Manitoba Committee Hansard — 13 March 1990 (Private Bills Committee, Sitting 3, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

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Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

lEGISlATIVE AS SEMBlY OF MA NITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PRIVATE BillS Tuesday, March 13 , 1990 TIME - 3 p.m. lOCA TI ON - Wi nnipeg, Manitoba CHAIR MAN - Mr. Helmut Pankrab: (l a Verendrye) ATTENDANCE - 10 - QUORUM - 6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Mr. McC rae Messrs. Carr , Cheema, Doer, Gilleshammer, Kozak , Minenko, Pank ratz , Prazn ik, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis WITN ESSES: Mr. Jack Eyer, Northwest Child and Family Services Agency Mr. Arne Peitz, Private Citi zen Mr. AI Caron , City of Wi nni peg Pol ice Department Mr. Mark O' Neill, Certified General Accountants Association Ms.

Marilyn Nosko, Manitoba Association of Home Economists APPEARING: Mr. !saac Silver, Legislative Cou nsel Ms. Avis Gray, MLA for Ellice MATTERS UNDER DISCUSS ION: Bill No. 16 -An Act to Protect the Health of Non-Smokers Bill No. 88- The Physically Disabled Persons Parking Act Bill No. 91- The Public Health Amendment Act Bill No. 95- The Certified Gene ral Accountants Act Bill No. 96-An Act to Amend

an Act Respect ing the Roman Ca tholic Archiepiscopal Corpora tion of Winnipeg and the Roman Ca tholic Archdiocese of Winnipeg Bill No. 10 4 - The Profes sional Home Economists Act Mr. Chairman: Order, please. I would like to call the Standing Commit tee on Private Bills to order. This afternoon the comm ittee will resume hearing public presentations on Bills No. 91, 95, 10 4. Previously the committee had met on Thursday, March 8, and at that time the committee had heard public presentations on Bills 16, 88 and 91. I will now read off the names of the remaining presenters. 25 * (15 05) On Bill 91, Mr.

Jack Eyer, Mr. Arne Peltz, Mr. lee Deb areau, Sergeant AI Car on, Mr. Wayne Helgason. On Bill No. 95, Mr. Rob ert McGowan, Mr. Mark O' Neill and Mr. len Hampson. Bill No. 10 4, Ms. Marilyn Nosko. If anyone present would like to speak to the Bills before the committee, please contact the Clerk of Comm ittees and your name will be added to the list. There is nobo dy who would like to present whose name has not been read on the list? Does the committee wish to indicate to members of the public how late the committee will be sitting this afternoon? What is the will of the committee? We are here until six o'clock?

The committee agrees to six o'clock. Bill NO. 91-THE PUBliC HEAl TH AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Chairman: I will now call upon our first presenter. On Bill No. 91, Mr. Jack Eyer, Northwest Child and �=�!!"!!!y Services Agency. Mr. Eyer, do you have a written presentation? Mr. Jack Eyer (N orth west Child and family Services Agency): Not at this time. Mr. Chairman: Go ahead, Mr. Eyer. Mr. Eyer: We welcome this opportunity to express our concern as Northwest Agency about this very dire probl em in the community.

As it is right now, there have not been many efforts made to deal with this issue, and I think this is an important first step in dealing with this. As a representative of the board of Northwest, prior to that I was also the chairperson of the Anti Sniff Coal ition, so with those two halves, so to speak, I have come to appreciate the nature of the problem and the seriousness of the problem. From Winnipeg's inner city to many of the isolated communities in the North, sniffing is a problem that confronts community leaders, health leaders, social activists and a variety of people on a numb er of different fronts.

If I may, witho ut adding too much to the overbu rdened statistics we seem to have, I would like to highlight some of the information that is in the community and is available from the health profession. From 19 80 to 19 86 there were 31 incidences involving sniff that were reported to the children's emergency ward, and unfortunately from'86 to da te they have no information as they are converting to computerized information. From that same period to date, there were 17 child deaths related to sniffing. ln'8 3-84 alone, there were six sniffing deaths.

In addition, there is a growing phenomenon, a rather scary, horrific phenomenon and

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 that is known as "sniff babie s." Dr. Seshia, who is the head of neonatology at the Health Sciences Cen tre had indicated that this problem is growing at rather an ala�ming rate. In fact, it is so noticeable now that she has taken notice within the last year that this is a new issue that needs to be addressed at the Health Sciences Centre.

From our perspective, Northwest-wise, close to 40 percent of our children coming into care have some involvement with sniff, either chronic sniffers or have had some incidence of sniffing, and furthermore, of the infants coming into care, one in ten of our infants coming into care are sniff babi es. If we really want to draw a line and humanize this and think about the kids, many of these bab ies are born to young mothers under the age of majority. This situation raises a lot of alarm. In fact, the seriousness of the sniffing problem caused the Chie f Medical Examiner, Dr.

Markesteyn, to issue a public health warning in June of 19 84. He indicated that the physical pr oblems of sniff, as related to the social prob lems, were immense and were causing great harm. Furthermore, Dr. Tenenb ein, a noted toxicologist working out of the Poison Control Centre, stated in the spring ol 19 85 that sniffing will lead these young peo ple to become unedu cated , unemp loyable, unproductive citizens. We as community oriented people and policy makers must address this probl em. I suggest strongly that the issue we have before us in terms of the Bill will be a strong first step.

Admittedly it is a multifaceted problem, as I indicated prior to this. We need as a first cornerstone some form of legislation. In fact, this was mentioned to the Attorney General in a letter of January, 19 89.

I thank the Minister for his rather lengthy response to it. * (15 10) If I might just briefly go over a brie f history of the solvent problem and the history and the backgr ound of where we are coming to right now, at least in Winnipeg, during the early '70s, it was noted by a variety of act ivists, commun ity ch urch leaders, health professionals and social workers that the sniffing problem was something that was getting out of hand.

In the fall of 19 78, the Winnipeg Anti-Sniff Coalition formed and became an active lobbying group for legislation, treatments, resources, support services in the community, and it was very instrumental in the passing of the City of Winnipeg Anti-Sniff By-law, which I think would stand as a strong precedent for this type of legislation. In addition to this, the Anti-Sniff Coalition was active and supportive with North West in a numb er of different areas from treatment resources in the community to support groups and at present even acting former members are cur rently on the boa rd .

In 19 87, unfor tun ately, the Wi nni peg Ant i-Sn iff Coalition dissolved and a new group found its way into the community. lt was the People Against Solvent Ab use, which is no w the current group be ing very active on this front. Since the need for some type of legislation has been noted by a variety of areas bo th federally, provincially, and I might add that the Alberta Health Act specifies an anti-sniff component in its legislation, which is quite comparable to legislation we have before us, that there exists many precedents for such a Bill and such legislation.

If I may go briefly over why we as an agency feel the need for such legislation, it fills a void that has been noted by the justice system, by police in dealing with the se people th at are deal ing in wanton exp loita tion. These people tha t are selling these products willingly and knowingly do so without any recourse. I think it has been noted recently in the media that one justice indicated his concern over it, and as he indicated, his hands were tied in dealing with that.

Also, I think more importantly, as noted in the previous presentations, it sets out our concern, our society's concern, our community's concern both in Winnipeg, rural communities, Native communities, that this is an issue that we want to deal with. This is an issue that we need to deal with. lt sets out that we do not approve of the exploitation of our young people as it is happening right now. Furthe r on, the federal Government , importantly, has failed to act on this issue, and in the abs ence of federal action we need to take some concerted action at the provincial level.

The Anti-Sniff Coal ition has been active in lob by ing the federal Government for seemingly decades with little or no events changed. There have been some efforts at label ling and informing the manufacturers, informing the retailers, but in hard terms, those people that are dealing in this exploitation, that has little or no impact on their activity. As indicated, the warning labels and the action taken by the federal Government have done little or nothing to really curb the problem. l would suggest that today we really need to deal with this issue.

I think if we fail to deal with it, I think we are going to be looking at further incidences of sniff bab ies and parents and children that are caught in a cycle of exploitation. ! think the MMA made reference to, you know, this is going to lead to a black market, to street prostitution, but the reality of it is, these kids on the street that are sniffing are already into that situation, are already experiencing that horrific life as it is. We, as a community 1 and policy makers, must make an intervention at that front. I think we recognize that education must happen.

I might note there are some very positive things happening. In fact, the lnuit Broadcasting Corp oration has recently publ ished a comic book entitled: Not to be Sniffed At, which has been acclaimed by health prof ess ionals arou nd and act ivists that this is an important step that can be available in the community. I think with those fronts dealt with we can make an important first step in dealing with the issue of sniffing. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Any questions? Ms. Wasylycia-l eis. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-leis (St. John s): Thank you, Mr. Eyer, for that very detailed presentation.

Also, let me take the opportunity, as I did earlier with the presenter, Mr. Bill Rum ley, and thank you in terms of your

Tuesday, March 13 , 1990 contrib ution over the years as part of the Anti-Sniff Co alition and Manitobans Against Solvent Abus e. In your presentation you made considerable reference to the medical effects of solvent abus e and referred to some very sharp statistics with respect to death and illness by young people and also babi es, in terms of victims of solvent abus e. Can you tell us what interaction there has been over the last number of years between the coalition and the medical community? You speak with a great deal of expertise.

Has there been an ongo ing dialogue and inte raction between the community activists and the medical profession? * (1515 ) Mr. Eyer: I think our main liaison has been with Dr. Tenenbe in, an internationally noted toxicologist, whose expertise in the area of sniffing has broug ht him to he is right now currently in Texas making a presentation on substance abus e and also solvent abus e. He has been our main person in terms of information on 1 sniffing.

In fact, he is the person who is gathering these statistics, and I think he should be commanded for that, because unfortunately in the issues of policy making sometimes statistics seem to carry paramounts in addressing an issue, and it is an important area to have an appreciation or a grasp of. We have been very active on that front. We have been very active with communi ty-or ient ed health centres, from the Mount Ca rmel Clinic to the Hope Centre, which are community-based treatment centres and community-based health clinics. We have had on the coalition a number of different times various nurses and doctors.

Currently, at Northwest we have nurses on our board , and they all bring to that activity an awareness of the problem and the medical implications and effects. Ms. Wasylyc ia-Leis: On the ba sis of your own experience and the information received from the medical profession, you can say unequivocally that there have been deaths related to solvent abuse? Mr. Eyer: I can say unequivocally. As I said, the Ch ief Medical Examiner in 19 84 noted the number of deaths and issued a public health warning, so there are, in his reports and others -the coroner examines the nature of the death and the cause of the death.

In this instance he does very detailed-in fact, I might add that Dr. Markesteyn is also a very informed person in the area of sniff. There are senior persons in the medical profession and otherwise that have been very active and informed on the issue. Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis: Notwithstanding the question of deaths, when it comes to damage caused by solvent ab use can you give us a sense of what some of the side effects are, how permanent the damage is and what people live with after being victims of solvent abu se? Mr. Eyer: I think this point was brought very close to home. When I had the opportunity with Dr.

Tenenbein 27 to visit, I guess it would be, the psychiatric ward, one of the persons was a "chronic snifter" and had been in and out of, I guess in this case, the Health Sciences Cen tre. In fact this was documented on film that was put forward by the Anti-Sniff Coalition on sniffing, and it showed, in a horrific way, how dysfunctional this person was in many ways. He would come out into the community and would be lost in terms of skills. We are talking ab out basic skills of survival, personal skills. The only place he knew where to return was to the street.

In essence, I think the people have a variety of dysfunctions. The relative newness of this area does not lend itself to detailed study. lt indicates that many people have mental deficiencies, have disabilities in terms of atrophy in legs and arms and muscles and other factors which may be related to loss of brain cells and functions in the bra in. For all intents and purposes the implications and the effects are very significant. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Just on the question of sniff bab ies, as you called them, are you talking now about ba bies who are born with the addiction because of their mothers' use of solvents, or are you talking abo ut ba bies whose parents or guardians have used one of these products to quiet the baby , or both? Mr. Eyer: I must correct that. There are two horrific elements. One is the children that are born of mothers who are sniffing. They are born like many other people who are suffering from substance ab use.

They are born with what seems to be an addiction to the substance or at least carrying toxic effects of that substance . So that is one noted problem. As I indicated, Dr. Seshia at the Women's Clinic had indicated that. This is a noticeable and growing probl em. In turn, there is also the comparabl e problem where sniff moms or sniff parents-and this br ings even more horrific implications- are sedating their children with sniff. We have cases on the books at Northwest that bring this to mind, that create almost a sense of outrage, anger and any number of emotions abo ut what is really happening.

So those are two things involving ba bies. Ms. Wasyl ycia-Leis: In terms of your dealings with the medical profession over the years, what is your opinion in terms of the direction the medical profession generally would like to go? Do you sense that there is unanimous ba cking for the MMA position? I believe you were here for that presentation and have expressed some surprise at it. Do you sense that reflects the medical profession at least in terms of those people you have dealt with? Mr. Eyer: In speaking with an those people we have dealt with they have indicated that some form of legislation is important.

They have mixed feelings in terms of what type of legislation, how it should be implemented and the nature of the action that follows it. All are in unanimous agreement that there is a need for treat ment, there is a need for educa tion and

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 preventative resources. In turn, many of them agree that there is a need for legislation. Ms. Wasylycia-Lt�is: With respect to the position by the Mani toba Med ical Assoc iation, what is your comment with respect to that position, specifically the statement that solvent abus e is symptomatic of social disarray, and as such, a solution ba sed on prohibi tive legislation is unUkely to have a positive effect? Mr.

Eyer: I would accept the multifacet nature of sniffing. lt is certainly recognized I think by any person that there are a number of problems there, child abus e, a variety of factors, parental bre akdown. I think to in turn follow from that, that prohibition against the sale of sniffing will not be effective I think is questionable.

The examp le in the Wi nnip eg Anti-Sn iff By -la w proved, in many minds, police and otherwise, that it is important to have some form of prohibition, if for no other reason as 'to stop the experimental user who may turn into the chronic user, and more importantly, beg in to identify the chronic snif fer and those people that are exploiting these people and selling it. I would take exception to what the MMA-in terms of drawing that linkage. * (1 520) Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Arguments made by not only the MMA but others in society include the one that limiting the sale of these products to young people will only drive them to more dangerous products. What is your sense of that kind of statement? What has been your experience with respect to young people? Are there other products they would turn to? What are their habi ts with respect to products in these areas? Mr. Eyer: I would suggest that the number of products available now basically encompasses the entire list of substan ces in many ways that people ab use and sniff.

I mean, we have indicated everything from whiteout to gas to nail polish remover, from a variety of substances. So the list, in terms of creating new alternatives if suddenly you create regulation to prevent them from sniffing a g roup under X and suddenly Y be comes available, I would take exception to that, because basically all the subs tances are available fairly freely, and are in many ways sold fairly freely as indicated with little or no repercussion or recourse in terms of what the implications of selling them are. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: You have made clear statements about the multifaceted nature of the problem and the multifaceted approach we must be looking at in terms of the solution. I will leave this as my last question for now. Can you leave us with your thoughts in terms of what is going on now in the community, with respect to prevention and treatment, and so on, as well as the actions �around the regulations on the sale of these products, and a sense of what needs to be done further by Governmeflt, by society generally? Mr.

Eyer: In terms of a preventative effect, I cited earlier the reference of the lnuit Broadcasting Corpora tion's 28 booklet: Not to be Sniffed At. I think if the schools and others would use these resources in the school and the education setting, that would be an important first step in terms of the education-prevention format. I think there are a variety of things that have happened in the past, but for a variety of reasons are not continuing right now. One of the very effective ones that Northwest was active in was an outreach component in terms of sniff.

They were basically going into the community and identifying kids who were sniffing and begi nning to create linkages with them with either support services or agencies, and in turn also the creation of support groups and anti-sniff treatment centres. As it is right now, unfortunately there is not a significant number of targeted resources to sniffers. I think that is a problem that must be addressed by all people involved in the community right now. In the abs ence of that, I think we need to make a first step, and as indicated the legislation is an important first step. Mr. Gulzar Cheema (K ildonan): Mr.

Eyer, without taking much time and without repeating the questions we asked the other day, and the Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) has asked you a num ber of questions, I just wanted to make a few comments. First of all, you have noticed that we disagree with the Membe r's statement completely. They were ill informed. You have indicated Dr. Tenenbein at the Health Sciences Centre, who is in charge of the department, he has done a lot of work. We were rather shocked to see that he was pr obabl y-ma y not have been consulted, so I think they were ill-informed.

Cer tainly, I think the argument was not very solid and defeated the whole purpose why they came here. Your other comments about what is happening at the Health Sciences Centre as well as at the St. Boniface Hospital, when you are getting these newborn bab ies, personally I have the experience of working in both units. We know this problem exists there. This Bill will definitely help. We know that this is not perfect but definitely will establish at least a first contact and make people aware there is a problem .

I think maybe something on the lines of follow-up has to be done because when a person go es there they have to have a consent signed from their parents or their legal guardian, but we should have something to follow up on that, who is going to be in charge. The health inspector should be called having a follow-up or the Department of Health as such, or it should be a separate person assigned to the particular program. I think those are some of the pitfalls, and we should look for that.

Other than that, your presentation is excellent, and we commend your work especially the work you have done as a first-hand experience. I know that the boa rd and I think people like you who contribute in a variety of ways, I think, do better than some of the people who are supposed to be experts in some of the areas, and probably ill-informed as to some of the issues. * (15 25)

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 Mr. Eyer: If I might make just one br ief comment before closing, I think there is an interesting suggestion that was put forward by the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Car stairs) when the Bill was announced previously. lt was just a follow-up to Ms. Wasylycia-Leis' question that I think may be a positive step in terms of prevention, and in terms of resources in the community would be the idea of turning over the fines levied to community ba sed treatment resou rces ta rgeted to sn iff or educational services targeted against sniff.

I think if the com mittee is looking at reco mmendations or changes that may be in the purview of its scope, I think that might be certainly something that they should undertake. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Eyer. No more questions? We will go to the next presenter, Mr. Arne Peltz. Have you got a written presentation, Mr. Peltz? Mr. Arne Peltz (Pr ivate Citizen): No, Sir. I do not. Mr. Chairman: You may proceed. Mr. Peltz: Thank you.

I am app eari ng here this afternoon basically in a private capacity, but I feel very strongly about this particular legislation and I wanted to be on record as supporting this Bill. I have had some inv olv ement in the past as legal couns el for the organization that was referred to by some of the previous speakers, that is the Anti-Sniff Coalition of Winnipeg. First of all, I thought that it would be important to say that the political Parties should be commanded for co-operating as seems to be the case in supporting this Bill, even though it is a Private Member's Bill.

I take it that it has a good chance of succeeding and becom ing law and I really think that you should bend your efforts to make it law. There has been some discussion before you about whether this is a solution, and some doubts cast by the medical association about whether this is worthwhile doing. I thought I would try to share with you just a couple of thoughts on that. I have been a lawyer for about 15 years, and I have dealt with a lot of different issues, which were social issues, which also involved questions of legislation or jurisprudence.

I have taken lots of court ac tions for lots of different organizations and individuals. One thing I have learned I suppose is that the law is never a complete solution to anything. If that is what the MMA was meaning to say, then I suppose we can all agree with that and I certainly would. The question is whether this particular legislation can be part of the solution. That is the question I think you should be keeping in mind as this proceeds. On that score, I think you have heard enough both before and after that particular br ief from Dr.

Friesen to satisfy yourselves that this can be part of the solution. * (15 30) I read some of the Hansard statements, and I wanted to remind you of something that the Attorney General (Mr. McCrae) said on March 1 when this was in deba te, 29 because I think that it applies very much, and I endorse the statement: . . . it is incumb ent on us to provide an environment, as much as we can through our social services, to make the quality of life good, and wh ere we fail, and no one says we can deal 100 percent adequately with every probl em that ever comes along.

That bei ng the case, we have to have legislation like this. lt does not give us a great deal of pleasure to find ourselves in a position where we have to have legislation like this, but nonetheless we have to accept our responsibil ities as legislators in the Province of Manitoba. I think that is a short way of saying that the probl em cannot be ignored, and to the extent that you can address it, you ought to. I wanted to give you a very br ie( bit of history about some of the work of the Anti Sniff Coalit ion in the legal context going back to the mid- 1980s .

At that time, as a result of a great deal of hard work by many people in. the commun ity, the City of Winnipeg did pass a by-law which was a pioneering by-l aw. lt was in effect for a c ouple of years. lt was felt to have had a good effect. lt did not solve the prob lem but the feeling on the street was that it was helping qu ite a bit, I think it is also important for you to know. Then a decision cam e down from the cour ts questioning the jurisdiction of the city to pass legislation like this.

That decision in a case called Zeller's versus the Queen is a confusing decision. lt was a split decision of our Court of Appeal. I do not think it was right. The judges themselves were not sure amongst themselves in the course of the legal proceedings in three levels of court. Three judges disagreed and two agreed with the jurisdiction for the legislation. For reasons I have never been able to ascertain, the decision was not appealed further despite bei ng a split decision. I think it should have be en.

I was involved with the Anti-Sniff Coal ition in the mid 19 80s after that decision came down and the Winnipeg Anti-Sniff By-law was st ymied. In giving some advice on what could be done next, the first thing we did, since the court case rather seemed to suggest this was a federal area, was to write to the federal Government. Looking back in my file in prepara tion for this appearance, I saw the correspondence we had with the then Minister, Mr. Cot e, the federal Minister of Consu mer and Corpo rate Affairs.

We asked the federal Government to consider the seriousness of this problem and to use its existing legislation, the Hazar dous Products Act to move on the question. The answer we got back was that a retail merchant information program was being developed. lt has been referred to earlier. lt consists essentially of putting cards into the packing cases that the products come in to the retailer and advising the retailer that these are dang erous products which are open to abus e by children among others.

The federal Minister quite clearly declined to do anything further in terms of legislative enforcements. 1t seemed to me the refore -and I advi sed the coalition at that time that the other alternative was to go with provincial legislation, that is to say, health legislation which would be complementary though not

TLiesday, March 13 , 19 90 in conflict with what the federal Government was doing in its voluntary compliance program and information program. lt has taken a couple of years, but as you have heard, many people involved in the issue have continued to work on this because the issue has remained a pressing one. As a result you have Bill 91 before you. I bel ieve that it is good public health legislation for the Province of Manitoba, the way it was left open for provincial legislation if the federal Government declined to get specifically involved in regulating the sale of these types of products.

As a result I would urge you to pass the Bill through to committee, and hopefully it will pass in the House as well. Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Peltz. Any questions to Mr. Peltz? Ms. Wasylycia-Leis. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: Thank you, Mr. Peltz, for taking the time to make your presentation, and also to you as well for your years of contribution in making this hopefully a reality coming out of this legislative Session. I am wondering, do you think the climate has changed sufficiently over the last decade or so in terms of it bei ng perhaps saved from a jurisdictional constitutional challenge.

Do you think the fact that this Bill amends The Public Health Act and applies to the entire province gives it also some chance of avoiding the jurisdictional quagmire that was the ill-fated route that the city by law went through? Mr. Peltz: Yes, I think that a number of things have changed. One is that there have been in the past 10 years court decisions which have stressed the abili ty on cons titutional terms of the provi nces to pass complementary legislation.

This is a complicated federal system we live in, and I think there is a greater appreciation at the senior court levels for this type of legislation as long as it does not conflict with or attempt to override federal powers. Secondly, yes, I think that this is likely to be more successful than a city by-l aw. The courts are pretty quick to keep municipal legislators very strictly within their powers, and I think they regard the provinces as they are, sovereign legislators , as long as they do not entrench on federal powers. That would be a second consideration.

Thirdly, I think what was<unfortunate in the previous instance was that there was very little input into the courts from any of the interested community groups. In fact, in a very regrettable decision the judge of the Cour t of Appeal refused the Anti-Sniff Coalition leave to intervene and be heard in the Cour t of Appeal on the question of validity of the legislation. Now, that is the sort of thing that I bel ieve 10 years later would very likely not happen.

As well, the province itself has since that time set up its own Constitutio nal Law Branch, and I think that the defence in constitutional terms of these types of legislative efforts is much better now than it may have been in the past. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: In terms of the jurisdictional question, I never quite understood this issue, since it 30 is my unde rstan din g that the federal Hazard ous Products Act does not have the abili ty to restrict the sale of products and to bri ng into effect fines or sentences with respect to sale of products that are marked hazardous.

Is that correct, and on what other ba ses would it might be considered a constitutional problem or caught up in this jurisdictional question? Mr. Peltz: The de cision of two of the judges of the three sitting in the Court of Appeal was that, because the Hazardous Products Act dealt generally with the question of the sale of potentially hazardous products, the field was "occupied," and that therefore there is no room for a province to enter whatsoever.

Another judge in the Cour t of Appeal said that this was simply complementary and cited other authorities to the effect that as long as there was not a collision of legislative enactments, this was valid and open to the provinces. My own feeling was and is that the Cour t of Appeal majority was a little bit too quick and a little bit too superficial in looking at the probl em.

Quite frankly, with a greater effort in defence of this type of legislation from the Government-and of co urse this was not Government legislation at the time, it was a city by law, not a provincial enactment-and also with the participation of interest groups as is now the practice, the court would have a much deeper understanding of how these enactments actually relate to each other. I myself do not see any conflict between them. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: Mr. Cha irperson, I guess it is always a possibil ity that this law, if this Bill beco mes law, could be challenged by some entity in our society.

I have raised this with the Attorney General. One of the concerns my activists have is whether or not it will get tied up in the courts for years to come. If we have assurances, and I wish the Justice Minister was here because he has said he is committed to moving along any appeals as quickly as possible in terms of provincial power, is it a concern on your part that we could get tied up in the courts for a long time, and is tha t of some consolation to know that the province will do its part to move it as quickly as possibl e through the court system? Mr.

Peltz: lt was certainly a concern when Zeller's raised the challenge in the initial prosecution in provincial court that doubt was Cl'lsted for a long period after that on whethe r the pr ohi bitions were val id or not. Tha t ob viously puts everybody in some state of uncertainty which includes other retailers as well as the public. lt took 18 months in that case for the prosecution to go from the initial stage in provincial court through the court of appeal.

If the Government wishes to, if challenges are raised by accused retailers, for example, then it has open to it the option of a reference directly to the Court of Appeal. This is something that is used sparingly I think but sometimes is a good idea because it cuts through the intervening levels of court and gets directly to the province's highest court for a ruling. If the Attorney General stands beh ind the legislation, as I am sure he will, given his support on the record, and puts resources into its defence as I bel ieve is also implicit, then I think

Tuesday, March 13 , 1990 that is of some reassurance. If it becomes necessary because there appear to be delays in prosecution then I think the Government can consider a reference directly to the appeal court. Ms . Wasylycia-Leis: Yes, just on a final matter. You started off your remarks by indicating that if this legislation gets at part of the problem and provides a partial solution to the seriousness of solvent abus e then it is worth doing and certainly indicated that there is no pretensions on the community's part or anyone's part to belie ve that this will solve the entire problem.

Cer tainly I think that is the sense of MLAs around the table. We have co-ope rated around this piece of legislation, not because we are under any illusions that it will deal with the entire problem, but that it is a step in the right direction. • (1 540) I find it interesting that we have heard from the medical profession and heard that it is too difficult to enforce from a law enforcement regulation point of view, but yet we have heard from you today as a lawyer and as legal council for the Anti-Sniff Coal ition that if this addresses even a small part of the medical problem then it is well worth doing.

I just want to conclude by asking you if I have gathered your sense correctly, that you bel ieve attempts to curb a serious problem such as solvent abuse through legi sla tion, even though perhaps only pa rtially successful, is worth doing if it prevents some deaths and if it saves the health of some of our young people. Mr. Chairman: Did you want to respond to that, Mr. Peltz? Mr. Peltz: Yes, I will respond. I would no t come here to give an opinion on the medical issues. As you say, it is somewhat strange to hear a law enforcement opinion from the MMA.

I would like to say in response to your comments that, yes, you take my sense correctly. After this, the previous by-law was struck in the courts, people were still very active at the community level in dealing with this. I was approached several times by membe rs of the community and service agencies about particular flagrant violations of morality, I would say, by individuals in the inner city who were selling large quantities of these subs tances, obviously only. for the purpose of sniffing and not for building airplane models and the like. The question was, can anything be done about it legally?

As a result I looked at various options which included, for example, civil injunctions and the like which pare nts or conc erned citizens might take agai nst particular retailers. That I think explains two things; one, that there will always be some bad actors, so to speak, and a law can always deal with them in enforcement terms, if you want to talk about enforcement. lt is always helpful, and the police will probably comment on this as well, to have some mechanism to deal with those people.

The law may not be so sub tle that it can get at the it certainly cannot solve the social ills that are be hind 31 the sniff problem , but it can get at some of the problems, as for example those cases where in a ridiculous situation as a lawyer I was trying to work on a civil injunction to take against a retailer for doing something which really ought to have been against the penal provisions of our society. That is one example I think that it can be effective, used as a tool, as I expect it would be by agencies, by the police, and by the Government in a complementary fa shion with other programs. Mr.

Cheema: Mr. Peltz, I just want to thank you for your presentation, your work in the past and your legal advice. I have a concern regarding Cla use 27(1) under Subsec tion 4, that you have to keep the consent for six months and that is under the age of 18 . What will be the implications of sombody's repeated bu yer of these things and getting the consent, how do you follow up with them? Who will ultimately be responsible to clear through all those contacts? Mr.

Peltz: Are you referring to the provision that the sale can be made with consent, and you are asking what if a parent or guardian seems to keep giving the consent? Mr. Cheema: Consent, and you have to keep them for six months, but there is no provision for any follow up. Who will be ultimately responsible to make follow ups on those repeated consents? Mr. Peltz: I am not sure what you are getting at with your question. I think that, if what you are suggesting is that some parents might give the consent then I think that is a matter for child welfare authorities.

There are general duties under the Child and Family Services legislation to make a report if you suspect that there is an abus e situation or a child in need of protection.

The word gets around through the grapevine quite a bit and so I suppose if you are saying that there might be a situation where parents gave the consent, I do not think that would be good parenting and it would probably be red flagging the serious problem in that home. lt is true that this Bill allows the sale if there is a consent, but of course that is part of the picture which we have all talked about that it will stop some sales, it will save some lives and other situations would have to be dealt with through other means. Mr. Chairman: Any more questions, Mr. Cheema? Thank you, Mr. Peltz.

Any more questions to Mr. Peltz? Thank you for your presentation. We will go to the next presenter, Mr. Lee Debar eau, West Br oad way Res ident Associa tion. Mr. Lee Deba reau. He is not here? Sergeant AI Car on, City of Winnipeg Police Department. Mr. AI Caron (City of Winnipeg Police Department): I would like to thank you on behalf of myself and the Winnipeg Police Department for this opportunity to address Bill 91 here today. Although some of my information may touch briefly on information already brou ght before you by other presenters, I think it is

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 important that you hear from the perspective of the police department as well. We as a police agency recognize that the abus e of these substances by both adults and the youth of today has a serious health, social and environmental impact on our community.

Within the Province of manitoba we as a police department have, since the early 19 60s, relied on the Ju venile Delinq uents Act to com bat the problem, holding that intoxicating substance abus e fell within the definition of a "sexual immorality or some similar vice." lt was in the late 19 70s that it was a defence position that sniffing was not a similar vice as defined by the Juvenile Delinquents Act.

A subsequent Manitoba Court of Appeal decision struck down the use of the Juvenile Delinquents Act and with the implementation of the Young Offenders Act, no further recourse was offered. lt was in September of 19 79 that the City of Winnipeg Council enacted the Anti-Sn iff By-law, which was cons tantly under criticism by defens e lawyers, manufacturers and retailers. who all stated that the by law was prohibi tive in nature and thereby fell outside of the City of Winnipeg's jurisd iction.

Several prosecutions were undertaken of persons and companies but on the 5th of March, 19 82, the Manitoba Court of Appeal allowed an appeal by Zellers Lim ited which effect ively qua shed the by-l aw. His Honour Judge Norton held that the by-law in pith and substance dealt with criminal law and therefore was not within the legislative competence of the Cit y of Winnipeg. Once there was no longer any specific legislation to combat the problem , we as police officers could only focus our attention on the users and not the sellers.

When children are found intoxicated by the effects of a sniff product they can be apprehended as a "child in need of protection" under provisions of The Child and Family Services Act. If there is no parent or guardian available, the Child and Family Services agency can place the child at the Seven Oaks Centre for Youth if space is availabl e.

Should the young person show extreme signs of intoxication, we can also detain the youth for his or her safety at the Manitoba Youth Centr e under provisions of The Intoxicated Persons Detention Act, but only until the effects of the substance ab use have dissipated and with no provisions for follow-up treatment. These would all appear to only be short term solutions for a much deeper problem. Over the course of the last 15 months our department has initiated two prosecutions under the Hazardous Products Act.

This was to address a problem whereby certain unscrupulous individuals were buyi ng large quantities of paint thinner, rebo ttling the substance into small unlabelled orange juice containers in order to sell them to youngsters to sniff. * (15 50) The charge laid was failing to comply with the labelli ng requirements as set out in the Act, such as, vapour harmful, poison and the first-aid instructions. 32 The first prosecution resulted in a guilty plea on Februa ry 6 of this year, and the individual was fined $2,500.00. lt is interesting to note that Judge Norton in handing down his decision deplored the lack of legislation regulating the sale of the subs tance which he states is used as a cheap subs titute for alcohol or drugs and indicated that the accused was trafficking in this form of su bstance.

As you can see the Hazardous Products Act was not drafted for this purpose but more as to regulate the manufacturers of these products. Rather than resort to such legislation, we as a police department would much rather enforce specific legislation designed to combat the abus e of inhalants. Bearing in mind that most adult sniff addicts today began sniffing as children, we the Winnipeg Police Department support Bill 91 which will govern the sale and distribution of the intoxicating substances to these young people. However, there are certain additions we feel are required to enhance the effect of Bi1191.

These minor changes would make it easier for us to enforce and would better serve the community. In regard to the first portion of definition, on this one point we would have to agree with the Manitoba Medical Association's argument regarding the identification of the intoxicating substances. Shortcomings of the earlier legislation were the inabili ty of sellers to determine which specific subs tances were of concern. We are suggesting that the following

definitions be considered as alternatives to the proposed

definitions: (

a) adhesives, cleaning solvents, thinning agents and dyes containing toluene or acetone, or (

b) petroleum distillates or products containing petroleum distillates including naphtha, mineral spirits, Stoddard solvent, kerosene, gasoline, mineral seal oil and other related distillates of petroleum, or fingernail polish remover contai ning acetone or aliphatic acetates, or any substance that is required under the provisions of the Hazardous Products Act to bear the label, vapour harmful, vapour very harmful, vapour extremely harmful, or any subs tanc e decl ared to be an intoxicat ing substance by order of the Lieutenant-Governor-in Counci l.

Another area that seems important to us was that it seemed ironic that we as police ob serving a young person under the age of 18 years in a public place consuming or in possession of liquor, have the power to arrest, charge and seize the alcoholic beverage.

This same youth now in a public place holding a sniff-laden rag to his face, inhaling the toxic fumes in order to induce the euphoria, can only be turned over to Child and Family Services. lt ·is, therefore , sug gested tha t any pro posed legislation would include making it an offence for a person under the age of 18 years to have in their possession any intoxicating subs tance for the purposes of inhalation. We as police officers would have to provide the necessary evidence that would give rise to a reasonable inference that these intoxicating substances were to be used as an inhalant.

As well, no person under the age of 18 years would be allowed to consume any intoxicating subs tances in a public place.

Tuesday , March 13, 1990 By involving the court system, more flexibil ity is then offered as to how the youth may be handled, as a fine would be a deterrent of sorts. Work is presently under way drafting provincially The Young Offenders Act which could provide the court the latitude to order probation or treatment of young persons found guilty of any provincial statute.

Definitions for the term consuming and public place wou ld also have to be provided for. With regard to the exceptions

Section 27.1(3), we suggest the addition of a paragraph (

e) which could read as follows: (

e) where the intoxicating substance is to be used as a fuel source and is placed directly into the equipment's fuel reservoir. This would provide the legitimate selling of petroleum products to young persons to fuel cars, motorcycles, cook stoves, any other such equipment providing the fuel was suppl ied directly to the equipment's fuel tank. As for the legitimate selling of the product to young people, it is suggested that in addition to

Section 27.1(3) that there would be no defence that the accused thought the purchaser was over the age of 18 years unless all reasonable steps had been taken to ascertain his age.

Section 27.1(4) which requires the seller to retain the written consent form for a period of at least six months and to make it available for subsequent inspection by a publi c health inspector could be improved upon by including inspection by a peace officer as wel l. Besides legitimate purchases, it has been found that a source of the intoxicants for young people has been through shoplifting. lt is, therefore, essential to regulate the accessibili ty of the product.

Section 27 .1(5) of the Bill appears to address this concern, but we may want to limit the restrictions to containers of one litre or less, as any larger containers are less likely to be shoplifted. As for

Section 27.1(6) of the chemic al analysis requirements, concerning the court's determination of the evidence of nature of the subs tance, we would want to see the legislation to provide analysis requirements for unlabel led containers of intoxicating substan ces seized. These could be similar in nature to those now employed in The Liquor Control Act whereby the tendering of a certificate of analysis or a certificate of a qualified technician stating that a chemical analysis had been made of the subs tance, and that in the absence of any evidence to the contrary would be proof of the contents of the substance.

A definition for a qualified technician would also have to be provided for. As for the penalty, we feel strongly that in order to deter ind ividuals from this act ivity they mus t be meaningful. As for the user, fines similar to those now in place for br eaches of The Liquor Control Act would be in order as they now pertain to the minor consume and minor possess. We would also hope that the newly drafted provincial Young Offenders Act would allow the courts flexibi lity in ordering probation and or counselling for convictions under the provincial statutes.

We agree with the proposed penalties for the supplier of these subs tances. These recommendations are made from the perspective of the Winnipeg Police Department 33 and as part of the community at large concerned with the sniffing problem. While the implementation of Bill 91, including these sugge sted enhancements , may not erad icate the problem completely, it is felt that it represents a positive step forward in the battle against intoxicating substance ab use. Mr. Chairman: Thank you for your presentation. Any questions? Ms. Wasylycia-Leis. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Thank you, Sergeant Caron, for your very detailed presentation of incredible analysis done of Bill 91 and some very significant suggestions made with respect to that Bill. All of it has not sunk in yet, so I am going to ask a few questions around some of your suggestions. First though, I would like to just ask a couple of general questions. lt is interesting, as I said to the previous presenter, that the medical profession, or at least the Manitoba Medical Association, had come to us arguing against the Bill because of law enforcement legal arguments.

You have come to us today with a thorough analysis in your capacity as someone who represents law enforcement in our province. We certainly appreciate that contribution. I had not realized that under The Hazardous Products Act it actually had led to prosecutions. I had forgotten that development.

So what you are saying through this presentation is that it is possibl e under The Hazardous Products Act to actually get after those individuals who are deliberately buying this stuff in bulk, repackaging it and selling it in small quantities, probably for large amounts of money, to those who are vulnerable and addicted to the subs tance, and in those cases you are able to-if you can track it all down and put it all toge ther-a ctually pr osecute under the federal Hazardous Products Act. *

(1600) Mr. Caron: Yes. As I say, we did initia te two prosecutions. This only pertains though to the actual selling of unlabelled containers where this would not affect any retailers or licensed retailers of the product. These are individuals who will buy 17, 18 cases of paint thinner, acquire a large numb er of these small orange juice containers with the label removed, rebottle it into these- I think they are 234 millil itre bottle s-and then sell them for app roximately $6 or $7 each to young people. They will charge them an extra dollar if they do not bring their own bottle as a deposit.

So to attack tha t pa rti cular problem, we use the label ling and performance requirements that were laid out in The Hazardous Products Act, but that is, as I say, strictly for the labe lling requirements only. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I appreciate the clarification. As you indicate in your brie f, the judiciary has already commented on the lack of legislation in this regard and in fact you have indicated how your hands are tied in terms of dealing with the problem. Before I get into some of your suggestions, could I ask you how you would feel if Bill 91 passed ba sically

TUesday, March 13, 1990 as it is now drafted? Would it be seriously deficient in your regard or would it give you some abil ity to get at this problem? Mr. Caron: I think it would offer some abili ty to get at the problem . However, as your earlier point made mention of, we are getting bogged down in the courts on a lot of technical issues that may have be en, as an oversight, not put into the Bill. My personal opinion is that is how it would be, it would be tied up in the courts for a long period of time.

That is why the suggestion for the certain enhancements which would at least help to negate some of those possible arguments that might be presented. Ms. Wasylyc ia-Leis: Let me ask a few questions about your proposed suggestions on page 5 with respect to the listing of the products, since that is an issue that has been raised previously. lt has been mentioned as a major concern of the MMA. Can I start with asking you abo ut your suggestion around (

a) and your wording of adhesives, cleaning solvents, thinning agents and dyes containing toluene or acetone? My question would be, how that improves upon the wording under (

a) in the present Bill 91. Mr. Caron: The reason for the slight change there is adhesiv es sort of encomp asses all the glues and cements mentioned in (a). As well, it also includes thinning agents, which as I said was something that was being used by these individuals selling 3M paint thinner. Because of that we have included the thinning agents, because they all contain toluene and acetone, which are the active ingredients that are so prone to substance ab use. Did you want me to go through each

section and explain? Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Please. That would be useful. Mr. Caron: As for (

b) in the present Bill No. 91, it was perhaps too specific, in that it sort of did not allow for all the other petroleum distillates that are subject to abus e. We feel that using this similar wording, which is also the similar wording that is used in the Hazardous Products Act to encompass it, we sort of cover all the petroleum distillates that could be subject to abus e. As you can see, (

c) is the same as what Bill No. 91 already had. For (d), as I said, the Hazardous Products Act does have label ling requirements for all of these products. The labe lling requirements require that these products, because they are open to abuse, have to be labelled: vapour harmful, vapour very harmful and extremely harmful. We felt this would also be a catch all should any of these other products not fall within that and were not covered by the Hazardous Products Act. lt also is a good indicator to the retailers to sort of twig their attention to the subs tances that they should be concerned with.

As for paragraph (e), it is sort of a catch-all. As new subs tances, new products are developed and brought into the marke tpla ce the Lieutenant-Gov ernor-in Counc il would be able to add and make additions to the Bill. 34 Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Thank you. I appreciate that clarification. Are you saying that those suggestions, in terms of catching all the other products that were not specifically identified in the original Bill, is a better way to go than the (

d) on page 2 of Bill 91, which talks about any subs tance which emits, gives off, produces a gas, vapour, fume or liquid that is specified by regulation as an intoxicating substance for the purposes of this section, which was put in there as sort of a catch-all kind of category? Mr. Caron: With (d), not being a lawyer I had some trouble understanding what the liquid that is specified by regulation-! was not sure if you were referring to the regulation of this Act itself or another regulation or what.

So that was the reason for trying to have a catch-all phrase, I was not sure-the fact that it emits or gives off a gas or vapour. There are probably a lot of different products that are not subject to abuse that may give off these vapours or emit fumes, et cetera, which would seem to even reach a far wider range of products in the marketplace. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Just for clarification then, what you are saying is the (

d) in the present Bill 91 might possibly lead to covering a far wider range of products than actually is possible in terms of the way you have listed the areas to be covered. Mr. Caron: That is my opinion, yes. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Just one other clarification on that page 5, I think what you are saying is that retailers are now used to the labelling procedures through the federal Hazardous Products Act and therefore anything that builds on that scheme or that regime, in terms of using those labels and making it part of that whole prohibition or regulation exercise is a useful way to go in terms of present understanding. Mr. Caron: That is absol utely correct. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Let me just pursue one more area before I turn it over, and then I will come back to some other questions once I think through the rest of your paper. The question of the user is certainly one that we have talked about and thought about a lot. The present Bill 91 was designed around the specific and deliberate intention not to actually go after the user or, as we were saying, the victim. That is the recommendation that has come out of the Anti-Sniff Coal ition, the People Against Solvent Ab use. I think it emerges from the position that: (

a) if we can start dealing with the distribution and sale of the products then we will have at least made a terrific step towards reducing the use of these products and the number of victims that fall by the way as a result and; (

b) that it gets at the wrong part of the problem. lt puts the blame on the vulnerable individual who has, for a whole lot of reasons, particularly poverty, abus e and so on, tu rned to solvent abus e. I throw that out in terms of the ba ckground leading to Bill 91. I would certainly appreciate your comments

Tuesday , March 13, 1990 in response to that and your feelings about how important you think it is that this Bill actually include something pertaining to a sentencing mechanism to go after the user. Mr. Caron: I would not actually say, to go after the user. I think what we were actually hoping for there, with the proposed drafted changes to the provincial Young Offenders Act, was that it would afford us somewhat more flexibil ity to order these individuals, who are habitual users, who we run into all the time, to get them into some kind of a counselling or treatment facility.

Sometimes, if the Child and Family Services worker asks that this child attend a certain counselling program there is really no power or authority to ensure that this young person keeps atten ding to this couns ellor,

whereas, if it was court ordered through the courts the individual would be more inclined to keep attending. You would have probably a better chance of success. Ms . Wasylycia-Leis: Are there any other ways now in which, through the legal system, it is possible to actually ensure that those users or victims get the proper treatment or attention? Mr. Caron: No, not to my knowledge. Ms . Wasylycia-Leis: I will pass for now and come back to some more questions later. Mr.

Ch eema: Sergeant Caron, first of all I want to thank you for your presentation and also for the excellent anti-drug war the police department has taken for the last 18 months. We commend you for that. I think you have probably answered my question on page 7, that I was asking Mr. Peltz, who is going to be ultimately responsible to follow-up these clients or whatever term you want to use? I think by including a police officer would help a long way. Still, I just wanted to ask you, who will be notifying the Child and Family Services and what will be the mechanism in the future? What do you use now?

How do you refer these cl ients now? Wha t are your regulations in terms of what will the responsibili ty of the owner of the store be to notify you or the Department of Health, because this

section does not really clarify anything whether they have to notify or not. Mr. Caron: I think basically the way the retailer would come to our attention would be by the fact that coming across a young person who was under the effects of a sniff product or actually consuming a sniff product. By virtue of interviewing, he or she we would determine where that sniff product was originally obtained, would then go back to the retailer to see if that sale was done legitimately.

If it was done legitimately with the consent form as laid out in the Bill 91, we would then go back to the parent to see why that consent form was given when it was subject to abus e, and then in turn would notify Child and Family Services. • (1610) 35 Mr. Ch eema: Mr. Car on, I think it is going to create a lot of work for the police force just to keep on having it traced for these people who are using this stuff rather than we should make it a provision to make sur e that the polic e department and the Department of Public Health get one copy of the information so that you know where to go.

You must know the target area rather than-y ou look for the target first and then you go and app roach the owners. This sect ion really leaves everything open. Can you clarify how we can improve on that? Mr. Caron: If I understand you correctly, you are saying that every time a supposed sheet is filled out of consent forms they wou ld be forwarded to the pol ice department. Mr. Cheema: Yes. Mr.

Caron: I feel we woutd have a lot of legitimate retailers who would be going in line with Bill 91 and following it as subscri bed . lt would not actually require the necessity of us perusing all those documents and consent forms to make sure they are compliant. The ones we would be in concern with are the one s that would come to our attention as a result of hearing that children had obtained those products through them without the consent forms. Those would be the ones we would be targeting. We are talking an awful lot of stores, department stores, hardware stores.

You can probably find intoxicating substanc es sold in just about every store in Winnipeg. To track all those records being forwarded to us, I think it would be a little bit more than we could handle. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Caron, can you tell me if your department is at present satisfied with the follow-up you get with the Depart ment of Health, how the rehabili tation program and other services are bei ng provided, and what do you suggest should be done? Mr. Caron: Frankly, that is a little out of my area. I am really not sure. I could not answer on that. Mr. Chairman: Dr. Cheema, no more questions? Dr. Cheema. Mr.

Cheema: Yes, Mr. Caron, on page 8 of your presentation you have made reference to a definition of a qualified technician would have to be provided for in the legislation. Can you clarify that point? Mr. Caron: Well, similar as to in The Liquor Control Act where a . certificate would be accepted as proof positive of the substanc e, there was a definition that was required for which the court could rely upon that evidence of that certificate. We felt that The Publi c Health Act, unless it already has such a definition contained, would also require that same provision. Mr. Cheema: Thank you. Mr.

Chairman: That is it for you? Ms. Wasylycia-Leis. Ms . Wasylycia-Leis: Let me just ask a few more questions on your proposals. On page 7 with respect

Tuesday, Marc h 13, 1990 to the proposed recommendation to add a

section (

e) to

Section 27. 1, that as I understand it is specifically to ensure that there is sufficient provision for gas station operators who need a large supply of fuel for whatever purpose. Mr. Caron: Basically the intent there was to provide for if a 16 -year-old young man has his dad's car for the night and goes and gets gas at a gas station, the individual selling him the gas and putting it into his tank could not be subject to these provisions because the boy would not have a consent form. This is sort of to allow for the fact that becaus e he does not have a consent form and someone is selling him gasoline, which would come under one of the

definitions, it would not be an offence. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Whether we are looking at your suggestion in terms of dealing with that category or the one in the present Bill, it is your understanding that gasoline or in particular unleaded gasoline does contain the chem icals tha t were delineated as bei ng the intoxicating subs tance. In other words, it is a long, roundabout way of saying that you clearly see gasoline as being included in either model in terms of an intoxicating substance. Mr. Caron: Yes, that is correct, that is how I ascertain it. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: You mentioned on page 8-1 just want to go over again, 27. 1(6). There has been a suggestion made-w e have had some discussions with the Attorney General about a change in wording that would allo w for proper defence and be consistent with Ch arter of Rights and Freedoms. I just wanted to get your sense of that suggested wording. Basically, it is as written with Sections (a), (

b) and (

c) but changing the intro to basically information or wording appearing (a), (b ), (c), and then adding the sentence: in the absence of evidence to the contrary, proof of a nature of the substance. Can you give me, on that quick reading, your sense of that wording with respect to 27. 1 Subsect ion (6)? Mr. Caron: Let us see if I follow you correctly. You are saying that as it pertains to (a), (

b) and (

c) in 27. 1 sub (6), if it indicated as to any information to the absenc e if it was not showing on the container itself, would still be proof that it was in fact intoxicating substance. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Basically, yes, it adds a qualifier that in the absence of evidence to the contrary it is proof of the nature of the substance. In other words, it gives it apparently a defence that is required in terms of consistency with the Cha rter and individual rights and freedoms. Do you see any problem with that wording as I have explained it? Mr.

Caron: Not as it pertains to the actual labelled containers that are being sold. I guess our largest concern, because that is what we have been dealing with lately, have been the unlabelled containers and that and having those substance s- like when we seize an unlabel led container we have to prove to the courts 36 that it is in fact an intoxicating substance, so that is where we require that analysis to be done. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: In order to do what you are suggesting needs to be done- I do not belie ve you are suggesting a specific amendment to this area, or are you?

Could you explain how you would like to see 27. 1(6) changed to actually deal with that particular issue? Mr. Caron: lt could actually be a change to 27. 1(6) or adding a sub (7) of the

section just regarding the chem ical anal ysis req uir ements for su bstances suspected to be intoxicating subs tances which were not labelle d . Mr. Chairman: Any more questions? Ms. Wasylycia Leis. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: What basically you are saying, Sergeant Caron, is that it requires some change to 27. 1, either as an amendment to the existing or an additional category being added. Mr. Caron: Yes, that is correct as it pertains to unlabel led- Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: I just want to, jus t before I ask a couple of final questions, again express our thanks for the detailed presentation and say that we will be, if time permits, looking at the suggested amendments very seriously. Just a final sort of comment and question, could you give us your sense and your experience in terms of the police force with the kind of dimensions of the problem we are dealing with and how you run across it on a day-to-day basis? Mr.

Caron: Being in the Youth Division where I operate out of, we pretty well run across it just about every tour of duty, as the majority of runaways that we deal with from certain lower socioeconomic ba ckgrounds and that are dealing in the sniff and are chronic sn iff users. Those same kids also then come to our attention as getting involved as delinquents with regard to shoplifting and moving up the ladder to big ger and better cri mes as time goes on.

Also, there are the adult snifters themselves who, as they become adult snifters, usually turn on their little sisters and little brothers, and it seems to be a self-perpetuating thing which seems to have no end. On just about a weekly basis we are dealing with vast numb ers of chronic snifters in the city. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Is it your sense that if we made it really hard to get access to these products that young people especially and adu lts as well would turn toward more dangerous products, or with your suggestions have we covered off the variety of products, the bulk of the products that are dangerous in terms of solvents and addictions in this regard? Mr. Caron: I feel that we have pretty well go tten the dangerous subs tances that are subject to ab use. I am sure, as I said earlier, there will always be new products

TUesday, March 13, 1990 and that entering the marketplace which will be subject to abuse, but by virtue of allowing for the Lieutenant Governor-in-Cou ncil to address those as they come forward, the Bill in itself should be able to combat the problem to a certain extent. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: In your experience, do you see that the problem of solvent abus e is isolated in terms of the inner city, or is it generally a widespread problem in terms of all parts of the city in all geographic locations around the province? Mr.

Caron: lt has been my experience to be more of a central ized issue in the lower socioec onomic ba ckground people bec oming involved in it and from informa tion I have heard as wel l as other areas throughout the province that have the similar type backgrou nd. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Just finally, in terms of your experience in this whole area, do you think that there will be a hue and cry from the retail sector of our community with respect to this kind of legislation if we do bring it into force? Mr.

Caron: I would anticipate some resistance in that there will be extra work required by the retailers and that to get in line with Bill No. 91. I think they as well as the rest of us are concerned with the health of the citizens in Manitoba and our young people and should by that same token want to see Bill No. 91 enforced and would hopefully give it their bac king. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Just to end with again thanking you for taking the time to make this presentation, hopefully time will permit us to go over the paper in more detail and consult with you about improving Bill No. 91 to make it as effective as possible. Thank you. * (16 20) Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Sergeant Caron , for your presentation. Any more questions? If not, thank you for your presentation. Mr. Praznik. Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): I just wanted to add from our side to your presentation. We had an opportun ity to hear comments by the MMA at the last sitting of the committee- Mr. Chairman: Mr.

Praznik, pull your mike a little closer. Mr. Praznik: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. We are certainly also very glad to hear your comments and your very positive suggestions which I am sure will lead to some very useful amendments to this Bill. Mr. Chair man: Thank you, Sergeant Caron for your presentation. We will ask the next presenter, Mr. Wayne Helgason. Mr. Wayne Helgason is not here. Is there anybody else who would like to make presentations to Bill No. 91? If not, we will go to Bill No. 95 -Mr . Robert McGowan. 37 BILL NO. 95- THE CERTIFIED GENER AL ACCOUNT ANTS ACT Mr. Chairman: Is Mr.

Robert McGowan here for Bill 95? Mr. Mark O'Neill, Certified General Accountants Association. Mr. Mark O'Neill (C ertified General Accountants Association ): Good afternoon. I appear this afternoon as couns el for the Certified General Accountants Association. Mr. Len Hampson, who is the executive director, is also present, and he will be available to answer any technical questions you may have after the presentation. I am pleased to advise that we are here today in sup port of Bill No. 95, in suppor t also of some amendments that we understand will be moved by Mr. Praznik, who moved the Bill in the first place.

We are in support of those amendments, as we understand they will be moved at a later date. I should explain right off the top though that the amendments deal with Cl auses 10 and the definition clause at the be ginning. Cla use 10 will no longer be in the Bill. We are not opposed to that amendment. The definition section, which refers in the French side to a Certified General Accountant as a "comptab les general agrees" will be amended to say "comptables general licencies." The other amendments are housecleaning and I will not deal with them at this time.

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, I am sure when you first embarked on your political careers and decided to get into public life that at the top of your list of things to accomplish would not be ensuring that professional standards were met in the accountancy field. However, it is our subm ission that the proposed legislation which is before you, which deals with the self-gov ern ance of a pr ofes sion in Manitoba, is legislation which is particularly relevant for the 19 90s. Regulation of professions is important these days as a matter of the public interest.

As professionals are getting more and more involved in the day-to-day lives of individuals, obviously the self-governance of those professionals becomes more important. This legislation along with other self-governance legislation is to ensure that professional standards are met by the members and therefore we submit that this is essential legislation that should pass during this Session.

This legislation deals with CGAs, Certified General Accountants, and I would like to just take a second to explain to the Members of the committee, those of you who are still here, some prel iminary matters that are essential in order to understand the legislation and its purpose. You have probably heard of three different types of accountants: CAs, CMAs and CGAs. That is Chartered Accountants, Cer tified Mana gement Accountants and Certified General Accountants, the people for whom I appear today. The Char tered Accountants are involved in all forms of accounting.

That is public accounting, which includes auditing and review; priv ate accou nting; and

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 Government accounting. The CMA s are involved mainly in management and cost accounting, while the Certified General Accountants are involved also in all aspects of accou nting: public, pr ivate and go vernment. Although they have not been as active in the area of public accounting as the CAs in the past, as many as 26 percent of the practitioners who are CGAs practise in the public accounting field. The educational ob jective of the CGAs is to provide training in all the areas of the profession.

Only a high school education is required, although most of the CGAs these days are university grads. Work experience is also required in addition to the rigorous five and two thirds years of study in order to beco me a Certified General Accountant. Although there is only a minimum of two years practical experience required, normally a lot more than this takes place and indeed the average practical experience of last year's graduating class was eight years. After the education and training level, CGAs are then subject to review by the CGAA, which is the Cer tified General Accountants Association.

There are mandatory continuing education courses to be taken in order to maintain a CGA Certifi cate. The CGA mem ber firms, in order to practise their reviews, are required to carry professional liabil ity insurance. lt should be noted that CGAs must apply to the association prior to providing publi c accou nting services in order that they are approved by the CGAA. Indeed this legislation deals with that sort of governance.

There is a rigorous educational work experience program that must be met, and this professional body has ensured and wants to be able to continue to ensure tha t those standards are met in the future. This particular legislation that is before you is important The CGAA, the association, was incorporated by a private Act as a professional body of acco untants and auditors, and it was estab lished in 19 73 as a result of a private Act drafted by Mr. Cherniak. At that time there were only 300 members of the Certified General Accountants Association.

The y were a small group within the body of accountants in Manitoba. Now there are 1, 900 members practising in Manitoba. They are part of a 36,000 member group, the CGAA of Canada. We are not dealing with jus t a small bunch of professionals. This is a very important group that provides accounting services throughout the province at every level. At the time that the legislation was drafted which, as I indicated, was only by a private Act, we were dealing in a completely different professional reality. There were very few women involved in the profession at that time.

The Ch arter of Rights had not yet been pass ed. Specialization was rarely heard of. A great body of administrative law had not yet passed through our court system. As a result, many changes have had to be made to the Act. A stu dy, through the board of governors of the CGAA, was prepared. The board of governors in 19 87 directed that proposed legislation be enacted. Meetings took place with the Attorney General on October 19, 19 88, and the first draft for this Bill was presented. If the Members wish, we can go through the major provisions of the Bill.

The purposes are really simply 38 to ensure that the governing body has the authority to conduct governance of its members and to ensure that those members are provided with a process through which that governance will take place, that they will be able to attend the meetings. They will be notified of any disciplinary process. They will be notified in advance of the standards that are required to be met, and that the body of the association itself will be able to set those standards to be met by its members.

The idea in that sense is to protect the public certainly and to provide due process to the members of the CGAA. The rest of the Act simply identifies the body , provides the by-la w making powers to the association, so that it can carry on with its governance. Now that the two controversial sections are no longer involved in the legislation, and it is our understanding that certainly the Ch artered Accountants Association is not opposed to our proceeding with this legislation today, we submit that this is app ropriate legislation to be passed immediately.

If it not passed in this Session, the difficultv we face is that we have a Private Memb er's Act that has to be translated immediately or it will die. lt is one that should not be translated in that form in that it is an old Act that requires updating at any rate, and it is just going to be amended in the next Session, so it is going to take a great deal of wasted Legislative Counsel's time and drafters' time. We would like to see the Act proceed as proposed to be amended and to be passed during this Session. Mr. Chairman: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Helgason. Mr.

Praznik.- (interjection)- Pardon me, I am sorry-Mr . O' Neill. Mr. Darren Praznik {lac du Bonnet): Mr. Chairman, just a couple of br ief questions to Mr. O' Neill to clarify for Members of the committee, there were two particular clauses in this Bill, or provisions, one with respect to the name, the other with respect to the authorization to conduct audits.

I understand that an agreement has been reached between !he Ins titute of Char tered Accountants and the organization you represent as to appropriate amendments to deal with each, one being the deletion of that Cla use 10, and the other a suitable change in the name and a French version, and that is agreed to by both organizations? • (1 630) Mr. O'Neill: Yes, both organizations have agreed to withdra w-our organ ization has agreed to do the withdrawing of

Section 10 and changing the word "agrees" to "licencies". The other amendments that we proposed are simply housecleaning amendments. Mr. Pra:znik: Just to comment brie fly, I would like to take this opportunity to thank both of your organizations for their efforts in the last week or so to arrive at an agreement that would suit both organizations and allow us as legislators to proceed with this Bill and not be enga ged in-y ou know, where ver you have two associations in the same pr ofession, there are always areas where there are competing interests. I would like to just com plime nt both organ izations and their rep resentativ es on bei ng able to work out those

Tuesday , March 13, 1990 differences for this committee, so that we could proceed with this Bill with general support of both associations. Thank you. Mr. O'Neill: I would like to then to thank the committee for going so long the other day, so that we ended up resolving the matter as it took a few more days to get before you. Mr.

Richar d Kozak (Transcona): I also would like to of fer my respects, both to the Certified General Accountants Association and the Institute of Char tered Accounta nts, for pr esenting this comm ittee with valuable, intensively thought-out brie fs which have been very helpful to the committee in its consideration. I wou ld like to exp ress some dismay that the Government in its wisdom did not bring the two organizations together prior to this time, so that we would not now have to consider amendments at all. ***** Mr. Chairman: On a point of order, Mr. Praznik? On a point of order. Mr.

Praznik: Yes, the Member for Transcona (Mr. Kozak) refers to the Government. I would just clarify that this is not a Government Bill. 11 is a Private Member's Bill which I brought forward. lt is totally divorced from the operations of the Government. Mr. Ch airman: Tha t is not a point of order . A clarification is not a point of order. ***** Mr. Chairman: Mr. Kozak, you may proceed with questioning the presenter. Mr. Kozak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The certified general accountants do indicate to us that the primary reason for the review which resulted in this Bill was to remedy difficulties which had been experienced in the disciplinary process. Mr. O' Neill, were your last com ments in you r presentation directly explanatory of the difficulties that had been encountered which led to this Bill? In other words, Mr. O'Neill, I am referring to your comments with regard to specifying the process in detail for greater fairness and opening the process, so that both the public and practitioners within the association could both be treated more fairly. Mr.

O'Neill: I am not certain what the question is. Is the question, what difficulties have we encountered? Perhaps Mr. Hampson could address that a little more properly.

I think part of the intent of the legislation though, if I may submit, is that to avoid any sort of problems in the future, given since 19 73 there has been a great deal of change in the body of administrative law, and given the Ch arter of Rights which has been enacted since that time to ensure that anybody who does appear before a board or is subject to either 39 discipline or I he rules of the association in determining how they will practise, whether they will practise and in what manner they may specialize at some time, that they are given due process, and that the public is aware of that. lllil r.

Kozak: The presenter's answer to my question is fully satisfactory. I note that a compromise has been achieved which would make a change to the Bill relative to the name of the association in its French form, and a compromise has been achieved which will eliminate Cla use 10. Mr. Chairman, my col leagues in the Opposition certainly would like the record to show that we approve of these changes, in particular with regard to the change proposed via deletion of Cl ause 10 .

We would like the reco.rd to show that this Legislature is certainly not competent to express an opinion as to the qualifications or professional practices of any association. We thank the presenters for achieving an accommodation which will exempt us from the need to pass an opinion on the qualification of any professional practitioner within the accounting profession in the province. I do, however, have a couple of br ief questions with regard to Cla use 22.

Cl ause 22 specifies that: "No action may be brought against the board, a board member, a committee or a member of a committee or an officer of the board or against an officer, official, employee or agent of the association for actions done or decisions taken in go od faith under this Act or on account of a procedural irregularity or defect of form in proceedings of the board or a committee." I would like Mr. O' Neill to suggest to us whether in his view Cl ause 22 is necessary to the orderly functioning of the association. Mr. O'Neill: Yes, absolut ely. Firstly, let me point out that this particular

section is a standard form

section in professional governance legislation. Indeed The Law Society Act in

Section 77 has a very similar provision. The reason for this provision is to protect members of the association who are acting-o nly if they are acting in good faith, let us remember-who are acting in good faith pursuant to this legislation from being sued for mistakes. it is not to say that if they do anything fraudu lent that they are protected by this legislation. Indeed any member who appears before the board at any rate has an appeal on a disciplinary matter to the Queen's Bench as provided in

Section 23( 1) . That is to protect individuals and the board itself from being sued for carrying out the provisions of this legislation, for being sued or having action brought against them if they make a legitimate mistake. * (1 640) Mr. Kozak: I note two difficulties with the opinion that the presenters just provided. The first difficulty-and I would hope you would address it-is that

Article 23(1) provides for appeal only in the case of disciplinary action, not in the case of, for example, refusal of certification to a potential certified general accountant. I note too that

Article 22 does not only protect the association in the event of decisions taken in good faith

TUesday, March 13, 1990 un der thi S Act , but also goes on to pr otect the association in the event of decisions taken, which involve a proc edural irreg ul arity or defective form in proceedings of the boar d or a committee. Now, it does occur to me that the words that follow "good faith under this Act" and that start with "or on account of a procedural irregularity" do suggest that there is an exception to the general requirement that the board is protected only in the event of good-faith decisions.

In short, it is not only decisions taken in good faith under this Act which the association is offered protection for, but also decisions involving procedural irregularities or defect of form in proceedings of the board or a committee. If the only intent of

Article 22 was to endorse good-faith decisions, why does

Article 22 go on to say ". . . or on account of a procedural irregularity or defect of form in proceedings of the board or a committee." Mr. O'Neill: Yes, you deal with two points, sir. The first one with respect to 23(1) , that only covers disciplinary action. That is, I submit with all due respect, because there is a body of law that is in administrative law that has developed over the past 15 to 20 years where the courts have ind icated they are not inte rested in overseeing professional bod ies or even supporting bodies.

They would prefer that they make their own rules and regulations, and they can deal with them in whatever fashion they want. Cer tainly the by -laws in this legislation call for the estab lishing of rules as to qualifications to become a CGA and that sort of thing. The courts are not interested in overseeing that, and they would prefer that the bodies, who are governing those members, do that themselves, except in cases of breaches of the Ch arter or that sort of thing. Cert ainly, br eaches of the Charter do not involve a member acting in good faith and do not involve procedural defects.

Now, with respect to your second question regarding the procedural defects, that is to protect a member who, as I indicated earlier, may have made an error on a matter that is technical in nature. Again the courts have said, we are not interested in reviewing that sort of matter. If you are br eaching the rules of natural justice, that is a different question, but if we are talking about technicalities, no actions should lie. I submi t that what it really does is it codifies what is already the common law .. Mr.

Kozak: My colleagues and I have no intention of obstruc ting the passage of this Bill from committee, given the fact that the two associations involved have reached an accommodation, despite the fact that it wou ld have been preferable if the Bill had been sponsored in such a way that a last minute scuffling around to reach an accommodation would not have been re quired. My questioning to the presenter is complete. Mr. Chitirman: Thank you. Any more questions to Mr. O' Neill? If not, we want to thank you, Mr. O'Neill, for your presentation. Mr.

O'Niti ll: I would like to take this opportunity to thank, on behalf of my clients, the committee for listening to the presentation, Mr. Praznik for moving the Bill in the first place and for the amendment, and the Legislative Counsel for. their involvement in this legislation. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Are there any more presenters to Bill No. 95? If not, I want to thank everybody that made a presentation to Bill No. 95. BILL NO. 104-THE PROFESSI ONAL HOME ECONOMIS TS ACT Mr. Chairman: Bill No. 10 4, The Pro fessional Home Economists Act, Ms. Marilyn Nosko. Ms. Nosko, you have a written presentation? Ms.

Marilyn Nosko (Manit oba Association of Home Economists): Yes, I do. Mr. Chairman: Ms. Nosko, you may carry on with your presentation. Ms. Nosko: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Members of the Legislative Assemb ly, ladies and gentlemen, I am very pleased to have this opportun ity to speak to Bill 10 4, The Professional Home Economists Act. Home economists are seeking a professional Act in order to reduce risks to the public by enabling the profession to govern itself.

Only with the support of legislation will the profession be able to regulate the conduct and practise of individual members through its professional association. A professional Act will not only reduce and prevent harm to the public, but will provide the public with recourse not presently available.

An Act is the only means by which the profession can ensure competent and quality services to the public. Home economis ts have thoroughly reviewed the problems and concerns that exist. We have become increa singl y appr ehe nsive about the pub lic's circumstances. We are firmly convinced that legislation is essential. Accountabili ty and effective standards for a profession that is so diverse can only be implemented through a professional Act. The public would be better served through such legislation. Home economists help people make decisions abo ut their lives in countless numbers of ways.

The advice provided and the information disseminated routinely impacts on the public's health, safety and well-being. To outline some of the risks the public may face, these risks can be threatening to health, life or security and well-being. As examples, poor prenatal nutrition can result in costs to maintain infants and children with physical or mental disabil ities. Inappropriate advice, another example, to heat infant foods or infant formula in the microwave can result in scalding. Young children are susceptible to choking on certain types of foods. The information to parents and care givers must be accurate.

Proper nutrition is a critical component of health. Inappropriate storage, preparation or handling practices can result in illness or death. Financial advice to individuals or families with limited resources must be sensitive and reliable. Inappropr iate

Tuesdly, March 13, 1990 advice will be detrimental and stressful, particularly to those populations who have limited resources. Home economists work with families who are in financial crisis and distress. They will advise on debt remedies, for example bankru ptcy or orderly payment of debt. Farm families today face severe economic difficulties and are a group that home economists would advise related to financial matters and others. Home economists therefore providing such advice, must be competent and up to date or the consequences to the family can be severe.

As another example, home economists would work with elderly populations, those who are presently aged or those who are nearing senior years. Ad vice might relate to not only financial management as an example, but also to nutrition and perhaps in other areas as well. The advice taken by that individual can therefore impact on the outcome of their enjoying their retirement years. As an example, preretirement seminars are popula r and so information or advice would be given at those to individuals who are planning their retirement. We would work with popula tions who are disadvantaged and at risk.

As an example, pregnant adolescents or adolescent parents. The recipients of services, whether those recipients receive the services directly or indirectly can include any individual or group in society. The services can impact on the entire spectrum of society, people of all ages, all socio-economic levels, geographic locales, men or women. Of these individuals, groups and families, it is important to note that many are at risk and are vulnerable populations. They may be disadvantaged educa tional ly, cultu rally , social ly, economic al ly, physically, emotionally or mentally.

Vulnerable clients do not often have a choice about who provides services and rarely do they have any basis for evaluating qualifications. The recipients of service can also include those people who are lower, middle or upper socioeconomic groups, the latter groups being th ose who often seek out spe cialis ts and experts to assist them with improvements to health and well-b eing. * (16 50) Typically, home economists will use mass media to reach hundreds and even thousands of people. The media can include that which is print or electronic.

Through her work with individuals or groups, the home economist can reach 2,000 to 3,000 people in one year. Those numbers do not include the numbers of people that might be reached through mass media since that is a difficult number to calculate. Basically we serve the same clientele in society that other professions service. The profession is characterized by a high degree of independent judgment requiring knowledge, skill and experience, even at an entry level position. Supervision of salaried employees is often administrative in nature, not necessarily pr ofes sional.

Supervi sion on a professional level may occur through self-initia ted consulta tive process and many home econom ists 41 practise independently as self-employed entrepreneurs. Thus there are numerous home economists whose work would take them outside of guid elin es thr ough emplo yment. The public therefore requir es some assurance that services are being delivered by qualified practitioners. Education and training is at an advanced level. The university program of studies would end with a bachel or, masters or doctoral degree. The bachelor program at the Un iversity of Manitoba is a four-year program.

The university requires the study of pure sciences such as chemistry, biolo gy or physiology or others and the study of the arts is also required such as economic s, psychology, sociology and again others. These pure arts and sciences are then utilized to form a base of knowledge.

This base becomes the theoretical framework applied to study in the accepted fields in home economics such as nutrition and foods, human and family development, financial mana gement and other fields under the profession. lt is a profession with the ob jective of service to the public so therefore the program of studies encompasses the development of proficiencies and skills in methodologies such as communication.

To place this in perspective, I have used an example where facts to educate the public must necessarily be presented in very basi c, simple and understandable form so that the individuals would comprehend the information and be mot ivated to adopt changes. For example, discussions with the pub lic can be around why and hew an individual can choose, select, purchase, prepare, store, preserve and consume foods in order to maintain their health.

Behind these recommenda tions and advice are volumes of research sometimes or even often at the cellular or molecular level which contribu tes to the unique body of kno wledge upon which those recommendations and advice are based . The research may involv e cardiovascu lar disease, hypertension, diab etes, cholesterol, I think is a very popular word today, polyunsaturated fatty acids and so on. lt is really not possible to itemize in any detail the extent that is of the research, the body of knowledge or even the impact and effect on the public and individuals in society.

Suffice to say that education and training are at a specialized and advanced level, but however do have immediate consequences for the publi c. To brie fly touch on some historical backg round related to the profession, it came to be establ ished as a result of the public's need or the public's expression of need, I should say. lt is a long-standing profession, having been founded back in the late 18 00s. In Manitoba, a training institution beg an in 1910 and a degree program existed at the Univ ersity of Manitoba since 1915 .

Associa tions for the prof ession exist at the international level and in many countries around the world. In Canada, we do ha ve a national association and as well there are associations in the dif ferent provinces and territories. Manitoba formed its fi rst association in 191 1.

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 I think this does demonstrate that home economists do have the organization skills, the abili ty to manage affairs and would be capable of administering the Act. The overall professional practice is home economics. Within this are the specialized practice areas, based on the program or the major studied at university. Those are listed there. They are, of course, br oad categories, under each through post-graduate study or an applied practice, the professional can specialize even further.

Aspects such as job title, employment settings, specialization area may not necessarily identify a qualified practitioner to the public. People today have a greater interest and concern with quality of life issues. I think if you would consider some of the informal discussions that you may have overheard or even participated in, the topic of food and nutrition is a very, very popular topic. The public's need for improved health and well-being means a continued increase for accurate and reliable information.

Coupled with this is the tact that the public is unable to discern accurate from inaccurate information, nor abl e to ascert ain the qua lifications of the person providing the information. Home economists today have become extremely concerned. There are widespread numbers of people today who do provide information and advice in these areas, and may pu rport thems elves to be home economists. it is belie ved that in other instances, individuals would opportune on the publi c's int erest and need. Emplo yers con tinue to hir e people without pr ofes sional trai ning into positions.

They may unrealistically expect these individuals to develop home economics programs and services, so like the public, the employer does not have the means to evaluate qualifications. Those cl ients who have experience with home econ omis ts have faith and confide nce in the pro fessional providing that information and would assume that it was accurate and reliable. Conv ersely, clients who are not experienced or who have not had exposure to home economis ts have no basis for expectations of quality of service. Both groups are at risk. lt should be noted that today we live in an age of information explosion.

Information is highly technical, complex and technologically advanced. Yet at the same time terms such as financial management, food and nutrition and others have become common and generic in the language. While the public today seeks specialized information and specialized professionals, the public does not have a means to discern, in the case of home economics, those who are competent and reliable practitioners.

I think as one example people would often read newspaper articles and newspapers would pick up the information that comes through on the wire services from the U.S. so if you were to glance through a nutrition

article from the U.S. that information, although accurate there, would not necessarily be accurate here. As an example, the grading system tor meats in the U.S. is 42 far different than that in Canada. Their meat is far higher in fat than is ours. Yet the public would read the information relating to the high fat content of meat and would be mislead. With today's high deg ree of spec ial iza tion, professionals often work co-operatively and in an inter disciplinary manner.

That is, other professionals would often call upon home economists and would be in a position similar to that of other members of the publi c. We are one of the few professions without some form of regulation. Since most others are regulated, the public assumes that this would also apply to us. They assume therefore that they similarly have recourse should a probl em arise, and of course this is not the case. * (17 00) To conclude, the public would benefit from regulation of home economists because legislation would ensure that those practising will be competent, qualified and appropria tely trained.

This is of greatest importance in reducing risks to the public. We do pr actise in a wide variety of specializations, occupational settings and job titles. There is simply no way to ensure a minimum of professional quality apart from tha t provided through legisla tion. This is dramatically illustrated through the ways in which the public may be harmed or placed at risk, as well as the confusion that now exists in the public's mind about what a home economist is, what she or he does and what quality a client could reasonably expect in the way of service.

We are convinced that providing competent and ethical services requires professional education and continued professional learning. Experience shows that the only way to ensure that persons providing services are capable is to establish minimum standards. This can only be accompl ished by regula tion thr ough legislated action, essential for the profession and the publi c. Bill 104 is the type of legislation that accomplishes this. The Professional Home Economis ts Act is comparable legisla tion to tha t granted to other professions.

This . profession is characterized by long-standing service to the public, those services being primarily preventative in nature. Professional Acts for home economists have already been passed in Alberta and in Ontario, and we are of the understanding that in New Brunswick the association is ready to put forward a practice act. Thank you for your consideration and attention. Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Mr. Doer. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Thank you very much for the presenta tion. You mentioned the Bills, home economists acts have been passed in Alberta and Ontario.

Are the Bills similar to the one proposed here before the Legislature today? Ms. Nosko: Yes.

Tuesday, March 13 , 1900 Mr. Doer: Can you tell me how long the Bills have been in practice or have been enforced in Alberta and in Ontario? Ms. Nosko: In Alberta, it was passed in January i9 89, and in Ontario in No vember 19 89. Mr. Doer: So I am assuming this is fairly new territory in terms of the pro fession and that it wou ld be premature to try to learn from their legislation. We should basically go with the similar type of legislation Manitoba as recommended by your association. ll\ll $. Nosko: Yes. Mr. Doer: Thank you very much, and thank you for an excellent presentation. Ms.

Avis Gray (EIIice): Thank you, Marilyn, for that informed presentation. You spoke of the right to practise when you mentioned the Bills in some of the other jurisdictions. Now if I read this particular Bill correctly, you are not asking for-or in this Bill is not the right to practise. Am I correct? Ms. Nosko: That is correct. Ms. Gray: Co uld you explain for the committee perhaps what the right to practise is, or what that would include that is not in this particular Bill? I would ask you to do that because, is that something that perhaps we should be looking at? Ms.

Nosko: The practice would involve clauses that were removed lrom the original proposed Act. The reason that we asked for that was because we bel ieved that a legislation it affords some limited protection to the publi c. A person who is a registered mem ber of the association under a Act would indeed be subject to the terms conditions of the Act However, not all members or not all individuals would be required to be members, so that a person could in fact graduate and be very qualified but not be a member, or could in fact not be that competent and not be a member .

Whereas with right to practise, it affords more protection to the pub lic since it requires that people be members if they are going to be practising. Ms. Gray: Again, to clarify, is that right to practise in the Alberta or Ontario legislation, or is it proposed in the New Brunswick legislation? Ms. Nosko: lt is in neither the Alberta nor the Ontario one, but it is in the one that will be propos ed in New Brunswick. Ms. Gray: Are there some other professions that you are aware of that have right-to-practise legislation here in Manitoba? Ms.

Nosko: When we were reviewing the various types of legislation that encompassed professional Acts, we looked at professions such as agrology or engineering and used their Acts as a model. Ms. Gray: Could you tell us, in regard to the right to practise, am I correct in assuming that the Association of Home Economists then feel that in fact there should be a right to practise or would prefer to have a right to pr act ise as part of the legislation if tha t was something that could be brought forward? l\1s.

Nosko: That would be preferred again because of the greater protection afforded to the public. lt was in the original material that we asked to be considered. lt was then subsequent ly, by agreement, removed. Mr. Chairman: Ms. Gray. No more questions? Mr. Minenko. Mr. Mark Minenk o (S even Oaks): You mention, towards the end of your presentation, that the Bill addresses certain standards and other issues that may arise. I am just wondering if you could advise us whether there have been examples where people have held themselves out to be a home economist who were not indeed home economists.

Have there been some recent examples of that type of thing happening? * (17 10) Ms. Nosko: The most recent types of things would be those that would have come through in the media, but certainly there are individuals where examples can be given that I know of personally, and i think the other members of our committee could also think of where, yes, that individual held themseif out to be proficient in those areas or to actually use that name. Mr. Minenk o: You suggest there is a danger to the public for people holding themselves out to be in that designation.

I am jus! wondering if you could expand a little bit on that Ms. Noskc: I can think of one recent occurrence, a personal experience of mine. I had spent some time with an individual who was working with an agency in Winnipeg. The time that I spent with her was related to menu planning and also covering some basic nutrition information in order that she be able to carry out duties with that agency. The individual in question then commented that she felt she could now carry on and practise. The time that I spent with her consisted of perhaps six hours over a period of three or four visits. Mr.

Minenko: This Bill would then address any of these sorts of probl ems arising in the future? Ms. Nosko: Yes. Mr. Chairman: Ms. Nosko, we will have to stop these questions now at this time. Hansard has run out of tape. We will have to have a three or four minute recess. Mr. Minenko: I have no further questions. Mr. Chairman: No further questions to Ms. Nosko? Well, thank you for your presentation.

TUesday, March 13, 1990 Ms. Nosko: Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Are there any more presenters to Bill No. 10 4? ... making your presentation and then we are prepared to go into clause by clause. Mr. Carr . Mr. James Carr (F ort Rouge): Mr. Chai rperson, wonder if the committee would gi ve leave to deal with Bill 96 first. Mr. Chairman: That is fine. No problem. We will have to wait anyhow until the tape gets replaced. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis. Ms. Judy Wasylyc ia-Leis (S t. Johns): Could I add to the suggestion in terms of which order we deal with them and actually deal with 96 followed by 10 4- Mr. Ch airman: Which one?

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: -f ollowed by 104, then 95, and then the other th ree in numerical order. Mr. Ch airman: Okay, is that the will of the committee? Agreed. RECESS Mr. Chairman: I would like to remind the committee that the Bills will be considered clause by clause. During the consideration of the Bill, the title and the

preamble are postponed until all other cl auses have been considered in the proper order by the committee. BILL NO. 96-AN ACT TO AMEND

AN ACT RESPECTING THE ROMAN CATHOLIC ARCHIEPISC OPAL COR PO RATION OF WINNIPEG AND THE ROMAN CATHOLIC ARCHDIOCESE OF WINNIPEG Mr. Chairman: Bill No. 96, on this Bill, we shall fi rst hear from Legislative Couns el to give a report on this Bill.- (interjection)- What is that? Are you going to report on this Bill? Just identify yourself and you may report. Mr. lsaac Silver (L egislative Cou nsel): My name is lsaac Silver on staff of Leg islative Counsel. This is a report on Bill 96. Mr. Chairman: Yes, please proceed. Mr. Si lver: As required by Rule 108 of the Rules of the House, I now report that I have examined Bill 96,

An Act to Amend

An Act Respecting the Roman Ca tholic Archiepiscopal Corpora tion of Winnipeg and the Roman Ca tholic Archdiocese of Winnipeg, and have not noted any exceptional powers sought or any other provision of the Bill requiring special consideration. Dated at Winnipeg, this 8th day of March, 19 90. Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Silver. Any questions to legal counsel. None? Proceed. 44 Does the MLA sponsoring the Bill have any opening statements? No? No, okay. Do representatives from the other two Parties have any brief opening comments? Okay, we will go to the Bill clause by clause.

Bill No. 96, Cla use No. 1- pass; Cl ause 2- pass; Title- pass; Pream ble- pass . Shall the Bill be reported? Agreed. Is it the will of the committee that I report the Bill? Agreed. BILL NO. 104-THE PROFESSIONAL HOME ECONOMIS TS ACT Mr. Chairman: Bill No. 104, does the MLA sponsoring this Bill have any opening statement? Mr. Gilleshammer. Mr. Harold Gil leshammer (Min nedosa): Just that we are very pleased to bring this forward today and have the support of the other critics. Thank you. * (17 20) Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Do the Opposition Party Members have any comments to make? No?

We will proceed with the Bill clause by clause. Bill No. 10 4, Cl ause 1- pass. Are there any amend ments that anybody is going to bring forward in this? Claus es 1 to 10- pass; Cla uses 11 to 20- pass; Shall 20 to the back of the Bill pass? I guess I stretched it a little too far; 21 to 30- pass; 31 to 40 pass-p ass; 41 to 50- pass.

Preamble- pass; Title-pa ss; Shall the Bill be reported? (Agreed) Is it the will of the committee that I report the Bill? Agreed. BILL NO. 95-THE CERTIFIED GENE RAL ACCOUNT ANTS ACT Mr. Chairman: Bill No. 95, does the sponsoring MLA have any opening statement? Do repr esentatives from the other two Parties have any comments to make? We will go over Bill No. 95 clause by clause. Mr. Praznik. Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Chair, I have an amend ment tha t appl ies to a numb er of amendments, and I have one that applies to the whole Bill that is proper to move at this time.

I move THAT Bill 95 be amended in the French version by striking out "agree" or "agrees", wherever either occurs as part of "comptable general agree" or "comptables generaux agrees", and substituting "lic encie" or "licencies" as required in each instance. (F rench vers ion) 11 est propose que le projet de loi 95 soit amende par subs titution, a chaque occurrence de "comptable general agree" et de "comptables generaux agrees" de "comptable general licencie" et "comptable s generaux licencies". I belie ve, Mr. Chair , that this will make the correction, as agreed by the Institute of Char tered Accountants

Tues dll y, March 13, 1990 and the Certified General Accountants Association, with respect to the use of the title and make such amendment throughout the whole Bill. I make this motion with respect to both the English and French language. Mr. Ch airman: Moved by Mr. Praznik-a ny discussion in respect to his amendment? Shall the amendment to Bill No. 95 pass? Agreed. Cl ause 1- pass; Cl ause 2- pass. Mr. Praznik, on Clause 2? Mr. Praznik: No, on Claus e 3. I belie ve we just passed Claus e 2. Mr. Chairman: Clause 2(1) -C iause 2(2)-pa ss; Cla use 2(3)-p ass; Cl ause 3( 1)- pass; Clause 3(2)-pa ss.

Cla use 3(3)-Mr . Praznik. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair , I move THAT subsect ion 3(3) of Bill 95 be amended by striking out "less" and subst ituting "fewer". (French version) 11 est propose que le paragraphe 3(3) de la version anglaise soit amende par substitution, a "less", de "fewer". I move that with respect to both the English and the French languages. Mr. Chairman: Shall the amendment by Mr. Praznik to Cl ause 3(3) pass -p ass. Shall Clause 3(3) as amended pass- pass. Cl ause 3(4)-pa ss. Shall all the ones in the br ackets in 3-o h, there are more amendments. Okay, we will have to carry on. Cl ause 3(5)-pa ss.

Cla use 3(6)- Mr. Praznik. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair , I would move THAT subsect ion 3(6) of Bill 95 be amended by stri king out "for the balance of the unexpired term" and subs tituting "until the next annual general meeting of the association". (F rench version) 11 est propose que le paragraphe 3(6) du projet de loi 95 soit amende par substit ution, a "la fin du mandat non ecoule", de "l'assembl ee generale annuelle suivante de !'Association". I make this motion with respect to both the English and the French languages. Mr. Chairman: Shall the amendment to 3(6)- pass. Shall 3(6) as amended pass? Agreed.

Shall 3(7)- pass; 3(8)- pass; 3(9)-pa ss; 3(10 )- pass. Cl ause 4, Mr. Praznik. 45 Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair , I would like to move THAT subs ection 4(1) of Bill 95 be amended (

a) by striking out "or" at the end of clause (

a) and substi tuting "and"; (

b) by striking out clause (b); (

c) by striking out "personal fitness" in clause (

c) and substituting "character"; and (

d) by renumb ering clause (

c) as 91ause {b). (F rench versi on) 11 est propose que le paragraphe 4(1) du projet de loi 95 soit amende:

a) par substitut ion, a "la condition mentionnee a l'alinea

a) ou

b) et la condition mentionnee a l'alinea c)", de "les conditions suivantes"; (

b) par suppression de l'alinea b); (

c) par su bstit ution, a "des qualif ications scolai res et professionnel les app ropriees ainsi que des aptitudes personnelles", de "qu 'elle a une reputation ainsi que des qualifications scolaires et professionnelles appropriees"; (

d) par subs titution, a la designation d'a linea c), de la designation b). I make this motion with respect to both the English and the French languages. Mr. Chairman: The amendments to Cla use 4(1)-Mr . Doer. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition ): I would like to ask the mover of those amendments, what is the difference in legal

definitions between personal fitness and character? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair , my unde rsta nding, in discussions with the CGAs when they requested this amendment, was the reference to personal fitness could be the physical state to the individual whether they were overweight or fit as opposed to their character. Other professional associations such as the Law Society, for example, refer to character. That allows them to deal with individuals who are of an improper character over their lifetime and so weed them out of the profession. Mr. Ch ai rman: Any more discussion on the amendment? Mr. Doer. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Chai rperson, hearing the explanation and the comparison with lawyers, I now understand it more fully. Mr. Chairman: The amendment to Cla use 4(1 )- (pass); 4(1) as amended-( pass). Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair , I would like to move by block. My next amendment is in Cla use 6(1) .

TUesday, Marc h 13, 1990 Mr. Chairman: Okay, 4(2)-(pa ss); Cla use 5-( pass). Cl ause 6(1) - Mr. Praznik. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair , I would move THAT clause (dd) in subsect ion 6(1) of Bill 95 be amended by striking out "sections 18 and 19" and substituting "sections 4, 18 and 19". (Fre nch version) 11 est propose que l'a linea 6(1)(dd) du projet de loi 95 soit amende par substitut ion, a "18 , 19," de "4, 18, 19,". I make this motion with respect to both the English and the French languages. Mr. Chairman: Shall the amendment moved by Mr. Praznik to 6(1) pass? Mr. Kozak. Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): Mr.

Chairman, I would hope for the indulgence of a couple of minutes to read this par ticular amendment. Mr. Chairman: Granted. Mr. Praznik. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair , I would certainly agree to that. I understand that was an amendment requested by the CGAs in discussion. If we could perhaps proceed on while the Member is perusing that, my only other amendment is with respect to

Section 10 and then a general amendment for renumberi ng clauses, so if we could proceed. Mr. Chairman: Mr. Kozak, is that your wish, that we may proceed and come back to this later? Mr. Kozak: Yes, indeed, Mr. Chairman, that satisfies me. Mr. Chair man: Is it the will of the committee? Agreed. We will go to 6(2)- pass; 6(3)-(pa ss); Claus e 7 -p ass; 7(1) to 8(3)- pass; 9(1) to 9(7)-( pass). Cla use 10-Mr . Praznik. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair , I move THAT

section 10 of Bill 95 be struck out. (Fre nch version) 11 est propose que !'article 10 du projet de loi 95 soit supprime. I move with respect to both the English and the French languages. Mr. Chair man: Moved by Mr. Prazn ik, shall the amendment to Cla use 10 pass? (Agreed). Mr. Kozak. Mr. Kozak: Mr. Cha

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-pb3
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf pb3.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d65134572a25e8a78d4b0e7269b2c3fa8b133093

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