Second Session -T hirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 13- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday,Aprill7, 20fH

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, lion. ASPER, Linda BARRElT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CIIOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, lion. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKJ, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, lion. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, lion. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCIIUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russeli Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. PC . P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. PC . P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.I'. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. PC . N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

485 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April17, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Canada-Manitoba Adjustment Program 2 Bon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I rise to­ day to make a statement about the federal-pro­ vincial farm aid program or CMAP 2. As the Legislature is aware, our Government announced in March that it would participate in the federal government's $500-million assistance package. We have committed $38 million, our share of the aid package.

The total payment to Manitoba producers will be approximately $92 million. The program delivery will be targeted to the grains, oilseeds and specialty crops sectors as it is these areas which have suffered the greatest income losses, mainly as a result of high subsidies paid to the United States and European farmers. The program will be administered by the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation and will be similar to last year's Canada-Manitoba Adjustment Program or CMAP. However, there are a number of important differences. Under CMAP 2 farmers will be able to select their best income year of 1997, 1998 or 1999.

This is important particularly for farmers who have suffered through more than one bad year and for whom an average would lessen their entitlement. This year, we will also be including forage seed as an eligible crop. Forage seed production is an expanded area of our agriculture industry, and this recognizes the price losses faced by the forage seed producers. I am very pleased to announce that we will be accommodating beginning farmers by adjusting their sales between two crop years so that they will be eligible for full benefits.

This change will be retroactive for the original CMAP program, and beginning farmers will be eligible for both CMAP and CMAP 2. CMAP 2 payments will flow in two instalments. An initial payment of 7 5 percent of the estimated total will be made in May, with the final payment made in early fall after all applicants have been received and processed. Mr. Speaker, while we acknowledge that more assistance is required for our grain and oilseed producers, we are pleased to get this money into the hands of farmers for the upcoming crop year. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, let me thank the minister for having made the announcement today for the forage seed producers. I think this is good news, and also for recognizing that our young farmers are an integral part of the ongoing development of our agricultural industry. * (13:35) Our agricultural industry is economically one of the most important sectors in our economy. Our processing industry depends on it; our manufacturing industry depends on it; our secondary industry such as machinery manu­ facturing and others depend on it.

It is also ex­ tremely important to note that this Government must, without question, do everything in its power to see to it that the young farm community be given every opportunity that is physically possible to ensure that we have a continuation in our rural communities of the development that has been started previously and that should be ongoing. So I again want to thank the minister for the changes that she and her Government have made to this program. It will be welcome news especially to young farmers and forage seed producers. Bon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask leave to speak on the minister's statement.

486 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April17, 2001 Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I rise to thank the Minister of Agriculture for clarifying how the $92 million will be split up among the farmers of this province. I think farmers should be pleased that some aid is arriving. I think the minister has made some significant steps in allowing for the best income year to be used in adjusting sales for beginning farmers. I will reserve comments until later until I fully understand the implications of how you will adjust for beginning farmers.

I think that it is now a month and a bit after the initial announcement and producers were wondering about the delay to the decision. There are producers who are wondering about why it is May instead of sooner, but at least we can be happy that the decision is now made and that the money should start flowing soon. Flood Conditions Hon. Drew Caldwell (Acting Minister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement on flood conditions. The minister is out surveying flooding in the province today. Mr.

Speaker, flood conditions and forecast update for April 17, 2001: Levels of the Red River rose less than one third of a foot at most points during the past 24 hours. It may be possible to reduce the predicted crest at some points. Updated forecasts will be available later today when the latest data from the United States is analyzed. It is beginning to appear that ring dike closures may not be required except for a possible minor operation in Emerson. It is unlikely that PTH 75 will need to be closed. * (13:40) Levels of the Assiniboine River continue to fall from Spruce Woods to Winnipeg.

Levels are rising slowly from Millwood to Brandon where minor flooding of valley lands has begun. There is still considerable snow to melt on tributaries such as the Birdtail Creek and the Little Saskatchewan River, so the Assiniboine River will likely experience somewhat accelerated rises by the weekend following expected milder weather. However, it now appears unlikely that there will be serious flooding along the upper Assiniboine or its tributaries unless there is significant rainfall. Much snow also remains on higher ground in the Dauphin and Swan River area.

A fast melt with some rain would create a significant risk of flooding. This situation will be watched very closely for the next several days until the risk subsides. Levels of the Roseau River are stable with only minor changes since yesterday. No significant further rise is anticipated unless heavy rains develop. Water is close to the top of the Gardenton floodway but overtopping is now unlikely. The Souris River is presently cresting at levels significantly lower than 1999. Low-lying areas are flooded from the international boundary to Hartney.

Rafferty and Alameda reservoirs in Saskatchewan, as well as Lake Darling in North Dakota are being operated in a manner which will minimize the duration of flooding along the Souris River in Manitoba. The crest on the Pembina River is in the Swan Lake area today. Minor flooding of the valley is expected in the La Riviere area later this week. Levels of the Whitemud River continue to fall at Westbourne. Levels of the Fisher River at the Peguis Reserve continue to fall. Residents will be re-admitted to their homes once water quality in this area has been tested.

Levels of the La Salle River crested over the weekend with only minor flooding. Overland flooding continues to be an issue in St. Laurent and Ashern but is expected to subside during this week. The weather outlook is quite favourable at this time. Little precipitation is expected from now through the weekend. Milder temperatures during the next few days will be followed by cooler temperatures on the weekend, resulting in an overall gradual melt in the Riding Mountain and Duck Mountain areas. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Harry Eons (Lakeside): I thank the minister for this update, and I think, along with

April l7, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 487 all Manitobans and all members of the House, we take some comfort in the more optimistic report contained therein. I am hoping perhaps the Minister of Government Services might have a statement as well to make because, although there is reason for more optimism with respect to our major rivers, many, many municipalities are undergoing some very severe difficulties. Hundreds of bridges, culverts, roads are being washed out.

What the local government officials are requiring who are making commitments of machinery, money and time right now is some indication from the Government that they will in fact be dealt fairly with respect to sharing some of these costs. One specific comment I cannot let go, Mr.

Speaker, if I tum to page 3 of the minister's release, when it says that particularly references to the Souris River is presently cresting at levels significantly lower than 1999, low-lying areas are flooded from the international boundary to Hartney, the Rafferty and Alameda reservoirs in Saskatchewan as well as Lake Darling in North Dakota are being operated in a manner which will minimize the duration of flooding along the Souris River in Manitoba. You know, Mr.

Speaker, if you listen carefully, this Chamber still echoes with the outrage and the howls from members opposite when the Saskatchewan government dared propose the building of the Rafferty and Alameda dams. I am pleased to note, coming from the mouth of an NDP mimster, that these two projects are now adding significantly to the protection of our environment as well as to the long-term supply of water. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Management): I have a statement, Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased to bring a statement to the House. I am sure the Member for Lakeside (Mr.

Enns) will be pleased to hear some of the updates in this case from the perspective of Minister responsible for Emergency Management. In fact, I just returned from the member's constituency. My colleague the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) along with the MLA for the Interlake are currently assessing the situation in the Interlake. * (13:45) As was indicated to the House by the Acting Minister of Conservation, the weather conditions over the Easter weekend helped improve the flood forecast, although there were a number of urgent situations that are still being monitored.

Levels of the Red River have remained stable, although agricultural flooding remains a serious concern in the Red River Valley. There is also concern about the rising level of the Roseau River which has resulted in preventive action in the Stuartbum area and a disaster declaration by the R.M. of Franklin. North of Winnipeg the R.M. of St. Laurent and the R.M. of Westboume have both passed resolutions declaring a local state of emergency as a result of overland flooding.

In addition, overland flooding caused by the Fisher River resulted in a decision by Peguis First Nation to relocate a number of residents from threatened areas. On Monday, the Premier (Mr. Doer) and I travelled to Emerson, Stuartbum and Rosenort to survey the flood situation. Just this morning, as I mentioned earlier, I went with the Minister of Conservation to the Interlake. I can indicate a number of local governments have made decisions to pile sandbags and cut roads to prevent rising flood waters.

The Manitoba Emergency Management Organization is monitoring and co-ordinating provincial supports with local governments, and I can indicate that as of today we have opened flood liaison offices in both Morris and Melita. There are a number of provincial roads that have been closed due to impassable conditions. I can table a copy of current road closures and detours for information in the House later on.

I can also indicate that I would encourage people considering travel anywhere in the affected areas of rural Manitoba to contact the Department of Transportation, and I can also indicate we are monitoring very closely the situation with Highway 75. We are hearing reports almost on a daily basis as to whether it will require closure. I can indicate that we will make sure that we inform the public of that and would encourage, once again, the public to stay tuned. Mr. Speaker, a number of local governments have started to estimate the financial cost of the flooding. Estimates are very preliminary, and

488 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April17, 2001 obviously we will be assessing potential cost factors over the next period of time. It is premature to speculate on Manitoba's level of financial contribution and whether indeed we will be seeing federal cost sharing under the Disaster Financial Assistance. Obviously, our No. 1 focus right now, as is the No. 1 focus of the affected municipalities, is on dealing with the urgent situation. But I can certainly indicate to the members opposite, particularly the Member for Lakeside (Mr.

Enns), that we indicated yesterday-the Premier, myself and I know the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lath! in) indicated today-that we will obviously be doing everything possible to make sure that affected municipalities and affected individuals will have access to the Disaster Financial Assistance program and the normal levels of assistance that are out there.

In fact, I hope to be able to make some sort of announcement or update on the situation of November, because very much this was an extension of the situation that developed in November with the excessive moisture, and that is what caused some of the significant impact. I will perhaps table the rest of the statement. I will just finish by saying that I want to give a particular note of credit to the many of our government employees who have been out there working very hard. Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to visit the people who were working at St.

Laurent on both Friday and Sunday, and I think those of you who will remember the weather on Sunday will understand the dedication. It was minus seven. There was about a 50 kilometre wind, and I know one of our Department of Transportation employees had that wind in his face for an entire 12-hour shift while we pumped water from one side of Highway 6 to the other. I will tell you the work that has been done by the Department of Conservation, Emergency Management, Department of Transportation, if we had medals we should be giving them out to our employees for the kind of work they put in.

That is part of being a Manitoban, Mr. Speaker, the kind of dedication we see from our employees out there working with the municipalities, working with local residents, and I tell you I am very proud as Minister of Transportation and Minister responsible for Emergency Management just to be a part of it. Thank you. * (13:50) Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his statement and his update.

I appreciate my colleague's tolerance to allow me to respond to this statement because the Whitemud Watershed, which is not a major watershed in terms of the Red River Valley and the Assiniboine, nevertheless is a major watershed which covers my entire constituency and part of the member from Portage's constituency, as well. There has been an enormous amount of overland flooding that has occurred, not with the 10-foot-high walls of water that might be seen in some of the other watersheds but damaging to personal property. As I mentioned last week, numerous roads, bridges, culverts have been destroyed.

Our roads have been cut in order to accommodate the water, and in fact that is still going on as we speak today in various parts of the watershed.

I would estimate-and as the minister said, any estimations are very preliminary and very, very rough-that there are likely in excess of 200 bridges, crossings, culverts, road repairs of some significance that are going to have to be made in the areas of Westboume, Glenella, Alonsa, Lakeview and probably Lansdowne, as well, will all be areas that will be very likely in need of some disaster assistance because of the magnitude of the repair bills that they will be faced with. I appreciate that the minister says that they will respond compassionately.

I would remind him that at times like this the other consideration is that as the disaster repair bills increase, it then starts to become recognizable that additional mitigation works may well be useful in order to offset future disaster costs.

That is an important consideration in the Whitemud Conservation, because when you consider that the Whitemud Conservation District is one of the few responsible conservation districts that has accepted responsibility for a large portion of the drainage, they took responsibility for the drainage, but they have a large number of these culverts and crossings within their budget and they, too, will be an authority that will probably

April17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 489 severely strain and exceed their available resources. So I thank the minister for his update, and I would invite him and the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) to join the member from Ste. Rose any time to review some of the damage. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. MaryAnn Mihycbuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table three copies of the 1999- 2000 Annual Report for the Manitoba Trade and Investment Corporation, copies of which have already been distributed in accordance with the intersessional procedures.

Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have from Lockport School 48 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Tony Mravnik. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD 1999 Flooding Disaster Assistance Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, time and time again in this House and during a series of strategic photo ops, we have heard this Government champion itself as a saviour of farmers and of rural Manitoba. Unfortunately, this opportunistic behaviour is not translating into jobs or opportunities or hope for the future. Businesses are closing and families are leaving. Out of another photo op yesterday we see the Premier is now promising disaster assistance for Manitobans affected by this year's flooding. He said: In these communities where we are responsible, absolutely. * (13:55) Mr.

Speaker, while I am pleased that the Premier is acknowledging his Government's responsibility in assisting Manitobans suffering from the effect of this year's flooding, he seems to have forgotten those businesses and families still suffering from the effects of the '99 flood. Will the Premier please inform the House when he plans on treating those Manitobans with the same level of respect? When will the Doer government provide the support of those still suffering from the effects of the 1999 flood? Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would just like to take this opportunity, and I note that we have an unusually large number of visitors in the public gallery today, I would just like to remind members of the public who are with us today in the gallery that our rules and practices of the House do not allow members of the public to participate in the proceedings here in the Chamber, which includes applauding. I appreciate your co-operation. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I have said time and time again in this House that we believe in a national disaster assistance program. We participate in a national disaster assistance program.

We will continue to participate as a funder of and hopefully a recipient of the pooling benefits of a national disaster assistance program. That national disaster assistance program is a federal-provincial area of responsibility. Members opposite would know that. The flooding was in May and June of 1999 and, unlike the 1997 flood and the disaster assistance in Quebec and Ontario with the ice storms, the federal government has approved by Order-in-Council and by press release in the year 2000 , February 2000 , the region as a disaster assistance region but has not approved any of the funds that should flow.

We believe and our money is absolutely on the table but we require a federal agreement on the disaster assistance. As late as four weeks ago, the Minister responsible for EMO met for the first time with the federal Defence Minister who is responsible for disaster assistance, pointed out that in particular in the areas of weed programs and fertilizer input costs those were

49 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2001 covered under the Red River flood with a federal-provincial disaster assistance program, not a provincial program but a federal-provincial program. Mr. Speaker, we are absolutely committed to our share of that money. Rose Report Implementation Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, Mr.

Speaker, aside from still awaiting support from the Doer government, these farmers continue to face ongoing international agriculture subsidy disputes, low grains, oilseeds and specialty crop prices, and dramatic increases in the costs of fertilizer, fuel and chemicals, all of which have made farming difficult if not impossible for many Manitoba producers.

Farmers are similarly still challenged by dramatic increases in taxes on farm buildings and land due to higher education taxes, huge increases in transportation and handling costs and the cumulative negative effect of several years of adverse weather conditions on crop production. In fact, nowhere is the situation more severe than in those areas of Manitoba that were devastated by flooding and excessive moisture in 1999. Manitobans are still suffering, and the Rose report is in the comer collecting dust.

Will the Premier please inform this House if his Government intends to implement any recommendations of the Rose report dealing with economic development and, if so, when can we expect them to be implemented? * (14:00) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The ramblings of the member opposite are quite curious. He worked for former Prime Minister Mulroney who applied the GST on motive fuel, unlike the situation of the federal, of the provincial tax- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, a couple of weeks ago, when the member opposite was asked would he join and pay $38 million if he was in government to join the federal program to get $93 million, being that all of us agree the federal program is not enough, he would not give a position. But a week later they had $38 million to spend on the Kenaston underpass. Unlike members opposite- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I am having a very difficult time hearing the response from the First Minister, and I need to hear who has the floor in case there is a breach of the rules or parliamentary language.

I would ask the co­ operation of all honourable members. Mr. Doer: We knew the federal-provincial program was not enough to deal with the input costs which have been described by the member opposite with the low prices in grain and oilseeds, based on the subsidies from the U.S. which is rising and from Europe which is intolerably high at 58 cents on the dollar, but we were faced with the choice of whether to go in and get $93 million for the province with the $38 million amount of money that we were required to invest in the program or not to go in and get nothing.

The member opposite was asked the question of whether he would join the program, and he said he could not take a position. But a week later his member said we should spend $38 million on a Kenaston underpass. Thank goodness we spent it on farmers for the $93 million. {interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: I believe that this House has to unite about the situation for farmers.

The member opposite can attack us for being 11 opportunistic. 11 He can attack us for being this and that and everything else, but at the end of the day, after Question Period is over, there is still not going to be enough support for the family farm in Manitoba unless we unite and go to Ottawa with one voice. So we believe strongly that this House has to unite under the resolution that we have brought forward. We have a resolution on the Order Paper, a resolution that was given to members opposite two weeks ago.

April17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 491 I think we should get on with the debate. No provincial government, no matter what their political stripe, can match the treasury of the United States; no provincial government can match the treasury of the European federal governments. It is time our farmers got the subsidy-or not subsidy support, but the investment support so the family farm can survive in this very tough year. It is time for us to unite in this Chamber to say that, Mr. Speaker. Economic Growth Rural Manitoba Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, Mr.

Speaker, the First Minister starts off by saying "I believe." I think the question that we are all wondering is do Manitobans believe him when he says these things. Mr. Speaker, thousands of acres of land are for sale or rent around Manitoba because producers are getting out of farming. Many of these people are leaving rural Manitoba, forced to seek out new opportunities. Young farmers are quitting and taking their children and families elsewhere. Schneider's scrapped its plans to expand Manitoba at a loss of 1100 jobs. Versatile is looking at relocating more than 250 jobs to North Dakota.

Brett-Young Seeds thinks the pastures might be greener in Alberta and has considered leaving Manitoba because the business environment here remains so uncompetitive. Mr. Speaker, aside from ignoring the Rose report, can the Premier please outline what concrete steps this Government is taking to help stem the flood of rural business closures and to offer hope to communities devastated by the 1999 natural disasters and the agriculture crisis? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the Rose report recommended income support for agricultural producers, and we have contributed $40 million last year on top of doubling the income support in the provincial budget at the Department of Agriculture and another $38 million to access $93 million. That is not enough. The Rose report also recommended dealing with tuition fees. Members opposite would be familiar with the nature of the hurt for tuition fees.

We have lowered the tuition fees at all universities that include many students from rural Manitoba to those faculties, but I would admit that there is a greater burden on rural and northern families because of the cost of residency. Mr. Speaker, you know we can go on about statistics. The Globe and Mail report this weekend had us moving up in the area of economic development. I have just got another report on the Budget, an independent report on the Budget. The bottom line is that there have been improvements on the livestock situation here in Manitoba in terms of livestock incomes.

There is a serious, serious income challenge and weakness in the Canadian farming support system for the family farm involved, primarily with grain and oilseeds. I think it is really important because every member in this House knows that agricultural support, agricultural income, the survival of the family farm is also the survival of many Manitoba communities. We should unite in this Chamber under this resolution. The more we fight, the more the federal government stays away from the responsibilities. The more we unite the stronger we are with Ottawa, and I am recommending we unite.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Income Tax Rates Provincial Comparisons Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, in their pre-Budget submission to the Minister of Finance, the Business Council of Manitoba identified the need to keep Manitoba's taxes competitive as the most important issue facing our province. Their submission urged the Doer government to send a clear message to entrepreneurs and business that Manitoba is open for business. Instead, the Doer government chose to inflict Manitobans with the highest tax rates outside of Quebec.

Does the Minister of Finance actually believe that Manitoba remains

492 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2001 tax-competitive when a family of four earning $60,000 a year pays $2,280, or 63 percent more than the same family in Ontario? Is that tax competitive? * (14:10) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, under the 12 years of the former government they had an opportunity to eliminate the surtax; they did not do it. We did in our first year. For 12 years under the former government, they had an opportunity to get rid of the net tax; they did not do it. We did it in our first Budget.

For 12 years they had an opportunity to increase the non-refundable tax credits so that all families would benefit by having more income sheltered from the first dollar of taxation. They did nothing. We did it in our first Budget. They reduced the property tax credit by $75, about 25 percent. We have increased it by 60 percent in our first two Budgets. I will give further information in the next two questions. Mr. Loewen: The Finance Minister really believes what he has just said.

If he really believes that Manitoba remains tax-competitive, why is it that a single-earner in British Columbia earning $60,000 this year will pay $1,800 per year less or 35 percent less than the same single­ income earner in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, if you were to look at the cost of living for a family in B.C. versus the cost of living for a family in Manitoba, any of the tables, you will see that a two-earner family of four at $60,000, the tax burden in British Columbia for all provincial tax levies is $5,187. It is $5,002 in Manitoba, $185 less.

When you go further down the table, the advantage is enormous. It is over $11,000. Mr. Loewen: The minister should listen to the question because I was referring to a single­ income earner. If he checked his numbers he would see that. What I would ask the Minister of Finance is: Why did he not avail himself of the information supplied to him by the Business Council of Manitoba? Why did he not hear their advice and do something to ensure that Manitoba would remain tax-competitive? Mr.

Selinger: When you have reduced corporate income tax rates 11.7 percent for the first time since the Second World War, that pales by comparison anything the former government has done on taxes. Angiogram Testing Waiting List Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, Mr. Jack McDowell recently spent $700 of his own dollars to travel to Regina for an angiogram because he was told he would have to wait four months before he could have this same test done here in Manitoba. In fact, there are some 300 Manitobans waiting for an angiogram in our province. Mr. Speaker, can the Premier (Mr.

Doer), in light of the fact that during the election he promised Manitobans that he would slash waiting lists, explain to Mr. McDowell and any other Manitoban who might be contemplating going to Saskatchewan for an angiogram why they have to wait four months in this province for this test? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for that question, so I can explain to the people of Manitoba that in 1990 Manitoba had eight angiography suites, eight in the province.

During the terrible Tory years, we were down to three angiography suites that were cut by members opposite when members opposite controlled the purse strings and cut the province of Manitoba. We are adding capacity for the first time in a decade. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sure all members will have a chance to ask a question. Diagnostic Testing Waiting Lists Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Can the Premier, in light of the fact that during the election he told Manitobans that he was going to fix health care in six months with $15 million,

April 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 493 he was going to stop the flow of patients going outside of the province for treatment, can he now explain to Manitobans why this is still occurring? Why has he broken his promises to Manitobans? Why do we have highway medicine in Manitoba? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I was doing some calculations this morning to determine some of the situation, and if the members opposite had not cut the Faculty of Medicine in 1993 we would have 120 more Manitoba-trained doctors. If only they had not cut.

If they had not closed the nursing schools at Misericordia, at St. Boniface, at Health Sciences Centre and tried to close the LPN program, we would have hundreds more nurses trained to provide the services necessary. We spent a 45% increase in funding for equipment in our first year's Budget compared to the first year that they came into office after the '95 election, after the major cuts. Diagnostic Equipment Funding Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Can the Premier (Mr.

Doer) tell Manitobans why he allowed his Minister of Health to sit on $18.6 million of federal funding targeted for diagnostic equipment for six months before making an announcement, and why he is denying Manitobans timely access to diagnosis and care by allowing his minister to now sit on the second year's funding of $18. 5 million, and that will not be spent for another year? Can this Minister of Health or this Premier tell us why they have not taken that $37 million and put it into the diagnostic equipment, as it was meant to be spent? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): thank the member for that question because it allows me to correct so many of her inconsistencies and inaccuracies. Mr. Speaker, during 12 years in office they could not negotiate one agreement with the federal government. In our first year, we negotiated that equipment agreement. We put it together, and within the last two years, count them, eight CAT scans, eight CAT scans in rural and northern Manitoba, Steinbach, Morden, The Pas, Boundary Trails.

Contrast that with members opposite who forced the hospitals to buy CAT scans and then would not fund them and denied the funding for operating CAT scans. I ask Manitobans to judge. Eight this year, this year and last year, eight new CAT scans or shutting down the CAT scans at Concordia and Seven Oaks as happened during the past 12 cut­ full years of the Tory government. Manitoba Hydro Debt Projection Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): There have been many expenditure announcements made by Manitoba Hydro over the last few months, including the building of a road at South Indian Lake and converting Hydro plants in Brandon and Selkirk. My question to the minister responsible: Are any or all of these projects adding to the debt of Manitoba Hydro, which the minister is projecting at $6.2 billion? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): In the Budget Papers, it indicates that there has been an increase in the debt in Manitoba Hydro.

When I examined that question, half a billion of that was due to promissory notes that the previous government did not record as debt and which were required to be reported. Another $250 million was for the purchase of Centra Gas, and the remaining amount is entirely due to the movement in the Canadian dollar, which has gone down in relation to the American dollar and is covered by revenues from the United States for Hydro. * (14:20) Debt Reduction Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): In a time of unprecedented growth in government revenue through taxation and transfer payments, why is the Government taking $102 million out of Manitoba Hydro into the general revenue stream, money that could be used to address this debt?

494 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2001 Ron. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, in 1989 the former government entered into an agreement with Manitoba Hydro called the water power rental agreement which, when I first discovered it, was footnote 17 in the back pages of the Hydro report. We have abolished that agreement and brought hydro water power rental rates to the Ontario level which is still 60 percent lower than the B.C. level. Public Utility Board Review Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Given that the chair of the Crown Corporations Council has said that policies that directly or indirectly affect rates require the approval of the Public Utilities Board, will the minister commit today to referring Hydro expenditures to the Public Utilities Board? Ron. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Crown Corpo­ rations Public Review and Accountability Act): Mr. Speaker, I have said continuously that the Public Utilities Committee of the Legislature will have the opportunity to review this matter.

The Public Utilities Board has written, as I understand it, the member opposite and explained their responsibilities, and they have clarified their role in terms of his request and said it is outside of their jurisdiction. Flood Prone Areas Property Buyouts Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Last week I raised the issue of the status of the buyout for 28 residents of Greenview and St. Mary's roads south of the floodway. The Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) stated, and I quote: We are over 50 percent completed on the work.

In my view, this is totally erroneous, and the affected residents are very concerned about the accuracy of that statement. Mr. Speaker, could the First Minister confirm that only four out of the twenty-eight property owners have finalized their buyout and vacated their homes? Ron. Gary Doer (Premier): I will take it as notice on behalf of the minister. An Honourable Member: What? Mr. Speaker: The question has been taken as notice on behalf of the minister. Mrs. Dacquay: Mr.

Speaker, will the First Minister today commit to providing compensation should any of these families suffer flood damage because of his Government's delays in finalizing the buyout? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, certainly the issue of the location the member has raised is an issue that is ongoing. We are following the same laws and procedures that have been followed by previous governments. I should say that I am hopeful, Mr. Speaker, that the continuing forecast for water and levels of water wiii not in any way have a situation as we had in 1997 where the floodway, for example, had to be used at a higher level.

Members opposite will recall the Water Commission report that did indicate certain damages did occur in the Grande Pointe area and the Ritchot area because of the operation of the floodway. I think it was 7000 or 8000 cfs above the protocol levels. Mr. Speaker, the Water Commission report also said that the construction of the Z-dike or Brunkild dike did increase the water volumes, but they, in their opinion, did not feel that that operation provided for any increased damage at Ste. Agathe. We still have other claims.

In fact even in Rosenort yesterday there were unresolved claims that are still before the Government, so the answer to the question is we are doing everything possible to prevent damages in any location in the province. Income Assistance Disabled Recipients-Marginal Tax Rate Ron. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger). When an individual with a disability who is on income assistance begins to earn income, the income is clawed back at a rate of 70 percent. That is, for example, for every

April 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 495 $1,000 earned, the Minister of Finance grabs $700, a 70% marginal effective tax rate. Can the Minister of Finance tell this Legislature why he has an effective marginal tax rate of 70 percent for individuals who are among the most disadvantaged in our society and why this marginal tax rate is higher than the marginal tax rate on the highest income earners in this province? Hon.

Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I think, as the honourable member knows, we will be bringing out a white paper on disability policy within the very next little while, and I agree with him that incentives are very important in terms of assisting people to make a connection with the labour force. There are many issues in the white paper that will be dealing with the question of employment, employability, disability, and I look forward to his comments and reactions to the paper when it is published. Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Finance.

I ask the Minister of Finance: When his 70% clawback acts like a tax, feels like a tax and smells like a tax, when will the minister stop taxing people with disabilities at such a high and outrageous, odious rate? Mr. Sale: As the member and most members of the House know, social assistance of all kinds is a program of last resort.

While we may wish to provide every conceivable incentive for people to regain attachment to the workforce and we have been working very hard on that through our Building Independence program and through other supports to help people reconnect with the workforce, the fact is that as a program of last resort inevitably one must reduce the social assistance level as employment income replaces it. The question is at what rate and what cutting point. I think that is an issue the white paper will discuss quite thoroughly.

I will be interested in the member's reaction to the proposals the Government is putting forward in the paper. Mr. Gerrard: Ma question supph!mentaire au ministre des Finances: Pourquoi le ministre met­ il un impot si haut pour les personnes handicappees dans notre province? Translation My supplementary question, to the Minister of Finance: Why does the minister put such a high tax on people with disabilities in our province? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Je remercie le depute de River Heights pour Ia question. C'est une bonne question, les taux d'imposition pour les personnes qui sont handicappees.

On doit se souvenir que le gouvernement federal a coupe completement son appui aux personnes qui sont sur l'aide sociale. Ce n'est pas une bonne chose qu'ils ont fait �a. Maintenant c'est completement Ia responsabilite de Ia province. On aura un livre blanc. On encourage les personnes handicappees a participer au marche du travail. C'est une bonne chose. Beaucoup de personnes ont Ia capacite de gagner de l'argent, de faire une contribution a leur qualite de vie, et on a d'autres idees dans le livre blanc qui sera sur Ia table dans quelques semaines. Merci.

Translation I than k the member for River Heights for the question. It is a good question, the taxati on rates for people with disabilities. It sh ould be recalled that the federal government completely cut its support to people who are on so cial assistance . It is not a good thing that it did so. It has now become entirely a provincial responsibility. We are going to have a white paper. We encourage people with disabilities to parti cipate in the labour force. This is a good thing. Many people have the capacity to earn money and contribute to their own quality of life.

We have other ideas in the white paper that will be on the table in a few weeks. Thank you. Canada-Manitoba Adjustment Program Beginning Farmers Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk). There is no activity more important to the Dauphin-Roblin constituency than agriculture. There is no activity more important to rural Manitoba and indeed it forms a large part of the Manitoba economy.

496 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l7, 2001 I am particularly concerned with beginning farmers entering a career in agriculture. I would wonder if the minister could explain how she has improved the new CMAP program to include beginning farmers. * (14:30) Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Member for Dauphin for raising this particular issue because our young farmers are very important to the economy of Manitoba. In the first CMAP program the program was a transportation adjustment. Beginning farmers were not excluded in the first CMAP.

However, under the details negotiated with the federal government, they were not able to get a full entitlement because they could only include a partial year's sales. With the new program, we recognized that beginning farmers are vitally important to our industry and need to be treated in a more equitable manner. In order to accommodate them under CMAP we had to do an amendment to the original agreement that was negotiated with the federal government.

That has now been signed, and I am pleased to say that producers who started farming either in 1999 or 2000 will be able to include the sales of the first seven months of the following year in order to get a full-year coverage. This will help young farmers get their share of- Mr. Speaker: Order. East St. Paul High Voltage Hydro Lines Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): The Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro is aware the citizens of East St. Paul have serious concerns about the safety of a proposed Manitoba Hydro development planned for my municipality.

More specifically, they are concerned about possible hazardous health effects, including cancer, emitted from high voltage hydro lines. Can the Minister reassure my constituents that he will take steps to ensure that no new hydro lines are built behind homes in East St. Paul until he can, with I 00 percent certainty, attest to the safety of Manitoba Hydro's plans to double the high­ voltage lines in my community? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): First of all, I would like to thank the Member for Springfield for the question.

We should bear in mind that this project to extend these hydro lines for this community were initiated by the former government under a board appointed by the former government, and the application for the environmental licence was applied for by the former government. When we took office this project was well under way. The environmental licence came back with all the due diligence done by the Department of Conservation and Environment. They said there was no risk. The member raised the question with me.

He met with the residents as well, and I took their concern about health risks to their families and children seriously. We have hydro lines throughout the breadth and length of Manitoba in every community, so this is an important question. What I did with this question is I referred to the Clean Environment Commission, and I asked them to review all the research findings with respect to hydro lines and what their impact is on the public.

The Clean Environment Commission brought in a world expert, a Doctor Mandel, reviewed the literature and had a full-day session with public health officials from across Manitoba. They have prepared extensive documentation on the impact of hydro lines, and I will provide a

summary of this report to the member opposite as well as all the documentation which I have asked to be forwarded to his office at the earliest convenience. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a document put forward. It comes from Exponent's Web site. If I could please have this tabled for the minister. Mr. Speaker, did the Minister know that Exponent or Doctor Mandel and the group-that is the group that helped facilitate the round table-provides advisory and consulting support to electric utilities, prepares and defends environmental reports and impact statements? Basically, their motto is "Have gun,

April 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 497 will travel." I would like to ask the minister did he already know the answer that that round table was going to come forward with before he even posed the question? Mr. Selinger: The Clean Environment Commission is an arm's-length body and I asked them to convene a review of this literature and to make sure that these hydro lines were safe wherever they go in Manitoba. Now, this Doctor Mandel-who, by the way just as a matter of interest, grew up in Winnipeg-is an epidemiologist who has a world-class reputation for reviewing the causes of cancer.

The consensus findings by all the experts at the meeting, including public health officials, including members of CancerCare Manitoba­ that would be Dr. Harry Johnson, the department head for imaging physics and radiation protection at CancerCare Manitoba. They conclude the following: The weight of evidence from studies over the past 30 years does not support the conclusion that there is an association between EMFs and health-related problems, including cancers such as leukemia.

Among the key-supporting studies that show no association between EMFs and childhood leukemia were the National Cancer Institute study of '97 and the Canadian study by McBride in '99. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Agriculture Crisis Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, once again, the visitor's gallery of our Legislature is filled with producers and people from rural Manitoba concerned about the crisis being faced by Manitoba farmers, their families and rural communities.

Although we now have the minister's statement regarding the CMAP program, it must be acknowledged that this will not address the hurt that is out there. Input costs continue to rise, while commodity prices are in a seemingly constant state of decline. It goes without saying that low prices have put pressure on farmers, their families and on our communities. I want to congratulate my colleague the member from Emerson for bringing this matter to the Legislature at the earliest possible opportunity, that being the opening day of the spring session.

I also want to congratulate him for bringing forward the motion to allow us here in this Legislature to debate this very important issue. I look forward to the debate and, having been involved in bringing organizations of this type together, I am confident that this afternoon will be a day all of us can take some pride in as we jointly and co-operatively work towards addressing the real rural crisis in Manitoba. Budget Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to draw the attention of the House to the record of responsible tax relief that this Government has provided for Manitobans.

Our two budgets are providing $218 million in income and property tax cuts by the year 2003. Our Government is working diligently to achieve sustainable balance between increasing resources in priority areas such as health care and education and providing responsible tax relief and forward planning. We are providing property tax relief in this Budget that will save Manitobans $27 million this year alone. In Winnipeg, the result of our last two budgets will be a 6% reduction in property taxes.

In 2001, we have renewed our commitment to balanced budget spending and our priorities of responsible tax relief and that is to all Manitobans, including corporations, businesses, small business owners and the average citizen. The year 2000 marked the first time that Manitoba's provincial Budget reduced property taxes while also reducing income taxes and business taxes. We are doing it again by cutting the middle-income tax rate to 14.9 percent by 2003. Manitobans will be en joying a 10.5% decrease in the provincial income taxes by 2003 based on our past two budgets.

With the 2001 Budget, 4000 more low-income Manitobans will be removed from the tax rolls. We have increased the basic personal tax credit from $578 to $802, which will help all Manitobans. We have increased the child tax reduction from $250 to $300 per child. We are addressing the pension liability which has been neglected by all

498 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April i7 , 200I governments over the past 30 years. Our Government is keeping its commitment to provide responsible balanced sustainable tax relief for all Manitobans and an excellent quality of life for everyone. Thank you. Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, last Thursday Defence Minister Art Eggleton announced that over the next three years the soldiers and families of the 2nd Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry will be relocated to Shilo.

I was pleased to be in attendance at CFB Shilo last Thursday, along with my colleague the Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) and many, many other municipal officials. There were reeves, mayors, members of the Brandon Chamber and others, the Economic Development Board, members of Parliament, past and present, and many of the candidates. Virtually everyone was there. As Reeve Scotty Mcintosh said, it was a great day to be in Shilo. *(I 4:40) Minister Eggleton's decision finally ends what has undoubtedly been a long and stressful waiting period for the military personnel and families involved.

The decision also puts to rest fears about the future of CFB Shilo. For the individuals and communities involved, I am pleased that Minister Eggleton has finally made the move to relocate these forces to Shilo. As an area MLA, I want to take this opportunity to welcome the men and women of the 2nd Battalion and their families to the Shilo area. I am confident that our communities will provide the services and facilities they will need to ensure a happy and prosperous lifestyle and a safe and welcoming environment in which to raise their families. Thank you. Post-Secondary Education Ms. Nancy Allan (St.

Vital): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to draw attention to the House for the significant investments that we are making in young people through our post-secondary education system. In our 2000 Budget, we made an historic I 0% reduction in tuition fees for colleges and university students, making good on one of our five election commitments. In 200 I, we are proposing to hold tuition at this reduced level by providing $I3 million to Manitoba's colleges and universities to compensate them for lost tuition revenue.

To ensure that our post-secondary institutions remain among the best in Canada, affording world-class opportunities to our young people, we are proposing to increase overall operating grants to our post-secondary institutions by 3.8 percent. Another key component of our plan to restore hope to our young people was to reverse the trend of low college enrolment in Manitoba. Through our Government's College Expansion Initiative, we are addressing the need for training among Manitoba's youth to prepare them for the jobs of tomorrow.

Budget 200I is proposing to allocate $I0 .9 million for the College Expansion Initiative, including support for leading-edge programming. Our 200I Budget is proposing to increase support to the successful Manitoba Bursary Program, announced last year, by $300,000 this year to help students who lack some of the financial means to attend our universities and our colleges.

Our 200 I Budget also builds on the largest capital investment in decades, $IOI million to colleges and universities: $3 I. 5 million is allocated for the Red River College expansion in Winnipeg's Exchange District; for our universities, $50 million is going to the University of Manito ba, $I4 million to the University- Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. Andrew Dean Wychnenka Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today and inform the House of a young man in my constituency whose bravery and quick thinking saved a life and earned him the Silver Cross of Canada. Late last year, Mr. Speaker, Andrew Dean Wychnenka of Pansy, Manitoba, now IS , was presented with the Silver Cross for Bravery by

April 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 499 Canada's Governor General in Ottawa. His award comes as a result of his actions on August 9, 1999, when a horrifying accident occurred on their family farm. Andrew was called out of the house by his young brother, who told him there had been an accident. What Andrew found was his brother Stephen badly in jured from a tractor flip, which had momentarily pinned his head beneath the tractor. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to say that this terrible accident does not have a fatal ending.

Using the skills he learned as a Boy Scout, Andrew quickly took steps to tum the still­ running tractor off, diagnosed the symptoms of internal bleeding, helped his brother breathe and ensured help was coming by instructing that 911 be called. Steinbach RCMP officers have commented that this was one of the most disturbing accident scenes they have come across and that without Andrew's quick thinking it is unlikely that his brother would have survived the accident. Mr.

Speaker, we all hope that we are never involved in an accident such as this, but if we are we would like to be lucky enough to have someone like Andrew Wychnenka nearby to lend assistance. Young Manitobans distinguish themselves in a number of ways each and every day. Andrew can say he saved a life. On behalf of all members of this Assembly, extend my congratulations to Boy Scout Andrew Wychnenka for a job well done and wish Stephen well in his continued recovery. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I would ask Mr.

Speaker for the unanimous consent of the House to allow the agricultural resolution to be brought forward from the notice paper-it is pages 7 and 8-in order to be debated this afternoon. That resolution in fact had been provided effectively as notice to the Opposition two weeks ago, and indeed the last three RESOLVED clauses though were added with regard to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and notice was provided to the other side as to the nature of those RESOLVED clauses before the resumption of the session. So there has been effectively notice provided to members. Mr.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to allow the agricultural resolution to be brought forward from the notice paper in order to be debated this afternoon? The resolution can be found on pages 7 and 8 of the Order Paper. Is there unanimous consent? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: I would also seek unanimous consent for the speaking time limit and debate of the resolution to be limited to 10 minutes per member and that the warning light be activated at eight minutes. That is to ensure that there is a decision of the Legislature made at the sitting today. Mr.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for the speaking time in debate for the resolution to be limited to 1 0 minutes per member and the warning light will be turned on with a two­ minute warning at eight minutes? Is that agreed? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Finally, I seek agreement of the House for the question to be put on the resolution at 5:45 p.m., with all necessary votes to be held at that time. Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement of the House for the question to be put on the resolution at 5:30 with all the necessary votes to be held at that time? Some Honourable Members: 5:45. Mr. Speaker: I will reread that.

Is there agreement of the House for the question to be put on the resolution at 5:45, with all necessary votes to be held at that time? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: It would be the intention of the Government to announce the standing committee sitting if the resolution passes, as we expect and hope that it will, at the end of the day. Just an advance notice, a more detailed notice to follow, but it would be our intention that the Standing Committee on Agriculture meet at 6:30 tomorrow night to determine how to proceed with consideration of the agriculture resolution.

500 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17 , 2001 As well, Mr. Speaker, we will seek consent for the expansion of the number of members on the committee particularly to accommodate the membership of the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) on the Standing Committee on Agriculture. There seems to be some agreement that we deal with this, recognizing that it is anticipatory.

I would like to announce, pending the disposition of the resolution today, that the Standing Committee on Agriculture will meet at 6:30 p.m. on Wednesday, April I8 , in order to have an organizational meeting to discuss how to proceed with consideration of the agricultural resolution.

Finally, I do seek the agreement of the House to vary the membership of the Standing Committee on Agriculture so that during the consideration of the agricultural resolution the membership of the Agriculture Committee will be 14 instead of II and that, of the 3 members being added to the committee, one member come from the Government caucus, one member from the Official Opposition caucus and the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) be the third additional member of the committee?

Once the committee has completed its consideration of this issue, the committee membership would go back then to the II members with the three additional members to come off the committee membership list. Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement of the House to vary the membership of the Standing Committee on Agriculture so that during the consideration of the agriculture resolution the membership of the Agriculture Committee will be I4 instead of II and that, of the three members being added to the committee, one member come from the Government caucus, one from the Official Opposition caucus, and the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerard) be the third additional member of the committee?

Once the committee has completed its consideration of this issue, the committee membership will go back to II members with the 3 additional members to come off the committee membership list. Is there agreement? [Agreed] * (I4:5 0) Committee Changes Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move, seconded by the Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Agriculture be amended as follows: Russell (Mr. Derkach) for Pembina (Mr. Dyck); Morris (Mr. Pitura) for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner); and the one added, Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings). Motion agreed to. House Business Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I am just wondering, do we need a formal motion to put the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) on the committee? Should I add him on that one? I was just wondering if we could add the Member for River Heights onto that passed motion? Mr. Speaker: On the motion passed, is there agreement to add the honourable Member for River Heights-I have it in my hand-as a member ofthe agricultural committee? [Agreed] Mr.

Speaker: It has been announced that the Standing Committee on Agriculture will meet at 6:30 p.m. on Wednesday, April I8, 200I, in order to have an organizational meeting to discuss how to proceed with the consideration of the agricultural resolution, that is, if the agricultural resolution is passed today. [Agreed] Resolution Federal Farm Aid Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I m ?ve, seconded by the First Minister (Mr. Premier), that

WHEREAS increasing agricultural subsidies provided by the United States and the European Union federal treasuries continue to depress world prices for grains and oilseeds; and

WHEREAS Manitoba grains and oilseeds producers continue to have their margins decline

April l7 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 501 because of low prices and rapidly increasing input costs, especially for fuel and fertilizer; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba government and producers requested immediate assistance for grains and oilseeds producers from the federal government for the 2001 crop year; and

WHEREAS the federal government responded with $500 million, dependent upon a provincial contribution of 40 percent, which was denounced as inadequate by Canadian farmers and farm organizations; and

WHEREAS provincial agriculture ministers from Manitoba, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario and Quebec requested an additional $500 million in federal support to address the immediate crisis; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba government, despite limited financial resources, announced that it would provide $38 million toward the aid package; and

WHEREAS the Premier of Manitoba has written the Prime Minister, demanding that he be involved in this critical issue. THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the federal government to recognize federal support supplied in other countries and immediately provide at least a further $500 million in assistance for grains and oilseeds producers; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly urge the federal government to be more aggressive on the international stage in fighting for the removal of foreign subsidies for agriculture; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this resolution be referred to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and the committee be empowered to make such changes to the wording of the resolution as the committee deems advisable; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Standing Committee on Agriculture holds such meetings at such times and places as it may be deemed advisable to receive briefs and hear representation; BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Standing Committee on Agriculture report to the Assembly in a timely fashion. · His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this resolution, recommends it to the House, and I would like to table the Lieutenant-Governor's message at this time.

Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: I just want to add that the Lieutenant-Governor's message has also been tabled along with the resolution. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to rise today to speak on this important issue, and I want to say that I very much appreciate the co-operation that has taken place prior to this session to have this resolution come forward. Mr. Speaker, there were discussions between the House leaders and correspondence between the House leaders as early as March 22, talking about the beginning of the session and the need for a discussion on the resolution.

In fact, the date as early as April 11 was proposed by our House Leader to have this discussion take place. Certainly there has been correspondence from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) to our Premier (Mr. Doer) supporting this resolution. So I am very pleased that we were all able to co-operate and have a debate on this very important topic. As we look at the issue, Mr. Speaker, and if think back about what farmers were saying when they rallied here at the Legislature, farmers said at that time that they were not happy with the $500 million, that there was need for more support for our producers.

At that time we told producers that we had two options, and it was either to take this package or have no package at all. We gave our word to producers that we would take this package, but we would continue to lobby, and there have been letters that have gone from our Premier and from premiers across the country, asking that the federal government recognize their responsibilities. That is why we are bringing this resolution forward and,

502 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2001 recognizing how serious this issue is, is why we are asking that the Standing Committee on Agriculture be involved and that all people involved in the industry, whether they be farmers or business people or municipal leaders or politicians, have the opportunity to take

part in this discussion. It is an unprecedented step that we are taking to have the Standing Committee on Agriculture not only hear from the public here in the Legislature, but we are going to take this committee out to rural Manitoba for people to have an opportunity to share their views and give their suggestions on how this situation can be improved. But ultimately, Mr.

Speaker, the most important thing is that we have a united front amongst municipal and provincial leaders and farm organizations to send a strong message to the federal government on how serious this situation is and how important agriculture is to the economy of this province, and not only to this province but to the economy of Canada. Agriculture plays a very important role in our international trade. Canada is known around the world for our agricultural products, but our producers cannot continue to produce these commodities at these high input costs along with low commodity prices.

You wonder what the reason for the low commodity prices is, and we know that there are several reasons. But basically it is the high level of subsidies that are being provided in other countries. We heard in Question Period that in Europe subsidies are close to 58 cents on the dollar. In the United States it is over 40 cents and continues to rise. Here in Canada our support is somewhere in the range of 11 percent now, and there is no way that our producers can compete with those kinds of subsidies.

We have to recognize that, as we talk about diversification, grain production still is an important part of our economy. Our livestock industry cannot expand if we do not have grain production in this country, but our grain producers cannot survive at these low prices. We have to get the federal government to either have the subsidies reduced or put some money in. In the meantime, the subsidies will not be reduced in a very short time, so we have to have the support.

The federal government has to recognize the importance of western Canada to the economy of this country. * (15:00) The grains and oilseeds sector has been experiencing for a number of years declining prices and declining federal support, and the biggest decline, Mr. Speaker, was the loss of the Western Grain Transportation, better known as the Crow benefit. When that ended in 1995, Manitoba producers lost $116 million per year from our federal government.

That was an agreement that was supposed to be in place in perpetuity, but the federal government at that time thought that this was going to be their good will gesture toward reducing subsidies under the World Trade Organization. However, the removal of the Crow benefit went far beyond what was required, and Canada went forward playing, you know, the good boy scouts. They were going to reduce their supports, but the other countries have not followed. I can tell you, the other countries are telling us, particularly in Europe, that it is not their intention to reduce their subsidies.

So, if we value our agriculture industry, we are going to have to have a government that is committed to recognizing the importance of agriculture. So, Mr. Speaker, I say those words, and I know that here has been a lot of effort. When we listen to what municipal leaders are saying, municipal leaders are saying that we have to have a united front to go to Ottawa. The Keystone Agricultural Producers spearheaded a letter-writing campaign which called on the federal government to make the family farm a priority.

Part of the letter to the Prime Minister states that, and I quote: The large subsidies paid to agricultural producers in other countries make it impossible for the family farm in Canada to survive without timely and adequate support from our federal government. This is the message that we have to take to the federal government. The federal government has to recognize the importance of our family farms, and this is not just about our farmers. This is about our rural communities. This is about our hospitals. This is about our schools in the rural community

April 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 503 because, as we lose families in rural Manitoba, pretty soon you are losing services in the community. There is not enough children to keep the schools open. So there has to be a long-term plan, and that is the message we have taken to the federal government. We need short-term help. We need help to get through this crisis. Part of that is the $500 million that the federal government put forward, but that is not enough, and that is why provinces have joined together to ask the federal government for additional support.

Then we have to work on interim programs, but ultimately we have to work towards long-term solutions to ensure that farmers and people living in rural communities can continue to play the important role that they do play, that is, producing the food for our country and producing food for export. Farmers also play another very important role, and that is managing, being responsible and taking care of the soil, one of our most important assets. That is an important role they play, and sometimes it is not recognized. That is why it is very important that at this time, Mr.

Speaker, we all stand together and send a strong message to Ottawa, pass a resolution here that tells Ottawa they must take more responsibility. I look very forward to going out to hearing the presentations here in Winnipeg, but I also look forward to going out to rural Manitoba. I meet with farmers on a regular basis in the constituency that I represent, but this will be an opportunity for farmers, rural people and urban people to share their thoughts on the agriculture industry.

It will be an opportunity for urban people to show their support for the agriculture industry and stand behind the farming community, and it will be an opportunity for rural people to stand together to make a very strong statement to the federal government. So, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that we are having this opportunity today to talk about the challenges, the challenges of low commodity prices for our producers and the challenges of high input costs and also the challenges that are ahead of us as we work through this immediate crisis and then work on toward long-term solutions.

There is no doubt about the problems that are facing our rural communities, and I want to point to our young people. We announced today in our CMAP program our commitment to our young people and the need for them to have more support, but without additional support from our federal government, it is a very serious challenge that we are facing and one that is very important to the economy of this province.

I look forward to hearing the speeches today from members of the Legislature because that is our job as legislators, to debate this, but I look forward to the next stage of this unprecedented step of having the Agriculture Committee go forward to hear the views of Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak to this resolution today.

First of all, I want to acknowledge the agricultural producers and people from rural Manitoba who have taken the time to drive into Winnipeg today to be with us during this debate. I think this is an extremely critical debate in terms of getting off on the right foot in terms of supporting our agricultural producers and our rural communities. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair I also want to acknowledge and I want to thank the minister for bringing this resolution forward because, once again, I think it is a step in the right direction.

We may disagree in this House from time to time on issues because of our political differences, but, Mr. Deputy Speaker, this goes beyond the boundaries of politics. I think we have to set some of our politics aside when it comes to dealing with the economic, the social and, indeed, to those critical issues that are so important to our rural communities, our families and the people who live in our province. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, although this is an issue that has been around for some time, we have had difficulty in consolidating our message, and not only have we had that difficulty but, indeed, the agricultural producers of Manitoba

504 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17 , 2001 have had some difficulty in trying to get a common message across to government, whether it is at the provincial or the federal level. Indeed, some of the programs that have been introduced over time have not worked. Although excessive amounts of money have been spent on programs, we have found that a lot of the money has been eaten up by administration, and money often does not find its way to where it is needed most. I speak about the agricultural crisis because I live it on a daily basis. I live in a community that depends on agriculture.

I live in a community where the entire community depends on how the agriculture system works, on how the agricultural producers do. Mr. Deputy Speaker, as the agricultural producers fall from the landscape, we also see businesses closing, we see services declining whether they are in education or whether they are in health, and we see the entire community become deprived of the kinds of qualities of life that that community should be able to enjoy. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we had a demonstra­ tion at this Legislature not that long ago, and producers came out en masse to try to emphasize to the government here in Manitoba and, indeed, right across the country about the crisis that was facing our country, if you like. The only way that we are ever going to get any recognition of this problem is if we, indeed, stand shoulder to shoulder and we go forward to the federal government. I say this has to be led by the Premier (Mr. Doer). Yes, my leader will stand beside him. I know he will.

I should not speak for him, but I know he will on this issue stand beside him and demand of the Prime Minister of this country that indeed this part of the country needs to be treated not as a second-class part of Canada but needs to be treated like any other jurisdiction in this country. * (15:10) Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was almost shocked when I looked at the numbers that came out with regard to the support that was going out to the producers in western Canada from the CMAP program.

I could not believe that a farmer in Ontario would be getting in the neighbourhood of twenty-some dollars per acre while a farmer in Manitoba would be getting less than ten. Now, we do not know where those numbers are going to be at precisely, but I would have to say that if you have a disparity of that magnitude then certainly there has to be something wrong with the approach that is being taken in trying to level the playing field within our country and indeed even outside the borders of our country.

Either we are not getting our message across to Ottawa or there seems to be some kind of a problem in Ottawa acknowledging that where the real hurt is in agriculture, because we in the Prairies are the furthest point from any transportation ports that export our product, and indeed we have the highest costs when it comes to transportation. The Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) just talked about the Crow rate benefit that largely helped rural Canada, western Canada.

When that was taken away everybody under­ stood that indeed there would be a replacement of that in terms of the diversification emphasis that would be placed in this part of the world and indeed in the transportation routes that would be upgraded to a level where our products could move freely across this nation. That has not happened, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and those issues have to be addressed as well, but those are more long-term issues. The immediate crisis facing our province and facing our rural communities is that of cash injection to allow our farmers, our producers to put their crops in this year.

When the Government took office I know that the Premier (Mr. Doer) of our province said that his relationship with Ottawa would be better than ours was. Well, I think the reality has struck home. The Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), in an unprecedented move, walked out of a meeting with the federal minister because of her frustration. I saw the Minister of Agriculture also retreat from a rally in front of the Legislature.

These are not easy issues to face, but we as people who undertake those responsibilities have to face those unpleasant circumstances and we have to look those people in the eye and we have to tell them the truth. Are we with them or are we not?

April 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 505 Today I am pleased that the Minister of Agriculture has come forward with a resolution. As I say, the contents of that resolution may not necessarily reflect every aspect of what we would like to see in the resolution, but I have to acknowledge the fact that today she has brought forward a resolution that is going to be debated. We can move forward from here, move forward to support the people of this province that need the support.

At the same time, I have to say that there is still lingering disappointment in the way that the matter of the 1999 flood was handled. I know this does not have anything to do with the flood of'99, but there are families in western Manitoba who are still feeling the effects of that disaster. Although we see some families in southern Manitoba today facing some potential flooding, it comes nowhere near to what those people have faced over the course of the last two and three years, because those people could not put a crop in that year and many of them could not put a crop in the following year.

You cannot exist in any business if in fact you are fighting Mother Nature and there is no one there to help you. When we were in government, I have to say, as Minister of Rural Development, I was an integral part of helping to make sure that money went into that area immediately. We had the support of our Cabinet to move money in there even though we knew Ottawa was not on side, but something had to be done. I know the Premier (Mr. Doer) of our province has said today that money is there on the table provided that we get the federal money.

Well, sooner or later the Premier will have to act because we cannot leave those people out there hanging while we continue to argue about whose responsibility it is. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we acknowledge that there is a great federal responsibility here, but, on the other hand, if we have money that should flow, we need to get that money into the hands of these people so that they can get on with their lives, so that communities can continue to rebuild and sustain themselves. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I know my time is running short. This is but one small step towards a resolution.

We have the farm organizations who have come together. I was happy to be at the meeting in Shoal Lake when Murray Downing [phonetic] walked across and shook hands with the president of Keystone Agricultural Producers and said let us work together. They are working together. We have in the Legislature a spirit of co-operation in working toward a resolution to this very, very serious problem. I do not want to stand in the way of the resolve of this problem. I want to be a part of the solution to this problem, and members on this side of the House want to be a part of the solution to this problem as well. So, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, although this is one step, the next step is to get a meeting with the Prime Minister with members from this Legislature. Indeed, I say let us reach out to Saskatchewan, let us reach out to other provinces who have the same problem, and let us walk together to make sure that Ottawa understands the seriousness of this matter and that, indeed, Ottawa responds in a way, as it should, to meet the needs of the people in these communities so that these communities can continue to survive, can sustain themselves and can continue to en joy the quality of life that other Canadians en joy.

Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): A lot of what I am going to say is going to be very consistent with the previous two speakers on this resolution. I, too, was at Shoal Lake a few weeks ago, maybe about a week before the meeting referenced by the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach), and over and over and over again at that coffee shop, at that meeting room in the back of the restaurant we were at, there were stories of young farmers believing that any equity they had left in their farm was going to be at risk if they planted another crop.

There were farmers who had owned farms for generations who were afraid that any of their sons and daughters would continue in farming and own the family farm and be saddled with the situation where their worth and value is at risk, not just their income but their whole life savings is at risk just by planting a crop. There were people worried about the future of their communities, and they kept asking me

506 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2001 and asking us, and I guess they are asking all of us, does the federal government not understand that we are the most effective and efficient producers anywhere in the world, that we produce more effectively than anyone?

This is not a crisis of our doing; this is a crisis that was created by a combination of federal policies to reduce the investment in transportation as a good will gesture with the world international community which resulted in not good will in return but subsidies going up and up and up in the United States as our investments went down and down and down.

It is not a crisis of anyone's doing, and it is important to get that message across, not just to members of this Legislature, but it is important to join the farmers who are here today, who have been at rallies in the past and who will join us in the future, because this resolution will not do anything unless we can continue to mobilize the public of Manitoba.

That is why I think it is so important that all of us are agreeing, not just to debate this resolution here but take this debate outside of this building into the communities across Manitoba, to tell the story in the most human way possible because people have been left in a situation, the family farm has been left in a situation that is absolutely heartless, when you consider what has happened over the last six or seven years. * (15:20) I cannot believe that when we took the measure in Canada as a federal government to reduce the Western Grain Transportation, or the old Crow rate, and that move was started in 1992-the first $1 00-million tranche was taken away and then the next $1.1 billion was taken away-if you make a move that is so-called good will in nature and if the other parties, your other competitors, do not in-hand move the same way, what is your contingency plan?

What is your long-term contingency plan? To sacrifice the family farm in western Canada for your "good will" at a world trading organization table? That is absolutely heartless in terms of what it means to the western Canadian producer. If after a couple of years of so-called good will the subsidies go up four times in North Dakota and ten times in Europe, you have a responsibility as the person who made that decision in good will to in good will reinvest that money back in the family farm, in investing and maintaining the family farm in western Canada. There is no other moral position you can take.

There is no other economic position you can take, and there is no other position that we can allow the federal government to take than to restore the good will to farmers after you failed to reduce by good will the subsidies in our trading partners. On top of this, of course, is the rising input costs, and members opposite have raised that. We have listened to that. We know it. For our own households, energy prices are a significant increase.

For a producer, it is a quadruple whammy in terms of the costs of maintaining the family farm, whether it is in the fuel prices they pay, directly or indirectly through the fertilizers and other input costs, it is brutal to have a situation where you have negative income, declining input income, and have rising and dramatically rising input costs for the family farm. We need to unite; members have said that before. We need to unite in the short term for the $500 million that we agree upon is required, and we need to unite in the long term. We have been involved for two years now in short-term programs.

We had to write a cheque last year for $40 million to access $60 million. We had to write a cheque this year for $38 million to access the $93-million total. At the same time, we knew both years it was not enough, and both years the money only became available because there was a so-called surplus at year end by the federal government.

I do not think the federal government has decided whether the family farm is effective and efficient and needs their investment to deal with this commodity crisis, or whether they are going to treat us like other producers in commodity markets and just allow the situation to resolve itself in the most Darwinian way. I have heard people talk about the East Coast fisheries. There is no comparison, absolutely no comparison between our situation and the East Coast fisheries, and we have to make that very clear. This is efficient and effective producers. The only reason the prices

April 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 507 are too low to make a living is because of the subsidies in North Dakota that are paid for by the U.S. federal government that are four times greater than the investments here in Manitoba and in Canada Sure we can improve some of the programs provincially. We improved the crop insurance programs for coverage. We are working on livestock initiatives, as the former members did. There is some-$170 million in tax relief in terms of areas that would be subject to taxation under the provincial sales tax and other taxes. We are trying to get more rural doctors.

We are working on strategies on drainage that is a real serious problem in some of our communities. We are working on drinking water, which of course is very, very important for our communities. We have equalized the hydro rate. We are proposing to equalize the hydro rate. We hope we can pass that in an expeditious way in this round in the Chamber. Hydro rate equalization is the least of what we can do in this Chamber. We will work with leadership, whether it is the grass-roots leadership, the KAP leadership, the AMM leadership.

We have good, hardworking leaders throughout our com­ munities who have good ideas of how we can move forward in a very positive way, but we need to be united. We need to be united with Ottawa. If they think we are divided they will stand back and just let the chips fall where they may, and the chips will be painful. Every family farm that goes down will be painful. So I call on members in this Chamber to work in a united way. We know that when we are divided we have no chance with Ottawa. We know when we are united it is tough with Ottawa. I was in Ottawa last year with the Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr.

Maguire) and other members of the Opposition, the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard), and we met twice, three times with the federal government. We met with all our leadership, our farm leadership, our municipal leadership. We met with the federal Minister of Finance. We met with many ministers, the Minister of Agriculture. It took us three months, four months just to get that commitment for the ad hoc program at the end of the year. Yes, we have to unite with other provinces. We are in contact with Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario and other provinces. Last time it was just Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

I pledge to members opposite we will do everything with you and with the farm leadership if we stay united and work united on behalf of the future of our economy, and that is the future of the family farm. Thank you very, very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Committee Change Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Dauphin­ Roblin (Mr. Struthers), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Agriculture be amended as follows: the Member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) be added to the committee. Motion agreed to. * * * Mr.

Jack Penner (Emerson): I guess I consider it an honour to follow the Premier, and I thank him for the remarks that he made, because I think he was sincere in addressing the difficulty in agriculture as he sees it. I also want to thank the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) for agreeing to bring forward a resolution that we can consider for debate today. I want to say to both the Premier and the Minister of Agriculture that we had the opportunity late last week to meet with the farm organization, the Keystone Agricultural Producers. They also brought Mr. Murray Downing [phonetic] and one of his colleagues.

We had the Machinery Dealers Association as well as a representative of the retailers association on farm supplies at the meeting. We had hoped that this would be an all­ encompassing meeting between Dr. Jon Gerrard, the Liberal leader of the House, myself and my colleagues, as well as the Minister of Agriculture, that she might be there. However, as the occasion arose, it was not possible for her to be there. Hopefully she will consider an amendment that we will bring forward at the end of my remarks that we might add to, because I think it encompasses some of the concerns that

508 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17 , 2001 we heard the general fann organization express, as well as Mr. Downing [phoneti c } and the two representatives that were there. We had occasion that same day to meet with the entire AMM board, and they, of course, voiced again also their concern to our entire caucus about the agricultural and the economic dilemma, the crisis they call it, that rural communities were facing. We have seen time and time again where young families picked up their whole lives and left. Not because they wanted to, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but because they were forced to.

There was simply not enough income in what they were doing in agriculture to sustain themselves in their community. And what has that done to our community? Well, one community, the town of Melita, has 40 for-sale signs on homes in their town. I think that speaks very, very loudly about the economic disaster going on in rural Manitoba. We have another municipality, in the entire municipality there is one family left with children under school age. Again, I think that speaks very loudly for what is going on in the rural communities especially driven by agriculture. We can blame this on many things, Mr.

Deputy Speaker. I think when we look at the debates that have gone on in Parliament, in the House of Commons, when we look at some of the debates that have gone on in this building, we can point fingers at each other. Yet nobody, nobody in this building, has the wherewithal, the intelligence to understand what is really going on, nor do we have collectively an ability to move the economic crisis in agriculture to a point of resolve unless, as the Premier (Mr.

Doer) has so eloquently stated, we get co­ operation and a cohesiveness in this country between all provinces, indeed all the farm organizations and indeed the co-operation of the federal government. * (15:30) There are only two ways to resolve this, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and that is to recognize that we are into a trade dispute, some call it wars, some call it other, but basically it is a very fundamental, very simple kind of thing. The fann organizations in the United States have said: We cannot be left out in the cold when Europe starts applying subsidies. Europe has made a socio-economic decision.

They are going to keep nine million people in rural Europe. They simply do not want to spend the money to build the infrastructure and the social programs to bring them into social settings such as Mexico City or Sao Paulo, Brazil, or for that matter, New York or Los Angeles. They simply do not want to see the economic decay and the social decay that goes on when you bring huge hoards of people into one area and watch the deterioration when you cannot handle it, nor can you provide the services. So they made the decision to keep those nine million people on the land. What is the cost? To them it is not a cost.

To them it is an investment. We spent two weeks two years ago in Germany, visiting with government officials, visiting with fanners and mayors and reeves in towns, in some of those smaller communities, and we asked them: What does this do? They said to us: It builds an economic backbone which will give us strength the likes of which no other economy will have. That is something that our federal government does not clearly understand. Mr. Premier, I am not sure that you and your administration fully comprehend the economic impact of that kind of statement.

I am not sure that we on this side of the House fully comprehend what that means. When you take away the ability of a young couple to make a living, you take away the necessity of a school in that area; you take away the necessity of a hospital in that area; you take away the necessity of recreational facilities; you take away the necessity of a general store and a post office; and the community dies. How do I know that? I just need to look at my little community of Halbstadt. There is no post office anymore. There is no credit union. There is no general store. It has all gone. Why? Because the young people left.

It is not the older people that left. We are stiii there, and I consider myself-! have to because I am one of the oldest citizens in our community and many of my neighbours are very similar to my age. Where are the young people? They are gone. Most of them are gone. That is why it is so urgent that we meet and discuss and debate today why we must fix the

April 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 509 crisis in rural Manitoba. That is why it is so important that our Premier not stop his unrelenting approach to bring a resolve and this issue to Ottawa in a much more meaningful way than has happened till now. I say "in a much more meaningful way" because, when I look at the numbers that were brought forward by the program that we have just announced and a new one that we have just come forward, it is important to note that-1 need to ask the Deputy Speaker: Does my 10 minutes count on the amendment that I am going to make? Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes. Mr.

Jack Penner: Did yours include the resolu­ tion? No? Okay. Mr. Deputy Speaker: You are speaking on the main resolution and then speak to the amendment. Mr. Jack Penner: What I am asking is whether I can have a few extra minutes to put forward an amendment that I intend to propose to the House. It is a friendly amendment, I think. All I am asking is for that consideration. Thank you. What I was going to suggest is that the disparity that has been caused by the program which gives Newfoundland $46 dollars an acre and Manitoba $7.45 an acre for support price is simply not sustainable over the long term. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The member's time is two minutes. Mr. Jack Penner: Could I then move THAT IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED that the Standing Committee on Agriculture study and make recommendations, including an examination of whether an additional $500- million federal expenditure would fulfil the needs of grains and oilseeds producers-that should be added after the second RESOLVED­ thirdly, after the third RESOLVED, that would then become the fourth RESOLVED.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Standing Committee on Agriculture study and make recommendations with regard to a meaningful, long-term, sustainable approach to agriculture programming that will allow Manitoba producers to be competitive with their counterparts in the rest of Canada; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Standing Committee on Agriculture study and make recommendations with regard to an ap­ proach to building and sustaining rural com­ munities in Manitoba, including how to produce growth in value-added, higher value agriculture and agrifood industries as well as industrial and manufacturing opportunities.

I move this amendment, seconded by the honourable Member for River Heights, Dr. Jon Gerrard. Motion presented. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The amendment is in order. Is the House ready for the question? Is there any debate on this amendment? The one that is on the floor of this Assembly now is the amendment itself. Since the honourable Member for Emerson had not spoken on the amendment yet, if he wishes, he can speak on the amendment, 10 minutes again. Mr. Jack Penner: Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

My colleagues say they give me latitude to speak on the amendment if I make it very short, so I will accede to their wishes. There are just a few issues that I wanted to raise and bring to the floor. I was speaking last week to a fellow by the name of Mr. John Donner [phonetic] from Ontario, who is a com producer in Ontario. He had just received the provincial portion of the new program that had been ann ounced just recently by the federal government. The Ontario government has already paid its portion out to its farmers. This com producer's portion of just the Ontario payments amounts to $21 an acre.

That is 40 percent of the total amount that he is going to receive. That means, in my view, that he would probably get another close to $30 an acre from the federal side. That would make it very close to $50 an acre in round numbers, according to my calculations. It has been estimated by many that the total amount that will be received by Manitoba

510 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2001 producers is going to amount to roughly about $8 an acre. Why have we got Ontario producers, com producers receiving roughly $50 an acre and Manitoba producers receiving $8 an acre under a program negotiated by our Minister of Agriculture and agreed to by our Cabinet in this province? I do not understand this. Remember that this formula was brought to the attention of our previous minister, who refused to sign on to it. Now, I am asking you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and this House whether there is some way, whether we can just find some way, in a united manner, when these kinds of discussions come up in the future, that the minister would come to those of us that have some knowledge in agriculture and debating and negotiating these agreements, that she would come to us then and also ask for all-party agreement and concurrence and help in negotiating. * (15:40) We have often offered her assistance, that we will go with her to Ottawa when she has her ministerial meeting.

We will sit in the back benches, but when she needs some advice, we will offer the advice free. We say that this is important. We believe that there needs to be a more equitable way of distributing the amounts of money, especially in Manitoba. The hurt could not be greater than it is right here, because the Crow benefit had the largest impact on all the provinces. Therefore the saving by the federal government of doing away with the Crow benefit cost Manitoba producers far more than anybody else in Canada.

Therefore, the compensation here should be higher than anywhere else in Canada, not at almost the lowest point. So we ask that consideration of the Government, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and we ask for future consideration on behalf of all our farmers in Manitoba, because these are the essence of those that will continue to make sure that a rural community survives. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Like many in this Chamber, I am not foreign to a cab of a tractor or a cab of a grain truck in harvest time. My family on both sides, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, have been part of the agricultural fabric of Manitoba since the tum of the 19th century. The Caldwell family in western Manitoba are well known as agriculturalists, as farmers. My great-grandfather Andrew, whom I am named after, homesteaded in the Pipestone-Reston area at the tum of the 19th century, and I spent many, many years of my life on family farms in western Manitoba. On my mother's side, in the Rands family-I was speaking with the Member for Portage (Mr.

Faurschou) last week, and the Rands and the Elgert family in the Portage area in fact have farmed with the Member for Portage in years past and continue to do so. So I come at this issue very much like man y Manitobans, as someone who has lived and continues to live in spirit, if not in practice, on the farms of our province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is no secret the last number of years have been very difficult times for producers in Manitoba.

The ending of the Crow rate, the imposition of free trade, first at the continental and now hemispheric level, the advancing of subsidies both in the European context and in the North American context have all dealt great blows to the agricultural sector in our province. The grains and oilseeds sector have been experiencing a number of years of declining prices, declining federal government support.

In the spring of 1999 in my own part of the province in western Manitoba when I was the elected representative for the Association of Manitoba Municipalities and before that the Union of Manitoba Municipalities for western Manitoba, I had first-hand knowledge and first­ hand experience with the flood devastation that took place in my part of the province in western Manitoba as a UMM and later AMM official with my colleagues at the municipal level in the municipalities, towns and villages of western Manitoba. I know first-hand, as does my colleague for Brandon West (Mr.

Scott Smith), as do my colleagues from Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), from Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), from other rural areas of the province, we know at a personal level from families, from our own experience, from friends who have experienced the difficult circumstances of the agricultural economy over the last decade.

April 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 511 Mr. Deputy Speaker, when the Western Grain Transportation Act was terminated in 1995, something that I am very proud that we on this side of the House were opposed to, Manitoba producers lost $116 million of federal support in one stroke. An Honourable Member: Per year. Mr. Caldwell: Per year, my colleague from Dauphin underscores, Mr. Deputy Speaker, $116 million in one stroke per year. It is important to note that the WGT A was terminated by the federal Liberals, as the Premier (Mr.

Doer) noted earlier, as a good will gesture towards reducing subsidies under the World Trade Organization. That good will gesture has cost us all dearly in this province, has caused untold suffering and hardship for many of our constituents. Producers' input costs have increased dramatically, steadily increased. In 2000, farm operating expenses, on average, rose by 8.5 percent in the province of Manitoba.

In a letter to Prime Minister Chretien sent last month, Premier Doer emphasized that our producers are, and I quote: caught in an international subsidy war that is not of their making and that can only be addressed by federal supports and long-term trade initiatives. Mr. Deputy Speaker, these are the same arguments that our Government took to the federal government in 1999-2000 upon forming Government and which resulted in a program for Manitoba worth a hundred million dollars at a 60-40 cost-shared ratio. These were the same arguments made by the honourable Minister of Agriculture and Food (Ms.

Wowchuk) when she attended a meeting in early February with her counterparts from across the country. At that time, provincial ministers agreed to presenting a united front to the federal government in requesting additional federal direct assistance to alleviate the critical situation in the agriculture sector throughout Canada. Many other organizations are in agreement that the federal government should take more responsibility for helping producers in their current crisis.

For example, the Keystone Agricultural Producers spearheaded a letter­ writing campaign which called on the federal government to make family farms a priority. Addressed to the Prime Minister, the letter states, quote: that large subsidies paid to agricultural producers in other countries make it impossible for the family farm in Canada to survive without timely and adequate fiscal support, financial support from your government.

In addition, the Association of Manitoba Municipalities has written to the Prime Minister requesting additional federal support and noting that, quote: only the federal government has the resources to make an impact on the agriculture crisis that is devastating the rural economy. I want to give credit to President Wayne Motheral, who drafted that letter on behalf of the AMM to Prime Minister Chretien. I have had the privilege of working with Mr. Motheral over a number of years.

Certainly he is well, well respected in both the agriculture community, as an agriculturist himself, producer himself, but more widely in the political arena as a municipal leader of some stature in this country. Our Government has discussed the farm crisis with these two organizations, with the Keystone Agricultural Producers and with the Association of Manitoba Municipalities as well as with a number of other rural organizations and producers, in the last few weeks and months, indeed in the last 18 months since assuming office. *( 15:50) The Premier (Mr.

Doer) discussed this matter during a rural tour of 20 communities last month. My colleague from Brandon West and myself discussed this issue widely both within our constituency and within the region of western, southwestern, Parklands and central Manitoba. Everyone that we speak to is in agreement that the federal government has a responsibility to do more and indeed must do more. That is why the resolution as amended and the resolution that was put forth by the Government today calls upon the federal authorities, federal government to provide at least a further $500 million in assistance for

512 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 2001 grains and oilseeds producers as well as requesting the federal government to be more aggressive in fighting international subsidies. In the Premier's (Mr. Doer) letter to the Prime Minister we also pointed out that the federal government continues to collect the excise tax on farm fuels, which are exempt, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am very proud to say, from provincial sales tax. I credit the Finance Minister and my colleagues in caucus for continuing that exemption. This federal tax raises $20.4 million a year in Manitoba.

In fact, the Manitoba government provides $170.5 million to farmers in direct financial support in taxation revenues forgone. We have argued that using cost-sharing formula adhered to in direct support would imply $255.7 million in enhanced federal funding. Our Government also recognizes the seriousness of the issue for the province as a whole and has taken the very rare and significant step of also requesting that the resolution be referred to a legislative committee to seek input from the public.

Public hearings would offer a transparent and open process through which we could develop a united Manitoba position to send to the federal government, and I implore the members opposite to go forth on behalf of Manitoba producers in a united fashion. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to speak on the amendment and the resolution. In some ways it is incredible that we are here only a few days after the Budget talking about the agricultural crisis and the need for drastic additional measures.

It is extraordinary in the sense that after a budget you would expect that there would be a very clear action plan in place, and there was not. So what is surprising, first of all, and rather extraordinary is that we n eed to go through this program and this committee and the extensive investigation of the situation in rural Manitoba and a clear action plan because there was a failure of an action plan in the Budget. There are, of course, not only problems with the Budget, but there is a very real crisis in rural Manitoba at the moment.

That crisis is apparent for anyone who has spent any time in rural Manitoba in the last weeks and months. Almost daily, I am receiving letters from people in rural Manitoba talking about problems in the farm community, the not just thousands but tens of thousands of acres which are up for sale or rent. It is important that we have better documentation because right now what we have is a lot of anecdotal information, but it is very dishearten­ ing and very concerning.

I am receiving letters day by day about the falloff in business, people who have farm implement businesses, who have supply farm inputs, that there is a dramatic decrease in expenditures and of course a tremendous ripple effect because of the very difficult circumstances in the agricultural community at the moment. It is important to comment a little bit about where we are, about this transition that is occurring now and the transition which is occurring, yes, in response to removing the Western Grain Transportation Act subsidy as it was in support of the railways and the farmers.

When I go out in the agricultural community and the question is asked was it something that had to change, almost without exception, people agree that the WGT A subsidy had to go and that there had to be a new approach, because that change was necessary to build the agriculture not only of the future but the processing industries and the many other secondary value-added industries which are going to be so important for Manitoba in the future.

Of course, we are into our current situation because not only was the traditional support to transportation gone, but we have low commodity prices, low grain and oilseed prices. We are in a situation now where it is not just one grain, but it is essentially all grains and oilseeds which are very low at the moment. We can hope that the circumstances are similar to those in the 1970s where, all of a sudden, there was sufficient global shortfalls and prices rose dramatically and quite quickly. Let us hope that maybe that is going to happen, because it would sure make a difference.

Right now where the commodity prices are, there is quite clear very, very difficult circumstances in the farming community, that there is a need for help, and that there is a need for governments to become involved in trying to

April l7 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 513 work with farmers and those in the agricultural community to find solutions. There are problems that many farmers have mentioned this time, that they are so strapped at the moment that it is difficult to find the equity to make the changes which are needed to be made. So there is a need for access to capital, and this is probably most acute among young farmers. We need to help in ways that wili facilitate and bring the benefits of the changes to the WGT A while protecting those who are in difficulty because of those changes.

It is important as we go out in the committee, the standing committee, that we listen to people and that we are able to make the case, that we are able to make the case here in Manitoba and we are able to make the case with the federal government that there are needs and that those needs, as the amendment states, are not just the additional dollars but is that the right amount and what is the right amount?

Second, what is the long-term sustainable view of agriculture because that is vital, and if this committee does not address that long-term view, as well as the short-term needs, it will have failed and that is why this amendment is so important. There needs to be a long-term vision for rural communities, as well, because it is easier to get through the real difficulties if we know that there is going to be something much more positive ahead, and that is why the last

BE IT RESOLVED in the amendment is so important that we cannot have this committee meeting without addressing this area as well as the others. So I am keen to go with the committee, to work with the other members of the committee, to work together to find a made-in-Manitoba solution. Let there be no mistake that the Liberals are behind the farmers in Manitoba, and I will be there as the MLA for River Heights and as the Leader of the Liberal Party to make sure that every stone is untumed, that everything is done that can be done by this committee to support people in our rural areas, in our agricultural community.

As I have said, it is very important that we look federally and that we look provincially, that we do not pretend that this can just be passed on to some other level of government because there is a vital responsi­ bility at the provincial level.

That responsibility, as we go around in a time when there is a lot of concern about foot and mouth disease, means that we have to be careful of our livestock industry because of this threat as well as the threat which is right there, right now, to our grain and oilseeds producers. * (16:00) There are some critical questions that are part of what we need to ask, of course. We cannot understand why the Rose report was never implemented.

It is important that we have advice from farmers, not only about subsidies and dollars but from people like Owen McAuley who have other suggestions about a vision and a future in addition to just providing more dollars. It is important that the problems in drainage are substantively addressed, not by doing a little tinkering as the members opposite did in the Budget.

There is a veritable chaos in drainage out in rural Manitoba at the moment which is being hardly touched by the NDP government, and though it may be the fault of the previous Conservative government, it is a really, really important area which is not being adequately addressed and needs to be addressed. It is important that we ask, not just for more money in comparison to Ontario, but why there is that difference. Part of the reason is that we have lower value produc