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April 27, 1990

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

TIME ALLOCATION (CONTINUED FROM No 23)

TIME ALLOCATION (CONTINUED FROM No 23)

Resuming the adjourned debate on government notice of motion 30 on time allocation in relation to Bill 68,

An Act to amend certain Acts respecting Insurance.

Mr Kormos: Mr Speaker, you might recall that I was talking about the comments made by one D. W. Monteith from Newmarket. Mr Speaker, I am so pleased that you made note of the visitors here in the gallery. These folk came down here to Queen’s Park at midnight. There are another 35 telephone calls here. These people came down here to Queen’s Park at midnight on Thursday 26 April 1990 to see something very special.

They came down here at midnight on Thursday 26 April 1990 because we have a whole bunch of people here at Queen’s Park right now who do not think the Liberals should be able to shut down oppositions either. We have a whole bunch of people right here at Queen’s Park sitting in these galleries. You know what, Mr Speaker? There is room for more.

We are doing something very special this evening. This House is sitting well beyond what the rules normally call for. We are into the 30th hour or so of this debate. I am speaking of the 30th hour that I have been speaking on the issue. I tell you, Mr Speaker, there is a whole lot more to come. You are talking about a speech that is the longest speech in the history of the provincial Legislature and, Mr Speaker, as of midnight tonight you are also talking about the longest single speech at any one time: from 6 pm until 12 midnight tonight.

The fact is, we broke the Queen’s Park record some weeks ago for day-to-day speeches, and today we broke the record for the longest single speech. But you know what, Mr Speaker? There is more to come.

I will tell you what I want to talk about for just a minute. We are going to get back to Mr Monteith’s record shortly. You know, Mr Speaker, that 8 January 1990 was the only day that the Minister of Financial Institutions appeared at the standing committee on general government during its consideration of Bill 68. The House leader has a hard time understanding why we find it repugnant that the Liberals would want to spend but two afternoons in committee of the whole over Bill 68. Why, these guys want to crush the life out of democracy.

The Liberals here at Queen’s Park do not just want to impose closure on the opposition; the Liberals want to impose closure on the people of Ontario, on the drivers and taxpayers and innocent injured victims. That is what is happening with this motion.

Back on 8 January 1990 the Minister of Financial Institutions appeared in front of the general government committee for about one afternoon. He appeared there to unload his salvo, to dump all over, if you will, people like John Bates from PRIDE. Do you know John Bates, the president of PRIDE, People to Reduce Impaired Driving Everywhere, Mr Speaker? Why, Mr Bates is just about one of the finest people that this province has ever seen.

You are talking about People to Reduce Impaired Driving Everywhere, an organization that is committed to speaking out for the victims of drunk drivers, that is committed to speaking out and coming to the aid of the families, of the young people and old, but the young and old whose lives are crushed out, snuffed out by the drunk on the highway. You are talking about John Bates, who has probably given this government more guidance on how to respond to the problem of drinking and driving, and the carnage that that creates on the highway, than any other single person.

What does the Minister of Financial Institutions do? Without John Bates being there, without any representative from PRIDE being there on 8 January 1990, the only day that the minister showed up -- the only day of its complete sittings that the Minister of Financial Institutions showed up, graced that committee with his presence, if such can be grace -- he showed up there to dump all over people like John Bates from PRIDE, to dump all over him. I tell you, Mr Speaker, John Bates from PRIDE deserves better, especially from the Minister of Financial Institutions.

John Bates has dedicated this latter part of his lifetime to making life better for people here in the province of Ontario, but the Minister of Financial Institutions did not leave it at that.

You see, Ralph Nader had been here in Toronto some couple of months prior. Ralph had come up here from the United States to talk about the tragedy that threshold insurance posed for Canadian drivers, Canadian taxpayers and Ontario’s innocent injured victims. These are the same innocent injured victims whom we have been talking about. I tell you that it is the case that, if Bill 68 is permitted to become law, over 95 per cent of them will not be entitled to any compensation for pain and suffering or for loss of enjoyment of life. Mr Speaker, does that impress you as fair?

There is not a fair-minded person in this province who would find that acceptable. But the insurance industry is oh-so-pleased about that, that threshold which is going to guarantee that at least 95 per cent of all innocent injured accident victims here in the province of Ontario do not receive a penny in compensation for pain and suffering or for loss of enjoyment of life.

The insurance companies find that quite acceptable. You know why, Mr Speaker? Because that is going to put $823 million into the insurance companies’ pockets in the first year alone, that is why. The insurance companies of the province of Ontario are prepared to bolster up their profits to tune of almost $1 billion on the broken backs, the broken legs, the broken arms, the fractured skulls of kids and other victims of drunk drivers, careless drivers, negligent drivers.

Hon Mrs Caplan: Your nose is growing.

Mr Kormos: The Minister of Health is talking about my nose growing. Holy cow.

Back to Mr Nader here at Queen’s Park. In the latter part of 1989, Mr Nader came up here to tell Canadians, based on his experience as a consumer advocate and his experience with the insurance industry. We are talking about a consumers’ rights expert whose testimony has been accepted by dozens and dozens of congressional and senatorial investigations into the insurance industry in the United States of America.

The Minister of Financial Institutions felt real brave appearing on that day -- the only half day he ever showed up in front of that general government committee. Remember that this is the same general government committee where the member for Guelph, the minister’s parliamentary assistant, after we appeared in Sudbury said, “Oh my; we” -- those are the Liberals -- “got hammered by the opposition.”

What was the opposition? You remember, Mr Speaker. You know who opposed Bill 68 in front of those committee hearings. You know the insurance industry was there advocating it and the insurance industry was looking at a billion-dollar payday, and quite frankly still is. The insurance industry figures it has at least rented if not actually bought a government.

The auto insurance industry here in the province of Ontario thinks that Bill 68 is rightly its. I will tell you, Mr Speaker: That same insurance industry figures that it has at least rented if not actually bought a government.

So representatives of that same auto insurance industry from here in the province of Ontario were appearing in front of that committee telling these Liberals sitting on that committee -- and it is not that the Liberals on the committee were Allen or were unknown to the insurance industry, because what we had discovered, in short order, was that some of the very same Liberals sitting on that committee, on that general government committee, whose job it was to hear submissions about Bill 68, had been receiving insurance company donations at election time.

You see, it might be unparliamentary to suggest that that should be called grease, but where I come from we call that grease; we call that payola.

Mr Speaker, I am telling you, you have people sitting on that committee who have received not insignificant donations from auto insurance companies during the course of their 1987 election campaigns. You know what, Mr Speaker? They did not even declare that obvious conflict. Those same Liberals sitting on that general government committee had been the beneficiaries of some awfully impressive insurance company largess. Why, it is no wonder premiums are so high; look at what the insurance companies are spending those premium dollars on.

Some of the very same members who were sitting in deliberation of submissions being made to them by people from all across Ontario had themselves been the beneficiaries and the grantees; had been able to pocket, for their campaigns, money donated to them by the auto insurance industry here in the province of Ontario.

I suppose that some of the damage could have been undone had those same people stood up and said: “Look, I’m quite eager to sit on this general government committee. I want you on the committee and you in the public to understand that in fact, yes, I have received donations from the auto insurance industry.” That would have gone a little bit of the way towards -- you know the old adage, Mr Speaker: Justice must not only be done -- I will bet there are a few Liberals in the lawyers’ ranks who forgot this a long time ago -- but it must also seem or appear to be done. People have to be satisfied that what is happening is legitimate and fair.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Kormos: You know, Mr Speaker --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Kormos: Mr Speaker, I want to get back to what I was talking about, but I have to tell you that people are listening all over the province. Greta Parrotta in Welland just called in. She says no-fault is no good. In fact, in spite of the fact that some of the people in her household have to go to work tomorrow they are going to stay up all night to watch this with the rest of these folks. So God bless Greta Parrotta.

Alan Wilson in Barrie: Bill 68 terrifies him. He just phoned in, Alan Wilson in Barrie.

An hon member: What number did he phone?

Mr Kormos: He phoned 965-1224.

Jane Brain from Hamilton-Wentworth called on behalf of several single mothers: “If Bill 68 goes through, these moms won’t be able to drive their children to school. Citizens of the future are being threatened by this bill.”

Why will the Liberals not listen to Jane Brain? Why will the Liberals not listen to Alan Wilson of Barrie? Why will the Liberals not listen to Greta Parrotta of Welland? Because these people are not insurance company executives; because these people cannot make $1,000 contributions at election time; because these people do not have boardrooms in big high-rises with thick, plush carpets; because these people work for their livings and the Liberal Party of Ontario is not interested in representing people who work hard for livings. I tell you that, Mr Speaker.

Pat Poirier from St Catharines is listening and he just called in and said it is time the government was accountable to the people. Delema Duquett from North Bay had been trying for four hours to call us at 965-1224. She finally got through. She says “Keep it up,” that the Liberals have forgotten them up there in the north. You bet your boots they have.

Why will the Liberals not listen to people like Delema Duquett? Because she is not an executive from a big insurance company with big donations to make at election time. That is why. Mr Speaker, could you please make them listen? Could you? Because that is all we want. All we want is the Liberals in this province to do what the people of this province want done. All we want is for the Liberals to say to the insurance companies: “The insurance companies are on their own. We’re going to finally decide to represent the working people of this province instead of the big, wealthy, powerful insurance industry.”

All we want is 29 Liberals, because that is all we need to defeat this motion: 29 Liberals who want to be re-elected. We are looking for 29 Liberals who like their jobs and want to get re-elected, because those 29 Liberals will vote no to defeat this time motion and those 29 Liberals will vote no on Bill 68. I tell you what, Mr Speaker: Remember I told you earlier about Jeanne Dixon’s predictions? I do not know about the rest of it, but I can tell you this: Those 29 Liberals will get re-elected. That is a guarantee.

Lisa Curtez from Mississauga says “No way” to Bill 68. Lisa Curtez has a six-star rating and her auto insurance has gone up 50 per cent before Bill 68 even gets implemented. Lisa Curtez is scared out of her wits and she is going to be among those people, among those almost a third of a million people right here in the province of Ontario who, once Bill 68 is passed, will face premium increases of as high as 80 per cent.

Mr Speaker, I tell you that the general government committee heard submissions about Bill 68. I tell you, the insurance industry supported Bill 68. The insurance industry wants Bill 68 passed so bad. The insurance industry -- you want to know something? They ain’t phoning in, but they are watching. The insurance industry is not phoning in, but I tell you they are watching, because they are as nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof. They have already started to spend the money that they were planning on making by virtue of Bill 68.

Those Lamborghinis and those Ferraris have already been ordered and the down payments have already been made. There are going to be an awful lot of insurance company executives awfully disappointed if we can manage to find 29 good Liberals who want to get re-elected.

I will tell you about who has been appearing in front of the general government committee. We are going to get to Ralph Nader, because he appeared there. I want to talk to you about what Ralph Nader told that committee, because that is the important thing. You see, the Minister of Financial Institutions was not there. He would dump all over Ralph Nader when Ralph Nader was gone, but when Ralph Nader showed up did the minister confront him? No way; no sirree, Bob. I tell you: No, sir, he would not show up and confront him, not for love or money. The fact is that on 8 January 1990 the Minister of Financial Institutions dumped all over Ralph Nader.

There are more telephone calls. Peter and Mona Holt from Toronto Island: “The Liberals have forgotten drivers, northerners and tenants.” Gary from Welland has been up for 36 hours but he will stay up all night to watch.

People are concerned about what is happening here in this assembly. People have never seen anything like this because people have never seen the Liberals try to impose such unpopular legislation. People have never seen the public of Ontario sold out so thoroughly and so quickly and so promptly by a government that could not give a tinker’s damn for the drivers or the taxpayers or the innocent injured victims, those 95 per cent of all innocent injured victims who will not get a penny, not a nickel, not a dime in compensation for their pain and suffering.

Those are the people who are being sold out so that an insurance industry that is already very powerful -- we know that, because it can pull the strings of a government -- and very wealthy can find and earn new profits, windfall profits, of $1 billion in the first year alone.

Vincent McAloon from Etobicoke says, “Down with all tyrants, especially the Liberals.” He says, “Keep up the good work.” William and Dorothy Payson from St Catharines --

Interjection.

Mr Kormos: People are not listening? People have never been more afraid in their lives. People have never been more concerned in their lives.

Mr Speaker, it is 12:20, it is 20 minutes after midnight.

Mr Philip: They are still calling.

Mr Kormos: Most people should be in bed at this time of night, you and I included, Mr Speaker. But what is happening here is far too important. That is why William and Dorothy Payson from St Catharines call in and talk about how Bill 68 is going to inevitably drive up their insurance premiums.

John Bates from People to Reduce Impaired Driving Everywhere called in. I tell you, Mr Speaker, John Bates is one of the finest people, one of the most selfless people I have ever met. John Bates, the president of PRIDE, is one of our great Ontarians and I say that without hesitation. The man is a kind, unassuming, gentle person and I tell you this, he is intolerant. You know that? John Bates is intolerant. It would seem that intolerance would have become a nasty word in our society and, indeed, to a large extent it has.

But John Bates is intolerant of the drunk who would thoughtlessly smash down the kid into the asphalt on the highway. John Bates is intolerant of the reckless, negligent, careless driver, the very same sort of reckless, negligent, careless drunken driver who is likely and possibly to be treated better under Bill 68 than his or her victim. That is exactly what we would like to talk to the Minister of Financial Institutions about.

You know what, Mr Speaker? I wish John Bates were right here. I wish John Bates were right here in this assembly so that people could look at what a great Ontarian looks like, I tell you that. If John Bates were to come here, we should be proud, as members of this assembly, for him to grace us with his presence. And the Minister of Financial Institutions dumps all over him. John Bates came to the general government committee. Was the Minister of Financial Institutions there to confront John Bates? No, no, no.

So that is why we oppose this time allocation motion, the two scant afternoons, the two two-and-a-half-hour periods that the government and the Premier of Ontario want to ensure that there is no meaningful debate about Bill 68. All that the House leader’s time allocation motion permits is but two scant afternoons for committee of the whole. That is not even enough time for the Liberals to read into the record their proposed amendments. It makes a mockery, a sham, a pathetic mockery and sham of this assembly and of democracy in this province.

John Lent from Timmins phoned in some time around 5 or 10 minutes ago and he has been trying to get through for over an hour. He and his family are right behind us. He says no to time allocation and he says no to no-fault. James Singh from Willowdale is watching and he is saying, “No way to time allocation, no way to no-fault.”

Remember, I was going to talk to you, Mr Speaker, about the kinds of people opposing Bill 68 at the general government committee. The Metropolitan Toronto Police Association was there on behalf of their thousands and thousands of good policemen and policewomen saying no to the Liberals’ no-fault. No-fault? There is lots of fault with it. About the only people in this province for whom it is any good are the auto insurance industry, because it is going to make new windfall profits of $1 billion in the first year alone. Can you believe it?

It is an industry that I tell you is not doing badly, thank you. It is doing quite fine. In 1989, the insurance industry in Canada enjoyed record profits for the last eight years. Profits for the insurance industry in Canada for 1989 were in excess of $1 billion, and this government wants to hand over to the auto insurance industry in this province another $1-billion windfall and I tell you, Mr Speaker, that is the first year alone. Do you think it is going to stop there? Not on your life. It is not going to stop there, I tell you that.

Nobody has ever talked about one-time-only premium increases. Because I tell you this, Mr Speaker: If your premiums go up by as much as 50 per cent in the first year, you can count on it, they are going to go up by at least that much in the second year and then more in the third, in the fourth, in the fifth. Look at what we are talking about. We are talking about a corporate automobile insurance industry whose purpose is to make profits. It is as simple as that and nobody is disputing that. But understand, for the briefest of moments, how an insurance company makes profits. Do not forget, their goal is to make the most amount of profit.

We have got business people sitting right here who understand that that is what free enterprise is all about, and when you leave something up to the corporate sector that is what you are left with, an industry that wants to maximize its profits. But how does the insurance industry do that? How does the insurance industry maximize profits? Well, you know how: by charging the greatest amount of premiums and paying out the least amount of compensation. It is not that hard to figure out, is it? It is pretty obvious to the most casual observer. There is nothing mysterious about it. Insurance companies have the proverbial short arms and deep pockets. That is the nature of the beast.

There is nothing that has happened lately in this province that has caused the leopard to change its spots. Boards of directors in the insurance industry have not become occupied all of a sudden by Mother Teresas. They have not become charitable organizations. They are the same profit-making organizations they were last year, and the decade before and the decade before that.

Ralph Nader came to tell the people of Ontario that Bill 68 will not fly. The Ontario Teachers’ Federation came to tell the Liberals of Ontario, “Bill 68, no-fault, no way, no thanks.” St Catharines and District Labour Council -- you remember, Mr Speaker -- Rob West; he came to this general government committee to tell the Liberals on that committee that the 15,000 workers he represents from the St Catharines area and the St Catharines and District Labour Council oppose Bill 68. They oppose threshold insurance.

The provincial Sudbury Liberal Association passed a resolution condemning Bill 68. Indeed, the provincial Sudbury East Liberal Association passed a resolution condemning Bill 68 and calling upon Liberal members to vote against it, and in the case of Sudbury, calling on its own member, because, as the members well know, that riding is represented in this Legislature, at least until the next general election, by a Liberal.

The Police Association of Ontario, the Ontario Federation of Labour -- they all oppose Bill 68, while the auto insurance industry is real gung-ho about Bill 68. If you are an auto insurance executive, Bill 68 is just about a perfect piece of legislation, no two ways about it. They did not even dare ask for that, remember that? Remember in front of Mr Justice Osborne, the multimillion-dollar provincial inquiry? The Liberals are giving the insurance industry more than the insurance industry dared even ask for.

David and Barbara White in London are listening. It is almost 12:30 on a Thursday night, early Friday morning, and David and Barbara White in London are listening and saying, “No way to no-fault.”

Jessie Provan, East York, has been trying to get through for hours. She is 36 years in Canada. She blesses me, and I appreciate that. Lord knows. Mr Speaker, I need as many blessings as I can get. I tell you that right now. You know that better than I do. Jessie Provan is a senior from East York. She is going to stay up all night.

Here is a worker from State Farm Insurance who phoned up. He said it is already set up. It is a go. What does that mean, Mr Speaker? Does that mean that the whole parliamentary function has been usurped? Does that mean that the Liberals were bold enough to dare count their chickens before their eggs hatched? Does that mean the Liberals had their marching orders and that the only thing they can avail themselves of now is the Nuremberg defence? Does that mean it is in the bag, it is all wrapped up with a bow?

Not if I have anything to do with it, not if the rest of the New Democratic caucus here has anything to do with it and not if we can find 29 Liberals who want to get re-elected in the next general election. A worker from State Farm phones up and says it is already set up. He says, “Quite frankly, the whole scene is disgusting.”

A lady called at 12:15 to say good night. She is smarter than all of us. She is going to bed. But she adds that she hopes we are still going when she gets up in the morning. That is easy for her to say.

Ralph Nader appeared on 15 January --

Interjection.

Mr Kormos: I am just amazed at the occasional squawk that comes out of Liberal benches here. When I hear that squeal of pain, I sort of feel like a dentist. I feel as if I should be asking the nurse to administer more Novocain, because I know we are getting close to a nerve when the Liberals start doing their jack-in-the-box routines, jumping up and down, doing points of order, doing this and that in every which way they can.

Do you want to know something, Mr Speaker? Their House leader promised them that I was going to be out of here by around 10 o’clock, 10:30. Do you know that? No, not on your life, because we have a time allocation motion to talk about.

I wanted to talk specifically about what Ralph Nader had to say on 15 January in front of the standing committee on general government. If I had the 15 January transcript, which I had here a moment ago, I would be referring to that. As it is now, I might have to refer to 8 January. But, Mr Speaker, I am going to talk more about the people who oppose Bill 68. Those are the people who came before the general government committee. Those are the people about whom the parliamentary assistant, as I told you before, said, “We got hammered.” That is to say, the Liberals got hammered by the opposition.

The first day that committee sat was 8 January 1990, at least in terms of hearing submissions. I have told you this before, Mr Speaker, but I think it warrants impressing upon you, if you will permit me. What we are doing here is trying to get these Liberals to acknowledge that the people of Ontario want to see a full debate about Bill 68; that they will not tolerate jackbootism; that they insist that the Liberals not be permitted to hijack Parliament, to hijack the Legislature, and I have little difficulty joining with them in that regard.

On 15 January 1990 -- I thought I would never find it -- Ralph Nader appeared in front of the general government committee. One of the things I wanted to try to tell you, Mr Speaker, and this is important, when we are talking about why we feel it is so imperative that there be full discussion of Bill 68, is that the general government committee -- mind you, it was dominated by Liberals. You see, how it works is that you have six Liberals, two New Democrats and two Tories. I tell you, that is depressing, no two ways about it. The fact is that the Liberals vote in a bloc. You have the trained-seal syndrome.

You have a whole bunch of Liberals who are really good at holding the red ball on their noses for hours on end. But think for themselves? Not for a million bucks. Oh, for the insurance companies, a billion bucks, but for themselves, not for a million bucks.

So you got Liberals on there who resisted every New Democrat move to try to open up the process. We are talking about Liberals who ran -- I am not old enough that my memory should be starting to fail me, and I distinctly remember the Liberals in this province running on a campaign that there was going to be open government, a campaign of consultation. They were going to consult.

Here are more phone calls. These people called in to 965-1239. Marie O’Brien from Chatham: “Good luck. Always voted Liberal. Won’t next time.”

Gail Baldwin from Mississauga: Her friends are coming down. Well, come on down. But she cannot come because she has been in an auto accident. She knows that if Bill 68 had been passed before her accident, she would not receive the compensation she is entitled to. So we all wish Gail Baldwin the very best, I know that, and a speedy recovery.

People have accused me of delaying Bill 68. Do you want to know something, Mr Speaker? Every day that we have been able to prevent Bill 68 from becoming law, there are people out there who are tragically the victims of motor vehicle accidents who will get compensation that is rightly theirs. Do you want to know something? If I can be accused of delaying Bill 68, why I --

Interjection

Mr Kormos: You see, I told you. Bring on the Novocain, Mr Speaker, we are touching a nerve, honest to goodness. Tell them not to worry, we are not going to pull it, we are just going to drill a little more. This is the proverbial political root canal, ain’t it? It is tough out there when you have made promises to the insurance industry that are getting all fouled up now. They promised the insurance industry that this was going to be wrapped up lock, stock and barrel and it is not.

Do you want to know why, Mr Speaker? Because hundreds of people have been phoning in to Queen’s Park tonight alone, to 965-1239 and they have been phoning in to 965-1224. They have been waiting for as long as one, two and three hours to get through on those lines, people like Gail Baldwin who is sending her friends down to Queen’s Park because they have a right to be here.

Arnold Walker phones in from St Thomas. He says he has been watching for weeks. He says: “You have our full support in St Thomas. You are doing a great job. Bill 68 is appalling.”

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Cureatz): The honourable member for Port Arthur, yoo-hoo.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: Right. He is sorry, so it is okay.

Mr R. F. Johnston: Mr Speaker, I want you to know something: I am sorry too. I am sorry for the people of Thunder Bay who made the mistake of electing the member once.

The Acting Speaker: You are not helping matters at all. Shame on you. Listen, you are just egging him on. We were doing quite well. It is only 12:40 am.

Mr Kormos: Arnold Walker from St Thomas called in. He has been watching this for a few weeks. He tells the opposition that we have his full support. He says that we are doing a great job. We appreciate that because it is phone calls like this that people are calling in to 965-1224 and 965-1239, people phoning in to those phones right here at Queen’s Park, right here in the members’ lobby, that are giving me the energy and the enthusiasm to make this last lap. I am going to be here at noon tomorrow.

An hon member: Noon?

Mr Kormos: Noon.

An hon member: All right, I’ll be back.

Mr Kormos: You remember what happened on 15 January 1990, do you not, Mr Speaker? Vicky Turgeon from Welland and her son Todd are watching. They are up late at night and I appreciate their staying up to watch, but they are also seeing something really important happening right here in this province of Ontario. They are seeing hundreds and thousands of people telling these Liberals to take their closure and stuff it. Vicky Turgeon and her son Todd from Welland are watching this and they know what happened.

What happened on 15 January? Let me tell you what happened. Paul Jewell from Toronto knows that the Liberal majority is being used against democracy. The Liberal majority is being used to snuff out democracy. Paul Jewell from Toronto knows that.

Lori Boyle Cousineau from Welland says: “Keep it up, Pete. Don’t let them do it to us.” She is talking about the Liberals.

Helen and May Driscoll from Scarborough -- I think I mentioned them.

John Morden and Barbara Gravenhurst have been trying for some time to get through. Mr Speaker, will you please listen to this? And it bothers me to have to say this. This disturbs me a great deal. Profanity? Yes, this is a profanity and it bothers me a great deal to say it, but John Morden and Barbara Gravenhurst say that they should remind the Liberals what Hitler’s regime did to democracy in Germany and that the Liberals in Queen’s Park ought to listen to the people of Ontario. That is a profanity. When people here in Ontario speak of their government and Hitler’s regime in the same breath, it is a sad day for the state of politics, is it not?

But the people cannot be fooled. The people know that what is happening is that legislation that is incredibly unpopular and incredibly bad is being forced upon the people of Ontario because the government sold its soul.

Jack Lavell, and Shane and Shawn; I know Jack Lavell, and he has sons, twins I think, Shane and Shawn. They phoned in with support. They note that the insurance companies are already training the employees on no-fault insurance before the legislation is passed. That shows you the arrogance of this government, a cocksure government that figures it is all wrapped up with the bull.

Bill Henry is a businessman in Owen Sound. He is behind the opposition to this time allocation motion 100 per cent.

You know, you have got more people coming in here all the time, Mr Speaker. The people of Ontario and the people of Metropolitan Toronto should know that Queen’s Park is going to be open all night. There is going to be room in the members’ gallery for a whole lot of them, and their presence right here at a quarter to one and at one o’clock and at 1:30 and two o’clock is oh so important to all of us. There is something important happening here right now and you know it, Mr Speaker. It is happening here right now and you know it. These good people sitting here in these galleries know it and the people calling in on the phone to 965-1224 know it too.

On 15 January 1990, I have got to tell you, the general government committee -- it was never intended to be. The Minister of Financial Institutions -- and we are talking about legislation that was only introduced in the fall of 1989 -- had promised the insurance industry that it was going to be passed before December 20. The minister of Financial Institutions --

Mr R. F. Johnston: Mr Speaker, I would like to see whether there is a quorum to hear this important speech.

The Acting Speaker: There has been a call for a quorum.

Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Journals: A quorum is present, Mr Speaker.

The Acting Speaker: It has been brought to my attention that a quorum is present, so we have no alternative but to allow the member for Welland-Thorold to continue.

Mr Kormos: Listen for just a moment, Mr Speaker.

Remember what happened back in January of 1990? As I told you, the Liberals had no intention in November -- Mr Speaker, you and I were in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, for two days in November 1989. The general government committee was never intended to be. As I told you, the Minister of Financial Institutions -- I have got to move this chair out of the way because I need a little bit of room here, Mr Speaker -- promised the insurance industry that Bill 68 was going to be passed before the Christmas break, that Bill 68 was going to be passed before December 20, 1989.

He did not announce it to the Legislature; we read it in the newspapers. We said, “No, we won’t let the Liberals get away with that nonsense, not as long as we are in opposition, not as long as we can talk and walk and breathe.” So we leaned on them, we leaned on the Liberals a whole lot. But they have got this incredible majority. You know, Mr Speaker, sometimes that gets depressing, does it not? Sometimes it gets real depressing, because it is an arrogant and supercilious majority.

Interjections.

Mr Kormos: The problem with dictionaries, Mr Speaker, is that they are only of value to people who know how to read.

We are talking about a general government committee that was never intended to be. We finally forced it out of the Liberals.

Mr Speaker, it is a quarter to one in the morning. We have been talking now since six o’clock.

Michael Sands calls in from Toronto. Michael Sands says he would like to register his appreciation. He says, “Mr Smith Goes to Washington doesn’t hold a candle.” To boot, I think that was in black and white; this is in colour. Mr Smith Goes to Washington, a great Capra film, but if I remember correctly, it was in black and white. Is that correct, Mr Speaker? And this is in colour and this is live and people do not have to be watching us on their TVs, because there is room for them in these galleries right here at Queen’s Park, right here this morning, through until one o’clock, two o’clock, three o’clock. It sounds like an old Bill Haley song, does it not?

But I tell you there is room for those folks right here at Queen’s Park all night, all morning, and if one of them would please bring in an early edition of the Globe and Mail or the Toronto Star, I have got some people here who would love to have it, because the fact is that New Democrats can chew gum and walk at the same time.

Terry Binee from Sioux Lookout phones in: “All power to you. Don’t give in.”

John MacDonald from the Beaches, “You’ve got all our support.”

Steve Tanner from Sudbury, a college student from Sudbury living in Toronto, called in at 965-1224, and it took him a while. I just know that one of my colleagues sitting with me here is going to give me the other number.

Helen Brown in Welland, Grace Brown, Robert Brown, Robert Brown Jr and Brenda Brown -- the whole family is up. They are watching TV. It would be nice if they could be here, but Welland is, what, a 90-minute drive? Bless them.

Steve Tanner from Sudbury wants to know if David Peterson will buy his car when Steve cannot afford to drive because of auto insurance costs. I do not think so. You see, the problem is the Premier is a millionaire. That is not a big secret. The Premier is a millionaire.

Interjections.

Mr Kormos: Well, he is. The fact is that the Premier did not have to earn that million bucks; he inherited it.

Mr Speaker, at this time, I move adjournment of the House, it being slightly before 1 am.

The Acting Speaker: Let me see. The honourable member for Welland-Thorold has moved, not the adjournment of the debate, but the adjournment of the House. Now, I have to think about this for a minute. Yes, I think that is in order. If you would you like to speak to that, you can speak to that.

Mr R. F. Johnston: That is not debatable according to the standing orders.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: I think that is correct. Well, you see, I will tell you, this is the trouble when we sit this late, because the Speaker’s mind gets a little foggy. We will hear the House leader.

Hon Mr Ward: I would suggest that the motion is not in order. The member has already, on other occasions, moved adjournment.

Interjections.

Mr R. F. Johnston: Mr Speaker, could I speak to the --

The Acting Speaker: Well, I would love you to speak to it, because I have just been waiting with bated breath.

Mr R. F. Johnston: I was going to say that the government House leader has again confused matters for us and is trying to confuse you, Mr Speaker, as I know you will not be confused. Although it is true that the member has now twice adjourned the debate, after a considerable period of time of debating in this House, he has not, to this point, moved the adjournment of the House, which is his right to do, without any kind of impact on his adjournment of the debate. Such a motion is non-debatable and should be put to this House at this time.

The Acting Speaker: That being the case, the motion is in order. I have no alternative.

The House divided on Mr Kormos’s motion, which was negatived on the following vote:

Ayes 10; nays 36.

The Acting Speaker: The honourable member’s motion, much to my surprise, has been defeated. What are you going to do now?

Mr Kormos: I am going to carry on.

The Acting Speaker: It being almost 1:30 in the morning, I thought someone would like to know that we are discussing, under orders of the day, item 51, resuming the adjourned debate on government notice of motion 30 on time allocation --

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker: When you are the Speaker, you will be able to do what you want to do. I am the Speaker, so I can do what I want to do. It is going to be a long morning, I can see that --

An Act to amend certain Acts respecting Insurance.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: I was carrying on and was interrupted and I finished off.

Mr R. F. Johnson: We are on a time allocation motion, and that is what we are discussing. It would be very good if you could read it all.

The Acting Speaker: Sorry. Resuming the adjourned debate on government notice of motion 30 on time allocation in relation to Bill 68 -- I did miss that; I am sorry --

An Act to amend certain Acts respecting Insurance.

Mr Kormos: I tell you, Mr Speaker, phone calls are coming in. People are calling us at 965-1224. People are phoning right here at Queen’s Park. Mr Speaker, get your pen ready because more people have called. People are calling 965-1239 and 965-1224.

A young fellow, Mike Ellis, vice-president of the Young Liberals in Markham -- his mother, Sandra, called. She, Mike, Marlene, Stephanie Ellis and Kristin Snelgrove, five life-long Liberals, are voting New Democrat in the next election because they do not want to have anything to do with time allocation and with Bill 68. This young fellow was the vice-president of the Young Liberals in Markham, and he and his family will have no more to do with Liberals in Ontario.

Mrs Connelly calls from Stratford. Her member, she says, has lost four Liberal votes. She is concerned for their children, as most people are who witness this disdain for democracy.

Rick Alakas calls from Welland with his support. I tell you, Mr Speaker, Rick is a working guy. I know Rick. He is a working guy, a factory worker. He knows what premiums are all about; he knows what premium increases are all about.

Loni Petrachenko calls from Welland and says, “We’re watching.”

Stanley Jaskof is a lawyer. He is calling from Hamilton. He thinks insurance companies have been gouging and gouging and gouging.

Rick Bingley in Lanark calls in. Honest, Mr Speaker, Rick Bingley from Lanark phoned in just moments ago and said, ‘This is what Ontarians get for voting in a majority Liberal government.”

David Ashby calls from Welland and he says he wants to move in with the Premier because if his insurance goes up any more he will not be able to afford a car to get to work and David Ashby is hoping maybe the Premier will provide accommodation. The Premier could; the Premier is a millionaire. It is true, the Premier is a millionaire. He inherited it; a heck of a way to acquire a million bucks.

Penny Malinkovitch of Niagara Falls --

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: I did not have to say a thing, did I? You know better.

Mr Kormos: Mr Speaker, it may not be important to you, but it is important to me that -- I can hear the bells ringing, I can hear those phones ringing, 965-1239. People are phoning, area code 416, 965-1239, and they are phoning 965-1224. We have people sitting right up here in this gallery who came down here to Queen’s Park, as is their right, to find out exactly what is happening here. I tell you, Mr Speaker, people across the province are saying, No way to the Liberals, no way to no-fault.”

Owen Ronson of Toronto phones in and wishes us success. He says he watches us every day. Now he is watching us every night too. It is 1:30 in the morning, Friday morning, 27 April.

You know, Mr Speaker, this is not a rerun. Oh, the Liberals are tired old reruns; they are retreads, if you will.

Mr Philip: There’s the phone again.

Mr Kormos: I think somebody should hold that door open a little bit so we can hear those telephones ringing back there.

Once again, I tell you, Mr Speaker, we are going to talk about Ralph Nader’s comments to the general government committee in just a few minutes, but Owen Ronson from Toronto calls in and wishes us great success. You see, Mr Speaker, those phone calls are important because when those phone calls stop I may just have to sit down. It is as simple as that. If those phone calls stop, we may have to give up the fight.

Laurie Hobbs called from North Bay. She says she is sorry she missed me when I was up there last Friday but she is enjoying watching us do our best to try to stop this time allocation motion.

Downsview calls: They are going to keep watching.

Paul Smith from Kitchener calls this great television. You know, Mr Speaker, what is happening here is great. Why? Because people across Ontario are saying no to the arrogance of the Liberal Party at Queen’s Park. People across Ontario are saying, “No way to no-fault.” People across Ontario are saying, “Never again to Liberal jackboots here at Queen’s Park.” Paul Smith from Kitchener calls and says this is great TV. He says he is a Tory but might go NDP. He says, “Keep it up.”

The University of Waterloo Ontario New Democratic Party Association says lots of university students are watching. They have special problems with affordability of insurance.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Kormos: Mr Speaker, Carla Brunsdale phoned up. It is 1:35 in the morning on Friday morning. The people who are watching this at home are watching this live. The people who are watching this are watching this happen live.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Interjections are out of order, particularly if members are not in their own seats.

Mr Kormos: Once again I tell you, Mr Speaker, I take those kinds of interjections as encouragement because I know that when the Liberals start squealing and squawking like that we are hitting close to home. As I told you before, I know that the drilling is hitting close to a nerve, and I appreciate that for a whole lot of Liberals this process is akin to a root canal. But you see, Mr Speaker, the problem is that they are the authors of their own misfortune.

They have got choices about whether they are going to support the insurance industry, about whether they are going to support the profits of the insurance industry or indeed whether they are going to support the people, the taxpayers, the drivers and the innocent injured victims here in the province of Ontario. The impression that is being created is that the Liberals have sold out the drivers of Ontario in favour of the interests of a powerful and wealthy auto insurance industry.

Carla Brunsdale from Toronto calls. Her family has been Liberal all of their lives. No more.

Ken Ridgewall from Windsor says Bill 68 should not pass and he is opposed to this time allocation motion. He understands that the issues are too complex to be dealt with in the simply absurd two afternoons that the Liberal House leader suggests in his motion. So Ken Ridgewall from Windsor phones in and says Bill 68 should not pass. Once again, he says he has always voted Liberal, but not again, never again. I tell you, Mr Speaker, he is telling you right now that his votes in the future will be with the New Democratic Party.

Do you remember what happened on 15 January 1990, Mr Speaker? This is what I was trying to get around to telling you before. We as a minority in the opposition had a great deal of difficulty getting the Liberals to even have that committee sit. We had a great deal of difficulty even getting the Liberals to have a committee listen to submissions here in the province of Ontario. And you know what, Mr Speaker? It was inevitable that there was just a plethora of submissions to be made to that committee by people from all walks of life.

Interjections.

Mr Mackenzie: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I do not think the members of the House should be subjected to the member opposite, who is drunk as a skunk in this House, interrupting in this Legislature the way he is.

The Speaker: Order. Would the member please withdraw?

Mr Mackenzie: The fact that he is drunk?

The Speaker: Yes, would you please withdraw.

Mr Mackenzie: As long as the public realizes what is going on in here and just how drunk he is, I will withdraw it, Mr Speaker.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Kormos: What was happening was that at this general government committee, dominated by Liberals -- there were six Liberals on it, and that is what I started telling you about a little while ago, Mr Speaker, six Liberals on this general government committee. It became clear to all of us that the demand by people and organizations and groups and bodies across Ontario to appear in front of this general government committee, the numbers were just going to be overwhelming.

Let me you this: You know that the general government committee sat during the House’s break; that is to say, it sat after Christmas, before the House resumed sitting in March 1990. Now what happens when a committee sits during a House break is that the committee members collect their regular MPP salaries but they also get paid extra money every day. They get paid what is called per diems. I do not know what it is, something like $70 or $74 a day, plus another $20 or so for a food allowance, tax-free.

So these committee members are collecting their full MPP salaries plus grabbing another $100 or so a day, give or take a few bucks, but that is tax-free. Now the good people down in Welland-Thorold who work at Union Carbide, who work at General Motors in St Catharines, who work at the Tubes, who work at the tire plant, at General Tire, they do not make $100 tax-free in a day. Do not forget what I told you: that is above and beyond MPPs’ regular salaries. But it is there.

We in the opposition prevailed upon the Liberal majority to please sit, because the committee was only going to sit four days a week, Monday through Thursday. But then the committee was only going to sit Monday afternoons. I said: “I don’t understand. You’ve got hundreds and hundreds of individuals and organizations that want to appear before this committee to make submissions about Bill 68. Each and every one of us is being paid an extra $100 or so a day, tax-free, and you don’t want to start this committee sitting until 1:30 or two o’clock in the afternoon and then you want to fold it up at five in the afternoon. Well, that it just not kosher. It does not wash with me.

Interjections.

Mr Kormos: Mr. Speaker, there is a temper tantrum going on here. It is incredible.

The Speaker: Order. Will the member for York Mills withdraw?

Mr J. B. Nixon: May I elaborate? Withdraw what?

The Speaker: Accusing the member of making misleading remarks.

Mr J. B. Nixon: With regret, yes.

Mr Kormos: I had just got the colouring book and crayons for him. I figured he was having a temper tantrum and he needed something to occupy him. The crayons are non-toxic, so if he happens to chew on the end of one or two of them, he is not going to suffer any physical ill effects. If he acts up again, we will send the colouring book and crayons over and it will cool his jets a little.

Mr Philip: He had a bad day at sandbox therapy.

Mr Kormos: Perhaps a bad day in sandbox therapy.

Once again, when I witness those types of temper tantrums here in the assembly, it encourages me, because it means that we are getting through. It means that the arguments we are making against this time allocation motion are starting to reach home. That is what it means.

Let me tell you once again about this standing committee on general government. We asked the committee to please sit Monday mornings. The Liberal majority would not permit it. We asked the committee to please consider sitting in the evenings so that working people could appear before that committee and make submissions. The committee would not. It has used its majority -- thank you, sir.

Janet McCarten and her husband, John, from Midland have been watching for weeks. They say, “Keep up the good work.” They do not want this time allocation motion to pass.

Ron Johnson from St Catharines --

Interjection.

Mr Kormos: I feel forced into reading each and every one. A man from Owen Sound called to voice his displeasure with the Liberals. He said that Eddie Sargent always stood up for the little guy, but not the Premier. He asks, “How can things open up in eastern Europe yet close down here at Queen’s Park?” That is an interesting question.

Interjection.

Mr Kormos: Yes, how can it be that things can be opening up in eastern Europe but shutting down here?

Ron Johnson from St Catharines calls in. He is opposed to Bill 68.

Interjections.

Mr Kormos: See what is happening, Mr Speaker? These phone callers are getting to the Liberals. It is driving them crazy.

Donna Harriet and Cathy McMillan call in from St Catharines, “Keep up the good work.”

Eric and Suzanne James call in from London. They want us to keep up the good work.

Arlene Rousseau -- this is the second time that Arlene Rousseau has called in. She called in several days ago. She calls in from Windsor and says her assessment of her Liberal member there is that he is on his way out.

Wayne Archer calls in from Collingwood and says that he does not know where the Liberals got the mandate to jam this down our throats. He says they will not get a majority next time. That is an interesting comment from Wayne Archer.

Four voters from Burlington: “Keep it up, you’re doing a fine job.” Another message: “Right on.”

Terry Jenkins from Ottawa is deathly against Bill 68 and even more so against closure. Here is Terry Jenkins from Ottawa, who is really close to the closure motions that the Tories are ramming through that Parliament in an effort to get the GST passed. Their clones, the Liberals down here at Queen’s Park, are using closure to ram through Bill 68. You have to understand that Terry Jenkins knows what is going on, Mr Speaker.

Why will the Liberals not listen to Terry Jenkins from Ottawa? Why will they not listen to Cathy McMillan from St Catharines? Why will they not listen to Arlene Rousseau from Windsor? Why will they not listen to Wayne Archer from Collingwood? Why will the Liberals not listen to these good people? Because they are not insurance company executives, that is why. These are working people. People from all over Ontario are telling the Liberals that they are not going to tolerate jackboot politics here at Queen’s Park.

Darcy Scott phones in from Toronto -- could be related to a cabinet minister. He calls in, “What could be more undemocratic than millions of drivers being screwed -- skewered” -- that is what he has here, not screwed; I misread that – “by a handful of insurance companies?”

Dick Foster from Scarborough calls up --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The member for Welland-Thorold.

Mr Kormos: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity, as you well know, Mr Speaker. I am encouraged and buoyed up by the rattling, ranting and raving coming from the Liberal back benches. These guys are squealing because the pressure is on. The problem is that there is some squealing coming from the back benches. I do not know what he had for supper, but it sure as heck does not agree with him.

Ron Broughton from Welland calls up. Because of them, Ron may not be able to afford car insurance next year.

Joe Petty calls. He did a poll, and I am not going to suggest that this is an Environics poll; of course it is not. Joe Petty is not on the Liberal --

An hon member: Payroll.

Mr Kormos: -- mailing list and payroll, but where Joe Petty comes from, his poll of 1,000 people shows 968 who will not vote Liberal.

Linda Frisky calls in to ask, “Why won’t the Liberals listen?” Linda Frisky is just like Joe Petty and Ron Broughton. Linda Frisky and Rick Albarico and Diane Milligan keep saying that one little voice counts. They say, “Please keep calling.” Linda Frisky calls and she says --

Interjection.

The Speaker: The member for Port Arthur, any more?

Mr Kozyra: I’m sorry.

The Speaker: No more.

Mr Kormos: John Bisson, Welland, calls in to say that he is behind us 100 per cent.

Frank Cameron from Etobicoke is talking about time allocation. We are not talking about Bill 68, because we cannot. We are not talking about the auto insurance scheme that the auto insurance industry wants implemented here in Ontario, because we cannot. We are not talking about the threshold system that the Liberals imported from the United States of America, because we cannot.

Do you understand what I am saying? The Liberals will not let us. The Liberals have this time allocation motion on the floor that prevents us from talking about Bill 68.

You know, Mr Speaker, all we ever wanted to do was debate Bill 68, but the Minister of Financial Institutions and his gang, his chorus line here in the front row, the tired old chorus line of has-beens, would-bes and wannabes -- you know what a wannabe is, do you not, Mr Speaker? -- the Minister of Financial Institutions and the Premier of Ontario and all of their has-beens and wannabes do not want us to talk about Bill 68 and the last thing in the world they want to do is debate it.

Frank Cameron in Etobicoke is one off am sure up to 1,000 people now who have called in just as this debate has resumed tonight. He is one of 1,000 people who have called to say that this time allocation motion is just plain downright unconscionable.

A lady in her 60s calls in from Kitchener. She says, “My husband and I should have been in bed hours ago,” but she waited until she got through on the phone lines. “If premiums go up as much as Bill 68 will mean, that is a simple matter of fewer people will be able to drive.”

As you know, Mr Speaker, especially hard hit are going to be the senior citizens, are they not? We know because of what we learned, well, in the Thursday 12 April 1990 edition of the Toronto Star, and this is what the lady in her 60s from Kitchener -- and God bless her for staying up late so that she can get her call through, and she has every right, because you want to know, Mr Speaker, what that lady from Kitchener is talking about?

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Kormos: The lady from Kitchener is talking about the fact that 300,000 drivers will face 80 per cent more for insurance. The Toronto Star

article by Nancy Wood --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I caution all members to be careful of their language.

Mr Kormos: Thank you, sir.

Mr Philip: Here’s some more, Peter.

Mr Kormos: Thanks, Ed.

Mr Charlton: Read them all.

Mr Kormos: John Anderson calls in from Toronto with congratulations.

Mr Charlton: Read them all.

Mr Kormos: Mr Speaker, I am being invited to read them all, and boy oh boy, we are going to read every one of these, every single one of them.

Gary Wilson from Kingston says, don’t worry, he and other viewers will pick up the fight when I stop.

Do you know where this fight is going to go to? This fight is going to go to the ballot box. This fight is going to go to the ballot box, because you want to know something, Mr Speaker? The people in Ontario will not forget what this government is doing to them right now, this very moment. Gary Wilson from Kingston says, don’t worry, he and other viewers will pick up the fight when we stop.

Elizabeth Greer from Cardiff Drive calls in with her support.

Michael Perron calls from Welland, and once again, I think this is the second time Mike Perron has made it through tonight. He sends in his 100 per cent support. The message for the Liberals is, “Get your golf-clubs out, you’re done, just like the Leafs.”

You know what, Mr Speaker? There are going to be a whole tot of Liberals who are going to have a whole lot of time to improve their golf game if they insist on ramming this Bill 68 through, because boy oh boy, they ain’t going to get re-elected.

Really, I suppose you have got to wonder. Perhaps that is an unfair thing to say, because I bet there are a whole lot of good golfers over there. Lord knows, they do not pay a heck of a lot of attention to running the government, do they? I mean, they are letting the insurance industry run this shot, so you cannot really -- they have got a lot of time on their hands. The Liberal backbenchers have got an awful lot of time on their hands, so I suppose they have a good golf game.

Here is a lady who says from her husband and herself, from Cambridge, “Congratulations.”

Frank Kutzy from Kitchener phones up and says, “No-fault insurance, the way the Liberals have sure got it planned, and the insurance industry in Ontario, is going to end up like the WCB, a mess.” Now Mr Kutzy is a seriously doubting Liberal, sort of like a doubting Thomas; this is a doubting Liberal.

Alec Economides from East York calls up and says, “Congratulations, you’re doing a fine job.”

Here is one, a regular viewer 100 miles north of North Bay: “Liberals are making the cost of everything go up. Make them stop.” To those folks 100 miles north of North Bay I say we are doing our very best.

An interesting insight from Mrs Mullens. She phones in and says we have her blessing: “Fight these immature Liberals all the way.” Mrs Mullens, we know that. That is why we bring toys like the colouring books and crayons for the Liberals to occupy themselves when they get a little rowdy. We have had to give these out before, and we have got a few sets left and there are a few Liberals here who are going to qualify for colouring books and crayons of their very own before much time goes by.

You know, Mr Speaker, somebody asked me why we are filibustering, and I have had to explain to them this is not a filibuster. This is not a filibuster, because here in Canada, here in Ontario, you cannot filibuster. I mean, more than one Speaker has told me that right here in this assembly. You cannot filibuster here in the province of Ontario. It is something that is Allen to the parliamentary system.

What you can do is debate, once you have got the floor. That is why this is my last chance to persuade 29 Liberals to vote against this time allocation motion, but I am not filibustering.

People have asked us, what do we hope to achieve? Well, ask those people who telephone us at 965-1239. Ask those people who telephone us at 965-1239, or those people who call us at 965-1224.

What do we hope to achieve? I tell you, Mr Speaker, we know that it will only take 29 Liberals voting against this time allocation motion to defeat it. We hope to persuade 29 Liberals that they like their jobs good enough to vote against time allocation so that we can have a full debate about Bill 68.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for reminding me as often as you have what the rules are. I know that I cannot stand here and simply read text. In the United States, in a system where filibustering is considered apropos, people are permitted to do that, but here in Ontario, one cannot simply stand and read a text. You know what I mean. You cannot stand and read the Bible, no matter how much you would like to. It probably would be good for all of us for me to stand up here and read a little bit of the Bible. I cannot stand here and read Mark Twain, let’s say. That is not what is permitted.

You know that I have to remain on topic, and you know, Mr Speaker, that the Speaker’s chair will reign me back in when I stray off. I appreciate that. You know that I have to work real hard to develop a series of arguments that obviously, from the point of view of debate, have some relationship one to the other but at the same time are not merely repetitive. Again, I appreciate you, Mr Speaker, in your assistance and in your guidance in avoiding mere repetition.

Look at what is going on here right now. There is not a single Tory, not a single Conservative, and there has not been one for a good chunk of time. There is a smattering of Liberals. Not even both of the siblings grim are here. Only one of the siblings grim is here. That is the Liberal whip. There he is. He just jack-in-the-boxed. Both of the siblings grim are here. Here I am with three of my colleagues in the New Democratic Party, and there we have, at 2:05 am on a Friday morning, more than a good handful of folks sitting up there in the visitors’ galleries.

If one had to describe the House at two o’clock in the morning, there have been moments in the course of this evening and early morning when there have been more spectators than there have been Liberals sitting in the House.

Interjections.

Mr Kormos: People are heckling. People are egging me on. Why, I suspect that more than the occasional member, and I suppose from any number of caucuses, may well have dozed off at least for the briefest of moments. Those things happen. What happens is that there is just an incredible wave of support coming from the public across Ontario, just phone calls and phone calls and phone calls and phone calls. The fact that people come here to Queen’s Park at one and two in the morning to watch this debate take place indicates that the interest is widespread.

Mr Charlton: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: The government whip has pointed out that there are not very many members in the House. You could check for a quorum, perhaps.

The Speaker ordered the bells rung.

Mr Kormos: That is a little bit better. It is a little bit better. I have no difficulty about where my colleagues in the New Democratic Party stand on this matter. I know that they are going to vote against this time allocation motion. I want to know where they are going to vote. We have no hesitation about how they are going to vote.

Interjections.

An hon member: Is it true that Bob Rae said --

Mr Charlton: Did you ask the people up there?

Mr Ballinger: Ask the people in Ontario.

An hon member: That is who are sitting up there, my friend.

Mr Ballinger: Get serious. Come on.

Mr Kormos: Who is that member? Darn it. I keep forgetting where that member is from because he does not make a whole lot of impression in the House. Durham-York. The member for Durham-York dismisses those people in the gallery. Those people will perhaps take that message back to Durham-York and let their relatives, their friends and their business associates know in Durham-York just exactly what is going on.

What kind of roadblocks have been put in our way? That has been asked of me. I do not know. I guess the Liberals have done just about everything they could. I know they are getting sort of panicky and frustrated and I know some of their own backbenchers were starting to grumble about how come their House leader was not doing anything about me. They were starting to feel some of the pain and pressure of people across Ontario, just like this newest collection of telephone messages.

Ray Harris from Hamilton, Ontario, phones: “Fight the good fight. Don’t let them pincer off a piece of our common law.” Ray Harris from Hamilton has that to say.

Carson Sears from Cambridge calls in. He says, “Keep up the good work.”

David Scott from Keswick, Ontario, calls. He does not understand how the Liberals can pander to the insurance companies.

An hon member: Isn’t he the brother of the Attorney General?

Mr Kormos: I do not know what relationship he is to the Attorney General. David Scott from Keswick.

Tony Pellaggi from Toronto calls and says, “Keep going.”

Tommy Glesby calls in from Welland. Do you want to know something, Mr Speaker? Tommy Glesby is a fighter too. Tommy Glesby represented Canada as a boxer in the Seoul Olympics. He is somebody about whom we are very proud down in Welland-Thorold. He is a fine young man, a fine young athlete and a fighter par excellence. Tommy Glesby calls in, a young guy who has a great future -- he may well be watching with his dad Bill and his little brother Bill Jr -- and says he is 100 per cent behind me.

I cannot think of anybody whom I would be more pleased to see with us than Tommy Glesby, a young Olympic fighter, somebody who has represented this country and represented it well. You might remember those boxing matches over in Seoul and the feistiness and just overwhelming talent of that young boy.

Lawrence Hall from Mississauga calls. He is very opposed to Bill 68.

Some people have asked me am I worried that I am trivializing the issue. Some people have asked me that. The answer is no, I am not worried about that, but I suppose that calls for a second level of inquiry. When I stand back and look at it, notwithstanding that I do not worry about it, do I regard myself, being as candid as one can be about oneself, as trivializing the issue? I say no. I say that if I ever felt that way, I would be persuaded to the contrary by the number of people who are sitting here in the galleries at 2:15 in the morning and the hundreds and hundreds of phone calls we have received tonight and early this morning alone.

Mr Speaker, it is incredible. I dare say that you, as a Speaker, have never seen anything like this, the people phoning 965-1239 to encourage us to carry on this debate, and the people phoning 965-1224. I can hear the phones ringing from where I am. The people of Ontario would dissuade me from ever suspecting that I am trivializing the issue.

We are talking about a time allocation motion. We are talking about an effort on the part of the Liberal majority here at Queen’s Park to stifle, to snuff out opposition and debate. I tell you, Mr Speaker, that debate, the role of parliamentarians, the role of members of the opposition, is so important that we are not going to relinquish it without as complete a fight as we can muster.

When I watch young boxers like Tommy Glesby fight, win as often as they can and lose some -- no boxer is any less an athlete by virtue of ever having lost a fight -- I say to you, Mr Speaker, no, I do not worry about trivializing the issue. I worry about the Liberals snuffing out democracy.

Charlotte Smagata, the Smagata family in Welland, calls in. She and her daughter were badly injured in a car accident in September. She knows that if it had happened after this legislation was passed, they would not have the compensation available to them that is going to be made available to them now.

A call came in in support for us from an insurance adjuster. He says that the companies are behind Bill 68, and suggests that companies are behind this time allocation motion too because the companies have a strong interest in making sure that Bill 68 is not thoroughly debated. He says the companies are behind it, but the employees are not. He was a Liberal; not any more.

There are more phone call coming in. These are people who are giving me the energy to stay on my feet and keep on talking. Anna Kuker calls, says thanks for the conviction and the commitment. I wish she would not use the word “conviction.” I could live with just the word “commitment,” but I understand what Anna Kuker is saying. I appreciate it very much. We appreciate it. The Liberals should be listening.

Steve French from Scarborough calls in. One hundred per cent support; that is what he said. Walter Thompson from Etobicoke. Continue on, he says.

Back on 15 January, Ralph Nader appeared before the general government committee. His commentary alone on Bill 68 and what it means to Ontarians justifies and in fact defines and gives shape to our cry for a full debate. One of the things that he pointed out he raised as a preliminary. He raised this at the very onset. He said first -- this is important because one of the critiques by the Minister of Financial Institutions of Ralph Nader was that Ralph Nader was an American. He says that the threshold system that the Minister of Financial Institutions is trying to force on some people here in Ontario a very American system, very American.

Ralph Nader came up from the United States to appear before the general government committee. You know who Ralph Nader is, Mr Speaker. Ralph Nader is a leading consumer advocate, I dare say not just a leading American consumer advocate, but probably a leading North American consumer advocate, and perhaps a worldwide acknowledged consumer advocate. Ralph Nader has taken on General Motors and Ford and the big corporations in the United States and other places. Ralph Nader is a fearless crusader for the rights of consumers.

Interjections.

Mr Kormos: He came up here to talk about what Bill 68 is going to mean to drivers, taxpayers and innocent injured victims here in Ontario. He was well aware of the criticism that had been levelled against him.

Indeed, some of the not very creative heckling, in fact pretty pathetic heckling -- that is why I am glad there are folks here, because the TV camera really does not give you an impression of what is going on -- I hear those telephones ringing; it is incredible -- the TV cameras do not give a real impression of the fact that what we have is lacklustre heckling. We are talking lacklustre. We are talking seedy.

Remember what Ralph Nader opened with when he appeared before the general government committee a week after the Minister of Financial Institutions unloaded his -- Mr Nader said, “First, I would like to indicate the interrelationship of the issues before this committee and similar issues in the United States and hope that some of the experience in the United States can be helpful.”

Now this is what the important

part is. This is very important because Nader was very conscious of the fact that what is happening here in Ontario is being watched very closely by many American jurisdictions.

Mr Speaker, I said a long time ago that I was going to loosen my tie at 1 am. Here it is, 2:20 in the morning and here I am with the tie-knot still tight. I tell you what, Mr Speaker, I am going to loosen it and I am going to undo my top button. There, that is a little more casual. Wow. That is like being reborn. Why, what a rush of energy. I told you, 10 o’clock tomorrow morning, Mr Speaker -- it has been eight and a half hours now. I think we will go on for a long, long, long time.

Interjections.

Mr Kormos: The people up here hear that nasal nattering, and I can see some of them -- it is as if somebody is dragging his fingernails along a chalkboard.

Here are more of these, Mr Speaker. Mike Perron called back. He said, “You need a third line, you need a fourth line, maybe you need five lines to handle all the calls. You probably do.”

Christine Mayne calls in from Eglinton and Yonge. She says that this government move forcing people to work long hours is bad for health and safety. I tell you this, the government move and its support for Bill 68 and its support for time allocation is bad for its longevity. You cannot expect a long lifespan when you are supporting jackboot tactics.

Bruce Henderson from Burlington calls, a lifelong Liberal, but he promises this: He has been a lifelong Liberal, but if Bill 68 does through, that is it. It is like hundreds and hundreds and thousands of other people.

Nick Trombetta calls in from Mississauga and he says, Great fight, keep it up.” Here are more phone calls that have just come in, Mr Speaker. Mr Husexin Kuday -- and I think, Mr Speaker, you would find that is an interesting name and I hope I am pronouncing it well -- calls in, “Liberals cannot be heroes without the people and they are ignoring the people.” They are.

Mildred Flowers, a senior citizen from Hamilton. Mildred or Michael Flowers? Mildred Flowers, a senior citizen from Hamilton sends deepest respect to us.

Steve Doan from Wallaceburg, Ontario. I know the family name because we have a lot of Doans living in Welland; they are good people. I do not know whether Steve Doan is related to the Welland Doans or not; he lives in Wallaceburg. He went to Tim Horton’s tonight, everybody was talking about this issue. He wishes that his member would hear the message. Steve Doan called in and wishes his Liberal member would hear the message.

Sean King from Oshawa says he speaks for 15 people when he says, “Keep it up.” Will the Liberals pay for his transportation when he can no longer afford to drive? So Sean King from Oshawa, there you are.

Paul Barrett from Agincourt says, “I want to drive my car in Toronto.” He supports this opposition to time allocation because you see that is -- once again, these people understand far better than the Liberals sitting here do, how important it is to have full debate.

Tom Moase from London. “Keep up the good work,” he says. ‘Unprogressive Liberals” -- that is what he calls this government. He says they are a disgrace.

David Russel Kinner, a York University student, says, “Keep up the fight. Bill 68 scares a lot of people just as a debate or the prospect of a debate scares the daylights out of the Liberals.”

Todd Jameson from Cambridge says, “Keep on going.” He is an ex-employee of Wardair.

Jim Smerdon of St Catharines calls in and says, “This debate should be considered as a referendum on Bill 68.” Jim Smerdon of St Catharines says he was a Liberal, but as of tonight, he is no longer.

Tom McGahey is the secretary-treasurer of Canadian Union of Public Employees Local 794 in Hamilton. He phoned in with his support. Do you know something? I bet he speaks for a whole lot of people.

Dick Foster from Scarborough calls in. He says, “Keep up the good work.”

Again, I tell members, if it were not for people phoning in like they have been, we just would not have the energy to carry on with this discussion. It is as simple as that.

Darryl Goudreau from Sudbury calls in and says, “Kill Bill 68.”

Mitch Tyler calls in from London. He says, “Thanks to the good work of the New Democrats the voters may yet see the last of that evasive little” -- we will leave that as it is. In any event, Mitch Tyler from London -- and I appreciate very much Mr Tyler’s comments, but the problem is that there is a comment here describing, I guess, some London member that would be unparliamentary.

Interjection.

Mr Kormos: I will tell members what he said. He says, “The voters may yet see the last of that evasive little” -- he is talking about someone who is relatively short.

Bob Sterling from Oakville calls in. Bob Sterling says that the opposition is doing a tremendous job and the government should be put in its place. The government’s place should be over here in the third party’s status. That is where the Liberals may well end up if they keep on carrying on with this crummy time allocation motion. He is in the trucking business. Most truckers are opposed to this legislation.

Jean and her husband Roy called from St Catharines. Jean and Roy say: “We’re behind you all the way. We’ve always been Liberals, but now we are not so sure.” Jean and her husband Roy from St Catharines say, “What are the Liberals afraid of?”

It is people like Barry Edson who have long-time documented careers in the Liberal Party who have written letters dumping the party. The very best he can say is, “Say hello to my Liberal ex-friends here at Queen’s Park.”

Ross Battle calls in from Welland, 100 per cent behind us. He has been following the debate for a week. We know that because Ross Battle called in last week.

Herman Turkstra was another author of another lengthy and eloquent letter.

Greg Hemple from Port Dalhousie calls in. Greg Hemple has been watching for eight hours and that is pretty good because I have been speaking for around eight and a half. Greg Hemple from Port Dalhousie calls in and says that he is never going to vote Liberal after this.

Bill Cox from Bruce Mines says: “Liberals are not listening to their constituents. See you at the polls.”

Gail from Haileybury calls this evening. She telephoned through because there were people answering the phones at 965-1239. She says that we are fighting for the ordinary people.

Isaac Chung from North York phones in with 100 per cent support.

A lady calls in from Kingston. She did not leave her name, but she says, “Peter, we have a dictatorship in Ottawa; we don’t need one in Toronto.”

Brian Adset calls from Burlington. He says that the Liberal member for his riding -- that is the House leader -- refused to debate this bill in the riding. Brian Adset says that he is not about to vote Liberal or for that member again.

Paul Russell from Toronto says that he cannot afford to live here, cannot afford to drive here. What next?

I have to say that I would be getting tired now if people were not phoning in. I would be getting tired and I would feel compelled to give up if people were not phoning in. That is why we have people answering the phones at 965-1239. There are people answering those phones right now and I know that sometimes it takes 30 minutes, sometimes 60 minutes, sometimes longer to get through. People have told us that. But I am so grateful and, more importantly, the taxpayers and the drivers of Ontario are all that much more grateful for those phone calls.

So the people who call at 965-1239 -- I hear the telephone ringing more and more and more. That of course is area code 416. We are here in Toronto at Queen’s Park at 965-1239. Of course, the other number they can call is 965-1224.

All I can tell them is that we appreciate their calls. Their calls are a real source of energy to me. People like the member for York South and other members of the NDP caucus are answering those phones right now at 2:35 in the morning here at Queen’s Park.

Mr Philip: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: do you recognize a quorum?

The Acting Speaker ordered the bells rung.

The Acting Speaker: I am advised that a quorum is present.

Mr Kormos: You will remember, Mr Speaker, that -- gosh, when was it -- last week we gave away a copy of the book One Hundred Monkeys to Chuck Bougie of Terrace Bay. We gave away a copy of a videotape of last Thursday’s debate to a Barrie resident for sending in his torn-up Liberal membership card.

I mentioned this a couple of times. I have an autographed copy of this book called The Tabloid Zone, Mr Speaker. I want you to have a copy of it because it is written by William J. Thomas, who is a prominent columnist here in the province of Ontario carried by quite a number of newspapers, written several books of Leacockian humour, and a screenwriter. I suppose the most decent thing he did was the script for the made-in-Canada TV movie about the development of the Trivial Pursuit game. So from William J. Thomas an autographed copy of William J. Thomas’s book The Tabloid Zone. It is a collection of among his most humorous columns.

I tell you that it is superseded shortly by a book about Malcolm his cat. Bill Thomas wrote the other day -- and you might have heard that right here at Queen’s Park during members’ statements I read some lengthy excerpts from Bill Thomas’s letter to me about his awareness of how important pets are, especially to seniors. Remember? Bill Thomas had some really harsh things to say about politicians who would not protect the rights of seniors to keep pets in their homes.

He was talking about seniors who were in, let’s say, housing designed for them, or private corporate apartments, who are deprived of the opportunity to keep pets. So he is an incredible guy, an incredible writer, an incredible humorist.

I have an autographed copy of The Tabloid Zone to the -- why this book is remarkable, because one of the features in it is the

article “Dancing with the Four-Armed Man.” If there ever was a Liberal, he is undoubtedly the four-armed man, because he can manage to pick your front pockets, your back pockets, take your wallet, your watch and grab you by the ankles, turn you upside down and shake every last nickel and dime out of you. That is so characteristic of the Liberals here in Ontario.

So “Dancing with the Four-Armed Man” is a very appropriate thing to give away in this context of an arrogant Liberal majority. Do not forget the number is 29, we need 29 Liberal backbenchers to vote against this time allocation motion. So the 29th phone call that mentions The Tabloid Zone will get a free copy, autographed, of The Tabloid Zone by William J. Thomas, and you will enjoy it. Bill Thomas and The Tabloid Zone to the 29th caller, the 29th caller who calls in at 965-1239. Do not forget, that number is 965-1239, or at 965-1224.

So we have a whole bunch of phone messages here, but the 29th message to mention The Tabloid Zone gets a free copy of an autographed The Tabloid Zone by William J. Thomas, a scriptwriter, screenwriter and author.

Domenic Velluci is not voting Liberal again. He phones in with his 100 per cent support. That was Domenic Velluci who just called. John Battaglio from Greensville calls in and the message is started, “By the time this bird government is finished” -- I suspect that the person taking the message felt that the balance of it was going to be unparliamentary, in any event.

Mr Philip: What’s a bird government?

Mr Kormos: I am just cautious. I would not want to say anything uncomplimentary about the government -- unparliamentary. That is not my style, Mr Speaker, you know that. It is not my style.

Peter North from Oshawa says: “Please don’t give up. They won’t either.”

Mr Philip: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Is there a quorum?

The Acting Speaker ordered the bells rung.

The Acting Speaker: I have been advised that a quorum is present. So, who has the floor?

Mr Kormos: I do, Mr Speaker. I have the floor. The reason I got it is the people who are phoning in. If it were not for these phone calls, if it were not for the fact that the Liberals know that people are watching right now, they would find some way to shut me up. They would find some way to shut me down, but they cannot as long as they know that people are watching. We can show to them that people are watching because of the phone calls we are getting. Is that not right?

Ron Deslauriers from Onaping calls in. He has been watching since he got home from the afternoon shift. He has been watching this as long as you have, Mr Speaker. You and Ron Deslauriers have a lot more in common than you think. He has been watching since he got home from the afternoon shift. He says: “This is history in the making. The Liberals should stop hiding behind the numbers and start debating.” All we have ever wanted to do was debate Bill 68, and the Liberals will not let us. That is what this time allocation motion is all about.

Dave Allen from Toronto calls and says: “Don’t give up. If you don’t, we won’t.”

Audrey Carey calls us from St Catharines this evening. It is quarter to three in the morning. This is Friday 27 April 1990. Audrey Carey calls from St Catharines, says, “Stomp on those Liberals.” No, no. You see, it is they who have the jackboots. It is they who want to snuff out democracy. So Audrey Carey calls in. She knows what is important. I have a feeling that Audrey Carey has lost any confidence that she ever might have had in the Liberals here at Queen’s Park. Do you know that, Mr Speaker?

I suspect that Audrey Carey has lost any confidence she ever might have had in the Premier of Ontario and the Attorney General, in the House leader, in the whip, in the Minister of Financial Institutions. I am sure that she has lost all confidence that she ever had.

Ms Duquette calls from North Bay. She says: “Pete, keep up the good work. Somebody has to stop them.”

Gail and Phil Rash from Unionville said they have been to three information meetings about Bill 68. The insurance companies simply did not show up. That has sort of been my experience, because I have been to a whole lot of information meetings about Bill 68, and the Liberals never show up. They do not want to debate Bill 68 here at Queen’s Park; they do not want to debate it out in communities across the province either. That is what this time allocation motion is all about, their refusal to debate Bill 68.

Jay Rotman says he wishes the Liberals had given more thought to Bill 68. Lawrence Hall asks, “Are the Liberals going to pay for my full-body armour?” Gail and Phil Rash in Unionville, Ms Duquette in North Bay, Lawrence Hall, Peter North in Oshawa, John Battaglio from Greenville, Dominic Velluci, these are all people whom the Liberals will not listen to, because they are not insurance company executives. To the Liberals of Ontario, these good people simply do not count.

Manon Lepaven calls and says she was Liberal. She says Bill 68 is wrong. Bill 68 is simply no good. Why does the Premier, Manon Lepaven asks, refuse to permit a debate about Bill 68? There have been some answers suggested. It is clear now that the overwhelming public opinion is that Bill 68 is bad legislation and has to be dumped, so it would seem that the Premier is not afraid of what he is going to do to public opinion, because the public in Ontario rejects Bill 68 completely in any event.

What the Premier is afraid of is the fact that there are 29 Liberal backbenchers in his caucus who want to keep their ridings. What the Premier is afraid of is that one, two, three, 15, 20, 25, 27, 28, 29 Liberals, just like the two Tories who broke ranks up on Parliament Hill -- I mean, you are talking about sinking ships. There are Liberals here who realize that the water is coming in faster than it can be bailed out. There are 29 Liberals here who can be guaranteed --

Mr Philip: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not believe there is a quorum.

The Acting Speaker: I have been advised that a quorum is present.

Mr Kormos: Does that mean I am on again, Mr Speaker? Manon Lepaven calls in and says she was Liberal, she is not any more. She says, “Bonne chance.” I appreciate that. Manon Lepaven says she is going to keep watching. She says this is better than First Choice. You want to know something? She does not have to pay for this, either.

It has been a long night so far, and it is going to be a lot longer. We have a whole lot of Queen’s Park staff here who are putting in double and triple duty. They have to be here. Their sense of commitment to their job is that they are simply not going to walk away. These are men and women with families. They have been called away from those families. They do not, as I understand it, have the right to refuse overtime, so it is not a matter of choice on their part.

I suppose to a large extent that is in keeping with the general Liberal approach to workers. Before you know it, this government will have these same workers working on Sundays. This government shows no interest in protecting workers from having to work Sundays. That is clear when it comes to its view on Sunday shopping. So all I want to say, Mr Speaker, is a sincere thank you to the staff here at Queen’s Park -- the security staff, among others -- who are doing double and triple duty.

They have shown great patience, they have shown great tolerance and they have managed to maintain a sense of humour throughout what must have been for some, if not most, if not all of them, a tedious past nine hours. So I simply want to say that all of us acknowledge their contribution to this process and thank them for simply being here and acknowledge that it is a hardship for them and their families.

Al Cutler called in at 1:35 this morning from Downsview. He is fearful of the increases that almost one third of a million drivers in this province are going to face if Bill 68 is passed. That is premium increases of up to 80 per cent. He wonders if the decreases are merely for the Liberals. But Al Cutler says to carry on and keep it up. I tell you, we will.

David Fleming called from Collingwood at 2:06 this morning. It is just a couple minutes shy of three o’clock now. Mr Fleming said what a treat it was to watch us try to protect the democratic system.

I tell you, Mr Speaker, people like David Fleming are so important to this process that is taking place here. People like David Fleming are the ultimate watchdogs, are they not? If it were not for people in this province who showed an interest, who showed a passion for justice and fairness, the Liberals would just run roughshod over literally everything. So you see, David Fleming, Al Cutler and Michael Corte -- he is from Burlington -- these are the people who are the real safeguards in our society. But you see, these are the same people who the Liberals want to guillotine.

These are the same people who the Liberals want to impose their time allocation on. These are the same people who the Liberals want to muzzle, because when you muzzle the opposition, what you are doing is muzzling the voice of the people of Ontario.

Interjection.

Mr Kormos: Sure, the voters, the taxpayers, the drivers and the innocent injured victims. That is who is being muzzled.

Mr Gorham from London calls, and he says his family voted Liberal always. His uncle was a reeve of Bertie township.

You know where that is, do you not, Mr Speaker? Down in Niagara. Bertie township has a long, wonderful history. As a matter of fact, just the other night we were up at Niagara-on-the-Lake, where volunteer awards were being given out, five-year, 10-year, 15-year awards. The Minister of the Environment was there on behalf of the Minister of Citizenship. We had a whole bunch of people from Welland-Thorold receiving well-deserved awards, people from Vive-la-Joie, people from the Welland Lacac, people from the Thorold reed band. There were also people from the Bertie Township Historical Society. So his uncle was a reeve of Bertie township. It has a great history.

Somebody says he has been watching for four hours and he is pleased. Paul Hope from Cambridge -- well, there is hope. Paul Hope from Cambridge is totally opposed to what the Liberals are doing. Maybe Paul Hope was there --

Mr Farnan: What happened in Cambridge in September 1987?

Mr Kormos: The member for Cambridge is going to have to wait until it is his turn, and that is going to be a long time from now.

Paul Hope from Cambridge -- I have a feeling that maybe this gentleman was there when the Premier of Ontario, back in September 1987, three days before the general election of that year, said that he had a very specific plan to reduce auto insurance premiums. That is why Paul Hope calls us at 965-1224 or 965-1239. That is why these phone calls are important.

It is going to get tougher and tougher; there are no two ways about it. It is three o’clock in the morning and people out there are getting tired of the Liberal arrogance. People out there are getting tired of the Liberals refusal to debate Bill 68. So it is going to be harder and harder for us to keep phone calls coming in. Do you know that, Mr Speaker? It is going to get harder and harder, no two ways about it. Things are going to slow down for a couple of hours. I am going to be able to go through the 100 or so phone calls that we have not been able to talk about yet.

You know the ones, Mr Speaker. Ones like Richard Rousseau from Windsor. Richard Rousseau is opposed to Bill 68. He says, “The member for Windsor-Sandwich will be forgotten after the next election.” I do not think it has to be that way, because the member for Windsor-Sandwich will probably find himself a job somewhere around Windsor. He is not an old man. Richard Rousseau is perhaps being overly harsh to suggest that the member for Windsor-Sandwich should be merely forgotten. So to Richard Rousseau in Windsor we say thank you.

Jeanette Deacon calls and commends me for my zeal and honesty, and I thank Jeanette Deacon for her comments. She says, “The Liberals are penalizing older people and are going to drive up the cost of OHIP.” You see, Mr Speaker, Jeanette Deacon has been following these discussions and understands how Bill 68, with its subsidization of the insurance industry through OHIP, is going to drive up the cost of OHIP and take away much-needed money from that health care system. Jeff Spingsted --

Mrs Grier: We have a winner.

Mr Kormos: Thank you. A winner from Mississauga, Sharon Buntin, number 29. That is exactly how many Liberals have to vote against time allocation and against Bill 68 so that they can (1) keep their ridings in the next election, and (2) show the people of Ontario that they are not on the side of the big auto insurance industry but on the side of the people.

That is why it was the 29th call. Sharon Buntin from Lakeshore Road in Mississauga wins this autographed copy of The Tabloid Zone by my good friend William J. Thomas, a columnist, humorist, writer and, as I say, author of a soon-to-be-published book on a number of columns about Malcolm, his cat. The publisher is Jag Communications in Hamilton. The cover photo was done at Pupo’s Super Market in Welland, which is just around the corner from where I am at Bald and Dennis. Pupo’s is on the other end of Maple Avenue. It is up there by Maple and Riverside Drive.

Pupo’s is a great place and the Pupo family has been operating that family grocery store for years and years. Great business people, great grocers.

The phone number to call is 965-1224. I need your calls. If that line is busy, people can call 965-1239. Of course the area code is here in Toronto, area code 416.

The photo has, among others, Margaret Thomas in it, Bill Thomas’s mother. His 83-year-old mother is in the jacket photo here. Margaret Thomas is the mother of more than a couple of Thomases: Bill, a brilliant and very talented writer, columnist and humorist, and his brother Dave, who is the local registrar of the Supreme Court in Welland.

So this book will be sent out to Sharon Buntin of Lakeshore Road East in Mississauga with our best wishes. William Thomas has autographed it. We are going to get some autographs of the NDP caucus and, just like the One Hundred Monkeys book, any Liberal who wants to be re-elected and will vote against Bill 68 will also be permitted to autograph this book for Sharon Buntin.

Jeff Spingsted in Hamilton says he is behind us 100 per cent. “It is time the Liberals woke up and smelled the coffee.” That is what Jeff Spingsted says.

Interjection.

Mr Kormos: Mr Speaker, catch this one, and if the Attorney General would please calm down and clam up for 30 seconds -- this one is important.

Dave from Barrie phones in. He is not in favour of Bill 68 but, for each hour that I talk, Dave will donate $10 to a charity. He can pick whatever charity he wants.

It is 3:10; let’s see how much money Dave contributes to charity, and it is time now to move adjournment of the debate.

The House divided on Mr Kormos’s motion, which was negatived on the following vote:

Ayes 7; nays 24.

Mr Kormos: It has been difficult for the people who are witnessing this to have to live with these 30-minute interruptions. The good music that the good staff play is -- here are more phone messages -- sometimes soporific. It remains that a whole lot of people may well think that is not going on. Well, it is going on, let me tell you. It is carrying on.

We have been talking last night and this morning, because it is 3:45 now, since six o’clock last night -- that is just shy of 10 hours -- trying to persuade the Liberals here that they are barking up the wrong tree and that the people of this province expect far more from a government than they are getting from these Liberals. As is sometimes my style, I almost said “these clowns,” but I meant these Liberals here at Queen’s Park.

Ken Lawrence from Welland called in and said he wonders why the Liberals work so hard for the insurance companies. It is strange that Ken Lawrence would want to know why the Liberals work so hard for the insurance companies. He has a distinct impression that a whole lot of people do in this province.

As Ken Lawrence says, he is wondering why the Liberals are so beholden to the auto insurance industry here in Ontario. Why? Was it the mere $100,000 and change that the Liberals got in the last general election by way of contributions? Is that what makes them so beholden? Is it something else? What does the insurance industry have on the Liberal Party of Ontario? Have they got photographs? Or just some of the letters? Why is this government and why is the Liberal Party so beholden to the insurance industry in Ontario?

People like Ken Lawrence from Welland called in to this number, 965-1224. I know it is late at night, early in the morning, but I also know that there are people out there watching and listening, just as there are people who come up here to sit in the gallery to see what is happening in their Parliament right here at Queen’s Park in Toronto. That is why people are calling in, 416-965-1224. That is why I want people to phone in and let us know what they think about what is going on.

They can be like the hundreds and hundreds of other people who have called in tonight witnessing what is happening right here at Queen’s Park. I know it is tough for people at this time of the morning to get to their phones and punch out that number, 965-1224 or, if that number is busy, 965-1239.

As you know, Mr Speaker, the number that people have been calling all evening and all morning is 965-1239 or 965-1224, right here at Queen’s Park. They can be a part of the process that is happening right here and right now.

People like Veral MacLean from Bowmanville knows Bill 68 is no good. He knows that we in the opposition are doing what we ought to be doing, fighting bad legislation.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Please do not interrupt the member speaking. Would you take your places, please.

Mr Kormos: Thank you, Mr Speaker. A little bit of sober thought would be appropriate right now, because people who are listening would find this a sobering observation. It may be futile for me to speak of anything as a sobering situation for some of the members here tonight, but I tell you, people like Veral MacLean from Bowmanville is deadly serious about his concern about what the Liberal Party here in Ontario is doing to this Legislature. I hear those telephones ringing right now. The telephones are ringing back behind me right now.

Bob and Linda Goss and Tonya called up at 2:12 this morning. Bob works at General Motors. They live down in Dain City. You have heard me talk about these folks here in this Legislative Assembly not too long ago. Linda Goss is the director of the local Red Cross and she works just incredible hours making great contributions to her community, and Tonya, who is just a delightful young lady, was Miss Winter Carnival in Niagara, Miss Niagara and, just a month ago, was crowned Miss Teen Canada right here in Toronto. She is a delightful, bright, capable young person who possesses a cornucopia of talents, who has a wisdom and maturity far beyond her really youthful years, who lives in Dain City.

Mr Philip: She does not even live in Welland.

Mr Kormos: Well, Dain City is the south part of Welland. It is a small community. As a matter of fact, Dain City is where Bill Thomas comes from.

An hon member: Did he not write a book?

Mr Kormos: He wrote a whole bunch of books. Bill Thomas is one of the greatest humour writers here in the – Mr Speaker, I showed you this, did I not, The Tabloid Zone by Bill Thomas -- William J. if you do not know him? This book goes to Sharon Buntin. She won this book earlier this evening.

But to Bob and Linda Goss and Tonya, Miss Teen Canada -- and we are very proud of her and so is her school. She is a student in grade 12 at Notre Dame Collegiate in Welland, an outstanding student, an outstanding athlete. She is involved in the peer tutoring program at her school. She is a youth volunteer with the Red Cross, and now she has added to all of that a very busy agenda doing appearances as Miss Teen Canada.

They call and they say. “Don’t give up.” I say God bless them, because they are great people to have stayed up until 2:12 in the morning. I tell you, it is a great inspiration to hear from hardworking, committed community people like them.

Norm McIntyre from Mississauga hopes there is not a Liberal sitting after the next election. I tell you, there are going to be Liberals after the next election -- of course there are -- but there are going to be a lot less Liberals here after the next election than there are here right now because, you see, the people of Ontario do not like seeing closure imposed by the Liberals here any more than they like seeing closure imposed by Brian Mulroney and the Conservatives up on Parliament Hill.

Interjections.

Mr Kormos: Look what has happened once again. We are getting close to a nerve. They are starting to squirm; they are starting to squeal. They are starting to holler. They are starting to scream. Time for another shot of Novocain.

Mr Kube in London phones in and says, “More power to you.”

Greg Hemphill from St Catharines tells us we are doing a great job. He says, “Tell the Liberals to go away.” Go away. Go, farther, farther. Do you know what, Mr Speaker? With the Liberal attitude towards democracy and debate, this Legislative Assembly right now could do with a little bit of Liberal going away. We cannot make them go away. They have a majority here that is as arrogant and supercilious as any government has ever been, either in this province or any other province. People of Ontario know that. But the voters of Ontario can sure make them go away. Do you know what? Come next general election, the voters of Ontario will.

Tell you what I am going to do right now, Mr Speaker. Let the Liberals call an election right now. Let them call an election, end this debate, and we will put it to the electorate. Let’s do it. Get the House leader here. Get the Premier here. Get whatever they have here and call an election. The people of Ontario are quite ready to go to the polls on the issue of auto insurance, people like Dave Allen.

Dave Allen knows that auto insurance, as it is contemplated by Bill 68, is going to suck $46 million in the first year alone out of OHIP. That is what Bill 68 is going to do. I appreciate hearing that from Dave Allen. He is right.

Donna has been an insurance broker for many years. Listen to this, Mr Speaker; there is support for Bill 68 in the province of Ontario -- from the insurance industry. Donna, an insurance broker for many years, says Bill 68 is the best thing that ever happened to the business. From a personal point of view, it makes her want to get out of the business. That is an insurance broker here in Ontario.

Mrs Grier: I took the call.

Mr Kormos: The member for Etobicoke-Lakeshore took this call from Donna, who has been an insurance broker for many years. She is phoning in here at four in the morning. Donna says Bill 68 is the best thing that ever happened to the auto insurance business here in the province. You bet your boots -- a billion-dollar payday for the auto insurance industry in the first year alone.

Mike Freeborn in Brantford -- catch this -- asks, “When did the Liberals turn into Ottawa Tories?” It is not “did they?” It is “when did they?” Remember that we have been telling you for a long time, Mr Speaker, that Liberals are Tories too. Remember the closure motions that Brian Mulroney has been bringing in Ottawa to force the goods and services tax on to an electorate that does not want it? Remember Brian Mulroney? He is still there, using closure to force GST through the federal House, and down here --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Kormos: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I appreciate the chance to talk to you. I appreciate telephone calls from people like Mike Freeborn in Brantford, who asks, “When did the Liberals turn into Ottawa Tories?” What this time allocation motion demonstrates is that Liberals are Tories too. Take Brian Mulroney, and he might as well be the Premier of Ontario. Take the Treasurer of Ontario, and he might as well be Mike Wilson. The problem is that Liberals are Tories too.

M. Vino from Cambridge calls and says, “The Liberals aren’t doing us any good.” That is an understatement. The fact is that with the time allocation motion, the Liberals are doing some real harm.

Carl Gillis from Ottawa calls this morning. Here it is four o’clock on a Friday morning, 27 April. The milk trucks are starting to do their deliveries. One of nicest things about where I came from in Welland is that Sunnyside Dairy used horse-drawn milk carts up until as recently as around 15 years ago. In view of what the Liberals are doing to our environment, perhaps Sunnyside Dairy would have been well advised to have kept on with the horse-drawn milk carts.

Carl Gillis from Ottawa is opposed to time allocation. He says: “This is attracting attention from all over the province of Ontario. Ask the Minister of Tourism how he is voting on this issue.” The Minister of Tourism’s voters are concerned about where he stands on Bill 68. That is why I would love to have an election on this. I would love to have the Premier walk in here.

Steve Lalanne from North York calls the Liberals machiavellian. Once again, this is a tough one for some of those guys, because you are talking about a historical reference and I think it has been a long time since the prince has ever been in Classic Comics. But “machiavellian” is perhaps giving them a little too much credit. None the less, I am not afraid to tell you what Steve Lalanne of North York thinks about the Liberals. We are not afraid to talk to Steve Lalanne. That is why this closure motion is so dangerous, but it is a closure not just of the opposition but of the people of Ontario.

Robert Hood from Sarnia says, “If they spend so much time trying to fix the standing orders, why go to closure?” That is why they make a time allocation motion. They want to utilize their vast majority to force their way with a motion right through the standing orders. These guys are taking the standing orders and just chucking them. They are gone; forget it. As long as this government is prepared to abuse this majority in the manner that it is, forget the standing orders.

Mike Bunton from Mississauga had mentioned the book. Brian Pychell from Thorold comes in; he was the second person to call mentioning William J. Thomas’s book The Tabloid Zone. He says, “Keep up the good work.”

James Johnston from Chalk River, the third person to call about The Tabloid Zone, William 1. Thomas’s book, says, “Keep up the good work.”

Giz Lim from Toronto, the fourth person to call in mentioning William J. Thomas’s book The Tabloid Zone, calls to say that she supports us.

The message that David Krangle from Mississauga left is, “No-fault is bull -- ” and I am sure he must have meant “feathers” after that, “No-fault is bullfeathers,” because the person taking this message just put a stroke after “bull.” Maybe he figures David Krangle meant, “No-fault is bull.” Okay. He was a Liberal through and through, but David Krangle from Mississauga says, “No more, no way, never.”

It took Steve Nielson from Hamilton two hours to get through, but he says, “Congratulations.”

Lori Desjardin from Welland phones us this morning and she says, “It is so obvious to all viewing what is happening here last night and early this morning, that the Liberals are puppets and the insurance companies are pulling their strings.” She says, “Pete, cut the strings.”

George Mann from Niagara Falls says: “The Tories, the Conservatives in Ottawa are skewering everyone. The Liberals say they oppose the Conservatives yet they are doing the very same thing.” George Mann from Niagara Falls knows that the Liberals are doing some skewering of their own.

An hon member: How do you spell that word?

Mr Kormos: S-c-r-e-w-i-n-g.

Colette Lecompte from Thorold is watching this in the early morning hours and says, “Keep up the work.” You bet your boots.

Robert Hay from St Catharines says: “The Liberal refusal to withdraw shows refusal to listen to people. Never voting Liberal again.”

Barry Lansburg from here in Toronto says, “Thank you for standing up for us.”

Those are all people who called us at 965-1224 here at Queen’s Park. Or, if that line is busy, they have been calling on 965-1239. That, of course, is area code 416.

Remember 15 January? Ralph Nader was here at the general government committee. I started telling you a little while ago, Mr Speaker, that Nader very specifically acknowledged the relationship between what was happening specifically in Ontario with Bill 68 and what could be happening in the United States as a result of the Ontario phenomenon. Mr Nader said, “Certainly, I have seen enough state legislative hearings citing Ontario and British Columbia and I hope that my remarks will be considered in that broader context.” What Nader was saying is that what happens here in Canada is not in isolation.

What happens here in Ontario with respect to Bill 68 is being observed very closely by other jurisdictions. He already indicates that he has been involved in a number of state legislative hearings wherein the Ontario and British Columbia experiences are being cited.

Do not forget that just a week earlier the Premier of Ontario had dumped all over Ralph Nader at that same general government committee. He did not have the courtesy to meet Nader when Nader was here, to address Nader head on.

Bill Cain from Rexdale calls in. He says: “Get the Premier out of bed. We all need some comic relief.”

“Second,” Nader said, “it does seem clear that any discussion of insurance and motor vehicle accidents inevitably extends to an inclusion of issues of justice and fairness for injured people.” What he is doing, when one listens to his comments, is explaining what his perspective is, where he is coming from. He says that a discussion of insurance and motor vehicle accidents inevitably leads to a concern, to addressing attention to what is fair and just for injured people, which means the legal framework or the legal system of rights and remedies.

“It also involves overall broad auto accident prevention policy of the same jurisdiction,” another important point, something about which Nader is undoubtedly a leading expert. It inevitably and similarly involves discussion of auto accident prevention. He says, “You really cannot separate any of these three from one another.”

Nader goes on to say something about the United States which is oh so well known here in Canada, because this very same phenomenon happened right here in this country. Nader says, “Since the contrived insurance liability crisis started in 1985 in the United States” --

Mr Allen: Contrived, that is the key word.

Mr Kormos: Precisely. You remember, Mr Speaker, the Brampton motorcyclist case. That was the one that put city councils and boards of education and --

Mr Charlton: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Could you see if there is a quorum present in the House?

The Speakcr: I will certainly ascertain if there is a quorum.

Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Journals: A quorum is not present, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker ordered the bells rung.

The Speaker: A quorum is present. The member for Welland-Thorold may continue.

Mr Kormos: Quorum, as we all know, is when Liberals are over in their caucus room instead of here in the Legislative Assembly.

Interjections.

Mr Kormos: It is not our job to keep a quorum.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The member for Welland-Thorold.

Mr Kormos: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Do you ever watch Saturday Night Live when they do a little skit called The Whiners? Well, here we are. This is The Whiners. I wish people could sit and watch. You listen to it, but sometimes the tone of voice sets you right on edge. It is like the sound of fingernails scraping against an old slate blackboard. I wish they would stop whining.

Keith Craig from Kitchener says: “Just got off work. Furious at the auto insurance bill.” Not an NDP supporter, but supporting us. “Disgusted with Liberal catcalling.

Keith Craig from Kitchener says they are not listening. That is the whole problem, because the Liberals do not listen to people like Keith Craig and they do not want to listen to people who want to speak on behalf of Keith Craig. They want to listen to the auto insurance industry, they want to listen to the big developers, but they do not want to listen to the Keith Craigs of the world from Kitchener.

We are not afraid to listen to the Keith Craigs from Kitchener. We just wish that we could find 29 Liberals who would vote against this time allocation motion. One is coming over. I do not know whether she is going to indicate her opposition to the time allocation motion or not. I have had private conversations with more than a few Liberals who are deathly afraid of what Bill 68 is going to do to their political careers.

Mike Hunt gave us a call. He says, “Keep up the good work.”

Dave Fleming calls and says, “Elected members lose when they get complacent.”

Ingrid Barty says the Minister of Labour will not get her vote.

We have Nader operating from three basic premises and he says you cannot consider each one of them in isolation. Then we have Nader talking about the contrived insurance liability crisis in 1985 in the United States. We are all familiar with that same phenomenon right here in Ontario. That was the Brampton motorcycle case, the $6-million judgement, one about which -- some of these guys better check their history -- there was not a single penny paid out by the insurance company during the whole course of that litigation. Once the appellate courts finally dealt with the judgement, there was not a penny paid out.

In the interim insurance liability costs went sky high all over the province and of course every single insurer is telling every single insured that the reason for those sky-high prices is judgements like the one that happened in Brampton. Yet when the appellate courts overturned that, so that the insurance industry did not have to pay out a penny, did the insurance industry similarly roll back the prices that it had charged? No. That was the contrived insurance liability crisis, the same as what Ralph Nader was talking about in 1985 in the United States of America.

Nader indicated that at the point of the contrived liability insurance crisis in the United States he had been very concerned about policymakers taking too narrow a focus on the more immediate perceived urgency of insurance rates without getting down to the fundamental cause of claims in the first place. Do members hear what Nader is saying? He is saying that what you do is you get down to discuss the fundamental cause of claims in the very first place and the rights of injured people to protect themselves as a consequence of their injuries, as well as the administrative process in the courts and regulatory agencies.

I was there when Nader said that to the general government committee, and I saw the blank look on more than a few Liberal faces. They simply did not understand what Nader was saying.

So Nader tried to simplify it. He tried to put it in language that even the Liberals on that committee could understand. He said:

“Look; for example, if this committee were considering the damage done by leaking of water in homes in Ontario, and the focus was entirely on how do we pay for the damage, how do we pay for the subsidence, how do we pay for other expenses, obviously we would all be asking, ‘Well, why don’t we focus on the cause of the leak?”’

Well, why do we not deal with prevention as a top priority? That is the question. That is the question John Bates of People to Reduce Impaired Driving Everywhere would ask this government on, I am sure, a daily basis if he had the chance. But no, the Minister of Financial Institutions dumps all over John Bates of PRIDE.

Hugh O’Brien from Sault Ste Marie, his family admitted Liberal for three generations, ready to swing to the NDP.

Jane Seymour from Oakville does not like what the Liberals are doing, says they are wasting money.

Ross and Doreen Henshaw from Hamilton -- he says two Liberal MPPs that he knows are going to have a hard time getting re-elected if they vote for Bill 68.

Mrs C. White from Port Colborne hopes that we stay on top of this all night, and by goodness, we darn near have beca