ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 45A - 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 18 JUNE, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Ruaaell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, Jamea E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.WJ. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilaon PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER,Hon. VIc SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKI� Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. Jamea Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thomp!>on La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Con cordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Rus sell St. Norbert Asslniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrow·. Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flln Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP IND NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 18 June, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa, I beg to present a petition of the Agricultural Community District of Newdale praying for the passing of

An Act to amend

an Act respecting the Agricultural Community District of Newdale. MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS Thunderstorm -June, 1984 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister responsible for Emergency Measures Organization. The weekend delivered a series of exceptionally heavy thunderstorms and rain to different communities in the province.

I'm particularly concerned about communities such as Elie that stretch immediately west of the city. Can the Minister assure me that Emergency Measures Organization's people have been in contact with municipal officials in these afflicted areas? MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Government Services. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, there was quite a heavy rainstorm Saturday, I believe - over the weekend - and we had one request from the R.M. of Cartier for assistance in that there were a number of basements that were being flooded and the pumping facilities were unable to lift the water quickly enough to prevent some flooding of basements. We immediately dispatched our municipal emergency advisor from Portage to Elie and steps were taken to locate pumps and the assistance of the Hutterite Colony and also the resources. Some rental pumps were able to maintain the problem under control; that is the latest information I have.

Everything seems to be in order at the present time. There was some flooding in the City of Winnipeg, some basements were flooded; however, there were no provincial resources called upon to deal with the situation in the City of Winnipeg. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for that response. A supplementary question to the same Minister.

Particularly in the case of the community of Elie, the situation was compounded with power failure and hydro failure at the same time, which made it impossible for many of the businesses, communities and residences that had their own pumping facilities to be able to take advantage of them. Will, under these circumstances, Mr. Speaker, the government be looking at that situation · in Elie for any possible assistance? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, the preliminary report that we have is that everything is under control.

We do not know at this time if there was any major disaster that took place and until we have more information we'll have to take it under advisement and review what happened there. We will be, of course, depending on the municipality to provide the information, and they will certainly be in touch with my office if it is felt by them that there should be some review as to whether or not there should be any assistance at this point and time. We can only wait for further report. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, again I thank the Minister for that response. Bills, calling of MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Government House Leader. I note that on today's Order Paper no additional bills were introduced for first reading. Does that indicate, Mr. Speaker, through you to the Government House Leader, that all bills are now before the House that are going to be considered during this legislative Session? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I have not had an opportunity to do a check on the status of all the legislation which I would normally have done this morning. I'll take the question as notice.

I believe we are at or are near completion of the legislative package. I believe there may be one or two bills which have been introduced for first reading, but have not yet been distributed. lt had been my hope that they would an be distributed by the end of last week; those that are outstanding will certainly be distributed within the next couple of days. I'm not sure that there are any more bills for first reading. I don't believe there are, but I'll confirm that tomorrow. Milk prices MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I had a question for the Minister of Agriculture, but since the Premier dealt 2027

Mond•r. 18 June, 1184 with some of the subject matter which I wished to ask questions about last Friday, I would address this question to him and would ask him, in light of the concern that has been expressed now over the weekend to many mem bers of the Legislature, with regard to the Milk Prices Review Commission's formula for the sale of milk, could the First Min ister inform the Legislature whether or not the Milk Prices Review Commission is holding meetings and discussions with small retailers and distributors to learn first-hand the plight of these people under this new policy that has been issued? MA.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , I believe there are meetings. I would take that question as one of notice. M. A. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, since this particular policy, which has been enun ciated now and is being put into effect by the Milk Prices Review Commission, affects basically the small retailers and the small distributors and really is working at a disadvantage and helping the larger dairies as well as the large chains, would the First Minister give the undertaking that he will, through his Minister of Agriculture, instruct the Milk Prices Review Comm ission to take Into consideration the problems faced by these small retailers, many who are now saying this is virtually going to force them out of business? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I dealt, I thought, with those questions on Friday in respect to the overall impact and the fact that In the vast majority of cases there was greater stability, in fact, saving. There were exceptions to that case. So I would simply ask the honourable member to avoid oversta ting or generalizi ng in respect to the

preamble of his question. MA. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for La Ve rendrye. MA. A. BANMAN: Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister again, in light of the fact that it Is being now demons trated by very many small -I'm talking about small family store operatio ns, I'm not talking about Safeway or SuperValu who goodness knows can look after themselves and who this policy seems to be benefiting; will the Minister not und ertake to apprise himself of the problems that are being faced by these very small entrepreneurs who are strugg ling to make a living in this province and make changes within this commission structure to recognize the fact that we want to save these small entrepreneurs in this province? HON. H.

PAWLEY: . . . the information that I wanted , which in fact, I had disclosed to the Chamber during the discussion that we had on this issue on Friday mor ning that -and I wou ld be interested if the honourable member has any specifics, I refer to specifics rather than generalizations that indicate otherwise -that indeed amongst retailers in Winnipeg, the one particular case that has been referred to frequently is an isolated one, it is an exception to the general rule and that in much more common which is conveniently ignored by the honourable member is the fact that there are reduc tions taken place in smaller Winnipeg retail and convenience stores, and it's my understanding that three to six cents a litre; larger retail prices, if any, showing little change, there are probably still some exc eptions in respect to that.

Also, I had Indicated Friday, if you recal l, in the Chamber, Mr. Speaker, in respect to this same question, that currently In those provinces where there are uncontrolled price systems, where rebates run rampant, that the prices are much higher than those prices which exist in those provinces where there are more effective control measures. So, Mr. Speaker, I think it is important that the honourable member be cautious and wise in the utilization of his statements to avoid sweeping generalizations that may not be accurate. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MA. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker , thank you.

I was wanting to address my question to the Minister of Agriculture, but I'll direct it towards the First Minister; it follows on the answers he has just offered to my colleague. The First Minister indicates that we don't provide specifics. I wonder if he would cc-nflrm that he has received a letter from the proprietor of the Sanford IGA Store, because I have a copy of that letter and I believe the First Minister has also, laying out the specifics of that particular store. I am wondering if he could confirm that he has received that letter . HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot confirm that, I will take the question as notice. MA. C. MANNESS: Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, in light of the fact that this particular letter, which the Premier will have an opportunity to read no doubt in the near future, points out that under the old policy ret ailers, like this particular store and many like it, were given an opportunity to make 14 percent gross profit on sales, and unde r the new policy the fact that consumers are now paying 7 percent more and the retailers' profits are dropping from 14 percent to 8 percent with the large proces sors making up that large difference in terms of profit; my question to the First Minister is, how does this new policy help consumers, how does it help small stores which will now be · laying off staff as indicated by way of this letter and how does it help the consump tion of milk and the livelihood of many dairy producers in this province?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Agricultur e had indicated, and there are a number of que stions included within the general statement, it will stabilize the price of milk in respect to smaller convenience stores. it ce rtainly stabilized the price of milk in respect to rural parts of the province and also insofar as the northern parts of Manitoba are concerned. Mr. Speaker , much of this does relate back to the changes which took place by way of legislation in 1980 under the administration that prevai led prior to the present New Democratic Party Gove rnment of this province.

I'm wondering if the honourable member would like to volunteer whether or not he has had some change 2028

Monde� 18 June, 1184 of heart or some change of thinking in respect to the wisdom of the legislation that was introduced by the then Lyon administration in the Province of Manitoba that eliminated the effectiveness of milk control pricing in the Province of Manitoba? I'd be interested in knowing from the honourable member whether or not there has been any change of heart on the part of honourable members across the way to the legislation that they pushed through this House, I must say, with significant opposition, as you can recall, Mr.

Speaker, by members of the opposition, I think during the spring Session of 1980. MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I'm sure you'd rule out of order any answer to the question, the challenge from the Premier, that I might like to afford to his question. My final question, Mr. Speaker, on this matter. The Premier talks about helping those rural areas.

Again, I remind him, this letter came from Sanford, Manitoba , I would ask him, in view of the fact that again this letter indicates that the invoice value for the same amount of milk on June 8th to this particular retailer increased 9.6 percent, can the Minister tell me what he and his government are going to do to protect the shift of not only milk sales away from this particular area but also ether grocery items to the very large retailers? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, as I have indicated, the instances where, in fact, the recent regulations have been most affected had been in regard to smaller Winnipeg retail and convenience stores rather than large retail stores. I will be looking at the letter that the honourable member refers to, and we will certainly be bringing into this Chamber response in respect to the points that had been raised by the company from Sanford. lt may very well be one of those exceptions, Mr. Speaker. I think we have to ensure we look at the overall situation as was done by the Minister of Agriculture in this Chamber last Thursday.

Royal Visit MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. A. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister whom I believe is responsible for details of the Royal Visit. I'd like to ask him whether he can provide an indication, just in general terms, of the number of staff and the length of time that preparations have been made for the Royal Visit to Manitoba which includes Winnipeg, Thompson, Brandon and Dauphin? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would be most anxious to provide as much of that information as is possible, and probably the honourable member would like to attend my Estimates, which I believe would be coming up in the next day or two, in which we could have a thorough discussion at that time as to the preparations that have taken place in respect to the Royal Visit, commitments undertaken, etc., as well as arrangements that have been made, in the process of being made, the province's input in connection with the Papal Visit which is to take place, as the honourable members know, in September. MR. A. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd also like to ask the First Minister whether the government has received any communications from the Federal Government in regard to the possibility of suspending preparations for the Royal Visit, because of the possibility of a federal election? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it is a little soon to anticipate correspondence from the Federal Government in this respect. We don't know. There could very well be a disruption, of course, of the Royal Tour.

That depends upon the policy of Buckingham Palace as to whether or not the Queen and Prince would continue their visit to Canada even during the term of a federal election. I feel, Mr. Speaker, that if the Federal Government does call an election during that period of time, that the Federal Government should assume some of the commitments that have been made by non-federal government authorities in that case, if they do decide to proceed with a federal election and that results in the cancellation of the Royal Visit at this late date. MR. A. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would agree with the First Minister on that point and ask him whether any of the costs of the Royal Visit and the staff and time, etc. are an obligation of the Federal Government or whether in effect the cost of the trip in the province is fully borne by the Provincial Government? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't wish to mislead the honourable member in respect to any details except that, in general, matters pertaining to inter-provincial travel, security arrangements, etc. are the responsibility of the Federal Government.

Transportation and/or communication within the province is generally the responsibility of the Provincial Government and matters purely of a municipal nature - municipal event - are the responsibility of the particular municipality in which the event is under way. lt might be more helpful to the honourable member, again so I not mislead him, that we have a more thorough discussion as to the breakdown during my Estimates. Aboriginal self-government MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs.

I wonder if the Minister can advise if land claim allocations are being negotiated with Indian leaders from the Indian Birch Reservation near Birch River at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, the member should be aware that the question of entitlement is not established by the Provincial Governme nt. The question of entitlement is established by the Office of Native Claims 2029

Yonder. 18 June, 188ot - ONC - a federal agency, and I have no knowledge whatsoever of a claim being put forward by the band near Birch River. He would be better advised to check with the Federal Department of Indian Affairs to ascertain whether there has been a claim made with respect to entitlement. Attorney-General, Dept. of • Appointments MR. SPEAKER: Oral Questions. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, last Monday the Attorney-General indicated that he and the Premier and the Clerk of the Executive Council, appointed by the government, conducted the final interviews on the appointment of the Deputy Attorney-General recently announced by the Attorney-General. Mr. Speaker, could the Attorney-General indicate whether the selection committee, which he had established prior to those interviews, interviewed Mr. Elton and recommended him for consideration by the Attorney-General? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: No, Mr. Speaker. The applications of Mr.

Elton and one other person came in subsequent to the first level interviews and were considered at the second level interviews. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the appointment of Mr. Elton as the Deputy Attorney­ General has caused considerable concerns within the Civil Service - within the Attorney-General's department and outside in the legal profession, Mr. Speaker - I would ask the Attorney-General, once again, to ask what particular skills or attributes will Mr. Elton bring to the Department of the Attorney-General? HON. R.

PENNER: I would have hoped that the appointment of the very senior deputy in this government would not be made the subject of political backbiting in the way in which it is now coming across. An appointment has been made of a very distinguished civil servant who comes here in a completely non­ political way and whose attributes among others are a strength with respect to policy and planning and with respect to Inter-governmental relations. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Attorney-General to indicate whether he is of the view of whether or not the skills and attributes are not available from the existing personnel within the Attorney-General's Department? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. A question seeking the opinion of a Mi nister is Improp er. Perhaps the honou rable member would wish to rephrase his question to seek information. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Attorney-General whether or not those skills he refers to are not available from within the existing personnel within the department? HON. R.

PENNER: I answered that question last week, Mr. Speaker, and I'll answer it in exactly the same way this week as I did last week. I can assure the Member for St. Norbert if he asks me next week the answer will again be the same. If he intends to ask it the week after, should we be here, I'll be pleased to give him a printed copy to save both of us and other members of the Legislature the time.

There was a national competition, an interview process, the involvement in addition to the persons whom he mentioned today of the head of the Civil Service, and in the result of looking at a balance of skills that were exhibited by all of the applicants, a number of decisions were made which resulted in the appointment not of one but of three people, and what I think is going to be about one of the best management teams in an Attorney-General's Department in the country. Thunderstorm, June, 1984 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakawa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health. Has the Honourable Minister received any calls concerning the backup of sewers after the heavy rain last Saturday, people requesting information as to whether there will be financial compensation coming to them through the backup of sewers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, Mr. Speaker. MR. A. KOVNA TS: Is the Honour able Mini ster considering compensating those people who suffered losses because of sewer backup? HON. G.

LECUYER: I understand that according to past procedures, anyway, householders have insurance that covers that; and secondly, this to my way of understanding, anyway, is a municipal matter. Mosquito control MR. A. KOVNATS: I would direct another question to the Honourable Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health. In this morning's paper there was an ad under Clean Environment Commission, Mosquito Control Program. The program was advising that out at Birds Hill Park there would be spraying once each d&. June 25 to 27, 1984, to protect patrons of the W nnipeg Folk Festival.

A little later on it says, anybody likely to be affected by the ... MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. A. KOVNATS: Yes, I'm just getting to it, Mr. Speaker, but it says anyone likely to be affected by the order to make presentation to the Commission no later than June 28th. June 28th is one day after the 2030

Monday, 18 June, 1984 spraying occurs. Is this the policy of the Provincial Government? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, I shall refer to that

article as well. Obviously there must be some mistake. MR. A. KOVNATS: A supplemental question to the Honourable Minister. The mistake that is being referred to, is this the mistake to be considered as a typographical error that the government always resorts to? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Would the honourable member ask questions for information and not to be frivolous or sarcastic? The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the Honourable Minister. Is this a typographical error? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable member listened to my response a little bit before, he wouldn't have a question at this time, unless he is trying to be funny. MR. A. KOVNATS: Not to be humorous, Mr. Speaker, because the use of insecticide, malathion, is the one that is being used. I don't think that can be considered humorous, frivolous in any way, Mr. Speaker. The question was meant in earnest and I would request a reply in the same manner in which the question was asked. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, any time I am given a serious question, I shall provide a serious answer.

Now, if the member across listened, he got the answer. Assessment policies MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I'm wondering if the Minister can indicate what assessment policies are in effect in respect to assessing buildings, buildings used upon farms that are part of the Farm Vacation Program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not aware that the Farm Vacation Program changes the status of any buildings under the assessment program, but I'll take the question as notice and determine if there is any special policy. But I'm not aware of one to date. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Minister for that answer, and I hope he will take some effort to look into what assessment practices are being used in regard to that particular program. lt has come to my attention that today a fair number of owners of small farms who are allowing their farms to be used under this program and who are receiving gross revenues in the $1,500 to $2,000 area per year for all the trouble they go to in providing a home are having taxed their houses and buildings.

I'm wondering, therefore, if the Minister will be able to report quite quickly to the House as to spec ifically what the assessment practices are and whether he intends to change them, if, in fact, this has happened. HON. A. ANS TETT: Mr. Speaker , in view of the additional information the member has provided in support of his question, clearly, if the matter relates to sources of off-farm income, as opposed to farm income or the definition of farm income, then

Section 30( 1) and 30(2) apply and the member is aware of those sections. We discussed them in detail during my Estimates. If the member is alleging that there has been a change in policy, that change could only take place with the Minister's sanction. No such sanction has been given. If the member wants a speedy answer, that certainly is my commitment. I've always brought answers back to the House as quickly as possible. I'm not aware of any change in the policy.

Certainly the whole question of assessment reform bears on the removal of all of those exemptions and I am pleased that members opposite have supported the government throughout in that direction of reform. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the government, through the Destination Manitoba Program, has encouraged in many cases owners of small farms who have been part of this Farm Vacation Program to build buildings so as to provide a better service, to bring together urban and rural Manitobans under this particular program, my question to the Minister or the Premier is, does the government now have a different view as to the usefulness of the Farm Vacation Program, or in fact, are they going to continue to heavily assess and tax in many cases, through this particular tax, farmers who provide their residences and their buildings to that program?

HON. A. ANSTETT: This government's support and commitment to the Farm Vacation Program as part of the responsibility of the Minister of Small Business and Tourism in this province remains very strong. There has been no reason to change that. Mr. Speaker, however, if the honourable member is advising me, through his question, that there has been a change in taxation policy, then there is some difficulty because the member asked exactly that question. I've committed to providing the member with the information that he asked for. Mr.

Speaker, it seems unbecoming that he would then provide an answer to the House to a question that he has said he wants as information. Northern Union Insurance Company MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister of Consumer Affairs, who is responsible for the Superintendent of Insurance, and would ask him if he could now confirm contrary to the answer he gave to me on June 5th that the Receiver for the Northern Union Insurance Company has, indeed, 2031

MondiiJ, 18 June, 1884 filed a statement of claim against the Toronto-Dominion Bank for some $4.2 million. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General . HON. R. PENNER: I'll have to take that as notice. The member is asking me to confirm someth ing. I'll have to check first the answer he alleges I gave him to a question, presumably that was during Estimates, and secondly , to check that information with the Superintendent of Insurance. If I have made an error in commun icating information, I'll be the first to correct it. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker , on June 5th, I asked the Minister the same ques tion, at which time he said the action was only being contemp lated and that it had not comme nced, and I believe the Statement of Claim was filed on April 16th, which was about two months ago. Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that the action has commenced, would the Minister now be able to inform the House whether or not the successful action on behalf of the Receiver will indeed make a substantial difference to people who now have claims in to the Receiver with regard to losses sustained when Northern Union was placed into receive rship? HON. R.

PENNER: Mr. Speaker , the question really contains its own answer. Clea rly, if we're success ful, as against the Toronto-Dominion Bank, in recove ring a pool of $4.2 million for the policy holders, then subject to another matter which is to be litigated as between the receiver and B.C. Hydro, clearly , the policy holders will be very much better off. In any event, the member seems to have been able to confirm for himself the date of the action. I'm happy to have him supply me the information. I'll take it from wherever I can get it, but I'll check it with my department in any event. Hydro power - sale of MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Energy and Mines. In the power sale announced last week , the Minister said that there would be approximately 3.2 billion of revenue and 1.7 billion of profit. In the remaining 1.5 billion of cost to the province, is there a charge for interest? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Ye s, Mr. Speaker , I believe the mem ber, if he wants to go through all this, will have the opportunity at the Public Utilities Committee later this we ek. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, just so that we can have some of this information in advance, I'm raising some of these que stions now with the Minister and I would ask him if he could ind icate then, in the case of the Interest charge, whether that is a proportionate amount, whether that interest bears a proportion to the 500 megawatts that bears to the total output of the dam. Is that a similar ratio? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I think this is a matter that is best discussed before the Public Utilities Committee. Hydro has a normal way of amortizing their plans and that's over a 67 year period. MR. B. RANSOM: Perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, I didn't make that plain enough. My question was not about the amortization of the construct ion costs, but about the interest charge against the approximately $3 billion that will be involved. I'm interested in knowing whether the Interest cost included in the $1. 5 billion bears some relationship to the sale, the size of the sale, relative to the capacity of the dam? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Spea ker, Hydro will be amortizing the plant over 67 years, the way it has amortized all of the plants. lt has the power sale for 12 years, which will provide revenue of $3.2 billion. Over that 12 years it will have costs that it has to absorb. Those costs are in the order of $1.5 million in relation to this particular sale. That yields a profit estimated in the order of $1. 7 billion, Mr. Speaker, and we are left with a Hydro dam that is fully owned by the people of Manitoba for its use into eternity. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , another question then.

In the first full year that the cost of the dam is being borne, assuming approximately $3 billion costs, the annual interest charge could well be in excess of $400 million at today's interest rates for one year. I would ask the Minister then, what proportion of that annual interest cost of over $400 million would be charged against the sale of 500 megawatts that was announced last week? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker , again, that's a question best dealt with in detail at the committee, but that would be a proportion because we will have something in the order of 1,275 megawatts being produced for the people of Manitoba for either internal consumption or sale. And that's quite a significant profit, Mr. Speaker , that we will be able to make over a period of time. That is quite different, Mr. Speaker, from other altern atives which would have produced no profit whatsoever over 25 years. No profit over 25 years; no gain to the people of Manitoba over 25 years. We now have the potential, Mr.

Speaker, of gaining a profit for the people of Manitoba of $1. 7 billion and providing 17,000 jobs for the people of Manitoba. North of Portage development MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Government Services. Could the Minister inform the House as to what mistake he made with 2032

Monday, 18 June, 1984 respect to the expropriation of the land north of Portage Avenue? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorne y-General on a point of order. HON. R. PENNER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, there is a bill slated for debate on that. The matter with respect to which a question has been asked has been ordered for debate in the remaining weeks of this Session, and that matter can best be dealt with in the appropriate time when the bill is called for seco nd reading. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the First Minister a question. Does the First Minister suppor t retroactive legislation? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, if it is dealing with a matter which is essential and necessary and can be fully justified, then certainly that will be, in fact , the subject matter of the bill that the honourable member is making reference to when it's finally introduced for second reading. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, does the First Minister feel that it is reaso nably justified to retroactively pass legislation to validate an expropria tion where the inquiry officer has recommended against it, where the province does not know what is going to go on the prop erty, where there are no plans yet formulated, and when the effect of this is to remove successful small businesses from their operation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member has moved from a general question to a very specific question relative to Bill 28, which was distributed this afternoon,

an Act to validate an expropriation under The Expropriation Act , standing in the name of the Attorney-General . I submit, Mr. Speaker, that questions in debate on that matter should take place under second reading. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, if there are no other questions, I wanted to make a statement of a non­ political nature. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I felt it would be appropriate to point out to honourable members that the Manitoba Society of Seniors is holding their very special Olympics which carries on from today, June 18th, to June 21 st at Sargent Park School and other sites throughout the city. I think that we would all want to wish the senior citizens of this province, who have come from many di fferent parts of Manitoba to participate in this very special event, the very best of success and fun in demonstra ting their talents and their skills as seniors during these very im portant days on their part. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to join, on behalf of the opposition, with the Premier in extending best wishes to the Manitoba Society of Seniors for their program of Olympics that they are carrying out and to say that we know that seniors have been expanding their activities.

Certainly a great deal of expansion took place when we were in government and programs instituted and the Society of Seniors does an excellent job on behalf of the senior citizens of Manitoba, and we certainly join with the Premier and his colleagues in commanding them and wishing them well in this endeavour . MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for The Pas. MR. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like leave to make a non-political statement. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. H. HARAPIAK: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure all members will want to join me in congratulating Roger Schwegel who is the first Manitoban in yesterday's marathon. He was only 10 seconds behind the eventual winner. The year before he was the first Manitoban, fifth over all. This kind of effort should be commanded. The Manitoba Marathon has done much to help raise funds for the Canadian Association of Mentally Retarded, with the co-operation of all Manitobans and all those in the race as well as those sponsoring.

Even though there was excessive amounts of water on the marathon route, there were over 3,000 people who participated in the marathon. Once again, congratulations to Mr. Schwegel and all those who participated in the marathon. COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Aiel. MRS. D. DODICK: We have a committee change, Mr. Speaker. On Public Utilities, the Member for Concordia substituting for the Member for Seven Oaks; and on Economic Development , the Member for The Pas for Wolseley; and the Member for Flin Flon for Transcona. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. 2033

llondar, 18 June, 1814 HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, would you please call second reading on Bills 10 , 15 , 21 and 27, that is, as they appear on the Order Paper, excepting Bill 14, and then, Sir, adjourned debates on second reading of all the bills standing on Pages 2 and 3 on the Order Paper. SECOND READING BILL NO. 10 - THE FAMILY MAINTENANCE ACT HON. R. PENNER presented Bill No. 10,

an Act to amend The Family Maintenance Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Although amendments to The Family Maintenance Act are extensive, they are in the main quite technical. Rather than take up the time of the House In a full oral explanation at this time, I'm tabling extensive explanatory notes prepared by the head of the Family

Section In the Department of the Attorney-General and will now provide a brief oral explanation of the more significant changes so that the Member for St. Norbert and other members of the House who wish will have a fuller document In addition to the shorter explanatory notes. Virtually all of the amendments deal with matters pertaining to the enforcement of maintenance orders, something about which I've had occasion to speak in this House before.

These amendments are really related to the amalgamation of the County Court and the Court of Queen's Bench and the creation of the Family Division of the Court of Queen's Bench, which will be proclaimed as of July 1st, and four years of experience in the enforcement field since the last substantial changes were made. it's proposed to put into place a screening process to deal with the many relatively minor matters which arise in enforcement cases. Of course, Mr. Speaker, there's an increasing volume of these cases and the more we could screen the better.

The screening proceedings will take place before a court officer appointed as a deputy registrar - this will be from existing staff, not new staff - and will be instituted by a designa ted officer by means of a summons, served upon the defaulter who will then be required to appear before the deputy registrar to give evidence with respect to his or her employment, income and similar relevant matters.

The power of the deputy registrar to make orders as a result of this preliminary examination is very limited because it is a preliminary screening process. it's intended that any matter which is complicated or controversial will be dealt with by a master or a judge, both, of course, judicial officers. Only where there are no issues in serious dispute will the deputy registrar be able to make an order.

For example, the deputy registrar may make an interim enforcement order, but only if there has been an application for variation of the order, cancellation of arrears filed, written verification that the person in default is unemployed, and that the person - the defaulter - has proposed an acceptable interim payment plan.

So in these kinds of circumstances the deputy registrar can make an order, but not otherwise. lt shall also be noted that where a person does not respond to a summons to appear before a deputy registrar, or fails to comply with an order of the deputy registrar, a warrant will be Issued to bring the matter before a master or a judge. The new enforcement procedures provided for In these amendments also permit the master of the Family Division in the Court of Queen's Bench to hear contested enforcement matters which have not been resolved through the screening process. The repeal and re­ enactment of

Part V of the present act dealing with the enforcement of maintenance orders, in addition to accommodating the new procedures of which I have been speaking, provide for a reorganization of that

part in order to introduce a more logical order and to more fully reflect the actual process which has evolved over the past four years. Provisions dealing with enforcement proceedings before a judge or master are new and will apply throughout the province and will also apply , let me say, whether or not the screening process has been used, because in some instances it may not be if we don't have the proper officials in place. The present Family Maintenance Act does not clearly set out the procedures to be followed where a show cause hearing takes place.

That, Sir, you will know is a hearing where someone who's in default is asked to show cause why they should not be penalized for being in default. In the past the provisions of The Family Maintenance Act have had to be read together with the provisions of The Provincial Judges Act to confer on that court, that is, the Provincial Judges Court, the power to hold show cause hearings and enforce maintenance orders.

We've always, Sir, in the department been uncomfortable with the fact that the procedures to be followed and the authority of the court to make enforcement orders have not been clearly set out in one piece of legislation. In addition, as it is intended that the master of the Court of Queen's Bench will hear the majority of the enforcement matters in the Winnipeg area - Winnipeg, St.

Boniface, Selkirk, Beausejour - it is necessary to include provisions in the act which will clearly give her the power to hold this kind of hearing. it is therefore an appropriate time, that Is, when the amalgamation, County Court, Court of Queen's Bench and the creation of the Family Division are taking place, to provide a solid legislative basis for enforcement hearings. The enforcement hearings contemplated in the amendments follow then the procedures which over time have been developed In the Provincial Judges' Court, but now we clearly set them into place and give them a statutory basis.

As I've indicated, such hearings will take place before the master of the Court of Queen's B�nch - Winnipeg, Selkirk. In the outlying areas of Manitoba, these hearings will continue to take place before a provincial judge. Under these procedures then, a person in default brought before a master or judge, usually after a screening process, either by a summons obtained by a designated officer or by means of an order made by the deputy registrar, the purpose of the hearing is to allow the person In default to show cause why the maintenance order should not be in force. 2034

Mondll y, 18 June, 1984 I draw to a conclusion , Sir, further amendments set out the types of orders which the master or judge may make where the master or judge has made an order for payment, either by means of a lump sum payment or by means of periodic payments, the master or judge will be permitted to attach a penalty clause to this order. The most useful of these penalty clauses, albeit a hard one, provide that upon a failure to make any payment as ordered , the person in default may be imprisoned for a period of not less than 30 days.

That is very rarely resorted to and would only be resorted to in those instances where of course the person has the ability to pay but is wilfully defying an order of the court. Finally, there is a new provision which clearly states that which is recognized at law and in the judgments of the courts, namely, that enforcement for failure to pay a maintenance order does not have the effect of discharging either the order or accumulated arrears in maintenance payments. I commend this bill to the House, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Pembina, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 15 - THE CANADA-UNITED KINGDOM JUDGMENTS ENFORCEMENT ACT HON. R. PENNER presented Bill No. 15 , The Canada­ United Kingdom Judgments Enfor cement Act for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, this is really a technical bill, but nevertheless one of considerable importance to Man itobans. lt really relates to the civil process and the process of enforcing a judgment once it has been obtained.

Prior to the end of this year, the U.K. Is expected to exceed to the European Communities 1968 Convention on jurisdiction and the enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters. Under that convent ion , that is , the European Communit ies Conve ntion , judgments handed down by the courts in the subscribing countries of the European communities will become enforceable in other countries which are parties to the same convention.

This could mean , for example, that the assets of a Manitoban situated in the U.K. could be seized to enforce a judgment handed down in any of the countries of the European communi ty which exceed to the same convention. The difficulty with this is that many of the European communities claim jurisdiction over for eign nationals on a basis which is considered unsatisfactory by us, by us not only in Manitoba, but by Canadian jurisdictions generally. For example, they might claim jurisdic tion merely because some property of the defendant, no matter what the value may be, may be situated in the particular countr y.

To follow the example through, and this, Sir, is only a hypothetical example, but it's one which makes the point. A plaintiff could secure a judgment against a Manitoban in Italy based on the defendant having a $10 bank account in Rome and thereafter moved because of that to seize a $50,000 asset successfully in the U.K. To avoid this situation , which we think in appropr iate, Canada has negotiated a separate convention with the U.K. which would cover ·a ny provinces which adopt this Canada/ U.K. Convention. If the Canada/U.K.

Convention is brought into force before the U.K. accedes to the European Conv ention , then to that extent it supersedes the European Convent ion, at least insofar as it affects the enforcement of judgments against persons resident in a province which adopts that Convention. Now, boiling that down , the net effect of this would be that judgments would not be enforced in the U.K. against Manitobans other than on the same substantial jurisdictional basis which we normally use within Manitoba itself.

Although this would provide a somewhat easier enforcement of U.K. judgments against Manitobans, it would also provide an easier method for Manitobans enforcing judgments against U.K. residents, but altogether it would safeguard us against inappropria te actions in some of the E.C. countries which do not have anything like the same jurisdictional rules we have.

In short , what is proposed here is a pre-emptive strike, which if taken in time, that is, before the end of this year and hence it's introduction into the Legislature at this time, would safeguard Manitoba residents against inappropriate judgments secured In E.C. countries acceding to the 1968 Convention. As I say, this Is being introduced because the U.K. is expected to accede to that E.C. Convention before the end of the year.

According ly, it is recommended to the House that the bill be enacted at this Session so that Manitoba and Manitobans can have the advantage of Manitoba becoming a party to the Canada/U.K. Convention before the U.K. enters into the E.C. Conv ention. I recommend this bill to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norb ert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, one question. Could the Attorney-General indicate which individual or group recommended this bill to the Attorney-General? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Chief Legislative Counsel Mr. Rae Tallin. MR. G.

MERCIER: I move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside, that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 21 - THE LAW SOCIE TY ACT HON. R. PENNER presented Bill No. 21 ,

An Act to amend The Law Society Act, for second reading. MOTION preHnted. 2035

Monder, 18 June, 1114 MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A. PENNEA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Most of the proposed amendments to The Law Society Act are technical or curative in nature. Amendments of a more substantive nature deal with the following matters: a provision that one of the two faculty benchers sitting on the governing body of the Law Society shall always be the dean of the faculty. Prese nt provisions call for two faculty benches, but neither of these positions is a designated position, and one would then become a designated position, appropriately to the dean.

Second ly, the granting of a power to the society during the course of an investigation to be able to ret ain and review the contents of a solicitor's files without necessarily seeking and obtaining a client's consent for such purposes. The amendments, nevertheless, carefully safegua rd matters which would ordinarily be subject to solicitor-client privilege. An amendment to allow a lawyer found guilty of professional misconduct or incomp etence by the judicious committee of the society to appeal such a finding within 30 days.

Amendments allowing students at law articled with the Crown to appear at maintenanc e enforcement proceed ings in the Family Division of the Court of Queen's Bench. Students, Sir, are pre sently able to do this in the Family Division of the Provincial Court but with jurisdiction in such matters, moving to the Q.B. at the end of this month, this amendment becomes necessar y.

An amendment to allow students employed but not articled by lawyers in private practice, and those participating in the Faculty of Law Legal Aid Clinic the same rights of appearance in court as students who are under articles or participating in an accredited clinical training program at the Faculty of Law.

For example, subject of course to the rules of court, this amend ment would permit a student at the Legal Aid Clinic, just as it now allows a student who has articled or who is in an accredited clinical training program, to appear in certain interlocutory and relatively minor matters either in the Provincial Court or in the Court of Queen's Bench. Again, an amendment enables a member to pay out trust funds to the society , that is, to the Law Socie ty, where the whereabouts of the client cannot be ascertai ned. This of course takes place after 10 years.

The necessity of carrying trust balances for many years or making court applications is obviated, that is, after 10 years of holding a trust balance and being unable to locate the client, the practitioner pays it over to the Law Society rather than having to maintain it in an individual solicitor's account. Let me say in conclusion, Sir, that all of these ame ndments are brought forward on the recommendation of the Law Society. Nevertheless, I have perused them very carefully and I am pleased to bring them forward as a government bill. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Attorney-General. lt has been traditional, as I understand it, that amendments to a self -governing profes sional act have always been brought into the House as private members' bills and not as government bills, as the government has just indicated. I wonder if he could explain why he has brought this forward as a government bill rather than, as has usually been done in the past, as a private members' bill. HON. A. PENNEA: Simply, Mr.

Speaker , given the short time left in this Session to ensure that it can be appropriately ordered as a matter of government business and brought forward to completion before the end of the Session, that's the only reaso n. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Mem ber for Pembina, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MA. SPEAKER: Bill No. 27 -the Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. A. PENNEA: I wonder, Mr. Speaker , if it would be in order to just give us a minute.

The Minister of Finance is here with the bill and if the members of the opposition would give leave to just hold the proceedings for a moment. - (Interjection) - Wel l, he's counting the mone y. A MEMBER: lt's all in pennies. MA. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. PENNEA : However, if the House would consider it appropriate, I can move the bill and give the explanation. MA. SPEAKER: Order please. The House will recess for a moment or two, awaiting the arrival of the Honourable Minister. BILL NO. 27 - THE FINANCIAL ADMINIST RATION ACT HON. V. SCHAOEDEA presented Bill No. 27,

An Act to amend The Financial Act, for second read ing. MOTION presented. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHAOEDEA: The amendments contained in this bill will permit the government to invest in a corporation or corporations which will be controlled by government but will be able to finance at more favourable rates than would normally be available to a provincial government. This would be by way of issuing preferred shares offered to the public at rates lower than rates available in tt'e public bond market.

The shares would be non­ vot,llg and would be redeemable by both the investor and by the government acting through its corporation after a five-year period. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mou ntain. MA. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. 2036

Mondq 18 June, 1184 ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING BILL NO. 5 THE HIGHWAY TRAFFIC ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Mini ster of High ways, Bill No. 5, the Honourable Member for Pembina has 15 minutes remaining. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. When I was addressing this bill, I posed a number of questions to the first major

section that was being amended, that being the mobility aids and mobility vehicles sect ions. The Minister is unaware of another

section that was in his own legislatio n, and I'm sure when he closes debate he'll justify an amendment that he has just brought in which will require all vehicles to install, ess entially , turn signals, where the previous legislation exempted vehicles that were manufactured prior to 1958. The problem with the Minister's amendment, or proposed amendment, is that now any vehicle prior to 1958, which was not manufactured as I understand it with turn signals as part of the standard equipment, will now have to be retro fitted.

That certainly causes a great deal of problem for those Manitobans who are attempting to maintain the antique value of vehicles. There is no question that Manitoba will be unique in that Model A's, Model T's, '49 Chevs, all of those kinds of vehicles prior to 1958 will reduce and lose their antique value because this Minister has insisted that they are going to be equipped and must be equipped with turn signals. Surely this is a rather though tless action on the part of the Minister. He can't justify it and, as a matter of fact, he didn't even address it when he introduced the bill, Sir.

As another small angle to that particular amendment that he is proposing, he is requiring that flashing lights, I believe it is, or signals of some type, be installed on all trailers. Now that includes farm trailers, Mr. Speaker, and that means the farmer, who, because he doesn't want to tie up his grain truck, and in spraying time has a water tank · on a trailer which he pulls behind his tractor, would seem to me that the Minister's new amendment will require that trailer to be equipped with elec tronic flashers.

I hardly think the Minister has thought this issue through and I hardly think he can come up with justification for this amendment. but nevertheless, Sir, it is there, brought in by this Minister, and I might say without mention in his introduc tory remarks that he was changing the antique value of many vehicles in this province and imposing further req uirements and rest rictions on people owning trailers, a numb er of whom are in the farm commun ity.

To deal with the seco nd aspect that the Minister identified in his legislation as being a change is the removal of the ability to appeal decisions made by the Licence Suspension Appeal Board to do with impaired driving, Sir.

Under the present system, the system that is in place now and has been in place for a number of years, if a Manitoban felt that the Licence Suspension Appeal Board had dealt with him unfairly in the suspension of his driving privileges because of an impaired driving conviction, that Manitoban did have the right to appeal to the County Court and have his case heard once again. lt was a true court of appeal for Manitobans.

That avenue of appeal is now being removed by this Minister, and Manitobans now have to look forward to a politically-appointed Licence Suspension Appeal Board being the final decision-making body in cases of licence suspension because of impaired driving. Now, that can have some interesting implications, Mr. Speaker, because a number of Manitobans depend on their drivers' licences for their livelihood. So in some small way, there is no question that this amendment will contribute to Manitobans having difficulty maintaining meaningful employment. I don't think that's anything that any government wants to do.

The reasons, and I used as an example when I spoke to this bill at my last opportunit y, Mr. Speaker, that while I was Minister of Highways and while my colleague was, we were approached by members of the organized labour in Manitoba who wished to have us introduce a dual licensing system, a driver's licence which would be a pleasure licence and a driver's licence which would be a working licence.

The reason for that, Sir, was that if on a weekend, when an individual was not driving his car or veh icle as a method of employment and he received an impaired driving charge, that only his pleasure licence would be affected and that he could continue on Monday morning driving for a living, whether it be a truck driver, a delivery van driver, or a travel ling salesman who needs his licence, that he could continue with his second licence, namely, the working licence. Now, we saw problems with that, as I think anyone could, and we did not comply with that request .

But reco gnizing the seriousness of having one's livelihood removed because he did not have the privilege to drive in the province, we did not make any changes to the appeal mechanism from the licence Suspension Appeal Board to the County Court. If an individual whose request for reinstatement of driving privileges was denied by the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, that individual could go to County Court, make his case and it was success ful. I believe the Minister said 87 percent of the appeals to County Court were successfu l. Now there is no appeal to the County Court.

Now this government is leaving their politically-appointed board as being the final people to decide on the fate of Manitobans who may well depend on that driver's licence for their livelihood for support of their family. I just want to suggest, Mr.

Speaker , given the actions of board members in McKenzie Seeds, politically appointed by this government; given the actions of board members at Brandon University appointed by this government; do we have confidence and do Manitobans have confidence in the abili ty of the political appointees of this government because we are giving them greatly , vastly, much more authority under this amendment in the Licence Suspension Appeal Board? Is it the proper way to address what the government perceives as a problem? I say perceives, Sir, because on questioning from my colleague, the MLA for St.

Norbert, to the Attorney-General to justify this kind of measure, no justification was given, only the statistic that 87 percent are reinstated by County Court. So, Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister has to explain in closing debate and explain at committee how eff ective 2037

Mondar. 11 June, 1884 this system is going to be. He's going to have to explain to us how Manitobans all of a sudden should have the ultimate confidence in their political-appointed Licence Suspens ion Appeal Board after the kind of example their political appointees have given us at McKenzie Seeds, Brandon U. and other areas. I think it's a question this Minister cannot answer and cannot justify to Manitobans.

I do not think Manitobans, as concerned as they are about alcohol and driving and impaired drivers being on the road, I think as concerned as Manitobans are about that issue, they will be equally concerned about this government's political appointees holding final sway over their livelihoods and their lifestyles. I don't think that most Manitobans would agree that this government enjoys the competence to be able to appoint people who will make that final decision in the best Interests of all Manitobans. So, Mr. Speaker, we look forward to the Minister of Highways justifying this second amendment.

We look forward to him telling us how it's going to work, how it's going to avoid partisan decisions as a political appointed board can and has done by this government. Again, I use the example of Brandon University, Sir. I don't think the Minister can justify it. I don't think he can tell us that a partisan error cannot be fully open to accusation by Manltobans who go before the Licence Suspension App eal Board, appointed by this government, and are denied what they consider is a very worthwhile case to have their driving privileges reinstated. Mr.

Speaker, we have some concerns about aspects of this bill and I only hope that the Minister is able to justify the reasons and give them to us in very clear language, none of the bafflegab we get from time to time from Ministers opposite, and tell us just why he believes this is the best approach to solving the impaired driver problem in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker , I'll close with those few remarks, and the Minister does have, indeed, some explanations to make to this House and to the people of Manitoba. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I wish to make a few remarks with respect to the two main aspects of this bill that the Minister referred to when he introduced it for second read ing. He referred to the use of motorized wheel chairs and mobility aids, and the reco mmendations which he said were unanimous from a committee involving a numb er of agencies involving the physically handicapped. Mr. Speaker, I know that the Member for Pembina has placed on the record justifiable and serious concerns with respect to the safety aspect. I do want to go on the · record also as indicating general support for the direction in which the Minister is moving.

I had occasion, Mr. Speaker, in the fall of 1981, after being seriously injured at a Progressive Conservative picnic, having suffered a torn Achilles tendon, to use one of the mobility aids during the election that fall that the Minister is atte mpting to legislate upon. Mr.

Speaker, I can say to the Minister that this form of mobility aids referred to in the bill is one that will assist the physically handicapped in being able to obtain more mobility and the ability to travel, perhaps on a fairly limited basis, but it does add a great deal to the mobility for a physically handicapped person and cert ainly that is a general direction that I am very much prepared to support. I know that the Minister will take into concern, and I'm sure so far has taken into concern many of the safety aspects that the Member for Pembina has referred to and no doubt will expand upon at committee stage.

The main area, Mr. Speaker , that I wished to comment on was the deletion of the appeals from the Licence Suspension Appeal Board to the County Court. I raised this particular issue when the Attorney-General announced the government's policies with respect to the campaign against impaired driving and that's one general policy, Mr. Speaker , that · I've indicated we support on this side, and I'm sure all political parties in this countr y, in North America, support.

I did ask however at that time, and that Minister indicated that of the number of appeals granted by the Country Court, the Minister has indicated that some 85 percent of the appellants to the County Court resulted in reversals or changes in the Licence Suspension Appeal Board's decisions. But the Important statistic, Mr. Speaker , Is how many of those 87 percent who successfully appealed to the County Court were the decisions of the County Court not followed? In how many of those cases did the appellants, having successfu lly appealed, not follow the conditions of the order that was granted by the County Court?

That is the important statistic as far as I am concerned, because we are dealing with -it's Interesting to note -the general req uirements for successfu lly appealing a decision In this case. The appellant must show exceptional hardship and must show that the granting of an appeal will not be contrary to the public Interest, and in the main, Mr. Speaker, in fact solely we are dealing with situations where people require their automobiles for the purposes of work. Without a licence, they don't have a job. lt's as simple as that.

So there's no question that there has to be as much deterrent as possible to people driving while impaired, but for our purposes in this Legislature, I think we have to know In how many of 87 percent of successful appeals were people involved subsequently in violation of the County Court's order. I think it's not sufficie nt, Mr. Speaker, to say that we are the only jurisdiction in the country to allow appeals in these types of cases from a Licence Suspension Appeal Board to a court. I frankly, Mr.

Speaker, generally am opposed to many of the pieces of legislation that now come before the House where the jurisdiction of the courts is severely restricted and appeals are not allowed except on a very limited basis. I think it is wise, part . .Jiarly when we are dealing in so many of these cas• .s with politically-appointed boards, that appeals to the courts should be allowed to ensure that justice will be served in these cases.

So I would ask the Minister, as the Member for Pembina has, in concluding debate on this bill, after all those members who wish to speak have spoken, that he indicate those statistics to us, or if he can't that he at least und ertake to have them available at Law Amendments Committee when this bill is discussed there. 2038

llondeJ, 18 June, 1984 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Minister of Highways will be closing debate. The Honourable Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to thank the honourable members for their contributions to this bill, and I want to adress some of the questions that were raised by the Member for Pembina and then deal with the Licence Suspension Appeal Board changes and some of the matters that were raised there.

Firstly, on the previous occasion that the Member for Pembina had to address the bill, he raised a number of questions dealing with the matter of motorized mobility aids and mobility vehicles and I wanted to clarify some of those points at this time. First of all, he asked whether anyone would be able to drive and register one of these motorized mobility aids. Clearly the intention Is, and we would have ways of ensuring that, that only people who were in need of using that type of transportation would be those that would be utilizing them on the streets and roads of Manitoba.

We are currently proposing a system for parking which involves an identification sticker that is cleared through the League for the Physically Handicapped, or the Canadian Paraplegic Associa tion, or a physician, indicating that person is indeed handicapped - to this particular vehicle registered - who would also propose that the same kind of approach could be taken here, that if he demonstrated by certificate from the League for the Physically Handicapped or the Paraplegic Association that he or she was indeed in need of that particular vehicle, that that would be a criteria to determine, or else by a physician.

So again, it would be restricted to people who are disabled, and I can understand the concerns that were raised by the Honourable Member for Pembina when he said that perhaps maybe others would want to use these vehicles. The second question was as far as the licensing requirements. We've clearly indicated that Class 1 to 5 licence - or Class 7 would apply for individuals. Currently they can get a licence for a regular car with some changes that are made to it to allow them, enable them, to drive that vehicle and then they take the test.

The licence that they get is restricted to that particular modified vehicle that they have been successful in taking their test, they still get the same licence, but it is restricted to a particular vehicle that has been modified for their use. That would apply.

Here, the Rehab Hospital for example, could determine the controls required on the vehicle and then they would qualify for the licence using those controls on that particular vehicle. lt would restrict the use of these vehicles then to those who could qualify for a driver's licence and that's the way the League for the Physically Handicapped and Paraplegic Association would like to see it - limited of course, to those who could qualify for that particular classification of licence under certain circumstances with certain kinds of controls that would enable them to operate it.

Those are the provisions that we would have in place for the licensing requirements. The lighting requirements would be the same as those for mopeds and I had indicated that to the honourable member. They are dealt with in

Section 33 of the Act and I just wanted to see if I could find some of the specifics. They are the same as those that are in place for a moped at this time and that would not change. The honourable member can rest assured that there would be certain requirements. The mopeds require the following lighting; that they shall carry one or two headlamps and one lamp at the back of the motorcycle, they shall have a red lamp on the back to indicate when the moped is stopped, they shall have red reflectors on the back, white lamps on the front and no signal lights are required.

That's the provisions for mopeds at this time. We would look at whether it would be necessary to address the matter of signal lights on those, particularly for people. who are operating them and really are unable to use their arms if they even have arms, operating those special vehicles. lt may be necessary to have some signalling device on there. We're looking at that that could be provided in regulation, but all of the other lighting that is required would apply the same to motorized vehicles, motorized mobility agents that applies to mopeds.

In terms of restrictions on the use of these vehicles on certain roads - the honourable member raised that concern as well. He is probably aware that there are certain restrictions on the use of mopeds and that is that they are not allowed on PTH's on which the maximum speed is greater than 80 KPH, and it would also apply to these, so his example of taking off to some of the beaches down some of the major PTH's would not apply.

Those are some of the major questions that were asked by the Honourable Member for Pembina and I think that they are addressed in the legislation in that it applies in the same to the use of mobility vehicles as it applies to mopeds. To get to the

section that the Member for Pembina pointed out -

Section 33.(1 )(c) - I want to point out to the - oh sorry, Mr. Speaker, I'm not supposed to refer to sections, but I will say that there are certain parts of the bill dealing with turn signals that will not be proceeded with at committee, they were never part of the drafting Instructions and that is why - (Interjection) - well, I want to thank the honourable members for bringing that to my attention and to the attention of the House.

That particular part referring to turn signals will not be proceeded with; will be struck in committee. - (Interjection) - There's only one way to find out what the reaction would be from the opposition. I guess we found out. In dealing with the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to point out to the honourable members that there are serious problems with drinking and driving. I think that the honourable members opposite appreciate that and they have no problems with the government taking some major initiatives to reduce the incidence of drinking and driving on our highways.

So, I don't think we differ on that. There's plenty of evidence to indicate that it is a growing social problem. There were 5,000 drivers, for example, convicted last year of driving while impaired or being over .08. There were, as well, many applications, approximately 3,375 before the Appeal Board, for licences suspended. About 3,300 involved alcohol in some way and most of those, the vast majority of those, the Licence 2039

MondltJo 18 June, 1884 Suspension Ap peal Board granted some sort of remission or restricted licence. As a matter of fact over two-thirds, approximately two-thirds or 75 percent I should say of those, they granted a restricted licence. In almost all cases, with very few excep tions, on first offences there were restricted licenc es that were granted. However, with repeat offenders, two, three, four times, five times and so on, that's where the Licence Suspension Appeal Board has become much stricter in its approach to the matter of ·licence suspension.

So, we want to look at those issues in terms of the overall initiatives that we're taking. The Member for St. Norbert asked how many of these people are involved in repeat offences. I think that is a valid question.

I think there has to be some innovative ways looked at to deal with this problem in the futur e, .because I agree, and I think all mem bers on this side as do all members on that side of the House, feel that the matter of a livelihood and of having the ability to earn a living restricted by licence is something we have to look at very carefully, because it Is a very difficult problem for many people who end up with their licences suspended. lt is true that when they have had their - and I point out that in these very difficult cases where they have been repeat offe nders In most cases and have taken an appeal to the County Court and have been successful in that case - a number of those have had reinvolvement in violations subsequent to that successful appeal.

That is the part that concerns us as well. I can tell you that from the sample information that we've taken, that approximately 25-30 percent of those have had reinvolvement in traffic offe nces. That's rather a large numb er when you consider that most people are never caught under the circumstance of drinking and driving. When you have approximately 25 -30 percent of those who have had appeals in the courts, having been reinvolved, I think that is rather a significant statement. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: The Member for St. Norbert on a point of order. MR. G.

MERCIER: I wonder if the Minister would be prepared to take a question at this point with respect to the statistics. With respect to the 25 or 30 percent he's referred to, could he ind icate whether that reinvolvement has taken place during the time period of the success ful order that they'v e obtained from the County Court? Have 25-30 percent violated their appeal orders? HON. J. PLOHMAN: From my information that is the fact.

They would have been suspended for a five-year period Initially and then of course woul::l have gone for their appeal and had their rest riction either lifted further than the Licence Suspension Appeal Board gave them with fewer res trictions or would have been granted a licence where they were not grant ed one at all previously. This reinvolvement Is within a few months of their -I'm dealing with 1983 for example where there wouldn't have been a great deal of time -there were 29.7 percent who had reinvolvement of those people who had appeals in April of 1983 who appealed to the County Court.

I think that is a significant factor. I think we have to look at this matter from a num ber of ways. Certainly I believe the Licence Suspension Appeal Board should be looking very carefu lly at people who are involved in drinking while they are going to and from work. I think in those cases, they should be treating their situation a little differe ntly than they treat people who have been perhaps violating their restricted licence by drinking and driving in the evening or off­ work hours.

That is a serious problem, but that does r.ut necessari ly mean that we should be dealing with it in terms of their licence to get them to and from work. That's where I think the board has to show some leniency or at least some understanding of these particular situations. There are a lot of gray areas that make it very difficult for them to do that, where people say they are on call 24 hours a day, that kind of thing. lt makes it very difficult for them to grant a work licence which would, in effect, give them a licence to operate 24 hours a day or maybe a lot longer hours than they really need for their job.

So I think we have to work with the Licence Suspension Appeal Board. I want to point out another thing with regard to the Appeal Board, an aspect that I want to see in place by next year. My understanding is that three years ago, there was only one person on a panel dealing with licence suspensions, who was hearing the case. We now operate with two people which makes it much fairer than having just on�> person going out and hearing a case and making an Independent decision. We have two people on the panel.

I would like to see three people on a panel hearing any one particular case. lt costs a few more dollars, but I think it is a fair way of dealing with licence suspensions. I think the three people dealing as a panel could look at all aspects and probably come to fairer decisions than they would if there is only one person on that panel. So that's a way that I think we could make the Licence Suspension Appeal Board more responsive to the particular needs, espe cially since we removed the second appeal.

We want to look at all of these possibilities. it's very important and I think we have the same concerns that you do. I don't know whether the opposition is suggesting that the board is going to make its decisions on the basis of the political affiliation of individuals. I think that's what they're saying and I think that is totally unacce ptable. There Is no way that the board Is going to make its decisions. Now when you have one individual doing it, as they did under the previous govern ment, there is much more opportunit y for that kind of thing to happen. When you have two or three, it makes it much fairer.

We certainly want to look at those possibilities. I can tell you then, when I looked at the other provinces, I indicated there was one other case only, in New Bruns wick , where they had two appeal procedur es. Some had appeals directly to the courts, others had to a board, but In only one other case did they have two appeals. I think what we have to do is mal: ' the Licence Suspension Appeal Board responsive and take into considera tion, as I said earl ier, that it sh'>uld be firm, yet compassionate. I think that can be done with some proced ural changes, especi ally as it involves work licences. So, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , with those ·remarks, I would like to conclude my remarks today and look forward to more information that may be available In the committee. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I'm wonder ing if the Minister, before he concludes his remarks, would 2040

Mond.y, 18 JuM, 19811 entertain just one question, specifically to the remarks he has made? I would ask the Minister whether it's to be considered under his new legislation whether in fact the Licence Suspension Appeal Board would have the right to transfer if they're granted an opportunity to somebody who lost his licence to drive within a certain area, whether that would be transferable from one area of the province to another.

I'm lead to believe now that under today's legislation, that if somebody goes to County Court and receives permission, with all the costs involved, of course, of appearing before court, and receives permission to drive within that area, if that individua l moves from one part of the province to another, In effect, that individual has to go back through the same costly process. Now, can the Minister tell me whether, first of ail, I'm correct, and if I am correct, whether or not this process will change? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I can't say definitively whether when he goes to the court and gets a restricted licence for a certain area, that he has to go back to the court if he changes jobs or is transferred to another area of the province. However, if that is the case under this system, I would see that the board, on this information being brought to their attention, could make that decision to transfer that same restricted licence to another area. I would see that being done rather routinely as opposed to something that Is rather an exception . MR. C.

MANNESS: One final question, during the Committee Stage, can the Minister give us a definitive proposal either way regarding my particular questions? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I could outline how that would work in more detail if he wanted. My understanding of the process Is what I've outlined. However, if it's any different, I would certainly bring that forward. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BILL NO. 6 - THE DANGEROUS GOODS HANDLING AND TRANSPORTATION ACT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Bill No. 6, on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of the Environment, standing in the name of the Member for Nlakwa. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to just speak on The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act;

Loi sur la IT)anutention et le transport des marchandises dangereuses. We are recognizing the need for a greater care, a greater concern about how dangerous goods are handled, transported, stored, used and disposed. We welcome in general this act, Mr. Speaker, with some reservation. At second reading, we debate the pr inciples of the bill, and I can tell you, we are in favour of a safer, more responsible way of dealing with the ever-increasing number of chemicals, dangerous and non-dangerous that could be injurious to our environment.

The public, 2041 the people of the Province of Manitoba, who must exist in this env ironme nt , must be protected against contamination caused by the mi shandling and uncontrolled handling of dangerous goods. There will be some danger from human error, but the danger from lack of regulation I'm sure will be lessened. It is my understanding that much of the effectiveness of this or any other provincial bill depends on the Federal Government's co-operation and the legislation In the handling and transportation of dangerous goods.

This act doesn't apply to some elements that are exempted by the regulation or under the sole direction for control of the Minister of National Defence of Canada. There are some eliminatlons there. Therefore, you can see that there has to be a co-operative attitude with the Federal Government, particularly the Department of National Defence and all the dangerous goods that may be shipped through our province , this is the National Defence, via rail, highways, water or even by air. To effectively control the problem, the Federal Government and the Provincial Government must have a working co-operation.

At committee stage, I would like to find out how far the negotiations have gone with t!le Federal Governm ent, and I would ho pe the Honourable Minister would be able to advise all the committee at that time. I am concerned that the bill does not unnecessarily interfere with the egricultural industry where the use of many chemicals are required.

I know some of my colleagues are most aware of the daily use of these chemicals· on the farm and would want to examine the bill and discuss this in greater detail, because the farm members particularly are those that are more concerned with the farming Industry will have something to contribute on this a little later on. I express a great concern that the bill must not tie the hands of the municipa l authorities to the extent that they cannot properly respond to critical situations.

I think the Minister has got some comments on that and I think that will come out in committee, but I just bring it to his attention in case he isn't prepared for that type of a comment. I think just in casual conversation the Minister did say that there was going to be something that will allow the municipalities not to have their hands tied.

Well, at least I hope that he will be prepared to allow that, because there are critical situations that huve to be reacted to immediately concerning canker worms, mosquitoes, grasshoppers and the 90-day rule I'm sure will have to be left aside and not been taken into consideration. I think special consideration has to be given to those municipalities at that time. In any regulatory piece of legislation, I always worry about how much power or authority is given to the director or the inspectors, etc., in carrying out the purposes of this bill. The snooper clause, Mr.

Speaker, the powers of environmental officers and the inspector, and I'm not going to discuss the different clauses, but I'm just going to make reference to them: Clause 18, and the special powers of the environmental officers and inspectors In Clause 29 - that's the special powers. I hope the Minister has anticipated the consequences of the "special powers" that he Is suggesting that these officers have. With these comments, Mr. Speaker, I invite any of the other members to speak on the bill including some

llondaJ, 18 June, 1984 of the government members if they so desire as they also have the right to do so as I've heard so many times during question period. I look forward to the clause-by-clause consideration at committee where no doubt we shall also be hearing from the public with their comments on the bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Deputy-Speak er, I move, seconded by the Member for Robli n-Russell, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honour able Attorney-Ge neral, Bill No. 8,

An Act to amend The Securities Act, standing in the name of the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Stand. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Stand. MA. DEPUTY SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of the Environment, Bill No. 11 ,

An Act to amend The Clean Environment Act, standing in the name of the Member for Niakawa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Stand, Mr. Speak er. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Stand. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Education, Bill No. 12 ,

An Act to amend The Public Schools Act, standing in the name of the Member for Morris. MA. C. MANNESS: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Stand. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Community Services, Bill No. 16,

An Act to amend The Child We lfare Act, standing In the name of the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Stand. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Stand. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Labour, Bill No. 22,

An Act to amend The Labour Relations Act and Various other Acts of the Legislature, standing in the name of the Member for La Ve rendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Stand. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Stand. The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. lt would be my intention to move the supply motion, but before I do so just to clarify our agenda for Committee of Sup ply, Mr.

Speaker, we had suggested that after the department's under the re sponsibility of the Minister of Finance, we would be following Executive Council in the House; following that Jobs Fund, Canada­ Manitoba Enabling Vote, Int erest Rate Relief and Emergency Measures and Flood Control.

That will still be the order, Sir, but to accommodate the fact that most members will want to attend the Estimates of Executive Council and Jobs Fund, it would be our intention to try to finish Energy and Mine s before we deal with those last five items, so that we can deal with those altogether so that all Ministers with responsibilities can be here. lt may take a short time, Sir, for the Energy and Mines Estimates to be completed. They may not finish this aftern oon, they may finish mid-term this ev ening.

At that point lt would be our intention to then wind up the activities of that committee and commence the last five items in the House, where they were originally assigned, so that all mem bers can participate. So, Mr. Speaker , with that understanding that the committees may or may not sit simultane ously, but will attempt to deal with the items in accordance with the

schedule that has already been outlined, we would go into supply. I believe, there may, Sir, also be leave to dispense with Private Mem bers' Hour today to accommodate consideration of these remaining supply Items. If I have leave, Sir, I would add that to the motion for supply. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I would then move, se conded by the Minister of Finance, that Mr.

Speaker , do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty and such committee to sit through Private Members' Hour. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Jobs Fund and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Energy and Mines. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, just to confirm for honourable members, the committee in the Chamber will stay in suspense until such time as the Estimates of Energy and Mines have been completed in the committee room. There will be no Estimates in the House

section of the committee until at the earliest 8:00 p.m. this ev ening. SU PPL Y - ENERGY AND MINES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee please come to order . We skip 2.(b)(1) and we want to finish 2.(

g) now. lt is Manitoba Energy Autho rity. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister who was good enough at our last meeting to allow us to move 2042

Monday, 18 June, 1984 ahead of several items in this resolution to place some questions with respect to the Manitoba Energy Authority to the Min ister. I would ask his indu lgence to allow that matter to stand and to revert back to the regular order. There are a few additional questions that I and my colleagues may wish to ask. MR. CHAI RMAN: Is this the wish of the committee? Okay, then I shall call the Honourable Min ister. HON. W. PARASIUK: Sure, I have no problem with that. We did do that on Friday to accommodate the opposition which was again somewhat unusual. We were prepared to do that.

I will be accommodating today. I might indicate however, that we have indicated that the Manitoba Energy Authority and Manitoba Hydro will be available Jor Public Utilities Committee on Thursd ay. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I certainly don't wish to delay the consideration of the Estimates. I'd simply just say at this point in time of the Estimates there's not .oo much el bow room left with respect to opposition members to cover all bases and I unde rstand that Mr. Ransom is currently undertaking some discussions in order to expedite another matter in the House. I'm simply suggesting . . HON. W.

PARASIUK: That's fair enough. Sure. MR. H. ENNS: . . . that we proceed . We skipped over two or three Items with respect to the energy programs - the Canada-Manitoba Energy Agreement - if we come to that item we will proceed and pass it as it is. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: To the same point, Mr. Chairman, I think the request is reasonable considering all of the busine ss before members. lt may well be that we come back to this item upon the return of other members who have other obligations and can still deal with it today. HON. W. PARASIUK: I wasn't aware of that. HON. A.

ANSTETT: I don't think Mr. Enns is suggesting it won't be dealt with today. In fact, I think now that Mr. Enns is counting members opposite he knows that we're going to have to deal with these things today by sheer weight of num bers. MR. CHAIRM AN: Ok ay. Let me now call 2.(b)

(1) Provincial Energy Programs: Salaries; 2.(b)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, when last we were approaching this item we didn't get into the details of the program. Throughout the last several months or better part of the year, the Minister has made numerous anno uncements, demons trations in front of the Legislative Building with a host of new vehicles and a host of new people to implement some of the programs, whether they're called CHE C or otherwise, and I suppose they may come under the item Salary (e).

But let me begin by asking what precisely are the other expenditur es listed in the Provincial Energy Programs, I'm assuming from the figures given that staff allocation remains much the same? HON. W PARASIUK: There are $50,000 worth of grants. There is $5,000 allocated for energy conservation assistance; $5,000 for renewable and alternate energy assistance; 35.5 travel, office expense, etc. There Is a wee bit of work we are doing as start-up work with respect to hydrogen. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, did I understand the Minister correctly when he said, there is a wee bit of work? HON. W.

PARASIUK: We'r e starting work on hydrogen. What happened Is that in 1978, I believe, a contract, some work that had been done initiated by the Schreyer Admini stration came to an end in 1978 and people have been looking at hydrogen . We would hope to start a contract with the Hydrogen Indu stry Council, and we have a membership In that national council. We are gaining information and we would hope that we would be able to do some work towards a potential pilot project in Manitoba, but we have to do some homework with the industry. Some work has been done in Ontario; some work has been done in Quebec.

We 're in a situation right now whereby we could end up with extremely well-priced power relative to other jurisdictions 12-15 years from now. The production of hydrogen, through the electrolosis of water, requires good, low-priced ene rgy. We think that hydrogen may in fact be a tremendous future development possibility for the province. We have taken out a membership in the Hydrogen Indu stry Council, and we are examining the parameters of a study to be undertaken in Manitoba in hydrogen development .

We have had some early discussions with the Federal Government in this respect, and we would hope that we might have something more to report in this very promising area in the future. 1t will take a little bit of time to put this together , however. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Min ister . Would I not be correct in assuming that the principal grants related to energy saving projects carried out by the department would be located in the followi ng? Item (

c) Canada-Manitoba Ene rgy Agreements and/or in the Cut Home Energy Cost Item (e) ... HON. W. PARASIUK: Ye s, and Jobs Fund. MR. H. ENNS: . . . the ones that we are - and the Jobs Fund - the ones that we are familiar with. The ones that ... HON. W. PARASIUK: There's a whole slew that come out. MR. H. ENNS: . . . that are going on throughout the province. I would then ask him what specifically are the kind of grants that the Minister referred to under the Item 2043

Monday, 18 June, 1984 under consideration? He referred to some $50,000 worth of grants under Provincial Energy Programs, Item 2. HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, this would be the Biomass Institute, the Solar Energy Institute. We provide some money for some work on a day called Sun Day, it's called. We provide some assistance to the science fairs. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(bX 1)- pass; 2.(bX2)- pass. 2. (c)( 1) Canada-Manitoba Energy Agreement: Salaries; 2.(cX2l Other Expenditures - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, as is the case in many shared provincial-federal programs, is there a federal sharing of salaries involved in this resolution? HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, up to $300,000 is cost­ shared. MR. H. ENNS: I believe, Mr. Chairman, that in response to questions put to him by Mr. Filmon when last this committee met, the Minister indicated that it was perhaps in this area that additi onal information communication officers and the like are housed in this area of the Minister's Estimates. Could the Minister Indicate to us how many people of this kind are involved In these salaries? HON. W.

PARASIUK: There are five staff that are cost­ shared federally-provincially who are Involved in the information communication of this particular large program, one secretary and four information people. MR. H. ENNS: Are these staff people under contract, or are they part of the Civil Service staff, either federal or provincial? HON. W. PARASIUK: They are a combination of term and permanent staff. I might add, the allocation hasn't really changed since we've assumed office. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister be good enough to gi ve us a breakdown and an explanation, I suppose?

Last year, the year ending March 31s t, we had in Other Expenditures an item of $2,739,000 relative to a million dollar figure in'84-85. I appreciate the note at the bottom of the page which speaks of another $1. 9 mi llion Is In clu ded In Expenditur es related to capital assets. Where and what is the $1 ,064,000 being applied, Mr. Chairman? HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, the types of programming we have here is, I think, a very good one called Enerschool, it's a school retrofit program. In Manitoba there are over 600 schools with a total annual energy bill in excess of $20 million.

As a conservation estimate, a 20 percent reduction in energy consumption can be achieved with the pay back period of one-and-a-half to two years and the potential savings are in the order of $4 million a year. What we're doing is undertaking a program whereby 18 minor retrofits will take place in schools throughout six regions in Manitoba. In addition, there will be a major retrofit of one school in the North and one in Wi nn ipeg . The schools were chosen through a competition held throughout the province during the period March-June, 1983. That's one program that's in there.

Another program is the Rural and Urban Arena Retrofit Program. In a typical Manitoba community or city, the recreation centre, arena or curling rink are the focal points of community activity. In recent years these facilities have become a financial burden due to the increasing costs of energy. We're hoping that we would be able to reduce people's energy costs. A number of the arenas were originally constructed for natural ice, and air infiltration was not a problem, but today, with artificial ice it Is a problem.

This program is 50 percent funded by the Federal Government and it entails the retrofitlng of six rural arenas and four urban recreation centres to demonstrate the various conservation measures for these facilities. The six selected arenas - one in each region of the province, are undergoing retrofit measures which include renovations of lighting system, recovery of waste heat, ceiling and insulating of the building envelope, proper operating procedures and the installation of Improved of energy use control mechanisms.

There are four ones taking place in four Manitoba cities and they deal with both arenas and pools in four cities in the province. We have a small scale demonstration program. This is designed to offer funding and technical assistance to Manltobans for innovative small scale projects that demonstrate and encourage widespread use of energy conserving or renewable energy technologies, and it's aimed at creating public awareness of the reliability and the cost effectiveness of new energy ideas. The program also emphasizes job creation and the use of local materials.

Proposals were invited from individuals, small bus inesses - those employing less than 20 employees - municipalities and non-profit organizations and institutions in the Province of Manitoba. The deadline for proposed submissions was March 31s t and the scheduled deadline for completion of projects is June 30, 1984, and government assistance varies between 55 to 75 percent of project costs, set at a maximum of $1 0,000 per projects.

Labour and material supplied by the applicant were considered as a portion of their contribution and proje ct proposals were reviewed by technical staff at the Manitoba Research Councils Industrial Technology Centre. Of a total of 291 proposals submitted, 93 were approved. By November, 1983, 19 of the approved applicants dropped out of the program for various reasons. There Is a number of projects that are undertaken, and they break down by region and they break down according to technology. Another program is the Energy Demo Program; it's called the Home Energy Saving Demonstration.

The majority of Manitoba's 300,000-plus dwellings are not very energy efficient. Escalating energy costs have imposed a severe economic burden on many residents. The upgrading of these existing units is a necessity as they will house the bulk of Manitoba's residents in the future. Then, under the program, lip to 120 homeowners throughout the province will receive assistance to carry 2044

Monday, 18 June, 1984 out retrofits designed to reduce their energy consumption by at least 40 percent; energy demos assisting homeowners with retrof its of between $2,000 and $1 0,000, by contributing half of the costs of the retrof its and by providing consulting and techn ical advice. A two-year program of monitoring the retrofit homes will be undertaken as a major element of the project to help determine the effect in the various retrofit measures. A major element of the project is to improve and encou rage public awareness of home energy retrofit ting.

This is being accomplished through a series of energy demo open houses where the public can see retrofits in progress and obtain information on improving the energy ef ficiency of their own homes. I had the opportunity of visiting one that took place in my commun ity, and I was amazed at the community response. Indeed, I can recall that was the first day - this was last year - that we were having hearings on FLS and I think there were at that time probably about 60 people in this particular room.

There was a rainstorm that night and I went out to this energy open house in my community and there were at 60 people who showed up for that as a result of one little ad in the community newspaper indicating that people were welcome to come out.

There is that awareness out there and it's important with respect to energy conservation to change attitudes and in a sense have people start working at this because, as I said in my introductory comments, the sum of these types of projects to me are, when you start looking at the numbers, 300,000 homes or the number of schools or arenas involved, the sum of them are important as any of the larger projects and I think the longer-term impact for Manitoba's economy and for the quality of life is great.

Now in the other project, there is one that maybe the member has some acquaintanceship with and that's the Town Energy Audit Match. The purpose of this program is to demonstrate the Energy Conservation Program to small and medium- sized towns in Manitoba through a multi-sectoral energy conservation project focused on two towns, Stonewall and Pinawa. A whole set of activities are taking place there. In a sense, both com muni ties are competing with each other to determine which one actually can bring about the greatest energy conservation in that town.

So rather than just getting one or another sector involved, the whole town is being encouraged to get involved. We've been receiv ing, I think, a fairly good response, but again, maybe the member has some awareness of that program in his own area. There are some others that are being looked at with respect to some new approaches that could be taken with respect to either facilities, housing, one of these that was annou nced was the Manitoba Rolling Mills announcement, but there are some others that may develop. We're having discussions with people in the industry and with home builde rs.

I think the other expenditur es here should be looked at in relation to $1. 9 million in expenditures related to capital assets which is the last item in my Estimates. That's the capital portion of these types of activities. There are staff costs, there are consulting costs and then there are capital costs. These would break down between those two categories. MR. H. ENNS: I appreciate the specifics probably vary, but in general, as in the housing refit programs, how do the grants by and large break down?

If it's a $5,000 or $1 0,000 refit , what does the homeowner have to provide and how does the breakdown of provincial­ federal contributions to that refit program in the main break down? HON. W. PARASIUK: They tend to break down one­ third by the individual, and two-thirds cost-shared 50/ 50 by the Federal Government and the Provincial Government. . MR. H. ENNS: Earlier the Minister referred to the work that's being done with respect to some 18, I believe, schools. He says they were chosen thr ough a competition. What kind of a competition?

When he refers to a competition, that is, proposals coming from individual school boards that . . . ? HON. W. PARASIUK: We asked all schools to put forward proposals which would reduce their energy consumption and in a sense have the biggest bang for the energy buck. These were reviewed by a technical comm ittee and then demonstration projects were awarded to 18 of the schools of all the schools that applied. MR. H. ENNS: With respect to the arenas or curling clubs or whatever you want to call them in the count ry, how are they chosen?

We have a fairly limited number - six I believe in rural Manitoba, four in the city - is that again a question of being able to meet with a co­ operative board that decides to go into this program and put up their one-third? HON. W. PARASIUK: We received applications from a number of arenas and they were broken down per reg ion in a sense to ensure that there would be a demonstration project taking place in each region of Manitoba. MR. H. ENNS: Can the Min ister indicate which arenas are being . . . this program? HON. W. PARASIUK: Ye s, I can, if you'd like.

The Carman Arena, the Lorette Sport Centre, the Neepawa Arena, the Roblin Arena, the arena in The Pas, and the Stonewall Arena. That was rural. In the city, in the urban centres, you have the Brandon Sportsplex, the Flin Flon Aqua Centre, the Pan Am Pool, and the Thompson Recreation Centre. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)( 1)-p ass; 2.(c)(2)- pass. 2.(d)( 1) Canada-Manitoba National Energy Audit Program: Salaries; 2.(d)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I assume that this item is probably a necessary adjunct or part of a federal agreement that calls for cer tain auditing and monitoring of the Canada-Manitoba Energy Agreement. Is that . ? HON. W. PARASIUK: That's right, and this program is winding down and that's why you can see the different dollar amounts, and we're hoping and we're negot iating 2045

Monday, 18 June, 1984 to try and continue this type of program with the Federal Government because we think this is an ongoing activity that people should be involved in. We do provide audits with something called the energy audit bus that goes through Manitoba and conducts energy audits for businesses or homes or non-profit organizations. Not homes, sorry, businesses and non-profit organizations. We've got quite a backlog and we're trying to provide as many audits as we can on a cost-shared basis. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)( 1) -pass; 2.(d)(2)-p ass. 2.(e)( 1) Cut Home Energy Cost: Salaries; 2.(e)

(2) Other Expen ditur es - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I would assume that substantial increase from $7 1,0 00 to a little over half­ a-million, $571 ,000, involves a numb er of staff, a number of vehicles. Is this the item where we had the demons tration from the Legislature not so long ago which signalled or introduced the 20-odd vehicles that are involved in this program? Could the Minister give us some details on this? HON. W.

PARASIUK: This is the CHEC Home Loan Program which is administered by Manitoba Hydro and in the past, I think starting about 1977, these costs were picked up in the capital authority. After discussions with the Auditor I believe, or just on our own, we've decided these are more properly administrative costs that should be picked up as administration within the department. That covers the adminis tration and overhead costs of Hydro, and that's picked up on the $571 ,000 items. The item that the member is talking about, in terms of the Home Check-Up Program, was a new program launched through the Jobs Fund.

I expect that later today or tomorrow I'll cert ainly be in the discussion on Jobs Fund to answer those particular questions that he will raise. MR. H. ENNS: We ll, then perhaps the Minister could indicate to us what is covered under the $571 ,000 of Other Expenditur es in the Cut Home Energy Cost Program? HON. W. PARASIUK: We have two staff years here. We have inspection costs through MHRC. We have the administration costs of the utilities who are handling the loans and this is Manitoba Hydro and Winnipeg Hydro. We have some overhead costs from the department built into that as well. MR. H.

ENNS: None of this expenditur e then actually contribut es to, what I would call, the actual delivery of the program in terms of capital assets? HON. W. PA RASIUK: That's through the capital authority. Mr. Chairman, that's through the capital authority. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)( 1) -pass; 2.(e)(2)- pass. 2.(

f) Manitoba Energy Council. HON. W. PARASIUK: I introduced this in my opening statement and they're doing some work, and I would hope that they would be reporting to me by the fall. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, governments from time to time set up different advisory groups and councils of the kind that we are dealing with at this time.

Probably at no time in the history of this province have we been working with so many poten tial large energy questions. lt would be interes ting to note to what extent has the Minister or this government involved the advice or the opportunity for the Manitoba Energy Council, which I under stand is largely a citizens' group, to be party to some of the very basic and fundamental decisions that this Minister and this government is embarking on with respect to ener gy. HON. W. PARASIUK: I've had a couple of meetings with the Energy Council; the staff have had meetings with the Energy Council.

They are revie wing the t�pe of work we are doing within the department; they are taking a look at our longer-term needs. There are people on the council who are a mix of business and academic, and in a sense consumer people and their orientation has been more on the energy-conservat ion side, but they have been looking at some of the sort of larger questions, but they've been looking at those areas over which the province might have some influence and control in terms of trying to get a bigger bank for the energy conserva tion dollar that's been spent.

If you want, I can give you the names of the people on the board and so on. MR. H. ENNS: I suppose, Mr. Chairman, what I was really asking the Minister about is that we, at the initiation or the devolopment of advisory councils of this nature, we tend to pay considerable lip-service to the fact that it's important that outside of gover nment groups be given an opportunity to have some input with respect to major energy decisions.

I'm really ref erring to the kind of major energy decisions and discussions that this Minister and this department has been having, very specifical ly, with Northern States Power, with the WAPA group, with the Mandan, and I would assume we remind ourselves that particularly with respect to hydro-electric energy and hydro-electric power that that resour ce is of course the heritage of all Manitobans.

Is the Minister telling me that the Energy Council has really not been sought out to pass some comment or view, even in a very general way, the strategy, the direction that the government is going with respect to the major energy initiatives that this Minister obviously has embarked upon? HON. W. PARASIUK: As I said, we had general discussions regard ing the general strategy and we did indicate that we were pursuing major energy sales and at the same time trying to promote energy conservation domesticall y.

The response I got from the Energy Council was a positive response on that, and we did not go into the spec ifics of any of the particular negotiations that are under way. That is no different from what took place before. This Energy Council was established by the previous administration in 1980 and I'm not sure when it was appointed, but I know that none of the members or the council were involved in any of the negotiations that the previous administration was undertaking in terms of specifics. 2046

Monday, 18 June, 1914 MR. CMAIRMAN: 2.(f)- pass. 2.(

g) Manitoba Energy Authority -the Mem ber from Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Some of these questions may have been asked before. I was in the other set of Estimates on Thursday when this was first dealt with and if the Minister has already answered the questions, he can just indicate that and I can check the record. I would like to know just very quickly what the relat ionship is between hydro and the energy authority in the actual negotia tion?

Is there any approval involved by Hydro or is it Hydro supplying information to the Energy Authority and the Energy Authority proceeding from the point? HON. W PARASIUK: There's a member of Hydro who's on the Energy Author ity. it's in Hansard. I indicated last week that John Arnason, who's the president, and Saul Cherniack, who's the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro -staff are provided; they have been very involved as members of the negotiating teams and Manitoba Hydro approved the letter of understanding and approved the final sale agreement. MR. B.

RANSOM: Is the information that's provided to the Energy Authority basically the same where it overlaps with the general information that has been provided to the committee as we have talked about projections on load growth and that sort of thing? I ask that because the com mittee is always running somewhat behind and I'm just wondering whether those projections that had been presented to the committee in the past have basically remained In place or whether there have been significant alterations? HON. W. PARASIUK: They are basically Manitoba Hydro projec tions.

That's the reason why, when this is going to be looked at by the Public Utilit ies Committee, the Manitoba Energy Authority which has hydro people on it and Manitoba Hydro will be there and we can go through and have everyone there for the detailed analysis. MR. B. RANSOM: The Energy Auth ority actually negotiates the agreement. Who will make the decision about the construction date for Limestone?

Does the Energy Autho rity say to Hydro, "All right now we have concluded an agreement for 500 megawatts of power required on a certain day in 1993, now it's up to you to ensure that the power is ready to go at that point?" Is that strictly a Hydro decision? HON. W. PARASIUK: What it is, is I have asked, as Minister of Hydro, I have asked Hydro to accelerate their studie s, because we do have an agreement. I've asked them to conduct studies to determine the most economic time for the start-up of Limestone.

As I indicated earli er, I expect those studies to be completed through the summer and I would expect the decision with respect to the start-up of Limestone would be made In the fall and that would be, I would expect, made by the government, but I would expect that we would get a recommendation from Hydro. MR. B. RANSOM: Is it possible th