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June 23, 1998

36th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L031a - Tue 23 Jun 1998 / Mar 23 Jun 1998 1

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

FÊTE DE LA SAINT-JEAN-BAPTISTE

ALGOMA ORE DIVISION, WAWA

YOUTH ASSISTING YOUTH

GOLDCORP STRIKE

PROPERTY TAXATION

INTERNATIONAL PLOWING MATCH

CABINET MEMBERS

CHILDREN'S AID SOCIETIES

SAUGEEN DISTRICT SECONDARY SCHOOL SENIOR BAND

ORAL QUESTIONS

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

RESPITE CARE

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

ONTARIO HYDRO

HOSPITAL SERVICES

CHILDREN'S AID SOCIETIES

ARTS AND CULTURE FUNDING

EDUCATION FUNDING

NATIVE HOUSING

CHILDREN'S NUTRITION

GO TRANSIT

PEEL DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD

PETITIONS

ELECTORAL REFORM

ABORTION

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

COMPENSATION FOR HEPATITIS C PATIENTS

ADOPTION

HEALTH CARE

PROTECTION FOR HEALTH CARE WORKERS

NURSES' BILL OF RIGHTS

PROTECTION FOR HEALTH CARE WORKERS

RENT REGULATION

ABORTION

ROAD SAFETY

SCHOOL CUSTODIAN

CHARITABLE GAMING

ADULT ENTERTAINMENT PARLOUR

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

FÊTE DE LA SAINT-JEAN-BAPTISTE

M. Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa-Est) : Demain sera la Saint-Jean-Baptiste et je serai ailleurs dans la province pour fêter ce jour cher à tous les Canadiens et Canadiennes de Whitehorse jusqu'à Saint-Jean, Terre-Neuve. Je m'en serais voulu de ne pas souligner, comme je le fais à toutes les années, une fête qui a de l'importance pour tous les Canadiens et Canadiennes qui aiment leur pays. Je sais que c'est surtout le temps de célébrer, mais je m'en voudrais de ne pas lancer un message tout spécial au ministre délégué aux Affaires francophones.

Le gouvernement conservateur essaie de se donner l'image d'un gouvernement moins dur qui écoute la population. Si c'est le cas, prêtez l'oreille à ce que vous demande la population francophone de l'Ontario et faites quelque chose de vrai pour elle au lieu de la prendre en otage comme vous l'avez fait pour le projet de loi 108.

ALGOMA ORE DIVISION, WAWA

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I rise today to pay tribute to the men and women who have worked with Algoma Ore division in the iron ore mine operation in Wawa for over 55 years.

Wawa is famous for the wild goose statue, and those who know the community will know that the Algoma Ore division, AOD, has had a sintering operation there for many years, which ceases today. After about 60 years of mining and serving as the primary industry and main employer in Wawa, AOD shuts down for all time this Friday.

Algoma Ore division is the only underground iron ore mine in North America. It is one of the most efficient underground mines in the world. Algoma Ore division and the steelworkers who work there, if they were competing with other underground mines in Canada, would be one of the most productive and profitable.

Wawa is indebted to the commitment, skills, innovation and hard work of the employees of AOD over these many years. They've helped to build a vibrant community. They've provided many of the facilities the community has come to rely upon.

AOD will continue operating until this Friday. On Saturday, I will join the people of Wawa in celebrating the achievements of AOD and the Steelworkers in Wawa.

YOUTH ASSISTING YOUTH

Mr William Saunderson (Eglinton): I am pleased to rise in the House today to speak about an organization in my riding of Eglinton. Youth Assisting Youth has a proven track record, with 22 years of experience in preventing crime and school dropouts.

Youth Assisting Youth has worked hard to find innovative sources of funding and continues to be proactive and successful in its funding approach. The organization is strong in every respect and its programs are not in jeopardy, as has been suggested in this House.

I want to stress to all members that Youth Assisting Youth has many sources of funding, and it remains a proactive, well-funded and recognized contributor to youth services in Toronto. Indeed, Youth Assisting Youth is now examining the feasibility of expanding into other parts of the province and invites interested MPPs to contact them, or they can contact me if they would like some direction.

I have personal knowledge of the excellent work done by this organization and I am sure all members of this House would join me in congratulating Youth Assisting Youth for their commitment to young people.

GOLDCORP STRIKE

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): My statement is directed to the Minister of Labour. Today marks the second anniversary of Goldcorp's strike. As we are aware, this strike is the longest in the province's history. It has placed more than 180 workers on the street, and we have a community trying to deal with the economic impact such a strike imposes on business, social agencies and the community in general.

The minister has done nothing for the Goldcorp workers. He has done nothing in the community that is affected by the strike. He has done nothing for them. As I pointed out to his predecessor, this strike is tearing the community apart while he and his government show little interest in it.

My constituents want to know what progress the minister has made, since taking office, to settle the strike, now in its 730th day. The minister and his government are not interested in settling this strike; they're more interested in taking away workers' rights through legislation such as Bill 31. They are more interested in doing this than they are in protecting the workers.

I call upon the minister to show some interest in this strike, rather than have his anti-union policies, which are encouraging Goldcorp to continue the strike. As the Premier refused to set up a meeting with the workers during his visit to the region, I again call upon this Minister of Labour, as I have his predecessor, to travel with me to Balmertown, not only to meet with the strikers but to meet with their families and their community.

PROPERTY TAXATION

Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): Residents across Niagara region are being hit hard by this government's downloading on to them. This government is hitting them right in the pocketbook, whacking them hard with property tax increases and new user fees.

Let me tell you what the regional municipality of Niagara has been forced to do. Ms Zimmerman, who's our regional chair, said: "The budget process has been a long and difficult one; downloading has hit regional services much more significantly than at the municipal level." She points out that they've got a responsibility, as the regional council, to educate and inform their ratepayers; in other words, to let them know exactly what those new property taxes are and why they're there. It's because this provincial government doesn't care about the welfare of people in Niagara and, quite frankly, residents across this province.

It has downloaded, resulting in massive increases in property taxes and other user fees. I tell you, it's going to hit the lowest incomes the worst. That includes seniors, that includes the increasing number of lower and lower paid workers. It means a high level of unemployed people, because in Niagara unemployment is still among the highest in this province, notwithstanding, but as a direct result of, three years of the Mike Harris Tory reign.

The information ads that are being published are going to make it clear to Niagara residents that there's one person and one person only to blame for their new property taxes, and that's Mike Harris and his henchpeople here at Queen's Park.

INTERNATIONAL PLOWING MATCH

Mr Bill Vankoughnet (Frontenac-Addington): I would like to invite all members and their constituents to this year's International Plowing Match to be held in Frontenac-Addington. The 1998 International Plowing Match and Farm Machinery Show, to be held September 15 to 19, will be hosted in the municipality of South Frontenac, the hamlet of Sunbury, Storrington township, north of Kingston.

This event is one of the premier agricultural showcases in North America, attracting some of the best plowpersons from around the world, and is one of the largest machinery shows on the continent.

The 1998 theme, "Quality Living: A Partnership" represents the relationship between rural and urban residents and aptly represents all that eastern Ontario has to offer.

In Ontario, agriculture is our second-largest industry, surpassed only by the auto industry. Eastern Ontario is one of the province's best agricultural areas and boasts a wealth of historical and cultural sites that showcase our Loyalist heritage, as well as the best natural and scenic beauty anywhere. The plowing match is an excellent opportunity for us to promote this area that includes Kingston, Rideau Lakes, the Thousand Islands, Quinte, the Land O'Lakes and the highlands of Hastings.

The tireless work of the many volunteers ensuring that this year's match is the best ever is further proof that, just as during last winter's ice storm, we in eastern Ontario have a way of pulling together and supporting our communities at all times, good and bad.

I encourage everyone to attend the International Plowing Match.

CABINET MEMBERS

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-Walkerville): It was with great interest that we read this morning's news clippings about a potential cabinet shuffle, because it appears as though there are lots of changes going on over there. We read with great interest about who's coming and who's going and why they're going and where they're going, and moreover, who's being left out and who's not being looked after.

We read with great interest that still no decision has been made about the Solicitor General's role, even though we all know where that problem started, don't we? We see, even more interestingly, that Mr Baird is going into cabinet as the environment minister. What happens to Mr Sterling? What's going on? How many contested nominations? And what about all those poor, hardworking members who have been overlooked, who may in fact have contested nominations as well? Why aren't they being looked after? What's going on?

What about people like Jim Brown and Frank Klees and others, members who have done a yeoman's service for the government, not being considered in this cabinet shuffle? What about Steve Gilchrist? Overlooked again. We see with interest what's going on. How could they overlook that? What is happening over there? What about all those other members who have contested nominations? We would have thought the government leader would have wanted to ensure the re-election of all of them.

What about our beloved Speaker? What's going to happen to him in all this?

CHILDREN'S AID SOCIETIES

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): I rise today on a very serious issue with respect to children's aid societies and how they're being starved in this province. Right now, children's aid workers who are members of the Ontario Public Service Employees Union are holding information pickets to protest the ongoing starvation of children's aid societies. Ontario's children's aid workers protect all of our children, all types of abuses that are going on, and they are there on the front lines, in the home or elsewhere.

The problem is that they can't do it any more. They can't protect Ontario's children. Ontario's abused children need our help. Across Ontario, child abuse complaints are not being investigated quickly enough. Children's aid staff live in fear that a child will die because a case could not be opened in time. The stress is unbearable for many children's aid workers. Burnout is high and stress leave is routine.

There is much that we can do, joining with people in Ontario. I have the first two boxes of thousands and thousands of cards that are being sent to the Premier. There are about 5,000 here and there are more on the way. These are ordinary Ontarians demanding that this government put children first; that you stop the starvation of children's aid societies; that you put the resources in place to hire enough front-line workers to do the job of protecting Ontario's children.

SAUGEEN DISTRICT SECONDARY SCHOOL SENIOR BAND

Mrs Barbara Fisher (Bruce): It gives me great pleasure to share with my colleagues an outstanding accomplishment by a group of young people from the town of Port Elgin. I refer to the Saugeen District Secondary School senior band. This 61-member, extracurricular concert band, led by music teacher Wayne McGrath, competed in the Ovation Music Festival in Boston, Massachusetts, in April this year.

The band won gold in its class and gold overall at the festival and was ranked in the top 20% in North America. The band was also voted grand champions of the festival. The top soloist award was won by Kelly Irvine for flute and piccolo. Further, after all of the 30 adjudicated festivals were completed, the Saugeen District Secondary School senior band achieved top marks and placed first in North America.

This extraordinary accomplishment demonstrates the dedication and talent of our young people. Band members arrive early at school for rehearsals which begin at 7:30 am. The Bluewater board of education offers strong instrumental music programs and the area benefits from a solid network of private teachers who offer help in piano and guitar.

I am very proud of the band's accomplishments. This may be a once-in-a-lifetime event for many of these young people and will encourage them to strive for excellence in all they do over the course of their lives.

I congratulate Wayne McGrath, Kelly Irvine and all band members, parents and teachers who helped make this possible.

ORAL QUESTIONS

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): My question is to the Solicitor General. We heard today about a concern of information regarding Ipperwash not being kept for future use. This is a serious matter. The Solicitor General must have known it was a serious matter shortly after the shooting. Can the Solicitor General assure the public that you have secured all the files regarding Ipperwash and that nothing has been destroyed since the shooting took place on September 6, 1995?

Hon Jim Flaherty (Minister of Labour, Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): There has been an interim order by the Information and Privacy Commissioner directed to the ministry and a response is being prepared, including the affidavit that the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner has requested. That response from the ministry will be provided within the time limits expressly stated by the privacy commissioner. That response will be forthcoming in this ongoing process between the ministry and the office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner.

Mr Phillips: What I'm searching for and would like from you, as the minister, the Solicitor General, the individual primarily responsible for law enforcement in this province, is your personal assurance that you have now looked into the situation in your office, that you have reviewed with your civil servants, with our public service in your area, what has taken place with the files. Can you assure the Ontario public that nothing, no information that is central to Ipperwash, the shooting of Dudley George and the criminal investigation of the OPP, has been destroyed or gotten rid of in your office?

Hon Mr Flaherty: The present information request arises out of a request made in April 1997 to which a response was made in May 1997. The result of that is that the Information and Privacy Commissioner has reviewed the material and has expressed the view that a further response is required, and the deputy minister certainly has assured me that he will be responding as directed by the Information and Privacy Commissioner. That is her job; she's performing her function pursuant to her legislative responsibilities and we're responding accordingly.

Mr Phillips: Nothing could be more important around the whole Ipperwash episode than the preservation of essential information in the Solicitor General's office. We know that the OPP had serious concerns about the direction the government took on Ipperwash. We know that the OPP expressed concerns about the way the cabinet was proceeding with the injunction. We know there were serious concerns about the direction that was going on at Ipperwash.

What the public have a right to know from you, the Solicitor General, the minister responsible for law enforcement in Ontario - can you today give us your assurance that you have reviewed with your staff what they have done with all of the files since that shooting on September 6 and can you assure the public that nothing has been destroyed or gotten rid of that is pertinent to the Ipperwash affair?

Hon Mr Flaherty: I can assure the honourable member that I have been assured by the deputy minister that, in all of his inquiries and his searches to date, he has found no evidence that any pertinent records have been destroyed. Further, all reasonable efforts have been made and will continue to be made to respond to the request from the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner, which is entirely the appropriate course of conduct to be taken by the ministry.

The deputy minister has also indicated to me that the ministry has gone so far as to search the electronic mail backup system and no responsive records could be found. The deputy minister himself has assured me that the interim order from the Privacy Commissioner will be responded to as soon as possible.

RESPITE CARE

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): I have a question for the Minister of Health. Minister, I want to talk to you today about home care and in particular about respite care.

I have a particular case to bring to your attention. This involves 60-year-old George Kennedy of Sudbury who has been caring for his 59-year-old wife, Silvia, since 1988. Silvia is a former school teacher. She was diagnosed with a brain tumour in 1988 and underwent radiation treatment. She has been on disability since then. In 1992, she was operated on because of a brain aneurysm. She can't walk, she can't talk, she's tube fed 12 hours a day, she takes medication 19 times a day and she needs round-the-clock care.

Her husband, George, quit his job in 1994 to look after his wife. He currently receives 37 hours per week of home care and some homemaking services but he was just recently denied access to any respite care. Do you know what he did get, though? He was looking for a nurse or a nursing assistant; what he got was a pamphlet costing $1.3 million, telling him that everything was fine in Ontario in so far as health care was concerned. What's your answer to him about respite care?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Health): One of the reasons we have been restructuring health services in Ontario is so that we can ensure that we are responding to the needs of the population.

One of the points I think I need to make is the fact that we have in this province a rapidly aging population. In fact, between the years 1996 to 2006, we're going to see an increase of 35% in those over the age of 75. So one of the areas where we have seen it necessary to make investments is in the area of community services. That, of course, provides support to people within their homes. People throughout this province, no matter where they live, will have increased access to services within their own homes as a result of the new investment we will make over the next eight years.

Mr McGuinty: This minister is exceptionally good at talking the talk when it comes to health care in the province. She is very good at making the promises.

This is a man who has worked hard all of his life and paid his taxes. He quit his job to look after his sick wife. All he is looking for from you is a little bit of help to give him a break. His doctor has told him that if he doesn't get somewhere between eight and 12 hours every week of respite care so he can get the hell out of the house, he's going to get sick. All he's asking for is a bit of a break from you. All he's had to date, by means of contact, is a pamphlet costing $1.3 million. He's asking for help that's valued at $200 a week.

I am asking a simple question: Why is it we can afford to pay for a pamphlet costing $1.3 million and ship it around the province but we can't help out George and Silvia Kennedy, costing $200 a week?

Hon Mrs Witmer: Our government's plan for health is in response to the needs of people. I would say to the Leader of the Opposition, despite the fact that the federal government has cut health care transfers by $2 billion since 1993, our government has not only absorbed the $2 billion that was lost in transfer payments but in response to the needs of people of all ages is presently spending $1.2 billion more than we had said we were going to spend.

We recognize, as the Leader of the Opposition has just indicated, that there are people in this province who have needs and we are endeavouring to respond to those needs. That's why we're making the changes to health care. That's why we're introducing the $1.2 billion in long-term-care services. That will go to facilities and also community -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Supplementary.

Mr McGuinty: Listen to what Mr Kennedy's doctor has told us. The doctor has told us that Mr Kennedy hasn't been out of the house for years. He hasn't been to a dentist in years. He hasn't even been able to get out of the house to go to physio for his back. He's got a problem with his back and his knee and his groin because every day he's got to spend time lifting and caring for his wife.

My question, once again, is very simple: Why is it that in Ontario today, the Mike Harris Ontario, we can afford to spend $1.3 million on propaganda but we can't afford to come up with $200 a week to help Mr Kennedy and his wife? Do you know how much respite care $1.3 million would get us? It would get us 125 years of respite care for Mr Kennedy. Or another way to put it: It would get one year of respite care for 125 families like the Kennedys today in Ontario who are going without some basic help. Why is it that, according to your priorities, we can pay for this propaganda but we can't help people who need the help?

Hon Mrs Witmer: Our government, with the changes we are making, is helping people in this province. In fact we have 43 community care access centres in this province. The community care access centres, as you know, are set up in such a way that there are local boards that make decisions.

The funding to the Sudbury CCAC has actually increased 50.5% since 1991-92. The funding to the Sudbury CCAC in 1996-97 was $16.7 million. The funding to the Sudbury CCAC in 1997-98 is going to be increased to $20 million. You can see that we continue to respond to the needs of people in these communities across Ontario, and in Sudbury there's going to be an increase of $3.3 million.

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is for the Solicitor General. For almost two years now we have been asking questions of your government concerning the death of Dudley George, an unarmed man who was taking

part in a non-violent protest. We've asked for a public inquiry so that the facts could emerge. We've asked repeatedly in this Legislature for information and your government continues to provide no information. Frankly, you continue to stonewall.

This latest revelation is perhaps most troubling of all. Here we have an OPP officer who signs a sworn affidavit, who says that when he worked for the Deputy Solicitor General of your government during the time of the Ipperwash incident he left behind all of his records, all of his memoranda, all of his notes, yet your government now says those notes don't exist. What happened to those notes, Minister? What happened to those records?

Hon Jim Flaherty (Minister of Labour, Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): In response to the leader of the third party, as I mentioned earlier in response to the question from the Liberal Party, the deputy minister has assured me that in all of his inquiries and searches to date he has found no evidence that any pertinent records have been destroyed, and further, that all reasonable efforts have been made and will continue to be made to respond to the request.

The status is that the Information and Privacy Commissioner, as is her job and her statutory duty, has indicated that she is not satisfied, and with respect to the response she had received previously she has made an interim order and the ministry will be responding within the time limit set out by the Information and Privacy Commissioner.

Mr Hampton: The minister's answer gives away the problem here. Minister, it is not for you or the whiz kids in the Premier's office to decide what is pertinent in the investigation of the death of Dudley George. That responsibility rests with the privacy commissioner. For you to say, "Well, we'll decide what's pertinent, we'll decide what documents are pertinent for public scrutiny and for public information," shows how little you understand the privacy law and how much your government is prepared, I say quite frankly, to abuse that privacy law.

It is unprecedented that somebody who worked in the deputy minister's office would swear an affidavit saying, "All these records exist; I left them in the care and control of the government," and now your government says, "We can't find any of the records," records that pertain to the wrongful death of an unarmed man - and your government says, "We can't find any of the records."

The deputy minister has been asked to swear an affidavit. I'm asking you, will you do everything in your power to find those records?

Hon Mr Flaherty: As the leader of the third party knows, there is a process that has been established through the legislation governing the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner. It applies to all the various ministries in the government. It also applies to the Ministry of the Solicitor General and Correctional Services.

The information commissioner has indicated that she requires an affidavit from the deputy minister, and the deputy minister has confirmed to me that he will provide a sworn affidavit that will address all the matters raised in the interim order which we have received from the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner.

The process is being followed. The directions of the Information and Privacy Commissioner are being followed according to the law in Ontario.

Mr Hampton: The only process that is being followed here is a process by the government of stalling, of trying to put this off. This request to the Information and Privacy Commissioner went in over a year ago, and for a year you have done everything possible to avoid providing this information. The privacy commissioner is having to head off the same frustration that we're dealing with.

We wanted some of these questions answered by a legislative committee, so we scheduled a mere 12 hours before the justice committee. What does your government do to head that off, to avoid having to answer those questions? You send a budget bill to the justice committee, a budget bill so you won't have to answer these questions about how an unarmed, innocent man was killed. Now we try to

schedule it before another committee and you refuse to meet. You refuse every step of the way to answer these questions.

Minister, I asked you a moment ago, will you give a personal undertaking that you will do everything possible to find those records or explain what happened to them?

Hon Mr Flaherty: The member opposite talks about stalling. He should be aware of the facts, if he's not aware of the facts, that the initial request to the Ministry of the Solicitor General in this particular matter to which he makes reference was April 15, 1997. The response was May 16, 1997, from the ministry. The correspondence, including the interim order from the Information and Privacy Commissioner, was June 19, 1998. So there certainly has not been stalling on the part of the ministry. The ministry will respond within the time limit set out by the Information and Privacy Commissioner in her order, which was only forwarded June 19, 1998.

ONTARIO HYDRO

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My next question is for the Deputy Premier, and I would say yes, it's taken the privacy commissioner a while to chase this down, and the only reason is because you're not forthcoming with the records and the information.

Deputy Premier, I have a press release here. It is from Newcourt Credit Group, a company that specializes in providing capital financing for companies that want to get into the production of private electrical power, private electrical plants. This company has just announced that the chair of Hydro, the Premier's good friend Mr Bill Farlinger, is now not only the chair of Hydro but is also on the board of Newcourt Credit.

I understand Mr Farlinger's job at Hydro. He's supposed to be looking after all the people in this province who purchase power from Hydro. What I don't understand is what he's going to do for this private company. Can you tell me, Deputy Premier, whose interest is Mr Farlinger going to look after here, the public at Hydro or the private -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you. Deputy Premier.

Hon Ernie L. Eves (Deputy Premier, Minister of Finance): I do not know of the press release or the contents therein. I'd be more than happy to look into the matter for you and get back to you about it. I would presume, though, that if Mr Farlinger or anybody else who was appointed to any board had a conflict or even a perceived conflict in any manner, they would declare it and not take

part in any discussion related thereto.

Mr Hampton: Oh, the government that says, "We see no evil and we don't want to see anything." It's your job to protect the public interest here. It's your job to ensure that Mr Farlinger is serving all those ratepayers in Ontario who are purchasing hydro from Ontario Hydro.

The problem, as I see it, is this: You've announced that you've got a competition policy for Hydro. Newcourt is in the business of helping private firms set up power plants and get into the competitive business. Is Mr Farlinger working for Hydro here, is he working for all the hydro-electric purchasers of Ontario, or is Mr Farlinger working to help some of these private companies get into competition with Hydro? It seems to me he can't be doing both at the same time. If he is, it's a conflict of interest.

Which is it, Minister? You're supposed to protect the private and the public interests in this province. Which interest is he serving here?

Hon Mr Eves: Mr Farlinger is entitled, as is any other private citizen in the province, to do whatever he wants in his own time. The province did not appoint him to any board. He can decide in his own mind - he's subject to the same conflict-of-interest rules that everybody else in government is subject to -

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): We know what they are worth.

Hon Mr Eves: Well, they're worth a heck of a lot more, I say to the member for Beaches-Woodbine - do we want to start going through the litany of Bob Rae cabinet ministers who had to resign from cabinet because of conflict-of-interest allegations?

Mr Hampton: The Deputy Premier tries the defence here that when you don't have an answer, throw some mud, even if it's irrelevant. Just for the record, Deputy Premier, no one in the Bob Rae cabinet -

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Leader of the third party, hold on. I'm having difficulty hearing you.

Mr Hampton: Let me get back to the point, and that is that Mr Farlinger himself said only two weeks ago that, given your government's plans for Hydro, the stranded debt could reach $30 billion. In other words, the taxpayers of the province and the public that buys power from Hydro could be stuck picking up $30 billion in stranded debt due to your policies. On the other side of things, the private power producers may stand to come in and literally cream the market.

My question is, who is Mr Farlinger serving here? Is he going to be looking after the taxpayers of this province, who could be stuck with some of that $30-billion stranded debt, is he going to be looking after all the hydro ratepayers who may be stuck, or is he going to be looking after the private companies that can come in and cream the market? He is not a private citizen; he has public responsibilities here.

Hon Mr Eves: He is also subject to conflict-of-interest regulations and guidelines. I might point out to the leader of the third party some of the Hydro board appointees, who I presume had absolutely no conflict of interest, under the Bob Rae government: Michael Cassidy, former provincial NDP leader and federal MP; Kealey Cummings, former national director of CUPE and executive of Ottawa Centre NDP; Elmer McVey, prominent Canadian Labour Congress member and NDP member; John Murphy, former CUPE vice-president and president of the Power Workers' Union. You don't think that's a conflict? You are on a one-way street, and it's one way to last place.

HOSPITAL SERVICES

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): My question is to the Minister of Health and it has to do with the tragic death of a constituent. The minister is familiar with the case because I sent her two letters and some considerable background. Just to familiarize her, though, the woman was 35 years old, 30 weeks pregnant and entered the local hospital, a terrific hospital, Scarborough Grace. She then had a brain haemorrhage. Scarborough Grace notified an organization called CritiCall, that was assigned to find her a neurosurgery bed. This was at 7:21 pm; it happened last September.

CritiCall made 21 phone calls to four different hospitals, trying to get her a bed. They were unable to get her a neurosurgery bed here in Toronto. They phoned Scarborough Grace back at 9:38 and said they were unable to find her a bed. The closest bed was in Hamilton. They then phoned air ambulance, and air ambulance was unable to respond. She was then transported by land. Tragically, she passed away. The baby was saved.

I've been waiting now, as you know, Minister, for nine months for you to give me an answer regarding how this could happen. Can you inform the House now how this could happen in Ontario?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Health): I would be pleased to follow up and provide information for the member.

Mr Phillips: Minister, I sent you all the details. I personally phoned you but only talked to your executive assistant. I sent you another letter three weeks ago asking that you, on an urgent basis, look into this.

The reason I'm pursuing it is that, tragically, this woman is dead now, but I want to be sure that the ministry has taken steps so that this couldn't happen again. That really is my question. Here in Toronto, 21 calls to four hospitals and they knew it was critical, but they could not find a bed. The closest bed was Hamilton. I might add that even when she arrived in Hamilton they had to phone another hospital to get an obstetrics surgeon over to save the baby.

Knowing how serious this is, what steps has your ministry taken since this death to ensure that something like this could never happen again?

Hon Mrs Witmer: These situations are certainly very tragic. As you know, we have undertaken communications with the hospitals. Also, in response to some of the situations that had happened as a result of emergency overcrowding, we set up a task force with the Ontario Hospital Association, because we want to make sure that these types of situations don't happen again. This had been going on for some time. When the task force made its recommendations to the government and the Ontario Hospital Association, there were recommendations for the hospitals to follow through and also for the government.

We responded to every one of the recommendations to ensure that - certainly we were prepared and the hospitals are doing their part to ensure that we can deal with these situations and take the appropriate steps necessary to prevent these types of situations in the future.

CHILDREN'S AID SOCIETIES

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): My question is to the minister responsible for children's issues. Today 1,500 children's aid workers, represented by the Ontario Public Service Employees Union, have set up information pickets to tell the public about the ongoing crisis at children's aid societies. A recent workload survey found that their caseloads are 36% higher than the acceptable level established by the ministry.

CAS workers are suffering from burnout and stress, and as one Ottawa-Carleton intake social worker told his society: "All of us have files, five, six, seven or more, on our desks that we've been unable to get to. All of us worry that some tragedy will take place. All of us fear a child will be hurt or killed." That CAS has implemented a pilot project on the new risk assessment model. They find that it takes six more hours per case. That means that in Ottawa they would have to hire up to 95% more staff to reach the acceptable workload level.

Minister, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Not one child will be helped by the new tools unless the staff are there to implement them. Will you guarantee there are enough front-line workers to make kids safe in Ontario?

Hon Margaret Marland (Minister without Portfolio [children's issues]): I appreciate the question from the member for Beaches-Woodbine. Our government has made the commitment that the children's aid societies in this province asked for. They asked for increased funding, they asked for universal assessment tools and they asked for a database that interlinked all of the children's aid societies around this province.

When we announced that $170 million in funding, that was welcomed openly and actually on the record in many public venues by the children's aid societies, because they told us that with that funding they could meet the increased workload. We knew there would be increased workloads with the new assessment systems and the universal reporting through the database. As far as our government is concerned, our pledge to protect these children, the most vulnerable children in our society, is ongoing.

Ms Lankin: I don't know how to respond to that. The key demand that you missed was they asked for enough front-line workers to use the new tools so that kids would be safe. The key response to your funding announcement that you missed was that it was only enough to make up for past cuts and that you didn't guarantee the emergency funding wouldn't be rolled into that and that it wasn't enough to keep up with increased caseloads. How did you miss that, Minister? I don't understand.

Kids are at risk. Caseloads are going up. In Ottawa-Carleton in less than two years the caseload has gone from 739 to 960. In London it has gone up in the same period by 33%. John Liston, the executive director there, says he doesn't have adequate staff to protect those kids in that increased caseload.

Minister, how bad does it have to get before your government will take action? As minister responsible for children, will you do just two things: Will you step in and conduct, with the CASs and the workers, a caseload workload survey? And if you find, like I'm saying, that you need more workers, will you convince your government to fund the front-line workers to protect Ontario's children?

Hon Mrs Marland: I'm happy to assure this House that the $170 million is going to front-line workers. That's what the children's aid societies asked us for.

In terms of the priority of this government in the protection of children, we have already reported on the reports that our government asked for. Incidentally, we asked for three reports on the welfare and the protection of children in this province. We are acting on the recommendations of those reports, which in turn will help the people who have the front-line responsibilities in the children's aid societies.

ARTS AND CULTURE FUNDING

Mrs Julia Munro (Durham-York): I have a question for the honourable Minister of Citizenship, Culture and Recreation. I was pleased to hear the government's announcement yesterday of a commercial theatre development fund. My riding of Durham-York is home to a vibrant commercial theatre community, including the Red Barn Theatre, the oldest professional summer theatre in Canada. Can you tell me what this fund will mean for the small theatre groups in my riding and across the province?

Hon Isabel Bassett (Minister of Citizenship, Culture and Recreation): I'm pleased to say that small and medium-sized commercial productions right across the province will be eligible for funding and consideration under the commercial theatre development fund pilot project. Any production or theatre that is outside of Toronto will be eligible for an additional $10,000. That will be available to those productions.

If I could just add, to the member for Durham-York, I'll be attending the Red Barn season opener, the 50th anniversary, on the 30th. I wish you well with that.

Mrs Munro: Can you please tell me what the selection process is for this fund?

Hon Ms Bassett: I want to say that since the fund was created by the theatre community, it will be managed by the theatre community, the Toronto Theatre Alliance. They will be considering four applications next year as part of the pilot project.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr David Caplan (Oriole): My question is for the Minister of Education and Training. Last week, on June 15, you announced with great fanfare one-time, $70-million funding for special education and lower class sizes across the province. However, I don't think you're really doing anyone a favour. I spoke with the Toronto District School Board finance department and they tell me there are no new dollars. What your plan is that for every dollar you transfer you will reduce -

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order.

Mr Caplan: I can understand that the members opposite don't want their masks to be revealed. I can understand that they don't want the public to know that for every dollar you transfer to the Toronto District School Board, your plan is to remove, through other places in the funding formula, dollar for dollar the exact, same amount. The Toronto District School Board finance department confirmed this with me. Will you confirm to this House that this is your policy?

Hon David Johnson (Minister of Education and Training): I will confirm in this House, exactly as we announced last week, that this government is going to ensure that the needs of the special education students across Ontario are met. To do that, we have put more money into the system such that the intensive support amounts which are required by individual students, through an audit process that'll take place this fall, will be funded by the boards.

In our estimate, this will involve perhaps up to $40 million of additional funding, new funding, more-than-has-been-announced funding in the past. But we're committed to this because we believe that the special education needs of the children which were served in the past must be served and met in the future.

Mr Caplan: That is a very interesting answer. I'm going to give you another chance, but maybe this time you should consult your own funding formula before you answer. Let me refer you to page 35 of your revised technical paper dated June 18, 1998. It clearly states that for boards there are limits to the increases they can have, dollar for dollar, and that anything above will be reduced in their operating grants. I'll quote:

"The new funding formula will be phased in such that boards will not experience changes in revenue due to the funding model exceeding 4%. Where the change in revenue is 4% or more, a mitigation grant adjustment for the difference will be made to the board's grant allocation."

This is your policy - a complete and utter shell game. You're going to make some grand announcement to put more dollars into the schools but take them away from other places. Stand in your place today, Minister, and guarantee that there will be no reduction from any school board budget because of your announcement and because of this policy.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Member for Durham East, you don't sit beside the member for Etobicoke-Humber.

Hon David Johnson: I'll guarantee that for the first time in the history of the province, including Liberal and NDP governments, this government is focusing on the classroom and the students. We're putting more money in the classroom. We're insisting that -

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon David Johnson: This government is going to meet the needs of the students, it's going to meet the needs of the special education students, as no government before has met the needs of students.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon David Johnson: I don't know why the opposition parties find this problematic. We're going to ensure that every board has more money in the classroom. We're going to ensure that every board has money to meet the needs of the special education student. The announcement of last week will involve about $40 million extra to meet the needs of the special education students across Ontario. I think that is good news.

NATIVE HOUSING

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): My question is to the Minister of Citizenship, Culture and Recreation. Yesterday I met with representatives of the Frontiers Foundation - in fact, they're here today - Dr Charles Catto, Marco Guzman and Tony Lew.

Since 1964 Frontiers has built and renovated over 3,000 homes for aboriginal families. These are families living in substandard and often unsafe housing; people with little electricity, water or sanitation. The problem is that the federal government has cut their funding and now you have done the same. This cut means that 37 families that were scheduled for renovation or rebuilding are going to continue to live in unsafe housing.

Minister, in January your office contacted Frontiers and said you were willing to look at this again. But since then they have not been able to get a meeting with you. Another construction season will be completed unless you do something today. Minister, are you going to help them?

Hon Isabel Bassett (Minister of Citizenship, Culture and Recreation): First of all, I must give my condolences to Charles Catto on the death of his father. I also want to say of course I have been in touch with him. My ministry has looked at some of the very valuable work he has done and we are trying to consider ways that we can help him, I think, to repay a considerable loan that may not exactly fit under the mandate we have right now.

We are not in the position in the ministry to hand out grants. They have to be considered in a careful way, and Charles Catto knows that very clearly. We have been working with him and now the ball is in his court to come back with a viable means whereby he can meet our criteria, and then we are happy to work with him.

Mr Marchese: Money has been flowing from your ministry to them for years. You just cut it. They have been living in these types of housing conditions. You can see it; it's a big picture. All they want is to live with some dignity, some very basic things. We're talking about warmth, shelter and safety.

Minister, I want to share with you some of the successes they have had, and you're aware of them. Last year they built a house for a native senior in Whitefish Falls. Mr E.B. Eddy, as you know, donated all the lumber. The house was built by volunteer labour and a new fridge and stove were donated by Camco. In total, Frontiers spent $19,000. The Ministry of Housing estimated that this house, if it were built by government contractors, would cost over $100,000. It's a program we should all be proud of, a program that spends carefully and leverages many times the amount they spend in volunteers' hours.

Minister, why is it that you can't find the money to help these people at a time of great need?

Hon Ms Bassett: We are working with Frontier College, we do appreciate the work they are doing and we are working now with the aboriginal programs unit, who are the ones who decide what is and is not important to their community. We are in the process of working out something that will be viable for everybody concerned.

CHILDREN'S NUTRITION

Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener): My question is for the minister responsible for children. Recently there have been a number of articles in the media discussing children's readiness to learn. Essentially studies are now proving that children who go to school healthy and well-nourished have a greater capacity to learn. Children who have empty stomachs can't learn. They can't concentrate on their school work. They don't have the capacity to retain information.

Minister, we are focusing on building the best education system possible but we have to make sure that our children are able to benefit from their daily lessons. Our government has a commitment to fund the Breakfast for Learning program, but is this alone going to help our children get off to a healthy start?

Hon Margaret Marland (Minister without Portfolio [children's issues]): I'd like to thank the member for Kitchener for his question. In 1996, as he knows, our Premier made a series of very important announcements that affect the lives of children. He recognized that early intervention and prevention are what get children off to their best start.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. It's okay. Minister.

Hon Mrs Marland: This could include help for families on the birth of a child or help with speech and language programs for them before the child begins school. It also includes help for families with school-age children who frankly aren't able to provide a healthy breakfast for those children before they start school and leave for school each morning.

We've created a variety of programs to meet the needs of individual children in Ontario and to ensure that children can get the most out of their future. I am actually very proud of what our government has done to help these children get our new programs.

Mr Wettlaufer: Families face a vast number of challenges in their upbringing of children. We know that. We also know that the government is truly committed to helping children get off on the right foot.

The Speaker: Member for Welland-Thorold, you've got to maintain your place. Thank you.

Mr Wettlaufer: I want to ask you specifically, however, about the breakfast programs. As you stated, it was in 1996 that the Premier announced the formation of a partnership between the government and the Canadian Living Foundation. Since that time we have seen child nutrition programs all over the province, and I know that they are of benefit to a vast number of children.

I also remember that a few months ago there was some concern raised that these programs were in financial difficulty. When the interests of the children are paramount, what has been done to help families and communities feed their children?

Hon Mrs Marland: You will remember that when we were in opposition as a party, the priority of children and the breakfast program had been a priority of this Premier since he became leader in 1990. I am delighted to say that, as promised, now the government will continue the child nutrition partnership with the Canadian Living Foundation.

In fact, last Tuesday we announced an additional $2.5 million for the program that has already served 56,000 children in 714 child nutrition programs. We have partnered with the foundation and with local communities to help ensure that children are well fed and have the ability to concentrate on the lessons before them when they get to school.

This government feels that it is critical for children to be able to learn and grow to their full potential. This is just one way that we're helping children in this province today.

GO TRANSIT

Mr Joseph Cordiano (Lawrence): My question is to the Minister of Transportation. It's obvious to everyone that your government has given up on GO Transit. Mississauga and Toronto are about to experience a huge loss in service and you're sitting back and not taking any responsibility for the cuts in service. You have refused, your government has refused to listen to the advice of the Crombie commission, which told you not to dump the cost of GO Transit on to municipalities.

Now you're refusing to listen to your caucus colleagues and cabinet colleagues. The member for Mississauga South, Margaret Marland, chastised the GO Transit board for cutting service and refusing to consult with the public. The member for Scarborough West, Steve Gilchrist, has been out collecting names for a petition to protest these cuts. Why are you giving up on GO Transit and refusing to listen to good advice from your own members?

Hon Tony Clement (Minister of Transportation): This government is not giving up on GO Transit at all. We wish GO Transit well. We think we have found a way to ensure -

Interjections.

Hon Mr Clement: I'm glad to see we can all see the humour in this situation.

I want to assure this House that GO Transit is an integral part of the interregional transit system in the greater Toronto area. Indeed, by virtue of the board that exists, representing all the municipalities in the region of the greater Toronto area, it allows each of the municipalities to have their say. In fact, as a result of the changes that Minister Leach and this government are pursuing, we are giving those municipalities more of a direct say than they've ever had before. I think that's a good thing for Ontario as well.

Mr Cordiano: I would like to wish the minister good luck in the coming cabinet shuffle. I'm sure he'll need it, with an answer like that.

Minister, it's obvious you have the power to intervene and to fix this problem. The city of Toronto just passed a resolution formally requesting you to review the funding allocation for GO Transit. Again, I ask you, why are you refusing to listen to that kind of request, which makes a lot of sense? After all, you have dumped the cost of GO Transit on to municipalities and you have burdened them. It's becoming fairly obvious that these municipalities are having a difficult time funding the services. They are looking to you to rectify this problem. It's your responsibility. Why are you giving up on GO Transit service in the greater Toronto area?

Hon Mr Clement: I can say again to this House that this government is not giving up on GO Transit. In fact, we think we have been able to give the tools to the municipalities to make sure that GO Transit succeeds and thrives in the future.

I would say to the honourable member - perhaps to both him and to those who passed the resolution dealing with the funding through the gas tax that the honourable member was referring to - that through our decisions in terms of the transfer of local services and provincial services, we have just given the municipalities $2.5 billion in tax room; $2.5 billion to deal with local transit issues, to deal with local water issues, to deal with other local issues, so they can deliver those services better.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Members, come to order, please.

Hon Mr Clement: As a result of that $2.5 billion worth of tax room to the municipalities, as a result of $106 million that we are transferring to GO Transit for capital needs this year, I think this government can stand four-square in saying, "We are supporting GO Transit and we are supporting the municipalities in their transportation needs."

PEEL DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is for the Minister of Education and Training. A serious problem has developed over the last several months at Dunrankin Drive Public School in Mississauga. The principal, Ms Claudette Neita, and now two teachers, have made formal complaints to the Ontario Human Rights Commission about racial discrimination on the part of the board. Ms Neita is the second black woman ever to be appointed as a school principal in Mississauga. She maintains that the Peel board has failed to implement its own racial discrimination policy.

There used to be an anti-discrimination and equal opportunity branch in your ministry, except your government eliminated it. You said that work could be done elsewhere.

Minister, will you ensure that racism is shut out of Ontario's education system, for teachers as well as students? Will you ensure that the incidents that are talked about here don't happen?

Hon David Johnson (Minister of Education and Training): To my understanding, the incident referred to by the leader of the third party is under investigation or under a review process through the local school board and is being dealt with accordingly. I would say that I concur in the sentiment that there is no room for racism, discrimination or bias, not only within the education system but within government in general. Certainly I can give him my assurances that I personally do not tolerate racism, do not tolerate any forms of discrimination, and would take the appropriate actions to ensure that they don't happen.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Supplementary.

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): We appreciate your sentiments but, as you know, to fight racism it requires more than just sentiments. As has been pointed out, Claudette Neita and at least two of her staff have been forced to go to the Ontario Human Rights Commission on this issue. The Peel board's answer so far has been to transfer Ms Neita to another school for next September. Some 85% of students and parents who are visible minorities at Dunrankin Drive school have petitioned the board to let Ms Neita stay at their school.

Your own ministry policy referendum number 119 on the development of school board anti-racism and ethnocultural equity policies states, "The ministry will conduct cyclical audits of the policy implementation." Your government, eliminated that branch that would have been conducting those audits.

The question to you is, what are you doing about it? What is your ministry doing? Who in fact is doing those audits to make sure that school boards enforce their own racial discrimination policies? Given that the branch is gone, how are you doing that job?

Hon David Johnson: I would say once again that this is a matter that is being dealt with by the local board. This is a matter that is being dealt with by the Ontario Human Rights Commission. I think those are both appropriate bodies, given where the original situation developed, and I would not pretend to interfere in that particular process.

Within the Ministry of Education, we do not tolerate racial discrimination. I give my assurances to the member opposite that whatever is required to ensure that racial discrimination is not entertained or allowed to take place within the ministry, we'll take those steps and ensure that they are in place.

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): On a point of order, Mr Chairman: I'm just wondering whether the Minister of Citizenship would like to correct the record. I heard her mentioning that -

The Speaker: Hold on. What is the point of order?

Mr Curling: The point of order is, I heard her saying "Frontier College," when it's "Frontiers Foundation."

The Speaker: Hold on, member for Scarborough North. Let me just be clear. You may correct your record. You may not correct another member's record.

Mr Curling: I'm asking her if she would like to correct her record.

The Speaker: On a point of order?

Interjections.

The Speaker: The opportunity exists at any time for a member to correct their own record, but it's not a point of order for you to ask a member - we could be here all day if members want to stand up and check to see if another member wants to correct their record.

Mr Curling: We are here all day.

The Speaker: We are here all day.

Petitions.

PETITIONS

ELECTORAL REFORM

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a petition which reads as follows:

"To the government of Ontario:

"Whereas the Conservative government of Mike Harris is trying increase the limit on the amount of money that corporations and individuals are allowed to contribute to political parties and individual candidates in Ontario; and

"Whereas the Harris government plans to introduce legislation to permit political parties and candidates to spend far more money during election campaigns; and

"Whereas the Conservative government of Mike Harris would like to remove certain campaign expenditures such as polling and campaign headquarters equipment from the spending limits placed on political parties and candidates; and

"Whereas the Conservative government is proposing to abolish the Ontario election finances commission, the watchdog agency policing political contributions and expenditures; and

"Whereas the Harris government wishes to shorten the length of provincial election campaigns and to permit expensive media advertising throughout the entire period, thereby favouring the political parties and candidates with the most money; and

"Whereas the changes to the Election Finances Act proposed by Mike Harris will give undue and unacceptable influence to the wealthiest and most powerful interests in our province and will result in the problems that have plagued the American political system, where money plays a central role;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, call upon Mike Harris to abandon his planned legislation which will permit substantial increases in the amount of money that can be contributed by corporations and individuals to political parties and candidates and the amount of money that political parties and candidates can spend on provincial elections."

I affix my signature as I'm in full agreement with this petition.

ABORTION

Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough): I have a petition with many signatures regarding abortion.

"Whereas Ontario taxpayers funded over 45,000 abortions in 1993 at an estimated cost of $25 million; and

"Whereas pregnancy is not a disease, injury, or illness, and abortions are not therapeutic procedures...."

It goes on, and the final, bottom line is:

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to cease from providing any taxpayers' dollars for the performance of abortions."

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas Thunder Bay and district are suffering from serious deterioration in our health care system because of the closing of hospital beds before community services and long-term-care facilities are available;

"We, the undersigned, therefore petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to make it an urgent priority to provide more long-term-care services in the home and to provide a sufficient number of long-term-care institutional beds and staff in order to restore the standards of health care to an acceptable level."

This is signed by hundreds of constituents of mine, and I'm very proud to add my name to this petition.

COMPENSATION FOR HEPATITIS C PATIENTS

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Simcoe Centre): I have a petition to the Parliament of Ontario.

"Whereas many Ontarians have been infected with the hepatitis C virus as a result of transfusions using contaminated blood; and

"Whereas the current compensation package only provides funding for those people infected between the years 1986 and 1990; and

"Whereas in Canada there are at least 20,000 surviving victims who were infected with hepatitis C before 1986, who placed their faith in the blood system and are now suffering;

"Now therefore, we, the undersigned, respectfully petition the Legislature of Ontario on behalf of the victims and their families in support of the Ontario government's call for a compensation package for Ontarians who are infected with the hepatitis C virus through the blood system prior to 1986, and that pending a resolution of the federal liability for the contaminated blood problem, Ontario agree in the interim that such new package be funded by the Ontario and the federal government on the same basis as the federal-provincial agreement covering 1986-90.

ADOPTION

Mr Alex Cullen (Ottawa West): I have a petition signed in support of the proposed reforms to adoption information. I will summarize the petition.

The residents here are signing a petition that would call for reforms that would allow access to birth registration and adoption records for adult adoptees, birth parents, adoptive parents and other relatives; implement a no-contact notice option; recommend optional counselling; offer access to other information, including medical; and acknowledge open adoptions.

I'm pleased to support it, and I'll affix my signature to it.

HEALTH CARE

Mr Harry Danford (Hastings-Peterborough): I have a petition on behalf of my colleague Noble Villeneuve, the member representing S-D-G & East Grenville. It's a very lengthy petition, which deals with health care in his riding and specifically supports the Health Services Restructuring Commission recommendations. I submit it on the behalf of the member and his constituents.

PROTECTION FOR HEALTH CARE WORKERS

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Parkdale): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, and it reads as follows:

"Whereas nurses in Ontario often experience coercion to participate in practices which directly contravene their deeply held ethical standards; and

"Whereas pharmacists in Ontario are often pressured to dispense and/or sell chemicals and/or devices contrary to their moral or religious beliefs; and

"Whereas public health workers in Ontario are expected to assist in providing controversial services and promoting controversial materials against their consciences; and

"Whereas physicians in Ontario often experience pressure to give referrals for medications, treatments and/or procedures which they believe to be gravely immoral; and

"Whereas competent health care workers and students in various health care disciplines in Ontario have been denied training, employment, continued employment and advancement in their intended fields and suffered other forms of unjust discrimination because of the dictates of their consciences; and

"Whereas the health care workers experiencing such unjust discrimination have at present no practical and accessible legal means to protect themselves;

"We, the undersigned, urge the government of Ontario to enact legislation explicitly recognizing the freedom of conscience of health care workers, prohibiting coercion of and unjust discrimination against health care workers because of their refusal to participate in matters contrary to the dictates of their consciences and establishing penalties for such coercion and unjust discrimination."

I've signed my name to this document.

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel): Mr Speaker, I have exactly the same petition to present to this House that was just presented by the member for Parkdale, and I submit that petition with my signature.

NURSES' BILL OF RIGHTS

Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas nursing is key to quality health care; and

"Whereas nurses want the right to provide high-quality care; and

"Whereas nurses want the right to be heard and consulted on health care issues; and

"Whereas nurses want the right to be recognized and treated as equals in the health care system; and

"Whereas nurses want the right to have meaningful participation in all aspects of health care reform; and

"Whereas nurses want the right to be advocates for their communities and the people they care for without fear of reprisal; and

"Whereas nurses want the right to work in settings that are free from harassment and discrimination and that nurture learning, diversity, personal growth, job satisfaction and mutual support; and

"Whereas nurses want the right work in conditions that promote and foster professionalism and teamwork; and

"Whereas nurses want the right to deliver care in an integrated, publicly funded, not-for-profit health care system that is grounded in the principles of the Canada Health Act;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to honour, promote and respect the nurses' bill of rights as outlined above and to ensure that these rights are enshrined in all aspects of health care."

I'm proud to sign my name to that petition.

PROTECTION FOR HEALTH CARE WORKERS

Mr Bob Wood (London South): I have a petition signed by 30 people:

"Whereas nurses in Ontario often experience coercion to participate in practices which directly contravene their deeply held ethical standards; and

"Whereas pharmacists in Ontario are often pressured to dispense and/or sell chemicals and/or devices contrary to their moral or religious beliefs; and

"Whereas public health workers in Ontario are expected to assist in providing controversial services and promoting controversial materials against their consciences; and

"Whereas physicians in Ontario often experience pressure to give referrals for medications, treatments and/or procedures which they believe to be gravely immoral; and

"Whereas competent health care workers and students in various health care disciplines in Ontario have been denied training, employment, continued employment and advancement in their intended fields and suffered other forms of unjust discrimination because of the dictates of their consciences; and

"Whereas the health care workers experiencing such unjust discrimination have at present no practical and accessible legal means to protect themselves;

"We, the undersigned, urge the government of Ontario to enact legislation explicitly recognizing the freedom of conscience of health care workers, prohibiting coercion of and unjust discrimination against health care workers because of their refusal to participate in matters contrary to the dictates of their consciences and establishing penalties for such coercion and unjust discrimination."

RENT REGULATION

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Parkdale): I have a petition to the Ontario government on rent control.

"Whereas the government has brought forth Bill 96, legislation which will effectively kill rent control in the province of Ontario; and

"Whereas the government has campaigned in literature during the York South by-election stating that" - listen to this - "rent control will continue; and

"Whereas tenant groups, students and seniors have pointed out that this legislation will hurt those who can least afford it, as it will cause higher rents across most markets in Ontario; and

"Whereas the government proposal will make it easier for residents to be evicted from retirement care homes; and

"Whereas the Liberal caucus continues to believe that all tenants, and particularly the vulnerable in our society who live on fixed incomes, deserve the assurance of a maximum rent cap;

"We, the undersigned, demand that the government of Ontario scrap its proposal to abandon and eliminate rent control and that it introduce legislation which will protect tenants in the province of Ontario."

Since I agree with this petition, I have signed my name to it.

ABORTION

Mrs Barbara Fisher (Bruce): I present this petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the Ontario health system is overburdened and unnecessary spending must be cut; and

"Whereas pregnancy is not a disease, injury or illness and abortions are not therapeutic procedures; and

"Whereas the vast majority of abortions are done for reasons of convenience or finance; and

"Whereas the province has exclusive authority to determine what services will be insured; and

"Whereas the Canada Health Act does not require funding for elective procedures; and

"Whereas there is mounting evidence that abortion is in fact hazardous to women's health; and

"Whereas Ontario taxpayers funded over 45,000 abortions in 1993 at an estimated cost of $25 million;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to cease from providing any taxpayers' dollars for the performance of abortions."

I affix my name to the petition.

ROAD SAFETY

Mr Alex Cullen (Ottawa West): This petition deals with red light cameras.

"To the Legislature of Ontario:

"Whereas red light cameras can dramatically assist in reducing the number of injuries and deaths resulting from red light runners; and

"Whereas red light cameras only take pictures of licence plates, thus reducing privacy concerns; and

"Whereas all revenues from violations can be easily directed to a designated fund to improve safety at high-collision intersections; and

"Whereas there is a growing disregard for traffic laws, resulting in serious injury to pedestrians, bicyclists, motorists and especially children and seniors; and

"Whereas the provincial government has endorsed the use of a similar camera system to collect tolls on the new 407 tollway; and

"Whereas mayors and concerned citizens across Ontario have been seeking permission to deploy these cameras due to limited police resources;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"That the province of Ontario support the installation of red light cameras at high-collision intersections to monitor and prosecute motorists who run red lights."

I am pleased to add my signature, along with the many others who have signed it.

SCHOOL CUSTODIAN

Mr Toby Barrett (Norfolk): I have a petition concerning the attempt to fire a school custodian who does not speak French, and as I have previously mentioned, he will not be fired.

"Whereas the local French community and staff at École Sainte-Marie in Simcoe have signed a separate petition in support of Mr Santiago Reyes indicating that they want him to continue to work as a custodian at their school; and

"Whereas Mr Reyes has an excellent performance record and should not be discriminated against on the basis of language or in any other way; and

"Whereas the undersigned join the local French community's request that any further attempts to involuntarily displace Mr Reyes from his custodial position at École Sainte-Marie in Simcoe be stopped immediately and want him to continue to work as custodian in that location;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to guarantee to Mr Reyes his right to not be discriminated against on the basis of language."

I agree with this petition and hereby affix my signature.

CHARITABLE GAMING

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a petition which reads as follows:

"Whereas the Mike Harris government is trying to impose so-called charity casinos on 44 communities across Ontario as a vehicle to make profits from gambling for government coffers; and

"Whereas these gambling halls will bleed from the communities on which they are imposed the discretionary dollars which might otherwise be spent on goods and services; and

"Whereas the Harris government is attempting to bribe cash-strapped municipalities to accept the new gambling halls by promising to pay a so-called administration fee to operate slot machines in the casinos; and

"Whereas the Harris government is attempting to coerce municipalities into accepting the new 24-hour-a-day, seven-days-a-week gambling halls by suggesting that charities may not receive funding;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, call upon the Mike Harris government to halt the imposition of new gambling halls, so-called charity casinos, on communities across Ontario."

I affix my signature as I'm in full agreement with this petition.

ADULT ENTERTAINMENT PARLOUR

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean): I have a petition I'm presenting on behalf of my colleague the member for Carleton and on behalf of a constituent, Rosemary McKee of Nepean, which reads as follows:

"To the Legislature of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned residents of Ontario, draw the attention of the Legislature of Ontario to the following:

"That the city of Kanata accepted an application for an adult entertainment parlour, based on a ruling by the Supreme Court of Canada dated May 17, 1977, that confirmed that an adult entertainment parlour is a lawful business which a municipality has no right to prohibit. To do so would be to attempt to regulate public morality, which falls under the federal jurisdiction of the criminal law. The Ontario Municipal Act,

section M-225, allows the municipality the right to regulate the business, not prohibit it.

"That pornography is harmful. In 1992 the Supreme Court ruled 9-0 that obscenity is to be defined by the harm it does to women, and not by what offends our values.

"That pornography portrays women as objects, which has a negative impact on the individual's sense of self-worth and acceptance. Pornography reinforces traditional sexual stereotypes and its attitudes towards women and children of male dominance and power, forcing women into subordinate, degrading and dehumanizing roles. It is a threat to the equality and the safety of women. It is also a threat to us as people individually and to our relationships and to the families.

"Therefore, your petitioners call upon the Legislature to:

"(

a) pursue changes to legislation regarding the Ontario Municipal Act;

"(

b) pursue discussions with the federal government that would give municipalities the right to prohibit said adult entertainment parlours, goods and services, as well as broaden the restrictions on existing adult entertainment parlours to reduce the incidence of crime."

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): I move that, pursuant to standing order 46 and notwithstanding any other standing order or special order of the House relating to Bill 25,

An Act to reduce red tape by amending or repealing certain Acts and by enacting two new Acts, when Bill 25 is next called as a government order, the Speaker shall put every question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill, without further debate or amendment; and at such time, the bill shall be referred to the standing committee on administration of justice;

That the standing committee on administration of justice shall be authorized to meet to consider the bill for six days at its regularly scheduled meeting times beginning at its first regularly scheduled meeting time following the summer recess;

That, pursuant to standing order 74(d), the Chair of the standing committee on administration of justice shall establish the deadline for the tabling of amendments or for filing them with the clerk of the committee;

That the committee shall be authorized to meet for the purpose of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill at its regularly scheduled meeting times for a further two days for the purposes of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill;

That, at 4:30 pm on the second day of clause-by-clause consideration, those amendments which have not yet been moved shall be deemed to have been moved, and the Chair of the committee shall interrupt the proceedings and shall, without further debate or amendment, put every question necessary to dispose of all remaining sections of the bill and any amendments thereto;

That any divisions required shall be deferred until all remaining questions have been put and taken in succession with one 20-minute waiting period allowed pursuant to standing order 127(a);

That the committee shall report the bill to the House not later than the first sessional day following the completion of clause-by-clause consideration. In the event that the committee fails to report the bill on the date provided, the bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the committee and shall be deemed to be reported to and received by the House;

That upon receiving the report of the standing committee on administration of justice, the Speaker shall put the question for adoption of the report forthwith and at such time the bill shall be ordered for third reading;

That one sessional day shall be allotted to the third reading stage of the bill. At 5:55 pm or 9:25 pm, as the case may be, on such day, the Speaker shall interrupt the proceedings and shall put every question necessary to dispose of this stage of the bill without further debate or amendment;

That the vote on third reading of the bill may, at the request of any chief whip of a recognized party in the House, be deferred until the next sessional day during the routine proceeding "Deferred Votes"; and

That, in the case of any division relating to any proceeding on the bill, the division bells shall be limited to five minutes.

Madam Speaker, I'll be sharing my time with the member for Hamilton West, the member for Lambton and the member for Simcoe Centre. I believe we have an agreement to share the time equally among the three recognized parties in the Legislature and I would ask for unanimous consent for that agreement.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms Marilyn Churley): Is there unanimous consent for each of the parties to share the time equally? Agreed.

Hon Mr Sterling: Madam Speaker, as you know, this is Bill 25, a bill dealing with a wide range of subjects relating to this government's goal of reducing red tape where it's unnecessary in order to conduct business not only with the government but outside of the government in the private sector.

I'd like to ask the member for Hamilton West, who is the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, who has responsibility for this bill, to now represent the government.

Mrs Lillian Ross (Hamilton West): I'm pleased to address this bill on behalf of my colleague the Honourable David Tsubouchi.

I would like to speak today about the importance of the bill both to business and to consumers. I will also provide some detail on specific initiatives that the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations is proposing.

With this bill, we have looked across government and zeroed in on important red tape reduction initiatives. They focus on some of our key priorities and the priorities of the people of Ontario.

Bill 25 proposes amendments to streamline processes and increase efficiency in Ontario's health sector, in the justice system, the rural and agricultural sector and a number of other sectors. All these initiatives share a single goal: to help these and other vital sectors operate as efficiently as possible, maximizing their productive time.

For years before we came to office, business had been trying to get government to understand the crushing impact of red tape, but to no avail. The mountain of regulation continued to grow, stifling business people who just wanted to make a living, to create jobs and to contribute in a meaningful way to our economy. Report after report showed the same thing: that business was spending too much time on paperwork and regulation and not enough on productively creating jobs and generating prosperity.

In 1993-94, the Fraser Institute estimated that small business was spending $85.7 billion a year simply to comply with government regulations. That's an astronomical amount of money. The Canadian Federation of Independent Business says that 43% of its member firms spend more than six hours a week just filling out forms and meeting a variety of government regulations. Clearly the old system was benefiting no one - not taxpayers, not businesses and not the customers and clients they served. We were elected to change that.

Right from the beginning we made a clear, concerted effort to reduce the regulatory burden. We cut red tape both in our internal processes and in what we impose on businesses dealing with government. We realize that it only makes sense, common sense, to attack both at the same time. We have moved aggressively to root out and abolish unnecessary regulations, rules that serve to thwart rather than advance economic prosperity and job creation. Many of my colleagues during this debate and others have talked about how red tape strangles business. There is indeed some significant evidence that red tape literally chokes the life out of business. When that happens, we all suffer.

Our government has introduced a host of changes aimed at turning this terrible situation around. It's a long process, admittedly, but we are keeping up the fight and will continue to do so. We have seen some proof that we are winning the war. Business and consumer confidence are up, so is investment, and Ontario has seen some of the most significant job growth in its history - 341,000 net new private sector jobs since September 1995, more than 260,000 of them since February 1997.

Three years ago businesses were clamouring to get out of Ontario. Now the same number or more want to get back in. They're impressed with our no-nonsense approach to business and they see an opportunity for themselves, an opportunity to be involved with one of the strongest, fastest-growing economies in the country. The bill before us represents our latest initiative to cut red tape and to stimulate growth. The red tape legislation we dealt with in the last session was a good start and there is more to come. The consumer ministry alone has already eliminated dozens of unnecessary requirements.

In the process, we've helped create better business conditions for everyone from film projectionists, who no longer have to undergo more training than pilots, to licensed establishments, which can now use credit cards to buy LCBO products. This will help improve their cash flow without promoting overconsumption.

Bill 25 builds on our red tape success story.

MCCR is proposing to streamline Ontario's regulatory environment by, among other things, amending the Land Titles Act to make the hearings process more efficient and to reduce the information required for registering power of sale documents; the Corporations Act to allow directors of for-profit corporations to hold meetings by telephone or other means of electronic communication, and directors of non-charity, not-for-profit organizations to forgo audits in certain circumstances and to buy liability insurance; the Registry Act to permit electronic payments and delivery of documents and to allow the ministry to accept notarized copies of certain documents instead of requiring the originals.

Indirectly, these measures will benefit consumers by ensuring that the businesses and organizations they deal with spend less time on paperwork and more on providing good service. But the bill also contains a number of measures of direct benefit to consumers. I'll give you two examples.

We have proposed amendments to the Real Estate and Business Brokers Act to permit the Real Estate Council of Ontario, a self-managed body in business since last year, to establish consumer protection measures such as the compensation fund. Everyone operating as a real estate agent or broker in the province will be required to pay into the fund, which will give consumers protection similar to that which they now enjoy with travel agents and motor vehicle dealers.

We are also proposing changes to the Loan Brokers Act to allow the use of cease-and-desist orders against unscrupulous operators who continue to prey on vulnerable consumers even after their conviction in court.

Of course, there's a great deal more in this bill. The changes to the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations statutes are important, but only in the context of the overall changes the government has introduced.

As I said a moment ago, we recognize that cutting red tape takes time. We are doing it in a way that ensures adequate time for everyone concerned to raise and air the necessary issues. We in this House have already given this bill eight and a half hours of our attention. But because of its importance to us as a government and to the province's business community and taxpayers, we want to do more. That is why we are sending it to the standing committee on administration of justice for clause-by-clause debate. That is the proper place for the next stage of this discussion to occur. It will give members a chance to analyse the bill in detail.

Cutting red tape is central, not just to our government's agenda but to the sustained prosperity that Ontario's businesses and taxpayers want and deserve. We want them to be able to put their energy into productive job-creating work instead of paperwork. When businesses come calling in Ontario, we want them to see the red carpet, not the red tape. The benefits of this approach are clear. The economy grows stronger, confidence and optimism reign and people believe once again in their future and that of their province.

This bill represents an important step in the fulfilling of our commitment to cut red tape and help create a more positive business climate in Ontario. So far, we've eliminated more than 500 unnecessary regulations. But cutting red tape is not a goal in and of itself. It is a means to an end. That end is a stronger, healthier, more vibrant economy, an economy that supports business, creates jobs and protects consumers. This bill, Bill 25, moves us closer to that goal.

We are proud of the work done to date and believe it will accomplish the goals we have set for ourselves and that the people of Ontario have set for us. I would like to thank my colleagues on all sides of this House who have provided valuable advice and input. I look forward to hearing more of their views when this bill comes to committee.

Mr Marcel Beaubien (Lambton): It certainly is a pleasure for me to make a few comments on Bill 25,

An Act to reduce red tape by amending or repealing certain Acts and by enacting two new Acts. Let me start by saying that Diane Francis in Maclean's magazine recently had an

article that read, "Canadians want and deserve less government and less interference in their personal lives and professional lives." That certainly refers to red tape. There is no doubt that government red tape has a stranglehold on our province and our economy. Red tape amounts to an average of 7% of a company's operating costs. In some companies the percentage is as high as 40%.

Let me give you another good example of what red tape is all about. My colleague from Kitchener-Wilmot recently gave me a chronology of a developer in his riding who is trying to develop a 70-lot subdivision. The process started on January 30, 1987. If I recall properly, today is June 23, 1998, and to this day this particular developer has not received approval. Mind you, I don't want to blame the province for all the red tape that this particular individual or this corporation has encountered. However, we have certainly played a major role.

To this day, $200,465 has been spent trying to receive approval on this 70-lot subdivision. Madam Speaker, I don't know whether that is acceptable to you, but as the

article written by Diane Francis points out, I'm sure it's not acceptable to many Ontarians. It certainly is not acceptable to me. It goes to show that red tape is a job killer in many instances.

Another point I would like to refer to is that during our deliberations debating red tape, health, safety and environment are not considered red tape, and I would like to point out that the sheer volume of unnecessary rules, regulations and government intervention does not have to impact on those three items.

There's no doubt that while the Red Tape Commission has accomplished a lot in the past two and a half years, an awful lot more remains to be done. Let's go back to what I consider was red tape in 1995 when this province was faced with a $100-billion debt. I don't want to blame any previous government, but there is no doubt that there was a good example of mismanagement, spending unwisely and creating an awful lot of regulations and legislation that were not conducive to sound economic principles.

There's no doubt that this government saw this as a major roadblock to job creation in Ontario, and that is why our government wanted to make the province open to business again and to get rid of red tape in order to create jobs.

I keep hearing that the previous government had to introduce the social contract because of a major recession in Ontario. That is true. I think we have to recognize the fact that there was a major recession. However, there are other provinces in Canada that faced the same situation and did not have a social contract. So whenever the opposition keeps talking about, "The economy is booming and that's why we are creating an awful lot of jobs in Ontario," I would like to point out that the tax cut and elimination of red tape have been motives or catalysts towards creating jobs in the province.

We have to recognize the fact that since 1995, 341,000 net new jobs have been created in Ontario. It's the fastest job creation rate in all of Canada. More Ontarians today are working than ever before in the history of Ontario. I think that speaks well of Ontarians, because I am sure that as responsible taxpayers, as responsible citizens, as responsible legislators, it's much more interesting to have people working than to have people on welfare. If we look at what's happening in British Columbia right now, there's no doubt they are suffering from the Asian flu.

However, they have raised their taxes, their employment is consequently declining and their welfare rate is rising. Again, it's good proof that by eliminating red tape and eliminating barriers, we can create a sound economic atmosphere in Ontario.

I think my colleague from Hamilton West mentioned eliminating some of the burdens, some of the obsolete regulations and a number of red tapes that we have introduced. I think that without doing this, we would not be experiencing the economic activity we are experiencing in the province.

I'd like to refer back to the bill. When we talk about amending the Public Lands Act to give the Minister of Natural Resources clear decision-making authority governing the use of crown lands based on the land use planning process, this will enable the minister to designate land uses and ensure that significant natural areas are protected. The planning process will result in the development of clear rules for land use and development in planning areas.

The forest and tourism industries in particular require greater land use certainty in order to make long-term investment decisions. I think we need a stable atmosphere that provides long-term stability. There is no doubt that, today, not only is Ontario competing with the rest of the provinces in Canada but we are competing in a global economy. As investors come into Ontario, if they find an area that does not provide stability, I ask you, why would that particular corporation or that particular individual invest in your community if you cannot provide that stability?

Eliminating red tape is also useless unless you find ways to stop it from being created in the future. It's just like being on a treadmill. It certainly is a big job and we need an awful lot of help, not only from stakeholders but from the average citizen, in order to reduce red tape.

To say that this government does not listen, well, let me tell you that I have experienced the other side of the equation. For instance, we recently conducted consultations on the one-window building permit approach. We consulted with 50 stakeholder groups over a period of three months. We wrote a draft report which was circulated to all the stakeholders for their input, and prior to finalizing the draft to the minister, we will take their input. In my opinion, that is certainly listening.

In closing, I'd like to mention that democracy, by its very nature, is about participation. It's only by hearing from the citizens of this province that our government can continue to make changes to improve our economic situation. It is only with these improvements that Ontario businesses will be able to continue to create jobs. I urge all citizens to get involved, to contact their MPPs at their constituency office and get engaged in the process.

Mr Alex Cullen (Ottawa West): Mr Speaker, I believe we do not have a quorum here.

The Acting Speaker (Mr David Tilson): Check to see if there is a quorum, Madam Clerk.

Clerk Assistant (Ms Deborah Deller): A quorum is not present, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker ordered the bells rung.

Clerk Assistant: A quorum is now present, Speaker.

The Deputy Speaker: The member for Simcoe Centre.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Simcoe Centre): I am pleased to rise today to speak about Bill 25, the Red Tape Reduction Act. The Red Tape Review Commission, which was established in 1995, has certainly satisfied its mandate in terms of looking at ways of removing red tape barriers and developing ways to prevent them in the future, with the fundamental purpose of job creation and trying to build this economy.

The first mandated accomplishment was the passage by the Legislature of 10 red tape elimination bills to simplify the government processes and improve efficiency. They made 132 specific recommendations to government to reduce and prevent red tape. They developed and coordinated implementation of the regulatory impact and competitiveness test, designed to prevent proposed regulation or legislation from introducing new barriers to job creation and better government. The government approved an extension of the commission's mandate in order for it to continue its efforts in red tape elimination and prevention.

Bill 25 is part of the process in terms of bringing about greater red tape removal. Some of the specific issues that have been dealt with in Bill 25 are designed to protect consumers. Two of the acts being amended will provide additional protection for consumers in specific areas of the marketplace.

The change to the Real Estate and Business Brokers Act will allow the administrative authority set up by the real estate industry to establish consumer protection programs such as a compensation fund in which registrants would be obliged to participate. Such compensation funds have been proven to provide important protection for consumers in such areas as travel and motor vehicle dealers.

Another amendment designed to improve consumer protection is being made to the Loan Brokers Act. This change will allow the ministry to issue cease-and-desist orders against loan brokers who, for example, continue to violate the law even when charges have been laid and the broker has been convicted under the act. This will strengthen protection for consumers by preventing unscrupulous loan brokers from continuing to take money from a consumer before the consumer has actually received the loan.

Those are important changes with respect to loan brokers and with respect to the real estate industry. Quite frankly, in my riding of Simcoe Centre and throughout Simcoe county the real estate industry has flourished because of the measures taken by this government. We were seeing the real estate industry looking for direction from the government in terms of being able to self-regulate. I think it's good news for consumers to know that there's going to be the self-regulation to deal with compensation funds and other protections, so they know where to go.

With respect to the Loan Brokers Act, it's also fundamental in terms of dealing with those safeguards, because not everyone can go to a bank, a trust company or a credit union to get funding in terms of purchasing a home or getting a line of credit or a loan. So we have to put in standards and safeguards to deal with this.

The second mandated goals of the Red Tape Commission were to continue to work with the government and stakeholders to identify unnecessary or out-of-date regulations, to implement the recommendations from its first report, to provide advice on other policy initiatives, to pursue ways to reduce the paper burden and unnecessary and costly delays and procedures, and to improve customer service by government officials. To a large extent, that has been done, definitely through the measures taken by the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations in terms of the changes they've brought about.

Also there's a challenge to members of the government, the Red Tape Commission, the business community and the public to participate in the process of identifying red tape examples and solutions. A lot has been done by this commission, and you have to commend them for taking this initiative.

The initiatives of the government in terms of dealing with the economy were not only spurred by the Red Tape Commission but also by other measures they have taken. Ontario's personal income tax rate has been cut four times since 1995. The fifth and final instalment of the 30% cut is expected to take effect on July 1. Taxpayers earning between $25,000 and $75,000 will receive 64%, almost $3 billion, in savings from the tax cut every year. In my riding of Simcoe Centre, and I should say throughout Simcoe county, there will be $114 million more to be spent in that county in terms of taxpayers looking after their own needs and not the government looking after theirs.

Since the election of this government, 66 tax cuts have been implemented or announced during the mandate. There were 36 in the 1998 budget alone. This is part of the approach to try to help business cope in terms of making sure they can fulfil their role with respect to creating jobs, something that was taken away from them by the previous government, which was strictly anti-business in terms of the measures they took. One of the measures by this government was to eliminate the employer health tax for the first $300,000 of payroll. That will be up to $400,000 as of July 1, 1998.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): On a point of order, Madam Speaker: There's no quorum in the House.

The Deputy Speaker: Clerk, could you check and see if there's a quorum, please.

Clerk Assistant: A quorum is not present, Speaker.

The Deputy Speaker ordered the bells rung.

Clerk Assistant: A quorum is now present, Speaker.

The Deputy Speaker: Member for Simcoe Centre.

Mr Tascona: I'm pleased to continue with respect to discussing Bill 25, the Red Tape Reduction Act. What I was discussing before was dealing with not only red tape measures but also tax cuts that have helped Ontarians create jobs. Cutting workers' compensation premiums by 5% certainly is a significant measure in terms of helping employers, as is cutting the small business corporate tax rate in half, to 4.75% over the next eight years.

The result of this is that 341,000 net new private sector jobs have been created in Ontario since September 1995. From February 1997 to February 1998 there have been 265,000 net new private sector jobs created. That's the largest 12-month gain in Ontario's history.

Ontario's budget deficit for 1997-98 was $5.2 billion. That's less than half the $11.3-billion deficit projected for 1995-96. The deficit is projected to be eliminated by the year 2000-01.

With respect to the economy and fiscal management, that demonstrates that this government certainly is a very good corporate manager with respect to creating jobs and creating the environment for the creation of jobs, and also has the fiscal awareness and the fiscal management skills to make sure that we not only manage the economy but also manage the government in a very responsible manner. I think the three years of achievement of this government that have come forth obviously show that we are good fiscal managers and know how to deal with the economy, something that has been lacking through the previous two governments.

I would say there's a lot more work to be done; a lot more work to be done with respect to the Red Tape Commission, with respect to dealing with fine-tuning the economy to make sure that the job creation environment is promoted. I think a lot of the measures being taken through the Ministry of Tourism will lead to that, because tourism is one of the big industries that has been forgotten in the last 10 years. This government is making sure that's an important mandate in terms of promoting Ontario.

You just can't sit back in this era of international competition and say, "We're just going to sit back and be an isolationist." Ontario has to get out there and promote what the lifestyle is here and promote the best features.

That's very important for my riding of Simcoe Centre, because what we're dealing with is an area that depends a lot on the tourism dollar, not only for fishing, but in terms of skiing and other outdoor activities it is very fundamental. That has to be taken seriously and this government is taking it seriously with respect to the moneys that are going in there to promote tourism.

I certainly look forward to the chambers of commerce and also the municipalities within Simcoe Centre and throughout the province to make sure the tourism program and the strategy that is coming forth promotes Ontario, because that can only result in one thing: more jobs and a better lifestyle for Ontarians.

There's a lot more work to be done and the work that has to be done has to focus on job creation. There are a lot of areas that are getting in the way of not only job creation but also worker choice and in terms of how companies should be operating.

One area is the Employment Standards Act. There's a lot of duplicate legislation out there, not only with respect to the Employment Standards Act in terms of what it sets out. It sets out the minimum standards of employment conditions for workers in this province, but there are other pieces of legislation out there that have conflicting standards. What we should have are uniform minimum standards. For example, the needle trades act sets out a different level of standards for the particular workers it covers. So there's a duplication of legislation when you're dealing with minimum standards and that has to be addressed.

There's also another area that has to be addressed in terms of people getting on with their lives and trying to do the best for their families. Under the Employment Standards Act there's no choice in overtime compensation. If someone wants to work overtime or if an employer wants someone to work overtime, the worker basically has no choice in terms of making an arrangement. They either take overtime pay, where they work in excess of 44 hours a week, or the employer has a lesser standard in terms of overtime pay. They still have to be put in a situation where they have to receive the overtime rate.

A lot of workers out there and a lot of employers would like to be able to say, "We can have a pay-in-lieu situation," and that gives greater flexibility to the employer. It also increases the lifestyle flexibility for workers. That's something we should be looking at in terms of making sure there is choice in overtime compensation.

Also, another area that should have been looked at in the past and has been looked at by this government is recognizing greater benefits beyond the act. We should be looking at the entire compensation package that an employer provides to its workers, whether they're union or non-union.

At the end of the day, if the entire compensation package is better than the standards provided under the act, then that should be something that should be permitted. We shouldn't be living in straitjackets, where you have to live by this standard and that standard. That doesn't allow for flexibility. That doesn't allow Ontario to compete on the world stage. That's something that should be looked at in the future.

Also, we should be looking at dealing with exemptions with respect to who's exempt from overtime, to create greater flexibility in an operation. Currently, it's only supervisors and other designated categories within an employer that are allowed not to be paid overtime. For a supervisor, it has to be someone who only supervises. We know in this day and age that's something that's not realistic, that someone would be out there just supervising. We know that everyone is working and contributing to the situation. So I think we have to look at some specific type of workers and some specific type of industries to make sure that works.

I think the other area we have to look at in terms of stimulating growth, especially in the employment area, is simplifying and eliminating overtime permits in terms of the hours of work. We're not talking about changing the standard of 44 hours of overtime or 48 hours being the maximum work week; we're looking at situations where permits are not required when we're dealing with an emergency situation or a situation where there's urgent work needed or accidents involving perishable goods that can obviously and significantly affect an employer's operations.

There are already provisions in there in terms of getting these permits, but they are very detailed and cumbersome and not realistic in terms of the everyday work world. If you're dealing with accidents or urgent work or perishable goods, you should have a situation where you can work through that. You shouldn't have to deal with a situation where you have to have a major crisis and then look for your permit. You should be able to work within the rules and not have to go to the government every time you need to be able to handle a situation that is very important to your business.

There are other areas that should be looked at. Certainly in terms of the Labour Relations Act, one of the areas that's very important is to allow for double-breasting of companies. Currently under subsection 1(4) of the Labour Relations Act, which was brought in in 1975, if you're certified by a union and you're unfortunately in a situation where your business goes bankrupt, if you decide to start up that company again you're going to be unionized when you start up. That's very unfair.

If you have to deal with the market forces of your business and you couldn't survive under the union relationship and you've gone bankrupt, then that should not be a situation where, for the rest of your working life, if you want to be in that particular industry you're always going to be unionized no matter what success you have with respect to your business. That's something that should be addressed in terms of allowing an operator that has been unionized and has gone under through the market forces to be able to start up their business again and not be automatically unionized, which is now provided under the Labour Relations Act.

It is also dealing with sanctions for unnecessary work stoppages. Currently when you're dealing with wildcat strikes, you can go to the labour relations board and you can seek a declaration to have that unlawful strike stopped and get a cease-and-desist order from the labour relations board. That's fine in terms of stopping the unlawful activity, but you need to have in place specific sanctions to make sure that activity stops.

Specific sanctions would certainly go a long way to dealing with the problems that companies have when they're not involved in an unlawful strike or, because it's brought about through political action, where their operations are shut down. There should be sanctions there. If a union wants to take action with respect to an unlawful strike activity, they should be punished in terms of monetary sanctions, in terms of the activity they've brought about that has resulted in damages to the company that has been affected.

I think that's a very fair way of dealing with something. If you're going to do something that's unlawful, you should be responsible for your actions. Unfortunately, the act is not designed to deal with that type of activity because trade unions are essentially private clubs. They're only given statutory authority by a statute such as the Labour Relations Act to bring them the statutory right to organize and to create trade unions and to operate under the Labour Relations Act.

By the same token, what should be in place is to make sure that they're responsible for their actions if they decide to take unlawful strike activity. I think that would be a very positive message to be sent out there to the business community in terms of them being affected by unlawful strike activity.

There are also changes that should be addressed with respect to the Occupational Health and Safety Act. The Occupational Health and Safety Act was brought in around 1978. There have been piecemeal legislative changes to that over the years, depending on the government, but there hasn't been a wholesale change of that act in terms of what are the fundamental situations we should be dealing with to make it more relevant to today's workforce, to today's economic environment, and to make Ontario more competitive. That's something that the Red Tape Commission should be looking at and focusing on some specific areas.

One of them is to eliminate unnecessary provisions that are just essentially redundant under the statute.

Also, they should be looking at introducing codes of practice by a particular industry. Right now it's so generic, it's very difficult for industries to understand what they're required to do under the particular regulations, and in some situations it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to be doing what is being prescribed under the legislation. That's one area where I think we have to look at codes of practice for each industry in making sure that the Occupational Health and Safety Act, which is designed to be

an act for internal responsibility, is relevant to the workplace. That's something that is sorely lacking because of the fact that the act has not been changed fundamentally since 1978.

But also we should be looking at undertaking non-legislative changes in terms of targeting the enforcement, in terms of how inspectors should enforce in the workplace, in terms of what their powers are and in terms of making sure that there's immediate impact with respect to enforcement under the act.

Under the current system you can have a situation where someone is charged under the act and they don't get to trial for another year or so, or if they have breached an order, there's a time limit with respect to bringing charges under the act, and there could be a one-year time limitation before they bring the charges under the act, and what's the immediate impact with respect to dealing with health and safety.

There should be immediate impact with respect to if you break the law, the enforcement mechanisms are in place. It doesn't necessarily have to mean going to court. It can mean simply a ticket system, to make sure that you get your point across. That doesn't apply just to employers; it obviously applies to the workers at the workplace, making sure that they comply with the legislation, because it's internal responsibility; it's the workers, it's the supervisors and it's also the employers that are responsible to make sure that the system works in a non-union environment. If it's a union environment, obviously the union has a stake in making sure that the system works.

Also we should look for clarification and simplification of the language in the act and have consistency throughout. Right now, we're dealing with promoting health and safety in the workplace and also with changes to the workplace safety act that has to be brought in line with respect to dealing with occupational health and safety, because the fundamental premise is an internal responsibility system under the act. We have to make sure that we're promoting safe workplace practices through a specific mechanism, not only through the Occupational Health and Safety Act but also through the workplace safety act.

That's something that has to be fundamentally looked at when we're reviewing the Occupational Health and Safety Act to make sure that we have the best system in place.

The changes under Bill 25, which I have focused on in terms of dealing with other changes that could be put into place with respect to removing red tape and bringing about recommendations: The actual Bill 25 has a very specific area that it has addressed through different ministries, and that is the beauty of the way this commission has worked. It has dealt with specific ministries and making sure that they are addressing the needs and the concerns not only of the ministries, but also of the stakeholders out there.

There are a lot of areas that have been addressed throughout this, as mentioned by the member for Lambton and also the member for Hamilton West, giving the reasons why red tape is being eliminated and giving examples with respect to the Land Titles Act, the Corporations Act and also dealing with other business changes through the Registry Act. Those changes are long overdue to make sure that the government isn't putting in place a system where they're getting in the way of this type of business activity and also charging fees for almost anything that's going to happen in the real estate area.

One knows it's expensive enough to buy a home, but to put more hurdles in the way of homeowners in terms of the red tape that has to be dealt with at the registry office and the Land Titles Act and also to put in place fees for all of these makes it very cumbersome for home buyers.

One other area I'd like to take a look at with respect to the changes under this is the Liquor Licence Act. This is a very important area in terms of the process if anyone has ever dealt with getting a liquor licence. Certainly, for someone who wants to get a liquor licence, it has to be proven that it's in the public interest for them to be able to get a liquor licence. It's a very touchy issue, because obviously there are people out there who don't believe that they want a licensed establishment within their community.

Obviously they're against this particular operation in their area because there are too many licensed operators or because they're against liquor and licensed establishments per se, and that's basically what they're about.

Speaking from experience, because I've been involved in that process, it's very difficult. These are very charged hearings. What you find is that everyone takes a side. It's very difficult for the people who have to decide on this issue because of the situation becoming so highly charged in terms of where the licensed establishments should be and trying to create a proper balance within the area. But at the same time, the Liquor Licence Board of Ontario, in administering the Liquor Licence Act, has a very important job exercising its mandate, protecting the public interest with respect to the awarding of licences.

There's a right to have a liquor licence because you have a process under a statute by which you can apply. It's not viewed as a privilege. There's a right to have that licence as long as you satisfy the legislation and it's in the public interest to have that licence. One of the changes we've brought about in the amendments is in terms of the Liquor Licence Board's ability to refuse requests for public meetings when there is a complaint about a potential licensee, because inevitably there's going to be a complaint with respect to this type of activity, even from people who may not live in the area, just because they are against alcohol.

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