British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, May 12, 2011

H0512pm-09

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 39th Parliament official rePort of Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari Soff, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Thursday, May 12, 2011 Afternoon Sitting Volume 21, Number 9

Pro Vince of britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l.

Point, obc Third Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker of the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil .............................................................................................................. h on. c hristy c lark Deputy Premier and Minister of finance ............................................................................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation ...........................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of a dvanced e ducation .................................................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Minister of a griculture ........................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Don Mcr ae a ttorney General ........................................................................................................................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc Minister of c hildren and f amily Development ................................................................................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of e ducation .........................................................................................................................................................h on.

George a bbott Minister of energy and Mines and Minister r esponsible for h ousing.........................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of environment ....................................................................................................................................................h on. Dr. t erry l ake Minister of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations......................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson Minister of h ealth .................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of Jobs, t ourism and innovation ................................................................................................................................... h on. Pat bell Minister of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government .............................................................................. h on.

Stephanie c adieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond Minister of Social Development and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism ............................................................ h on. h arry bloy Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ................................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ......................................................................................................................................................a drian Dix Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker ..................................................................................................................................................................Dawn black Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole ...................................................................................................................................Douglas h orne c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ............................................................................................................... craig h.

James (on leave) c lerk a ssistant and a cting c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................. k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary l enz

alP habetical liS t of MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, bill (l) .............................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, iain (l) .............................................................. Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h on. h arry (l) ............................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-fleetwood c adieux, h on. Stephanie (l) ................................................Surrey-Panorama c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c handra h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ................................Vancouver–West end c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, Murray (l) ..............................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ........................................... f ort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) ..............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on. Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington f alcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale f arnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake f oster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee f raser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, c olin (l) ............................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, k ash (l) ................................................................ Vancouver-fraserview h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de f uca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, kevin (l) ............................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, h on. Dr. t erry (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................f raser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (l) ......................................... Vancouver-fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on. Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–f alse creek Mcr ae, h on.

Don (l) ................................................................... c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry, Qc (l) ....................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (ind.) .....................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, ben (l) ..................................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, Dr. Moira (l) ......................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon.

Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant ...............................................................................Vancouver–Point Grey liS t of MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .......................................................................r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ......................................................h on.

Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott f raser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ...................................................................h on. h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope .......................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley...........................................................................h on. Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis f ort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman f raser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de f uca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on.

Dr. t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ...................................................... k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast ....................................................................................bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike f arnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam ...................................................................... iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands .....................................................

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine ........................................................................................Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Surrey-fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................ h on.

Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ........................................................................... Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-fairview ................................................ Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–f alse creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-fraserview ........................................................................k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara .................................................................Dr.

Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ..........................................Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ...............................................................................Vacant Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................................... c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ...............................................Spencer c handra h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric f oster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna .............................................................................ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 48; n ew Democratic 34; independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS Thursday, May 12, 2011 a fternoon Sitting Page Routine Business introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 6951 t ributes ..................................................................................................................................................................................... 6951 Verna bjerky h on. b.

Penner introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 6951 introduction and first r eading of bills ................................................................................................................................ 6951 bill 10 — Wills, e states and Succession a mendment a ct, 2011 h on. b.

Penner Statements (Standing order 25b) ......................................................................................................................................... 6952 May Gutteridge and St. James community Service Society J. kwan cruise ship terminal in n anaimo r . c antelon a rthritis awareness and fundraising walk r . flemin g t urning Point r ecovery Society and r ichmond a ddiction Services Society J.

Y ap betty a nne Devitt and c owichan Valley basket Society b. r outley Western hockey l eague activities b. bennett oral Questions ......................................................................................................................................................................... 6954 r evenue neutrality of harmonized sales tax b. r alston h on. k. f alcon Government tax policies after harmonized sales tax referendum b. r alston h on. k. f alcon M. Mungall c. Jame s J. h organ bedbug infestations and control S. c handra h erbert h on.

M. de Jong emergency grant policy for disability assistance recipients M. k aragianis h on. h. b loy S. Simpson b.c. Place roof replacement J. kwan h on. P . bell Point of Privilege (r eservation of r ight) ............................................................................................................................. 6959 h on. r . c oleman

Orders of the Day c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 6959 e stimates: Ministry of a ttorney General (continued) l. k rog h on. b. Penner Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 6981 e stimates: Ministry of c hildren and f amily Development (continued) c. t revena h on. M. Mcn eil

6951 thurSD a Y , MaY 12, 2011 The h ouse met at 1:34 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Introductions by Members B. Routley: i see a couple of guests from the c owichan Valley here. i'd like to introduce to the l egislature k en Mcewan, an old buddy from back in the days when i worked in the l ocal 1-80 office, back in the 1980s and '90s. i see k en is here today, and that's a surprise. a lso, i have the most amazing constituency assistants. i have Debra t oporowski and Doug Morgan with me here today. Would the l egislature please join me in wel- coming these guests. [1335] Hon. G.

Abbott: in the gallery today is brendon Dawson. brendon is the eldest son of my minister - ial assistant, k en Dawson. brendon has just returned to c anada after completing a term volunteering with c anada World Y outh, where he and 18 other students volunteered in community development projects in rural indonesia. brendon is off to Queen's u niversity in k ingston, ontario, this September. h is mother and father are look- ing forward to him excelling there and also returning at some point to british c olumbia. So could the h ouse please make brendon welcome. Hon.

M. de Jong: i wish to introduce to the h ouse two young women i have been most pleased to make ac- quaintances with recently. interjections. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. M. de Jong: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. a little de - corum, perhaps, in the chamber. Shazia r ana is working in my office as an administra- tive assistant and is a very, very talented young lady who has completed graduate-level work.

She is one of those people that members on both sides of the h ouse are for- tunate to have and follow the calling into public service. i hope the h ouse will make Shazia feel welcome in her first visit to the chamber. a mber Mann is in the midst of her post-secondary career.

She has returned to british c olumbia, where she resides with her family and grew up with her family, from eastern c anada, where she is undertaking her stud- ies at the moment and is contemplating, as well, dipping her toe into the reservoir of public service as it is pre - sented here in the legislative precincts. i hope members will help make a mber Mann feel welcome as well. N.

Simons: i'd just like to welcome to the h ouse k evin Sigouin from Powell r iver, a friend. h e's here visiting someone from the other side of the h ouse, but i won't hold that against him. h e's a constituent and a strong member of the community. Will the h ouse please make him welcome. Tributes Verna bJerkY Hon. B. Penner: Verna bjerky was born in 1964 and grew up in Y ale, british c olumbia. Thirty years ago this spring the 16-year-old disappeared while hitchhiking from h ope to visit her boyfriend in k amloops.

This was about the time that other children were going missing as a result of the activities of c lifford r obert o lson. t o this day Verna bjerky has never been found. t oday marks Verna's birthday. f amilies and friends, along with my wife and daughter, will join today at Y ale historic site c hurch of St. John the Divine for a memor- ial service. My wife grew up in Y ale, and her family knew the bjerkys. f ollowing the service they will go to the Y ale Pioneer c emetery to place flowers at Verna's memorial stone, then hold a potluck picnic nearby.

This service has been delayed until today in the hope of finding answers to what happened on that tragic day 30 years ago. i hope that today's service gives her family and friends the much-needed closure that they have been seeking for so long. i'm sure i speak for all members when i say that our thoughts and prayers are with them today as they share stories and memories and celebrate the life of Verna bjerky. Introductions by Members K. Conroy: i'd like to take the opportunity to intro - duce an old friend, Pat Sweeney, from c astlegar, who surprised me in the gallery today.

We used to work together in the pulp mill in c astlegar. Introduction and First Reading of Bills bill 10 — Will S, eState S an D SucceSS ion aMenDMent a ct, 2011 h on. b. Penner presented a message from h is h on- our the a dministrator: a bill intituled Wills, e states and Succession a mendment a ct, 2011.

british c olumbia Debates6952 t hursday, May 12, 2011 Hon. B. Penner: i move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. B. Penner: i am pleased to introduce the amendments to the Wills, e states and Succession a ct. These amendments address how n isga'a and treaty first n ations laws impact the transfer of treaty land upon death.

There are also some housekeeping amendments. f or example, we've updated the legislation to refer to the new Supreme c ourt civil rules. i move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the h ouse after today. bill 10, Wills, e states and Succession a mendment a ct, 2011, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the h ouse after today. [1340] Statements (Standing Order 25B) Ma Y GutteriDGe anD St . Ja Me S co MMunit Y Ser Vice Societ Y J.

Kwan: on Saturday, May 14, people will gather in the parish hall at St. James c hurch on e ast c ordova Street to celebrate the life of May Gutteridge, an event called a Day in May for Mrs. G. May was born on May 21, 1917, in england. She was dressed in her Women's r oyal n avy Service uniform when she married a rthur Gutteridge, a school teacher, in 1940. They moved to Saskatchewan in 1955 with their three children, where May joined in a range of community activities.

She ran a Scouts troop, was a sub- stitute teacher, developed a kindergarten, supervised a 4-h c lub and reopened a school for a group of children who could not get schooling anywhere else. Three years later the family moved to Vancouver, and May started to worship at St. James a nglican c hurch. There in the Downtown e astside she played a leading role in outreach and care for the homeless and the poor. a t first, May looked after seniors in the church's base- ment. She started St. James service in 1961, a home help program in 1962 and the first shelter for abused women in the Downtown eastside in 1965.

She also found time to organize free legal aid at the Gastown workshop and a program to help administer the funds of social assistance clients. l ater she was in - volved in setting up housing for seniors and the first freestanding hospice in british c olumbia. This astonishing contribution to the community was recognized. May received the order of c anada, the b.c. senior citizen of the year award, the Silver e agle f eather a ward and the Pioneer a ward. She also received awards from c hinatown organizations and an honorary doctor- ate of laws from Simon f raser u niversity.

When May died on f ebruary 26, 2002, St. James c ommunity Service Society was a large social service agency with 250 employees and an annual budget of $10 million. She never received an income for her many years of service. i am one of the many people who admired the pas - sion of May's commitment to serving the residents of the Downtown e astside and regret that i'm unable to at- tend the event. i ask all members of the h ouse to please join me in honouring her. cruiS e ShiP terMinal in nanaiM o R.

Cantelon: f or thousands of years the canoes of the Salish people would visit the beautiful sheltered har- bour of the Snuneymuxw first n ation, the first n ations people for whom n anaimo is named. This week 2,100 new visitors aboard the Norwegian Pearl arrived at this beautiful harbour. The new floating Visiting Vessel Pier made it easy for the tourists to disembark. u nlike the bare industrial dock that usually greets cruise ship passengers, they were welcomed ashore into a very modern and dis - tinctly west coast greeting centre.

This beautiful centre showcases the best of b.c.'s forest products, gleaming fir beams and lots of light, with windows showcasing the natural vistas — Gabriola island, looking over to Protection island. a huge tapestry created by Snuneymuxw artist n oel brown makes a dramatic statement about the history of the indigenous people and puts a stamp of their rich heritage on the centre. f rom the visitors' centre the tourists will be able to ex- plore and discover magnificent, breathtaking Vancouver island. f rom the majestic c athedral Grove to the murals in c hemainus or to tour around historic n anaimo and Protection island, perhaps learning more about Snuneymuxw culture and their ancient history, there's much to do and see on our beautiful island. n ow, like so many projects in n anaimo, this was a cooperative and collaborative venture, the concept of a shared vision that combined the economic aspirations of the Port of n anaimo; the city of n anaimo; Snuneymuxw first n ation; Malaspina c ollege, now Vancouver island u niversity; and the n anaimo a irport.

These groups agreed that it was in everyone's best in - terests to mutually support and endorse each other's projects in a unified approach. indeed, the economic and cultural sum of these complementary efforts has proven to be greater than that of the total of the individual parts. This approach was critical in attracting funding support from the provincial government, the federal govern - ment and the island c oastal e conomic t rust.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 12, 2011 6953 a new standard has been set in n anaimo, especially with respect to working with first n ations, so let's con - gratulate them. arthritiS a WareneSS anD funD raiS in G Walk R.

Fleming: in 2010 the a rthritis Society hosted the very first inaugural Walk to fight a rthritis in 17 cities across c anada and raised almost $1 million. building on the success of the first year of this event, the society has now expanded the walk to 25 c anadian cities, in - cluding Victoria. [1345] This Sunday, May 15, island residents will join together in a one- or five-kilometre walk to raise funds for the more than 600,000 people — men, women and children — in b.c. and Yukon living with arthritis. l ocal organ- izers are calling on island businesses, organizations and individuals to come together to donate to the a rthritis Society while enjoying a beautiful walk along Victoria's inner h arbour. in addition to increasing arthritis awareness, all of the donations gathered will help support arthritis re - search here in Victoria and across Vancouver island. a rthritis is the number one cause of pain and disabil - ity in n orth a merica.

There are over 100 known types. Most c anadians have been touched by this disease — directly themselves or in supporting a friend, spouse, family member or co-worker with arthritis.

While the condition is incurable at this time, the good news is that steps can be taken to improve the quality of life of those living with the disease, including regular physical activity. t o date the society has invested $165 million towards arthritis research, education programs and services to help those living with arthritis manage their disease. i'm proud to join Marnie e ssery and her team at the We c are h ome h ealth Services society from my con - stituency this weekend. Marnie e ssery was diagnosed with arthritis at the age of three. She has arthritis in 29 joints.

She has struggled with the pain and disability caused by arthritis for 39 years. h er courage and gener- osity to others is inspirational. i want to applaud the many volunteers who are or - ganizing for this weekend for the walk for arthritis and encourage my colleagues from the l egislative a ssembly to come and join us. Mr. Speaker: i remind members it's two-minute statements. turnin G Point reco Ver Y Societ Y anD richM onD aDD iction Ser ViceS Societ Y J. Y ap: in the last week i attended, along with the member for r ichmond e ast, two different but related events.

The first was t urning Point r ecovery Society's fourth annual Making r ecovery a r eality Gala last Thursday evening. This gala raises the profile of addic - tion support and helps remove the stigma attached to people with addictions. a ctress k atey Sagal spoke movingly about her addic - tion to alcohol and drugs and how she has been clean for 25 years. t urning Point's executive director, brenda Plant, tells me that well over $40,000 was raised at the event. t urning Point has 31 beds for women and men in r ichmond and Vancouver, and has served these com - munities for over 27 years.

They are leaders in providing essential care, residential care, and i salute them for their outstanding work. l ast Saturday i attended r ichmond a ddiction Services Society's inaugural youth week event called h ockey Day in r ichmond. e xecutive Director r ick Dubras part - nered with f amily Services of Greater Vancouver to host a rousing day of floor hockey at a r ichmond high school. a fterwards, Theo fleury, former c algary flame and best-selling author of Playing with Fire , delivered a powerful message to youth about substance abuse, gam- bling and sexual abuse.

Theo's addictions nearly resulted in suicide, but he turned his life around, reconnected with his children and remarried. h e now has been clean and sober for five years. r ichmond a ddiction Services has served the com - munity for 35 years and is a non-profit charitable society aimed at improving the lives of those affected by addiction. Please join me in congratulating these two societies on the great work they do in r ichmond and british c olumbia. bett Y anne D e Vitt an D co Wichan Valle Y ba Sket Societ Y B. Routley: i would like to share with you a little about an extraordinary c owichan Valley volunteer.

Since 1987 betty a nne Devitt has been serving up heap- ing portions of love and compassion that go along with the soup and sandwiches and food hampers provided by the c owichan Valley basket Society. betty a nne volunteered six days a week and always offered a listening ear or a hug to the people she loved to serve.

She is quick to praise and thank everyone around her, including the many wonderful volunteers, local businesses, media and all the generous people of the c owichan Valley who offer incredible support and help. betty a nne can soften the toughest and biggest of the bunch too with her own brand of tough love. When someone showed up drunk or on drugs, she would just say in a firm but soft voice: "Sorry, you can't be in here." She would call them by name. "Y ou know better than that." Most often they would just reply: "Sorry, betty

british c olumbia Debates6954 t hursday, May 12, 2011 a nne." She would always add: "Y ou're welcome to come back when you've sobered up." [1350] once betty a nne expressed concern that one of the regulars had not been in for a while. Word went out, and soon they found him sick and alone. but not for long. She sent friends and warm soup. l ater when he ended up in the hospital, she asked who could go up and see him. a group of them went up and read the bible to him just before he died. She emphasized: "h e didn't die alone.

We're like a family here at the c owichan Valley basket Society." betty a nne is now retiring from her more than two decades of full-time volunteer service, and she is here with us up in the gallery. Please join with me in thank - ing betty a nne for her generous contribution to our communities and our province. Thank you, betty a nne. [a pplause.] We Stern hocke Y lea Gue acti Vitie S B. Bennett: t oday i'm talking hockey. The league is called the Whl, the Western h ockey l eague, and more nhl players come from the Whl than any other league in the world.

This is the hockey that's played by those few elite teen- age players that come all the way up through their minor hockey program from all of the smaller and larger and medium-sized communities in western c anada — b.c. towns like cranbrook, where the n iedermayer brother came from, Steve Yzerman, the Murdoch brothers and about a dozen others; Sicamous, where Shea Weber, the great Predators' defenceman learned the basics of hockey. They play as many games as the pros in a season, but they travel by bus from cranbrook to Portland, brandon to k elowna, and they attend school.

Many of them go on to post-secondary education through the Whl scholar - ship program. My team in the Whl is, of course, the k ootenay ice, who have had 13 consecutive winning seasons. That's the best record in the Whl. The ice are now playing for the Whl championship against the Portland Winterhawks, whose arena can fit the whole population of cranbrook inside it. The series is three games to one for the ice with the fifth game in Portland f riday night. Whoever wins goes to the Memorial c up in t oronto. That will be the third trip, if we get there, for the ice to the Memorial c up in 13 seasons.

Winning the Memorial c up requires winning more games than it takes to win the Stanley c up. t o get to the Whl finals, the ice defeated the Moose Jaw Warriors in six games; the Saskatoon blades, who happen to be the Whl champions and the second-best rated team in the country, in four straight; and Medicine h at t igers in four straight. Win or lose the championship, this is a remarkable achievement for a group of dedicated young c anadians from the second-smallest c anadian junior hockey market in the country.

Please add the k ootenay ice to the Vancouver c anucks as b.c.'s teams this spring. c heer for them, at least for the next couple of weeks. Oral Questions re Venue neutralit Y of harM oniZeD SaleS taX B.

Ralston: Y esterday the finance Minister chided members, claiming they had not read the budget when he was asked why the b.c. l iberal government had pulled a complete about-face on its earlier promise of a revenue-neutral hS t . l et's check out what the previous finance Minister had to say after the September 2009 budget update and after the March 2, 2010, budget was tabled: "What i have said from the beginning is that the hS t will bring in approximately the same amount of revenue as the PS t system is today." So to the finance Minister: is he suggesting the hon. member for Vancouver-Quilchena didn't read his own budget?

Hon. K. Falcon: This sounds very consistent with the nDP , always trying to use selective bits of quotes and misinformation to try and draw a narrative. We've cer - tainly got used to that, but i do note that at least the

section of the quote that he quoted is remarkably aligned with exactly what was said in the September 2009 budget update, that the "harmonization is initially expected to be roughly fiscally neutral." That's what it said in the September '09 budget. it went on to say: "in future years harmonization is expected to result in increased revenues, because the hS t is a more stable and robust revenue source than the PSt and will contribute to enhanced economic growth." [1355] n ow that was repeated in Budget 2010.

Y ou know, i know that the members apparently don't read that and they like to draw a narrative that is not aligned with facts, but the fact of the matter is it was there — clear as day. We've always been clear. it was expected to be in - itially neutral, but it would have positive revenue growth in the future. That's exactly what it says. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B.

Ralston: Well, it is ironic that the minister would object to quoting the former Minister of finance from Hansard here in this h ouse — pretty long stretch to make that believable. but what we have here is a clear contradiction between two l iberal finance Ministers. is

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 12, 2011 6955 it any wonder that the public finds it very difficult to ac- cept anything this finance Minister says? So is he going to continue to explain this contradic - tion by saying the former finance Minister didn't read his own budget documents? Hon. K. Falcon: i didn't think that the finance critic, of all people, would want to go there, talking about mis- informed or misinformation.

This is the very person that stood up and asked the question in the h ouse that demonstrated a complete lack of understanding about basic elements of the hS t rebates. a s we have said many times in this h ouse, as i've an- swered in many, many questions, the harmonization — the decision to harmonize the GS t and the PS t — is consistent with what 140 jurisdictions around the world have done. it is interesting to me that the nDP finance critic and, in fact, the l eader of the o pposition are campaigning to restore a retail sales tax, which is called the PSt . a ctually, that would be setting a new record, in that no jurisdic - tion in the world has adopted a retail sales tax in the last 35 years, but that's what the nDP want to do in british c olumbia.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supple - mental. Go VernMent taX PolicieS after har Moni Ze D Sale S ta X referen Du M B.

Ralston: Well, the current finance Minister and the former finance Minister are going to have to sit down and get their stories straight. l et me refer to something else the previous finance Minister said. h e said: "i f the referendum goes against the hS t , then what will trigger is the return of the prov- incial sales tax system that we had before." but yet this finance Minister, in what looks like a veiled threat to voters, was on the radio hinting he might play a shell game with the previous PSt exemptions.

So to the finance Minister: will he rise today and commit to returning to the PS t as it was, with its pre - vious exemptions, when the hS t is voted down in the referendum? Hon. K. Falcon: i appreciate the opportunity to use up question period on behalf of my colleagues an - swering questions i've already answered before. So i'm happy to re-answer that question. What i said was that i am not going to make com - mitments — good, bad or indifferent — with respect to the PS t because a responsible finance Minister is actually going to wait until the results of a referen - dum.

Then i am going to engage in a conversation with british c olumbians to make sure we do the right thing for british c olumbians with respect to the PSt and GS t , if that is the decision of the voters. M. Mungall: Well, bicycles and bike repairs, vitamins and naturopaths, school supplies, energy-saving appli - ances…. This finance Minister is refusing to ensure that PSt exemptions will return to british c olumbians when the hS t is voted down. Y et of course, that is precisely the intention of the referendum question.

So to the Minister of finance. is he planning to be - tray voters yet again, or will he commit to going back to the PSt with its previous exemptions when the hS t is voted down? Hon. K. Falcon: i want to thank the member for n elson-creston for coming forward with a suggestion on how the hS t might be improved. i n fact, if…. interjection. [1400] Hon. K. Falcon: i thought it was her turn to ask the question. a s you well know, we are engaged in a listening exer - cise right now with british c olumbians.

This may startle the nDP: to date there have been almost 200,000 british c olumbians that have participated in that exercise. The purpose of that exercise is to listen to ideas from british c olumbians on how we might improve the hS t . i've made a note of a suggestion from the member op - posite. but i can tell you this. The one thing we know for sure, and what the independent panel report clearly stated, was that, on balance, the hS t is a good, forward- moving decision for the province of british c olumbia to generate revenue, to generate jobs and to ensure that we have a growing economy in british c olumbia.

That's what we're trying to do on this side of the h ouse. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M. Mungall: h onesty, stability — that's what small businesses around this province are looking for from government, and they're not getting it from the b.c. l iberals. f amilies want to know the intention of the referen - dum. Will it be respected or whether the b.c. l iberals are yet again going to betray them? These are the same small businesses, these are the same families who are shoul - dering the burden of this tax shift. Meanwhile, the b.c. l iberals' corporate buddies are reaping the rewards.

Will the Minister of finance be upfront with b.c. businesses and b.c. families and commit today that pre - viously exempted items under the PSt will be exempted once again once the hS t is voted down? Hon. K. Falcon: i hope the member for n elson- creston is fully aware of what party she ran with, because

british c olumbia Debates6956 t hursday, May 12, 2011 i think if she had done the most basic research into what her party stands for with respect to small business, she might not be asking this question. This is the party that had a small business tax rate of almost 9 percent in the 1990s. That's the party. We have reduced that rate down to 2½ percent. but i've saved the best for last, because the l eader of the o pposition, the leader of her party, actually is cam - paigning on a platform to raise the small business tax rate 80 percent. That's the record of the nDP . C.

James: if the finance Minister had been listening, he'd know that the public has had enough of this govern- ment trying to mislead them on the hS t . They've had enough of a tax that is making it more difficult for them. The public deserves to know if this minister and the b.c. l iberals are going to betray the public once more when the hS t is voted down.

The home-building industry in Victoria certainly wants to know this finance Minister's intention. c asey e dge, the executive director of the Victoria branch of the c anadian h ome builders a ssociation, says the hS t implementation on homes previously exempt under the PSt adds significantly to the cost. h e said: "We're wait- ing on the June referendum to see how that goes." So my question is to the finance Minister, again: will he commit to going back to the PS t with its pre - vious exemptions when the hS t is voted down in the referendum? Hon. K.

Falcon: i feel like there's a broken record taking place here. i've already answered that question. i answered it the day before yesterday. i answered it yes - terday. i answered it today, and apparently, the members don't wish to listen to the answer. [1405] but i do know that many of the public, including all the members on this side, are certainly curious to know how the nDP is going to square their own position on this. a s i have pointed out, they are campaigning to return to a PSt -plus-GSt system.

What is notable about that is the fact that the independent panel reported out that the costs over a two-year period are almost $3 billion in lost revenue to the province. Y et we hear the members opposite, the nDP , every day in this h ouse talking about how government should be spending more in every single ministry.

Whether it's the a ttorney General, the environment Minister, the h ealth Minister, the e ducation Minister, the Solicitor General, it's: "More spending, more spending, more spending." That's the nDP message. i'd sure like to know how the members are going to square that — campaigning on a platform that will de - prive government of almost $3 billion of revenues. i would love to hear that answer. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. C.

James: Perhaps the finance Minister, since he won't listen to the public, would like to listen to his own leader. i'd like to quote what the current Premier said about the hS t in 2009: "i mean, we've talked a lot about the increase, the extras you're going to be paying on every single restaurant bill, but what about the cost of housing? Y ou could be doubling the tax you're going to be paying on that. i mean, it's absolutely ridiculous." n ow, here's another quote from just this spring, from the finance Minister's leader, the current Premier.

"When it comes to the hS t , the public wants straight an- swers, not a position that shifts without warning. This type of doubletalk on the hS t is damaging to the pub - lic trust government must have to be successful." Well, that view didn't last long. a ll we're getting from the b.c. l iberals is doubletalk over and over again. a gain, a direct question to the finance Minister, a yes- or-no answer: will the finance Minister stand up today, commit to returning the PS t with its previous exemp - tions when the hS t is voted down? Hon. K.

Falcon: The member should listen in on one of these telephone town halls, where we have listened to almost 200,000 british c olumbians with respect to the hS t . in fact, i was so thrilled to see… interjections. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. K. Falcon: …that we've listened as the voters of Vancouver–Point Grey sent the newly elected mem - ber for Vancouver–Point Grey out to Victoria.

That is certainly notable to the extent that, up until the election results yesterday, there has been no government — not nDP , not Social credit, not b.c. l iberal — that has won a by-election in 30 years, but yesterday this government won a by-election. We are proud of that. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1410] J. Horgan: if the t witterverse is any indication of how the l iberals felt at 9:30 last night, i don't think they were as cocky. but i digress. interjections. J.

Horgan: of course you did. a nd i know all of the members that used to be in cabinet and are not today felt really shucks about that last night as well. My question is to the finance Minister. i know he and his sidekick the bike rider from Peace r iver South have

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 12, 2011 6957 been making phone calls. i want to give this opportun - ity now: phone a friend on this side of the h ouse. There are 34 people sitting over here who have lots of sugges - tions for you. one suggestion, if you did manage to find my phone number in the book, that i would give you is: if the ref - erendum on the hS t is defeated, will you commit today, Minister…? Y ou don't have to spend 5 million bucks to get this answer. Will you just tell the public today for nothing, for free…? Y ou don't even have to make the phone call.

Will you restore the exemptions that were in place before you screwed up the tax system in british c olumbia? Hon. K. Falcon: i was tempted to make a comment about the former moderates in that party, if there were a few.

There were some that have now been, of course, pushed aside with the new hard-liners of the left led by the h ouse l eader on the opposite side. a s i say, i always continue to be fascinated with the positions that the members opposite take on public policy. e ven countries around the world, as i've men - tioned before, whether it's c hina or n orth Vietnam or South Vietnam, recognize that harmonized sales taxes are better than retail sales taxes. only the nDP , appar- ently, want to campaign for an option that no jurisdiction, as i say, in 35 years has selected. but having said that, Mr. Speaker, look.

The fact of the matter is that we are engaged in the most massive, lar - gest public reach-out to engage british c olumbians, to listen to british c olumbians, to answer questions from british c olumbians and to solicit input from british c olumbians on how we can improve the hS t . That's exactly what we're going to do on this side of the h ouse. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. be Dbu G infe Station S an D control S.

Chandra Herbert: bedbugs have been on the rise all across b.c. one Ministry of h ealth report suggests that they have increased over 600 percent in Metro Vancouver under the b.c. l iberals' watch. in addition to the huge costs and impacts on renters, landlords and businesses to try to fight them, a new study from St. Paul's h ospital raises questions about the possibility they could be responsible for spreading serious life- threatening illnesses. When will the minister take real action to stop this disgusting pest and protect british c olumbia families from this scourge? Hon.

M. de Jong: Thanks to the member for raising an important issue. There's no question that based on the literature that's been developed over the last number of years, particularly in urban settings, there has been a proliferation of bedbugs. Whilst in the past we may have joked about this, it has apparently got beyond be - ing a joke. There was material published today about a study. i say for the member and others that we take the matter very seriously, but at the same time, the report that was published emanated from a very small study.

The author of that study has urged that we not jump to conclusions about the transmission of bacteria, though that is some- thing the ministry is following up. i can assure all members and british c olumbians that we are also doing what we can to ensure that british c olumbians have access to information about how to contain and eradicate bedbugs, if and when they dis - cover that they have infested their home. [1415] Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S.

Chandra Herbert: a 600 percent increase in Metro Vancouver under this government. h undreds of thou - sands, if not millions, in costs to renters, to landlords and to businesses. a simple and effective way to combat bedbugs is through strong public education. Manitoba is doing it. ontario is doing it. but this b.c. l iberal government has consistently done nothing, while this problem has got - ten worse. When will this minister stand up for b.c. families and join with other provinces to stop bedbugs from spread - ing in our communities? Hon.

M. de Jong: Whilst i appreciate the mem - ber raising an important issue in the h ouse, i am less impressed by the manner in which he seeks to sensa - tionalize the issue or assign political blame for a topic that transcends politics. There is an issue. My sense is that it has, particularly in urban centres, gotten worse. That is a trend that we see tracking across n orth a merica. There are thoughts about what might be causing that. The ministry and the health authorities have been taking steps over the last number of years.

We intend to step up those efforts to ensure that people have the information they require to take steps necessary to ar - rest and eradicate bedbugs when they discover that they have infested their home. eMer GencY Grant PolicY for DiSabilit Y a SSiStance reci Pient S M. Karagianis: a ndre Pepin, in my community, survives on disability payments, and he's a diabetic. r ecently a ndre lost his wallet and found himself with

british c olumbia Debates6958 t hursday, May 12, 2011 no money. h e sought emergency help. Due to the b.c. l iberal policies, the emergency funding that a ndre got was $20, Mr. Speaker — $20 for him to live on till the end of this month. My question is to the Minister of Social Development. c an he explain how the government calculated that a person can live on $20 a month? Hon. H. Bloy: i do not have details on this. i'll take it under notice and get back to you. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental, and it's a different question. M.

Karagianis: i'm actually asking about a policy here. i'm not asking about the minister to…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. M. Karagianis: Sadly, it's part of the devastation of social services in this province that this government, this b.c. l iberal government, has eliminated the abil - ity of caseworkers to use discretion on how they help people like a ndre with the supports they need. My question is to the minister. h ow does he expect a ndre to live on $20? That's a dollar a day from now till the end of the month. it is a policy that this minister should be familiar with. interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Members. Member, the minister took it on notice. if you have another question, ask a separate question. M. Karagianis: Thank you very much, hon. Speaker. S. Simpson: My question is to the Minister of Social Development as well. The policies of the b.c. l iberal government are forcing staff in this ministry to do work that is not progressive, not compassionate and, frankly, not practical. Part of that includes the emergency grant — $20.

The minister doesn't have to take this on notice. i will tell him his policy: $20 a month. it doesn't matter whether you need it on the first day or the last day of the month. That's the reality. My question to the minister is this: does he think it is realistic to ask someone to live for two weeks on $20, and if not, what is he going to do about it? Hon. H. Bloy: a s minister responsible for Social Development, a very big area….

Y ou know, we look at best practices for every individual. i have all the con - fidence in the staff of Social Development to be able to work with individuals. i've already taken this question under advisement, and i will report back to the h ouse. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. [1420] S. Simpson: h on. Speaker, it's time for this minis - ter to get a handle on his file. h e's had this ministry for months. h e's dealing with the most vulnerable people in this province, and he does not know what he's do - ing.

That's the reality. it's time for the minister to speak for his ministry. h e doesn't have his staff here to consult, to write the answers out. h e doesn't have those people here. Will the minister stand up and will he tell us whether he thinks that $20 is the best practice for dealing with emergency shelters. Hon. H. Bloy: h on. Speaker…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Minister, just take your seat. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. H.

Bloy: This ministry works very hard, and i am proud of the work that this staff does to help individ- uals in our communities and working through Ministry of Social Development. Y ou know, we have reduced the number of people on social development. We have improved their lives over the last number of years, un - like the nDP . it had a 10 percent increase in the '90s, of clients. b.c. P lace roof reP laceMent J. Kwan: My question is to the minister of Jobs, t ourism and innovation. c ould he please confirm for this h ouse that the b.c. Place roof is actually on time and on budget. Hon. P .

Bell: There is a term that the members oppos- ite might not be used to. it's called a fixed-price contract. That's exactly what b.c. Place is under. We expect it will be brought in within the original allocation. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. J. Kwan: We've heard that before, and that would be with the convention centre. With respect to the govern -

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 12, 2011 6959 ment's promise that it's on time and on budget, we now know that that is not the case. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. J. Kwan: The minister says that the b.c. Place roof is on time and on budget. Would he submit to this h ouse the documentation verifying the cost of the b.c. sta - dium roof budget? Hon. P . Bell: Just in the way that the member opposite asked the question, clearly she does not understand busi- ness practices. The Vancouver t rade and c onvention c entre was not a fixed-price contract. b.c.

Place is a fixed-price contract, and it will come in within the $563 million allocation. [end of question period.] Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right) Hon. R. Coleman: Since it's my first opportunity, i reserve my right to bring a question of privilege to the house. Orders of the Day Hon. R.

Coleman: The business today, in this cham- ber, will be the estimates, continued, of the Ministry of a ttorney General, and in the little h ouse, c ommittee a, we will be doing Ministry of c hildren and f amily Development. [1425] Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y of attorne Y General (continued) The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section b); l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:30 p.m. on Vote 16: ministry operations, $351,678,000 (con- tinued). L.

Krog: a t the close of this morning's proceedings the a ttorney General, in response to my comments around the forgiving of the assets that were recovered by security to the crown for the legal fees of Mr. basi, indi- cated that that decision was made entirely independent of him. it was last year's budget, etc. i suppose that raises a very obvious question. That decision was made by the Deputy a ttorney General and the Deputy Minister of finance, as i understand it. i just wanted to know: did the a ttorney General and does the a ttorney General, in fact, support that decision? Hon. B.

Penner: The member will be aware that at the time of this decision, back last fall, the deputy ministers involved issued a public statement with their rationale, explaining the decision that they made. That is part of the public record. if the member so wants, i can read that into the record for the purposes of this debate as well. but i'll be in the member's hands on that, if he wishes me to refer to that for him. c ertainly, i have seen and heard nothing to suggest that the deputies did anything other than what they con- sidered to be appropriate, given the circumstances they were facing.

That advice or that opinion is contained in the statement that they made public last fall. i don't know if the member is taking issue with that statement, but per- haps this would be the time, if he wants to do that. L. Krog: i thought the question was fairly straight - forward. i asked the a ttorney General: given that he was a member of cabinet, did he then and does he still sup - port the decision taken by the deputy minister? Hon. B.

Penner: i was not the a ttorney General at the time. i became a ttorney General on December 1, 2010. but again, to the member's question, i haven't seen any- thing to suggest that anything inappropriate took place. if the member wants to make such an allegation and level that against the deputy ministers, this would be his opportunity. [1435] L.

Krog: i will perhaps speak more slowly to try and make this as clear as i possibly can to the a ttorney General, the minister responsible for his ministry, the person in this chamber who speaks for the Ministry of a ttorney General. i appreciate he was only a member of executive coun- cil in the broad sense when the decision was taken. The same Deputy a ttorney General serves him as served his predecessor. i'm asking quite simply: the decision taken by the Deputy a ttorney General and the Deputy Minister of finance — does the a ttorney General sup - port it — yes or no? Hon. B.

Penner: a s the member well knows, it's not up to the elected people to make decisions about things dealing with specific criminal cases, and that's appro - priate. it was not a matter where the elected a ttorney General, at the time that this decision was made, was called upon to make a decision. That is a decision that

british c olumbia Debates6960 t hursday, May 12, 2011 was made by the professional public servants that repre- sent the ministries, work on behalf of the ministries and on behalf of british c olumbians. in fact it's not, in my view, appropriate for you to ask me what i would do in a specific instance, when it's not the role of elected officials to interfere in specific prosecutions. That has not been the practice in british c olumbia in recent decades, thank goodness, and i don't think it should be.

That isn't to say that some of us didn't have concerns when we heard about the costs that were incurred throughout the case. The member, i think, is referring to what's been known as the Virk-basi matter. That took, i think, seven years from start to finish in terms of investigation and prosecution, ultimately leading up to convictions for two individuals. That was a lengthy, time-consuming process, and expensive. Do i have concerns about the overall time and length and expense of that matter?

Y es, i do. but is it up to me to inject myself into specific prosecutions and the con - duct of those matters? i would suggest to the member opposite that that's not appropriate. L. Krog: Ministerial accountability means that the minister is responsible for the decisions taken by his ministry. That's a pretty simple and basic proposition. My question, again, to the a ttorney General is a very simple one: does he support the decision taken by his deputy minister? Hon. B.

Penner: t o be completely clear, it was not a political decision. it was not made by elected representa- tives. it was made by professional public servants. if the member's asking me a more direct question — do i sup- port those public servants? — the answer is yes, and more specifically, i support my Deputy attorney General. L. Krog: Well, if we're going to get specific, perhaps the a ttorney General could state specifically that he sup- ports the decision taken by the Deputy a ttorney General in this matter. Hon. B.

Penner: Y es, i do, based on the information that i have, which is that this was a decision reached by not just one deputy but more than one deputy, based on the circumstances that they were provided with. h e hasn't specifically done so, but to refresh the member's memory, on o ctober 20, 2010, the following statement was issued by members. i think, for the pur - poses of this discussion, i'll read it into the record. "it is important to clarify for the record the circumstances relat- ing to the decision to release Mr. basi and Mr.

Virk from their lia- bility to repay their legal costs of the prosecution that concluded this week with their guilty pleas. "on o ctober 5, 2010, it came to the attention of the legal ser - vices branch, Ministry of a ttorney General, that the special pros- ecutor had proposed resolution of their prosecutions through guilty pleas.

Discussions then took place between the legal ser - vices branch and defence counsel, including with respect to their clients' liability to repay their legal costs." Then in brackets: "The indemnities provided that they would have to do so unless acquitted on all counts." end of brackets. "The legal services branch referred the matter to me and to the Deputy Minister of f inance. The Deputy Minister of f inance has authority under the f inancial a dministration a ct respecting this matter. he and i considered this issue.

"a major consideration was the relatively small amounts that might be recovered from Mr. basi and Mr. Virk compared to the millions of additional dollars it would cost the government to continue to fund defence, prosecution and court-related costs through to the completion of the trial and to fund any appeals with no guarantees of convictions. [1440] "based on the above, in our respective capacities, the Deputy Minister of f inance and i decided to release Mr. basi and Mr.

Virk from their liability to repay. i communicated that decision to the a ttorney General on o ctober 8, 2010. n o one outside the legal services branch, myself and the Deputy Minister of f inance had any knowledge of this or involvement." f or clarity, neither the special prosecutor nor the a ttorney General had any knowledge of the matter or involvement in this. "a letter is being sent today to counsel for Mr. basi and counsel for Mr.

Virk releasing them and their clients from the o ctober 14, 2010, condition that require they not discuss the above financial matters and that they refer all inquiries to the Ministry of a ttor- ney General." That is the full content of the statement issued on o ctober 20, 2010. L. Krog: i think the a ttorney General could quite simply have said yes to my question about five questions ago, and we would have saved the last ten minutes of the debate. back on the topic which led to this question being asked — Foundation for Change: Report of the Public Commission on Legal Aid in British Columbia. Mr.

Doust concludes, and i quote from page 8: "i have no hesitation in concluding that legal aid is an essential public service in our society. f or the reasons contained in this report, it is my view that in a just society, it is a public service that is as essential as education, health care and social assistance." i'd like to hear the a ttorney General's position on that statement. Hon. B.

Penner: o bviously, given the fact that our government has maintained legal aid funding for the last number of years — and this year all contributions from the provincial government will total approximately $70 million to the l egal Services Society, which provides legal aid services in the province — i think the answer is yes. We agree with Mr. Doust that the provision of legal aid is very important in british c olumbia. We are looking forward to finding ways that we can continue to improve efficiencies and service delivery in

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 12, 2011 6961 looking for new models and new ways that we can do that knowing that we are living in fiscally constrained times. a s i've said this morning, the budgets are tight, but nevertheless, we've been able to maintain core fund- ing this year at the same levels it was for the last couple of years for the l egal Services Society. L. Krog: Mr.

Doust also states that b.c. has "fallen from being a leader in legal aid provision" from the mid- 90s and concludes: "the legal aid system is failing to meet even the most basic needs of british c olumbians." h e says, and i quote in particular from page 7: "based on the evidence presented to me, i cannot come to any conclusion other than that the services provided in british c olum- bia today are too little, their longevity or consistency too uncer- tain.

This result is the consequence of the cutbacks and lack of sufficient and consistent financing, even though l SS has done its very best, and in my view has done everything possible to accom- modate the needs within their limited budgetary restrictions." What does the a ttorney General have to say about that statement by Mr. Doust? [1445] Hon. B. Penner: i certainly concur with Mr. Doust. i think we can all agree that lSS has done its very best and that, yes, these are fiscally constrained times. but it brings us back to the discussion we had this morning.

Where is the additional funding supposed to come from that the member is asking for?

This morning his suggestion was that perhaps the government shouldn't be funding people to get off the habit of nicotine and cigarettes, notwithstanding the well-documented health threat that cigarette smoking causes and the painful tragedy that cancer represents. it is a challenging time in government when budgets are constrained and revenues aren't what we might hope they are. but we heard it again this afternoon in question period: the finance Minister pointing out that the op - position themselves are campaigning in order to remove $3 billion from future government revenue. f acing the prospect of $3 billion less to spend is a pretty daunting prospect. it does behoove me to ask the member: where would that $3 billion come from if not from additional revenue from the hS t , due to an expanded tax base, a more efficient economy, a tax struc- ture that encourages investment in job creation, and not having to pay the federal government back $1.6 billion in transition funding? if all of those things happen and we're out $3 billion, how does the member propose we increase the budget for the l egal Services Society?

L.

Krog: i appreciate that we have limited time today, and i may abandon this topic for a while. if we have a chance to come back to it, i certainly will. but i'd like to move on to discuss the issue of justice transformation. in 2009 the pre-election budget com - mitted $8,227,400 to justice transformation, $3.895 million for justice reform, and $4.379 million for com - munity courts. in 2010 the government budgeted only $1.408 mil - lion. in 2011 this line item no longer even exists. i'm just wondering if the a ttorney General can advise the h ouse exactly what that translates into in terms of justice transformation.

Hon. B.

Penner: a number of things. first of all, i'm advised that this funding was always intended to be time-limited, as it was to assist with transformations for a number of different projects, including the downtown community court, which is now up and running, and the prolific offender management program, which is also running. [1450] Some of the policy capacity and some other expenses were transferred to a different heading — to the justice services and court services branches — which i'm told is something they think will produce additional efficien- cies and reduce overhead as we continue to work on bringing some transformations to the justice system.

L. Krog: i'm conscious of the fact that i am just a woefully ignorant person, but of course i'm speaking on behalf of the public. That's my job. Therefore, i have to elicit answers, hopefully, from the minister, which will explain to the public what's happened. So you look at a line item in the budget that was $8 million back in 2009, and now that line item no longer exists. c an the a ttorney General tell me: are the same amount of moneys available, or is the community court process going to disappear? Perhaps he could be a little more specific in his answer. Hon. B.

Penner: i just want to confirm we're talking about the same line item. The document i have indicates operating expense for 2010-2011 of $4.9 million. i think i heard the member say $8 million. i'm just trying to confirm if we're talking about the same issue. L. Krog: We're talking about what was referred to as justice transformation. That was the original line item back in 2010. So what i'm trying to determine is the community courts…. l et me give the minister an ex - ample of one which we know has been cut, for instance.

The funding was cut to the l angley special prosecutor domestic violence pilot project in 2009. That, i believe, was covered under justice transformation, as an ex - ample. it's just gone. What i'm trying to determine is the community courts, the Vancouver community court experiment — where's the money for that gone? is it be- ing funded at exactly the same level it was a couple of years ago? i understand it was supposed to be a tempor - ary project, but i presume it's continuing. So where is it? h ow much is it? is it getting funded? [1455]

british c olumbia Debates6962 t hursday, May 12, 2011 Hon. B. Penner: l et me try to restate what happened here. The change or the vector from 2010-11 to 2011-12 for justice transformation — my documents show $4.9 million to $1.4 million. i'm told that the balance or the difference is accounted for — the money that represents the difference — by being moved to a different line item to support the downtown community court. it's the downtown community court amount that was taken out of this heading and moved somewhere else. That ex- plains the difference from $4.9 million to $1.4 million, year over year. L.

Krog: The line item no longer exists in the 2011 budget. So what's happened to that $1.4 million that was left in that line item in 2010, now given that it's dis - appeared in 2011? in other words, i want to know…. i'm not trying to be tricky. is the money there? is it being spent in the ways that it was before to support the com - munity court, or has it just disappeared? is it part of a cut? Where has it gone? Hon. B. Penner: i am advised that the community court is continuing to operate, and i don't think anyone will have seen any change. L.

Krog: Well, given that we can perhaps focus on that, it will provide some clarity. The community court in Vancouver continues to function. i assume the attorney General is saying that it's continuing to get the same amount of funding that it was before, but it's just dis - appeared into a new line item.

That's the first part of my question. i'm assuming that statement is correct. a ssuming that statement is correct, the promise was that it was to be an experiment. it was to be analyzed, it was to be looked at, it was to be carefully studied, and it would hopefully form the basis of an expansion. if that's the case, are there any plans whatsoever to expand it be- yond the Vancouver community court? Hon. B.

Penner: i'm told that we are evaluating the results and performance of the downtown community court model, as well as what i talked about this morning, which is the Victoria integrated c ourt program, or pilot program. That review or assessment is ongoing, and we should have some conclusions by next spring. L. Krog: i mean, this particular process — both the community court and the Victoria court approach — i think are ones that the opposition strongly supports.

They're supported by various groups in both commun - ities familiar with how the justice system and those with mental illness and addictions continuously interact, how much of the repetitive crime flows from people who suffer from mental illness combined with addictions issues. i'm just wondering how long we are going to be evaluating. i think, if i recall, your predecessor in this office indicated it was being evaluated last year. i may be wrong. i guess my question is: it still being evaluated? h ow long?

Y ou've indicated that evaluation is going to continue, but what's the nature of the evaluation? is somebody doing a study? is some academic from ubc stepping in, or is some student working on their mas - ter's? h ow is it being evaluated, or is this just a file sitting on the minister's desk somewhere, waiting for the min - ister to make up his mind that he's got to go back to cabinet and try and beg for more money? [1500] Hon. B. Penner: The downtown community court is coming up later this year on its third anniversary of being in operation.

There is something called the joint evaluation committee. i'm not sure that's the formal title, but that describes, i guess, the approach to organizing a review or an evaluation of the performance of the down- town community court project. i am told that the committee is comprised of repre - sentatives from the Provincial c ourt, the a ttorney General's ministry, the Solicitor General's ministry and the h ealth Ministry, and that they undertook last year an interim evaluation, mostly around the process of set- ting up the structures.

The final evaluation, as i indicated in my last answer, is anticipated in the spring of 2012. a mong the things we're looking at is not just the number of court appear - ances but trying to track some of the outcomes, what actually becomes of the people who have entered into the process through the downtown court. of course, that takes some time to get a bit of a longitudinal survey of how they fared once they've walked out the doors of the downtown community court. L. Krog: Just to step back a minute. Perhaps we can be quite specific, and it might assist the staff assisting the a ttorney General on my questions.

When we talked about the line item being "Justice transformation," what programs and initiatives specifically were covered under that line item in the 2009 budget, and what's happened to all of those programs now? Do they still exist? i mean, we understand the community court is continuing, the inte- grated court in Victoria, etc., but what other programs, if any, existed under that item and where are they? [1505] Hon. B. Penner: Sorry about the delay.

We're digging back a couple of years because the member referenced fiscal year 2009-2010, which is almost two years before i became a ttorney General. i think we found the item the member is referring to. i just want to reiterate what i said in my first answer on this topic, which is that this funding is initiated and has always been intended to be time-limited, in terms of

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 12, 2011 6963 helping to do policy development and get different pilot projects or experiments up and running. a number of those pilots were up and running, and served their pur - pose in terms of piloting different ideas. one, for example, was the bail reform project — which, i'm told, upon evaluation is not considered a great suc - cess. n evertheless, it was probably still worth trying. i'm not sure, but it was something that we did try and that was funded through this appropriation. o ther things like the downtown community court, as i've noted, are continuing to operate and are being evalu- ated.

We'll have more information on that, i guess, by next spring, in terms of the final evaluation after more than three years of its being in operation. i apologize for some of the difficulty in getting ex - act details because some of those questions go back to budgets from not just last year but the fiscal year prior to that year. L. Krog: Just to confirm, that line item would have included as well, then, the l angley special prosecutor domestic violence pilot project. That likewise has been cut. is that correct? Hon. B.

Penner: i've been advised that the specific program that the member was referencing in l angley was not, in fact, funded under the justice reform initia - tives, if that's the right term, or the justice transformation program. r ather, it was operated within the ministry as an idea, i think, named after a prosecutor by the name of Jocelyn c oupal.

That was not actually funded out of that other line item the member was referencing. i can advise further that the criminal justice branch has been significantly involved in the cross-ministry de- velopment of the — here's an acronym for you; it's the first one, i think, we've encountered today, which means we're doing pretty well — V a Wir , which i believe stands for Violence a gainst Women in r elationships. That would be my

interpretation of that. [1510] That has been completed, and our ministry has rolled out the new spousal assault policy, known as SPo 1 — there's our second new acronym for today — which includes standardized bail conditions developed in con- sultation with the corrections branch and the Ministry of Solicitor General. a dditionally, i'm told that the majority of the adminis- trative crown counsel have now taken the cross-ministry and police b-Safer risk assessment training developed by the Solicitor General Ministry. L. Krog: The a ttorney General is quite correct. i'm not very fond of acronyms myself.

Sometimes they're neither amusing nor helpful in terms of understanding what you're trying to talk about. People try and squeeze them in to fit the alphabet. The small claims pilot project — was that covered by justice transformation? What's happened to that? Hon. B. Penner: The small claims pilot project was launched in n ovember 2007, aiming to provide alterna- tive methods of dispute resolution that are faster, more accessible and proportionate to the amount in dispute. i'm advised it was not funded through the justice trans - formation line item but through some other means or mechanism, and it is ongoing. L.

Krog: The same question basically with respect to the on-line dispute resolution: was that part of justice transformation? Does it continue? is it still funded, and if so, where? Hon. B. Penner: i'm advised that this idea is con - ceptual at this stage, and it's being funded not from the transformation line item but out of base ministry budgets. L.

Krog: With respect to the community courts, which i think are the most significant aspect of justice trans - formation, is the a ttorney General inclined to indicate today any desire to move that up, to ask for the report sooner? i think there is a general consensus that it's successful, that it works, that it saves money, that it im - proves the lives, indeed, of the people who are involved in the justice system at that level. a part from finances — i guess this is my real ques - tion — is there any reason not to be proceeding more quickly with that? [1515] Hon. B.

Penner: i'm advised that the quality of the evaluation and the conclusions will be assisted by a ful - ler length of time. That's why the intended due date is spring of next year, so that we have a bit more of a longitudinal survey of how people have done, not just in terms of how many times they've had to appear at the community court and what other services they availed themselves of but what has happened to them since they left the community court.

We're interested in gathering the evidence, and i should have pointed out that included in reviewing the success of the project are representatives from Simon f raser u niversity, who are interested, as well, in getting accurate data. L. Krog: i want to ask some questions around the Victoria integrated c ourt program. Judge Quantz was on radio the other morning along with Deputy c hief Ducker of the Victoria police indicating that they cer - tainly were strongly supportive of that program. i'm just asking: is it fully funded for this year, and is there a budget for expansion, perhaps?

british c olumbia Debates6964 t hursday, May 12, 2011 Hon. B. Penner: i had a chance to listen to that inter- view the other day on the radio here in Victoria.

That program, although similar in intent, has a somewhat dif- ferent approach, and we are interested in learning from that one as well. it's a different way of getting at the same issue. i think it makes sense to evaluate carefully the ap - proach with the downtown community court, which is one model, and see how that compares to what's happen- ing here in Victoria with the integrated court program which, by the account i heard on the radio the other day, has led to a decrease in the number of calls police have had to respond to and issues of that nature. L.

Krog: a gain, i just want to come back to very specific questions about the Victoria integrated c ourt. is its budget covered for this year in this year's proposed budget, and/or is there any expansion for the budget for the coming year? Hon. B. Penner: i'm not aware of any specific or additional line item for funding the Victoria integrated c ourt pilot project. The Provincial c ourt judiciary are involved in that, as is the Ministry of a ttorney General.

We're participating by making available prosecutors and other court services staff to make that project work, but i believe it's being handled within existing budgets. L. Krog: Just to tie this down, because i think it is a very important project: the a ttorney General, then, can state categorically today that he is satisfied that the pro - gram will be continued in its present form through this budgetary year — yes or no? Hon. B. Penner: it's my expectation that the Victoria integrated c ourt pilot project will continue this year. [1520] L.

Krog: The reason i've spent some time on this is, frankly, because of what c hief Ducker has to say when he talks about how "a reduction in police calls is any - where from 30 to 50 percent because these people are being supported, because they have a better medium to make choices once they're released and, frankly, because they're getting some hope out there," etc. i think it is a very important project. i think it is the kind of innovative project that, quite candidly, the pub - lic expects. e ven the general public understands now the significant relationship between addiction and mental illness and an awful lot of petty and often non- violent crime, which is nevertheless extremely costly to society. it's costly in terms of insurance premiums for home - owners or people who can afford to carry insurance. it's extremely costly to the health system. it's costly to the judicial system. it's costly for ambulance transport. it's costly for a whole series of reasons. if we can deal with those people's addictions, then we free up money for all sorts of other things. h aving talked at some length, though, around the issue of mental illness, i want to spend a few moments talking about the b.c. r eview board.

The a ttorney General is well aware that on a pril 6 the board had a request from Mr. a llan Schoenborn, who without ques- tion killed his three children in a pril 2008 and found not criminally responsible by reason of mental illness. n ow, this has been a bit of a political football, to some extent. i have the a ttorney General's public statement. i have read it, and i appreciate his comments. but Mr.

Moore, a member of the c onservative government that has the jurisdiction, if you will, over the criminal c ode of c anada, has sort of tossed this back into the a ttorney General's lap. i want to ask some questions around the board itself. Who are the members of the current board, and when were they appointed? Hon. B. Penner: i have a confession to make here to members of the l egislature. u ntil about a month ago i didn't know a whole lot about the b.c. r eview board, hadn't heard much about it. it was one of the many boards, agencies and commissions that are established by the provincial government.

This one's fairly unique, though, because although it's appointed by the provincial government, it's established because of the federal criminal c ode, and the federal criminal c ode requires the province to appoint people to this body. i take it that each province has something similar. u nder the criminal c ode provisions the l ieutenant- Governor-in-c ouncil is responsible and must appoint at least five members to the review board, consisting of either a judge or a person qualified to be a judge who can act as chair — since 1997, i think, bernd Walter has been the chair of the b.c. r eview board, and he's got a legal background; at least one other member qualified to practise psychiatry; and other members typically with experience in mental health, medicine, psychology, so - cial work and criminology. c urrently in british c olumbia more than a dozen people are appointed to the review board.

Sorry, i don't have a full list of their credentials here or their biograph- ies, but their appointments come up every so often. it's true that this is a creature of the…. it's appointed by the province, the individual members, but the rules under which they operate are established by the fed - eral parliament through the criminal c ode of c anada. i think that was maybe something that wasn't entirely clear when public controversy or concern was first ex - pressed at just how this review board is established. i must say that they have a very difficult job to do.

They're presented with some pretty tough cases. i don't

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 12, 2011 6965 envy their task, but it is a job that they're appointed to do. [1525] The majority of the members are, in essence, ad hoc. They don't sit every day. i think they get paid a per diem for the days when they are required to sit. The review board chair, though, i take is a full-time position, but the majority of the other positions are, in essence, ad hoc. L.

Krog: i appreciate the a ttorney General became aware of the existence of the board. it's not something that has figured — how shall i say? — prominently in the public forum in the last few years. it certainly does now. People are very conscious of it, and people are very concerned about it.

The very fact that within a little over a year of being found guilty of first-degree murder but not criminally responsible for the death of his three children in dread - ful circumstances — circumstances that would move the hardest heart…. i think people want to know a little more about how this board operates. n ow, the a ttorney General has indicated that Mr. Walter is the chair and has been for 12 years. There are 12 people appointed. h e said they're reappointed from time to time.

Perhaps the minister could be more specific. h ow long are the appointments to this board? a re they for a six-month duration? a year? a nd if so, are they reviewed? a re the same people on it who have been on it for the last 12 years, like Mr. Walter as chair? h ow does this system work? Hon. B. Penner: The term of appointment for the chair expires at least every five years, so the maximum term of each appointment is five years for chair. f or other members that are appointed, it must be based on a merit-based process. t ypically, consultation would take place with the chair before those appointments are made.

Those terms can range from two to four years by way of individual appointment. L. Krog: Perhaps the a ttorney General can enlighten us. When was Mr. Walter last appointed? h ave there been any recent appointments to the review board, and if so, who are they? a nd in terms of determining the merit-based process, i really want the a ttorney General to be very specific about this. i understand the government has a process — just as, frankly, our government did in the '90s — in terms of appointments to agencies, boards and commissions.

Y ou look at resumés, etc. but at some point there is a per- son in the chain, and i would presume it would be Mr. Walter in this case, who actually makes the recommen - dations which then cabinet or the committee we used to call l egs and r egs actually passes, and passes on to cabinet for approval. h ow is it merit-based? is there a process? is there a panel? is it just Mr. Walter? i'm asking the a ttorney General to be a bit expansive in this, because it is a mat - ter of great concern to british c olumbians. [1530] Hon. B.

Penner: i'm not aware of any appointments in the immediate past, but given that the terms expire every two to four years, as i indicated earlier, i would imagine that the appointments come along on kind of a rolling basis. The requirements, as i indicated earlier, are established, first of all, in the criminal c ode.

Section 672 sets out some of the essential criteria. a s i indicated, the board chair has to be someone who would otherwise be qualified to be a judge. So you look at the same types of qualifications as someone would have to be a judge of a court.

Then there's a re - quirement that at least one of the other board members be qualified to practise psychiatry; then, also, that typ - ically other members have experience in mental health, medicine, psychology, social work and criminology. in practice i'm told that in b.c. quite a few people on the board have some background in psychiatry or sociology or some other type of related experience. The board chair would make some recommendations and suggestions to government. That would go through, i think, the board resourcing and development office.

That was, i think, the first acronym i referred to today, when i talked about brD o , otherwise known as the board resourcing and development office. They also make sure that there is sufficient exper - tise and qualifications for people to serve on this board. once appointed, the member will know, it operates es - sentially as a quasi-judicial body, so it operates with a fair degree of independence once it's been established. L. Krog: i take it, then, essentially, if i understand this correctly, that when Mr.

Walter has given you the stamp of approval, then you pass up through what i will call the more political process. in other words, you're moving into the area of where cabinet makes the oic appointment. is that correct? Hon. B. Penner: a s in the case of appointing Provincial c ourt judges or justices of the peace, ap - pointments to this quasi-judicial tribunal also requires the l ieutenant-Governor-in-c ouncil to make an order to make the appointment complete. i think that's been the case since the review board was first established, by my recollection, in 1992.

That's when the criminal c ode provisions were significantly overhauled following a Supreme c ourt of c anada de - cision where, interpreting and applying the c harter of r ights and f reedoms, previous provisions were struck down. That essentially let the l ieutenant-Governor-in- c ouncil — in practice, the cabinet of the day — have

british c olumbia Debates6966 t hursday, May 12, 2011 people detained indefinitely at their pleasure — "at the l ieutenant-Governor's pleasure," to quote the phrase — even sometimes for relatively minor offences. The Supreme c ourt of c anada took a look at that practice in a case called Regina v. Swain. They had a de- cision in, i think, 1991 striking down those provisions, and parliament responded in 1992 with the new provi - sions in 672 of the criminal c ode. That was the genesis of review boards across c anada.

So it would have been either in 1992 or 1993 that british c olumbia first estab- lished the review board. The current chair was appointed in 1997, i believe, by the previous government. L. Krog: i appreciate the lesson and the explanation the a ttorney General's given, which may assist people who are watching to understand how this works. but it doesn't get past the issue of the enormous public con - cern surrounding the decision of the board, particularly in Mr. Schoenborn's case.

There is also the decision to grant temporary passes to k imberly n oyes, who killed a 12-year-old autistic boy. in late a pril the public learned that a k itimat man who had killed his daughter in 2006 actually stabbed some - one in 2009 after the review board had granted him a temporary pass from the same c olony f arm psychiatric hospital. [1535] These are, and i use the term very directly, "notorious cases," cases where the public confidence in the justice system has been significantly shattered. So in the case of Mr.

Schoenborn, we have the review board on one hand saying it didn't know Darcie c larke's address, when in fact they had sent her a notice of the hearing for Mr. Schoenborn and asked her to provide a victim impact statement. i want to come back, in particular, to the decision taken by the board initially to allow the head of the in - stitution the right to give Mr. Schoenborn day passes, essentially. is the a ttorney General satisfied that in fact the review board acted properly in that first decision? Hon. B.

Penner: a s the member will know, for the a ttorney General to criticize a decision of a quasi- judicial body or court directly could result in some significant criticism from, well, people like himself. l ooking at the decision, though, i can certainly under- stand why the public had some concern, particularly since many people were left with the impression that Mr. Schoenborn had been released. in fact, the member put it correctly — and more carefully than maybe some media commentators did, who left the public with the impres - sion, intentionally or otherwise, that Mr.

Schoenborn had actually already been released from custody. My understanding is that Mr. Schoenborn continues to be detained, and the initial decision of the review board last month was, as the member indicated, ordering continued detainment of Mr. Schoenborn but allowing the head of the facility in which Mr. Schoenborn was being housed, c olony f arm — that individual who is in charge is a psychiatrist, by the way — to assess whether or not some limited form of escorted absence would be beneficial to Mr. Schoenborn's psychiatric recovery and if that could also be done without unduly jeopardizing public safety.

That, in essence, was the review board decision as i understand it. n evertheless, that certainly did cre - ate considerable concern, most importantly for Darcie c larke, the mother of the three children. i had an op - portunity to meet with her and her cousin a number of weeks ago.

They're faring as well as anyone could in those circumstances — probably better, actually, than i would have expected. but the discussion we had around the kitchen table was actually very instructive to me and helped inform and shape my views that a criminal c ode reform is in order here. i have written a formal letter to the federal Justice Minister, who currently is r ob n icholson, out- lining three specific criminal c ode amendments that i thought would be appropriate.

Since that time i've also articulated publicly a fourth suggestion, which is to do away with the automatic re - quirement to hold a review at least every 12 months. c urrently

section 672 of the criminal c ode requires the board to convene a hearing at least every 12 months regardless of what type of incident took place or the cur- rent state of the psychological health of the person in question.

My suggestion, which i've articulated, is that for those people who have committed the most horren - dous offences against other persons — such as murder, attempted murder, serious assaults or sexual assault — the requirement for an automatic review be changed to get the victims off this 12-month treadmill where they continually have to anticipate the stress and trauma of considering what might happen at the review board. [1540] in keeping with the Regina v.

Swain decision of the Supreme c ourt of c anada in 1991, and being mindful of what they said about the c harter of r ights and f reedoms, i think there is still room to change the criminal c ode without offending those c harter provisions.

We can have the discussion. i'm open to persuasion on this, but something in the order of perhaps every three or five years in terms of a review before the full panel for those people who have been found to have committed the most serious offences but were not criminally responsible because of a men - tal illness might be in order — or earlier, but only if the treating psychiatrist files a report with the review board noting that there's been a material improvement in the person's mental state. Then that would trigger the op - portunity to get before the review board earlier. i think

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 12, 2011 6967 that that is the kind of safeguard that the court was thinking about in Regina v. Swain in 1991. i understand that won't go far enough for some people, but we are bound by the constitution in c anada and the c harter of r ights and f reedoms. e ven so i think we can take some additional measures within those bound - aries to still give the public a greater sense of confidence and safety and to pay more respect to the concerns of victims.

The other three changes that i've specifically written to Minister n icholson about are changing the focus at the very beginning, from putting the emphasis on the least intrusive form of control on the subject, the per - son found to have committed the offence in question, to public safety. That would be analogous to the parole provisions currently under the Parole a ct, where public safety is the first consideration.

The second proposed change on my part had to do with — now my memory is starting to fail me, but i'm sure my staff will retrieve the letter i wrote — trying to make sure the agencies involved have to consider the lo- cation of victims when they're designing conditions that they're going to impose on a subject. We certainly heard that in this case.

That appears not to have been the top consideration — nor, per - haps, even a significant consideration. f rom talking to Darcie, i know that her concern, in my view…. i am not a psychiatrist, but having spent a couple of hours with her, my assessment is that she's extremely genuine in her personal concern for her own safety vis-à-vis Mr.

Schoenborn. a fter what happened, who can blame her? a n additional suggestion was also communicated to the federal Justice Minister, and i'm sure i'll remem - ber that momentarily. i was pleased that in the media the federal Justice Minister and the federal opposition Justice critic both expressed broad support, general sup- port, for the ideas that i was putting forward.

The commitment that i've made to Darcie and her cousin Stacy is that as soon as the new cabinet at the fed- eral level is constituted, as soon as those appointments are made and i know who the a ttorney General of c anada will be on an ongoing basis, i will endeavour to get a meeting with the federal a ttorney General immedi- ately to press the case for these changes to the criminal c ode to better protect the public and still live within the bounds of the c harter of r ights and f reedoms. L. Krog: o bviously, the c onservative MP for the area, Mr.

Moore, disagreed with the a ttorney General on the issue of whether changes were required to the criminal c ode. h e stated, as i understand it, that it was the mem- bership of the board that needed changing, which is entirely within the provincial government's purview. i would just like to hear the a ttorney General's comments on Mr. Moore's remarks and advice to the provincial government. Hon. B.

Penner: My memory has just been refreshed, and i've been provided a copy of my letter dated a pril 13, 2011, to the federal Minister of Justice and the a ttorney General for c anada, r ob n icholson. [1545] The three specific suggestions itemized in this letter are, as i indicated in my last answer, first, that the review board must give paramount consideration to public safety and second, that there must be at least two psychi- atric opinions on which the board's decision is based. a s the member noted correctly in his question, the review board had left it to the person in charge of the insti- tution — who is a psychiatrist, but it's just one person — to make the judgment call about whether Mr.

Schoenborn's mental state had stabilized sufficiently that he could be safely released — on a temporary and escorted basis, granted, but still be outside the walls of c olony f arm and in a community for a few hours under escort. That decision was delegated, in effect, to one individ - ual. That's a tremendous burden, i think, for any person to bear, so i thought an extra set of shoulders would be better. i'm not necessarily wedded to it being two psych- iatrists.

Perhaps it would be at least two, perhaps more than two, psychiatrists, who would have to agree that a person's mental state…. if they've already been found to have committed those kinds of horrendous offences — taking another person's life, for example, or more than one person's life — it would take more than one psychiatrist to say: "o kay, now we think the person is sufficiently stabilized that they can have some form of liberty." Then third, the review board must direct the hospital or governing agency in care of the individual to inquire as to the whereabouts of the victim or victims of the of - fence prior to making any determination as to whether absences should be granted. i appreciate, again, that public sentiment expressed by quite a few people following this incident is: "We don't care that the person was mentally ill, we don't care that there's a c harter of r ights and f reedoms in c anada, and we don't care that the Supreme c ourt of c anada says that you can't treat a mentally ill person the same, in terms of being held criminally responsible, as someone who is not mentally ill." i understand that gut reaction, because people are primarily concerned about preserv - ing safety. h owever, that is the reality. in terms of what people's views were of the review board, not everyone is a lawyer, so not everyone under - stands that those review boards are actually established because of the requirement in the federal criminal c ode. i have had a chance to talk to Mr.

Moore and explain to him what the mechanism is and what the history is, and i think that like many people he hadn't yet had the opportunity to learn about the history of the develop - ment of the review board, just like myself. u p until just

british c olumbia Debates6968 t hursday, May 12, 2011 over a month ago i wouldn't have been able to tell you that the review board was first established in the early 1990s and the legal underpinnings for it. i think the whole process and the issue that came to light a month ago, obviously based in unbelievably tragic circumstances and causing a lot of public angst, has actually served at least one positive purpose, and that's to put a spotlight on the current criminal c ode provisions. in looking at those, i think there is room for improve- ment. i look forward to working with the federal a ttorney General — if it is Mr. n icholson, or if it's somebody else — to see what we can do collectively to improve the criminal c ode.

L. Krog: Did the a ttorney General, after discov - ering the existence of this board and exactly what it does, consult with his counterparts across the country to see exactly how their appointment process works? if so, were there any improvements that could be made to the appointments process in british c olumbia, notwith- standing the terms of the criminal c ode of c anada? Hon. B.

Penner: i'm not sure if the member is suggesting that there's something wrong with our ap - pointment process or if there's something inadequate in the capacity of the people serving on the commission. i just caution him about that because it is a quasi-judicial body.

They operate with a fair degree of independ - ence, once appointed, from Members of this l egislative a ssembly. in terms of my suggested changes to the criminal c ode of c anada, i did copy all the other provincial and territorial justice ministers on my proposal and look for- ward to having a chance to speak with them at the next meeting of federal and provincial Ministers of a ttorney General to see what their thoughts are. [1550] i do know that prior to my becoming a ttorney General, there was some discussion at the last such meeting last fall.

Some concerns were expressed, i think specific - ally by the a ttorney General for Manitoba, where they had an incident with their review board or a case that caused some notoriety and public concern. There were some general comments, i believe, at that last federal- provincial-territorial meeting indicating, from the provinces' perspective anyway, that it might be time to look at these criminal c ode provisions. i'm not aware of any specific suggestions from other provinces being made in terms of individual sections or changes to

section 672 arising out of that meeting. if there are specific suggestions, i'd be very willing to look at and consider those. but at this point i don't believe so. What i was able to find was just a general statement to the effect that it's time to take another look at those provisions. i thought by making my suggestions more specific, i could help better frame the discussion and put some specific ideas before the federal minister for him to consider and perhaps bring forward to other Members of Parliament for their deliberation. L.

Krog: it was, i think, with great respect to the a ttorney General's response, a fairly straightforward, straight-up question. o bviously, the public looks at a decision like this, immediately has concerns about not just the law but the individuals, as well, and wants to be assured that all of the individuals who are appointed to positions like this are capable of doing them and that it is "not seen as a patronage position" or anything of that nature. i'm not suggesting it is.

Given the decision of the board, which seemed non - sensical to the general public in the circumstances, literally a year and a bit after Mr. Schoenborn was found guilty but not criminally responsible — yes, a year and a bit later; 14 months, roughly speaking — there's a deci - sion made by the board to give permission to the head of the institution to allow him escorted day passes, if you will. a gain, my question is very simply this: is the ap - pointments process to this board consistent across the country? Does the a ttorney General know?

Did the a ttorney General consult with any of his counterparts in the other provinces to determine how that appoint - ments process works? Hon. B.

Penner: The criteria are the same across the country under the criminal c ode, which establishes the test, as i've stated twice already. i can do so a third time if the member chooses to spend our time that way. n evertheless, no matter what kind of appointment process he had, there will be times when people aren't happy with the decision of a quasi-judicial body. n ow, the member has been trained as a lawyer, so i hope he'll appreciate that just because we don't necessarily like the decision of a judge, a court or a quasi-judicial body, it doesn't mean that elected people should rush to the plat- form and denounce the person that made the decision. i just want to caution the member. i do understand why the public was concerned about this, particularly in light of how some people thought they heard the news that Mr.

Schoenborn had already been released or ac - tually had been granted release when, in fact, that wasn't the case. it was quite conditional, as the member clearly articulated. n evertheless, i still think there are changes that are needed in the criminal c ode, and it's those provisions that govern how these boards conduct themselves. if the member is suggesting that the board members inappro - priately or incorrectly applied the provisions in

section 672 of the criminal c ode, i'd be interested to hear that. The provisions in the code have been there now for almost 20 years, and i think it's time for them to be re -

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 12, 2011 6969 visited along the lines that i've suggested. i'm open to additional suggestions as well. but i think the criminal c ode provisions that set out the criteria for appoint - ments to boards of this nature, plus our own rigorous screening process and credentials…. [1555] by the way, you're free to go on the internet and take a look at who these people are. it's public knowledge, the people that are serving on the board, including the board chair, who was appointed by an nDP government in 1997. if you're interested in who those people are, you're free to point your browser to Google and take a look at the composition of the b.c. r eview board and take a look at the background of the individuals that are appointed to the board.

L. Krog: a gain, i come back to what i think is a fairly straightforward question. The appointments process — does one apply? is the position publicly advertised? Does one get invited to apply

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0512pm-09
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0512pm 09
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d552ea73377536809f86bc74f264d00de64397ad

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