Manitoba Hansard — 25 May 2012 (Sitting 39C, 40th Legislature, 1st Session)

40-1-39c

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXIV No. 39C - 10 a.m., Friday, May 25, 2012 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli NDP BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne St.

James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns NDP MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte PC MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel NDP MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River NDP PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale NDP SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto NDP TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris PC WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC

1721 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, May 25, 2012 The House met at 10 a.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ENTREPRENEURSHIP, TRAINING AND TRADE Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Order. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. Before we begin, I would like to remind members to ensure their electronic devices are in silent mode and to also speak more closely into the microphones. Now, this

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Peter Bjornson (Minister of Entrepreneur - ship, Training and Trade): Yes, I do, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be here today to speak on behalf of the Department of Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade.

The department's efforts have been focused on providing the best possible programming and services to ensure a s killed and educated workforce, and to support Manitoba's businesses, trade development and international relationships. Our economy continues to show resiliency during these challenging times, growing 2.1 per cent in 2011, and from 2005 to 2010, our economy averaged 2.4 per cent growth per year, the highest among provinces, and stable economic growth is projected to continue over the next two years. Manitoba remains one of the strongest labour markets in Canada.

In 2011, Manitoba maintained the second lowest unemployment rate among provinces for the third consecutive year, well below the national average of 7.4 per cent. Mr. Chair, o ur population continues to grow with strong international contribution. An estimated 1,254,658 persons as of October 1st, 2011 were calling Manitoba home, and international immigration accounting for a record 15,954 persons in 2011.

Now, to build a strong, productive and well - educated workforce, my department's working with a multitude of partners and stakeholders to ensure that Manitobans have the skills they need to take advantage of the employment opportunities that are available now and in the future. Employment and Income Assistance, or EIA, has been integrated with the department's labour market training programs to help Manitobans most in need to move from income assistance into sustainable employment while responding to employer demands for a skilled and productive workforce.

And my department will support and–the development of an expanded pool of work-ready EIA participants through greater access to training and work experience opportunities to prepare for success in high-demand occupations. My department is developing high quality integrated services for clients, and to support these efforts as well as to encoura ge further development of downtown Winnipeg, we're developing a storefront site at 111 Lombard that will integrate apprenticeship, employment and workforce development services.

And in 2011- 12, Employment Manitoba supported nearly 35,000 individuals to a ccess training and employment supports through its network of 16 regional employment centres and through partnerships with local community -based organizations.

Employment Manitoba is working with stakeholders to better address the specific needs of client groups, including Aboriginals and new immigrants, and in 2011- 12, Employment Manitoba delivered services to almost 3,500 immigrant clients and provided approximately $4.7 million in direct financial support to clients as well as services delivered through specialized immigrant employment assistance programs located in Winnipeg, Brandon, Steinbach and Winkler.

In the last 10 years, the number of apprentices in Manitoba has more than doubled, and to meet projected employer needs for skilled workers, Apprenticeship Manitoba is implementing a

1722 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 five-point initiative to increase the number of certified journeypersons. As part of this initiative, my department has committed $1.7 million to support the Rural and Northern Apprenticeship Training Strategy, which wi ll improve access to apprenticeship training through mobile training labs, the E-Apprenticeship initiative, and the Skills Build Program.

Technical training delivery in the northern and rural regions of the province, through either the mobile lab –training labs or online via E-Apprenticeship, enables apprentices to remain in their communities to study and work. The delivery of accredited training through the E-Apprenticeship program is anticipated to be a key component of the Skills Build Program for youth, and this program will allow for additional accredited vocational programming in schools for youth living in rural and northern regions.

A northern apprenticeship co- op training model is under development in response to the Northern Manitoba Sector Council to pilot an alternate model of apprenticeship training for northern residents. And to enhance the support for hiring apprentices and journeypersons, a number of tax credits are now available, and online services such as AccessManitoba are increasing apprenticeship application and training registration processes for both individual and employers.

So, through partnerships between government, provincial sector councils, industry, education, and labour, more than 22,600 employed individuals have participated in training in 2011-12. My department continues to provide pre - employment and essential skills trainin g for apprentices and northerners through the Northern Essential Skills Training Initiative and Workplace Education Manitoba, and together these initiatives have provided assessment and training for 6,175 clients and 158 practitioners.

More than 168 smal l and medium -sized companies received assistance from human resource–or with human resource planning and workforce training and development from Workforce Development Program, resulting in the training of 2,690 existing workers. The Industry Expansion Pro gram supported training of 602 individuals for four companies that expanded their operations in the province, and the program is also contributing to an engineer in residence at the University of Manitoba to prepare 180 students with the skills needed for entry into the aerospace industry.

The mining industry in Manitoba is projecting substantial increases in employment opportunities over the next five years. So, equipped with laboratories, classrooms, and state -of-the-art mining training simulator, the ne w Northern Manitoba Mining Academy will provide local access to training for northern residents to prepare them for opportunities in the mining sector.

Through the Advisory Council on Workforce Development, Manitoba's contributed to an international repor t on skills development and training for small and medium -sized enterprises, and in addition, they are working with the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics to survey over 600 companies to gain the relevant Manitoba labour market information. Our successful Prov incial Nominee Program for Business continues to attract entrepreneurs from all around the world.

In 2011-12, there were 77 business investments in Manitoba with a total initial investment of $22 million, pushing our total business investments to 481, with $182 million invested since the program started. As of March 31st, 2012, 172 business immigrants landed with their families in 2011-12. * (10:10) Small businesses represent 97 per cent of all businesses in the province, and they're a key driver of our e conomy. In total, there are over 85,000 self - employed entrepreneurs doing business throughout Manitoba, accounting for the creation of approximately one-third of all new jobs in Manitoba.

To support the small business in Manitoba, we have eliminated both t he small business income tax and the general Corporation Capital Tax, making Manitoba an attractive location for small businesses to set up, expand, create jobs, and to help grow our economy. The Business Start program offers loan guarantees to assist entrepreneurs in establishing new businesses and creating jobs, and since its inception the Business Start program has supported the start-up of over 1,100 businesses, creating approximately 2,900 initial jobs and an estimated total investment of $21 million.

Additional support for new business owners is provided by the delivery of a three -day

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1723 entrepreneurship training workshop to approximately 700 participants per year throughout the province, and, to date, over 11,000 participate –participants have attended these workshops. The Canada -Manitoba Business Service Centre is in its 15th year of operations, and that provides a range of services and supports to all Manitobans via 32 regional offices located across the province.

The centre has a small business learni ng initiative, which includes a video -conferencing network with over 50 external access points throughout the province to deliver approximately 180 seminars per year to about 5,000 participants. The aerospace and advanced manufacturing sectors contribute significantly to the province, and three of the world's largest aero -engine manufacturers have now established test facilities in Manitoba.

The global aerospace centre for icing, research, or GLACIER, was constructed in Thompson by Rolls -Royce, UK, and Pra tt Whitney, USA, two years ago, and, this year, General Electric Aviation opened its Engine Testing, Research and Development Centre in Winnipeg. The department is building upon very positive international visibility provided by these world-class test centres to actively promote cold- weather testing in Churchill and Thompson.

In addition, repayable provincial financing is enabling GLACIER, in Thompson, to introduce new advanced testing capabilities that will signify increase –significantly increase their act ivity in Manitoba's north by expanding the engine -testing regime in Thompson. Reducing red tape continues to be a government priority, and we're focusing on efforts on the not-for- profit sector, implementing single -window approach to funding, creating mul ti-year funding agreements and looking at ways to pool resources. The single - window not -for-profit organization portal has been active since mid-April 2012.

We continue to expand Manitoba Business Gateways in locations such as Dauphin, Brandon, St. Boniface, St. Pierre Jolys, Notre Dame de Lourdes, St. Vital, and planning is currently under way to establish additional Business Gateways in Ste. Anne and other locations in the province. With my time running short, I'll highlight a couple of other things. The BizPaL is an online service that generates a comprehensive list of permits, licences and other regulatory requirements from federal and provincial and participating local governments to expand–to allow start-up or business expansions.

And BizPaL is available in a total of 70 municipalities, including Winnipeg, Brandon, Dauphin, and Thompson. ANIM is part of the Canada -Manitoba partnership agreement.

We continue to support strategic projects: and ANIM, CentrePort, Agritechnica, Centrallia 2012, and the Churchill Gateway Development Corporation promote Manitoba's trade and investment nationally and internationally; and the Northern Sector Council's establishment of two underground mining simulator training centres in support of economic development in the north; and initiatives such as Vehicle Technology Centre , C omposite Innovation Centre, Alliance of Manufacturers and Exporters Centre of Excellence, and the establishment of the UWin-CREATE–Commercialization Research and Education Alliance for Science, Technology and the Environment–in support of innovation, research and development, and commercialization within various sectors.

Manitoba Trade and Investment is the official multilingual government– Mr. Chairperson: Order. The honourable member's–minister's time is over. We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments? Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye): I would like to begin by thanking the minister, and I was going to thank the staff for being here today as I didn't get an opportunity yesterday. They had left before I had a chance to thank them, but they're not here , so I'll have to try to do that a little later.

There's several areas I'd like to touch on, but one of, perhaps, the most puzzling is the departmental reorganization that saw the responsibility of Employment and Income Assistance transferred to family service–from Family Services to ETT. Could the minister explain the reason for this, and how this works? Like, it's a little bit puzzling. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. This is the part of the comments; questioning will be after that. So just the comments. An Honourable Member: Okay, sorry. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, we thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks.

1724 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is the last item considered for a department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 10.1.(

a) contained in the resolution 10.1. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr. Bjornson: Yes. I'm joined by Deputy Minister Hugh Eliasson, and for those of you who might not be Icelandic and question the pronunciation, it is indeed pronounced Hugh. We also have Craig Halwachs, who's the executive director of finance and administration, Peter Moreira, director of finance administration, and David Fisher, our assistant executive director of employment income assistance program. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you.

Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion? An Honourable Member: Global. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Everybody agreed? Mr. Smook: Global. Mr. C hairperson: So committee agree with this decision? [Agreed] Thank you. It is agreed then that questioning for the department will proceed in a global manner with all the resolutions to be passed once questioning has completed. The floor is now open for questions. Mr.

Smook: I'd like to start by thanking the staff for attending here today, because in case they take off before I get a chance to later, I will thank them now. Yes, at this point, I'd like the minister to go over, you know, the reasoning for t he move of income assistance to ETT, and if he could, explain how the system is set to work presently. Mr.

Bjornson: Employment income assistance and ETT have historically worked together in the past, and there are a lot of good examples of how that working relationship has evolved with the introduction of programs such as Rebound, and that is a program that allows people who are on assistance to attend employment training sessions and return to the workforce.

And this is something that–a good example of how the departments have worked together in the past, and essentially the intent is to continue to streamline services for individuals who are on the margins of employment who have work expectations, to provide more services and more training opportunities for those individuals so that they can find meaningful employment.

One of the luxuries that we have in this province, as I mentioned in my opening comments, is the fact that we have consistently had low unemployment rates over the last 10 years, among the lowest in the country, and we do have a shortage of skilled labour. And providing the training and streamlining the services to provide those training for individuals who are –who have work expectations, can address a couple of issues.

First of all, reduce the number of individuals that are on employment income assistance, but , secondly, address the needs of the labour market which includes a number of skilled positions and the training that will be available to support those individuals. Mr. Smook : Thank you, Mr. Minister. Can the minister provide a list of all political staff in his office? Mr. Bjornson: Is the member referring to the office in the Legislature or my constituency office as well? Mr. Smook: In the Legislature. Mr.

Bjornson: In my off ice, I have Laurie Favell - Mowat, who is the new intake co- ordinator; in my constituency assistant, Cindy Alexander; Krista Narfason is my constituency –pardon me, constituency assistant, Cindy Alexander is my special assistant. We have Lisa Rowe, Allison DePauw and Cindy Field in the front office, and Christopher Sanderson is my special advisor. * (10:20) Mr. Smook: Have–Mr. Minister, have any of them been hired since the last Estimate period? Mr. Bjornson : Actually, there would be two that were. Christopher Sanderson is my new special assistant.

I had another special assistant who moved on to another department, and Laurie Favell -Mowat is the new intake co -ordinator. That was part of the streamlining of se rvices and providing an intake co- ordinator for the delivery of services specific t o employment income assistance. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. How many were hired by competition and how many were hired by appointment?

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1725 Mr. Bjornson : In both cases there were competitions. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. What, Mr. Minister, what is the current job vacancy rate in the department? Mr. Bjornson: The vacancy rate is 7.99 per cent. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, what is the current –or provide a list of the vacant positions in this department? Mr. Bjornson : I have 36.92 vacant positions. Did the member want me to read that into the record, or break it down by position?

We have industrial training partnerships where there's one vacancy; Apprenticeship, we have three vacancies; Employment Manitoba, we have 17.8 vacancies; Hydro Northern Training Initiative , one vacancy; Policy, Planning and Co- ordination, three vacancies; financial administrative services, one; admin operations, statistics bureau, 1.6; industrial development financial services, .4 – that's 2.2 positions at .4; industry consulting, two; and Manitoba Trade and Investment, three. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. If the minister could just table that list as well so we'd have it. Mr.

Bjo rnson: We will certainly provide you a copy, yes. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, are any projects in the department being delayed because of lack of staff? Mr. Bjornson: The short answer is no. The vacancy rate has been consistent with previous years. Labour market being what it is, when people make choices in life to retire, are doing so. They are retiring. But we've continued to provide the services and do the good work that we do within the department and manage our labour market –our own labour market demands accordingly. So the short answer, again, is no.

We've been very fortunate to have very good people working in the department and managing with the resources that are available and working with the –within the realities of people who are retiring as we wor k to replace some of those vacancies. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, have the wages of department and employees been frozen? Mr. Bjornson: For two years, the department staff had frozen salary; for two years, zero per cent, and under the collective agreement as of April 1st, an increase of 2.75 per cent. Mr. Smook : Mr.

Minister, it's 2.7 per cent, but I noticed in the Estimates book there's places where there's a one full -time EFT and it goes like, roughly, what? A 5 per cent increase? Could the ministe r explain some of those? Mr. Bjornson : Well, having been a teacher, been through incremental increases and salaries, this is essentially what you're seeing where it doesn't look like a 2.75 per cent increase.

We have a certification system for employees that will receive annual increments until they reach a certain maximum and during that time, not only are they eligible for the increment, but also the negotiated contract settlements and the 2.75 per cent on top of that. Mr. Smook: Mr. Minister, have any positions been relocated from rural Manitoba to Winnipeg or to Brandon, and if so, why? Mr. Bjornson : No. No positions have been relocated. Mr. Smook: Mr. Minister, has the minister travelled out of the province at all on provincial business? Mr.

Bjornson : Yes, last November 21st to 26th, I was on a trade mission to Mexico, four cities in four days–or three cities in four days, that was November 21st to 26th. June 12th to 14th, 2011, the Fredericton–Fredericton was host to the southeast United States and Canadian provinces alliance conference or SUSCPA as it's known. I also had a federal-provincial-territorial committee on internal trade in Charlottetown on June 14th to 17th, and June 19th to 21st I was in Brookings, South Dakota , for the international legislators –legislative forum.

That particular forum was in its 12th year, a forum designed to address issues of mutual concern for North D akota, South Dakota, Minnesota and Manitoba as part of the Red River flood basin, and I've since taken the chair the last couple of years on behalf of Manitoba as we're trying to add trade and jobs in the economy and trade -related issues to the agenda. And we will be discussing that in about a month's time when I attend the same conference in Fargo. Mr. Smook: Did–Mr. Minister, did any of his staff accompany him on these trips?

1726 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 Mr. Bjornson: Brookings, South Dakota, of course, not from the Department of Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade. Fredericton and Charlottetown I was accom panied by my special assistant. And I should correct the record: when I int roduced Chris Sanderson earlier , I called him my special advise r, but he's actually my special assistant. Chris was not in Fredericton and Charlottetown with me at the time, it was–Tim Smith was my special assistant at the time.

Mexico, I had two staff from Manitoba Trade and Investment who were a part of that, one, of course, who is a specialist in South and Central America trade. And my executiv e director was with me as well. * (10:30) Mr. Smook: Mr. Minister, did the premium–Premier (Mr. Selinger) travel with him on any of these trips? Mr. Bjornson: No, the Premier did not travel with me. Mr. Smook: Mr. Minister, Building Independence. What is the purpose of the Building Independence program? Mr.

Bjornson : That's a pre -employment training program, and I'm looking at last year Estimate s book which speaks very specifically to what the initiativ es are designed to do, to reduce barriers to employment by providing tools, such as child care and voice mail services, provide job readiness assessments, provide links to training and employment, and support agencies to work in partnership with the EIA program. Mr. Smook: Mr. Chair, Mr. Minister, over the past several years the Building Independence program has not spent its entire budget in ea ch year. Can you explain why? Mr.

Bjornson: Yes, thank you for the question. The planned level of services have been delivered at less than the budgeted amount, so that's why you're seeing that difference in the Es timates versus the expenditure. Mr. Smook: Mr. Chair, Mr. Minister, what happens to that excess? Is it transfe rred to other departments or–? Mr. Bjornson: The funding woul d lapse at the end of the year. Mr. Smook: Mr. Chair, Mr. Minister, Scott Smith, the former member from Brandon West –Scott Smith works for your department? Could you please provide a–his job description and salary for me? Mr.

Bjornson: Yes, thank you for the question, and I'm not sure if the member's aware that Mr. Smith has now tendered his –or given his notice and tendered his resignation. Mr. Smith goes to Springfield; he's going to be the CEO for Springfield. I believe it was in the Free Press just recently that he was moving on. But I was very fortunate to have Scott working in the department. He was hired to implement our commitment on–to remove barriers to internal trade, very well versed in the mechanics of that process and certainly did tremendous work to i mplement the obligations under

chapter 7 on the Agreement on Internal Trade, and he also worked on foreign qualification recognition. He was leading interdepartmental efforts to co -ordinate those recognitions. And he was under a one -year contract under Competitiveness, Training and Trade initially and was paid $89,932. And we extended the contract until December 1st of 2012, but, as mentioned, he has since given his notice. Mr. Smook: What–Mr. Minister, what qualifications did Scott have for this job? I mean, did he have a degree or–like, what was his qualifications? Mr. Bjornson : Well, certainly, Mr.

Smith's experience was connected to his experience as the minister responsible for internal trade –the Agreement on Internal Trade. He had been negotiating that as and involved in that process as minister. He also knew everybody who was involved across the country for –from every province and territory in that negotiation. And I think he did excellent work on behalf of the provinc e. As I said, the implementation of

chapter 7 on labour mobility ; the–another issue that he had been the champion of on our behalf was the dispute with Ontario on public accounting, which was successful in our favour; the Pan- Canadian Framework for the Assessment and Recognition of Foreign Qualifications, as I said earlier. So he did a tremendous job on behalf of the Department of Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade, and it's–I appreciate the question because I have an opportunity now to thank him public ly and put it on the record in Hansard that he had done such great work on behalf of the department on these very important files.

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1727 Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, will Scott be receiving any sort of a severance package from the department? Mr. Bjornson: No, he will not. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, former MLA Bonnie Korzeniowski was appointed to the position of military envoy. Does this fall under your department? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, I am responsible for the military envoy. Mr. Smook: Could the minister please tell me what her budget would be and what her yearly annual salary will be? Mr. Bjornson : The budget is $190,000 and her contract salary is 85.6–$85,600. Mr.

Smook: Could the minister explain to me why, like, the –that she would need an outside office? Is there no place in the Legislative Building that s he could possibly work out of? Mr. Bjornson: I think, given the scope and scale of the work that she's done in the past and the way the position has evolved, her location in, I believe, in St. James is also in close proximity to many of the military bases that we have in Winnipeg as well.

And her position has essentially evolved, given the role that she has played in the past, the support that she has from the military for the role that she has played and will continue to play. And I think it's a very good signal to our military that this entity be located where it is and continues to provide the service that had been provided in the past, and more so. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, I'm going to refer to a letter dated December 18–or December 16th, 2011, where–comes from Barbara Dryden in the –and it's regarding expenditure m anagement.

And it says in here–like, there's a number of points of 'refurning' – refrain from refurbishing or relocati on of office spaces, restricting advertising, relative activity. There's a number of points in that letter. And I'm just wondering, is there –was there nobody in the caucus that could've done this job? * (10:40) Mr. Bjornson : Well, I think M s. Korzeniowski really established herself in the role and is very well respected by the military.

The role is evolving, and especially when you consider what's happened federally with some of the supports to the military, things that have been cut by the federal gove rnment in the past or that have or will be cut. In fact, they're shutting down the deployment health

section of Canadian Forces Health Services Group. One -third of the front -line service workers will be eliminated over three years. Nine regional offices ar e closing from Veteran Affairs, including Brandon. So in light of some of the things that are happening with the supports for veterans nationally and under the federal budget of 2012, I think the role that Ms. Korzeniowski has played will continue to evolve and continue to provide important services as a conduit between veterans and military personnel to the provincial government.

And I think it's very important that we provide that support and profile for this very important positi on and file in our government. Mr. Smook: Mr. Minister, what will happen, like, in a few years when Bonnie decides to, say, retire? Does the minister got any plans, like, succession plans? Is he planning to ke ep this office open afterwards? Mr. Bjornson : Well, I'm not sure if the member's talking about four years from now, eight years from now, 12 years from now. You know, certainly, we'll see how the position evolves, what services are provided and the need that is being filled by Ms. Korzeniowski. Mr.

S mook: Just one more question on this topic. Just to get it straight, her budget for the office is at $190,000 and her wages are at $89,000? Mr. Bjornson : The $190,000 is the total office budget, and in that figure it includes her salary of 80–$85,600. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Just to clear that up, because you hadn't broken it down before, so this gives us an idea of exactly what the salary is. Apprenticeship: The Manitoba Home Builders and CFIB both stated the need to change the ratio of journeymen from apprentices of 1 to 1 to a higher ratio.

The other day in the Chamber, honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs, who used to have this portfolio, stated that there's a flexible ratio for journeymen to apprentices. Could the ministe r explain that to me, please? Mr. Bjornson : In the regulatory framework there are provisions that are for employers to apply to adjust the ratios. These are considered on the case- by-case basis. Generally, the ratio is one to one, but if there are unique circumstances where it is deemed

1728 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 appropriate to change those ratios, permission is granted to the employer for that purpose. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, could you provide me either a list or a number of such circumstances that exist? Like, how many there would be in the field out there that use this flexible ratio and what these ratios are? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, we would gladly provide that to you. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, the government's own Apprenticeship Futures Commission indicated that these ratios need to be reviewed. Does the minister have any intent ion of reviewing these ratios? Mr.

Bjornson : They are actively reviewed on an ongoing basis, and certainly safety is one of the first concerns around some of the apprenticeship training, as you would expect when you consider professions like electricians, et cetera. So we do take the requests from individual employers. We do act upon them where deemed appropriate, and they are reviewed on an ongoing basis as we see fit. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, is this flexible ratio advertised anywhere? Because one of the concerns that I had in meeting with stakeholders was they knew nothing about this. Like, is there something, is it on the website or–? Mr.

Bjornson: There are applications on the website for individual employers to access. So it is in the public realm and has been for some time now. Mr. Smook: Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Minister, for clearing that up for me. Apprenticeship has a new office on Lombard. What is the cost of r unning the department's new office on Lombard? Mr. Bjornson: Through Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation, we had tendered for a new space. The Lombard location was a successful tender and actually, in terms of the occupation of the building, it won't be until 2013.

So, to answer your question, the exact number will remain to be seen. Mr. Smook: So this office won't be open until 2013. Where are the present services being run out of right now? Mr. Bjornson: Apprenticeship Manitoba is currently at the Norquay Building. I just want to also clarify for the member that the Lombard location in 2013 will be a consolidation, not only of Apprenticeship, but also a number of services through Employment Manitoba. Mr. Smook: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ministe r, this new office on Lombard, how many students or apprentices would have to access that area on a daily basis? Mr.

Bjornson : Well, as the member could appreciate, it would vary depending on the time of year and the programs that individuals would be registering for. On average it's between 50 to 60 individuals a day who would be accessing the Apprenticeship branch services. As mentioned, though, this is also going to be housing Employment Manitoba, which as mentioned, I believe, in my opening comments , but if not, I'll mention it now. It services 35,000 clients a year. * (10:50) But we have created AccessManitoba, which is an online service for individuals to register for apprenticeship programs.

And I would suspect that that will impact the numbers as more and more students choose to use the AccessManitoba site to register for their apprenticeship programs. A nd not just students, of course, but employers can take advantage of this in support of their students. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Minister, like, there's the–quite a few people accessing that service on a daily basis, and I know that if parking is tough downtown, does the minister have any plans for extra parking for –because, I mean, students are limited in funding, their limited– like, is it going to be accessible to students? Mr.

Bjornson : The average age of those entering into the apprenticeship programs is 26 years of age, and this is the generation that is a lot more computer savvy than I, personally, will ever be; I'm not sure about the member from La Verendrye. But more and more are taking advantage of the online registration and that is where we're seeing most of the growth for the applications. So I don't see that being a big issue. Mr. Smook: In regards to trade, what a ctions is the minister taking to develop beneficial trading relations for Manitoba? Mr.

Bjornson : Well, certainly, we've been very active in developing a trade strategy. I had an

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1729 advisory council with a number of stakeholders at the table to talk about trade and they made recommendations towards the trade strategy. Two of the items that came out of that discussion included the working to support a world trade centre, and I have to congratulate those that were involved in the application for a world trade centre. They were successful in the application and, also, managed to fund it outside of the Province, that is to say, the Province's funding entity.

They have funded the application on their own, through other means, and we will certainly be working with them to support the trade centre. That is going to be one of over –I'm not sure how many hundreds, if not thousands of world trade centres there are right now. [interjection] Pardon me. Oh, 300 currently, but we can anticipate that there will be more. I know there's several in China alone, which is very important for us because the focus of our trade strategy has been the BRICS: Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

A nd having the connection of a world trade centre brand to the world trade centres that are currently operating in China is a very good asset for us. And, of course, we also have supported the second Centrallia, which will be forthcoming–small, medium ent erprises–about 600 from 40 different agencies–or economic areas –will be in Winnipeg in October to have business-to-business meetings. Of course, we have a number of –a lot of expertise in Manitoba Trade . We have over 17 different languages that are being delivered –can deliver services in 17 different languages.

We have a number of outbound missions and hosting inbound missions. I think we had 55 last year, outbound, and 17 inbound. We have developed a number of strategic plans for the next 12 to 24 months, including, new foreign trade representatives in Brazil and Russia, which is part of our BRICS strategy, and working to engage the local cultural communities. One of the benefits of having such a diverse community is the connections that we can make in foreign markets because of individuals who have left those countries that they use to call home, to call Manitoba home.

And we are looking to build on cultural connections to some of these markets. We provide a lot of market information sessions to priority markets in collaboration with key partners. In fact, I think, next week I'll be speaking at one of these luncheons talking about doing business in Asia. We work with Communications Services Manitoba to deliver on our trade communications plan, and that's been developed jointly by Manitoba Trade and Investment.

We, of course, are looking at bringing trade to Manitoba with profiling such projects as CentrePort and looking at more foreign investment coming to develop the largest foreign trade zone in t he country and what will be an incredible asset that we can expect to see expand over the next 10 years. We have a group of manufacturers who will be on a new board that will be providing advice to Manitoba Trade and Investment as well.

So there are a numb er of initiatives that are underway, and, certainly, we've weathered the economic storm well because of our diverse economy and the diverse manufacturing sector that we have as well as the raw materials that we're able to export. I've often, in conversation with my colleagues at the International Legislators Forum, discussed the fact that in the hour -long phone call that we have once a month, to set up that meeting, $60 million has crossed the Canada-US border.

They continue to one of our large –our largest partner, that's true, but we are one of the least dependent provinces on the United States for trade. And in light of what's happened with the American economy, we'll continue to look at new markets in the United States and support exporters who wish to t ap into the American market.

But the trip to Mexico that I referred to earlier, Mexico had gone from our fifth largest trade partner to our fourth largest trade partner, which is one of the reasons that I attended to Mexico, to make some political connecti ons to governors in Mexico, and look at some opportunities that might present themself in Mexico. So our strategy is to continue to work with our existing markets, to look at new opportunities within those existing markets, to establish opportunities in new markets, and to anticipate what the next group of markets will be that we can expect to see the growth in the economies of.

I believe there's a group of seven now, if not up to 11, countries that are emerging economies that we will explore potential there as well. So it's a multi -faceted strategy. It's involved a lot of expertise locally as well as a lot of boots on the ground in target markets to work towards expanding our trade opportunities in existing and emerging markets. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Last year, the minister commented, in his opening speech, of the Manitoba–that Manitoba continues to work with

1730 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 other jurisdictions to reduce the interprovincial trade barriers to trade. I assume this is still the case. If the government is concerned about interprovincial trade, interprovincial barriers to trade, why doesn't this government begin negotiations to join the New West Partnership? Mr. Bjornson: Well, I can assure the member that we are in discussion with our partners in the west, as we always have been, and will continue to do. The western premiers are meeting next week. We have ample opportunity to have lots of discussions with our colleagues to the west.

We had a first -ever joint Cabinet meeting in Brandon where we discussed issues of mutual concern with Saskatchewan. I know that's resulted in looking at trucking regulations interprovincially. We have a number of different achievements that we can point to with respect to negotiations that have gone on interprovincially with our partners to the west. We also recognize that an agreement on internal trade should be a national agreement on internal trade.

Subregional trade agreements –it has been suggested by some that, perhaps, that can impede the –or impact your ability to negotiate a national trade agreement when you have subregional agreements that emerge. So we continue to talk to our western partners, and we continue to look for opportunities to work more collaboratively with our western partners. And our focus, though, has been a national agreement on internal trade. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Wouldn't the New West Partnership provide a good basis for a larger pan-Canadian agreement in the future? * (11:00) Mr.

Bjornson : Well, one of the issues that we continue to di scuss at the national table is remedies for dispute resolution mechanisms. And, if the member were to look at the New West Partnership Agreement and dispute resolution mechanism, it's not a position that is consistent with our position. So subregional tra de agreements can be–and I – I've been advised that subregional trade agreements can actually make it more difficult to enter into national trade agreements, if there is diverging opinions on matters such as dispute mechanisms. Mr. Smook: And thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr.

Minister, the CFIB, the –released a report that stated just over a half a million small businesses in Canada who do business in Europe, plan to increase the amount of goods they service, they buy or sell in Europe. Can you tell us what Manit oba's government opinion is on the Canada -EU free trade agreement? Mr. Bjornson : Well, I must say –and I thank the member for the question–I must say that we're very appreciative that we have been at the table and been active participants in the negotiation of the comprehensive European trade agreement. There are still some items that are under negotiation.

So to be any more specific than that at this time, given the fact that they're –the negotiations are ongoing, I–I'm not sure what more I can say to the member up–member from La Verendrye, other than the fact that this is a great potential for Manitoba producers in the agriculture sector; it's great potential for increased trade. And the European market is a massive market that we appreciate the opportunity to be at the table to negotiate and address some of the barriers to trade that currently exist. Mr. Smook : Mr.

Minister, were there any trade missions launched in this past year to Europe, or are there any in the future? Mr. Bjornson : We can get the number for you shortly, but there are a number of trade missions that have been undertaken where Manitoba Trade and Investments supports Manitoba companies that are looking at the European market. A good example would be the ' agri-technic' trade show, whic h is the largest ag implement trade show in the world, if I'm not mistaken. We had Manitoba companies participate–a record number of Manitoba companies participate in this 'agri-technic' last year.

And I believe the figure was anticipated over $30 million in deals that were signed at that particular trade show. There are a number of missions that have been undertaken with various companies, and I can get the number for you in due time. Mr. Smook : And thank you, Mr. Minister. That would be sufficient if w e can get the list whenever you have a chance to. The World Trade Center –Winnipeg will receiving a world trade centre, as the minister's aware of. This requires certain capital projects to be carried out, an important part of which is a signature building.

Does the government have any commitments at this time to help this world trade centre group out?

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1731 Mr. Bjornson : Yes, thank you.

In my earlier comments, I mentioned that it was the Council for International Trade, the advisory committee that had been established by my office to look at international trade agenda, and this was one of the recommendations that came from that council and certainly we're aware that world trade centres that are established all over the world –over 300, as mentioned earlier –come in various forms, whether it's a signature building that's built specifically under that brand and to attract other businesses to–and offices to that particular structure because of the cachet that's attached to that brand, quite frankly, or whether it's taking existing buildings and converting them to the World Trade Center.

So there are various forms. Right now getting the licence was the first step –or, I'm not sure if licence is the appropriate word, but having the franchise–[interjection] Yes, thank you –the franchise of the World Trade Cent er was the first step. There will be several other steps that will have to be undertaken to realize what the World Trade Center will be, whether it is an existing building or signature building. But they are working on a business plan, and by the "they," I'm referring to the proponents who've been engaged in this process as well as my department.

We're actively engaged with those proponents for the World Trade Cent er and we'll continue to do so. But as yet we don't have a business plan that's been submitted for that purpose, whether it's a plan to build new or to convert existing space. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Minister, who in the minister's department is responsible for the Provincial Nominee Program for business? Mr. Bjornson: Rick Zebinski is the senior manager for Business Immigration and Investment. Mr. Smook : Thank you, Mr. Minister, for that answer.

Could the minister explain to me, like, if I was living in southeast Asia and I wanted to come open up a business in Canada, could the minister explain to me all the steps I would have to take? What would be involved in coming to Canada to run a business? Mr. Bjornson : Yes, the process is–it's quite involved. The prospective applicant would contact the Provincial Nominee Program business stream to express interest in immigrating to the province through the program first and foremost.

The applicant submits an exploratory visit document, in order to attend the mandatory exploratory business – visit component of the process. The documents are pre-screened to ensure that the basic program criteria for net worth and business ownership or senior management experience are indeed met. If the potential applicant appears to meet the criteria they're invited to conduct the exploratory visit, and during that visit an immigration officer conducts an in-depth interview in order to assist in the selection process.

Once the visit is complete, the applicant submits a full and complete application, including a business intent document, and once it has been determined that the application is accurate and complete, the applicant is notified that their file will be reviewed by an immigration officer within 120 days. The assigned immigration officer assesses the application in its entirety and prepares a recommendation to be presented to the assessment review team, or ART. ART meets on a daily basis.

ART and the assessing business immigration officer will discuss the factors that led to the officer's recommendations, after which the ART or assessment review team renders a decision on the application. * (11:10) If approved, the applicant is sent to–sent a nomination letter and a 'deposint'–deposit agreement for signature. So the nominee returns a signed copy of the deposit agreement and deposits the required $75,000. The deposit agreement outlines the details of the terms and the conditions under which their application was approv ed.

A certificate of nomination is forwarded to the federal government and the nominee submits all required documentation to Citizenship and Immigration Canada for consideration and, if approved, the nominee is issued a permanent resident visa. And, once the applicants land in Manitoba as permanent residents, they're expected to contact the PNPB business settlement office to obtain information on how to successfully establish a business ventures in Manitoba. And after successful execution of the terms and conditions of their approval, if it's verified, the $75,000 deposit is fully refunded to the applicants. Mr.

Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister, for that bit of information. I believe that in 2011 there were 421 applications from the top five applicant

1732 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 countries; however, only 169 of these applications were approved . T hat's an approval rate of 40 per cent. Is there a reason for this? Mr. Bjornson: Well, as mentioned when I outlined the process, each of the applications that are received are assessed indivi dually and the applications must meet the criteria in order to be successful. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, of the 169 that were approved, how many of them actually came to Canada, put their deposit down and are –have opened up businesses in Canada?

And you m ay not have the right amounts from 2011 because they still might be in progress, but if we could get the numbers, say, from 2010? Mr. Bjornson: Well, as the member can appreciate, I believe that we welcomed over a hundred and –or people from over 130 countries last year. And when there are individuals applying to the nominee program for business, the countries of origin where they–or, pardon me, the country of origin that they might be applying for a visa from, in some cases can take six to 12 months. In s ome cases, I've been advised it could be anywhere from five to six years.

So, depending on where the applicant is from , it can take a long time for them to get that visa. A second component is the two -year window within which the individuals have under the agreement once they've landed to –they have a two - year window to establish that business.

So, if you're coming from a country that takes five to six years to get a visa and then it takes an additional year or two to establish your business, although they might have applied in this year, quite conceivably, by the time the visa is granted and a business is built and established it could be seven to eight years depending on that country. Since the inception in 2000, over 443 initial business investments have been made by the–by program nominees and it's a total direct investment in the province in excess of $177 million; 67 per cent of these initial business investments were located in Winnipeg.

The remaining 33 were located in–33 per cent, pardon me, were lo cated in regional Manitoba areas, and since its inception over 4,200 business immigrants and dependants have landed here in Manitoba. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. On this Provincial Nominee Program it also–it's, like–it's small business and Young Farmer Nominee Program. Is there –could you give me a breakdown on what that would be? The –like, how many businesses, how many farmers? Mr. Bjornson : I can give the member an approximate number.

Out of the 481 successful entrepreneurs, I believe 95 wo uld be farmers and some of them would have come under the young farmers program. Mr. Smook : Thank you, Mr. Minister. Of them, people that settled here, does the government keep track of how many have remained in the province, or have moved to other provinces? Mr. Bjornson : Well, certainly, as the member can appreciate, once they have arrived and become Canadian citizens, they're a right to all the freedoms afforded to Canadian citizens, and mobility across the country is one of those freedoms.

But certai nly, as mentioned, with the investment that we've seen, you would suspect that setting up a business and roots in the community, your chances of staying in the community to nurture and grow that business are greater. And, as the member would appreciate, th ose 95 farmers that have made those investment in farms, assuming that they are successful operations, they will be tied to those operations and to that land. But we don't track the individuals. As said, they're entitled to all the rights and privileges as a Canadian citizen, including, under the Charter, the freedom of mobility.

That said, the member knows that the province has grown and it's grown considerably; over a hundred thousand more people are calling Manitoba home today than they did 10 years ago, and the bulk of that has been from immigration to the province. I believe there have been some statistics about immigrants being gainfully employed within six months and purchasing homes within five years of coming to Manitoba. And substantial number of them that do do that; I don't know the number specifically, but I believe it's in the neighbourhood of 80 per cent on both counts.

So, though we don't track, you can–it's probably safe to assume that a good number that do come here, come here with intention to stay and do stay. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Are there any staff vacancies in this program presently? Mr. Bjornson: One vacancy right now. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Spending on advertising from two hundred and –or, sorry, eight

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1733 hundred and seventy -nine million, two hundred and fifty-one in financial year 2010 to 2011 to nine hundred and ninety -nine, seven oh three in '11 -12. Could the minister this explain this? What was the extra hundred thousand dollars used for? Mr. Bjornson: The biggest share of that additional expenditure would be advertising census 2011. There were a number of initiatives that the department's undertaken to advertise with brochures, business cards, letterhead, promotional brochures.

One of the recommendations that came from the auditor–or, pardon me, the Ombudsman with respect to employment, income a ssistance was to provide more brochures outlining the programs that were available to EIA applicants and EIA -eligible individuals. So that was one of the materi als that were printed for that purpose. BizPaL planning–apprenticeship program –the member might have seen some of the bus ads or television ads promoting the apprenticeship program. When you are doubling the number of apprentices, you need to advertise what's available to the employer in terms of tax credits.

You need to advertise and–to young persons that are considering careers to consider the trades and apprenticeship programs. So these are some of the initiatives that accounted for the advertising. And BizPaL, as well, I think that's been a tremendous success here in the province of Manitoba. As I mentioned, 70 municipalities, accounting for almost 80 per cent of the population of the province, connected to BizPaL, and if you compare that to other jurisdictions, we're punching way above our weight in terms of getting our municipal partners hooked up on the BizPaL portal.

So we need to advertise these programs and support these programs and make clients and consumers aware of what is available to them. * (11:20) Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, the reason I asked that question is, again, going back to the letter about restricting related advertising. Is there any way that you can readjust your advertising to focus on the areas that you need to without– Mr. Chairperson: Honourable Minister. Mr.

Bjornson : Well, when you're looking at your advertising dollar, you have to look at the benefit for the investment of that advertising dollar, and certainly, when you look at the advertising for the census 2011, as the m ember should know, when the census is done and complete and the population statistics are recorded, that has an impact on federal transfer payments, for one, the more people that are registered in the province of Manitoba on a per capita basis for the federal transfer payments.

And then certainly, when you have stakeholders who are looking at labour market chall enges, when you have the second lowest and third–and second or third lowest unemployment rate in the country and they need skilled labour, we need to advertise for our apprenticeship programs.

So I'm sure the member would agree that we just have to be smart about our advertising and assess the impact and expect return on that advertising, and I think we've been very successful in realizing that retur n with respect to the success of Manitoba's participation in the 2011 census, and with respect to the fact that we've been able to double the number of apprentices and work to meet those labour market demands for skilled trades. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. On

schedule 3 it shows estimated expenditures for 2012- 2013 as $574.473 million. Is that correct? Mr. Bjornson: That would be correct. Mr. Smook : Estimates on that same page show at 565,331. Could the minister give me what was the exact expenditure, not the estimated expenditure, for '11-12. Mr. Bjornson: I can't give the member that number because we haven't fully closed the year. The auditor's assessment of the expenditures will be available in September. Mr. Smook : Thank you, Mr. Minister . Does the minister feel that this number will be higher than what the estimated number is? Mr.

Bjornson : I understand that our third -quarter forecast had an expenditure of approximately $4 million more than the Estimates. I think the member can appreciate that many of the programs and services that we provide in the department are also consumer driven and that will impact those expenditures. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The reason I ask that question is, in –like, going over the employment and income assistant budget, 2010-2011 the estimated budget was at two hundred and ninety - three million, seven hundred and ninety-four, but the actual was at three- oh-eight seven -seventy.

The estimated budget for 2011- 2012 was at three -oh-six five seventy-three. Like, the budgets are always quite a–actuals are quite a bit higher than what the budgets

1734 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 are, and I'm just wondering if the budget amount of five seventy-four four seventy-three versus the 565 is high enough, and if it isn't, where will the cuts o r what will be done to try to balance that? Mr. Bjornson: Well, the EIA budget prior to '07- 08 has been under budget, and certainly with the world economic downturn, the EIA budget has been over budget.

But one of the reasons why –as the member asked earlier, why EIA was being moved into ETT, the intent is to, as I said, provide more training opportunities for those in–currently receiving employment income assistant benefits and to ultimately see a reduction in those who are receiving benefits by providing meaningful training and employment. And we have seen a drop in–overall the number of cases have been lower since they had been in the mid-'90s. They're about the same as they were 10 years ago, with a slight increase in the last couple of years.

But that s aid, with the training that we're going to be providing, we're looking to reverse that trend. Mr. Smook: And thank you, Mr. Minister. So what I'm reading here is what the minister's plans are, are to take more people off EI and put them on training programs? Mr. Bjornson : That's–the intent is to provide training opportunities for those who are with work expectations who–with the hope that it will lead to long-term sustainable employment. Mr. Smook: Mr.

Minister, does the–do we have any figures from previous years as to how successful these training programs –like, are we continually getting more and more people off of the EI system, or are those numbers increasing? Mr. Bjornson : Well, over the past year, as mentioned, the EIA caseload has grown in light of the economic downturn and some of those realities. But the member should also keep in mind that the number of cases for 2011- 12 is 35,427 cases, and that amounts to 5.1 per cent of the population.

And, yes, that is an increase since 2010 -11, but there are fewer Manitobans who are on welfare today than there were in '93 -94, and where the –when the number was 49,351. The number of recipients that were on welfare in 1999 -2000 was actually 5.9 per cent of the population, so when you put it in that context, yes, there has been an increase in the number of cases, but we've actually decreased that as a percentage of the population.

And, given the realities of the economic downturn and managing the economi c downturn, I think we are very well positioned to provide that training and support that would result in sustainable employment for a number of individuals who are currently part of the EIA caseload. And that, again, was one of the reasons why we looked at the combination of EIA with ETT, to streamline those services and provide t hose training opportunities. So when you put it in that context of 5.1 per cent of the population, relative to 5.9 per cent 12, 13 years ago, in that sense it has gone down.

And there is more opportunities for training now, so we'll continue to– we'll hopefully see that trend continue where the real numbers will go down as well. * (11:30) Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Could the minister give me what percentage the caseload has increased in the last three years, like, year by year? Mr. Bjornson : In '08 -09 it was minus .9 per cent, and then we saw an increase of average monthly persons at 4.6 per cent in '09 -10, 3.2 per cent in '10-11 and 2.6 per cent in '11-12. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

On the preface of the Estimates book there's a paragraph there that says, Since October 2002 employers' share of current service contributions has been included in departmental appropriations for new employees. Beginning in 2009-2010 the employers' share of current service contributions for all employees has been included in departmental appropriation purposes. Could you explain that to me? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, thank you for the question. What that means is that pension co sts were actually budgeted within the department after previously having been budgeted centrally.

So it was determined that the costs for –associated per department, including pensions, should be attached to that department to find more transparency around the costs for the department. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. In going over this Estimates book, I notice there's a lot of programs that are jointly funded, but, yet, could the minister tell me how many dollars do we get from, say, the federal gove rnment into ETT,

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1735 any other dollars that we may get from other sources? Mr. Bjornson: I can refer to–the member to page 54 where there are two of the major items that are revenues from the federal government. On page 54, 10.3, under Labour Market Skills , item (

e) the Canada-Manitoba Labour Market Development Agreement, or the LMDA, which is 52,589 and the Canada-Manitoba Labour Market Agreement, which is 23,110. I should also point out for the member that the Canada-Manitoba Labour Market Development Agreement is one that comes from the Employment Insurance program, so it's funded by the labour market. Mr. Smook: In the–in your department there's a new position created called the intake co-ordinator. Could you explain that to me please, Mr. Minister? Mr. Bjornson : Yes, this position was transferred from Family Services.

It's new to this department but not to government. And the intake co-ordinator deals with individuals with EIA, questions or concerns around their benefits or things of that nature. Mr. Smook: Mr. Chair, Mr. Minister, who currently fills that position? Mr. Bjornson : I mentioned that in my opening comments. Laurie Favell -Mowat is the intake co - ordinator. Mr. Smook: Mr. Chair, does–Mr. Minister, does she have a backup, or is there any more, or just one intake co-ordinator? Mr.

Bjornson : There are individuals who might contact the department directly, but there are also those that will call the minister's office directly, and those calls are handled by the intake co- ordinator. And it's a very important service to assist individuals who have those questions and concerns around EIA benefits. And, that's the task that Ms. Favell -Mowat has been performing for a couple of months now, and doing a terrific job of that task. Mr. Smook: In the book–that shows that there are 30 full-time positions that were transferred over from Employment and Income Assistance. Mr.

Bjornson : There's actually 41 that were transferred; 30 in the program area, the intake co-ordinator, as I mentioned, in my office, and nine, finance and admin. Mr. Smook : My understanding of how the department works, that the administration part of it is in your department but there's still the front -line services that are still in Family Services. Could you explain to me how that works? Mr. Bjornson : Well, when we first looked at the integration of EIA and ETT, we wanted to make sure our first priority was t o the client and to ensure that they had a continuity of delivery of services.

And, as such, when you have a system that's working well, you don't want to dismantle that system; you don't want to take apart that system. * (11:40) So the services –service providers in Family Services remained in that capacity in Family Services but continue to work with ETT in providing integrated services. So that was part of the transition that–decisions made around that transition to put, of course, customer–or client services first and foremost and ensure the continuity of service and support for the clients. Mr. Smook : Mr.

Minister, if a person applies for EIA, what is the process from beginning to completion in order for them to start receiving benefits? Mr. Bjornson: With the inquiry–first inquiry as to – and whether or not an individual would be eligible to receive Employment and Income Assistance, they would be required to submit some documentation to demonstrate their needs. Once that has been received, there's an intake meeting scheduled where the individual applicant would meet with a counsellor to assess that –the individual situation.

Once the financial documentation and need has been assessed and verified, then the individual would be eligible to receive EIA benefits. In the event that the need is immediate and there is emergent need, then there are some emergency supports that can be provided for that individual until such time that benefits are provided on a regular basis. Mr. Smook: So I take it the first request would go to the intake officer in your department? Mr. Bjornson: Thank you for the question. The first contact would go to the Community Service Delivery unit, which is in Family Services.

At that point there would be an assessment, not only of their financial needs but also an assessment of

1736 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 health needs, of child- care needs that a client might require, and then–that is the first step. These Community Service Delivery units are located in six different offices in Winnipeg and in offices throughout the province of Manitoba. Mr. Smook : What were the costs associated with this reorganization–business cards, letterhead? Mr. Bjornson : Actually, we're continuing to use existing letterheads and forms until the supply runs out, so there will not be any of those costs incurred.

And I see I get the thumbs -up from the 'metter'– member from Midland, so he's very pleased that we're being frugal and responsible with those resources. Mr. Smook : Thank you, Mr. Minister. The staff – like, when it was being run under Family Services, the staff had office locations. Are they–is all the staff still in all the same locations, or have offices changed? Mr. Bjornson: Right now, staff are currently in the offices that they were in prior t o the announcement of the merger.

What we will be looking at is if there are opportunities for efficiencies to be realized as a result of the merger of EIA with ETT. Then we'll certainly work to achieve those efficiencies in terms of office constructs and other matters around administration where, perhaps, we can realize more efficiencies. Mr. Smook : Thank you, Mr. Minister. I've had phone calls from constituents that seem to be –they phone one department, they say it's the other department's problem, and it was going back and forth between Family Services and ETT.

Could the minister comment on if anything has been done to try to solve that problem? Mr. Bjornson : Having a dedicated intake co-ordinator to address issues around EIA clients is – has been a key part to address any of those issues that may have arisen initially from the merger. Mr. Smook: Thank you. I will let. Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I understand the question was asked earlier in regard to Bonnie Korzeniowski's salary and I understood t he minister to say it was roughly $85,000. I would just like to ask, first of all, when that salary began.

When she was–what was the date of the salary commencement as the Manitoba envoy? Mr. Bjornson : The contract began October 5th, 2011. Mrs. Taillieu: And she would've been paid as the MLA until October 4th, 2011? Mr. Bjornson: That is correct. Mrs. Taillieu: Does Ms. Korzeniowski also receive severance pay as a retired MLA? Mr. Bjornson: I believe the member would have to ask the Legislative Assembly that question. Mrs. Taillieu: Okay. So there was no time in between her leaving, the member, as a Legislature and becoming this special envoy –or I guess the Manitoba envoy –her salary immediately continued.

So there was no competition for this particular position, she was just basically continued to be paid. So her pay –the $85,000–would've been coming out of Leg. Assembly before that. So the minister was able to provide me with that information, where that salary came from, so I'm wondering why he wouldn't be able to provide the information about severance pay. Mr. Bjornson : Ms. Korzeniowski began her contract on October 5th. As far as severance pay, as the member knows, that is dealt with through t he Legislative Assembly and that is where t hat question should be asked.

I' m certainly not aware if she is –or has received severance pay. * (11:50) Mrs. Taillieu: Does the member receive her cheques through E, T and T? Mr. Bjornson : Yes, since October 5th, when the contract began. Mrs. Taillieu: Can you tell me the amount of her cheques–her biweekly cheque? Mr. Bjornson : Well, I –sorry, I don't have a calculator–and there's a reason I taught history and not math–but it's $85,600 divided by 12, as a contract salary, and that would be approxi mately $7,133.33 monthly. Mrs.

Taillieu: I'm just wondering if we could have some documentation on that, just to show exactly what her cheques are–biweekly cheques. Mr. Bjornson : I–you know, it's a rather curious question coming from the member who's t alked about freedom of information and privacy. I've given the member the amount of the contract, but to ask for

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1737 us to disclose a –an individual's personal cheque, I think, is not appropriate. As stated, the contract started October 5th; she's getting a sa lary of $85,600, and don't know what more I need to tell the member in terms of that agreement. Mrs. Taillieu: Well, thanks, but all MLAs and, actually, anybody that works in government, is a public servant, and it's public information should people want that information. Are you telling me I have to file a freedom of information request? Is that what you're saying? Mr. Bjornson: Well, first of all, Ms.

Korzeniowski is no longer a public service –servant. She is providing services on a contract basis and, as the member knows, individuals that are –with salaries over $50,000, that work for the civil service, have their salaries disclo sed once a year. And again, in this particular case, I've told the member what the contract amount is, so I'm really not sure where the member would see fit to see a private individual's paycheque. Mrs.

Taillieu: Well, it's just pretty obvious that this person went right from being an MLA into another position specifically tailored and made for her at basically the same salary as an MLA. So it's curious to me how this arrangement began, and I'd like to ask the minister when this contract was signed between E, T and T and Ms. Korzeniowski. Mr. Bjornson : Well, as mentioned, Mr. Chair, Ms. Korzeniowski did continue her role and commenced work as a private individual on a contract basis on October 5th, and the contract was – followed shortly thereafter. Mrs. Taillieu: Was this a tendered contract?

Were there other people that were allowed to bid on this contract? Mr. Bjornson: No, Ms. Korzeniowski is serving in a transitional role to ensure the representation that the military had in our government continues during this transition stage. We've had very good feedback from the military community with respect to the role that she has played. Ms.

Korzeniowski was instrumental in, among other things, creating legislation that protected reservists when they we re called into service in Afghanistan and other tours, worked on the creation of the veterans' licence plates, voting rights for troops who were serving overseas, assisting with the family resource centre at 17 Wing, the yellow ribbon campaign, or the yellow ribbon of support campaign was brought to the Legislature under her leadership and direction. And I know the member wasn't –had–perhaps hadn't heard the information that I put on the record earlier in terms of the role that Ms.

Korzeniowski has played and continues to play and the context in which she continues to play that role. You know, she has been a presence at many military functions, meetings, celebrations, award presentations, openings, change of commands, fundraising events, troop and veteran support, has been led by the envoy, and it has evolved into a full -time role. And put that into the context of what's happened federally with Veterans Affairs, the member may or may not know that they are shutting down federally the deployment health sectio n of Canadian Forces Health Service Group.

One -third of the front -line service workers are going to be eliminated over three years and a regional office in Brandon is going to be shut down. So, when you put in context of what she has done in the past, wha t she will do in the future, I think it's really important that she continue to play this role and support the military families here in Manitoba when they're seeing some of their services being cut federally. Mrs. Taillieu: If Ms. Korzeniowski is working on a contract, I imagine that on a contractual basis she's not subject to any deductions on her paycheque? Mr.

Bjornson : Well, again, we're talking about a private individual and the contractual arrangement with a private individual. And those are –those matters of her salary are her matters and her private matters, and she'd be responsible for her remittance for any taxes to be paid. Mrs. Taillieu: Well, I'm curious then. If she's on a wage where she's hired by the government, or if she's on a contract, because if she's on contract she's got no deductions, and you also mentioned earlier that she might be there for a term of four to eight years. What is the term of the contract? Mr. Bjornson: It's a one -year term.

And I think the member was referring to a little bit of levity. At least I was trying to bring some levity when the up–my critic asked if I was planning on keeping her–that position for any length of time. And I asked him if he meant four years, eight years or 12 years. It was certainly meant in jest in terms of the time frame that

1738 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 the member had in mind. But it is a one-year contract and it's a contract for personal services. Mrs. Taillieu: Well, I thank the minister for clarifying that. When was the prior arrangement made with Ms. Korzeniowski that she would get this position once she retired? Was it offered to her as a incentive to retire? Mr. Bjornson: I am not aware of the when. Mr. Smook: Back to Mr. Minister there.

On page 74 of the program expenditures, employment and income assistant, health services, income assistance, persons with disabilities, are all these programs available and are they going to be continued on in future years? Are there any programs that are coming to an end? * (12:00) Mr. Bjornson: Yes, these programs have carried on from Family Services and the programs that were introduced at that time –or programs that were introduced under the Family Services portfolio, but we do review programs and expenditures on an ongoing basis.

So to sugges t that they will continue in the future, at this point I cannot say, but the programs –if they're certainly doing what they're designed to do and delivering the benefit that they're designed to deliver, then they will continue to be supported. Mr. Smook : Thank you, Mr. Minister. The take charge program –where does it belong in these expenditures, and is it still, or will it still, be available? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, take charge is budgeted under Employment Manitoba.

And we'll continue to support take charge, but, like every program that we do fund or co- fund, we certainly review and look to ensure that they're delivering what the intent was to deliver in terms of training and employment skills, et cetera, for the clients. Mr. Smook: I did have some questions in regards to the Estimates for 2011- 2012 for the actuals, but I believe the minister had indicated that they won't have any of these informations until September? Is that correct? Mr. Bjornson : Yes, September, as mentioned, is when the audit is complete and the audited financial statements will be released. Mr.

Smook : Thank you, Mr. Minister. Given that the basic EI rates have not kept up to inflation and their value having thus fallen by 35 per cent since the early 1990s, will there be any cost -of-living increases given to Employment and Income Assistance recipients this year? Mr. Bjornson : There have been no cost -of-living increases, but there have been a series of improvements under other programs, such as the Rewarding Work initiative, to address matters of cost-of-living increases. Mr. Smook : Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Can the minister tell us how many people are receiving Employment and Income A ssistance at the moment and how many are on a joint –like you had mentioned, like, some are getting funding from two different sorts–sources? Mr. Bjornson: I thank the member for the question, and the caseload for 2011- 12 is 35,427 cases –as I said, 5.1 per cent of the population.

Those cases would fall under three different categories: there's the general assistance category, where individuals would have work ex pectations; there is the single parent supports, which would also receive a federal GST tax benefit as well as some child benefit supports; t here are also individuals with disabilities, individuals who may or may not be part of a family who would receive varying degrees of support as well. So those are the three general categories and–was the member looking for a breakdown in terms of how many of those 35,000 would fall under each of those categories?

Is that what the member was asking? Mr. Smook : Yes, basically I was looking–and the question was also that you had mentioned that people take from two different categories. Was that–no? Mr. Bjornson: Well, I guess a good example would be some of the provincial plus federal benefits for, let's say for single parents. If you have a –children– you know, one example is if children between the ages of 12 and 17, if a single parents has three children between the ages of 12 and 17 the provincial support would be $1,274 a month, the federal support $906 a month, for a total of $2,180 a month.

And those are the benefits, combined federal - provincial that a single parent would be eligible for with three children between those ages. Mr. Smook : I just need some clarification here. Earlier you talked about that taking people off one, say, EI program and moving them onto a work program or a learning program. Would–so when

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1739 somebody would, say, whatever their entitlement would be for a month, would that total amount be moved over to that other program, or is it –or are there places where they're funded from two different programs, like income assistance and the training program? Mr. Bjornson : Well, if there's an individual who's receiving income assistance, they can get training support related to the costs of the training. If they're not on income assistance, they can get a living allowance while training.

If they're receiving funding from two separate sources, they wo uld be –the funding would be reduced proportionately to reflect the two different sources of income. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, like, from what I understand of this program, is that the more people you move off I –in income assistant onto training programs, that does make the income assistant numbers look better. Now, can the minister provide us with solid numbers that indicate how many people are actually moving from A to B to C to finally nothing, that they are back into the workforce? Mr.

Bjornson : I can speak to what we have been able to achieve through the Rewarding Work initiative when it was introduced in Ap ril of 2007 through to January of 2012. Approximately 7,500 people have left welfare for work and, as of the end of 2010- 11, nearly 4,300 people were working while getting a top up from welfare support. And the Rewarding Work initiatives will continue to assist people who are looking to move to employment and it will be enhanced with the recent inclusion of EIA within ETT.

And we’re hoping to see those numbers continue to improve, certainly, providing those meaningful training opportunities, matching some o f the skill sets and assessing the skill sets to match to those training opportunities. * (12:10) Again, one of the advantages that we do have to achieve this is the fact that we still continue to have low unemployment, and there will be more opportunities for individuals to access the training to meet some of those labour market demands.

So the Rewarding Work has been successful in moving a number of clients off of income assistance and, as mentioned, when they are getting training support, if there's tr aining support and living allowance, the benefits are adjusted to reflect the training income as well as the –or training support as well as the EIA benefit. Mr. Smook: Mr. Chair, Mr. Minister, maybe I didn't understand what the minister was saying before, but the question I was wondering about, how many clients have actually left the training program back into society? I don't know if you answered that question or not.

Have left the training programs, that are no longer on any type of assistance, that are in the workforce. Mr. Bjornson : From '07 to January 2012, approximately 7,500 people have left EIA benefits and are gainfully employed. Mr. Smook: How does that compare to the people that have now entered the system? Mr. Bjornson: As mentioned, we've seen increases in the last three years, so there are more people on employment income assistance, but we are continuing to provide the training opportunities and support as some clients are successful in finding work.

There are others that find themselves , through whatever circumstance, requiring employment income assistance. So we –we're hoping that those that are, as I said, with work expectations, can receive the training to help them get back into sustainable employment. Mr. Smook : Thank you, Mr. Minister. Can the minister please tell me what programs are in place to help move single parents off of welfare and into the workforce? Mr. Bjornson: Well, there's the enhanced education program.

There's the Rewarding Work health plan as well, in terms of continuity of health benefits when an individual is re -entering the workforce. There's Employment Manitoba training programs as well, a number of different Employment Manitoba training programs. The member also mentioned some of the partners that we have, who are providing various supports in training and that also work with–within their communities to address very specific needs, whether it's English as an additional language support, some places that are providing child -care options as w ell.

So there's a number of different programs that are available, and a number that have been quite successful in achieving the goal of sustained employment for those that had been marginally unemployed.

1740 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, two years ago the Manitoba Ombudsman published a report on EIA containing recommendations for the reformation of EIA system. Has the department successfully implemented any of these recommendations? What were these recommendations and are there –what are they looking at? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, actually, I would like to inform the member that a group of community activists had been champion for this particular review by the Ombudsman, and I've met with those activists to discuss our progress to date on the 68 recommendations.

And I've committed to continue to meet with the activists, at least every six months or on an as - needed basis, to continue to provide a report card on the progress that we've made on the recommendations. Currently, 60 per cent of the recommendations we agreed to implement have been addressed and we anticipate that a further 10 per cent will be completed over the coming months. So we're looking at approximately 70 per cent of those moving forward. And I think I referred to one of them earlier under the question regarding advertising when we talked about the advertising budget.

There was the need to provide plain language brochures to inform individuals what they were eligible for, in terms of EIA benefits, and that was one of the recommendations that came from th e ombudsman, that we provide more information to clients about what benefits and programs were available to them. So that was just one example that I can point to but again, 60 per cent completion, 10 per cent –or 60 per cent implemented, 10–an additional 10 per cent will be implemented in a short order. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr.

Minister, could I get a list of the budget for the community economic development corporation? Mr. Bjornson : The CEDC to which the member refers is no longer the entity that he's referring to. It's now the Priorities and Planning Committee of Cabinet that the member would be referring to, and that particular program falls under the Department of Finance. Mr. Smook: That just took care of four questions for me. Mr. Minister, how many mobile training labs does your department presently have? Mr.

Bjornson: Actually, we don't have any, but Red River community C ollege is looking after two, and what we have committed to is to provide funding to support the programming for these particular mobile labs. Of course, the intent is to get these labs to remote and northern communities to bring the training to the commu nity, and we've com mitted to support the training–some of the costs associated with the training that will be provided from those particular facilities. * (12:20) Mr. Smook : These mobile training labs, are they, like, a universal type of a classroom, or a re they specific to certain training? Mr.

Bjornson: These trailers are actually configured in such a way that they can expand and they can be configured for a number of different programs to be offered, but they're particularly well suited to trades training, such as welding and carpentry, I would imagine, and plumbing and trades of that nature. Mr. Smook : Mr. Minister, like, these mobile training labs, does the government fund any other organization– like, there's Red River; you said Red River has two of them. Does –do any other organizations have them? Mr. Bjornson: Not to my knowledge, no. Mr.

Smook : Is this department looking at funding more of these labs for different purposes in training with northern and rural areas? Mr. Bjornson: What–could I ask the member what purposes he had in mind? I think the design of these labs, which–I've been advised the member of St. Norbert has actually been in them and seen them. And I'm not sure if he's been trained in them, but he's been in them and–or offered any training. But I'm not sure what the member had in mind as far as other purposes that you're suggesting they could be used for. Mr. Smook : Other purposes, like, for training purposes.

We were touring a few weeks ago and we saw a couple that were sittin g–they were welding, particularly made for welding.

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1741 Now we're just wondering, are you going to look at any other departments besides welding? Like, are you looking at doing anything that would be able to be used in other areas? Mr. Bjornson : Well, as m entioned earlier, the facilities are particularly well suited to welding and machining, and Red River community College will deploy them where the demand would–where there would be demand, quite frankly, to provide those training opportunities.

And part of the funding is designated for that purpose, to work with the configuration of the lab for the training that it's intended to deliver. But I should also let the member know that we've also been working on more online apprenticeship programing as well, where individuals can take courses online. And I, actually, when we launched that initiative, had an opportunity to navigate one of the units on how to fix a water pump, not that I'm about to go try and do it in the 30 minute tutorial that I had undertaken.

But, certainly, the skills that the market is looking for are–we're being flexible in how we work with our partners in the community colleges to deliver that training, and online and the mobile labs are two very effective ways to take that training where the training is needed, take it to rural and northern communities. So, it's a good partnership with Red River, and I know they'll deliver first -class programming where those trailers are deployed. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Could the ministe r tell me how –at present, how many seats the– your department has, like, at Red River and technical training, in different colleges in Manitoba? And if he could eventually provide me a list of how many they've had over the last year, what the numbers are in creasing, what they've increased by? Mr. Bjornson: Well, I've been advised that we don't have the numbers in terms of the breakdown by college, but we will certainly be prepared to provide a list to the member of the seats that we have negotiated with our colleges. Mr. Smook: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

But seeing what the time is, before I go I'd like to thank the staff because I didn't get a chance to thank them yesterday. So I'd like to thank the staff for attending here today and the minister for his answers. And I guess we're ready for the line-by-line. Mr. Bjornson : And I would like to thank the member for his questions today, and I, too, would like to extend my thanks to the staff who are here today for this exercise. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: Hearing no further questions, we will now proceed to consideration of the resolution relevant to this department. I will now call resolution 10.2.

Resolution 10.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $12,883,000 for Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade, Business Services, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2013. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 10.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 559 million–$551,043,000 for Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade, Labour Market Skills, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2013. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 10.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,456,000 for Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade, International Relations and Trade, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2013. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 10:5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,443,000 for Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2013. Resolution agreed to. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of this department is item 10.1.(a), the minister's salary contained in the–in resolution 10.1.

At this point, we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this last item. The floor is open is for questions. I hear no questions. Resolution 10.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,648,000 for Entrepreneurship, Training and

1742 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 Trade, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2013. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Entrepreneurship, Training, Trade–and Training and Trade. And the hour being 20–sorry –the hour being 12:30 p.m., committee rise. EDUCATION * (10:00) Mr. Chairperson (Rob Altemeyer): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Education. As has been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner and the floor is wide open for questions. Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): It's a pleasure to be back in Education Estimates, and I thank the minister for being here and also the deputy minister and his staff. This morning, I'm –wonder if we could turn our attention, first, to the class size cap initiative for the province of Manitoba.

And I wonder if the minister could begin by just indicating how long the department was looking at implementing a class size cap before the decision to undertake one at this time. Hon. Nancy Allan (Minister of Education): Well, we have–we had been looking–we know how important the early years are to public education, and we have done a lot of work in t he early years. I – we're very –the work that we've done in the early years has really paid off.

There is a recent Fraser Mustard report, the early years three statistical report, that shows that Manitoba is one of three jurisdictions that is recognized for the work that they have done in regards to early learning. So we were looking at how we could continue doing work in that area. The Manitoba Teachers' Society put out a report, prior to the election campaign–I can't recall; it might've been, maybe, four m onths before the campaign or six months before the campaign, and the reduction of class size was their No. 1 priority in regards to how to enhance our public education system.

We knew that it have been done in two other jurisdictions in Canada –Ontario, who we have followed a lot of the education reform that Ontario is doing. So that's–so we felt that that was going to be something that we could work in partnership with our stakeholders in regards to providing more quality, one -on-one time for young people w ith teachers. So that was kind of the thinking around it, and kind of the impetus for, moving in that direction. Mr. Friesen: The minister has referenced more quality time with students with their teachers. Is that the main rationale?

And could the minist er just explain a bit of the rationale, the philosophy behind this move, and what the rationale would be underlying it, what the benefit would be to parties? Ms. Allan: Well, there's absolutely no question that smaller class sizes in the early years does p rovide more one-on-one time with–between the teacher and the student. And the other thing that, of course, the oversight committee has talked about is, as well, teeth–teaching methodologies.

It can't just be small – it just can't be smaller class sizes; it a lso has to be recognition around teacher methodologies and how those strategies in the classroom might be enhanced with the smaller class size. So there's actually two kinds of pedagogical strategies around this thinking. Mr. Friesen: So it would be fair to say, then, that the theory of class size caps is that it would –smaller classes lead to better educational outcomes. Is that correct? Is that accurate? Ms. Allan: Yes, absolutely. Mr.

Friesen: Continuing on on the same subject, can the minister indicate at this time how the Province's or how the department's strategy to address a class size cap in Manitoba will advance? Over how many years will the strategy be implemented? What will be the focus of the class size cap going forward and what will be the first direction? Ms. Allan : We made in –when we made the announcement, we made a commitment to do this within over the next five years, and we also tasked and asked the oversight committee that did the report cards if they would take on this challenge.

They were–the education partners that are on the oversight committee are very, very pleased with the results of the–and the work that they did for the report card. They're very pleased with that process of having everyone around a table trying to figure out and discuss how to move forward. So they asked if that committee could stay in place. So the oversight committee has taken on the challenge of providing direction to us as government in regards to how to

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1743 reduce class sizes. They had their first meeting, I believe, in December, and they had their second meeting, I believe, around January, and there's been a couple of meetings since, and we have some recommendations from them in regards to class size. They have looked at the Ontario model. The Ontario model implemented class size in 90 per cent of their classes. And they, as well, introduced a variance in regards to some classes that wouldn't be capped right at 20. In Ontario what they did was they said that classes could not be larger than 23 in some cases.

What you have is a situation where you don't want to –you may need a variance for communities that have high rates of transition, people moving in and out, maybe high populations of newcomers, or transient populations. You also may have situations where you have 21 students, and depending on what that class looks like, they may feel–the teacher and the principal may feel that that 21-student component is a better decision in regards to –rather than splitting them up. So there is a variance model in the Ontari o model. So the oversight committee has been looking at that.

We do intend to try to move forward with this whole initiative. We have committed to a class size tracker. The class size tracker will be up on school divisions' websites by September and then t hat way everyone will know what every kindergarten to grade 3 class will look like in September, and then that way we can figure–it'll be very transparent in regards to how those class sizes are being reduced as we move forward over the five years. Mr. Friesen: I'm interested to hear the minister speak about a variance, and I'm pleased to hear that they've borrowed this element of the program from other jurisdictions.

I know it has been the concern of various groups that the government's initiative and the department's initiative in this area would perhaps, if implemented in too rigid a manner, create difficulties for school divisions and for individual schools, whereby, if the number of students in a classroom was capped at 20, you could end up in situations–or you would very likely end up in situations–where you could have a class of 20 in a school, a second class of 20 and then maybe a third class with 24 students.

And I know that presented a concern to superintendents and principals from a school administration point of view. * (10:10) And I think the concern expressed was that it would result in a situation whereby perhaps students would have to be bused to other locations, or whereby there would be new capital construction required for a classroom tha t would then only have, perhaps–instead of having one class of 24, two classes of 12. So those were some of the concerns expressed, so I'm pleased to hear that there is talk of a variance.

Can the minister explain a little further what would be the –how t he variance would work specifically, and whether it would be set up in such a way whereby schools could demonstrate 90 per cent compliance with the school cap, and then maybe 10 per cent of classes over that wouldn't have to comply but they would have to do so within a prescribed period of time? Or how exactly would the variance work, and would it work with respect to a stated ratio of classes that comply and an amount that would be allowed to not comply? Ms.

Allan : I'm not exactly sure that I understand your question, so I'll try to answer it in regards to what I think you're asking, but I don't know if I'm providing you with that much more new information. I'll–we have received some of the initial thinking from the oversight committee on this, and no final decisions have been made. We have just received the oversight committee's first report in regards to what their thinking is, and we need to do some noodling on it here.

But it is –you know, the models that we've looked at –there's also a BC and Alberta mo del, which are the other two jurisdictions, but the one that we're looking at most favourably –that the oversight committee looked at most favourably –was that model where 90 per cent of the classes would be at the 20 cap throughout the province, and that there would be the possibility of having 10 per cent of those classes over that 20 cap, but not more than 23, and so that flexibility is built in.

I think it's a little too early to look at exactly what that might look like in the province, because it's still in the early stages. We have hired Tia Cumming, who is on secondment from the Louis Riel School Division, who, I know, has been and visited with Vern Reimer, because I talked to Vern at the Manitoba School Boards Association and two of the Garden Valley school trustees, and they're very, very impressed with Tia and her knowledge and her ability.

And she has met with some of the school divisions–some of the larger school divisions that are–you know, wanted someone to come out and talk to them right away, and we're trying to get a handle on exactly, you know, what those class sizes look

1744 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 like throughout the province and how to move forward. It's going to be phased in. We're going to do some phasing in, in September. That is, hopefully, our plan and our goal. So we won't be –we have to start to move quickly here because time is of the essence, but we're very excited about it. But it –and it's going to be a long-term strategic plan that we will put in place with our partners, and we're very, very pleased that they were willing to work with us on this project. Mr. Friesen: Thank you, Madam Minister, for that response.

I'm pleased to hear that you're still working at that and, like I mentioned earlier, I am pleased to hear that a variance will be part of the pla n. At this time you've indicated that no final decisions have been made. I'm just wondering what is the timeline for the implementation of the first phase of this initiative. And at what point do you think a final decision would be reached in regard to exa ctly what the criteria for the variance would look like? Ms. Allan : Well, as I indicated in my previous response, we would–we do want to start doing some phasing in, in September.

So we have to have an opportunity to have a little bit more discussion in my office about this. So, as I indicated in my earlier response, I think what we would like to do is make some final decisions within the next couple of weeks. So the five -year plan would be the phase in from, you know, 2012- 13, then '13 -14, '14 -15, '15 -16, '16-17, the final year. Mr. Friesen: Would the minister be able to advise me when the criteria for the variance has been set and notify me of what that criteria would be? Ms. Allan: Yes. Mr. Friesen: Thank you, Madam Minister, for agreeing to that.

With the –September being the target for the commencement of the implementation of this exercise, does the minister think it's a little late to be still working on the variance model? Or perhaps I should also ask: Have school divisions indicated any apprehensi on or anxiety related to the actual variance model being left this long? Ms.

Allan : Well, the beauty of this is the fact that the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents is on the oversight committee as well as the Manitoba Teachers' Society as wel l as the Manitoba School Boards Association as well as the Manitoba school business officials as well as the Manitoba Association of Parent Councils. So they are all –have the ability to –excuse me–to report back to, you know, their stakeholders and their me mbers and talk about this, and we haven't picked up any anxiety yet.

There is the superintendents and–are pretty capable of managing these kinds of issues, and quite often when–because of our growing immigration program, they deal with these kinds of issues all the time, in regards to students and classrooms and where to put them and how to manage it, and this is kind of the business they're in. So we haven't picked up any anxiety yet. I'm quite sure if I'm, you know, sitting in my office still in July and haven't heard anything, they may come knocking on my door. But we do intend to try to move as swiftly as possible with this. Mr.

Friesen: In attempting to understand the scope of the challenge that is before us, in terms of reducing classes to 20 for K to 3, can the minister indicate what the current average size of classes is for K to 3 in Manitoba? Ms. Allan : We don't have the actual average size. But perhaps you may be interested in the fact that we do know that of all the classes in the province of Manitoba, K to 3, that we are already at a 60 per cent target of under 20.

So the work ahead of us is 40 per cent of the classes, and we do know where those–we have done the analysis in regards to what school divisions, where those classes are and, of course, by September that information everyone will have because it will be up on a website for people to look at. * (10:20) Mr. Friesen: Just to clarify, then, the minister says that the information is not currently available to indicate what the average class size is in Manitoba for classrooms in K to 3, but we do know that 60 per cent of classes are already in that area from K to 3 –are already under the size of 20. Is that correct? Ms.

Allan: Twenty or under, that is correct. Mr. Friesen: In an October 26th CJOB report last fall, I seem to recall, and I have here in front o f me, some information that indicates that current average class size in the province of Manitoba was indicated at 27 students. Could the minister indicate where that number might have come from? It was publicly reported that the average size in Manitoba classrooms. Would that have been a number that would have been pulled

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1745 from the FRAME report? And if so, where would it have come from? Ms. Allan: We're unaware of that. I don't know. And that seems incredibly high to me; and I'm not sure where they would get that. I would be more than surprised if that is the case, because we know that – [interjection] Right. Oh, I see. Yes, I now have clearer information for you. That's the problem when you go from memory. We do–[interjection] Yes, I was close.

We do know –we have looked at, we do know that from the information that we have gathered from divisions, at this particular time, that we have 48.2 per cent of classes K to 3 at less than 20. And then we have another 27.9 per cent of classes that are 21 to 23. So that gives you an indication of exactly what we're – what the challenge will be, or what the challenges are, as we move forward with this initiative. Mr. Friesen: Thank you, Madam Minister, for that response. That's certainly something–a theme that I want to come back to in a little while.

But at this time I just want to ask an additional question with regard to the minister's statement that we will be beginning the implementation, or the phase-in, as early as September. Will that phase-in of the program, at this time, just for clarification, be specific to kindergarten classrooms, or will be it a phase-in across kindergarten through grade 3 classrooms? Ms. Allan : We're–there is –the plan is not to start with specifically just starting with kindergarten. We will work with school divisions, and if it's –and they will make–you know, we're working, Tia's working, with school divisions.

And if school divisions, you know, decide to do it in kindergarten and grade 1 or kindergarten and grade 2 or, you know, whatever makes the most sense in regards to what those class sizes look like. So there's not a lot of science to this. It'll depend on the numbers and what makes the most sense. And we will take that advice from the school divisions. Mr. Friesen: So would it be acc urate to say that the phase-in will be–it'll be a soft implementation in the preliminary period, and then there will be more –a more rigid implementation going forward?

I'm just trying to get a sense of what the requirement will be for school divisions mov ing forward. And additionally, I'd like to get a sense of whether school divisions are fully aware of their responsibilities and their obligations with respect to the class size cap as early of September. Are school divisions fully aware of their obligatio ns in this regard? Ms. Allan : Yes, school divisions are aware of the class size K -to-3 initiative, fully aware of it. And they've received communication from David Yeo and Tia's visiting them. They're also on the oversight committee.

You know, they're very excited about this initiative. In fact, some school divisions sent us letters saying they were ready to go before we barely had the announcement out the door. So, you know, there's a lot of excitement around this, and it's not going to be a soft implemen tation. It's going to be a planned implementation in consultation with school divisions. Mr. Friesen: Thank you for that response, Madam Minister. It wasn't quite the response I was looking for. The question I had was –are–I know that school divisions are aware of the class size cap. Indeed, I think we all are aware of the class size cap.

You only have to pick up a copy of the paper, and it's been pretty well advertised that a class size cap will be an initiative for the Department of Education. So I respect that, but, specifically, I'm wondering, are – school divisions, have they been made fully aware of their obligations with regard to the preliminary working out of this initiative? In other words, are school divisions going to be called upon to demonstrate a certain degree of compliance with this initiative as early as September and, if so, which school divisions or is it all of them, and what are the requirements in that regard? Ms.

Allan : Well, the issue –this is an issue of planning and of implementation, and there may be more planning than implementation this year. The track, or the class size tracker will be the benchmark. We do plan to have some classes moved to the cap once it's approved, once the final decision is made. So there may be more planning than implementation this year, but the following year, in 2013-2014, that'll probably–that's when it'll probably really take off because people will have a comfort level with it in their locals jurisdictions. Mr. Friesen: Thank you for that clarification, Madam Minister.

Just coming back to the minister's statement that in the K -to-3 classrooms approximately 60 per cent of the target is already under 20–at 20 or under and, so that I guess the target group is the remainder, 40 per cent.

1746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 2012 I'm wondering if we can drill down and if the minister could provide an indication of if there are school divisions, if there are regions for which the class size cap will present more of a problem based upon higher present class sizes? Are there particular school divisions or regions of Manitoba that will have a greater challenge to move towards the class size cap of 20 or under, based upon a variety of factors, but most specifically their current class size? * (10:30) Ms.

Allan : Just to clarify in regards to what I told you about the 60 per cent, the 60 per cent is in relationship to the 23 and under. So it's 48.2 per cent that is less than 20, and then in addition to the 48.2 per cent, we have another 27.9 per cent that are in the 21 to 23 range. And then we know we have 23.9 per cent of the classes, K -to-3 classes province- wide, that are in the 24–that are above that 23 – [interjection]–24 and over. And we've just received information from my officials in my department that the average class size, K to 3, whole provi nce, is 19.25.

I love there's a quarter of a kid somewhere, but–so that's the average class size, 19.25. [interjection] We've got to clarify it. Hang on. Well, this is interesting. So how we –how that number was determined is this is the average class size in relationship to the number of teachers. It's not an exact calculation, but the K -to-3 total enrolment in 2011 was 50,800 and you divide that by 2,639 K-to-3 classrooms, as reported by the divisions, and the average would be, per teacher or per classroom, 19.25 students. Mr. Matt Wiebe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Friesen: Thank you for that response.

And, Madam Minister, in that case, can't we all pat ourselves on the back and indicate that we have now met the target? Ms. Allan: No, because it's an average. The numbers and the percentages that I gave you earlier are really what–you know, those are the numbers that we're going to go by. So where that 27 came from on that CJOB, I have no idea. Mr.

Friesen: Could I just also ask the minister to indicate, in that calculation of average class size and doing that mathematics, does that indicate the number of actual in- class teachers per student, or is that calculating specialists and all kinds of teachers that might be in an administrative capacity, student services, clinicians? Would that be a total calculation of total teaching staff compared to the amount of students in the classroom, or is that actual in -class teachers? Ms. Allan : That is in -class teachers, teachers identified as the classroom teacher.

And to go back to your previous question that I forgot to answer about, you know, where are the pockets of, you know, big classes, in what school divisions, we know who they are and they're obviously school divisions that have increasing enrolment. You know, we have situations in Manitoba where we have some school divisions that have declining enrolment and a lot of those school divisions are in rural communities, but communities like Steinbach, Winkler and Morden–as the member is obviously very fam iliar with because it's his community–you have increasing enrolment because of the immigration program.

So those –you know, Seven Oaks has got, you know, lots of increased enrolment because of the immigration program. We're seeing now Brandon really take of f in regards to the immigration program in Brandon and the second line at Maple Leaf. So, you know, we know –so there's no, you know–it really is in relationship to enrolment. Mr. Friesen: And I'm glad that the minister has responded to this question and indicated, articulated that there are school divisions who will be faced with a larger challenge.

I'm also looking at a listing here in front of me that I have that's –indicates a breakdown of class sizes for school divisions. And while it's not comprehensive, it is extensive, and I noticed the same trend, that if I look at this information and reference the data with respect to Brandon School Division, I see that, according to the data I have of the breakdown per school showing the amount of grade 1 classrooms, the grade 2 classroom and grade 3 classrooms, that the number of students in those classes is an average of, you know, 22 in grade 1 and 23 in grade 3 for Brandon School Division.

In Garden Valley School Division, the numbers are much higher. In–for instance, in grade 2 I have numbers showing an average of 26 students in the class. In grade 3, 22 is the average. I haven't worked out averages for all of these numbers, but, as the minister also indicated, there are other school divisions as well that have experienced

May 25, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1747 tremendous growth for a variety of reasons, but lot of it related to new patterns of immigration, certainly in Hanover School Division and Garden Valley School Division, Brandon School Division, largely driven by labour needs there and ne w families coming to those communities, that–the point I'm making to the minister is that the challenge is not meted out equally to school divisions to meet these requirements. And I'm wondering, then, if the department and the minister will be taking a very detailed approach to trying to solve this and whether additional resources will be flowin

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-1-39c
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 1st hansardpdf 39c.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d628c966ac3e782adbebc28c45c1c967b3560096

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