Alberta Hansard — 29 January 1998, Afternoon sitting (13:30) (Legislature 24, Session 2)

19980129

Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

January 29, 1998 Alberta Hansard 47 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Thursday, January 29, 1998 1:30 p.m. Date: 98/01/29 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers THE SPEAKER: Welcome. Let us pray. O Lord, we give thanks for the bounty of our province: our land, our resources, and our people. We pledge ourselves to act as good stewards on behalf of all Albertans. Amen. Please be seated. head: Notices of Motions THE SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, thank you. I rise to give notice of my motion of privilege against the Premier.

As is required by the Standing Orders, I sent you in writing official notice earlier today. My point of privilege refers to comments of the Premier in question period yesterday and shortly after question period outside the House in which he cast aspersions upon the character of constituents, community groups in my constituency, a certain religious faith. THE SPEAKER: Hon. leader, the purpose at this point is to give notice, and we'll deal with the motion later. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. MS CARLSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Pursuant to Standing Order 40 I will rise after ques tion period today and seek the unanimous consent of the Assembly to consider the following motion.

Be it resolved that this Legislative Assembly congratulate the nearly 100,000 Muslims in Alberta on the completion of Ramadan, the month of fasting. Y esterday was the end of Ramadan; today is Eid, the day of celebration. We would like to wish Eid Mobarik to everyone celebrating this joyous occasion. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glengarry. MR. BONNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Pursuant to Standing Order 40 in recognition of the fine Canadian athletes who are departing today for the Winter Olympics in Nagano, Japan: the urgency of this request is that these amazing athletes are departing today, and it is imperative that they have the support and best wishes from all members of the Assembly. By allowing the Assembly to speak to this issue today, we can give our athletes our heartfelt best wishes to take with them over to Nagano and support them in their competitions.

I ask all members of the Assembly to please support me in my request for unanimous consent to deal with this urgent matter. Thank you. head: Introduction of Bills Bill 2 Conflicts of Interest Amendment Act, 1998 MR. HAVELOCK: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce a bill being the Conflicts of Interest Amendment Act, 1998. [Leave granted; Bill 2 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Lougheed. Bill 5 Canadian Airlines Corporation Amendment Act, 1998 MS GRAHAM: Y es, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce Bill 5, the Canadian Airlines Corporation Amendment Act, 1998.

The intent of this bill is to remove the 10 percent ownership cap presently existing, which should encourage further equity owner- ship. [Leave granted; Bill 5 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Government House Leader. MR. HAVELOCK: Y es, Mr. Speaker. I request that Bill 5 be moved onto the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for West Y ellowhead. Bill 7 Rural Gas Amendment Act, 1998 MR. STRANG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce Bill 7, being the Rural Gas Amendment Act, 1998.

This bill proposes to consolidate regulations of both urban and rural gas utilities under Transportation and Utilities and to privatize Gas Alberta. [Leave granted; Bill 7 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Government House Leader. MR. HAVELOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move that Bill 7 be moved onto the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] Bill 8 Agriculture Statutes (Penalties) Amendment Act, 1998 MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon.

Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development I request leave to introduce Bill 8, being the Agriculture Statutes (Penalties) Amendment Act, 1998. The purpose of this bill is to es tablish new penalty levels for offences already identified in 10 pieces of agricultural legislation. [Leave granted; Bill 8 read a first time] Bill 9 Marketing of Agricultural Products Amendment Act, 1998 MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce Bill 9, being the Marketing of Agricultural Products Amendment Act, 1998.

48 Alberta Hansard January 29, 1998 The purpose of this bill is to clearly provide for the continuation of plans by means of re-enacting the plans. [Leave granted; Bill 9 read a first time] Bill 10 Regional Airports Authorities Amendment Act, 1998 MR. KLAPSTEIN: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce Bill 10, being the Regional Airports Authorities Amendment Act, 1998.

The bill proposes to accommodate the appointment of federal appointees to the boards of the airport authorities and facilitates the securing of long-term financing from the private sector. [Leave granted; Bill 10 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Government House Leader. MR. HAVELOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move that Bill 10 be moved onto the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] Bill 1 1 Alberta Sport, Recreation, Parks and Wildlife Foundation Amendment Act, 1998 MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill 1 1, being the Alberta Sport, Recreation, Parks and Wildlife Foundation Amendment Act, 1998. The purpose of the bill is to eliminate the requirement that a Member of the Legislative Assembly and a government employee be included in the membership of the board of the foundation. [Leave granted; Bill 1 1 read a first time] 1:40 Bill 203 Municipal Government (Environmentally Significant Areas) Amendment Act, 1998 MS KRYCZKA: Mr.

Speaker, I request leave to introduce Bill 203, being the Municipal Government (Environmentally Signifi- cant Areas) Amendment Act, 1998. [Leave granted; Bill 203 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Red Deer-South on behalf of the hon. Member for Calgary-Egmont. Bill 204 Workers' Compensation Amendment Act, 1998 MR. DOERKSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce a bill being the Workers' Compensation Amendment Act, 1998. [Leave granted; Bill 204 read a first time] Bill 205 Alberta Bill of Responsibilities MR. SHARIFF: Mr.

Speaker, I request leave to introduce Bill 205, being Alberta Bill of Responsibilities. [Leave granted; Bill 205 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Wetaskiwin-Camrose on behalf of the Member for Calgary-Fish Creek. Bill 206 Human Tissue Donation Procedures Statutes Amendment Act, 1998 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of the Member for Calgary-Fish Creek I am pleased to table Bill 206, Human Tissue Donation Procedures Statutes Amendment Act, 1998.

Bill 206 establishes the mechanisms and atmosphere which may increase the total number of organ donors in Alberta and subse- quently reduce the number of recipients on waiting lists for organ donation. [Leave granted; Bill 206 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Bill 207 Whistleblower Protection Act MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to beg leave to introduce my Bill 207, the Whistleblower Protection Act.

This bill will enshrine protection for whistle-blowers in provincial legislation and prevent action being taken against government employees who alert authorities to dangerous or illegal activities occurring in government. [Leave granted; Bill 207 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Fort McMurray. Bill 208 Government Accountability Amendment Act, 1998 MR. BOUTILIER: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I request leave this afternoon to introduce Bill 208, being the Government Accountability Amendment Act, 1998.

The purpose of this bill is to enhance the Government Account- ability Act. [Leave granted; Bill 208 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Norwood. Bill 209 Access Enforcement Act MS OLSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce Bill 209, the Access Enforcement Act. This act sets up an access enforcement co-ordinator to enforce access orders the way that maintenance enforcement enforces maintenance orders. [Leave granted; Bill 209 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora on behalf of the hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo.

January 29, 1998 Alberta Hansard 49 Bill 210 Protection of Personal Information in the Private Sector Act MR. SAPERS: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague the hon. Member from Calgary-Buffalo it is my pleasure to introduce Bill 210, the Protection of Personal Information in the Private Sector Act. This bill, once it becomes law, will control the manner in which a private body may collect personal information from individuals and will control the use that a private body may make of that information. [Leave granted; Bill 210 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora.

Bill 21 1 Legislative Assembly Amendment Act, 1998 MR. SAPERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure to introduce Bill 21 1, the Legislative Assembly Amendment Act, or what I call the returning democracy to Alberta act. This bill would guarantee two full sittings of the Legislature in each and every calendar year whether the Premier liked it or not. [Leave granted; Bill 21 1 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Cross. Bill 212 Amusements Amendment Act, 1998 MRS. FRITZ: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm pleased this afternoon to request leave to introduce Bill 212, being the Amusements Amendment Act, 1998. The purpose of this bill, Mr. Speaker, is to stop access by minors, which are persons under the age of 18, to adult videos containing sexually explicit material. [Leave granted; Bill 212 read a first time] Bill 213 School (Computer Instruction) Amendment Act, 1998 MRS. GORDON: I request leave to introduce Bill 213, being the School (Computer Instruction) Amendment Act, 1998.

The intent of this bill is to provide a basic level of computer literacy for Alberta's students and teachers thr ough specifically prescribed, standardized courses of study in computer technology. [Leave granted; Bill 213 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Bill 214 Post-Secondary Education Statutes Amendment Act, 1998 DR. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce a bill being Bill 214, the Post-Sec ondary Education Statutes Amendment Act, 1998, a bill that would cap tuitions at 20 percent. [Leave granted; Bill 214 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon.

Member for Redwater. Bill 215 Highway Traffic Amendment Act, 1998 MR. BRODA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce Bill 215, the Highway Traffic Amendment Act, 1998. Mr. Speaker, Bill 215 amends the Highway Traffic Act to allow photographs taken by an unmanned, red light enforcement device to stand alone as evidence in a court of law. Thank you. [Leave granted; Bill 215 read a first time] 1:50 head: Tabling Returns and Reports THE SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. MR. SAPERS: Here it comes. MR. KLEIN: There's lots of it too, Mr. Speaker. Believe me. We don't do things in a small way around here.

I would like to table four copies of grants allocated by constitu- ency under community facility enhancement programs 1, 2, and 3. These programs have distributed some $250 million since 1988 to assist with the construction, renovation, or redevelopment of community public-use facilities, including many fac ilities that were constructed for the benefit of children. MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table today, as is our practice, the report of selected payments to members and former members of the Legislative Assembly.

These expense accounts of MLAs include everything from indemnities and salaries to fees they received to benefits, including life insurance. These elements also cover the kilometre reimbursement for vehicles, vehicle rentals, airfare, accommodation, meals, taxis, parking: any of those particular items are all included here. This will, of course, be followed by even more itemized individual MLA accounts. It's fascinating reading, Mr. Speaker, especially the accounts of tens of thousands of dollars claimed for personal vehicle use and hotel accommodation by Liberals living in Edmonton. It's fascinating reading.

THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table for the benefit of children four copies of the international covenant on economic, social, and cultural rights, of which Canada is a proud signatory.

Article 7 ensures a minimum wage and working conditions. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. DR. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table four copies of the government agenda for opportunity back- grounder, Education Re-Investment to 2000/2001. head: Introduction of Guests MR. KLEIN: Mr. Speaker, it's with some sadness that I make this introduction today. I would like to introduce someone who really needs no introduction b ecause he has been sitting in the members' gallery for nearly nine years now. He's been with me since I was first elected mayor of the city of Calgary some 17

50 Alberta Hansard January 29, 1998 years ago. I would like to introduce a person really who has never been formally introduced in the Legislature: my executive director, Rod Love. He is here with his family: his wife, Charlene; his son, James; and his daughter, Katie. I would ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Leduc. MR. KLAPSTEIN: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to introduce to you and through you to the members of the Assembly grade 6 students from Willow Park school in Leduc along with t eachers Mr. Howard, Mrs. Sandy, and Mrs.

Burrell and helpers and parents Mrs. Jobs, Mrs. Glesman, Mrs. Polnik, and Mrs. Neiman. Please extend to them the warm welcome of the Assembly. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Cross. MRS. FRITZ: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On November 26 to 29 of this year Alberta will be hosting the international conference on human rights in celebration of the 50th anniversary of the United Nations universal declaration of human rights. The conference is to be held in Edmonton and is supported by the Canadian Human Rights Foundation. Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to introduce to you and through you in the gallery today from Montreal the chief executive officer of the foundation, Ruth Selwyn. With Ruth are three local organiz- ers of the conference: Professor Gerald Gall, Faculty of Law, University of Alberta; Robison Koilpillai, commissioner, Cana- dian Human Rights Commission; and Professor Patrick Bendin, Faculty of Law, University of Alberta. I would ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Little Bow. MR. McFARLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It's with a great deal of pleasure that I introduce to you and to members of the Assembly some parents and a son in the member's gallery who have come up from the Lethbridge area and the riding of Little Bow. Lloyd, Connie, and Ryan Mercer are active farmers and strong community supporters down there, and they're also friends of our Minister of Transportation and Utilities. I would ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: Oral Question Period Community Facility Enhancement Program MR. MITCHELL: Mr.

Speaker, community groups and churches in this province are forced to provide services and programs because the government has downloaded so much on them through their unplanned cuts. The only source of funds this government gives them is gambling revenue, and when they take it to pick up the pieces that the government's policies have created, the Premier calls them hypocrites. When will the Premier realize that he and his government have created not only gambling addicts in Alberta but also a social service and community infrastructure that is dependent upon their addiction? MR. KLEIN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the leader of the Liberal opposition is really reaching far and long. The community facility enhancement program has been in effect since 1988. As you saw through the tabling just a few short moments ago, some $250 million has gone into community facility programs. These are the kinds of things that were never funded by the government in the first place. They were never part of the government funding programs out of general revenues. These were community halls; these were playgrounds. These were the kinds of things that are nice to have in communities, that enhance the qua lity of life in communities.

It has nothing to do with restructuring government, with getting our finances in control. As I pointed out, this is a program that has been in place since 1988. And do you know what, Mr. Speaker? I haven't heard any complaints from any of the community organizations that have received f unding through community facility enhancement programs 1, 2, and 3. They have been very, very grateful for this particular program. MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, doesn't the Premier understand that between 1988 and 1993 – he's right; community groups received CFEP f unding, but there were no VLTs required to support it.

So why do they have to have them now? MR. KLEIN: Mr. Speaker, the introduction of VLTs no doubt enhanced the amount of money that we were able to reallocate back into the communities. But it goes to the point that I made yesterday, and the point is this. Is the leader of the Liberal opposition willing to go into his constituency and have a good chat with the people who received community facility enhancement program funding – applied of their own free will for this money – and tell them: “Really, this is bad money; it's gambling money. Y ou ought not to have taken it”? Will he do that? Will he do it? 2:00 MR.

MITCHELL: Since the Premier, Mr. Speaker, is ca lling religious groups and others who apply for gaming and lottery revenues hypocrites, although that's the only money that is available to them, what label does he put on his own government when it balances the budget on the backs of the poor, the desper- ate, and the addicted? MR. KLEIN: Mr. Speaker, I never called anyone a hypocrite. I said that there is a question of hypocrisy. [interjections] Well, check the media tapes on this. I said: there is a question of hypocrisy. The question of hypocrisy refers to the leader of the Liberal opposition.

I know that it is unparliamentary to call the hon. leader a hypocrite. I'm not. But I can say that there is a question here of hypocrisy, because he talks about harm to children. He talks about harm to children, and I quote from the Hansard of yesterday. He said, “Government shackled our communities, many of our families, and many of our children with the burden of video slot machines.” Mr.

Speaker, the only point I was trying to make is that in the member's own constituency under community facility enhance- ment program number 3 there was something like $445,621 allocated for community enhancement, including playgrounds for children. Playgrounds for children. Now, is this what he's talking about when he's talking about hurting children? Building playgrounds for children: is this what he's talking about? Maybe he would like to provide that answer. THE SPEAKER: Second main question. The Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. MITCHELL: If they had a choice, they wouldn't take gambling revenues, Mr.

Speaker. Only in Alberta does a Premier

January 29, 1998 Alberta Hansard 51 use his bully pulpit to attack people and groups who are unable to defend themselves. The Premier's attack on community groups and on people of a religious faith reeks of a cowardice seen only when moral courage is absent. [interjections] Speaker's Ruling Inflammatory Language THE SPEAKER: Wow, and it's only Thursday. Day two. Look. I don't think that hon. members bring any h onour to themselves in this Assembly whatsoever with the usage of certain words.

Now, there are a couple of points of order that have been raised, and normally we would wait until the end of the question period to deal with them. However, you know, the rules that we use in terms of expressions are clearly identified, and sometimes there is a contradiction in terms of the rules. There is one

section of Beauchesne which says you can call someone a hypocrite, and there's another

section of Beauchesne which says you cannot call someone a hypocrite. But words like “hypocrite” and “bullying” and “coward” do not bring any honour to anybody in this Assembly. I want to encourage all members to understand that this is a place of great honour to come to. This is a great pl ace for debate. Members can freely express their opinions both ways, and members might want to clearly listen to the expressions of those members both ways. So, please, there are a lot of people in Alberta. Three million. Maybe not many really watch what we do, but it is a great honour to be here.

Second question, Leader of the Official Opposition, of your second set. VLT Plebiscites MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. People in communi- ties across Alberta including the Premier's hometown of Calgary are asking that a provincewide plebiscite be held. Mr. Speaker, why won't the Premier just sidestep the issue of whether or not he wants to make the decision and hold a provincewide plebiscite so that Albertans can make the decision for him? MR. KLEIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, again I go back to the report of the Lotteries Review Committee.

I go back to the initial meeting that resulted in the public consultation taking place. That was the meeting I had in Bonnyville with the mayors and reeves of a number of municipalities who quite clearly said first of all that they wanted a greater share of revenues from lotteries. That has been done with the creation of community lottery boards and an additional $50 million. Sec ondly, they said that they wanted to make the decision. They wanted to make the decision. As a result of some 22 public meetings – and again the leader of the Liberal opposition said there was no public consultation.

There were 22 public meetings in 14 locations across the prov- ince. Over 2,200 Albertans attended these meetings. The committee heard a total of 462 oral presentations and r eceived over 8,500 written responses in the form of letters, discussion papers, and petitions. After all was said and done relative to the Gordon report, the recommendation, based on community consultation and the wishes of community leaders, was brought forth that the matter of VLTs be a matter of community, that the communities be allowed to deal with these matters on the basis of individual community standards. MR. MITCHELL: Mr.

Speaker, why won't the Premier simply admit that he has dumped the plebiscite issue on underfunded communities who can only do it in a piecemeal way so that he can delay and obstruct and undermine the ability of Albertans to make a clear-cut decision on this issue? MR. KLEIN: Mr. Speaker, holding a plebiscite, particularly in conjunction with a municipal election, ought not to be a huge problem. I know that when I was a municipal legislator, we had plebiscites on a number of issues. MRS. BLACK: Fluoridation. MR. KLEIN: Fluoridation is one that came back year after year after year. Mr.

Speaker, if you go back in history, local municipalities used to have plebiscites on liquor, on mixed drinking in their own municipalities. There were situations in this province where in the city of Calgary, for instance, men and women could not drink together. Therefore, they went to the communities of Forest Lawn or the communities of Bowness or to the town of Airdrie, where they voted on a town-by-town or city-by-city basis. All the municipal leaders are saying to us: we want to be able to deter- mine on the basis of community standards whether VLTs should stay in or go out.

THE SPEAKER: I'm sorry, hon. leader; I count that you've already had three questions. Third official opposition main question. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Day Care Subsidies MRS. SLOAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Dozens of individuals and organizations have written letters to the Minister of Family and Social Services outlining their concerns in relation to the elimination of the day care operating allowance.

The throne speech this week, while emphasizing that “children will come first in the house we call Alberta,” offers no real commitment or funding to address the fundamental service of children and families. To the Minister of Family and Social Services: how do you respond to the dozens of individuals and organizations who say that your cuts will lead to more families opting for private, unregulated, and substandard child care? DR. OBERG: Mr. Speaker, the way I respond is with the facts. This year we are taking $10 million from the operating allowance and putting it into the child care subsidy program.

So to put that in perspective, we are taking $10 million out of the operating allowance which pays for people that are earning $100,000, $200,000, $300,000 for day care, and we're putting it into the hands of the lower class, of the lower income earning people. These are the same people that yesterday were talking and complaining about child poverty and us not doing enough about it. 2:10 MRS. SLOAN: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister perhaps share with this Assembly what measures and research he has done of the “lower class” – his words – to determine the impact the elimina- tion of the operating allowance will have on the operators and the recipients of that service? DR. OBERG: I find it quite repulsive when you talk about “lower class.” [interjections] I made a slip of the tongue. I made a slip

52 Alberta Hansard January 29, 1998 of the tongue. What I was referring to was lower income. I would love to answer the question. As a matter of fact, in a recent

article in the Edmonton Journal that the hon. member was quoted in, there were three day cares mentioned. Mr. Speaker, when these changes are taken into full effect, which is not until August of 1999, Edmonton Northwest Day Care will actually receive $17 more per child. The current fees are $480. The South Edmonton Child Care Centre, which was another one there, does see – I confess – a $9 loss per child. The current fees are $495, which is higher than the $480.

The Canada Pl ace Child Care Centre, which has 681 nonsubsidized children – these are children that come from parents of families that earn over $60,000 a year. So anyone in this Assembly – anyone in this Assembly – could qualify for the child care subsidy. The expected change in funding in August of 1999 is $72 per child. The current fees are $554. MRS. SLOAN: Wouldn't the minister agree that the real objective of these reforms, singular and inclusive, is just to put women back where he thinks they belong? DR. OBERG: Mr. Speaker, I find that type of attitude absolutely, inadvertently repulsive.

I absolu tely find it repulsive that this person would say that. I will not dignify that comment with an answer. Private Hospitals MS BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health's announce- ment yesterday about private health facilities is, in my opinion, a wolf in a sheep's clothing. What this announcement does is set up an approval process for private, for-profit hospitals without any prior public consultation.

So it appears that what the HRG group wanted to accomplish from the College of Physicians and Surgeons in December but failed is now being facilitated by the Minister of Health in the bill that he plans to push through the Assembly in February.

I'd like to know how the Minister of Health can justify pushing through legislation like this without having conducted the wide range of hearings, the wide range of consultations recommended by the College of Physicians and Surgeons at that December 5 meeting, where they even cited that pressure because of closure of hospital beds in the public system was going to enhance the desire for a private, for-profit hospital system. MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, I am somewhat surprised by the hon. leader's question in that during previous question periods at previous sessions I felt she was very anxious to make sure there would be such additional legislation and controls in place, despite the fact that in answer to a number of questions at that time, I indicated that the government fully supports and desires to follow the principles of the Canada Health Act and that we do not want to do anything that would jeopardize or diminish the effectiveness of our public health care system.

This legislation is designed to make clear and to provide the clear and complete legislative authority to manage any issue that might come up in that respect. Therefore, I would think that this would be acceptable to the hon. member. MS BARRETT: Well, if the minister was serious about this, Mr. Speaker, he'd introduce the legi slation specifically prohibiting private, for-profit hospitals. He would, if he was serious.

Given that HRG group says, anyway, that it's invested up to $10 million in its private hospital in Calgary, will the minister let the Assembly and the people of Alberta know if he or any of his officials have met with any HRG officials or their representatives since that December 5, 1997, meeting with the College of Physicians and Surgeons? MR. JONSON: I have not met, Mr. Speaker. I would check to see if there's been any discussion back and forth since then, but I am not aware of that. MS BARRETT: Fine. I'll wait for the answer. Mr.

Speaker, can the minister explain something I just don't understand about this new policy and this legislation? Under current legislation in-patient procedures are only allowed to take place in public hospitals under the direct control of regional health authorities, but under his new proposal it would just be the minister's. Can he explain why it would be the minister's decision and not the RHA's? MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, I think that if the hon. member was to check the legislation, she would find that the matter of approv- ing hospitals or using the term “hospital” is something under the minister's jurisdiction. I think, however, that although our policy position and our actions have been very consistent in terms of following the Canada Health Act, supporting the public health care system, doing nothing to be detrimental to the public health care system with respect to this issue, we want to make sure in the legislation that we have a very clear set of clauses with respect to this particular issue.

I would think the hon. member would be very anxious to actually wait a very short period of time, I think, and we will debate the bill. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Innisfail-Sylvan Lake, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Creek. Farm Vehicle Safety MR. SEVERTSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am continually receiving calls and concerns with respect to the government implementing a regulation requiring that all farm vehicles over 24,000 kilograms in gross weight will require commercial plates. My question is to the Minister of Transportation and Utilities.

Is this minister or his department planning to implement such regulations? MR. PASZKOWSKI: Thank you to the hon. Member for Innisfail-Sylvan Lake. This is part of the regulatory review process that we conduct periodically on every regulation that we have in government, anywhere from three to five years depending on the regulation. The regulation that's being reviewed is the whole aspect of truck safety on our highways. In this particular case we've asked for comments because of the review process for trucks, as the member has correctly pointed out, over 24,000 kilograms. This is strictly a safety issue.

It has nothing to do with commercial plating. It has nothing to do with farm fuel rebate. It is strictly: should farm trucks be subject to the annual inspection which commercial trucks are subject to? Nothing more, nothing less. We've asked for input from the agricultural communities. We've contacted all of the municipalities in the province for their input, and at this stage we're very interested in hearing from the agricultural community as to what they would like to see as far as safety with farm trucks over 24,000 kilograms.

January 29, 1998 Alberta Hansard 53 MR. SEVERTSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister. I've had positive comments with respect to the safety regulations from the constituents that I have spoken with. Can the minister advise if he or his department are receiving many responses from Albertans? MR. PASZKOWSKI: Y es, Mr. Speaker, we have. We've had fairly good input from the agricultural community. Something like 85 written letters to date, over 500 phone calls, as a matter of fact, have responded on this particular issue.

Unfortunately, part of the issue was clouded in that there seemed to be a representation that made it appear that the whole issue of commer- cial plating was up for discussion here. That was never the case. This was strictly a safety issue on farm trucks, and nothing more is being addressed at this time. 2:20 MR. SEVERTSON: My final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same minister: is there still time for my cons tituents and all Albertans to respond to this review? MR.

P ASZKOWSKI: Y es, there is, but time is running out because this is a process that the regulatory review committee wanted to deal with last fall. That date has been extended to February 2 of this year, so there is time. The clock is ticking, and we'd certainly ask that anyone that may have any ideas or views on this issue consult with us immediately. Our next step, after we have received all of the input from the various agricultural communities, will be to go back to these same agricultural organizations and indicate what it is that we have heard.

It's our plan to further consult with the agricultural community before any final decision is made on this issue. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Creek, followed by the hon. Member for Livingstone-Macleod. Provincial Tax Regime MR. ZWOZDESKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On March 8, 1997, the Premier promised Albertans that he would pass legislation to prevent increases in personal income taxes unless a referendum is held. On November 20, at the Toronto Board of Trade last year, the Premier went further and said: we will not raise taxes. And neither would we.

I'm tabling a copy of a November 1997 Standard and Poor's report, which states that the Alberta government “has not ruled out enacting revenue measures should they prove necessary to meet debt-reduction goals.” I'd like the Treasurer, in the Premier' s absence, to tell us why the Premier is telling Main Street Albertans no tax increases while the Treasurer is telling Wall Street financiers that he won't rule out possible tax hikes? MR. DA Y: Y ou know, this is really getting ridiculous, Mr. Speaker.

It's been very clear that the Premier, among Premiers in this country, has been a leader in terms of saying: taxes only go one way in this province, and that's down. We happen to agree one hundred percent with that. MR. ZWOZDESKY: That being the case, perhaps you could clarify for us and define what you mean by revenue measures, and why it is that you won't prevent the possibility of tax hikes? MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, I won't pretend to know why Standard and Poor's writes a particular comment, which is not a comment I ever gave. But I'll tell you what.

I sure do like it when they write that we've got the best ratings in the whole nation. MR. ZWOZDESKY: Mr. Treasurer, if you're truly committed to taxpayer protection, why does your regulatory plan contemplate no amendments to the Taxpayer Protection Act for three years, and why did you kill the No Tax Increase Act last year? MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, the record is clear when you check back the four years. First of all, on sales tax, the only party that has raised the possibility of looking at sales tax is the Liberals. That's a matter of record. Mr.

Speaker, I'll go on to say that our Premier and this government have been very, very clear about taxes and taxation. We are involved in an exciting process now. Alberta again has led the negotiations with the federal government in terms of saying, “We want more autonomy; we want more and more of the ability to adjust rates and brackets to meet the particular needs of Albertans.” We've also said that we're reviewing our tax regime for small business and corporate tax. There's a little joke that's circulating around on the street.

I'm not referring to the Leader of the Opposition; I'm referring to an actual joke, Mr. Speaker. It asks: what do Liberal popularity rates and taxes in Alberta have in common? They're both going down. THE SPEAKER: Stick to the day job. The joke bombed. The hon. Member for Livingstone-Macleod, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Career and Technology Studies MR. COUTTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Several years ago the government introduced the career and technology studies program, which gives students real skills that help them get jobs after high school.

This is an excellent program, and I'm very supportive of it. It allows schools to offer technical courses from welding and automotives to marketing, forestry, and cosmetology. However, the parent council and many concerned parents from the Willow Creek high school in my constituency have serious concerns about the funding provided for that CTS course. These courses have higher costs and require more equipment and more expensive facilities than many academic classes. My question today is to the Minister of Education.

What kind of funding does the govern- ment provide for schools that offer this special CTS program? MR. MAR: Mr. Speaker, in going throughout the province we can say that there is a fair degree of support for the career and technology studies program, that it does give our students good skills and opportunities to prepare them for life after high school. There are 22 different areas of study and over 600 different course modules. CTS is funded by the provincial government in three ways.

First of all, CTS equipment comes out of our capital budget; secondly, the basic instruction grant will cover the instruction and material costs; and third, technology integration grants can also be used. Mr. Speaker, our CTS equipment guidelines are based on equipment purchases that are actually made by school boards over the last five years. These guidelines are used when a CTS capital project is approved. So, for example, if a commercial food CTS program is approved for a school, we'll provide them with $200,000 for the equipment.

Since 1993 nearly $20 million has been given to school jurisdictions for those equipment purchases.

54 Alberta Hansard January 29, 1998 MR. COUTTS: To the same minister, my first supplemental: why does the government fund students equally but not equitably and in a way that reflects the cost of the program each student takes? MR. MAR: Well, Mr. Speaker, I've considered this notion of funding students based on the programs that they take, but I've come to the conclusion that that program would be too cumber- some to administer. It would also diminish the flexibility of local school boards to recognize their own list of priorities. Clearly, Mr.

Speaker, some CTS modules, like mechanics, are going to be much more costly than, for example, running a CTS module on marketing. Sc hool boards must decide where to allocate their dollars, and it's the school boards' responsibility. I think that they for the most part exercise their jurisdiction well, but the school boards must act prudently and balance some of the high-cost programs with some of the lower cost programs in providing CTS to their students. MR.

COUTTS: Can the minister assure the parent council of Willow Creek high school that a portion of the government's $540 million reinvestment in education will be used to help the schools purchase additional CTS equipment? MR. MAR: I can give that assurance, Mr. Speaker. CTS equipment is part of the capital expenditure of my department, and details of our capital expenditure plans will be available following the provincial budget being delivered. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods, followed by the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills. Education Funding DR. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Y esterday an excerpt from the Calgary home and school association's press release, after their analysis of the government's education reinvestment announcement, stated: When around 65% of the announced funding for education is not what it is projected to be, it sets up a scenario of smoke and mirrors and brings troubling questions to the integrity of this education budget. My question is to the Minister of Education. Is the Calgary home and school association correct in their calculation that two-thirds of the announced reinvestment is putting money back in that had been previously cut and is not new money? MR.

MAR: Mr. Speaker, I've said on a number of occasions in response to this type of criticism that regrettably and sadly there are some people who will never acknowledge that there's enough money to be spent in education. The fact is that if we're spending roughly $3 billion this year and we're going to be spending $3.4 billion by the year 2000 for that school year. That's new money. It doesn't matter how you slice it; that's $380 million we weren't spending before.

On top of that, there's $60 million that's been allocated from the early pay-down of debentures that came from interest savings that is also being directed to the classroom. On top of that, there is an additional $100 million that the Provincial Treasurer announced with respect to capital for onetime funding in this year.

So for those people who level the criticism that there is not new money, that is not correct. 2:30 I can identify the areas that the money is going into, and I can say that throughout the province the Alberta School Boards Association has endorsed the areas that we're targeting our reinvestment in. We've received letters of thanks and press releases that have come from the Edmonton public school board. It's come from the Calgary Catholic school board. It's come from the Public School Boards' Association.

It's come from other stakeholder groups, and people have said: “We're glad that you've recognized that these particular areas like English as a Second Language for Canadian-born students, that the early literacy reading program is an outstanding one, that you've recognized that the cost of special-needs students are higher,” and accordingly we've increased the per capita grants by 30 percent in that particular area. We've recognized that there's going to be growth in this province. We've allocated $171 million to recognizing that there are going to be additional students in this province. Mr.

Speaker, anybody who suggests that this is not new money is not doing their homework very well. DR. MASSEY: Thank you. I'm sure the Calgary home and school association will appreciate that. My second question. The minister has referred to his alloca- tion, his $380 million. Is the $40 million in this announcement for children with mild and mode rate disabilities included in the total for basic instruction or in the total for special-needs children, or is it in both? Where would we find that $40 million? MR. MAR: Mr.

Speaker, I think the hon. member has asked a reasonably good question here which I'm happy to clarify. He's referring to the document that he tabled earlier today entitled Education Re-Investment to 2000/2001. Included within the $93 million reinvestment is an increase for the basic instruction grants. Also $86 million is identified for reinvestment in the area of special needs. The money that he's referring to, the $75 per student for mild and moderate grants, is included in the $86 million for special needs.

We did want to break down the amount of money that's identified under the $93 million for basic instruction grant rates, but he is correct that they ought not be double counted but that they s hould be c ounted under the one heading of special needs, the $86 million total. DR. MASSEY: Thank you. Then, Mr. Minister, will you put out a correction that the reinvestment is actually $340 million, not $380 million? MR. MAR: Mr. Speaker, it would not be correct to say that there's been double counting in terms of the total. The total is correct.

The total amount that has been increased, that has been directed toward schools is roughly $440 million, of which $380 million is new money, $60 million of which comes from a reallocation from interest savings. But the totals are correct. Although they are listed in both areas, the total at the bottom of this document is correct. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Norwood. Multiple Sclerosis Treatment MR. MARZ: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question today is to the Minister of Health.

Multiple sclerosis is a disease that affects an estimated 50,000 Canadians. The disease attacks the myelin covering of the central nervous system causing inflammation and often destroying the myelin in patches. This process interrupts

January 29, 1998 Alberta Hansard 55 and distorts the natural flow of nerve impulses, resulting in vision problems, numbness, loss of balance, extreme fatigue, tremors, and even paralysis. I have some constituents that are affected by this, and they have informed me that there are treatments available for MS but they are quite expensive, and some of the better ones that are more effective are not covered by the Blue Cross drug plan. One such drug, Betaseron, costs $17,000 per year, while Copaxone costs $13,000 a year. This cost is prohibitive for most people, especially seniors.

Can the minister please answer why drugs like Betaseron are not on the government-sponsored Blue Cross drug plan list? MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, we certainly acknowledge that there are new pharmaceutical products coming on the market, and we do approve a number of products each year. We also, as they become replaceable, drop products from the list that is covered. In the case of these judgments, Mr. Speaker, I rely very heavily upon the expert committee that is established under Alberta Health, which has representation, of course, from physicians and pharmacists and experts in this overall area.

During their last review of this particular drug, the evidence that they had to consider would indicate that the effectiveness, the advisability of supporting and funding this particular pharm aceutical was not supported by the research and evidence they had to date. They relied quite heavily in that a ssessment on a very respectable, reputable agency, the Canadian Co-ordinating Office for Health Technology Assessment, which is not supportive of this particular drug's effectiveness. MR. MARZ: Can the minister tell me when Betaseron will be approved in Alberta? MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, we do make our assessments and decisions about approval or nonapproval of drugs biannually. The next round of approvals will be decided upon, I believe, the end of February, and I expect to be able to notify doctors, medical facilities, and pharmacists of any changes in the supported drug list by the end of March. MR. MARZ: Could the minister tell me: are there any other provinces currently funding this drug in Canada? MR. JONSON: Y es, Mr. Speaker. British Columbia, Saskatche- wan, Quebec, and Ontario provide this drug on a restricted or special authorization format that they have.

Manitoba does not support it, but they have entered into a research project just recently on the effectiveness of Betaseron. So there is no province that I am aware of that provides complete coverage under a plan such as Blue Cross, but there is some limited authorization in the provinces that I've mentioned. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Norwood, followed by the hon. Member for Fort McMurray. Child Prostitution MS OLSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last year the Assembly amended the Child Welfare Act to say that a child involved in prostitution is a victim of sexual abuse.

The government indicated that one of its purposes for this change was to allow police to charge pimps and the johns who prey on the children under the Child Welfare Act. Y esterday we heard that this has never been done. To the Minister of Justice: if a john or a pimp is convicted of an offence under

section 95 of the Child Welfare Act, what would appear on that predator's criminal record? MR. HAVELOCK: Well, Mr. Speaker, yesterday I simply gave the response that I would have to find out whether or not anyone had been charged under the provisions of the Child Welfare Act. In fact, the hon. member had asked this question sometime last year, and I believe the Minister of Family and Social Services responded that the answer was none. I am able to confirm that. I'd prefer to have the Minister of Family and Social Services answer that question. However, what I'd like to indicate at this stage, Mr.

Speaker, is that the hon. member and the party of which she is a member espouse a philosophy of wishing to help those in need. Bill 1 is intended to do just that, yet she's raised publicly concerns about the constitutionality of the bill. We've examined it and feel it is constitutional. If she really wants to help us address this issue and if her party wants to help us address this issue, then why doesn't she offer some support, as opposed to continuing to criticize Bill 1, which is good legislation and we need it? 2:40 MS OLSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are talking about amendments to the Child Welfare Act from last session, and I could tell the minister that nothing will appear about the convic- tion on his criminal record. Can the minister answer this: if a man is sexually abusing his stepdaughter, would the minister have his prosecutors prosecute that man under the Criminal Code or under the Child Welfare Act? MR. HAVELOCK: Mr. Speaker, that of course depends on the circumstances of the case. I can't answer a hypothetical question of that nature. It's impossible. MS OLSEN: My third question is to the Minister of Justice again.

Can the minister answer this: if a pimp or a john is charged under the Child Welfare Act, would he have his fingerprints taken? MR. HAVELOCK: Mr. Speaker, I w ill have to get back to the hon. member on that issue, but I don't believe that fingerprints would be taken under the Child Welfare Act. DR. OBERG: Mr. Speaker, I would love to supplement that answer as the minister responsible for the Child Welfare Act. What we are trying to do under Bill 1, looking at juvenile prostitution, is we are trying to take a tremendous scourge on society and eliminate it. Mr.

Speaker, if I can, I'd just love to quote what the Alberta Association of Chiefs of Police said. On behalf of the Alberta Association of Chiefs of Police, I would like to commend the Government of Alberta for their initiative in addressing the serious and disturbing exploitation of children and young people through juvenile prostitution. Mr. Speaker, I beg the opposition to talk to the people on the street. Go out and talk to some of these people, and you will get unanimous support for this bill. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Fort McMurray, followed by the hon. Member for Spruce Grove-Sturgeon-St. Albert.

56 Alberta Hansard January 29, 1998 Mental Health Services MR. BOUTILIER: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question this afternoon is to the Minister of Health. There have been concerns brought to my attention by citizens that we don't have enough dollars to deliver adequate programs in the mental health system due to the tremendous growth pressures in northern communities. My question to the minister is: what is being done to help in facing these many growth pressures that we're experi- encing? MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member certainly raises a priority area as far as the government and Alberta Health are concerned. He may have noted that in the recent announcement of funding for health authorities, both provincial and regional, mental health is receiving, I believe it is, a 6.3 percent increase in funding. Within that funding we will be able to continue our emphasis on increasing the amount and the proportion of funding for community services.

Across the province we'll be making an effort to certainly provide additional community-based mental health care services, and of course we recognize the pressures that areas such as the hon. member's constituency are under. So very definitely, yes, there is an increased emphasis, within resources, on mental health and community mental health. MR. BOUTILIER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister. Obviously, it's been noted that we don't want to throw money at particular programs just for the sake of throwing money.

What specifically is being done to help, pertaining to community- based mental health programs, in northern communities? MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of components, and I will not endeavour to cover them all, but specifically I think an excellent example is that our mental health system now in Alberta has the capacity to provide telepsychiatry, which is of significant benefit, particularly to northern communities, to rural locations in the province. Th is is just one of a number of initiatives.

We have the whole concept of clubhouse, which is a byword for providing a support mechanism, a gathering place for people, particularly in urban centres, to socialize, to have friends and support, and to have supportive treatment and care. Mr. Speaker, I think it is also important to indicate that the proportion of our overall mental health budget in this province has shifted from community care, which was about 26 percent of mental health care funding in 1994-95, to about 36 percent of our budget today. So I think we're headed in a significant direction towards community care. MR.

BOUTILIER: My final supplemental to the Minister of Health is: what is being done in transferring the responsibility that the minister speaks of for community-based services to the RHAs, and is this really going to work? MR. JONSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, certainly the overall direction that we have – and we will begin as early as possible in this year – is to move the provincial mental health clinic operations to the regional health authorities. I think that in the hon. member's question there was a very important phrase. He is questioning: will it work?

Y es, I think it will work, but I think we have to move at it methodically, step-by-step. We have to be respective of the staff situation in term s of their contracts and what's involved in any type of transfer. The regional health authority has to be co-operated with, worked with, and this will have to be phased in. But, yes, I hope to be able to say that we have the first transfers in place quite early in this year. THE SPEAKER: The time for question period has now eroded. The hon. Minister of Health has requested approval to supplement an answer. Private Hospitals (continued) MR. JONSON: Y es, Mr. Speaker.

This is further to my answers to the leader of the ND opposition, and that is that I am advised that none of my senior officials have had any meetings with HRG, the Health Resource Group, since September. I have not either, and I just wanted to add that for the member's benefit. head: Members' Statements THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort, followed by the hon. Member for Spruce Grove-Sturgeon-St. Albert, followed by the hon. Member for Livingstone-Macleod. Lunar New Y ear Celebrations MR. CAO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Y esterday several of our members spoke on the subject of the lunar year.

To our aware- ness there are many cultures in the world celebrating festivities following the lunar calendars, such as the Ramadan lunar New Y ear. The Assembly generously and unanimously moved and passed a motion to recognize the lunar New Y ear celebration. The last few days and nights I've had the pleasure of attending several functions in Edmonton celebrating the lunar New Y ear by Chinese and Vietnamese groups. It is called Sun Lin in Cantonese or Xin Nian in Mandarin Chinese or Tet in Vietnamese. The New Y ear celebration is a family event.

However, there are celebration ceremonies at clubhouses, Buddhist temples, Christian churches. In a particular one, organized by the Viet- Canadian association of Edmonton, the ceremony was held at the Shaw Conference Centre in Edmonton and was attended by close to a thousand people with officials from federal, provincial, and municipal governments. The organizers expressed their apprecia- tion to the government of Alberta for its global view of diverse cultures and its assistance. Mr.

Speaker, I believe this type of cultural event helps to reduce social misbehaviours and enrich Albertan culture by adding thousands of years of tradition to our young province. Alberta now can be proud that we have a cultural depth and breadth dating back thousands of years. I would like to take this opportunity to ask the hon. Member for Calgary-Nose Creek and the hon. Member for Calgary-Montrose to join me on this occasion, asking for your kindness, Mr. Speaker, to pass on our lucky money, Li Xi, to every member in the House, every person in the House. I need the page to help me.

Thank you. 2:50 THE SPEAKER: Hon. member, that would be permitted on the basis that this would be provided to all members of the Assembly. MR. CAO: Y es, sir. THE SPEAKER: Fine. The hon. Member for Spruce Grove-Sturgeon-St. Albert.

January 29, 1998 Alberta Hansard 57 Regional Health Authority Boundaries MRS. SOETAERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Many times in this Legislature I have stood and expressed my concerns about health boundaries that were defined by political whim and how they have become brick walls. There are fears in my constituency and around this province about access to health care. Articles in the paper state that different RHAs throughout this province are so cash-strapped that they do not have enough beds or funds to meet the needs of people within their own region, let alone people from other regions.

Do you have any idea what it is like to live five miles outside the Capital region and read the headline in Mon- day's Journal that says, “Out-of-region patients face long-term care restrictions”? Do you know what it is like to be an elderly couple living in fear that one of you will be placed in a fac ility hundreds of miles away? The area just northwest of Edmonton asked to be in the Capital region, and the Minister of Health said no. So much for local autonomy. I'm tired of hearing slogans such as healthy Albertans living in a healthy Alberta.

I'm tired of task forces and reviews which do nothing while the waiting lists grow, and finally I am very saddened that constituents are unable to access needed health services in facilities just minutes away from their own homes. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member from Livingstone-Macleod. Southern Alberta Grass Fire MR. COUTTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. By now we're all aware of the devastating prairie fire that occurred December 14 in the constituency of Livingstone-Macleod, in that part of the Porcupine Hills.

High winds, in excess of 100 kilometres, plus an ample supply of dry grass resulted in over 72,000 productive acres of private and agricultural lease land being totally destroyed beyond any sustainment of human and animal life, let alone anyone's ability to maintain a ranching or a farming livelihood.

Volunteer fire departments from Pincher Creek, the native reserve of Brocket, our own Environmental Protection depart- ment, Blairmore, the Crowsnest Pass, Fort Macleod, Claresholm, the MD of Willow Creek, plus all fire departments south of Calgary responded and spent 15 hours putting out this treacherous fire under very difficult conditions. Volunteers from every corner of southern Alberta, municipal district of Willow Creek staff members, plus many businesspeople worked side by side with these qualified volunteer firefighters to put out the blaze.

The command centre at the Granum fire hall was in jeopardy when fire threatened that small town and its residents, and volunteers came in to move everyone and evacuate that entire community and place those unfortunate folks in safe places like Claresholm and Fort Macleod. Fortunately by midnight that night the town was saved, and the fire was pretty well out. A special thank you to Don Douglas, the Granum fire chief; the mayor of the town of Granum; all of those ladies of the town of Granum who provided food; and those businesses who helped donate coffee to everyone who helped put that fire out.

Particu- larly I'd like to thank the RCMP who stayed through the entire episode over those three days and put in many hours of overtime to help sustain law and order. Of course, after a fire of this magnitude there needs to be assessment and cleanup. Thank goodness there was no loss of life, and I would like to thank all the volunteers who donated hay, straw, posts, and wire, particularly Joy Hurlburt for administrat- ing these funds, the minister of agriculture and the Minister of Transportation and Utilities for quick response in helping our people. Mr.

Speaker, with time, rain, and the grace of God that grassland and people's livelihoods will be restored again. Thank you. head: Projected Government Business THE SPEAKER: The Opposition House Leader. MR. SAPERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Pursuant to Standing Orders I would request that the Deputy Government House Leader reveal the government's agenda for next week. MR. HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd be pleased to unfold for you the projected government business for next week.

On Monday, February 2, in the afternoon we would be delighted to proceed with Government Bills and Orders to second reading – bills 1, 2, 7, and 10 – and furtherance of the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne. In the evening Government Bills and Orders for second reading, again bills 1, 2, 7, and 10, and furtherance of the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne. On Tuesday, February 3, at 4:30 p.m. Government Bills and Orders and under Government Motions we will be addressing the Easter and sessional adjournment motions.

In the evening government bills 1, 2, 7, and 10 for their next order of reading or Committee of the Whole, as the case may be, and again address in reply to the Speech from the Throne. On Wednesday evening under Government Bills and Orders second reading for bills 5, 8, 9, and 1 1 and address in reply to the Speech from the Throne. On Thursday, February 5, in the afternoon under Government Bills and Orders address in reply to the Speech from the Throne and second reading, Committee of the Whole, or third reading for bills 1, 2, 7, and 10.

THE SPEAKER: Hon. members, we now have to deal with a large number of procedural matters. We have one Standing Order item that has been brought to the attention of the Assembly, and I would ask all members to get their Standing Orders out and carefully read those sections under Standing Order 15. That is the most serious of all sections within the Standing Orders. We have two submissions under Standing Order 40, and we have between three and five points of order, which I'll have to review after just to make sure. Some have been withdrawn or not withdrawn. There's been a flurry of notes.

So we will first of all deal with a notice that I had received this morning from the Leader of the Official Opposition with respect to wanting to rise on a point of privilege in the Assembly pursuant to Standing Order 15. Privilege Reflections on a Member and on Community Groups MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to explain my point of privilege. The Premier of Alberta by calling me, community groups, constituents within my constituency hypocrites yesterday has threatened my ability to represent my constituents and to ensure that they are treated fairly and equally by this government.

Those statements plus the statement he made concerning a Catholic church in this House yesterday further threaten the ability of many Members of this Legislative Assembly

58 Alberta Hansard January 29, 1998 to ensure that their constituents are treated fairly and equally by this government. The not so subtle threat in the Premier's statements is that he will punish anyone who is inclined to criticize him or his govern- ment's policies. He will take away or deny lottery and gaming grants to those organizations that for whatever reason disagree with some of his policies. Of course, the Premier will say that it will be their choice, Mr. Speaker, but the reality is that he leaves them absolutely no choice.

The Premier's comments yesterday made it abundantly clear that he believes there are some organizations that deserve lottery and gaming funds and other organizations that don't. Apparently the ones who deserve it are the ones that agree with the Premier's politics and policies. There is nothing more fundamental to democracy than fairness. There is nothing more privileged than our freedom to choose and to vote our conscience free of intimidation, implied or direct. This Premier with his statements yesterday threatened that freedom and that privilege.

The Premier has put a chill into the hopes and aspirations of community, religious, and not-for-profit organizations throughout this province who have developed expectations and even depend- encies upon gaming and lottery revenue because there is no other source of funds for the things that they must do to fulfill their community, religious, and other responsibilities.

The Premier's comments demonstrate just how capricious and uncertain that funding is, and his challenge to return the money if it comes from gaming demonstrates just what kind of government this govern- ment truly is. 3:00 The Premier's insensitive and threatening words cannot be interpreted as anything other than threats and as very real barriers to myself and to any other member of this Assembly who tries to represent their constituents and ensure that they are treated fairly. I submit that this constitutes a prima facie case of privilege, Mr. Speaker.

For support of my case I refer to a number of excerpts from Beauchesne and Erskine May. I refer you to

section 26(2) of Beauchesne: A question of privilege, on the other hand, is a question partly of fact and partly of law – the law of contempt of Parliament – and is a matter for the House to determine.

Section 28: It is clear that many acts which might offend against the law or the moral sense of the community do not involve a Member's capacity to serve the people who have chosen him as their representative nor are they contrary to the usage nor derogatory to the dignity of the House of Commons. Beauchesne,

section 62: To amount to contempt, representations or statements about our proceedings or of the participation of members should not only be erroneous or incorrect, but, rather, should be purposely untrue and improper and import a ring of deceit. The Premier knew, I believe, when he made his statements that in fact video slot machine funds are not required to cover money that goes to community groups.

In fact, all that video slot machine money goes into general revenues, and it is other gambling revenues that could be used to go directly into commu- nity groups from sources that are not anywhere nearly as addic- tive. But better yet, Mr. Speaker, that money doesn't have to come at all from lottery revenues should they make a different budgetary decision.

Section 64: The House has occasionally taken notice of attacks on individual Members. Most notably, in 1880 John Macdonell, while seated at his desk in the House, referred to a Member, L.S. Huntingdon, as “a cheat and a swindler”. Removed from the House, he returned twice more to repeat the charge and finally concluded with a written note to the same effect. For the offence, Mr. Macdonell was judged guilty of a br each of privilege and was summoned to the Bar to apologize. From Erskine May, Mr. Speaker,

chapter 9, page 1 15: Generally speaking, any act or omission which obstructs or impedes either House of Parliament in the performance of its functions, or which obstructs or impedes any Member or officer of such House in the discharge of his duty, or which has a tendency, directly or indirectly, to produce such results may be treated as a contempt even though there is no precedent of the offence. It is therefore impossible to list every act which might be considered to amount to a contempt, the power to punish for such an offence being of its nature discretionary.

Page 1 19: “The Commons may treat the making of a deliber- ately misleading statement as a contempt.” Page 121: Indignities offered to the House by words spoken or writings published reflecting on its character or proceedings have been constantly punished by both the Lords and the Commons upon the principle that such acts tend to obstruct the Houses in the performance of their functions by diminishing the respect due to them. Reflections upon Members, the particular individuals not being named or otherwise indicated, are equivalent to reflections on the House.

Page 124: Other acts besides words spoken or writings published reflecting upon either House or its proceed ings which, though they do not tend directly to obstruct or impede either House in the perfor- mance of its functions, yet have a tendency to produce this result indirectly by bringing such House into odium, contempt or ridicule or by lowering its authority may constitute contempts. “It is a contempt to molest a Member.” This is at page 126 in Erskine May. Mr.

Speaker, in more current language we would say that it is a contempt to threaten a member. `That it is a gross breach of the privilege of this House for any person to obstruct and insult the Members of this House in the coming to, or the going from, the House, and to endeavour to compel Members by force to declare themselves in favour of, or against any proposition then depending or expected to be brought before the House'.

I want to read that again. `That it is a gross breach of the privilege of this House for any person to obstruct and insult the Members of this House in the coming to, or the going from, the House, and to endeavour to compel Members by force to declare themselves in favour of, or against any proposition then depending or expected to be brought before the House'.

Page 128: “To attempt to intimidate a Member in his parlia- mentary conduct by threats is also a contempt, cognate to those mentioned above.” Page 129: Conduct not amounting to a direct attempt improperly to influence Members in the discharge of their duties but having a tendency to impair their independence in the future performance of their duty may be treated as a contempt. Mr. Speaker, I leave the matter with you and look forward to your judgment. THE SPEAKER: The Government House Leader. MR. HAVELOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have reviewed

January 29, 1998 Alberta Hansard 59 the relevant sections in Beauchesne, especially those relayed to the Legislature by the Leader of the Opposition, and quite frankly I have not found any arguments made by the leader which would qualify as a question of privilege. Rather, his arguments are based on alleged statements or subtle threats which he has attributed or inferred to the Premier.

I can find no such statement having been made by the Premier, nor can I or, I would venture, any reasonable person infer any subtle threat from those state- ments that he will punish any constituency that has not voted Conservative by taking away or denying lottery or gaming grants to those organizations in those constituencies. It's always impressive to cite precedent in s upport of one's arguments but only if one has an argument and only if such precedent applies to the argument. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, his allegation, in my opinion, is so baseless that it should not only be dismissed, but he should apologize here and now to the Premier for his remarks. Alternately, Mr. Speaker, if you do not feel it would be appropriate to dismiss this question of privilege, I request that you delay a decision until at least Monday so that I may have an opportunity to prepare a further response to the allegations. THE SPEAKER: I gather no other members wish to participate in this point.

The chair received notice of this this morning – and it did receive notice of it by 1 1 o'clock this morning under Standing Orders – that in essence such a purported point could be raised, and at least the raising of it certainly does deal within compliance of Standing Order 15(2). Secondly, the chair certainly would indicate to all publicly and to the Leader of the Opposition that this was the earliest opportunity that he would have had to raise this matter. So from that point of view he certainly has complied with it.

The chair has read the subject matter on at least half a dozen occasions and refers to the letter that he'd received from the Leader of the Opposition. The leader points out in his letter, “My point of privilege will refer to comments of the Premier in question period yesterday.” It is that point on which the chair has spent his time assessing what was said. It had to do with the comments of the Premier in the question period yesterday. Now, in the remarks given by the hon. leader here in the last few minutes, several things were said. The use of the word “hypocrite” has already been dealt with.

That was today, not yesterday. I guess the primary point that the hon. leader is saying is: The Premier made a subtle threat that he will punish any constitu- ency that has not voted Conservative by taking away or denying lottery and gaming grants to organizations in those constituencies. I guess the formative words really, in reviewing this, would be, one, “subtle threat” and then a simple word, “punish,” by itself. 3:10 The chair would have hoped that the focus of attention today would have been on showing how the Premier had said that yesterday in question period.

A very, very, careful review of the Hansard on more than one occasion leads the Speaker to the following conclusion. The evidence does not support a prima facie case of privilege, and under Standing Order 15(7) when the Speaker finds there is no prima facie case of privilege, there are no further proceedings on the matter. [interjections] No further proceedings on the matter means exactly just that. head: Motions under Standing Order 40 Completion of Ramadan THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. MS CARLSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There are two aspects that speak to the urgency of the motion that I proposed earlier in the House which would congratulate Muslims who have completed Ramadan and are now today celebrating Eid, which is the day of celebration following the monthlong fast. One of them has to do with the timing of Ramadan. Ramadan is the last month in the lunar calendar for Muslims. It officially ended the day before yesterday. However, because the ending of this month holds such significance in the faith, many Muslims rely upon a visual sighting of the m oon before they'll start the new cycle.

This sighting is required in the Middle East, and on the appropriate day this time the day was cloudy and the moon could not be sighted. Therefore, the ending of Ramadan was postponed to yesterday, and the day of celebration of Eid is today. Today, therefore, would be the appropriate day to pass on our good wishes to this large community. The second aspect that I would like to deal with was very well said yesterday by the Member for Calgary-McCall.

When he was speaking to the congratulations we sent on in terms of the year of the tiger, he said, “What we are witnessing here today is a real example of where we as a society have arrived.” I think that also speaks to being able to pass on good wishes with regard to Ramadan. Today, we have an opportunity in the Assembly to promote tolerance, understanding, and the celebration of one of a variety of cultures who call Alberta home. So from that perspective, Mr. Speaker, I would urge all members of the Assembly to give unanimous consent to my motion.

THE SPEAKER: Might we have unanimous consent to proceed with the motion proposed by the hon. Member for Edmonton- Ellerslie? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. THE SPEAKER: Opposed? It's carried. Ms Carlson moved:

Be it resolved that this Legisl ative Assembly congratulate the nearly 100,000 Muslims in Alberta on the completion of Ramadan, the month of fasting. MS CARLSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It's an honour for me to stand today before you and speak to this issue. As a non-Muslim I don't have a full and complete understanding of the religion, but certainly I am working towards a better understanding. We have a member in the Assembly who I am sure will be addressing this issue and who can further enlighten us.

As the holiest month for Muslims, Muslims fast from the beginning of the month to the end of the month, and they fast from dawn until sundown. No water, nothing passes their lips during this time period. To fast during this time is part of the Muslim commandments and is the third pillar of Islam in their religion. The other pillars are faith, prayer, Zaka't, which is charity, and Hajj, which is the pilgrimage to Mecca. As such, this is a very fundamental belief for their faith that really needs to

60 Alberta Hansard January 29, 1998 be carried out and recognized, I believe, by all of us who work with and know Muslims in the community. I would compare this to our Easter celebration. Many people say that Eid is like Christmas for us, but for me as a Christian I believe it's more like Easter. Traditionally, in the past we have fasted during Lent. Y ou give up something that you cherish, that you hold dear, and then everybody celebrates with family and friends and the sharing of gifts and good food on Easter. Here the same happens on Eid.

Today will see many families through- out this province who have visited the mosque during the day and who will then gather and travel from house to house sharing the ending of the fast with all of their friends and family. From that perspective, I think it's very important for us to recognize it. Today I've come dressed in a traditional Shalvar chemise, which is really native to people who originate from Pakistan, from the lower Indian subcontinent, and from some areas of Africa.

It's a long blouse and pants, which make ease of movement very applicable, and it is also accompanied by a dubuttah, which, while being decorative, has a more formal aspect in this particular religion, and that is that most Muslim women adhere to some form of veiling while they are praying and while they are in the company of men who are not close relatives of their own. What you would do with a dubuttah like this is simply cover your head during prayers or in the company of people who are not close male relatives.

In doing that, I would like to recognize this culture, congratulate them on being in Alberta and helping us to learn more about them. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-McCall. MR. SHARIFF: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to add my greetings and congratulations to the hundred thousand Albertans of the Muslim faith who are celebrating Id al-Fitr today. Mr. Speaker, some 1 billion people around the world practise the Islamic faith. They belong to numerous cultures and tradi- tions; however, they come together in this one month, the occasion of fasting.

For this full month they fast from sunrise to sunset. It is a very holy month in the Islamic calendar. It is the month when the Holy Koran was revealed. Mr. Speaker, this is a time for Muslims for introspection, for self-discipline, for generosity, for contemplating . . . [interjection] Have I said something that's . . . [interjection] Oh, I'm sorry. It is a time when we think about the underprivileged, those who are less fortunate, and I'd like to add my greetings to the Muslim people.

I'm sorry that I didn't understand some of the laughter that was going on, but this is a very important and a very serious occasion, and I'd like each one of you to join me in extending greetings to the Muslim people. Thank you. [Motion carried] THE SPEAKER: Hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie, I have a question to ask of you, and it's one that I'll also ask of the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. These kinds of congratulations are very much in order.

The difficulty the Speaker has – and it arose out of a question asked the hon. member yesterday, when congratulations were to go under the lunar New Y ear – is that traditionally what the Speaker would do is have a very nice scroll prepared with the official symbol of the Alberta Legislative Assembly, and it would be directed to a community, to a commu- nity leader. The motion yesterday puts us in a position where we don't know who to send this to. Perhaps the hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie and perhaps the hon.

Member for Calgary- McCall might get back to our office today or tomorrow or over the next several days as to whom we might send this official greeting and congratulations from the Alberta Legislative Assem- bly. Surely with 100,000 individuals in Alberta it would be quite prohibitive for us to send 100,000 individual congratulations, because quite frankly we don't have the addresses. So perhaps that would be helpful. 3:20 Winter Olympics THE SPEAKER: The second SO 40 that we have is the hon. Member for Edmonton-Glengarry. MR. BONNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The urgency of this request is that our athletes are departing today, and we would like to see them have the support and best wishes from all members of the Assembly to take on their journey with them. By allowing the Assembly to speak to this issue today, we can give our athletes our heartfelt best to take with them over to Nagano and support them in their competitions. I seek unanimous consent to speak to this motion. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: Having heard the motion by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Glengarry, does the Assembly agree with the motion? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. THE SPEAKER: Opposed? Carried.

Please proceed, hon. member. Mr. Bonner moved:

Be it resolved that under Standing Order 40 the Legislative Assembly recognize and congratulate all athletes and coaches who will be representing Canada at the Winter Olympics, to be held in Nagano, Japan, February 6 to 23, 1998. MR. BONNER: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The journey for the Alberta athletes to the Winter Olympic Games in Nagano, Japan, began many years ago. These athletes have been working for years to reach this highest goal of worldwide excellence.

They have dedicated a large part of their youth to the pursuit of excellence in their chosen sport, hours spent away from their families and friends to train and push themselves to be the best at what they can do. Have they achieved these feats alone? Of course not. They've had the support of their parents, coaches, family members, teachers, and the community at large to place them where they are today. We are watching Alberta's finest compete over the next few weeks. Entire communities w ill be bursting with pride and know that they have played a

part in sending such fine representatives to the Winter Olympics. Mr. Speaker, the constituency of Edmonton-Glengarry will be well represented by one of these fine young athletes, a young man by the name of Chris Yule, a hockey player who played the majority of his hockey in northeast Edmonton. He enjoys dual citizenship and will be playing for Japan in these Olympics. When we watch our young athletes like Chris compete in Nagano, I'm sure that many of us will remember those miraculous few weeks when Alberta was the host of these special games. The

January 29, 1998 Alberta Hansard 61 manner in which this province worked together to make the Winter Games such a success is symbolic of the very meaning of the Olympics. We hope that the citizens of Nagano will work together as we did in 1988 to host the world in friendship and unity throughout these games. We wish our athletes the best of luck in their venture. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, as an Edmontonian myself and one that deals a great deal with amateur athletes I'd like to rise for a few moments to wish special congratulations for making the team to a young man by the name of Pierre Lueders, who is on his way. He has made a dash in the world of the two- and four-man bobsleighs. He comes from our city and our province. He does all his winter training in the province and does the best he can to represent us. He is one of those that has dedicated his life thus far to the pursuit of gold at the Olympics, and he does not receive a great deal of funding.

In fact, he lives annually on a matter of $10,000 or $15,000, that he can make in between the time that he's off training. I would like to send a special message to him to do the best he can to represent us. We're all very proud of him here regardless of the outcome. MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to stand in support of this motion.

On Tuesday I had the opportunity to attend a send-off luncheon in Calgary for the Canadian athletes – and certainly all of our Alberta athletes were there – and to bring our athletes, our Canadian team, our congratulations and best wishes on behalf of Premier Klein and all of my colleagues in government. It was an emotional opportunity for me, I can tell you, and I want to just tell you a bit about the staging of the event. The athletes marched in and stood at the front, were called out by name, by province, and by event that they would be participating in.

A singer from our province, Susan Smith, a very talented lady, who many of us have heard sing our national anthem, sang O Canada in French and in English. I always feel very proud when our anthem is sung at any occasion, but when I looked at the athletes and saw the emotion on those young people's faces, I believe that it really struck some of them for the first time that they are competing for their country. I had the opportunity to speak to the athletes and to send them our best wishes.

I told our Alberta athletes that regardless of the outcome in Nagano – the pronunciation is, I guess, a choice – to remember that here in Alberta they are already heroes and champions. They have proven themselves to be among the best athletes in Canada, and when they go to Nagano, they will rightfully take their place among the best in the world. I also mentioned that as they team up with their colleagues from across Canada, whether it's New Brunswick, Quebec, Newfoundland, British Columbia, or any other province, they represent what makes Canada the best nation in the world.

The Olympics are not just about three medals given out for each event, and I truly believe this. They are about competing for your country, for your family, for your community, and for yourself. For every gold, silver, and bronze medal that will be given out at those events, there will be a number of personal bests, personal victories by Olympians from around the world, and I think we want to remember that. The personal victories or goals that are reached seldom receive media attention, but I believe they are just as important as that trip to the platform.

There is something about the Olympics that inspires every athlete to be the best that they can be. I think there's something special in our province, and I believe it perhaps started in 1988, when Calgary hosted probably the best ever Olympic Games. The spirit of 1988 has remained with us since that time. Our athletes have stepped up their efforts. This year our Canadian athletes are expected to improve their record for the third consecutive year.

For the first time curling, snowboarding, and women's hockey will be official sports at the Nagano games, and you've all heard of the interest in, particu- larly, women's hockey. I had the opportunity to sit with Hayley Wickenheiser and talk to her about this wonderful opportunity for them to be at the Olympics. Mr. Speaker, as minister responsible for sport and recreation in this province I've had an opportunity to spend time with many Alberta athletes of all ages. These are some very special people and fine Albertans.

They conduct themselves on and off the field or in the event that they are in in a very, very fine way, and every one of us should be proud of these young people. I believe that the same can be said of our 1998 Winter Olympians. Their hard work and dedication have already made them role models for many young Albertans. Like most achievements in life, Mr. Speaker, athletic successes are rarely achieved alone, and I think today we should recognize and thank all the families, all the coaches, the sponsors, the supporters, and the communities of these athletes.

This support along the way has enabled these young people to compete in these Olympic Games and realize their Olympic dreams. Many of us will not be able to attend the Olympics and see them in person, but I assured those athletes that we would be watching them at every opportunity and that they would be in our hearts and that our best wishes go with them and how very proud we are of them. My last comment was “Go, Canada, go.” Thank you. 3:30 THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-West. MS KRYCZKA: Y es, Mr. Speaker. I stand here before you today, and this is a totally unprepared speech. MRS.

McCLELLAN: So was mine. MS KRYCZKA: Okay. I was listening to the minister and saying: well, my daughter is an ex-Olympian, and I can tell you firsthand what she went through to get to the Olympics and the personal price you pay but also the ultimate reward, even if you don't bring home a gold medal. Kelly, this is for you. I don't want to get emotional. MRS. McCLELLAN: I did in Calgary. MS KRYCZKA: Did you? My daughter Kelly Kryczka swam in the '84 Olympics in L.A., and she came home with a silver medal with Sharon Hambrook and was a member of the Aquabelles synchronized swimming team for many years.

I can tell you that from when Kelly first started synchronized swimming, when she was eight years old, it very quickly got to be that the fun left the sport and you work really hard. I was thinking of some key points. I have lots of memories, you know, of walking her to a certain point, and I could see her go down the hill into the club where she goes to swim at the 6 o'clock morning practices and all of that. But I'm not here to talk about the parent; I'm here to talk about the competitor.

62 Alberta Hansard January 29, 1998 I have seen firsthand the hard work and the dedication and commitment that these young athletes are committed to for years. I do want to also make a point that I think I can speak on firsthand: there's a personal price they pay for this. Their schooling often is delayed because, for instance, if you're going to university, you go part-time for a number of years and might finally finish your degree. There is a cost, a personal cost, to it.

She had some boyfriends, but I can tell you that they didn't hang around very long when they realized that the number one thing in her life was her sport. I did go to L.A., I have to say, in '84. I went on a number of exciting trips before that, but the excitement of being down at an actual Olympic event and being a parent is something I just can't describe. There were a number of us that went down from Calgary that year.

I did watch, again, the athletes, and they knew in that particular sport that there was no way they were going to win the gold, even if they were the best competitors, and that was a bit of a bitter pill to swallow. I just have to say that the pride they felt as Canadians, the send-off that they got locally, and the reception they came home to – it's is something we have to do for these athletes. That's the least we can do for these athletes, because they do have hurts inside if they aren't number one in the world, and not everyone can be.

Just to tell them that they did their personal best and be proud of them is the true message. So thank you very much. This was great. I wasn't expecting that I would ever say what I just said, not to this audience. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: Before I call the vote, I've been accused of making the odd editorial comment, but I'm going to do it again anyway. To the hon. Member for Calgary-West. In 1984 your daughter was 14?

Y ou must have been a very young mother. [Motion carried] THE SPEAKER: Well, since we last notified the House that there were anywhere from three to five points of order, we've now received notice that two of them have been withdrawn, so we've got three to deal with. The first we'll deal with, if it still is one, is by the hon. Opposition House Leader. Point of Order Inflammatory Language MR. SAPERS: Mr. Speaker, there was a heated exchange during question period, as you're well aware.

The first time that I rose on a point of order, it was to deal with the Premier's name-calling in the House, and I believe that you correctly intervened at that time. So the first point of order dealt with the Premier's use of the word “hypocrite.” Subsequent to your ruling, I will withdraw that particular point of order. THE SPEAKER: Okay. I'm pleased to advise that the Govern- ment House Leader has also indicated to me that he's withdrawing his point of order on the basis of the interjection. So we're now dealing with the hon. Member for Edmonton- Riverview. Point of Order Parliamentary Language MR. SAPERS: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of my colleague from Edmonton-Riverview the point of order cited pertains to a violation of Standing Orders, under 23(j), the use of insulting language, and I will also reference Beauchesne 494. Again, it came up during question period, and it was an exchange between the Member for Edmonton-Riverview and the Minister of Family and Social Services. The Minister of Family and Social Services referred to certain Albertans as lower class Albertans. The first time that he did so, Mr. Speaker, my colleague was prepared to let it pass.

However, in response to a subsequent question, he then tried to turn the table and suggest that the use of such a word was despicable. I think that was the word that he chose. Now, under 23(j), the use of insulting language, I think it's clear that calling some Albertans, particularly those in need, despicable is very insulting. On the other hand, he may have been referring to another member in this Assembly; I'm not sure. That would be equally insulting.

Section 494 in Beauchesne reminds us all that we must take one another's statements at face value, that we have to take all hon. members at their word. Certainly we accept the hon. minister's word and agree that referring to some Albertans as lower class is in fact despicable. Based on that, I would ask that the minister withdraw his use of that term to describe some Albertans who are in need. MR. HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I think that the use of a point of order on this type of an event is a misuse of the point of order itself.

It was clear from the exchange at the time that the minister had no intention of using the term “lower class,” and he made that clear. What he referred to as despicable was the follow-up that came from the opposition side. The Official Opposition House Leader has tried to indicate that the minister was describing a group of Albertans as being despicable, and from my recollec- tion of the event that clearly was not the case. So there's no point of order here. There was a clear exchange.

The minister clarified what he intended to say and made it very clear that he thought the use of such terminology would be despicable. THE SPEAKER: Well, the Blues clearly indicate that the hon. minister in question did use the phrase “lower class.” That certainly is in there. The Blues also indicate that the hon. Minister of Family and Social Services then retracted that by saying the following: “I made a slip of the tongue.

What I was referring to was lower income.” Further, the Blues indicate that the hon. minister did say, “I find it quite repulsive when you talk about lower class.” From a quick review of this and having heard the arguments, it is a fact; the statement was made. It is also a fact that the hon. minister said that it was a slip of the tongue and that what he was referring to was “lower income.” On the basis of the retraction, I'd submit that there actually is no point of order at this point. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. Point of Order Repetition MR. SAPERS: Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

This is actually on my very own point of order. It has to do, once again, with an exchange during question period between the Treasurer and my colleague from Edmonton-Mill Creek. I cite Standing Order 23(

c) and Beauchesne 62, I believe. In any case, just to remind you and all hon. members,

section 23 reads that a member will be called to order by the Speaker if, in the Speak- er's opinion, that member . . . (

c) persists in needless repetition. Mr. Speaker, this House has been abused by the Treasurer for

January 29, 1998 Alberta Hansard 63 some time now with his perpetuation of the myth that a Liberal government in the province of Alberta would impose some kind of sales tax. In trying to deflect a question about the fact that he was saying one thing to bankers in New Y ork and something else to farmers in Red Deer about the Alberta government's plan to raise revenues, in order to deflect attention away from that question, he once again had the temerity to stand in this Chamber and raise this straw man of an Alberta Liberal sales tax.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of that myth being repeated by that member in that way, and it clearly does violate 23(c). It also violates Beauchesne, where we are reminded that members must not make knowingly false statements. I think the Treasurer clearly knows, because he's been told in this Chamber and outside this Chamber time and time and time again that the only political party in the province of Alberta that continues to talk about sales taxes are the Progressive Conservatives, not the Liberals. 3:40 MR. HANCOCK: Well, Mr. Speaker, once again the hon.

House leader of the Official Opposition is using points of order to try and engage in debate and make points which would be more properly made elsewhere. In this particular case, the Provincial Treasurer was not engaging in needless repetition. He only said that once in the House today, as I recall it, and surely that

section of the rules talks about needless repetition within the same context of the same speech, not over a period of time. Nonetheless, getting to the point of the discussion, what I heard the Provincial Treasurer say – and I haven't had the benefit of the Blues on this matter – was that the only party in this province which continually raises the matter of a sales tax is the Liberal Party. And that is clearly correct. The Conservative Party does not raise the question of a sales tax on and on and on. We basically have said that there will be no sales tax.

As I recall when I ran in the election in 1993, the people who raised the question of whether there should be a sales tax were Liberals. The Liberals have raised this many times. It's evident to Albertans that that's the case, so to suggest that's wrong or malicious is clearly false. Once again, I hesitate to do this, because I think we're debating a point which should more properly be debated elsewhere, other than under points of order, but I'm drawn to do it b ecause it's been raised in this particular context. There's no point of order in this case.

THE SPEAKER: Hon. member, it's certainly the right of an individual to rise on a point of order. The onus then is having to really make an argument that there is a point of order. An argument was given under

section 23(c), which says, “Persists in needless repetition or raises matters which have been decided during the current session.” This session will not make any decision whatsoever with respect to any sales tax that the Liberal Party of Alberta would not want to deal with, would never want to have or anything else, because the Liberal Party of Alberta is not the government. So I don't think citation 23(

c) is probably quite the correct one. Deputy Government House Leader, your addition to the debate had to do with other than

section 23(c). Then we started talking about what happened in the past. Well, that's really not the situation today. This is clearly a difference of opinion, and it's going to continue each day and every day, so let's make sure that we understand what the rules of order are all about. A couple of hon. members have written me notes and said to me as the Speaker: “What can you do about this situation? The clock now says quarter to 4 and we started at 1:30.” Well, the Speaker can't do anything about this. The members control the House.

If the members want to stand up and raise questions, if the members want to interject with one another, if the members want to insult one another, if the members want to laugh when a certain member is giving a statement, if the members want to continue a Standing Order 40 to allow one- and two-hour debates, it's the members who write the rules, not the Speaker. It's the members who control the House, not the Speaker. If the mem- bers want to have five points of order, that's the members' right, and we'll take the necessary time in the protection of democracy to do that.

The members write the rules, not the Speaker. The Speaker will deal with the

interpretation of them. head: Orders of the Day head: Consideration of His Honour head: the Lieutenant Governor's Speech Mr. Coutts moved: That an humble address be presented to His Honour the Honour- able the Lieutenant Governor as follows.

To His Honour the Honourable H.A. “Bud” Olson, Lieutenant Governor of the province of Alberta: We, Her Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Legisla- tive Assembly, now assembled, beg leave to thank you, Y our Honour, for the gracious speech Y our Honour has been pleased to address to us at the opening of the present session. [Debate adjourned January 28] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Highwood. MR. TANNAS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased today to rise to support the motion that was so eloquently made by the hon. Member for Livingstone-Macleod and ably seconded by the hon. Member for Calgary-Fort.

I'm pleased to extend congratulations as well to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor for his fine reading of the Speech from the Throne last Tuesday. I'd like to underscore the comments made at the outset of the speech. Our greatest obligation is to leave our children and our grandchil- dren a province that is even better than the one which was left to us . . . Over the past five years Albertans have built a solid foundation for the next generation. Thanks to their hard work there is renewed and more balanced prosperity throughout our house . . .

The net provincial debt should be gone by 2000 or 2001 if oil and gas prices remain stable. But there is more work to do. I think these comments from the speech outline much of the work that lies ahead in this year, the second-last year of this millen- nium, and I think we all will look forward to the challenges of the new legislation that's coming before us and a new budget that will be here on the 12th of February. Mr.

Speaker, I want next to draw to the attention of all hon. members something that appears near the end of the Speech from the Throne wherein reference is made to the quality of Alberta's public service. The government will continue to provide responsive and responsible programs through a public service recognized as among the most focused, creative, and productive in Canada. It will strive to retain, attract, and develop the talented, skilled, and versatile employees required to serve Albertans' developing needs into the next century.

64 Alberta Hansard January 29, 1998 Well, Mr. Speaker, I think that this is a tremendous compliment to all those who serve Alberta in the public service: the nurses, civil servants, school bus drivers, forest rangers, t eachers, janitors, custodial officers, social workers, Legislative Assembly employees and officers, peace officers, and many others, whose efforts and personal sacrifices made our deficit elimination and debt pay-down programs possible. It was all of these energetic Albertans who continued to find new ways to spend public money with greater stewardship and efficiency in these past few years.

Their contribution is recognized, and all Albertans are apprecia- tive of their dedication, fiscal responsibility, and effectiveness. Y es, we have fine people who work in the public service to make Alberta a better place. Mr. Speaker, I support and endorse the Sp eech from the Throne. This speech, delivered by His Honour on Tuesday, is an exciting and forward-looking document. I now take my seat to afford colleagues the opportunity to make their comments, which I'm sure will be supportive. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Career Development. MR. DUNFORD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to certainly add my congratulations to the Member for Livingstone-Macleod for the articulate speech that he gave and also to the Member for Calgary-Fort in seconding the motion. I was particularly pleased to see the highlights in the Speech from the Throne that continued our manner and our practice of fiscal conservatism.

I know that many constituents that I repre- sent in Lethbridge-West became very concerned when the media was inundated with messages from our government, your current speaker included, when we discussed an increase in spending in some of the areas we view as critical here in the province. The question that I was asked repeatedly, particularly in coffee shops and on the streets, was: have you guys gone back to the old way of doing things?

So I was particularly pleased, then, when the speech set out in very clear terms and very early in the speech that as fiscal conservatives we were still on track and with our plan. 3:50 I want it to resonate hopefully through my words this afternoon that the class of '93 that came forward with the Premier and where we took it upon ourselves to create a revolution in terms of spending in this particular prov ince, that that spirit continues to live. The announcements that we are making in this speech and in these days in terms of increased spending are really, in my view, fiscal dividends.

The speech that was given the other day by the Lieutenant Governor would not have been possible had not all of the things that have been done since 1993 and basically right through until today taken place. We appreciate, of course, the support that we r eceived in the election of '97 from the constituen ts that voted for not only the particular members that are now represented on the government side of the House but also the new MLAs that became part of our team after that particular election.

I don't know what the exact turnover was in terms of new members, but each of them in their own particular way is now adding strength to the team that we know as the Klein government, to the team that has always had as its motto: an Alberta advantage. Everywhere we look on the government benches, we continue to see the fiscal conservatism that was brought into place early and now continues.

I can't stress how important I feel a continued fiscally conserva- tive frame of mind and manner of governing is, so important, because when we read the documents now of the government in terms of the accumulated debt that still remains . . . MR. DOERKSEN: How much is it? MR. DUNFORD: It's $14 billion once we have reduced our net debt to zero. What is particularly amazing to me and I'm sure to other Albertans, if they were to stop and think about it for a moment, is that that debt of $14 billion costs the taxpayers of this province approximately $1 billion each and every year.

Let's frame up what $1 billion actually means. If we were not spending that $1 billion as a line item in our budget in terms of interest on debt, that $1 billion would actually fund all of the colleges and the universities that are now operating in this province. I mean, this is . . . MR. HIERATH: Double your budget. MR. DUNFORD: Well, I'm not asking for my budget to be doubled, because I've already explained that I'm a fiscal conserva- tive.

However, it just merely points out, you know, what would be possible for the people of Alberta, whether it be in the education system or in the health system or in a social safety net, if we had our total debt at zero. So we want to encourage all members, as we view this particular Speech from the Throne, rec ognizing that we are bringing more resources to work in the key, critical areas, that we still are a government whose firs t objective is the pay-down of debt. For that, I'm extremely appreciative.

The Alberta Growth Summit, which was also highlighted in the Speech from the Throne, I believe will be viewed by history not as a watershed but as a turning point in how we deal with government budgets. I think that for too long – and I'm talking now prior to 1993 – we've paid lip service to people, but what we actually had were dollars that were being spent on buildings. We had dollars that were being spent in areas that came primarily from influences by vested-interest groups in health, in education, in postsecondary education, in many, many areas. Transportation would be another.

Utilities is another; energy is another. We're trying to remove that influence. What the Growth Summit has clearly put on the political agenda for all of us in this House – and we all have to respond to this – is the fact that the number one concern of Albertans is the development of people. Now, the Premier has said previously and continues to repeat – and I hope that other members who have already taken up the message will continue to repeat it – is that there's a new style of government that's going on in Alberta and that that style of government is not going to just start adding to global budgets.

What we are going to be doing is finding in whatever way we can what the needs are that have to be addressed. In identifying those needs, the first thing we want to look at – and I believe that we will do this, and it's certainly my opinion that we should do this – is: how can we address that need in a nonfinancial way? Why is it that we should just automatically be driven toward a dollar problem-solving type of process?

So I would hope that as we examine the needs, as we do it collectively within this House, we will view it from a perspective of the need that's identified and here are the nonfinancial ways in which we will deal with it. Now, if we are unable from that perspective to deal with it in its entirety, then of course we want to look at: what financial resources do we have? We should not be frightened by the

January 29, 1998 Alberta Hansard 65 prospect of spending some of those dollars but, again, always within the context of our ability to pay. So the Alberta Growth Summit I think has done a number of things, but the important thing to me is that it's changed the perspective away from bricks and mortar to people, and for those of us that have been involved in the people business for oh so many years, this is a great thing that has taken place. Of course, we're encouraged and enthusiastic as we start to try to address, then, the needs that have been identified.

Identifying a need is one thing, but we also of course must keep in mind that always – always – we must focus on what will be the outcomes. Need based, outcome driven is a slogan that I think we would want to start to use in our various conversations that we have with people. [Mr. Clegg in the chair] It was very apparent in the speech, particularly from their placement, when we started to look at some of the needs that we're going to address. It is in my opinion only proper that the K to 12 education system should have been identified.

I don't think there's an MLA in this Chamber who hasn't heard the concerns that were being expressed in terms of our education system.

We did hear, of course, again a tremendous voicing from particular vested-interest groups as to amounts of money: “Look, you took X amounts out; you should throw a bunch more in.” We had this gobbledygook kind of stuff: “Out of 65 jurisdictions in North America, our spending per capita was 63rd.” I was able to point out to some folks that it wasn't a particularly dark cloud when you looked at the situation and discovered that a lot of the spending that we had taken out of the system was administrative costs.

The situation that I was particularly concerned about was: well, you know, if we looked at the dollars that were going into the classroom, then where did we rank? Well, folks, there wasn't much discussion on that by either opposition, vested-interest groups, or by the media generally, because all of a sudden then Alberta starts to look not too bad. I don't know that we led any sort of polls in that particular situation, but we substantially moved up the level. 4:00 I find the same sort of discussion going on now with this new money. Y ou know, what is that?

It is hard to envision a parent with a child or children that are involved in the school system sitting down after the newscast, looking at their spouse, looking at the children and saying: “Y ou know, $380 million going into the school system. I mean, those guys, what do they think they're doing? They can't do this. That's not new money.” Really, it is such a transparent mood from folks who won't be our friends anyway. So I would encourage the Minister of Education that when people come forward with that type of an argument, that is a signal to him: here we are, a vested-interest group.

There will never be enough money we could put into education, so he might as well focus and concentrate on the good job that he in fact is doing, because we've identified the needs that are in education, and we're making a start in getting to them. The adult education

section of the speech of course was particularly welcome as I happen to be responsible for that particular area. Where the Speech from the Throne, in talking about an agenda for opportunity, dovetails nicely into the Growth Summit and its people development is that I think most people, perhaps not all but most people, would understand that with a postsecondary system we do a number of things. One of the things we're able to do because we're investing in people is provide skills that are required not only in the existing economy that we have but of course in the new economy that we're marching forward to.

Not all of us know exactly what that new economy is going to look like – I don't think it's important for a minister to have to be a fortune teller to forecast the future – but certainly we need to have a plan in place so that we can move toward that future. Th is is what we of course try to do in a postsecondary education system. The consultations that have taken place under my predecessor, the then Member for Cardston – can I mention his name now that he's gone? I want to then make special mention of Mr.

Jack Ady, who, by the way, left this ministry in incredibly good shape, and I've been able to spend most of my time simply initiating plans that Jack Ady already had on the books. Through Jack Ady and through the department they went through two years of consulta- tions. It's just been very gratifying, and I certainly welcome the amount of discussion that's been able to take place amongst the folks that have an interest in postsecondary education and how we've been able to move some things along.

What we're particularly proud of in the adult education area was our ability to move forward into the system a new acc ount- ability framework, which we call the performance f unding envelope. For the interest of members here in the House who might not be fully up to date on our performance funding envelope, what we've done is we've taken a number of key performance indicators and an in stitution is rated against these particular indicators, and through the evaluation, through the calculation of the scores that they come up with, they then are eligible to receive performance awards.

So you have now in Alberta a system whereby part of the institution's operating budget is actually based on a performance evaluation system, part of which is internal but part of which is external as well. I'm happy to report that we are the only jurisdiction in Canada and one of three jurisdictions in North Am erica that has implemented this type of funding mechanism. Now, the other thing that Alberta did in the performance funding envelope was bring in the concept of research.

We have key performance indicators that evaluate at the university level: how is this particular institu tion doing by way of attracting research dollars? I'm happy to report that in that particular case, Mr. Speaker, now Alberta is the only jurisdiction in North America that is doing this. So many of us remember as SPC members and as members of our caucus that Jack Ady made a commitment to our caucus that there would be more accountability in the postsecondary system, and I'm happy to report today, speaking to the Speech from the Throne, that that in fact is in place.

These are tremendous, tremendous days for the postsecondary system. We want to be sure that everyone understands that through the transition period we've gone through, through the cuts the postsecondary institutions had to their operating budgets, to now the implementation of different funding envelopes, while we've had certainly a real decrease in the dollars that taxpayers spend in the postsecondary system, we've actually had an increase in the number of students. By any definition that is an increase in productivity. We should be extremely proud of our post- secondary system as it operates in Alberta today.

One of the opportunities that we now have in the better way of doing business within the government – I think clearly there's a lot more co-operation and collaboration between departments. The Speech from the Throne rec ognized one of those particular

66 Alberta Hansard January 29, 1998 areas, although it didn't define it, and I would like to take just a moment to do that now. That was regarding the national child benefit and the manner in which Alberta has decided to react, then, to the federal government's movement of the dollars into our area. [Mr. Dunford's speaking time expired] Hopefully I can get to that at another time. Thank you. THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton- Glenora. MR. SAPERS: Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

I have some remarks that I would like to enter into the record as far as my response and the response that I have heard from my constituents regarding the Speech from the Throne that was delivered on January 27. I would like to open my comments by reflecting momentarily on some of the points just made by the minister responsible for advanced education as he was reflecting on the Speech from the Throne, and I wonder whether or not we are in fact reflecting upon the same Speech from the Throne.

What I am very interested in knowing is: where in the Speech from the Throne does it say that parents who want the best for their children are a special-in

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	19980129
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L24 S2 19980129 1330 01 han.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d564a0082b8151ca0ef557d28d74649909d1c7ce

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