Manitoba Hansard — 27 May 1997 (Sitting 51, 36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-51

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 51 -1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 27, 1997

Member ASHTON, Sieve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Bon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Pe1er ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Bon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Bon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Bon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROC AN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Sian SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Bon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosano Vacam MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Welling1on Radisson Kildonan Sle.

Rose Seine River Rob I in-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Sreinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Inlerlake Brandon Easl Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley S1. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Poim Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inks1er The Pas Sl. Norbert Sl. Johns Elmwood Burrows S1urgeon Creek Brandon Wesl Osborne Assiniboia Sl. James River Easl Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonne! River Heighls Transcona Niakwa Sr. Viral Rupertsland Gladslone Crescenlwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turlle Mounlain Fort Garry Swan River Ponage Ia Prairie Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. p C. N.D.P. N.D P. PC. NDP P.C. PC PC p C. N.D.P.

3997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 27, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECE IVING PETITIONS Obstetrics Closure-Grace General Hospital Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the obstetrics program has always been an important part of the Grace Hospital's mandate; and THAT both people in the community and a number of government studies have recommended against the further closure of community hospitals' obstetrics programs; and THAT as a result of federal an� ?rovincial cuts in the health budget, hospitals are being forced to eliminate programs in order to balance their own budgets; and THAT the closure of the Grace Hospital obstetrics ward will mean laying off 54 health care professionals, many of whom have years of experience and dedicated service in obstetrics; and THAT moving to a model where more and more births are centred in the tertiary care hospitals will be more costly and decreases the choices for women about where they can give birth.

WHER EFORE YO UR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY TI-IA T the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) consider stopping the closure of the obstetrics program at Winnipeg's Grace Hospital. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the obstetrics program has always been an important part of the Grace Hospital's mandate; and THAT both people in the community and a number of government studies have recommended against the further closure of community hospitals' obstetrics programs; and THAT as a result of federal and provincial cuts in the health budget, hospitals are being forced to eliminate programs in order to balance their own budgets; and THAT the closure of the Grace Hospital obstetrics ward will mean laying off 54 health care professionals, many of whom have years of experience and dedicated service in obstetrics; and THAT moving to a model where more and more births are centred in the tertiary care hospitals will be more costly and decreases the choices for women about where they can give birth.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) consider stopping the closure of the obstetrics program at Winnipeg's Grace Hospital. Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk),

3998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 97 and it complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Dispense.

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic proportions; and

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended for women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman feels she is at risk; and

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and

WHEREAS a trip to and from these centres for a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost for some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. PRESENTING PETITIONS Obstetrics Closure-Grace General Hospital Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker , may I have leave to revert to Presenting Petitions? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for St.

James have leave to revert to Presenting Pet itions? [agreed] Ms. Mihychuk: I beg to present the petition of Shirley Ferguson, Shirley Pooke, Lis Gray and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) consider stopping the closure of the obstetrics program at the Winnipeg Grace Hospital. *

(1335) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Ben Sveinson (Acting Chairperson of the Committee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 205-The Dutch Elm Disease Amendment Act Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that leave be given to introduce Bill 205, The Dutch Elm Disease Amendment Act, Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia thyllose parasitaire de l'orme, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Intr oduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today a group - -

May 27, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3999 of seven educators and civic officials from Manchester, England, and representatives from the South Winnipeg Technical Centre. These visiting individuals are affiliated with the Technical and Vocational Education Initiative of the Trafford Education Committee. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. Also seated in the public gallery we have this afternoon twenty-two Grade 9 students from Kelvin High School under the direction of Mr. Tony Lopez and Ms. Lorna Olafson.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUES TION PERIOD Domestic Violence Case Review Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

Yesterday, his Minister of Justice restated the zero tolerance policy of the provincial government, and we were asking the government whether in fact the public incident reported in the Legislature here yesterday was dealt with in a way consistent with the Premier's statement on zero tolerance in his promise to the people of Manitoba. The minister restated the policy but did not give this House or the people of Manitoba any indication that an investigation would take place to ensure that the Premier's words were in fact implemented in the public case.

I would like to ask the Premier: Who will be investigating the incident referred to yesterday in Question Period, and who will determine whether the alleged victim of this physical abuse case was in fact dealt with fairly and consistently with the policy stated by the Premier in the '95 election? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as indicated yesterday, it has been one of the primary policies of this government to ensure that domestic violence is minimized. We are concerned about that issue. We have stated our position very, very clearly.

We have communicated our position over and over again to the police forces. The police forces have indicated that they accept that policy and they carry that policy out. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, it is one thing to state the policy; it is another matter, as Dorothy Pedlar stated, to implement the policy. What we are asking for from this government is not a restatement of the policy, which everybody in this Legislature supports, but rather a review of the alleged incident to ensure that the policy direction as articulated by the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) of the province and restated by the Minister of Justice yesterday was in fact followed through in the case. What we are calling on this government to do is to provide some degree of support to the domestic violence policy and domestic abuse policy by ensuring that an investigation will take place by the Department of Justice on this case to ensure that the zero tolerance case was in fact implemented. I would like to ask the government again: Who will be investigating this matter to ensure public credibility on the stated policy of the provincial government? *

(1340) Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, perhaps the Leader of the Opposition could be excused for these irresponsible statements that he is making in the Legislature today. This is a person who has no concern about due process that may be occurring in the courts. He feels that he can comment about matters that are before the courts. I am satisfied that the appropriate steps are being taken at this time, and if any other steps are requir ed, this government will take those steps. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, again, for the legal niceties of the Minister of Justice, it is our responsibility to ensure that the due process as committed by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to the public of Manitoba is followed through. It is our responsibility to ensure that the public words of the Premier are followed through with public policies of the Department of Justice. That is the due process in this Legislature, and I wonder why the Minister of Justice is ducking his responsibilities to ensure that an investigation takes place to ensure that Manitobans-that the Premier's words were implemented.

4000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1997 All we are asking for is an investigation to ensure that a woman who was a victim, allegedly a victim of physical abuse, was given the same protection as all citizens of Manitoba deserve under the zero tolerance policy. Will the Premier ensure that that investigation takes place? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, it is interesting enough that this Leader of the Opposition would refer to the legal process, the justice system, as a legal nicety. I am surprised at the member of the opposition.

You know, maybe I should not be so surprised, because he was a member of the government when the policy was to throw women in jail who refused to testify in court cases. That is the kind of justice that he understands. I am proud to stand with the former ministers of Justice, the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey), the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), and say that we have brought one of the most progressive policies in respect of defending women in domestic disputes, and we will stand by that policy. If there are any steps that need to be taken, we will take those steps. Prosecutions Division Workload Mr.

Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice. Recently we have become aware of at least two domestic violence cases going to trial, yet with no witnesses-Crown prosecution errors: Robert Guiboche, mistakenly released from the Remand Centre, largely due to a prosecution error; yesterday we heard of a Crown's opinion that there was not enough evidence to proceed on a domestic violence charge against a police officer. That was apparently in error and against policy and was later rejected.

Now a Crown prosecutor has given an inaccurate, a faulty opinion on whether the Nancy Friday book is obscene, which has become a national story. My question for the minister is this: Would the minister admit that the Prosecutions branch, yet comprised of dedicated and excellent prosecutors and staff, is overworked, understaffed to the point that the Manitoba justice system is again coming into disrepute? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I note how the member, on the one hand, slams the professional people who are working in our public service and that he in fact seems to derive a certain amount of pleasure out of criticizing public servants. Point of Order Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on a point of order. *

(1345) Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Madam Speaker, Beauchesne is very clear both in regard to the need for ministers to respond to the matter raised and also not to attribute motives. It has been very clear that the minister is doing that. If the minister would have only listened to the

preamble of the member, he would have noticed that the only criticism levelled was not against the Prosecutions branch but the staffing level, which is a decision that is made by government . So the minister should accept responsibility for it. Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I will take the matter under advisement to research the comments made by the minister in Hansard and report back. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, to complete his response. Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, I am very proud of the staff that I have who serve the public of Manitoba, who are concerned about justice issues, who deal with the very difficult legal system. We in this government have made repeated attempts to have the Criminal Code amended. Unfortunately, the Liberal government in Ottawa has seen fit not to amend many of the sections that we would like to see brought about so as to reduce some of the technical legal requirements that, in my opinion, are not necessary for the due administration of justice.

So, rather than criticizing public servants, I would ask the opposition to stand together with me to ensure that - -

May 27, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4001 the federal Liberal government brings about appropriate legislative policies. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with a supplementary question. Mr.

Mackintosh: Would the minister, who has ignored the issue raised in my question, tell us who Manitobans are to believe, the minister who said in extensive questioning in the House just last Thursday about the Nancy Friday book's opinion that, and I quote: There was a very strong network and supportive system with appropriate resources and backup for Crown prosecutors, or the Assistant Deputy Attorney General who says, and I quote: It is embarrassing that we did not have the kind of infrastructure in place to support the Crown attorney who was asked to give the opinion? Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, I am certainly [inte rjection] Well, the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) has something to say. Maybe he could get up on his feet and talk once in awhile, but he certainly seems to take a lot of pleasure just sitting in his seat and spouting off. Anyway, I certainly have discussed the issue with- An Honourable Member: Another third minister to strike three. Mr. Toews: Well, you guys never stay in power long enough to keep three ministers. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Justice, to quickly co .. 1plete his response. Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, I have certainly had discussions with the Crown attorneys involved in this matter, and I was certainly very pleased to see the prompt manner in which the Crown attorneys assisted the police in their request for not only one, but two opinions. I note, indeed, that the Assistant Deputy Attorney General indicated that he would be implementing a policy which would, in fact, ensure that opinions are provided in a prompt fashion to the police with a minimum of administrative concerns so that police were not dissuaded from requesting Crown opinions.

I think the actions of the Deputy Attorney General are very, very responsible. Mr. Mackintosh: Would this rattled minister at least, a person who repeatedly told this House that everything was just fine in providing the legal opinion regarding the Nancy Friday book, not face up to the shortcomings in Prosecutions and take some meaningful action to assure Manitobans, notably the police, that the Justice department knows what it is doing? Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, there the member goes again criticizing the prosecutors.

I want to say that, of the hundreds and thousands of cases that they deal with, they deal with these matters in a very, very professional way. I am proud of the prosecutors in my department. Indeed, I am proud of all the staff. You know, the government reviews periodically what resources are required, and this was one of the difficult choices that you make. For example, we indicated that we wanted more resources in the area of public safety rather than in the Law Reform Commission.

It is a difficult choice, but that is a choice that this government made, and I am proud to stand with this government and the prosecutors in dealing with issues such as crime. *

(1350) Health Care System Role of Nursing Profession Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, nursing is a responsibility of the provincial government. The government is training baccalaureate nurses, LPNs and nurses' aides and have laid off over a thousand nurses in hospitals in Manitoba. We have numerous studies over the past few years about the nursing situation in Manitoba, and at the same time nurses are leaving the province to seek employment elsewhere.

Can the Minister of Health specifically outline what the government's strategy and plan is for nurses in Manitoba, what the nursing component will be comprised of, and can he please outline that for the House and for the nurses and public of Manitoba? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, I think the member for Kildonan has part of his equation wrong. Although the province has a very significant role to play, there are also professional organizations involved in nursing that have

4002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1997 a legislated responsibility for setting standards and doing a number of things that ultimately affect the mix of caregivers in our institutions and our various programs. I look forward to getting into this discussion. It is obviously too large an issue to deal with in a IS-second or 30-second answer in Question Period. I look forward to getting into that kind of detail with him when we reach our line in Estimates. Mr.

Chomiak: Will the minister not admit that it is in fact government policy to follow the recommendations of the very unlamented but well-remembered Connie Curran, who visited this province and who recommended the structure that is being put in place of a nurse administrator and nurses' aides in all of our hospital and acute care facilities? Is it not in fact government policy that they are following to the very "t" the recommendations of the very unlamented Connie Curran when she came to Manitoba on that disastrous exercise? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I believe the member is referring to Connie Curran who hired Michael Deeter who used to set policy for the New Democrats in Manitoba. I think that is the same Connie Curran to which he refers. First of all, within every group of caregivers or professionals in health care, change is inevita�le. The nursing profession for many, many years, gomg back even before this administration was in power, worked very hard at changing and seeing a new role in their training programs that would result ultimately i� a different role for different parts of the nursmg profession in the health care system.

So that has be�n happening for a long time, long even before th1s administration came into power. I think what you see in many, many facilities across the province is the desire to have the appropriate staff delivering appropriate services and ensuring that we can get more hands in basic patient care in our facilities, which I think no one would disagree is very important. Mr. Chomiak: Will the minister outline what the government policy is with respect to th_e 23 �PNs who will be given notice by Victoria Hosp1tal With respect to losing their jobs, in conjunction with the LPNs who have lost their jobs at St.

Boniface, Health Sciences Centre, Concordia Hospital, Seven Oaks Hospital? Will the minister not admit that it is provincial policy that is driving these decisions, and will he tell us what the government position is in this regard since they fund the program entirely. The minister is hiding behind the boards and not taking responsibility. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I have sat in this Chamber for many years and I have listened to the debate about nursing.

The member for Kildonan very well knows that there are a lot of factors that fit into the equation when one is looking at which group �f professionals are providing what work. One of them 1s the professional standards set by organizations; another is the cost of those particular people in delivering service. There are also changes in services that an institution may require. These are all very legitimate factors that fit into the patient mix decisions that administrations, that facilities make.

If the member is attempting to express concern for the future of the LPN profession, I can tell him the former minister had concerns about that; I share some of those. I have had meetings with representatives of the LPN professional body. I have also discussed this matter with their union, the Manitoba Nurses' Union, and we have to find a way that realistically fits them into the system. I am prepared to do that, not engage in rhetoric with the member. Health Care System Hip Replacement Waiting List Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, 77- year-old Jessie Chomick fell and broke her hip in November 1996.

Surgery was performed for a partial replacement which is now failing, causing intense pain and further health risks for Mrs. Chomick. She has been advised by her doctor to have a complete hip replacement, but the waiting list is over one year. My question for the Minister of Health is: Since many people who have fractured their hips o_r ?roken their hips die prematurely, I want to ask the Mm1ster of Health to explain why Mrs. Chornick and many other Manitobans should have to wait more than one year to have what could be life-saving surgery. - -

May 27, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4003 * (1 355) Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, in fairness to the member, I am not aware of all the specific details. I think he flags some specific difficulties or complications in that case but to his specific question-and it is a very legitimate question about one-year waiting lists for these types of surgeries. We on this side recognize that is a very long time to wait for people who require that type of replacement. I know we are doing more in the province today than we have done in the past.

That is not yet good enough, and we are looking at ways of being able to perform more surgery. It is not always just a matter of more money; it is the way we organize the system. It is having time available in operating rooms; it is how doctors prioritize people on lists. Those are all very legitimate parts of fixing the problem. The member flags a very legitimate problem. We are working at resolving that or at least getting that waiting list down. Mr. Reid: The minister received a letter on May 7, so this should be an issue that is familiar to him.

I want to ask the Minister of Health: Since the orthoplasty program is already short of funds by some $200,000 and is projected to be short of funds by up to half a million dollars by the end of this year, what plan does the minister have to prevent a total shutdown of this surgical program, forcing our doctors to leave the province of Manitoba? What plan or policy do you have in place to address that short fund? Mr.

Praznik: One of the concerns that was expressed to my predecessor and to me as the new Minister of Health is that one of the difficulties in the way in which we budget for certain programs is on the institutional basis. Often, Madam Speaker, they do not allow us to recognize or to put resources in high-priority areas because they are carried in institutional budgets. That is a difficulty we are trying to address with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. It may require-and I admit this-additional resources to be put into that area.

I know, working with Treasury Board now, we are looking at identifying some resources to reduce waiting lists in a variety of areas. Mr. Reid: Since one doctor at least that I have spoken to has over 70 cases waiting and since this government put in an extra half a million dollars just prior to the 1995 election to address the long waiting lists, will this minister now take similar steps so that people like Jessie Chornick and other Manitobans who are waiting on the waiting lists now do not have to have that surgery postponed, possibly risking their lives? Will you put that extra funding in there now? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, one of the factors that fits into long waiting lists-and I know from my work as an MLA prior to becoming Minister of Health when I had similar cases brought to my attention in my constituency, one of the factors that fits in is the popularity of the particular physician who is doing the work. There are cases where physicians, because they are noted as being experts in their particular field, have waiting lists that are significantly longer than others. That is one factor that fits into the mix. I appreciate the concern that the member has addressed.

I just flag with him that sometimes in certain cases the particular popularity, professionalism, expertise, et cetera, of a physician will result in longer waiting lists for patients who wish to be serviced by that physician or treated by that physician. Education System Grade 3-Standa rdized Testing Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Ink ster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. I have a son who happens to be in Grade 3 and like hundreds of other- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Lamoureux: There is a reason why I say that. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, to pose his question, please. *

(1400) Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, hundreds of Grade 3 students today for the first time are writing the standard exams, and the question I have for the Minister of Education: Given the cutbacks and the

4004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1997 freezes that this government has put onto public education, is this the best way to be spending tax dollars-for Grade 3 standard exams? One might be able to justify it for the latter years but for Grade 3-is this in fact a good priority? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Educat ion and Training): Madam Speaker, the member has mentioned two points that warrant response.

One is the cutbacks, and I have to indicate, particularly to this father of a Grade 3 student, that his party in Ottawa in 1994, '95 was giving this province $741 million in transfer payments, and this year we are going to be getting $499 in transfer payments-a huge, huge, huge cut that we have to deal with here for education for our students. Having said that, I can think of no better way to help prepare my friend's son for a good learning experience and good mathematical abilities and to build a firm foundation that has been properly assessed, properly diagnosed.

The Grade 3 exams are diagnostic exams to make sure that his little boy knows the fundamentals and the prerequisites for the next level of learning before he proceeds on-money very well spent, an essential part of the learning process. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with a supplementary question. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Education's response with respect to the federal government I would question.

Does the Minister of Education realize that the block funding that comes from Ottawa is for post-secondary education and that, in fact, equalization payments are up tremendously from the year previously? So the minister should not be confusing those numbers with her department's responsibilities. Will she acknowledge that she has to take the responsibility for financing K to 12 and set the priorities right? Mrs.

Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, when a cut comes through to the provincial government that is roughly the equivalent of the operating budget of our largest university, $220 million, the operating budget of the University of Manitoba-the cut that we received from Ottawa is bigger than that-and that block funding is for Health, Education and Family Services, perhaps the member could tell me how he would make the adjustment. Shall we take more from French Immersion, which they have also cut on top of the block grant? Shall we take more from St. Boniface College? Shall we take more then from Health?

That is also the equivalent of several community hospitals in the City of Winnipeg operating budget. Shall the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) close those hospitals so that I do not have to take money from Education as a whole to make sure I do not have to close the University of Manitoba? Do not tell me that equalization makes up for it. Do not give me that line. Maybe he can talk to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) here and understand the impact of those federal cuts, and perhaps then he would be more understanding of the dilemma his federal cousins have put us in. Mr.

Lamoureux: Maybe the Minister of Education could talk to the Minister of Finance- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Lamoureux: My question to the Minister of Education: Can she confirm to this House that the costs of administering the standard exams for Grade 3 students is more than the increase that this government has given public education in the last couple of years? Mrs. Mcintosh: I can and I will get the exact figures for the member, but I can tell you that overall our whole process of assessment and testing in all categories works out to about $50 or $60 a student.

When I consider all of the other things that this member and the other members in the other party in opposition would spend money on, that amount per pupil to make sure that there has been a proper assessment, that it is a standard and the outcome that has been desired has been met, that children can add and subtract before they go on to multiply and divide, that we know that, we ascertain that, and there is a standard across the province that is known and understood, that is money well spent. It is an integral part of the learning process.

Without it, you are missing a very vital component of education anywhere in the world. - -

May 27, 1 997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4005 Grain Trans portation Railway Industr y Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, farmers across the Prairies were very frustrated this last winter when the two major railways did not provide adequate services and, as a result, Canada's reputation as an exporter was put at risk and farmers lost millions of dollars in sales and demurrage. The Canadian Wheat Board has brought complaints to the Canadian Transportation Agency against the railways, and they are supported by farmers.

As well, they are supported by the Saskatchewan government which has applied for intervener status in this case. Can the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) indicate whether the Manitoba government will be standing with the farmers as well and applying for intervener status on this issue? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Tra nsportation): Madam Speaker, the member certainly highlights a very significant problem that has happened in terms of grain transportation in western Canada over the last, probably fair to say, eight-month period of time. Recent indications are the problem still continues.

The position we take as the Manitoba government is not to point fingers or to find fault, because we believe there are many parties involved in trying to find a resolution here. Our mission-and the Minister of Agriculture and I have written several letters to our federal counterparts advocating that they bring all the players together with the mission · 1 find a resolution to the problems so they do not reoccur again in the next crop year or the next winter or anywhere in the near future. There are a multitude of problems in the industry.

Yes, the railways and the weather played a major factor, but they were not the only factors, particularly when you look at the fact that some of the problems sti II exist. Bring all the players around the table and resolve the problems for the long-term betterment of the farmers and the industry in western Canada, not take sides and point fingers. We do not think that is the right solution. Ms.

Wowchuk: Certainly we have to find solutions to resolve these, but would the minister not agree that this government should also be standing with farm organizations like KAP and the National Farmers Union that have applied for intervener status to deal with this case? Why will this government not apply for intervener status as well to show farmers their support? Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, the member did not listen to the previous answer, because I said very clearly we want to support the farmers by finding a resolution.

We have written several letters, and I have talked to the federal Minister of Transport, David Anderson, about bringing the appropriate players around the table with a neutral chairman and a consensus builder to find resolutions so that it does not repeat. That is how we can help the farmers in the future. If we are going to draw lines and decide which enemy camp we are going to join, it does not resolve the problem. Let us get at the issue, get resolution that will involve all the players.

We have very actively taken that position-direct contact with the federal Minister of Transport, numerous letters and in talking with people in the industry. The broad acceptance is we have to find resolutions, which the member also indicated, find resolutions, so that is how we will stand with the farmers of Manitoba. Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, since this is an important issue to Manitobans, will the Premier indicate whether this issue wiJJ be on the table at the Premiers' conference this week?

If it is not, will he ensure that there is discussion on the transportation of grain to market so that Canadian farmers do not face the same problems that they faced last winter? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Yes, Madam Speaker. *

(1410) Education System Student User Fees Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. The issue of students being charged user fees to cover teachers' salaries for students who are participating on

4006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1997 school teams was raised by the Metro Community Newspaper on April 23, raised in this House by myself on April 28, and it continues even to today. I ask the minister: In light of the fact that this government does not support team sports or team athletics in any way, will the minister recognize that these types of user fees being charged to students discriminate against student athletes with limited financial resources? This is a direct discriminatory practice. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Not accepting any of the

preamble-and I think it is important to state that I am not accepting any of the

preamble. I will accept that there was a newspaper

article in the local community newspaper with allegations but, Madam Speaker, I say to you that user fees in schools have always been with us. I warrant when the member opposite was a student that she probably paid user fees for locker- Ms. Mihychuk: No. Mrs. Mcintosh: You paid no locker fee. The member opposite, Madam Speaker- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Education, to quickly complete her response. Mrs.

Mcintosh: The member made reference to user fees, and then she made specific reference to the fact that in some divisions collective agreements now give teachers instructional days off in exchange for extracurricular hours worked. In those instances, some school divisions then are asking for fees for registration for team sports, but those are things that teachers have asked for and bargained in collective agreements. There is a whole host of new things. The member opposite, I know, when she was in school had to pay locker fees, student fees, et cetera.

Those things have not changed, but there are new items that do warrant extra costs to school divisions that were never there in years past. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. James, with a supplementary question. Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, can the minister or this government tell us how many potential world-class athletes will never get the chance to develop in their sport because of the growth of this type of user fee, and when will this minister do her job on behalf of students in Manitoba and stop the practice of user fees being charged for teachers' salaries? Mrs.

Mcintosh : Madam Speaker, the member the other day rose in the House and alleged that students were being charged to walk through the door of a classroom. I have asked her twice to give me specific information. She has not done that. We have contacted schools. We have not found any school that charges a fee for students to walk through the door.

I also indicate that I have received no complaints from the Manitoba athletic association, from high school teachers, et cetera, about the fact that teachers who are now getting instructional time off, days off school for having taught extracurricular time as part of new collective agreement arrangements, I have not heard any complaints from those teachers about their students at risk. I do not think I will either. TeleSend Gateway Inc. Funding Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier.

The question concerns the TeleSend Gateway project that this minister recommended for funding. In Estimates, the minister said he thought Shalesa Charron was the president at TeleSend Gateway Inc., and stated that he sent the three cheques totalling $200, 000 to TeleSend Gateway Inc. However, company records show that Shalesa Charron is not the president of TeleSend Gateway Inc. but that Helen T. Ishmael is the president. Can he confirm that he gave all three cheques to TeleSend Gateway Inc. and Helen T.

Ishmael, and why did he say in Estimates, "There may be some confusion as to the makeup of the company and the family."? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industr y, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, again, I want to inform the member that the initial negotiations and - -

May 27, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4007 discussions-! am inf orming him that there was the involvement of a person by the name of Robert Lee, as well, in checking the records, who was also involved at that particular time. Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, can the minis ter confirm that the money, the $200,000, was used fo r its intended purposes? Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, I am inf ormed by the department that, yes, it was used fo r the purposes fo r which it was intended to be used. Mr.

Maloway: Madam Speaker, I do not know how he knows the money was used properly when he does not know who he gave the money to in the first place. Background Check Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My final supplementary to the same minis ter is this. In Estimates, the minister stated that he checked the credit histories and backgrounds of the principals and shareholders ofTe leSend Gateway Inc. Can he tell us what he fo und out? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industr y, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, probably more importantly, what was discovered was the people who were part of the overall company that were doing the project, like AT&T, Mr. Robert Lee, they were the indiv iduals that were the main participants at that particular time, so fa irly credible individuals who we were dealing with. Education System Student User Fees Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I can see that the Minister of Finance and Sport and the Minis ter of Education and Training (Mrs.

Mcintosh) are finally conf erring on this issue of the fe es being paid by student athletes and teams in our school system. When I raised this issue yesterday in the Sport Estimates, the Minis ter of Finance claimed that he knew nothing of it, but I have today with me the

article fr om the Metro Newspaper which stated that it was Oak Park High School where there were letters that were sent to athletes participating on teams that were going to have to miss school and that the school team would have to raise the funds to pay fo r the substitute teacher.

I want to ask him now today, since he has had a chance to verify the inf ormation as we have raised it in the House, if this is not a violation of the Manitoba sport policy which states that they have a mandate to develop appropriate mechanisms and programs to assist educators involved in sport, and will he not now see how this policy will be implemented so that young athletes in Manitoba will not be discrim inated against in school divisions? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Madam Speaker, no, it is not in violation of the Manitoba sport policy as outlined.

It is nice that for a change a member opposite brought a little bit of specific inf ormation. Yesterday she had absolutely none in Estimates. As I indicated to her yesterday and I have confirmed again this morning, this issue has not been brought to the attention of the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association. They certainly have not brought it to our attention. No individual teachers have brought it to my attention, no individual schools, no school divisions. So at this particular point in time, it is not an issue that is being raised as a concern within the sport community.

As well, in discussion with Sport Manitoba, it is not an issue that has been raised by Sport Manitoba. So, finally, the member has brought a little bit of specific inf ormation, and we will look into that issue. Madam Speaker: Time fo r Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DA Y House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I have a motion to move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr.

Toews) (by leave), that the deadline fo r submission of the report of the Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections concerning the review of the sections of The Child and Family Services Act pertaining to the Of fice of the Children's Advocate be extended fr om May 30, 1997, to June 12, 1997.

4008 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1997 Motion agreed to. * (1 420) Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I believe there might be leave to waive private members' hour today. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to waive private members' hour? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concu rrent Sections) SPORT Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Sport. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 28. l .(

a) on page 12 2 of the Estimates book. Shall this item pass? Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I think I am going to start off where we left off just now in Question Period. I have a copy of the Metro news

article fo r the mini ster-! do not know if he has seen that-which names at least one school there that issued letters requiring that participants in a varsity boys basketball team are going to have to cover costs related to substitute teachers that were required to replace the teacher-coaches who were accompanying them on a tournament. Ye sterday, the minister was saying he did not have any inf ormation to confirm that, and fr om the answers today in the House, I am not sure what kind of research his staff or the Department of Education has done. This has been an issue since April 23 .

It was raised in the House April 28, so it is not that new. I was concerned by his answer in the House claiming that this does not in any way go against the sport policy. I am not sure where that has come fr om since I asked the question yesterday. I am wanting to see if the minister is now going to reconsider his response after seeing this newspaper clipping, and if he can tell me what steps they have taken to investigate this since April 28, when it was raised in the House. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr.

Chairman. the response I gave to the member in Question Period earlier today is still the same one in terms of no conflicts with any of our policies, certainly at this particular point in time. I think this one

article in the Metro One is far fr om clear in terms of what is, in ef f ect. taking place in this particular school division. As I have indicated to her. we will get specific fa cts and details as to just what has transpired and what the options being put fo rward to the school and the athletes are. As I responded to her earlier. and we checked again today with the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Assoc iation, this issue has not been raised with them.

Obviously. they have not raised it with us, either with Sport Manitoba or with officials within my department and have expressed no concerns about this issue at this particular point in time, nor have individual schools, parents, athletes, directly to myself or to Sport Manitoba or to the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association. This is an issue raised in one

article in the Metro One. That is the only documentation pointing to this issue whatsoever, and as I indicated to the member yesterday, we will certainly get the fa cts, and based on the fa cts we will then determine whether or not it requires any comment or action fr om us. Ms. Cerilli: I would like fo r the minister, first of all, to explain to me-he said that this does not contravene the sport policy fo r Manitoba in any way.

What does it mean then in the sport policy, to develop appropriate mechanisms and programs to assist educators involved in sport, if that is not to ensure that they have every opportunity to coach and to then be absent from their class if that is necessary fo r them to coach or to officia te or any other role they might play related to sport? - -

May 27, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4009 I cannot believe, fra nkly, that he is claiming that this would not violate this sport policy. It also raises other questions in terms of how this policy is going to be implemented, but I want the minister to explain to me how this practice of having sports teams have to now fu ndraise to pay fo r substitute teachers is not going to compromise the objectives that they have.

The government of Manitoba recognizes the education system as an integral component of the sport delivery system in Manitoba and will encourage the educational system to enhance the role of sport in education and education in sport. Either the minister has no comprehension of discrim ination based on economic status or it is incomprehensible that he can say that this is not a violation of their policy. I do not know which it is, but I want him to explain it. Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Chairman, irrespective of what kinds of questions the member fo r Radisson asks or what irrelevant rhetoric she puts on the record, there is nothing to indicate that there is a conflict with the sport policy document that is in place today. Again, I think the prudent thing to do, the responsible thing, would be to get the absolute fa cts behind what is happening in Assiniboine South School Division and with Oak Park. She raises the issue of discrimi nation based on economic status. I know she has certainly participated in sport, fo llowed sport to some extent, and sport in general.

Most sport governing bodies, most sport organizations do their utmost to ensure that athletes are not precluded based on economic status. There are programs through Sport Manitoba that assist with support fo r fam ilies that are in economic situations that require support, and I know fr om first-hand involveme nt with some sports, they do their absolute utmost not to have children precluded fr om participating based on their economic status. They want young people, they want youth participating and they will do whatever they can to overcome any hurdles that that may cause. *

(1450) Having said all of that, most of our sports, to varying degrees, have various charges whether it is related to, in this particular case they refer to some costs related to transportation services, hotel accommodations, obviously most sports have costs in terms of equipment, in terms of fac ilities, all of those kinds of things. It is certainly not uncommon fo r sport to charge a fe e relative to the cost of providing that sport, but sport in general does a very good job of ensuring access and reducing and minim izing any impediment caused by economic situations. Ms.

Cerilli: I beg to differ with that statement, because the min ister should take a look at the availability of sport to low income people in this province. The issue I want to deal with right now is, is the minis ter saying that this is an acceptable practice, to have student athletes have to fundr aise to pay fo r substitute teachers? Is he saying that he thinks this is one of the acceptable costs that go along with participating in sport now? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I did not say that, and I do not need the member fo r Radisson to attempt to put any words into my mouth.

I did indicate that we will get the absolute fa cts as to what is taking place in this school division. I have indicated to her, other than her one story fr om the Metro One newspaper and no other documentation, no other inf ormation, the other organizations that are directly involved in high school athletics have brought no inf ormation relative to this to our attention and have not expressed any concerns at this particular point in time, in terms of access, in terms of opportunities and so on.

In terms of education, I know there are some areas that fo cus on support fo r what they would call sanctioned sports or sanctioned tournaments within education, and if a coach is participating in a noneducation sanctioned activity, tournament or sport, that they might then have to make some arrangements relative to their substitute.

So again, it is not clear in terms of this particular tournament how it related back to whether it is a sanctioned tournament by Assiniboine Park, what the relationship is with Ass iniboine Park with this tournament and I think the most responsible thing I can do is to get some fa cts on this inf ormation and then judge the situation based on fac ts. Ms. Cerilli: Well, the minis ter is trying to again deal with these concerns and problem areas by saying that he cannot deal with the issue right now because he is going to find excuses in saying he does not have enough inf ormation.

But we are dealing with policy matters here, and policy matters do not have to have

40 10 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1997 specific detailed inf ormation. We are dealing with policy statements that he, his government was involved in developing. I want to deal with the issue where you are claiming that because you have not heard any complaints by schools or school divisions or parents or the High Schools Athletic Association-! do not think that washes because if what athletes and teams are being told is it is either this or nothing, it is either you finance your teams including this fe e or you do not get to participate, then you put the sports in a very diffi cult situation.

I am sure there are participants in sport in Manitoba, in high school sport that would have serious problems with this if this is going to be a trend. It is interesting that it is first occurring in Oak Park where I would suggest to the minis ter there is going to be less economic hardship than some of the other areas of our province, and I would think that other school divisions would not even attempt to have a policy like this because they know that it would destroy their sports programs. They know it would destroy their intercollegiate sport programs.

I understand the minister when he is suggesting that if this is a sport that is not part of a school division program, it may be a different story. If that is what he is saying he wants to clarify, that is acceptable. But I am talking about a more general policy trend, that if this is going to occur in sanctioned Manitoba high school athletic events, is the minister prepared to have the costs fo r substitute teachers to pay fo r absent coaches, teacher-coaches, if that is acceptable? I am asking him that very direct policy question, which is what we are here to address in these Estimates.

I know that the minister sort of has his prearranged responses that he has given today and in the House, but I want to ask him specifica lly on that policy issue. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I want to assure the member fo r Radisson there were no prearranged responses to any question she might have. I wish I could read her mind, but I cannot, and I could not necessarily anticipate what question she might ask me or any other minister.

But I think the most indicative thing of her last rambling was she used the word "if' fo ur or five times, and that is the key here, because she is asking hypothetical questions; she is asking if this, if that, if this. We could take that kind of discussion to its absolute extreme in terms of policy decisio ns of government or issues that might fa ce governments. [interjection] It is not weak at all. Go back and read Hansard in terms of your very specific question. If this, if that, if this, all hypothetical questions. We have one story fr om one newspaper that is not very clear in terms of what it is providing.

What we will do is we will get the fa cts. If we determine there to be any conflict with our sport policy based on what I have seen today, and I do not think there is conflict, but we will determine that. We will get the fac ts, and fr om that we will decide whether or not it requires any further action on our part. Ms. Cerilli: It is very slick of you, sliding around in that fas hion, but I think that this is unacceptable. For you to come to Estimates and continue to have those types of answers is not serving the purpose of what we are here to do.

If I ask a policy question and I use the word "if ," because you are not accepting the evidence that is there in black and white in a newspaper article, I will not use the word "if," and I will not accept your answer of saying there is not enough evidence that it is occurring. Now, Mr. Mini ster, the policy statement is very clear. I want you to tell me how you claim to be able to implement a policy like this which is going to have to be implemented by a school division, when your Minister of Education (Mrs.

Mcintosh) continues to claim that she has no jurisdiction when school divisions try to, or do, in fa ct, cut certain programs or institute certain user fe es. How do you claim to have the ability to fu lfill your policy, as I have quoted earlier. I was not putting any convoluted ramblings on the record; I was reading from your policy which states you will encourage the education system to enhance the role of sport in education. Those are your words. How are you going to implement that in a school division? Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, this is interesting.

The member fo r Radisson can find my answers as unacceptable as she wants. The reality is my answers are what they are, and she should be accepting and appreciating that from our point of view, -

May 27, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 40 11 the most responsible thing to do is to get the fa cts, and I keep reminding her. I know she does not very often like to operate fr om fac ts. It is usually fr om innuendo and fr om lack of inf ormation. I think the responsible thing would be to get-[inteij ection] Well, she ref ers to cheap. She should just reread her comments fo r the last 15 minutes if she wants to look up the definition of the word "cheap," and she will see it in black and white, Mr. Chairman. I have indicated to her very clearly, we will get the fa cts.

That is a responsible thing to do as government, which we have to do because we are in government, and based on those fa cts, we will determine whether or not it requires any other action or comment fr om us. * (1 500) Ms. Cerilli: Are you going to answer the question about the policy implemented in your sport policy document in a school division? That was my specific question. How do you implement your sport policy in a school division? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, sport policy is dealt with through the Department of Education and through the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association.

The Board of Directors of Sport Manitoba have one representative on the board selected fr om the field of the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association and the universities and the Physical Education Teachers Association. Ms. Cerilli: So how does it work? How do they ensure that schools in the education system are going to be fo llowing your sport policy? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, one of the key vehicles is the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association. That certainly is a major part of their responsibility, and we work directly with them. Ms.

Cerilli: So the minister is saying that it is up to the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Associa tion to ensure that

Section 7 of his sport policy is fo llowed by the education system. Mr. Stefanson : No, I am not quite saying that, Mr. Chairman. I am saying that they are a governing body fo r high school athletics. They are well aware of the sport policy document. They had involvement and participation in its preparation. So they certainly are one vehicle to assess the relationship between sport policy and implementation within the educational system. As well, the Department of Education is aware of the sport policy, and there is liaison with the Department of Education.

So, through those vehicles, Education is aware of the sport policy, and then Sport Mani toba, of course, is the governing body fo r sport that has an overall responsibility to assess the implementation of the sport policy. Ms. Cerilli: We are still a little vague here. How does it work? How, when you have a situation like this, which you are now investigating, where you have said one thing that is clear, that there is a liaison between Sport and Education, who does that liaising in both Sport Manitoba or any other staff that you are involved with, and who is involved in Education?

Then, fr om there, what is the role of government in dealing with the school division, because they are the ones that are actually-as the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Mcintosh), I am sure, would tell us- they are the ones that are responsible in dealing with any particular school in the school division? Mr. Stefanson : First of all, Mr. Chairman, I am not sure it is fa ir to say I am now investigating this situation at Oak Park.

We are certainly going to start by obtaining the fa cts fr om the school and the school division, but most importantly, there is a staffperson within Sport Manitoba that liaisons with Education. There also is the board member I ref erred to that is selected fr om a combination of the organizations like the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Assoc iation, the universities and the Phys Ed Teachers Assoc iation, so those are the vehicles of the liaising back with the Department of Education with bodies like the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association and so on. Ms.

Cerilli: I am getting really concerned with the Minister fo r Sport here because it seems that you have a very nice policy, sport policy, in dealing with education and sport but it is pretty unclear how it is actually going to be implemented into any given school

40 12 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1997 and school division and how you are going to follow up. So now you are saying that there is a board member on the Sport Manitoba board. Would they be involved with having to liaise with all of the hundreds of schools we have in the province? I mean, that is impossible so there has to be a better way.

I am wondering if the minister has anything more that he can tell us to ensure that a type of practice-and what I would think is really going to have serious impl ications for the willingness of teacher coaches to participate in high school or any level of school sport if they are then going to have to be involved with their team in raising funds to pay for substitute teachers who are working in their absence, so it seems like, well, although we have a policy on paper, that the government is going to have difficulty in implementing this policy at the school and school division level.

I am wanting for him to clarify for me specifically how that works. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the member recognizes that we have one of the most comprehensive sport policies in all of Canada. In terms of its implementation, there are a few vehicles in terms of its interaction with the educational system. First and foremost, as I have already told her, is the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association and they have the kind of ongoing contact that she refers to with individual high schools. They are the sport governing body for Manitoba high school athletics.

They receive funding from Sport Manitoba for their organization to provide that service so they are a very direct link into high school athletics and certainly provide that service to sport in Manitoba. There also is the link with the Department of Education, in terms of their awareness of the sport policy and the issues surrounding the sport policy in Manitoba, so those are the two vehicles for implementation of the sport policy.

As I have indicated to her, in terms of our discussions with Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association, the one specific issue that she has brought up here today has not been raised by them but, more importantly, my understanding is they are very supportive of the sport policy and how sport is being treated here in Manitoba through the educational system and sport in general. * (1510 ) Ms. Cerilli: I want the minister to know that I support the sport policy, but it is not worth much if we cannot ensure that it is going to be implemen ted, and that is what I am getting at.

The minister has now clearly stated that there are three vehicles for doing that and it is going to be interesting. I have contacted the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association on this issue and I sent them the same

article that the minister has. I have been waiting for them to get back to me and I am wondering if they are aware of this. I am interested to hear what they have to say about the minister's perception of their role in terms of policy throughout school divisions in Manitoba, because I do not know if they have the resources or the wherewithal to be able to do that. The minister has not mentioned the department heads for physical education in all the school divisions. He has not mentioned any of the consultants and their having a role in this which have some link with the Department of Education.

In the past, there was a physical education consultant in the Department of Education and that person, I think, is gone. I do not know if they have ever been replaced. So there are some problems here, and I am going to be following this up, as the minister has said he will be, in the future. This has raised a whole new area of concern, and already athletics are unattainable due to financial limitations for a lot of Manitobans, particularly young people. This kind of practice of having teacher coaches have their replacements paid as part of the cost to sport is going to be a real hardship.

Again, the minister knows my experience, and I can tell you that this is a huge issue. I am not going to use the word "if." I believe this has occurred. We will see the implications it has for Manitoba high school athletic programs. I think it is a direct contravention of the stated policy of this government, and I think the government has to figure out how their policy is going to be implemented in all the school divisions so that sport is not compromised due to the financial constraints that the school divisions are under.

I recognize they are looking for ways that they can cut costs and save money, and there is a real problem occurring in the school system because of the increases of user fees in a number of activities. - -

May 27, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 40 13 This is not just a problem for sport. A number of activities, drama, band, are having increased user fees attached to them. I know that sports teams are suffering from this. They are having to raise more and more finances on their own. I apprecia te the mini ster has said there are some programs for scholarships, but they do not address the day-to-day costs of transportation, of equip ment, of the costs that are incurred by the vast majority of young people participa ting in sport, particularly at the high school level.

More and more equi pment is having to be supplied individually, and this is a huge concern. I think that certain areas of Winnipeg in particular will not be able to partic ipate to the level that they want to if they are now having to cover the costs for substitute coach teachers, teacher coaches. I do not know if the minis ter wants to comment any more on that. I am quite will ing to move on to another issue considering the time. Mr.

Stefanson: I guess the only concern I have is, again, I think what I would class as the member's exaggeration where she starts to talk about problems here and athletics being unattainable and sport teams suffering and so on. I know on a comparative basis within Canada, we on a per capita fund at amongst the highest levels of the provinces in Canada for sport. Certainly in terms of my involvement with sport and my travels, I get very few criticisms about our funding level for sport either from people directly involved in sporting organizations or just the public in general.

I think there is a recognition that we certainly are very supportive of sport. We fund it to a very significa nt level. Having said that, are there some areas that need to be addressed, areas that should be improved and so on? Absolutely. I think that is true of most areas of government and elsewhere.

So certainly there are things we should be continuing to do, areas we should be continuing to improve in terms of delivery of sport, in terms of access to sport and so on, because I think the member and I, over the course of the next two hours or three hours or however long we go, or three days, will probably agree to disagree on a lot of issues but we probably can both agree on the merits of sport. With that, Mr.

Chairman, I do not think we need to feel that there are major problems, ma jor shortages, that our funding is certainly very signi ficant, but there are certainly some challenges for sport in the years ahead. Ms. Cerilli: I guess I wanted to just follow up by asking the min ister to collect some more data and information for me, because I really believe that the cuts that this government has levied to Education are really affecting high school sport, and right now that is what we are talking about. We are talking about sport in education at the high school and junior high level.

I open it up to junior high as well. I would think that there are fewer teachers now who are willi ng and able to coach high school teams, because teachers are being stretched to the limit. I would think that if the minister would do some research on that he would find that is the case, that there is a trend that a number of teachers are saying, no, I cannot take on yet another duty associated with the school.

I think this government, which a few years back tried to elimi nate completely physical education at the high school level as a required credit, has done damage to the morale of a number of the physical education and other teachers who coach and partici pate in athletics. I think that even though Manitoba government as a whole may invest in sport to a very comparable level in Canada, what is happening at the high school level, that is not the case.

When we were looking into this whole issue of the fees being charged to teams for substitute teachers, we were looking at the number of programs other than the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association that directly go to support high school athletics from the provincial government, and there are very few. I know one of the programs that used to exist through the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Associa tion has been eliminated, and that is the drug awareness program. There is not a lot of support there for coaches in particular who are teachers, and they are really feeling the pinch.

They are having to pay for more and more costs in terms of transportation and all sorts of other additional fees, and now this potentially could be the thin edge of the wedge in the door in a new practice of charging for substitute teachers. *

(1520) 40 14 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 97 The mini ster said I may be exaggerating the issue, but we want to catch these kinds of things at the beginning of the problem and not at the end when it has become a real detriment to the development of sport at that developing high school level and school level.

Those are the concerns that I am bringing to the table today, and I hope that the minis ter shares my concern in this, that there is a problem at the high school level in terms of the availabil ity of coaches and volunteers, officials and funding, and that there has been an increased pressure for more fundraising to be done. Things that I would suggest in my day were more likely to be provided by a school division are no longer provided, and student athletes are having to pay more and more costs. This is reducing the number that can participa te.

It is reducing the number that are then able to develop and become more involved at the hig her levels of sport. I would think that is a big concern for Sport Manitoba, and it should be a big concern of the Minis ter for Sport. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure I can accept at face value a lot of the comments that the member makes about her perception of the problems at the high school level. I think there has been in some areas an expansion of sports in high school in particular. Although it is getting to be a few years now, I guess I think most particularly of hockey.

But there has been some expansion of sports at the high school level, which has created a greater demand for coaches across the board, which has led I think to the use of some parents, some other people to help with coaching outside of teachers dir ectly, which I do not think is necessarily a bad thing in terms of includin g either parents or other people from the community to assist with coaching hockey teams or whatever school team it might be.

In fact, on an overall basis, I think as the schools are becoming more and more active in more varied sports, that is a positive thing, that they are a natural vehicle for sport activities, for utiliza tion of their facil ities and so on. I am not aware that there is a problem with a shortage of coaches within our high school system, that coaches are still coming forward. I still belie ve that the vast majority of teachers who also want to be coaches will find the time to do that because it is important to them in terms of the service they provide to the students and in terms of what they see their role being.

I have all the confidence in the world that our educational system with our teachers will continue to provide the coaches that are needed for volleyball teams, basketball teams, whatever it might be, but I think there always is a challenge to find coaches. I think some of the approaches that the schools are using to include other people from the communities are a healthy thing as well. So, Mr.

Chair man, I am not aware that it is a major problem, but I think I do agree with the member that high school athletics are extremely important, and we have to be sure that we always do have appropriate numbers of coaches and coaches with the proper training and so on. Ms. Cerilli: Well, I must say that this minis ter is one of the best at putting his spin on an issue. Now, I asked questions about the reduction in the number of teachers willing and able to coach and you said that those who were willi ng, you think, are doing a great job. I do not disagree.

I think they are doing a great job, and I know they are doing a great job under horrendous cir cumstances. But I have talked to numbers of teachers and coaches who-especially as this government was cutting professi onal development days as you were reducing salaries and, at the same time, asking teachers to teach more classes, you were forcing school divisions to make cuts to teachers' salaries.

I know in River East School Division all the teachers agreed that they were going to withdraw from extracurricular activities, period, in protest of this government and the school division being forced to take action, as I have just described, in terms of negotiations with teachers. So I am wanting to see if the minis ter is interested in looking at this area, because I think I am correct. I am certain that there are now teachers who no longer either coach as many teams or are willing to coach at all because of the pressures put on them inside the classroom and in other school duties.

They feel like they are being squeezed, Mr. Mini ster, and I think that this is affecting sport. I know it is affecting sport. So I am wanting to see if you would agree to do a study or - -

May 27, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 40 15 if you know if this is being done through any other agency in the province to look at the number of teachers who are doing extracurricular activities. This is a big issue among teachers, and I know that two of my colleagues have looked at this issue in their own school division, and teachers are lis ting the amount of time that they spend on extracurricu lar activities lik e coaching, as well as the amount of money they have to spend out of their own pocket related to school activities.

So I am asking if you are interested in this area, if you are willing to take a look at these trends in the area ofthe number of teachers coaching and participating in athletics programs in the different schools and if there is a reduction in the number of hours, the number of teachers, the number of sports that they are being able to coach in. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, once again, the member made some comments that I do not think were entirely accurate, although she sort of started correcting some of them as she concluded her remarks I think when she suggested that we were reducing teachers' salaries.

I think she knows full well that teachers' salaries are not negotiated on a province-wide basis. They are done individually with individ ual school divisio ns and any compensation decisio ns for teachers are decisio ns made by the individ ual school boards in all ofthe school divisions across Manitoba.

Without taking away from the importance of discussing high school athletics, coaching availabil ity, proper training for coaches, again, this is not a concern that has been brought to our attention by an organization lik e the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association which is the overall governing body for high school athletics.

I am sure coaches at the high school level, lik e people in all walks of life, lik e coaches in other areas, I think-it is sort of a trend of society, in many ways, that because of a lot of the restructuring that has taken place in the last many years in Canada and elsewhere, we all take on an awful lot more activities, and I think a lot of our teachers have done that and they are doing it very well.

I am a firm believer that people who are in the education system and are teachers and are interested in coaching and want to coach do it and find the time to do it, just as people in other professions and other jobs find the time to do the things that they believe are important. So I think we are fortunate to be well served by the teachers and people in the education system who come forward and take on the coaching of all of these teams.

Having said all of that, I am certainly prepared to have a di alogue with the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association and basically with the educational community in general in terms of, is the Manitoba coaching association helping to meet their needs in terms of coaching techniques, coaching seminars and so on and to determine how well they are all functioning in terms of the challenges and responsibili ties that they have. *

(1530) I am certainly now prepared to pursue that, because I think the end objective is the same, that we wanted to be sure we have coaches in our educational system. We want to be sure they have the appropriate training, if necessary, in terms of coaching particular programs and so on. I am certainly prepared to have those di scussions and to look into the issue, but I do not in any way acknowledge that there is a major problem out there. Ms. CeriUi: I think that we will find out that there is a problem, but I want to go back and talk more about the Pan Am Games now because time is moving on. Mr.

Stefanson: I just want to correct some information that was provided yesterday when asked a question about the numbers of sports for the Pan Am Games in 19 99 in Winnipeg in Manitoba, I believe I informed the member that there were 42 sports. There are, in fact, 41 sports. She also asked the question about the numbers of sports at the Commonwealth Games in Victoria, and I believe I informed her that there were 22. There were, in fact, 11. Ms.

Cerilli: I was hoping that the minis ter would also let me know that he now has some other information for me in terms of some documents I was asking questions about yesterday, because I was surprised and

40 16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 97 concerned that today in the Free Press it seems lik e Scott Taylor has more infonnation than the minis ter does about the television contract for the Pan Am Games. If the minis ter has not yet seen it, there was an

article close to the front

section of the paper by Tim Campbell, but in the Sports

section there was a more detailed

article by Scott Taylor which went into some of the financial details of the contract for the television rights to the games. I am wondering if the minis ter has had a chance to follow up on the questions that I asked yesterday, and if he can now provide me with more detailed infonnation about the financial aspects of that contract. Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Chainnan, I am told in di scussions as early as this morning with the Pan Am Games Society that from the perspective of the Pan Am Games and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CBC, and the sport network, TSN, there are some concerns about releasing details relative to the contract. I belie ve their concerns relate most directly to the fact that they are the host broadcasters, and they have some additional negotiations to pursue with other networks and so on.

In tenns of any issue where you have various parties, a part of an agreement, at this particular point in time, there are concerns about making all of the details and financial details public because they have to conclude all of their negotiations in tenns of putting together what they would consider the best package. I know her specific question about advertising rights and advertising inventory, that that will, in fact, belong to the Pan Am Games Socie ty, but again they do not have a figure that can be provided today in tenns of what that mi ght generate in tenns of revenue for the games.

But they have retained that inventory or those rights in tenns of the advertising during the Pan Am Games, they being the Pan Am Games Society. Ms. Cerilli: There are a number of questions to be answered here, but first of all it seems that there are some really unusual things going on with this television contract, particularly in tenns of the agreement with CBC where it seems that they have made this trade.

I am wanting for the minis ter to confinn that in exchange for CBC covering the games that actually the Pan Am Socie ty is covering the costs of reconstruction and renovation on the CBC building in downtown Winnipeg on Portage A venue. I was actually just at the CBC building this morning and was told that construction on that renovation was starting this summer, and they are consolidating all their operations into the one building. I am wondering if that is what the Pan Am Games Society is paying for? Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr.

Chainnan, I know the member for Radisson is not going to like this answer, but I think I have to give it to her anyway. That falls within the total area of the tenns of the agreement that was reached with CBC and TSN, and at this particular point in time that infonnation is not available to be made public. Ms. Cerilli: Well, Mr. Minis ter, it is public, it is in the Free Press. What I am asking for you to do is confinn it. I mean, are you saying that Scott Taylor is just speculating and his story is full of ifs? If this agreement goes through, then the CBC is going to get a new building.

What kind of purpose do these Estimates serve if we cannot get any infonnation? Mr. Stefanson: This is an agreement that was entered into and announced yesterday, as the member knows. In tenns of the accuracy or inaccuracy of Scott Taylor, I am not about to confinn that. Mr. Taylor has been accurate sometimes and he has been inacc urate other times, but in tenns of all aspects of the final arrangement between CBC and TSN, Mr. Chainnan, I am not in a position to provide that at this particular point in time. * (1 540) Ms.

Cerilli: One of the concerns that I have about this is the amount of money that is going towards the broadcast centre for CBC. I am wondering if the minis ter has infonnation about the amount of money from the federal government that is going towards that and if some of that money is Manitoba government money that is going to the broadcast centre? I understand that the Pan Am Games Society has developed their budget and that they will be funding the broadcast centre from that budget, but I think it is a - -

May 27, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 40 17 concern if the federal government is in a way getting out of funding the CBC, yet again, for renovations on their site and that that money is now coming from the Pan Am Games. The CBC, as I understand it, is going through a reorganization consolidation of their operations on Portage A venue, and they are doing that to save money.

They are doing that to deal with the cutbacks that CBC has suffered under the Li beral government, but I am wondering if what is also happening now is that they are saving more money by having the Pan Am Games pay for the refurbishment of their operations on Portage A venue and that this is another way that the federal government is saving money at the expense of the Pan Am Games. (Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr.

Stefanson: That is actually a pretty good question from the member for Radisson, and I am glad to hear her concerns about the federal Liberal government and some of their decisions relative to the CBC and facili ties in Winnipeg. But I think what is important from the Pan Am Games perspective is the Pan Am Games have a significa nt budget allocation for host broadcasting which the member is familiar with and aware of.

What I am told is through this arrangement with CBC and TSN, they have been able to reduce what was their original budgeted amount for broadcasting downwards as a result of this arrangement that was entered into and announced yesterday.

I guess if that ends up being a part of an ultimate redevelopment of CBC in Winnipeg, some component of it, of the redevelopment in Winnipeg, I am not so sure that is a bad thing recognizing that with much of what we are doing with facil ity enhancement of the Pan Am Pool or the gymnasium out at the University of Manitoba, obviously it benefits all governments but most importantly benefits the public and those facili ties for many years after the games.

But on an overall basis in terms of the impact on the Pan Am Games budget, this agreement, I am told, has reduced some of their costs in that area and, if and when I am in a position to release further details on the final agreement with CBC and TSN, I will certainly undertake to provide those to the member for Radisson. Ms. Cerilli: Who does the Pan Am Games Society deal with at CBC in these negotiations? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am informed that the majority of the discussions and negotia tions took place with the two individuals who were in Winnipeg yesterday, Mr.

Alan Clark, I belie ve, the Di rector of Sport for CBC, head of CBC TV Sports, and Mr. Jim Thompson, who is the president of TSN, The Sports Network. Those were the two principal contacts in terms of negotiations. Having said that, I am sure there might well have been other people involved in the process, but those apparently were the two key contacts for those two organizations. Ms. Cerilli: Where is Alan Clark based out of? Mr. Stef anson : Mr. Chairman, I believe both gentlemen, Mr. Clark and Mr. Thompson, are based out of Toronto. Ms.

Cerilli: This is an unusual situation, though, where rather than purchasing from CBC the time, on-air time, they have this arrangement where they are going to pay for this construction of the facili ty on Portage A venue. I am wondering what costs more. I mean, the building here is-I do not know if l want to go according to this Free Press

article or not, but they are saying the broadcast centre will be about $20 million. No, that is wrong; that is what it was in Victoria Ours is going to be cheaper than that, but it does not say how much. The question I am wanting to ask, irrespective of the dollar figures here, is how this arrangement ends up being in terms of the bottom line, what the cost of the new building is and how that compares to the usual cost to actually just buy the on-air time with money, as it usually occurs. Mr.

Stefanson: I guess the member suggests the norm being to pay money and basically buy the rights, depending on the scope of the games and the viewing audience. Of course, we know when you get into an Olympic situation that networks actually pay the host societies for the right to televise various events. That, I guess, for any sporting event is the ultimate, if you can

40 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 97 get the networks to be paying you money for the rights to televise. In this particular case, I think the best thing to be done would be to hopefully be in a position to provide more specific terms once some of the concerns in terms of third-party confidentiality are addressed. But each situation is different.

In terms of the Pan Am Games, as I have already indicated, on the positive side in terms of their revenue, they have retained the advertising rights, the advertising inventory, which will generate revenue for the Pan Am Games, and any other specific details around the financial terms with CBC and TSN, I cannot provide at this time. * (15 50) Ms. Cerilli: This is very unusual and there was a lot of fanfare yesterday. Like I said, I was at the press conference, and the more we get into this, the more it is sort of coming back down to being very much the very beginning stages even.

This is only dealing with Canada and the Caribbean and South America. There is no network coverage yet for the United States which is a big part of the action here. I know that when I raised this issue last year in Estimates, we were having this same discussion about television contract and having an American network, and now we have the unusual situation of Canada, then, giving away the rights, or the Pan Am Games Society, in a sense, giving away the rights, and they actually having to pay CBC through the construction of the building. What is the agreement with TSN?

I will split these questions up because I want to deal with the other issue as well; so, first of all, to tell me what is the agreement with TSN in terms of exchange, and what is the situation in terms of having a U.S. network or programming for the U.S.? Mr. Stefanson: As we have already discussed, I think each of these arrangements whenever there are ma jor sporting events are different in some ways, and I am sure this is no exception. As we have already discussed, as well, the Pan Am Games will be retaining the advertising rights and the revenue that goes with those advertising rights.

In terms of the arrangement with TSN, obviously it falls under the same framework as the CBC agreement, and at this particular point in time no further details can be provided. In terms of the U.S. network, negotiatiOns are ongoing. I am told that the Pan Am Games Society wanted to specifically obtain the Canadian broadcasting companies, CBC, TSN, to get that arrangement in place, and they do continue to pursue various possibi lities with distribution into the United States, because the member is certainly correct that that is a large viewing audience. Ms.

Cerilli: Well, I know the last time we had these discussions, there was a possibility that there was going to be a contract in the United States signed with FOX, and that did not happen, so who else is on the horizon? I mean, what is the status of any other network? Mr. Stefanson: The member is certainly correct that going back roughly a year ago, there were some serious negotiations with FOX. Unfortunately, those did not lead to a successful agreement.

Subsequent to that the Pan Am Games Host Socie ty felt it was important to nail down the Canadian broadcasting rights and to at least get the mechanisms in place to start to move forward aggressively with some of the corporate sponsorships that we touched on yesterday and, as a result, the abil ity yesterday to announce IBM, Great West Life, Investors, and Wawanesa. Now that they have done that, I am told they have been in discussion with a few of the major networks down in the United States and that those negotiations will be ongoing.

In terms of who they are currently in negotiations with, I would have to confirm they certainly have been in negotiations with organizations like NBC, FOX, certainly, on an ongoing basis, ESPN, to name at least three organizations that there have been various forms of negotiations with. Ms.

Cerilli: Well, I am just trying to do some calculations here and, given some of the discussions we were having yesterday too, where it looks like there is going to be an additional up to $40 million added on in terms of expenses and how now that you have secured the Canada broadcast, and that is estimated to then lead to $3 5 million to $40 million in revenue I guess from -

May 27, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 40 19 advertising with that programming, and there is about $8 milli on to $10 million for the Winnipeg corporations that have signed on, I am just trying to add this up and see that you have now got about $50 mil lion, but you are going to need probably at least another $60 million in revenue from advertising. * (1 600) I appreciate that part of this agreement, all the advertising revenue from the broadcast in Canada, is going to come back to the Pan Am Games Society; it is not going to be going to these televisions networks, but that may not be the case for an American deal.

So we are going to still be relying fairly heavily on an American agreement for the television rights in the United States. Is that correct? I am wondering, though, if the games is considering not having them broadcast in the United States. I know that some of the comments are saying this has to be a world-class event or we are not going to do it at all. So it sti ll seems like there has to be another major way of levering more revenue from advertising. I am wondering if the min ister can confirm that. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I do not think I can necessarily accept the numbers that the member has put out.

As we discussed yesterday, the budget approved by the Pan Am Games Socie ty is the one we have in front of us. As we also discussed, we do know that they are going through a review of their budget right now. We need their expenditures for the reasons we discussed yesterday, and so on. In fact, I am told that with the Canada Games that we are hosting in Brandon this August, that budget ended up being revised five times.

I hope that is not necessarily the case with the Pan Am Games, but I think it shows the nature of major sporting events, that as you get closer you do start to either firm up the kinds of things we are discussing today or you do not, and certainly some access to the American population is important for the games. As we have already discussed, the Games Socie ty is pursuing that, particularly now that they have an arrangement made with CBC and TSN in Canada.

What that ultimately means financially, I think again, we have to wait and see how successful they are in terms of concluding any agreement, with whom, and ultimately what it will mean to their budget. Ms. Cerilli: The question I am asking you is, do they have to have a television contract for viewing in the United States or is it possible that they would not have that and be able to go ahead with the games, because I think in the past they have not been televised in the United States? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Chairman, if the member is asking, is providing television into the United States a condition of hosting the Pan American Games, the answer is, no, they are not. So she is right that from hosting the games to televising into the U.S. is not essential. It might well be important for other reasons, but in terms of it being a requirement to host the games, it is not. Ms. Cerilli: Then there would have to be some major revisions in the budget. Is that correct? If there is not going to be the revenue from a contract for televising the games in the United States, how would that affect the games?

How would that affect the budget? Is there some kind of revision being antici pated for that or are you planning for that at all? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I think what is important to note is unlike the Olympics where a broadcasting network will come in and pay a significant sum of money for the broadcasting rights, as we have already discussed to a limited extent, there is not a great deal of money to be made in terms of selling the rights whether it is to CBC or TSN or to any network in the U.S. But where there is a direct correlation is in terms of the private sector support.

By having ma jor Canadian television rights, which were announced yesterday, that broadens the scope to attract Canadian national firms. Obviously, televising into the United States broadens that scope in terms of attracting support from international firms in terms of private sector contributions. So there is more of an impact on the revenue side of the budget from what these television opportunities can mean to solici ting private sector support. They are each important, and I think for the next period of time we need to wait and see how the Pan Am Games Socie ty makes out in terms of

4020 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 97 television into the United States and, ultimately, whether or not they have to revise their budget as a result of whatever happens in that area. Ms. Cerilli: When is the deadline for deciding if they are going to go with Canada only in the Caribbean and South America as the televised agreements currently hold or when are you going to decide if you are going to give up on trying to get an American network to cover the games? Mr.

Stefanson: I am not aware of a drop-dead date in terms of this issue of go, no go on pursuing television rights in the U.S., but I think it is fair to say, in terms of the certainty of any budget, as the games are now just over two years away, that the next few months are important, and I would anticipate by the end of the year it is very important to have basically as firm a budget as is possible. So from a budgeting perspective, from a certainty of everything that you are providing, I think roughly by the end of the year is a very important date.

That still would not necessarily mean that if the games were not successful by that date in terms of television rights that they could not continue to pursue it. I have not been provided that kind of a drop dead date, but I think in terms of a $12 2 mill ion budget, all of the aspects that go with hosting the games, certainly the next few months are very important in terms of firming up the budget. Ms.

Cerilli: Well, the issue, though, now is that there are potentially a number of different scenarios that could occur, and I am wondering if the Pan Am Games Society has done budgets for those different scenarios with the television network in the United States, without one, with some of the different compilations of the number of athletes, the duration of stay. The minister is going by this one budget for approximately $12 2 million, but we are looking at potentially a number of different scenarios, and I am wondering if the finance committee is antici pating that. Mr.

Stefanson: The Pan Am Games Society and their finance committee have certainly run various scenarios, various sensi tivity analysis in terms of many of these variables that we have touched on over the last two days. So, absolutely, the Games Socie ty are doing those kinds of things. Now it is up to the finance committee and the Games Society to determine the status of their budget. * (1610 ) Ms.

Cerilli: One of the other issues that is raised by the Free Press coverage is a very different level of budget and, again, I am not sure where Scott Taylor gets his inf ormation from, but he thinks that the games budget is $13 8 million. I am wondering if Scott Taylor knows something that the minis ter does not.

I know that the minister keeps saying that the budget they are working from is $12 2 million, and I am looking at the numbers that are quoted in Scott Taylor's column of the government's amount of money and-I am just going to compare these two because-he has the federal government-well, this is a little bit less, and again there was that $7 millio n of in-kind federal government revenue.

He has the provincial government pretty much on and city pretty much on, so I guess he is anticipating that the difference between $12 2 million and $138 mill ion is going to come from the private sector in revenue from advertising and tickets. But what I am wondering is if the Pan Am Games Socie ty has approached the provincial government or the federal government for an increase in the grant that they would receive, given the number of scenarios we have talked about and the possibility of having increased athletes and increased expenses. Mr.

Stefanson: I was just trying to see if anybody could piece together Scott Taylor's budget, but I do not think anybody can. The last approved budget is the one that we are working off here at this committee, the $1 22,064,000 is the approved budget of the Pan Am Games Society. They are looking at a whole range of issues that we have touched on over these last couple of days in terms of some of their expenditure pressures. They now are firming up some of the revenue numbers as a result of yesterday's announcement and where they might be heading with television opportunities into the u.s.

At this particular point in time, that budget review process is being undertaken by the Pan Am Games - -

May 27, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 402 1 Society. As we touched on yesterday, their finance committee has to go through that process. Ultimately if there are going to be any changes to their budget, it has to go through their executive and through their committee. So that is the process that this is in right now, and we should wait for the results of that. Ms. Cerilli: My question was have they asked for an increase from any level of government? Mr. Stefanson : Mr. Chairman, they have identified some of the issues that we have talked about here.

Right now they are going through the process of firming up their expenditures, seeing where they can control their costs and so on. They have pointed out that if there is still a shortfall, they will be turning to governments for additional support. I think we have to let them go through that process. But they have made it clear that by the time they firm up their expenditures, by the time they give their best estimate of their broadcasting revenues, their advertising revenues, their private sector revenues, the only other funding sources have been government.

If there still is a shortfall, they will then be returning to government to have discussions on how to deal with that. They have certainly made us aware of that, that that is a possibility, and they are now going through their process of firming up their budget. Depending on what that produces, I am sure we will be having further discussions with them. Ms. Cerilli: What is the government's position on having more revenue go to the Pan Am Games Society? Would you be open to having an increase in their grant? Mr.

Stefanson : I think it is a little premature, and we certainly encourage them initially to focus on both their expenditure control and generating additional revenue from other opportunities. We view that there is a significa nt contribution from the taxpayers in the process now, some $64 million approximately. In fact, if you factored in the federal government in kind, which I am not necessarily incl ined to do, it takes the number to $71 mill ion, but there is at least a $64 milli on contribution from governments, roughly 50 percent of this budget.

So there is a significa nt contribution, and they are certainly being encouraged to look at those avenues first. I guess I also would bring a view of what lim ited comparisons I have done of some other games, that in a relative sense the federal government has made a more significant contribution to other games elsewhere in Canada. I think a good case and good point could be made with the federal government in terms of what role they play with these games. But without getting too far ahead of ourselves, I think the most immediate is for the Games Socie ty themselves to firm up their budget at this stage. Ms.

Cerilli: This may tum into another issue of trying to get the federal government to increase its donation, because this government feels lik e they are not contributing as much as perhaps they did previously, either with the Olympics or with Victoria and the Commonwealth Games. I know yesterday I asked questions about the Commonwealth Games and the amount of revenue. I had said that there was-I am trying to find it now-the amount of revenue that was available to the Commonwealth Games was quite a bit more, especially when you consider the number of sports that are involved.

Now the minister has said that there are only 11 sports at the Commonwealth Games, not 22. Does he have information about the amount of federal money that went to the Commonwealth Games in Victoria? Mr. Stefanson: I guess the first point, the point I was making, is with what lim ited comparison we have. When we look at the relative contributions from governments, the municipal government, the City of Winnipeg, is certainly comparable with what has happened with other games.

The provincial government contribution is comparable, and in a relative sense, the federal government contribution is somewhat less for the Pan Am Games. We have been attempting to obtain an absolute firm number from the Commonwealth Games in Victoria. Because of some of the reporting and some of the disc losure, we have been in contact with them to clarify just exactly how much money the federal government has put into those games. Rather than provide what might be an inaccurate number today, I will certainly undertake to provide the member with that number, but

4022 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 97 it is definitely an amount greater than what has been put into the Pan Am Games in Winnipeg. *

(1620) Ms. Cerilli: Well, like I had said the other day, I was of the understanding that they had a fraction of the sports. We have 41 sports and they had 11 , but they had three times the budget that we did, and I am not sure which proportion of that was from the federal government, and I think it is important to get those figures. It still goes back to the whole issue that there is what seems to be a big problem here with the financing.

I am wondering with the budgets that are with both the federal government and the provincial government for the in-kind contributions, that the federal government and the provincial government have budgets for those mapped out already, if those could be made available. I mean, that is all public money, so that should all definitely be made available to us here that would show in detail the in-kind donations. Then, I guess, the other money, as well, would be part of that budget, but those are just going to be simple line items from different appropriations, so that would not be as difficult, I would expect.

But I am wondering if there have also been budgets prepared for the in-kind money. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, certainly, in terms of the in-kind contribution from the provincial government, I will undertake to provide the member with a breakdown of what has been spent to date and a forecast of the areas that we will be spending, providing in-kind services as we move forward to the games.

We will undertake to provide what we can from the federal government commitment, and as I touched on yesterday, I think there have been some general concerns about the firmness of that in kind and the areas that it is being allocated to. That has been one of the reasons that it is not basically being factored into any budgets at this particular point in time, because of some of the areas that it is going to and the lack of specificity around it.

The city one, I would imagine, we do not have that, but, again, I would anticipate that the city $2 million, there should not be a problem obtaining that breakdown either. So we will certainly undertake to provide what we can, but there have been some general concerns around the $7 mill ion from the federal government. Ms. Cerilli: I want to also ask some questions about the approval process for these budgets, the federal, provincial and city, how those budgets are approved. How is the entire budget for the Pan Am Games Society approved? Who approves it?

When was it approved, and how does the provincial government play a role in that? What is the role of the provincial government in terms of the approval ofthat budget? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the budget would be prepared by the Host Society of the Pan Am Games, obviously, in consultation with the levels of government as funding partners. Ultimately, the budget was concluded and a specific request made in our case to our government for the $23 ,500,000, and we, through our process within government, approved our contribution of 23.5. I am not sure what happened in terms of the federal process.

I am imagining they go through a similar process in terms of their approval, and the City of Winnipeg, I am imagining, went to the floor of City Council. Ms. Cerilli: I have just one more question on this, and then I am going to ask if we could take a short break, and the member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) is going to ask a couple of questions. I just wanted to clarify, then, with the provincial level, when was the budget approved, and, again, what is the role of the cabinet and the provincial government in terms of approving these budgets for the Pan Am Games? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Chairman, I will have to go back in the records in terms of the exact dates, but once the budget was concluded, it would go through our process of approval, as a government, to approve our contribution through our Treasury Board and cabinet process. In terms of moving forward with the implementation of the budget, we have one individual on the overall board. We also have an individual on the co-ordinating - -

May 27, 19 97 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4023 committee. We also have an individual on the finance committee. So, we, along with the other levels of government, have links to the various entities as we move forward dealing with the budget. Ms. Cerilli: I am going to request that break now after the member for Interlake asks some questions, and maybe I will even be back by then. * (1 630) Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): I know that my honourable colleague asked yesterday about the funding or grants or anything available for the Indigenous Games that are coming up in August.

There has been brought to my attention specific requests from the communities of Fisher River and Peguis with respect to obtaining some funding through Sport Manitoba or any other department. A letter has been written to the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman), and I have been asked again to request some sort of support and/or ideas as to where there are funds available through the department or how these two communities can access some funds. The last few times they have gone out, they have had to basically fundraise themselves.

They are at a shortfall, and indication to me is that the last time they went-and I forget where it was; I believe it was in the States-everybody else pretty well was full regalia. Equipment, everything was provided, or some of the equipment and such, and funding was provided by the different provinces and jurisdictions. I am wondering how we can support these two communities and any other communities that are looking for funding to attend these games and participate in them. Mr.

Stefanson: I think the member for Interlake and I have discussed this on at least a previous occasion, and the policy to date, as he knows, has been to fund provincial teams that attend major events like the Canada Games, the Western Canada Games or other international games. We get all kinds of requests from individual teams or community teams that might be travelling out of province and want some financial support. Now, having said that, we do recognize that there are some differences relative to this issue of our aboriginal community participating in the Indigenous Games. A meeting took place yesterday.

Another one is taking place next week with individuals from Justice, Community Support Programs, Sport Manitoba, Northern Affairs and so on to assess the situation and determine specifically what is being requested and whether or not some provincial government support should be provided. So we certainly are looking at the issue right now in terms of whether or not to provide support for the 19 97 Indigenous Games in British Columbia. Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for that. The minister indicated there will be another meeting next week.

Can he provide a timetable as to when we can come to some conclusion, how soon, and come up with the numbers available? Mr. Stefanson : Mr. Chairman, well, time is certainly a factor, as the member is alluding to because, as he knows, the games are in British Columbia from August 3 to 10. So subsequent to next week's meeting we will have to make decisions quite quickly as to, as I say, whether or not we can provide some support and, if so, at what level and under what terms and conditions. So time is a factor. We recognize that, and we will deal with the issue expeditiously. Mr.

Clif Evans: I do not know if that is really fast enough for me or for the communities, but I can say to the minister that if he-[ interjection] Well, I am going to put that on the record. The minister is indicating that it is about as fast as I skate. Well, perhaps at this age of 49 not that fast but, in my day, quite fast. So I would sort of hope that the minister would look at that and say, well, let us get this money going as quickly as possible as the honourable member used to be able to skate. But I do have just a comment on that. I will take this to the communities.

Saturday I am attending, and it would be nice if the minister could in the interdepartmental mail just pass on a cheque made out to the Fisher River Indigenous Games Committee, I will take it to the fundraiser dinner on Saturday. I would be honoured to present them with that cheque along with my donation to their efforts.

4024 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, I9 97 But, having said that, on a more serious side now, I do hope, I certainly hope that these meetings do come up positive for these communities and for all of Manitoba youth, aboriginal youth. Perhaps something can be put in place, a provincial body can be put in place that can deal with these types of things and include them with all the other provincial sport bodies that we have so that they can have available sources just like everybody else. Mr.

Stefanson: Well, the member also raises a key point, and I think he is aware that there are individuals working on the development of an aboriginal sport council, and we are working with them through Sport Manitoba. We are supportive of the establishment of an aboriginal sport council, recognizing that we still believe that participation should be within the framework of all of the sport governing bodies but that there is a role for an aboriginal sport council, but that still participation in hockey or soccer or whatever is still within the framework of the overall governing body.

I think that is moving forward in a positive sense also. We certainly are going to take a good look at this whole issue of participation in the Indigenous Games and whether or not we should be providing support and, if so, at what level. So I do want to assure the member that we are taking a very serious look at the entire issue. Mr.

Clif Evans: I thank the minister for those answers, and I will be taking those answers to the community on Saturday, both communities, and try and work along with them to get involved with the whole picture as against individually funding and having to fundraise themselves for their athletes. I mean, there are well over I 00 athletes between the two communities of Peguis and Fisher River that will be attending. I know the minister can appreciate that it is certainly within their budget limits and scope of things to be able to get the proper funding. Sufficient funding is a ma jor task.

We do not want to see these young athletes not being able to participate. I can tell the minister that the quality of the young people out there in the sport field is exceptional. So we do not want to see them be short changed or not be able to go and support their communities, not only the aboriginal communities but sport on the whole. (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Chairman, I am not surprised that there are, as the member says, close to I 00 participants from Fisher River and Peguis, because I see on an overall basis Team Manitoba is comprised of 625 aboriginal young people, coaches, team managers and chaperons who will be participating. So it is certainly a very significant level of participation. Ms. Cerilli: I want to go back to the questions I was asking about the budget for the Pan Am Games.

We had been talking about the procedure for approving the budgets and that, and I am wondering if the Pan Am Games Society has to make a request to the government to have its approval to increase the budget if it is not going to affect the revenue and grants from the government; so if the Pan Am Games Society wants to increase the budget beyond the $I2 2 mill ion, and they are prepared to have that increase be covered through the private sector and through advertising and merchandise, etcetera, if they have to get approval for that from the provincial government and other levels of government that are funding the games.

Mr. Stefanson : The way I understand the member's question is if the expenditures go up on the budget but it is offset by other sources of revenue other than government support, does the Pan Am Games have to come back to government for official ratification of their budget. I am told, no, they do not. Having said that, I am sure they would, as a courtesy, provide us w

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-51
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 51.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d623f147daddd8af58089746e7f22a03f8240a89

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