Manitoba Hansard — 12 May 1976 (Sitting 109, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-109

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 p. m. , Wednesday, May 12, 1976 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 3635 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 31 students, Grade 5 standing, of the Cranberry Portage School under the direction of Miss Amel Kostynyk. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon. And we have 35 students, Grade 9 standing of the Cecil Rhodes School under the direction of Mr. Jake Enns and Lloyd Wilmont.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Logan, the Deputy Speaker. And 11 students, Grade 7 and 8 standing of the Mcisaac Junior High School under the direction of Mr. and Mrs. Case. This school is also located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon. And we have 34 students, Grade 11 standing of Princess Elizabeth High School under the direction of Mr. Balkwill. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Brandon East, the Minister of Industry and Commerce. On behalf of all the honourable members , I welcome you here this aft ernoon.

Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. D. JAMES WALDING (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Standing Committee on Private Bills. MR. CLERK: Your Committee met for organization on Tuesday, May 11, 1976, and appointed Mr. Walding as Chairman. Your Committee recommends that the quorum for all meetings of the Committee consist of seven members.

Your Committee recommends that the time for receiving Petitions for Private Bills by the House be extended to the 25th day of May, 1976, and that the time for receiv ing Private Bills by the House be extended to the 31st day of May, 1976, All of which is respectful ly submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Speaker, arising from that report of the committee, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli, that the time for receiving Petitions for Private Bills be extended to the 25th day of May, 1976, and that the time for receiving Private Bills by the House be extended to the 31st day of May, 1976. MOTION presented and carried, MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS HON. RUSSE LL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the monthly report dealing with the unemployment figures.

I think, Sir, that it's only appropriate that today being Manitoba's birth date that I am able to provide an encoura ging note to my co lleagues in the Legislature that Manitoba is retaining its relatively favourable position insofar as unemployment in Canada is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affa irs) (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a brief statement in regard to today being Manitoba Day, most of the members having been at their caucus rooms, would wear the

3636 May 12, 1976 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ••••• Manitoba Tartan. I would refer them to the small card, which included the Tartan itself, giving the history of the Tartan and where it came from and what the colours of the Tartan mean. Activities today on May 12th marking Manitoba Day will feature artistic displays and demonstrations by Manitoba artists in different parts of the province.

Presentation of Actors' Showcase and Winnipeg Folk festivals in the foyer and the auditorium of the Manitoba Archives Building in downtown Winnipeg will be actually all afternoon and hope., fully some of this will go on this evening, for those members that are interested in seeing the work of many Manitoba artists. May 12th has been designated Manitoba Day to commemorate the day that the Manitoba Act creating the Province of Manitoba received Royal Assent back in 1870.

Leading to its proclamation July 15th of the same year, it was chosen especially because it enables children while still in classes to become involved in an important provincial celebration. It was also the date, Mr. Speaker, selected for the official unfurling of Manitoba'� flag in 1966, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. DONAID W. CRAIK (Leader-of the Official Opposition) (Riel): Mr. Speaker, just a word, brief word to second the statements made by the Minister before us. I also want to aay that we're very pleased to see that the tartan has hung around.

Although, I think most of us weren't in the Legislature at the time, some who are here now were here at the time that the tartan was brought forward and I can recall that the Premier, Duff Roblin, was the champion of creating a Manitoba tartan, and I'm pleased to see that it's carried forward. In these days of ethnic consciousness, I am sure that it's going to make a resurgence, Mr. Speaker, and we're going to see the Manitoba tartan used very broadly.

Apart from that we, as I say, second the Minister's comments and congratulate him on the efforts that he and his department have made to assist in celebration of this our birth date. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? The Honourable Member for Radisson making a Ministerial Statement? MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): No, Mr. Speaker, I would like to have permission of the House to make a small announcement. MR . SPEAKER: Is it agreed? Order please. The Honourable Member for Radisson. ANNOUNCEMENT MR. SHAFRANSKY: As part of the Manitoba Day the St.

Boniface Chamber of Commerce is going to be extending an invitation to all members of the House to a Pea Soup Night to be held tonight at the St. Boniface Cultural Centre starting at 8:00 o'clock. A long time tradition in St. Boniface, Pea Soup Night is being revitalized by the St. Boniface Chamber of Commerce. Always a popular event, Pea Soup Night,offers our elected representatives the opportunity to meet with people on an informal basis. During the evening the representatives are asked to share the podiwn to be introduced and speak out freely.

All this will be conducted in an atmosphere of good cheer and cordiality. The Chamber of Commerce is looking forward wi. th anticipation to the members attendance toirlght at Pea Soup Night. And this is an invitation extended by the President of the St. Boniface Chamber of Commerce, Mr. Lord. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. Order please. The Honourable Member have leave? The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, in commemoration of Manitoba Day, the Conservative caucus is playing the Fourth Estate fastball tonight as well. MR .

SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. Questions. The Honourable Member for Lakeside.

May 12, 1976 3637 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the First Minister, and it arises out of reports emanating from Montreal today by the Chairman of the Canada Steamships Lines Limited where he indicates virtual certainty of substantial increases on their toll rates on the St. Lawrence Seaway. My direct question to the Honourable Minister is: has he had an opportunity to forward the resolution recently passed in this Chamber raising objections to this action? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the procedure with respect to the forwarding of resolutions in this House that relate to federal policy or actions is one which is a long standing one. I would have to consult with the Clerk in terms of the timing because usually these resolutions , I believe, are forwarded as a block if there be more than one, soon after the end of a session, but in this context there is some necessity of despatch, so I shall consult with the Clerk. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the First Minister in his capacity as Minister of Finance, and would ask him if the Manitoba Government has done an assessment on the ef fect of the Budget which we passed here as far as the Consumer Price Index is concerned? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the effe ct on the Consumer Price Index is , given the nature of the taxation that is involved, is more difficult to assess than if we were to have passed some increase in the retail sales tax, all of which is of direct impact to the cost of living index, as the Honourable Member for La Verendrye would know. On the other hand, a tax that is levied on income is not deemed, according to Statistics Can ada, .as having any direct impact on the cost of living. But then again there is an indirect ef fect and that is diff icult to quantify.

Therefore, the answer is, no we do not have any calculus as to the impact on the cost of living of taxes that are other than sales taxes or direct product taxes, such as in the case of motive fu el, etc. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation and CUltural Affairs . I wonder can the Minister advise the House if he 's had any meetings with the Secretary of State regarding this new cultural offensive that he 's supposedly launching to rescue the film and the television and the publishing industries from U.

S.A. domination in Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. MR. TOUPIN: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. I wonder if he can advise whether his department or he himself has examined the status of Steve Badger with regard to being a representative for Canada in the Olympic Games in view of the fact that he is a resident of Manitoba and is doing his practicing here in Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, I did not personally investigate this myself while being responsible for organized sports. My colleague, the Minister of Health and Social Development, who is now responsible, could have , and I'll take the question as notice on his behalf. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways . HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minis ter of Highways) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, yesterday and the day before the Honourable Member for Brandon East was wondering about the eastbound lane on the Trans-Canada Highway. I have the --(Interjection)- Pardon? It could be the opposite, too.

I would like to give this information to the honour able member, that the paving contract on this portion of the Trans-Canada Highway was not finished in the last fiscal year. There is still some work to be done and the contractor will be completing this part of the work as soon as he brings in the plant into operation.

:}638 May 12, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. BURTNIAK cont'

d) The surface in question is where the light lift of asphalt, which was placed last year to enable the traffic to use the eastbound lane in that particular portion, for the new lanes, the existing lanes, and because of the light lift of asphalt there is some spalling occurring which will be repaired under the present contract, with no additional cost, I might point out. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker, to the Honourable, the Minister of Highways, I thank him for that information, and would ask if, in his view, there has been any premature failure of this road surface and if so, has this been investigated? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. BURTNIAK: No, Mr. Speaker, there was no premature wearing off or damage of the highway because the thing was not completed in the first place.

We've allowed the traffic to use that lane because, as the member knows, the traffic is rather heavy so the contractor agreed and we permitted traffic to use that lane but knowing full well that when the contractor moves in with his plant for this year's program, to continue last year's program this year, then that will be completed properly. So I don't want the member to take the position that that was completed and all of a sudden it just broke up all to pieces. That is not the case.

It was not completed the way it should be as yet and we were aware of it, at least the department was as well as the contractor, and that'll be looked after as soon as the plant is installed in that spot. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister. Did an invitation go out to more than one contractor this spring to do the work which is now necessary on this strip? MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker, the contractor - there was no need for that because the contractor on a bid basis last year, the contractor that was there last year was the successful bidder and he's going to complete the work.

I think it's as simple as that. There's no need for another tender to go out. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. Did the Minister request the schools throughout Manitoba to fly their Manitoba Flag in a prominent position today being Manitoba.'s birthday? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): Yes, Mr. Chairman, in our handbook today's date is highlighted and teachers are reminded to observe it accordingly. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. c. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environment Management)(Inkster): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if we can now proceed to the adjourned debates on second reading in the order in which they appear on the Order Paper. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Bill 37. The Honourable Member for Arthur. Bill 44. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR� L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill 46. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry._ MR. SHERMAN: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill 58. (Stand) Bill 60.

The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Beg the indulgence to have this matter stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill 62. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. (Stand) 63. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. (Stand) 64. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. (Stand) Bill 65. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie is absent. Does the Honourable House Leader wish me to proceed with introduction of second readings ?

May 12, 1976 3639 OIIDERS OF THE DAY MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Urban Affairs that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER: Before we do, and I put the motion, the Honourable Member for Flin Flon have a desire to speak? MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): By leave, Mr. Speaker, may I make a • MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Let me put the motion then you can take your message.

MOTION presented and caxried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARROW: Gimli with the Honourable MR. SPEAKER: COMMITTEE CHANGES The Honourable Member for Flin Flon with his message. By leave, Mr. Speaker, may I substitute the Member from Minister of Public Works on Law Amendments? Very well. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY DEPARTMENT OF COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AFFAffiS MR. CHAffiMAN: of their Estimates Book. Grants Commission in the Fort Garry. Order, please.

I would refer Honourable Member to Page 15 Discussion is continuing on Resolution No. 33, Universities sum of $85,095,200--Pass. The Honourable Member for MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, when we rose in Committee last night we had been looking at the University budget for the coming year. I had made the point to the Minister that in order to achieve the balanced budget that the University of Manitoba has struck for the current fiscal year 1976-77 that a sum close to $2 million had been removed from the budget base, $1.9 million to be exact.

It's my understanding that the reduction was accomplished through reductions in staff, supplies, expense budgets and perhaps some other peripheral areas of activity, and I was attempting to ascertain from the Minister just what the content and extent and ramifications of those cuts were. I appreciate, Mr. Chairman, that in the view of the Minister and his colleagues that any attempt to get at answers to questions of that kind provides them with the opportunity to suggest that we are implying on this side that we want to see an invasion or an intrusion of university autonomy. I want to assure the committee, Mr.

Chairman, that we are not arguing for intrusions or invasions of university autonomy, I simply wanted to know whether the Minister, as the Minister, could tell us what is involved for the biggest university under his aegis, under his off ice, in a $1.9 million reduction in the budget base.

I recognize also, Sir, though that there is a perfect cover available to this government, or to any government, when it comes to a question of detailed budgeting, detailed decision-making where a university is concerned, because we are in that grey area of autonomy and the question of whether the university should be permitted to remain as free as possible in those areas of decision. I think we're all agreed in this House, basically, that that principle should be respected. That wherever possible and insofar as possible the autonomy of the university be respected and be preserved. So I acknow ledge, Mr.

Chairman, that we tread on dangerous and difficult ground, and as I say we move into a grey area when we attempt to get at questions of this kind, I can only assume after having gone through this last year with the Minister and having gone through it last night with the Minister, that I'm not going to get the answers to that question, so I'll simply leave it on the record that I would like to know what is involved in terms of that budget reduction and whether it will hSN'e serious effects and ramifications for my university and for the Minister's university and for the university of everybody in this House and in this province, namely, the University of Manitoba.

3640 May 12, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (1\ffi. SHERMAN cont'

d) If the Minister can assure me that the best financial rationalization has been brought to bear and that he is satisfied and has produced his balanced budget without any diminution in the standard of excellence and opportunity at the university, then I will have to I suspect, Sir, be satisfied with that answer for the next year, and I'll perhaps raise the issue again on next year's Estimates and see if the Minister can provide some more intimate information where the affairs of the university and where the level of excellence at the university may be involved.

But, Sir, just before leaving the subject, I would like to refer to the difficulties that the Unversity of Manitoba underwent last year at the time of the Support Services Strike and to the references and suggestions in many quarters and certainly from this caucus last year, that as a consequence of that strike that there we;re unfortunate things happening, unfortunate from the point of view of the university's own ability to perfo l'lll and maintain the standard of excellence it had achieved in a number of disciplines and areas, there was some danger that some national research grants were going to be lost because National Research Council projects funded through federal grants were impaired and in fact stalled by the work stoppages at that time.

So I would ask the Minister whether he can advise the House without invading that admittedly important and sacred area of university autonomy, advise the House what the overall results of that strike may have been. Has there been a loss of any research grants, of any funding of that kind? Has there been a cutback in research work on the campus ? Has there been any kind of impairment or reduction of graduate studies work on the campus? Or has the university been able to weather the crisis occasioned by that strike without losses and without impairments of this kind? At the same time, Mr.

Chairman, I would appreciate if the Minister could give us some idea of the scope of the school of graduate studies and the range of graduate work on the University of Manitoba campus, and indeed on the campuses of all four Manitoba universities. Is there a growth in graduate work? Is there a growth in graduate enrollment? Is there an attraction for students from other parts of the continent, and indeed other parts of the world, to come to Manitoba or Winnipeg or Brandon or St. Boniface and pursue graduate studies in specific disciplines here.

I think that the calibre and the status and the reputation of any post-secondary institution depends in some measure, not by any means in majority measure but in some measure to the kind of recognition and attraction that it occupies in that field, and I would be interested in know ing whether there is an emphasis on development of the capacity of Manitoba universities to meet requirements and meet ambitions in the graduate field, and whether special attention is being paid in the development of the universities to expansions of that role. 1\ffi. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. 1\ffi.

HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, with respect to the introductory comments that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry made, I'm not quite certain whether he was making them by way of question - I don't believe he was - but all I could say at this point in time is repeat the comment that I made last night, that the University of Manitoba in the course of preparing its budget, I am quite satisfied, had exercised maxi mum care in seeing to it that the quality of the education program that it is charged with delivering would not in any way deteriorate, and which are principles of good sound business management of an educational institution.

In reply to his question with respect to the effect that the strike may have had, last spring's strike on research activity at the university, my information is that there has been no adverse effect upon it in terms of any cutback in grants or the like. Insofar as graduate studies at the University of Manitoba, and universities in general are concerned, I could reply that there is a gradual increase and growth in the post-graduate studies field. The exact numbers I cannot give the honourable member at this time.

Had I known - well no even if I had known that he was going to ask this question, had been able to anticipate it, I don't think that I would have wanted to go into those details because that information is available I'm certain in the Universities Annual Reports, which have been tabled in the House, which gives an enrollment breakdown and

May 12, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (1\ffi. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• the faculty by faculty, and it shows comparative statistics of the kind that the honourable member was asking for at the post-graduate level. 3641 1\ffi. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 33. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. 1\ffi. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, in the consideration of this Universities Grants Commission estimate, I was interested in one of the bits of information provided by the Minister in his original presentation on Colleges and University Affairs.

He mentioned that the Universities Grants Commission had held a meeting, I believe, with the three universities involved and I was wondering if this was a kind of new arrangement or format, whether these meetings between the university and the University Grants Commission were being designed for a regular kind of review of the financial requirements of the universities in discussion with the Grants Commission and whether or not this has always been part of the procedure in the past.

I took it from the fact that the Minister gave us this information that if such a meeting had been held that it was new and there was no comment as to whether or not this was to be a continuing and regular discussion between the Commission and the universities. 1\ffi. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities. 1\ffi . HANUSCHAK: This is part of the regular practice of the operations of the Universities Grants Commission that from time to time it meets with all universities at a joint meeting; for other' purposes it may meet with each university separately. 1\ffi. McGILL: Well then, Mr.

Chairman, are these meetings held on a regular basis monthly or are they annually, or how is this carried out? 1\ffi. HANUSCHAK: On an ad hoc basis, Mr. Chairman, as the need for same may arise. 1\ffi. CH AIRMAN: Resolution 33. Resolved that there be granted - the Honour able Member for Radisson. 1\ffi. SHAFRANSKY: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday I brought up the case of the tuition fees going up in the universities of Ontario, and I indicated that I heard it hinted that it was so, however, I did not have the particular newspaper clippings I was able to find today which makes reference to this increase which was announced by the Minister of Universities and Colleges of Ontario. I'd like to read the particular clipping to show the attitude that the Ontario Conservatives are taking in regard to the visa students. This is a story in the Globe and Mail, Wednesday, May 5th.

"College Fees For New Foreign Students To Triple, " is the headline, written by Robert Williamson. "Fees are being tripled for foreign students enrolling in Ontario colleges and universities. Effective next January universities students' fees that are now $585 for a two-term academic year will rise to $750 for each term, or $1,500 for the two terms. Increases for foreign students in colleges of Applied Arts and Technology will effect this September." That's this coming September. "Existing fees of $250 for a two-term academic year will jump to $750.

The increases were announced yesterday by Harry Parrott, that is on May 4th, Minister of Colleges and Universities. Now the Minister has calculated that $2 million will be saved during the first year." And the Honourable Member for Lake side talked about national boundaries being established, nationalistic policies. Well there is one province that is taking this particular position. "This will grow to $6 million a year once the increase applies to all foreign students in post-secondary system. The· higher fees will apply only to foreign students beginning programs for the first time in September and January.

Students who have completed one or more terms will continue to pay - that's the present students, as was the case in UBC - the present students will still continue attending the universities but there are new rules applied to new students which have to have a baccalaureate degree or equivalent in the University of British Columbia. "Now for students who have completed one or more terms, will continue to pay the same fees as Canadian citizens and landed immigrants, a situation expected to contin ue until January 1980 or until they have finished current programs of study.

Students from other provinces will not be affected by the fee change. Other exemptions include children of diplomats, and so on, Dr. Parrott told that" - this is an interesting point - "that exemptions will include children of diplomatic and counsellor officials admitted to

3642 May 1 2, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. SHAFRANSKY cont'd) • • • . Canada under terms of the Immigration Act and dependent of those temporarily in Canada for professional or trade work. " So those people are not going to be affected but just new visa students. Those who could least afford it will be the ones that will be hit hardest. ''Dr. Parrott told the Legislature that there had been mounting public concern over the extent of taxpayers' support for foreign students. He also tied the move with the minority government's drive to restrain spending.

" Just as they moved in Ontario to restrain spending on health of the people by closing hospitals, and that is a very very progressive attitude that the Honourable Member for Lakeside would support wholeheartedly. "The move was later denounced by the Ontario Federation of Students. Our suspicion is that these enormous increases satisfy the government's political desire to appear to be cracking down on foreigners, making no progress whatsoever in the relief of taxes borne by individuals, the Federation said in a statement.

The Federation suggested that the move smacked of racism, terming it a massive surtax on foreign students that puts Canada with the United States and Britain in a select group openly discriminating against foreign students. 11 Now the First Minister indicated to the members last night about the policy which has been adopted for a long period of time in the United States, the various states of the United States, where they do have a higher tuition fee requirement for students coming in and the only bases that they can qualify is that if they get support from the Foreign Aid Budget and the State Department.

And that has to be by special application. That's what he says, that's what I advocate as stated that there should be some rationali zation. ''Dr. Parrott told reporters that even at the new rates more than 60 percent of the cost of educating a foreign student still are being borne by taxpayers. It costs an average of about $5,000 a year to educate one university student, he said. Statistics indicate that there are about 9,500 students in Ontario universities and about 2,200 in community colleges. This new policy is not intended to recover for Ontario the full cost of educating some of our students.

" However, you can interpret it that the new policy as it is in British Columbia, as it is in Alberta, is to prevent that type of support which we are, I feel, morally obligated to help those countries in the Third World to have educational opportunities which they do not have within their own country. ''However, it establishes in the province a situation similar to that faced by many Canadian students studying in other countries 't' Now he tried to qualify it. Now, Mr.

Chairman, this concern that I raised yesterday, I'm very happy to see that the First Minister also got up to speak on this matter and that he also advocated and urged the Minister of Colleges and Universities to institute or to initiate that type of discussion at the Council of Ministers with the appropriate federal body. Now, Mr. Chairman, yesterday the Minister got up and I rather resented his patronizing manner. I did not indicate in any way that the universities of Canada do not benefit. You know, he told us that the idea of mix of various people from all .IRrts of the world is beneficial. I realize that.

I realize that, but I say that is not the question, I did not indicate that that was not so, and I did not oppose it in any way. So I say, you can be patronizing, Mr. Minister, to the opposition who have no understanding and have no policy, and it's understandable, but I do not care to have the patronizing attitude expressed towards me because I did express a concern and you can educate them but not tell me that the idea of mixing students from other countries is beneficial. I realize that it is. --(Interjection)-- Pardon? No, Mr.

Chairman, while admonishing the Minister, I wish to at the same time state that I do have confidence, I believe that he has been the best Minister this province has known. I believe that he is the hardest working, and he's certainly most qualified, more qualified than any other minister than I'm aware of to be in charge of this department. I say I feel very very friendly towards him but at the same time I don't feel restraints on criticizing him when he chooses to be patronizing. As a matter of fact, I was the one who signed him up for the New Demo·cratic Party.

I convinced him of the merits of this party somewhere about twelve years ago; I talked him into joining the New Democratic Party. So, Mr. Chairman, when I talk this way, I

May 12, 1976 3643 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. SHAFRANSKY cont'd) • • • • feel I can do it because I was the one that signed him up as a member of the New Democratic Party and 'I think he has benefited and Mani toba has benefited for that matter. Thank you. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable -Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Well Mr. Chairman, I didn't want to re-enter the debate but obviously the remarks of the Honourable Member for Radisson just can't go passing.

First, if he feels somewhat hurt because the Minister chooses to take a patronizing attitude to him from time to time, he must have with some compassion a feeling that members on the opposite side have with the attitude that the Minister takes toward us; not just from time to time but all the time. Secondly, there is that distinct preaching for a call that I hear by the Member from Radisson. Does he have some information that we don't have that there may in fact be an opening in the Treasury Benches coming up fairly soon and that he is issuing forth that clarion call. Thirdly, Mr.

Speaker, we must warn the Honourable Member for Radisson, for having confessed openly in this Chamber to having signed up the Honourable Minister into the New Democratic Party, we will now in much more serious fashion, you know, concentrate on the Member for Radisson for that grave mistake that he committed twelve years ago; we'l l not let that go unnoticed, Mr. Chairman. But, Mr. Chairman, just to get back to the subject matter that obviously lies so close to. the member's heart, I simply want to indicate that we on this side probably admit defeat when we see it.

We doubt very much whether we can add any counterbalance to the obvious course that the Honourable Member from Radisson wishes to pursue, and the influence that he is going to exert on this Minister and on this government in this particular policy in respect to foreign students. After all, Mr.

Chairman, as a former whip and chairman of the government caucus we are prepared to acknowledge that the express wishes of the Member from Radisson on this question, on this policy of closing the doors to fl!lreign students likely will become government policy, and we have to accept that as a position that is being hoisted on this Minister by a determined Member from Radisson, and we are just seeing that happening here, Mr. Chairman, and we have raised a few concerns on this matter on this side but acknowledge defeat when we see it, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR.

SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Chairman, I realize the capabilities of the Honourable Member for Lakeside, and how he can twist words to suit his own lack of policy because they have no direction, they have no idea and they have no policy with regard to education.

I never advocated that we should close it, but I think that there should be a realization of the imbalance that can be created and borne by the people of Manitoba, and the people of Saskatchewan and the people of Ontario, the rich Ontario escaping the proper propor tion of the cost which as stated yesterday we are normally bound to support and I feel that we should continue. But I don't think it would be fair for the member to try to twist my words, even in the papers it indicates by a very ingenius manner he tried to twist the whole topic of discussion.

That is his, as I mentioned, the snake oil conservative manner which he is adept at using. MR. CHAffiMAN: Now the Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman. I think that the debate which has taken place for the past fifteen minutes is merely indicative of the practice of democracy as it should be practised. I think, Mr. Chairman, if one would take the time to read Hansard of last night, one would find that there is no difference of opinion as expressed by myself, by the Honourable Member for Radisson nor by the First Minister.

But before I come to that, just to set the record straight, it was just the matter of coincidence and convenience, I suppose, that the Honourable Member for Radisson and I happened to have been at the same convention at the time that he renewed my membership. --(Inter jection)-- For the first time, Mr. Chairman. Yes, he signed me up for the first time as a New Democrat. And that was back in 1961, because I was a CC Fer prior to that and had sought a nomination during one election back in the Fifties. So it goes back a

3644 May 12, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • • • • few years prior to that. But, Mr.

Chairman, I think all I wish to indicate, and perhaps some of the information which the Honourable Member for Radisson brought to the attention of the committee this afternoon merely re-emphasizes the point that was made last night, the desirability to, No. 1, assist the Third World; No. 2, the mutual advantages to having a certain proportion of the stndents from foreign lands in any university, the benefits to be gained by both; and No. 3, that points to the matter that if anything need be done, then appropriate action can only be taken at the federal level and that the answer to the prob lem is not one of a province taking unilateral action by the establishment of a two-tier tuition fee system.

I also would like to bring to your attention, Mr. Chairman, that the Council of Education Ministers of Canada is aware of this concern. In fact this very day - an:l this is the reason why the Deputy Minister of Colleges and Universities Affairs is not with us, because he is attending a meeting of Deputy Ministers of Canada which does do the preliminary preparatory work in preparing the agenda for the Council of Education Ministers, and that this is an item that the Council of Education Ministers will be considering at its next regular meeting. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 33 -Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $85, 095, 200 for Colleges and Universities--pass. Resolution 34 - Opportunities for Human Development (

a) Student Aid

(1) Salaries, $392,600. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, again in the introductory remarks the Minister was explaining the new procedure in respect to Stndent Aid, and we note the diff erence in the appropriation for this particular amount. I think that probably this results from the switching of the plan this year when there will be Canada Student Loans provided, and so I would expect that next year it will show a sizeable increase - or is it a three-year program over which we will realize the full impact of the revolving plan here?

I think the Minister might explain this in a little more detail. He's gone through using individual stndents as an example of how they will be treated in their first year, but from a casual consideration of the Estimates one might assume that we had cut this amount by some 11 millions of dollars. What will be the situation next year when these Estimates are presented? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr.

Chairman, last year I raised the question of what was the prerequisites of students applying for bursaries and I was given various forms that applicants must fill out in order to determine whether they qualify for the bursaries. Well, Mr. Chairman, I would wish to suggest that the bursaries as now being applied to tuition fees at the colleges and at the universities, at least in the first year should be universally applied by elimination of tuition fees. I know that the present system where students apply for bursaries, in my opinion, is not equitable.

I am aware of at least one member's family having received, members of this House, in fact there were two children who received bursaries. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not know what the actual criteria for income of the parents must be, but I am aware that at least one member of this House, his family qualified for bursaries, and I don1t object to that. If they qualified, that is fine.

But I'm aware of other people who are in no differe nt financial circumstances, in fact I feel sometimes they might be in a worse financial situation, whose children have applied for bursaries for tuition fees to the community colleges and to the university, who did not qualify. Now I don't think that it is very equitable. One case is my own brother whose son applied for a bursary, and I know for a fact that his financial situation is not better than a particular member of this House, yet he did not qualify, and I can't understand how that works.

His son was 18 years old and was working and he had not earned that much money, but he applied for a bursary, he was not allowed. So, Mr. Chairman, if this is going to be the system used I would say that we ••• and I understand that the bursaries amount to some $15 million which are being given out to various students throughout the province. I've also enquired and found out that the total tuition costs for first year university and community college tuition costs for the first year amounts to some $15 million. I would advocate that we

May 12, 1976 3645 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. SHAFRANSKY cont'd) • • • • should establish on a universal base, the elimination of tuition fees starting with the first year of university, and at the colleges, the equivalent of a year's education, .rut it on the same basis. I don't know what the actual tuition fees are at the community colleges. I am aware of what tm tuition fees are at the universities. But I am told that the amount of bursaries received by students is equivalent to about the cost of what the tuition fees are for first year, some where around $15 million. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would advocate and suggest to the Minister that he should look at the possibility of establishing a universal application to the entrance to universities. You know, th ere might be some fears that suddenly there's going to be a flood of applicants - I think that the universities still establish the criteria for entrance, and if they qualify, well then they are entitled to it. Other countries of the world have eliminated university tuition right through. I would advocate that the present system of providing student loans should be continued. That's a different matter.

I had applied for a student loan at one time when I went to Teachers College and I had to repay it. I know that what I paid as part of tuition was nowhere near the actual cost of teacher training at the old Normal School, I realize that. However, we also realize that the present tuition fees that the students pay nowhere meet the total cost of educating a student for a year. However, I think we should begin to look at the universal application of tuition fees starting with the first year, gradually working up to the degree level and maybe further on.

Just as we have applied universal plans to Medicare, we have applied the universal system to Pharmacare where a person today pays the first $50.00 and then gets 80 percent, anything above the $50.00. I would advocate that we establish the total elimination, a universal plan in the first year of university. I do not agree with the system that we used in the Old Age Pensioner Home Repair Program. I think that this should have been applied universally. You know, we did have a qualification.

If a person earned a certain income, if you were $1.00 above that maximum, then you didn't qualify, so I would advocate that that should have been applied on a universal basis. However, that was not the case. So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to hear the Minister's comments on this matter and hope that this is something that we could look forward to and establish in the Province of Manitoba, at least in the first year's university, and the first year's equivalent in the community colleges, and then work it up. Who's going to pay for it? A MEMBER: Don't be patronizing. MR. SHAFRANSKY: I paid for all of mine.

I never applied for any kind of bursaries outside of that loan which I had to repay when I went to Teachers College. I never applied for any bursaries even though I was qualified. I just thought that I could work and earn the money. So, today I say I don't like to see this plan where our students - I've had a student come to me and say, "Work for me, I want a bursary." I said, ''Well, what did you do?" Well, he spent two months in Europe. I said, ''Well, why didn't you work? You want another bursary." I said, "Go and work like the rest of us." I'm not fond of that system.

I'd sooner see the elimination of tuition fees starting with the first year then•�continuing right up to the ·degree and further up if necessary • .MR •. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK Q. C. (River Heights): Mr. Chairman, I just would like to ask a question of the Member from Radisson, without dealing on the merits of his proposal at this time. I wonder if he could indicate to us what programs he would eliminate to be able to pay for the program he's just proposed? MR. SHAFRANSKY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the program that I would eliminate it is my tmderstanding that the present bursary system of giving bursaries to students in the first year, second year, third year, is equivalent to somewhere around $15 million, and that is the equivalent to the cost of present tuition fees of the first year at the university, and equivalent at the community colleges. So you eliminate bursaries altogether, but you continue the loan program, that's what I advocate.

3646 May 12, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. SHAFRANSKY cont'd) ••••• So there is no change in the program in any way, just simply a change in the fact that the bursaries will be eliminated and there'll be no tuition fees. MR. CHAJRMAN: The Honourable Minister of rcolleges and Universities. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, in answer to the Honourable Member for Brandon West, he is quite correct, that by maximizing the student loan money by our bursary remission scheme, that the net savings will decrease year by year.

This year it's at its maximum being the first year, and this will continue to reduce until it'll balance out in about 1982-83, about five years. If I may respond to the Honourable Member for Radisson, firstly I wish to point out that our Student Aid Program does not discriminate against the dependants of members of the Legislative Assembly. If a son or a daughter of a member of this House applies, and on the basis of the information provided by him as it is checked out by our staff it is found that he is eligible for a student aid, he receives student aid.

Now, it's probably --(Interjection)-- Well, I'm glad that the Honourable Member for. Radisson clarified that point. You know, Mr. Chairman, I've received many calls and letters, and in conversations, meeting with people, indicating to me why does so and so's son or daughter receive a bursary, a student loan, l!lld mine didn't and I'm convinced that my neighbor is earning more money than I am, his income is higher than mine. Well, it's not that easy to make such a comparison. One does not know what the income of his neighbor may be.

He may be a self-employed businessman or a farmer, one has no knowledge of the expenditures that he may be incurring in the operation of his business. You know, what may appear on the surface to be a very lucrative business or farming operation may not in fact be all that lucrative.

Even attempting to compare incomes or salaries of wage earners, even of those whose salaries are publicly known or commonly known, whose salaries are perhaps published in the press ••• It's probably a relatively simple m·atter to determine reasonably accurately what a salary of a school teacher may be in any school division; the salary schedules are public knowledge, frequently they're published in the press in advertising for teachers, and if one knows the approximate classification a teacher may fall into, the number of years of teaching experience, that indicates that salary that he earns.

But one does not know what allowable expenditures that individual may have; there may be dental expenses, there may be a whole host of expenses unknown, to his neighborhood.

I want to assure you, Sir, that our staff does in fact, over and beyond just reviewing the applications, if it's at all in doubt as to the absolute accuracy of the information contained therein, the applicant may be interviewed personally or further information may be sought from him or from his parents in order to verify the information that's contained in the application to satisfy ourselves that the applicant's level of need, to determine the exact level of need of the :applicant. That's on one side of the coin. On the other side of the coin, Mr.

Chairman, I want to draw to your attention, if any applicant feels that his application did not receive fair consideration, that he was denied the level of support that he feels that he is entitled to, there is a Student Aid Review Board before which he may appear and have his application reviewed by it, and if the Review Board recommends an adjustment, well that adjustment is made. So, there is that protection for the Student Aid applicant. The bursary level of support I would like to point out to you, Mr.

Chairman, is not $15 miilion, but the actual bursary money, which is separate and apart from loan money, is in the order of $7. 8 million, and next year it will be in the order of $9 million. Now, that is correct, that is bursaries. The suggestion that tuition fees be eliminated and that that would make post secondary education more accessible to students. Well, Mr. Chairman, tuition fees account for bordering on one-fifth of the studentsl total expenditures, of our university students, or post-secondary students' total expenditures.

But, 19 percent, 19 percent, tuition 19 percent, books and supplies 6, room and board 44, laundry and clothing 27, local transportation 4 percent, and uninsured medical, dental and other exceptional expenses, less than one percent, so when we look at tuition fees we're loo king at slightly

May 12, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • • • less than one-fifth of the total expenditures of a student. There was one university in Canada, Memorial University in Newfoundland, 3647 which at one time did abolish tuition fees, but has since reinstated tuition fees. But I really do wonder, Mr.

Chairman, whether the removal of tuition fees does bring about the type of equity or equality of access to universities to all, regardless of need, that we would like to see come about, because after all that is said and done really what it would do is make access to universities more accessible, or at least it'll affect all to the same degree.

The son or daughter of the millio naire, of the rich family, as well as one of the poor family, so I really do feel that if we 're going to bring about any greater measure of equity that the route to follow is the Student Aid Group, with appropriate adjustments from year to year that have to be made in keeping with any variations in the cost of living.

Now that too is a matter that the Council of Education Ministers has been con sidering for some time, in fact it has also been looking at a proposal over in the other extreme where every student, regardless of income would receive a stipend and then the remittance would be tied in to his income that he earns after graduation. So, that 's the other extreme.

But, at the present time the general trend in Canada is to live with the Student Aid Program, not identical to ours ; I think that insofar as benefits to students are concerned ours is probably more favourable than, perhaps I could safely say most favourable to students, but certainly more favourable than most in Canada. The suggestion that an effort should be made in the field of student employment, or greater effort should be made, is certainly a worthwhile one, and in fact I would want to indicate to the committee, Mr.

Chairman, that in preparing our Estimates for the year 1977-78 that is a factor that we are keeping in mind, and that is to devise a plan which would encourage those students in a position to do so, and to take advantage of whatever summer or part-time employment opportunities that there would be and thus provide for their post-se condary education. Now, you know, having said that I'd be the first to admit, Mr.

Chairman, that there, as in any program, there might be some slight leakage somewhere, there's leak age in our Income Tax program, there's leakage in the Unemployment Insurance program, leakage in many programs, and I'm sure that the Student Aid is no different, but I would want to point out that if we would want to police the Student Ai d program to the point where there would be absolutely no leakage whatsoever, then the administration and the policing costs may far exceed the benefits derived from it by the student.

But, you know, we're satisfied that if there is any leakage that it is at a very very minimal level. So that being so, Mr. Chairman, one may find a student who may be in receipt of a few dol lars more than someone else may feel that he is entitled to, but I would hasten to add in the same breath, Mr.

Chairman, that with the institution of a Student Aid program, and with the conduct of a Student Aid program that we now have. that that has opened the door to thousands , literally thousands of st udents to post-seco ndary Educational Institutions, to whom access otherwise would have been denied. • . • • • continued on next page

3648 May 12 , 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEG ES AND UNNERSITIES MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Radi sson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to hear that the Minister is think ing along the lines of instituting a program for the elimination of tuition fees.

He indi cated and corrected me when I stated that there was some $15 million and indicated that there was only some $7. 8 million, or approximately 19 percent, which is equivalent to about 19 percent of the total costs - pardon me, this was for bursaries - but he did not indi cate what the actual costs of Mtion for the first year is , and he indicated .that those people who are millionaire s, and so on, would not qualify. Well, Mr. Chairman, it does not really worry me, because they would no longer be able to use tuition fees as a deduct ible item from taxable income. That would be eliminated.

So they would pay income tax; it would be put back on the ability-to-pay principle and you wouldn't have to change any forms. I know myself, I was able to claim the tuition fees from my taxable income. So if you eliminate tuition fees it's just simply that is an amount that you cannot deduct. So the question of the support that is given under the present system, there's no argument about it that it has been a help to many students entering universities. But, I also indic ated that I do not advocate that you eliminate the loan portion of it.

Students could still apply for a loan and I believe it would certainly remove a lot of the bureaucracy which is involved in the present system dealing with the bursary syst em; that would reduce the total costs and if it's for a loan application, I know it's a very sim ple matter .- -(Interjection)--Well, I don't know. But, Mr. Chairman, as I've indicated, I'm glad to hear that the Minister is looking in this direction and that we can see a day, in fact I would like to see it happening this year, this fall , that the tuition fees be elimi nated.

And the Minister did not indi cate what the tuition costs are for the first year university or the equivalent to community colleges. Can you give me those figures ? MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman , at the present time they range from a low of $345 .0 0. Well, one could take that number and multiply it by 3, 000- 3, 500 and that would give the total, or an average perhaps somewhere between 345 and 625 , which is the first year tuition fee for medicine .

Insofar as the elimination of tuition fees is concerned, I've in dicated that that has been tried in Newfoundland and reinstituted. I have in dicated that - well one could go from the having of tuition fees to elimination of tuition fees, from a Student Aid program as we now have, to a stipend for all students, and I did indicate that we would prefer to remain with a program very similar to ours and with whatever changes could be brought about to encourage students to seek part-time employment and take maximum opportunities that there may be during the summer months for summer employment.

Now, would the elimination of the bursary portion of the Student Aid program reduce the staff that one must employ? I really would doubt very much because the manner in which the program is set up, it's a bursary-loan mix, and the first $400, yes the first $400 of Student Ai d is loan ed, and once the student's level of needs exceeds $400 that it becomes a bursary and loan mix. So really , I don't think, Mr.

Chairman, that it ••• you know, the am ount of work is still going to be the same to assess the application , and I'm sure that it doesn't take that much more time to add a column of figures that may result in the level of need in the excess of $400, than to add a column of figures that results in the level of need below $40 0. 00. So I do not really see that this would reduce the staff requirements of that signific antly. It may, to some extent, but not that significant. MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J.

EINARSON (Rock Lake) : I wanted to pose a question but before I do, in the comments that the Member for Radisson made this afternoon I have been won dering whether the government has ceased to hold their caucus meetings to discuss these problems within their own group. Secondly , whether it's that, or whether there' s other reasons, I don't know, and whether the member is desperately seeking publicity for his constituents. However, Mr.

Chairman, the question that I would like to pose to the Minister is this, and I understand that the Member for Radisson was making somewhat of a com plaint as to whose son or daughter should receive a bursary, acco rding to wealth of his

May 12, 1976 3649 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. EINARSON cont'd) ••••• or her parents. Now this government reduced the age of majority from 21 to 18 and when a boy or girl reaches the age of 18 they are an adult, and in some case, in many cases probably they are on their own and no longer dependent upon their parents. The question I want to pose to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, is that this being the case, does it make any diffe rence how wealthy the parents if a boy or girl, say, is 19 years of age and are going to seek for bur sary to attend a univ ersity or college? MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities. MR. HANUSCHAK: If I may reply to the Honourable Member for Rock Lake.

Student Aid applicants fall in two categories, which we call Group A and Group B status, and I believe that that is desc ribed - it must be described and defined in the handbook that is contained in the Student Application kit - and the honourable member is quite correct that a student who is of the age of majority can have independent status, and once having acquired independent status then it becomes irrelevant how wealthy his parents may have been then his application is treated solely on the basis of his own personal income and expenditures that he incurs, the one enjoying independent status. In fact, Mr.

Chairman, I've just been reminded that even age is not a criterion, the criteria are: You are mar ried, you have been a fu ll-time member of the labour force for two 12 month periods, each period must be 12 months in duration, but the two 12 month periods need not have been consecutive, and you may have worked for more than one employer; you have com pleted three years of post-secondary education, and in addition you have been a full-time member of the labour force for a period of 12 consecutive months, so that would, well that would take care of the Grade 12 student who has been out in the labour force for a year; you have completed four years of post-secondary education; you are a single parent.

So those are the criteria for Group B status. So in those cases the income of the parent of the Group B student is not ta.."ken into account. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to allay the fears that the Honourable Member for Rock Lake indicated that I was complaining. I was not complain ing, I was simply pointing out what appeared to some people who brought the attention to me of inequities, Now the Minister indicated what the criteria is as far as the bursary applications, and I have no quarrel with that.

And in the other case of stating, is it my intention to gain some publicity ? It was not my intention, it is a concern, it is something that I have talked about within caucus with the members, and it's something that I feel - and I'm surprised that the Honourable Member for Lakeside has never brought up - it has been part of the New Democratic Party policy resolutions that have been promoted at con ventions , and it's something that I'm expressing publicly what we have discussed within, in the caucus , and I feel that it warrants discussion, that type of consideration that we should all look at, MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, in listening to the Minister's remarks, I have to think of the position that I've taken on this over the years, and it keeps coming back to me every time I meet with people in my constituency, and that is the fact that the government shouldn't be passing out bur saries hardly at all. Bursaries should be given by local organizations such as legions, the Elks Club, or the Knights of Columbus, or any of these differen t clubs that want to award it to a child of a parent that belongs in their organization or something like this.

When you start giving out these bursaries you 've got an awful lot more administration, and there is no use you telling me that you haven't because that's where you come down to assessing your students on a different basis, and it's got to cause a lot more of your problems. It also causes a lot more ill feelings out in the rural areas, where some people get it and some don't. I still say that if your education program is good, why can't you make loans on a more generous basis so as the students can get them.

You don't need to narrow it down so much; if their education is good for them and they really want it, give them the loan and then they pay it back and you get the revolving fund going and you're doing good; and if this education is good for the student and he's sincere, he'll be able to pay it back, In this way you can be much

3650 May 12, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNNERSITIES (MR. HENDERSON cont'd) • • • • • more generous with it and not handing out bursaries on the basis of need all the time. Let them get the loan on the basis of need, not the bursaries on the basis of need, because you 're still going back to where you are discour aging people from being thrifty and trying to have some money set by - and even for the parents , because they aren't thrifty. This is the attitude it portrays, and I'm very dis turbed about it.

I feel that other members must be getting the same feedback from your constituency, but you fellows have got more people on it and you're just afraid of losing a few votes if you oppose this-thing, because you've got a lot of your people there that are trying to get in and get bursaries, and you don't want to rap them over the knuckles. --(Interjection)--You're looking for votes on that program, thinking that, here you are, helping the underprivileged again, but what you're doing is encouraging another bunch who aren't trying to provide or look after themselves, and I'm against it.

I hear it all the time from my constituency, I'm sure you hear the same darn thing, only you haven't got the guts to get up and cut it out. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities Affairs. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman , I'm sure that you and I and other honour able members of this committee can recall full well the numbers of students who were able to aff ord to attend a post-secondary institution in the days when perhaps the major source of student aid may have been assi stance from service clubs and the like.

And as far as loans are concerned, if one were to give entire student aid in the form of loans , the _p roblem with that is, is the one least able to pay, the one in the worst financial posi tion during university and most likely would be in the worst financial position upon gradua tion because he would not have any source of financial assistance to rely on to get him self established, would be the one hardest hit. Even going on the basis of - at the present time, the maximum total level of support, bursary and loans, is $3, 200.

But for the moment, let's consider that that be the maximum loan that a student be able to be eligible for. --(Interjection)--I'm sorry • • • MR . HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, he's talking about the maximum amount. I'm saying you can raise the loan. What's wrong with raising the loan and making it more so that the student can still take his course? I'm not saying that the underprivileged shouldn't be able to get it, I'm saying, give them money to get it and let him pay it back afterwards. MR . HANUSCHAK: So we raise the maximum, Mr.

Chairman, to whatever the figure would be, perhaps even set no maximum, and loan the student whatever money that he feels that he's entitled to to put himself through university. And that is the one who's going to graduate from university and walk out saddled with a 10, 12, $15, 000 loan hanging over his head and commencing his profession, whatever job it may be, at the bottom rung of the pay scale in his particular occupation, faced with other expenditures that a young person has to make in getting himself started in life, and on top of that be saddled with the loan for the cost of his university education.

I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, that that is not the direction in which we would want to move at this particular time, be it this govermnent, or any government for that matter. The Honourable Member for Pembina says that our Student Aid Program dis courages thrift. Well I want to point out to him that in asses sing a student's level of need, summer earnings are taken into account. The honourable member is contradicting him self.

If he has money in the bank, then obviously he has ways and means of paying for his tuition as opposed to the one who doesn't, so summer earnings are taken into account and he is expected to save a certain percentage of it, the amount over and above his normal living expenses during the summer months that he is expected to save toward the year's tuition. So really, Mr. Chairman, I do not feel that it can be said that our student hlrsary program discourages thrift among students. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. BARROW: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I take

part in this debate. It's been going for some time. I think a lot of the criticism has been very con structive. I notice the Member for Fort Garry is an artist at getting things going and

May 12, 1976 3651 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. BARROW cont'd) • • • • • prolongs the debate many many hours; he is lmown in sport as a needier, and he 's good at it. Mr. Chairman, we've been talking about education on the higher levels. I would like to come down to the basic levels, to the fact of the students themselves . I'm refer ring to our ''have not" students, like Metis students , students who have a little trouble at home, broken homes , little emotional difficulties - what happens to these children, where do they go and where do they end up.

My theory is , if these students can be put with some of education that will let them lead a better life, that would be more constructive than all the debate that we've had in this House up to this point. In 1965 my friends across the way had a wonderful idea when they built Frontier Collegiate School - 1965. In theory it was a good idea, that we would take native children, white children too, from all the remote areas and put them in one of our residential schools and educate these children to take their place in our society. The idea in theory was a good one, Mr. Chairman.

In 1966 we added on to that school, on to the residence part, a building that cost over $800, 000, and then we built three cot tages for lOO more students at great cost, so the capacity of the school in 1966 or '67 was 450, again a good idea, Mr. Chairman. You have the facilities , the room and the school; the only thing, we didn't have the students , instead of 450 it's now down to 90.

And these children that come to that school - I was . very closely associated with these children, my first experience with them was the kids from Manigotagan, anywhere from 13 to 21 in Grade 9, moved from their area into the Cranberry area and supposedly to adjust. The very shy Reserve children, Mr. Chairman. My job, Mr. Chairman, was the supervisor, to look after these students after school, and I had a hard time to relate to these children because they didn't trust me. They didn't believe in long debates like we have, where we debate every single point, they spoke very truthfully and very honestly.

But how I got to them was through physical contact sports, hockey, soccer, football, track and boxing. And these were the things that they excelled at, Mr. Chairman--(Interjection)- Right. Right. They complimented me, one of the parents, they said my Johnny used to get beat up once a month and now he gets beat every day since he met Mr. Barrow . But to give these kids a chance in our society, the main thing is confidence, and one way of building confidence is through sport I think; and what my thing was, was boxing. They were great kids to work with, Mr.

Chairman, the main thing was they didn't lmow anything about it and what you said was it, and I built these students up. MR. CHAffiMAN: Order please, I'm really struggling here to understand just what this debate has to do with Student Aid. MR. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, it's a form of education that I'm trying to intro duce in this House. MR. CHAffiMAN: Well, we're dealing with Salaries and dealing with Student Aid. Now if the honourable member wants to make that speech that he's making now--(Inter jection)--Order please. Order. please.

I think if the honourable member wants to make that speech, he should make it perhaps in Tourism and Recreation. We're dealing now with Student Aid, Bursaries , Youth Secretariat, New Careers, Interprovincial Training, there's quite a list of things, but nowhere do I see sports or recreation here. If the honourable member wishes to speak on Student Aid, fine and dandy, but not on sports or the tone of his debate so far. MR. BARROW: I'l l pass, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, with respect to the question of bursaries and loans and student aid, there is obviously a deep cleavage between the Burrows wing and the Radisson. wing and the New Democratic Caucus , and it's interesting to see to what extent it may shake the very foundation of the party, including the thinking of the Member for ChUrchill who seems to be disinterested in the point at issue - but despite his unhap piness , we'll have to persist anyway.

I appreciate the comments the Member for Flin Flon brings to bear in the House in all of his contributions, but I disagree with him when he makes references to the desirability of short debates, or the undesirability of lengthy debates . He made a reference

3652 May 12, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) • • • • to his communication with students, and he said that he found they had difficulty developing any kind of appreciation or understanding for lengthy debates.

I think that in some areas that that probably is desirable, but I think that in this Chamber or any Legislative Cham ber, that we 're not involved in a production mill here and we 're debating issues in order to get at answers and in order to ensure that the people of the province and the taxpayers of the province are properly served, and if it takes some time and length to get at those answers then that's what the system is all about. Mr.

Chairman, my basic question in the area of Student Aid to the Minister - and I must confess that I side with him on the philosoiiJ.y of the bursary system, and I certainly side with him in opposition too, if he is in opposition to, and I gather that he is in opposition to free tuition at the university level. I think that's a simplis tic solution to the university students' financing problems and a simplistic solution to life .

I think where the emp hasis should be placed more heavily, as someo ne has already suggested and as the Minister has alluded to, is in providing opportunities for student employment that make it possible for students to earn the money that they need to meet the costs of their univer sity program ; and above and beyond that, I'm in favour of a well organized, well admin is tered bursary and loan system. But I'm not in favour of the concept of free university tuition in principle.

I think that it has deleterious effects in a social sense, quite apart from the fa ct that it opens up opportunities for inequities such as the Minister has described. But my main concern here on the Student Aid area, Mr. Chairman, has to do with the cutback in Student Aid appropriations that we'r e looking at, and the reasons for that cutback given by the Minister in his opening remarks which boil down to what he des cribes as a change of the bursary method, in effec t a deferment of payments . And I would ask him whether or not we're simply looking at a deferred bill here.

We're looking at an appropriation, a vote of $4. 7 million this year as compared to $1 5. 5 last year, and that looks good in the Estimates for 1976-77. That looks like a $10 million saving, a $10 million reduction but unless I'v e completely missed the mechanics of the new method that the Minister has outlined, it seems to me that's only a postponement of the evil day and that down the line the differenc e is going to have to be met and made up, and it may be by this governm ent or it may be by a government that could possibly succeed this govern ment a year or a year and a half hence.

It could be by a Progressive Conservative government, it could be by the New Democratic admin istration that's in offi ce right now, but that remains in the hands of the electorate. The point is this, that this government with this system, with these Estimates , is getting credit here for a $10 million reduction on paper, but somewhere down the line, and it may be my party or the Member for Assi niboia's party or somebody else's party that will have to pay for that two or three years hen ce.

So that's the basic question I put to the Minister, whether this is not just a deferred bill that somebody else is going to get stuck with. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of University Affairs . MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, in response to the question put by the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, I believe that I answered the question in reply to a question put by the Honourable Member for Brandon West. And I did indicate to him the answer is yes , that the net cash flow savings are going to reduce year by year and it will balance off in about '82-'83.

So this year the savings is most significant but it will reduce over the years, and in '82- '8 3 we'll be in much the same position. Just' one further comment that I would like to make with respect to our desire to do whatever we can to maximize student emplo yment opportunities - and I should also point out that despite the fac t that it may be diff icult to envisage the existence of a corporate social conscience, but I would hope that the private sector would also participate in pro viding maximum employment opportunities for students.

Because if it is possible for the public sector to arrange its operations in such a manner as to provide for employment opportunities during the summer months when there are students on the labour marke t, I feel quite confident that it's likely equally possible for the private sector to do likewise, to arrange its work activities in such a way as to increase the employment opportunities during the summer months at the tim e that the students are out in the field looking for work.

May 12, 19 76 3653 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 34(a)(

l) Salaries--pass ;

(2) Other Expenditures $330, lOO--pass ; Assi stance $4 million--pass; Youth Secretariat

(1) Salaries $1, 259, 300- pass. The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Chairman, what the Honourable Member for Flin Flon was trying to bring up is a matter that I support in his arguments . In the question of the students which are brought into such centres such as Cranberry, it becomes a very diffi cult task for the teachers to try to get the students to participate - and I don't care whether it's at the high school level or post secondary, the same situation applies. And I'd like to refer to the post-secondary.

One of the best ways and the easiest manners of establishing contact with the students is through body contact sports . Then you begin to commun icate. I've had the experience of teaching in some isolated commtmities and am aware of how you establish the type of communication , it is by participation in those types of sports with them where they can hit you and so on, then they feel that you' re no dif ferent . So I support the Honourable Member for Flin Flon's contention and ideas of how we should begin to use our facilities in the areas like Cranberry.

I also support the idea that we should use that as the mature student program , on the same basis as visa students coming to Canada to learn some of the ways to get educated in certain fields in the tmiversities of Canada and Manito ba. For the students coming from various isolated communit ies, it merely is a vehicle where they could become educated in a way in certain fi elds that they can bring back to their own isolated areas and begin to institute those type of job opportunities and other recreational attitudes, develop good healthy recreational attitudes which would be of benefit to the community. Now, Mr.

Chairman , I know you're going to try and caution me, but I am referring to education, I am referring to education. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I am just looking tmder the heading here and Youth Secretariat deals with youth concerns and encourages and assists young people to participate in the economi c and social life of Manitoba. Now I'm just wondering whether knocking other people about really concerns the Youth Secretariat. I think that the honour able member should--(Interjection)--Order plea se. The Honourable Minis ter of Colleg es and Universities Affai rs . MR . HANUSCHAK: I would suspect, Mr.

Chairm an , that the Honourable Member for Radisson is making reference to the summer education program which is conducted, and one of the places at which it is conducted is Cranberry Portage amongst a number of other commun ities . May I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that if that is a program from •• MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on Salaries. MR. HANUSCHAK: Very well, Mr. Chairm an. So we will have to abide by your ruling and allow the honourable member and others to speak on those programs whenever they wish. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Youth Secretariat, Salaries $1, 259 , 300 --pass; Other Expendi tures $419, 500--pass; Student Summer Employment $3, 070, 700. The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: I believe you brought out the fact that it is through educa tion to provide economic opportunities, and it is to such areas as the school at Cranberry Portage, which is presently under-utilized, that we should make maximum use of too loca tion.

It has the facilities for, as I understand according to the Honourable Member for Flin Flon's figures of some 400 students , that we could use that as a training centre for economic development of the people in the remote communiti es. And I would like to see this program expanded. I understand that presently there is some summer school oppor tunities for students to attend that school, but I think it could be put on a year-rotmd basis , that we utilize to the maximum those facilities which are now in place and are now being used by only 90 students. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon.

MR. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, it 's getting a little conf using, but I might just add a few words to my colleague, Mr. Chairman . It seems to me that some of the problems we have with young people today could be eradicated at this level. The Metis problem,

3654 May 12, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. BARROW cont'd) ••.•• and it's varied, I lmow the problems. What I find tough to accept is that I don't have too many answers. We look at some of the problems, Mr. Chairman. You lmow, you don't get young people sniffing glue, gas, abusing alcohol, you don't get people in good physical shape to commit suicide for no apparent reason. And it's done. The highest suicide rate is in the north, and there's some reason for it. What I'm trying to say is, let's do something about it now at that youth level, let's get these people into a program of activity.

And this doesn't only include the Minister of Education, the Minister of Social Services, it's part his baby; Tourism, he's involved, Northern Affairs, Renewable Resources, all those Ministers involved in this program. And it wouldn't be a big abuse on the budget, at least throw in $250, 000, $200,000. What I'm saying, let's have a meeting here with these Ministers, let's hammer the plan like the Honourable Member for River Heights said. He said, all you're afraid of is the amount of money that you're going to spend in the north.

Money that's spent in the next five years will make an enormous amount of difference in the following years. And I'm saying this program will do the same thing. Let's get together and have a seminar in the north with people lmowledgeable. Let's take these kids out on an outdoor program. And it's not_ a new concept, because St. James • • • has parts of it. Up in northern Ontario, they take the roughest toughest kids, and when I'm talking about tough kids, the toughest kids in that school came from Duck Bay and Camperville. And those kids came out good.

The kids that were involved in these rough tough physical contact sports are the kids that's making it today in our socie ty. And when I look at these kids from that school and try to find out how many go to university. Any? I doubt it. Or if there is, how many gradu ate? To get ahead in this society you have to have more than education, as such. You have to have the confidence to live in our society, which isn't the easiest thing to do. And what I am suggesting to you, Mr.

Chairman, is an outdoor program; a program in the bush, camping, working with logs, carpentry work, anything, let it be flexible, let them learn the fundamentals, but let them learn to live with us and we can do it; a pro gram which would install confidence in these misfits today; a program which is going to cost a few bucks now and save a million dollars later. And while I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister what is happening in confluent education? I've had a lot of complaints, I've heard people who praised it, I've heard people who condemn it. The people I talk to who have taken

part in this program are not in favour of it. I'd like to have some answers on that part of the education, Mr. Minister. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I would very much want to and like to take the time of the committee to answer the Honourable Member for Flin Flon, but you may recall, Mr. Chairman, that confluent education was part of the Department of Education and it is indeed regrettable that we cannot take the time to deal with it now because we are now on the Department of Colleges and Universities Affairs.

However, for any honourable member of this committee I would be very glad to • • • and I lmow that the confluent education program did not receive the type of debate in the House perhaps that it deserved, so I'd be very glad to arrange sometime while the House is still in session an opportunity for those members interested in the confluent education to meet and have explained to them what the program is all about and thus to enable them to become better acquainted with it. MR� CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder if the Minister could give us just a breakdown of what is involved in the summer employment program with these $3 million, just a general breakdown. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities Affairs. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, the breakdown of the $3 , 070, 000 is as follows: STEP and Government $2 ,3 81, 500; Regional Disparity $240, 000; High School Job Centres $75, 000; Handicap Program $150, 000; and the administrative costs of the entire program $224 ,000, which is roughly about seven percent of the total program. But I should point out, Mr.

Chairman, that in looking at the administrative costs it should be

May 12, 1976 3655 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • • . • borne in mind the bulk of the administrative work is done by students, so in a sense that too in itself provides summer employment for students. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairm an, with regards to the STEP program as far as the auditing of the different programs , I understand that somebody would submit a program and then if the department accepts that program ••. a number of years ago I think there was some concern expressed about the auditing of exactly where this money was going.

Is the government at present auditing the diff erent groups that are receiving the money and check ing out where the money is going to see that the proper appropriations are going to the right people and the money is not being pocketed by certain people and misus ed ? MR. HANUS CHAK: Mr. Chairman, for the forthcoming year there'll only be a STEP and Government Program , so these students will be employed in gove rnment depart ments or agencies of go vernment, as opposed to community projects and the likes. MR.

BANMAN: So what the Minister is saying then, that a number of students would be employed by the Parks Department , working for the Parks Department , some with Mines and Resources and that type of thing. MR. HANUSCHAK: That is correct. MR. CHAffiM AN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: I would like to ask the Minister, of the quarter of a million dol lars that is set aside for administration, I would assume that none of that money is for salaries, that salaries will come under item No. 1 which we have already passed. Is that correct ? MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR.

HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Chairm an, that is in this program for the conduct of the summer employment program . MR. GRAHAM: Then can the Minister tell us how much of that quarter million will be Salaries and how much will be Other Expenditures ? MR. HANUSCHAK: I do not have that information right at my fingertips , Mr. Chairman, but I will attempt to obtain the information for the honourable member. MR. CHAIRMAN: 34(b)(3) - the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: A final question, Mr. Chairman, with regards to the STEP pro gram .

Out of the $2, 381, 000, I wonder if the Minister could tell us roughly how many students will be employed through this program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities Affair s. MR. HANUSCHAK: Approximately 1,2 00 . MR. CHAffiMAN: (b)(3)--pass ; (

c) Special Projects $3, 374, 000 - the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR� McGILL: Mr. Chairman, in addition to the training of teachers for north ern communit ies, what other projects are involved here, and can we have the breakdown? The Foc us Program is also in here. I'd like to know what the appropriation is for that program as well as the others that are included. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities Affai rs . MR. HANUSCHAK: The other maj or component is Worker Training and Educa tion which fur ther breaks down into a number of programs .

The major portion of this is the field base, the Teacher Training Program that we operate. Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, when the committee next meets , because I doubt if I could get a breakdown within a mat ter of seconds and relay it for the information of the committe e. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour for Private Members ' Hour having arrived, com mittee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions , directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

3656 May 12, 1976 PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SPEAKER: The first item is Resolutions. Resolution 20 . The Honourable Minister of Public Insurance Corporation had indicated - but I guess he's not here . The question is open. QUESTION put, MOTION carried . RESOLUTION NO. 21 MR . SPEAKER: The· Honourable Member for Assiniboia . MR. PATRICK: Mr . Speaker, I'd like to move, sec onded by the Honourable Member from Virden:

WHEREAS The Highway Act or any other Act does not cover the use on the high way of vehicles known as mopeds; and

WHEREAS mopeds have under proper regulation proved to be a useful, low-cost, low-fuel, useful mode of transportation; and

WHEREAS operators of mopeds are not required to possess an operator's licence such as a motorcycle operator's licence; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the government consider the advisability of enacting a set of regulations to cover the normal road use of such vehicles and the licensing of the operators of such vehicles . AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that these vehicles be equipped with standard motorcycle safety features such as horns, lights, crashbars, speedometer, heavy-duty shock absorbers and brakes . MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia . MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I will not take much time of the House . I'll be certainly very brief because the resolution is self-explanatory.

I'm sure that the Minister of Highways is aware and perhaps knows the reason for me bringing the resolution. I'm sure he has been inundated with quite a bit of mail in respect to this item . I know some of the other Ministers have, they've told me, and I know that I have . Mr. Speaker, the moped is a motorized bicycle, similar to a small motorcycle but also has pedals as I understand. I'm sure that we are very energy conscious as well as many other people are and this is the reason why many people are turning to smaller cars and the type of vehicles that use less energy.

At the present time this is what's happening. If we are energy conscious, I think that we should perhaps look at this very seriously - if we can allow some people to use the moped vehicle as a mode of transpor tation . I'm told it 's very economical; it has a capacity of going 200 miles on a gallon of gas and is capable of speeds up to 30 to 40 miles an hour. It is my information, Mr. Speaker, that not all the mopeds are equipped with the standard motorcycle safety features and this is the reason that I think the Minister of Highways would have to look at the kind of equipment it comes with .

I know that some at the present time, Mr. Speaker, are operated, some of them are operated illegally. I know that the Winnipeg traffic police have already issued summonses or charged some people who were operating these vehicles illegally on highways and the streets . I also understand that the Honda type moped sells for somewhere in the neighbour hood of $300 or a little more which again appears to be very economical equipment.

I believe the industry last year and the beginning of this year have been doing a very good business selling these types of vehicles and only recently were getting pressure from the people that have purchased them that they're not allowed to be used. I think that this is an area that the Minister perhaps couW look and see if they could be licensed. I'm not certain that my resolution deals with every aspect of this type of a vehicle but I am informed that Manitoba is the only province at the present time that does not license these things.

Perhaps the Minister has more recent information, but according to some of the press bulletins that I have, I know that B.C., Saskatchewan and Alberta do treat these vehicles the same as they treat the motorcycles . Again this is the information that I have . Ontario did last year or the year before allow 14 years-of-age drivers to drive

May 12 , 1976 3657 RESOLUTION 21 (MR. PATRICK cont 'd) .•••• these motor vehicles or mopeds without licensing, with out any regulations, and as a result they ran into great difficul ties, many difficulties and they had to change their legislation. Subsequently they brought in legislation to require licensing, to require insurance, and they had to increase the age limit from I believe it was 14 to 16 to bring it in line with any other kind of vehicle, be it a car or a motor cycle . There are many people that have these vehicles at the present time and want to use them to work.

These people have cars, they have other means of transportation but they say, because of the economics, they like to drive this type of vehicle and they say, why can't I have it licensed ? I'm not talking about young kids, I'm talking about grown up people. Some of them li ve in my constituency and in fact some of them have used them to work and discover they 're not allowed to use them because they 're not licensed. I think perhaps the Minister cannot bring legislation immediately but I think that he has to at least look at the situation because we are confronted with many of these vehicles .

So again, as I said, it's a motorized assisted bicycle and I know in some of the other provinces they do charge something like $5 for a plate, for registration. In Ontario the drivers must be in possession of a motorcycle driver' s licence, now, since they amended their legislation. They ran into great difficulty when there was no legis lation. I believe that the young drivers, age 16, I believe they also can get a permit for 30 days or something and they then have to ha ve a permanent licence.

I believe also that when an owner is applying for a licence he must in Ontario produce his insurance; he must have liability insurance and also show a bill of sale that he has purchased, where he pur chased and what are the safety feature s. So again there seems to be not protection only for the driver but perhaps protection also for the people as well . I think that when we're looking at licensing these motorized vehicles in the Prov ince of Manitoba certainly some form of liability insurance must be considered. Licensing must be considered . Regulation and safety features must be considered.

I also under stand that in Ontario there is legislation that requires the dealer to provide the moped purchaser with a certificate guaranteeing that it has all the safe ty feature s and will comply with the definition of a motorized assisted bicycle or a motorcycle as described under The Highway Traffic Act. What I'm asking, Mr . Speaker, in this area is that we just can 't do nothing; something has to be done . The vehicles are in the province. Some are used, I know, illegally.

Of course if it's not a motor vehicle or a moped as complies with The Highway Traffic Act, it cannot be used and the Minister can say, well we don't want to . But I think it would be the wrong attitude to take at the present time under the circumstances where there are more people buying bicycles, there are more people buying motorized bicycles . The trend is - and it's a continuing trend and will continue in Manitoba as well - that people are buying smaller cars . The younger people will not buy a large car, they 're all going to smaller cars . That's because of economics, because of cost .

I even understand my friend from Lakeside who used to drive a pretty large car, I see he's driving a small one . So perhaps the younger generation is maybe following what he 's done probably ahead of us . Seriously, Mr . Speaker, this matter of mopeds will not go away. These same motorized bicycles or mopeds will be coming from other provinces or will be driving through our province so we 'll have to contend with them . I feel that something has to be done and we just cannot evade the question, that they 're not here and they'll disappear. I think they'll not disappear.

The manufactu rers naturally will change the style a little bit . They'll probably come up with some safety features on it and I think that the Minister should give consideration to see how we can deal with this matter. MR. CHAffiMAN : The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I believe that there 's a tendency on the part of the mem bers of this group to want to support this resolution although I'll speak for myself. We have some diff iculties with some aspects of it, particularly the last resolve .

He says that these vehicles be equipped with standard motorcycle safety features such as horns, lights, crashbars, speedometer, heavy duty shock absorbers and brakes . I suspect when you get about half way through that list you would then have to go back to

3658 May 12, 1976 RESOLUTION 21 (MR. ENNS cont'd) ••••• the manufac turer and tell him to put heavier wheels on it because the bicycle wheels couldn't carry it any more. Of course you would then very quickly end up with a motorcycle and that's really not solving the problem that the Honour able Member from Assi niboia raises . I think therein lies the dilemma.

The Minister of Highways has responsibility for not inviting dangerous situations on our roadways, not inviting Manitobans to do themselves harm and yet at the same time recognize what the Member from Assi niboia has recognized in introducing this resolution, that undoubtedly this is a case where the public is going to be using these machines and demanding some legal way of using them. I don't know, Mr.

Speaker, how it is that the cities in Europe seem to deal with these matters • If one has had the occasion to be in any large city in Europe, you have scooters and little mini-bikes and motorized mopeds and very attractive little sit-down Honda scooters that shoot in and out of traffic that to a North American viewer is just amazing to watch . I might also add as aside, Mr. Speaker, that girl watching is that much more interesting in those cities as the offi ce girls scoot by you at the rate of 30 or 40 miles an hour clinging to their skirts and the other hand to the handlebars or the wheels .

But the question that I raise is does nobody concern them selves with the safety of these fair damsels on two wheels or gentlemen or boys or what ever it is ? Certainly we seem to have diff iculty in arriving at a happy solution to the traff ic problem, to the safety problems . We tend to on the one hand simply close our eyes to the need for these kind of veh icles and not provide, through law, for their legitimate use or is it, Mr . Speaker, that we have less courteous drivers .

Our drivers in the vehicles, that is the automobiles, aren't prepared to cope and make the necessary compromise with the smalle r or lesser vehicle whether it's a bicycle pedaled by manual labour or by some form of motorized equipment. Mr. Speaker, I would like to think that what this may do, it may indeed encourage the development that has already to some extent taken place of setting aside special lanes for users of the two-wheeled vehicles .

I would like to think that maybe in along with his education course that he has embarked on at the moment with respect to the use of the safety features such as seatbelts, that a general course on education with respect to the courtesy that should be extended to drivers of other kinds of vehicles might well be con sidered to be undertaken by the department. But for one member, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to support the resol ution before us with the one concern that I ha ve, that we likely will do it in such a heavy-handed way that by the time we put all the features that the Minister's department public safety people will require to be put on these vehicles, they will have lost the original description of the vehicle we are now speaking of as mopeds . I put that caveat with respect to my support for this resolution.

I don't think that turning a moped into a motorcycle will answer the needs for those people who have let the Honourable Member for Ass iniboia and other mem bers in this Chamber know that they are concerned about finding some way of being able to use these vehicles legally in our province.

I invite the Honourable Minister to consider this problem and to examine it, indeed perhaps on the adjournment of the House to con sider inviting me to come and tour with him some of these aforementioned European cities such as Zurich and others where we can personally observe how they manage to cope with the problem there and I assure the Honourable Minister they cope with them in very large numbers . MR. ·S PEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I would also like to say a few words with regards to this resolution.

I would like to express the same concern about the latter part of the resolution that the Honourable Member from Lakeside did, in that the mopeds, the way they are now, is basically a bicycle with a motor on it and you've got to pedal to get up to a certain speed and you don't have an elaborate gearbox setup or anything which means they are quite light in weight and that's one of the reasons for their little gas con sumption. Two hundred miles to a gallon or something has been thrown around. I would also like to touch on several other things.

I think the Minister in the last little while has probably been swamped with different applications and different

May 12, 1976 3659 RESOLUTION 21 (MR. BANMAN cont'd) ••••• requests to license all kinds of things. We seem to be in an age when all terrain vehicles, leisure vehicles of all kinds are being used through out the province. Not only have the snowmobiles caught on in great numbers, I think that these three-wheeled, all terrain vehicles seem to be catching on right now too.

There has been some corresp ondence between me and the Minister with regards to that particular vehicle and I think that the Minister's department has looked into the problems involved as far as safety in putting these particular units on the highway . There seems to be a growing market for this type of thing and I am sure that the Minister is going to be re ceiving pressures from all quarters to get as many of these licensed as he can. Of course it relies heavily on the sales of these vehicles .

I believe, if my memory serves me right, last year we had a supplier here in Winnipeg who had to send back most of his mopeds because nothing did happen in the province as far as legalizing their use was concerned. I would also ask the Minister to comment on some of the remarks that the City of Winnipeg Police Department made not too long ago. I believe there was a newspaper

article whereby they had made repres entation to the Minister asking that they not be licensed. I'm wondering if that is one of the reasons why his department has decided against licensing them . The other thing, and it was touched on briefly by the Member from Assiniboia, is that there should be some kind of uniformity across Canada. The Minister has been working towards that, I believe, with regards to weight restrict ions and diff erent things as they apply to the highways .

If the two jurisdictions on either side of us allow the licensing of these particular vehicles, it causes some problems if people do want to come in with them, if a person happens to move into the country or just happens to be coming through, when he can use it in one provinc e and can't use it in the oth er . I would en courage a certain amount of uniformity when he does meet with his colleagues from dif fer ent parts of Canada. The liability aspect of course would have to be covered.

Again, the vehicles if they are on the road, and especially if some of them are equipped to carry passengers, they would have to make sure that they would carry liability coverage because we wouldn't want to see people involved in diff erent problems and then having a hard time trying to get out of them .

The final thing that I would ask the Minister is to ensure , without making it too harsh on the construction of these vehicles, to ensure that public safety of course is maintained and that the people that use these particular vehicles are covered to the extent that they won't be running any risks that they should normally not be taking. Myself, I've driven some motorcycle vehicles and I appreciate that probably the motorcycle might in some instances be even more dangerous because you 're attaining speeds of 80-90 miles an hour very oft en.

The young fellows take them out and they're real fast and I think that could cause more problems than the mopeds that would be going 20, 25 or 30 miles an hour . We notice that some of the gear bikes, these ten-speed gear bikes, some of the young kids when they start hitting that high gear they're going at a pretty good clip too. Again I would just like to say that the safety of the people using them should def initely be taken into consideration on this matter . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell) : Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

One of the things I have always appreciated about the Private Members ' Hour in this Chamber is that it gives the individual in the Chamber the right to express his own viewpoint, to ex press it in a manner that he himself thinks is a fair and logical one and it doesn't neces sarily have to agree with the viewpoints of anyone else in the Chamber. Mr.

Speaker, this also brings to mind something that was told to me a long time ago by a person who was frustrated, had been trying to do something and by some means or another everything he tried seemed to have a roadblock placed in its road, and he said this: he said, "Everything in this country is either illegal, immoral or fattening ." I think that that same philosophy can be applied to what we are dealing with here at the present time .

3660 May 12, 1976 RESOLUTION 21 A MEMBER: Well I don't know about the morality. MR. GRAHAM: The fattening part of it deals with, I think, a concern by some that we should be licensing a moped. In doing so we would fatten the coffers of the Prov incial Government because when it comes to licensing in this province, especially this government anyway, attributes a fe e. A MEMBER: They never thought of that. MR. GRAHAM: Mr . Speaker, in our sister jurisdiction, the Province of Saskatch ewan, I can attest to the fact .that there are some li cences in Saskatchewan that require no fee s.

But this province hasn't heard about that yet because I have never found any instance in this province where you get a licence without being charged a fee . But I ask the Minister to consider that concept, If he is going to consider the licensing of mopeds, let him consider the fact that maybe there should be no fee . Because when you 're talking about a moped you're talking about either a boy's means of transportation or a poor man's means of transportation - or a girl's as well .

To my mind anyway, I think that there are times in society when we could quite logically consider a licensing system that doesn't re quire any fees . I think this is a very good example, that if it is the desire of the gov ernment to license this vehicle, that they consider seriously the fact that there be no fee for the licence • At the same time, Mr. Speaker, I have to say that in my own view I don't think that even licensing should be required in this respect. I think that we have long had bicycles operating in this province. In some places, I believe in the City of Winnipeg, they do require a licence.

There are other places in the province where they require no fee, no licence, and I don't think the incidence of accident is any greater where there is no fee or no licence required. In this respect the moped is not that much different from a bicycle . Mr. Speaker, I have ridden a bicycle; I've ridden a moped; I've ridden a motor cycle; a car, a truck, a tractor, a horse and I've had an opportunity to assess the value s of the various means of transportation we have . I think that there is a very valid place in our society today for a moped.

If we are attempting to curtail the use of our non renewable resources then I think that any effort that can be made to maximize the use of those is a very desirable fact or . If we can use a vehicle that will perform at the rate of 200-250 miles on one gallon of gasoline, without undue hardship to the person involved or to society at large , then I think that we should seriously consider the utilization of that means of transportation. I've heard some concerns expressed about the necessity for ensuring that society at large will be protected.

Quite frankly, Sir, I don't think there are too many instances of serious personal harm to other individuals in society that has been caused by bike riders . I know there are some and I know that there are presently on the statutes in this province adequate protection and adequate means for an aggrieved person to take his case to the court . I don't think that in this particular instance there is any serious danger to society by the use of mopeds • So I would ask the Minister seriously, if he doesn't want to license them that's fine . But don't make them illegal .

Remove them from the list of illegal vehicles in the Province of Manitoba and I would be perfectly happy . You don't have to license them but just make it permissive . We're living in a society today, Mr . Speaker, where we are so intent on passing legislation that is restrictive that I would like to see a little bit of per missiveness in our society, a little bit of freedom for the individual to act on his own and not be constantly mindful of the restrictive nature that has prevailed in the legislation that we seem so intent on passing every day.

I make those comments, Sir, as an individual; I know that there are many in the Chamber won't agree with me • But I think that if we are going to deal with any partic ular problem it's only fair that we listen to the comments of all and get as many view points as possible before we make any decisions. I sincerely hope that the Minister won't sit on this thing fore ver and a day. In fact I would hope that some decision will be made in the very near future . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River.

May 12 , 1976 3661 RESOLUTION 21 MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I've listened to the discussion this afternoon with considerable interest and it takes my mind back to a few years ago when the legislators had to consider whether or not they would legalize snowmobiles. I happen to be a mem ber of the Highway Traffic Act Co=ittee and I remember so well the opposition to the use of the snowmobiles, that is the licensing of snowmobiles. It was quite evident as the committee went on through its deliberations that the day would come when this piece of equipment would be quite prevalent.

I remember so well the discussion at the time, that a vehicle such as that type of a machine being on the highways , the low-slung lights, and the high lights of the automobiles and the danger that would be created by allowing the use of snowmobiles on the highways pretty well !mocked it down. It was the feelings of the co=ittee at that time and the feelings of the members of the House for that matter, that there was no way that they could see that the snowmobile would arrive at the stage that it ultimately did arrive at. You !mow as well as I do, Mr.

Speaker, that they've become almost a household word although there seems to be a decline in their use these days . But nevertheless they are and have been a danger on the highway that is used by heavier traffic • I would suggest to the Minister that whether he likes it or not, that he'd probably better prepare himself to set up the necessary regulations and licensing system to accom modate this piece of equipment because I believe that as time goes along the people will demand the right to use this type of equipment.

My suggestion to him would be to see to it that all the safety features, particularly in the last tnragraph, are embodied in regula tions or otherwise the equipment should not be used on the highway . No doubt I will support this resolution because I think in due course public demand will require that they have the privilege of using this equipment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways . MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker, I only have a couple of co=ents to make . I was listening very closely to the comments that were made by the various members that spoke on this resolution.

As a matter of fact, I was quite surprised that it generated as much debate as it did. Nevertheless, this is good because I think we have the idea of, especially the members that spoke, how they feel about this particular resolution. We have received some requests, not all that many , as far as the Highways Department is concerned . I believe that probably some other departments have, as well as some of the MLAs in the House on both sides, I would think, although as I say we, in Highways, have not received all that many requests to have these mopeds licensed. But there have been some .

We have been looking at the possibility of licensing mopeds in the last few months and really I cannot disagree with the resolution proposed by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. However there are certain things that have to be considered. In the first instance, I want to point out that all provinces do not have this legis lation as yet. Most of them have . In western Canada, Manitoba and Alberta have not enacted any legislation dealing with mopeds . However, that's beside the point.

The thing that we must remember, of course, is that certain standards have to be prescribed for these so-ca lled vehicles which is now being worked on by all of the provinces in Canada as well as the Federal Government for the sake of uniformity just like most other vehicles that we have in our country, in our province today . Some of the provinces - and I think there was some reference made to the Province of Ontario along with the Province of Quebec - they were two provinces that brought in this legislation first .

By their own admission they realized that perhaps they acted too quickly because they had run into very many problems with it so that they've had to make a number of amendments and as a matter of fact are still making them . Some of the things that I want to point out, the problems that occurred - I think my friend, the Member for Assiniboia, mentioned the fact that Ontario when they first licensed the mopeds they allowed 14-y ear-olds to drive these vehicles .

In a very short time after they realized that that was a mistake so they had to make certain amendments and now they have to be 16 years of age before you can drive this machine . They have also found that they had to make certain amendments as far as where

3662 May 12 , 1976 RESOLUTION 21 (MR. BURTNJAK cont'd) ••••• these mopeds can be used. They found that they were really a hazard on the so-called freeways around Toronto so they banned them from being used on the freeways. Some other problems are, in British Columbia for example, they do not permit the use of mopeds on any roads where the speed limit is 50 miles an hour or over be cause that too can create a traffic hazard . All these things have to be taken into con sideration before licensing of these machines is permitted or accepted .

Another very important aspect of it of course is the fact that these machines are equipped with motors which are magneto driven, not battery. What happens when they come to a stop light it means that the lights just about go out which is also a serious problem. So all these things are being looked at and as I say certain safety features have to . be prescribed which have not been as yet fully agreed by all provinces . I want to also mention, Mr.

Speaker, at this time that there is also consideration given to the fact in some areas where perhaps by licensing these mac hines, these vehicles, that perhaps consideration should be given that the operators of these vehicles should also be compelled to wear safety helmets. Most provinces ha ve, in Canada, and we as Manitobans have not passed that legislation. We are the only province that has not made it mandatory to wear helmets when you are operating a motorcycle .

I want to point out that these are the kinds of things that other provinces are looking at and are saying that if they're going to be used on our roads and even though they travel say 25-30 miles an hour, nevertheless they feel that the operators of these mopeds should be asked to wear a safety helmet.

As I say, here again, before we decide to license these vehicles we want to be sure, like the Province of Alberta by the way, has taken the same position as we have in Manitoba, that until there is fairly complete agreement by all provinces as far as certain standards of these machine s are concerned then they will probably be in the position and willing to legislate licensing of these vehicles. So that with those few comments, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Tourism, THAT the proposed Resolution No . 21 be amended by adding after the word "regulations" in the second line of the first resolve the following: "Relative to 1977 and thereafter. " MOTION on the amendment presented and carried . MOTION on the resolution as amended presented and carried . MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Radisson have a notice ? MR. SHAFRANS

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-109
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 109.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d5add33b45e22b0d9e5528bf50c2838c5052d097

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