VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. WEDNESDAY, MAY 16. 1984 NO. 39

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1680 The House met at 3;00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER(Russell): Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS ah-1 MR.SPEAKER: MR. TULK: The han. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan).- I think. is quoted in today's Evening Telegram as saying that he is comtemplating issuing licenses to salmon fishermen other than those issued by the Federal Department of Fisheries. I wonder if that quote is accurate>? If it is,could he indeed expand on just what the statement means for the House of Assembly and for the people of Newfoundland?

MR.SPEAKER: The hon. !.finister of Fisheries. MR.MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the issue is such an important one for the fishermen of our Province,as mentioned yesterday during the Question Period and;•s agreed upon by the Opposition 1 that is a disastrous policy put forward from Ottawa, it is a very damaging policy and it seems like the policy position is almost inflexible.

There is no indication that changes will be made to the plan which favours the sports fishery in Atlantic Canada versus the commercial fishery,which shows that the Government of Canada is recognizing the Atlantic salmon as a provincial fish and we are catching New Brunswick salmon, this kind of an attitude, despite the fact that Northern cod is Canadian fish,suddenly the salmon is to be a provincial fish. Because of the 4256

May 16 ,1984 Tape No. 1680 ah-2 MR.MORGAN : effect it is going to have on the inshore fishermen of our Province,and because .there is no indication that Ottawa is listening to what the union and ourselves, the gove rnme nt, and indeed the Opposition is saying, we want changes as Newfoundlanders, that I have asked a number of legal 4257

May 16, 1984 Tape NO· 1681 MJ - 1 MR. MORGAN: advisors to look at the possibility of dealing with the issue directly ourselves. How? In fact, the legal opinion is - and, I understand, that of the courts as well - that indeed we do own the seabed, the three mile territorial limit. If we do indeed own that, as now indicated, legally, well, that would mean we would be able to licence some activity in that zone, and, of course, the fishermen who operate within that three mile territorial zone catch salmon.

Ottawa is not listening to the fishermen's concerns and frustrations, despite the fact that we have compromised, for conservation purposes, as a government, as has, in this case, the union on behalf of the fishermen. But unless there is some progress made on the existing and ongoing talks by the officials today and tomorrow and some changes made by Mr.

De Bane on this policy, within the next few days we are indeed considering in a very serious way, it is being pursued now, the possibility of our licencing directly the salmon fishermen in our Province and let them fish in our waters according to a proper, put-in-place policy that the fishermen and the union will indeed support, without jeopardizing any of the stocks or without taking any measures contrary to conservation purposes. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is a very, very drastic measure to take, it is a very drastic policy to consider, this new one.

It is my position so far as minister that it would have to be fully dealt with through all legal channels, to look at all legal ramifications. I have people giving me advice today. Further, if we can and do indeed issue licences to fishermen within the three mile territorial zone and take over the licencing of fishing activity there, can we also control other things tying into that, such as the fishing seasons? Can we control the gear they use, 4258

May 16, ~984 Tape No . 1681 MJ - 2 MR. MORGAN: the type of gear? There are still legal questions which remain unanswered on that part of it. I understand we can licence . As of right now I understand the legal opinion is we can indeed licence. But if we cannot control the seasons after we licence, that means that if fishermen put their nets in the water as of May 20 , 1984 they would still be operating in violation of a federal government regulation which \ie would not be able to control . So the key thing 4259

Hay 16, 1984, Tape 1682, Page 1 -- apb HR. HORGAN: is if we can control the licencing,plus, in fact, control the seasons, we are going to very much indeed pursue vigorously the possibility of putting in place our own licencing system for the first time in the Province, dealing with the fishermen's problems on our own. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER(Russell): HR. TULK: Right on! Right on! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Fogo.

What the minister has said is indeed a very real departure from the policy of the government and indeed it is a radical change from the licencing policy for fishermen. If,as he says, it is the case, then what it essentially means is that the minister has the power to licence any sort of fisherman in this Province. Now, this is a very serious matter; it is a very serious action that he is contemplating taking~ I want to tell him that on this side of the House we are against the salmon management plan, as we have said so often.

But to make sure, I want to ask him if he has investigated the possibility of what can happen to fishermen in this case if, indeed, such a licencing scheme is put in place by the Province? He tells us he is getting legal advice. Just who is he getting his legal advice from? Is he consulting with the Department of Justice? Where is the legal advice coming from? Because it is very important that the minister know before he makes any move exactly where he stands, where the Province stands, and where the fishermen in b~is Province stand, and what the legal ramifications are for them.

So I would ask the minister where his legal advice is coming from and what are the probabilities for fishermen in this case, if he 42GO

May 16, 1984, Tape 1682 , Page 2 - - apb MR. TOLK : own licencing scheme? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): MR. MORGAN : goes ahead and issues his The hon . the Minister of Fisheries . Mr . Speaker, obviously that is the reason wh y we are having it pursued from every legal aspect, to ensure that the fishermen are indeed going to be protected. The fishermen are saying, and they are saying it loud and clear - I heard a couple of interviews this morning on the various media \<ti th fishermen sne nl;i nq on behalf of groups of other fishermen - that this weekend t.hey are going to defy the existing 4261

May 16, 1984 Tape 1683 PK - 1 MR. MORGAN: federal regulations. Well 1if they do that at the present time they will be subject to penalty through the legal system because they are violating a law or a regulation set down by the Government of Canada, ~na then they are subject to the heavy hand of the law. We saw what happened in Nova Scotia on that last year.

So if we do anything here as a governrnent,we will do it after analyzin~ and assessing the situation totally and fully , legally ln particular, to ensure that when we do something to enable the fishermen to fish that they would be doing it quite legally, and not be subject to acting in any kind of illegal way. MR. NEARY: advice!' MR. MORGAN: Who is giving you your Right now, Mr. Spea~er, I ~.,ill say I am somewhat tempted to almost condone the fishermen going out and defying the existing regulations because the regulations are bad policy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right on. MR.

MORGAN: inflexible We have an inflexible minister, officals who will not listen to reason, who will not listen to Mr. Cashin and his union 1 wh.ich speaks on behalf of all fishermen, who will not listen to this House of Assembly and the Opposition with us. He will not listen to reason in Ottawa. . Because of all of this,why should we have 40 per cent of the incomes of fishermen taken away this year as a result of a bad policy favouring sports fishery in New Brunswick? Why should we let that happen? Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the issue.

I am saying the last resort is to look at the possibility of us acting legally, properly and legally under 4262

May 16, 1984 Tape 1683 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: law of our being able to licence fishermen and being able to control the season. Now, I say again, there is no point in licencing the fishermen if we cannot control the season. What would happen is we would issue a licence next week to fishermen and then shortly after that they would realize that they cannot put their nets in the water until the time limit set by the C~vernment of Canada which controls the seasons of the fishery . If that is not clarified there is no point in issuing licences. The licence issue is not the key issue, it is the seasons of the licencing system for salmon fishermen . 4263

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1684 SD - 1 MR. HORGAN: If it is clearly determined, and I say again, if it is clearly determined in the next number of hours, through '.competent able, the best >V'e have available to us- legal advice,and we are convincen that the legal advice is right, we will indeed pursue further the possibility of issuing licences and controlling the season at the same time to enable fishermen to properly and adequately prosecute the salmon fishery in our Province the same as last year. M_~. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, the hon. member for Fogo. HR.

TULK: Mr. Speaker, the !-iinister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) did not inform this House where he is getting his legal advice from. And I would ask him 1 in the interest of fishermen in this Province and in the interest of the legality of what he is doing when he stands to answer the next supplementary - perhaps it slipped his mind - would he now tell us where he is getting his legal advice from? But let me ask him another question and I will come back to the legality.

Yes·terday in the House the minister seemed, I think it is fair to say, somewhat hopeful that he was going to work out something with his buddy in Ottawa, the federal minister - I suppose he is his buddy, he may not be today - but he see~ed somewhat hopeful yesterday that he was going to work out a solution with him. Now is it th.e case that, given what has happened today, v1hat he is say·ing today, with the statements that he is making that he has lost all hope that he can work out a s·olution with the federal ~Unister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane)?

That is very important and I would ask the minister if that is the case- Are we now in a situation where nothing can be solved for the Newfoundland fishermen? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: 4264 The han. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, the fishermen put

May 16, 1984 Tape No . 1684 SD - 2 MR. MORGk'l: their nets in the \Y'ater last year May 18; May 18 is ='riday , two days a\Y"ay . Ne have t\Y'O officials in from Otta\Y"a today to pursue the issue further, that is from the official level . ~~ - De Bane will not even be able to asses s that position until sometime, I understand, after this weekend, and then we are into next ~qeek . And if the fishermen cannot be told what the fi nal decision of the federal governm ent is until the middle or the end of next week, \Y"hat is the point of changing the seasons anyway, the seaso n has already passed . So there is no point in procrastinating, 4265

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1685 NM - 1 MR.

MORGAN: unless they are procrastinating intentionally down to a point to ::.ay, "Oh,well, it is too late to change _the policy now because of the .: delay we are talking about has already passed." So what I am saying at the present time is if they were sincere in Ottawa about making changes to the satisfaction of the Fishermen's Union, and indeed the members of this House of Assembly :not just the government, the members of the House, because we are all on side in this issue -if they were sincere about making any changes,surely they would not have to wait until now to send officials down to meet with the people of Newfoundland after-what? - almost a month ago Telexes went back and forth from here to Ottawa,including one Telex jointly signed by Mr.

Cashin's union and myself pointing out what should be done with regard to chanqes to the Atlantic salmon policy for this year, -v;·e Have not even had a response to that docurrent, that Telex except a meeting held Monday with a number of fishermen and the union with Mr. De Bane, and a meeting being planned for next week. And I am saying that if that kind of procrastination continues it will be beyond the point of even changing the dates of the season because it will be all passed and it will be too late. That is what I am saying at the present time.

I am saying, "Sure, I am still hopeful that reason will prevail, that the federal officials, the advisers, will listen to what is being said from Newfoundland and will persuade the federal minister or influence him b1r0ugh their advice to change a policy which is having a drastic effect,by the way on 1 the LaPoile district- the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), I am sure will agree - where people ~.;ho earned $15,000 from salmon catch will not ·:earn $1,000 this year from the salmon fishery. They had $15,000 last year, they might not even earn 4266

May 16, H84 Tape No. 1685 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: $500 this year from salmon. When you take away suddenly $15,000 from an inshore fisherman's income in the Province,that is drastic stuff, Mr . Speaker . And,when I reflect again, it is all being done in the name of conservation, it is only in the name of conservation. it is being done to satisfy the appetite and the demands of the Atlantic Salmon Federation, which represents strictly and totally the sports fishery interests in New Brunswick. MR. TULK: Mr • Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Russel~): The hon. member for Fogo. 4267

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1686 ah-1 MR.TULK: Mr. Speaker, the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane) is indeed being somewhat inflexible on this issue and has not acted over the past three weeks, but I would remind the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) for Newfoundland that for the past three weeks he has done nothing about it either.

But let me say to him that we are glad to see on this side of the House that he recognizes that in LaPoile district the salmon fishery has practically been cut out, that the income will be practically nil 1 and we are happy to see that he no longer agrees with the two-week ban on commercial salmon fishing as he did originally. But let me ask him another question.

If he brings in his own salmon licensing scheme is he prepared to pay for the legal costs of fishermen prosecuted by federal authorities? remind him that if he brings in legislation or if he brings in a regulation in this House 1 or whatever he does, the legality of that could be challenged in the courts,and that is where it will be proven whether it is legal or not as was proven with the Upper Churchill legislation that we passed. Is he prepared or is the government prepared to pay for the cost that may be incurred by individual fishermen if they are prosecuted by the Federal Department of Fisheries?

MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, first of all, may I contradict and quite clearly point out that the hon. gentleman is wrong in his

preambleby claiming I have done nothing in the last three weeks on this issue. We sent Telexes, but,more than Telexes, I sat down for a three hour discussion with Mr. Earl McCurdy,who flew into the meeting from Newfoundland. I 4268

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1686 ah -2 MR.MORGAN: sat for three hours with Dr . Art May , with Mr . Scott Parsons, with Mr. Eric Dunne , who is in charge of the Newfoundland region here for the federal governm ent ,and with my - MR.NEARY: That was before the last three weeks . MR.MORGAN: That was te .n days ago. That was a week or so after the last Telex went up there from the union and myself . And there were meetings held this week between the union and the federal government. So it is not right to say nothing has been done. The fact of the matter is that nothing is being done in Ottawa.

We are doing our part to fight it but nothing is beinq done in Ottawa . Now to get back to the legal aspects gentleman shoul d understand this, I said earlier we would issue licenses if there was clea r-cut indication, no question at all,that what we were doing was quite legal and proper and would have have no adverse affect on the fishermen, that the fisherme .n 4269

May 16, 1984 Tap e No. 1687 t1J - 1 HR. HORGAN: would not be penalized, would not be acting illegally, they would be acting quite oroperly and legally under our system, that we would only do it then. N0\'1 if the fishermen do anything on their own, obviously at the present time they are in violation of a federal regulation and are subject to prosecution, to having their fishing gear seized. What they will do with 3,000 to 4,000 fishermen I do not know.

I guess they would use every possible law· enforcement agency available to them over and above their own fisheries officers and try to impose penalties, etc., and prosecutions on the individual fishermen. If we take any action it will only be after we are convinced, totally and fully, no question whatsoever, that what we are doing will result in any action on the individual fishermen. It will only result in the federal government challenging our actions here, which is the sa~e thing that is being done in Quebec, by the way. The Province of Quebec had been delegated authority to licence fishermen. Mr.

De Bane and the federal Cabinet have taken that delegated authority to licence fishermen back from them this year. So ~-.~hat did Quebec do? Quebec says, 1 Nm-.1, one second here. You have taken it back from us, ~ve are going to take it back again through a la~., passed in the National ll.ssei!lbly of Quebec. 1 And it was done, the bill has been passed. That bill gives the Province of Quebec the right to licence fishermen using fixed gear attached to the seabed >•lithin three miles of the coast. That is what is now being done in Quebec. ~To1>1 it is up to Canada through the Supreme Court to question that 4270

t1ay 16, 1984 Tape No. 1687 !II.J - 2 MR. ~10RGAN: legislation, to challenge it through the courts and to prove Quebec legislation is not valid. It is up to the Government of Canada,not up to the individual fishermen. They are not involved in the dispute. They have got a licence from the Province of Quebec, they are not going to challenge the thing through the courts.

It can only be challenged by some other government , So if we do something here 1and if we end up doing it after we are convinced \.,e are doing something quite legal and proper for the benefit of our fishermen in this Province, if that is done and we are convinced we are doing \.,hat is right, it is then up to the Government of Cananda to challenge what we are doing in the courts and determine that what we are doing is not valid. MR. TULK : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Fogo. 42 71

May 16, 1984 Tape 1688 PK - 1 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I suppose it has slippec his mind again for the third time, but I would ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) again to repeat where he is getting his legal advice. Now let me ask him a supplementary question related to the statement he just made. He is saying, and I know that this is true, that individual fisherreen are indeed comtemplating putting their nets in the water come May 18. It .is a fact that they are. He has indicated that he is somewhat dubious as to whether or not he is prepared to .give them his support. Let me ask him this question.

If individual fishermen do put their nets in the water regardless of what regulation is in place, is the government prepared to provide whatever legal aid is necessary for those fishermen in case of prosecution by the federal government? Is he prepared to do that? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: First of all, Mr. Speaker, with regards to the sources of legal opinion, we are leaving no stone unturned, are using all sources of legal opinion.

I would welcome an opinion from my friend, a brilliant lawyer - although we fought in the House, my friend is a brilliant lawyer; not a good politician but a br illiant lawyer - the member for Mount S~io (Mr. Barry). I would welcome his opinion, for he is quite knowledgeable in offshore. My colleague, the House Leader (Mr. Marshall), might not agree with me, but, like my colleague, the House Leader is brilliant in law, so I will ask his opinion as well as help us out here. It is for Newfoundland's sake, for the fishermen's sake, so let him give us an opinion as well. Mr.

Speaker, then, when we are convinced that all legal angles are covered - AN.HON. MEMBER: What about the other lawyers in the House? 4272

May 16, 1984 Ta pe 1688 PK - 2 MR . MORGAN : Yes, my colleague from Humber East (Ms . Verge ) is a brilliant lawyer, as is the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr . Ro berts) who is not in the House right now . Naturally , we will bring in a legislation if we areconvinced we can go that route . Right now, Mr . Speaker, I want to make it clear, we are not con vinced we can go that route . I am not saying we are convinced we can go ,but we are pursuing the possibility to determine if we can - if we can . 4273

May 16, 1984, Tape 1689, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: Say it if you are going to. Ne are determining if we can, and we count on the help of every legal advisor in this Assembly, both sides, to help us. If we are right, and we are all convinced as lawyers and politicians that we are right legally, then if we take action we would naturally disclose our source of legal opinion and advice, naturally we would,and bring it into the House.

Now, on the other matter, which is a rather serious matter because this weekend, for example,Saturday morning, if suddenly there are 2,000 or 500, or 1,000 fishermen who have their nets in the water and suddenly the R.C.M.P. -and I am telling you that it is a pretty big issue out in rural Newfoundland right now. Down on the South coast, in LaPoile district, it is the biggest issue to hit that coast, I think,in the last number of years, except for the han. gentleman, who is always an issue. But seriously, the han. gentleman would agree that it is a big important issue for the fishermen down there.

And if they put their nets in the wate~ down there, or anywhere else in the Province, and the law enforcement agencies are called in and action is taken against them, well, right now it is the responsibility of the individual fisherman, what they are doing. Now, I am not saying I condone breaking regulations, or breaking the law, I am not advocating that, but the fishermen have been saying loud and clear they intend to do it,and I am saying to prevent that kind of messy situation, having individual fishermen 4274

May 16, 1984, Tape 1689, Page 2 - - apb MR. MORGAN: penalized, or thousands of them, we are pursuing the pos sibi lity of doing something legal and proper,if we can do it legally and properly, to prevent any penalization of individual fishermen because of any violation of any law . That is what I am saying. MR . SP EAKER(Russ ell ): MR . NEARY : The hon . the Leader of the Opposition. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . Hon . members are aware that it is the Attorney General(Mr. Ottenheimer) who gives advice to the Cabinet and to the ministers .

It does not make any difference what the other legal minds in the House thi~~ , it is the Attorney Gene ral who give s the hon. gentleman advice, who gives the Cabinet advice . ~IR. t-lORGAN : . The member for Mount sc io (Mr . Barry ) can , too, if he wants .to . 4275

Hay 16, 1984 Tape No. 1690 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: I am going to ask the hon. gentleman if he has discussed this matter with the Attorney General, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) or is the hon gentleman just speaking off the cuff, off the top of his head, making statements that he cannot back up? Has he discussed the matter with the Attorney General and, if so, what did the Attorney General agree to do about this? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Hinister of Fisheries. HR. MORGAN: ~r. Speaker, the Attorney General is not involved in licencing of fishermen, at least I hope not 1 in any other province.

He will arrange for legal counsel to be available to all departments of government. Whenever an issue needs clarification or legal opinion, counsel in the Justice Department is available to all departments of government, in fact, all agencies of government. So that is one source of legal opinion ,obviously. But surely if we are going to deal with such a major issue as that we would want every possible d~versification of opinion, diversified opinion, from all sources wherever we can find it in, and I have done that.

As of the last twenty-four hours, I have gone to a number of prominent people who are quite knowledgeable in marine law. And the hon. gentleman from Hount Scio (Mr. Barry),maybe he can comment accordingly during the debate this afternoon 1 or even during Question Period now , that what I am saying is to date the legal opinion is that we can licence within the three mile territorial zone,providing, of course, the gear will be fixed to that zone and fixed to the seabed in that three mile territorial limit.

But the question that is now being addressed and awaiting legal opinion is upon doing that, licencing to operate within that zone, can we then also control the seasons? If we cannot legally control the season there is no point in taking action on licencing, because the season is the issue at the present time. Licences are already 4276

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1690 SD - 2 MR. HORGAN: out there issued to the fishermen, but the licences are controlled oy seasons set by the regulations of the federal government. That is the legal aspect not addressed. And the legal people are now looking at it to determine if we can also set the seasons. MR. TULK: t1R. MORGAN: Just like that! The hon. member for Fogo (.Mr. Tulkl, like myself being a layman >V'i th regards to this matter, may laugh ,but the hon. member for Mount Scio (.Mr. Barryl, I think, is listening to what I am saying and I am sure h.e will agree that there a.re two ques-tions to be addressed, MR.

NEARY: Youhave gone mad. I think you have gone off your rocker. ME,. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman thinks· I am gone mad , he should talk to some of his fishermen who I talked to yesterday and this morning from around the South Coast who are saying to me, •no.not leave any stone unturned, pursue every possible angle because we are not getting any support from our member' ._ And they are not getting any support from th_eir member. He is too me as 1 y, he is too afraid, he does not have the courage of his convictions to attack the federal government on the issue 4277

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1691 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: because he is afraid he may lose his Senate appointment. Let us call a spade a spade. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: Am I gone mad now, Mr. Speaker? The fishermen are saying that he is not going to jeopardize his appointment set for the middle of July. "Our member is not going to jeopardize his appointment the middle of July to the Senate. He is not going to attack the federal goverment, a policy approved by the Government of Canada , r·ri th co. lea.Cl .ership convention coming up and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

De Bane) being a key organizer with the Chretien campaign,' and he is supporting Mr. Chretien. Let us call a spade a spade in the House. Why should the fishermen suffer the conseque~ces of these kind of mealy mouths in the House of Assembly who are afraid to take stands ou~side the House on a major issue? That is the whole issue today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mealy mouth, mealy mouth, mealy mouth politicians. And then he stands and says, Oh, I am gone mad. Yes, Mr. Speaker, gone mad. The fishermen understand what we are trying to do for them.

That is what the people in Ottawa said about the new legislation now approved in Quebec; 1 They cannot licence the fishermen in QuebPc, they have not got the right to licence fishermen with fi xed gear, to put in lobster traps, put fixed gear in the three mile zone. They have no right to do it.'' But last week I found out that the legal people in Ottawa are saying, "I am not convinced that we should even challenge the legislation through the Supreme Court because we are going to lose. Let us have New Brunswick go ahead and challenge it first." So New Brunswick is now taking action to question the legislation 4278

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1691 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: of Quebec , because New Brunswick will be so adversely affected by a new policy put forward by the Quebec Government.. Now the theme in Ottawa is, "No, let us hold back for a while . Let us not challenge the Quebec legislation on licencing of fishermen . We may lose the case." Ottawa is saying this. "Let New Bru .nswick go ahead first and challenge the legislation to see what happens there." So now they are dubious in Ottawa with regard to the right of provinces to licence activity of fishermen within a certain zone, in this case three miles . Mr .

Sp~aker , to the question that was asked,again I want to say that th is is not an issue that suddenly an off the cuff comment is made about . It is not. It is a serious issue and we are trying to find every pos si ble angle of resolving a serious issue to retain the incomes of thousands, in this case 4,000 commercial , full-time fishermen in the Prov ince . That is wha t we are trying to do . 4279

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1692 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I believe the han. gentleman owes it to this House and owes it to the people of this Province to identify the legal advice that he has. As I indicated,it is the Attorney General that gives ministers and the Cabinet advice. Now would the han. gentleman indicate - MR.MARSHALL: of order. MR. SPEAKER: Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point The han. President of the I should have risen on a point of order when the han. gnetleman asked the question before .

The Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) answered the question anyway, but he is clearly out of order in asking what advice the minister has received from law officers. I refer to Beauchesne, page 130, "A question oral or written must not: (gg) seek information about matters which are in their nature secret, such as decisions or proceeding of Cabinet, advice given to Crown by Law Officers, etc." So, Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order because the precedent should not established of the hon. gentleman getting up and asking ministers what advice they have received from legal officers of the Crown. SOM .E HON.

MEMBERS : MR.BARRY: XR.SPEAKER: Scio. MR.BARRY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Mount To that point of order. The Government House Leader (Mr.Marshall) is totally out of order in making such a ridiculous submission. The 4280

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1692 ah-2 MR.BARRY: Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) and the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) quite legitimately asked, as they are entitled to, whether the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan), a Minister of the Crown, in giving advice to the House whether that minister has sought advice from Her Majesty's Attorney General,which is the only legal advice that the Minister of Fisheries is entitled to rely on. _ MR.MORGAN: MR.TULK: MR.SPEAKEa(Russell): MR.BARRY: That is not true. It is true. Order, please!

If the Minister of Fisheries is saying that as Minister of Fisheries he is entitled to take a position which is contrary to the legal advice given the minister by H~r Majesty's Attorney General,then I would like for him to confirm that that is his position so that we can know that a new parliamentary procedure is being established in this government. MR.MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order. The han. Minister of Fisheries to that point of order.

MR.MORGAN: I find it rather strange that the member-now not a minister-in the Opposition stands and says that the only legal opinion that a Minister of the Crown is entitled to receive would be from the Attorney Ge .neral. MR.BARRY: Rely on. MR.MORGAN: Well,rely on. We have not brought inanything to rely on yet. I am saying we are listening to all opinions. At the same time, Mr.speaker, I recall-and I am sure I am correct in what I am saying. when that same member 4281

May 16, 1984 Tape no. 1693 MJ - 1 MR. MORG/I.N : w·as a Minister of the Crovm responsible for Energy and the offshore, he engaged legal opinion from various parts of the world, the best ex~ertise t>Ve could find, and rightly so. HR. BARRY: (l!r. Ottenheimer) . ~-1R. MORGAN: Through the Attorney General Yes, engaged through the Department of Justice. We are entitled tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, any minister here, on behalf of government to engage legalcounsel above and beyond the Attorney General's legal counsel but it all channelled through the one Department of Justice. That is straightforward, Mr.

Speaker, there is nothing out of order on that. MR. BAR..~Y: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Scio. MR. BAR..~Y : Again to the point of order, Mr. The hon. the member for Mount If that is the precedent the Minister of Fisheries (r1r. Morgan) is relying on, he should go back and check the Orders-in-Council. To my best recollection the advice received from task forces of lawyers that were set up, for example, on the Upper Churchill went to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer).

The l~inister of Energy made the request of the Minister of Justice, but the report went to the l-1inister of Justice, the Attorney General, who then gave a.dvice to Cabinet and to the Minister of Energy. I would submit to the l-!inister of Fisheries that he is engaging on a very perilous course if he stands and asks the fishermen of this Province to engage in a course of conduct based on the legal advice of anybody other than the Attorney General, the Miniser of Justice of this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair has heard enough argument for this point of order. The

section quoted by the hon. the 4282

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1693 MJ - 2 HR. SPEAKER (Russell) : President of the Council (Hr. Harshall) on the botton of page 130 and top of page 131 of Beauchesne, shows the question is out of order if it does 'seek information about matters which are in their nature secret, such as decisions or proceedings of Cabinet, advice given to the Crown by Law Offices, etc." I am not entir.ely certain the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) ,.,.as asking what advice had been given or asking what source of advice the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Hr. Horgan) was contacting. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I presume? MR.

SPEAKER: has now expired. HR. NEARY: by leave? S0!1E HON. .1-'lEZ.ffiERS : So that question is in order then, The time for the Question Period Too bad. Couln we get the answer Oh, oh! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING A..T-JD SPECilL COHMITTEES MR. AYLWARD: MR. SPEAKER: !.ffi. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Kilbride. Mr. Speaker, the Select Committee of the House of Assembly a~pointed to enquire into, hear evidence upon and make reco~mendations concerning the draft bill, 'An Act To Incorporate The Certified General Accountants Association Of Newfoundland,' has completed its deliberations.

Having studied the proposed legislation and hearing evidence from the Certified General Accountants Association of Ne~·rfoundland, the Society of 1-'!anagement Accountants of Newfoundland and the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Newfoundland, the Committee recommends the introduction of the attached draft bill, 'An Act To Incoroorate The Certified General Accountants Association Of ~1ewfoundland.' 4283

May 16, 1984 Tape 1694 PK - 1 MR. AYLWARD : The Comm itt ee is of the opinion that the proposed draft satisfies tie recommendations and the requirements of the ~ertified General Accountants while addressing the concerns of other interested parties. Mr. Speaker, while I am standing I would like to thank the Vice-Chairman of the Committee, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). I wish to note that we started this Committee before the last provincial election, and I would like to thank former members of our committee, the former member for the district of Terra Nova, Mr.

Lush,who served with us; the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt) 1 who did a lot of work on this Committee; and the member for st. John's West (Mr. Barrett). And the Committee now looks forward to starting its deliberations on The New Companies Act , and we welcome to our Committee the member for st. Mary's-The Capes (Mr. Hearn), the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews) and the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER(Russell): It being Wednesday,we proceed with Motion No. 5 on the Order Paper which was introduced last Wednesday, and 1 of course 1this is the second day for it. The debate last day was adjourned by the han. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CROSS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In rising today to speak to this motion so ably moved by the hon. member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) 1 I want to say that I will be supporting the 4284 .

May 16, 1984 Tap e 1694 PK - 2 MR. CROSS: resolution. I see it as a very good resolution. I can support every word that is in it. It is a good resolution. Certainly it has a good chance of passing in this han. House. It is not political, and naturally it was presented.by a member who has a concern for an area of the Pr .ovince that he represents. Mr. Speaker, as I said prior to adjournment on last Wednesday,! am familiar with the West coast of the Province and I visited that part of our great Province on many occasions. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, not only the West Coast but I can honestly say that I have sailed around the Island of Newfoundland from Cape Bauld to Port aux Basques, along the Northeast Coast an~ the South Coast ,and als ·o I have sailed as far North in Labrador as Cape Mugford 1which is very far up the Coast of Labrador. And although I have not sailed through the Strait of Belle Isle, I have many times driven the Viking Trail and I have also visited the Codroy Valley andthe Port aux Basques area on quite a few occasions.

And I can agree with the mover of this motion that it is a very picturesque and scenic area of our Province. 4285

May 16, 1984, Tape 1695, Page 1 -- apb MR. CROSS: I listened with much interest to what has been said in debate on both sides of the House The member for the Bay ·of Islands(Mr. Woddrow) did a good job in introducing the motion, and I enjoyed what the member for St. Barbe(Mr. Osmond) had to say. What he said amply proves that he has an understanding of what goes on and what has gone on in his district. The hon. the member for Mount Scio(Mr.

Barry) mentioned the attractions that some of the European cities have for tourists and he said that we must have more than scenic attractions and wildlife to attract tourists, and I can agree that we must have more. In the growth of the tourist industry in Newfoundland there must be events planned and sites developed to keep the tourists busy for longer than they intended to stay, and, Mr. Speaker, entertainment for them to ensure their return. Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains(Mr.

Warren), a former student of mine, may I say, talked about the Norma and Gladys, and his opinion was that she should not sail around the Province carrying tourists but be used as a museum, in a fixed position. Mr. Speaker, I beg to differ with him. I would say that as long as the vessel is seaworthy,and we should leave that to the inspectors, she should sail our waters as a relic of the past, as part of our heritage that should be preserved. That vessel is a symbol of the banker and the schooners that sailed to the Labrador by the hundreds.

The sight of her on the waters of Newfoundland would fill the hearts of many of our older people with joy and give the younger ones a glimpse of the past that is a part of our history. ~tr. Speaker, it was Oscar Wilde who said, "Anyone can make history, but only dedicated individuals can preserve it." 4286

May 16, 1984, Tape 1695 , Page 2 -- apb ~m. CROSS: Mr. Speaker, the hon . the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) indicated that we \.;ere not putting enough of our dollars into our resource -based industries, tourism included. And , Mr . Speaker, I am inclined to agree with him that it is from those industries that new dollars are created. I am firmly convinced that the present government would be putting more dollars into the industries if the dollars could be found.

Ever since Confederation, for twenty -three years under the Liberals , and for the past twelve year or so under the Progressive Conservatives, the vast bulk of our dollar~ have been spent to bring services to our people, and with spiralling costs I am afraid that practice will have to continue in future . Mr . Speaker, I certainly say this because the dollars are few, and, as I said in an earlier debate, we have three avenues for money and those are taxes, borrowing and resources , 4287

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1696 SD - 1 MR. CROSS: Mr. Speaker, if we cannot get a greater return from our major resources - our hydro and our oil - to give us the dollars to develop our non~renewable resources, our tourist potential, our fish, our forests and our agricultural potential will not be developed to their fullest to give us more new dollars. Hr. Speaker, all of Newfoundland has great potential for tourism. Every bay has different scenery and a different cultural h.eri tage. The area of our Province that I represent has much to offer in tourism.

The ~o~aters of Indian Bay can boast some of the best trout fishing anywhere in Newfoundland. And very often, Mr. Speaker, the prize fish on the long weekend has been taken from the waters of Indian Bay ·. Las ·t Spring on a Friday evening as people "rere arriving I sat in the home of a man in Indian Bay and listened to the cars and the trucks and the trailers and the jeeps passing by to go in. It was just one steady rush of traffic for about two hours. That area has much to offer to the sportsman. And, Hr. Speaker, we have berries of all kinds that can be picked in the wild.

The many ponds and woods through the area have small game. The beach of Cape Freels North, go anywhere in Newfoundland, cannot be surpassed by any beach in the Province. We 'have old scenic buildings; the Barbour House in Newtown, the Blackwood House in Wesleyville, the old historic churches whose rafters rang with hymns and sermons held for sealers before they left to prosecute the seal fishery. We have the community of Greenspond with its old buildings and a fascinating muse.um, Mr. Speaker.

There was · a period in th.e history of Greenspond when more fish, cod liver oil, seal oil and seals, more tons of these commodities were shipped from Greenspond more than any other shipping port in Newfoundland in that period ot: his ·tory. Yes 1 Mr. Speaker, every community 1 from 4288

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1696 so - 2 MR. CROSS: Garnbo to Cape Freels Nor .th including Greenspond, has something different to offer to the visitor whether he is a Newfoundlander or a Canadian or from any other nationality. 4289

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1697 NM - 1 MR. CROSS: Mr. Speaker, before I take my seat I want to let all members and the people at large know of an event that is taking place in the great historic district of Bonavista North starting on May 28. I am sure everyone in this hon. House has heard of David Blackwood, a native son of Bonavista North who was born in Wesleyville. He is a young artist who has made his mark already, one whom I believe is destined to become a great Newfoundland-Canadian artist.

The Cape Freels Arts Council will be opening a special exhibition of the works of David Blackwood, and some forty-five prints will be on exhibition starting at 7:00 P.M. on May 28, 1984, carrying through until June 2, at Memorial Elementary School, Wesleyville. Why not come along and view the works of art of an esteemed great Canadian artist? Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : The hon. member for Humber West. MR. BAIRD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to support the resolution so ably presented last week by my colleague, the member for the Bay of Islands (Mr.

Woodrow) on the tourist industry and promotion for the various attractions for the West Coast. I noticed, which is very rare in the five years I have been in the House of Assembly, that members of the Opposition and Government sides seem on the same line and are very supportive of this resolution. It is probably a first in many ways, and I am very pleased to see it. To start off, Mr. Speaker, I think tourism is big business for small business. Millions of dollars enter our Province annually through the thousands of tourists who visit our shores by air, water, motor coach, recreational vehicles and by car.

Many, mamy thousands of Newfoundlanders derive their source of employment from the tourism industry. 4290

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1697 NJ-1 - 2 MR. BAIRD: Mr . Speaker, this administration is very cognizant of the importance of the tourism industry and the spin-off effects it has throughout the Province in the catering business, handicrafts, travel guides, hunting , etc . And in 1982, Mr. ttike Joy, who is the former manager of tourism for the Province, was transferred to Corner Brook as the tourism officer for the West Coast of the Province . Since Mr. Joy has come to Corner Brook, I am very pleased to say that many, many more motor coach trips, which originate dm11n in the States and Mainland Canada, have been visiting the Corner Brook area, Gros Morne back again. 4291

May 16, 1984 Tape 1698 PK - 1 MR. BAIRD: I would say every member of this House of Assembly, including the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has been fighting and encouraging CN Marine to supply a better, bigger, more capable ferry than we have had on the Gulf, which has really been a cattle boat for many, many years. I understand in 1985 we will have a much faster, modern ferry which should encourage tourism, especially the tourist who come to Nova Scotia and sometimes, because of bad weather conditions on the 90 mile Gulf stretch, change their minds about corning here.

However, I do feel that the 90 mile water stretch certainly should be subsidized by our federal government to the tune where the cornparisions are pretty similar to the Trans-Canada Highway. When you consider the cost of travelling anywhere in Canada in comparison to that 90 miles for the tourists to come to the Province, it is certainly a big deterrent. A lot of people with limited funds arrive in North Sydney and once they learn the fares on the ferry go back to either P.E.I. or the Maritime Provinces or where they carne from rather than coming over and spending a few dollars which are badly needed in our area.

My colleague from the Bay o£ Islands (Mr. Woodrow) gave us some details. I think the Gulf ferry, as I just stated certainly should be subsidized. The cost works out to thirty cents a mile by car on the Trans-Canada Highway. We are Canadians now and should be paying a fare based on 90 miles at thirty cents a mile. We should be paying $27.00 on the Gulf ;ferry. .ME. NEAEY: It is not much more than that now. 4292

May l6, l984 Tape 1698 PK - 2 .MR. BAIRD: I think you would work it all out and see what it would cost you if you have three or four passengers in your car and have a meal. MR. WOODROW: Two hundred dollars back and forth. Just two people, one trailer, costs $100 each way. MR. BAIRD: I can get the figure for the han. member if he would like, but I do feel that it certainly should be subsidized. However, ~x. Speaker, I will dwell on the West Coast of the Province where I represent an area.

Certainly the weather, the scenery, the sa~on fishing are excellent - no fog, very few Townies - and it is really an area where - MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (.Aylward): MR. BAIRD: themselves. .MR. RIDEOUT : MR. BAIRD: You are the only one. Order, please! - tourists seem to enjoy The Speaker is upset, 'Ray' • The Speaker is not exactly from in town, he is out where they keep quite a few cattle. However, Mr.

Speaker, the previous two or three speakers have elaborated on the various aspects that are out there, the beauty of the Gras Marne National Park, where considerable dollars have been spent these past two years by our federal government, I am very pleased to say. It certainly is a big tourist attraction. The Bay of Islands tour boats offer cod jigging. woods Island is as pretty .an island as any I have seen, and I have been around quite a while. We have the Stephenville Festival, the Bonne Bay regatta, and, this year for the first time, we have a Strawberry Festival in Humber Yalley. 4293

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1699 ah-1 MR.BAIRD: I do not know how many members from this area have visited Big Falls in the Sir Richard Squires Park on the West Coast. Big Falls, of course, is the national park and I have been there with several busloads of tourists who came in and you can go there any time in the Spring and Summer and see schools of salmon continually jumping the falls there. It is a beautiful park, a very natural park, and a big attraction on the West Coast, and every tour bus that comes in wants to visit that park.

However, the road to that park is in a deplorable condition and has been for many years. The member for the West Coast area - Mr. House is a member for that area, Mrs Verge, Mr. Woodrow and myself - have all had meetings with the Minister of Transportation (Mr.Dawe), and I am very pleased to see that he recognizes the problems we have, but even with limited resources I am still very optimistic that very shortly when the roads programme is announced some upgrading will be done in that area this year. The Humber River, I thinK, some of you people are familiar with it, is the best salmon river in the Province.

Certainly it has been yielding the bigger salmon. Last year the biggest salmon landed by a Corner Brook native was thirty-seven and three-quarter pounds, the year before it was twenty-nine and a half pounds, and every year the largest salmon landed always comes from the Humber River. Of course, unfortunately now with the way the federal government has been 4294

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1699 ah-2 MR.BAIRD: managing our salmon stocks, we are down to the situation now where we have to catch and release the grilse only. So tourism in general will suffer somewhat when tourists and locals alike Hill not be able to go and catch the trophy salmon that every one has been after for years. In the St. John's reqion you have some downhill skingJ but because of the weather most people in here have been going to the beautiful West Coast Marble Mountain ski area where we have skiing from mid-December right up until March month.

I am very pleased to see the Minister of Development (Mr. w1ndsor) had a meeting only one month ago with the councils in Corner Brook and then called for proposals from private enterprise whereby that area can be developed into a year-round resort. If anybody has gone up on ±he ski lift and looked down over the Humber Valley, that whole area, there is certainly a big potential there for a year-round resort.r feel that nothing but good can come of that area and that within the next couple of years there certainly will be a year-round resort there.

So if all of you members would like to come out to the West Coast,I am sure that you will _find we are a hospitable people. MR.TULK: Do you still have that boat? MR.BAIRD: My boat,unfortunately or fortunately,I sold last week.But if you do come out and you have a few dollars I will see that there is a boat available for charter to you. And if you pay for the boat 1I might even accompany you. ~1R. BARRETT: No more free rides. MR.NEARY: You have been a free ride for the last four or five years. 4295

May 16, 1984, Tape 1700, Page 1 -- apb MR . RIDEOUT: free ride. You are on your last MR. BAIRD: I will not discuss free rides today. There are lot of boats available for charter on the West coast. Again, as I have stated, the weather is certainly ahead of anywhere on the East coast, and up where the han. member is from, where the ice is still hampering things. We have no ice in Corner Brook. We have an ice-free port, we have an eighteen hole golf course, we have a mill there which I think will be straightened away very, very shortly. It is certainly a big tourist attraction.

When tourists come to Corner Brook they like to go to the mill and visit the golf course. In the Wintertime we have plenty of snow for skidooing. Anything you want is on the West coast. And, of course, the members are second to none, Now, there is one particular spot on the South­ west coast and I am not too sure of that particular member. However, he has been around for a long while and I certainly - MR. NEARY: object. MR.

BAIRD: A Victorian When I was growing up I was always told to have respect for old age and longevity, and seeing that that member only has a short time left - if he does not make the Senate, well, then, there is an election coming up so I guess I ~·Jill only have to look at him for another year out of the: next ten or fifteen years that I intend to spend here. MR. NEARY: It was only back in 1982 you said you would miss me if I were not here. MR. BAIRD: I would miss you like a hole in the head. 4296

May 16, 1984, Tape 1700, Page 2 -- apb MR. BAIRD: However, it is nice to see your face. The member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) does have a few good sides to him, not too many. I said a few. A few is more than two but less than five. One time I did enjoy him, when he reminisced about his trips - he was then is a humorous mood rather than a nasty mood, squirting his poison across ·the floor - back and forth to Bell Island, and how the moon was shining down, and how he sang a little ditty. It was nice to hear an old gentleman reminiscing about the good times. MR. NEARY: MR. BAIRD: mouthorgan. I played the mouthorgan.

Probably playing the It is unfortunate he had to leave that area and go represent another one because he could be still reminiscing about going back and forth on the ferry. However, Mr. Speaker, the member for Bay of Islands(Mr. Woodrow),I think this is the third year that he was not quick enough on his feet to get this on the agenda. I am pleased that now he has. He has brought out some good points about all aspects of the area which are certainly good for the tourists.

As to the number of bus tours, you will find out that they do not want to come to the East too much because mileage is a big thing, from Port aux Basques to Corner Brook is one hundred and thirty-odd miles~ They come in,spend a few days, travel to the Gras Marne area and then they like to go back again. So the potential for tourism is much greater on the West coast than it is on the East coast. Much has been done, but a lot more has to be done. 4297

May 16, 1984, Tape 1700, Page 3 -- apb MR . BAIRD : I disagree with the member for Mount Scio (Mr . Barry) ~o~ho last week was over in Europe - I cannot afford to go to Rome and to all the areas to which he travels, so I pretty ,.,ell travel in our own area. I am go ing to the South coast this year, maybe down around Belleoram somewhere . That is the trip I take South - when he talked about the tourists not being interested in just coming in to see trees and wilderness areas. I would like to disagree with the member for Mount Scio very , very str ongly .

I have been associated with many tourists , and for many years I have done a lot of work and promotion in tourism , long before I becam e involved in politics, 4298

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1701 MJ - 1 MR. BAIRD: and I think the big t~ings they enjoy which draw many, many back again and again is our wilderness and unspoiled scenery. ~here is nowhere in this Province where you cannot go to a river or brook and dip down and get a glass of water to quench your thirst, when there is nothing else available, which is certainly _not too common in the rest of North America. So, Mr.

Speaker, I have no intention of taking up my twenty minutes, since I know there are some others on our side and over there who would like to speak, and if you need twenty minutes to say what you want to say, it should be left unsaid. But ] certainly would like to finish up with a little poem that most of you are probably familiar with. I think it is certainly befitting our Premier, a man who is certainly doing what he can, the first Premier, really, who works an eighteen hour day - MR. NEARY: He is the laziest. You were doing all right until you got up to that. MR.

BAIRD: - contrary to what the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) says. One thing about the member from LaPoile, I do not know if he is lazy or not but his mouth certainly is not lazy. If we could only harness that for energy we would not have to worry about the Qpper Churchill Falls. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. BAIRD: However, as I think our Premier has lived up to this little poem, I am very pleased to say, I support him 100 per cent. It probably is much too late for the hen. member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) _ to read this now because he is gone. sometimes will,/ 'When things go wrong as they 4299

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1701 MJ - 2 MR.

BAIRD: ~~lhen the road you are trudging seems all uphill,/ When the funds are low and the debts are high/And you want to smile but you have to siqh,/ When care is pressing you down a bit,/ Rest if you must but don't you quit,/ Life is queer with its twists and turns,/ As every one of us sometimes learns,/ And many a failure is turned aboutjwhen we might have won if we stuck it out,/ Don''t give up though the pace seems slow,/ Your success may come with another blow,/ And you never can tell how close you are/!t may be near when it seems so far,/ So stick to the fight when you're hardest hit,/ It is when things are worst that you must not quit.' In conclusion 1 I would like to encourage the Minister of Development (M~.

Windsor) and to congratulate him on the job that h~ has been doing. I would like to see our efforts stepped up even moreso with the 27 per cent unemployment we do have on the West Coast. Tourism means dollars and dollars mean jobs. So again I would like to encourage the minister to keep up his efforts and step up his efforts. I am very supportive of the motion and I would like to thank the member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) for introducing it. Thank you. SOl-iE HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: rtr. Speaker. 4300

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1702 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Opposition. After listening to the previous two speakers, Mr. Speaker , I am almost tempted to say, 'Praise the Lord'. Mr. Speaker, the resolution that we are debating today, Private Member's Da y, I believe this is identically the same resolution that was introduced by the han. member for the Bay of Islands (~r. Woodrow) on two previous occasions. This is the third kick at the cat, I believe. I do not know if the han. gentleman changed a word in the resolution. AN HON . ME~.ffiER: He would not give up. MR.

NEARY: It is the same resolution. And, Mr. Speaker, I notice hon. gentlemen who have participated in the debate so far are finding it very difficult to say new things in supporting this resolution. we are going to support the resolution necause it is a motherhood issue and there is nothing controvers-ial in it, nothing sinister about it. It was brought in by the han. gentleman in good faith, I think, for the third time. So we are going to support it. Bu.t in supporting it, Mr.

Speaker, I would li .ke tc put forward a number of things to the House that I feel should be done in the way of promoting tourism in the Western part of the Province. As hon. members are aware, I represent the gateway to Newfoundland. I represent the community, the region of the Province, that is the first part of Newfoundland that tourists see when they step ashore in Port aux Basques. Port aux Basques is the gateway to Newfoundland and is recognized as such, of course, in the Terms of Union. So therefore, Mr.

Speaker, the first item that I would like to deal with _ as far as Western Newfoundland and Southwestern Newfoundland is concerned is the ferry service itself. And the memrl'er for Humber West (Mr. Baird} touched on it there 4301

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1702 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: briefly when he talked about subsidizing the ferry service across the Gulf. Now, Mr. Speaker, as hon. members are aware 1 the Government of Canada, the people of Canada, already subsidize the ferry service acros·s the Gulf to a large extent. But I think what the han. gentleman meant, and the hon. gentleman came close to supporting an idea of ours that we have been pushing for a long time, is to make the Gulf ferry an extens,ion of the Trans .....Canada Highway. I think that is what the hon. gentleman meant. Now· that is different than subsidizing the service.

We claim that if we are ever to have a successful tour:i:st industry in this Province that we have to provide free ferry service across the Gulf, that :i:t has to be considered an extens·ion of the T:t'ans.....Canada Highway. Now r realize that is a major reform but, Mr. Speaker, when you look at it it is so obvious·, it is as plain as the nose on your face that people will come down to 4302

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1703 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: North Sydney, come down to Nova Scotia, sometimes they neither have the time nor the resources to come across and visit Newfoundland, their budgets will not permit them to come across to visit Newfoundland. They budget for a couple of weeks holidays and ~y usually end up in Nova Scotia and will not cross the Gulf because of the additional cost and inconvenience. So if we are ever to make a success of our tourist industry 1 then I think we are going to have to starty lobbying seriously to make the Gulf ferry service an extension of the Trans-Canada Highway.

Some people may just say, "Well, how do you do that? That is impossible." Well, I am not going to talk about the details of that today. AN HON. MEMBER: You pave it. MR . NEARY: No~ you do not pave it. But, Mr. Speaker, we have a new ferry corning on shortly after the Caribou. They were going to call the new ferry the Gulf Span and CN Marine in their wisdom recently, and I congratulate them for doing this, named the ferry the Caribou, they changed the name from the Gulf Span to the Caribou, called after the CaFibou that was torpedoed during the Second World War with such a heavy loss of life in the Gulf.

As members know, the Caribou operated between Port aux Basques and North Sydney for years and was torpedoed I believe in 1942 or 1943 with a heavy loss of life. So they are going to call the new ferry the Caribou. Now that ferry will carry upwards of 500 vehicles. 500 vehicles will be dumped on the roads in 4303

May 16, 1984 Tape No . 1703 NM- 2 MR. NEARY : Port aux Basques all at once, and that ferry will probably operate on fast turnaround during the peak of the tourist season so you can imagine the traffic that is going to be dumped on the roads in Port aux Bas~es during the height of the tourist season. And I believe, Mr. Speaker, with the introduction of this new ferry service that it would be a good time to carry out this major refo~ of making the ferry service an extension of the Trans-canada Highway, and that tourists and vehicles be carried on first come, first served basis.

And when they enter the ya£ds, the parking lots on the North Sydney side and on the Port aux Basques side,they be given a ticket and that they board the ferry in order of the ticket number that they have; first come, first served. MR. DINN: Tourists first? MR. NEARY: First come, first served. MR. DINN: Oh, not tourists. MR. NEARY: No, not tourists, a first come, first served basis. I think if we had the actual figures now of the number of tourists coming into Newfoundland that we would discover that the 'larger percentage of the tourists ' who are visiting this Province now are former 4304

May 16, 1984 Tape 1704 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Newfoundlanders coming home to visit their relatives and friends and their families, coming home to attend anniversaries and celebrations of one kind and other. Most of the passengers carried across the Gulf, I would submit 1are former Newfoundlanders returning home.

When they come they sta y with friends or they stay with relatives or they stay in their own homes 1 and I would submit to the House that we will never reap the benefits that we should be getting from the tourist industry until we encourage the independent, the tourist with no strings attached who is just looking for something different, looking for a place to go, looking for a little tranquility, Mr. Speaker.

We will never have a successful tourist industry until we attract that kind of tourist, the first-class tourist, not saying that the former Newfoundlanders are not first-class because they are, but they do not stay in the hotels or the motels or use public facilities; they sometimes camp in the parks, but they usually get off the ferry and head for their homes. Now, Mr.

Speaker, what has happened in the tourist industry in Newfoundland in recent times with the energy crisis, with the high price of gasoline, and the high cost of travel,and the high cost of motels and hotels: Well 1 perhaps the hon. gentleman, the member for Bay of Islands (Mr.

Woodrow) who introduced this resolution could tell us that the majority of tourist coming into Newfoundland and Labrador at the present time stay on the West Coast~ They do not come to the East Coast for the reason that I just gave, it is too expensive, and apart from that they can see everything they want to see in the Western part of this Province. And there has been a concerted effort in recent years, I know down in Port aux Basques, where they have Telidon down there in the lobbies of the hotels and in the CN ticket office 4305

May 16, 1984 Tape 1704 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: waiting room, they had Telidon explaining to tourist , people corning across on the ferry why they should spend their holidays in Western Newfoundland.

I think it worked to a large degree, because most of the tourists in recent years , I would say in the past five years coming into this Province,corne down as far as Deer Lake and they turn off and go down through Gros Marne National Park and they all want to go up and look at L'Anse-au-Meadow and then they turn around and come back again 1 spend a little time in Bonne Bay, probably around the Corner Brook area and Humber Valley 1 and then down in the parks on the way back to Port aux Basques. Now, Mr. Speaker, I see nothing wrong with that.

I tell you one thing ; in my trips back and forth to Port aux Basques during the Summer holidays I do detect-here on the East Coast you would never say we had a tourist industry- but when you go down to Bonne Bay and down to Corner Brook, the Humber Valley, and down in the parks between Corner Brook and Port aux Basques 1you see licence plates from all over Canada and some from the United States. So these tourists are not now finding their way onto the Avalon Peninsula, and I believe the hon. gentleman is trying to encourage that because that is what the resolution is all about. I am all for that, Mr.

Speaker, As a member who represents a West Coast or a Southwest Coast district/I am all for that because I can tell this House that I do not believe there is a part of the Southwest Coast or the West Coast that I have never seen or have not gone to in recent times, and I can say, Mr. Speaker, that the Western part of this Province is unique, 4306

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1705 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: it is beautiful,there is no question about that. My two favourite parts of Newfoundland are Bonne Bay and the Humber Valley. Mr. Speaker: there is no doubt about it that I think tourists recognize this and when they come into the Province they now do not have to come and look at a mass of brick and concrete. In St. John's they can see that, in their own communities, in their own home towns. They want to see something different.

Unfortunatel~ the climate is not the best in this Province, we have to admit that, so therefore we have to make the best we can of a short tourist season, we have to concentrate on a few months out of the Summer 1 but apart from that I agree with somebody earlier who made the statement that we have to look at our other attractions,such as the Marble Mountain skiing resort where we have year-around attractions for tourists in this Province; skidooing could be a big thing, fishing through the ice.

How many people in New York or Chicago or Toronto or Montreal would love to spend a few days skidooing in Labrador, or skidooing in Western Newfoundland or Southwestern Newfoundland or fishing through the ice? They would love it. It has never been promoted 1 in my opinion 1 but I think it has great potential. You cannot beat the outdoors, Mr. Speaker, people love it. But, let me say this, that although I am high in my praise of the ~;Jest Coast, I am rather disappointed that the members from out in the Western part of the Province have not pushed for a convention center for Western Newfoundland. You know, !~.

Speaker, one of the greatest needs that we have in the :community of Port aux Basques- the gateway to Newfoundland, the first impression tourists get when they come into this Province-our greatest need is a motel or a good hotel. Now with all due respect to the people who operate the motel or the hotel in Port aux Basques, the Holiday Inn chain, well, !1r. Speaker, I think we 4307

M.ay 16, 198 4 Ta pe No. 170 5 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: made a mistake when I was a member of the Smallwood administration 1 I think we made a mistake. We had a new aoliday Inn on the drawing board for Port aux Basques,but at the time the gentleman who built the present hotel 1 who had a guarantee from the government, defaulted on his loan and we decided to take back the hotel and not go ahead with the construction of a new Holiday Inn similar to the one in St. John's and in Clarenville and in Corner Brook and in other places. I think that was a mistake.

We are in desperate need of a new hote .l or motel in Port aux : Basques. I am happy •to say that a young entrepreneur in Port aux Basques is presentlv actively pursuing the possibility of constructing a motel in Port aux Basques and I compliment him on : it and I hope that he gets the co-operation of the administration 'there opposite. But I would like to see, Mr. Speaker, 4308

May 16, 1984 Tape 1706 NM - 1 MR. tJEARY : a convention centre somewhere in Western Newfoundland. I do not think everything should be put in St. John's . I think that Convention Centre we are talking about should be put somewhere on the West Coast. I think we should have sufficient convention facilities in Port aux Basques for holding medium~ size conventions. Mr. Speaker, how many organizations have called me, have written me, have written the Chamber of Commerce and the tourist people in Port aux Basques asking if the facilities are there to hold a convention in Port aux Basques. DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: DR.

COLLINS: Smallwooa missed his big chance. Why? HOW ' did he? When we joined Confederation he should have established the capital in the "centre of Newfoundland. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there may be some merit in what the han. gentleman says but what I am talking about is facilities. We lack facilities in Western Newfoundland and Southwestern Newfoundland. MR. MATTHEWS: How about Rose Blanche? MR. NEARY: Rose Blanche is a unique community. I suppose more pictures have been taken of Rose Blanche 1and I have a sketch of Rose Blanche, I have a picture in my office of Rose Blanche. It is a unique community.

And the lighthouse down there, by the way, is falling down. I believe now it is gone too far to restore, unfortuna ~ ely. They should have taken it and turned it into an historic site. The same thing in Cape Ray; there is a Dorset site in Cape Ray that is being completely ignored. There is not even a sign up to indicate that there is a Dorset site there. The university went 4309

May 16, 1984 Tape 1706 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: out there several years ago, before my time, and robbed all the artifacts. I do not know what they did with them. MR. CARTER: Would you repeat that outside? MR. NEARY: Yes, I would. We have a musuem now in Port aux Basques and the astrolabe that was discovered in Isle aux Morts is put in the museum in the Summertime. But where are the artifacts that were taken away by the university? MR. CARTER: MR. SPEAKER' · (Aylward): for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the han. member -· Mr.

Speaker, we are so used to hearing slander and libel from the han. gentleman that it rolls off our backs like water off a duck's back. He just has accused the university of robbing some artifacts. I am quoting his actual words. He should either be made to apologize for that or asked to repeat that accusation outside the House. MR. BAIRD: Shame! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order 1 it is obviously a difference of opinion between two han. members. MR. NEARY: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, there is something else that I want to mention before my time runs out and that is the Trans-Canada Highway between Corner Brook and Port aux Basques. I would say that is the busiest part of the Trans­ Canada Highway in this Province, apart from nearer St. John's, because of the tractor-trailers that come off the ferry, and the Trans-Canada Highway was not built for heavy equipment. It was built for the travelling public. It was built for the motoring public. Mr. Speaker, I believe that we are going to have to face up to the fact that the Trans-canada Highway 4310

May 16, 1984 Tape 1706 NM - 3 MR . NEARY : cannot handle the traffic. It is like a cowpath compared to the roads in Nova Scotia and in other parts of Canad~ and we have to look at twining the Trans -Canada Highway . There is no question about that . MR. STAGG : There has been some good Trans- Canada Highway built since 1972 . MR. NEARY : There has been some good Trans- Canada built since 1949. MR. DDlN : MR . NEARY: need it is a cowpath . It was only a cowpath. It is now, compared to what \ve And it has to be twined and it is something we should look at as soon as possible. 4311

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1707 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: I do not know if the engineering feasibility study has ever been done but if not it should be done. And, Mr. Speaker, also - I only have another few seconds left - with regard to some of the provincial parks on the West Coast, some of the problems with them, as hon. members know, a:re, for instance, the road near the Big Falls camping ground is not paved; some are filled beyond capacity and need to be enlarged. The Cheeseman Park in Port aux Basques, the Minister of Tourism (Mr.

Windsorl said~ 'Yes, we are going to enlarge that park because it cannot handle the tourists that come into this Province', but what happened? The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawel. had the enlargement done up in St. George's in his own district in a park that is never used by people. So they have to stop playing politics with this. Greater promotion of the area is needed. All these concerns were brought out at a tourism seminar in April in Corner Brook,. an economic conference on the future of the West Coast area. Hon. gentlemn will recall that_these recommendations were made.

And I support these recommendations because I have been in that Cheeseman Park in the Summertime. I mean,. the administration there opposite can bury their heads· in the sand, they can play all the politics they like, they can move it up to s·t. George Is· and give it to the member for St. George Is but, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that park cannot handle the traffi-c that i:s going through it in the Summertime.

And they are not going to force them to go to another park, they want to be near th.e ferry wh.en th.ey can get up in the morning and cook breakfast or have a nig.ht' s sleep and go aboard the ferry and go on acros·s the Gulf. They are not going to sleep in St. George' ·s. MR. DAWE: It is a lovely spot. MR. NEARY: It is a lovely spot. I was in it, as a matter of face, a few days ago. But we are going to support the resolution, Mr. Speaker. Unfortunately 1 I do 4312

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1707 SD - 2 MR. NEA.RY: not have more time to talk about the potential of the Western part of this Province but it does have a great tourist potential but I am afraid we are not . taking advantage of it as we should. MR. SPEAKER·(Aylward): The hon. member for St. John's Centre. DR. MCNICHOLAS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to support the resolution introduced by my colleague,the member for the Bay of Islands (~. Woodrow).

I remember many years ago being invited to spend a week in Bonne Bay .. with an old friend of mine, George Tapper, who is no longer with us 7 and I must say that it was a memorable week for a number of reasons. I certainly think it was one of the most beautiful areas I have ever seen,and I managed to see quite a number of places around and Woody Point and visiting Gras Marne which at that time was just in its infancy 1 and I am certainly looking forward to seeing it again.

I remember the third day we were there my host had a small launch with a small cabin and he insisted that he take my young son,who was about seven or eight at the time 1 and myself across whatever the bay, across to the other side 1 and we were just halfway across - fortunately we w~re looked over the stern, the two of us - and the boat exploded. What happened was · that somebody in fact did steal some of the gas from the engine the night before and, of course, it spilled over and when the engine heated up we had an explosion.

I think if anybody was in the cabin at that time he probably would not be around today, but we managed to get the fire out- the boat was a wreck- and we were taken off by some people who came to our rescue. Anyway, it is a trip that 4313

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1708 ah-1 DR McNICHOLAS: I will not forget for some time. I think, Mr.Speaker, a lot of us do not realize the importance of tourism to us here in Newfoundland. I think particularly we do not realize the potential that is here. And if you look at many other countries that have nothing like the natural amenities and potential facilities that we have,yet~we are not making the best of them. I was interested in the comments of the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) about the ferry service from Sydney to Port aux Basques,and I liked the comment of the hon. member for St.

John's North (Mr.Carter) when he spoke last Wednesday, that he felt that that service should be subsidized. And as the Leader of the Opposition said it should be an extension of the Trans-Canada. I certainly think the tourists should be encouraged to come here and they should not have to pay a penalty to be able to come from the Mainland to here. I think the amount of money thEy spend, the amount of interest, etc., that they would show would be more than compensated by what we would lose on subsidizing or in fact having a free ferry service.

I was interested in last weekends paper wherethe Canadian Chamber of Commerce, their convention organization was here and they were very impressed with it and they gave a whole list of national companies and clubs, potential conventions that are very, very interested in coming here. I think this is a thing that with the proper encouragement will develop into a very lucrative field which we need so badly here. I think there are many improvements needed in the tourist busine~s. I do not 4314

May 16, 198 4 Tape No. 170 8 ah-2 DR .MCNI CH OLA S: like saying i~ but I feel I must; I have noticed for many years that the catering establishments in Newfoundland compare very unfavourab1y with catering establishments in tourist areas and in cities on the Mainland and certainly in Europe.

There seems to be some type of rese .ntment or indifference or a terrible casual atmosphere in hotels and restaurants from the top down, the waiters, the waitresses, the staff; they seem to think that they do not have to go out of their way to look after their customers, Maybe on the Mainland they have an ulterior motive 1 they are looking for a big tip 1 but whatever it ir. I certainly do not think that we compare 1 generally speaking, I do not think that we compare favourably with the many other places in the world that depend on tourists apd 4315

May 16, 1984, Tape 1709, Page 1 -- apb DR. MC NICHOLAS: catering. A thing that must apall tourists when they come here is the way we look after our cities and towns and the streets. They are generally neglected, in many cases neglected; there are papers flying around the place, they are not kept clean. If you compare cities or towns in Switzerland and some places in England - I am not referring to the slums, the slums are always dirty, but in the main streets and that, car wrecks in side streets, car wrecks out in this beautiful country of ours.

I know this has been flogged to death, it has been talked about before, but actually we are not doing very much about it. Another thing that we are in very bad need of here, and I know that we need federal money and we need provincial money, and we need more money, is our road system. It is not one that attracts a tourist. Our roads are bad and I think we all know that. Another thing that I think we are shortsighted about is in looking after the very affluent group that want to come here, that is our hunters and fishermen.

I do not think that we should be charging them exorbitant rentals, in fact, we should go out of our way to encourage them to come here. I am well aware that the recent restrictions on salmon has nothing to do with the provincial government, that it is a federal regulation, but I just cannot see salmon fishermen coming all the way here to Newfoundland to fish with the very restricted conditions that have been imposed on us in the last few weeks. Mr. Speaker, I think this tourist business has tremendous potential. I remember, 4316

May 16, 1984, Tape 1709, Page 2 - - apb DR. !-!CNTCHOLAS: going back many year to my student days in Ireland, in Dublin, our tourist facility, if you like, at that time was bad. The potential ~~s there but it tvas not exploited. There might have been good reasons for that, that was the time we were going through an economic war with Britain, and it was a matter of survival rather than catering to tourists .

I remember very well in the middle of that our li feblood for Ireland, our cattle industry was completely banned from Britain and, in fact, friends of mine and my own relatives had to do away with their cattle and got a subsidy of ten shillin gs, \'lhich was $2 .50, so that we would kill off these cattle because the British Government would not allow them to go into Britain. And, you know, Mr. Speaker, it might be 4317

May 16, 1984 Tape 1710 PK - 1 DR. MCNICHOLAS: stretching the imagination, but there is a bit of a parallel here now between Newfoundland and Ottawa as we in Ireland had to fight and get our rights and we did get them, and I think that we have to do the same here . . we have the Trudeau Government who do nothing for our tourist industry, do nothing for anything, unlike Joe Clark 1 when he was there in his short six months 1went out of his way to look after us. I hear the Opposition all talking about Mr.

Chretien,what he is going to do, but I did read in the weekend paper that he said the rest of Canada did not want to be blackmailed by Newfoundland. So maybe he is showing up in his true colours after all. MR. WARREN: He is a good man, boy! A good man! DR. MCNICHOLAS: Your other friend 1 Mr. Turner, I think since he got into trouble in Manitoba is sitting on the fence and is not prepared to tell us anything. Now Mr. Mulroney, will have to have to get off the pot, too, and tell us just exactly what he is going to do. I feel sure he will in the next few weeks. It is time that we heard. DR.

COLLINS: You are being frank. DR. MCNICHOLAS: I do not mind being quite frank and honest about it. I have no axe to grind with anybody. We would like to hear just what he has to offer. I know here I amj just fed up with this endless borrowing and scraping that we have to do here 1 not alone for tourism, which we are discussing now, but for every other thing. The history of Newfoundland,as I have read it 1 is for 400 years there have been just a few rich people here and the vast majority of people have been poor. Quite frankly I cannot see 4318

May 16, 1984 Tape 1710 PK - 2 DR . MCNICHOLAS: any change in that unless we get a big influx of money from the oil revenue and other things that will come with that. After all,we have been in Confederation now - h::lw long? - thirty-five years; we still have about half or a little bit more than half of the income of the rest of Canada. I do not think there is any hope for our young people except to emigrate in many cases. And our old people 1well 1I would just like them to have a better futur e for the rest of their days . The big problem, Mr.

Speaker , in all of these things that I can see is where is the money going to come from? I was reading in the weekendabout loads of jobs in our forests in an

article by this man Edgar Baird of Gander who says - MR. NE~Y: A good man, by the way. DR. MCNICHOLAS: - that we p~ve one person here for every 4,000 acres and in Scotland,- which he compares with here, there are s:ixteen. But the important thing about all of thi ·s articl .e, he says, · is long-t .erm capit .al investment, and I agree with him, but where is that money going to come from? 4319

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1711 MJ - 1 DR. MCNICHOLAS: He says it will take a life- time to complete. I agree, it is necessary. He says there will be 20,000 people employed. Fine, but where are we going to.get that money? Where are we going to get the money in the fishery? I am not going to dwell on the fishery because we are not discussing that,but I am quite sure there will be millions and millions more money wanted before that is a really viable entity instead of struggling as it is today. Look at smaller things. St.

Lawrence Mine that we want to open up at the present time, there is a company there that will put in their own monev. the provincial government will put in their own money but what are the federal government doing? Sitting on the pot. Mr. Speaker, I want to get back to the tourist business, this tremendous potential we are missing. The hon. the Leader of the Opoosition (Mr. Neary) talked about a convention center in Port aux Basques and in other places. I agree with him. I think that would be great but the biggest mass of our population lives right here in St.

John's and we do not have a convention center here yet. Anybody who knows anything about convention centers know that they lose money, they lose money directly. So the reason for them is to get the mass of people in to spend money in the hotels and in the stores and in all the s~- catering establishments that go with conventions. If we have a large convention center right here in St. John's, and I think that is the first place we need it, that will attract conventions of 2,000 to 3,000 people; we can have new hotels here, we can have a terrific tourist industry. Now the city of St.

John's have given a site to us worth $2 million or $3 million for free, for nothing. The provincial government set aside $1 million in their budget,just some weeks ago,for that same convention center. 4320

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1711 MJ - 2 DR . MCNICHO~~: Again, the federal government is sitting on the pot and they have not come up with one cent for that convention center. Mr. Speaker, that convention center is very important, it is one that I am particularly inter ested in because the obvious place for it is right in the heart of St . John 's Centre which I have the honour to represent . In conclusion, ~I .

Speaker, all I wan t to sa y is th at I wa nt to be a member of this team that will have the money so that we will have a good tourist indu stry, so that our forestry, our fishery, our mining, all of these will prosper. I do not want to be a member of a team that just gets handouts from Ottawa . I do not believe that the next elected Prime Minister of Canada, Brian Mulroney, wants us to be a recipien~ of charity . I think he is going to forge a deal on the line of Joe Clark and right what is now a terrible wrong . Mr. Speaker, the ho n. the member for the Bay of Islands (Mr .

Woodrow) is to be commended on bring ing in such a goo d resolution . I am sure it 4321

May 16, 1984, Tape 1712, Page 1 -- apb DR. MCNICHOLAS: is one that we can all support and enthusiastically support. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward) : The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: ~tr. Speaker, in addressing this motion let me say, first of all,that the member for Bay of Islands(Mr. Woodrow) is to be congratulated. I think it is correct to say that the motion has appeared on the Order Paper but, as the member for Humber West(Mr.Baird) said, it always appeared somewhere down the line. He has finally got it up to the top.

It is a resolution that is becoming of the hon. gentleman. It is a resolution of a true parliamentarian, a person who in his resolution is completely, as far as I can see, unbiased, who makes a statement about certain areas in his own district and then extrapolates that to the rest of the Province, takes it and says that we should make all kinds of efforts in the rest of the Province. I have only one little bit of disagreement with him and that is that I am not sure that his emphasis on what the provincial government should do is strong enough, he just says, "encouraged".

I think it should be much stronger than that, that the provincial government should be pushed in some way to do more than they are doing. But I have to say to him that overall the resolution is that of a true parliamentarian, or a person who believes what he says and who has put it on the Order Paper as a private member's resolution should be. It is a shame that the member is still a backbencher in this House, He is, as I said, a true parliamentarian. There are rumours around 4322

Hay 16, 1984, Tape 1712, Page 2 -- apb MR. TULK: that the Cabinet is going to be shuffled within the next little while, and my advice to the Premier would be that there is a lot of deadwood over there now that he can flick out and take in a member like the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) . MR. WARREN: And the member for St. John's Centre(Dr. McNicholas). MR. TULK: And possibly the member for St. John's Centre, although the last remarks were from the member for St. John's Centre and I have to say that they were not in the same true parliamentar y style as the member for Bay of Islands usually gives us.

As I said, the member for Bay of Islands, Mr. Speaker, is to be congratulated and we on this side will certainly have no difficulty at all in supporting such a resolution.

And I would expect, since this government is always looking for unanimous consent of the House, that once the unanimous consent of the House is given, and I know that this is the hope of the member for Bay of Islands, that once unanimous consent is given by the House then we Ylill see the government take the appropriate action to see that his resolution cares .. to some sort of fruition and that there will be, and this is the key phrase, that there will be further development, further efforts by the government, more than they are now doing, to see that the tourist industry in this Province is enhanced and is pushed forward, that every effort by the government tm'lard the tourist industry in the Province is increased tremendously.

MR. PATTERSON: (Inaudible) • MR. TULK: No, no, you do not have to play partisan politics. You see, that is where the member for Placentia(Mr. Patterson} differs from the member for Bay of Islands, all partisan politics. 4323

May 16 , 1 98 4 , Tape 1712 , Page 3 -- apb MR . PATTERSON: invited me .over the re . MR . WARREN: You h_ave never No, t hank God ! MR. TULK: You hear the member for Bay of Islands(Mr. Woodrow) stand in this House and get on with partisan politics, but the member for Placentia (¥~. Patterson) has 4324

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1713 SD - 1 MR. TULK: that buttoned down-Tory mind. He is a nice fellow, but he cannot get out fro!ll under the partisan polit ,ics and say, yes, you can have unanimous consent on a resolution of this nature without - you have to cross the House for some reason or other, you have to go over and sit by them to agree with something that they say. HR. PATTERSON: I will never forgive the Liberals for bringing the shrews to Newfoundland. MR. WARREN: And I can never forgive the Tories for socking it to Newfoundlanders. MR. TULK: The member for St. John's Centre (_Dr.

McNicholas) who just sat down, I detect a great deal of sadness in the member for St. John's Centre. The last two or three times that he spoke in this House all we heard from him was a litany of doom and gloom. He does not seem to be either bit cheerful about what is happening in the Province, what is happening with his government. MR. BARRY: He is devoid of hope. MR. TULK: That is right. He is devoid of hope. The member for St. John's Centre is devoid of hope.

I would say to him that if we can have this kind of agreement, and if the government will act on the unanimous decision of this Housefthen this is one area where we can expect the government to take the resolution put forward by the member of the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) and unanimously approved by the House, and we will see some action in the tourist industry. The member for Humber West (Mr. Bairdl made a very good speech. He does not speak too often in the House but today he made a very good speech when he talked about the restrictions that are placed on our tourist industry by that Gulf ferry.

I am sure that the member for 4325

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1713 SD - 2 MR. TULK: the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) would agree, because I believe that he is, at least, a small ~1' Liberal. The member for the Bay of Islands is a small '1' Liberal and it just remains to qet him on this side of the House where he can be a big 'L' _ Liberal. But I aw sure that he would agree with the hon. member for Humber West (Mr. Baird), that that is one of the restrictions, it is the biggest restriction, I think, the biggest restriction to the development of tourism in Newfoundland. MR. OSMOND: I said that last week. MR. TULK: You did? I was absent last week.

If that is what the member said I agree with him totally. It is my belief and it is the belief of everybody on this side. I would ~BT,ost say it is the official position of t<he Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador, that the Gulf ferry should be an extension of the Trans-Canada Highway. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear. MR. TULK: I do not believe there should be any charge for Newfoundlanders on that thing. I do not believe there should. It may be a cost to the federal government but if it is a cost to the federal government,then it is a cost to make Newfoundlanders equal to the rest of Canadians.

In the same way I do not believe the Prince Edward Islanders should pay to get off that island either and so on. Wherever there are ferries I think they should be extensions of highways. The member for Humber West, I believe, suggested thirty cents a mile 1 the same as you would for roads. Well 1 I do not care to buy that but certainly it is a proposal that is far better than wha~ we are now having to put up with . if you want to cross the Gulf,either going or coming. 4326

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1713 SD - 3 MR. TULK: I have taken a trailer and just gone to Port aux Basques and across the Gulf and went through the Atlantic Provinces,and if you talk to people who 4327

May 16,1984 Tape No.l714 ah-1 MR.TULK: want to come to Newfoundland from the Mainland of Canada, want to come to Newfoundland and Labrador, one of the things that they will tell you is that in order to come to Newfoundland and Labrador it will cost you another weeks holidays. In other words for what you will spend on getting across the gulf you can come as far as North Sydney or go down to the States somewhere and spend another week. You can pay for the grocery bill, pay for the cost of your trailer and so on and spend another week on holidays with your family.

So you would have to be somebody who has a tremendous desire to come to Newfoundland or some kind of a fool to cross the gulf. I have not done it in the last couple of years,but it would probably cost $200 to $250 across and go back. MR.WOODROW: It is thirty dollars for a car,thirty dollars for a trailer and ten dollars per person,so for a trailer and ten it comes to approximately $200 for you and your wife return. MR.TULK: MR.WOODROW: MR.TULK: 'J:'o go across one >'lay? One way . costs ~100. I recognized that three or four years ago,- Thelast time I did it was about three years ago and I ~zed that at that time.

I believe it cost me $200 to get my family across the gulf and back. MR. WOODROW: Was that only one way? MR.TULK: Yes .It ·-cost probably more than that, I am not sure. But there·is a point to be made. If vou are on three weeks holidays and you have money for three weeks holidays on the Ic!ainland, if you are going to come to Newfoundland you are going 4328

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1714 ah-2 MR.TULK: to need money for four because what it will cost you to cross the gulf would pay for an extra weeks groceries and trailer rent in a park. So I believe that the gulf ferry should be an extension of the Trans-Canada Highway,as do the rest of the people on this side. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not know how serious this government is about tourist development. I find that it is put in a department, it is a hodgepodge department, the Department of Development, Department of Housing, I do not know.

The Executive Assistant to the Premier probably knows how many departments are down there. Tourism is in it. What else is in it? Tourism, Housing, Development. What else? There must be something. AN HON. MEMBER: That is it. MR.TULK: That is it. A hodgepodges thrown together. And I believe that Tourism is important to this Province,and has -a lot of potential for employment.

I think a fellow like the member for Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr.Rideout) or the member for Bay of Islands (Mr.Woodrow) should be given a Cabinet position or certain special responsibilities 1 to develop tourism and to pay special attention to what has to be done to see that the tourist industry in Newfoundland is developed to its fullest potential. And there is absolutely no point in anybody trying to say we ha~e developed the tourist industry in Newfoundland to its fullest potential. The member for Humber West (Mr. Baird) again mentioned that there is 27 per cent unemployment on the West Coast.

I suggest to him that in my own district,I suppose, it is starting to pick up now because the fishing industry 4329

May 16,1984 Tape No. 1714 ah-3 MR.TULK: is starting to open up. But tourism in Newfoundland, I believe, can b~ing some Winter employment as well as Summer employment,although the greatest majority will obviously be summer employment. But the point has been well made by a number of speakers that we do have the highest unemployment rate in Canada; and in particular among our youthAnd if there is an area where we can perhaps use the creativity of young minds to develop new methods in creating employment,then I would suggest that it is in the tourist industry. Because the tourist industry is something that - could be a stimulus to young people,to create new ways of employment, to create 4330

May 16, 1984 Tape 1715 NM - 1 MR. TULK: new jobs and so on. So it is verv important and should receive a great deal of attention from the present government. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) pointed out that another problem that we face in this Province is that once you get off that ferry in Port aux Basques you have to come over some of the worst roads that you can find anywhere in Canada. They are probably the worst roads. Certainly as a main highway, as the Trans-Canada Highway, as the cP-ntre highway throughout a province it .. is, I believe, the worst highway in Canada.

So the Gulf ferry .keeps the tourists away, but once he decides to spend another $250, once he decides that he is . . . . -- - going to take another week of his holidays that he could spend somewhere else, he gets off in Port aux Basques - and there is another point to be made, that I do not believe that the Summer accommodations are in Port aux Basques that are needed. Chesseman Park is a very beautiful park but I do not believe it provides the - MR. NEARY: It is not nearly big enough, for one thing. MR.

TULK: It is not near big enough and besides that, as a place where people enter the Province, late at night sometimes, I do not believe that it provides the type of service that you need. If you have a family in a trailer - MR. NEARY: Small children. MR. TULK: small children in a trailer or tents or whatever, and you have to get out in middle of the night and usually it is raining over there, it does that - MR. NEARY: The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) tried to force them up to St. George's, because the extension that we should have gotten went out to his district. 4331

May 16, 1984 Tape 1715 NM- 2 MR. TULK: Well,I know. I went through that. I had to leave Port aux Basques - what time is it the boat gets in Port aux Basques, is it eleven o'clock? MR. NEARY: the Cheeseman Park. MR. TULK: (Inaudible) and the survey showed That is right. What time does the boat get in Port aux Basques? MR. NEARY: Summertime. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: She does a turnaround in the About eleven o'clock some nights. Before tha~, ei 3 ~t o'clock. Eight o'clock. How far is it down to that - is it Crabbes River Park? MR. NEARY: Yes. That is quite a hike. MR.

TULK: I had to drive that with a travel trailer and with three kids in .a car on a rainy night when I should have been able to get off the boat and if I wanted - MR. NEARY: It is eighty or ninety miles. MR. TULK: - it is ninety miles. · If I wanted to get in the Cheeseman Park there should have been room some­ where in Port aux Basques to stop that trailer and put my kids up for the night. So it becomes something that nobody after the first time wants to go through. So if you come here as a tourist one time you are not coming back the second time.

But in any case,the Trans-Canada Highway, getting back to that, it is a very important issue. When the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) was speaking of parks he reminded me of a park that is not in my district really, it is in the member for Bonavista North's district (Mr. Cross), the park is the cut off point between my district and his 1and I am talking about Windmill Bight, and Windmill Bight Beach. MR. CROSS: I know where it is. 4332

May 16, 1984 Tape 1715 NM - 3 MR. TULK: I am surprised that the member does know where it is . According to what we heard down in Wesleyville Saturday night they do not know where the member is. MR. NEARY : The silent member they call him. MR . TULK: Ther e you go . MR . NEARY: The silent member. MR. TULK: That was Liberals of course, we will forget that . There were 350 Liberals in the room - was it? But in any case, if we could - MR. CROSS: MR. NEARY: th e regu).ations. MR . TOLK: fire regulations. You broke the fire regulations . We did 1 by the way.

We did break Th ere was standing room only . we have a problem those days with We have problems with fire regulations every time we hold a meeting. The first thing we have to do is send somebody out to delay the fire marshall . We do have problems,but it is a great problem to have. 4333

Ma,y 16 , 1984 Tape r-:o . 1716 MJ - 1 MR . TULK : The park called Windmill Beach Pa r k, it has probably one of the better beaches in the Provin c e . t-I.R. CROSS : that one. (Inaudib l

e) beach is better than 11R.. TULK: 't'Tell, let us just talk about that one in particular. There are beaches along The Straight Shore everyWhere. If you ~.,ant to go down to Musgrave Harbour you will find a better one still than you will find anywhere. The provincial park itself needs to be expanded, needs to have tre.Ttlendous expansion carried on, and if you go down to that beach ~~ere is hardly anything, no kind of organized activity 'iThich should be there as an attraction for people to come to the park. But the point is that if you attracted more peop.le to the park I do not know where you would put them.

Now people have to go out and park in · gravel pits and so on. There have been applications put in and there has been representation, because I ·have made it myself to the ¥.inister of Development (Mr. Windsor), as probably th~ member for Bonavista North (¥1. cross) has - I certainly made it myself because it is near Lumsden and so on, and my people use it - to do something 4334

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1716 MJ - 2 MR. TULK: with that park to increase the size of it. I have got a feeling that the kind of thing that was just related by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) in regards to the district of St. George's and his own district as it affects Cheeseman Park is going on in that park. MR. NEARY: It is absolutely ridiculous what they are doing. MR. TULK: I have got a feeling that it is too close to my district, it is too close to a Liberal district. Andthe member for Bonavista North(Mr. Cross) can be shoved off in the corner anywav,in order that the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) and the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) and the Cabinet ministers can get sexactly what they want to get done. MR. WARREN: What about the Norma and Gladys? MR. TULK: I think the member for Bonavista North was standing up saying that the Norma and Gladys should keep going up and down the Coast on tours rather than doing what you said,and that is making it a floating museum. I happen to agree with you. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! MR. CROSS: MR. TULK: ~hat is normal over there. Sure it is normal. It is normal for great minds to think alike and the member for Bonavista North would not understand that. AN HON.

MEMBER: MR. TULK: MR. WARREN: You have four minutes. Four minutes? How time flies. ~he member for Terra Nova (Mr. Greening) agrees with us. MR. TULK: The member for Terra Nova agrees with us on the Norma and Glady s? MR. GREENING: It is going into Terra Nova National Par k. 4335

May 16, 1984 Tape No. 1716 MJ - 3 MR. TULK: That is a good spot for it. I would not argue with that at all. I think it should be in Clarenville, because that ±s \<There the Norma and Gladys was built. B~t if you are going to pass that boat off to a nrivate entrepreneu:r; which I understand is what the bid is all about, if you are going to pass that boat off you can make up your mind now, you can write it down, as my grandmother used to say, in your davbook 1 that you have seen the last of her, sh~ is gone. AN HON. MEMBF!:'. : I ran rrore salt water over my eveb=<~s tl-J.an vou ever sa~v. MR.

NEARY: He rang more out of his socks, my son, than you ever sailed one. MP... TULK: rubbers than you ever saw. MR. WARREN: MR. TULK: There \'laS lT\ore ran out of my long Your leaky ones. Leaky ones,too. In any case I believe that 1..re should keep the Norma and Gladys in public ownership, that we should take it to Clarenville where it belongs and do the kind of thing that the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. warren) was talking about.

Look 1 we have spent $1.8 million on the thing, They talk about their assets, they talk about o~rmership and everything else,and all at once they are probably croing to say - ! hope the Hinister of Tourism has more sense - they are probably going to say, 'Alright 1give it to somebody private for $80,000.' r-rac; it S80,000? MR. WARREN: The highest bid was ~80,000. MR. TULK: That boat could be restored and she could be put in Clarenville~ I believe she should be put in Clarenville. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. TULK: She should never go to Clarenville. No, Clarenville. 4336

May 16, 1984 Tape 1717 PK - 1 MR. TULK: She was built in Clarenville, take her back to Clarenville. She should go to Clarenville and become - MR. STAGG: They all said the Norma and Gladys was a waste ··of money. Now they want us to spend more on her. MR. WARREN: Sit down, boy! MR.TULK: He is back! He is back! He is back, Mr. Speaker, trying to toddle into the Cabinet. He spends a couple of days a week seeing what little news he can make to get into the Cabinet. But I would bet that a member like the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) or the member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout) - MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. TULK: - is going to make it before him. MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: White Bay. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. RIDEOUT: The hon. member's time has expired. We support the resolution. The hon. member for Baie Verte- Hear, hear! Well, Mr. Speaker, how the clock turns. I remember only a few short years ago being on the other side of the House and joining with my colleagues of the day ridiculing the government over the Norma and Glad ys, and they were saying, 'You should sell it.

You should get rid of it, it is a waste of money.' The Norman and Gladys and Torn we used to call it in those days when, I was over there. The Norma and Glad ys and Torn we used to call it. We used to poke all kinds of fun at the then Minister of Tourism - MR. TULK: Who were they? MR. RIDEOUT: We used to, myself included and my colleagues over there - about the great waste of money on 4337

May 16, 1984 Tape 1717 PK - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: the Norma and Gladys. It should be sold, it should be gotten rid of, and now you will hear the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, coming full circle, 365°, and saying, Tio not get rid of the Norma and Gladys~ whatever you do, do not get rid of the Norma and Gladys, she is so important to us. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): on a point of order. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition Mr.

Speaker, I do not think it is in keeping with the rules of this House to make false charges and accusations against members of the Opposition. The fact of the matter is when they sent the Norma and Gladys around the world we said it was a waste of money, that the Norma and Gladys should have been kept home, it should have been used for a floating museum, taken in on shore and mounted and looked after and kept in this Province.

We always advocated that, but the administration there opposite elected to do all kinds of silly, foolish things involving extravagance and waste of taxpayer money and that is what we objected to. So if the hon. gentleman is going to make charges and accusations, Mr. Speaker, let him back them up with facts. MR. SPEAKER: It is not really a valid point of order. It is obviously a difference of opinion between two hon. members. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte- White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: N:lw, Mr. Speaker, that is truer than the Iaader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) yesterday talking ab::>ut the lazy Premier making his Canadian tour around the hockey games 4338

May 16, 1984 Tape 1717 PK - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: in Edmonton,when he is as far away from Edmonton and will be for the rest of this week as the hon. gentleman is. So that is what you call fact. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to have a few words to say on this resolution. And I must say in the beginning, Mr. Speaker, that this was a real good debate this afternoon. I did not hear any partisan comments from either side of the House, not even from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), which is unbelievable, but not even from that hon. gentleman.

It was pretty reasonable, logical, thought-out debate, non-partisan, no partisan jibes exchanged at all until the hon. gentleman for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) got to his feet and then the debate began to fall to the floor. Then it began to get nasty, then it began to get partisan, and that is too bad, Mr. SneakRr. MR. TULK: · MR. RIDEOUT: And now you are up. Mr. Speaker, let the record note tha~Ifiever interrupted the hon. gentleman once. That says something for my courtesy and the lack of his. But let me say, Mr. Speaker, that I believe that this resolution is a very refreshing resolution to see on the Order Paper.

I am glad that after three or four attempts my colleague for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) persisted, he did not give up, l he persisted and we finally have a resolution on the Order Paper that addresses something that I believe is very, very important to the development of this Province, and that is the development of tourism. It is all very good - MR. NEARY: Thanks to you he had it on there. MR. RIDEOUT: Well,I am also a very humble person, Mr. Speaker. But , Mr. Speaker, I wanted to say that it is all very good and all very 4339

May 16, 1984, Tape 1718, Page 1 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: important, and rightly so, for us to be debating day after day in this House the big issues of the day; the offshore issue, the hydro issue and the unemployment issue. All those kinds of issues are important enough to be debated, but sometimes we seem to, perhaps, lose sight of the forest because of the trees and there are other important things that we should be talking about, and tourism potential in this Province in terms of the resolution that the hon.gentleman put down, is something tnat is very, very important.

Now, I have to take exception to some of the comments made by the hon. gentleman for Fogo(Mr. Tulk). I do not believe that the fact that tourism is a division in the Department of Development detracts from the development of tourism potential in this Province. As a matter of fact, one of the other things I would like to say is that when my friend from Stephenville(Mr. Stagg) was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Development(Hr.

Windsor), one of the things he took under his wing and concentrated his attention on was tourism and he did a fantastic job in the year or year and-a-half that he spent toiling in that department. I know, because I went to numerous meetings with the Tourism Association of Newfoundland and Labrador, and with the Hotel/Motel Operators, and with the Lounge Association. He had an excellent rapport with those people and he made great strides, Mr. Speaker, in trying to encourage those people, listening to those people, taking their advice, and developing it into Cabinet papers.

A lot of government policy was finally decided by the initiative that that hon. gentleman took not on his own but in terms of liaison with those people out there in the field, with the Hotel/Motel Operators, the Lounge Association and the Park Operators and this sort of thing, and a lot of good work was done. 4340

May 16, 1984, Tape 1718, Page 2 --apb MR. RIDEOUT: And I must be honest and frank and say that I was disappointed when he left that position because he was doing excellent work there. AN HON. MEMBER: Who is that? MR. RIDEOUT: Stephenville(Mr. Stagg). MR. RIDEOUT: MR. STAGG: would you repeat it? MR. RIDEOUT: The gentleman from • Mr. Speaker, the last - I did net hear all that, I will write you a letter and tell you how much I praised you. The last "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED" in this resolution, Mr. Speaker, is what I would like to concentrate on, because I think speakers from both sides of the House today, and I am sure last wekk, although I was not here to hear the debate, con­ centrated on the tourism potential, the tourism development aspect of the West coast. I would like to perhaps extend that a little further and talk about the tourism potential and tourism development activity in my part of the West coast, which happens to be the Baie Verte Peninsula.

Now, the Baie Verte Peninsula has not exactly laid on its laurels and waited for something to happen in tourism. There is a lot of potential on that Beninsula, there are a lot of good operators on that Peninsula, and they have gotten themselves together in the last couple of years,and again with a lot of encouragement from the member for Stephenville(Mr.Stagg) when he was in that position, and they have tried to develop a tourism developmental package for the whole of the Baie Verte Peninsula. And one of the things they have concentrated on is the Dorset Eskimo site at Fleur de Lys.

I know the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) made some minor reference to Dorset sites today, but I want to speak about it a little bit more, 4341

May 16, 1984, Tape 1718, Page 3 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: particularly as it relates to the Baie Verte Peninsula. We have encouraged them in that regard, 4342

May 16, 1984, Tape 1719, Page 1 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: so much so that we have encouraged the operators in that area to try to develop a tour package based around the Dorset areas on the Baie Verte Peninsula. We have renamed the Baie Verte Highway, for example, Highway 410,from the Trans­ Canada Highway down to Baie Verte and on to Fleur de Lys and LaScie, the Dorset Trail which, I think, was natural for us to do. We had competitions in the schools and various names were presented,and the Development Associations and ourselves finally decided on the Dorset Trail.

We now have big signs at the intersection of the Trans-Canada Highway and at various points down the Baie Verte Highway, naming and pointing out that this is the Dorset Trail. It goes on to Fleur de Lys where there is located one of the, as I understand from talking to archaeologists, finest Dorset Eskimo sites in all of Newfoundland and Labrador. That site,I have been told, dates anywhere from 100 A.D. to 1000 A.D., one of the oldest Dorset Eskimo sites, certainly on the Island. There may be something older in Labrador yet to be discovered, but there has not been anything like it discovered on the Island before.

Now, what does that tie into in the overall tourism potential of Dorset? What it ties into, ~x. Speaker, in terms of the Baie Verte Peninsula, is that the Dorset Eskimos were not just Eskimos, they were miners. They were the first miners . known, as far as I can find out. Historically,they were the first miners known to this part of North America.

They used to go around to the various sites in Labrador and on the Northeast coast, however they used to get there .­ in their kaiaks, or the±r skin canoes, or whatever -and they would mine out the sides of the soapstone quarries to get materials for their pots and pans, and their 4343

May 16, 1984, Tape 1719, Page 2 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: cooking utensils, and soapstone for their spears and whatever else they needed. They used to quarry, in other words. _Back in 100 A.D., or 1000 A.D., or 1500 A.D. they used to do thdt kind of mining activity. Now, of course, in the overall larger picture that takes us into another predominantly tourist potential, tourist development potential on the Baie Verte Peninsula, is the whole history