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April 17, 2018

GOVERNMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Kevin Parsons, MHA for Cape St. Francis,

substitutes for Keith Hutchings, MHA for Ferryland.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John's Centre,

substitutes for Lorraine Michael, MHA for St. John's East - Quidi Vidi.

The

Committee met at 6:05 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Edmunds):

Okay, welcome everyone.

We're going to review the Estimates now for the Public Procurement Agency,

Service NL and workplace health and safety.

I'd

like to first point out that the Member for Cape St. Francis is substituting for

the Member for Ferryland, and the Member for St. John's Centre is substituting

for the Member for St. John's East - Quidi Vidi.

What

we're going to do this evening is we're going to start off reviewing the

Estimates for the Public Procurement Agency, followed by workplace health and

safety, and finally we'll get into the Estimates for Service NL.

First,

I'd like to call for a motion to adopt the minutes of the last meeting.

Moved

by the Member for Cape St. Francis.

motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

I'd like to welcome the

Members of the Government Services Committee here tonight, and the Minister for

Service NL and her staff. Before we begin, I'll ask if the department could

identify personnel.

MR. DUTTON:

Sean Dutton, I'm the interim Chief Procurement Officer with the Public

Procurement Agency, and Deputy Minister of Service NL.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Minister Sherry Gambin-Walsh.

MR. DAVIS:

Parliamentary Secretary for Service NL, Bernard Davis.

MS. WHEATON:

Roxie Wheaton, ADM, Government Service Centres.

MS. HICKEY:

Marlene Hickey, Chief Review Commissioner with the Workplace Health, Safety and

Compensation Review Division.

MS. HEARN:

Patricia Hearn, Chief Operating Officer with the Public Procurement Agency.

MS. HAYES:

Robin Hayes, Departmental Comptroller.

MS. O'NEILL:

Melony O'Neill, Director of Communications, Service NL

MS. WHITE:

Kelly White, Executive Assistant to Minister Sherry Gambin-Walsh.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you.

I would

just ask that if you are called upon to elaborate on some of the questions that

are asked, you identify your name before you actually begin answering questions.

We'll

go and do introductions for the Government Services Committee.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Kevin Parsons from the beautiful District of Cape St. Francis.

MS. HAYDEN:

Veronica Hayden, Opposition Office.

MS. ROGERS:

Gerry Rogers, and I work for the good people of St. John's Centre. Thank you so

very much for coming this evening.

MR. MORGAN:

Ivan Morgan, Researcher, NDP caucus.

MR. LANE:

Paul Lane, leader of the fourth party, Member for Mount Pearl - Southlands.

MR. FINN:

John Finn, Stephenville - Port au Port.

MR. KING:

Neil King, MHA for the historic District of Bonavista.

MS. HALEY:

Carol Anne Haley, MHA Burin - Grand Bank.

MS. PARSLEY:

Betty Parsley, Harbour Main.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you.

Once we

call the headings, I will ask the minister to give an introduction. What we'll

do is we'll go with 10-minute allocations for the Official Opposition, Third

Party and the Member for Mount Pearl - Southlands and we'll carry on, I suspect,

until we complete all the Estimates.

CLERK (Barnes):

Public Procurement Agency,

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

AN HON. MEMBER:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

Minister Gambin-Walsh.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

I'd like to make a few

comments first.

Good

evening. As Minister of Service NL and Minister Responsible for the Public

Procurement Agency, I'm pleased to appear before you to discuss the estimate

figures for these entities.

I want

to take this opportunity to thank the Members opposite and their staff for

joining us. I also want to thank the staff from Service NL, the Public

Procurement Agency and also WorkplaceNL review division for their preparation

for today's session.

Before

we get started, I wanted to highlight the fact that money allocated for leases

and vehicles has been restated in the Estimates for the Department of

Transportation and Works. In 2017-18, Service NL generated revenue of over $139

million through such functions as issuer fees, registry of deeds, and especially

transactions at Motor Registration Division. This revenue would have been

included in the general revenue of government.

Service

NL is responsible for the majority of licensing, inspection, public record

keeping and regulatory functions within government and is the primary access

point for people who need those services. Service NL undertakes hundreds of

thousands of transactions each year. These range from electrical inspections to

restaurant inspections to production of vital statistics records and the

registration of deeds.

Within

the Motor Registration Division, Service NL completes more than 1 million

transactions per year. I believe all Members here tonight will have witnessed

first-hand at some point the hard work of at least one of these divisions. I'm

sure we can all appreciate the commitment of staff to serving the people of our

province.

The

authority to carry out the department's mandate comes from more than 150

statutes and regulations, as well as standards and codes of practice. Service NL

also encompasses the Occupational Health and Safety Division, or OHS Division,

which is responsible for health and safety inspections and enforcement programs.

The OHS Division establishes, through legislation, the codes, standards and

practices for safe and healthy working conditions.

The

Office of French Services is also part of my department and provides French

language training and translation services to government. This office also

provides support to the Minister Responsible for Francophone Affairs. In

addition, through the Office of the Queen's Printer, the department provides

printing services for the provincial government and the general public.

I am

also the Minister Responsible for the Public Procurement Agency, the central

procurement unit of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. It is

responsible for the oversight of the procurement process for goods and services

on behalf of all public bodies. As of March 24, most of the new

Public Procurement Act is now in

effect, while provisions and supplier debriefs, complaints and supplier

performance come into effect on September 24.

The

WorkplaceNL review division reviews decisions of WorkplaceNL to ensure

compliance with the act, as well as regulations and policies. The division

provides vital appeal services to employers and workers, and pursues continuous

improvement in the area of client services.

department has done a significant amount of work over the past year in such

matters as changes to the Highway Traffic

Act to strengthen road safety in the province; launch a comprehensive auto

insurance review; non-binary birth certificates; changes to buildings

Registration Division, just to name a few.

Clearly, there is a significant amount of work undertaken in the areas I've

mentioned. As I want to make sure we make the most of our time in the Estimates

session, I will now turn the proceedings over to the Chair so the Members

opposite can ask their questions.

Thank

you very much.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Thank you very much, Minister.

I'm

going to have some general questions but seeing that we're going to Public

Procurement first, I have the general questions that I'm going to hold off until

we get to Service NL.

I just

want to go through the line by line first. I have a couple of questions at the

end and then I'm going to ask about our new policy and regulations that came

into effect this year. I believe they came in recently that the bill was

proclaimed and the regulations, I guess, will be online or whatever.

First,

I'm going to go to Salaries. In budget 2017 it was budgeted for $2,017,000, yet

there was only $1,606,500 that occurred, a decrease of $410,000 – why did this

happen? What was the reason for that line there, the decrease and what was

revised?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The decrease of $55,900

reflects the early completion of the original attrition management plan of

$46,800 from 2019-20 to 2018-19, as well as the reduction of $9,100 for the new

attrition fiscal target. The agency will work with HRS and Treasury Board to

determine where these savings will come from.

There

was a decrease of $410,700 to reflect the number of vacancies in 2017-18.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, so it's vacancies

there.

I just

go to Transportation and Communications there. Last year, it was budgeted for

$50,000; however, you only spent $25,000. What happened there with the decrease

of $25,000?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

That's a decrease to

reflect zero-based budgeting.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Was it?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It's a decrease to

reflect zero-based budgeting.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

On the

Supplies line, $15,100 was budgeted; however, $11,100 occurred – another

decrease of $4,000.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The decrease of $4,000

reflects less supplies needed in '17-'18 due to delayed training on the

Public Procurement Act .

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Under

Professional Services, again another decrease of $13,700 from what was budgeted

and the revised.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The decrease of $13,700,

there were less auctions in '17-'18.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Auctions?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yeah.

MS. HEARN:

If you'd like more of an

explanation on the auctions for the PPA.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes.

MS. HEARN:

The Public Procurement Agency not only acquires goods and services but we also

auction off surplus goods and services, and we manage this as well on behalf of

the core government.

Every

year – we actually have a contract with Roche Auctioneers at the moment for all

of our auctions. The Professional Services budget is to go to pay for the

auctioneering services that are acquired during that year.

This

year where you see a decrease, there were less auctions during that year, which

meant that we had to pay the auctioneering services less. What you will see year

after year is a cyclical nature in auctioneering. So the departments generally

will have surplus more on the second year of each calendar year and so next

year, you will see this auction increase again, generally speaking.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

On the

next line there, Purchased Services, another decrease of $52,000. There was

$82,200 budgeted, yet $30,000 was actually what was revised.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Again, that's to reflect

zero-based budgeting.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Obviously, we spent a little bit more money on the Property, Furnishings and

Equipment, an increase of $1,600.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Thirteen?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yup.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Okay, that reflects the

purchasing of a projector.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

I just

want to ask you an overall question. I know when we went through the legislation

for the Public Procurement Act to

come in place, we were all saying that the details are in the regulations. So

are all regulations in place now for what needed to be put in place? Because I

know at the time, this will be in regulations and that will be in regulations.

So is it there now for everyone to see what the actual regulations are?

MR. DUTTON:

The public procurement regulations have been published in the

Gazette , so that

part is complete.

The act also allows for ministerial regulations around the Procurement Advisory

Council, so that would basically set out the procedures and the terms for the

new Procurement Advisory Council to be established. They should be published

fairly soon and once that becomes public, then the minister will be seeking

nominations from public bodies to service on the Advisory Council.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, all right.

That's

all I have in Public Procurement. I can go to workers' comp now.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MS. ROGERS:

Or should we finish – yeah,

let's do Public Procurement.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, I'll let the Member go

from St. John's Centre, if she wants to finish on this.

CHAIR:

Okay, that's fine.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you very much.

I just

want to go back to one of the line items, Purchased Services. We see the

reduction of $50,000. What kinds of purchased services would that have included

and that then you didn't spend?

MR. DUTTON:

The reduced spending this year was due to some delay in procuring the electronic

notification system. So the act contemplates a new website where all the

opportunities for public bidding, for all public bodies, would be posted as well

as the information on the rules around procurement and public reporting on

procurement activity. We're working with the Office of the Chief Information

Officer and Department of Transportation and Works on that to develop a request

for proposals. We anticipate having that procurement done during the 2018-19

fiscal year.

MS. ROGERS:

So then we'll have everything up there on the website. That's the hope then to

have that up.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes, most of the requirements in the act and regulations can be fulfilled

through the existing website. The advantage of having a new web portal is that

right now a lot of public bodies outside of core government use their own

platforms.

today, to have all of the information available, we have links added to our

website for the procurement platforms for Nalcor and other public bodies. Our

intent is to have this site that will allow for all of that to be through a

single portal, and one that will also give us the capability to generate better

reports for the public on procurement activity.

Some of

the data that we'd like to collect that also the Information and Privacy

Commissioner has suggested that we should report will be things we don't collect

today but we'll be able to gather through the new web portal. So one element of

the regulations is to be proclaimed effective April 1 of next year to allow us

time to be able to procure the new system and we'll be able to satisfy that

reporting requirement.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

Back to

line 01, the Salaries, where we see there was a reduction in the $410,000 and

those were vacancies – will those vacancies be filled?

MR. DUTTON:

Yes, it's still our intent to fill the vacant positions. As of March 31, we had

four vacancies. I'm not sure if that includes the Chief Procurement Officer, so

I'm filling the position on an interim basis and once the Independent

Appointments Commission recruitment process is completed then a full-time Chief

Procurement Officer would be hired.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great. Thank you.

Back to

the regulations, so with the Procurement Advisory Council, what exactly is that,

how many members will there be, and what is their mandate?

MR. DUTTON:

Sure. The idea is that it'll be something of an advisory committee for the

minister and would be comprised of senior officials involved in procurement, not

just in core government but from other public bodies. So as you'd appreciate a

lot of the major procurement spend is actually through the health authorities,

So we'd

seek to have a representative group as well as representatives from municipal

governments to get their perspective. Today we don't have really a group where

they get together, so one of the advantages would be just to provide a community

of practice for them to share some of their best practices and solutions to

problems, to give advice to the minister on procurement policy, and also a forum

to meet with stakeholders from the business community and social enterprise to

be able to receive their feedback and input from the supplier community.

MS. ROGERS:

I haven't had an opportunity

yet to look at the regulations. Is the issue of social benefit included in the

regulations and, if so, how?

MR. DUTTON:

In terms of the act itself, it allows for the use of request for proposals

without requiring a Cabinet authority. That was a requirement of the

Public Tender Act that has been

repealed. As a result of that, then public bodies have a greater ability to use

RFPs in place of tenders. It would be through the RFPs that people would be able

to evaluate other factors besides just the lowest price compliant bid and

evaluate other factors. So there's a greater opportunity there.

well, by making all of the procurement opportunities public through a single web

portal then that information would be available to all perspective bidders,

including social enterprise to know what opportunities are there throughout

Newfoundland and Labrador to bid on.

We've

had a number of discussions with the Choices for Youth. They had a social buying

conference earlier this year. They shared with us their report and

recommendations. We're continuing to do some policy work around how to address

some of the social, economic and environmental priorities of government through

the procurement process.

We're

also involved in the federal-provincial territorial deputy heads of public works

table. It's a bit of a misnomer. It's really deputies for real property and

procurement. We've had a number of discussions there about what other provinces

and territories and the federal government are contemplating around using

procurement as the policy tool.

When it

comes to social buying and social enterprise, there are a number of social

enterprises engaged in that today. It's a fairly new policy area, so we haven't

gotten a lot of instruction from other jurisdictions on how they're doing it but

we're certainly continuing to engage with them through that process; the usual

jurisdictional scanning that we do whenever we're considering new policy

development.

MS. ROGERS:

Is there any appetite at all

within your department to look at compelling a lens of social benefit, not just

social enterprise but in terms of not just wouldn't it be nice, but to actually

compel that kind of lens applied to any bid to see where there might be social

benefit whether it's social enterprise or not.

MR. DUTTON:

Yeah. That's where the policy work is going to continue so we have an

interdepartmental committee of officials that are sharing their objectives,

besides the social enterprise.

There

are a variety of other objectives that the government wants to determine what's

the best way to proceed, including ensuring that procurement addresses the needs

of persons with disabilities, that commitments to indigenous procurement through

land claims agreements are fulfilled, women-owned enterprises having an

opportunity to bid on contracts, and some of the other sectoral work besides the

Social Enterprise Action Plan.

The

technology plan is also looking at opportunities there. So there are a lot of

really interesting policy objectives to try to address. We're just trying to

work together to see where we can find some opportunity to address that within

the scope of the agreements we have signed on internal and international trade,

and also within the framework.

It's

really an innovation I guess that the act provides that the chief procurement

officer would be following the social, economic and environmental priorities

that the Cabinet may establish. So we just need to do some more policy work to

help inform how best to address those various objectives.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Preparing for the

debate, I was so excited to see what was being done in Scotland around the whole

area of social benefit and their procurement act. I was hoping we might be able

to be as innovative and compelling in that area.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes. Well, we'll be looking at international examples as well, where there are

any examples like that that could be instructive.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Thank

you very much. I have no further questions.

Thank

you, and thank you for your great work.

CHAIR:

The Member for Mount Pearl -

Southlands.

MR. LANE:

Thank you.

couple of quick questions. The first one on two of the line items,

Transportation and Communications and Purchased Services. Minister, on both of

those the numbers went down, the revised, compared to the budget for 2017-2018.

You indicated in both cases it was zero-based budgeting is what resulted in that

number, but if you look at this year's estimate the numbers are gone back up to

where they were originally.

If you

use zero-based budgeting and brought them down, have we abandoned zero-based

budgeting and that's why they're going up? Why are both gone up this year?

MR. DUTTON:

I guess on that; no, I wouldn't say zero-based had been abandoned but it's

really just around the timing of implementation of the new framework. As I

referenced, one of the things that's taking a little bit longer has been the

procurement of an electronic notification system. We might have had some spend

on that in the year past, now we would look to have that expenditure in the year

ahead.

Secondly, around our training and information sessions to do with the

implementation of the act, we had a later date in the fiscal year for the

publication of the regulations, so we didn't start our information sessions with

public bodies until probably February. We did all of those through webinar, so

it was a lesser cost. We had anticipated maybe having to do more travel

associated.

As the

minister mentioned at the start, sections 12 and 13 of the act to do with

supplier performance and the complaints process and supplier meetings after

procurements, they come into effect six months later because we needed the

additional time to work with public bodies on how they might implement those

processes. It's a little bit more different from the other changes we're doing

because we're talking about, especially on supplier performance, a process by

which if a vendor has not been compliant on meeting the terms of their contract

or multiple contracts, there's the ability to suspend them from being able to

bid on future opportunities with that public body.

That's

a very significant decision to make, not to be made lightly, and that's an

ability any municipality or public body would have. So we want to make sure

we've worked closely with them to ensure they all have good processes in place

around that in the event they need to use that authority.

We'll

probably have more sessions outside of town or through the webinar than we

would've had this year. That's why the expenditure's a little bit higher. We may

be able to find more savings in the following year once we've got the framework

fully implemented.

MR. LANE:

Okay. Thank you for that.

It's

pretty funny, actually. The last question I had was around contractor

performance and would there be anything in the regulations, because I know it's

an issue particularly with roadwork and stuff like that in municipalities where

you get a contractor who does a real shoddy job; yet, you're forced to take

their bid again next year when you've had two or three bad experiences.

MR. DUTTON:

Mm-hmm.

MR. LANE:

Municipalities would argue you should be able to just take them off the list,

say: Sorry, we're not interested in doing business – but they were forced to do

it anyway.

MR. DUTTON:

Yeah.

MR. LANE:

It was interesting that the example you gave was the exact question I had.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MR. LANE:

So I'm done.

Thank

you. I'm glad to see you're doing that, by the way. Good.

MR. DUTTON:

Okay.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Okay. So we'll recall 1.1.01.

CLERK:

Shall it carry?

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CLERK:

The totals.

CHAIR: Shall

the total carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Carried.

motion, Public Procurement Agency, total heads, carried.

CHAIR:

Shall I report the Estimates

of the Public Procurement Agency carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Carried.

Okay.

Thank you.

Now

we're going to move to Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Review. I'll

ask the minister if she would like to have some opening remarks –

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

(Inaudible.)

CLERK:

4.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 4.1.01 carry?

The

hon. the Member for

Cape St. Francis.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Just a couple of line items here. I wonder, can you explain the variance on the

salary line?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The increase of $57,700 reflects new funding for an executive administrative

support position. It's fully funded by WorkplaceNL.

MR. K. PARSONS:

What's it called again?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

A fully funded executive administrative support position, and that's funded by

WorkplaceNL.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

You had a decrease of $13,091 from what you budgeted last year to the revised.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The decrease reflects vacancies for a portion of the fiscal year.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Down to Professional Services, there's a difference of what you budgeted and

revised of $49,000. Can you explain that?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

That reflects the vacant review commissioners for part of the fiscal year.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

You may be able to tell me that it's somewhere else or whatever happened. When

we did last year's budget, the budget line for Purchased Services in the budget

book of last year was $163,400, yet this year it shows the budget was $31,400.

There's a difference there of $132,000.

Was there something moved or something happened here that changed that?

MS. HICKEY:

The difference is the rental costs have been moved for the space, leased space,

into Transportation and Works. It's been removed from our budget.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

I have some general questions that I'd like to ask now too. How are you doing

with the review commissioners? Are there any vacancies? What are the numbers

with the review commissioners? Are you to par? I know we had some vacancies

there also.

MS. HICKEY:

We currently have five active review commissioners, with two vacancies.

MR. K. PARSONS:

How many appeals are in the system right now?

MS. HICKEY:

Currently there are 164 applications to be heard.

MR. K. PARSONS:

How many are actually waiting this time now for hearings?

MS. HICKEY:

That is the number waiting for hearings.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Waiting for hearings is 164.

MS. HICKEY:

Uh-huh.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Wow!

always look at timelines – I know there were some timelines we had to bring in

here. So if a worker is filing for an appeal today, how long can he expect to

wait before he could have a hearing?

MS. HICKEY:

A hearing will take between six to eight months.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Six to eight months. Wow!

Obviously, there's a huge backlog on the hearing process.

I know,

Minister, we came in the House one day and we asked some questions on it. The

norm that you were looking at to doing this was within 60 days. Is that what you

wanted –?

MS. HICKEY:

Sorry, I didn't hear you.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I know that there was a goal

that was set to have hearings heard within 60 days.

MS. HICKEY:

The legislation, actually, which was created in 1994, put a 60-day turnaround

time on the applications. Currently, that's not been met. Historically, in the

time since then, we've actually never met that target.

We've

been working to reduce the actual period of time that we have some control over.

The period of time from an application to a hearing takes into account the

availability of the parties to come in for a hearing. Oftentimes, when injured

workers or employers are represented, those representatives are not always

available. For example, if it's a union representative, they may be caught up in

union negotiations and things like that. Their workload has an impact on our

ability to advance the hearing schedule.

attempt to

schedule at least 25 hearings a month. With 25 hearings scheduled a

month, we typically have six to eight requests for postponement. It takes quite

a while for the parties to get themselves ready for a hearing and the Review

Division has no control over that period of time.

Once

the hearing has been completed we attempt to have the decision, in as many cases

as we can, finalized within 60 days from the date of the hearing.

MR. K. PARSONS:

With 164 applications in

right now and you're doing 25 a month, how many applications are you actually

getting – is it going up? Are we to a point that we have to do something here?

At 164, next month it will be 174 that this is going to increase – is this what

is happening?

MS. HICKEY:

What happened in January of 2017: we had three new review commissioners

appointed. It takes some time to have those folks trained. Following the

training, one of those review commissioners resigned. We then, in July, had four

more review commissioners appointed and two of those individuals have since

resigned.

So the

recruitment and retention of review commissioners also impacts our ability to

advance the caseload to hearing. We are already working with the minister on

solutions for that. We are continuing to work with the IAC. They have the

profile up online on a continuous basis seeking applications for part-time and

full-time review commissioner positions, whatever becomes available. It's an

ongoing process.

Historically, the recruitment and retention of review commissioners has always

been challenging. It is very difficult work, it's very time consuming and it

brings with it its own challenges when you are an individual who has never been

exposed to this kind of work before. It's very difficult. I think perhaps you

yourself have an appreciation for that having been a representative for injured

workers in the past yourself.

So the

review commissioners with a panel of seven – which is what the legislation

allows us to have – a full panel, we can manage to do quite well with the cases.

But it does take some time to get those review commissioners trained and up to a

level where they can operate to the capacity that we would like, which would be

six to eight applications per month. The review commissioners that came on in

July, at this point, they're doing two to four applications a month.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So when do you expect a

review commissioner to come up to speed and be able to do six –?

MS. HICKEY:

They're getting there right now. The review commissioners that we have now,

they're getting there. I think they started doing a full slate of hearings –

they started hearings in October and by January I think they're up to four. And

it's an intimidating process for someone who hasn't had the exposure or the

familiarity.

So the

Review Division provides a 10-day, in-house training program. It's a very

intensive training program and it takes us several months to deliver the

programming, simply because of the nature of the subject matter. If we roll out

10 days one after another – the candidates – the review commissioners become

very overwhelmed, as you can imagine. Ensuring that there is a quality decision

at the end of the day that represents what the act directs, that's our priority

and that takes some time.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

The

five that we have there now, how many of those are full time? Are they all five

full-time commissioners?

MS. HICKEY:

Myself, I'm a full-time

commissioner and we have one other full-time review commissioner.

MR. K. PARSONS:

The other three are

part-time commissioners?

MS. HICKEY:

Part time.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. Is there any move,

Minister, to try to get some more full-time commissioners in place for the

Review Division?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We are reviewing that.

We're looking it over and we're trying to determine the best practice to move

forward.

Marlene alluded to, trying to secure and keep commissioners has been a

challenge, so we're also taking a look at that. Perhaps it's the profile of the

individuals that we attract or it could be the workload, it could be the cases,

but we are reviewing the situation to try to determine what's the best way to

secure and keep commissioners.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Obviously, Minister, there's

a huge problem there when you see that there are 164 applications in the system

just waiting to get a hearing and we're only going to do 25 a month. This is

only going to get snowballed and get worse and worse if we don't do something

about it, obviously. With two full-time ones, three part-time ones and two

vacancies there right now it looks like we need to do a bit of work on this.

Ms.

Hickey, do you have any suggestions to how we can improve this system, how we

can get the number of people – it's a huge issue actually. I've brought it up in

the House before and I had calls from a constituent of mine saying the period of

time they had to wait before. These numbers are after getting a lot higher than

what they were even when I asked it in the House. Is there some solution down

there?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Marlene has put forward

some suggestions and we're reviewing them.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

The Member for St. John's

Centre.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Chair.

question is: What do you think is needed, then, in order to be able to recruit

more and retain the commissioners?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We need the full

complement of seven. That's what we need. As you've heard –

MS. ROGERS:

Seven full time, is it?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No, it's seven

commissioners in total. There are two full-time right now and five part-time. We

need that full complement. We haven't been able to secure that full complement

and keep it stagnant for a period of time. That's what we're working at, trying

to determine exactly who we need to secure. Individuals are coming in and

realizing the workload and are resigning again.

MS. ROGERS:

The full complement, then,

if every position was filled would be two full-time and five part-time, is it,

not seven full-time?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Correct.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

What is

the pay scale like for the commissioners?

MS. HICKEY:

The current full-time review

commissioner has a salary of $90,000. Part-time review commissioners are paid at

$750 per case with an annual retainer stipend of $4,000.

MS. ROGERS:

Are they predominately

lawyers who do it?

MS. HICKEY:

We've had a mix of

applicants. One might think that having all lawyers would be a very good thing

and one might think having non-lawyers is a good thing. In our experience, I

have found that it's really the experience base of the individual who's coming

forward and the background they have that presents as something as transferable

skills that we can work with.

But the

reasons for the recruitment and retention are really multifactorial, it's

everything. It's the nature of the individual. Are they retired, what their

expectations are, what the system is paying and what it can afford to pay.

There's really no simplistic answer like it's this or it's that. There are many

pieces to the retention and recruitment of review commissioners. Again, I can't

state enough – and I know everybody would say that they have a difficult job –

this is a difficult job and it's very important that the right people are in

these positions.

As soon

as we get the training done – I don't mean to go on, but when we start training

we do advise these folks upfront that this is not an appointment to a board

where someone prepares an agenda and you have a binder of items that you're

going to review. It's not like that. It's reviewing a lot of documentation, it's

preparing for a hearing, it's being available for a hearing and it's a lot of

work.

It's

judicial writing and that's very challenging if you do not have writing

experience. Some review commissioners upfront will say: I don't know if this

work is for me. As a result, we have seen either partway through the training or

at the end of training some resignations coming in.

MS. ROGERS:

That must be difficult then,

when you invest that time in someone and just feel we're going to be okay. That

must be tough.

MS. HICKEY:

It's disappointing because

as a division we try to ensure that they are aware, before they accept the

position, of what it is they will be required to do. It seems like no matter how

much I chat with them and say this is what it is and so on, they say, oh yeah, I

can do that, I've done that before.

MS. ROGERS:

Can't be that bad.

MS. HICKEY:

They're very positive but it doesn't always work out. Sometimes it does but not

always.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

other question is – because this is not a portfolio that I'm very familiar with

– where the act requires that a decision on a worker's appeal be made within 60

days of the application. That's from the time of application to the culmination

of the case, the 60 days. What we're seeing now is six to eight months. Again,

what you've identified is that's multifaceted as well.

MS. HICKEY:

Yes, it is.

MS. ROGERS:

But certainly the shortage of commissioners would be part of that.

Thank

you.

I have

no further questions. Thank you very much.

CHAIR:

The Member for Mount Pearl - Southlands.

MR. LANE:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not

going to belabour it but I've appeared numerous times at the review commission

on behalf of constituents of mine. I'm sure, as Ms. Hickey says, there are times

when people – whether the employer delays or whatever or the employee says I

can't make it. Those things happen. I appreciate that.

But I

can tell you categorically that everyone I've represented, there was only me and

that individual there. No one from the employer bothered to show up. There was

no one from the Commission; it was just two of us and a commissioner in every

case I've been to. I'm not saying there wouldn't be cases that employers would

show up, but it was just two of us and, yet, it was still anywhere from six

months to a year – somewhere between there – from the time that we put in the

application to the time that person actually got to have their case heard. Then

you had to wait another month or whatever to get a decision, which is fair

enough.

I think

it's important to note the problem goes well beyond just simply people

cancelling appointments; I can't make it or whatever. Like I said, in my case –

several cases – that wasn't the case and yet they're still waiting. It is one

thing if somebody is waiting to get a decision on something that may be somewhat

minor in nature – whether it was a PFI or whatever – but if somebody is

literally with no income because they were cut off workers' comp and now they're

waiting for months and they have no income, it's very dire, in some cases, to

get those decisions.

It is a

problem. I've been bringing this up now for at least four or five years at

Estimates with different governments, different ministers. It's always been over

100 backlogged or more, so it's not like a new problem. I don't know what the

answers are. It would seem to me that there are seven commissioners we're

allowed to have. I don't think it says in the legislation five temporary and two

permanent. I think it says seven commissioners, if I'm not mistaken. So that's a

choice being made by the department or by the division to determine it's going

to be five part-time. There's nothing to stop the division, as far as I

understand, to say tomorrow: No, we're going to have seven full-time permanent

commissioners.

Now,

there's a cost to that, obviously, but then again it's supposed to be put in

place for injured workers. There's a very healthy injury fund, it's not costing

the government anything. I know it costs employers, we got to be cognizant for

that, but it's 100 per cent employer funded and if that's what's needed to

protect workers then that's what's needed to protect workers. I'm glad to hear

you're looking into it. To my mind, the solution needs to be more commissioners

and they need to be permanent commissioners.

Obviously, if you're dealing with part-time people and they're semi-retired,

then you're dealing with their schedules, and make no wonder you can't get cases

through. They probably, after a while, say: Well, b'y, you're going to have to

get more cases through than that. They say: Well, b'y, I'm retired, I want to go

down South for a couple of months, I haven't got time for this, I quit. I'm sure

those types of things happen.

Whereas, if you took somebody who was maybe a younger person and they chose that

as a career, so to speak, and that's their full-time job, well then that's their

job. They would be available, they would be trained and they would move forward.

I think that's where you need to go.

Anyway,

it's not really a question, more of a statement, but I'm done.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Okay.

The

hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. K. PARSONS:

One question and it's about

the training, Marlene. When you said about the training: Are they getting paid

for the training that they do? Is that part of payment? How does that work?

MS. HICKEY:

Yes, they get paid. They don't get paid the $750. Review Commissioners get paid

according to the rates of remuneration for agencies, boards and commissions. So

I think, one day of training is $465 or something like that. So that's the basis

on which they're paid.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. So you said it's about 10-days training?

MS. HICKEY:

Yes, 10-days training.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. That's all I have on that section.

CHAIR:

Okay, we'll recall 4.1.01.

MS. ROGERS:

Sorry, Mr. Chair, can I just

ask another question? It's about presumptive PTSD.

We know

that the issue of presumptive PTSD diagnosis for first responders remains

unaddressed in this province. I'm just wondering where that is?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yeah, I spoke on that

earlier today, actually. We're doing consultations; they're open until the end

of May – PTSI and PTSD injuries. We recently met with retired RCMP officer, Boyd

Merrill. He gave a 90-minute presentation to about 15 of the individuals who

will be engaged in this work. We will be consulting with the Federation of

Labour and Employers' Council.

We're

moving right ahead with this piece of work.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

December, last year, the department announced the beginning of consultations on

the Real Estate Trading Act . Can we

get an update on how that's proceeding?

MR. DUTTON:

This is not related to the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Review

Division.

MS. ROGERS:

Oh, sorry.

MR. DUTTON:

Would you like us to come back to that?

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, absolutely.

Okay,

great.

CHAIR:

Anymore, Gerry?

MS. ROGERS:

No, I'm good. That's it.

Thank

you very much.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I just have one question

because I was going to ask about the PTSD on another

section also, but what

other consultations are you having? You mentioned Mr. Boyd Merrill. Are you

meeting with people like the RNC, the firefighters' association and different

groups that have concerns? What other consultations are you having with groups

that are concerned about this?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The process is open

right now.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

People can submit until

May 31.

As the

minister, I chose to meet with Boyd and asked him to come in and present.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The opportunity is there

if there are others who wish to reach out to us who want to come in and present,

but a significant number of people are putting forward written submissions.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. I know one person in

particular, the Leader of our Party, who has already submitted also. He's

putting forward a submission also.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

He's put forward a

submission (inaudible); a detailed submission.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. All right.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Okay.

CLERK:

4.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 4.1.01 carry?

All

those in favour, ‘aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Carried.

motion, subhead 4.1.01 carried.

motion, Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Review, total heads, carried.

CLERK:

1.1.01 through 3.3.03 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 through 3.3.03

carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Carried.

CLERK:

No, we have to debate –

that's the entire department.

CHAIR:

Oh.

Okay,

now we'll go to Service Newfoundland and Labrador.

Again,

I ask the minister if she would like to have some opening remarks.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

I'm good.

CHAIR:

Okay.

We'll

go to the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I'm going to go back,

Minister, to just some general questions that I always have when we start off

the Estimates.

First

of all, can you provide a copy of your binder to us?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Okay.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. No problem there.

Are

there any errors in your Estimates in your binder, do you know, that you can you

tell us?

MR. DUTTON:

Not that we are aware.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Not that you are aware,

because we had a couple of major ones last night that we found while we were

going through it.

How

many people are employed in the department today?

MR. DUTTON:

We have in the Salary

Details there, it lists 446 positions filled as of March 31.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Can you

tell me how many retirements you had in your department?

MR. DUTTON:

How many retirements?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah.

MR. DUTTON:

In the past year, not

offhand.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Have

you had any layoffs or terminations?

MR. DUTTON:

No, we've had some

adjustments in the budget. We had a sunsetting of funding. It was temporary

funding for the verification of the documents in the Registry of Deeds, so that

came to an end at the end of March, but there was some vacancies and other

employees who were impacted, either bumped into other positions or managed to

find other temporary employment in the public service. I don't think anyone left

as a consequence of that.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

How

many new hires have you had in the department?

MR. DUTTON:

New hires? For what time

period?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Last year.

MR. DUTTON:

I don't know that we'd have

that figure right offhand either, but we can get it for you.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Sure, I'd like to have it.

MR. DUTTON:

So that's new hires during

the 2017-18 fiscal year?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes, also, you can check on

the retirements.

MR. DUTTON:

And the number of

retirements.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Do you have any idea how

many 13 weekers are in the department?

MR. DUTTON:

Not offhand.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. DUTTON:

We do use them fairly often because it takes a long time to do recruitments and

we have a lot of front-line services where people expect that we're not going to

close offices when people retire or resign.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah, I have no problem with

that.

I know

in your department there are a lot of vacancies. What's your intent to do with

vacancies? Are some of these positions being eliminated? In a vacancy, are you

eliminating some positions because there are vacancies from year to year? Are

there many vacancies and are any of these vacancies being eliminated?

MR. DUTTON:

Well, I think as of the end

of March, we had about 29 vacant – what we would classify as – funded positions

that we're still intending to fill.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah.

MR. DUTTON:

Certainly, we've had to achieve attrition targets since

Budget 2015 , there were targets for

each year over a five-year period, in addition to some additional attrition as a

result of Budget 2018. That's being

done without impacting individuals, so we're looking at the vacancies to

determine where we can achieve the savings each year.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

That

was my next question on attrition. I was just wondering if the department was

following the government plan for attrition and how many positions are we

looking at that went through attrition?

MR. DUTTON:

Again, there wouldn't have been individuals impacted as a result because we've

looked at the vacancies as a means to achieve it. I don't recall if we have the

exact target. Go ahead with the number. What was the number for this year?

MS. HICKEY:

For this year? The dollar number for

this year?

MR. DUTTON:

Yeah.

MS. HICKEY:

$125,300.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. DUTTON:

So we've had to go through the plan in that fashion, and basically what we

looked at for doing our salary plan for this year was to look at all of the

positions that were currently filled and determining what the need was for that,

looking at what vacancies were left over and the difference in the salary plan

to figure out which of those positions we could fill as a priority. So that may

shift over time as people leave and maybe a more high-priority position may move

up on the list in terms of those that we'd have to fill on a priority basis.

we're really trying to focus our recruitments on things like highway enforcement

officers, occupational health and safety and other sort of front-line,

safety-oriented positions, as well as in the area of building plan review where

we have a lot of demands on the department for going through building plans for

MR. K. PARSONS:

I have some questions in those when we get to those departments, and just ask

some general questions also.

MR. DUTTON:

Sure.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, I'm just going to go to the Minister's Office now,

section 1.1.01.

On the

Transportation and Communications line we see a decrease of $31,500. Perhaps you

can explain that.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The decrease of $31,500 is a reflection of the right-sizing under the zero-based

budgeting from '18-'19 as the previous minister was from Labrador.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Professional Services, I know the revised last year was $9,600. There was

nothing budgeted. And there's nothing budgeted for this year. Can you explain

that?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

So the increase of $9,600 is reflective of the establishment of a blind trust

for the previous minister.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

That's

it on

section 1.1.01. I'd like to go to

section 1.2.01, Executive Support. On

the first line, the Salaries, perhaps you can explain the variance on this.

MR. DUTTON:

Salaries, in terms of the revised figure, there was an increase expenditure of

$305,100. It was reflective of the salary continuance for the former deputy

minister which ran until August, and the secretary to the deputy minister, as

well as a new executive director position was added in September. That was

offset by a temporary vacancy in the secretary to the deputy minister position.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Just on

Employee Benefits, last year it was budgeted at $2,000, then it was revised at

$23,200 and now it's back to $2,900. Perhaps you can explain that also.

MR. DUTTON:

The increased revised figure reflected the workers' compensation costs for me.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, for you.

The

next one, just on Professional Services, can you explain there also? There was

$19,500 in your budget last year; however, there's nothing on the revised and

there's nothing again this year.

MR. DUTTON:

Professional Services would have been for consulting services. We didn't require

any, so for zero-based budgeting we didn't request any funding for this year.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, and there's no funding

requested.

I'll go

to the

section General Administrations, French Language. Last year this

section

was Administrative Support and that's probably moved to another division – is

that what is happening there?

MR. DUTTON:

Are you looking at 1.2.02?

MR. K. PARSONS:

I am looking at 1.2.02. In

last year's this

section was called Administrative Support, but it's not showing

up anywhere in 2018. I'm just wondering what happened to the division or

whatever.

MR. DUTTON:

I think that last year that may have been capital funding for vehicles, if I'm

not mistaken.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. DUTTON:

That's been re-profiled into

Transportation and Works. French Language Services was only moved to Service NL

in February of last year. So where it was at the end of the year, they added it

to the end of the Estimates book. It's a part of the Executive Support Branch,

so for this year it's been restated towards the front of the book.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

I know

there's a decrease of $154,300. Can you give me the reasons for the salary line

– give me the variance?

MR. DUTTON:

Sure.

We're

at a point where we have a five-year agreement for French Language Services with

process of negotiating a new five-year agreement. In reviewing the expenditures

in the past years we also – it's a 50/50 agreement, but over the last number of

years the provincial government had been spending more than the 50 per cent

required to match the federal expenditure.

The

negotiations were ongoing and remain so. We're still hopeful of securing an

increase in the federal funding, which is $350,000. Part of our matching funds

is also in the Centre for Learning and Development; we do the French language

training, so that's part of Human Resource Secretariat. We also include in our

matching funds grants that other departments may do for projects in francophone

communities.

So this

is reflective of having sufficient funding throughout the budget to match our 50

per cent, and negotiations are still ongoing to hopefully increase the $350,000

we're receiving today. We've made our argument for additional funding and if

we're successful in negotiating an increase, which we haven't had in this for

quite a number of years, then the salary vote would be adjusted in the out-years

as a result.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So what does this do for

positions, if you have salary positions that you – you normally have $350,000

and now you're down to $192,000, what does that do?

MR. DUTTON:

We have four people that work in the Office of French Services today; they've

all been extended to the end of the fiscal year, and we've identified some other

savings throughout the department to cover the funding in the event that we're

unsuccessful in achieving the additional federal funds.

So one

of the things which we've been working actively on is conversion to email

notification to our customers on their driver's licence and motor registration

renewals. We'll be notifying people by email instead of by letter, and that's

going to have a significant savings in motor registration that we can re-profile

to help address other salary shortfalls.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I have some questions on

that also.

Okay,

so you want to go to –

CHAIR:

The Member for St. John's

Centre.

MS. ROGERS:

So have we seen a diminished

– I don't quite like that word. Have the services been decreased somewhat

through French Language Services? Have they been changed at all?

MR. DUTTON:

No, in fact I think in the past year we've probably had more success than ever.

We've been translating more documents on our website and forms, particularly

since they've come into Service NL, and we have such a service focus. We really

focus on, initially, since they came to the department, where we could enhance

francophone services at Service NL, the forms for Vital Statistics and Motor

Registration in particular. The minister had an announcement on that with the

Minister of Francophone Affairs a few months ago.

We have

a service pilot we're doing in Motor Registration in Mount Pearl for a

francophone service navigator, to help people provide services in French. We

signed a new agreement with the Government of Quebec to support cultural

programming in francophone communities. We've really had a very successful

approach. The team was nominated for a Public Service Award of Excellence last

year and they're going to continue to contribute to the public service for some

time to come.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Is it through this

department, through this program, that French language training for employees is

delivered?

MR. DUTTON:

The French language training is through the Centre for Learning and Development.

When the restructuring occurred last February that remained in Human Resource

Secretariat, but the four positions came to our department.

They

include providing translation services for the government, as well as

interacting with the francophone community on their priorities and providing

support to the Minister Responsible for Francophone Affairs, who participates in

federal-provincial-territorial dialogue and administering both the

federal-provincial agreement and the Newfoundland and Labrador-Quebec agreement.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Thank you.

I have

no further questions on this section. Are we wanting to –?

CHAIR:

No, carry on.

MS. ROGERS:

Go on to the next?

CHAIR:

Yeah.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Consumer and Commercial Affairs, on the salary line we see that there was an

increase in a revised budget for 2017-18 by almost $100,000.

MR. DUTTON:

Just on the expenditure, the revised number in '17-'18 was an increase of

$95,300. It was reflective of unanticipated resource requirements. In 2018-19

there's an increase over the budgeted amount but a little bit less.

still anticipate needing all of those positions, but there's one position in

Gander that's currently vacant. We're going through the recruitment process, so

we knew for the first period of the fiscal year we wouldn't be paying that

individual until they're hired. That's the reason for the difference.

MS. ROGERS:

What was that position? What would that person be doing?

MR. DUTTON:

It's a Residential Tenancies officer in Gander.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

How is

that going, the mediation of residential landlord and tenant complaints?

MR. DUTTON:

They're very busy. Their caseload has increased each year, so we're working hard

to address all of those requirements. It's part of why we are working to fill

the position in Gander, to make sure that we keep up with the caseload.

MS. ROGERS:

Why are the caseloads

increasing? What's the problem?

MR. DUTTON:

It's just around the number of disputes. As time goes on, issues become more

complex and more – cases are going to the process, so there has been an increase

year over year in hearings.

MS. ROGERS:

Is there a trend in the

increase of types of disputes or …?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

As we move forward with

the updates to the Residential Tenancies Act, I anticipate seeing a decrease.

You can look forward to that hopefully coming into the House of Assembly really

soon.

MS. ROGERS:

We're going to see the

renewed Residential Tenancies Act coming to the House in – soon.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Soon.

MS. ROGERS:

Great.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

there any backlog at all in complaints in around Consumer Affairs?

MR. DUTTON:

Not that I'm aware. One of the things we've done as a department recently, as

part of The Way Forward , is

publishing our service standard. We've done that for the Government Services

Branch and we'll be doing that for the Regulatory Affairs Branch in the year

ahead.

But no,

overall, this area deals not just with residential tenancies but also lotteries,

licensing, the regulation of the security guards and just general consumer

complaints around the administration of the

Consumer Protection and Business

Practices Act . It's a very active division.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

The

minister's mandate letter – I'm substituting for someone here so you'll have to

excuse me – states the minister is to establish “an online searchable database

to alert consumers of bad business practices ….” It does not appear to be

online. Do we have an update on that?

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

internal review was completed for the existing disclosure methods at Service NL.

That includes the consumer alerts and advisories; we did one on bitcoin blue a

little while ago as one example. They generally relate to things around illegal

investment activity, mortgage brokering and real estate licences. When

Occupational Health and Safety lays a charge, typically there's a public

advisory to alert the public to that.

We've

completed a review of that. We're working with the Office of the Chief

Information Officer on a consumer notification webpage for consumer alerts.

That's something we'll be actively working on in the year ahead.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, so we should expect to

see something within this year, is that it?

MR. DUTTON:

That's our hope, yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Also,

does the department have a guideline to what constitutes a bad business

practice?

MR. DUTTON:

Well, again, it crosses over multiple areas. The

Consumer Protection and Business

Practices Act provide a lot of guidance in this area. A lot of the other

areas under Financial Services Regulation are applicable as well. When we look

at things like the regulation of securities, insurance, prepaid funerals and

other financial services – they would be things within the scope of that as

well.

As I

mentioned, Occupational Health and Safety interpreting it broadly, that we do a

lot of inspections. Occasionally, there are orders and then we sometimes get the

extreme of having to lay a charge in more severe circumstances. There's a pretty

broad scope beyond just within the Consumer Affairs Division.

MS. ROGERS:

Payday loan services: have

we seen more complaints in that area?

MR. DUTTON:

On payday loans we've passed the amendments to the act. Regulations have been

drafted which allowed for the government to request an exemption from the

Criminal Code to allow us to regulate

in this area. They're going through their review process.

We had

hoped to have an answer from the federal government by now, but the last we were

told the earliest we would hear about that would be within the next month or so.

Once we get the

section 347 exemption formally approved, then we would proceed

to have the act amendments proclaimed and we'd be in the position to regulate

that activity.

The

Consumer Affairs Division has been tasked with administration of that. They're

working on the development of all the various forms and whatnot that would be

required to administer that. The act allows for a lot of the documents to be

done electronically, so we're hoping to do that in a way that allows for more

sort of digital retention of records, to be more cost effective for the

providers and simpler for the consumers themselves who might avail of that

service.

MS. ROGERS:

Are there any stats

available at all as to whether or not there's been an increase in the use of

payday loans, whether there's been an increase in consumer complaints around

that area, anything like that?

MR. DUTTON:

I'm aware that there are some lenders who advertise that they are offering

payday loans. The issue was that there was a decision a number of years ago that

the government decided they weren't going to regulate in this area, in 2010.

They

pursued investigations and there was a determination that they couldn't lay a

charge under the Criminal Code , so it

was very difficult to enforce. That was one of the factors that informed the

government to move to legislate in this area. The feedback we had from the

consumer groups was that it was better that it be regulated and then people

could have somewhere to go from government, if they had complaints at that

point, but until the exemption is approved and the act is proclaimed, then we're

not in a place to be able to deal with that.

Once it

happens, then we'll make information available to the public on their rights.

There are requirements in the agreements to ensure that people are providing

informed consent. They'll have 48 hours to back out of an agreement without

notice.

MS. ROGERS:

Great.

MR. DUTTON:

We've got a lot of protections in there, learning from what other provinces and

territories have done to make sure we have an effective regulatory scheme of

things.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Thank

you very much.

CHAIR:

The hon. the Member for Cape

St. Francis.

I just

want to stay on this section; a couple of general questions that I do have. I

just want to go back to the online searchable data because it was in both

mandate letters in 2015 and 2017 for the minister's mandate letters, I know you

said soon, but is there a date or some time that you're going to be looking at

this because it's been a couple of years now, three since this has been talked

about? I'm just wondering when it's going to come.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes, well, I think that government had a four-year plan. That's probably the

right answer, but as I mentioned earlier, we are looking to have a website

developed. We have to engage with the Office of the Chief Information Officer so

these things take time.

Our

objective is to have that completed this year, so I won't have to answer that

question next year I don't think.

MR. K. PARSONS:

We get calls in our office

all the time and people are wondering where you go. Is there any registry out

there? I got ripped off today.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

It's a common thing and it

seems like it's happening more and more. I know I've been around for a while.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I've seen it in my office in

the last number of months, the most I've ever seen it. I think it's a very

important piece of legislation that we should have in place and I think the

sooner the better.

MR. DUTTON:

Certainly.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I know it's a four-year plan

but we have a lot of people out there who feel like they're getting ripped off.

It's very important that people would be able to have a database to be able to

go and say: Well, that person is in there, he ripped – do you know what I mean?

So people can see. It's very important.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes, and we are working on it.

I would

say that, again, we need to advise the public, we're putting out advisories and

trying to draw the public's attention to illegal investment schemes and that

sort of thing.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah.

MR. DUTTON:

I would also note

that there are other sources of information like the Better Business Bureau that

are useful for people to consult. They don't have the same physical presence

that they used to have but they do still have a staff person and a website with

their own information.

In the

meantime, Consumer Affairs staff are available to take calls. We get a fair

number of calls during the year around those types of complaints and we have

staff to help them navigate the system. Some of them come in things that are

federally regulated, like banking or what have you. So sometimes you just have

to help steer the people to the right place.

We do

hear from Consumer Affairs staff that sometimes when they get the call, it's

been passed through different departments, and recognizing the challenge you

just described that it's difficult for people to navigate the system sometimes

to see where they can find their assistance and have their rights addressed.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I have put people on to the Better Business Bureau but it doesn't seem to have

the same – I don't know if they've got the same information or they're available

like they used to be one time. So it seems like there's an issue there with that

also.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes, I think that probably also informed the direction of the government to fill

that space because they did have a larger office. I think they still have one

individual based here. The person we met with was based in Halifax, so they

don't get over as often in terms of having a physical presence in the province.

MR. K. PARSONS:

It's not like it was seven or eight years ago.

Also in

the mandate letter that the minister be directed to review legislation to do a

jurisdictional review of the province doing different – to ensure in

Newfoundland and Labrador we're protected. Is there any progress made on that,

with the jurisdictional review that you were going to do to protect us against

different business deals in other jurisdictions?

MR. DUTTON:

Well, I guess one of the first things that was done on that was the payday loans

legislation that we just were speaking about. That was certainly an area that

most other jurisdictions had decided to legislate in and it was one that we were

looking at very closely.

We've

made other enhancements to things like – they're more modest amendments like the

Prepaid Funerals Services Act and

there's a bill on pension regulation that we've discussed, that's had first

reading.

we're continuing to do all of that work. We have a legislative review policy in

the department so we go through all of our legislation, and as the minister

mentioned, it's quite a significant volume.

MR. K. PARSONS:

But are you looking at other jurisdictions?

MR. DUTTON:

Pardon?

MR. K. PARSONS:

In the mandate letter it says to look at other jurisdictions to do the review.

So is there a review being done at jurisdictions right across the country?

MR. DUTTON:

That's part of what we do for any of our legislative proposals is to do the

jurisdictional scan. It's a key component of that work.

Being a

participant in federal-provincial-territorial tables has been a real advantage

for that, as a smaller jurisdiction, because we don't have the same staff

resources as an Ontario or a Quebec but you have the ability to learn from their

experiences and adapt from them.

So we

have staff at some of those meetings, even this week, to help learn more about

how they are regulating in a variety of areas.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. I'm going to go to

section 2.1.02, Financial Services.

I only

have one question on the line. I wonder, can you explain to me the variances on

the salary line?

MR. DUTTON:

I'm sorry, which line?

MR. K. PARSONS:

It's Salaries.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

It's

section 2.1.02.

MR. DUTTON:

Yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

There is a decrease of

$61,500 from what was budgeted and revised, and now it is back up. What happened

with the $61,000?

MR. DUTTON:

Right. So the decrease last

year was reflective of vacancies. So there's a manager position that was vacant

throughout the year.

terms of the increase, when we had anticipated the budget, it was to reflect the

step increases and our intent to fill the manager position. Since then, the

director of financial services regulation has been appointed to the Board of

Commissioners of Public Utilities. So we have recruitment ongoing to fill the

director position as well, and it closes on the 24th of April in case you know

anybody.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

I'd

like to go to Consumer and Commercial Affairs, Pensions Benefit Standards,

2.1.03.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, and on this here, I'm

just going to ask a question on Transportation and Communications, $3,100

difference, now we're gone back to the same thing again this year. Can you just

explain that?

MR. DUTTON:

Okay, so in terms of Transportation and Communications, there was less travel

than anticipated last year; this is a fairly modest budget. We still have $6,100

for the year ahead.

As an

example, we have some meetings coming up in May in Wabush with the Wabush

pensioners, so it wouldn't take very many trips to Wabush to exhaust that fund.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I know that we have some

legislation that's coming pretty soon in the House that we'll be talking about

pensions.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So my questions I'll ask at

that time and listen to the reasons why we're bringing some of that stuff in.

MR. DUTTON:

Sure thing.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Go to

section 2.1.04,

Commercial Registrations. Again, on the line of Salaries, there's a huge

difference here. We budgeted last year $1,406,000 and then we revised it to

$1,415,500 and we have $243,000 in the difference downwards, on a decrease. Can

you explain that?

MR. DUTTON:

Sure.

The

decrease in $233,600 was reflective of the sunsetting of the temporary funding

for the verification project offset by step increases for the permanent

complement in the division.

So the

verification project, a lot of the records of the Registry of Deeds are

paper-based records, so the process they've been going through is to convert the

deed documents. Some of them, the initial group, were in microfilm or digital

format. We have a lot of paper-based records that have to be scanned and

converted into text files that can be searchable to make the database.

So the

funding was time limited and it expired on March 31. There's been a lot of

progress made in the project over time.

While

that funding had concluded, we had two individual positions that we've extended

temporarily out of savings elsewhere in the department for the first part of the

fiscal year to continue the project. As we manage our salary plan we'll look at

how to continue to advance that going forward.

minimum what we want to do is ensure that we preserve the records in digital

form so if there was a flood or a fire that we wouldn't lose some of these

historic documents. We have them going back to 1982 at least, but some of these

records go back to 1825. They're in binders that are odd shaped, they're

hand-written texts, so it takes a lot of work to, not just handle the documents

but also to make sure you verify that the scanned text is actually what's

written on the page. They're used frequently by (inaudible).

MR. K PARSONS:

Yeah, but how many positions were eliminated here in this?

MR. DUTTON:

There were initially seven funded positions out of the budget allotment. There

were two vacant at the end of the fiscal year, so there were five positions

there. Two of them have been extended and three others have continued on to work

in the division in other positions as a result of bumping or temporary

assignment.

MR. K PARSONS:

Okay.

Just a

last question I have and it's just a curious question here on the Purchased

Services. What's used here in this section?

MR. DUTTON:

Purchased Services in Commercial Registrations is primarily the funding for the

personal property registry. That's a contract that we have with Unisys and it

involves the Maritime provinces and the three territories as well. So it was an

intergovernmental joint procurement a number of years ago. That's the biggest

expense in that area.

MR. K PARSONS:

Okay. I'm good.

CHAIR:

Okay. It's 7:26, we're going to take a short break, give the Broadcast people a

break and reconvene in seven minutes.

Recess

CHAIR:

Okay, we will resume

Estimates for Service NL. I think in terms of line by line we left off at

2.1.04, so we will continue with the Member for St. John's Centre.

MS. ROGERS:

Under Occupational Health

and Safety Inspections we see a significant drop there in Salaries in the

revised for '17-'18.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes. We had eight vacancies throughout the division at the end of March and

we've budgeted for the full amount expecting to work to fill them all. Some of

those are still unfilled – I think seven. We'll likely have some savings there

at the end of the year, but we are maintaining all of the positions.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, sorry, I don't

understand.

All the

vacancies will be filled?

MR. DUTTON:

There were eight vacant at the end of March. One person has started since then,

so there are currently seven. And there are recruitments ongoing for the other

positions.

MS. ROGERS:

That will reflect the amount

that was voted in there. Okay, great. Thank you very much.

Statistics on the department's website show that there were fewer inspections

and directives in 2016 compared to 2015. Can you tell me why that is?

MR. DUTTON:

The number of inspections I think varies from year to year.

MS. ROGERS:

Mm-hmm.

MR. DUTTON:

I think I was just looking at some statistics on the number of inspections – I'm

just not sure if I can put my hands on it right away.

The

inspections are fairly consistent. They do go up and down but the activity

hasn't really changed in terms of the level of effort. Obviously if positions

are vacant, those people aren't doing inspections, but people are out in the

field quite frequently.

MS. ROGERS:

How long were the vacancies vacant?

MR. DUTTON:

It varies. A couple of people had left for positions in the private sector and

so the recruitments were ongoing. I'd have to ask for some additional data on

that, but there's regular turnover.

MS. ROGERS:

So there's not a prolonged period of vacancy to save money or …

MR. DUTTON:

No. In fact, because all of the funding is charged back to WorkplaceNL, then we

sort of deal with that as a discreet item in the budget.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

The

stop-work orders, is the department considering posting stop-work orders online

as in other provinces?

MR. DUTTON:

One of the things we've received a lot of calls about are for information about

not just stop-work orders but other general orders.

Orders

are posted in the workplace for all the workers to see so they're already

largely in the public domain. We have discussed the option of posting those

online because whenever we get a media call and someone asks for a copy, we just

do the redaction of personal information and provide the information to whoever

asks for it.

So it

is something we'd be looking at as a potential future proactive disclosure.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

What is

the department's role in addressing workplace violence? How is that?

MR. DUTTON:

There are provisions in the occupational health and safety regulations on

violence prevention. There are obligations there for employers to have violence

prevention plans. We do regular inspections as well. One of the issues that had

been identified in the injury prevention strategy was the frequency of incidents

of workplace violence.

Clearly, despite the requirements in the act that they aren't all being

fulfilled by all workplaces, it's an area that we would have inspection

activity. As well, WorkplaceNL don't report to the department, but through the

injury prevention strategy they're proposing to do more public education and

training on violence prevention.

It's

also something the minister referenced in the House recently that we were

reviewing the provisions in the regulations with Occupational Health and Safety

Advisory Council which was just recently appointed.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Will

there be a statutory review of the

Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Act this year? The last one was in

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We're still addressing

the past stat review. Our intent is to address the issues and concerns from the

previous stat review that was shelved prior to us coming into government in

2015. Once I get those all addressed, then we will set a time frame for the next

stat review.

MS. ROGERS:

So there's no plan for that

right now then, so it might be –

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Not this year, but the

plan is to address the stat review this year.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Last

year, we saw the completion of the Labrador West Medical Audit with the

publication of the report, which included 11 recommendations to improve silica

monitoring and protection for workers in the mining industry.

Can we

get an update on how the implementation of these recommendations is proceeding?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Sure. If you will just

forward that question to me, I'll get an update for you.

MS. ROGERS:

Perfect.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Workplace Health and

Safety Compensation, their particular budget runs to December 31, so it's not

included here but I can get an update for you.

MS. ROGERS:

Great, thank you.

MR. DUTTON:

In that particular case – if I may – the study was done by Horizon Occupational

Health consultants –

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. DUTTON:

We have a committee involved

with the labour force in the area around the implementation of the

recommendations. So we'll get an update on their progress, but they've been

engaged and we're supportive of the release of the report and the process

format.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. So we can get an

update then.

Thank

you very much.

MR. DUTTON:

Okay.

MS. ROGERS:

I'm okay on that particular

area.

CHAIR:

Yeah, carry on.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I just got one question on

this

section or do you want to stay with –?

CHAIR:

Okay, do you want to stay on

the

section –?

MS. ROGERS:

Oh, sure, I can go on to 2.3

if you like.

CHAIR:

We can come back.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

So the

Assistance to the St. Lawrence Miners' Dependents, we see that there's still

money on the books in that area. Is that not completed? Or what is that money

for, the Allowances and Assistance?

MR. DUTTON:

The special assistance is there for the dependents of the miners who had died

there. The program is ongoing but as the people age out, then the expenditure is

decreasing year over year.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay and so there are still

some beneficiaries there.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Assistance to Outside Agencies; we see there was nothing budgeted in '17-‘18,

nothing in '18-‘19, but the revised was $6,500. Could you tell me what that is?

MR. DUTTON:

Sure, it's just around the

timing difference on the reimbursement from WorkplaceNL. Costs incurred in the

last quarter of '17-‘18 would not be reimbursed until the first quarter of

'18-'19. In general, a lot of these are recurring grants that are going to

industry associations and events to advance safety, particularly where they're

ordered by the court.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Then

Motor Vehicle Registration, under Salaries we see an increase in the revised in

'17-'18, almost $100,000.

MR. DUTTON:

I'm sorry, which line item in Administration?

MS. ROGERS:

Salaries.

MR. DUTTON:

Salaries?

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. DUTTON:

Okay.

The

increased expenditure in the past year was as a result of severance and leave

payout to a retired employee. The increase of $37,500 for the year ahead is

reflective of step increases.

MS. ROGERS:

Step increases. Okay, great.

The

other one was a severance and leave payout for one position, was it?

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

All right. Thank you.

Service

– License and Registration under Purchased Services; we see a drop in $119,000.

MR. DUTTON:

I'm sorry again, which line item?

MS. ROGERS:

If we go under 3.1.02, under

Salaries.

MR. DUTTON:

Okay.

MS. ROGERS:

Under that, under Operating

Accounts, Purchased Services.

MR. DUTTON:

Purchased Services; in the last fiscal year there was a $4,900 increase

reflective of increased vehicle costs. There was a recall on vehicles from

within the departmental fleet.

For

'18-‘19 Purchased Services, the decrease is a result of the rightsizing under

the zero-based budgeting and a reduced expenditure for Moneris fees. They are

the fees we pay for the online payments for bills.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Okay.

Thank

you very much.

CHAIR:

The Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I just want to go back; I may have missed the answer on this. I apologize if I

have. I want to go back to

section 2.2.01, Occupational Health and Safety

Inspections. I remember last year when we talked about this

section there were a

lot of positions and a lot of turnover in this

section here.

talked about you budgeted for a full amount of people that were in place. There

were two positions that we talked about in Wabush.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Have those positions been filled?

MR. DUTTON:

Yes, they were filled last year and they did their training. I think one was on

site by the end of June, the other the first week of July and they continue to

be there. There was an existing support position there as well that will

continue, so the office is fully staffed.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, that's just a question I wondered.

I want

to go to Motor Vehicle Registration. I'm not going to go line by line, but I do

have some questions. You brought up a topic earlier that concerned me a bit and

I want to talk about it a little bit today.

Your

driver's licence and registration renewal, you're going to do that online as of,

I think, April 30. Is that correct?

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

How are other people going to be aware, particularly seniors – and I spoke to a

couple of people about this – when they don't have a computer or email?

MS. WHEATON:

I think the focus needs to shift a little bit from this notion of online. We're

basically saying as a department that – we always like to say that driving is a

privilege and not a right. We're saying that really this is something that we

think the citizens of the province need to take greater responsibility to

remember to renew their driver's licence or to renew their vehicle. We're

providing them a range of options, one of which is to give us their email

address so that we can actually send them a notification.

I spoke

to my parents over the weekend. My dad is 82 and my mom is 75. I talked them

through it and said: Mom, when you go to renew your driver's licence this time,

take a picture of it and put it on the refrigerator. The same thing with your

stickers, look at the date on your stickers and put it on the calendar.

I guess

what we're trying to do is to get the conversation going. We've called out to

public servants and we're calling out to the general public to get the message

out that this is one of those things that we've really gotten into the practice

of relying on paper notification when there are a lot of easier ways to

remember.

Email

is just one option. We are also offering people if you want to align your

vehicle renewal around your birthdate, so a number of quick and easy tips for

people to remember when their renewal is up. The email is one option. We

certainly recognize that not everybody has a computer, but the majority of

people, even if you don't have a computer you have access to a trusted friend.

The nature of the information we send in the email, there's no personal

identification going out so it's just a very quick reminder.

MR. K. PARSONS:

That's okay. It's great that

your mom and dad are aware of this, but it's because you're involved in it. How

many people in the province are not aware of it?

I spoke

to a person about this earlier and they said: Geez, if I don't get my

notification in the mail how am I going to know? I would imagine the majority of

seniors and people that do not have computers – this is how they do it and this

is what they've done for years.

I know

we have to change and I know it's great to send me an email because I'm going to

see it. But if you talk to people that are out there, this is something that

they need – I'm sure, Minister, there are a lot out in your area and in my area,

too, that are seniors. Once they get their notification they're gone into Motor

Registration and getting it done as soon as possible.

I think

this is a great option for people that have email. Let them go ahead and do it

on their email; I'd do it on my email. But if the option is there for a person

that doesn't have this, that option should also say if you don't have an email

address, we'll do it by email or by mail out so it gives that person, the senior

– and not only seniors, there are lots of people out there that don't have

email.

I think

it's a problem. I think down the road there will be issues that – and people who

put it on their fridge. I have a lot of stuff on my fridge. I tell you, I put a

lot of stuff on my fridge, but to put it on from one year to the next, I don't

think it's going to stay there because there will be a picture covering it over

of one of the grandchildren or something. That's what happens and I can see this

as being a huge issue for people in the province.

MS. WHEATON:

I guess one of the things, looking at the sticker as being the most important,

the expiration date of your vehicle permit is actually written right on the

sticker. We are proactively working with all the means that we have possible to

get the message out, whether it's through a seniors association and

Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador. The more that we chat about it, the

more that I think it will be helpful for people to remember just to look at that

expiration date on your sticker.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

This

also applies for driver's licences, renewal on your driver's licence?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

If you take your

driver's licence out you will look, there's an expiry date right on the front of

your driver's licence.

This

move is going to save us $450,000 so we can reallocate to more innovative ways.

This is a paper trail, and I understand it's going to take time for people to

adjust but the onus is on the individual to be responsible for your own driver's

licence, and your driver's licence expiry date is on the licence.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I know that minister and I

know it is, but if I was travelling to another province in Canada and got hauled

over and it showed that my driver's licence was expired for some reason or

because I forgot to renew it, it may be easier for me to explain that as a

senior or anybody else in the province to a law enforcement officer that it's a

new regulation that came in, but if it happened in another province, I'm not

sure what the rules are. It may be a huge issue if something happened like that

because of the notification.

People,

especially seniors, are accustomed to doing things a certain way. I know my

parents were the same way: Listen, once I get that in the mail, I'm going to go

do this. I just see it as a problem. I think there's a way around it. I think

you could probably do it by – if I have an email then take me off the list, but

if I don't have an email address then send it to me.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes, I can say it's a

$450,000 expenditure that's not necessary because the expiry date is on the

front of your licence and as adults we have to be responsible.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. I know it came out in

a release. What other means are you doing to ensure that people realize this is

going to happen April 30?

MR. DUTTON:

One of the things we did was notice through the public service network to all

public service employees to alert them about the same time as the announcement,

and encouraging staff in the public service not just to sign up themselves but

also to alert their family and friends. We've heard from a number of people that

have contacted their family and friends to sign up.

For

quite some time the portal for electronic payments has had a provision for

people to be able to provide their email address voluntarily even before the

announcement was made. So we've been collecting email addresses over time and

then getting people's consent to use that as the means to notify them for the

following year.

renewed my in March and I had provision there. You had to just login and provide

your email address. You type it in twice to make sure there are no typographical

errors. They send you a confirmation email to your home account so that you

verify you are the actual person that was assigned to the driver's licence or

registration.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Do you believe there should

be some kind of a public service announcement on radio or something like that so

people could be notified and understand? Not everyone has relatives that are

working in the public service.

It's

going to be new to a lot of people that are really expecting this – like I said,

I get mine in the mail and I go do it. That's what most people in this province

do. No one wants to have a licence that's expired or their car vehicle that's

expired. They want to be able to abide by the law.

Again,

if you're going to do this there should be a public awareness so that the public

– other than public servants know about it, that the general public knows it

also.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes. We also included material in our mail outs at the end of the March, with

the renewals that went out at that time. We have information available in all of

our Motor Registration Division offices throughout the province. We're certainly

awareness.

Your

point is taken, and we're looking at any creative ideas to get the message out

to people about signing up with their email notification or using other methods

to ensure that they do renew.

As you

mentioned, people driving without a licence or registration are subject to a

fine. Besides the fiscal benefits, there is also an environmental benefit to not

having to buy all of that paper and envelopes that won't be going to the

landfill.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah. When it comes to a

driver's licence, I know the new licence is good for 10 years, your photo ID

right now under the new licence, but there's still a five-year renewal that has

to be done. To remember it every five years for a person – I know it's on this

but I'll tell you, I haven't looked at my driver's licence other than to pass it

in to someone when somebody needed it. To know what the expiry date is, I

wouldn't be able to tell you, and I'm sure no one over there probably would be

able to tell the exact date.

You

would, because, Minister, yours was just done last year with the new one. I saw

the picture of it, so yours is done. It's just a concern of mine and it's a

legitimate concern I have with people, that this is – and I'll move on now

because that's enough.

I got

to applaud the department; I was in and did the appointment through the

appointment system at Motor Registration and it worked really well for me. I

have to say, it was a great system and stuff like that. Now, the day I was in

there was probably a bad day. I know Motor Registration at the time, it depends

on the time of the month when people go to Motor Registration. It seems like

more towards the end of the month you'll see people going, but what has it done

for wait times? Are there still a lot of wait times in there?

MS. WHEATON:

It actually has done quite significant for wait times. What we still find – one

of our next hurdles that we have to tackle is certain times of the month people

kind of put off, so we have some days when you can go out there and there are

literally 200, 300 people there and there are other days that there are 10.

That's one of the pieces we're next looking at to try to tackle, try figure out:

what is it that causes that crunch?

The

appointment system does help hugely. Like you, I regularly receive reports from

people who are in and out in two minutes. I've actually had stories about that.

So we're really pleased about that. It's made much more life-work balance for

staff because life is much more predictable.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

This

just occurred to me the other day when I was driving also; I noticed there are

still a lot of faulty licence plates out there. I know last year they had to pay

a fee, I think it was $30, when they came in. I think that all got straightened

up and we reimbursed the people that had to pay for it.

Is that

still in place now? Are the faulty licence plates step program over, or if you

come in now with a faulty licence plate do you have to pay for it?

MR. DUTTON:

Normally, anybody with a (inaudible) plate and bring it in to Motor Registration

and have it replaced free of charge.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. All right.

If a

person goes to Motor Registration today, and I know there's a new driver's

licence right now, that's still done in Ontario? I know first when it came out

there was a company – so it's still done in Ontario. Okay.

If you

don't mind, I got a few questions that's along the motor registration line but

they're not really with the division. I just wonder if the minister can update

the status on the automobile insurance review for the province.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The PUB has sent back – two of the reports back or three from the PUB?

MR. DUTTON:

There were two of the three

reports are public.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yeah. Two of the three

reports are public and we're waiting on a third report.

The

department is actively reviewing the data we received and we've met with the

taxi industry a number of times. We're working collaboratively with them. There

are some changes coming to Motor Vehicle Registration as it pertains to the

taxis. The whole concept and the idea is to work with them to help them decrease

their insurance but, overall, the objective is to help decrease insurance for

the general population as a whole because we are paying the highest insurance in

Canada.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. So the results of this

review, when are we going to see the results of the review? How long do you

expect it's –

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It will probably take until the fall, so we can enter this into the House of

Assembly.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay. The next one I got

drives me crazy all the time. That's not hard sometimes.

There

are a lot of uninsured drivers and there are a lot of outstanding fees of

uninsured or unregistered drivers and we're hearing about it all the time. What

is the department doing to correct what's happening with people that are out

there that are not registered, uninsured drivers? Is there any legislation we

should be putting in place that should …?

MR. DUTTON:

The Department of Justice

does the fines collection.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah, I know.

MR. DUTTON:

I think the Minister of

Justice and Public Safety has made some comments publicly over the past year

over some of the options he's considering. From our point of view one of the

things we've done through Bill 27 was to put an onus on the driver to

demonstrate that they are insured. As opposed to before the government had to

prove the person was driving without insurance, now the onus is on the driver to

prove they did have insurance. It's one of the ways to try to help improve

enforcement.

We've

also signed a Canadian Driver's Licence Agreement with the other provinces and

territories of Canada. We've agreed to review the movement of people between

jurisdictions on whether they have any unpaid fines. People from Newfoundland

and Labrador moving to Alberta or vice versa, before they would get their

licence issued, we would check to see if they had outstanding fines in the other

jurisdiction. That will help us to close the gap a bit more on those individuals

and any other ideas we can pursue.

I think

there's a public perception when the police announce that they've pulled someone

over with thousands of dollars of unpaid fines that those are

Highway Traffic Act fines, but they

aren't necessarily. One of the cases last year involved a person where the fine

was related to the Tobacco Control Act ,

but because the police stopped them and were able to check their database – they

find people they stop through traffic stops that owe any kind of fine to the

government, not just the Highway Traffic

Act fines. It creates a false perception that maybe there are more

Highway Traffic Act fines outstanding

than there are.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Just

one more question, Chair, if you don't mind.

CHAIR:

(Inaudible.)

MR. K. PARSONS:

We brought in some new

legislation on impaired driving laws last year. I'm really supportive of it and

I spoke in the House about it also. I'm just wondering now, I know we brought in

this new legislation for impaired driving, will the same legislation apply for

marijuana or will there be new legislation introduced?

brought in that the car would be taken from them and we brought in the interlock

system –

MR. DUTTON:

All I can say is in the

Highway Traffic Act today

drug-impaired driving is an offence and there are existing penalties for

drug-impaired driving. I think we were one of the few provinces that had that

sort of provision. It's also an offence under the

Criminal Code .

The

federal government has Bill C-46 that's dealing with the

Criminal Code offences as they relate

to cannabis and driving. They published regulations in the Gazette,

Part I, that

would set what they call per se limits where they would determine like with the

blood-alcohol level that if someone has a level of THC that's above the per se

limit, they will be deemed to be impaired for the purpose of an offence under

the Criminal Code . That hasn't been

published yet in Gazette,

Part II, which would make the regulations final. The

bill is still before the Senate, so that hasn't completed its process.

understand the federal government indicated that while July was the initial

date, because of the time it takes to move through the legislative process in

the federal government, that it would probably be later in the summer before

those rules would take effect. We're looking closely at what they're doing and

whether that has any implication for the

Highway Traffic Act .

The

deployment of the testing devices is another issue that we're waiting for the

federal government to deploy to the policing services, and provide the necessary

training for highway traffic officers with the RCMP and the RNC to be able to

successfully deploy them. In the absence of that, they can still do Field

Sobriety Tests. If someone doesn't pass a Field Sobriety Test they can be

brought to the police station or to the hospital to do a blood test to determine

their level of impairment.

CHAIR:

The Member for St. John's

Centre.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you very much.

Under

Motor Vehicle Registration, in the Estimates meeting that we had with Justice

and Public Safety a question was asked by the minister about the idea of issuing

car licences – the plate – to the person rather than the vehicle so that you

take your plate with you. He deferred to you folks, suggesting you were the

minister to ask about this policy, which is getting more and more traction in

public debate. Are you looking at that at all?

MR. DUTTON:

That's something that's also been raised in our meetings with the taxi industry

and with other stakeholders that have written to the minister. We are evaluating

it. It's not as simple as it appears on the surface because we would have to

make adjustments to our IT systems to move to a plate-to-owner over a

plate-to-vehicle system. That's not necessarily an insignificant cost. We did

discuss that with the Office of the Chief Information Officer to try to do a bit

of a ballpark evaluation of what the costs would be and also to assess what

would be the benefit.

One of

the potential benefits on the revenue side would be if you had a different

system you might be able to do personalized plates for people. They might be

willing to pay an extra cost to be able to choose what their plate said as long

as it was decent.

MS. ROGERS:

Vanity plates.

MR. DUTTON:

The other side of the coin

is the issue around – where they have plate-to-owner in other jurisdictions they

haven't completely resolved the issue of unpaid fines, so it hasn't been a

foolproof solution. We have to weigh the cost of the IT upgrade against whatever

revenue we might get from the vanity plates and how much better you would be at

collecting some of the unpaid fines. That's all part of an evaluation that we're

continuing to do.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

Motor

Vehicle, 3.1.03; we see a reduction in Salaries there from '17-'18 to '18-'19.

Can you explain that reduction? Are there positions gone? What is that reduction

there?

MR. DUTTON:

No, this is enforcement. This is our highway enforcement officers. We had a

number of vacancies throughout the year. We have these positions throughout the

province, and between retirements and departures we had a lot of ongoing

competitions.

We've

been working actively to fill those positions as priority given to the safety

function that they fulfill. We had five vacancies as of March 31 and we're

working hard to fill the remainder of the positions.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

Under

Property, Furnishings and Equipment we see a huge increase there.

MR. DUTTON:

Sure.

The

additional expenditure in '17-'18 was for the replacement of several of the

portable weigh scales. We have a number of fixed scales in locations in the

province, but the portable scales are used for deployment to other areas for

enforcement activity.

reallocated some savings from Occupational Health and Safety due to the one-time

vacancies for this one-time expense. Rather than have it as an ongoing expense,

we replaced six of them at once.

MS. ROGERS:

These are portable scales to

weigh vehicles?

MR. DUTTON:

They do, yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Oh.

MR. DUTTON:

Yeah, to ensure that they're

complying with weight restrictions. Trucking companies, particularly if they're

involved in the construction industry and they're moving aggregate or other

things, we need to ensure that they're not doing unnecessary damage to the

roads.

MS. ROGERS:

Who would have known they

existed.

Great,

thank you.

3.2.02,

Regional Services, under Salaries we see, again, a reduction of about $320,000.

MR. DUTTON:

Yeah, so the lower

expenditure under '17-'18 was savings due to vacancies. They were offset by

severance and leave payout to a retired manager. Then, for the year ahead,

there's a decrease which reflects the planned savings to balance the salary

plan. So there were some positions that were vacant, where people had left, that

we were leaving vacant for the year.

MS. ROGERS:

And how many positions would

that be?

MR. DUTTON:

We had four vacancies in the division at the end of March.

MS. ROGERS:

And those won't be filled.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, so four positions cut.

MR. DUTTON:

I think the manager, though, is one we are filling that's a funded vacancy. That

manages the environmental health program. That's in this area, is it not? Yeah.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. And there are no

backlogs in services in those areas?

MR. DUTTON:

No, I wouldn't say so.

This is

also another area where we're publishing service standards. So for all of the

Government Services Branch we're publishing our service standards so people will

have a way to evaluate how we're doing on meeting those standards in the year

ahead. They've only just recently been published on the government website.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah.

MR. DUTTON:

And that will give us a tool to be able to manage how we're doing in meeting the

demand from the public.

MS. ROGERS:

Can you tell us what parts

of the province these four positions will be cut?

MR. DUTTON:

I don't know if I have that offhand, but I can provide it.

MS. ROGERS:

Great, thank you.

assume whatever one of us gets, both of us will get in terms of information.

MR. DUTTON:

We'll provide to you, yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, great, thank you very

much.

Thank

you.

Other

Services, 3.3.01, Vital Statistics Registry.

I just

want to say, I was a marriage commissioner for quite a while before I was

elected and I still do that at times for folks. I was appointed as a marriage

commissioner when same-sex marriages became legal, and the people in that

department were extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary. They were just nothing

short of fabulous, I just want to say that.

MR. DUTTON:

Thank you.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, they were great. Ken

Mullaly, that whole team there, they were very, very good at a time when it was

very difficult for many people who were constantly going trying to get married

and trying to get – and then when it was legal, to be able to so proudly go and

be treated with such respect and dignity. It was just a win-win for everyone. So

I just wanted to say that.

Under

Salaries, 01, we see that from the budget of 2017-18, there's a decrease of

$85,000 for the budget of 2018-19 – I mean, yes.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes, so the reduced expenditure in '17-'18 was reflective of vacancies for a

portion of the year. So for the year ahead, we have some planned savings again

to balance the salary budget. So we're not impacting any of our current

employees as a result of that.

MS. ROGERS:

So what's happening is that

the vacancy from the previous year won't be filled, is that it?

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

So that's another loss of

position, okay.

Do we

know where that position is? Would that be somewhere –?

MR. DUTTON:

It should be in Mount Pearl, as I believe all the positions are in the Mount

Pearl MRD location.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

You

folks did have a lot of vacancies.

MR. DUTTON:

Well, there's a lot of turnover, and I don't have the figure, but certainly

there have been a lot of retirements in the past year.

MS. ROGERS:

Mm-hmm.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

Under

the Queen's Printer, we see a significant shift in the revenue. Where would that

revenue come from? Would that be – I won't even try (inaudible).

MR. DUTTON:

I think primarily people who

subscribe to the Newfoundland and Labrador Gazette.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. So that would be

outside government.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. So I guess there was a

substantial dip there in the revised for '17-'18.

Okay.

Thank you.

MR. DUTTON:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

That is all I have for Other

Services.

I do

have some general questions around Regional Services, for instance school bus

inspections. It's great to see the inspections online, and that probably is

providing some support – some comfort to parents.

When

will the 2018 inspections be posted?

MR. DUTTON:

Well, we do inspections

multiple times during the year.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. DUTTON:

So normally in the spring,

as I recall, they do at least 30 per cent of each bus fleet and then if there

are any anomalies or issues then they may do more than the 30 per cent and

perhaps do the entire fleet. So I think last year, we had online around late May

or early June.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. DUTTON:

So that would likely be our

next publication.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

Has the

department started conducting spot inspections, and how is that proceeding?

MR. DUTTON:

Spot inspections of school

buses?

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. DUTTON:

Well, I guess, as they are

required. They gather information from the public, if there are complaints or

concerns. If anyone has a concern about the safety of buses they should

certainly notify Motor Registration and they can take an inspection activity at

any time. So that sort of thing would be carefully monitored.

I would

say in the last year, since the new penalties were brought in and a lot of the

safety record, I think it was a lot better, the last couple of inspections, than

it had been in the year prior.

MS. ROGERS:

Mm-hmm.

MR. DUTTON: S o

we're having some effect, and I guess it also demonstrates that most of the

operators are committed to safety and we just have to make sure that those that

were not or trying to cut around the edges, that actions were taken.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. The notes I have here –

CHAIR:

The Member for Cape St. Francis.

We'll

get back to you.

MS. ROGERS:

I have just this last question.

CHAIR:

Just one more question? Okay, with that –?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah, that's fine.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MS. ROGERS:

The department noted in the media that spot inspections would start this year.

So has

the department started conducting spot inspections and how is that proceeding?

That's the notes I have here.

MS. WHEATON:

As Sean indicated, we have a model whereby we randomly select a percentage. It's

completely at random so the bus company doesn't know.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, so that would be that. Yes.

MS. WHEATON:

And that randomness determines if we decide that we're going to do the whole

fleet. So they don't know which buses we're going – there's a whole lot of

rigour built into that inspection process.

MS. ROGERS:

Right.

MS. WHEATON:

Then there's one time of the year when we're doing the entire fleet, but there

is a random approach to it so they would not know which buses we would be

selecting.

MS. ROGERS:

So the company knows that you're coming to do inspections but they don't know

which specific vehicles, is that it?

MS. WHEATON:

Right.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MS. WHEATON:

Sometimes they might not even know we're coming, depending on if there's some

other issue noted, but, no, certain times of year we're doing the random

sampling so we're in complete control.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Thank you very much.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I have some general questions and just a few general questions.

noticed today that there was one taxi company that came in and had their whole

fleet, I believe, into Motor Registration.

I just

listened to the news and I was just – why was it that it seemed like there was

specific companies picked out rather than do random taxi inspections? I know

there was two companies that were picked out. I know also that you did some

random ones down at the airport. Was there a reason for that, on the inspection

side?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Just let me clarify, are you saying that there were, in fact, two companies

picked out and checked?

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No, that's not correct.

All the

taxi companies right across the province were randomly checked out and the

results came forward. The taxi company that went in today, they decided, it was

on their own. We didn't even know they were doing it. They called in and they

made the appointment and decided that they would do this themselves.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, so neither taxi company was chosen in front of the Village Mall or –?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No specific taxi company was picked out, no.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, that's good. I'm glad to hear that.

I just

want to ask a question. I know there's a real good answer to this but I was

asked this question about seat belts on buses. I know there are reasons for not

having seat belts. Are you looking at any way that we can have some seat belts

on school buses?

MR. DUTTON:

I think we take our guidance from the federal department of Transport on that.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay and they don't

recommend having seat belts on buses.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

I believe there was some

information in the media this week about that and why there are no seat belts on

school buses.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I know. The height of the

seats and there are a lot of different issues. I was asked that by a mother over

the weekend and I said when I get Service NL in the week, I'm going to ask them

that question.

Anyway,

I want to know about blue zone parking. I know the new regulations are broad

again – something that's very supportive. I like the job that's done around the

Confederation Building. Have we hired any new enforcement officers? How are we

doing to enforce it? It's a real bug of mine; it drives me absolutely crazy to

watch this sometimes happen.

MR. DUTTON:

In terms of the blue zone parking, the police also have the ability to ticket

for blue zone parking offences. We put a focus throughout the department on

trying to maintain the front-line capacity that we have today on enforcement and

inspection services generally.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Just

the last two questions; one is a review of the

Real Estate Trading Act . What's the

status of this act? Is the review done?

MR. DUTTON:

I'm glad you came back to that. I'm sorry I forgot. I should have covered that

earlier.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah, okay.

MR. DUTTON:

We had a consultation process through the EngageNL web portal. That closed at

the end of March. We had, I think, over 90 submissions through that so our staff

are going through the submissions.

addition to that, the real estate board held their own consultations across

Newfoundland and Labrador. We had staff from our department sit in on some of

those sessions, as well as Labrador Affairs staff sitting in on the sessions in

Happy Valley-Goose Bay and Labrador West and shared their notes of that with us.

The minister attended one of the sessions with the real estate board here in the

St. John's metropolitan area. We're reviewing all of that feedback.

believe the real estate board may prepare a formal submission that they had some

discussions with the director on that they were still working on. We'll consider

all of that with a view to whether we might have some legislation for government

to consider as early as the fall.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Thank you.

Last

one. The Residential Tenancies Act is

also under review. Can you give us an update at where that's to?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

I mentioned earlier about the Residential

Tenancies Act . We are very active on that and I'm hoping to bring

legislation in in the very, very, very near future.

MR. K. PARSONS:

We might see it next week.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Three verys.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Thank

you.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

There's been a lot of work done on that.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yeah, okay.

I just

want to say, Mr. Chair, I want to thank everyone on the other side for your

answers tonight. I appreciate the time and effort. I know there are a lot of

questions sometimes you can't get answers to, but I really appreciate your time

and effort here tonight. I really appreciate it.

Thank

you so much.

MS. ROGERS :

I also wanted to say thank you very much. I know from early morning to late at

night like this how difficult it is, and then you have to be on deck again first

thing in the morning.

thank you so very much for your patience and your generosity tonight, and thank

you for your great work.

Thank

you.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay, we will recall the

sections.

CLERK:

1.1.01 through 3.3.03 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 through 3.3.03 inclusive, carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Carried.

motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 3.3.03 carried.

CLERK:

The total.

CHAIR:

Shall the total carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Carried.

motion, Department of Service NL, total heads, carried.

CHAIR:

I'd like to thank you, Minister Gambin-Walsh, and your department heads and

staff for providing answers for the Government Services Committee.

CLERK:

Report without amendment.

CHAIR:

Oh, I'm sorry.

Shall I

report the Estimates of the Department of Service NL and Public Procurement

Agency carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Carried.

motion, Estimates of the Department of Service NL and Public Procurement carried

without amendment.

CHAIR:

Okay. The next meeting of the Government Services Committee will take place on

Monday, April 30, 2018, at 9 a.m. here in the Chamber, at which time we will

review the Estimates of the Department of Finance, Consolidated Fund Services

and Public Service Commission.

motion to adjourn.

MR. KING:

So moved.

CHAIR:

Carried.

Thank

you.

motion, the Committee adjourned.