Manitoba Hansard — 13 April 1972 (Sitting 38, 29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-38

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF 1\IANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, April 13, 1972 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 933 1\IR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable memb�rs to the gallery where we have 50 students of Grade 6 standing of the William Osler School. These students are under the direction of Miss Lambert and Miss Greenberg. This school is located in the constituency of River Heights - the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. We also have 70 students of Grade 5 and 6 standing of the John Dafoe School.

These students are under the direction of Mr. Caldwell and Mrs. Sinclair. This school is also located in the constituency of River Heights - the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. :MINISTERIAL STATEMENT HON. HOW ARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to announce that Winnipeg motorists will begin to enjoy the convenience of a second Autopac Drive-in Claims Centre this Monday. Autopac West Winnipeg Drive-in Claim Centre is located behind the Airliner Drive-in at 125 King Edward Street East. With a staff of approxi mately 50 headed by Manager R. Lewis the centre is designed to process approximately 300 claims per day. The West Winnipeg Centre is the second such drive-in claims operation. The North Winnipeg Centre is located at Duff erin and King.

A new South Winnipeg Drive-in Claims Centre is presently under construction due to open in June at 930 St. Mary's Road. All three centres are of identical design featuring an 8, 000 square foot service area with 12 drive-in service bays and a 7, 000 square foot reception office area. The motorist drives inside the centre, the damage to his car is appraised by an estimator while he is discussing his accident report with an adjuster. The individual adjuster is assigned to follow through on each specific claim. The motorist benefits from one adjuster becoming familiar with the situation and handling his claim.

I might mention, Mr. Speaker, that all honourable members are welcome to examine this new drive-in claim centre Monday morning at the time of its opening. :MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. 1\ffi. EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): 1\lr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the Honourable Minister for his statement this afternoon. It is still the opinion of our party that this is an un necessary expense; the service is no better and the private insurance companies should have the right to compete. 1\ffi. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. TABLING OF REPORTS HON.

RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health & Social Development) (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report for the Manitoba Health Services Commission for the year ended December 31st, 1971. There are copies for every member of the House including the Speaker. :MR. SPEAKER: Any other ministerial statements or tabling of reports. Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills, The Honourable Minister of Transportation. Shall we proceed from there? HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Yes, to stand please. :MR. SPEAKER: Very well. Oral Questions.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition, ORAL QUESTION PERIOD :MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry and Commerce, Has the government in their pos session the letter of complaint forwarded by the staff of the Manitoba Development Corporation to the Manitoba Development Corporation Board of Directors concerning the activities of the General Manager of the Corporation?

934 April 13, 1972 MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON.· LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister oflndustry and Commerce) (Brandon Ea st): :Mr. Speaker, I' ll take the question as notice. There is no General Manager appointment at the present time. There is an appointment -- the appointment that 'vas made by the go\•ernment was that of Chairman of the Board but there is no position as such referred to as General :Manager that is filled at the present time. MR. SPIVAK: 1\lr.

Speaker, riot really in the form of a question but I would then direct it on the basis of the General Manager of the Corporation. l\ffi. SPEAKER : The HonoUrable Member for Brandon W es( 1\ffi . EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce , a supplementary question. Would the Minister de termine if such a letter is in posse ssion of the Board of Directors of l\IDC, and if so would he table the letter in the House ? MR. EVANS : Mr.

Speaker , I' m not exactly sure which letter the honourable member is talking about but regardless, if such a letter existed I would say that it's internal to the operer ation of that organization. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON . A. H. 1\IACKLING, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (St. Ja mes): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Honourable Member for Fort Garry asked me for some confirmation of changes in permits, permit fees , pursuant to the administration of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission.

I wish to advise that price increases in occa'sional permit fees and beverage waiters ' licences will come int� effect April 17th. An occasionalliquor permit which allows individuals to give away a limitless amount of liquor or to sell up to 24 units of liquor at social functions will be in creased from S2. 00 to $5. 00. One unit of liquor consists of one bottle of 26 ounce spirits or one case of 24 pints of beer.

The price of occasional sale permits allowing the sale of more than 24 ·un its of liquor will be increased from $2. 00 to SlO. 00 ._ The fee payable for a beverage waiter's licence shall be increased from $1. 50 to S3. 00. I wish to point out to the honourable member that my under standing is that this fee structure has been in existence relatively un changed for about 45 years. The fee structuring as I un derstand it was last reviewed in about 1928.

Iri the interval there have been substantial changes in the costs of administration and it's my un derstanding that the fees that have been provided for will now hopefully cover the admirustrative expense involved. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. · MR . L. R. (BUD) SHER MAN (Fort Garry) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Honourable the Attorney-General for his statement. I would like to direct a question to him, Mr.

Speaker, and ask him whether there is a program in the area of health and social services towards the financing of which the government intends to direct these new revenu es ? 1\ffi. SPEAKER : The Honourable Attorney-General. 1\ffi. MACK LING: Well, 1\Ir. Chairman, of course the Honourable Member from Fort Garry knows that that is a policy question, but ! think that I indicated in my statement that the object of the change in the price of permits was to try and equate the cost of servicing and not to raise funds. 1\ffi. SHERl\IAN: A supplementary question, l\lr. Speaker .

Has the cost of servicing gone up by that great a percentage ? lVffi. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Speaker , I would ju st reflect on the changes in our society since 1928 and I think the honourable member would consider that there have been substantial changes in costs of all things . 1\ffi. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. 1\ffi . J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I' d like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs who is in charge of Autopac.

Could he tell us how it will be possible to get our cars in for appraisal at the Dufferin and King Apprai sal Centre without the use of a tow truck, and if there is damage to automobiles taken in there will Autopac take care of the cost of the damage to those automobiles ? 1\ffi. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of l\Iunicipal Affairs. 1\ffi. PAWLEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, yesterday the honourable member mentioned that a "kook'' had caused damage to another car. I sometimes think that it requires two "kooks" to make one crash.

Apparently what has happened is that the car is -- I assume from the honourable member's statement is not drivable and therefore I can only surmise that a tow truck

April 13, 1972 (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) • • • is required to take it to Dufferin and King. If he would like to wait until Monday we could service it at the King Edward Street garage. 935 MR. WATT: I direct another question to the Minister. How long will it be before cars can safely drive into the centre at Dufferin and King for appraisal? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, approximately 300 to 350 vehicles a day have found no problem in safely driving into the Dufferin and King Drive-in Claim Centre since February 1st, except apparently for one "kook". I\ffi, WATT: A supplementary question. Then, Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister justify why it is that there are plush quarters there for the workers in Autopac when it is not fit or safe to drive into that centre? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it's the first time that I've ever heard a suggestion that the quarters were rather plush. The only thing I can assume is if it's not safe to drive into the claim centre at Dufferin and King there must be something terribly wrong with the driving behaviour of the motorist in question and possibly we should request the Motor Vehicles Branch to look at the driving record. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. Order, please.

Order, please. Order, please. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR, DONALD W, CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, the First Minister indicated last week that he thought he would have an answer by last Friday on the Opachawanau Dam site as to whether or not particular consultants had been applied to it and if there was a decision yet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I did take as notice a question by the Honourable Member for Riel as to whether any investigations and studies being made relative to the possi bility of a dam being constructed at the site referred to, whether such work was being carried out by any consultant firm retained for the purpose or carried out by engineers and staff of Manitoba Hydro. The answer is the latter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce relating to the notice on my desk that the Economic Development Committee will be meeting next Thursday. Would the Minister be prepared to arrange to have the members of the Board of Directors of Manitoba Development Corporation present at the meeting to provide in formation to the members of the committee ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, it is the prerogative of the members of the Com mittee to make some decision as to who they wish to have appear at this committee, not myself. I am not the Chairman of the committee, I am one member of that committee, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. I\ffi. DA VID R. BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, my question will be to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. It's relative to the meeting of the Standing Committee on Economic Development.

Would he arrange to have in the hands of the members of that com mittee up -to-date financial information on the companies in which the government holds a con trolling interest? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. I\ffi, EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I suggest to the honourable member that such requests and such concerns should be brought up at the first meeting of that committee. MR, SPEAKER: ':':'he Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member from Thompson asked me the other day in connection with what, if anything, my department was doing in respect to some alleged threats on the life of the Chief of the Fort Alexander Indian Reserve. I indicated that I would make further inquiry. I 'm satisfied from my inquiries that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have taken what they deem to be reasonable precautions in respect to the alleged threats. I\ffi, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. I\ffi, JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney General.

Could he indicate to the House the amount of money they will raise from the fees just announced and also will there be a sales tax on the increased fees ? I\ffi, MACKLING: I'm sorry I would have to take as notice any particularization of what the increase in fees would amount to. So far as sales tax, no, there are no sales taxes on the permit fees.

936 April 13, 1972 MR . BOROWSKI : I have another question for the Attorney-Gener al. Is he considering taking action against the airlines operating in Manitoba who have up to this point refused to hire males for the job of stewardesses ? MR . MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I haven't had this matter brought to my attention until this question and I 111 take it as an indicatio� of some concern on the part of one person in Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Acting Minister of Mines and Natural Environment.

Regarding the new regulations on fishing on Lake Winnipeg, could the Minister i_ndicate to the House would some licensing provision be provided for the yoUng fishermen who wish to enter that industry ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: 1\Ir. Chairman, the provision with regard to licensing will be - any de cisions made with regard to licensing provisions will be made in terms of the long term inter ests of the fishery. This applies to older fishermen and to younger fishermen. 1\ffi, McKENZIE : A supplementary question on the same subject matt er , Mr. Speaker.

Regarding the exchange of nets that 's proposed next fall will the government compensate the fishermen for the nets that they will be turning in next fall ? MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker , this is a matter which is now under consideration. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Develo pment. MR . TOUPIN : Mr. Speaker , I would like to table answers to an Order for Return made by the Honourable Member for Pembina dated March 22nd, 1972, And :'While I' m on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to reply to two questions made in the House ·- and I'd like to reply in \\Titten form because the answer is too lengthy to read in the House, I' ve got copies for the member that asked the question. The first question was asked by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. The reply is in "Titten form here pertaining to transportation for social allowance recipients, The other question was tsked by the Honourable Member for Thompson pertaining to the rates and the number f abortions performed in the hospitals in Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Morris. 1\ffi, WARNER H.

JORGENSON (Morris) : On a point of order. That suggestion of the Minister is agreeable to this side of the House providing that those answers are printed in Hansard as part of the record. 1\ffi, SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR . SIDNEY GREEN , Q. C. (Inkster): Well, Mr. Speaker, I think if the Minister is trying to accommodate members, he doesn't have to answer , and therefore the answer is not required to be printed in Hansa rd. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member from Morris on the same point again. MR .

JORGENSON : We are attempting to accommodate the Minister by not taking up the time of the House. It is a regular practice in the House of Commons when a Minister has a lengthy answer he just tables it and it 's printed as a part of the record of Hansard. That's all I'm asking. (Agreed) TRANSPORTATION FOR SOCIAL ALLOWAN CE RECIPIENTS I am aware that there have been a number of questions raised in the House relative to the above noted subject. I ha\•e prepared for your review an information piece relativ e to the problem and an indication of what steps we have and are currently taking.

The problem was first brought to my attention during the month of September at which time an investigation was carrie d out and it was determined that the costs appeared to be out of control and that some action was required immediately to curtail the expenditures.

The problem was discussed with the Regional Director for the Dauphin area and he was issu ed with the follow ing _instruct ions: "As a re sult of discussions with the Deputy Minister on the above-noted sub je ct I \\ish to advise that effective immediately medical transportation must be authorized by the worker prior to utilization of taxi services , except in dire emergencies. In our opinion taxi costs of Sll, 000 per month are excessive and must be reduced. We will review this matter as soon as I receive a report on transpor tation".

At the same time a number of regional dir ectors namely Robson, Toews and Ev erett were requested to review the policy in the "emergency and medical transporta tion'' areas with a view

�-- �-- 1 April 13, 1972 937 •.... to developing a more realistic policy. The policy was developed and issued to thefield during the first part of March of this year. (See attached). It was our hope that the policy changes would be sufficient to curtail the skyrocketting expenditures.

Over and above this directive I have recently taken additional steps and have informed the Regional Director of the Dauphin area that effective immediately: - (1) bus transportation only is to be used except in emergency situations; (2) indigenous workers in the area have no authority to authorize transportation - their only authority is to arrange bus trips and appointments, etc; (3) emergency transportation is to be cleared through the Regional Director or the supervisors and if a duty roster is necessary to effect this then it shall be implemented.

We will be monitoring the situation monthly and if the action which we have taken is not sufficient to curtail the cost-spiral then additional steps will be taken. I should point out that we have not eliminated the use of taxis in emergency situations, we have merely implemented a control procedure to prevent misuse and abuse. TRANSPORTATION FOR MEDICAL REASONS {Regulation

Section 2 (f) (vii) ) I. l.vhere recipients require transportation to a medical centre the following methods of transportation siiQulci be used in the ·o:r:der listed: {1) Public transportation (bus, train, or airplane) or recipients own vehicle chargeable at the equivalent rate of the cheapest available public transportation.

(2) If No. (1) is not available, recipients own vehicle at $ . 08 per mile.

(3) If No. (1) and No, (2) are not available a licensed carrier (taxi cab) at approved prevailing rates.

(4) If No. (1), (2), and (3) are not available, a privately owned vehicle at $ • 08 per mile. N . B . 1. Privately owned vehicles cannot be legally hired when a licensed carrier is available in the area. 2. The recipient must hire and pay the owner of the privately owned vehicle and submit receipts in order to be reimbursed by the regional office. At no time should a worker hire or pay the owner of the privately owned vehicle directly. 3. The above priority list of methods of transportation may be altered at the discretion of the regional director in the following situations:

a) when the physical and mental condition of the recipient makes it im possible to use public transportation (eg. a person using a wheelChair, etc.)

b) when related expenses (those other than actual fares) such as meals, hotel, babysitting costs, etc. may result in higher total costs than found in another form of transportation.

c) in emergency situat ions

d) when groups of recipients might be able to use taxis, private vehicles, etc. , more economically than by individually using public transportation.

e) when rural recipients are not able to use the urban bus system. IT Under normal circumstances payment will only be made to provide transportation to the nearest centre where appropriate treatment facilities are available. Under exceptional circumstances this provision may be waived at the discretion of the regional director. (eg. when the recipient has a long standing contact with a doctor other than one who is in practice at the nearest centre or when the recipient has been referred to another doctor by a doctor who is in practice at the nearest centre.) N. B.

Where a recipient chooses to attend a more distant medical centre where trans portation costs are higher, he may do so and claim the lesser amount. liT Control of Possible Abuse: A. No account is to be passed for payment unless the recipient has signed the account or · or the H Form as to services provided. B. Periodically, random samples should be selected from the total caseload and/or from particular communities where there are high transportation costs and these random samples should be investigated for possible abuse.

<.P MANITOBA HEALTH SERVICES COMMISSION \:..:> 00 Theraeeutic Abortions Performed in Manitoba HosEitals Aug. 261 1969 (1) to Feb. 281 1972 Ho spital Victoria Winnipeg Brandon Dauphin Hamiota Shoal Month and Year Grace General General General General District Morden Pinawa Portage Lake Total 1969 Au�. 26-31 September - - 2 - - - - - 1 - 3 October - - 2 - - - - - - - 2 November - - 4 - - - - - 1 - 5 December 1 - 6 - - - - - - - 7 Total 1 - .14 - - - - - 2 - 17 1970 January 1 - 5 - - - - - - - 6 February - - 6 2 - - - - - - 8 March 1 - 7 1 - - - - - - 9 April 1 - 7 2 - - - - - - 10 May - - 11 1 - - - - 2 - M June 2 - 10 - - - - - 1 - 13 July 3 - 17 2 - - - - 1 - 23 Aup,ust 2 - 5 1 - - - - 1 - 9 September 2 - 13 1 - - - - 1 - 17 October 1 - 24 1 - - - - - - 26 November 2 - 51 2 - - - - - - 55 December 3 - 52 2 1 - - - - - 58 Total 18 - 208 15 1 - - - 6 - 248 % or total 7,3 - 83 ,9 6,0 0,4 - - - 2, 4 - 100,0 > '"d ::l. ,_. � .c..:> � <.P -:a !>:>

Hos i t a 1 Victoria Winnipeg Brand on Dauphin Ham iota Month and Year Grace General General General General District -- 1971 January 1 - 33 1 2 - February 2 - 44 4 2 - March 6 - 60 4 - - April 4 11 40 2 - - May 6 10 42 2 - - June 6 16 47 - 1 - July 4 26 31 1 - - August !i 14 43 3 - - September" 4 19 !iO 2 - - October 7 47 !il 4 - - November :3 41 !i1 - - - December 2 49 44 2 - - Total 50 233 536 25 5 - %of total 5,8 27.2 62 .5 2.9 0 ,6 - 1972 January 2 43 38 1 1 - February 2 43 57 3 - -

(1) Date of amendment to Criminal Code respecting therapeutic abortions. Health Statistics Division, M. H. S, C, - Aprfl6, 1972. Morden Pinawa Portage --- - - 1 - - - - - 1 - - - - - 1 - - 1 - - 1 - - - - 1 1 - - 2 - - - - - - - 1 8 - 0.1 0 .9 - - 1 - - - Shoal Lake -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Total -- 38 52 71 57 61 71 63 65 77 111 95 97 8!i8 100,0 86 105 > 'C :;1. ...... f-.' 5"' f-.' .., -1 1>:1 .., � ..,

940 STATISTICS CANADA STATISTIQUE CANADA April 13, 1972 News Release FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Monday, October 4, 1971 SHARP RISE IN THERAPEUTIC ABORTIONS IN FffiST HALF, 1971 OTTAWA -- Therapeutic abortions performed in Canada in the first six months of 1971 totalled 14,188 according to reports to Statistics Canada by hospital authorities in 10 provinces and the Yukon. This is 3, 036 more than the 11,152 therapeutic abortions reported for the full calendar year 1970. Patients with Canadian residence accounted for all but 20 of the 14,188 abortions re ported.

In terms of rates per lOO live births, abortions reported for Canadian residents amounted to 7. 6 per cent of live births (3 per cent in 1970). Rates for the 1971 six-month period for the provinces varied from abou 19 per cent for Ontario, 10 per cent for Alberta, 4 per cent for Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Nova Scotia, less than 2 per cent for Quebec, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland. Further details, including totals of therapeutic abortions and rates by provinces by months in 1971 and quarters 1970 and 1971 are given in the report which follows.

Therapeutic Abortions in Canada, January to June, 1971 This special statement reports on therapeutic abortions performed during the first six months of 1971. The statement is based on

summary monthly information supplied to Statistics Canada by provincial and territorial authorities. Minor amendments to the figures for January to June can be expected when the report for calendar year 1971 is published. The ten provinces and Yukon Territory reported that hospitals under their jurisdiction performed 14,188 therapeutic abortions during the six month period January to June 1971. Patients with Canadian residence accounted for 14,168 abortions, or 99.9 per cent of the total reported, and patients with foreign residence for 20 abortions, or 0. 1 per cent of the total.

Ninety-nine abortions, or 0. 7 per cent of the total were reported for persons resident in a province other than the reporting province. In terms of rates per lOO live births the 14, 178 therapeutic abortions reported for Canadian residents amounted to 7. 6 per cent of live births.

Therapeutic abortion rates for this same six month period for the provinces varied from about 19 per cent of live births for British Columbia; to about 10 and 11 per cent of live births for Alberta and Ontario; to about 4 per cent of live births for Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Nova Scotia; and to less than 2 per cent of live births for the provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland. Quarterly figures for 1970 and for the first 2 quarters of 1971 are presented below and in Tables 4a and 4b.

Increases from one quarter to the next quarter varied from 118 per cent between the first and second quarters of 1970 to 11 per cent between the first and second quarters of 1971. 1970 1971 Item Jan.-Mar. Apr. -JuneJuly-Sept Oct.-Dec. Jan.-Mar. Apr. -June (

a) Number of therapeutic abortions •• 743 1,622 3,156 5,631 6,699 7,469 (

b) Increase in numbers, one quarter over the preceding quarter ••• -- 879 1,534 2,475 1,068 770 (

c) Percentage increase .. . -- 118% 95% 78% 19% 11%

April 13, 1972 941 Further detail is given in Tables 1 to 4. Table 5 shows information regularly published in Statistics Canada publications and republished here for ease of reference. Tables 6 to 8 give information on therapeutic abortions for selected countries and for selected states in the U. S. Public Health Section, Health and Welfare Division, Statistics Canada, Ottawa, 994-5494.

Table 1 -- Therapeutic Abortions by Reporting Province and Residence of Patients, Canada, January-June, 1971 Total Canadian residents Reporting Province/ Area Therapeutic Residents of Residents Residents Abortions Total reporting of other of other province provinces countries All reporting areas •• •••• 14,188 14,168 14,069 99 20 Newfoundland ••• , ••••••• 31 30 30 -- 1 Prince Edward Island •••• 15 15 15 -- -- Nova Scotia •••••••••••• • 278 278 277 1 -- New Brunswick ••• • •••• •• 53 53 53 - - -- Quebec ••••••••••••••••• 869 867 855 12 2 Ontario ••••••••••••••••• 7,310 7,302 7,266 36 8 Manitoba •••••••••••••••• 356 356 342 14 -- Saskatchewan •••••••••• •• 313 313 313 -- - - Alberta ••• ••••••••••••• • 1,522 1,521 1,498 23 1 British Columbia •••••••• 3,436 3,428 3,415 13 8 Yukon ... . . .... . .. . . ... 5 5 5 -- -- *Table 2 -- Therapeutic abortions, registered live births, and abortion rates (number of abortions per 100 live births) by province, Canada, January-June, 1971 Number of Abortion rate Reporting Province I Area Therapeutic Number of per lOO live Abortions live births births All reporting areas •• ••••••••••• 14,168 185,713 7,6 Newfoundland ........... ....... 30 6,402 0.5 Prince Edward Island ••••••••••• 15 1,013 1.5 Nova Scotia .•••••••••.••..•.••. 277 6,891 4.0 New Brunswick ••••••••••••••••• 53 5,841 0.9 Quebec . . .. .. . . . . . . .. . ....... . . 855 49,944 1.7 Ontario ••••••••••••••• ••••••••• 7,266 64,275 11.3 Manitoba ••••••••••••••••••••••• 342 8,942 3,8 Saskatchewan ••••••••••••••••••• 313 9,009 3,5 Alberta ••• •••••••••••• ••••••••• 1,498 15,446 9.7 British Columbia ••••••••••••••• 3,415 17,716 19.3 Yukon Territory ••••••••••••••• • 5 234 2.1 *Notes: (

i) Registered live births relate to the calendar year 1969. (ii) The number of therapeutic abortions for "All reporting areas" does not include figures for patients from other countries. (iii) The number of therapeutic abortions for individual provinces relates only to the residents reported by the reporting province.

942 April 13, 1972 *Table 3a --The rapeutic Abortions by Reporting Province and Month, January-June, 1971 Reporting Total Province I Area Jan�-June Jan. Feb. Mar.

April May June All reporting areas 14,168 1,900 2,231 2,568 2,528 2,431 2,510 Newfoundland •• •• •• • 30 1 4 8 6 6 5 Prince Edward Island 15 1 2 1 3 7 1 Nova Scotia •• ••••••• 277 34 39 62 51 42 49 New Brunswick •••••• 53 6 10 11 10 6 10 Quebec •• ••• •••••• •• 855 126 134 167 157 127 144 Ontario •• ••••••••••• 7,266 860 1,140 1,294 1,334 1,305 1,333 Manitoba •• • ••• •• •• • • 342 36 49 76 56 57 68 Saskatchewan •• • •• ••• 313 43 49 50 57 54 60 Alberta •• ••• •••••••• 1,498 259 221 273 278 241 226 British Col umbia •• •• 3,415 514 567 617 555 566 596 Yukon •• • •• •• •••••• • 5 1 -- -- 2 2 -- *Table 3b --Therapeutic Abrotion Rates (Number of abortions per lOO live births) by Province and Month, January-June, 1971 Reporting Total Province/ Area Jan.-June Jan.

Feb. Mar.

April May June All reporting areas 7.6 6.4 8.1 8.0 8.1 7.3 8.0 Newfoundland •• ••• •• 0.5 0.1 0.4 0.7 0.6 0.5 0.5 Prince Edward Island 1.5 0.6 1.3 0.6 1.7 3.7 0.6 Nova Scotia •• •• •• ••• 4.0 3.1 3.8 5.3 4.4 3.4 4.1 New Brunswick •• •••• 0.9 0.7 1.2 1.1 1.0 0.6 1.0 Quebec •••• •• •• ••••• 1.7 1.6 1.8 1.9 1.8 1.4 1.7 Ontario •• ••• ••••••• • 11.3 8.2 11.8 11.7 12.4 11.5 12.0 Manitoba •• •• � •• •• ••• 3.8 2.4 3.8 5.2 3.6 3.5 4.6 Saskatchewan •• •• •• • • 3.5 2.9 3.7 3.2 3.7 3.5 3.9 Alberta •• ••••••• •• •• 9.7 10.5 9.3 10.2 10.9 8.7 8.6 British Colu mbia •••• 19.3 18.3 21.6 19.8 18.3 17.4 20.5 Yukon ••• • •••••••• •• 2.1 2.6 -- - - 4.7 5.4 -- * See notes to Table 2. *Table 4a -- Number of therapeutic abortions by province and by quarter, 1970-71 Reporting 1970 1971 Province/ Area To tal J-M A-J J-S 0 -D Total J-M All reporting areas •• • 11,152 743 1,622 3,156 5,631, 14,168 6,699 Newfoundland •• •• ; ••• 25 2 2 8 13 30 13 Prince Edward Island. 17 3 2 8 4 15 4 Nova Scotia ••• ••• ••• • 261 19 48 68 126 277 135 New Brunswick •• ••• •• 72 2 25 17 28 53 27 Quebec •••• •• •• ••• ••• 534 33 63 151 287 855 427 Ontario ••• •• •• •••• ••• 5,568 379 850 1,525 2,814 7,266 3,294 Manitoba •••• •• •• • •••• 238 23 34 48 133 342 161 Saskatchewan ••• ••• ••• 215 20 27 56 112 313 142 Alberta •• •••••••• •• •• 1,154 62 144 326 622 1,498 753 British Colum bia •• ••• 2,901 192 406 880 1,423 3,415 1,698 Yukon ••• ••• ••• •• •••• 6 1 2 -- 3 5 1 * See "Cotes to Table 2.

A-J 7,479 17 11 142 26 428 3,972 181 171 745 1,717 4

April 13, 1972 *Table 4b -- Ther.apeutic Abortion Rates (Number of Abortions per 100 live births) by province and by quarter, 1970-71 Reporting 1970 1971 Province/ Area Total J-M A-J J-8 0-D Total J-M A-J All reporting areas •••• 3.0 0.8 1.7 3. 3 6. 4 7. 6 7. 5 7. 8 Newfoundland ••••••••• 0. 2 0.1 0. 1 0.2 0. 4 0. 5 0.4 0.5 Prince Edward Island •• 0. 8 0. 6 0. 4 1. 6 0. 8 1. 5 0.8 2. 1 Nova Scotia •••••••••• 1. 9 0.6 1. 3 1.9 4. 0 4. 0 4. 1 4. 0 New Brunswick ••••••• 0. 6 0.1 0. 8 0.6 1.0 0. 9 1. 0 0. 8 Quebec ••••••••••••••• 0.6 0. 1 0. 2 0.6 1. 3 1. 7 1.8 1.6 Ontario ••••••••••••••• 4. 3 1.2 2.6 4. 5 8. 7 11. 3 10.6 12. 0 Manitoba •••••••••••••• 1.3 0.5 0.7 1. 1 3. 1 3. 8 3. 8 3.9 Saskatchewan •••••••••• 1. 2 0. 5 0. 6 1. 2 2. 8 3. 5 3.2 3. 7 Alberta ••••••••••••••• 3. 7 0. 8 1. 8 4. 1 8. 4 9.7 10.0 9.4 British Columbia •••••• 8.2 2. 2 4. 4 9. 7 16. 5 19. 3 19.9 18. 7 Yukon •••••••••••••••• 1. 3 0.8 1. 8 -- 2.9 2.1 0.8 3. 5 * Rates are based on estimates of 1969 births.

Table 5. Registered Female deaths in Canada, 1966-70 Item 1966 l967 1968 1969 1970 (

a) Female deaths, all ages all causes ••••••••••• 61,950 61,983 63,662 64,241 64,853 (

b) Deaths, females age 15-49, all causes ••••••• 5,779 5,701 5,860 6,143 6,200 (

c) Deaths, females, from deliveries and compli- cations of pregnancy, childbirth and the puerperium -- all ages 135 88 99 77 75 (

d) Deaths, females, from abortions -- all ages 13 8 13 13 14 (1) induced for medical or legal indication -- -- 3 -- 4

(11) Induced for other reasons (criminal; induced without medical or legal indication; self induced) ••••••••••••• 9 4 6 11 5 (111) spontaneous or unspecified and other 4 4 4 2 5 943

944 April 13, 1972 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. Table 6. (

A) Live birth rates per 1,000 population for selected countries, 1963 to 1967. (

B) Abortion rates per 100 live births for the selected countries, 1963-1967. Country 1963 1964 1965 (

A) Live birth rate (Live births per 1, 000 persons) Bulgaria •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• 16.4 16.1 15.3 Czechoslovakia •••••••••••••••••••••••• •• 16.9 17.2 16.4 Denmark •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• 17.6 17.7 18.0 Hungary •••••• 0 ••••••••••••••••••••••••• 13.1 13.0 13.1 Japan ••• ••••• 0 •••••••••••••••••• •• .••••• 17.3 17.7 18.5 Poland o o o o o • o a o • • • o • • o • o o o o o • o o o o o o 0 o 0 o 19.2 18.1 17.3 (

B) Abortion rate (Abortions per 100 live births) Bulgaria ••• •••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••• 63 69 75 Czechoslovakia ••••••••••••••• ••••••••••• 30 29 35 Denmark .... . ... .. . . ..... .. .. . .... . .... 4 5 6 Hungacy •••• ••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••• 131 140 136 Japan ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •• 57 51 46 Poland ••••••••••••••••••• 0 ••••••••••••• 33 32 42 Note: (

i) Source of information: Abortion-Law, Choice and Morality by Daniel Callahan. 1966 14.9 15.6 18.4 13.6 16.7 76 40 6 135 42 (ii) Comparable information for Japan for the year 1966 is not availabie. Table 7 - Abortion rates (Abortions per 100 live births) for the latest available year for selected countries/area s in the world 1967 15.0 15 .1 16.8 14.6 19.3 16.3 79 44 8 126 38 N.A. Abortion rate Country I Area Period 1. England and Wales • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1970 2. Czechoslovakia • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1969 3.

Hungary • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1969 4. Japan • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1968 5. Rumania • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1965 6. Yugoslavia • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1964 7. u .s.A. Dist.

Columbia ••••• ••••••••••••••••••••• July-Dec. 1970 New York •••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••• July-Dec. 1970 Oregon •••• ••• ••••••••••••••• •••••••••• • July-Dec . 1970 California ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• July-Dec . 1970 Colorado •• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• July-Dec. 1970 Georgia • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • July-Dec . 1970 South Carolina ••••••• ••••••••••••• •••• ••• July-Dec . 1970 (For all States and Dist. Columbia see chart on page 8) Source of 1n formation:

(1) The Registrar General's Weekly and Quarterly Returns . (2-4) The Population Council, New York, N. Y. (5-6) Abortion: Law, Choice and Morality - Daniel Callahan . per

(7) Morbidity and Mortality, weekly report, Vol . 19, No. 53, CDC, U.S . PHS. 100 live births 11 46 134 40 40 37 30 29 23 16 7 2 2

April 13, 1972 945 Table 8 - Per cent distribution of induced abortions by ages of women for selected countries Period of Total Under 20-24 yrs . 25-29 yrs. 30-34 yrs . 35-39 s. 40 yrs. Reference 20 yrs . yr & over England & Wales Jan. -Mar .l971 100 20 --------------- 62 ------------ ------ 18 ------- Japan •••• 1968 100 2 18 27 27 18 8 Sweden ••• 1966 lOO 19 23 17 17 15 9 U.S.A . California Jan . -Junel970 lOO 31 32 16 10 6 5 Colorado .Jan-June 1970 lOO 33 29 18 10 11 Georgia •• Jan-June 1970 100 27 24 23 12 8 6 Oregon •• Jan-June 1970 00 34 36 14 9 5 2 South Carolina Jan-June 1970 100 31 33 19 6 9 10 Source of Information:

(1) The Registrar General's Weekly return for England and Wales .

(2) Japan and Sweden : Abortion: Law, Choice and Morality - Daniel Callahan .

(3) U.S.A.: HSl\ffiA Health Reports, May, 1971, U.S. Public Health Service • • • • • • continued on next page

946 April 13, 1972 Number of Therapeutic Abortions per 1, 000 Live Births, United States, July.,-December 1970 RATIOS OF REPORTED LEGAL ABORTIONS TO UVE BffiTHS- By State of Residence, in Rank Order, July-December 1970 ABORTIONS PER 1, 000 UVE BffiTHS 2 2 1 Dist.

Columbia 2 New� York 3 Oregon 4 Hawaii 5 California 6 Massachusetts 7 **Alaska 8 :Ml.ryland 9 Kansas 10 *"\\ashington 11 New Mexico 12 New Jersey 13 Delaware 14 Connecticut 15 Colorado 16 Vermont 17 New Hampshire 18 Rhode Island 19 Michigan 20 Maine 21 Pennsylvania 22 Virginia 23 Ohio 24 Illinois 25 Wisconsin 26 Florida 27 Georgia 28 North Carolina 29 Minnesota 30 South Carolina 31 Iowa 32 Nebraska 33 Indiana 34 Wyoming 35 West Virginia 36 Kentucky 37 Alabama 38 Missouri 39 Tennessee 40 North Dakota 0 Abortion in state 41 South Dakota of residence 42 Oklahoma 43 Louisiana • Abortion performed 44 Missi ssippi in another state n � vada � xas sas 48 Montana ** July 21 -D ecember 31, 1970 49 Arizona 50 Idaho * December 3 -December 31, 1970

April 13, 1972 947 BILL C-150 18 o

Section 23 7 of the said Act is amended by adding thereto the following sub sections: "(4) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to 20 (

a) a qualified medical practitioner, other than a member of a therapeutic abortion committee for any hospital, who

Definitions

(6) For the purposes of subsection 30 (4) and (5) and this subsection, "Accredited (a) "accredited hospital" means a hospital" hospital accredited by the Canadian Council on Hospital Accreditation in which diagnostic services and 35 medical, surgical and obstetrical treatment are provided: in good faith uses in an accredited or ap- 25 "Approved proved hospital any means for the purpose Hospital" of carrying out his intention to procure the (b) "approved hospital" means a hospital in a province approved for the purposes of this

section by the 40 Minister of Health of that province; (c) ''board" means the board of governors, management or directors, or the trustees, commission or miscarriage of a female person, or (

b) a female person who, being pregnant, permits a qualified medical practitioner 30 to use in an accredited or approved hospital any means described in paragraph (

a) for for the purpose of carrying out her inten- tion to procure her own miscarriage, 35 "Board" other person or group of persons 45 having the control and management of an accredited or approved hos pital; if, before, the use of those means, the thera peutic abortion committee for that accredited or approved hospital, by a majority of the members of the committee and at a meeting "1\linister (d) "Minister of Health" means (

i) of Health" in the Provinces of Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Manitoba, Alberta, Newfoundland, and Prince Edward Island, the Minister of Health, 5 of the committee at which the case of such female person has been reviewed, (

c) has by certificate in writing stated that in its opinion the continuation of the preg nancy of such female person would or would be likely to endanger her life or health, and 5 (

d) has caused a copy of such certificate to (ii) in the Province of British Columbia, the Minister of Health Services and Hospital Insurance, (iii) in the Provinces of Nova 10 Scotia and Saskatchewan, the Mini ster of Public Health, and be given to the qualified medical practitioner. (iv) in the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories, the Min ister of National Health and Wel- 15 fare;

(5) The Ilfinister of Health of a province "Qualified (e) ''qualified medical practitioner" may by order 10 medical means a person entitled to engage (

a) require a therapeutic abortion corn- practition- in the practice of medicine under the mittee for any hospital in that province, er laws of the province in which the 20 or any member thereof, to furnish to him hospital referred to in subsection a copy of any certificate described in para- (4) is situated; and graph (

c) of subsection (4) issued by that ''Therapeutic (f) "therapeutic abortion committee" committee, together with such other in-15 abortion for any hospital means a committee, formation relating to the circumstances committee" comprised of not less than three 25 surrounding the issue of that certificate members each of whom is a quali- as he may require, or 20 fled medical practitioner, appointed by the board of that hospital for the purpose of considering and deter (

b) require a medical practitioner who, in that province, has procured the miscarri- age of any female person named in a cer tificate described in paragraph (

c) of sub section (4), to furnish to him a copy of that certificate, together with such other in- 25 formation relating to the procuring of the mining questions relating to termin- ations of pregnancy within that hos- 30 pi tal. Require-

(7) Nothing in subsection (4) shall be ment construed as making unnecessary the ob of con- taining of any authorization or consent sent that is or may be required, otherwise 35 not than under this Act, before any means miscarriage as he may require 0 oclaimed, A ug ust 2 6, 1969) affected .are used for the purpose of carrying out an intention to procure the miscarriage of a female person."

948 April 13, 1972 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina, MR,GE ORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): My question is for the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Who is responsible for the issuing of fishing licenses on Lake Winnipeg? l\ffi, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: The Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management is responsible, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR.

GABRIEL GIRARD (Emerson): I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Youth and Education, I wonder if he can advise the House whether there will be changes in the Foundation Program grants for the year 1972; and if so when these will be announced? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education, HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): The honourable member, I am sure, Mr. Speaker, will recall comment on that in the Budget speech; and insofar as 1972, the answer is no. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON.

RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour): Mr, Speaker, I wonder if I may have the privilege of the House to refer to the conduct of proceedings in the House for the information of honourable members.

I'm not suggesting that if the Honourable Member for Arthur had a question that this should preclude him from asking the same; but the other day I made an announcement of a change in the order in which Estimates would be considered, and at that time I announced that the Estimates of the Mines and Resource Department would move up following Agriculture and Co- operatives, It is now deemed that this will not be feasible and it is our intention that following the consideration of the Estimates of Agriculture and Co-oper atives, that the Capital Supply Estimates and the Department of Finance will follow.

At this date 1\fi'. Speaker it doesn •t seem to me as though this would be ahead of say, say on Tuesday, due to the intense interest of members of the House on the Budget Debate, the vote of which takes place Monday evening, I thought that it would only be fair for me to indi cate as soon as I could to honourable members the suggested change for their advice and proceedings. MR. WATT: Well, Mr. Speaker, I hope that this doesn't preclude me from a further question on • • • MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR.

WATT: I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, Industry and Commerce. I wonder if the Minister could indicate to the House what the situ ation is, as of today, or as of yesterday, on the serious flooding conditions in the Souris Valley. 1\ffi, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I undertook to inform members of this House on current conditions with regard to flooding prospects anywhere in this Province, A matter of a day or two ago I made an announcement on the current situation with respect to the Souris River.

I had indicated earlier that I would report as conditions changed-with any substance, and because I have no report today it means that there has been no substantial change to my knowledge since the last report of a day or two ago. ORDERS OF THE DAY - BUDGET DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: The proposed Motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance, and the amendment thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition and the sub-amendment thereto by the Honourable Member for Portage La Prairie. The Honourable Member for St, Vital, He has a further twelve minutes left. MR, JAl\IES WALDING (St, Vital): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I had almost finished at 5:30 yesterday, I just had one further point that I was working up to at that time. Just to recap briefly, I had pointed out to members the number of deductions enjoyed by farmers in this province, that they are able to deduct from their income tax returns such things as property taxes, hydro bills, telephone bills, that they enjoy the use of purple gas and such like. I was attempting to show, Mr. Speaker, that these concessions amount to what is a sub stantial subsidy • • • l\ffi, SPEAKER: Order, please, I should like to indicate to honourable members that I

April 13, 1972 949 (MR. SPEAKER cont'd) . . • am having very great difficulty hearing what's going on. I am trying to determine what the Honourable Member for St. Vital is saying, but it is not coming through because there is too much other noise. The Honourable Member for st. Vital. !lffi, WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I was attempting to make the point that the farmers of Manitoba receive a substantial subsidy in the way of these tax deductions and that it is degrading and an insult to farmers that they must subsist only by means of these tax dodges , or tax deductions that they give them. Mr.

Speaker, to look at this problem from a slightly different angle, 1 have noticed that most of the representatives of farmers in this province are represented on the Opposition benches , and that it is precisely those members, Mr. Speaker, who speak most vehemently against labour , and who speak most loudly against labour unions , and who oppose most vigor ously any increase in the minimum wage in Manitoba.

And it's not too clear whether the opposition politicians do so because these are the views of their constituents, or whether the views of their constitutents are held because of what they are told by our friends opposite. To get back to the previous point, it seems that the farmers of Manitoba identified with business , partly through these deductions which are given to them, on the same basis as business.

But are farmers, in fact, serving their best interests by identifying with business: And if compare the two groups, business and labour , we find that business bas the financial power , it has the political power, but more so it has the power to pass on cost increases to the purchasers of its goods . We find, on the other hand, that labour has political power , and that through its organization and through its efforts is able to maintain over the years just about the same proportion of the output of its productivity.

So then we have these two powerful groups and on the other hand we have the farmers who do not have these powers, they do not have the power to pass on price increases , they do not have the political or the economic power of business or of labour. But farmers have been told by my friends opposite that for decades , Mr. Speaker, that their interests lie with the interests of business , and they have been encouraged in this belief by being given such tax deductions as I have outlined.

Now it is obvious to anyone looking at the plight of the farmer that this really didn't get the farmers anywhere, That not having the power of business, that they have not increased their economic position the same way that business has . Therefore I would suggest to my friends on the other side that they compare the farmer more closely with business, with labour , and with labour unions. Having failed on the one hand, why not try the other ?

There is , I am told , a National Farmer 's Union in this country - and a union, if I might refresh the memory of my friends opposite, exists to serve its membership, and to promote their interests , and if my friends opposite wish to serve the best interests of their farmer constituents, then they should encourage those farmers to join the union, to work for the best benefits of that union, and to show that this is where the best interests of farmers in Manitoba do, in fact, lie. 1\IR, SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. l\IR , GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie) : .•• question.

Would he mind identifying those politicians who are anti-union on this side ? !lffi , SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for St. Vital. l\IR , WAL DING: I would suggest to the Member for Portage la Prairie that he read Hansard for the last ten years, pick out any year that he wants to and he will find plenty of examples. MR, G, JOHNSTON: Would the honourable member mind answering my question because there are members on this side who have been members of unions ? !lffi, SPEAKE R: Are you ready for the question ? The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. 1\ffi. HENRY J. EINAROON (Rock Lake) : Mr.

Speaker, in rising to speak to the Budget Debate having just listened to the words of ·wisdom from the Honourable Member from St. Vital, I can't help but feel the comments he had made - - yes , I'm sure he probably considers them words of wisdom, but where he received them it's hard to say. First of all I would like to ask him what farmer member on this side of the House has spoken out against labour, labour as such ? l\Ir. Speaker, I was quite sure the Minister of Finance would say the Honourable Member from Pembina.

One of the things that the Honourable Member from Pembina is concerned - the minimum wage as it may apply to some rural businesses. Sorry , Mr. Speaker, I didn't hear the Honourable :i\1inister of Finance •.• did he say Pembina or Charleswood ? He said it was Charleswood. Speaking of the minimum wage is another matter as opposed to speaking of labour in

950 April 13, 1972 (MR. EINAROON cont•d) • • • general. And I want to suggest to my honourable friend that he go out to the country, go and visit farmers, go and visit businesses in small towns, have a talk with them, and have a talk with the people who are employed. After listening to the comments the Member from St. Vital has made, he has a lot to learn, Mr. Speaker, of what this province of ours is all about. It's appalling, Mr . Speaker, that one should hear such words from honourable members on the other side of this House.

We, on this side of the House believe that anyone who is working, does a day's work, deserves a day's pay. None of us have ever said that anyone should be deprived of that. But the fact is , Mr. Speaker, honourable members opposite are not aware of the real conditions of our rural communities , and I might say in our cities as well.

So when he talks about labour and unions, in all the agricultural meetings thatwe held in the Province of Manitoba - - and here when I say the Province of Manitoba, I want to say to the Minister of Agriculture, he forgot all about southern Manitoba and southwestern Manitoba for the last two years, so when he talks about establishing policy, he is not establishing for the whole province - - but when we were conducting our agricultural meetings in those parts of the province that we did go to, we had a number of occasions where farmers, businessmen were concerned about the level of our wages.

Sure they want to pay a living wage to all their employees, and I, for one as a business man am a farmer, and I want to do the same thing. But I asked the questions on a number of occasions when the opportunity rose, and when it was appropriate to ask, and I have asked. When we talk about conditions, labour conditions, management conditions - - and I am not singling out the labour unions in this case - - I have asked the question time and time again: Do you think that labour and management are accepting their responsibility to themselves and to the rest of the society of this country ?

This has been a question that has been debated on many occa sions wherever you may travel, Mr. Speaker. So much for the labour situation and unions. Getting back to the Department of A,-i culture as it pertains to our budget, I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that I can understand the Minister's ·po sition. We have had an increase in the budget; as of 1970 it was approximately $10 million. MR . EINAROON: That budget went up by 23 percent in '71 , to $1 2, 600 ,0 00 thereabouts , and then this past year to just over S16 million, which is an increase of roughly 60 percent in the past two years. Now I welcome, Mr.

Speaker, the Cabinet of this government seeing fit to grant further funds to the industry of Agriculture because I agree, and I think the Minister and I agree on this point, it is an industry that is one of the most important we have in our province and if not in this nation. But granting that increase, Mr. Speaker, and how we look upon administering the department is an area in which we disagree. That amount of money as an increase to his department is something that we are going to peruse when we get back to the Estimates.

We are going to ask questions as to why the increase in the various areas of his department, and if having given satisfactory answers , I will then commend the Minister on having achieved the purpose of the increased amount of money that has been allocated to A,-i culture. But I am very concerned, Mr. Speaker, because he's established a number of boards to administer that in dustry, he has talked as well as the First Minister has on the Pork Producers Board that has been established.

He has sort of given the impression to the farmers of this province that as a result of this Board prices of hogs have gone up and gone up substantially. I, Mr. Speaker, cannot entirely go along with that idea because I think I did indicate to the Minister some of the reasons why it is just not so. Mr. Speaker, while I am on the subject of Agriculture, I would like to deal briefly '1\ith an

article that I read in the Manitoba Co-operator . This

article is dated January 27, 1972, when the Minister spoke at the Outlook Conference and I should like to read this article, l\lr. Speaker, to quote: "The Boards may take control of food costs". When I saw that. heading I was quite interested in what it contained and to quote again elaborating on a speech the Minister of Agriculture made at the recent Farm Outlook Conference in Brandon called "Prospect '7 2": ''Agriculture Minister Sam Uskiw stated that marketing boards may be told to tell grocers what they can charge customers unless farmers start getting a bigger share of the food dollar.

This would be , in addition, setting prices paid to the producers. The Minister said that government marketing boards already have the authority to set the retail price of food and that he wouldn't hesitate for a minute to recommend that they use their power if farmers continue experiencing depressed prices for their commodities. He said this - his comments were aimed specifically at meat processors who determine the market price for farmers through daily auctions of

April 13, 1972 951 (MR. EINAR&:>N cont'd) ..•.. livestock. Mr. Uskiw said there appeared to have been only a few irregularities since the system was adopted recently but added, if the industry starts playing games with the system and we come to the conclusion it 's not of any value, marketing boards could move into their own system of price setting overnight. '' Well , Mr. Speaker, if I may quote on this

article I think there is one area where the Minister and I will come to an agreement. I want to make myself abundantly clear in this area, Mr. Speaker, that he and I think, both realize that farmers have certainly had an economic problem over the past few years , and something has to be done about it to rectify that matt er. But I want to say, Mr. Speaker, his method and approach of trying to solve that problem and my approach I' m afraid just don't go together. I wonder if the Minister remembers - and he's talking here in this

article about meat packing plants. I would like to know, Mr. Speaker, has the Minister of Agri culture gone over to St. Boniface, visited the Canada Packers, Swifts and Burns. Has he actually gone in there and talked to the management of those packing plants to discuss the matter of marketing of our red meats in this province? Has he actually discussed these things with them ? I can say, Mr.

Speaker, I'm a farmer as well as a politician and I have hauled my own cattle to these places many many times and I have discussed with them and I at one time thought the packing company was the root of evil of the farmer insofar as prices were concerned I wonder if the Minister remembers when Manitoba Pool Elevators went into the business, into the meat packing busi ness in Brandon ? And you know what happened, Mr. Speaker ? They thought that this was the area in which the meat packing plants were robbing the farmer.

But you know they went into business and they found out that it just wasn't so and the result was that they went broke. It wasn't a money paying proposition, So, Mr. Speaker, I become concerned when the Minister starts talking like this. I under stand the farmer's problem and I want to do all I can to help solve it. I sure do. But, Mr. Speaker, we'll not do it by the methods that the Minister of Agriculture in this province chooses to do so, This article, Mr.

Speaker, indicates one thing to me and I never thought that it would ever develop to this, that I thought, you know, the First Minister was a pretty reasonable fellow, but I believe they're all becoming obscessed with the same thing. They're becoming drunk ·with power insofar as solving the problems of agriculture. And you are not going to do it in that manner. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, to the First Minister and to his Minister of Agri culture, that if they want to do something to help the farmer, because we can't do without the meat packing plants, we can't do without the retail stores , they're all part of this , and I think it would be much more sensible if they all got together and sat around the same table and discussed their various problems, Then I think, Mr. Speaker, we'd have some grounds onwhich we could begin to establish an area by which we could probably do something for our farmers of this province.

But when the Minister starts talking like this to an Ou tlook Conference, my God, · Mr . Speaker, the outlook for 1972, Heaven forbid ! You know the other night, or last night the Attorney-General was referring to the Budget insofar as the agricultural figures were concerned and the way he spoke demonstrated to me that he too lacked the capacity to understand even the most elementary arithmetic insofar as it affected the statistics of our Department of Agri culture. You know, Mr.

Speaker, when we look at the figures of our realized net income for 1970/71 and then you look down the column of our actual net income of 70/71, there's quite a difference, And I should like to repeat, Mr. Speaker, I know my colleague the Honourable Member from Morris has done this but I think it should be repeated again because it's so significant and it 's so important, Mr. Speaker, that the people say in a city have a better understanding of the farmer's economic position in this province.

In 1970, our realized net income was 96 milli on, in '71 it was 94 some odd million which was a reduction, but the Mini ster he would like to say and like to think because he's been the Mini ster of Agriculture for two of three years that things have suddenly improved economically for the farmers of Manit oba, so he uses the net income of 1970 as being 80 million and 71 as being 160 million. And here I think, if I remeber correctly, the Honourable Member from Morris indicated that this was not the actual picture of the farmer's income because the real ized net income , Mr.

Speaker, is the actual net income that he receives in that given year. I should like, :Mr. Speaker, just to make a comparison here to the honourable members opposite and compare it with a wage earner who works twelve months of the year. - Supposing he took the

952 April 13, 1972 (MR. EINAROON cont 'd) ••••• last six cheques of the last six months of his employment and didn't cash them, held them in abeyance unt il the next year and then cashed them in; this is what we're talking about and this is what I'm speaking of, Mr. Speaker, in comparing it with the actual economic situation that the farmer finds himself in Mani toba, There were a number of problems that were presented to us , Mr. Speaker, when we were travelling around the Province of Manitoba, We dealt with the cost of educat ion, we dealt with cattle rustling and a number of other matters.

I' d like to think of one of them - we're talking about cattle rustling and the Attorney-General seemed to take it very lightly, Somehow I think the Minister of Agriculture has failed to communicate with the Attorney-General on this particu lar matter. When I think and recall one meeting we attended up in the northwest corner of the province where farmers had lost throughrustlers , 72 head of cattle just in one community and where a farmer had -- and I think they proved one case where a rustler was caught , he was fined $35,0 0 for stealing a steer weighing around 1000 pounds. Well you know, Mr.

Speaker, what kind of a deterrent is that insofar as the law is con cerned to stamp out rustling ? I think , Mr. Speaker, that the :Minister of Agriculture here either couldn't get to the rest of his colleagues or he has failed in this particular area. Speaking of other matters such as - people have conveyed to me the message that we're going overboard in this province in the area of welfare. Welfare has become so easy to get that it's destroying the initiative of the individual to really get out and work and provide for himself. This , Mr. Speaker, is not in all cases , don't get me wrong on this.

But people are telling me there are far too many cases. You know, Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry the Minister of Health and Development is not in his chair , but I would like to use one case in my own area. When we talk about welfare there's another matter that has not been brought into this House, Mr. Speaker. I don't know why but I'm going to take the bull by the horns this time and I' m going to bring it in. And that is when we talk about welfare we must bring in the social workers of this province. I want to make it abundant ly clear, Mr.

Speaker, that a person, a man or woman who decides to take on that profession of becoming a social worker in this province is taking on a very brave and a very challenging profession. I don't want to underestimate that .

Those people have a tremendous responsibility because when they're called upon to go out into a community whether it be in the City of Winnipeg or whether it be in Brandon or Pilot Mound or where have you or any munici pality to visit someone who is in need, they have to interview these individual people - I' ve asked the question on many occasi ons , asked it of local government people such as councillors, reeves , mayor, doctors what have you, responsible people in a community , after a social worker has interviewed that person who is requesting welfare, whether they ever interviewed those government people and I have yet to hear at any time where they have done this.

I think it's very important, Mr. Speaker, and I' m not saying -- probably there are many social workers who are doing an admirable job but I' ve had some experience where some of them are not . They are not fulfilling their responsibilities. To give you an example, Mr. Speaker, when we were on the Agricultural Committee I believe it was up in Rossubrn where the reeve of the municipality said that a social worker had been told when they went out to interview a prospective customer that he or she was told that they had to get another customer on the line or their job was in jeopardy, Now, Mr.

Speaker , I would like to relate this matter to an experience I had myself. I had a particular problem in my constituency, I phoned a social worker and I must say I got immediate response, this was excellent and I appreciated it. Now, when the social worker went to visit this particular party, he called into the town and looked up this person and said, I under stand -- this is the story that I received, Mr . Speaker , -- I understan d that you 're on the list for relief of Mr. Henry Einarson.

This person looked at the social worker with the greatest indignation - you know people do have pride in themselves -- and told the social worker to go out the door they came in, To be fair with the social worker, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I took the matter to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development, I gave it to him verbally. He said, "I will look into it''. He said, '1 don't like that. " I said '1 want to get both sides of the story ." A couple of months later I checked with him and he said he checked it out and he said it was negative. So, Mr.

Speaker, I happened to be in that town about three weeks later and I went to these people and I asked them - had anyone -- or course when this is done, Mr. Speaker, I would think that an outsider would do some investigating on this matter. I don't know what the

April 13, 1972 953 (MR. EINARSON cont'd) ••••• Minister of Health and Social Development is doing in this regard because surely I think, he must get many requests like this or must hear many problems of this kind. He was supposed to have gone out and made this investigation and these people they informed me later that no one had ever been out to see them to check to see if this was correct that this social worker had made this comment. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, -- and I was very disappointed to hear that from my con stituents .,.- I now have my doubts whether the Minister really did investigate this case.

That's why I say, Mr. Speaker, I only wish he were in his seat. I have my doubts, Mr. Speaker, be cause I have heard where some social workers become so political and they have political am bitions as well at the same time while they perform their duties. Mr. Speaker, are you aware of any case of this ever happening? --(Interjection)-- I ask the Speaker; I'm not making com ments, I'm asking him a question. So, Mr.

Speaker, I want to say - the thought that I want to leave with the members of this House and the people of this province , when we talk about welfare and we talk about all the people receiving welfare, this is a real problem, but we also have to be concerned -- and here again, I don't want to underestimate those people who are charged with the responsibility of providing or assessing the individuals that request it. Mr.

Speaker, there has been considerable debate on the Budget debate that the Minister of Finance has brought down, the amount of money that the people of this province look forward to spending and we certainly are becoming very concerned about just where are we going. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have another

article here I think that it's. timely, it's an

article of another country, of a country that the First Minister thought was the model government for any province or any country to follow. That country is Sweden, Mr. Speaker.

I asked for an Order for Return last year -- and I've had many people ask me about this, I thought maybe they were aware of it -- but I asked for an Order for Return on the cost of sending the Minister of Health and Social Development to Sweden, to other countries , and the Order for Return showed almost $18 , 000 if my memory serves me correctly, Sir , for the trip that was made to Sweden and other countries by this government to investigate and to look and examine the way in which that government is run in Sweden. Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it's timely that I should put in for the records an

article here that tells you of the situation in Sweden today, an

article that was sent to me by a high school student, high school student who says, ''If possible bring to the attention of Mr. Schreyer". So, Mr. Speaker, I should like to read this article. It says: "Socialism on the rocks. Prime Minister Olof Palme of Sweden recently had to appear in per son to pacify a demonstration of some 6, 000 outraged housewives protesting the high prices of food. This is only one of the indications of a seething dis content in what used to be known as Europe 's social paradise.

The women's demonstrations were the outward manifestations of a deep seated malaise that is rapidly proving the bankruptcy of the social program of the Swedish Government. A regime that for years has been sanctimoniously preaching at western govern ments, admonishing them to take a leaf out of Sweden's own book and see the light. The pro gram is bankrupt, as are so many of Sweden's business firms no longer able to support the ever-increasing wages and skyrocketing taxes that pay for the type of mass welfare such as is the Swedish health service.

"The unions have been relentlessly after higher wages; to prevent a general strike the government has promised the employers to abolish price controls and the moment the lid is lifted up go the prices and the worker who has just pocketed a huge increase sees that his wage packet buys less than before. The ubiquitous welfare was to be paid out of rising productivity but of course the welfare programs militate against productivity. A worker who works over time, or gets an extra job, or in general through his effort makes more money, finds that various welfare props are then removed.

His rent rises as his increased income no longer makes him eligible for rent subsidy, while at the same time higher taxes eat up most of his extra earnings and he realizes that his zeal to increase productivity is actually reducing his living standard. So he signs off sick, his income drops to the accepted equalized level, and productivity drops to the level that demands the entire taxes of those with ability to pay. And the impoverished middle classes take over to the streets.

"As 'T he Time' of London writes, it is impossible to maintain a high standard of living in a country with very high direct taxation and strong inflation unless there is a remarkable economiC growth at the same time, and there has been no economic growth, nor is there any prospect of it, both because of a socialist system that discourages individual incentive and

954 April 13, 1972 (MR. EINARs::>N cont'd) • because Sweden is being frozen out of the European Common Market. She can't let go of her neutrality and the E CM members are not anxious to import Swedish socialist methods , Swedish inflation, and Swedish preaching, What was once touted as the west 's promised land looks like any other country with a welter of social problems. Indeed it looks remarkably like what Manitoba threatens to become if we go on the way we have been going, the Swedish way, " Weil, Mr. Speaker, I have friends in the City of Winnipeg, Here I quote from an article, -- (Interjec tion)-- I quote from the

article , but I also have friends in this city who are of Swedish origin, who were born and raised their early life in Sweden. They have been over to that country - they were over there about a year and a half ago during elections and they gave me firsthand information, Mr. Speaker. Information that confirms everything that has been stated in this article, everything that has been stated in this article, And I suggest to you, 1\Ir.

Speaker, and I think the time is coming when people in this province are going to realize the errors of their ways, Beca use I am one who believes that if someone who is ill, or through no fault of his own, is not able to provide for himself and his family that I as one, as a taxpayer and who has the fortune of looking after myself am prepared to help that person. But , Mr.

Speaker, when we develop programs such as this government is doing to provide for those -- and here some people say that it's their right to demand things that really are not their right unless the y're prepared to work for it , we can carry this whole program overboard to the point where it will make our country bankrupt, and I literally mean that . And so, Illr.

Speaker, with those few comments I want to say that looking at our budget and the way in which the Minister of Finance -- and I think he' s done a rather admirable job if he's able to pull the wool over the eyes of the taxpayer -- in saying that he's going to collect the tax money - he's taking it out of my pocket now you know to the left pocket , and he's going to take it out for this year , and he's going to take it out for next year, to give me back next year maybe, only maybe, because he's used a pretty clever way of doing it , Mr. Speaker.

When he s ays in order to get your school tax rebate you've got to file it with your income tax return, -- (Interjection)-- nothing wrong with it, That's your view. --(I nterjection) -- No, no, that 's -- no, no, Now the Minister of Finance wants to try to put words into my mouth and say well maybe I don't file income tax. The point I'm trying to make is that he's taking out of my pocket this year , or next year , and I have to wait until next April 30th, and maybe three months after that before I get my refund, I don •t know.

Because how many people when they file re turns they don't file till the 30th of April, or thereabouts, th.ereabouts. Illr. Speaker, they might think they fool some of the people but they are not going to fool all of the people because in my view it could well be this is an election budget. This could well be, l\lr. Speaker, that it's an election budget. Time will tell, Mr. Speaker, that if it 's good -- (Interjection)-- That's my view. I think this probably is the strategy that they'r e using. Time will tell , l\Ir. Speaker, whether it's going to work.

It reminds me , l\lr, Speaker, of that socialist who stood on the rostrum speaking with one hand in his pocket as a capitalist and the other hand in the other pocket as a socialist - well, you know Mr. Douglas what happened to him. Well as I understand it , Mr. Speaker, the way in which this is working they're going to collect about, approximately S 19 million this year , and possibly more next year , and what is it , the amount that will be paid out in the way of tax rebates , roughly S34 million next year . And so I think, l\Ir.

Speaker, this could be misleading to the people and at the same time they talk about the capital monies that are going to be allocated for the various things in this province.

And my Leader who talked about the deficit, and he compared his figures with the IIIinister of Finance when the Minister of Finance said the deficit is just over S2 million but they cleverly manipulated the figures so that the amounts of money that my Leader showed were approximately S95 million deficit, they took monies out of current expenditures and put it into capital, and this way they could sort of cover the financial picture in such a way that it would be acceptable to the people of the province. So , l\Ir. Speaker, I say to the people of Manitoba beware. Beware, :l\Ir.

Speaker, of the socialistic philosophy, you fool some of the people some of the time but you'll not fool all of the people all of the time. Thank you,

April 13, 1972 955 MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JE NKINS (Logan): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. l\lr. Speaker, in rising to take

part in the Budget Debate - I really hadn' t intended to - but really because the Honourable Member from Morris seemed to be quite perturbed about the time that the government mem bers were taking in Estimates. I thought that perhaps I would not use my privilege to take

part in the Budget Speech Debate but lo and behold I received a personal invitation, I think all the other members of the backbench did too, from the Honourable Leader ofthe Opposition, and if I might quote from Hansard of April lOth and quote the Honourable Member for River Heights when he said: "I would say to the members on the backbench, and I'm going to be addressing the members on the backbench, I am going to ask the members of the backbench to recall in their own mind exactly how much detail you understood when you okayed the Minister and said to him to go and present his plans." You know I accepted, as other members of the backbench have accepted, and you know, Mr.

Speaker, I have yet during any time that members of the backbench have been up to speak to see the Honourable Member for River Heights, the Leader of the Opposition, in here to hear our answers. Ra.nk discourtesy I would say. You know, Mr. Speaker, he also accused the Minister of Finance of playing a hoax, playing a hoax on we on the backbench and the people of Manitoba. Well, Mr. Speaker, per haps I should suggest to the Leader of the Oppo sition that he should take a course in com prehensive reading.

You know everybody got this copy of the Budget Speech Debate, or the contribution from the Minister of Finance, and I want to congratulate him on the fine form that he presented it in, and I would refer honourable members and especially the Leader of the Op position to Page 17, and I quote: "Members will be interested in some specific details of the credit plan for 197 2." And the Minister of Finance listed all the various ways that this money would be paid out. At no time, Mr. Speaker, at no time whatsoever did the Minister of Finance suggest that this was going to be a negative income tax.

It was a tax credit and if the Leader of the Opposition can not comprehend that then I suggest that he take a course in comprehensive reading and understanding. It states here on Page 17: "No eligible person will receive benefits in excess of his school property taxes or rental equivalent for the year." You know we' ve heard also from the Member for Portage la Prairie who was delivering his contribution on the debate from the Speech from the Throne -- (Interjec tion) _:... Well I' m giving him the benefit of the doubt that it was his contribution.

I'm not suggesting that it was someone else's -- where he said that the Honourable Minister of Finance introduced his budget in an inflamatory and political manner. Well, gentlemen of this Chamber, if we don't talk politics in here, where do we talk politics? Out on the street ? I always thought that this was a political House where politicians were elected to. He said also, and perhaps as my honourable colleague has suggested, perhaps it was someone else who said it for him, or wrote in for him, that this wasn't an expansionary budget .

Well any time that you can put $28 million into the pockets of the spenders and the taxpayers of the Province of Manitoba they're going to spend it. What are the old age pensioners going to do with the money that they re cei\•e? Save it up for their old age? The y're already there. They'll spend it - and if that doesn' t expand the economy, what won' t? Now, l\Ir. Speaker, I would like to refer to the contribution made by the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney, and it's unfortunate that he's not here. Oh he is here! I' m glad to see that he is here.

And on Page 833 -- you know I just want to correct a point here because I don' t think that he intended to leave this impression - but he left an impression that I also saw printed in the newspapers, and it disturbs me because you know I think the news papers print or try to be as factual as possible and I say that as members of the fourth estate that they owe a responsibility to the public just as much as we that are --(I nterjec tion)-- as much responsibility to the public as we as elected representatives. Because in many respects l\Ir .

Speaker, they're molders of the public opinion, and they reported in the press where the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney has said that there was only 9. 1 percent of the tax paying population of Manitoba paying over SlO, 000, and they were all O\'er here on the back bench, all over here, we're the. ones. The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney receives $9, 600 indemnity, plus $500. 00 for research . . . the members over there are also part and parcel of this 9. 1 group.

So I' m sure that the Honourable :Member for Souris-Killarney didn't want to leave that impression, and I just wanted to draw it to the attention of the press and to the members of this House. --(I nterjection)-- You may when I'm finished, when my 40 min utes, or whatever time I take. will be up I'll be very glad to answer the honourable member.

956 April 13 , 1972 (MR. �NKINS cont'd) ..... You know, Mr. Speaker, there was some comments made, and I believe the Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie when my colleague the Member for St. Vital finished his con tribution to this Throne Speech Debate and he said --(Interjection)-- or Budget, pardon me -- where are these people on the other -- on that side who are anti union and what not?

You know there was a statement made the other evening here by one member -- I know he sub sequently retracted it -- that such and such a union leader was a crook and that he was in penitentiary, or he had been in penitentiary. There are many union members, and I'm sure the members of the -- I don' t know what union is up in Flin Flon --(Interjection)-- Steel workers? Well to my knowledge the President of the United Steelworkers of America has never been in jail. --(Interjection)-- Now the Honourable Member for Charleswood wants to know about James Hoffa. Well we all know about James Hoffa.

But James Ho ffa had nothing to do -- James Hoffa was with the Teamsters, incidentally for the honourable members' edification on the other side, James Hoffa was from the Teams ters . The Teamsters weren't representing the steel workers in Thompson, no Thompson, Flin Flon. You know, Mr.

Speaker, we have heard also other members on the other side say •what are you going to do about the minimum wage ?' Well I would like to assure the Honourable Member for Pembina that I would like to see the Minimum Wage Board abolished, but also in the same vein I would like to see every member of the working force in Manitoba within a union, and I can assure the Honourable Member for Pembina that they would be working for much more than $1. 65 an hour, or $1. 75 which is the federal one --(Interjection)-- They would be doing it by choice --(Interjection\-- and working for more by choice.

You know the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, that's right. You know he has the idea that the only productive members of society, the really really people who produce, are the entrepreneurs, the entrepreneurs, they're the people that really produce.

The people that really produce in society are very basic, the people who work, and who work, and who do the production -- the farmers are a good example of a productive force in this country ; so are the people on the assembly lines ; so is the plumber, and who would perhaps be more productive than the sales men, the entrepreneur, because really all they're fiddling around with is somebody else' s money. You know, Mr . Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition said that this was a hoax; he was going to be able to cut this budget, this budget we presented by $25 million.

He was going to put all old age pensioners - they were going to have all the taxes, school taxes paid, even including the ones that were on pension -- I think that the Honourable l\Iember for Flin Flon said, one was receiving about $48, 000 pension -- you know he was going to pay his as well. You know, e\·en some of his figures that he presented, and he said that they were school boy arithmetic, were in error.

He was going to cut $25 million off the budget; he was going to pay all the old age pensioners, school taxes, somebody else' s taxes , and lo and behold his operating deficit was only going to be, I think -- what was it? - $4 million. You know that is real school boy arithmetic. You know, I'm sure that Cass- Beggs if he had failed the - Doug Campbell on his mathematics, he would have thrown the Honourable :Member for River Heights right out of the classroom, or put him in the corner with a certain hat on. (I nterjection)-- Well they were diefenbucks were they? Well perhaps that was it.

You know, the Honourable Member for River Heights, the Leader of the Opposition, he really thought he was coming in to play the lead in Shakespeare's "T empest", but you know when it got all over, and it was all finished he wound up playing the lead in" The Comedy. of Errors" . You know, they're both comedies, incidentally, for the Honourable Member for Thompson --(Interjection)-- The tragedy is Manitoba, the years that they were in political power in this province. You know they're quite a bunch of actors over there, really they are.

You know we have the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, not Fort Rouge, Fort Garry, he plays the heavy part, he's the Hamlet, the John Barrymore type. Then we have, oh yes , I mustn't forget we have one that really competes for the Oscar every year in the front row. the Honourable Member for Lakeside. You know I have not been able to make my mind up whether he is trying to play a heavy role, or a comedy role. And then, of course, we have the Honourable Member for ::\Iorris. He is the Rich Little. Rich Little - you know he's got John Diefenbaker down pat. really pat.

You know when he de,·elops and gets Pierre Trudeau and a few more you know he'll reaUy be able to qualify for the Oscar too. He tried very hard, one night late; he came the night after the Oscars were presented but perhaps he's thinking of 1973, he's looking ahead.

April 13, 1972 957 (MR . .ffl NKINS cont'd) ..... I'll give him credit for that. He missed the Oscar for 72 but he's going to try for 73 . I see he's going away now to perhaps practise up on some other out standing figure in the political life of Canada. Now we have the braying again from the side, over the other side, from the Honourable Member for Charleswood, and I wasn' t going to really comment on some of the remarks that he made because I thought they were just the braying of a certain animal. But you know, Mr . Speaker, I was annoyed yesterday.

The Honourable Member for Charleswood said, and I'm just paraphrasing it because I don't have it here, but all these fellows that went and defended this great country of ours took part, took

part in the defense of this country, were defending free enterprise. You know, Mr. Speaker, -- (Interjection)-- Yes, democracy is part of free enterprise. I was one of those who took

part in that adventure, if you want to call it that . - (Interjection)-- Yes, and I volunteered too, and I spent my time in the services, I never once -- you know when we landed in Normandy on D-Day, and when we went into the concentration area at a place called P ... , on the south coast of England, I never heard my officer ask me once, "Are you a socialist, are you a free enterpriser ?" Not once --(I nterjection)-- My honourable friend now wants to call people communists . You know, this is a free society that we live in.

This is what the whole exercise - what doesn't seem to be able to sink through to my friend on the opposite side, that people, even some communists went and defended this country. In fact there was quite a number of them. You know, they were all - we never asked anybody in our unit what their politics were. They were Canadians, and for me that was good enough.

The Honourable Member for Charleswood seems to have some sort of a conflict, or a twist, on this subject, perhaps he has been watching too many of the re-runs of the McC arthy witch hunt downin the United States - and I'm not talking about Eugene McCart hy, I'm talking about fighting Joe who cut his stomach on a beer bottle, I believe on the crossing of the Equator ceremonies for his war . . . You know, Mr. Speaker, if we were to believe the Honourable Member for Charleswood, nobody on this side were ever in the forces. These were all the good guys.

These were the fellows that defended democracy and the free enterprise system. Well I'll tell you, Mr. Speaker, there was a hell of a lot of guys that wen .:>Ver there fighting who didn't know what their politics were; and there was an awful lot of them that were members of the New Democratic Party, or the C. C. F. party at that time and the honourable member said I didn't have any politics, or I didn't know what.

I can assure him that I cast my first ballot overseas because when I left this country I wasn' t old enough to vote - not at the age of 21, and I cast my first ballot for a man by the name of Hans Freed, a C. C. F. candidate in the City of Brandon, and I was old enough to know --(Interjec tion)-- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order. MR . .fflNKINS: The honourable member wants to know how old I was, well in 1945 I was over the age of 21 I can assure him that. That was my first vote. I couldn't have voted if I had of been 18 or less. The Honourable Member for Charleswood -- (Interjection)- suffers from shellshot?

But he said the other day that he had spent all his time over here, not over there. He was doing his defending in this country, I guess . --(Interjection)- Perhaps he was one of the armchair generals, I don't know. But you know, Mr. Speaker, I think we have spent far too much time on the contribution that the Honourable Member for Charleswood made in this Chamber, if that was his contribution, well I know what you can do with it . This Budget Debate has been bandied about by the Opposition as being a hoax, and being non-expansory. You know, Mr.

Speaker, if they could have only had a mirror up here the other night when the Honourable Minister of Finance was presenting that budget; first you saw them quite raucous, boisterous, you know this was the time they were going to hang the NDP, they were really going to hang them good. You saw their faces turning different colors, and when they wound in the end they were a pretty sickly looking green, pretty green. I don't think the Honourable Member for Inkster either a pretty sick green, because you know, Mr.

Speaker, they have accused this government of everything imaginable, mis management, what not, nepotism, you name it, everything that they could think of, the y' ve tried to accuse us of. But we have been able to put into the pockets of the people of Manitoba $28 million that they wouldn't ·have had otherwise. You know the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney- he' s gone .again, I guess. May be he's gone out to practise acting too, I don't know. However, the honourable member said,

958 April 13, 1972 (MR. JJ!:NKINS cont' d) ..... Honourable Member from Rock Lake - use some of the some people are going to have to actually file an income tax return to get this money, only file them late. You know, it might be a great incentive to early returns for the Feder al Income Tax Department, perhaps that's another point that we can chalk up on behalf of the Honourable Minister of Financ e.

But I know, getting back to my own constituency, in my constituency I have, like the Honourable Member for Osborne, and I guess many honourable members in this House, I imagine all, we have many old age pensioners , many, who are living on some pretty tight in come schedules right now, and if they'r e paying 140 or $100 in school realty taxes, if you don' t think that a 100, or 120, or $130 into their pockets is going to help them, then I say, Mr.

Speaker, these people on the other side -- they say that we are playing games with them, but I can assure them that the old age pensioners of Manitoba certainly know we are not playing games. To them it's going to be the means of whether they are going to keep their homes or lose them. And you know, the Honourable Member -- oh he' s gone -- Sturgeon Creek, I think he was the most chagrined, the other night, because he has a resolution, and rule me out if I am out of order, Mr.

Speaker, because I am commenting, I don' t think it has been passed yet or acc epted or one thing or the other, whereby he would pay the school realty taxes of all the old age pension ers . You know he was the most chagrined of the lot. I think he was the greenest of the lot. Because exactly that is what we are doing. But he says, "Oh no, that' s no good, that's no good. " It' s no good merely, Mr . Speaker, because it came from this side of the House. You know if we said it was night, those people would say it was day. If we said it was morning, they'd say it was evening.

If we said it was black, they would say it was white. You know, the honourable members opposite in their terms of office here, they did some things that were of benefit. I'm not that --(I nterjection)-- Perhaps, the Honourable Minister of Ed ucation said, they got out. However, I do n't think that they got out willingly, I think the people of Manitoba gave them a bit of a helping hand. I' m sure that they're going to keep them there come the next time round .

You know, the honourable members opposite, and I know many of them represent farm ing communi ties , in fact most ofthe members over there are repres enting farming communi ties . They're saying, this isn't going to help the farmers, this isn' t going to help the farmers, no sir. You know I appreciate the problems that the farmers of Manitoba have, and are still having. It' s a real problem. Their problem is that they are growing a product for which they can't get any sales . They are caught in a cost-price squee ze , which is not oftheir making, but I think that the Honourable Me mber for St.

Vital gave them a bit of good advice, they have a national farm union, make it work; make sure that you get your fair share of the economy . After all you're all good free enterprisers over there. What do you think a trade union is ? A socialist soci ety? Well I can assure you it isn' t as a member of the trade union. A trade union is a good free enterprise soci ety because they'r e bargaining for their services at the highest rate that they can get.

Just the same as the manufacturer, or anybody else, states what he will get for his cos t price of goods, You know, I hear the braying of the donkeys over there again. Same one I guess. Somebody should take him out and put him in the oat field for awhile . You know, $140 to many farmers is $140 and they're not going to turn it down, they're going to be very glad that they got $140. 00. We' ve heard the honourable members opposite complain, complain about school taxes for farms .

Now that we're doing something for it the Honourable Member for Souris-K illarney says, "well, you know, they're going to have to pay taxes on that. " Well lo and behold, there are other people within society, all the people here within the urban areas of Manitoba and in the whole North American continent pay taxes, if they earn enough money. And after all that's what this whole budge t's about and this tax credit system. It' s a system of putting back to people what they have paid in school realty taxes , on the ability to-pay they will get their credit back.

So if a person - take an old age pensioner, him and his wife, he rec eives $1, 500, he gets $500 now at the age of 65, I believe I'm correct, which brings him up to $2 , 000, he gets Sl. 350 for his wife which comes to $3, 350, $100 - oh yes , for the medical benefits or charitable dona tions , which gives him $3, 450. 00.

You know when the Minister of Finance said I believe - I'm not quite sure of the figure he - something about 96 percent of the old age pensioners if they had been paying -- and that seems to be the big hang-up, the big lack of comprehension that we find on the other side, they' re not able to interpret the Queen's English here which was very well presented by the Honourable :Minister of Financ e. If they paid $140 school taxes -- and I' m sure that there are many within the Cit y of Winnipeg that do, and in other parts of l\lanitoba

April 13, 1972 959 (MR . JENKINS cont'd) ..... -- they will, if they are receiving less than having no taxable income, if they have no taxable income - and I don't think that there' s many old age pensioners that are receiving over $3, 600 in pension benefits in the Province of Manitoba. There are some. · The Honourable Minister of Labour is one, and he made his views known during debate in this House that he felt tht he should not be entitled to that. I have to agree with that, and that's what this budget states. But in no case, Mr.

Speaker, in no case will anyone in the Province of Manitoba who pays school taxes, receive less than $50. 00. And in the year 1972 they will receive at the minimum payment $50. 00 credit on their realty taxes now, plus another $50. 00 that they will be paying on taxes this year which will be a credit next year on their income tax. As long as they pay --(Interjection)-- I don' t know, I hear some - the Honourable Member from Rhineland when he wishes to make his contributions I'll sit down and I'll listen to what he has to say.

I don't interrupt him when he speaks and I think that he should give me the same courtesy. I'm sure that the Honourable Member for Rhineland is a very courteous person because I• m sure he is . I basically haven' t too much more to say, Mr.

Speaker, except I want to say once more that I think this is a good budget, it's been a well presented budget, it's put and is going to put money into the pockets of people who really need it: those on fixed income, low income, even those on the average income it is going to give them a tax benefit and it's dealing with people who really need the boost, and I for one stand 100 percent behind the Budget. Thank you, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill) : Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I'll try and get back from Normandy; although it was nice to get over there, we'l l get back to Manitoba before our funds run out possibly. Before we get down to the problems in Manitoba though I'd like to relate a difficulty that I ran into this afternoon in respect to an elderly gentleman who has just finished work as of December 31st; 90 years of age and he has been employed up until he retired on the 31st of this year.

And lo and behold when he put in for his unemployment insurance he was told that he wouldn' t be getting any benefits, and in looking back we find that in June when they brought in the new program it cut everybody off. If this chap had retired at 89 years of age, he would have got benefit of receiving unemployment insurance. Instead he completed the year and now he won' t be able to draw this assistance.

I think this is almost criminal in respect to those people that had been making contributions, because rather than give him contributions they refunded him the monies that had been deducted from him between June and the end of December and the fact that he accepted this money made it impossible for him to apply for any assistance that would be able to be applied for by anybody under 70 years of age. So this is recognition that you give to one chap out of many thousands I suppose that was able to work every·day of his life up until 90 years of age.

On the 31st day of December he's told that he can' t get un employment insurance for the first time in his life when he did apply for it. And yet we hear from day to day the problems of trying to get people, young people to go to work for the first time. And getting back to our own Budget. I wonder when we look at this budget and budgets of Canada we consider just what governments are doing and what they've done in the past.

Certainly they have jealously guarded their rights to, their sole rights I suppose, to issue and control the money and the currency in our country and in this they' ve done a terrible job, they haven't been able to stop depressions, they haven't been able to stop inflations, they' ve bent political pressures, they have in fact been accused of creating unemployment, and yet they're the ones that control the money in our country . I think that this is one of the things that we must look at and we must judge them by. They've done a terrible job over the years and per haps we should be reassessing, reassessing.

But the program that is put forward to us in this last Budget is one in which they will take it away from us in one hand and give it back to some of us in the other . I heard of this some years ago when the Roblin Government came in with a program in which they were going to give rebates to owners of property and they were chastised by people on the Opposi tion side, and I think if it was right then it's right now. It always costs money to administrate and to give back money, rebate it.

I think if they're going to redistribute the money through a system it should be in an easier way than what is being set up at the present. I don' t have an alternative to offer at this time but I would hope that government would be able to take a look at it and say we'l l do it in one manner, form or another in which it'll be equitable and will not be one that

960 April 13, 1972 (MR. BEARD cont•d) .. ... will be looked at as being political. This may be the problem that they will run into at this time and perhaps it will hurt the whole program itself in that people will look at it and criticize it because they'll say it' s political rather than it' s good for the economy of the province itself. --(Interjection )-- That will be something that we will have to look at. Somebody says "Just the Conservatives may criticize it. " I don't know, I've heard on the street, I leave it for you, Mr . Speaker, to ponder over and for the people of Manito ba.

But getting back to the handling of money. I think governments will have to watch, look over it carefully, particularly the Federal Government, because I believe they are losing their grip on the money and the use of money in Canada itself. I believe that probably this is one of the problems that has arisen and has caused the trouble that we have today because it is mis use of credit that has given a lot of people the trouble that they're in.

They've found that the easy credit that is being advertised, the pitfalls of credit, the spending, of buying now and paying later is one which they haven' t had to deal with in the past and now they have to deal with today and tomorrow and the tomorrows are starting to pile up and they find personal bank ruptcies becoming more and more common with people that at one time could handle the debts that they accrued.

But with the easycredit systems that we have today and with the pressures that have been brought down by the manufacturers of goods in which they demand that people be allowed to buy wi thout putting a sizeable amount down on the product itself, then it is bound to create a problem and it is showing up every day. Mr. Speaker, getting over to the problems of the north, I don't think that the people really have any personal desires in the north that are any greater or any less than the people of the rest of Manitoba or Canada.

A fter all, they as a rule came from other areas and I've lis ted a few of the:-our likes and our dislikes . We like money in our pockets and we look for an end to poverty. We long for a growing economy, and we want full employement with acceptable wages. We demand proper care, treatment along with decent pensions for the elderly. We will accept universal medicare and hospital privileges throughout our lifetime as a right for all Canadian!>. And we believe that good housing is just as important for poor people as it is for others. We share a deep concern over pollution.

We look for a government that can get things done; politicians who through plain straight talk can give a message rather than a philosophy that is supposed to appeal to all the voters. We want to retain a confidence in the future of our people, ou:r province and our country and we want Canada to be a good neighbour to the rest of the world . And we want to win the respect of the countries we do business with. I think that's· where we stop. I believe that the northern economy differs in that we do have a problem in the higher cost of living and our northern isolation.

I was going back through some of the files and I found that going back to the 1966 election, the thoughts were the same as I've been presenting to the Minister of Finance for some time in respect to trying to get him to tax according to the cost of living rather than having a straight universal tax.

This was a Roblin inducement, it was headlined as, and this was printed on Monday , July 4th, 1966, and hasn't changed the philoso phy behind it, but there hasn't been anything done and hasn't -- well - "P remier Duff Roblin states in a campaign speech on behalf of the Conservative candidate in Churchill that he is in favour of a tax or pay inducement for workers in northern Manito ba. The Premier said he intended to press for recognition of the principle at the next Dominion-Provincial Conference. The idea is a sound one and should not be allowed to disappear from public view after the elec tion.

There are many precedents for such an attitude towards work in areas deemed either dangerous or unconfortable by ordinary standards . In addition to the support for higher pay for people who have to contend with difficult weather conditions, there is also a good deal to be said for tax concessions . Such concessions would certainly be a subject for discussion by members of the Ot tawa government and the provincial premiers when next they meet. There are also precedents for this kind of stimulation.

Most of the governments in this country think nothing of providing tax inducements for industries to locate in certain areas where they otherwise might hesitate to settle. If industries, why not the men and women who have to operate them? All things considered remission of income tax would well be a most sensible way of attracting people to work in the north; where higher wages could prove a liability factor in cost of produc tion, tax remissions would have no such effect. " This is the case we' ve been trying to place before this Minister of Finance for some time .

The larger salary doesn' t really answer the problem in the north and it is becoming more of a problem as each year passes . The taxes grow, so disparity grows . With the higher cost of operations in the north growing each year then higher cost of living grows. So consequently

April 13, 1972 961 (MR. BEARD cont'd) ..... there is higher costs to the wage earner which he can do nothing about. There's a higher tax being taken off his cheque which he .can do nothing about and he finds that there' s little incentive left to keep him in the north. So consequently there is this great turnover in the la bour pool in northern Manitoba and in northern Canada, and nothing is being done about it. And well the Minister may say this is a problem that we'll have to talk over with the Federal Government such as Premier Roblin has indicated.

But I don' t believe that this was the problem where - it should start there. I think that the incentive should start with the Minister of Finance here in the province and then he can go to Ottawa and say this is what I have done and that I am prepared to do, and what are you prepared to do in return. Because Ottawa have done many things to look after areas of Canada, they have many programs. And in return th�y can either complement the Minister's program of giving these incentives through income tax and if they hesitate to touch that then they can give a refund back to the Minister in some other way.

But it is to the benefit of that same Federal Government that this province do something to see to it that the mineral resources of northern Manitoba be harvested as economically and as fast as possible.

For the Federal Government are getting money and I feel in many cases that they get the first cut and they do get a good share of the profits and there' s no reason why they can't share in trying to assist the labour market and the business in settling and getting the job done, just as they did in settling western Canada and seeing to it that the west was developed, And they did it with far-reaching programs, And if we looked at the west today and won dered how they could give those large tracts of land away free or very cheap ; they must have been out of their mind when yw think of what they were selling for or selling for today, their value, But the only reason that they are of value today is that they were initially given away to get people and the population there, And it's the same in the north, ifthe population isn •t there then the north isn •t of any value to either the rest of Manitoba or the rest of Canada, !t hink this has to be kept in mind and I think we 're selling northern Manitoba short if we think of it as some members do as a piece of property that can be well flooded and we can shut our eyes and use it as a Hydro program and develop it ' to 30 feet of flooding such as the Member for Pembina I believe suggested the other day.

This was a program, he said, which was costing the government many millions of dollars - two millions or two and a half million dollars per family for each Indian family. It shows his ignorance of the north but we won't really hold it against him and I don' t really intend to debate it at this time. Probably be better to try and educate him rather than chastise him. I believe in the north again education - I think that the department will have to look at their high school program.

They'll have to hope to build up a high school in many of the smaller areas opposite to what they're doing down here, because they' ve proven one thing, and they've proven it well; that you take the child out of the home environment of the north and you put him into the city with a large dormitory or strange homes in the city and you take him away from his family, his friends and his community and you've got a dropout within a few months. This is proven over and over again.

It has proven to be costly and is proven to the point that I think that the government would be well to look into it, go back to the little red schoolhouse conception that they had of sch ools in the early days, because after all it is the early days for many of the areas of northern Manitoba. In respect to labour I think that northern people must get priority in jobs in the north. I think the majority of people in northern Manitoba by far want to work and they've proven they are capable and able and willing to work - just as willing just as able, as able as anybody else.

I think it' s a responsibility of government, industry and the unions . As far as I'm concerned the government is the only one that has showed any signs of moving. Industry and the unions have not. And I think it' s up to them to start breaking a little water now, do something about it. It's new land, it' s new area and they can't carry the old ideas up into -- transplant it into the north. We've got to accept that they're into a new place; if they are going to move in then they'v e got to find a new way of doing things. And surely they should be broadminded enough to do it .

Northern industry - as a whole I'm satisfied with the job that northern industry is doing. I think they're doing a good job in the prime resource development. But then again that is not enough for Manitoba. I don' t think it's enough for either Manitoba or Canada to look after the refining of their base metal only. I don' t think any longer can we afford to ship it out to other nations. ·I think this is a problem that the Canadian people will have to solve and we' ve got to invest in the secondary resource industry if we are going to properly use. our resources. And, Mr.

Speaker, if the golden belt of Ottawa, Ontario. is so tight about the investment of foreign

962 April 13 , 1972 (MR . BEARD cont'd) • • • • • money in this country, then it's about time they got off their rear end and got that money that they're talking about, that Canadian money, and invested it in the secondary resource industry of this country. Because it 's there for them, it 's there. And if the Gordons and all the rest want to talk then let them put their big money where their big mouth is and get out and do something about it. 1\lr. Kierans hasn't done anything; Mr. Hellyer hasn't done anything about it.

They 've done a little talking once in a while, but I haven't heard of any .investment that they've gone into in the north. I haven't heard of any action that they'v e started. But I think it's about time that they got on to the bandwagon, not trying to buy back the investments that are already there because that's going to cost them a lot of money in a hurry, but they can get on with the job and I think that it's about time that they start showing us the �,:tdersMp that they're talki� about. Because_right today it 's been all talk and no action.

As far as the health and social development in northern Manitoba it is a large department. I think it is difficult to try and talk about it at budget time. Probably the toughest one that we all look at is the air ambulance program. I think we have to have one and that's not going out and buying a whole lot of air ambulances, I do n' t think it' s necessary. I don't think we've ever proved it's necessary to buy one in fact.

I think we have the airplanes available in the north; I think it's a matter of making use of the first plane that's the closest to the community and it would be impractical I believe at this time to even try and consider having an air ambulance at each community, because if the commanity was any size then you might say you'd have to have two there in case one was on a trip to Winnipeg then you would have to have another there in case of a second emergency .

But I think that you would have to have the equipment there, some type of a stretcher that would be capable of fitting into the different types of planes, the 18 0's, the Beavers, etc. so that you could make over a plane in a hurry and get these people out very quickly and working with the Department of Transport make sure -- I don' t say th is , that it' s ever happened, but make sure that the first priority of any plane, whether it be commercial or private, would be that they provide the service for an ambulance as a first priority. Second priority, maybe there•d be another flight ...

Transair I think has another problem. I believe that really. on the cost is prohibitive in that when you're talking about the north you're talking about bringing an ambulance case in, you' re talking about two seats for the stretcher and one for the nurse, that• s th ree. And these are full prices at least. And I think that's a little much for emergency cases. I think Transair could whip off a better deal than that if they were pressed into it .

I don't think they need to take the whole cut on health services and I think that Transair could well look into this and if they want to contribute towards the development of the north then let them contribute some of their services. I don't sa y they should give it free but I think they could give some type of assistance, financial assistance --(Interjection) -- Transair.

I think that when the -- as it now lies the medical cases that are brought into Winnipeg are the responsibility of those that are using the service so that unless they pick up a welfare chit they're responsible for paying the tab and I think this is fairly expensive way of getting yourself into \\'innipeg and I think it' s something that does not have to be borne by -- the equivalent does not have to be borne by any of the other communities outside of those areas of northern -- that are other than northern Manitoba that depend on Transair.

I believe that government should be looking at this and saying that we have developed a medical centre in Winnipeg to look after the whole of Manitoba and that there's no reason why we should be offering that service. It's not fair to offer that service free to the person that lives across from the hospital while the person that lives at Thompson, Churchill, Lynn Lake, Gillam, and the other areas, have to pay large amounts of money that could run well into the hUndreds of dollars to get into Winnipeg. This is a large expense.

And particularly when those that accompany the people in have to pay for accommodation in here, which I agree · country people coming in would have to pay the same. But add it up, it is a large expense. think that government under the health program must take a look at this because it's universal programs when we talk about them. We talk about them being something for all of l\lanitobans and if it's goirig to be for all i\lanitobans, then lets make sure that it' s fair for all of Manitobans . l\lr.

Speaker, the Prime l\linister gaVe a speech the other night in Toronto and it was headlined: "T ransportation said key to Northern Development. '' You know the Prime Minister says a lot of things, and he says so many things that he' s got to be right some of the time, and he couldn' t have been more right that time, and I couldn't have agreed more with him. I orily hope that he said it loud enough so that Mr. Jamieson heard and Mr. Richardson heard him

� - -- -- -- - - April 13, 1972 963 (MR. BEARD cont'd ) ..... because I still get the feeling that they didn't. When he talked about $10 billion I - it sent me into shock, really and I was greatly concerned. But really the speech was election bait, there's no doubt about it because it was just a very nice fairy story . He wasn't fooling anybody. It was nice for everybody to hear, and it was something that every body want to listen to, but I wouldn't believe it, no, Sir, because there's no comm itment there. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. I would remind the honourable member that he has five minutes .

INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: While I'm on my feet I would just like to take the opportunity on your behalf to call your attention to the gallery on my right where there are 70 students from the Lorette School under the principal, Mr. Gabe Girard and this school is located in the con stituency of the Honourable Member for Springfiel d. On behalf of all the honourable members, I bid you welcome. ORDERS OF THE DAY - BUDGET DEBATE MR. BEARD: I hope they get a better education from the member than we do, Mr. Speaker. The Prime Minister in his speech said, "Mr.

Trudeau also envisions in the establishing of a north port a deep water all-year fa cility which would extend the present shipping season to 365 days from 85 days, and which would affect heavily the economics of transportation in both northern and western Canada. Another element would undoubtedly be expansion i

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-38
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 38.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d6a81876d71e9620b6594378b164538320872c3f

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