitoba but in other jurisdictions. Have you made that contact with other jurisdictions? (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I am glad to have you join us this afternoon. I am told that part of the responsibility of Dr. Redekop and other staff, Ms.

Alberg, is to be aware of what is happening in other jurisdictions, to contact other jurisdictions, to be current on findings in other parts of the world. Discussion about exposure to PCBs and cancer in workers and human beings has been there for a long time, but I guess we are at the point where nobody has definitively determined that linkage. So our staff continue to monitor and to research and to communicate with the scientific community and other jurisdictions to be aware of any information that comes forward that would be pertinent to this case and other cases in Manitoba. Mr.

Reid: Having worked in that particular field for a number of years and having known of individuals who used to immerse their arms and sometimes their upper bodies in PCB-Iaden oils, knowing that those people are no longer with us as a result of various diseases that they contracted leads me to ask questions in this regard, so I know what the impacts on individuals are. I want to ask, because also under this Activity Identification you talk about fibrogenic dusts and you

2952 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 19 97 talk about sili cosis and asbestosis, do you also under either the Workplace Safety and Health branch or the Occupational Health unit investigate industries that are involved in the manufacture or utilization of wood products whether it be window manufacturers, furniture manufacturers, and the dusts that are involved and the employees coming into contact there? What experience does the department have in that regard? Do you do audits of these particular companies in this regard or these particular industries? Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr.

Chairman, for sure, probably all of us know individuals who either work for companies like Manitoba Hydro or other companies where PCB oil was used and not seen as a danger to one's life or health.

I think one of the items that I recounted to the member last week was one of the first fatalities in the farm community was someone who was mixing chemicals in their grain bin or in a container to use in seeding and mixed it by hand with their arms, and within hours of that, that individ ual was dead, a very well-known, even famous individual in western Manitoba who worked with young people, well known in hockey circles. I mean the warning bells went off everywhere.

This goes back probably to the late 19 70s or early 19 80s that there was some real danger there in working with chemicals and compounds that we do not know much about and that can be absorbed into the body through our pores and create some awful damage. * (1 600) The member asks about the wood manufacturers, those people who make windows and doors and furniture. We do monitor the levels of dust that are in those plants and work again with the employee and employer committees on workplace safety and health, and, of course, we are able to measure that.

I know in a couple of the tours that I have been on in the last couple of years to a number of those companies, I was impressed with the overall operation of the plants and the concern that employers took for their staff, the protective measures that were obvious and in place, and, also, in a couple of cases, the morale and spirit of the employees who were part of a growth industry that was exporting product to all parts of the world, and to be able to see the whole process from the raw lumber being brought into the plant to the finished product being shipped out.

The one thing I noted there were the masks that were worn by most staff to assist with their breathing. I guess all of us have seen in the last decade the changes that take place in the workplace to try and make the health and safety of workers uppermost in these particular plants. I am also told that while we do those dust surveys, that there has been scientific evidence linking the dust from cedar to a certain type of cancer. We do not apparently produce a lot of product in Manitoba made out of cedar, so I suppose that is probably a good thing but our normal practices are in place in those particular plants.

Mr. Reid: I take it then, you do audits of those particular operations to determine that the employees or the people that are working in there, all people that are working in there are protected. Mr. Gilleshammer: We do investig ations and we do preventative work with those particular companies. I think I indi cated to an earlier question. we do about I 0 audits a year where we have a more in-depth examination of the workplace. Again, in answer to an earlier question, the member was going to ask us to take a look at a particular company. and I said that we would take a look at that information.

Again. the department receives information from a variety of sources and if there is some substance to it. we will certainly act. I know various departments, whether it be social services or Education or Natural Resources, when you have an inspection function or a regulatory function, if information is provided that would lead us to believe that an inspection or an audit is warranted we would pursue that. Mr.

Reid: There must be some-from my recollection, where you have either wood products or you have PCB laden oils used in transformer manufacture, there are certain amounts of WHMIS-related information that is attached and accompanies those particular products. If I recall correctly, and I am going from memory here from a number of years ago, those particular WHMIS documents indica te that there is a carcinogenic - -

May 20, 19 97 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2953 component to these particular products whether it be wood or the oils. How is it that WHMIS people, which is part of the federal government, I understand, can make a determination that there is carcinogenic properties associated with these oils or these wood products and yet the department's Occupational Health or Workplace Safety and Health branch cannot make a similar determination? How is it that they can do it and you cannot? Mr. Gille shammer: Mr.

Chairman, in relationship to the PCBs, out of an abundance of caution, PCB oil use was discontinued many years ago, even though the proof or the linkage with that and cancer has not been definitively proven. With reference to the cedar, the use of particular types of cedar whose dust perhaps has been proven to cause cancer, this is a product that is not found in Manitoba in its raw state, and it is related to, 1 think, B.C. and some in California, the red cedar. So if those are the two things, the PCBs and the cedar that the member is talking about, one is not used anymore and the other is not found in Manitoba.

I have a feeling that it is other wood products that he is talking about. Perhaps in a subsequent question he could clarify that. Mr. Reid: I have done some research on this because it did affect my community. There was a par ticular furniture manufacturer in my community-! dealt with this a number of years ago and hopefully it has been resolved to a large extent, although not 10 0 percent perfect_:_where there were hardwoods that were involved. I am talking hardwoods that are grown commonly here in Manitoba in the sense of poplar or oak or other such types of wood components of the particular furniture.

Those trees grow naturally here in Manitoba, and yet from the research that I had undertaken at that time-the people who are working in those particular types of industries, whether it be that one or others, working with these hardwood products, and in some cases they are chipped or made into particles and then formed into a hardboard. So these people are working in particular operations like that, and the research has shown that there is nasal, throat, lip, mouth cancers that come out of involvement or continual interaction with those particular hardwood products. That is why I raised this type.

I want to know what kind of audits you are doing in that particular type of industry because there is a growing number of people that are employed in that particular company within my own community and I am sure in other companies in the province as well dealing with furniture manufacture. It is not a shrinking industry. It seems to be growing at least by evidence of the one company in my community. That is why I wanted to know what type of audits you undertake to do to protect the people that are utilizing or working with those particular components, those wood products. (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) Mr.

Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, you know, the information in the depa rtment is that it is possibly substances that are used in the treatment of these woods in some of the chemicals, some of the glue, that sometimes perhaps has some effect on individuals. I guess what I would say is that we have professional, industrial hygienists within the department that we would be pleased to make available to the honourable member to perhaps delve into this in more detail.

I think what I am being told is that we do not have concrete evidence of cancers in those workplaces, but, again, we could make some of our professional staff available to the honourable member to go into this in more detail. * (1610 ) Mr. Reid: Well, the research was done by a former member of your particular department who is no longer with you and has the expertise in that particular field and did provide me with the literature related to that and did provide explanation of that particular literature. That is why I raised it.

I had hoped that there would have been some ongoing research in that regard, but, perhaps, if I can pull that information together, I can forward it on or at least provide you with some avenue for investigation on where that information comes from. In that regard, I have no further questions in this. Mr. Gille shammer: That would be acceptable. Mr. Chair person: Item 11 .2. Labour Programs (

g) Occupational Health

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2 15 ,900-pas s;

(2) Other Expenditures $34,500-pa ss.

2954 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, I9 97 Itemi1 .2.(

h) Mines Inspection (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $503 ,900. Mr. Reid: Mr. Chairperson, can the min ister tell me how many vacancies, if any, are existing in the Mines Inspection? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told there are none. Mr. Reid: Can the minis ter tell me how many in spections have taken place in regard to mines in the province? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that there are about 400 inspections on an annual basis. Mr. Reid : Can the minis ter tell me the number of accidents that took place in the minin g-related industry and the number of deaths? Do you have that statistical information here? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am told that there are about on an average 4.5 accidents per I 00 workers, and as far as fatalities go, in I9 96 there were three. Mr. Reid: Ifl recall the number correctly, the minister said there were some 400 inspections. Of those inspections that were undertaken, can you tell me how many directors' orders were issued? Mr. Gilleshammer: There would be approximately 900 orders issued in the course of 19 96. Mr. Reid: How many of those cases or orders have been referred to Justice? Mr. Gillesh ammer: I am told the cases where there were fatalities have been referred to Justice. Mr.

Reid: I take it then that all of the other approximately 900 orders have been complied with and that corrective action has been taken? Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Reid: Can the minis ter tell me why he has eliminated the mines rescue co-ordinator position? * (1 620) Mr. Gilleshammer: I do believe we have had the opportunity to speak on this matter before, and I will simply be repeating myself, but this mines rescue co ordinator was deleted from the I9 97-98 budget.

The position was designed to train mines rescue instructors to maintain a list of all trained mine rescue personnel and mine rescue stations and inspect mine rescue stations. The position was based here in Winnipeg and was classified as a Mines Inspector 4. It was a service as opposed to a regulatory position. It was deemed to be redundant with existing industry safety activities. The position was fully funded from the Workers Compensation Board, and its elimination will directly eliminate charges to the companies.

The companies or its agent could therefore buy service from the savings resulting from the elimination of the position. So this position then, as I have indi cated on one other previous occasion, was deemed to be redundant in that the various mines were providing this particular service and the Mines Accident Prevention Association of Manitoba, known as MAPAM, is composed of representatives of the mines in the province, and they have endorsed this. They have indica ted that this was a dup

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-47
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 47.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d490fe875549f52b1e0a86cd6182b7f22028ea8a

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