March 15,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLI No.

The House met at 9:00 a.m.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question

for the Minister of Education. I must say, I have always had the greatest

respect for the honesty and integrity of the Minister. But the last couple of

days, in particular the answer the Minister gave me in this House yesterday in

relation to the University's operating budget, are beginning to make me wonder.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RIDEOUT: Yesterday in the House in reaction to the

question I asked him about the University's Budget, the Minister said this and I

quote from yesterday's Hansard - this is the Minister speaking: `As I said

before', and before meant before the budgetary freeze, `the increase was $5.5

million of the $12 million. But when we decided to freeze, of course, we took

away $4,859,000. So that explains the figures that Dr. May has. So it is

$140,000 of the $7 million that they requested on operation other than

salaries.' Now this is the Minister's quote from yesterday.

Now, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the wage freeze

for everybody, including the University, was announced in the Budget that was

read in this House on Thursday, March 7, how could the Minister of Education go

before the public the next day, on Friday March 8, and state the following? Let

me quote the Minister's press statement. The Minister said, 'Memorial's

operating grant will basically be increased by $5.5 million in 1991-92 when

compared with 1990-91. This operating grant increase of $5.5 million falls short

of the University's projected additional requirements.'

Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to ask the Minister where is the

honesty and integrity in that statement, when the Minister sat in this House the

day before and heard his colleague, the Minister of Finance, announce a wage

freeze for the University?

AN HON. MEMBER: Shame!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of ways of

looking at this. I think yesterday I agreed, and I read the presentation by Dr.

May at his news conference. He said Memorial has a $7 million to $8 million

problem, and I confirmed that yesterday in my comments in answer to the hon.

Member's question.

Mr. Speaker, I went through the statistics yesterday,

including salaries. If the salary freeze had not been imposed, the salary

increase would have been $5.5 million. Seeing that we imposed the salary freeze,

we then, of course, reduced the operating budget by $4,859,000. But I admit, Mr.

Speaker, that the University still has a $7 million to $8 million problem. They

asked for $12 million; they have a $7 million to $8 million problem and Dr. May

has indicated that half of that problem will be solved through student fees and

increases in various other fees, and the other half, Mr. Speaker, through cuts

in University operations.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the Minister did not come close

to answering the question. He knows that and the House knows it, and I would

assume that people who are covering this House know it. But let me ask the

Minister this. Does the Minister expect this House and the people of this

Province to believe that the day after the Budget was delivered in this House,

and the Minister was here and he is a member of Cabinet anyway, does he expect

us to believe that he did not know that the University's operating Budget for

next year would increase not by $5.5 million as he went out and told the people

of this Province the day after the Budget came down, but by $140,000? Did the

Minister not know that, Mr. Speaker? That is the question.

MR. TOBIN: Sure he did. Sure, he knew it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, in my comments to the press, if

the hon. Member had had somebody present, I explained that if there had not been

a salary freeze and Memorial's request for $13 million, Mr. Speaker, if there

had not -

AN HON. MEMBER: All lies (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I said if there had not been a

salary freeze and Memorial's request for $12 million to $13 million, the amount

that the Government would have added to the operational Budget of the

university, including salaries, would have been $5.5 million. I stand by these

figures, Mr. Speaker, and I went through them yesterday. I thought the hon.

Member has his sums right and I told the press that, and I will repeat the same

thing, Mr. Speaker. But with the frozen Budget the increase was offset largely

by the reduction in the amount of salaries that Government will give to the

University.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a

supplementary.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, even the affable Minister of

Education does not have any truths written over his face this morning. Now, Mr.

Speaker, here is what the Minister said to the press: `Memorial's operating

grant will basically increase by $5.5 million in 1991/1992.' He did not say

anything about what happened because of the freeze or anything else. That is

what he said. Now, Mr. Speaker, will the Minister tell the House the truth, that

in fact what happened on Friday, March 8, was that the Minister read a statement

to the press that had been prepared for him before the Budget was brought down

in this House and the Minister did not have the honesty and integrity to change

that statement to reflect the reality of the Budget that was brought down here

the day before? Is that not the truth of the matter, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: The brief answer, Mr. Speaker, is no.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. WARREN: No, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fogo.

MR. WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the

Minister responsible for Works, Services and Transportation. In the 1989 Budget

Speech the Minister said Government is committed to the provision of improved

ferry service to Newfoundlanders residing in island communities. In view of the

most recent announcements, can the Minister still stand by this 1989 statement?

And furthermore, can he explain why the only positive thing he has done in ferry

transportation, the lowering of rates, has not applied to commercial as well as

regular vehicles?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: First of all, Mr. Speaker, we are certainly

committed to improving the ferry service to the island communities of

Newfoundland. We have done it; we are working towards it and we will continue to

do that. The Member will remember that when we changed the Change Islands-Fogo

service this year and put on the one operation, we improved the service - we

gave them an extra trip. And I have letters from the committees down there

saying how happy they are with the service they have.

The commercial rates were reduced. When we looked at them, we

reduced them. They are under review now and maybe they will be again, but I

certainly cannot say so at this time. We have reduced them, we have done what we

set out to do by evening and spreading out the base so that the people who drive

back and forth, the people who use it every day, now have the same cost to go

the miles required on the ferry as they would if they were driving over the

road. And there will be a reduction come in on April 1 in ferry rates again.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fogo.

MR. WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that this Liberal Government has already

cancelled the dedicated ferry service it announced, except for three months of

the year for Fogo Island and Change Islands, and it has deferred the

construction of the ferry it had already announced, how can the Minister make

the assertion he just did, that you are committed to the improvement when you

have already downgraded it? Will the Minister cancel the decision that has been

made and begin the construction of the Fogo Island ferry?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting, you know,

when the people who live in Fogo have sent a letter to me saying they are

perfectly happy with the one ferry boat and they are getting four trips a day

now compared to the three trips they were getting before. We used our heads and

imagination in the Department and we gave the people a better service than they

were getting before. As for the construction of the ferry, we were forced to

make some budget cuts. We think that sometime in the future we will carry on

with the building of a dedicated icebreaker to provide that service. However,

right now we have to use the service we have. We have not cancelled it, we have

put it on hold because we were forced to, as we were forced to do many things in

the Budget we brought in this year. Have no fear, the people are going to get

the service. As a matter of fact, they even admit it is a better service than

they were getting before.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, based on what the Minister has

said or has not said, I would like to put a question to the Minister of

Development, because the inaction of this Government as it relates to the

cancellation of the ferry will not just have a devastating effect on the Fogo

area, it will also affect the work force of the Marystown Shipyard and the Burin

Peninsula, which has the highest unemployment rate in Newfoundland and the

highest in the history of that area. I would now like to ask the Minister of

Development, Mr. Speaker, what assurance he can give to employees who are

presently working at the Marystown Shipyard that they will not receive layoff

notices this year. And when he goes to Marystown on Tuesday, and I am sure he

has the courage to appear before the 800 unionized employees who have requested

the presence of himself, the Premier and the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation, when he goes before these people, what assurance can he give

them that they will find employment in the Government-owned Marystown Shipyard

over the next several months?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development.

MR. FUREY: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I do not set my

agenda by other people's agenda. Ministers have meetings arranged weeks in

advance, sometimes months in advance. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, this Government

feels very badly about deferring the construction of the icebreaker at

Marystown. The Minister of Transportation, the operative word was deferral.

Everybody in this Province knows the budgetary position this Government

inherited - we inherited $5.3 billion worth of debt. When we started to write a

budget we had to find $527 million just to pay the interest on the debt. This

debt was not accumulated overnight, Mr. Speaker, it was accumulated over the

last 20 years, with the Conservative Government. But let me say this to the

people of Marystown. It was this Government - this Government - which signed the

Hibernia Agreement, this Government which put into place -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, it was this Government which

effected and caused the construction of the $40 million fabrication yard at

Marystown which will look after many, many people, it was this Government, Mr.

Speaker, which put its 25 per cent despite the restraint we are under, despite

the fact that money is tight, despite the fact that we are under difficult

circumstances, it was this Government which put its 25 per cent, its $8 million

in place for those workers at Marystown.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I just wanted to remind the Minister that he may have been

drifting away from the main point of the question.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin Placentia -

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the

Minister that it was this Member and that Member, and the hon. John Crosbie and

the Member for Mount Pearl who announced and put in place the $40 million

fabrication centre for the Marystown Shipyard.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I just want to again remind hon. Members, and I cannot be

doing this all the time, that when a Member is into a supplementary, the Member

should proceed to get to the supplementary.

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would now like to put a

supplementary question to the Minister of Education, the honest Minister of

Education, Mr. Speaker. Now that the Minister of Development has admitted that

he has nothing in place for the work force of the Marystown Shipyard - the

Minister of Development is about to preside over the closing of the Marystown

Shipyard as the new construction centre, the present Minister of Development -

let me ask the Minister of Education whether or not he has looked at all options

in his budget when he talks about education cuts, and whether he has been honest

with the people of Newfoundland? And will he now abandon his foolish and

politically motivated attitude toward losing several jobs on the Burin

Peninsula, costing the Government a fortune? Will he now announce to this House

that the headquarters for the Eastern Community College will remain in Burin?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, this past year the Government

faced some very difficult financial problems. We dealt with them up front, and

they were difficult decisions. One thing we have to do, Mr. Speaker, is

rationalize a lot of our programmes, and last year in the White paper we believe

that the Government began a rationalization of the post-secondary system:

redefining boundaries, combining institutions, reducing central office staff,

reducing the organization and the management, in some cases, of colleges.

Mr. Speaker, in that process we redefined some boundaries.

And it seems reasonable that when you have a college that covers the Burin

Peninsula, Clarenville, Bonavista, Placentia, Carbonear, it seems reasonable I

am sure the hon. Member will admit, to put the centre for that college in

Clarenville. We did what was right educationally, Mr. Speaker. And I do not want

to be political here. I try not to be very political. But when we announced our

decision to put the headquarters in Clarenville it is amazing how many people

called us and said, I wonder why it was put on the Burin Peninsula? Why the

extra cost of travelling for the central office staff from that area of the

Province to cover Bonavista? Why originally wasn't the centre put in

Clarenville? We did what was right, Mr. Speaker, and we are going to continue to

do that.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the Minister that

centralization does not have the same meaning for me as it does for him. I

believe in rural Newfoundland. Now, let me ask the Minister how much money it

costs to have the present headquarters for the Eastern Community College for the

next five years on the lease, how much that is, how much the next lease will

cost for Clarenville, how much it will cost to move the people, and then tell us

how much it will cost for the residents from rural Newfoundland to stay in

residence next year because of your inaction and political motivation, and

personal attacks on the people of the Burin Peninsula?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I will table these figures later

on in the year. We have an implementation committee rationalizing the whole

system and I will provide the hon. Member with this data. Let me say one

additional thing, Mr. Speaker, when we redefined the boundaries we closed two

offices, one happened to be in the district served by the hon. Member for

Carbonear and the other hon. Members who happened to be on this side of the

House, Mr. Speaker, so it is not easy for them either. It was not easy for them,

but we did, and Clarenville happened to be served by a Member on the opposite

side of the House at that point in time. If you ever want any evidence that we

do what is right educationally and not politically you have it, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation. Will the Minister tell this House how many positions will be

eliminated from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation by the

heartless Budget brought down on March 7 by the Minister of Finance?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: As I understand, Mr. Speaker, the number of

full time positions that are going to be eliminated are twenty-one permanent,

and, I believe, twenty part-time. These people have been notified now; all of

them have received their notices.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister tell this

House how many of these positions relate to the general service agreement, and

how many relate to the MOS agreement? And, is the Minister concentrating on

laying off all his employees in the MOS agreement because they do not have the

same rights of recall and rights of redundancy as do workers in the general

service agreement, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: I do not have the breakdown, Mr. Speaker,

but it is a question I will get the answer for and get back to him.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I find that strange since

this is the most important issue in this Province and the Minister does not have

these figures for his Department.

Mr. Speaker, how many of the eliminated positions are

security technicians, security guards or security work persons? How many

management positions relating to these security guards will be laid off, Mr.

Speaker? And does the Minister realize that by installing the electronic

security systems which he is doing in this building, he is not only eliminating

jobs in Newfoundland, but he is creating jobs in Halifax, Nova Scotia?

AN HON. MEMBER: Go on!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, that is an interesting question

that the Member for Kilbride asked, because what we are doing now in automating

the system is carrying out a policy that his Government had started in 1988.

AN HON. MEMBER: Go on!

MR. GILBERT: The fact is we put to public tender, the

contract for the automated system. It matters, I suppose, little where it is

operated from. You could operate it from Mars for that matter. You know, as long

as it is done.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. GILBERT: But I mean it is the public tender situation

and the automated system has worked. We are getting the security. The same

security that we had -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Order, please!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GILBERT: The security system is in place. We will be

working towards it and eventually most of the buildings in the Province will be

covered by the automated security system, and we think it is a much more

efficient and effective system.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to point out to the Minister: Is the

Minister aware, Mr. Speaker, that in the optional spending in his Department,

optional spending only for supplies, a one per cent cut in that would create

sixteen jobs? And is the Minister aware that his optional spending in Purchase

Services, one-tenth of 1 per cent would have saved seventeen jobs, Mr. Speaker?

Is the Minister aware that if he reduced the optional spending in property,

furnishings and equipment by 1 per cent he could have saved twenty-one jobs? And

is the Minister aware that if he cut by 1 per cent the travel of his Department

he could have saved three jobs for a total of forty-seven jobs?

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, you know, that is a fine, fine

question. And I could say the to the Member for Kilbride that if we had not

spent $5 million on this building we are in right now we could have saved a few

more jobs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. RIDEOUT: You did not have to spend it either.

MR. SIMMS: Go on to Mars, boy! Why do you not check out

Mars? You know more about Mars than you know about Newfoundland.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister responsible for Forestry and

Agriculture. In view of the fact that the Minister had the

section of the Task

Force on Agri-Foods pertaining to the hog industry in the Province in early

January, and the full and entire Task Force report two to three weeks before the

Budget was brought down, and in view of some of the actions taken by the

Minister in his Department in the Budget Speech, could the Minister tell the

House if the Task Force on Agri-Foods recommended the closing of the swine

station on the west coast of the Province and a decrease in funding to the Farm

Loan Board?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and

Agriculture.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the recommendations of the task

force itself is now in the process of being analyzed by officials and will be

ready very shortly, I would think. It will probably set a record for the time in

which a major task force report was made public. But sometime hopefully -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FLIGHT: Sooner rather than later the task force

report will be made public and the hon. Member opposite will have a copy and the

industry will have a copy and all his questions with regards to the

recommendations in the task force report will be made.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley, a

supplementary.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that what their

task force did not recommend was that they would be all shut down by the time

the report comes out.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODFORD: But anyway, Mr. Speaker, another

supplementary. Why did the Minister tell the Chairman of the Task Force on

Agri-Foods that he could release the report to the industry at the same time he

gave it to Government? And why did he renege on this promise?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and

Agriculture.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware - I have to

accept at least what the hon. Member is saying. I am not aware for argument's

sake that I made any particular commitments to the Chairman of Agri-Foods. The

Member says: why did I tell the task force Chairman that he could release the -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. FLIGHT: Well, maybe the Member might want to provide

the House with how he is aware of that particular information.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like the

Minister to confirm this categorically, because the Chairman of the task force

for fourteen months has been going around the Province speaking to agricultural

associations, development associations, chambers of commerce, and telling them

in no uncertain terms that they would be given the report the same time that it

would be given to Government.

Now would the Minister confirm categorically today in this

House if he told the Chairman of the task force that he could release the report

at the same time he would give it to the industry, the same time as he gave it

to Government?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and

Agriculture.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I can confirm that the Chairman

of the task force has been going around this Province this past year speaking to

various groups, and doing a great job, I might say. But, Mr. Speaker, I would

say to the hon. Member that any conversations - and I had many conversations

with the Chairman of the task force over the years - those conversations were

conversations taking place between myself and the Chairman and will stay that

way.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley, final

supplementary.

MR. WOODFORD: Final supplementary. Mr. Speaker. Would the

Minister then agree with me that all planning for development of agriculture in

the Province has been put on hold, and that all different commodity groups in

the Province pertaining to agriculture have had funding held up through the Farm

Loan Board and so on? And because of the slap in the face, as far as I am

concerned, to the members of the task force, would the Minister now, within the

next few days, release this report?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and

Agriculture.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm, nor should I,

nor would - nothing has been put on hold, Mr. Speaker. The task force report

took roughly a year to finish, which was a record in itself, when you look at

the wide-ranging report we have. The Government has not had the report yet a

full month to analyze and work out both the cost implications and implementation

implications of a report that is almost 400 pages thick. I mean, it is

(Inaudible), Mr. Speaker, for the hon. Member to be standing here saying that we

have had that report any undue length of time - less than a month, Mr. Speaker.

As I told the Member the report will be made public sooner rather than later,

but when it is right to do so and when the Government is confident that they can

deal with the issues in the report.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to

the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Because of the Federal input

in transportation as it pertains to monies from roads to rails, will the

Minister tell the hon. House, what is the status - there are a lot of people out

there asking -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. PARSONS: - what is the status of the Outer Ring Road?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, the Outer Ring Road is included

in the $405 million -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I just find the general noise level a little bit too high. I

can barely hear what the Minister is saying. So I ask hon. Members please, to

try to keep the noise level down.

The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, the Outer Ring Road is included

in the Roads for Rail Agreement, as the Member for St. John's East Extern

pointed out. That Agreement is made up of $800 million and $405 million of it

was included for the major highway structure in Newfoundland, the Trans-Canada

Highway. Included in that, the Outer Ring Road was one of the jobs that would

have to be done. We have said that the Outer Ring Road is there, we recognize

that it is a part of the Agreement. And we have said, Mr. Speaker, that we will

review it each year as we talk to the Federal Government and we make the plans

to spend this money over the thirteen years, and we will certainly review it.

And as we feel that the priority comes up for the outer Ring Road to be included

in the spending for that year, I will be only too happy to tell the hon. Member

when we make that decision.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to

a new Minister, Mr. Speaker. There is so much emphasis being placed on waste

materials - liquid and solid - and in view of the initiative taken by the

Province of Ontario in reducing their solid waste by 50 per cent I believe in

ten years, I want to ask the Minister of Environment and Lands, is the Minister

aware of, and can he give us a ball park figure, of the amount of unrecycled

waste that is produced by the Provincial Government offices in the run of a

month?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and

Lands.

MR. KELLAND: I don't think I can give an accurate figure,

Mr. Speaker, until I have checked the Opposition offices, but I can tell the

hon. Member that I do not know how much waste is generated in everybody's

office. We are in correspondence now with the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation, and we have sent him the letters, and so on, to establish a

recycling program of the materials in the building. As to the exact quantity, I

could not give him the figure.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the same

Minister: isn't it true that on November 23, 1990 the Minister announced a Round

Table on the environment and the economy? This Round Table was highlighted again

in the Speech from the Throne. Can the Minister confirm that the members of the

Round Table have never met, and can the Minister explain why this is the case?

They have not had one meeting.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and

Lands.

MR. KELLAND: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can confirm that the

Round Table has not yet met. That is not to say, however, that the Government

has not been in constant contact with all members and in constant contact with

the chairperson. The problem has been, up to now, a budget reconsideration, Mr.

Speaker. We now have the funding in the 1991-92 Budget to carry out the work of

the Round Table. The other problem was a logistics one in getting all the

members available at one time to have the initial meeting. We had attempted to

have it before the end of the fiscal year. That now does not seem possible, Mr.

Speaker, as very shortly into the new fiscal year we will have our initial set

up meeting.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired.

Answers to Questions

For which Notice has been Given

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Member for Grand

Falls stood towards the end of the day and raised a pressing matter concerning

one of the layoffs in Grand Falls and it was concerning an engineer at the Grand

Falls campus. He raised concern about safety when this gentleman was laid off.

He quoted some of the regulations and stuff like that. Anyhow the Grand Falls

campus holds the status of a guarded plant and the extended sides in accordance

with the regulations that are contained in this Act. It allows for the

Department to have the boiler-room equipment checked by a watchman or a

maintenance repairer when the required power engineer is away from the building

and we have a letter here that was sent from the Department of Health and Safety

to the Department of Works and Services in 1986 and it says: For heating plants

located in District Vocational Schools rated between 3,000 kilowatts and 4,000

kilowatts, one fourth class power engineer is required. However, in this case,

the boiler-room equipment shall be checked by the watchman during the rounds

when the power engineer is away from the building. The boiler shall be equipped

with fail safe devices as required by regulation 52, boiler pressure vessel and

compressed act regulation 83. Now it is covered under 51 and the operative word

is, that you have one power engineer 'in charge of'; so what we have in Grand

Falls with the layoff, is that the gentleman across the street in the Government

building has the qualifications and he will be in contact with the watchman who

is in charge of the vocational school and he will be making periodic checks; so

according to the information, the best information we have, yes, we are

operating within the regulation and the gentleman will be laid off and it will

be controlled by the one gentleman who is there and can control both areas.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, Committee of Supply, Bill No. 17.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of

Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Grand Bank.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Chairman, I rise to speak to this

request for the granting of certain sums to Her Majesty, the Supplementary Bill

that is asking the Legislature to grant the sum of $20,943,200. Having browsed

through the subheads and expenditures, I must say there is not too much a person

can object to in the request, it is pretty well for social reasons. Having said

that, I want to refer to the answer the Minister of Education gave the Member

for Burin - Placentia West this morning when he talked about relocating the

headquarters of the Eastern Community College. The Minister said he wanted to

set the headquarters up in a central location because of travel. Now I do not

know how much the Minister thought out his answer, because regardless of at what

campus location the headquarters is situated, and all the rest who have to go to

meetings of that particular community college have to travel consequently, so if

you calculate the travel requirements, it is going to come out about equal. I

mean, those in Clarenville now have to travel to Salt Pond, and those in

Bonavista travel to Salt Pond, and if the headquarters was located in Bonavista,

those in Clarenville would travel to Bonavista and those in Burin would travel

to Bonavista. So where the Minister thinks he is going to save money on travel,

as he suggested, by making that kind of arrangement, I do not know.

A central location is not going to do anything to save money;

it is not going to do a thing educationally for the students in the system, not

one iota. The Minister of Education has done it, as the Member for Burin -

Placentia West said, for strictly political reasons. I think it is really

regrettable that the decision was made in the first place, but it is even more

regrettable now in light of last Thursday's Budget, where Government has

devastated the educational system in this Province, that the Minister of

Education is still willing to spend unnecessary dollars. He is going to lay off

teachers, he is going to lay off people in school board offices, he is going to

lay off people at the community colleges - about 100 in the community college

system of this Province - he is going to lay off in excess of 100 at Memorial

University of Newfoundland, and this Minister still insists on spending

unnecessary money to relocate a headquarters from Salt Pond to Clarenville.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), too.

MR. MATTHEWS: I know you are. You are closing Carbonear.

Even if you had closed Salt Pond and kept Carbonear open. But you are not doing

that, you are closing Carbonear and you are relocating Salt Pond. What you are

doing does not make any sense. You are laying off people in the system.

DR. WARREN: You do not have it right.

MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, yes I do have it right. It is the

Minister who has it wrong. Just as wrong as you were with your press statement

of a few days ago, when you said you were going to give the university $5.5

million additional dollars in operating and you gave them $140,000. So you

cannot get anything correct. I think you are making a very serious mistake, with

the hardship that is going to be placed on the educational system of this

Province, to still insist on moving that headquarters and the staff from Salt

Pond to Clarenville. It is a waste of money. And when thousands of people in the

public service of this Province are being laid off, to see a Government still

insist on doing those kinds of politically motivated things makes one wonder.

And they laugh. When the initial decision was made to locate

a headquarters for Eastern Community College, there were three possible

locations. The decision was made and it was put in Salt Pond. There was nothing

political about it. At the time it was made, Bonavista South was represented by

a Progressive Conservative Member, Trinity North, where Clarenville is located,

was represented by a Progressive Conservative Member and a Member of the

Cabinet, and Burin - Placentia West and Grand Bank were represented by

Progressive Conservative Members. So how can they say that it was politically

motivated, to not put it in a PC district? They were all PC districts at the

time. But what we see now - and the Premier shakes his head. Well, you can shake

it all you like. Since you took office in this Province you have been intent on

destroying the economy of the Burin Peninsula: You have closed up two cottage

hospitals; you have devastated the Marystown Shipyard; you have closed down the

RCMP office in Burin; you are moving the headquarters of Eastern Community

College; you have totally concurred with the closure of the Grand Bank fish

plant, and on and on the list goes. You can shake your head all you like, but

you will shake it more when the time comes - you will shake it more.

AN HON. MEMBER: Darn right.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Chairman, as I said when I began,

Supplementary Supply enables you to talk about anything because it is a

budgetary item. I asked the Minister of Health a question yesterday on health

care on the Burin Peninsula and he could not tell me what the operating budget

was for the Burin Peninsula Health Care Board. All he told me about was the

capital funding this year for St. Lawrence and Grand Bank. But I want to say to

the Minister of Health and to the Premier that you are not giving St. Lawrence

and Grand Bank anything extra. You are trying to make up for closing down two

full-fledged hospitals, you are trying to make up for cutting about 115 jobs and

for reducing health care services in the community served by Grand Bank and St.

Lawrence. That is what you are doing, but you stood yesterday and tried to make

everyone believe that you are giving them something extra. You are giving them

nothing.

Now having said that, as I have said publicly, the only

bright spot in the Budget for the Burin - Peninsula - the only bright spot - was

the provision for the $3.5 million for St. Lawrence and the $800,000 for Grand

Bank. That is the only bright spot. The rest was not very bright, and I

acknowledge that in the House and I acknowledged it publicly. And anyone who

monitors the press on the Burin Peninsula knows I have said that.

So, Mr. Chairman, I just want to make those few remarks. I

feel compelled to make them because I feel so strongly about them. Because, you

know, here we see a Government which has brought down a very harsh Budget that

is going to see health and education and transportation and municipal services -

not a mention in the Budget, Mr. Chairman, of any capital works, water and

sewer, road work for municipalities in this Province. It is the first time in

the nine years I have been in this Legislature that there has not been a

reference in the Budget to a provision for capital works for municipalities

throughout this Province - the first time. Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I

conclude my remarks on Supplementary Supply.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yesterday, I said a

few words as it pertains to Supplementary Supply, and yesterday afternoon the

hon. the Government House Leader made a few remarks. I want to say to the

Government House Leader that his remarks, although well taken, really did not

sum up what this side of the House said about this Government having options

other than the way they went. I said yesterday evening, Mr. Chairman, that if

what the Minister of Finance and the Government House Leader and the Premier is

telling us, that restraints had to be made as it pertains to the spending power

of the Government, and I will sau it again now, there were was of doing it which

would not have been as cruel as the way this Government went about it.

I know there are reasons for Government not spending money

they do not have. But I said yesterday evening and I will stand by it, I was in

a position one time, when I worked at Pleasantville, where a whole department

down there was to be phased out. We had experts come down from Ottawa, and they

were just going to lay us off. I was one of the ones involved. And it is only

when one gets that little slip of paper saying your job is redundant that one

realizes what it is all about - you no longer have a job to go to.

But we fought back. I made a presentation to the Federal

Government. I assumed at the time it could be done and, Mr. Chairman, in reality

it became the way the Federal Government went. Mr. Chairman, if this Government

had said, okay - I know a lot of people went out three years ago with this early

retirement package, but there were still a great number of people who were just

about ready to retire. Not replacing anyone within the civil service, doing it

by attrition, Mr. Chairman, this Government never placed any emphasis on that.

They did not care about the people they laid off. They did not care about the

young people out there who had homes to pay for. They did not care. They said,

this is the way it is. The axe has to fall. Mr. Chairman, by attrition we could

have saved a number of jobs.

The other thing I am sure the majority of people out there

would accept if it was necessary would be a two-year freeze rather than one. Put

in one more year. At least the people would have jobs; at least you would not

send more people to the Mainland. Because inevitably, Mr. Chairman, that is what

is going to happen. And there is nothing wrong with that even. But there are a

lot of people out there, as I said, who had new homes and bought new cars on the

strength of a job with the Government. Everyone thought a job with Government

was a surety. If you had a job with Government, well that was it, you were good

for life, right?

I mean, this was something we lived with.

MR. SIMMS: The Member for Clarenville thought he had a

job for life.

MR. PARSONS: That is right.

MR. SIMMS: When he heard about the cuts he decided to get

out of it.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Chairman, that was another way we could

have saved, by bringing in a second year freeze, if it was necessary. And after

the first year perhaps the second year might not be a necessity at all. Mr.

Chairman, the other thing we could do - there are $5 million being spent on the

ERC and Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador, about $5 million, on salaries.

MR. FUREY: No. No.

MR. PARSONS: I would like the Minister of Development to

get to his feet some time and explain to this House and to the rest of the

people in Newfoundland how many new jobs were created in both those.

MR. FUREY: Thirty new jobs.

MR. PARSONS: At what cost? Certainly they are not $20,000

jobs. The overall picture, Mr. Chairman, is that the ERC and the ENL are costing

about $5 million, and in my rough calculations that would be about 200 jobs. Now

that would be 200 jobs we could save just by eliminating both those operations.

Mr. Chairman, when we were elected to this House on April

1989 we were elected to represent the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. We

did not ask some royal commission. Dr. House was not elected. The people on

those two commissions, they were not elected. You were elected to do a job, and

if you cannot do the job, then you should resign, you should quit, give it up. I

am sure that the Minister of Development is just as capable, I am positive the

Minister is just as capable as Dr. House to run his Department. I am sure, I am

positive that the people whom he had within the structure of his Department had

the capabilities to perform as well as the Economic Recovery Commission -

AN HON. MEMBER: A good man.

MR. PARSONS: He is a good man, yes, he is, I agree he is

a good man, but his goodness is certainly not showing because it has been taken

away; he does not have anything to do, a good Minister, I am surprised at the

Premier, I am surprised at the Premier, you know to relinquish, to water down

that fine young man's capabilities and that is what the Premier is doing.

I mean I am really feeling dejected, you know, myself, he

does not have anything to do. I mean the Economic Recovery Commission was the

Premier's first baby and then they came up with another new one, Enterprise

Newfoundland and Labrador; but what he did not eliminate from the Minister of

Development in his first scenario, he certainly eliminated whatever powers he

had in the second one. I mean, Mr. Chairman, this is where I have difficulty in

realizing that we are a part of a system where we are all elected to represent

certain districts to do a job, to do a job, and there we have a Premier who

says, no, those men are not capable of doing their jobs, I will bring in Dr.

House, I will bring in some other experts from out in the field.

Mr. Chairman, the Premier should have asked those gentlemen

to run for the party, to run for the party and then he could make them, perhaps

take away the young Minister of Development and replace him by one of those

gentlemen.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, we should get rid of him anyhow.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Chairman, every time one of the people

on the Government side gets up, it is a Federal Government responsibility.

MR. SIMMS: He works for Doug House.

MR. PARSONS: He works for Doug, I know, but I mean I do

not want to say that, I mean I am not going to say that, I would not say that

because he is a good young man, a fine upstanding -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. PARSONS: Now you said that, not me. I am amazed at

the Premier -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) $44 million (inaudible).

MR. PARSONS: He has yes, $44 million for Doug and the

hon., the Minister of Development had a cut, I do not know if there is any

monies there - has someone the Estimates, is there any monies left in his

Department?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. PARSONS: There is no monies left in the Department of

Development -

MR. WOODFORD: He had first call on that.

AN HON. MEMBER: No, tourism, he got a bit of tourism, he

is in charge of tourism, Stephenville (inaudible).

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry this morning too,

because the other day the Minister of Social Services was up and he was waving

that Sprung deal. He said: here is where the money went, if we had not wasted

the $22 million, we would have lots of money, there would be no hospital beds

closing, education would have a 12 per cent increase, there it was, Sprung.

Well, Mr. Chairman, I for one, and I want it to go on record

in saying that I think that Sprung was a mistake.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: Everybody said that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Ah, not all your fellows

agree with you on that.

MR. PARSONS: There is a lot of people over there who

agreed with me on that. Now, let me remind you of one thing, that Sprung cost

$22 million; I believe it is about $22 million, $21 million -

AN HON. MEMBER: There is an inquiry into it.

MR. PARSONS: - well, $22 million, okay, but let me say

this to you; let us look at the Churchill Falls situation, when last year we

lost $138 million, $138 million we lost.

Now, let me do a little bit of calculation for the Minister

of Finance, seven Sprungs every year, seven Sprungs every year, gone, the money

is gone, seven Sprungs each year for sixty-five years, seven multiplied by

sixty-five and we have 455 Sprungs.

MR. WOODFORD: It was seven hundred and some odd million

we lost last year.

MR. PARSONS: My colleague here from Humber Valley tells

me that we lost much more than that, so we are talking about thousands of

Sprungs. Some of those young Members over there on the opposite side really do

not realize what is happening. That is like the hon. Member for Placentia, a

fine young man, but he just does not understand what is happening. Also, the

Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island really does not realize what is happening,

but I think way down deep he does. The hon. John Crosbie supports Bell Island

more than the hon. Member does. One of those days, Mr. Speaker, I am going to do

some research. I have not done much this morning, I must say, but I am going to

do some research and I am going to see how many Sprungs are really going down

the drain in the deal that was signed with Churchill Falls. How much money are

we losing? Will the Premier get up and say that Churchill Falls was a dreadful

mistake, that we sold her down the river? We sold our rights, we sold our

people, we sold our hospitals, we sold our educational system, we sold our

chance for being equal by that Churchill Falls agreement. That is what happened

to Newfoundland. That is all that is wrong with Newfoundland.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. Member's time has elapsed.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. Member have leave of the

House?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, give him leave.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to ask the Premier, because he is living in the

city and because he has a lot of people in his Cabinet from St. John's, and

because of the situation as it pertains to transportation problems within the

city, and because of the advent of Hibernia, because of the closing of the

railway when we will get much more of an effort heading to and from the airport,

I want to say to the Premier would he direct the Minister of Transportation to

start immediately the construction of that Outer Ring Road? It is essential, it

is an necessity. Surely, goodness, Mr. Chairman, the Premier is not listening to

some of those people out there who are saying it is going to destroy the park

and it is going to destroy what is out there. With today's technology that is

not going to happen. The Premier should, and I think the Premier is fair, I

think the Premier realizes there is a problem within the city. I think the

Premier realizes that the Outer Ring Road is a necessity, and I ask the Premier

AN HON. MEMBER: A four-lane highway through a park?

MR. PARSONS: What was Pippy Park is not being touched. It

is the additional grounds that were added to Pippy Park, that is where the road

is running. Before I sit down I would like to say to the Premier that I think

his fairness and balance might be upper most in his mind. It has not become a

reality by any stretch of the imagination but I am sure he is fair and I think

he would be fair to the people in the area, in the St. John's area. I implore

the Premier to say to this Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to go

ahead and start that Outer Ring Road.

Thank you, very much, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: I would like to speak on this Bill that deals

with the Interim Supply of the Government to the end of March 1991.

I see in the Estimates an additional amount of money for the

Legislature of the Province and the operation of the Legislature. And looking

around me, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make one or two comments on the

Legislature that we are now in. I know that some of the aesthetic and artistic

Members of our populace and of the press do not find it a very salubrious place,

but I must say I am not a critic of the look of the House. I think the House

looks very dignified and a proper place for debate to take place. I think that

is a good thing compared to other Houses across the country and to the House of

Commons. I think it has a proper look and a proper field for the kind of debate

that ought to take place here.

I am a little less enthralled, Mr. Chairman, with the

facilities provided for Members in this part of the Chamber and around the

Chamber. It is a very unfortunate thing that the House facilities are unable to

accommodate all Members. I find myself being allocated to an office some

distance from the House itself making it more difficult for me to do my duties.

That is something that I may take up at a later date. But hopefully we are going

to get some improved facilities.

I see also in addition supplementary supply for the

Department of Education in the area of teaching services and transportation of

school children. But there is an area that I would like to speak about this

morning, Mr. Chairman, and that has to do with the recent most destructive piece

of news coming from this Budget. I do not think that the Members on the other

side of the House or indeed the Cabinet and perhaps even the Premier has not

really fully considered the extinction of the Extension Services of Memorial

University.

Mr. Chairman, I am convinced that the Members on the other

side of the House and the Members of the Cabinet and the Premier cannot be

really aware of the vital service that is performed by Extension Service around

this Province. It is sort of invisible in many ways. It is invisible in many

ways because it's work involving community development working with people,

communicating with people, getting them together to help sort out their own

problems, self-help groups, public participation, working with community

councils, working with agricultural groups to develop projects and to improve

agricultural services, developing leadership all over this Province, bringing

about public participation in the rural areas of Newfoundland. This is an

organization, Mr. Chairman, that has been responsible for an enormous amount of

public involvement and public participation. I am sure there are Members on both

sides of this House who have been touched by the work of the Extension Services

over the years.

I know the Minister of Education made some comments in the

House yesterday about what a good service it was in the past. But I think he

must not be in touch with the present day Extension Service because he must not

be aware of what a great service it is still performing in keeping people in

rural Newfoundland, having them have facilities to be able to communicate with

one another, to work together to try and solve their problems, to work together

to bring about change and improvement in rural Newfoundland, and playing a

tremendous role in bringing democracy to rural Newfoundland. That is a great

service, Mr. Chairman. And I think that this service and this organization and

the people involved with it over the years have developed a tremendous

reputation, not only in Newfoundland, and not only in the rest of Canada, but

around the world. And the people from this organization, from the Extension

Service have been bringing their skills, their ability to other countries in the

world, to India, to Alaska, to other areas which are trying to introduce similar

kinds of services and are using the skills and the knowledge and leadership that

has been developed in this Province. And to stand by, Mr. Chairman, and watch

and allow the University for the sake of a very minuscule portion of its Budget,

I think the figure quoted is .84 per cent of the University's Budget which goes

towards the Extension Service. For that amount of money, Mr. Chairman, by a

budget measure of this Government, to allow that Extension Service to be

destroyed, to be placed in extinction, to be ripped up and thrown away as if it

were a useless appendage, a luxury, an excess. This, Mr. Chairman, cannot be

countenanced, and I would urge the Minister of Finance, who was a former

professor of education at Memorial University, a person who aught to be aware of

the great importance of this particular educational service, ask him to

introduce a change in this Bill to provide an additional sum of money for

Memorial University to keep the extension service alive. I would ask him to do

that, Mr. Chairman, because I think it is of vital importance and a vital

service to rural Newfoundland and a vital contribution to rural development

programs internationally, leadership provided by this Province, excellence

provided by the individuals working in this Province at the university. If the

Minister of Finance cares about this university and cares about this Province he

will introduce a Bill or an amendment to this Bill to provide an extra amount of

money to keep the extension service going.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Those are my remarks on this Bill.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to

have a few words on this Supplementary Supply Bill.

Mr. Chairman, when we look at the total Budget and start

going down through and looking at Budget highlights and certain estimates

pertaining to different departments, I do not think there is one department in

there that has not been touched. And if we are going to have any growth in this

Province or any improvement in the job situation in this Province in the

unemployment rate and so on, we all know that in a province such as this, and we

have others, for instance, like PEI that have the highest Government spending in

Canada, something around 77.8 per cent of all funds spent in the Province is

spent by Government. This is a small province, no exception. Large, I suppose,

geography wise and so on, but very small in a population that is spread out over

a very, very large area.

The biggest employer, I would say, in this Province is the

Government, the one employer that we as politicians can put our fingers and our

hands on when it comes to either increasing spending or decreasing spending

pretty well over night. A large corporation in the Province pretty well got the

final say, and they can say, 'Well, I am going to lay off 10 tomorrow morning,

or 15.' There is always a racket kicked up about whether it is in forestry or

whether it is in hydro or what have you. They are always saying the corporations

are taking money out of the Province and they should put something back, and so

on. We cannot dictate anymore. One time we pretty well could, but today we

cannot dictate who is going to spend what and where they are going to spend it,

who they are going to lay off or what, but Government can. Government has the

final say in what happens.

Mr. Chairman, this is a time when Government, as far as I am

concerned, should try to hold the line. They say they have no money, they do

have money. They have approximately $3.5 billion. It is no different than a

household. The head of the household makes the decision on where those funds go

and how they are spent. It is called priority, Mr. Chairman, and it is called

good fiscal management whether it is in a household, whether it is in a business

or whether it is in Government. When you start hitting health and education

especially, to me that is frightening. When you see cases and interviews on

television each and every night, carried not only across the Province today, but

carried across Canada on Canada AM, Newsworld, Midday, and The Journal. When you

see those people out, for instance, in Port aux Basques, 200 km, if I am not

mistaken, away from the hospital in Corner Brook. How can anybody justify

closing down the surgical unit in a place like Port aux Basque and saying they

can go to Corner Brook, but at the same time closing down a Bonne Bay or

Springdale or extra beds in St. Anthony and so on, and then say that they can

all go to Corner Brook?

Sure, they can go to Corner Brook. How are they going to get

to Corner Brook? With the conditions of the roads in the wintertime out there,

let alone in the summertime because of the distances. And when they get to

Corner Brook, what do they get? Now the Minister just last night on the newscast

said that when those people do get to a regional hospital such as Corner Brook,

they will have an excellent service.

Well then, the Minister better go back and consult with his

officials. Because I for one can state and say here today that the regional

hospital in Corner Brook cannot handle any extra burdens from Port aux Basques

or Bonne Bay or St. Anthony or anywhere else. Under the fiscal restraint that is

in place now they can't do it. And the people of Port aux Basques and Bonne Bay

and elsewhere are not going to be deceived by that. They can't be. They can't

afford to - because they are playing with their lives, their children's lives,

their family's lives. And they can't take it lying down and I am sure they will

not.

If there was extra funding put into the Corner Brook

hospital, for instance, you could probably justify some of it, some of the

closures and some of the, I suppose, so-called rationalization and

centralization when it comes to hospital services. But in this case, Mr.

Chairman, there is absolutely no justification in what is being done. You can't

downsize the major hospital in the region.

You probably could do it in the city of St. John's with a few

more services, because of the proximity to that service. But how, in the name of

God, can someone say in the community of Port aux Basques - everybody knows what

it is like to drive from Corner Brook to Port aux Basques in the wintertime in

this Province. At the best of times even with a few snow flurries you have a job

to make it. Everybody in this Province and in this country knows all about the

Wreck House area of the west coast of the Province. You can't get through it on

a windy day. You just cannot get through it, even on a nice day. You can go

through the nicest kind of a day, middle of the summer, but if you've got that

wind you ain't passing through the Wreck House area of this Province. One

hundred and thirty, 140 mile an hour winds are nothing new. You can take a

boxcar and whip it off the tracks, five and six at a time, loaded - not empty,

loaded - whip them off the tracks and out into the ditch.

To add to that the distance, 200 kilometres from Port aux

Basques to Corner Brook, how can they justify the closing of such a service in

that area of the Province? Anywhere over there? But more specifically in that

area. And to say that they are going to move it into Corner Brook and go to

Corner Brook and you are going to get a top-notch service, you are not going to

get it. There are people in Corner Brook and the west coast of the Province

today, waiting six months for surgery. How are they going to now add all the

expenditure and the needs of the Port aux Basques, Bonne Bay, St. Anthony

people, to the Corner Brook hospital, and expect it to function? It can't

function. It is common sense. And I am sure Members opposite realize that what I

am saying is absolutely true, it is realistic, it is real, it does not have to

come from a politician. You can talk to anybody on the west coast of the

Province today who has a relative who is waiting to get in for surgery. And I am

not talking about major surgery.

AN HON. MEMBER: How come you never talk about Grand

Falls?

MR. WOODFORD: I am talking about the west coast of the

Province, now. When the member gets up he can speak about his particular area.

If you have the clinics and things in place, especially in that area of the

Province, it is hard when you lose it - that is when it hurts. That is where the

hurt comes in because then you have examples, as was shown on television the

other night, of people just minutes away from probably certain death. Like the

girl they showed on television the other night when her appendix broke. A

calamity in no uncertain terms is what would have happened in that particular

case. Now, Mr. Chairman, you do not have to be a hospital administrator and you

do not have to be a nurse or a doctor to look and view, and take into

consideration the needs and determination of the people in areas of the Province

such as that. The Minister of Health is not here today but his Cabinet

colleagues are, he should take it back and make sure that the Corner Brook

hospital and other hospitals, but especially the Corner Brook hospital, the

Western Memorial Hospital on the West Coast of the Province is fully funded.

Going back to last September, with the promises made by this administration back

in the Spring of 1989 that we will open hospital beds in this Province, and to

look at it back in September when you had forty-eight beds closed in the Western

Memorial Hospital on the West Coast of this Province, and when you look at it

today without announcements being made, but it looks pretty much like there are

going to be another thirty to thirty-five closed, and, Mr. Chairman, as far as I

am concerned that is totally wrong. At the same time they say we are going to

look after the other hospitals in the region, bring them all into Corner Brook

and close an extra thirty beds. Now, if someone on the other side of the House

can stand and tell me, and show me where I am wrong, I would invite it and I

will be the first one to admit I am wrong. In this case, Mr. Chairman, I am

right in what I say and the only place I could be wrong is in the number of beds

that might be closed. I was told that it was thirty but until there are

announcements made this week, Tuesday or Wednesday, by the administrator of the

Western Memorial Hospital in Corner Brook, I stand to be corrected on that one.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. Member's time has elapsed.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

DR. KITCHEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As I listen to the comments being made across the House I am

wondering what Never Never Land the Members are living in. They are living in a

Never Never Land. We are facing a financial situation in this Province which is

extremely serious. We have had to bite the bullet. After years and years of

financial mismanagement and a mounting debt we were faced with a potential

deficit on current account this year of $200 million, if we had carried on the

way we were going - and we just cannot do it.

Now, the Member for Grand Bank gets up and brings in a

concept that must have come 200 years ago - of dividing up the spoils. He thinks

that we take the money and divide it up by fifty-two and dish it out in that

fashion. 'We did not get anything,' he said,' in my district.' That is not the

way it is going. We do not divide up the spoils. That is the philosophy that he

seems to have. I know he was leader of a party, once, an interim leader, a

one-night leader I believe he was. Did you hear about that? The Member for Grand

Bank was appointed and then he was disappointed. We all heard that. It is no

wonder he was disappointed if he advocated that kind of a strategy.

AN HON. MEMBER: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I hesitate to rise on a point of order but you

cannot have the mad hatter, the mad Minister of Finance, making false

accusations and statements in this House. I have to correct the record about

appointment and disappointment. The Minister is a great disappointment to the

Province and the sooner he is disappointed as Minister of Finance the better

everyone in the Province will be.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MR. MATTHEWS: Why don't you get up and speak for your

district instead of being a wimp?

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Chairman, I did not really mean to get

at the quick there but I guess I did. I am sorry about that.

We do not operate on a philosophy, Mr. Chairman, of dividing

the spoils. We never have and I hope we never will. That is not to say though

that every district should be treated fairly because we certainly believe that

throughout the Province things should be done as fairly as possible. The Member

for St. John's East Extern brings a very strange viewpoint, he thinks that we

could solve our $200 million potential deficit on current account by attrition,

by waiting for people to retire or to get sick and leave the public service.

Mr. Speaker, a few years ago we had an induced early

retirement program which gutted out a very large proportion of the senior civil

servants close to retirement age, and there are not very many people close to

retirement age in the civil service any more, so there is no way we could have

met the financial problems by just waiting for people to leave, the problem was

far too great for that, so that proposal by the Member for St. John's East

Extern is not a workable one. It would have been nice if we could have met it in

that fashion, I am sure, but we just couldn't wait, we had to take firmer steps

than that.

The Member for St. John's East - he has left the House - did

make a point about the Extension Service, and those of us who were heavily

involved with the Extension Service years ago, realize the tremendous

contribution that the Extension Service has made over the years, but the problem

is, as the President of the University said on television, you have to make a

choice, if not that, something else.

What would he cut, what would the Member for St. John's East

cut at the university if he were to restore the Extension Service? That is the

question; it is a question of either/or, and I presume the university has made

its decisions after weighing what things had more priority than others; that is

their decision, it is not the Government's decision, it is their decision and

they have to weigh one thing against the other.

Now, the Member for Humber Valley: he thinks that we should

spend more money, that is basically what he was saying, do not make any cuts, do

not make any cuts because cuts are harsh. There is no doubt that what he is

saying is right, that it is very difficult to bring in a severe Budget such as

this, but it had to be brought in, there was no choice in the matter and it is a

painful experience. But just getting up and reiterating and saying: you know it

is severe, it is too bad we had to do this, and don't do it, why don't you put

more money in the Budget? There is no more money to go in it - there is no more

money to go in. We have reached it and I am going to tell you this that had we

not taken firm steps to come to grips with this Budgetary problem - this

financial problem that the Province is in - if we had not taken steps

immediately to address this in a significant way, the financial problems of the

Province would be much worse.

Had we not been able to borrow the $600 million - almost $600

million we are going to have to borrow this year - we would have had to reduce

service by $600 million, not $200 but by $600. If you could not borrow $600, we

would have to reduce by $600, so it is no good to talk about adding more money

back in, we cannot do it, but all we good do, I suppose, is to spend money in a

different way and that comes down to priorities.

We have been examining this for some time and once we knew

what the thing was like we spent several months - we have been accused by the

Opposition of not doing it quick enough, and some of us would have perhaps liked

to have done it more quickly but we had to think carefully about what we were

doing and that is the problem.

Anyway, we have made these points and, Mr. Chairman, there

was no choice, we had to come to grips with our Budgetary problem, our financial

problem and we have done so; it is not easy to do these things, it is not easy,

and people will be affected but I believe that in the long run what we have done

will be better for the Province. We have not significantly, negatively affected

the health care, it is on plan as the Minister of Health has said, it is on

plan; some decisions are harsh, education is more or less on target towards the

plan and similarly with the other Departments. But there is no doubt that the

steps we have taken are severe steps, but steps that were absolutely necessary,

and hopefully we will be able to carry on and do things in the next year or so

that will further stimulate the economy. But I do not want Members to think that

we are completely out of the woods yet. We still face severe problems. Not only

does Newfoundland face severe problems but so does every other province in

Canada.

Nova Scotia was talking last night about levying a fee that

everybody will have to pay towards a medical insurance, $30 or $40 a year, and

some other provinces are doing that. That is a terrible way, that is another

form of taxation, a form of taxation which I certainly do not approve of,

because it means that virtually everybody in the Province pays exactly the same

amount. It is another form of poll tax. A $34 a month or $40 a month poll tax on

everybody. You can't have that kind of thing. That is a very regressive form of

taxation. But Nova Scotia has similar problems to what we have, and the Western

provinces do, and Ontario has a severe problem, and so does Quebec.

So, Mr. Chairman, it is not something that Newfoundland alone

is faced with. We are all facing these problems in Canada, and the basic problem

in Canada, not only for the provinces but for the Federal Government, is that

governments for years have been living far beyond their means and have been

spending money unwisely. So what we have to do is to be careful how we spend the

Government's money, the people's money, our neighbour's money, because there is

just no more left at the moment. We have to be extremely careful.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member's time has elapsed.

The hon. Leader of the Opposition.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to have a

few words on this supplementary supply bill before it is finally dealt with. And

it is kind of passing strange to have the Minister of Finance, who just a few

days ago brought in his third budget, to have the unmitigated gall to be on his

feet this morning talking about unwise spending and over-spending and improper

managing of the financial affairs of the Province.

Mr. Chairman, how much longer has that incompetent Minister

got to be delivering budgets in this Province and getting up and trying to blame

the budgetary woes of this Province on somebody else, and failing to take the

responsibility himself, which is what he should do? The time has come for this

Minister to have the fortitude to stand up and take on his shoulders his own

responsibility. The responsibility for this Budget belongs to nobody else only

this administration and the Minister of Finance. What we have in this Budget is

a situation that this Government created itself. This Government create the

situation that the Minister finds himself in. It was not solely created by other

forces as the Minister and the Government would have you to believe. The problem

is that this Government and this Minister have not had the fortitude and the

ability to deal with the financial problems facing this Province.

Now there are a couple of other matters I want to refer to in

this wide-ranging supplementary supply debate that the rules allow us to do. If

there is one person on the front benches in the Ministry in this House that I

would have gone to my death saying that he would be honest and forthright and

open, not only with this House but with the people of Newfoundland and Labrador,

it is the Minister of Education. I would have taken a bullet, believing that

that hon. gentleman would not have under any circumstances even given the

impression that he was not being honest and forthright with the House and with

the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Now the Minister will have an opportunity if he wishes to get

up when I am finished. First of all this Minister started the little trail of

deceit a couple of days ago, when the Minister said in this House that the

decision to do away with, to discontinue, the electrical subsidy to the church

colleges on the University campus was announced in last year's budget. Now I

could forgive the Minister for that. Maybe in his older days his memory is

starting to fail him. But, Mr. Chairman, when it was pointed out to him in black

and white that his colleague, the President of Treasury Board, told the House

last year that it was not true and it was not in the Budget he still refuses to

admit that he made a mistake and gave the House wrong information. That, Mr.

Chairman, is characteristic of what the Minister did again yesterday. The

President of the University, Mr. Chairman, had no choice because of the

budgetary restraints put on the university by this Government, had no choice but

to announce some very, very, draconian measures at the university. He, Mr.

Chairman, that is Dr. May, told the people of this Province that the operating

grant from this House to the university would increase by only $140,000 for the

coming fiscal year. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Education sat in his seat

shoulder to shoulder with his soul mate, the Minister of Finance last Thursday

and listened to the Minister of Finance say in his Budget that the salaries

would be frozen for all public service employees, including the university, in

this Province. The Minister of Education must have known. If he didn't he is an

incompetent individual and I do not think he is, but he must have known that the

budgetary decision was taken to give the university not a $5.5 million operating

increase and operating grant, but a $140,000 operating increase. The Budget was

delivered in this House on Thursday, March 7, and on Friday, March 8, the

Minister of Education, in his usual smiling way, called in the microphones and

the cameras, injected himself into the living rooms of Newfoundland and Labrador

that evening, and said the following -now, this is the Minister's whole

statement, all sixteen pages of it right here, and the Minister said,

'Memorial's operating grant will basically increase by $5.5 million in 1991-92

when compared with 1990-91.'

Mr. Chairman, the Minister should quit while he is ahead. The

Minister deceived the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. He deceived this

House again yesterday when he got up and answered my question about the $140,000

increase in the operating budget, not $5.5 million. Listen to his convoluted

mathematics, just listen to it, the Minister said this: then we decided to

freeze the Budget. We took $4.8 million from that and that left a Budget of

$106,246,000 that are in the estimates. He said, as I said before, that is

before the freeze, the increase was $5.5 million of the $12 million, but when we

decided to freeze, of course, we took away $4,859,000. Now, Mr. Chairman, that

decision was made and announced on Thursday, March 7. How could the Minister go

before the people of Newfoundland and Labrador on Friday, March 8, the day

after, and say the university operating budget had increased by $5.5 million

when he subtracted $4,859,000 the day before? How could he do it? Now, what kind

of sense does that make? What happened, Mr. Chairman, is that the Minister was

being dishonest, which I find very uncharacteristic for the Minister, he was

being dishonest and deceitful with the people of Newfoundland and Labrador on

March 8. Mr. Chairman, I do not know if there is anybody alive in the press

gallery in this House any more, I really do not know. I can say this now because

to me, personally, it really does not matter, but it seems to me that when it

comes to the honesty and integrity of this Government nobody pays any attention,

nobody listens.

AN HON. MEMBER: (inaudible)

MR. RIDEOUT: The Minister will have ten minutes when I

sit down. If the Minister makes as much money as he did yesterday it is going to

take some clearing up. The point I was going to make, Mr. Chairman, is this: it

has now been shown beyond any doubt that the Minister of Education went before

the people of this Province the day after the Budget was brought down and did

not tell the truth about the increase in the operating Budget for Memorial

University. That cannot be denied. The Minister admitted to me yesterday in the

House that the operating Budget has increased by $140,000. Dr. Warren said it

yesterday, the figures prove it, and the Minister acknowledged it in the House

yesterday. Yet the Minister, the day after the Budget was brought down,

continued to say that the budget for the University was increased by $5.5

million.

To be kind to the Minister, that is incompetence. If I wanted

to be unkind to the Minister I could say it is being deceitful and untruthful.

Or it is a combination of both. But, Mr. Chairman, do you think that that can

get into the heads of the people in the press gallery here?

DR. WARREN: Don't criticize the press gallery!

MR. RIDEOUT: I will criticize, I say to the Minister,

whom I like when I stand to speak in this House. Whom I like, I will criticize.

And if they come in here to go up there and go to sleep, then they have no right

to be here. None whatsoever to be here!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RIDEOUT: If they are going to come in here - the

press gallery I am talking about - with rose-coloured glasses on and not pay any

attention to the incompetence, deceitfulness and untruthfulness of the

Government when it is pointed out, they have no right to be here! None

whatsoever! Because if our parliamentary system is going to work - and I have

heard other Members of the Opposition say harder words than I am saying now -

when the Government makes a mistake, it is the responsibility of the Fourth

Estate to report that mistake and report it fairly by reporting what both sides

say, not what one side says!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, just a word. The press asked

the question about Memorial University at the news conference, and if the hon.

the Leader of the Opposition had had somebody there he would have known that we

clarified it. I have the data and it is backuppable, in fact. What I have is

backuppable with statements from other documents. I have a transcript of the

news conference -we have transcripts of news conferences now - and I can quote -

AN HON. MEMBER: How much did you pay for it?

DR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, we do not pay anybody anything.

AN HON. MEMBER: No?

DR. WARREN: We do what is right. And I have here a

statement which clarified for the people of this Province precisely what we did,

which was confirmed by Dr. May yesterday. They have got a $7 million to $8

million problem, and perhaps -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

DR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, one of these days I will enter

this data into the record so that even the Opposition House Leader will

understand it. Everybody else understands it, including Dr. May and the Board of

Regents at Memorial, and Mr. White, who is the Chairperson of the Board of

Regents. They made all these decisions, they understand what happened, and one

of these days I will enter into the records what I said at the press conference

to explain the situation to the press.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. RIDEOUT: Now, Mr. Chairman, that is great spirited

defence of incompetence if ever I saw one. `One of these days I will get up and

enter some evidence into the record.' One of these days. Well, do you know what?

One of these days the sun is going to shine and have not will be no more - one

of these days! One of these days I am going to be able to afford to go to

Florida for Easter - one of these days! The Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation talked about some road work on Mars. One of these days they might

be building super highways on Mars, I say to the Minister.

I mean, that is not good enough - one of those days. The fact

of the matter is that the Minister of Education knowingly, I say to him, went

before the people of - well, if the Minister shakes his head and says he did not

know, well, I have lost all respect that I have had for him - if he did not

know. The fact of the matter is the Minister of Education went before the public

of this Province the day after the Budget was brought down and said that the

operating grant for Memorial University was increasing by $5.5 million and the

Minister knew or should have known - if he did not know he is totally

incompetent - that that was a gross, gross error, that it was increasing by only

$140,000.

Now the Minister may as well accept that, because that is the

fact of the matter. I did not write this press statement. It says here:

Ministerial Statement to the media. I know they have not gone nowhere now, Mr.

Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: Read the whole thing.

Ministerial Statement to the media re 1991-92 Education

Budget, Philip J. Warren, Minister of Education. Oh, Mr. Chairman, Philip J.

Warren, Minister of Education! That is who delivered this. Now if this had been

the Minister of Finance, I could see it. That is who delivered this the day

after the Budget was brought down, and the Minister of Education wants this

House to believe, and wants the public of Newfoundland and Labrador to believe,

that he did not know the difference? I will tell you, Mr. Chairman, and I said

in Question Period this morning what happened, this statement was prepared for

the Minister before the Budget came down.

AN HON. MEMBER: Before the election.

MR. RIDEOUT: It may well have been prepared before the

election.

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

MR. RIDEOUT: But that is stretching it.

This document, this statement was prepared for the Minister

before the Budget came down and he took it under his arm, Mr. Chairman; some

public relations director, whoever serves the Minister's Department, gave it to

him and he trotted of to a press conference and he read it. He read it out, Mr.

Chairman, word for word. Right proud, Mr. Chairman, to announce that Memorial

was going to get a $5.5 million increase in its operating budget.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I thought the Minister was more competent

than that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. RIDEOUT: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: Matthews wants (inaudible).

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, Matthews wants a leader's

pension. That Minister of Finance who brought into this House the most savage

Budget that this Province has seen since 1932, the taxpayers of Newfoundland and

Labrador pays that Minister in excess of $100,000 a year and all he can do is

come into this House and make jokes about leadership, or potential leadership.

Mr. Chairman, the people of this Province is getting some value, I say to the

Minister, some value for the hundred grand a year the taxpayers are putting into

your pocket.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RIDEOUT: What value! The people, Mr. Chairman, what

value they are getting from the Minister of Finance. We know what value we are

getting from the Minister of Finance. Short and curly value.

MR. MATTHEWS: Right on!

MR. RIDEOUT: That is what he said, Mr. Chairman. Let them

starve. And then he has the gall to come in here and start poking fun about who

might be leader for this day or three hours from now, Mr. Chairman. The Minister

is a joke, Mr. Chairman

MR. SIMMS: Right on!

MR. RIDEOUT: And not only that, he is even worse than a

joke, Mr. Chairman. Because when he makes some silly little crack, he gets over

there clapping for himself. I mean, I don't think the man has too much left

upstairs.

MR. SIMMS: He is not allowed to answer questions.

AN HON. MEMBER: The mad doctor.

MR. SIMMS: Even the Government is embarrassed by him.

They will not let him answer questions.

MR. RIDEOUT: That is right. We cannot get him on his

feet. I managed to get him on his feet the day before yesterday, was it not?

MR. SIMMS: Yes, for one minute, was it not?

MR. RIDEOUT: I got him on his feet the day before

yesterday, and the President of Treasury Board had to come in and try to bail

him out yesterday.

MR. SIMMS: Oh, yes. Old bail-him-out Baker.

MR. RIDEOUT: Bail him out! I do not know what they would

do without the President of Treasury Board, Mr. Chairman.

Now, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Education cannot crawl out

of this one. He will get up and he will skate and he will stickhandle and he

will do it all, but the Minister of Education made a fundamental error, Mr.

Chairman, the day after this Budget came down and he would be much better off in

terms of his own credibility if he admitted it. But no, no, you cannot do that.

You cannot. That would embarrass the Minister. I cannot admit I made a mistake,

I was wrong, so you get up and you try in your convoluted way to stickhandle out

of it and skate out of it. But what are the consequences, Mr. Chairman, of what

this Government has done to the University in terms of this present Budget?

One of the most serious consequences is the total closedown

of the Extension Services Department. And again the Minister of Education gets

up in this House yesterday and talks about community colleges all over the

place, and distance education all over the place. I wonder, did he hear some of

the Extension people been interviewed this morning.

MR. SIMMS: Or last night.

MR. RIDEOUT: Or last night. Mr. Chairman, the fact of the

matter is that there probably would not be a Fogo Island today if it were not

for the Extension Services Department of Memorial University.

AN HON. MEMBER: What nonsense!

MR. RIDEOUT: Oh, nonsense! Mr. Chairman, here is the

Minister of Finance, the man who had all the grit and the nerve to say to his

Cabinet colleagues, the Committee on the university, `You bring them in here and

I will tell them where to cut their Budget. There is nothing only fat and graft

and corruption over at that institution. I ought to know, I have been over there

long enough, and I can tell you where it is, too,' he said to some of his

Cabinet colleagues. `Bring the university administration in before the Committee

and I will tell them where to cut it out.' Low and behold, Mr. Chairman, the

university people come in and sit down with the Cabinet Committee and the old

wimp never opened his gob. The old Minister of Finance never opened his mouth.

As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I have it from the horse's mouth, one of his

colleagues -

AN HON. MEMBER: Which horse is that?

MR. RIDEOUT: There are 31 horses over there, so you find

out. That is a little game for you now. I have it from one of the Minister's

colleagues that that colleague, after the meeting broke up, turned to the

Minister and said, `Don't you ever talk to me again about bringing them in here

and whipping them in line and telling them where they are going to cut and

slashing their budget, and you know where the waste is and the graft is and the

corruption is. Don't you ever tell me that nonsense again.' This was the grit,

Mr. Chairman, of the Minister of Finance who was going to whip the university

into shape. Well, Mr. Chairman -

MR. MATTHEWS: Corruption left the university after the

last election.

MR. RIDEOUT: What a Minister of Finance. So, then the

Minister of Education, of course, takes the tack - he is a little bit more

diplomatic than the Minister of Finance. He is not going to haul the university

in and tell them what to do. The Minister of Education will take the tack we

will only give them a $140,000 increase in their operating budget, then they go

make the hard decisions and perhaps it will not come back to lodge on my

doorstep; perhaps it will not come back to haunt me. The same thing with the

boards of the various institutes around the Province, Mr. Chairman.

Yesterday he said glowing words about Cabot, but they have to

make their own budgetary decisions. We give them a global budget and that is

right. So the Minister hopes to skate away from it all; he hopes to be a

Gretzky, Mr. Chairman, and skate away from it all. But the fact of the matter is

those institutions, including the university and Cabot and the community

colleges, have to make those tough decisions because this Government was tough

on them. That is why they have to make them and, therefore, the responsibility

is here. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, if anybody had the fortitude and the

determination of their convictions, they would say, `Well, don't attack the

university, don't attack Dr. Inkpen, don't attack the Central Newfoundland

Community College Board, attack us, because they are only delivering what we

allow them to deliver.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I have a few additional

comments to make. I did explain to the press last week - I wish the hon. Member

had read the whole statement. I am looking forward to my friend for St. Mary's -

The Capes reading the whole statement of what I made last Friday, because

despite the tough times, this Government believes that education is still a

priority, Mr. Chairman. I would like for them to read the whole statement. I

would like for the Leader of the Opposition to read the Appendix, where we put

the actual figures in there. And when I was asked a question by the press, who

do their job diligently - I had an excellent news conference. The press do their

job; they ask all kinds of difficult questions.

MR. BAKER: You handled it well.

DR. WARREN: The President of Treasury Board says I

handled it well. I look to him, I defer to him; if he says I handled it well, I

believe him. I believe him and I thank him very much.

But, Mr. Chairman, I did say in answer to a question that

Memorial asked for about $12 million - in answer to a press question that day. I

went through it like I have gone through it in the House and the press

understood it, and most people in this House understand it. Why the hon. Member

is going after my friend the Minister of Finance and me, I do not know. Maybe it

is because of the grade he got in our courses at the university. There must be

something, because during the election, Mr. Chairman, he went after both of us.

He said when he was running for the leadership, `What about the old fellows who

are going to run for the Liberal Party, Herb Kitchen and Phil Warren, who are

outdated, outmoded, out of touch?' He said that in the House, and he said that

in the campaign. I do not know what he has against us.

MR. RIDEOUT: I was right.

DR. WARREN: Why does he not understand what the press

understand and what everybody else understands? I said at the press conference

Memorial asked for $12 million.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. WARREN: That was before we adjusted for the freeze,

and our plans to give them $5 million. I said there had to be fee increases, and

there will have to be fee increases, and Memorial, after they have increased

fees - we did not know at that point in time how much - they would still be left

with a problem - I said a $7 million to $8 million problem.

Mr. Chairman, I want to be serious about the Extension

Department because many people know it was a very difficult decision for the

Board of Regents. The Board of Regents, as was the Government, was faced with

real problems. They cannot borrow. Perhaps the Government can borrow a little

extra money, but the Board of Regents could not borrow money. So they had to

balance their Budget. The only two sources of revenues, as my friends

understand, fee increases and cuts - the only sources of additional funding. And

I know they went through a difficult time.

Mr. Chairman, if the Member for St. John's East were here, I

would congratulate him on some of his comments. Because certainly the Minister

of Finance and myself who worked with Extension in the 1960s and 1970s and

understand what Extension did for the Province, we believe the Extension Service

has provided a very valued service to this Province. We understand what they

have done. And I can understand Tony Williamson. I worked with the late Don

Snowdon, and I know what he did and what his Extension group did. And I

understand the workers who are affected, Mr. Chairman.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

DR. WARREN: I understand the workers who are affected by

any downsizing in Government and by the Extension. I understand the anger of

Neil Tilley. I understand Neil Tilley because he and I relate to each other. We

know. We understand the needs of rural Newfoundland. We understand the needs of

the Province. I can understand all of these. What I cannot understand, Mr.

Chairman, and what I cannot accept, are the comments from the Opposition.

Because I know what they did and what they tried to do to the Extension Service.

History will record how they tried to interfere, and the calls that went to the

President of Memorial University.

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

DR. WARREN: History will record. I heard at the

University when I was there, I heard secondhand, of how the Opposition tried to

AN HON. MEMBER: You heard?

DR. WARREN: So I cannot accept, Mr. Chairman, the

criticisms of this group now, when I know what they said over the years about

the Extension Service, and I know how the Budget was decreased.

AN HON. MEMBER: They pulled their teeth.

DR. WARREN: I know how they pulled their teeth.

Now, Mr. Chairman, having said that we do leave to the Board

of Regents, we leave to the college boards the decisions. We do make certain

guidelines. For example, in the case of Central Community College, we did say,

Mr. Chairman, to the Central Community College you may have some reductions, but

do not reduce the level of service at Baie Verte. We said to other colleges, do

not touch the Hibernia programs. But, however, within the context of the Budget

we said to the Boards of the Community Colleges, you will have a difficult time.

Government cannot provide all the monies you need. You decide what is best

within certain general guidelines. Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to see you in the

Honourable Chair. I am very pleased to see you there. I have the utmost respect

for you, Sir, and I am delighted to be able to say it publicly to you.

But the Government did not dictate to the Board of Regents.

We have confidence in the Chairperson of the Board of Regents, Mr. White, and

all of the Board of Regents from all over this Province. We have confidence that

they know what is best for the Province, and they have made their difficult

decisions because they do not have enough money. We left it to them. We are

pleased, however, with a number of things that we hear from Dr. May and Mr.

White and the Board. We are pleased they protected the right of the student

first. We are pleased they are looking at management and the organization of the

University. We are pleased they are not going to close the University programs

in Burin. We are pleased they are going to continue Burin, Labrador City,

Lewisporte, Grand Falls. We are pleased they are going to continue all these

programs. They had difficult decisions; we are pleased, Mr, Chairman, they are

not going to cap enrolments.

The hon. Member for St. Mary's - The Capes knows what is

going on across Canada with enrolments. Universities throughout this country are

eliminating programs, and they are capping enrolments. And the hon. the Member

for St. Mary's - The Capes, if and when he gets up to speak will tell how many

students are coming to Newfoundland to attend Memorial, because he knows across

Canada universities are capping enrolments. We are delighted, Mr. Chairman, that

Memorial University looked at the student first.

And one final bit of information, Mr. Chairman. One final bit

of information. I am pleased to tell this House and the people of Newfoundland

and Labrador that our participation in university education has increased

substantially in recent years. We are now approaching the Canadian average, and

we think with our scholarship program and with our student aid program and with

our decentralization of first year courses and second year courses at Memorial,

that very shortly participation in post-secondary education in this Province

will exceed the Canadian average. We are delighted with what is happening with

our student aid program, with our scholarship program, with our first year

courses all over the Province, with our other programs that Memorial will

continue. And we are optimistic, too, that community colleges will provide basic

community education for all our people. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: What garbage! What garbage!

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, after

suffering the vicious personal assault from the Minister of Education, I feel

obligated to rise at least once more and respond to the Minister.

Let me say to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, despite his attempt

to deflect from his own incompetence and his own deceit and untruthfulness on

the Budget for Memorial University, despite his failed attempt to deflect that

by making what I suppose he hoped to be a disparaging remark about my university

grades or lack thereof, let me say, Mr. Chairman, thank God! thank God! I would

fall on bended knee and thank God that I never ever did a course from the

Minister of Education or the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SIMMS: Now do not interrupt. Do not interrupt!

MR. RIDEOUT: Never, ever, Mr. Chairman and that is

probably why my university grades are A's - that is probably why they are A's.

Because I would not want to do a course from either one of those gentlemen. The

Minister made reference to some comment I made during the last election

campaign, and I know exactly what I said. I called them yesterday's men, Mr.

Chairman, and I mentioned Warren and Kitchen. And, Mr. Chairman, how right I

was. How right I was. They are yesterday's men; they have not brought a new

idea, a new bit of vision, a new bit of vigour into this House or this

Government in twenty-one months. Nothing new have they brought to the public

Administration of this Province.

MR. MATTHEWS: They brought bankruptcy.

MR. RIDEOUT: The Minister of Finance has the Province on

the verge of bankruptcy. That is closer than we have been for forty-odd years of

Confederation. The Minister of Education goes around with a half-moon smile on

his face trying to be a friend to everybody but being a friend to nobody,

because he will not stand up and take responsibility for his actions and the

actions of the Government. That is what those yesterday's men, Mr. Chairman,

brought to public Administration in this Province.

I never did a course with the Minister of Education, but

those who have told me that he was always in the habit of bringing in guest

lecturers -

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, lots of guest lecturers, all the

time.

MR. RIDEOUT: - that there were lots of guest lecturers in

the Minister's classes. Mr. Chairman, perhaps he should bring a guest lecturer

into the Minister's office and see if it is possible to dent that half

moon-smile, that trying to be nice to everybody facade that the Minister tries

to put on. And after twenty-one months, everybody in the Education fraternity in

this Province knows exactly what the Minister is. He came in with a lot of hope,

he came in with a lot of goodwill, he came in with a lot of expectation, and he

has delivered nothing. Absolutely nothing has he delivered. The NTA does not

trust him anymore, the school boards do not trust him anymore, the university

does not trust him anymore, the community colleges do not trust him anymore.

Because he has gone around the room the second time at socials, Mr. Chairman,

glad-hand and smiling to try to keep moving so that some teacher or some NTA

executive could not pin him down and ask him a question. I have had that told to

me, that he just keeps moving around a room so he won't be pinned down and put

into a corner and a hard question given to him. Well, Mr. Chairman, after 21

months

AN HON. MEMBER: Do not get personal (inaudible) get

personal.

MR. RIDEOUT: The Minister doesn't get personal, after

what he was just up to.

After 21 months, Mr. Chairman, the chicken are coming home to

roost, and the people in the education fraternity know what they are dealing

with. This Minister, Mr. Chairman, to get up and talk about Memorial University

Extension Service and what some past Government may or may not have done, and he

said history will record. What history will record, Mr. Chairman, is that it was

the Liberal Government of 1991-92 which killed Memorial University Extension.

That is what history will record. History is not going to be so concerned about

recording something that may have happened, that the Minister said he heard

secondhand. What will be recorded is that that group at the Extension Department

of Memorial University who were committed to rural Newfoundland and Labrador,

committed to the Fogo Islands of this Province and the Baie Verte Peninsula's of

this Province, that group was killed, Mr. Chairman, knifed in the back, savagely

killed on the table of budget restraint by this Government. That is what will be

recorded in the history books. That is what will be recorded, I say to the

Minister.

Mr. Chairman, Again the Minister has not yet had the

fortitude to get up and inform this House about what is going to happen in the

community college system around this Province. He is leaving that to the boards,

he says. Let the boards make the decision. Well, Mr. Chairman, the Central

Newfoundland Community College Board have met and they have decided that they

have to take 17 positions out of their system this year; 14 of them, I

understand, are instructors.

Now, the Minister, in the Budget and since, has indicated

that the Baie Verte campus will be okay for this year, and we appreciate that.

And I say, Mr. Chairman, my God, why wouldn't it be? Why wouldn't the Baie Verte

campus be okay for this year? We just lost 350 direct resource jobs down in Baie

Verte; we just had this Government put the axe to our hospital, which is going

to probably result in another 60 or 70 jobs lost. The Baie Verte Peninsula has

not made one ounce of progress, Mr. Chairman, in the last 21 months under this

Government. Not an ounce, not a centimetre of progress have we made under this

Government and the least they can do is try to find the means to keep that

community college open, after everything else that has happened in that town.

I would say, Mr. Chairman, even though there has been

economic devastation in other areas of the province over the last couple of

years, I cannot think of one area that has suffered any more economic

devastation than the Baie Verte Peninsula since January of this year. I don't

believe there is one in the Province. There have been hospitals announced to

close down in Port aux Basques, and that is rough, in Placentia, and that is

rough. It is rough everywhere when services are taken away, but can anybody

think of any other region of the Province which has had the dart put to it more

often in the last three months than the Baie Verte Peninsula? So the least, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister can do is find a way to keep that college open; the least

the Government could do would be keep the hospital open. That is the least the

Government can do.

Do you know, Mr. Chairman, that for the first time in 40

years, for the first time since my mother had to go to St. Anthony to have her

twins, a woman on the Baie Verte Peninsula will now have to go to Corner Brook

or Grand Falls to have a baby? Now that is progress. Mr. Chairman, forty years

ago we had an old Bowater's clinic and a doctor in Baie Verte, and at least the

women from Fleur de Lys, Coachman's Cove, La Scie and Baie Verte could get in a

boat, the old (inaudible) Atlantic, and come up to Baie Verte to have a baby. If

it was any more complicated than that you got on the Kyle or the Northern Ranger

and went to St. Anthony or Twillingate. Now, Mr. Chairman, after forty years of

progress, after forty years of new opportunity for Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians, the people on the Baie Verte Peninsula have to once again look at

the possibility of sending their spouses away two weeks or two and a half weeks

before delivery time to a boarding house in Corner Brook, or a boarding house in

Grand Falls. And this Government has the gall to get up and talk about their

dedication to rural Newfoundland and Labrador. I say you should be ashamed to

raise your heads.

That is what is happening in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

The hon. gentleman who represents LaPoile, when the winds blow at the Wreckhouse

and you cannot get to Stephenville or Corner Brook and one of his constituents

dies in an ambulance on the Trans-Canada Highway, is the political Minister of

Health going to stand up and take responsibility for it? And that is the reality

of Port aux Basques, just as the reality is that Baie Verte is forty miles off

the Trans-Canada Highway, two and a half hours away from Corner, and two hours

away from Grand Falls. And this Government talks about improving the health care

system in Newfoundland and Labrador. As the administrator of the hospital in

Port aux Basques said, it is crap. That is exactly what it is.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RIDEOUT: You have improved nothing in the health care

system in Newfoundland and Labrador but you have jeopardized a lot: you have

jeopardized the lives of the people out on the southcoast and Port aux Basques,

where the Tory Government, that dirty Tory Government went and built a brand new

hospital five or six years ago, when there was a Liberal Member in the district.

The dirty Tories - how bad they were! - built a hospital in Port aux Basques

with Mr. Neary, a Liberal, representing it, five or six years ago. That is how

uncaring we were. And this hon. crowd have the gall to raise their heads and say

rationalization in the health care system will make a better, more efficient

health care system for Newfoundland and Labrador when the hon. the Member for

LaPoile knows the difference, the hon. gentleman for Placentia knows the

difference, the hon. Member for Trinity - Bay de Verde knows the difference, and

I certainly know the difference when it comes to my constituency. Lives will be

in jeopardy, Mr. Chairman, because of what this Government is doing.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

Shall the resolution carry?

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: I would like to have a few words on this Bill

before the House, as well. Probably I was slow in getting up, but I noticed Your

Honour was somewhat in a hurry to get the piece of legislation through the

House. I apologize to Your Honour for being slow in getting up.

Having said that, let me say that I would not be surprised if

the Member for Placentia, the Member for Bellevue, the Member for Bonavista

South, the Member for Port aux Basques, and the Members for all these other

places which are going to have their health care scuttled in this Province,

would not be in a hurry to get the resolution through the House either. What we

have seen is this Minister of Health taking the axe, the same as he took

$1,027,000 out of the health care budget for the Burin Peninsula this year

compared to what we had last year. In my own district, Mr. Chairman, there is

$1,027,000 less for health care this year than Government gave them last year.

That is the action of this Government. That is their commitment to rural

Newfoundland.

The Leader of our Party just spoke about the new hospital

that was built out in the district of LaPoile to provide health care services to

the people. Also, Mr. Chairman, it was the previous Government which provided a

hospital for the people of Bonavista South over the last few years, an

extension. I remember the hard work done by the former Member and Minister for

Bonavista South, Mr. Morgan. If he were to look back at Bonavista South,

together with other people, and see how the present Member, Mr. Chairman, and

this current Liberal Administration have closed acute care beds, I must say it

would be very discouraging to him. And I would not be surprised, Mr. Chairman,

but that type of action would entice the former Member for Bonavista South to

once again come back into politics. And should he decide to, I can tell the

present Member for Bonavista South that one term is all he would have in this

Legislature. And it should not be any different for any Member to stand there

and then go on CBC television and defend Government cutting the health care

system in this Province, closing hospital beds in every community in rural

Newfoundland.

And the Minister of Education over there, what is he doing to

constituents and people of rural Newfoundland? When I look at the Member for St.

George's, or the Member for Eagle River, or the new Member for Trinity North,

their constituents are going to come in here over the next year for an

education, and this Minister of Education has caused their tuition fees to

increase, has caused the residence fees to increase. And what will happen? The

rich, Mr. Chairman, the multi-millionaire buddies of the Premier, the lawyers

and the doctors, the upper echelon of society in this city, that is who will

have health care, that is who will have an education given to them. The ordinary

individual in rural Newfoundland will not have it, will not be able to afford

it, Mr. Chairman. Is that what the Liberal Government is all about?

Will the Member for Windsor - Buchans be able to go back to

his constituents and tell them that it is in their best interest to increase

education costs for them, to increase tuition, to increase residence fees? Is

that what the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture will be able to do? The

Member for Placentia, and I sympathize with him, he is a friend of mine and has

been for many years, I know he does not take any pleasure in what this

Government has done.

MR. FLIGHT: He got nothing for seventeen years, so

another five years will not hurt him.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, they did not have

representation, from 1982 to 1985. They did not have representation, and still

do not. That is the long and short of that.

Now in my own constituency - today, my colleague for Grand

Bank spoke on it -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Yes. I can say to my colleague for Grand

Falls, I have been in his office and have seen the correspondence that comes to

him from Windsor - Buchans District. That is a fact.

But I want to say to the Minister of Education that today in

this House, Mr. Chairman, as in the past, the Minister has been very careless

with the truth. The Minister of Education is quickly earning a reputation as

being extremely careless with the truth. And today he got up in this Legislature

as it relates to the moving of the Eastern Community College Headquarters from

Burin to Clarenville and tried to defend that action, when at the same time he

is depriving the students of this Province adequate teaching positions, he is

increasing the cost of students to go to University, he is increasing the cost

of residence fees for students at University. He is doing all of this, and at

the same time he will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for one reason

only, and that is political motivation, to take the headquarters, to rob the

headquarters from Burin and put it somewhere else where it will not in any way

improve the educational system for that eastern region. That is what the hon.

the Minister of Education is going to do. Why will he not stand in this House

and tell us - or the Minister of Public Works - how much money they are now

paying on a five year lease for that headquarters. And what is going to happen

to it? I would suspect the owner of the building is not going to forget about

the lease. What is going to happen to that five year lease that is on the

building, taxpayers' money? Is someone in Clarenville going to provide them a

building free? Not likely, Mr. Chairman. That is what is taking place.

What about the transportation costs? When is the Minister

going to come to his feet and tell the people of this Province how much it is

costing to move that educational facility for no educational value? Mr.

Chairman, if there were, I would not be here arguing for it. It has no

educational value. You have a Minister of Education who is prepared to sacrifice

every last child in this Province and deny them a right to an adequate

education; keep the money, Mr. Chairman, cut educational positions, and at the

same time close the headquarters because it is in a Conservative District and

move it to a Liberal District. That is what he is up to; that is what the

President of Treasury Board has been up to and supporting all along.

I do not see anything in the Budget, Mr. Chairman, about the

President of Treasury Board or the Minister of Education or any of the rest of

them throwing in their $8,000 car allowance. I do not hear anything about that.

Yet, they are firing people left, right and centre. I do not hear anything about

a cutback on the wasteful expense accounts, I do not hear anything about the

Minister of Public Works and Services talking about certain issues as they

affect his department, yet we can have the Minister of Education close down a

headquarters in Eastern Newfoundland because it is in a Conservative district.

The Minister of Development, this morning when I asked him a

question on the shipyard in Marystown what did he say? What did he say? He did

not say one word that was true - not one word to the issue that was true. He

talked about the Hibernia deal. Yes, Mr. Chairman, the Hibernia deal that was

put in place was put in place before ever this Government came. He talked about

the Cow Head facility. That was signed and announced and put in place by this

party when we were in Government.

The people of the Burin Peninsula will once again, Mr.

Chairman, be buying plane tickets for mainland Canada. The Premier talked about

bringing every mother's son home. What he meant, I believe, was to have every

mother and father meet their sons and daughters on the mainland. Because nobody

has come home - nobody. The Burin Peninsula has been devastated since this

Government came to power - devastated, Mr. Chairman.

Not one who sits opposite me has any commitment to rural

Newfoundland - nobody, particularly those on the Government benches, although I

would not go so far as to suggest that about my colleague for Placentia. I think

he probably does care about rural Newfoundland. But most of them, Mr. Chairman,

do not care about rural Newfoundland. The backbenchers over there, with the

exception of the Member for Placentia, are prepared to do anything to get into

Cabinet. All you have to do is read some articles that have been attributed to

the Member for St. John's South and you can readily understand what I am talking

about. But what is happening here is that rural Newfoundland has been cut from

the agenda of this administration.

This Government has one commitment, and that is to the elite,

the people with power and money in this Province. I wonder what happened to the

socialist principles of the President of Treasury Board and the Member for

Pleasantville, who ran several times for the NDP in this Province? How could

someone who goes out and