-'- VOL. l PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: NO. 27 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 23, 1982

June 23, 1982 The Hou se met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Sp eaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape 1579 PK - l Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The han. t4inister of Rural Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform members of this han. House that our government proposes to investigate the feasibility of transferring the abattoirs owned by the Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation to private enterprise. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

GOUDIE: My department 1 in co-operation with the Department of Development,is preparinn a divestiture packnqc of information and data about the physical, financial, processing volumes, production capabilities and performance efficiencies of the Corporation. This will be made available to private enterprise for their evaluation and the submission of proposals to purchase and operate the abattoi~ facilities located in Pleasantville and Corner Brook. Over the past year two enquiries have been received from private enterprise about this possibility.

Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation was incorporated in 1963 as a Crown Cor~oration to process and sell some agricultural commodities. The chief function has been the operation of meat and chicken processing Jllants at Pleasantville and Corner Brook. The corporation annually purchases, kills, processes and markets approximately 3.5 million broiler chickens, which translates into 9 million pounds of chicken, and 33,000 hogs, representing 5 million pounds of Jork and pork products. This produce comes from 48 Commercial farmers from across the Province. 3336

June 23, 1982 Tape 1579 PK - 2 MR . GOUDIE : The growth of the broiler chicken industry has been rapid . In 1970 production was 500,000 birds

whereas last year it had risen to 3.5 million birds . Production started in Eastern Ne\"foundland in the late sixties and later ,in 1975 , after construction of the Corne r Brook plant, it spread to Western Newfoundland . The present production is divided ap~roximately equally bet\veen the t\vO areas of the Isll' .:1C:. 33~ 7

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1580 IB-1 MR. GOUDIE: In 1981 the gross farm income for broiler chickens was $7.4 million. The provincial producers are members of the recently formed Canadian Chicken Marketing Agency and,with the resulting stability, production in this Province haspotential to expand even further. At present we only produce 45 per cent of the chicken consumed in the Province. Per capita consumption is increasing by about 3.5 per cent per annum and a ready market exists for an additional 5 million pounds or fresh chicken.

A new chicknn h~tchery started operations in the Province last year so, all in all,future industry prospects are good. Our swine industry,characterized by a controlled breeding programme and a superior health status, starteuin the early sjxties and last year 33,000 :bogs were marketed through the Corporation. Production performance is equal or better than that in most parts of the country. The majority of production takes place in Eastern Newfoundland with smaller amounts in the Central and Western regions of the Province.

Hog market prices nationally and internationally have been depressed for the past two to three years. Consequently, producers have not increased production during this period. Even so, gross farm income last year was $3.8 million. Market prices have strengthened in 1982 and with local production only representing 15 per cent of consumption there appears to be a viable future for the industry. We know that our production costs are higher than elsewhere in Canada due to higher freight, feed and other farm input costs.

The higher production costs are countered by the availability oi fresh chicken and pork and the elimination of transportation costs to import the finished products. If our consumers are to get truly fresh, quality produce it has to be produced locally. The local non-frozen products can demand a higher 33~fi

June 23 , 1982 Tape No . 1580 IB -2 MR . GOODIE : price than imported frozen products . This ha s been shown through recent consumer surveys and experience . Finally, Mr. Speaker, private enterprisehas some advantaqes and flexibility over that of a Crown Corporation . ~~ . Speaker, with the information available to us now, it seems that the course of action to be followed could assist the chicken and hog industries to improve and expand . This , of course, would benefit both the farmers ,...,., the consumers in our Province .

However, be assured that if a suitable buyer is not available, then Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation will continue to operate the plant s. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR . SPEAKER {RUSSELL) : Just before I recognize the hon . member for Torngat Mounta ins (Mr . Warren) , it is a pleasure for me to welcome to the Speaker's gallery today Shiela Embury .iO is the r·!LA from the Albert a Legislature repre senting the 'istrict of Calqary Northwest . I welcome you to the gallery today . 33~~

June 23, 1982 Tape 1581 NM - l SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In response to this Ministerial Statement, at the beginning I would like to say just qlancing through it that this could be a good move on the part of the government. However, I want to assure the hon. House that I want to approach this statement with caution as well as all members should.

I am just wondering now when and if this is passed over to private enterprise, we are all talking about the cost of living, are we going to see an increase in the cost of living in this Province7Becaus& we must realize now that Newfoundland Farm Products is subsidized by the provincial government and if this subsidization is taken away it is quite possible that we maY see an increase in the cost of living. However, again,Mr.

Speaker, the minister has made this statement and he is trying to make it as positive possible, I am just wondering has there been any consultation with the hog producers and the poultry producers in the Province, has there been any consultation with those two groups of people before the minister made this decision to let it go out to private enterprise? And the last thing, Mr. Speaker, that concerns me is going out to private enterprise, is it going to be a selected group in the Province that will only have the opportunity to take over this operation?

Or will the minister 1 be advertising through all the media, will there be an advertisement throuqh all the media and give anyone in Newfoundland and Labrador the opportunity of takinq over this operation - HR. NEAU.Y.:__ Calling public tenders. MR. WARREN: -or callingpublic tenders? So I am just concerned, Mr. Speaker, The minister said he is inviting proposals - proposals from \~hom? Is it from the general public 311, n

June 23, 1982 Tape 1581 NM - 2 MR . WARREN : or is it just from a half a dozen or so influential people in the Province? That is my concern and I think it is the concern of the people of this Province . Thank you . MR . SPEAKER (Russell): I would like to also welcome to the galleries today some senior citizens visiting with us from the Boyles Home in the district of Pleasantville. I welcome you indeed. SOME HON . MEMBERS.:.._ MR. _§_ PEAKE~ :_ Ministers? MR . SPEAKER : -----MR . NEARY : -- -- Hear, hear! Are there any other Statements by ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon . Leader of the Opposition . Mr.

Speaker, it would appear today, and I am not going out on a limb in saying that it might be a great day for Canada, but there seems to be a spirit of conciliatJon abroad in the land . First of all we hav e the news that the federal government intends to bring down a new budget on Monday - MR . l-10RGAN : About time I would say . MR. BARRETT : Six months too late . 3 :\ 4 •l

=~ June 23,1982 Tape No. 1582 ah-1 MR.NEARY: -Mr. Speaker, and then we received L hL' news I rom Main!~ Uw t the I' rcmic r-, who is down there attending a conference,is prepared to withhold his attack on our sister province of Quebec in his dealings with the New England States in selling power to New York.

And finally we heard from Ottawa,also in the last twenty­ four hours,that the Prime Minister emphasized the need for an negotiated settlement on the offshore rather than seeking a court decision and this was outlined in letters to both the Premier of this Province , to the heads of the - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HODDER: Shut up over there,will you? MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, can you keep the Muppet Show down for a little while until we get some questions? Letters have been sent to the Premier of the Province, to the heads of the denominations and various other people in connection with the offshore.

Now to begin with, Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Energy (Mr.Marshall) outline specifically what the administration's position is on the transmission of power to the New England States and then to the transmission of power to the Power Authority of the state of New York by Hydro Quebec? What precisely is the position of this Province? M~.SPEAKER (Russell): MR. MARSH!II.L: The han. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, I had thought the

preamble related to the question but I know that is probably too much to expect from the han. Leader of the Opposition. The position with respect to the transmission of power to New England is as has been stated before, Mr. Speaker. At the present time the province 3~4?

June 23,1982 Tape No. 1582 ah-2 MR.MARSHALL: of Quebec enjoys the benefit of some 5,000 megawatts of power from the Upper Churchill, this benefit that was conf~rred upon him by the hon. gentleman there opposite and his cronies and colleagues at the particular time. We have attempted assiduously for eight years to recall power to 3::1/.d

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1583 so - 1 MR. MARSIIJ\LL: which we were e ntitl cd,which we felt we were entitled. Quebec has refused to do it, to respond to our request. Our current request was for 800 .megawatts of :;>ower; it will exceed that now.Our current request, of course, is related to the Reversion Act that we were forced to pass. But it is a matter of record that this Province has requested 800 megawatts of power from the Pr.ovice of Quebec.

This being so, the Province of Quebec cannot take our power and make new contracts with the Power Authority State of New York,or the State of Maine for that matter.Because .one of the criteria in the country of Canada, the nation of Canada, before there is export of energy it has to be surplus,and I underline the word 'surplus' , if the ~1on. gentleman understands wh,Jt the meaning of surplus is, to Canadian needs. The hon. gentleman will also recognize that we are Canadians, we have requested 800 megawatts of power,and our position is that the Province of Quebec should not be entitled to export power.

Most of it they are able to export as a result of that contract, that unfavourable contract with the Province of Newfoundland ,because, in fact, it is not surplus to Canadian needs,because the people of Newfoundland require it and the people of Newfoundland intend to get it. And one of the mechanisms under which we are going to see that it is obtained for the people of this Province is that we intend, as is our right, to oppose before the National Energy Board any attempt by the Pr ovince of Quebec to export power before the needs of this Province are satisfied. And I could indicate, Mr.

Speaker, to the House that we have already been in contact with the National Energy Board, we have already established the fact that Quebec has no surplus approval already to export :)o~·mr, so in order to fulfill these 3;11. 4

June 23 , 1982 Tape No . 1583 so - 2 MR . MARSHALL : contracts that have been billed by the Province of Quebec they do in fact have to apply, in accordance with the rules and regulations under the applicable legislation ,to the National Energy Board . And \<~e, as is our right ,and I would submit our duty to the people of this Province, will resist it on the basis that I have already outlined in my answer . SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR . NEARY : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : of the Opposition . Hear, bear . Supplementary , Mr . Speaker . Supplementary, the hon . LC'ildcr MR . NEARY : Mr.

Speaker, the hon . gentleman did not address himself specifically to the question that I asked about why there is a difference in the two situations . At least the word coming from Maine is that the Premier will object to the sale of Quebec hydro power to one party and not object to the sale of hydro power to another party . In ot her words, the word that seems to be coming up is that maybe we have di sc overed a touch of diplomacy, I do not know, but what the Premier is 33411

~. ,June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1584 MJ - 1 :m. s. Nr::.l \~1.:': saying down in Maine is that the Province will net object to the sale of power to the State of New York but will object to the sale of power to the New Enql and States. Why the difference? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President fo the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to respond on important questions of this nature to second-hand reports, neither -and I have learned -will I respond to the impression that the hon. qentleman gets from certain facts from reports because I have found that ninety-nine per cent of the time the impression the hon. gentleman has is incorrect. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. T-1.1. ~~EARY : Let us see if my impression of the letter that was written to the Premier of this Province by the Prime Minister was incorrect.

The Prime Minister of Canad<,in a recent letter to the Premier of this Province. stated that there was indeed a response to the Province's January 25th proposal on the offshore problems. That there was a response orally. MR. BAR RET 'I' : Table the response. MR. NEARY: Hold on now, Mr. Speaker. There was a response and there was a promise of a written response. That is outlined in the most recent letter to the Premier of this Province. Now could the minister outline for the House the details of that res~ 0 nse? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, there was no response - there has been no response - to that January 25th proposal. We hdve been 3::\ld1

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1584 ~~J -2 MR. W. MARSHALL: waiting and w~ still await such a proposal. If the hon. gentleman wants to indicate that there was a promise of a proposal,well the proposal was put in on January 25th and I would 1submit that quit~ adequate time has expired and one would expect as Canadian citizens tl.1at the federal government would respond to this "oromise" that was allegedly mac'.e. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: The position is, Mr.

Speaker, crystal clear, that this Province has received no response from the federal government to the Province's January 25th proposal which constitutes a proposal for settlement of the offshore. We are waiting for it, we have not received it, it is a matter of fact we have not received it,and any impression to the contrary from whatever quarter is not' founded. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: T understand from the answor given by the hon. gentleman that the information in the most recent letter from the Prime Minister to the Premier of this Province i > no::: ':o:rr2ct: •,(1en ,. the Prime Minister said that there was an oral response and a written response was promised. The hon. gentleman is now saying that there was a response of no kind, t;lere was neither an oral response or a written response. Is that what I understand from the hon. gentleman? ::111~ 7

Jun e 23, 1982 MR . SPEAKER (Russe ll): th e C ouncil. MH . MARSlll\L L: these issues are of ·rape 15 85 PK - l The hon. Pr esi dent of Mr. Sp eaker, I think that too much import, I think, Mr. Speaker, to the interest and the welfare of the people of Newfoundland to be playing with words with respect ·t:o ti1em. Also, Mr .Speaker, they are of too much import to the People of Newfoundland for members on any side of the Hous e,through political allegiance or what hav e you,to be playing games with what might amount to be the future of the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: The answer is clear:there has been no response to our January 25 proposal. When the proposal of January 25 was put before the federal government, obviously it was a serious proposal and a response was expected. No response has been received. The history of the situation is well known.Instead of giving a response, what the federal government did was attempt to pursue a declaration of its own ownership through the Federal Court of Canada in the SIU case,and then ultimately directly into the Supreme Court of Canada.

They were thwarted in this by the events that occurred,which'I will not go into, as they are well known to this House. But, undaunted.,wrhat they did in unprecedented fashion was that instead of this they referred directly the issue to the Supreme Court of Canada in an uncustomary and unprecedented act that has never before occurred in the history of Canada.

And even more sorrowful to the people of this Province or more concern to the people of this Province, I say that the Supreme Court of Cana~~ itself,in an unprecedented and an uncustomary action 1accepted that reference and agreed to hear this matter prior to a decision being rendered by the gppellate Division of 3~4R

June 23, 1982 Tape 1585 PK - 2 MR • MARSHALL: the Supreme Court of Newfoundland . Now that is the situation. The hon . gentleman ~here opposite should understand that his colleagues in Ottawa have referred the issue to the Supreme Court of Canada . The hon. gentlewan should also understand that this government would orefer a negotiated settlement . But in order to achieve a negotiated settlement, both sides have to be talking about the same thing . One side cannot be talking about apples and the other side talking about lemons on the guise that we are all talking about fruit so we are talking about the same thing. :1 ~I, q

June 2'3, 1982 Tape No. 1586 IB-1 MR. MARSHALL: They are talking about an entirely different thing when on the one side you say that ownership is to be set aside, because if you do not set it aside the agreement can be torn up,and on the other side they will not set ownership aside.

Because on the one hand the provincial government is saying that we will not enter into an agreement that can subsequently be torn up,and the federal government is sayinq, 'We will only enter into an agreement if it can subsequently be torn up.' We also require the federal qovernment to address itself to the joint management and revenue sharing proposals. These are contained in this proposal of January 25th.

Notwithstanding the statement made by the Rt.Hon. the Prime Minister in his lctter,I can say unequivocally, that we have not received a written response or any definitive response,orally or written,from our proposal of January 25th. and we earnestly seek that from the federal government together with their undertakinq to set ownership aside during ther period of the negotiations and permanently if an agreement is reached. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, the hon. Hear, hear! A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the administration have certainly shifted their position since back in 1977, I think it was, when they said that they had an iron-clad case and they were not worried about qoing to court. But now apparently they are worried about going to court and I would like to know what happened to the Province's case since then. Well, Mr. Speaker, that littJ"! breath of fresh air that I spoke about in my opening question seems to be rapidly disappearing and we are getting that hard headed politics again on the part of the hon. gentleman instead of being a realist in this matter.

The question I would like to ask the hon. gentleman is is it possible now 3:=\r;n

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1586 IB-2 MR. NEARY: to qet the warrinq parties back to the bargaining table, to appoint a conciliator, somebodv - MR. TULK: Get them into a war Cabinet. MR.

NEARY: No -appoint somebody to conciliate between the two parties with a view to ignoring the two court cases - it was the Province that first went to court and then the C-overnment of Canada 1·1ent to the Supreme Court - but is it possible to ignore that, to ignore these two court cases,and have somebody appointed as a conciliator to get both parties back to the bargaining table 1the same as they do in labour disputes or when you are trying to settle a dispute between two countries over boundaries and that sort or thing?

Is it possible to qet somebody, some hiqh-powered,respected individual to qet in between the warrinq parties and conciliate this matter and get the parties back to the bargaining table? MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL}: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have to refer to the

preamble first and say what a disgrace for the hon. member as a Newfoundlander to qet up and really irnpuqn the strength of our very stronq case that we have before the courts. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHJ'J,L: gentleman Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, for the hon. 3 3 5 'l

June 23, 1982 Tape 1587 NM - l MR. MARSHALL : to give any public hint at all that this Province is worried about going to court is completely and absolutely unfounded, and there is another appelation that I could give to it which is outside the rules of this House. We are not worried about going to court. We are not worried about any impartial adjudication of the issues before it. We have opinion from leading experts in the world, not just in Canada but in the world, to the effect that our case is extremely strong. It is very strong and it rests on a very strong foundation.

And for any Newfoundlander to get up in the House of Assembly or in any public forum and insinuate otherwise is an absolute and complete disgrace. Mr. Speaker, no, we think our case is strong. In an impartial court we feel that we would come on and we would come on very strongly with it and we have a very, very good chance. But we also do not feel,because we are part of Canada, Mr.

Speaker, that our rights have to be constantly adjudicated in a court, that this is a dispute within a family and we do not believe that,as in any family, that any court can superimpose any particular decision as to how the parties are to live together in the future. That is just not the way it works. The Canadian way, the Newfoundland way, the Ontarian way, anyway that you want to put it, is a way that connotes that there be negotiations and that there be agreement through negotiations and that is what, Mr. Speaker, we want. Now I also note that the hon. gentleman makes his allusions to hard-headed politicians.

And that is the other aspect that they are trying to get now, because they have been laced, and they were laced so much and so firmly by the people of Newfoundland on April 6th. It is a :=l:l~?

June 23, 1982 Tape 1587 NM - 2 MR . MARSHALL : wonder, Mr. Speaker, that they can walk around Newfoundland · They cannot hold their heads hiqh so what they are trying to do now is they are trying to turn around and say that it is being caused by hard-headed small-minded politicians. Well , Mr . Speaker, I can tell the hon. gentlemen there opposite in contrast to them that the decisions that are made with respect to this are governmental decisions and they are motivated,by each and every member on this side of the Bouse, purely and simply by what is best for the long term interest of the people of Newfoundland and they will continue to be done so . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! j~C,i

June 23,1982 Tape No. 1588 ah-1 MR.MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman can cast his little innuendos all he wants to, he can impugn our court case, he can insinuate that we have not got a court case, he can join the five quite quislings up in Ottawa with their litany against the people of this Province,but we are not going to bend to them. MR. SIMMS: Right on. MR.MARSHALL: Now with respect to his quote again about the war:•:- ina parties - the warring parties! - and this is the kind of psychology that the hon. gentleman wants to try to set the seeds of, can we ignore the court case and get a mediator.

That is the question, the bon. gentleman has said. We are quite prepared,as we have always said,to negotiate, Mr.Speaker, and to sit down and negotiate 1 but before there is any negotiations obviously the two parties have to be on the same road, otherwise there will never be any meeting. If one is on one level and the other is on the other,and they are on parallel lines,they will never meet and this is what is happening with the federal government. We say that we want to negotiate a settlement but the matter has to be resolved through negotiation. You cannot have it both ways.

You cannot negotiate and come up with a decision and at the same time go to court and try to get it all for yourself. So, Mr. Speaker, what the situation is is that certainly there are court cases on~oina. I have indicated that we hoped there would be negotiations, but in order for there to be any meaningful negotiations, n~y negotiations with any possibility of any success it 1 has to be on the basis,Mr.Speaker, of ownership being set aside during the period of the negotiations and permanently if an agreement is reached,and the federal government has 3::154

June 23,1982 Tape No . 1588 ah-2 MR . MARSHALL : address itself to joint management and meaningful revenue sharing . And we mean joint management, Mr .Speaker, we do not mean what the right hon . the Prime Minister talks ab out , watered down ownership . Watered down ownership to him mea ns not sharing . MR .NEARY : Could we have a copy of that? Table that . Table that . MR .MARSHALL : I am referring to the same telegram that the hon . gentleman referred to . I have no doubt from the way the federal has operated in the past that he had his telegram probably before the government did,so he is well aware of it .

So that is the situation, Mr. Speaker . We are prepared to negotiate, we are anxious to negotiate, we do not think the matter should be determined in court,but it has to be determined through court, Mr . Speaker , the hon . gentleman thet:e opposite should not be attempting,in the event it ha s to be determined by court,to weaken our court position by making the scandalous statement that he made in the

preamble to his question . 3::\St;

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1589 SD - 1 SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, that was a lot of bologna on that side that time. I would like to ask a question, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon.

Minister of Transportation is I understand that Eastern Provincial Airways has decided to discontinue their Tuesdny flight into Labrador 1 and I am just wondering if the Minister of Transportation could advise us when he met with officials of Eastern Provincial Airways, who he met with with Eastern Provincial Airways 1and what was the outcome of the meeting concerning the discontinuation of the Tuesday flight into Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr.

Speaker, I am aware of the situation as it relates to the discontinuation of a flight from Labrador but it is within the jurisdiction of the Canadian Transport Commission, their Air Services Division or their Air Transport Division, which approves or disapproves flight changes and scheduling changes as it relates to aircraft and air services in Canada. I would suggest that the member refer his question to the appropriate - MR. SIMMS: MR. DAWE: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: for 'l'orngat Mountains. Mr. Rumpkey. Mr. Rumpkey Oh, oh. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member 3 3 .s R

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1589 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: I know, Mr. Speaker, it must be astonishing for the lady from Alberta to hear the hon. Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) just saying that because it is under the CTC, he, as the Minister of Transportation, is not going to even talk to EPA to see if they can keep the flight going. Not bad for the Minister of Transportation in this Province, Mr. Speaker! Now I will ask the minister a simple point-blank question. Would the minister consider meeting with officials of EPA to discuss the discontinuation of this service? MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR.

DAWE: A good question. The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, my department and this government has never been lax in its responsibility of transportation requirements in this Province. MR. WARREN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DAWE: No, boy! No, boy! Hear, hear! As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, when certain flight

schedule changes were proposed for areas of the Province, namely the closure of the EPA services to Deer Lake - MR. SIMMS: Right on! Right on! MR. DAWE: this Province was front and foremost in supporting the town of Deer Lake - MR. SIMMS: Right. Paid for it and everything. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: - and preparing the necessary interventions. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, my department itself prepared a number of interventions and proceeded with them, and very successfully, I might add because the people of Deer Lake still have a service. 31S7

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1~89 SOME HON. HEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. DAI.YE: Mr. Speaker, this government and my department will intervene, will do all it can, to make sure that the level of service is not only maintained in this Province as it relates to air services,but as it relates to 3~SR so - 3

June 23, 1982 Tape 1590 PK - l MR. DAWE: ferry services,as it relates to coastal marine services,as it relates to road services. MR. SIMMS: Everything. MR. DAWE: We will continue to --- put forward the best possible position provincially and will continue to pressure the federal government where necessary to make sure that the level of service is not only maintained but improved. MR. SIMMS: That a boy! That a boy! A good answer. Whnt a minister! SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Fogo . MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) but he has left. AN HON. Mi:MBER: He is back. MR. TULK: Oh, he is there, is here? Mr.Speaker, I want to ask the minister about a problem that has been with us for years and years in this Province with fisherrren being unable to- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TULK: Now , Mr. Speaker, if the muppets can be quite then I will ask the question.

I want to ask the minister about a problem that has been with us for years and years and that is the problem of fishermen in this Province being unable to sell their catch at certain times of the year.That is a result , of course, of the lack of Tory action in processing and technological development and marketing. Mr. Speaker, I refer specifically to the dumping of fish by fishermen on the Southern Avalon in the Province.

And I want to ask the minister quite specifically what he is going to do so that tomorrow morning when the fishermen on the Southern Avalon wake up that they do not have to dump their fish over the 31S'i

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1590 PK - 2 MR. TULK: side of the wharf, or have to give it away down on Water Street? Is he going to do anything or is he going back to Alberta with the member? MR. SPEAKER(Russell) MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker,first of all it is amazing how confused the Opposition party can be these days. MR. YOUNG: Right on there! Right on! MR.

MORGAN: Because it was not too long ago, no longer than - What? -two weeks ago, we heard a policy that was put forward by the man who has most control over the fishing industry in Atlantic Canada, the Federal Min­ ister of Fisheries(Mr.LeBlanc) saying there are too many fish plants in Newfoundland. There is too much expansion in the processing sector of the industry. There should be plants closed in Newfoundland. That is the reason why they are in trouble in Newfoundland. There are too many of them. There is too much competition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: That is what he said a little while ago.

And now today we hear the Opposition here saying not enough plants. Mr. Speaker, the problem that carne to light a couple of days ago on the Avalon Peninsula that has been referred to in the question, is a problem that - there are three factors to the problem. One is the fact that there is a good supply of fish by means of the cod trap fishery in the last few days. Secondly, unfortun­ ately most of that fish is of small size, it is less tha~ sixteen inches in length, which means that the processors do not want to buy that type of small fish because it pro­ duces bad quality.

And thirdly, most of the plants on the Avalon Peninsula are presenting processing the caplin species and not the cod species. 3::1Rn

June 23, 1982 Tape 1590 PK - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: And therefore, Mr. Speaker, the normal operations,or the companies ~1R1

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1591 MJ - l MR. J. MORGAN: who would be normally buying codfish from these fisherman on tho 1\v<:~ I on Pt~n i nsn I< in pilrt-icul<:~r, an~ not- buyinq as much codfish.

Now it came to light yesterday afternoon, it came to our attention this morning at a meeting with fisherman - I \1Tas on the way back from my district and the Deputy Minister met with a delegation of, I think, thirty-five or forty fisherman-and we advised them that we will now, in fact as of 9:30 a.m. this morning, engage our fish distribution desk employees and our field service employees in the Field Services Division to contact c'v~n• company throughout Newfoundland and as of noon today, Mr.

Speaker, the employees had contacted all the companies on the Avalon Peninsula and all of the companies said, 'We have lots of fish, be it caplin or be it ground- fish, we have lots of fish.

We do not need any more fish.' So now ~he employees,and the distribution desk ~~ployees in particular,are in contact with all other companies on the East coast of the Province in particular, and in fact all over the Province to let them know that there is a supply of fish in the Avalon Peninsula and that we will give the okay to them to move i_n and buy the fish from these fisherman 'and to transport it to their respective plants where they do not have a supply of fish. Now the fish distribution desks are set up for the very purpose of moving fish supplies to different plants.

And to give you an example of that, if I recall the correct figure last year,we moved 1.3 million pounds of fish around the Province by means of our effort. In 1980, for example, when \1Te had a qood year in the f:ish0ry, we moved close to 7 millioT1 pounds that way, co-ordinating the supply of fish to different plants. The problem, hopefully, as of the efforts of the Newfoundland Government- and I see no sign, Hr. Speaker, I nee 3~11?

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1591 ~1.J - 2 MR. J. M,ORGAN: no siqn at alJ of any concern f.rom Ottawa. and {)ttavla has all of the control of our fishermen's activities.

It controls lvhere a fisherman lvill fish, ho1-1 much he •.vill fish, w'1at kind of licence he vlill use, what size of boat he will use, how he will land the fish, that is all in the jurisdiction o£ the Federal Department of Fisheries -but whenever a problem arises in Ne~.,foundland, whenever a problem arises in the fishing industry, it is not the government in Ottawa that has eig!'lty-six per cent contro.l over the fishing industry of our Province, our most important industry,that gets blamed for these problems, no,it is the Newfoundland Government. But, Mr.

Speaker, we do take our responsibilities very serious and despite 1ve only have ft:>urteen per cent responsibility we 1•ill do everything possible to solv<! the problems of the fishery. SOME HON. 'MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker. ~ffi. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for roqo. MR. TULK: We have heard that Romeo may have said that there 1o1ere too many fish plants, but the ht:>n. gentleman i~ ~·,-. m=m in this Province who closed them Jmvn. The people in Lewisporte and Jackson's Arm will tell him that. 3::\R1

June 23, 1982 Tape 1592 NM - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. TULK: But let me ask him another question Inview of the fact that his distribution desks have already failed to find fish plant processing capacity for the fish that is being dumped- they failed to do that , otherwise they would have found it before the minister got involved ,- is the minister in favour of over the side sales in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Well, Mr.

Speaker, just to make it quite clear that the members of the House understand that what we have done the last three months, what we have done - SOMJ .; ''')N. MEMBERS: Oh, oll: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, can you control the bon . lip from over Burgeo way, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HICKEY: I was. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. MORGAN: Order, please! Oh, oh! Yes, April 6th. told you how slack Hear, hear~ The bon. lip from LaPoile Mr. Speaker, is out of control again. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ ~1R. HICKEY: There were no recounts or Court cases down my way. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I will sit down • We need some order in the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member for Foqo (Mr. ~ulk) has asked a question of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and it is very difficult I am sure for the bon. minister to provide an answer and for anyone else to hear it. I would ask that the bon. minister be given the right to be heard in silence. 3 ~ Fi i+

June 23, 1982 MR . SPEAKER .(Russell) : l1R . MORGAN: Tape 1592 NM - 2 The hon. Minister of Fisheries. l'1r .

Speaker, it is ironic that the member stands and asks a question and blames us for closinq plants,and names two plants closed by Nick erson's , only two plants in the Province, Jack son ' s Arm and Le\visporte . we 11 how about the plants in Hant's Harbour, Salvage, Jackson's Arm, Greenspond, Cook's Harbour, Bonavista, Englee, Fcrmeuse, Gaul toi£, Grand oank , ~lain nrook , l·'ortunc, 13r itJ U;:~y , ll e;:~rt • s Desire, Petty Harb our, Triton, Harbour Grace, Ramea, Burnt Islands, Codroy , To rs Cove, Petty Harbour , Witless Bay, St. Bride's, Branch . MR. PATTERSON : Shame : Shame : Shame : MR . MORGAN: Mr .

Speaker, I can go on in length naming the plants that are now open -by what means ? By this government 's efforts . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. MORGAN: We had to open these plants strictly on our own limited financial resources we have as a small Province . 3~flc;

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1593 IB-1 MR. MORGAN: And what did it mean? It meant thG re-employment of 7,000 Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Speaker, we have 231 processing facilities in this Province, 231. Some people arque and say there are too many. Others say, 'Well, let us leave it for a while and review it'.

Our position is we are not in favour, as long as there are facilities onshore that do not have an adequate supply of raw material for processing anywhere in this Province-be it over in Burgeo, be it over in Port aux Basques, Port au Choix, Cook's Harbour, Stephenville, Twillingate, Bonavista, Fogo Island, anywhere in the Province - if there is anywhere in the province where a company owning a fish plant does not have an adequate supply of fish,we are not in favour of having our raw material taken to a foreign ship, taken over the side and frozen and taken away to be processed in other countries. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : Hear,hear! Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired. Before we proceed I would like to welcome to the qalleries Mayor Ralph Moss and two councillors, James Thomson and Herm~n Spurrell, and the town manager, Harry Harding,from the municipalities of Badger's Quay, Valleyfield and Pool's Island . SOME I!ON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: we were on Motion No. 6. It being Private Members Day, The debate was adjourned last day by the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3 :

H) fl

June 23, 1982 Tape No . 1593 IB-2 MR . CROSS : Mr . Speake r, before I get into the few words that I have on this debate ~oday- I fear of being ruled out of order and irrelevant, but J will add my personal word of welcome to the mayor and town manager and councillors of the municipalities of Badger 's Quay, Valleyfield and Pool's Island . The first thing that I want to say in this debate today is that I will not be supporting this motion. I simply do not believe l>'hat the motion states in its entirety to be true.

I do believe that the fishery is and always will be the backbone of Newfoundland's economy, that it is the main thread of Newfoundland's social , cultural and economic fiber . I do know and understand that we are experiencing proble~s in the fishery,boe1 in the offshore and in shore sectors . ~:IR7

.rune' 23, 1982, 'l'u.pc 1594, l'ayc 1 -- apb MR. CROSS: But to place the blame wholly and soley on the provincial government at this time is far from the truth and is only madebythe Opposition at this time to try and score political points and nothing else. I will say now without fear of contradiction that more thought has gone into trying to develop a sound fishery policy, and more dollars have been infused into the fishing industry over the last ten years than at any other period in our history. The bon. the member for Fogo(Mr. Tulk), the member who made this motion, said that the fishery should be number one.

Well, I agree with him,and I also say, as I have already said, that it is the number one industry of this Province. MR. TULK: How come you spent all that amount of money? MR. CROSS: Mr. Speaker, I have listened in this House quite a bit and I have never interjected, or very few times have I interjected when somebody was speaking. I would ask that I might be heard in silence for the few minutes that I have today. MR. NEARY: Cu.n you speak in silence? MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): Order, please! I wish to remind hon. members to my right that the bon. member has the right to be heard in silence. Bonavista North. MR.

CROSS: The bon. the member for I would at this time, Mr. Speaker, draw attention to the fact that the last budget of the former Liberal Government in 1971, set aside only $30 million for all natural resources, primary industries, trade and industrial development, and that the present ~~RA

June 23 , 1982, Tape 1594, Page 2 -- apb MR . CROSS: budget of 1982 budgets $171 million to be spent in our resources - MR . TOBIN : In just eleven years? MR. CROSS : - with upwards of $22 million being s?ent on the fisheries. And although this fact may be irrelevant to this debate, it is interesting to note that in 1971,14 .3 per cent of the budget spent by the last Liberal Government was spent on social welfare,

whereas in the budget of 1982 only 10 per cent is being spent on social welfare . This seems to ind ica te to me that the policies of the present admini stration in the development of our resources are better than we had in the past . I would like just for a moment, Mr. Speaker, to go a little further back in history, back to 1948 and the fight for Confederation . During the referendum of 1948 , Newfoundlanders were led to believe that Confederation would make us all rich overnight and would be the cure for all our ills. :1::\Rq

June 23,1982 Tape No. 1595 IB-1 MR. CROSS: The fishermen were led to believe that the cost of producinq fish wo,Jln come down, that the Government of Canada would stand on back of the fishery, that the Fish Prices Support Board backed by Canada's millions would protect the price of our fish. That was in 1948. What happened in 1971? The price of fish fell drastically and some 600 schooners that plied back and forth to the Labrador each Summer were hauled ashore, hauled ashore, Mr. Speaker, never to float again.

The fishermen were told to forget about the fishery and were foresaken by both levels of government of the day, and both levels of government at that time were Liberal. And when the Liberals today say they are genuinely concerned about the fishery and the plight of the fishery,! am always a little bit skeptical as to what their intentions are. The fishery was in dire straits in 1951 and a callous federal and provincial government turned a blithe and blind eye to the plight of the fishermen. Mr.

Speaker, we have all heard the saying chat we have too many fishermen chasing after too few fish and that you can only catch a fish once. The federal government offici2-ls who control licencing believe that to be the case, hence we have a freeze on licences to the Newfoundland fishermen while foreign boats are given quotas. 10,000 metric tons of caplin were given to Russia this year while our own fishermen who wanted caplin licences could not get them, 9,000 metric tons of squid to Japan, squid that our ~ishermen 3::17n

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1596 SD - 1 MR. CROSS: could catch themselves. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we should strike a hard bargain with foreign countries. It should not be caplin for wheat or squid for coal, it should be a trade off of processed fish for the right to fish some of our raw fish stocks. This would help our market situation. The hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) the other day, last Wednesday in his remarks in the debate on this motion 1 spoke of Mr. LeBlanc, Mr. Chretien and Mr. MacGuigan as the men to thank for the 200-mile limit.

He forgot that it was messrs. r~Grath, Carter and Lundrigan who taught the politicians in Ottawa how to say fish and state it,and started the fight for the 200 mile limit. SOHE HON. ~ffi!1BERS: Hear, hear. MR. CROSS: I personally, Mr. Speaker, can remember attending meetings that were held by these hon. gentlemen when they were prcachjng the qospcl or: resource development and the 200 mile limit. As I said, Mr. Speaker, when I stood to speak on this motion,that I will not support this resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. NEARY: Thank you. Hear, hear. The hon. Leader of the Opposition .

We are all surprised that the hon. member is not going to support the resolution moved by my colleague the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk). The hon. gentleman just gave us a little lecture in ancient histor y and told us nothing about what the administration intends to do about the miserable state of the fishery in this Province. The fishery in Newfoundland,which is the backbone of the Newfoundland economy, is in the worst state that it has ever been in, the worst state in our whole history. 3 :\7 •j

June 23, 1982 Tape No . 1596 SD - 2 MR . NEARY : And the bon . gentleman gets up and speaks l ike nll other hon . members on the opposite side speak,as if they are still in Opposition . They have an Opposition syndrome. They are very concerned about \vhat the government did back in the mid-1800s . Mr. Speaker, f ine, we can all read history books and if we are interested in ancient history we can go do1vn to the Legislative Library and thUlilb through the journals down there and the 1te1nsurds of the llouse and find out what happened back from the time that we had responsible . government in this Province .

The hon. gentlema .n should have gone back to the days '"hen Jr::>hn Cabot arrived in Newfoundland. I mean, lvhy stop back in 1949 or back in the middle 1800s? \rlhy stop there? Nhy not go right back to John Cabot . Mr . Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the people - MR . TOBIN: MR. NEARY : fie \·:ent back to v7hen you ~tJere involved . the people in this Province, Mr. Speaker, are not interested in ancient history . They are interested in what 31 7 .?

June 23,1982 Tape No. 1597 ah-1 MR.NEARY: this administration intend to do about the chaotic state of the fishery in this Province at the present time. HR. TOBIN: MR.NEARY: ~·!ho licenced the boats in Quebec? Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman who just came into the House the other day should spend the first year of this Ilouse being seen und not heard instead of getting himself all riled up and all flushed up and goggley eyed and glassey eyed about things that happened twenty or fifty years ago.

The hon. gentleman should sit and listen for a while and the hon. member should go through the learning process in this House, Mr.Speaker. His constituents did not send him in here to make snide and snarkey remarks across the !~use. His constituents sent him in here to try and do a good job for them and for the people of this Province,and that is what the hon. qentleman should do. The hon. gentleman should buy a zipper for the opening and just keep quite, Mr. Speaker, for the first year and the hon. gentleman may learn something. Mr.

Speaker, today we heard about another situation that has been known about in the fishery of this Province for several years past, and that is around this time in the year when the caplin are coming in, when the trap fishery commences on the East Coast, on the Avalon Peninsula, we have a glut in the fishery.And the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) got up again today and sloughed it off on Ottawa. Hr. Speaker, doe .s this administration have no responsibility for the fishery at all? Is the minister abdicating his complete authority in the fisheries to the Government of Canada?

Well to listen to the hon. qentleman, Mr. 3~71

June 23,1982 Tape No . 1597 ah-2 MR.NEARY: Speaker, you would swear that that is what is happen in g. They rnmy as well put a sign on the door,•gone fisbing'or •out to lunch'or•on vacation .' Put the padlocks on her and close her down . They have not lifted a finger in ten years to do anything to improve the state of the fishe ry in this Province,and now we have this glut situation again. The fishermen down in Torbay, down in the district of St .

John's East Extern, Pouch Cove, in Kilbride over on the Southern Shore , two Tory districts , Mr.Speaker, two Tory districts , last week they had to durn~ their fish and this morning they had to go dO\-m on Water Street and gi ve the fish away. They gave away over 10,000 pounds of fresh cod on Water Street this morning. Mr. Speuker ,that is snameful , it is absolutely shameful . And this is the same government that is asking for control of the offshore .

They are asking for more jurisdictio n, they are asking for control of the offshore resources,and they cannot evern solve the glut problem in the fishery that occurs once a year for anywhere from ten days to two or three weeks, 3 :-l7 1;

June 23 , 1982 Tape 1598 PK - 1 ~R . NEARY : a glut problem for about three weeks they cannot even solve that . MR . TULK : If the fish does not come they blame it on the federal government . ~- NEARY : That is right . HR. Wl\RREN : MR . NEARY : shameful . ~ - TULK : ~ - NEARY : Like eve rything else . That is right . Mr . Speaker, as I say it is A most incompetent crowd . That is right . It just proves the incompete nce of this administration, Mr . Speaker . MR . TULK : It is a persistent crisis . MR . NEARY : That is right . All they have been doing so far is sticking their finger in the dike .

The minister got up and he read off a list of all the plants that had been kept afloat in Newfoundland this year because of government guarantees nncl <Jr.ants ..,nd lo<ln!'l from th<' t.1xp.t yC'rs . Mr . Speaker , hon . gentlemen should know, as if they do not know they should go and take a look at their hi story books, that the history of the fishery in this Province has been up and do.,.m .

In the mid-l960s , back in the ~d 19 60s every fish plant in Newfoundland was bankr upt , ev ery one of them was bankrup ·t and the administration of the day had to bail out every fish plant in Newfoundland in the form o£ a government grant or a loan or a guarantee . Every plant in Net.rfoundland . Now, Mr . Speaker we are not proud of that . We should not be proud of it . 3:l7Cl

June 23, 1982 Tape 1598 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: That was back in the mid- 1960s, that was twenty years ago, every plant in Newfoundland Wi:\S b<inkrupt. nj 'l bu.nncr lines in '!'he Eve~ing_'I'elegram ,every fish plant in Newfoundland bankrupt. And I am sure the administration of the day was not proud of that, no more than the administration today should be proud of it. MR. HICKEY: That is when all the boats were burned. MR. NEARY: All they ere doing,- they get up and talk about all the Newfoundlanders that are workins - all they are doing is saving jobs;they are not creating any new jobs, Mr. Speaker.

Not one new job has been created through the millions of dollars that have been flung out to try to save these fish plants and these companies from going into b<'lnl<:rn~t:c" or going into receivershin. MR. STAGG: Tell us about your frienns up in Ottawa. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am going to throw out a few suggestions to the administration of things that I think, direction that I think they should be taking in the Newfoundland fishery. And the first thing that I am going to suggest is something that we as a party stand for, we Liberals stand for - MR. STAGG: Unclear! Unclear! MR. NEARY: -We stand for, Mr .

Speaker, either expanding the terms of reference of the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation to market all the produce of the sea 1or alternatively a provincial Crown corporation to market the fresh fish. 337R

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1599 IB-1 MR. NEARY: rhe hon. gentleman can screw up his mouth all he wants, it is a good idea. Everybody thinks it is a good idea except the administration because, Mr. Speaker, the real problem in the fishery in Newfoundland now, the real problem, Mr. Spea~er, is marketing the product, is marketing the produce of the sea. MR. HODDER: job. MR, STAGG: MR. HODDER: But Romeo is doing a good Romeo is doing a good job? Yes. And if it were up to your fellows we would not have a fish left in the sea because you would be givin~ out licences - MR. MORGAN: We would not be givinq them to foreiqners.

MR. SPEAKER (A'(LWARD) _; MR. NEARY: Order, please! Order! Mr. Speaker, if you could just keep themuppets quiet for a f.ew minutes,maybe I could carry on. I only have twenty minutes, Mr. Speaker, at my disposal. But I want to say this, that the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation is one of the rare,enormous successes in the history of the Newfoundland and Labrador fishery. Yet, Mr. Speaker, the provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morqan) continuously questions its role and refuses to address himself to whether or not the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation should be expanded to market all the produce of the sea.

You see, Mr. Speaker, the real problem in the Newfoundland fishery, for 400 years, has been marketing. Marketing, Mr. Speaker, has been the problem and still is the problem. And, Mr. Speaker, the marketing, hon. gentlemen should have no doubt in their minds, that marketing is a provincial responsibility. You :=1177

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1599 IB-2 HR . NEARY: can blame everything else on Otta\~.l, you can even blame the weather on Ottawa if you want to,but the marketing and the quality of our Newfoundland fish and the processinq of fish in this Province is a provincial responsibility . Can anybody deny that? can anybody on the opposite side get up and say, 'No, that is not true'? l'l'hen the fish are in the water they are under federal jurisdiction . When they are landed onshore, put on the wha rf,they come under the jurisdiction of the provincial qovernment. \N IIOtJ . 11EMBER : the wat er. MR . NEARY : AN HON.

MEMBER : the water. MR . NEARY: There are very few left in I beg your pardon? There are very fe w left in Oh, there are very fe w left in the water. Well whatever is left in the wa ter ,there may be a fe ~~ sculpins left there . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh , oh! t-JR . MORGAN: All the sculpins are in the Opposition . . 3:17A

June 23, 1982 Tape 1600 NM - l MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to provide greater success in the fishery of this Province we have to face the fact that marketing is the problem. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) has to acknowledge that, admit that that is the problem. MR. HORGAN: It is part of the problem. MR. NEARY: It is part of the problem! It is ninety per cent of the problem. MR. MORGAN: Marketing is the key. MR. NEARY: Marketing is the key? Then why does not the han. gentleman, who has the jurisdiction to do something about marketing, why does he not do something about it? MR.

MORGAN: Every time I go to new markets you are always complaining I am travelling too much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, here is the extent of the hon. gentleman's marketinq programme~ A holiday in - MR. MORGAN: If I go they are complaining, if I stay thev are complaininq. MR. NEARY: - a holiday in Pnerto Rico, a holiday in Puerto Rico, a trip to the Big Apple, New York. MR. MORGAN: You ask your colleague, the Minister of External Affairs (Mr. MacGuigan) about my trip to Puerto Rico and how busy it was, ask him. He knows about it. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the han. gentleman put out a news release before he left the Province saying he was going down to Boston and New York to look for fish markets that we already have, we do not need anybody to go down - MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: We do not need any more markets? - we got all the markets we want in the New England States and we have all the markets we want in California. I could show the hon. gentleman orders from 3~7q

June 23, 1982 MR. NEARY: will take the whole - MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: Tape 1600 NM- 2 plants out in my o~m district . They Th~at are now going bankrupt. - t~e whole production of the plants. MR. MORGAN: If the banks come in they are going to go bankrupt. MR . WARREN: Because you are not going to help them . Riqht? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the hon. gentleman has not addressed himself to the marketing problem except to take his holiday in Puerto Rico at public expense , and to go off on a few jaunts to investigate the possibility of Cancom.

What the hon. gentleman did \11i.ll ao nothing to solve the problems of marketing the fish in this Province. So for greater success, Mr. Speaker, in the fishery '"e need immediately, Mr. Speaker- \'le need this year, we cannot wait much longer - 3:1Rn

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1601 ~1J - l MR. S. NEARY: if we only can get the hon.gentleman's mind off oil, if we can get their minds away from Gil for five or ten minutes. All t~ey can do is think about oil, t~ey dream about it, they eat it. Thev have .,i_l on the brain, If we can only just, 1·1r. Speaker, get them away from visions of becoming oil sheiks for a few minutes and pay a little attentior to the fishery in this Province. MR. TULK: The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) thought he was going to be a Hollywood staron television. MR.

NEARY: Oh well I know he used to strum the , , . guitar and yodle at one time. What was it they used to call him? Chubby Charlie. MR. WARREN: Yes, he is wearing his cowboy boots now. MR. NEARY: Perhaps our hon. friend from Alberta will bring him down a Calgary hat next time. Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation ''Vi"> l;rought in by a Liberal Government, the legislation had tcbe passed in the House of Commons and concurrent legislation in the provincial legislature jn order to (]Ct the Cu.nadian Su.lt !,ish CoqJ<Jration.

Now in onlc'r t-o amend the terms of reference of the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation this government has to take the initiative,A niece of legislation has to be brought into this House and at tne same time a piece of legislation brought into the House of Commons askinq that the terms of reference of the Canadian Salt Fish r.orporation be amended to include all the produce of the sea. It is either that or bring in a piece of leqisl u.tion setting up a Provincial Marketing Corporation. And the lonqer we put it off, Mr. Speaker, the more serious the crisis in the fishery is qoing to get. MR.

TOBIN: Which one would you rather have? 318'!

June 23, 1982 Tape No . 1601 MJ - 2 t1R . S. NEARY : Which \vOuld I rather have ? It -·---------- -- ·- is six of one and half a dozen of the other as far as I am concerned . MH • 'l'OU [ N : Which way would you t"ather go? MR . NEARY : We have the machi nery se t up for the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation, we have the administrative ability to do it there in the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation, maybe that is the route to take . I am not su re , If I had the facts and fiqures at my finqertips I would be able to tell you . But certainly, Mr . Speaker, we have no choice . The Mi nister of Pisheries (Mr. J .

Morgan) has to address himself to that problem soon and stop t;1i:> gallava nting arou nd t"le Bahama:; and the West Indies and Nestern Canada, sipping on cocktails whil e the Newfoundland Pishery is qoinq down the tube . SOM£ liON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MIL NI~/\RY : ~tr . Spcnkcr, the other problem we "vw~ in the Newfoundland Fi:;hery is quality of the product . ~~ R ?

June 23, 1982, Tape 1602, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Speaker, again we are talking about provincial jurisdiction when we are talking about quality control. In recent years some of the plants, I know a lot of the plants out in my own district, have made great strides toward improving the quality of the product. MR. HEARN: than fish. MR. NEARY: More quality control Mr. Speaker, they seem to want to make a joke out of everything. Everything seems to be a big joke to this administration. They have their forty-four seats and that, Mr.

Speaker, was not a mandate to become arrogant and make a joke out of everything. The hon. gentleman is another one who should sit there for the next year and just listen and maybe he will learn something. AN HON. MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HEARN: MR. NEARY: From whom? Hear, hear! I know all about wind. Mr. Speaker, there is a movement toward improving the quality of the Newfoundland fish. This will have a big bearing on whether or not we can sell our fish in the market place and whether or not the processors and the fishermen and the plant workers will get a fair return on their efforts. This is crucial, Mr.

Speaker, and very important to the future development of the fishery in this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of other points that I am sure my colleagues would want to make, especially the hon. gentleman who introduced the resolution. When he winds up the debate, no doubt he will summarize all the matters, all the points that have been raised. But I am going to support the resolution, Mr. Speaker, and I would encourage all ~181

June 23, 1982, Tape 1602 , Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: hon. gentlemen of th~s House, unless they want the fishery to be completely wiped out in this Province, they should all support this resolution and this kind of proposal put forward by the Opposition of this Province . Mr . Speaker, there aJ;e so many other points that I could raise in connection with the fishery that I cannot d.o i1;: in twen ·ty minutes . But I '"ould like to ask the hon . gentleman 1 who seems to be ready now to leap on his feet over there , to tell us what process, what procedure is used to dole out the crab licences in this Province .

We have a situation on ·the Southern Shore , Mr. Speaker, lvhere a few years ago the owners of fish plants on the Southern Shore s.old their plants to an American company, to American interests, and only a fe1v weeks ago, a few months ago the Newfoundland Government had to take them over and pass them back to the previous owners as a gift, practically gave them to them .

And one of the stipulations of giving them back their p l ant that they had sold and made millions of do.llars off, to this American company, was thai;: they get a crab licence . ~d the hon . gentleman caved in and gave them the crab .licence , 3~Ri.

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1603 MR. NEARY: and now we have three crab licences on the Southern Shore. And we have another gentleman, another fish processing company, with four crab licences that are only using two out of the four. Mr. Speaker, are these licences passed out along political lines or how are they distributed? How does one go about getting a crab licence in this Province? Do you have to cosy up to the minister, cosy up to the administration? Is it another form of political partronage? Is that the kind of planning and development we are getting into the fishery of this Province?

It SD - 1 would certainly seem that way, Mr. Speaker. In the meantime I think my time hasjust about expired. I only wish I had more time to talk about this matter, Mr. Speaker, because,as I said in the beginning, the fishery is still the backbone of the economy of this Province and it is the thing that has been neglected most by this administration. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please. MR. NEARY: else only oil, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. MORGAN: They can think of nothing The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr.

Speaker - Hear, hear. -I feel almost obligated to speak on a motion involving the most important industry we have, a renewable resource, the fishing industry and the fishery 1 and to have a few comments on what is happening in the industry today and what the future is for tomorrow and down the road. Now I find it rather ironic, to say the very least, that the Opposition would put a rcsolulioJl of this nature on the Order Paper and refer to the fact that the Newfoundland government, the provincial government, has no policy on the fishery.

Now the fact is that many members may be - and I recall some member today asking a question, what do the different governments have jurisdiction 3:\A'i

- ..... June 23, 1982 Tape No.l603 so - 2 MR. ~10RGAN : over in the fishing industry. And there are many people out there, I kno•., many .fi shermen are confused because in my travels I try to clarify it as much as possible to all the fishermen what the different responsibilities and jurisdictions are of the two governments . And let us make it quite clear that nowhere else in the country , I do not think, in the country of Canada is an industry that is so important to a province controlled so much by someone who does not even live in the Province unci the bt1sc of operations is not in the Province , is located in OttavTa . Because the fact is everything that is 3:lA R

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1604 IB-1 MR. MORGAN: done in the harvesting sector of the fishing industry is under the control of the federal level of government. Everything on the water, everything in the fishing boat, a licence for the fishermen, licence for the fishing boat, how much fish the fishermen will catch, what quotas will be allocated to the different types of species and for fishermen, what type of qear the fishermen will use to fish, how much fish they will bring in from all different species, all of these things are under the control of the federal qovernment.

We have no say whatsoever with regards to these important matters in the fishing industry. In other words,we have no say over the overall management of the resource itself. And the resource itself is the key. It is a renewable resource. Back in 1977 when we saw the declaration of the 200 mile economic zone,I recall there was jubilation among the people in this Assembly because I was here as a member and I recall the jubilation of the Newfoundland fishermen. 'Now we are going to have a fishery.

Finally we are going to get rid of all of those foreiqn fishermen who have been rapinq our fjsh stocks for years down to the point of almost depletion, the Russians taking as high as 200,000 metric tons a year of caplin. And the foreign fleets, Spanish, Portuguese, West Gern.any, the Russians and others taking as high as 250,000 or 300,000 metric tons of cod, raping our fish stocks." We said, 'God bless the decision of Ottawa'. I recall Mr. Jamieson then was Minister of External Affairs. ~:r. Carter was up there in Ottawa.

Jim McGrath was there in Ottawa, John Lundriqan and I think Ambrose Peddle and they were all jubilant. 'Finally we are going to have an industry that is going to be managed properly and we are going to have the resource built up to become a very 3~87

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1604 IB-2 MR. t-10RGAN: important, vibrant industry for Newfoundland . But what happens in 1981 and 1982? Oh, what happens! Ne talk about management of our resource, our resource that is now being given away by the people who control it in Ottawa . Why would there be a secret deal made with Cuba to give away 5,000 metric tons of squid? lvhy would there bl.! a secret <leal ma<lc with the .JnJ.>«nesc to qive away 17 ,000 metri c tons of squid?

Why would there be a deal made without consultation with the fishermen , the Fishermen's Union, the Newfoundland Government, the processors to qive away 103,000 metric tons of fish to Russia last year? Why is it now that the Prime Minister last week sitting down with the governme nt officials in Spain- and the nerve as Minister of Fisheries to stand in the House of Commons and to answer a question from my good friend , Jim HcGrath, the member of Parliament . Is there a deal made. Because I had Made the charge provincially here there was a deal made .

Prime Minister Trudeau went into Spain and said, 'N ow , Spain, we will qive you a deal . You be good boys outside the 200 mile economic zone and stop your indiscriminate fishing, stop overfishing the stocks ,an d we will give you a deal. We will give you 5, 000 metric tons of cod:. the Northern cod . But where woul d it come from? t-1r. Speaker, it has been denied 3~B.A

June 23,1982 Tape No. 1605 ah-1 MR.MORGAN: by the Prime Minister's office, by Kirby from the office, it has been denied by Mr.LeBlanc. But how did they deny it? They denied it by saying there is no signed agreement. But, Mr.Speaker, I can stand today and say that I know that a deal has been made. And where is the 5,000 tons going to come from? The Spanish fleet will be within our waters, my guess is a maximum of twenty-one days from now, coming over to take what?

To take the 5,000 metric tons of Northern cod that is going to be taken from the inshore quota for our fishermen, from our inshore quota.Because all the foreign allocations are qone. AN HON. MEMBER: You listen to that. MR.MORGAN: ~ll the orfshore allocations of fish to foreign nations,there is a certain portion left from their qHota to be allocated for foreign, so-called,trade agreements~ So that portion of fish­ there is nothing left in the offshore quota, it is all gone,so they have to find 5,000 tons for Spain. And a chap by the name of Tony Campbell,the chief negotiator for Mr.

LeBlanc's office ,sat down with a group of negotiators from Spain, with an official from our department as an observer , as an observer, Mr. Speaker, that is all the level he had at the meeting, to observe Mr. Campbell, an official, say to the Spanish people, 'Yes, we will give you 5,000 tons' . And the official,an ADM from my department ,posed a question,"Where will the 5,000 tons of cod come from, Mr. Campbell? "Oh", he says, "vie know that the inshore fishermen are not going to catch their quota this year." And 'llY ADM says, "Well,how do you know that Mr. Campbell?" "Oh, we know that. They are not 3~Rq

..! June 23,1982 Tape No. 1605 ah-2 MR.MORGAN: going to catch the fish. They had a problem last year with cold water and there is no assurance at all that the fishermen of Newfoundland are going to catch their allocation, their allowance, so we will take 5,000 tons." They are going to take 5,000 tons of the fish allocated to our fishermen, our inshore fishermen and give it to the Spaniards. It has been denied but it is fact. That is the kind of management I am talking about,which is of concern to us, management of the resource. Now, Mr.

Speaker, a further problem in the management of the resource is the fact that we have what they call flags of convenience of the foreign countries. There are the Mexicans, there a~e the Arqentines, there are the Cub~ns and from Peru as well fishing,and they are also usinq ships from the European fleet flying these flags ,that are fishing out on the nose and tail of the Grand Banks. And J recall saying at a risheries conference in Grand Bank,no longer than two years ago,that unless we have some control over the nose and tail of the Grand Banks we will have no fish to catch to put in the plants on the South Coast.

Nobody listened to what T was saying. nut the fact is now that there is no longer any fish out there, there is no longer any fish out there. Mr. Speaker, only three minutes left. My goodness I did not even get on the topic. MR. YOUNG: Twenty minutes. Twenty minutes is not up yet,is it? Jlii.R.MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. I am not going to question the Speaker. He says three minutes. 3~qn

June 23, 1982 Tape 1606 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: But let me put in capsule form some of the problems, and let me say, Mr. Speaker, that within ten days time this government is goinq to make public, the Premier and myself, the most comprehensive document on the policies of this government on fisheries ever put forward "<' before. It is comprehensive, involving the harvesting sector, the processing sector, and the marketing sector. I hope youmade~a mistake in my time, Mr. Speaker, hopefully! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please: The hon. Minister of Fisheries has thirteen minutes rather than three minutes. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. MORGAN: Now we will get on to the topic Now, Mr. Speaker, I talked about management of the resource, now let us talk about some of the problems that I recognize that we have got to take and deal with. The fishermen them- selves have qot to be more diversified in what they are fishing for. Now I am hoping from hereon in to be at least non-partisan, non-political, talk about some serious problems we have in the fishing industry. The fishermen have got to be more diversified in their harvesting activity.

They have to be able to fish different species, more species, and that is where we are doing what we can as a government here. Despite the fact the federal government controls and has jurisdiction over responsibility for all the activities of fishermen, what do we do? Well,we supplied last year $23 million, we gave out to fishermen in loans, and we gave out a further figure,I think it is of around $3 million,last year in grants or bounties, outright grants to fishermen. What for? What for?

To help ther.. become more diversified, to help them get better boats, better equipment, to help them fish,as I say,more species. ~ ::l q .,

June 23, 19S2 Tape No. 1606 NM - 2 1·1R. MOHGl\N: The licencing policy of the federal government right now is restrictive . tt is too restrictive . It is preventing young fishermen getting involved in the fishing industry. We have young people today who want to be involved and carry on where their fathers have left off . ·Their fathers have been fishermen ,,u tht•.ir lives <1nd the young people wnnt to move i n to take over the fi s p~ng boats of their fathers, etc., they cannot do i t .

There is no provision in the present licencing system to not only encourage but to enable , young fishermen to get involved in the fis hing industry . These licencing policies of the federal government must be changed . They have to be more flexible . Mr. Speaker , we have , I mentioned today , 231 processing plants around the Province . These pl ants l as t year process ed a total amount of 470,000 metric tons of f ish. ·rhat fish was sold in the market place valued at $430 million. MR . TULK: How much? MH . MORGAN: $4 30 million was the value of our export of fish , seafood from Newfoundland. 3:\Cj?

June 23, 1982, Tape 1607, Page 1 -- apb MR. TULK: Was that 1981? MR. MORGAN: In 1981, which was down approximately 20,000 metric tons from the year before which was not too bad, because '81 was supposed to be a real bad year with regard to the total catch. MR. TULK: down. MR. MORGAN: But the value was not But the value was approximately the same, the value of the fish last year compared to 1980. Now, at the time that that fish was caught and processed, mostly during the inshore fishing season, we had fish plants which were only operating around 45 per cent to 48 per cent of their total capacity.

In other words, they were only utilizing less than half of their capacity. So we have a problem which we are now dealing with, a problem whereby we have to find more fish for those inshore seasonal - we call them resource shore plants. Now how do we get that fish? The inshore fishermen fish, say, from the middle of May up until the end of October and then they quit fishing. Because of weather conditions and other reasons they just do not fish beyond these periods, nor outside these periods, on the Northeast coast in particular.

So we have to find a supply of fish from other than the inshore to be landed and processed in these plants,for processing during what I would term the off season to the inshore season. And if we can do that -and we finally made some progress last year with the federal government. After hassle after hassle, meeting after meeting, we finally persuaded the federal minister to set aside an allocation of fish from the offshore waters, an offshore allocation to be set aside for what reason? To be caught and landed and processed in the inshore plants in Newfoundland. 3:Jq~

June 23, 1982, Tape 1607, Page 2 -- apb MR. TULK: Whose quota was that? MR. MORGAN: That carne from the offshore quota, the total offshore quota for the Canadian fleet. Mr. Speaker, that quota was allocated initially at 10,000 metric tons. And I have no hesitation in saying that that 10,000 metric tons would have been the answer to the problems of the inshore, resource shore plants. And I can name some of them off: Well, Ocean Harvesters have their own trawler now, but their is Job Brothers, and there is Quinlan Brothers, and there is E.P.Janes and this type of medium sized operators.

And that was a firm allocation given at a meeting with the minister and the federal minister, the provincial ministers. But suddenly, and I have said it before, I think, I am not sure if I said it in the House of Assembly, because of the greed of the big four companies who wanted all that offshore quota, because there is an offshore quota for the dragger fleet, or the offshore deep-sea fleet, the pressure was put on Mr. Leblanc in Ottawa Qnd he reduced it from 10,000 metric tons to 5,000 metric tons.

So this year this is a figure out there now, a quota of 5,000 metric tons which is to be caught later on this Fall and landed and processed in the resource shore plants. Now that is going to help a lot, it is a good beginning. It is not enough , but a good beginning. MR. TULK: Who is going to do it? MR. MORGAN: The question is who will do it? The question is that up until now these independent operators,through the Fish Trades Association in particular, have arranged to engage foreign vessels - foreign vessels would catch the fish and land it in the plants to be processed here in Newfoundland. That was 3::1~4

June 23, 1982 Tape 1608 PK - l MR. MORGAN: done last year because the plants do not have trawlers themselves. So that is a problem that is being overcome,not sufficiently, but there is a start being made. Now, Mr. Speaker, we talked about plant expansion. I am not convinced that the federal government is not right when they say there has been too much expansion~ ~nd that is the reason why this government took the step last July and put a freeze on.

That freeze is on right now, the freeze is on for no more new fish plants, no more additional licences, no more expansion. ~Je did not have any control over the expansion of fish plants that took place by the Nickerson firm, for example, National Sea,to some extent,and others. They went to Ottawa. We gave them a licence to operate in a small facility. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: They had a licence to operate in a small facility , Mr. Speaker, and suddenly they go to Ottawa and ask for money from Ottawa,from DREE,and with the blessing of the Federal Minister (Mr.

LeBlanc), who has been there for a good many years now,out carne the funds. The funds just poured out the last five years from Ottawa to t;~es0 ':j sh companies to build big multipurpose fish plants all alonq the Northeast coast. Some of them today are closed. So we sai6,'0kay, if that is the way it is going to be, Ottawa is going to let all these expansions occur,we are going to stop it. So we stopped it. Now a company ,cannot expand its nlants~ AN HON. MEMBER: No way . MR. MORGAN: They cannot expand their plants so- .A.N II OtT. !1E!1BER: (inaudible) MR.

HORGAU: You \-rill take up my time. ~·~aybe after my time is up, then if you 1.-1ant to ask questions 3::l~~

June 23, 1982 Tape 1608 PK - 2 AN HON. MEMBER: By leave! By leave! MR. MORGZ\N: If these companies are going to do that we are going to say, 'We are going to control your expansion'. So right now we have in place a regulation which prevents any company from expanding their operations without our approval. If a plant, for example, in Petty Harbour, if a plant in Harbour Grace wants to expand their operation with the existing licence they have, they now have to come to us for approval to do so. MR. YOUNG: Right on. MR. MORGZ\N: In the past they did not have to do that.

So that is a new change with regard to plant capacity and expansion. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is so much on that part. The fish is now in the plant, in my line of thinking here, in my fevJ notes I have, in the plant. Now what happens to the fish? And that is what is wronq with our fishing industry, Mr. Speaker. I do not think I have said it too much in the past, but the problem is when the fish gets from the boat to the plant, the processor has the fish in his plant, what is he going to do with it? That is the whole problem. And what has he been doing with it?

Most of the fish that we have been sellinq in Newfoundland have been going down to the Northeastern part of the U.S.A. in cod block form. Cod block is like a big block of raw material going down - and I went down last year and toured seven plants, I toured seven plants in New England and the Northeastern part of the U.S.l\., seven large fish plants doing what? They were makinq fish sticks, battered fish pieces, all kinds of beautifully packaqed fish pieces going into boxes, going out to the institutions, schools, hospitals 33~R

June 23, 1982 Tape 1609 MJ - J MR. J. MORGAN : and the jails etcetera all across the States, to the institutions and to the retail outlets. All our raw material and they putting it in these beautiful packages in the final processed form. When I came back the first thing I did was call together all the companies in a meeting down in Atlantic Place and I said, 'l•'ellows, for goodness sake stop dishing out the fish in raw form like that'. Down in the U.S.A. there is a good market for prime filets. Iceland and Norway are down there marketing the right way.

They are marketing good quality product and they are marketing it in a very co-ordinated, consolidated way. They are not ~oinq out in different directions, different companies, they got their act together, they formed only two agencies it takes all the fish from Iceland, two agencies takes all the fish from Norway and they go into the States and they do a good marketing job with a good quality product, the same kind of product we can produce here. We have a good raw material. Our fish supply is coming from the coldest waters of North America, it has been determined by scientists.

It is the best raw material anywhere in the fishing industry that you find right off Newfoundland, the Northern cod from cold waters. And we could provide good top quality product. Now, if we do not provide good top quality product, the other countries are going to take the market from us. And if we keep on providing cod block raw material and do not get more involved in - for example, back in 1979 the figure was 70 per cent of the fish produced in Newfoundland was going into the States. Yes, 70 per cent was going in cod blocks.

As of last year, it was down to 55 per cent, and the objective of the Newfoundland government, working with the companies, is by 1984 to have that ~eversed the other way. We will have 70 per cent of the fish going into the U.S., in particular, going in cod filet, and 3::107

June 23, 1982 Tape 1609 MJ - 2 1-1R . J . ~!ORGAN : only 30 per cent going in cod block . Because if that was done , we would get better prices, better returns to the processors and we would have ,, <JOOd constnnt market in the U.S./\.. Now , that is one of the key things, getting the quality and getting a good product . Mr . Sp eaker . the market . Now, I want to add to that , We have got to have a co -ordinated activity of Unless the companies get their act together , the compc:m ies - look, a fe.,., days ago , Mr .

Speaker , I was appalled to learn that the Lake Group were down in the States undercutting f'ishery Products . 1\N HON . !11EMBER : What? MR . MORGAN : Fishery Products were down under - cuttin cJ the Lake Group in the Market place, undercutting them alon<J carne Nickerson/National Sea , which is now one firm, they go in ad undercut the prices of Lakes . The Lakes undercut them . Nmv, who is laughing? I will tell you who is laughing in the market place, the people who are buying our fish .

But when I say it ,' Oh ' the companies say , 'there goe s Horgan attacking us again .' But it is true and it is very, very unfortunate . \~e have got to have the companies co-ordinate and consolidate their marketing cfrort , if not the people down in tho Stiltes who are ;;\~ ~ R

June 23, 1982 Tape No.l6l0 SD - l MR. MORGAN: buying our fish are going to continue to laugh at us. So there has got to be a good quality produced, a good product and then the companies get their act together to make sure they are doing it all together in co-ordination, not in competition but in co-ordination, then we are going to have a good fishery and a good potential in the market place. Now we have been advocating, the Premier and this government,for some time the need for a consortium of the other companies. I am talking about the big four.

You know,I mentioned the big four­ National Sea, Nickersons, the Lakes and Fishery Products. Then we have all kinds of small companies. We have something like seventy-odd small companies around the Province that are doing their own thing; they produce a bit of fish, buy a bit of fish, produce a bit of fish, try to market it~ ~hey have no marketing organization and they are depending on the big companies to market for them. So we said, 'Look, for goodness sake, form a consortium of companies and get together and you will be strong as one group'.

And I am very pleased to tell the House that a consortium called Sunsea, S-u-n-s-e-a, is a consortium of ten companies to date, ten small companies in Newfoundland. They have now formed a consortium to do what? - to market their product as one - one brand label, one company and marketing mostly in the USA. That is a good beginning as well. We are working with them to expand on that. MR. NEARY: They all get together to market their gnnn~. MR. MORGAN: Just for marketing only. Now, Mr. Speaker, I wish I could go on but my time is up, I have only one minute left. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. WARREN: By leave. No. 33qq

June 23, 1982 NR . MORGAN : MR. WARREN : MR. MORGAN : Tape No . 1610 so - 2 By leave for five minutes or so? No, no. The hon. gentleman from Labrador says no,I guess he does not want - MR . WARREN : Okay, five minutes . MR. SPEAKER(Aylward) : By leave? MR. MORGAN: - five minutes , alright. Mr . Speaker, so if \o~e could have the co-operation of the companies - t-1R . SPEAKER: 1\N liON . MEMBER : t-1R . NEARY : MR . MORGAN : clue up . MR . SPEAKER: MR. NEARY : Order, please ! He h.::~s leave . There is no lea ve. Oh, Hr. Speaker, I will Order, please!

Give us a few plans for the fishe ry and we will give you leave , but not for that rubbi sh. MR . MORGAN: Mr . Speaker, the hon . gentle- man does not want to hear the plans of the go vernment, that is his problem . t-IR. NEARY: Oh, sit down, you are making a fool of yourself . MR. t-IORGAN : Mr . Speaker , I will clue up by saying in my one minute I have left - MR . NEARY : Sit down, your time is up . MR . HORGAN : - by saying, Mr . Speaker, that - MR . NEARY : A point of order Mr . Speaker . MR . HORGAN: Oh, look how childish the hon . gentlem an is . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon .

Leader of the Opposition . 31, nn

June 23 , 1982 Tape No . 1610 so - 3 MR . MORGAN: Her e is a compa ny f ro m his district (inaudible) . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh : MR . MORGAN : Oh, Mr . Speaker . MR. SP EAKERlAylw ard): Ord er, please : time has elapsed . Mountains . MR . WARREN : The hon . Minister of Fisheries ' The hon member for Tornga t Than k you, Mr . Speaker . I ri se , Mr . Speaker , in support of this motion that my colleague from Fogo (Mr .Tulk} put forward and I am surprised that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) did not support the motion , he did not say whether he would support the motion or not . 3 4 n ·1

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1611 IB-1 MR . W~RR ~ N: But my colleague from Bonavista North (Mr. Cross), one of the most outstanding fishing districts in the Province ,said he would not support the motion. So,therefore 1 I can gather from that that the member from Bonavista North does not care whether the fishery fails or survives. He will not support a motion that is calling for the survival of the fishery in this Province.

I am surprised a man whocomes from a f~mily who have been noted as one of the outstanding fishing families in this Province could get up here and not support a motion that is asking for some action to help the survival of the fishery. MR. TOBIN: He was your teacher, was he not? MR. WARREN: That is right, he was my teacher and I must admit that he was one of the better teachers that I have had. He was a much better teacher than you were a welfare officer,I will tell you that. However, Mr. Speaker, I want to get back to this very important motion.

I can say now without any contradiction that the number one problem with the fishery in this Province is the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). That is the number one problem with the fishery in this Province at the present time. So I have a feeling, ~~r. Speaker - and we have known, Mr. Speaker, at least I have known since 1979,when the former Minister of Fisheries, Walter Carter, resiqned,that that was the downfall in the fisherv in Newfoundland and Labrador. When Mr.

Carter resiqned or was sort of pushed into the background, when he lost the leadership and resigned, that was the beginning of the decline of the Newfoundland fishery. And who did we get in place of him? The present Minister of Fisheries,and we know, Mr. Speaker, what his record speaks for. 340/

June 23, 1982 Tape No . 1611 lB -2 MR. WARREN: The Minister of Fisheries is more interested in selling televisions than he is in looking after the fishery of this Province . So, Mr . Speaker, if the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) would pay more attention to the vital industry that we have in this Provi nce, the fishery , instead of looking after pay television,then t would think, Mr . Speaker, that we would have a much better fishery in this Province today . Now, Mr . Speaker, the minister ans we red a cruesti on from my hon . colleague from Fogo (Mr .

Tulk) that there are 239 proces si ng plants in this Province . Now ,whether that is too many or not enough 1 will not argue with bil'l . I have my reservations on the pro s and the cons of )c. then all of the sudden However, let me - and the minister got up and he started rhyming off the money that he gave to the different fish plants . Today, with the glut in the fishery because of the overlapping of the cod coming in and the abundance of the caplin , out on the isthmus of the Peninsula a fish plant, 3L01

June 23, 1982 Tape 1612 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: a practically new fish plant in the member for Placentia's district, a practically new fish plant, the equipment is there ready to turn the button, away to go, and this fish plant has been closed down for the past two years. ~1R. TULK: What? MR. WARREN: It has been closed down. In the han. member for Placentia's district it was closed down last year and has been closed down at least up until today. M:R, PATTERSON: Where is that? MR. WARREN: In Little Harbour East. MR. NEARY: Argentia. MR. WARREN: It is in Little Harbour East. MR.

PATTE~SON: Not the fish plant at Petite Forte . MR. WARREN: No, in Little Harbour East. Yes. And up until today it has been closed down, closed down all last year, took in - MR. PATTERSON: Excuse me. Would you permit a question? MR. WARREN: After my twenty minutes you have twenty minutes to talk. Okay? MR. NEARY: And you can give us a lecture on resettlment after. MR. WARREN: Okay. MR. PATTERSON: A point of order. ~_::~ake:r;~~ichruas): A point of order, the bon. member for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is possibly - he is as much familiar with Little Harbour as I am.

He knows well - if you were an honest man you would come out and give the reason. MR. WARREN: I am going to now. MR. PATTERSON: Do it. Well,do not ask me. If you know the reason - never ask a question unless you want an answer. 3hn4

June 23 , 1982 Tape No .l612 NM-2 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear ! MR. WARREN : --- --------- Mr . Speaker, T do not think it is a point of order . If the member for Placentia was doiny his hom ew ork the fi sh plant would be open . And that is the problem , the member for Plac~,tia is not doing his homework . The reason ~he fish plant is not open is because this government doe s not want that fish plant ope n. MR . NEARY : Right on ! Right on ! MR . lvARREN : That is the reason . You have your twenty minutes afterwards to talk about it .

The people out there on April 6th .qavc that member a mandate , the [irst time ever that community voted - and they ~.,rere expecting that that member would really :ight for them to get that fish plant opened . MR. PAT TERSON : And I thank them for it . MR . SPEAKER( McNis:holas) : Order , please! MR . WARREN : Now, l'tr . Speaker, we have a ne w fish plant . And this is the Minister of Pisheries(Mr . Morgan) talking about - MR . PATTERSON : Are you worried about this? MR . SPEAKER : Order, please ! Order , please! To th.:tt point of order T think 1 h.1vc hc.:trd enough .

Tt seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether the olant is open or closed . so there is no point of order . MR. WARREN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a good ruling . However , Mr . Speaker, this is just an example, of the Minister of F'isb.eries, saying, 'Look , we opened up this olant, and we opened up that one ', 3 ~ ~·, c;

June 23, 1982, Tape 1613, Page l -- apb MR. WARREN: and he still leaves a plant out there where there are something like 600 fishermen on that isthmus, in Trinity and Placentia Bays, and yesterday and today, and on Friday and Saturday they had to dump their fish. With a fish plant within a twelve mile radius, 900 fishermen had to dump their fish. Now, whose responsibility is that? The Minister of Fisheries federally(Mr. Leblanc) is that his responsibility, plants? 09ening up provincial fish I remember during a by election - you talk about chaos in the fishery in this Province- the Minister of Fisheries(Mr.

Morgan) went into a town in the Bellevue district and sat down at a meeting in the Lion's Club and said, 'Look, I have a processors licence here for you to operate your fish plant'. This was during an election. He pulled out the processors licence for this individual company, while twelve miles away there was a large fish plant closed down. Now, this is what I am trying to say, Mr. Speaker, the chaos in the fishery is caused by the present minister. But then again, Mr. Speaker, there are some things on which I have to agree with the Minister of Fisheries.

I must admit that the freeze that is placed on the licences by the federal government is terrible. I would be the first - in fact, I have correspondence six inches thick, to the Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa, with requests for - just to give you an example, in my own district a fisherman there can only fish the char or the salmon fishery. Because he only had a small eighteen foot boat,and with only a two month fishing season he cannot afford to get a bigger boat, what does he do? He fishes the char or the salmon fishery. 34nR

June 23, 1982, Tape 1613, Page 2 -- apb MR. WARREN : Now his young fellow eighteen years of age wants to go fishing. He cannot get a salmon licence or a char licence so he is left with nothing to do but live off the Minister of Social Services(Mr . Hickey). And this is happening all along the Labrador coast. I think it is ridiculous . I told the Hinister of Fisheries in Ottawa , person to person, that what he has done with the fishermen in these instances is just ridiculous. And I must admit , \o~ith the Minister of Fisheries in our Province , that this freeze has to be lifted in circumstances of this kind . Mr.

Speaker, I think catching caplin at this time of year means a good income for fishermen. But, and I said this last year in speaking on a resolution concerning the fishery and I will say it again, 31. fi7

.1unc 23, 1982 Tape No . 1 G 1 4 PK -1 MR . 1'/.ARREN: --·--------- part of the blame has to tJO on the fishermen themse lves . Because 1"hat they are doing, they may not realize it, with the lackadaisical regulations that both qovcrnmcnts have in place , i.f the fishermen continue to take the caplin and seperate the male from the female, as they are doinq nm-1, I am pretty ,,,ell conv inced, Mr . Speaker, that in five years from n0111 our caplin fishery may be destroyed .

I have a feelinc; the federal biologists and the provincial people should '"ork hand in hand in trying to preserve the caplin fishery, because the cod fishery depends on the cap lin fishery . And if they continue to in!'it t<Jke tho fernnle ilncl sell them anc'l th en destroy the male - you can qo out into any community now in Placentia Bay or Trinity Bay or Bonavista Bay or on the Southern Shore and you will see the shoreline , in about three or four feet of water , just corn~letely white and silver, dead caplin all over the place . And I think the hon . member for. St . Mary ' s - 'fhe Ca;>es (Mr .

Hearn) 111ill agree . The fishermen are partly to blame, but both governments ha.ve to take the blow, because they issued those caplin licences . And \o/hat is happening no\.,r is - 1\N . liON. MEMBER: \\1ho issues the caplin licences? MR. I" 1\RREN: The caplin licence is ------- i SSlt1~ d L1y the fedl~r.tl <JOV<~ t: nmont . Uut the Province has the r>lants in place , so you are processinq them . And this is the problem, as I say, both governments could stop the issuing of caplin lice nces, and the processi ng licences. Therefore, what I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, is that both governments aim is to destroy the caplin fishery . And if this happens , they ar.e qoing to des~~oy the cod fishery . 31 .. i1 R

June 23, 1982 Tape No.l6l4 PK-2 ~-\vARREN: ! want to qo to my district for a little while, Mr. Speaker, and discuss the involvement of this Province to~ith the two provincially owned fish plants, tHo !=lants solely 01-med by the provincial <)ovcrnrncnt. Now my colleague, the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) will agree with me now that if the government O\ms a fish plant at least they have scme jurisdiction over that fish plant. MR. NEARY: Right. That is so. MR. WARREN: NO\., let me tell you something. The .federal government has some $3.5 million - now this is good ne1·rs. The ~1inister of Fisheries {Mr.

Morgan just gave us some <JOOd news, no1·1 I am goimJ to qive the !louse some good news. The federal government has some $3.5 million to put into the two fish plants in Nain and t4akkovik. NOvl, however, they cannot get an agreement from the Province because the Province mo~ns the fish plants. ::\IJjiQ

.L • June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1615 IB-1 MR. WARREN: The ?rovince owns the fish plants and they will not let the federal government spend 'noney on those fish plants. So, you know, it is amazing to seea minister who is so anxious to see our fishery survive that he and his government will not give permission to use federal money in the reactivation and expansionand repairing of the fish plants that are owned by this government. This is what the fishermen along the Labrador Coast have to contend with. HR. CARTP.R: No strin<JS attached~ MR. WARREN: No strings attached. In fact, yes, there is a strinq attached.

Oh yes, there is a string attached. MR. NEARY: MR. WJ\RREN: That they have to operate them. No, that once the fish plants are brought up to par they will be turned over to the Co-op? That is the string that is attached. MR. TULK: The Tornqat Co-op? MR. WARREN: Yes, that is right. That is the string that is attached, and that is a very simple string,because that plant is turned overinthe hands of the people. MR. NEARY: They want to turn it over to their buddies. MR. WARREN: That is right. That is right. They want to bring in a private company from somewhere on the Island to operate the fish plant. MR.

TULK: Let me tell the members. Why do they not go down to Foqo Island and learn that Co-ops are one of the best operators of fish plants in thi~ Province. MR. WARREN: Sure the Co-op is. In fact , a lot of credit has to go to Don Best on Fogo Island for 341n

June 23, 1982 MR . WARREN: MR . MORGAN : .R . NEARY: it to their buddies then . MR. TULK: Tape No. 1615 IB-2 operating this Co-op . The minister bailed them out. They would not be able to give You did not bail them out. You have never bailed them out . Through Rural Development you may have provided qrants for expansion but that is it. MR . MORGAN: We will leave it to that . ~1R • l·IARREN : I am going to speak when some of you members - So, Mr. Spea~er, only about a month ago we remember the Premier (Mr . Peckford) of this Province, the t-linister or Fisheries (Mr .

Morgan),'Look, go in and stop the fishermen of St . Anthony' . Do you remember that? 'We are going to stop the fishermen of St. Anthony from fishing'. That was it . MR. TULK: That is what the Premier said . HR . lvARREN: Yes. But,however, Mr. Spc.:tkcr, r believe the people ln St. Barbe, the people in St. Anthony have gotten the message . They said, 'Okay, Mr. Peckford or Mr. Morgan, you try to stop us from fishing '. And who bailed out St . Anthony? Them bad, bad boy~ from Ottawa . And, Mr. Speaker, let us give them credit where credit is due.

The provincial government has bailed out fi sh plants throuqhout the Province . \oJhy have thev not opened up the fish plant in Little Harbour East? Maybe the member for Placer ~ia (Mr . Patterson) might know the answer. I do not know . :H 11

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1616 ah - 1 MR. WARREN: The member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) might know the answer. But I will tell you one of the answers. One of the answers is that the people in Little Harbour East cannot aqree because this government has them so confused, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WARREN : Mr. Speaker, the minister said his department has given out some $23 million in loans. That $23 million, Mr. Speaker, has 0one a long way to help alleviate the problems with people finding employment throughout the fishery, however, it has not gone far enough.

The meat cleaver, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) brought down a Budget, brought down a Budget and what did he do? He raised the interest on fishermen's loans - remember that? - from 8 per cent to 12 per cent, you know, a 50 per cent increase to the fishermen of t:!Li s l'rovi nee, to th e people of this l'rovince, <:1 50 per cent increase on loan interest. Now, this is what the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) of this Province, the meat cleaver, has done. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in conjunction with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) said, 'Okay, here is a good chance now to get a few more dollars for. the kitty, let us jack up the rates of interest on loans 50 per cent'. Now, Mr. Speaker, is that a good way, an encouraging way to keep fishermen fishing? Is that encouraging? I do not see where the encouragement is. MR. SIMMS: Does the hon. member (inaudible). MR. WARREN: I would like to advise the hon. member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) that I caught more cod fish in my day than the hon. member for Grand Falls ever saw. I would think that the member for Grand Falls would not know what a cod fish lou~8d like.

I caught more cod fish when the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) was trying to teach me - I would get up at four o'clock in the morning, before I would go to school, and ~ 4 1?

' June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1616 ah - 2 MR. WARREN: go out and help my grandfather haul the codtrap and then I would come back and the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) would try to teach me. And he had a job, you know. In closing, Hr. Speaker, I want to say that I support this resolution. ~I, 11

June 23, 1982 Tape No . 1617 MJ - 1 MR . ~ARREN _:_ I want ~o read a letter that the hen. Minister of Fisheries (Mr . J. ~~rgan) wrote to me on June 7th concerning a problem that is 1~ithin provi ncial jurisdiction . t-1R . SIMt-1S : Can you table the letter? MR . 1'/ARREN : Oh , yes I will table the letter , no problem .

And he says, 'This will acknowledqe- in fact, it is on behalf of the petition that was presented in the House . • And so he said, 'It seems to me that the Tornuat Co -operative sh ould refer this matter to the Department of Indinn <lnd NOrt'lcrrl J\ffili rs fo r possible .1ssistilncc before 1·orn i nq Lo Ute I'I 'O V j nee . • Now, before coming to the Provi nce . so•m :.orL ~:rrmr~r; . ---------- Oh, oh ! MR . lvARREN : Mr . Speaker, let me say that here is a problem that is in the provincial jurisdiction and he sa id,' Refer it to the federal gover nment' .

Why refer a provincial m<ltter to the federal government? S0!1E HON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh! MR .:._~J~~!3EN : Mr. Speaker, you kno1~, it ic; amazino that a fello1" nas, for twenty minute s gotte n up ann tri en to let the llon . members on that side of the sous e knO'II that there are problem s in the fishery that they do not even realize . The hon. member from Grand Falls (Mr .L. Si mms), he docs nt)t know whnt n cotlfish looks like , so how can 'le understand <:~bout the cod fishery? MR . SI~lJ.tS : SOME HON . MEMB T:RS : MR . WARREN : It looks like the hon . member . Hear , hear! So , Mr.

Speaker , let us take anoth ~c member for example . MR . SIMMS : St. John • s East there,. a great fishing district . MR. I~ARREN : --- No , I am not going to take St. John 's East . \'1e wil l take the member from - ;II . 1 4

June 23 , 1982 Tape No . 1617 MJ - 2 SO~tc: HON . MEMBERS : Deer Lake . MR . G . \-JARREN : Deer Lake,yes .There you go . The hon . the Minister of Health (Mr . \-J . House) , for example, you know , he does not even know what a codfish looks like . ?-lr . Speaker, in concludinlJ I want to agree with the Min:i.c;ter of Fisheries (Mr . J. Morgan) on one thin~ - Mr . Speaker ,: ha ve about two minutes - and that is our fish leav ing the Province in block form . I believe it is ridiculou s, it should never be . But let us take that a little further .

Look uL wh.,t is h;1ppcnin<t to Lhc ch:• •· ;111tl th• · salmon on the Labr ador Coa st. As soon as the fisherman qet it,all the people do with it up there is gut it open and take the insides out . ~ ~1 «;

June 23, 1982 Tape No . 1618 MR . loJl\RREN : That is all they do with it and it is brought out here. And they smoke about 1 per cent of what they catch . That is all that is smoked, about one per cent of it . MIL SPT::l\!<ER (McNicholas) : elapsed . MR. I~ARREN : SOME HON . MR~ERS : MR . SPE:l\KER : and Man power . MR . DINN : Order, please ! The hon . member's time has One minu ·tr• to clue up? No, no . The hon . Minister of Labour Thank you, Mr. Speaker . First of all - so - 1 MR . SPEAKER : member for Fogo . ~IR . 'l'Ur.K : A point of order , Hr. Speaker . A point of order , the hon .

I would like to ask the Minister of Culture , Recreation and Youth (Mr. . Simmr.) to go back to his own side, because I cannot sit at the sa me desk with him . MR . SIMMS : There is no point of order there , Hr . Speaker . SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. DINN : me say that if anyone - MR. NEARY : on the point of order? MR . SPEAKER : order . MR . DINN : Oh, oh . Mr . Speaker , fir st of all, le t Is Your Ho nour going to rule I rule there is no point of t-lr . Speaker, first of all , I h<wc to make it qui tc clcllr thllt I cnnnot support the resolution as proposed by the hon . member for Fogo (Mr .

Tulkl for obvious reasons . And the hon . member for Fogo \-IOuld not be serious if ,ir. deed,he read a lit tle, For ex am ple , if :l '· 1 ~

June 23, 1982 Tape 1618 JC - 2 MR . DINN : he read the report that the Fisheries Department presented to the Kirby Task Force, if he read the different publications that were put out by the Department of Fisheries provincially, the hon . member would not be serious about putting a resolution of this sort before this House of Asse .mbly.

I would like to look at this resolution and discuss it with respect to employment, because it is one of grave concern to me as ~1inister of Labour and Manpower 1 and readinq the unemployment statistics in Newfoundland that have been getting a little bit worse in the past year or so r and attack it from the point of view of several aspects that han . members have brought up with respect to marketinq, with respect to h0\11 we are looking at the fishery, the processing sector, the catching sector and so on .

And ju~t to look at the marketing side of it, I wonder aloud why we are having some difficulties in marketing our fish . Mr. Speaker, I would like to look at it from that point of view 3~17

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1619 IB-1 MR. DINN: and also from the point of view of why we are doing what we are doing. Last year, as an example - and the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) pointed this out just recently,and I believe the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) who led off the debate mentioned it last week 1 basically the giveaway of our raw resource to foreigners when there is absolutely, in my opinion,no need of it. And the hon. member for StePhenville went through it last week,where he found out anc "_ ~~ informed the House that we gave away, in cod fish last year, 76,275 metric tons of fish.

Now, Mr. Speaker, to me that is 1,370-odd man years of work and that is a lot of jobs in Newfoundland. I think,if you just look at the inshore sector 1 you can multiply that by three.Because the season for the inshore is so short, you know, you are talking about almost 4,000 jobs and that,to me,is a very serious situation. Redfish, we gave away 56,600 metric tons: ~launder, 10,560 metric tons; Halibut, 16,000 metric tons. In total,just in catch capability,you are talking about 2,869 approximate man years of employment. You can add into that the processinq of it and so on.

That,to me, is a very serious situation and it then makes me think, why are we havinq difficulty then in selling? Are we sellinq any fish to the Russians? Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not see why we would sell fish to the Russians if they are being given free, the raw resource. The same way with the Japanese with the squid and so on. We had our fishermen go out last year to catch squid and a lot of it was rejected because the main market for our squid is the Japanese market and they were given the raw resource, I think the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) outlined something like 17,000 metric tons of fish. 3 4 1 A

June 23, 1982 Tape No . 1619 IB-2 MR . DlNN: Mr . Speaker, iust in this past weekend we h~ve heard fishermen complain about not being able tosell their fish to the plants . I think if we look at that seriously and not just run off at the mouth, and think about what the problem is - a lot of the fish was small, could not be processed by our plantsprofitably and,of course , that is what plants are in business for , to make a profit . One has to wonder why so many small fish . I Mean, is it because the mesh size in the trap is too small now? And the same way, of course , when you get 3L1Q

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1620 PS - l MR. DINN: the gillnet fishery is the mesh size Loo small o.nd thus we arc catchin<J this small fish that in a few years time would be usable and capable of being sold and processed by the plants at a profit and, therefore, we would not have the problem? So there are many more problems with the fishery than just making a blanket statement that, for example, the provincial government is at fault, the federal government is at fault or the processors are at fault or the fishermen are at fault.

It seems to me that there are so many problems in the fishery - I mean, it is not just one of marketing, although that is a problem - there are so many problems in the fishery that I think if one looked at just the proposal set forward to the Kirby 'I'ask Force by the provincial government there is a lot of material in there that makes a lot of sense. And I recommend that to all hon. members and I think they would get a deeper appreciation of the fishery. Now, my knowledge of the fishery is not that great, bit I have fished.

I fished out of the Battery, and went out several Summers with people down there, the Piercey family and so on. So I did some fishing. But I am not in any way, shape or form an expert on the fishery, although I know something about the inshore fishery. Mr. Speaker, when you give away a raw resource it affects everything. The fact that if you can get something for nothing, you are not going to buy it, so you are not going to buy fish MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: Like the Baie Verts mines, for instance.

The Baie Verts mine, the hon. member brings up, is a very serious situation and he should not jus~ throw comments across the House as is his wont to do, throw wild comments across the House. 'l'hc I3aie Verte mine has a very distinct possibility of being successful if certain things happen, and, Mr. Speaker, there will yet another time and another place 3t.?n

June 23, 1982 '!'ape No . J6 20 PS - 2 MR. DINN : for me to get into the Baie Verts mine . There are a lot of problems there, not just one or two little problems . So, Mr . Speaker, - MR . NEARY : There were none on Bell Island at the time that is what - MR . DINN: There was no contract for Bell Island . l'lc still have not been able to find a contract for Bell Island, Mr . Speaker . The hon . member is interrupting, he should spend a little more time in Panama, where is his wont to go . MR. NEARY: or down with my hand out to the Telephone Company . MR. D!NN: Mr .

Speaker, 1 do not huvc to go with my hand out to anyone . I never genuflected to anyone in my life, and certainly not to the bon . member . The hon . member would do well to read the t~fflin report; it is a report in ho w a minister should not operate when he is in office . And , Mr . Speaker, before I became a minister I became very well acquainted with the Mifflin report so that when I became a minister or government { would noL c.Jo like Lhc hun . member ultl . A complete disgrace , Mr . Speaker . The hon . member was a complete disgrace .

The only time he had an opportunity to do anything for the people of this Province, he blew it when he was Minister of Social Services . And , Mr . Speaker , they wrote a report on the hon . gentleman from which I, every once in n while , take a few pages and read , how the minister abused his office when he was :H? ·;

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1621 IB-1 MR. DINN: a minister of government, Mr. Speaker. And that is not idle gossip or anything like that 1 Mr. Speaker, that was a report done by a very good Newfoundlander, the Mifflin Report. MR. NEARY: Down with your hand out. MR. DINN: The han. member should be quiet or go down to Panama with his friend, Mr. Doyle. The han. member is interrupting and breaking the rules of the House. We are speaking today,Mr. Speaker, on the fishery, a very important resource and if the han. member was concerned at all he would allow other people to speak and stay there in silence. But, Mr.

Speaker, he has been in the llouse, he is one of the longest sitting members of the House and obviously does not want to observe the rules of the House. Mr. Sp .eaker, that member, above all members in this House,should be the last to interrupt people, the last to speak in this House or interrupt people or talk about different ministers of the Crown, Mr. Speaker, because there was a report done on the hon. gentleman that indicated the hon. gentleman was a disgrace when he was in office. Now, Mr. Speaker, getting back to the fishery, a very important - MR. NEARY: Both salaries. MR.

DINN: Go down and see your friend Mr. Doyle. A very important resolution is before the House today. There are things in the resolution that one would look at and have to agree with. The

preamble, for example, you know, is just not accurate, just not proper, just not right, that the provincial government does not have a policy on the fishery. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is again interrupting in the debate. He has not got the guts to go outside and say what he is saying in the House because, 3&I.:,J

June 23, 1982 Tape No. 1621 IB-2 MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I would have him in irons where he should have been about ten years ago. MR. NEARY: Do you want to fight now? Are you in a fighting mood ? MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman wants that, I mean, outside anytime at all. MR. SPEAKER (AYUIARD): Order, please! Order! MR. NEARY: I would not waste my time. MR. DINN: It would not take much. So, Mr. Speaker, we have a resolution by the hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) and it is an important resolution because it talks about the fishery. But, Mr. Speaker, there are inaccuracies obviously in the

preamble, "WHEREAS there is no coherent or cohesive policy being pursued by the present provincial government". Obviously, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman read anything at all, if he read anything about the fishery that is put out by the provincial Department of Fisheries the hon. gentleman would know that that statement is just totally inaccurate, incorrect and he should not even have the courage to brinq it into the House. Now, Mr. Speaker, hon. gentlemen today in Question Period asked the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), does he agree, for example, with over-the-side sales. Well, Mr.

Speaker, there may be times when over-the- side sales are good things. If processing plants canriot handle fish in this Province,then maybe we can do some over-the-side sales. But, Mr. Speaker, I recall several instances of over-the-sid