3.. Volume XLI Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 45 31 May 1990

The House met at 2:00p.m. Min. Speaker (Lush): 0J"d!'::11n, plE!aSe! The han. the Member for Humber East. Ms Verge: I risc~1 on a point of privilege to make a statement. We on the official Opposition, as everyone realizes, have taken issue strenuously with both the postt:i.on and thE:' stTategy of Lhr::· Premier regarding Lhe Meech Lake AccoJncl. HOIAJevE•i", lAJE• a1ne outra~jed by l:he COITIITIE!nts i'riC\dlc' by the Assistant Deputy Speaker of the HouSE! of· Cornrnons, Denis Ptnonovost, rnal:ignin~J thE~ Pre:1m:iE!In and thr:' peop1e of ou1n Ptnovince. We have w1nitten thE!

Pl"irne Min'i.stE!r saying those statemE:1nts are unacceptable in any circumstancE!S and they are harmfuJ. to the E!ffot"ts of all parties to achieve constitutional peace in Canada. We have askf~d the Pt"ilTIE! Minis tE!I" to instt"uct Mt". P_l"o novo s t to apologize irnmedia t.e 1 y to the Pl"E!rnier and the people of our Province. It is vitally important, as lJJe for the that approach the deadline resolving differences about Canadian constitution, everyone refrain from makinq and personally disparaging offensive remarks. Mr.

SpeakE!r, I lAJould cit"culate this statement a copy of the letter behalf of the OFficial to the Pr·ime Minister. 1 ike l:o and l:able I sc~1nt on Opposition Som_e l-Ion. Members : Hear, hoat"! Mr. Speaker: The han. Uie Prc~'mif:1r . Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, I just received a telephone call from Monsieur Pronovost and he expressed his mosl: sincere and 1,_1 May 31, 1990 Vol XU deE:1p apoJ.og:i.es. Anybody 1~.1ho 1 is t: C:! n ~=~ d to lAJ h a t: M r . PI" on o 1; o "· 1 i 1 ·'l cl to say could only be impressed with what.

I would call t:he depth of the sincerity and the manner in which he expressed the apology. All of us know that in the heat of debate we are prone to say things that we should not say, and Mr. Pronovost, having apologized as he did and in the manner in which hE:' did, I accepted his apology without any reservation lAlhi3.tSOE!Vi:•J", i·li "lc\ .I f:!XPI"i::•s~;c•cl IllY g r· at. t t u d e to h :i.tTI f o I" h :i. s c o t.ll" t. e s y in calJ.:ing. ThE•J"f~ dl"l1 l':.tJJO oLh"'l" things I should say.

Sorne of l:.l'w cornmE!nts t:.hat he made rnake c.l far lTIOI"C0 eloquent Cti"~~LII'l'IE:!nt fOl" thE! position I am taking lAJith r'f:!spoct to puttin~~ a TriplE• "E" Senate :in place, than anything I have evl:'r said, the J~eaJity of it., and let us not forget thaL. Some Han. Membe . .J:.?. : H1:~a1", hE'!dr! .e.r.~_II!,!,_~_r_,, __ !!i~.Jt~. : I f:1 X p I" e S S S 0 rn E! gr·atitucle to Lhe han. Mf:!tTJbE!r fot" Humber East for her opinion bul~ I cannot help but point out., Ml".

Speaker, that l:he remarks of Opposition ME•mbr:~rs yestr:'i"clay, ancl the day before, in their questioning in the House, accusE•d me of spreading ha Lred aqa:inst QUE!b<~'c. It .i.s no L at <.·11 ·1 unl "ikr::• Lhe int.f:~i'rlpE•t··aLe l"ei'lldl"k~,: of i!JI". Pt"onovost. An Han. Member·: It is tl"LIE'! . Premier Wells: Somebody now claims it is true. I say again it is time for aJ.l people in this country to deal with l:he issues involved in the M1:~E!Ch Lab:! Accor·cl on the basis of a f'<~ir· and full consideration of Lheir mer:i t s lArithout pet"sonal attacks. !'his cornltl<"•nt Loday by t:he hon.

MornbE•I" For 1-IUIIiblc'r Ei:lSL l''il!l~S ~>Ul"L or· hollow in the light. of Lhe remarks No. 1~5 In

contained in Lhe questions the day before yesterday and today. Nevertheless, I express appreciation f~r the support. _§.Q.I!l.~.-~..9-r.!._: ____ ~.§":.. m b ~-!'.:-~ : H e a r , h e a r ! Mr. Speaker: The Chair is sort of at a loss as to IAlhat the Chair is supposed to do because the Member rose on a point of privilege. I am not sure. if it tJJas an actual point of privi1ege . If thE! MernbE!l" could just clarify what it IAJas she wa~> uiC:\nt:i .ng thE! House to do, just for a couple of seconds. .1'1.?..--~-~r_g__~: Mr.

Spc:'aker, tAiith Your Honour 1 s permission and leave of the House I would like to react to the PrE:~miel" 1 s · comments. Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible) . Mr. Speaker: It is an unusual circumstance. I clu not think IAJe should get into debate. We wi11 leave it as it is. The Chair IAlill revietJJ tAihat t:he hon. Mc:Hnber said and act accordingly. Oral Questions Mr . Speaker: lhe hon. the Membet" for' Humber East . Ms Verge: Mr . Speaker, the Premier said in this han.

House last Friday that, in his judgE:~ment, ther'e IAJould be sel"ious negative consequences for Newfoundland and Labrador if Quebec were to separate from the rest of Canada. I am referring to Hansard for last Fr~day in quoting the Premier 1 s rernarks.

I would noiAJ like to ask the Premier to explain what type of serious negative consequences for our Province, I"C:~sull::ing fl"otn QuebE!C 1 s separating, he Foresees, and if 1..2 May 31, 1990 Vol XLI these serious negative consequences include a lessening of our social programs, such as unemployment insurance, old a~~e pension, veterans pensions and allowances, transfer payments for health and post-secondary education and equalization grants? Mr. Speaker : The han. the Prernic:'r .

Premier Wells : To bc:'gin lAd th, I do not foresee Quebec separating r~I"Oirl Canada. r: do not. bL"!]'iC'Vl'! it tAr:ill. happen. 1 cannot b(;!}oi.evE> Ol" think in terms of a Canada IAliLhout Quebec. Having said that, somebody askr:'d last wer::!k if I thought it. lAIBI"e possible·- ·· j_s .it:. possible? Yes, it:. is possible. I think it is not at all probab1E!, b u ·t I may be in error in that . I t may happen. I suppoSE!, theoretically at the very least, it coul.d happE!n.

It lAJas on] y Len years or so ago Lhal: QuobE•c Lo,)k a vote on it; there is still a substantial body of opinion thinking in that d:i.1nection in Quebec. So theoretically, oF COUI"Se, it: . .is possiblE!. 1~; it. pr-obable? I do not tlri nk it. is probable, so I have:' not bE!en foreseeing any adverse consequences . Somebody asked me if I thought it could happen . Yes, logic te:Jls rne i't is p 0 s s i b 1 e .

J r:· t l:. d 0 ''! s h d p p 1:! n ' wou1cl there be adverse consequences? !·here would be adverse consequences for the entire country, and Newfoundland would suffer no rno1"e or' no ]E!SS than the entire country tAJoulcl suffer if such an unthink<.'tbJ.r:• consequence occurred. Mr. Speaker : The hon. t·:he Ml'lrlber fOI" Hurnb(~'l" East . Ms Ve1"qr:~: Thank S p E:' a b~ I" . J"h e F r' a~; e r through its Exo cuLive No . '1-S you, Ml". Insl :.il:ule, [)j _l"f• C LO I", IU

.... Dr. Michael Walker, who, by the lAJay, is a nat.:iv~~ of Cot"nor Bl"ook, just published statistics showing that our Province r·anks th"ird among all the provinces, behind PEI and Nova Scotia, in receiving per capita net benefits from the Federal Government. The Fraser Institute calculations are that Newfoundland and Labrador received $1.82 billion worth of benefits from Confederation in 1988. Is the Premter not concerned that l:he abi1il:y ol l·:hE~ . Canadian econorrty Lo ma:inl.:a"in such benefits will be hurt if the Meech Lake Accord faLls? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier . Premiel" Wells: Mr.

Speaker, essentially I consider this the sam~~ kind of fearmongering that 1 s part of the planned poltcy that was incl:icatE•cl yester·day in th1:! leaked document from Ontario. Now, this is just conttnuing on with the same kind - An Han. Member: study it. (Inaudible) and Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Premier Wells: Let mt~ start again, Mr. Speaker.

I cons'.ider this to b~' the sarnt~ kind of Fearmonger'.ing that is consisLont wit.h this plannr:!cl PI"091"am to try and discredit the Government and Premter of Newfoundland, on the ME!E•ch Lake issue, lArithout dealing wH:.h the issues that ar~~ involvE!d in the Meech Lake Accord. Let:. us deal t~.Jith 'i.t on the basis of the gE:~nu:ine issue. No, I do not. think NetJJfoundJ.and will be affected any more than any othE:!r pl"ovince if thE! Meech LakE! A c c o I" d g o e s l: h r· o u g h . No , i l: t~.ri . 11 not. If other provinces are affected and l:hE:' Canad'.ian E!Conomy L.3 May 31, 1990 VoJ.

XLI ts aff'r:•ctecl by Lhr:! pas~;aqe Ol" thE:! faiJ.UI"E! to pass l:he ME!E:!ch l.ake Acco1nd as it is, NelAJfound1ancl would b~~ affected, in ~~conotnic terrns dirE:~ctly, about thE:' sarne if the Meech Lake Accord fails.

IF the Meech Lake Accord wei~E:~ to bE:~ approved as it is, Newfoundland would be adversely affected in economic terms infinitely more than any other pr·ovince, br:•cause the economic disparity t hat E~x:ists notAl :i.n t.h'.i.s count.r·y lAJou]d bE• continued, because it would be perpe t ua1ly entrenched by reason of not bE~ing able Lo pu l: a ba l anCE! in tl'w national 1E•q'i.slatut"E:~ so t:hat national economic policy and national legislative powers would be developed and exercised "in a manner that provided for the balanced economic development of the country.

So, economically, the worst. possible t:hing that could happen to NetAJfoundland in the 1onq- - tenn future, over the long tenn, For the next Five to 100 years, is the passage of the Meech LakE:~ Acconl as it. is . Now, if it fa i 1 s , it 1. s possible that it could have so1ne adverse economic consequences on Newfoundland like it would have on the other prov'i.nces, but Lo no greater ex l:E:!nt. M r . _ S p e a k e r : I' h e h o n . L h E! M E! 111 b e I" for St. Mary's- The Capes . Ml"_. Hearn : Thank you, M1··· . Speaker.

I should r·E~Iflind the Premier, lAJhen WE! l:a1k about fear·monger·ing, that he lAJas the one who said in the House he would rather be poor. 1 ask hirn, in l:i.ght of Lhe facl·:. that the latest polls show thaL support f or his stand on Meech Lake is cons:ider'c'lbly sofl:E!n'inq, is the Premter now prepared Lo rethink h'.is overall posi ~ ion? No. 4 !:j rn

Mr. Speaker·: rhe han. the Premier . Premier Wells: He must have the poll in the Tory caucus. is all I can say. tabHl That Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Premier Wells: As a matter of fact, I just received a poll that somebody mailed in to me, faxed in. It is dated today, by Baseline Market Research . Mr. Tobin: ·········· ·-··-·· ---··-········-······- Fi ft y-two per cent . Premier Wells: Just stated today, it as ked questions of how people would vote on the:~ MeE!Ch Lake Accord if "it tJJere put to a referendum.

The question is: Based on what you know today, do you think Newfoundland 1 s decision on the Meech Lake Accord should be madE~ by thE! Pt"E!ITI:i(,~r and the Legislature, or should Newfoundland 1 s decision be made by a vote by the peoplE! of NetJJfoundland? Sixty.-seven per cent say they t~.Jant. the people of this Province to dE:'cide, a right the for·rner Government deprived the people of. We should Ed ther do that, Mr.

SpeakE!r - t.l.)e cannot altr,~tn thE:~ position WE:' took pr·ior to and during the election campaign tJJithout either cal:L:ing a n etJJ e 1 t? c Lion , which t~.Je may Wt:> 11 be prepared to do - Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Some Hon . Members: it . Call it. Call Premier Wells: Mr .

SpE:~aker, tAlE! would either have to do that to gE!l: a new mandate, because l:he mandate tJJe haVE! is to r·eject the Meech Lake Accord, that is the only U..Jay to tnteJ'Tupt the mandate WE:' havf:• and tAle tJJou1d haV(! to call a netAJ E!J.C:~c l:'ion :i.f liJf:' lAJelne t.o gE:' t a I_/~ May 31, 1990 Vol XI...[ netJJ mandahc! to acu'pt it, or, at thE:' vr:~r'y 1E•ast, ca1J a I"E!fE•i"E!nclunl in otndE!l" l:o gr::!t. an authot"izat:.l.on to r'E:~Vt::'rse the position tJJE~ st.atecl to the people of this Province. Clearly, Mr.

SpE!ai<E:~r, a11 of thE• po1ls, and everything that has recently bPen done, have demonstrated clearly that not only the people of Newfoundland and Labrador but the people in ~11 parts of this nal:.:ion objE~cl:. to t.he ME!ech Lake AccoJ"d. Whdl: I do nol: understand, Mr. Speaker, are two things: Fir·st, r do I lOt. understand Premiers, Governments, and Legislaturc.;!S pt"esstu·ing Lhe acceptance of constitutiona1 changes they knotAJ art:' contrar·y to the wishes of the peoplr,, of - t.his country. I cannot understand how you can do that in a dr::!ITJocracy. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, I do not u n cl e In s t a n d p E• o p 1 C:~ lA I h o s u p p o 1··· t. e cl the opposition Lo l:h1:• Me uc h L<.'tke Accord. Whenever thosr::' who tAJant to cause i.t: to happen aga:inst the wishes develop the kinds of schemes tJJe saw 1neleased y1:;!Sterday in Ontario to discredit Lhe opponents, and put out tht:'Se kinds of false stories and Lhis accusation of spreading hatred, the accusation of sabotage, as soon as they see this kind of thing, they I"LIIl and COIAI('I" and abandon any indication of pt"inci.p] c,~. An Han. Mernber: (Inaudible) abuse. Mr. Speaker: Order·. please!

I was about t:o r'E!l'nind thC"! f>I"C;!rniE•r' t hal:. I thin I< he is n OtAJ s L I" a y j_ n q from the question and gett ing into speechifying. J"he hon. the MembE!r for Sl:. Mar'y 1 s - ThE! CapE! s . M r' . .~ e a 1" n : T h a n k y o u • M I" . ~3 p e a k e r' . No. tJ.IJ 1\ /~

Maybe thE! Pi"eln:i.el" should e"ithE!I" analyze hts po11s I TIOI~E! cal~efully, if hE! has th~~ intelligenCE! to do so, or also 1ist.en to things which are negative, as well as tht:~ positive news he seems to assimilate. The 67 per cent who would like to have a say on Meech Lake did not necessarily say they were in favour, they probably wanted to have some say. Let me ask l:he PrE!ITI:i.el" a~~l"ee Prr:~lfliE:~r, doE:~s l":he that thr:• United ~n:.ates Senat.e ts a rr·iple "E" Senate? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: YE:'S, it is a Triple 11 E11 Senate. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for St.

Mary's -The Capes . Mr. Hearn: I ask the Pl"t:!ll"liel~, th~:!n, is he aware that. in thE! United States there are significant differences in pel~sonal income p1':!r capita among thE~ states, and that the n!sidt:'nts of Mississippi, For example, earned lt:~ss than 50 pt:~r cent per capi·ta the citizens of the richest state, Connecticut, earned per cap:i.l~a? HolAJ does he just.".iFy that: in light of the fact that the Tr·".iplE:~ "E" SE•nat.e is suppos(:•d l:o be the panacea for Canada? An Hon. Member: Would you agl"ee that (inaudible)? Mr. Speaker: Orcl t:~ ,~, please! Or·der, please! ThE! han. the Premier.

PrE!miel" Wells: TakE! a couple of Provinces sirnilal~ to NelAJfoundland, OJ" a coupJ.r~ of states, VeJ"rnont, NetAJ HampshiJ~e: VE!I"rnont, lAJ.i.l:h a popu1ation smaller than L5 May 31, 1990 Vol XLI NelAJfouncl1and, has ttAJO senabJI"S; Ca1iForn1a, with a population grE!atel~ than thE• whole of Canada, has ttAJo senators. NE!lA.J l··lampshir':! is in the same boat. New Hamps hi1~e, a New England s t.a te both Vermont and N(~W HampshirE! on the coast of l:.he northr:H:lst United States, no um~rnployrn"='nt; New Hampshire, no debt. M1~. Hewlett: Mi.ssiss:ippi .

Pr·t~rrder Wr:~Lls : I tAr.i 1] clj q out Lh c• :in f~OI"ITiat.ion on Miss:iss·ippi ancl bi"ing it to the House. I happE!n to know the information on New Hampshire and Vennont, bE!Cause they a1~e two - An Hon. Member : (Inaudib1e) of course you do. Ml". SpeakE!!~: Oi"dC:~I", plr'.!aSC::!! Premier Wells: L:::!l: lfl (~ s L.:~l~t again, Mr. Speaker .

I will cl".ig out LhE! infonnat:".i.on on Mississippi and any ot.her state they want, but I happen to know the information on New Hampshire and VE!I~rnont becausE! thE!Y al"E~ tlAJO of the states whose gover·nors participate in the New England Governors and EasL.ern Canadian PI"E!rn:iE!I"S Confer't'nCE'. I happE!n to knolAJ l:.he sl:at"i.sl:.ics on thoSE! l.I.AJO s tat.es, but l tA.Ji.11 dH:·ck the stat.".i.st.ics on Lhe o l..her· srnaJ ler states and bl"ing the :"i.nfol~lnatjon back to the liouse, Mr. SpeakC::'I~. Mr. Speaker: Tht:~ for Harbour Main . Ml". Doyle : question is HousE· Leader·. Mr .

For I Government House han. thr~ MembE!l" ~3pedkel~, rny t h r::• CovE! I" nJTIE! nt aJJI ~>Ul"E! Lhe Leader will be aiAiiH' E• of' L he l"erndl"ks of Lhe Pl~E·siciE'!nl: of A~;sociat:ion oF No. 4-5 Lhe Newfoundland Pub1-.i.c Flnp1oyees, I~~::,

Mt" . Mat"ch, and I quote: 'ThE! Govetnnment se1o;!lllS to be backing out of a deal to ld11 Bi11 ~.)9.' My question is, is Government going to be applying the provisions of the old legislation in dealing with a possible strike or a possible tJJalk·-out by the Lab and X-ray on Monday? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Government House Leader . Min . Baker· : !""hank you, Mr . ~ip eakE!l". WherE:! t;.Je at"E~ corn.ing fl"orn in t:eJ"IfiS of labour legislation is obvious. The Bill has been prepared and, I believe, is beFore the Committee now. It will be undE!r examination in the next Few months.

With regard to the current situat~ion, talks at"E! going on r· i g h t no tAl , a l:. t hoi s rn orne n t ; t he y went on all yr:!sterclay, last: night, they are going on this afternoon. I am pleased with the progress l~hat is being made al: this point. We will just have to allow the process to take its course. I believe in the collective bargaining process, this Government believes in the collecl:.ive bargaining process, and ~e are willing to let it work. Mr. Speaker: The han . th e Memb er For Harbour Main . Ml". DoylE• : Mr. SpeakE• I", thE! Government House Leader did not answer my question.

The union reported today that they submitted a 110 page report to Government outlining what they Felt should be included in that labour legislation and, they said, no meaningful re sponse cam e ba ck from Gov ernment on that. But Goven1mr:•nt r'E· ~; ponded on Tue sday l: hat B i 1.1 1) 9 t;.Ja s s l:. i 11 in p 1 ace . NotAl, that netAJ 1E•g:isl at:i. on is no t L6 May 31, 1990 Vol XU coming bE:!fore th e Hou se f o t~ qu it.e some time yet .

Wi ll Government agree to negotiate with NAPE as if l:he old Bi .ll 59 tAJas not in p1clce, and to honou1" the agreernen t of l::ht ' for ·mer Governm ent and NAPE to negotiate as if th e new legislation was on stream? Mr. Speaker: The han . thE! Government House Leader . Mr. Bake1n : Mt" . Speake I", 1 have t.o COI"I"IC•Ct. S OIIleth:inq . In l:.(! I''IIIS Of t~ he 1 egi s 1 at j

I) n t h a 'l:. -:i. s n ot;.J :i. n L h .::• p r 0 c e s s 0 F be i n g b I" 0 1.1 g h t. b E! I'" u in e. the House, a very high -·r a nkin~i official of NAPE sat on the committee which develop ed tha t.. legislation and had very direct input into thE• lE!gi slation . So I do not really know wher e the han . Member is corning Fr om. rhe second part of his had to do with Bill 59 and q 1.1 e s t· 1 o n so on? Mr. Doyle: as if l~he in place? To nego tia te wit h NAPE n E'IAJ 1 egis 1 a l:.'i on IAJa s now Mr. Baker: We ai"E:' notAl , as I pointed out, talkin g to the barqaining un-:i t:.

We ar E· j n UH :· process of negotia tion. One of the thing s we are d:-iscussin g -:is an E!SS enl: ia l wor k1: !J"S ' d(J I"I':!C !II'I.C'nt , a1.o ng the l:in es , I supp ose, or l..h e legislati on we are pr opo sing . So l:he talks ai' 'E! ongoin ~J. In spite of, perhaps, sotnt' oF the inflarnator ·y thing s you rrdght hNH ', the relationship is st ill there and we are working on Lhe situation; Lue are hoping Fo 1n soJnP sa tisfactory resolution. Mr. Sp eakE: 'r: ThE:' hon. lh E:' Mt:'Jnb eJ" for Harbour Main . Ml" . Doyle : [ IAJould sub1n.iL . Lo Lh.:• Governm ent. Hou se Leader th al ir No. 11.5 R6

Hw str:i.ke takes place on Monday Ol" Tuesday, by the:• Jab and X·-l"ay, nobody seems to be aware right now of what employees will be considered essential. Again I ask him, are you going to be operating on the basis of the old legislation in designating what employees in lab and x-ray will be considered essential? I am sure the hospitals want to know. If this is going to take place on Monday Ol" TuE•sday, a Jot of health care will be in jeopardy. So what E!lllployees 1ArU1 be considel"ed essential in lab and x-ray, and how are you going to determine that? Mr. _ Speaker : ThE:~ han. the Government House Leader.

Mr. Baker: Thank you, Mr . SpeakE:'!". T hat is being detE!rrrdnE!d in U1r:~ pr·ocess of negotiaL"i.on right now. Something should be WOI"ked out l:hat is acceptable to employer and union. This is now in the process of being discussed, and I hope tAle can comE:~ to some kind of satisfactory arrangement. I am sure the Member does not expect me to stand here and say that the Government is going to be h~::~avy-handr:'d in this pal"ticular instance, and tE!l.l thE!m IAJhat i.s qo:inq to happE!n. I am sure the hon.

Member also believes in the bargaining process, in the Fact thal:. if ·things are don<~1 Pl"OPE!rly, and if thE:H'E:~ is goodt.~.ri11 on both siciE!S, that we can come to a satisfactory resolution. Mr. Speaker: for Fogo. rhe hon. thE:' Mernbr::~r ~~ Winsor : Thank you, Ml". Speaker. My question is to lhe Minister of Fisheries. Over the last: fHlAJ clays I havt::• been asking L7 May 31, 1.990 Vol XLI the Minister of Fisheries about s tonn d<unage clone a1ong l:.he nol"thr::~ast coast, and the Pl"OVince :in general. ThE!

Minister l;,Jas chafing at th0.' bit on TlH:•sday to give us an answer, and he to1d us yesterday that therE! was 25 to 30 per cent storm damage. Will t:he Minister not admit that in certain areas of the Province, particularly frorn Cape Freels to Fogo Is1and, the darnaq<:• tA.Jas much L\.JOI"SE:', it lAJaS tn thr:! ~)()to 7 1:> pE•i" c~~nt r·anqe, and ·in SOlrlE! cas"'S ''''.Jun highel", a1ong thE! stl"ail: shor·e? Ml". Speaker: Thr:~ Minister of Fisheries . hon. l:.hE! Mr. Carter: Mr . Speaker, contl"ary to what the han.

M~~mb':'r Lhought. hE! would try to conv E:' y, I neve I" downplayl':!d the sever:i l·:y of l:hc:• damage caused by l:hE'! sl::Ol"m. I cloicl :invr::~st.iqate it, and had 111y ri.eld off"iCE!l"S :i.nvE•st:iqatE· l::he clall'ld~JE" and the exl:ent l:.o tJJhi.ch :i. ·t affected different areas, and I tJJas told that on avera•Je tt. tJJould have bE! en be tuJ e en 2 5 and 3 0 p e 1" CE!I1t of the lobsl:r::~r Lr'dps in l:hr::~ water that were probably destroyed.

I have bec:!n talking l:o my people this morning, I have talked to the field officers in thP al"E!aS conC('l"necl, and l C:·Hil l:o] d l: h E:' y r e c E~ :i v e d l:. 11 d a t e a b o u t fiftE!E:~n l"eCjUt:!Sl..S fOl'' he]p r·l"OHI fishermen affected. l·hey have been advised of the program we have in place, l":hat of a lobsl:.~:'l'' pot bank which is available to l:hr::~rn. Some have expl"'''SSI'!d an interest in availing of Lhat ser·vice, othE·r·s have not, and that is tA.Jhel"e t l:. s Lands. ThE!

Jobs tel" pot bank is l:hE·re, and LhE!I"I~ is a chal"qE~ tA.Jhich lAJdS est.abLi.shecl, by the way, by the previous Adrninisl:rat.ion. We clid not put l:.he pr·tce l:.aq on 'it, l:he pr·tce t,Jas pul:. on oi.l .. by the ol..hel" s.icle, Ml". Speaker, when l..hey were in No. 4·S WI

Government. The bank is there for the benefit of the people affetted by the storm. Mr. Speaker: for Fogo. The han. the Mr:~mber Mr. Winsor: The Minister, in his answer, has indicated that certain areas did get more than 25 to 30 per cent damage. The Minister is in a position to take the $7.00 fee off' per tTap, and in J.ight of l:hr~ r:ac l:. that l:.he ti"ap bank has only soJ.cl, as oF YE!S 'b:!J"day, 500 to '/00 traps, the reason b~':!ing that fishermen cannot afford it, will the Minister notJJ, because he is in a position to do so, lower or eliminate completely the $7.00 Fee on traps? Mr.

Speaker : The Minister of Fisheries . han. the Mr. Carter: Ml" . Speaker, tAJhat the hon. gentleman is not saying - and I give credit to the fishermen who had the foresight in a great many cases, in fact, .in probably most cases, to have had a back-up supply of lobster tr·aps. You can moan and gJ"oan all you like, but. that is a fact. In many cases as, you would expect, they have 150 pots in the wal:.er and they probably have 100 pots behind the sl:age in the eVE!nL of a storm. And that, Mr. Speaker, is quite prevalent. A great many fishermen hac! the forE•sight to do that.

In cases where they didn't, the lobster pot bank is there for them. 1'1.r._..:,_ ___ ~pg_a k_§! _t:: : The han. the Member for Fogo. M.r. __ : _____ J~iJJ .?. . .£!::. : M r . S p E! a k e r , t hE! storm damage was not only confined to lobster traps; there was consi.clc:!r'able claln<.vje donE! to otht.•r· typE!S of qeal", par·t:icu]al"1y 1urnp n E! t s . What tAla s l: h ''" t::' x t t' n t oF l. he L8 May 3 l, 1. 9 90 Vo1 XLI damage to Jump nr::!l :s, and ·is the Minister going to offer any assistance at. all to fishE!I"ITJE:•n IAJho are lump roe fishermen? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Fisheries . hon. the:!

Mr. Carter: Mr. SpE!akE!l", once again, I do not tAJan t to doump1ay the severity of the damage done to lump nets. I understand l:hat- in some areas there ha s boon considerable damage done, but, aga·Jn, I can on]y tell hjr11 that I think th G! day af::-l:E!I" l:he SlOI"In o c c u I" r· e d , 1 a s t T h u r s d a y , h E! g o t o n his feet in the House and he expected me to have a complete J"eport of every lobsbH' pot lost, every lump fish net Jest, and every bit of da1nage suFfer'E:'d in the storm. ThE! fact of the matter, .is, Mr.

SpeakE!!", in 11'1osl: cases t.he fi.sheJ"rTIE:!I1 cou1dn'l. qel. back on l:he tAJal :.r:!l" unt-. "il Monr~lay I had a r·E•por't rE!acly on past Tuesday. interest question, engrossed He didn't have the then to ask me a because he was l:.oo in the Meech Lake thjng. An Han. Member : (InaudiblE·) . Mr. Speak _~r:_: 0J"ciE:'I", p1:"a:;e! Mr. Cart ~r:: On Wednesday hu a~ .k:: :>d a questi .on to IAJh:i.ch I rep 1i.ecl, ancl I am doing the same thing now. Mr. Speaker: rhe hon. l:h~ '! Membr::>r' for Burin- Placentia West . Mr. Tobin: Mr . Speak t:!r, my question is to the Minister oF Educat.:ion.

Sev(•l"a1 Liln''"S in Lhts House, and outside, the Minister has said thr;:! decision l:o IIIOV(! t.hc· community college headquarters from Bur in to Clarenuille was a ci·.i. f' f i C U 1 t 0 n E:! . ·1 h E! M t" Ill b <::' I" r 0 I" Bel1E!VU<" has pub1 'i.c1y sl:.al :.t"cl l:.hdL No. 4 ~) I~ g

he supports the decision of Government to moue the headquarters from Burin to Clarenuille. Can the Minister tell me why, with confirmation that the decision had already been made, he initiated a White Paper? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Education. han. the Dr. Warren: Mr. Speaker, I would like to indicate to thr:' hon. Member that we did call For briefs and presentations on the White Paper and approximately 100 have been recr:dved. We are nol..IJ in the process of analyzing all of these briefs.

There were quite a nurnbc,~r of letters concerning the moving of the hc:~adquarters from Burin to Clarenville, and fr·om Carbom~ar to Clarenville; there are quite a number of letters arguing that that's not appropriate. But I t..11an t to assure tht::~ hon. Memb':'ln that no final decision has been made; we tJJant to do it right.; we want to reuiel..IJ all the br·iefs and shortly. perhaps t .... Jithin a month, we will be able to announce the Government's decision in this regard. Mr. Speaker: The han. the MernbE~r· for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. Tobin: Mr .

Spr:~akE~r. l:he Minis Ler has al1neacly said in this House that -jt· tJJas a difficult decision to makE~. to moue the ht::~adquartE~rs to Clarenville. I ask thE~ Minister aga.in, wi11 the Minister confirm that the headquarters will be remaining in Salt Pond, Burin? Mr. Speaker : The Minister of Education . hon. t.he Dr. Warren: ME!I'flbe r rnu st. Papt:•r tJ..Jas a Min . Speakt::~r. thE~ hon. know that the White pr·oposal. .It is a L9 May 31, 1.990 UoJ. XLI cliFr--icult dt'Cision to p1nopose l:ht' removal of any headquarters, because we had people in place, and offices.

Th~~ proposa1 was a difficult decision to recommend any movement. No finaJ. decision has been made. All the briefs have been reviewed, and very shortly Government will make t.he dr:~cision on the irnplem~::-r1tation of the White Paper. Ml". ~)peakeln: The hon. the ME:•rnbet· for Burin - Placentia Wost. r:'!.r.-.~-.......... Lo __ i;?..:i,_Q: Mr. Spt~akeln, tJ..Iill l.h1:~ Min-.istel" confi1nrn that tJ..Jhat. hE• :is doing is similar to tJJhat thE~Y did with t:.he officE~ of the Ombudsman, that in order to get. at the Ombudsman, they decided to close the office?

In ordt~ln to gE~t at somE~ PC:'oplE~, both in th~:· Carbo near and Bur·in Headquartc,~lns, l:he b::•st way to do it. is t.o close the Headquarters -.in those communities. Will t.he Minister not confirm that that is his plan? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Education . hon. the Dl". Warren: I arn tE!rllpt.ed not. t-:.o anst..~Jer that. Mr. Speaker, T am ternptecl not Lo answer that quest.ton. l"he decis·i.ons, l::he proposc1ls in 'l..he Wh:it.e Papel" on tAJhat is best:. eclucal:.tonal.ly this Pl"ovoince. a I'"·E:· [- Oln We are at a very difficult time in education in this Province.

We have trE!mr:~nclous nE:~ecls, l..IJE:~ havE' limited resources, and t.he Government. is going to examine all p1nogr·a rns and proposals and propos':~ what is in the best inl..erest, the economic and educal:.iona] int'c~resl:, of the Province. That. is the basis on which these proposals tJJel"e made. Mr. Tobin: You d i. dn' l:. d ''~ n Y it No. 'l-~i 1\9

though. You dtdn 1 t deny i. t . Mr. S~eaker: The han . the Mr::~rnber for Port au Port . Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. In mid or late November, I asked the Minister what the Government 1 s policy was concerning smoking in public buildings belonging to the Province. At Lhat time, Lhe Minister ind icated that Lhe Government would be changing the present policy, and he indicated a preference for non-smoking.

I quote the Hansard wherE' hE! says, 1 We are right notAl considel"ing making the recommendation and we hope to have it in place very shortly. 1 My quest".i .on to the Minister: It is now seven months later. Is l:he Minister sti.lJ. planni.ng to have a smoke-free policy in Government buildings in this Province? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Min. Gilbert: Mr. Speakt,~r. I lAd11 1et Lhe Minister of Health an swer. Mr. Speaker : The han . the Minister of HeaJ.th . Mr. Decker: Thank you, Mr . SpeakE!r.

As my han. colleagUE! pointed out some time ago, the Government is indeed looking at a non-smoking policy for Government bui1cl:i.ngs. However, IAJhon this lAJas made publ.ic as a re sult of that quC'!Stion, that . maybe the han. Me111ber asked, there IAJas a lot of concern generated throughout the Province that. the GovenHnent IAJOuld 1ook into making a broader applical:ion of the law. For LlO May 31, 1990 Vol XLI examplE~, it has be'::.~ n suqgE:!S l:.Hd that we J.ook al: l:hE! super 'rlliH 'kE' l..s, tha l:. tAle look at Lhe schools, dnd that we look at other buildings.

What we are doing now is reviewing legislation from other provinces; we are especially looking at Quebec, lAJhich has quite a pol"i.cy in place . But I cannot anticipate what Government will come up with, other than to say that we are looking into the possibility of bringing in a non-~:;JJiolcinq policy For' pub1ic buiJd :i n~Js, inc]uc\inq the Confederation bu"i.lding and Government buildings. Mr. Speaker: The han. the ME•ITiber' for Port au Port. Mr . Hodder : Mr . Spt:laker, t.hat answer is not quit.E! good enough.

BecausE! the Minis t e r and I IAJa s go i n g to as k ITI y s up p 1 e ITI r::! n l·:. a I" y l.~ o the Minister - has been quite vocal in public about non -smoking, and it :is my opinion l:ha t perhaps we should start at home. Every other lr:: ,g islatUI"e ·- the Houso or=- Commons itself a non -smokinq ins ti tut.ion. and Fede1"al public buiJ.dings, as lAJE!J.l. as aJl Goverrllnr:~n l: buildoinqs in practically all. the provinces across Lhe countr'y. I tAJould just l:ike to ask the Minister what reason would kcE•p Lh L· Mints Lt'r· from doing it he re?

It tAJou1d SE'E!ITI l:o lfiE:', as lAJE•ll, that Foi"Ci .ng pr'ivate inst:itut:.ions Lo do it would be qui.tr:! difficult. But IAJOuld t.he Minister not agr'E:'e thal:. it lAJOulcl be qutte si1Tip1r::! l:o l:1ny l:o do it in pub]i .c bui 'lcl.inq ~; IAJhich are under l:he conl:i"Ol of Lhe Ministe r of Works , Services and rransportation? Mr. Speaker· : rhr::' hon. Lhe Minister of Hea]Lh . No. 4 s I~ 10

MIA. Decke1A: MIA . Speaker, the hon . Member does not have his facts quite right. In actual fact, smoking is pe1Aml.tted in thE! House of Commons, but it is not permitted in Government buildings. But I agree with the principle of what the han . ME!mber is saying. As the han. Member probably knows, I, l:oo, am an avid non·-srnoker. But whenever we talk about b1Ainqing in l~u1E!S and regula l:.ions, 1.ue have to consicle1A the !nights of E:~VeJAyone. We just cannot go lAiith a heavy-hand, we have to make sure that we are not taking away people 1 s rights without a good, solid reason.

So we are approaching this from a very reasonable point of view, Mr. Speaker. I should say a lot of smoke1As, though, are ask:ing Lhat we J;.JouJ.d come in w:H.h a non-smoking policy. I think the good news for the hon. Member, and for the people of the Province, is that it is by no means a dE!acl issue. We are looking very closely at it, but we want to come up with a program which is reasonable so that nobody 1 s rights are unnecessarily trampled, but that in the end everyone w:i.11 bE! able t.o benefit l~l"om a non - srnolcing pl"Ogr·am For l:he whole Pl~ovince. Mr.

Speaker: The han. thE:~ ME!rnbE:~r for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Warren : Thank you very much, Ml". Speaker· . My quest:.ion is to thE· MinistE~r of Fisheries. As the Minister of FishE•rit'S is at.uaJ"e, his Department owns and operatE!S, in conjunction tAli l: h L h E• I_ I A a n d To 1A n q a t FisheJ"iE!S, t.tAIO fish pJ.ant.s in NC\in and Makkovik, and fc•edeJ" Fi.sh Lll May 31, 1990 Uo1 XLI planl:.s in Postvi.11e, HopHda1e <:·\nd Dav:i.s Inlet.

Could the Minister advise if he is considering using one of the middle-distance boats to supply fish to the fish plants in the District, from Makkovik to Nain, this corning summer? Mr. Speaker·: The Minister of Fisheries . hon. thE~ Mr. Carte1n: Mr . Spr:~aku1", [ hopE• to be in a pos:ition, probably l::li=:!Folne l:.hi.s lAJE'ek is oul:, l":IJ be able to rnake an announcement on t.he disposition o·l L:he Four mid-distance vessels. As the hon. ME:Hnbers knot.us, WE:~ callr::.d pr·oposa1s for the purchase of those vessels. We succeeded in attracting two worthwhile of f ers, and 1.ue sold I:.IAJO of t:h:_!Jn.

SubSE!qUE!nt l:o l:hat, lAJe ca-IJ .ecl proposals i"J·'olrl l:he indus l:1ny For the lE:'asing of those vE·ssels. We received, I think, about five responses to the J.easing tender call, and within a Few clays I should be announcing tAJhat l:he decision is on it. Mr. Speaker: The hon. l:he MI::'ITiber For Torngat Mountains . Min. WarJAE:~n : Thank you ver·y much, ~- Sp1:~aker. My st:ipp"leJnenl:aJ"Y l:o th~-,. M:i.n:istE'!\n. Wou1cl l. hc:• M:i n:i s l_E'I" confirm that he has received a pl~oposcll from thE:' Labr·acloJ" Innu:i t .. Association?

IF h r::. has, lAJOllld their proposal bE! also consic\E!l"E!CI when thE:~ Minister· Jnai<Ps his announcement in the nexl coupJ.e of days? Min. Speaker: ThE! hon. Minister of Fisheries . Mr. Carter: Mr. Speaker, l:ell you now thal: all proposals we received h~ve No. 4.5 I thE• can l h t:~ bl: c• n r~ 1 1

considered. Again, he will have to wait a few days, until I am ready to make the announcement. Mr. Speak~?:_r: expired. Question Period has Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given Mr. Speaker: rhe Minister of Fisheries . hon. l:he Mr . Carter : Mr. Speaker, yesterday, in the House, thE~re was a question raised by the Member for' Grand Bank having to do with grants made available by my Department for fishermen's committees, and to do certain things to fishing facilities around l~he Province. I should poi .nt out, Min.

SpeakE~In, that The Small Gr'ants Progr'arn, which is available to fishermen's cornrni ttees around the Province, is adrninisterE~d by the Engineering Division of thE! Department of Fisheries. The purpose of the program is to assist fishermen's committees with repairs to provincially and community owned fishing faciLities. The crit.elnia for delivery of those grants under that program was established by l~he Depart.m,:.>nt some years a•JO, and it is still being followed. I apologize for not having all the information.

Because some of the information that is sought, we have to get it in from our field officE!S and I arn unable to give Lhe han. gE!ntleman, in the House, the number of applications submiLLed. I will have that in Forma tton when we gE!t it in. but l can l~eLl him that since 1985, there have been 508 projects apprOV(!d, r=-or' a Lot.al oF about '~2 rn:illion ..... 50H fo1~ a total cost of 1.1 2 May 3 1 • PJ 9 0 Vol XLI $2 million . He sort of implied in his question that maybe we were favouring Liberal Districts now.

I should tell him that since 1985, even though the then Opposition represented probably more than half of the fishing Districts in Newfoundland, th<::' GovernmE~nt of the day received 65.5 per cent of the total amount of Lhe grants rnade, and l~h~~ L.:Lbe1"als, i.n Opposition, received 33 per cent. Mr. Tobin: Twillingab?. •JOL Lhat rnuch the other day. Mr. Carter: Twi.J.lingat.E!. Ml" . Speaker, to date, in l:hois Yl:'i'lln, has not received one singJe grant, even though there ha ve been eighteen grants made. Theine hav E~ beE!n no approvals For rtAJ i "JJ. ·ing,:'ll~E· D oi. s t I~ i c t .

T!Ad 11 i 11 <.:~ a L e D :i s l .. I" j c l. , since 1985, Jnect:diH'd, I bl=•Ji,,!VI~. a little more than 3 per cent of Lh e total number of gr ants approved. I do not havE• aJ.J. of thE! figuJ"E~s here, but I will. I should t.r:>ll him the five grants wh:i ch were announced, which he reFerr ed to yesterday, were last. year·'s grants, they IAJE!re madE• i'J"O fn 1 as t year·' s Budget.. An _ Han. Member : (lnaucloi.ble). Mr. Carter: T h e In e lAI E~ I" E:· f j, v e • M r· . Speaker. Last year Lhere we re one hundred-and-something grants given; rwillingate certainly got no morE• than it s share.

I raoi] to understand what the hon . Mf:'lllb,:-r opposite has again st Twi11oi.ngate . Last week they were complain ing bE!Cause we go t the fish plant. reopened, and now Lh ey are complaining becau sE· IAJE ! <H'f' qoi.vi.n<_:) the poor old flAJi.11inqat.er 'S a Few do11al~s. These gr 'a nts, l shouJ.cl p 0 in t 0 U t. , MIn . ~3 peak U In , cH' C• l.UO I" l: h about $3,000 each . No. 1~5 rn 2

M1~. Speake!~: I want to J~emincl thE• han. l~hE• Minish!!" of- Fisheries, in giving Answers to Qut:'stions he should proct::~ed to give the answers to the question at hand and not get carried away by extraneous matters. Mr. Carter : (Inaudible). Mr. Speaker: The Minister is finished, though. fhe han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. ~!.:: .... :. __ 1$_tg.l1.~D.fl_ : Than k y o u , M r . Speaker. Some days ago, the Member for Menihek District, in Labrador, raised questions t~o.Jith respect to an illegal hunt of waterfowl by Innu from the Province of Quebec.

I have some inFormation I would like to provide in response, because at that time I had given a commitment I 1.uould br·ing information into the House with respect to his questions. The First qUE!Stion the M.:~rnber as b~d was whether we were forewarned that illegal hunting or poaching tJ..Jas to occur in the Menihek LakE• aJ~ea? I believe that. t.1.1as the question. OUI" offici.als in LabJ"ador West obtainE!cl a pi"E•ss relt:!aSE• on May 17 conc1:!nling this matte!~.

ThE! prE!SS rEd.ease tJ..Jas issued by an Innu group in Sept·- -Iles, and you J.ui11 bE• abJ.e to see from the English version which I w:i.l.l table, the transJ.ation of that pi"ess release, there was no mention of Menihek Lake or any o l:her pal" l: of Labr·ador.

The statement clearly states the individuals plan to go to Schefferville, Quebec, to hunt gE!ese, and it goes on to state: 1 Th(~' s e a c ti.ons i:li"E:! in 1 ine IAii th a ser'iHS of OCCUI''rE!nCeS lAJhich makes l"f:'J.at:i.ons ITIOI"B and ri'IOI"(' tE!IlSe L13 May 31, 1.990 Vo1 XU bl::!tlAIE!C::!n thE• poJ.ice fol"Ces and the and :i.n this Innu in Quebec country. 1 As you are aware, Mr. Spr::'akE:~r. the enforcemE.~nt of the migratory b'ii"d regulations is under Federal jurisdiction, whether it 'is in Quebec or Labrador or, for that matter, any part of Canada.

Our wi.ldlife officials in Labrador did contact the I~CMP and l:he Can ad l an Wildlife Service of(icials and offered to assist any investigations in Labrador. l Fact , onE! of o u I" tAli ] ell i I- e p f! o p l•:> frorn westel"n l...abi"adoln caJ"I"iecl out, or participab:!d .in, an ae1" i al pt.'lt.J"ol with a 111UITlber of LhE! Canad-ian Wildl-ife Service. rhat LI.Ja s in a fixed wing cd.1" craft:. t.hat didn 1 t land. I understand, adcli tional1y, Ml". Speake!", that tAJhal: app1~ared t.o be duck b'1 Lncls or geE!St:' bJ.Jnds, J.UC::>I"e spot.l ..

Hcl, bul.. no hunting a c l:. i vi t y t"Ja s unclE! n"Ja y at the tirne. Now, subsequE•nt to that --· and I IAiill table l:.he infor·1nal·:ion I h<:-\VI:! her·e, Ml". Speaker, a1ong tJ..Ji.t h Uw version of the press release subsequent to that, it has been said to rne that th"=~ I~CMP and L.hE! Canadian Wildlife Service had made some decision not to go in and car'I"Y out L.heil" lE!c:Jl-11 ITii'tnda l. r::• t:.o cl o a sf:' a Inch and l. a y c h i'.l I" q e s , ··ll'l cl so on.

And as IAIE' had ofleJ"ecl t-.o assist, l:he ck!c.is ·ion tAJi'.lS 111ad.::• by t.he chiHf E·nfai"Cernen ·t of(':icr::•i" not l:o send our t.IAJO rrwn, unaJ"rn(~d lriE!n, in to face sorrwthing which cou1d have been in excE!SS of 200 Innu who were in possession of - An Han. Member: Fil"E•di"ITI~> ' Mr. Kelland : illegally obtained I think it was a based on that. f i I" E' a r· rn s a n cl lAJatE!I"fOtAil; dnd qoocl cli=:•cision, i-IOIAJE!l)t•r, [ IAr-i 1.1 say, though, that l a111 no l. No. 1~5 r~ 13

satis FiE!d that suFficient ac l.::i on, or adequate action has beE:~n takE:~n. and, based on the information I have just given, the fact that the RCMP appar·entJ.y, or reportedly, and the CWS, reportedly, decided not to go in and take any action, and it is their mandate to do so, I will now contact my Federal counterparts with that information, and ask the counteJ"parts why _ .. because we IJJou1d have ass is t.od, had we been reque sted, in the confrontation; 1:~ven though short of rnanpOIAJE!r, I think we would have probably scraped up, between all of us, maybe seven people, to face something like 200 people - why some action wasn't taken, if everybody had been forewarned, indeed, at least the officials had been, and perhaps what possible action might fo1.1ow from what has already happened, and what possible action the Federal authorit:iE:'S 1nay take For future occurrences .

Because obviously, as I said in the House, I really find it criminal, in more ways than one, that people would slaughter our waterfowl resources or wildlife resources to make a political point. I say 'political 1, not in the partisan sense, but a polit:icaJ. point by a group IAJho have claims, and belie,.ve they have special rights in certain parts of our country. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table this information. Mr. Speaker: Just a comment tAJith respect to this particular item of business, Answers to Questions For which Notice has been Given.

CE:'nE!rally, we fol1ow l:he sarne rules oF the House as with respect to answers, that the answers should be bd.E:~f. bE!Cause Mirdst.e·rs rnust rernernbE!I" l.:hat Mernbe:!rS of the~ Oppos'.i.tion don't gel a chanCE! l:o respond. So tJ.Je should try l:o be L.1.4 May 31., 1990 Vol XLI as bJ~iE!f as poss:i .bJe. ThE'! ot.het" all:ernat.'ive, of cout~se~. ·.is tu do it by a M'inisteJ~ia1 StatE!rrtE•nt. If the anstJJer to the quE:~s'l::ion app~:!al"S to be J.ongE!I" thctn nOJ"IIJal, then the Minister can do it by Ministerial Statement. Petitions M r .

S pea k e r : r he h o n . l.·.l'h:· ME ~ I'll be I" for Torngat Mountains. Ml". Warren: Thank you vet"Y ntuch, Mr . Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I have a pel:.itoi.on to present. The prayer of the petition is: "WE~ are concerned tJJith the heaJ.th carE! as prE!senL:1y available through Grenfell RegionaJ. Health Services, and we call upon the Govet"niiH.'Il t Lo h.:tve a pubJ.ic inquit"Y into hea] l.h Cdt "e. It. is strnilal" t:o pet.it.:ions I have:! ~resented to this House on numerous occasions.

I think it is evidenl: l:hroughout NetAJfoundland and J...abr·aclor !.hat the rural arE:'as of our Pt"ovoince nE!ed bE:~tLer l1ealth car·t::~. I think t.l'l(!I"E! was an indication a couple of days ago from my colleague for Grand Bank tJJho aske'C~ a qu(•stion to Lhe Minister of Health concerning health care in the Grand Bank area. Mr. Speaker, I no t:iced todc:ty in the media that thE• phys:id .an dOlAJI'l there expressed a concern of heaJ.th carE! in rE!rnote aJ"E!aS. And the same l:hoing applies to the coast of Labradot" cl] 1 Lhe tJJay frorn L'Anse-au-C1a:ir to Nain. Mr.

SpE!akE•r, I l:.hJnk the Gover·nrnent of the day is sittoing on a very valuable report that:. t;~.Jas cornp:i .] E!cl For the Crunf1~] 1 I~E!q-iona1 He a ll:h Set"ViCE!S, but t.hc•y have noL tnuvecl on Lhis report. Mr. Speaker, Lh-is No. 4.5 f\ lfl

report calls For two boards in Labrador. That in itself will see the administration of the Grenfell Regional Health Services being better controlled, and naturally better for the patients who need better health care. Mr . Speaker, if you talk to people. whether they are in Port Hope Simpson, Paradise River or Davis Inlet, you tAJill find they have probl0Hns. they have conce1"ns with t h ('! hE! a 1 t h c a I" e . in part: .ic ular JAJith l:he aclllrinis'l:r'al·.iv0' section. Mr .

Speaker. thE!rE! is no doubt that the letter the Minister received from Gary Mitchell a number of days ago sums it up very. very easily. The Minister is more concerned now in pork barrelling, making sure that he tJJould 9E! 1:. his buddies or his Frt<:'ncls on th~:· boa1"d. Looktn~l at the list of the new board rnE.HTJb0~rs who were appointed a few weeks ago, we will noU .CE:' that the Minister scraped the bottom of the bar1"el in places. Mr. Speaker. looking for a person with political affiliation to the particular party.

Now I think this is shamE!ful t.o..JhE!n JAJe haVE! to st.oop that 1ow to 1nake SUI"E! that we can gE•t t"epi"E!SE!ntatiues to sit on such very important boards. Mr. Spt:>aker. l:his petition is from the Community of Nain. I would say tha l: the people in Nain are concernE•d, as WE•ll as thE! peoplE• in Hopedale and Postville, that this MinistE!r and this GoUE!rnment during the last month have dE~cided to hold back on the construction of the nursing clinics in Hopedale and Davis InJ.et. Mr. SpE!akE!r. I J.o..Jould like to know IJJhy?

Tomor'rotAJ is the first day of June and tenders are not even called yet for the engineering part of the l 1. s May 31, 1')90 Vol XU two nursing stations. I cannot sE:!e, Ml". Speai<E!I"', un]e~;s t:h:i s GoUE!l"niTIE!Il't is planning to call tenders sometime in September or October and then it will be too late to even commence construction this year of those two nursing stations, because naturally with the geography of the area it t.o..Jill be impossible to do any groundwork because of the frost in the ground. Mr. Speaker.

I tAJould l.ike l:o l"eFer t.hj s pet·:i.t.ion to l:.h<:• Depdl" Ln1en l: l.o lAJhich il: l"elat1::!S. I JAJOIJI.d hop1~ that:. thE! Min:i.!>LE!I" of" Hea1t.h J.o..J:i.] 1 moue very quickly on supporting a revisal of health car'e E~l.ong thE! Labrador coast. Subsequently an improvement in health care wi11 rnE:~an be l:.ter living condi t.ions r:or all concernE!d. Thank you VE!I"Y much, Ml". SpElakel" . Orders of the Day Mr . Baker : Order 24, Mr . Speaker . Mr. Speaker: rhe dilemma . He has Paper. Oh, no, I it. Speakt.~r is J.os l:. t:.hE! arn SOI"I"Y, in a Or'cl e I" I hau1:!

Order Ztl, wh:ich is S('•cond l"eacloin~1 0 f a 13 i 11 . II An A c t r 0 n Ill('! n d n1 (! Mineral Holdings Impost A c [_. II (BillNo. 27). Did I read the wrong one? rhe hon . in any Bill. thE:' Minis Le1" of Finance. event, to introduce his Dr. Kitchen : SpE:'akE!r . This Bi11, "An Mineral Holdinqs silflple measur-e. No. 4-5 Thank Acl:. To Illlpos l~ Wha l:. you, Mr. AITie ncl Thc,:• Act II is <:'I IAJC::• dl''e In':.

proposing to do, Mt". SpNtkE•r, is l:ht"ee things. We aJ"e proposing to increase the rate of the impost as we announced in the Budget Speech. It l1as bE!E!n $3 per acrE! fJ"om 1981 until 1989, and now we are proposing to increase it to $6.00 for 1990, $7.00 for 1991, $8.00 for 1992, and so on, until it reaches $12.50 in 1996 per hectare in each year following. That ·is one Pl"Oposal, Mr. Speake!". Secondly, in ClausE• 2, we want: to increase the carryforward period for approved exploration expenditures From two to five years. Thirdly, Mr.

Speaker, we would like to provide that the owner of a rn:inE!raJ. holding may apply to the Minister of Mines and Energy to have the mineral holding converb:ld to a license undE!r thE! Mineral Act 1976, either a ground stake license or a rnap stake license. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr . Speaker: The han. the Member for Mount Pearl. Mr. Windsor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would simply likE! to note that: thE! Minister vel"Y quickly has doubl~;;!d l:.he minE!ral impost Ft"orn $3.00 to $6.00 pel" acJ"e. HE! is going to triple i.t. in thrGe more year·s, and quadruple it t·.hree rrJOJ"E! year·s after that.

I do not know what the justification for this is, Mr. Speaker. It t.uas thirty-five cents per hectare in 1978 which t.uas vr:~ry low. It t.uas increased to fifty-five cents in 19'79, $1.15 in 1980, $1 .9S in 1981, and $3.00 in 1981. It has held thE!re since then. Th('H'H is some justification for some increase now, but to double it now, l:hen trj_p}E! i.t i.n lht"ee yr::•at"S t:irne, and quadruple ,, it tht"ee year·s L16 May 31, 1990 Vol XLI aft.E•r that, appears l..o be a pr·f:!t.l.:y heavy rneasut"'=' · Mayl:lic! th0' M'.inisl.:er of Mines would like to address this.

I am surE! he is going t:o want l:.o s pE!ak to this Bi J 1, be:l. ng so involved in it For so many years. I think perhaps he can give us some insight as to what the imp 1 i cat. ions wi 11 bE! on so rn e of the major mining cornpaniE:'S. ThE! real question, I guess, that need to be asked here are Lwo t. h i n g s : f i t" s t o r· a ] J. , s o rn o o r· l. h e srna 'ller· companies Lhat dt"e oul~ cloi.ng sornE:• explol"at-:i.on dr· ·e hdvj _nq r1~al diFFicu1t.ies t.oday in r·aisinq the finances necessary to do exploration.

Now. we have enjoyed, over thE! past: ttAJO ot" t h r e e y "='a I" s , l" e c or d l 1:! 'H~ 1 s o ·F exploration in this Province, thanks to the policies Lhal.: the pi"evious Administration put ·in place. WE! have opc•necl up lar'~1'"' t.r·ack~:; o-f land and made it available For exploration in this ProvinCE!. It has been an extremely worthwhile program, we have rnadn great process, and some discovet"ies hi'1V1:! resulted from the fact that exploration has increased so dramatical1y. I tAJou1d J.iki:~ l.:o ask l:he Ministel" of Moine~> tAJhat impact Lhis w:i1l have not. ..

J, pat"l :i.cuJ.arly otl l~hf~ ~;rna11er companies IAJho do not nolAJ have t·:.he satne [inanc-:l.a] opportunities as well, because some changes in rederal 10~gislation a year or so aqo, 111ade it very difficult For flow -through Financing, flow-through shares, For rninE~ral E'xpJ.orat:'i.on :in Canada, and rnade it. much less Favourable f' r 0 ITI a t a X b ('H1 E• f i t p 0 :i. n t 0 f' V i lc! lA I . Maybe Lh1~ Minisl:er oF M·ines tAJould address those two aspects?

What lAJi.11 be.=! l:he financia1 itnplical:.ion, particular on t.lw srna]ler junjor mining explora~ion companies, and particu1ar1y in light of the c h a n •J e i n F 1?. d E• r· a 1 l E~ g i s 1 a l: L o n ? WE· No. 4 5 R:l6

are now allowing it to go For five years. Maybe the Minister will tell us tJJhy tJJe now n10:1ed it to go for five years? We at"E! stl"iking out the tJJords, for two years, and substituting the words, for five years. It presently said, any excess of approved expendi turE!S may be carried forward as approved expenditures and applied towards reduction (inaudible) Well, that is pt"obabJ.y a favourable thing to the companies, I tJJould think. That would give them an opportunity to sp1"c~ad expE!ndit.Ul"es over that period. Maybe the Minister would address those questions whe!n he rises, Ml". Speaker? Mr.

Speaker: The han. thE! Minister of Mines and Energy. Dr. Gibbons: Thank you, Mr . SpE!akel" . In addressing the first part of l:he qu"estion, tJJhy go to $12.50 now, over an eight year period? The answer is quite straightforward. Presently, at this time, and for the last decade, thE! requirement undel" the Mineral Act for any claim stake is that a company spend $12.50 per hectare in exploration expenditurE!S, so by going th1"ough with these changes now For the mineral impost areas we are putting a1"eas held under long·-tet"m J.eases on thE• same basis as <'H'E!aS that are going to be held under mineral claims.

So a company that now otJJns a large ar'ea of land for minerai expJ.oration, for example the Abitibi - Price grant down through central Newfoundland, is now being told that over the next eight years, you are going to have to spC:Htd, For minE!ral explor'ation, the same amount by 1996 as a company is presently required to spend today on a mineral claim, 1_1'7 May 31, 1.990 Vol XLI put. t.hem on t.he same bas ·is, ~;o t.ve are encouraging companies that have these long - term holdings, some of them large like the Abitibi one, to do more exploration. This is not primarily a tax measure.

TlT:i.s is, primarily from my perspective as the MinistE!r oF Mines, an exploration inducement measure, because the companiE:~s must C:dLher E:!Xplore Ol" pay a t.ax 01~ give up the land, and this is going to l'lldkE• thE!m C::!Xp}OI"E' OY' q:.iVE' Up lhe land. Othc~l~t.~Ji.sc~ l:hcc'Y h,:·\VC:! t:o s t·ay on thE! satTlU basi .s as -rhe Mi.nel"a1 Act. So that 'is the:: l"eason For going to that $ :12.50, in Lhe~;E! annual one dollar per year incl"E•ases star'ting this YE'!etl" tAlith the three dollar jump for this year. The next question regarding Lhe impact on SlTta11 rn:i.nj nq con1pan'.i.P';.

ThE:~re is no irnpact. al:. al"l on l::hE! netAI sma11 nr.in:i ng cornpaniE·s because they a11 have thc:dr Jand Ul'lciE•l" rhc:• Minel"al Act.. They havE:' claitns under The Mineral Act and this impost does not apply to claims that are held under rhe Mineral Act. It do<~'s not apply at a] l . So there is no ·tmplicat:ion for Lhe cancellation of the CEIP Proqram by the Fc:'dE!l"al Govc:!rntT1unt on tht:'Se cornpard.E!S. None al. <.'t:ll .

As a tnaU:Ol" of fact., if anyLh"Lnq, it might be positive For Lhem i f some oF the larger land holdings are rE·1E:•ased as a l"E!SUlt of Uds change. r he imp 1 i c a l: i o n s for l:. he c o rn p iHl i e s that hold the J.and, of course, at~e thC:~re. T"hey eithE•r h.::tV(' l:.O explorE! or pay or drop Janel. Ancl that is the t.vhole inLE!nl:. oF thts act in the first place. The carry Member For two ~ears No. t~S Fol"tAIC\t"d thtnq. as l:.hP Mount: Pc:>drl sa t d, i''I"OITl Lo ftvr::! yea1"s is pul"elv 1n?

that, an i.nduCE!Hlent:. t.o help thE!m spend money now if they have a good prope1n ty, and they can carry it forward and hold the land fo1n a while as they do a thorough assessment of that property. So that is a positive benefit for any company that holds any lands in this area. I think that covers it, Mr. Speaker. 'Min. Speak e1n: for Meniht::-k . !'1r .... :.._. _ _B, . .!._§_Q_Q .. ~ : Mr. Speaker.

The hon . the Membe1n Thank you very much, I can agreE! in principle with the theory put forward by the Minister with regard to encouraging the companies owning large tracts of land, encouraging them to spend 1no1nE! money in tc-xploration and, of course, then hopefully down the road what you set~ is development of·a rrdne. Of course, we all know that as an industry mining has become the leading economic generator in this· Province. It is approaching now a $1 billion industry. It is the number one economic generator in this Province.

And, of course, I replnE!Sent a DistJnict that prodUCE!S about three -quarters of that revenue in the mining sector. So it is very importc.'lnt that tAJhen we do have mineral holdings imposts. and lA.IE! do have new taxes or impost on mining companies operating or indeed holding land tracts, that lAJe sr:'e it can have an affect on development and operating mines.

As you notice in the Budget that tJJas brought down thPre was a payroll tax pJ.aced on mining operators in this country. in thois P!novince, and, of couJnSE!, that. was a huge tax burden in c o rn p a r i s o n to IJJ h a t t: h i s p a r ·U . c u 1 a r 1..18 May 31, 1990 Vol XU tax is. A1though th is is a t:lnernE!ndous increase and I can S:c't~ the purpose in Lhe sense that it does encourage more exploratoion and E!ncourages companiE!S to spend more money to look For minerals and deVE!lop the rnineraJ.s .

In rny own District we have a company that is out exploring this year. looking to do a Further exploration looking for the mineral graphite. Of course ·, about rtft-.een miles atAJay from Lht::~ir palnl':i.cular· c!E•posil.. t h e r e i. s a nd n e b Ed n g d (' v e 1 o p E' d i n the Province of QuebE:~c l~o rn.i.rH~ and process graphite and that is about a $30 million development occurring this year. There ois about $5 million or $6 rnilJ.ion already spent there. This year they are hoping to proceed with the actual concentrator dt~VPloprnE!nt. [ lAIOUJ.d bE!

IIIOlni:O encouraged and so would all lhe residents of this Province, I think, if this particular Administration could see FiL to put into legisJ.ation some type oF legislation that, if indoed ·it. lAJas going to encourage more development or explorat.i.on work, that it could e~courage more exploration of the type Lhat is occurring oin western Labrador this surnmer . There has been about.: a coupltc! of million dollars already spen~ in this graphite deposit ouer a number of y ('a r s in t h (! M i 1.1 s Lab· area.

The particular developers are looking For assistance to see indeed if they can go ahe ad and f.i.nd a suitable quanl.:ity ~nd quaJ.ity of graphite. They know that the initial reports state that t:he qua1ity j s of a ht~~her grade than what is about Fi.flE!en miles cHAii'lY i.n a siJJJ:'i1ar· t.ype o·F t:er-r-a:in, and l:hey knoJAJ LhaL Uris

part i c u] a r cl E' posit -i. n L 1·1 e No. 1~5 1ns

Newfoundland portion or the Labrador· poJ"t.ion of l~he Pl"ov:ince, is a higher quality and thE~.Y are looking to see if they could develop this mining property and thus create more employment for our residents. Of course, we recognize that in the province of Quebec, if this mine is developed we would probably, in all likelihood, see some commercial spin off in lAJE!S lt:!l"n Labr·aclor, and suppliE!l"S and that type of thing, but the actual Nnployrn~;;~nt in tiH' mines, I would think wouJ.d bE• J.argeJ.y giVE!n to the people in the province of Quebec, the citizens of that province.

There are probably a lot of them now living up in Ferrnont and that area, who would like to see their people employed in the mines, but I know .that there is goi,ng to be some benefit in ou1n area.

So I can see !:.hat what the Govelnnment should be looking at, as a recommendation to the MinistE!r, what they should be looking at is, if they are going to impose these new tax mE!asures, this is the second one now on mim~s, and what bothers mE:~ is that they are corning in with these netAJ taxes, increased tax bui"den on the mining indus try, and while "it is indeed t he number one economic g t:! n ~;:;I" a l:. or :l n· L hE! P l" o vi n c e , you cannot place a total tax burden on min:ing companies. You have to be concerned that you are not just taxing a company.

A company is not just a piece of paper registered in Delaware, a company is cornpost:=!d of a lot of minel"s, ITIE!n and women working in the industry and the payroll tax is a point in case.

I think that. poss"i.bly r·ather than call it lht:' health and post-secondary education t·:ax, tAJhei"IO'as, I beliE•ve it is ti.rriE! to pi"obably J.ook at, if 1..19 May 31, 1990 Vol XI...I you ai"E! go :i ng to :i.ITIPOSE! a nelAJ tax or· anotl"li:H' tax bUi"dE!n on 111in :i. ng opE!I"atOI"S and mining cornpcHd.es "in -this Province, what you shou1d bE! indeed doing, is, probably corning in with some-thing that could be considered a diversification fund tax, and possibly maybe even a resource depletion fund tax, and that I feel would be a lot better in the sense that pE•opJ.e lAJho ai"E' presently E:Hnployt':!d in a part.".icuJ.ar industry, m i nj.n~J, lAJf:! knot~-.J that· fi"Orn t:=!Xper"iE•nce l:.hat: people t~.Jho a1nr:• E•rnpl.oyecl "in t he ".i.nclu~; t .I"Y Lend to stay .in l~he inclus"Li"'y. ltJE! have seen peopJ.e leave an area that produced a lot of wealth in this Province, in Buchans, we have set:Hl that mine, that resou1nce, completely depJ.etE!d and thE• peopJ.e left devastab;:!d economically, l~he area devastated economically and the people themselves devastated.

But !:.hey have gone on to other areas. We have qujt:e a Few oF them residing in our District. They s~em to stay in the :industry, so, I tAJould argut::' that those people, the people from BE! L1 Island, the peopJ.e frorn ·saie Verte, they come to liv~;;~ in our area, tAJOl"king aga.i.n "i.n the rn.i.nes and I would urge that !:.his GoVE!rnnwnt look at.. any netAI taxes lAJhich th~"'!Y art'' going l:.o i.1npose IAJould qo to a ~;pecial fund ca] 1 c•cl a resotu·ce deplC' l· ion l-u1·1,.1 Ol" diversification f und.

I think it is VE'I"Y neces~>ai"'V to have !:hat l:ype ol lhing. ll:.' s something that a single industry town such as Labr0dor City and Wabush; we need that l:ype of thing , we n C' ''' d to diversify . You hear' -· it.' s a cornrnon buzz IAJOI·'d on that sidE! or~ l~he House llOlAJ lAJht:'n they talk about what:. they are going to do because of the devastation :i.n the f :i.shing ·industt"y, but Uwy don't ~;cc•tn l~o a s s o c t a t E• i L tAl i l: h t.<.J h a l.· c d n h l'l p p (;! n No. '~5 I~ 1 ')

in the mining industry, although it has happened all around us in Bell Island and it 1 s - An Hon. MembE!r: ThE!Y neE!d a new Member down there . Mr. A. Snow: They need a new Member. They may indeed get the opportunity if the Premier were to call an election they might indeed get the opportunity to select a n e uJ M E' tn b e r • a n d I IAJ o u l d h o p E! t h a t somebody of the:>. calibJ~e ol t:he Mird.ste1~ of Soc:l .al Services lAJouJcl come down thE!re and we tAJould see what would occur.

But in the meantime. in talking about this new tax that he is so fast and quick to jump upon, to impose upon the people of western Labrador, w hi 1 e he doe s n 1 t tAl a n t to g i v E:~ a n y benefits from his particular Departrnc::>nl: to wes tE!rn · ·.Labrador. such as to the crisis shelter, maybE! if he would look aFter t:hat we can start looking after taxing the mining industry. Mr. Speaker. I think it is important that we consider Funding, if we are going to tax, if indeed you are going to increase the tax burden upon the mining industry per se.

If you are going to put that increased burden upon the miners of this Pl~ovinCE! you should pul:. a special fund in place for a I~E!SourCE! dc:>.plet.ion fund or diVE!rsiFicat:.ion fund. I think it 1 s irnpor·tant. I know what the people oF western Labrador went through whE!n we had a problem, a global economy and our production levels went down in thE! mid 80s. in the early 80s and mi .d 80s. WE' had J., 000 people in thE! primary sector alone, in the mines, 1,200 actuaJ.]y, 1.,200 people lAJho lost their jobs in l:hE! mini nq indus try in Wc.:tbu s h and Labrador City, and that was devas l.:ating.

So it is necess<:uny, I 20 May 31, 1990 Vol XLI I be1oieve, t:o have that typ(' of fund, and I think that i~ is generally agreed by most people. especially l'ibE!ral thinkers - t:.hat is smalJ. 11 1 11 li.bE,raJ. thinkers that there should be some type of diversification or resource depletion fund in resource based industries - and that is what this is - where it is a non-renetAJable resource. It is very important that that fund be in place when the resource has been depJeted.

While this particular Bill does not address l:.his parl:.icular l:.i'llo:Oiny or suggestion of lAJhat thE! nE!lAJ tax measures should be by this Pro v i n c e • I t hi n k i t i s s o ITI E! t h J n g that has l:o be consider·ed, and the:' fact that this tAJho1E! f'J~ovincE! generates such a r·ev<-?.nue From i.t; this whole Province gets a benefit F r om t h e r e v e n u e s b e i n q g e n E! r a l:. e d in the rn:ining i.ndus t:.r·y i.n lAIC'S Lc:>l "n Labrador.

WhE!n the day come's. dl1d thE!rE! is going to be c.~ clay, E'VE:!I''Y day we dig il~on ore froi'n the pits in Wabush and the pits in Labrador City, the Carol projE!Ct, :is a day closf.:~r to the deat.h 6f Lhose mineS. f'he1ne lAJi.ll be a clay lAJh~~n thosE' rni.nes wi11 oper·atE' no moJ"E!, as sure as we are sitting in l.·.hi.s House today. We have seen mining towns north of u s • i n S c h ~:!1 · F e In v i 1 l e • ~: lll.l t d o t.u n ; started in 1.954, I believe Lhe first shipment CiHne ouL oF Schefferville.

MuJ.roney was President o-r- The InHl Ore Co1npany of Canada while that t:.own shut down. whi .le Lhat rnine tAJas clost:!d. That is to the nor·th of Labrador City and Wabush . We have seen the cornmunil:y t.o lhE! southwest of us, called Gagnon, crec~ted around t.he salfle l:.irrli :' as Labrador City and Wabush. That:. rntnc:! op,:>r·al :.ed by qcM. (Quobec CaJ~ti.E!In M:'i.nlnq) uJe have:' SE'CI'l thc:tt . No. 4-5 1~20

mine shut. down and that: comrnunity bulldoZE!d. I have talked to l:hE• people. Quite a few friends of mine lived and worked in those communities, and I know the devastation that occurred, not to the towns per se - An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. A. Snow: Yes. they have been bulldozed. They bulldozed the houses and the bu:i.ldings. torE! up the stJ~et:!"l:s and . grassed HH:!IIt in and that type of thing. But the P"='rsonal devastation that occurTed to these people when they lost their jobs and their houses and there was no purpose to the community, there was no raison d'etre for their community.

We havE:~ seen historically in this Province the despair of people when they have seen their livlihood removed from them because a non-renewable resource had been completely removed From thE! ground. or was too expensive to remove. Thus we have seen mines which could no longer operate.

So it is important, if people produce for thirty to forty years in a particular industry and the lAJhole province derives an economic gain and benefits from it, that whE!n they are pr::~rsona11y devastated, losing in a lot of caSE!S their J.i.fE! savings JAJhich had beE•n put as equity int:o a house, and by the trauma of having to move, uproot and take their farnJJ.ies to a completely new area of this country. a specific fund is in place to diversify the J.ocal economy, such as Bell Island, such as possibly Danie1's Harbour, Buchans and St. Lawrence. I think with a bit of forward thinldng, oJ~ srnaJ.J.

"1" 1ibere:d. thinking, iF lAJ(! at~~:~ inder::'d going t.o increasE• thE! tax but~den on l:.ho 1,_21 May 31, 1990 Vol XU m:i.ning cotnpcotntr=!s, OJ" the rnj nr:•t"s, because that is reaJ.ly lAJho you dre taxing - when you impose a new tax on a mining company. you arE! really taxing the rn:i.ners. That is who you are taxing. br::~cause that is who the mining company is; H:. is miners mining a resource tJJh".ich belongs to al1 thr:' people of the province.

I believe that a person who invests their timt:! within the community and working in the mines, they shou1d have sollJI:' aclclecl protection for thE! day l:.heJ~e is no rnore purpose to that particular co rnrnunity. So I would urgE! the Cabin10!t, and rnorE! specificaLly thE! M:lrdstE•r of Mines, to consider that any further tax increases would onJ.y be considered if they are, inde(!d, into such a thing as a rE!SOUJ"ce depletion Fund or a diversification fund. Now these have been talked about in this Province and in t.his count.t"Y fot" years and years.

We h<:we had different peop1e put Forward different proposals, but, of course, thE!Y have,, aLl fal.len on dr::~af ears.

I arn hoping that any new additiona1 buJ~den, such as thr:~ burden that was placed with the payroll tax on the ntird.nq operators of western Labrador, th:i.s nr:•IAJ buJ"clen on thl:o JTtoi nE!t"S :i.n W(:~stern Labt"ador, 1.'::> p::•r' C1.:•nl: on thE• people employed :in Lhe m:inoi nq industry, 1. 1) per c1:!nt of" t·.he payroll. is a new tax on these miners in westE•rn Labrador, and it is going to take from western Labr·ador additional revenue, apart frorn what they already generated tAJithtn the econotny of Lhis Province in previous years, an additional ~n trd.llion a yt::'dr, approxirnateJ.y.

I could agree to increas:inq that tax, to put that t a x at ~f> 3 rn :l. l J. :i. o n , :l f i t· tAJ r::· t" E· p u t.. into a diveJ~s·.iFical:ion Fund to d:i.veJ~sify the econotny in lAJI':·~;l..et"n No. 45 I~ 21

Labr'ador. Min. Efford : (Inaudible) this year . Mr. A. Snow: I do not agree with the tax this year, because it does not go into a diversification fund, it does not go into a resource depletion fund. This is a non-renewable resource, a non-renewable resource you are removing from the ground, from l:he ea1nth, frorn the Province. I bel.oiE~v~~ it: should be that any new taxes have to put a bHnE!fit back to the community tJJhich develops that revenue which you are able to tax.

The problem, of course, t.t.lith increasing all these taxes, all the time, is that iF you place too much of a burden on the mining industry and the people in the mining industry, you wil.l kill the indust1ny. The arl: of taxation, I supposE~. cou1d be colnpalned to th(:' art oF plucking the down from a goose. You take a CE!rtain amount out, but not enough to kill it. And you can kilJ. the mining industry, if you tax the mining industry too much.

While this year it has becomE! thE! number one economic generator, the one single industry in this Plnovince, l:he lE•ading indust:1ny in this Province, $1 bjllion Lhis year, I do not believe the Government should be taxing them 'l:o the hilt lAJith t:his additional $3 million this year. AnothE!r one corning now in The Impost Act, although I agree in principle with this Impost Act, I think the payroll tax is ill-conceived, unlc::~s s it tAJere to be pu shed directly into a diversification fund or a resource depletion fund . Now, let me minutes with diversiFication speak l"E!9dlnd Fund.

For a to I l: Few l:he is irnpor 'tanl :. t.o an ar 'ea, E!SpE!Ci<:-~11y L22 May 31. 1990 Vol XLI an arE!a such as I Ji .vr: ' i.n, i.n western Labrador, an area which can bE! considE!re~d i.soJ.atecl :i.n the sense of geography, yet: has a tremendous potential for further development in tourism, having just been a new gatE!Way added to this Province, in the senSE! that a road from Quebec has bE!en opE!ned and people who live on the eastern seaboard now haVE! the opportunity of moving into Labrador via the fouln whE!E'l t:lnaff.ic rnodr::!, l:.hi~ L Js a c a r .

A n d lAJ ~~ a 11 k n o tAJ , o F c o u r· ~:; e , hot.t.J itnpor't.ant thc:-1t :is; il .. br::!corne s a 1 o t c heap E! r· r'· or· a r a nri 1 y to vacation or', i.ndE!ed, pE!opJ.e who want to come out and havE :! a rH:'W sense of adventure, moving into western labrador and central Labrador for access to the hunting, fishing an d the wilderness areas which are available to them.

I beliE!Ve '.iF t..his paylno11 l:ax had been a diversificab .on fund, and we could haue that fund t.uh:Lch c o u 1 d be d r at.t.m u p o n by 1 o c a 1 entrepreneurs, we could possibly even aJ.J.ow peoplE· frorn the Island portion of· the Provinc1:! to access this parU .cu1ar fund, if thr: :! money tAJerl=! investE•d in Labrador, of cou1nse, to diVE!rsJ.fy the r::!conorny. Now that is the secret, to divE•rsi .f'y t:he ccon otny so t.hi.'l t :it is not l:i E!d s l:ric l:.ly l:o lh e rwi.n i.ng industry per se.

Becaus e, as I rnent.ion(~d earlier, thlc!l"e is goj _nq to cornE! a clay t.uhen the 111.lnes 'in Wabush and t:he rnin(~S in l .. <.'lbracloln Cit:y wiJ.l operate no rnor ·e. So tAl~ :· must be rr:!ady to allotAJ that cornrnun'i.ty Logo on and suppOl"l: LhP number of people living in t:he gE!nE·ral area. I bE <l.ieve l..he rn.i.n(''S in tAJest .ern Labrador tAii .1l probdbly operate in a rnanner and at the production lev~::.ls l:hey have t.oday in OUl" lAJOinkinq J.oi.fE! l .. irne. 1 fj t"rn] .y b<":>lieue that . 13ul: l:.hur''" lAJ'.'i 11 be a day lAJhen the rn:inE:·s lAJi '1'1 no l. No. 1~5 I~ 2 2

opE! rate, aJbett I cion 1 t thJ.nk in our working lifetime it will be shut down. But it is important that during our WOl"king lifetime, whether in industry or in the Legislature, with the new tax burdens you place on the mim~rs, and I speak specifically of western Labrador, that you channel any ex·tra revenues into these particular funds. I believe that is important. ts look aJ"ound We have all All you have to do thts Pl"ovinc<:'. lAJitnessed what has occurred in other areas which had mines operating in their particular towns, such, as I said earlier, Bell Island, St. Li.'l.Wl"E!nce and Buchans, theSE! areas.

And diversification is not something new, although it is a new word this particular Administrat-ion has found recently tAli th rE!gard to the crisis in the fishing ·industry, and t:hey are asking another level of Government to completely fund what should be done, What they feel is the CUrE! for what is occurring in t:he fishing industry. Well, I cha1l<:~nge them that they do have the wherewi .thal to . implement a diversification in the mining industry.

Instead of just imposing nr::~w taxes so that you can improve your own personal transportat.ion modes, iF you aJ"e going to put a new tax on the industry, have a new tax that would diversify the particular areas which produce ·this wealth for this Province. If this particular Administration spent as much time studying methods of irnprovtng the 1nining industry and what can occur in the rnininq industr·y, and hot.~..J it can generate new wealth, rather than on Meech Lake issues, I be1ieve we L23 May 3 1, l. 990 Vol XLI could do a Jot rnol"E! fol" Lhe provincial 1::!conorny.

I UJ:ink some of the SCE!narios t...Jhich have bE!en painted throughout this country with regard to the effects of a failure to sign the Meech Lake Accord, the failure of this country to reach an Accord throughout, the failure of this Accord to pass, could have a tremendous economic impact on this whole country. And when I see some of the economic impacts it could have on where I ltue in this country, which is a border community between Labrador and Quebr:~c -· I am Jiving right on the border.

I gUE!SS it: can be said I am caught between a rock and a hard place ·- that rnakE!S me Fc'!1'!l a little prE!carious, and I am sul~E! it makes a lot: of people in rny district fer:~J. a l:i.t.U.e precarious and thr·eatHned. One oF the SC1c!l'1dl"oios which has been painted is that there has been a suggestion in this House that the Prem:ier mE!nt.ionE!d in this House at one time, I Forget exactly whE•n, but back a coup1e of tAJeeks ago, that if t~h<:!

Pro1Jince of Quebec did separatE!, maybE:' IAI(! could get an ext:ra $500 rni1lion a year out of the Province of Quebec throuqh t.he UppE·r Chur·chi 1.1 hycl1~o deal.. I bH1oieVE:' Lhat.. lAI"l'> m E• n t i o rlE! d . 1 a 111 n o t s u I" e i ,. 1·11:! t...Jc-.l s s 1:' rio us , and I don 1 t k n OIAI 1·1 OIAI he tAJas going to do i. t. I don 1 t k no t...J how t hi s e x t r a ~; '.> 0 0 rn i 11 :i. o n was going to accrue to Lhe Province al1 of a sudden because Quebec separates. An Hon. Member : Import tax . Mr. Noel: -••-•••· - ·- •••••O••----•OM• A separation agreement . Mr . A .

Snow: A sepcn·a+.ion agreement. rhe hon. l.he MCIIIber fQr Pleasan t vi1Je suggesl.s we would l]l:!t: ~J;SOO rni.l1 ·ion br•cause o1= No. 4-5 1~2 3

a separat.ion agreement, iF Quebec separatE!S. An Han. Member : (Inaudible) . Mr. A. Snow: Now the anti-Confederate over there just said it, and I want to have it recorded in Hansard that that is what he suggested, the hon. Senator from Pleasantville. But if, indeed, that is a fact - Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! I just want to remind hon. ME:~mbE!rS that. I do not mind interruptions when the interruptions cou1d h~ad to the enhancement of the debate, but what I have been hearing not.u is doing nothing to enhance the d':"bate, so I call order, plE~ase. The han. the Member For Menihek .

Mr. ·A. Snow: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. If, indE!ed, that did occur, and somebody also mentioned, I think it was probably an off-the -cuff remark by the hon. Senator from Pleansantville or somebody else, that it would be an export tax or a tariff. Other people have suqgesl:E!d thc3.t if indeE!d that: did occutn, that usual]y what. occurs in a tatniff !AJar, if OnE! puts a tatniff on one place, sornE:~body elSE! puts a tariFf on sonwthing else. We have witnessed that, and that is why we have international and national agreements with regard to tariffs.

Not,~o,J, iF that did occur in Labradotn wi.t.h a tar'iff of power, that would be the tariFf, and I see the han. the Minister of Mines and EnE!rgy shaking his head in an affiTrnat:Lve rnannE>tn, if that did occur, we could have LhE! r P p u b 1 i c o f Q u e b e c , o r IAJ h a t e v e r i l 1.24 May 31, 1990 Vo1 XLI would be, rnaybe they tAJou1d tar'ii :F thE! s>hiprnr:!nt of it"on or'E! t·.ht"ough their province, because one - Lhird of thE! railroad, and thE• por-t which ships the iron ore From Labrador, is in the Province of Quebec.

If that were tariffed, we would see an increased burden on the cost of production of the iron ore, so it would bE! a threat to the mining industry again, Mr. SpeakE!r. That is one of t.he l:.hings which has peopln i;1 my d:islri.ct thinking of lAJhaL can occur with Meech Lake. If, indeed, that did occur, tariffs being placed by one and somebody making a counter-tariff, putting another tat~iFf on somewhere E:'lsE>, we could SE·E· the republic of Quebec possibly tariffing the iron ore being shipped through their ports, and that wou1d be to Lhe det.t·'irnPn t of the mines in Labrador.

Now, I hones t1.y do not bE!) tevE· that tAli] 1 occur . I do not think l:.his country lAJil.] brr-.:,ak up; 1 ant c o n f i d e n t t h i s c o u n t r y I Ali 11 r e rna i n one. I arn proud to b~ a Canadian . But: I see it as a possibi1.ity which could occur. If one thinks that you can tariff, then the other one usua1.1y will come back t;Jith anol..her l:at~ir 'F, a counter -tariff, and that is dangerous stu~F, l believe. ll could drasLicaJly affect: Lhe mining industry, which has been tou·l~E·d by the hon. Minis t.er' as U1~;:! leading industry in this ProvinCE!.

The numbE·r one s:i.ngle industry cou1d be devastated, completely ruined. ThE:' competitors in the i.r-on ore industry :in the t.uesLern lAJorlcl today operate ft~ollt tAJE•sLr::•r'n Labrador and northeaslern Quebec, our nE·oiqhbout"S up :in F'el"trtonl:., Mount: Wright. fhey are Lhe two competitors, Lhe iron mines in No. 45 1~24

IJJestet"n L.abt"adol" and the il"On mines in northeastern Quebec, QCM. So. you s E!e. there couJ.d be an economic benefit maybe accrue through a windfall or a tariff on the hydro. but the mining industry would be devastated, and the communities would be devastated.

I urge the Minister of Mines and Energy, who I know is really a small 11 1 U.beral, he is really a smal.l 11 1 Liberal, and he is really in favour of a diversification Fund and a resource depletion fund, that if ther~~ are going to be any new t.ax burden placed upon H1e miners. on the mining industry. that that is where it. would come, it would come in l:he form of going into a resource depletion fund or a diver·sification fund. Thank you. very much, Mr. Speaker. Some Han. Members: Hear·. heal"! Mr. Speaker: The han. the MernbE!r for Kilbride . ~ ... ~ .. _._ ... ii..~ _ _a_yl_w.~.r ..

Q : Than k y o u • v e r y much, Mr. Speaker. I know quite a bit about mining; I have two gravel pits in my district. My eyes are watering, Mr. Speaker. I cannot see. Mr. SpeakPr, I just IAJant: to have a fetAl words on this B:i11. I won 1 t hold it up very long, but my conceJ"n is not rE•lated so much to the Bill as to the process. I just want to l"E!ad out a copy of a Telegram press release that was put out today by Torn Murphy. MHA. St. John 1s South, Chair·man of the Government Services L.egtsJ.ative RevietJJ Cornmi ttee.

It says: 1 The Cornrnittee will consider Four pieces of legislation on Monday June 'l. at 9:30 in the House of Assembly 1 . Mr. Sp1':!aker. I guess I IAJould say that this st.aternent Ol" L2S May 31, 1990 Vol. XLI telE•grarn or IAJhatevr:!r it lAlc:'tS. the Fax was sent ou~ in order to inform the rnedia, which we haven 1t been doing, and I take part oF l~.he responsibility for that too, because both myself as vicr:1--chairman and the chatrrnan. should have infor·med the media of our hearings, but I forgot.

But both of us agreed that we would send this telegram out to oi.nforrn the:! lllf!dia of IAJhat. hE•aJ"'.'i.n<_:)S lJJE! l.!.JE:'re having and whE!I'l, so t:-.hat thr:'Y COU] cl COI'llc::! ancl COVE'l" it:. 13 u t . M r . S p (~ a k e r • L h e a n n o u n c e rn e n t of thr:1 four pieces of J.egtslat.i.on for Monday June 4-th,- lAJhich is Monday corning, suggests that. legislation looked at, will. be:

An Act To Amend The Rel::at1 SaJ.r:~s Act 78, which is quite acCE!ptable for the offshore petroJ.eurn development, lAJc:;> are go.inq to look at that.;

An Act. r~E·sr-H:!ct.:inq -rlw Reduction Of" or·r:·shol"E! Act: Corporate Incornr:1 Tax. lAJh:i.ch is a good piece of Logis1ation, wc:• lAJi.ll bE! looking at t.hat. whoich we should;

An Act l~espectoing The Creation Of RegionaJ. Servtces Board, which it. is good we are going to have a J.ook at it because I would imagine that might be a bit. controvel"sia1 and l.1.Jc::- have agreed to go over that and have sorTIE! pE•oplE! from t.he staff con1e and explain :iL l~o us; and nu111bE·r 4·, Ml". Speakel".

An Act To Arnencl The Mineral Holdings Impost Act. Mr. SpeakE•r. why a1"1:~ u.Je gotng to J.ook at the MineraJ. Holdings Impos l: Act tJJhich tJJas agr·eed to by the chairman and vice · .. ·che:dnnan? We lJJere going to look at i l:. so the:d:. l.1.JE! couJ.d gE~t. solTlE! tnForrnati .on FI"Om t.he staFf or- t:he DE:'parl-:II'IE!nt of Finance and probabJ.y the Department of Mines so that we coul.d be betLer· inrol"nlecl on l.he purposE• oF th"is .l!c'qoislal:.ion, lAJhat it woul.d be doing and whal Lhe No. ll-1~ I~ 2 1)

changes would incur. Yet, Mr. Speaker, because of the disorganized way this House is being run, the Government House Leader has called this Bill before it has gone to the legislative Review Committee. This Legislative Review Committee system which was brought in by hon .

Members opposite, and I give them credit for it, is a good Luay for Members on both Committees and M1:'rnb(~rs of l:.his HousH in r3enE!ral to r'E!ViE!W lE!~~:i.sJ.at:i.on so that. tue can be better aware of what the legisJ.ation provides, and that in a way is an answer to the question of the Minister of Social Services o·f, what am I doing talk-.ing on Mines, what do I know about Mines? Mr. Speaker, for me to be informed on what is happening in the tnin-.ing industry o1n what che1nges arE! corrdng in this MinE!l"al.

Holdings Impost Act, I have to rely on the staff of the Departments involved, so that I can ask thern questions in the meetings that we hear, so if I disagree with some of the policies which Government is bringing in, I will be better informed in this House, so that . I can question it.

If tAle haVE! thE! disorganization of t·:he running of this HousE• or thE! will of the Government House Lead~~r to shut this place do!Ain as ·Fast as he can to get. out of here for the sutnmer, lAJh!C!lne we have a telegram, WE! have a pr'E!SS re1E!ase today from the Chair·man of l:he Government Services Legislative Review Committee and myself, who did it: by ag1neernen t, when WE! set the agE!nda for Monday, June 4-t:h 1 s rnPeting. and on Monday, JunE! 4·l:h, we had planned to have staFF in frorn the DepartrnE!nt of M:i.nE!S and l:he Department of Finance, to review,

An Act. To Amend The Mine1 "al Holdings Trnpo sl. Act, y1 ::d~. Ml". Spr,!akr:•r·, today tAlE! ser:' the L26 May 31, 1')90 Vol XU Government House Le ader , who ha s ignorE!d l:ht::' purpoSE! oF Lhe l...(,~gis1ati.vE! RevietAJ ContiTl.i.·tt.eE!S, and I think it was his idE!a l:o br·i.ng it in, Ml". Speaker, and it lJ.Jas a good idea . But what. is he doing now that he has brought it in, Mr. Speaker?

He has brought in this review procedure and now he is totally ignoring it, which is a shame, which is a shame bE!Cau s E~ I belieue this Legislativ1:> Review sys l:e1n t·.hat:. hE:~ has bl"OUC:Jht ·in j ~; a quod :iclr:'a d1ld il : CUlntainly hnLps opposttion ME·lnber· s to bE· upqraciecl on Acts that or·dinar· :ily tAJe ttli.•Jht not bE• farrd.li.ar tAJi th, and the Mineral Holding Im post Act is not

an Act that I deaJ.t wH:.h wh:i.le 1 tAJas in Cabinet. Il: is nol:

an Act:. that I deaJ.t i.n d( "!tail tAJi th whilE~ I was a Government backbencher or OE!puty SpeakE!r, and I lAJou1d J.i.ke to have had the opportunity to discuss this act w:i. th Lhe st afF of t h e D e p a r l:.t n ('! n l:. o F M i 1·1 c• s , i n particular, to ask thE"rn sol'IIE' questions. NotAl I do notice L~hal:. the M:inist.cO!r of Mines did answer sorne of LhE! questions that I tAJou1d haue 1 iked to ask, and questions that !Aiere asked by the MernbE!r For Mount Pearl. And I realize that the Minisl:er oF Min es is a U(•I"Y knolAiledgeable pe rson on all related mineral activ ily in Lhi.s ProvincE' bE!causr::• ho lAJas one::, of Lhe ADMs of that O!::!parl: .tll('•nt and i'

H) IAJas very invoJ.vecl in all of this . But, Mr. Speaker, the only opportunity now that I haue to ask CE!r 'tain questtons tAJi.11 be to l":he M:inistE~In of Finance lAJho lAJi.Ll, lAJh()ll he i.s cluE~ing up Ud.s bill anst .... Jer some of the questions that: tAle Jl'l.i.ght hav e on the b:i11. I lAJan t to say that: . tn princ.i.pl.e I aqr'(''e tAJit.h t h E• b i. ] l , 1 t oi. S V E! I" y S 0 U n d , c:J 0 0 d 1uqis1al::.ion, Mr. ~3peakeln. !3111· I have to r·ely on t.he M:ini .sLr::·r· ol No. t~S 1\26

Finance answering some questions iF I have any that wel"e diffe1n1:1nt than the MEHnbE!r for Mount Pearl, and I know that he does not knotJ..J the answers. The Minister of Mines might know the answers, but the Minister of Finance in clueing up his debatE!, he might be able to go get the answers now, but I arn sure that he is not totally fami.liar with The Minerai Impost Act, even though it ·is in his narne. Some ~o~. Membe~s: Oh, oh! . ~ .. ~ .. -._B .. ..:.._ ..

E_l~~.r .. g_ : M I" . s pea k e r , I do note that there is quite a sizable increase in l:he taxes per hectare of the mines whe!n it tJJas brought in in 1978, it was some thir·ty-five cents per hE!Ctare, and it. increas1:•d to three dollars p1;!r hectare in 1981 which in itself tiJas a stzable 'increase. But t.he purpose of it is good. It dissuades or tries to eliminate people holding large tracts of land and not doing the exploration on it. Mr·.

SpE!aker, if I had to have the opportunity of going to the Legislative Review Committee sysb.>m I would have been ab1e to ask staff a Jot of questions, and had I known it was not going to go to our Cormn:i.ttee, tAlE! wei"E! assUI"t::1d, our Cornrnil:l:i)e tiJas assurE•d that- it tJ..Jould. Had I knot,~.m that i.t. lAJas not going to the Legislative Review Comrnittee, it was going to be called here five or six days before we held that.

Cornrni ttee meeting, I would have gone to the:1 staff of the Department oF Finance and to the staff of the DepartmE!nt of Mines and asked a few questions so that rnaybe I could contribute somehotJJ a bit. moi"E! E!ffe•ctive1y to the debate that. is taking place on this Bi11 today. But, Mr . ~)peak er, I am 1.2'7 May 31, 1990 Vol XLI disappointed that the Government House Leaclei" has called Lhe b:ill before it has hac! an opportunity to go before the Legislat:ive Review Committee.

And I hope that he will not be doing this with other legislation which is very important, and if he:1 is doing it just let me know so that I can go do my work separatE! from the Legislative Review Committee and get the answers to any questions that I might have, or any questions that r rnight want to ra:i .SE:' -to one of t.he MJ.njsLC:''I"S tAJho a1nE:1 introducing b.-i. -lls, .[ rnight be pre!par·r::1d bE!ttE!r . Mr. Speake!", thE• inci~C:'i-.lses in the taxes are quite substantial.

There is one thing in this act, and I missed the Minister of Mines answer to it, I reaJ.ize hE! madE• a comm1':!11t on i.t when T liJaS COIJ'I:in<j into thE! House hel"e. 13ut the ac l. now provides lhat unused expE!ndi tures be cai'Tied r·oi"IAJ<H'd for two years, Mr. Spr::'ab:1r. And the new act, the changE! :i.n the second amendment allows Lhe amounts to br'! CiH'Inied fOI''tJ..Jar·d fol" five years.

NotAl i'l: tiJould SE!C:!IIl to me, twing an uninfo1nmed pel"son because I did not have l:hE• chance to discuss t.h'is tJJi.'l:.h t".he st.afF of the Legis1.at.ive Reviet.u COIIHni.l:.l:ce, being an uninfonnE'·d pE'I"son :i.n Lh'.l s matter , i t tJJo u l cl s e ,,, m l:. hat. l·: h i s is going to lAJE~aken thr::· intent. ot" U1r::· provisions of the act. The int<:•nt and the principle of the act :is to encourage exploration, and it is to encourage exploration and discourage holding lc::ungE! tr·acts oF land so that nobody eJ.sE• can get in and do their exploration.

So iF we change i l: so that t h e• unused f:'Xpendi.tul"es can be CcHTi.ed fortiJarcl from l:.tiJo years l:.o Fiv1:• year·s, it. t,o.Jou]cl ser::•nl to rne t. hat this :i.s a tiJeakeninq oF so1ne or: Lhe provisions t.hat now are in the No. t.j.IJ R27

Act. Maybe I coul.d bE! compl etE•ly wrong, Mr. Speaker, bt'?.CaU St:;) I never had a chance to discuss this during the Legislative Review system in this House. There is another amE!ndment in the Act, Mr. Speaker, that allows owners of mineral holdings to have their interests converted to interest under Th~ Minerals Act . Mr. Spt:!aker, I do not understand what l:.hat. rnecH1S. I haVE! not. had an oppor l:.u ni ty to be ablE! to get an anstAJr:!r Fot " :it.

I arn sure the Minister oF Finance when he answers wi11 explain the third amendment to rne as to why olAmers of a mineral holding would have their interest converted to an interest under The Mineral Act, therefore, the land would be subject to the Act and so on and so on. Mr. Speaker, I am not sutne lAJhat thjs rnt::'ans. It is

an Act that I haVE! to vote on. It is an amE!ndrnent to an existing Act l.:hat I have to vote on. I hope l~he Minister· of Finance lAJhen he -is clueing up this debate will inform this House of what that third amendment would mean. I am sure he can get the information from the Minister of Mines because, obviously, he does no t have the answers which, Mr. Speaker , was the main re ason tAJhy I wantPd this legislation to go to the legislative review. I realize that it is not under the MinistE!r' s control. The Minister oF Finance did not control that. The Minister of Mines did not control that.

But the Government House Leader, Mr. SpE!akE!r, who is running a disorganized ship here in this Hou se of Assembly, has called l~he legislation before t.he process has taken its proper coutn se. 1.28 May 31, 1990 Vol XU Ml". Speake!", I tAIOuld have J i ked to have hearings on this Act or would J.tke to question the offic:i.aJ.s on how well this Act has worked in the past. We know that t·.his Act IAJas introduced sometime in 1978, I believe, yes . I do not have an up-to--date report on how tAJe11 the Act has worked since 1978 - An Han . Member: (Inaudtblo) . lli.:.. · R. Ay1.tAJard: Yes .

I tAJas Fot ~ tE!n yt::'<:uns, frot\1 1.969 Lo 1979, in north ern Newfoundland survE•ying, and i.f you lAJant ITIE! t.o go through all of that. I can go thtnough the "l:.E!n YE!ars. I was in northern Newfoundland surveying transm ission lines which were going to bring power .dolAJn to Newfoundland from Labri:ldor '. On J u n e 1 8 , 1 9 7 9 , I r' a n i n l: h E'! District of Kilbride and goL elected as the Mernber-· i·~or Lhe District of KilbridE! . Then fr-orn 1979 to 1982 I served in l:.he back benches, in the samE! seat I believe that~ the MernbE!In For St . John's South is but I am noL sure.

So that got me up to 1982 and in 1982 sornetirne there wa s another election callE!d in this Province . I understand a very ht::'ated election. In 1982, I 1~1as re-elected to Lhts Hou se of Assentbly fO I'' l~h e DisLr 'icL of Ki1bridE! tAJ:i.th the hig hE!Sl. rnajot"ity of anyone ~~lse in Lhc.:• Province at thE! timE•, lAJhich I arn J"a thE!I" Pl"oud of Mr. SpeakE.~r. So in 1982, when WE• came back there was a new SpeakE!r' appoj.n tecl to this l~ouse of Asst:~rnbly, hr~ tAJas thE! Member' for' LetAJispor'tE•. I t~Jas fortunate enough to be appointed Deputy Speaker of Lhe House of Assembly .

I rnust say Lhat the Speaker in Lhe Cha'.i.tn noJAJ I atn SUI"E:• he tAJould ~·\qr't:•e tAJi .l·:h 1ne, as Far· as the opE!r 'at: ions of L.hJs i·lousr'• or· No. 1~5 IU8

Assembly are concerned, being Speaker or Deputy Speaker is certainly a very prestigious, interesting and challenging job to have in this House of Assembly. I would recommend that if the Premier offers such a thing to any of the hon. Members opposite that they take it. It is a good opportunity for people. especially the Minister of Social Services, who interprets the rules of the HouSE! of Assernbl.y to his OLun benefit, to get a good und~~lnstanding of the:~ lnuJ.E!S of the House of Assembly so that he would not be breaking the 1nules of the House of Assembly. So from 1982, Mr.

Speaker, until January of 1985, I believe, I was ·- An Han. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. R. Aylward : I i:~m just answering the question. I don't mean to get oFF l:his Bill, bul: I do have some U.me left. I only have a couple of more questions. In January of 1985 I was very fortunate to be as ked by thE! Premier of this Province to serve in his Cabinet. I must say that I t.uas VE!Iny, very honoured to be asked by Prerrder Peckford to serve in the Cabinet of: this Province, and even more so with the Po1ntFolio l~hal: he qave 1ne. rhe Portfolio that was completely destroyed by this new Administration, Mr. Speaker.

It had to be the most effective Portfolio for helping rural Newfoundland that ever existE•d in l.his Province. Mr. Speah~r, the Department of Rural. Agricultural and Nortl'wrn Development, which happened to be the Department that, I suppose, could be described as a people Department r·ight from one end to the other. I was very proud to be in the 1_ 29 May 31, 1990 Vol XLI Cabinet and certainly even more proud to be in the cabinet as Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. W~~ a1ne up to January 1985 now, so in June of that year.

I be 1 iev e, the 1ne lAJas another election callE!d and I believe that was the year th~~ han Member ran. It was in the election of June 1985 that the han. Minister of reading pickle recipes ran and he did very t.ue"ll. I was glad to see him in the J-IOUS~"?.. f lAJaS ln('c'J.lly ']l.C'J.d [~O ~:.ee him over on this side of Lhe House, and would be E!VE!n ll'lore g"lad i. f I s aw hi rn o v E! r· hE! In E! a g a i n . I would encourage the hon. Mernber to run again becaus~~ I knot;.J he uri1J be elected again and I know he wiLl have his SE•at pickE·d out on this side oF l:he House after the next election.

He does a good job in his District and obviously he should be ri':~warded for doing that. good job which means that his consti.tu~~nts will support him again in the next election, I would say. I will keep this seat her'E! warrn fo1n hirn. I know he was not allow,?d l~o sit this cJ.oSE! to his lE!adE•r' the last time. I think he was down the1n''' somelJ..Jhere, but I am not surE!. I wi.l.l kN!p this seat: lAJiH'In for him For a couple of rnore years and then lAJhen the elecl:Lon ·is cc:l."lh'd we lAJ:i. ll.

E:~xchanc.:JE! seats. rnaybe. and maybe once again I can re - establish the Department of Rural, Agricul.tural and Northern Developrn~:!nt whi.ch lJ..Jas VE!I"Y he1pful to rural N~:!wFoundland in l:his Province. The hon. House Lead':~ln is 1ookinq at me not.u and lAJonck>r·ing in his rnind the relevancy of Lhe debate I am having now. I just wanl. to infor'ITI hi.rn, bE·cause he tAJas out. of l~he House, 'l:hal thu Ministel" of Soc:i.al ;:;el"vjcr:•s asked 1ne lJ..Jhat. 1 No. l\.S I~ 29

was doing since 1978, so I arn just trying to answer his question very quickly. I am just running through it as fast as I can. If you want me to get back to the Act I can get back to the Act again anytime anyone would like to enforce the rule of relevancy in this House, Mr. Speaker. So, we are up to the election of 1985, I believe it was in June sometime, and I cou1d teLl. you a fE'W good stories about that one, maybe some U.me in pd .vate. It : was rather an exciting election campaign at the time.

After January I stayed in the portfolio of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development For a year and a ha1f, 01° two yea1os, I am not sure now. The closer I get to today 1 s date the less accurate I am for some reason or other. I seem to remember a long time back a lot easier tha.n I remember tAJhat happened yesterday . Anyway, I IAI<-ls moved from the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development sometime, I believe, in 1988, but I am not su1~e of that, I think i~ was 1988 or 1987.

I served as Minister of Forestry then and was quite delighted again to become involved in the Forest industry of this Province and see how the opr:-r·ators, the loqgE!rS, the paper companies, and thE:' satAJrni11ers IAieJne operating in this Province and have a look at how the forest industry is being rnanagr,~d in this Province. I must say I lAJas Frightened on occasion, Mr. SpE!akE!r, to get rE!ports on what forest resource we do have in this Province.

A lot of it is now tied up IAJith the paper companies and a lo t of the arE!aS that arE• not br:•d up with the paper companies are getting cut out fairly quick1y. rhe forest industry is a great concern of mine but we will have a 1.30 May 31, 1990 Vol XLI chancE! to clebat :.E• 1ittle while, Mr. that i:'lga ·:i.n Speaker. in a The Minister of Social Services was not really serious about asking me the question about tAJhat I was doing since 19 8 S and if h E• does not want to listen I will carry on with the Act. If he wants to sit down for another little while I arn getting close to 1989.

I think sometilllE! in 1989, just bE!fore Lhe 1ast r::•J(,'Cti.on, I l~Jas rna<h~ Mini ster' oF Municipal Affairs for cHAihtlE •. I lAii{S theJ·'E:• forty --odd days, a couple oF ITIOJne days than fo1nty, I Lhink, and it. was like the great one who went to the desert for forty days and forty nights, Mr. Spoakc:;!r, and I did not have an opportunity to leave rny starnp. So, for the information of l:hE• hon. the Min is ter of Social Services that is a br·ieF rundO lAin of what I was doing si nce 1978 when this Act was First introduced, Ml". Speaker.

S:i .nce that time I did not have, b~:·cause I was not Minis Ler of Mines, a detailed update on wha.t the Act was doing. In 1981, whr:'n thi .s Act tAJas probably the last tirnE! brought to Cabinet For rE!Vision, when the rates per· hectare lAJere changed, a\: that time I was a backbencher over the In('! s 0 I lAIO u 1 d n 0 l. h d v e b ,. (~ n privi1eged to the Cabinet paper at the t.irne. Mr. Speak1:!r, I ha.v(• not had a de tai1ed upda Le on holAJ tlri s Act is working in the Province, and if it is fu1fi11ing the purpoSE! For IAJhich H: tAJas broucjht in.

I arn sure the Minister of Finance lAiill certainly give us a detailed answer of how this Act has been working since 1978. I expect it is probably fairly successful, Mr. Spc:~akc:'r, i:'Jnd that thE! act has cr'l''al:ecl SOITIP acLJvJ.t.y, lAI t L h L h e h c::! 1 p o F ~:; o rn "' o t h t' r incenttves, no doubt~ No . '1-5 1no

But this Act has <hssuad(!d pE!Op}E! from grabbing Jarge blocks of land and sitting on that land, not. doing anything tAiith it, which is what we had for a number of year's in this Province, before this Act and other Acts were brought in by the great Progressive Conservative Governments we have had. in this Province since 19'71 - 19'72.

And I am surE! that if the present Administration cloesn' t ciE!Viate very much from the '.intention of the previous Administration in bringing in these Acts in the first place, the intent of the Act will survive <wei WE! will see that there will be less land tied up for long pe•riods of time and not being used for exploration. Mr. Speaker, I want the Minister to answer, when he gets up - if he clo~~sn' t haVE! the anstAJer notAl, maybe whE!n we go :Lnt.o Cornrnit.tE•r,,, wE:! can debate this a litt.le 1nore quickly and ask questions a l:Ltt.le better how well has this Act worked, Mr. Speaker?

One other thing the han. Minister should have, because ·he is MinistE!r of Finance, and hE• did bring in the budget and did some of the planning for our Budget - I wou1d like to know how much tax this Act has generated for th1~ provincial Trt::>asuJ~y of this PJ~ovince, Ml". SpeakE!r, hotAI much tax since 1978, and probably, on a yearly basis he could tell us what taxes were collected.

I would suqges t that:. the Minis l:e1~ take heed for his next Budget, of the VE!ry good spe•::-ch made by l:he Member for Menihek when he put forward l:he suggestion that if we arE! conU .nuing to tax the m:i.ning companies and the exploration companies in this Province, probably we should gitJe soJTIE:~ very serious consideration to putting aside some of Lhal: tax l:o creal:.E! diversification funds for our L31 May 31, 1990 Vol XLI 0 11 E'! ,_ J. 11 d U S t I~ y pal~ticulal~ly, For towns which 'l.OlAJrl S, 0 I", l:hE! one .. ·-:indus L1~y depE!ncl on resources, and non ·-renetAJable Labl"ador Ctty among these. and Wabush would bE!

And, if we had that type of system in place now, where there was a fund available through thE! tax doJ.lars cornJng out of rrdnes, maybe the people of Daniel's Harbour, l:oday, tAJho expect. that the "i I" ITI:i ne t~Ji.ll c1ose in Lht::> n(:•xt Fet. ~J mont.hs ··· I u n d e I" s l: a n cl t h e rn :i n e tAl :i 1 I c 1 o '' e had J had l:.he foi~('Sighl.. L.(l do what the hon. th~~ Men1be1" fol" Menihek said, maybt:~ it. tAJould haVE! been more hE:~lpful foJ~ thrc! pE!Ople of Daniel's Harbour today. But, Mr.

Speaker, I havr:~ to adrn:i.t that I didn't haVE! the fol~esight and I didn't have the opportunity of hav·ing l:.he MeJnbE·r·' For MenHwk in OUI" caucus at l:.he t:i.n1e. But, notAl l:.hat hE! has 1T1ade l..h<'! suqqt:!Sl:.iun, maybe, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Mines, who I !<notAl is VE!r'y informed on mining operations in other parts of the wor1d, cou lei do sorne investi.gation :i.n conj uncti.on wil..h the Minister of Finance to see i.f thE! sett.ing up of such a fund to diversify the econorni.es of one - industry towns, particularly those with non-renewable resources, should be establ i shed in l:.his Province. Hopefully, it tAJou1d heJ.p oul .. lAJhen t.he n1:ines, which obviously, as the Mt::>mbeJ~ for M~:!nihek said, eventuaJ.J.y t;.J:i 11 I"Un out of o1~e, or For soJriE! other reason, will cJose.

Cost of production miqht mean that they close, or' t.he cost of' t.hfdr product rnight nol: be co1npel:."i. l·:.ive on the tAJOI~ld lfli.''trket. Mr. Efford : (Inaudible) . Mr . R. Ay~tAJal~ . £1.: Ml" . SpE·dkE•I", does the hon. Lhe Min-LsLe1" oF ~3ocial ~)el"vices havr:• anothel" ques t.i on he· No. 4-S IDl

would l:i.ke for' rne l~o go over', back bEd=-ore 19'78? I could g"iVl':! hi.rn a good run-down on that. Mr. Tobin: Be 1 i I< e the Premier, start over again. Mr. R. Aylward: Yes . If the Minister of Social Services wants to continue interrupting, maybe I could start over again. I can remember pretty well all of what I have said so far. Mr. ~3peakr:,~r, tAlhNl the Min"istetn of Finance gc.=! ts up to clue up l:his debate within the next two or three days, probably he t.~.Ji1l take note and collect the information on the amount of tax co1lected under this Mineral Holdings Impost Act over the last years.

I. asked him before if he could give us an explanation of holAJ tAlell this Act has performed and operated since 19'/8, tJJI'H'•n we brought it in. He might eVE!n giVE! us an explanation of how his Department s~O!es t:.hi.s Act, and how much economic revenue comes to the Province from the overall mineral exploration in this Province. I only have three minutes left. I am sure I will get leave from han. JV]I:~rnbers to continue, because .I do have a Few more things to say. Mln.

Speaker, I would likE! to knot;J what revenues tAle a1ne getting Frorn overall mineral exploration in this Province, and production activity, as a result of this legislation which was brought in, as I said before, by the previous Administration, Mr. Speaker. Not.~.J, I only had tilfle to do a srna11 amount of homework on this because, as I said befor'e, I expecting to get to L.c;-qisJat:i.VE! l~eV:iE'IAJ pr'OCE!SS SO tAle could quest::ion rn~~mbE~Ins of· t.l.ld s the that thE! staff of both Departments. Had we 1.32 May 31, 1.990 Vol XLI gone through that process, pinobably I tAJOuld not have as many questi.ons.

Then, agatn, I tAJould probably need leav1::> of ano thE~ln half hour or an hour From han. Members to continue with t:.he questions, Mr. Speaker. But I would like to know what:. the production activity is as a result of this legislation. 0 n e o t. her thing I tJJo u 1 d 1 ikE! l: he Mints tE!I" to exp1aJ n - I t. hink hE~ got. Lh1:! tnFol"rnal:.i.on 1-I .. Uin l..he Mi.nistet" of M:ines a J·ltt-.lr;! t.~.Jhi1r:­ ago -- is tAlhy l:he extension oF !:hE· carryover from the two year per·iod, as it is :in l:hE! existtnq le~Jislati.on, to a fivt::• YE!dl" pE!I"iocl which, Mr.

Speak1:>r, r t.hink rniqhl tAleaken the lE!gislation? I do not know. I do not have the answc.=•r, obviously, not being an informed person in the mining industry. T h e I" e a ln cc! 1'1 ' t v e I'' y rna rt y ITI.i. n r:-s :i. n l h e D :i s t In i c l:. o r~ K i 1 b I" i ci e , M r . Speab-)r, so I arn no L up to cia LE• on all the taxes involved with l:he mining inclusttny.

Min. ~3pr:.•akco•l", w:• could have a f~O!w rno1nE! tAlor-ds Lo ~;ay on how the mining i.ndusLry is going to bE' aFfected by t.ho pay In o 11 taX , but I g Ll e s s L\J(• lAJ:i. 1 1 have to get into l:hat at anol:hetn tirnr:' br:!cause ti.rne is qo:inq by rather quickly. Mr . Spr,,aker, hdd I thu opport:u11i.Ly to ge ·t this legislaLi.on beF 'o1nE! thr::· staff of the Department of Finance and the Department of MunicipaJ Affairs, I tAlould have beE!II lfiOI"e inFormed.

Had thEH'E! ber:: •n a couple of rn'ines in the Disl:.r''ict. of Kilbride, maybe I would be more :inforrnE~d, or had I I:H:o~:!n M:ird s Ler of M:ines at. sorn~:· ·ti .rrt(• in l:.he pas L 1 rnight have b~'!E!n more awatnl"' or:~ tAJhat thi s legislation and the deLa:ils of l:he incrE:~asE:'S, U1r:• tl"ipliw~ oF t·:hE! rnine1na·1 ho1doi.ngjs :i1nposl..s ai"E:•, Min . ~:;peakE:'r, goinq I~I"Otn SOifll'=! Lhl"el~ clo11alns, I be1 ·ievE•, notAl Lo - IAJhal ~ No. tp; 1n2

does it say? - six dollars in 1990; seven doJ.lar·s in 1991; eight dollars per· hectal"e in 1992 - Mr. Speaker, that is getting rather expensive for people with large tracts of land - and nine dollars per hectare in 1993. It goes to some ten dollars per hectare in 1994; eleven dollars in 1995, as I read out of this Act. I would like the Minister or his staff, if they would, to get some information as other Members are debating. Mr. Speaker : Order, please! The hon. Member's time is up. Mr. R. Aylward: Oh, I see. By leave? Could I clue up by leave? S_9me Han . Members: By leave! Some Hon. Members: No leave. Mr. R.

Aylward: say - I tAJould LikE! to Mr. Speaker : OrdE:~r. please! Order, please! The han. Member's time is up. Does the han. Member have leave of the House? Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. R. Aylward: The han . Member said yes, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker: Does the han. Member have leave of the House? Some Hon. Members: By leave . An Hon. Member: Thirty seconds. Mr. R. Aylward : Mr. Speaker, thirty seconds.

I just want a couple of questions answered by one of t.hr:' Minis ler·s: Hot.~J tAJE:<l.l has th-Ls Act. tA.IOinkc:'d? rhc::' amounl: oF L33 May 3:1., 1990 Vo1 XLI tax we generate or we collect as a result of this legislation. And why the extension of Lhe cal"ryovr:~r. fi"OI'Il a LtAJo y~O!al" per·iod to a five year pE!Iniod? Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the ME:~rnber for St. Mary's- The Capes . Mr. Hearn: Thank you V(!lny much, Mr. Speaker . Just a few short words on Lhe Act. CE!l"tain1y I t hink iL j<; headed in the right direction.

It would bE:! intE'lnE!Stin~J to Find out, perhaps, hotAJ much land is l:.·:U!d up, because when !Ale J.ook at lAJhat is happen:ing to the ~~E!I'lE!I"al E:'conoJny of the Province, especiaJ.1y the f i s her y u p on w hi c h s o rna n y p r:w p 1 E! have relied in Lhe past, undoubtedly IAJe are·. go inq to have to J.ook elsewhere For Lhe provision oF ernployi!IE!I'll~. Over the last fE•w YE!.ai"S. onE! of the most. interesting sectors to watch in rr:~lation to pl"ogress. thE:! provision of jobs, l:.he contribution to the economy, is the mining sector.

But, elH~n though thE!InE:~ has bE!en a lot clone::•. most people will think Lhere is sti11 an au.1ful 1ot IAJhich can be clone. And ir-- t.1.lf~ can ~jl'!l·· a f,·liln amount of the land Freed up Lo E!rlCOUI"age rno1ne explora l: ion, Uwn UllciOUbtE!clly lAIE' IAiiJ.J SE•(! a reoccu1nrr:~nce of sorne of· l.:he Vf:!I"Y intE!Inestin~J discovc:-r·ies tAJh:ich h<:lVe been rnade :i.n the P1nov:i.nce in rr:~cent years.

Now, onr:' rE!ason for· this. of course, is because of wha~ is happening in l:.he other sectors, such as Lhe fishE!ry. and LhE!I"O <:-:11ne SOITlE! concerns in t.he fot"E!St sec totn a l s o . 13 u t l. h e rn i n i. n q t n cl u s L In y itself, there are certain areas thr:~l"e tAihUI"C~ tA.Ie havr::• to find ol.he1n No. 'IS rn3

ways to make up for the losses. We see Daniel's Harbour right now threatened with extinction, and I hope the Minister of Development will find sorne way to pr·olong thE! life of that mine. I remember a few years ago, when Daniel's Harbour was supposed to close down, ways were found to extend the life of it, and hopefully other ways can be found to keep that mine open and prolong the jobs. But we have concerns in ol:.her ar',;:!as, becaus~' 1ninerals a1ne finite things. Once thE!Y are a11 taken out of the ground, th~~n you cannot replenish. Sorne Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Mr.

Hearn: With the fishery i.t is ·a- -b:i t: d ifferent. If wE:! lllc:lnage prope1Aly and look afL!:~I" it, the'n the stocks tAJill rebuiJd. Mines, we know, are not the sarne. ConseqUE!ntly, as minE!S die in certain an:'as, and we see what has happened on Bell Island, we see tAJha t. has happenE:~d in Buchans, and now Daniel's Harbour and ther·e tAii11 be others, but as old mines go out, certainly we should be explol~tng rnore and rnore to rnake sur'r:?. rnorE! mines come onstream .

But if lAJE:~ are going to tie up, or let companies tie up large tt"acts of land, then this is going to prohibit E!Xploration, it is going to delay discovery, and it is going to lead to a downturn in the revenues which are coming into the coffers of the Province. The other rnajor concern tAle wou"ld have in that area is in reJ.ation to the mines in Labrador west, where a tl"etTIE!ndous amount oF the mining activity of the Province takesc place. And a 1ol:. of" Uw revenues which come into our L34 May 31, 1990 Vo1 XU coffers from the mining industry do come from Labrador.

The prE!Sent unstab1E! situation in the country undoubtedly has caused a tremendous amount of conce1~n :i.n Labrador, and, in pa1nt.icular, in the mines. Because if we cannot find some way to settle our present differences - and hopefully we can in t.he next few weeks, before June 23tnd. That is why it is so ~nportant For E•vel"yone to b<:' l"E•cd.·isti.£: -.in 1AeJ.al: .:i.on l:o IAJhal· :is happenin•3 in thE• country and to t1r·y to r :l.ncl a way where everyone is happy. ConsequentJ.y, it is a tilfiE! for tl~emendous 1eadership. It is not a time for pE:'r'sonal pride'!

OJ" t r y i n g t o g e t y o u r otAJ n h ~:! a d s t 1~ o n g way, it is a time to put the country first :. If l:he counLry falls apar·t, if QuebE·c separ·at.E!~~. then :it is going to hav ~:· .:~n adverse ~'ffE!Ct on the rwi .ninq activity, especially in lAJE!S:b :!l~n Labr·ador, For eve1~y bit of t.l"w oi~E· that comes ou'l: or~ t:hE:~J~e, gOE!S t:o rna1"ket thJ"ough the Pl~ovincE· of Quebec. What is going to happen t.o th~~ old QNS & L if Labrador is afFected by the separation of Quebec fi"OITI the rest of Lhe country?

ConSE:'quently, the rwining :inc\usl:i"Y is Facing a pel"iod of unc<:-l"Lc :Lint y and, to offs,,!t l:.hat, anyl:h"inq that can inCJ"ease explo1naU .on tAr:iJ 1. bE• of benefit:: to the Prov:i.nce and to the country generally. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! I wonder if the hon . Member wi1.1 take his seat whiJe I inForm Lhe House of the questions For Lhe Late Show. 'MI". lAri L h Speake1", l a111 the ansiAJE!r given not satjsr ":ied t.·.oclay by Lhe No. 4.~.; Jn't

Ministc:!J~ of FisheJ"-ies in 1nesponse to my question on sto1nm damage in last week 1 s storm. That is the hon. the MC:lmber for' Fogo. II am not satisfied tJ..Jith the answer given by the Premier to my question concerning consequences of a fa~ilure of Meech Lake Accord . 1 The han. the the the Member for St. John 1 s East. 1 I am not satisfied with the answer given to rne by the PlnE•mier on the Meech Lake issue and would like to debate it on the Late ~:ihOlAJ. 1 ThE:l hon. t:he Me1nbe1" fol'' St. John 1 s East Exte1nn. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: The han. th~::1 ME:lmbC:lr for St.

Mary 1 s -The Capes . Mr. Hearn: Thank you very much, Min. Speake!" . I would suggest to han. Members that we not start looking at trees and forget the fares t here when we are looking at the OVC:lralJ. issue of mining, because the big picture, the picture of Canada, plays an ex tJ"E:Hnely important

part in what happens in the development of mines in the Province, and, as I have said, particuJ.arly in Labr'adoin. Just. looking acJ~oss at the othe1~ side I was thinking we do have the makings of a great crew when it comes to mining. If the people opposite find themselves out of a job down Uw J~oad, we do have a number who could easily get together. We have a fair amount of experience. We do have the makeup of a rn:i.ning crE!lAJ, a m:in'ing fraternity. Already l:hey have dug sorne lAJells ancl tllE:'Y haVE! clu~~ them prE! L ty cleop. Haven 1 l: found ver'y much pE!l~haps, but: U1E!Y are l:hel~e.

U' they tJ..JanL. t:.o set. up in the f ield. they hc:we held ki t chen 1_35 May 31, 1990 Vol XLI already. rh'''Y have a good cr'ane, a very hC:1avy CJ"ane fo1n Lhei.r' operation. Th~::1y have sornE! coppl':lln - well, they have a Penney. ancl penney and copper mean the same thing. They have some fill. Somebody asks what do you calJ. a fellow who is down in a hole or in a rut, and the answer is fiJ.l. Of course, they haue that. If thE!Y want to get into exploring the interior, they have a flight of thE:liln OlJ..Jn. ~30 pul~.t"i.ng i t a 1 '!":. og e thE:· I" , p u I" haps tJJ'i t h i'i ] j l .. l ..

J e e r f 0 r l: • l: h e y c 0 u 1 d h a \) :) d q 0 0 cl rnining operat.ion. Maybe i F they support the Minis t·:,~r . , as IAJI'~ lAJill on thi.s Bi11, wc,~ can see a turnaround in the rnining indus L1ny in the Province ancl a further progress'.ion so that. tJ..Je lAJ "ill lllake up in the mining sector whE!l"e WE! might hlnd to lose in some other areas. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: rhe hon. 'Lht~ Minister of Mines and Energy . Dr. Gibbons : Arn I closing the debate on this now? Mr. Speaker: Oi"der, plE~ase! Is the hon. Minister speak'inq on behalf of the Minister o f Finance? Din.

Gibbons : Oh, he is back. Ml". SpeakE:'!~: In hon. thE! Minis tel" h~~ spE:laks now, debate. Dr. Kitchen : Speaker . Lhat ce1se, oF Finance . h~:· closE:'S rhank you, the I-1 t he Mr . We were listening woi t h great intel~est: t.o t:he colnl'nE:!nl:s JJJacle by Members opposite, par' ticulal"ly the points made by the Member For Me n i. he k lJ..I hE:' n h E! ITI a cl E• S 0 I'll E:! suqg~::1stions about st:•ll~i11q up i't Fund. Cel"tain1y, tht:lsP po:inLs iH'E• No. '~5 I~ 3 1:,

something to be thinking about, part:.iculai~ly as mining co111paniE:~s and mining towns wind down. HOIAJever, I think the Member I;.Jas extremely pessimistic when he said that everyday he gets up, he realizes the life of the mine is one day less. Because, as I understand the situation in Labrador west at the moment, it is quite an optimistic scene there, where a company is making good money and incr-eases haVE! bPen givE•n to ITiine:~rs and so on 1.1.1h"ich al~c-:! quitE! good incr'eases. HE! is so pessimistic. Mr.

Speaker, that he reminds me of a person who gets up every day and looks in the mirror' and says, 1 My gosh, I arn onE:~ day closer to my death, 1 as oppo s E!d to the optimist who loa k s in the mirror and says, 1 This is the first day of the rest of my 1ife. 1 You shouJ.d be mo1~e opt:irn :i.sttc. II: is ve1~y pos s:iblt=.! that you might eVE!n get threu more yea1ns in the House as opposed to. if the Premier calls an election, being finished. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, plE!ase! Dr. Kitchen: Mr.

SpE!akc:'ln. on the 111att.e1ns of substance 1-:.hat lAJE!r'e 1naised, lAJE• L<.Jill takr::• these matte1ns undor' aclvisornE•nt as we 1nake further changes to this Act in the years to come. I might add a specific question was asked, I think, by the Member for l<ilbride concerning clause 3. He asked why would the owners of mineral holding apply, and what. was the purpose of that? Basica1ly :i.t is to encourage mining companies to come under the general Act. Our general Mines Act is The Mine1nal Act.

ThPre are a nurnbE:!In of spE:!cial Acts, and IAJe tAJant t.o E:!ncotu·age peoplE• to carne under rhe Mineral Act oF 19'/6 t;.Jhi.ch is OUI" L.36 May 31., :1,990 Uol XU general Act applying to as many mines as we can. That is the p u In p o s e , a n cl t. h a t i. s o n E! o F UH• reasons why we have raised the rates, to make them conForm to some of the other Acts, so that there will be no particular advantage in staying under l:he old legislation. Mr. Speaker, with these comments I moue second reading. On lnO l:ion' a Bi 11' II An ro (iiJ'IC•nd The M:i.nel"al Ho1d ings lmpo :=; l.

Act , 11 r·ead a sec ond Lime, Oi'"·dE!r' ed referred ·to a .Cornrnittee of thE '' Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 2 7) Mr. Baker: Order 22 . Motion, SE!Cond reading of a f.Li .11, 11

An Act To AITIE!ncl rhe Mirli:!l"al Act, 1 9 '7 6 . ( B :i Ll. N o . cl ) Mr . Speaker: The hon. ·th e Minister oF Mines -· and EnE!I"9Y . Dr. Gibbons : Thank you , Ml" . Speaker. It is my pleasure to introduce l:his Bill aga:in, Fo1n LhE :: socond time. We introduced th is Bill last fal1 al:. l:he pi"Hviou s st LL Lnq of L he H o u s e an cl IAJ E· d (' b i'\ t E· cl i t :i. n se cond re ac hng al: ' that-. L.i.rne, but :i t tAl(:). S 1 e f t 0 11