ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 68A - 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 16 MAY, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNE Y, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EV ANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verend rye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emer son Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kir kfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Stur geon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Nor bert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkir k Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Bu rrows Rossmer e lnkster For t Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MA NITOBA Monday, 16 May, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MIR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Commi ttees . MINIST ERIAL STATEMENTS AND TA BLING OF REPORT S MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKUNG: Mr. Speaker, the Water Resourc es Branch Report on spring runofl prospects as of May 16 , 1983.

The Manitoba Water Resou rces Branch report s that while signi ficant runo ff is expected from last week's snowstorm in western Manitoba, overbank flows are not expected on streams in the area. Rivers and creeks flowing off the Riding, Duck and Porcupine Mountains will experienc e peak flows from the snowmelt ru noff late this week. These peaks will be muc h lower than those experienc ed during April. The Branch cautions that the situation could become serious ii significant additional precipitation were to fall in western Manitoba this week.

The situation will be monitored closely and further reports will be issued as required. The storm of May 12 th and 13t h produc ed 25 to 40 millimetres of precipitation in areas of western Manitoba from the United St ates boundary up to Mafeking. Adjoining areas of Saskat chwewan and North Dakota received similar amounts. Most of the precipit ation was in the form of snow. The snow is expected to melt gradually this week.

The Water Resourc es Branch reports that while streams are expected to remain within their banks, the additional runoff from the fresh snow will raise the water level of Dauphin Lake a furthur 0. 15 to 0.30 metres during the next few weeks. This will result in further flooding of low-lying areas surrounding the lake. The additional snowmelt runoff will also raise the water level of the Shellmout h Reservoir by a half meter or so. Unless there is above normal precipit ation the next two weeks, it will not be necessary to increase the outflow from the Reservoir .

The Branch furt her report s that last week's snowstorm prod uc ed heavy prec ipitation over the Souris River Watershed. This will result in a longer du ration of flooding along the Souris River in Manitoba. Wher eas flooding from the International Boundary to Hart ney was expected to cease in late May, it will now likely extend well into June. While river levels may rise somewhat, peak stages will remain well below those of April.

The Water Resourc es Branch further advises that heavy precipit ation during May in Northern Manitoba has signific antly increased the flood potential of the Nelson River and the lower Churchill River. Spring runoff has barely beg un in these watersheds. Localized flooding problems are likely on the Nelson and lower Churchill Rivers and their tri butaries later this month. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling or Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . INTRODUCTION OF BIL LS HON. J. PLOHMAN introduc ed Bill No. 78,

An Act to amend The Manitoba Telephone Act. INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before Oral Questions may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery. We have 63 students of Grades 9 to 13 of the Bawating Collegiate of Sault Ste. Marie, Ont ario, who are here are gu ests of the Windsor Park Collegiate. They are under the dir ection of Mr. Elliot and Mr. Daniel. Windsor Park Collegiate is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Radisson. There are 80 students of Grade 9 standing from the Spring Valley School under the dir ection of Mr. Riches.

The school is in the constituency of the Honour able Member for Kirkfield Park. There are 26 student s of Grade 5 from the Cranberry Portage Elementary School under the dir ection of Mr. Neufeld. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Housing. On behalf of all of the members I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS National Research Institute - location MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs.

In view of the fact that there was an extensive study done during 1980 by the Manitoba Research Council and the National Research Council that rec ommended in September of 1980 that the task force rec ommends the establishment of a National Research Institute in Winnipeg to conduct applied research, development and manufacturing science and produ ction technology on a national scc:le, and in view of the fact that the National Research Council recommended to the Federal Minister that it go in Winnipeg at that time; also in view of the fact that the report and study recommends the institute be located in central Winnipeg, now that the Federal Minister has announced the National Research Centre to be built in Winnipeg after extensive study done by the Manitoba Research Counc il and the previous provincial government under the auspices of the previous provincial government, can the Minister of Urban Affairs tell us whether the government has 2754

Monday, 16 May, 1983 decided or have they made any decision on their recommendation as to where the institute should be located in Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. We're pleased that the Federal Government has made the long-awaited announcement on the location of the facility in the Province of Manitoba; in particu lar, in the City of Winnipeg, and we are engaged in ongoing discussions with the Federal Government and it is our suggestion, our proposal, that the facility be located in the downtown inner-city area of the City of Winnipeg .

MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I'm certainly happy that it's going to be where this report, which was done in 1980, has reco mmended it. Development north of Portage Avenue Mr . Speaker , I would like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs what group of private industry people, business people and residents of the downtown area will be involved in the decision-making on the upgrading of the north- of-Portage project, which they are presently going to work on. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: There has been ongoing discussions with residents, resident organizations, in the north Portage area as late as last week, and I met with the representative of the formal organization that has been formed of residents and tenants in the north Portage area, and I would anticipate further discussion with them.

I am also pleased to repor t that there is ongoing discussion with mem bers of the business community with respect to the further activity in the downtown area, and I will be meeting later tonight, as a matter of fact, with six or seven of the major land developers in the City of Winnipeg, who wanted to meet and discuss the private sector involvement in the north Portage de velopment. So th at pro cess is conti nuing, Mr. Speaker, and I would anticipate that it will continue until such time as we actually see projects under way. MR. F. JOHNSTON: A further que stion to the Minister , Mr.

Speaker , can the Minister assure the House that there will be research and extensive studies done as to the effect of any decisions that are made by the City of Winnipeg regard ing this project, and can the Minister also assure this House that there will be more studies and research available to him to make decisions before he makes the decisions as he did with the first proposal that came forward from Mr . Axworthy? There are obviously no statistics or studies to justify that project whatsoever . Will there be studies and statistics available before decisions are made? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Speaker, I can indicate that there will be cert ainly a lot of further study done with respect to the kind of developments that are being reviewed for the north Portage area . The three levels of government have comm itted the mselves to a task force that has started meeting and is going to meet on a continual and regular basis until such time as we are able to finalize the proposals for development of the north Portage area. But I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, those studies are not going to drag on, because it seems to me that it's obvious to anyone who lives and works, or goes through the City of Winnipeg to see that the City of Winnipeg, in particular the downtown area, is in somewhat devastated state. If we allow for present trends to continue as they have for the last couple of decades in the City of Winnipeg, Mr. Speaker, we're going to have a city in Winnipeg that's going to resemble a doughnut where we are going to see the downtown area a desolate and unoccupied space and having all the commercial, residential and industrial activity on the peripheral.

I don't think that any Manitobans, any residents in the City of Winnipeg want to see that. So while we are going to review the projects in detail, use the expertise that's available from all levels of government and the private sector, Mr. Speaker, it's not our intention to have this kind of project bogged down in studies for any great length of time, because I think it's important that we do have focused attention in the downtown area sooner rather than later. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, just one further question, the Minister has mentioned that there will be the formation of a steer ing com mit tee to make de cisions. He did say tha t they would be havi ng discussions with developers in private industr y. Will somebody from th at group be on the ste ering comm ittee? Also, Mr. Speaker, will there be people from the City of Winnipeg on that comm ittee so that the commis sioners will not have to write a report in two weeks to let the Minister know what is wrong with it and what isn't wrong with it? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

It might make things if the member is ask ing questions, and he asked a similar question last week, that if he would listen to the answer, because as I indicated to him in questionings last week, there is a task force th at is being es tablis hed with two rep resentatives from each level of government, which do es include the City of Winnipeg naming two representatives to that task force to review the planned projects and to do the necessary research and study that the member talked about.

The task force has not set its specific terms of reference down, but I'm sure they will include consultation and discussion with a wide variety of people in the City of Winnipeg including developers from the private sector, so I can assure the member that process will take place and will include all the concerns that he has mentioned. Saskeram - grazing and forage leases MR. SPEAKER: the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I dir ect this question to the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. Mr.

Speaker, it's the time of the year that livestock farmers and ranchers are turning their cattle out to pasture. I'm aware that the Minister 2755

Monday, 16 May, 1983 ________________ _:_;_ __ -"-- ----·---- ---·---·--·�·- has a request from The Pas area farmers and livestock raisers to use some 60,000 acres of the Saskeram area for forage and grazing purposes. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the season is upon us, my question to the Minister is, is it his department's intention to issue grazing and forage leases on the Saskeram? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, for many years it has been policy to allow a continuance of agricultural leases that exist on the far side of the Carrot River.

There are longsta nding arrangements, and people continue to graze livestock on the far side of the river, and that portion of the land base is not included in the existing Saskeram Wildlife Management Area. It is a matter of concern on the part of farmers in Northern Manitoba to expand their agricultural base; that's well understood. It's also a matter of concern from the point of view of those who are anxious about the continued propagation of wildl ife that the Saskeram Wildl ife Management Area continue in existence. That longstanding issue has been discussed on many occasions.

My staff and I have had consultations with all interest groups in The Pas on two occasions, also in my offi ce, and we have been considering the representat ions of all those groups and I can advise you, Mr. Speaker, that a decision will be made in respect to that before the conclusion of the existing Ducks Unlimited lease which expires on July 1s t. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I'm aware of what the longstanding practic e up there has been, but I'm specifically asking for the reque st that he has for the use of an additional 24,282 hectares or some 60,000 acres, that is in addition to the current leases of the Saskeram to be used for forage and grazing purposes. Is the Minister giving that request from The Pas area farmers serious considera tion? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated, The Pas Farmers Association have made clear their desires to see a larger amount of land available for agriculture, including an additional acreage in what is now the Saskeram Wildl ife Area. That requ est is und er considera tion, as is all of the requests of others who are interested in the Saskeram area. A decision will be made in due course and an announcement will be made then. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , the agreement expires with Ducks Unlimited on July 1s t. I suspect, Mr. Speaker, we'll still be in this Chamber on July 1s t.

Is it the Minister's intention to renew the current agreement with Ducks Unlimited with respec t to the Saskeram? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, while a decision has not been made in respec t to renewal, of course that is one of the concerns that government has, to confirm arrangements in respect to any renewal, and of course that decision will be announced in due course. Jobs fund - staffing MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the First Minister .

Can the First Minister advise the Ho use ho w many new staff have been hir ed to administer the Jobs Fund? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, there have been staff that have been hired to administer the Jobs Fund. They have been working for some number of weeks. I would have to take the question as notice in order to obtain the precise number for the honourable member. MR. B. RANSOM: Would the First Minister also advise the House how many people have been seconded to assist in the administration of the Jobs Fund? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , I would take that question as one of notice as well. loan Guarantee Program - crop insurance MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is for the Minister of Agric ulture. Can the Minister indic ate whether current crop insuranc e coverage holders, who own incorporated farms, will be refused crop insur ance coverage either this year or next year by deciding not to sign the requested personal gu arantee form? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Agric ulture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, last week I reported on that matter, I believe, in the question that was raised by the honourable mem ber, indicating that this practic e has been in place for approximately four years. The question that he raises is one that I will have to specifically take as notice to find out whether such refusals by the corporation have actually taken place. I'm not aware of that, but I will take the question as notice and report back to the honourable member and will want to review that practice that he has raised. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I thank the Minister for that answer and I would appreciate if he would indicate not only the number of refusals, but indeed whether it is the intention of the Manitoba Crop Insuranc e Corporation to refuse coverage next year, should an incorpor ated farm client decide not to sign the personal guara ntee. I have a second qu estion for the Minister of Agri culture. Could he indicate how many approvals there are to date under the $10 0 million Loan Gu arantee Program and how many approvals have been refused by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation to date? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker , the question relating to crop insurance that I've taken as notice, the 2756

Monday, 16 May, 1983 honourable memb er should be aware that the crop insurance contract remains in place unless there is a cancellation by either party, and I will che ck, as I've indicated, the situ ation re gard ing his qu estion of cancellations because of the corporate nature. With respe ct to the Loan Gu arantee Program, as of May 11 th, the re port that I've had, the re were 15 2 applications received, totalling $9.7 million, approvals of 11 6 for $7.1 million, 10 were declined for $590,000 and 26 were in process as of May 11 th. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Co uld the Ministe r pro vide information as to how many farmers in the Province of Manitoba have asked the assistance of the Credit Advisory Committee that the Minister has set up and having provided that information, could the Minister indicate whether any of those farmers, deciding they wish to use the mediation proce ss available through that comm ittee, how many of those decisions have been made by the comm ittee? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speak er, I will take that qu estion as notice so I can get the information.

As of last week, I had no further reports from the staff that I had given the honourable memb ers earli er, indicating that there were approximately six, I believe, inquirie s that were made, and whether they have been taken to the revie w panels, I will have to check that and provide the information for my honourable friend. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speak er, I have a qu estion for the Chairman of the Provincial Land Use Committ ee.

Could the chairman of the committe e indicate whether the Pr ovi ncial Land Use Comm itte e is currently contemplating changes in provincial land-use policy No. 10, whereby mutual use of wildlife and agricu ltural land, the policy will be changed, thereby de-emphasizing agricu ltural use of multi-use lands? A MEMBER: Oh, oh. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member sh ould be aware that the policie s that were reco mmended in 19 75, which were then approved by his go vernm ent, we re revi ewed by the new administration and have been approved in their entirety. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I take it from that answer the n that the Minister is saying there are no changes being contemplated to provincial land-use policy No. 10? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speak er, at this point in time there are no intentions to change any of the land-use policies. Should there be an occasion whereby certain land-use policies should be reviewed from time to time, that will occur. But at the present time , there are no intended changes to be made to the land-use policies. Broiler Board - Manitoba Na tural Products Marketing Council MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr.

Speak er. Friday last, the Minister of Co-operative s took as notice for the Minister of Agriculture a certain set of qu estions, and I'm wondering if I can pose the same qu estions or whether the Minister wants to respond at this time. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Sp eak er, the Ministe r of Consumer and Corporate Affairs took qu estions as notice on my behalf in my absence last week concerning the Natural Produ cts Marketing Council's consideration of a req uest by the Manitoba Broiler Board to lower the ex emption from 1, 000 to 200 broile rs.

The honourable membe r should be aware that there is a concern nationally as a result of unregulated produ ct. Primaril y, Manitoba and the western provinces have been faced with the movement of unregu lated produ ct from the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. Manitoba, along with New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Saskatchewan, are the only provinces in the national agreement that do have exemptions. And over the last number of years, there has been in Manitoba somewhat an increase in the numbe r of produ cers who have been producing unregulated produ ct.

Albeit, the regulated produ ct is a very small portion of the total national qu ota, which I belie ve is some whe re in the neigh bourhood of 34 million pounds for Manitoba. As I understand it, the marketing board's recommendation to council is that these produ cers who are and have been produ cing unre gulated prod uct be issued quotas and be licensed so that their produ ction rate s be protected. However, this would of course limit the entry of new produ cers into the industry over and above the 200-unit limit as has been req uested by the board. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speak er, I'm wondering if the Minister can indicate whether the governme nt would support a decision that would come down from the Natural Produ cts Marketing Council on that basis, because it seems to me that it's the basic right of individuals on the farm to supplement their incomes, if you believe in the family farm concept. I'm wondering whether, inde-Jd, the Governm ent of the Day is prepared to withdraw that right to any individual who wants to move in and raise broile rs under 1, 000? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that any provincial agreement, and in this case it was the Conservative administration that saw fit to enter the national agreement, which does impose along with it certain conditions in terms of the national relationship, and there are four provinces now only that do have an exemption. All the other provinces who are within the national agr eem ent have no exempt ions, so tha t ostensibly the only kind of production that can be allowed on a farm is for domestic use within the family.

So that the only provinces that do have exemptions are New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Saskatch ewan and Manitoba. Whether or not we support - we are awaiting the recommendations from our council - but what I do want to ensure is that the produ ction rights of those produ cers who have been producing broilers for many years are protecte d and they be allowed to continue that practice. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I would like the Minister to dr aw out th at point. The forme r Tory 2757

Monday, 16 May, 1983 administration in their wisdom decided there shou ld be that basic right of 1,000 available to everybody, and the fact that other pr ovinces aren't doing it is not a defensible argument. So my qu estion is: What rationale has changed, bearing in mind that "large r" is more efficient today, why is all of a sudden "smalle r" needed to support the whole program, and what is the rationale for dropping from 1,000 to 200? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Spe ak er, firs t of all, the reco mmendations and decisions have not been made.

The honourable member should be aware. as I indicated earlier with resp ect to the national agreement, there is concern nationally within the agreement that there has been overproduction which has impacted on the price to produ cers who are in the national agreement. As a result of overprod uction, we know that we've had prod uct du mp ed on Manitoba and Saskat che wan marke ts, and there are provinces who are out of the agreement.

If one is to join a national agreement, which his administration saw fit to do so, there are certain res ponsibilities in which one has to maintain their share of th e bargain; and that is that the national agreement and di scus sions nationally are targ eting on overproduction of unregulated produ ct. MR. D. ORCHARD: You hate the little guy, that's all. Rentalsman's Office - work backlog MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. My qu estion is for the Honourable Minister of Housing.

What does the Minister propose to do as a result of a recent report that the Ombu dsman's office has had double the usual complaints with resp ect to the Rentalsman's office because of his department's inability to deal efficiently and effectively with the affairs under their jurisdiction? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing . HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speak er, that was an interesting side light to the real qu estion. Obviou sly, Mr. Speak er, while there has been an increase in complaints to the Ombu dsman's office, that goes beyond simply the Rentalsman's office.

There has been a 90 percent increase ge nerally. Clearly, the Rentalsman's office has been taxed thoroughly over the past numbe r of years. There has been approximately an 85 percent increase in the number of complaints that the Rentalsman's office has been recei ving. Mr. Speaker, I did meet with staff this fall to discuss the problems and the prospe cts for the Rentalsman's office and as a result of that meeting, I was able to add additional staff to the Rentaisman's office in the number of four officers and a couple of clerical staff to deal with the backlog.

The reasons for the tremend ous increase in the number of complaints going to the Rentalsman's office is, I think, self-e vident. As the economy tightene d up, clearly, individuals were not as willing to let a num ber of dollars escape from them. They went after the m by way of complaints throu gh the Rentalsman's office and to the Ombu dsman and, certain ly, we're cognizant of the problem.

We are confident with the new staffi ng at the Rentalsman's Olfice and with the iri:.reasing degree of expertise that the new membe rs are acquiring that they will be able to deal with the significant backlog and to be able to deal with the complaints as they're coming. The number of complaints going to the Ombudsman's office, numbering 20 thus far this year, while I think it is certainly a concern; it is not an overwhelming number. There are approximately 120,000 rental in the province.

If you work out 20 complaints over 120,000 units, I think that landlords and tenants have shown a remarkable degree of amiability and a re markable ability to overcome their problems in another fashion. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speak er, I asked the Minister what he is proposing to do about it, and he just attempts to rationalize the situation with a simplistic response. We could take an equally simplistic response and say th at the incre ase coincide d with the change of government. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister confirm that one of the reasons for the incre ased activity is because the Rentalsman's office now declines to answer simple qu estions from the public over the telephone and instead req uests that they formalize any qu estions or concerns so that a file can be opened and dealt with in a formal manner. In other words, they are soliciting complaints, which gives them a backlog and overload, and now they're not able to deal with the matters under their jurisdiction. HON. J. STORIE: Mr . Spe ak er, I object to the honourable member's premise.

I did not rationalize it; I indicated to the honourable membe r that I had met with the Rentalsman's staff and I took the proble m seriou sly. I indicated we had added additional staff. Those additional staff obviou sly require some period of adjustment and period of familiarizing the mselves with The Landlord and Tenant Act and how to deal with cases.

I'm convinced that those people are on stream, that they are building the experience that's needed to deal effect ively with the proble ms that they are fa cing; that as th ey are more capable of assum ing a full workload as the other more experienced officers had, that those problems will be dealt with. Certainly, we will be monitoring the situation and if additional staff is required, the n so be it. For the membe r's edification, the increasing number of complaints tha t are being experi enced by the Rentalsman's office did not coincide with the election of the new government.

If the member would care to confirm this with the Rentalsman's office , he will find that the incre ase in number of complaints was begun in early 1980 and, in fact, the years 1980-81 saw a 46 percent increase in the numbe r of complaints, and the years 1981-82 saw a 26 percent incre ase. So the member's premise was wrong on both fronts, and although I acknowledge that there continues to be a number of problems that the Rentalsman's office faces, we will be dealing with them on an ongoing basis. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, maybe the Minister would also like to take credit for the fact that in the first quarter of this year, the re's an 85 percent increase 2758

Monday, 16 May, 1983 over last year in the complaints to the Ombu dsman's office. So he can deal with that one; but what is he going to do about the matter which I brought to his attention and the matter that I brought to his Deputy's attention earlier this year of the Rentalsman's office clearly soliciting complaints; not dealing with simple qu estions over the telephone but saying, put it in writing and formalize it, otherwise we can't deal with it. They are contribu ting to their own workload problem, and what is he going to do about it? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speak er, certain ly, what the Member for Tuxedo is suggesting may have happened from time to time and, certain ly, when you are dealing with experience d officers, the y may wish to have something in writing because they don't have the degree of familiarity they should. Certainly, if there are ways to stre amline the procedure; if there are ways to provide offhand advice that in some way can prote ct the parties that are involved, the n we would look into it.

But clearly we are providing, in some instances, a very detailed response and to provide those kinds of answers off­ the-cuff is sometime s dangerous to the parties that are asking the qu estions. Payment of Wages Fund MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labo ur. HON. M. B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a couple of answers for the Member for Turtle Mountain who asked last week again about the payment out of the Payment of Wages Fund for a numbe r of young people who were due the monies in his constit uency.

I am pleased to share with him the information that those che qu es have been written and tomorrow will be forwarded, some of them, to Brandon, a few of them kept here in Winnipeg, all the young people contacted to come in and pick up their cheq ues and sign the necessary documents. So that information, I'm sure, that he will be happy to receive. The second item, just a few moments ago the member asked a qu estion about the Jobs Fund Unit, which is the name that - (Interjections) - I wonder if the membe rs want this information. I would be happy to just leave it as a qu estion taken for notice.

The Member for Turtle Mountain is listening, so I will continue. Obviou sly he is looking at his leadership over there as well, his leadership position I mean. The Jobs Fund Unit is made up of approximately ten people. These people, with one exception, all come from inside the govern ment. In other words, they were civil servants before who were sort of picke d from the long list of people who wished to be a part of this Unit. We had qu ite a few people who indicated a lot of eagern ess to be a part of this exciting prospe ct and project.

The Senior Manage r forme rly was with the Department of Education and through the TAP Program came to the Jobs Fund. I think that I covered that rather extensively during my Estimates, so I won't go into detail here. Two of the managers trans ferred from other departments to the Jobs Fund Unit. With the exception of the one short-term contract employee, who was hire d for a specific, specialized task, the balance of approximately six people come from within the Department of Employment Service s and were redeplo yed to this task.

This was made quite easy and possible during the reorganization of that department from Manpower to Employment Services. Highway repair re oil industry MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arth ur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I have a qu estion to the Minister of Hig hways relating to the highway system in Manitoba, particularly the oil industry or how it's related.

I, first of all, would ask the Minister of Hig hways if he would agree that the tremendou s mini-oil boom that has take n place in southwest Manitoba and the delivering of that oil to the pipeline drop at Cromer is contingent upon the fact that we need a good highway system to deliver that resource to the marke t? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Hig hways. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speak er, the member should be aware that we did take some initiatives in the area with resp ect to taking over some municipal roads into the provincial road system in order to accommodate the need for an upgrade d road system for the oil hauL Now that doesn't mean that is adequate at this point in time . The other point that should be taken account of, Mr. Speaker, is that there is some pipeline activity that is taking place which will alleviate the pressure on the road system once the pipelines are operative. An assessment has to be made of that before we decide how far we go with major road reconstru ction.

MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speak er, I am sure the Minister is not naive enough to appreciate the fact that while you're waiting on all this pipeline work and all the activity it would take to make a decision by the investors in that quantities of oil and the fact that easements of rights -of-way across private land holdings would be a necessity, is the Minister aware that in view of the fact that his department and his government has cut some $10 million from the Highways Branch, has remove d some of those funds from the southwest area of the province, that there are now some of the highways, specifically 256, are now impassable, because of the heavy weights of oil trucks and the total overload ing of these highways with the amount of resource that is being put over those hig hways?

Would he, today, check on Hig hway 256 particularly between No. 2 Hig hway and Crom er, as I was there yesterday and have had pictures taken, and have those bad spots repaire d so that the oil industry couid use that road as it is the shorte st route, as well for the local residents for school buses, for people who want to seed their farms and to haul grain on those roads, that he do put a priority on that area and spend some money to upgrade the road that is there, Mr.

Speak er, and not shu t off the valuable flow of income that the Minister of Finance is so capably and ready to take to spend in other areas of this pr ovince? Will he upgrade th at road, Mr. Speaker? 2759

Monday, 16 May, 1983 SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Orde r ple ase. Orde r please. The Honourable Minister of High ways. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speak er, there is no doubt that at this time of the year there are many roads that are not in good condition because of the nature of the tha wing proce ss and what it doe s to the grad es throughou t the province, and the fact that hauling any amount of tonnage over these roads at this time of the year is indeed very agg ravating to the condition of the highway.

I believe that our distri ct offices are aware of the proble m that the membe r is alluding to and that regular maintenance is always the re, Mr. Speak er. I don't believe we have shor t-circuited the maintenance program. To the extent that there is any reconstru ction required, that is something that will have to be looked at for the future, Mr. Speak er. MR. J. DOWNEY: In view of the fact, Mr.

Speak er, that a large numbe r of provincial income or a large portion of provinci al income is now coming out of the oil fields and in view of the fact that the road system will not help accommodate that, will the Minister of High ways resubmi t to his Treasury Board and his Treasury Bench a req uest for the $10 million that was actually cut out of his funds from last year and put it where it will do the only bright spot on the economy any good? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speak er, the membe rs opposite, of course, must recall that only 10 days or so ago we did go throu gh the Estimates of the Department of Highways and have had ample time at that time to discuss these issues. I don't believe much has changed since that time. Sherritt Gordon Mines - NEED Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I have a qu estion for the Minister of Energy and Mines.

Could the Mi nister tell us whether he has received a reply to his application under the NEED Program from She rri tt Gordon for employm ent assistance at the new Agassiz gold mine and, if he has, what his response will be? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr . Sp eak er, we di d have discussions with Sherri tt Gordon. We indicated that we were interested in the furthe r development of Lynn Lake. We indicated that our preference was to look at the joint activity with them. They are considering that.

We also ind icate d th at we would consi der a re vise d appli cation from them with re spect to the NEED Program and that we would consider it favourably if it met the cri teri a because the first one didn't meet the cri teria .

That substantially-re vised application from She rri tt Gordon Mines regarding the Agassiz Mine has been received; we've looked at it from the departmental perspe ctive; it meets the cri teria from the provincial pe rsp ecti ve and we'll be re comme ndi ng to the committee, the Federal-P rovincial Joint Committee that the province support this and I would assume then the Job Funds money will be allocated to the NEED Program to ensure that this particular program is underway. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Thank you.

I have a supplem entary qu estion to Minister of Energy and Mines. Even if Agassiz Gold Mine does reopen it'll only provide jobs for about one-third of the people who will be laid off when Fox Lake Mine closes. I wonder if the Mi nister can tell us what other activities he may have in mind for the future of the Lynn Lake area? HON. W.

PARASIUK: Yesterda y, the Minister of Northern Affairs, and the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and myself met with repre sentatives from the Lynn Lake council, and other commu nity repre sentatives where we ou tline d a ve ry large program th at is be ing undertaken by the Province of Manitoba to try and look at the medium-term problems facing Lynn Lake when the Fox Lake Mine runs out.

We indicated to them that we have undertaken a thr ee-year program of assist ance throu gh the Community Mining Reserve Fund which has helped the communi ty weather thi s particular storm that they've had to face over the course of the last two years. We've indicated that we've changed the priorities within the department to reallocate geophysical work to the Lynn Lake area. We also have reallocated funding throu gh MMR so that we could undertake a more concerted effort, Mr.

Speaker, with a number of private compan ies in the are a for joint explorati on and development because only one-third of the people employed at Sherri tt Gordon would, in fact, be dealt with by the Agassiz development if it took place, and there are many ifs facing that. We are at the final stages of negotiating a $1 million joint effort between the Federal Government and the Pro vincial Government for increased activity on both our parts in that area. So, Mr .

Sp eak er, we've indicated to the local communi ty a very broad deep approach on the part of the government to try and deal with those particular problems facing the community of Lynn Lake. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Lead er. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to He r Majesty.

MOTION presente d and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the 2760

Monday, 16 May, 1983 Su pply to be grante d to He r Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health and the Honourab le Member for Bu rrows in the Chair for the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ECONOMIC DEVELO PMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, C. SANTOS: We are now in Item No. 1. (e)( 1) Manitoba Horse Racing Commission. The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, when we closed off last Thursday evening I was discussing with the Minister what appeare d to be an overpayment of remune ration to the Horse Racing Commission. I want to make it very clear that there is no accus ation being made on this side ot the House that somebody has gone away with any money. I'd like that to be made very clear. But the fact of the matter remains that in November or December of last year, the existing commission paid themse lves for a full year, and they had only started to work on April 31, 19 82.

The Minister explains that's the time they started so they paid themse lves for a full year, and the Auditor confirms that's what happened. The overpayment is the three months of remuneration to the commission, which is basically a prepayment on the commission's remu neration because the calendar year of the Horse Racing Commission is December 31s t, 19 82 or the calendar year. The Minister says it's kind of awkward, that it doesn't coincide with the province's calendar year. I don't think that really holds water because the commission could be changed at any time.

It just happened that it was changed in March, somebody could resign during the year, and there could be a decision made to change the commission at any time . It's at the will of the Li eutenant-Governor in Council. The Minister also said that the Order-in-Council calls for a yearly remunera tion. I don't know whether the Minister has che cked with the Auditor's Office, but I think she would find if she did, the fact that there is a yearly remune ration brought down by Order -in­ Council, there is nothing to say that commissione rs cannot be paid on a monthly basis.

As a matter of fact, when I was the Minister in charge of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corpora tion, the membe rs of the corporation or the board made the decision to pay themse lves on a monthly basis. I would like to suggest that shouldn't be done, because at the present time if we get to next Decemb er, then the paid commissioners then pay themse lves for a year, we go onto another year where they are prepaid, and we won't be getting the remuneration of the commissioners into the calendar year of the Manitoba Racing Commission.

I don't personally think the commissioner shou ld have taken it on himself, the chief commissione r, to pay them selves or approve the paying of himself and the other commissione rs ahead of time or prepaying them without permission or some sort of authority from the Minister's office, and I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, 2761 that I hope the Minister during the past couple of days has conside red this situ ation and made the re com me ndation to the comm ission to ge t the ir renumeration onto the same calendar year as the Horse Racing Commission. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M.

SMITH: As the member has pointed out, it is the Act that states the level of honorariu m and does not designate when it is to be paid, there fore, it is within the rights of the commission to determine when. They chose to go two-thirds of the year without any ho norariu m and the n to take a lu mp sum and presumably go the next third of the year without any. I agree it would be more convenient for all of us if the calendar year of the Ho rse Racing Comm ission coincided with the fiscal year of the government. In fact, we are moving to do that.

It would also be more convenient if we had a common approach to remuneration which presumably would go on a per-meeting basis rather than a mixture of that and honoraria. Honoraria, as I have experienced them in some areas of the voluntary sector, it's a grant in lieu of out-of-pocket expenses, in some cases to enable people to take

part in the activities, and it's often a Jump sum prepaid. At least, that was my experience with it in a voluntary organization where I reme mber receiving the qu eenly sum of $1 00 a year. I do think it would be easier for all concerned when we get the standardization accounting, and I have noted all the suggestions from the membe r.

Ju st for clarifica tion, the commission was appointed March 23rd, 19 82, and the same commission was in place until the one resignation April 13, 19 83, which was, in fact, over the year, although I do accept the possibility of some shortening of that term and some awkwardness that could come if there had been a prepaid honoraria. I suppose there could be a rebate situation, hut I do note the fact that it's probably not as convenient as the other way around. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister seems to still have the opinion that the Racing Commission cannot pay th emselve s on a monthly basis.

As I mentioned, the provincial auditor would prefer, whether the Orde r in Council says 7,000 for the Chie f Comm issioner and 4,000 for the commissione rs, does not stop the m from deciding to take their honorariu m on a monthly basis. I would like to suggest that they start th at, and the n we don't have any proble m whatsoever with the calendar year and we don't have any proble m whatsoever with the situation if somebody happens to resign and they have been prepaid, or if the government decides to change somebody.

I wonder if the Minister is - I'm saying that it is possible and it is desirable that they pay themse lves monthly or they do not prepay themse lves at any time . HON. M. SMITH: I have already said that I would undertake to revie w it, but there may be a different pattern of remuneration that's under consideration to get more standard decision across the board. But I have noted the points raised by the member and will certainly consider them.

Monday, 16 May, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: The Membe r for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to pose a series of questions to the Minister regard ing the sharing of revenues from some of the exotic betting and some of the events that transpire d to the change in ownership of the track over the last year-and-a-half. I am wondering if the Minister can tell me what agreement was struck, verbal or written, as to the sharing of some of those proceeds, some of the exotic betting proceeds as regards the Standardbre d bre eders and the Thorou ghbre d breeders. HON. M.

SMITH: The total was $584.3 thou sand, that's $584,300, of which $275,000 went into the Emerge ncy Fund; $1 00,000 into the HBPA purse overpayment; $38,000 into the Sire Stake s Program; $1 07,5 00 into the Br eed er's incentive s; $46,700 into CTHS Administration grant; and $17.1 thousand undistributed. MR. C. MANNESS: Not really understanding what all those classe s are, I still pose the question: Was there a ve rbal agre ement othe r than what was finally determ ined as far as division of the $584,000? Was there a verbal agreement in existence that was different than the breakout that was ultimate ly achieved?

HON. M. SMITH: The amount in advance was not known and there was an agreement with the variou s

partie s on the proportionality so that the sligh t difference s might be based on the numbe r of races where the various groups were involved, but I can undertake to get a report in gre ater detail on how that agreement was arrived at and how it worked out. MR. C. MANNESS: I don't really have to know that. I suppose I would like to know thou gh who has the authority to, first of all, reach a decision as to the sharing of these proceeds, and seco ndly, who has the right to vary them after the fact? HON. M. SMITH: The commission has that authority with the approval of the Minister.

Perhaps, if I could draw your attention to Page 2 in the Annual Report, there is a description of the process followed. In March, 19 82, the government amended The Pari­ Mutuel Tax Act to provide for an additional levy equal to 5 percent of the monies wagered on three or more hor se-feature pools, sometime s called the 5 percent surtax on exotic wagering. It was rec omme nded by the horse racing industry review that was commissione d by the previous government in 19 80, called the Industry Review Stu dy. It was intended to addre ss the need for incre ased purse levels and enhance programs for the reading sector.

The commission met with the five groups which constitute the racing industry in Manitoba namely, the Th or ou ghbre d ho rse m en and bree de rs, the Stan dardbre d ho rseme n and bree de rs, and the operator of Assiniboia Downs - numerous times during April of 19 82 with a view to reaching a consensus on the allocation of the proceeds of the surtax.

A unanimou s agre ement was re ach ed and the commission reco mme nded to the government that the proceeds be divide d equally between the horsemen and the bre eders for a purse and breeder support, with a portion of the funds so divided being used for certain capital impr ovements to the backstretch area. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, I thank the Minister for reading that to me. I had read that some two or three weeks ago, and I'm glad she brought it back to my recall.

I'm wondering then, looking forward as to whether a decision has been made, going into the new track here, as to what the split will be under the proceeds of this surtax. HON. M. SMITH: The same deal has been worked out as last year, except that the horsemen have obligations respecting the emergency fund payment and purse overpayment. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, can the Minister be a little bit more definitive? I think there was a formula laid down; at least there was one that was contemplated going into the forme r year, but because of the emergen cy, it was varied. I'm wondering what the formula is specifically.

Or is it laid down on paper specifically what the formula will be for sharing of the proceeds? HON. M. SMITH: We can either wait and get the information right now or I could undertake to table it with you at our next Session. There are details in the Auditor's Report that give the breakout. I draw your attention to 3(

b) where there is a comment on the Purse Overpayment. So that's with regard to Winnipeg racing. The No. 4 does give the detail on the Emerge ncy Fund. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if it is my proble m in that I don't have a whole overall understa nding of this particular area or not, but I gu ess I am trying to determine whether there has been an agreed-upon formula at this point going into the new racing year as to how these surtax revenues will be split.

In other words, for instance, do the standard horse breeders know what share will be coming their way in this current year regard less of what the total pool is of proceeds? HON. M. SMITH: It is a compl icated area. I can get more detail for the next session, but basically the Standardbre d are a different group. They are tied in with the winter raci ng, the harness racing. So it's the Thorou ghb red where we have the split between the bre eders and the horsemen. There is arrangeme nt if they - and the Em ergency Fund maintaining it at a certain level.

If there is any imbalance in last year, the adjustment is agr eed on for the upcoming year in the 50-50 splitting, but it's a negotiated settlement with them. MR. C. MANNESS: Then moving into the next season of the Standardbre d season which would be next fall - (Interjection) - no, not the Thorou ghbre d season HON. M. SMITH: There is no exotic wagering with Standardbre ds. Sor ry, sor ry. The same pattern, the 50- 2762

Monday, 16 May, 1983 50 split between the horsemen and the bre eders where there is exotic wagering. That is where you are into the gu essing end of the betting, the Exactors and that. MR. C. MANNESS: So the Minister is saying now that the re is some form of exotic be tting within the Standardbreds racing. HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, we're gradually arriving at the point I want to arrive at.

Is the Minister now saying that there is a formula that determine s at 50 percent of the re ven ues unde r the exotic be tting in the Standardbre d season to start this coming fall - the fall of 83 - that will pay out to the Standard horse breeders some 50 percent of those proceeds. HON. M. SMITH: It's still being negotiated for the Standardbred, so that I really can't report on the final arrangement. It's a negotiated settlement. MR. C. MANNESS: Are the se nego tiations be ing actively conducted at this moment in time , and what is set as a date for the completion of those negotiations? HON. M.

SMITH: I know there have been prelimin ary negotiations and the final will have to be, of course, before the next meet starts, but within that, I can't give you any precise timetable on ii. I would assume that as the Thoroughb red season is moving along smooth ly, that then the planning for the next session will be under way. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would like to also ask the Minister something regarding the Standardbreds, and probably it doesn't relate to the Assiniboia Downs at all.

It relates to the rural circuit for this coming summe r of Standardbre d racing in Manitoba, and I believe it does come under the Horse Racing Commission. Is that corre ct? Could the Minister give me information as to the breakou t on the purse structures there and the support for Manitoba breeding that comes from the province in that particular field? HON. M. SMITH: I have this in the form of dollar amounts, not percentages. The Gre at Western Cir cuit, the purse support is 151 ,000; the breeder's award, 63, 400 ; the sire stake s, 20,000; the capital improvements, 33,000; for a total of 267,400.

The qu arter horse activity , purse support in breeders, 11 ,500; capital improvements 25,000; for a total of 36,500. MR. H. ENNS: In the quarter horse stakes, the 25,000 in the capital improvements, where does that occur? HON. M. SMITH: I think we discu ssed the quarter horse meets last Session, and there are incidentals involved in operating those. It might have to do with starting equipment or something of that sort, but this last year, we in fact spent around 7,000, 6.8, 6,800 for that.

It's still under negotiation with the Standardbre d as to what their needs are, but it is there in order to permit some upgrading of the . . . MR. H. GRAHAM: Mind you, we're talking quarter horse now, not Standardbred. Are we not? You ind icated the re is 25,000 for capital improvements. HON. M. SMITH: The amount of money, 25,000, is there, and the n interested communitie s that wish to run a quarter horse meet apply for some of that if they require it. MR. H. GRAHAM: To date, what applications has the Minister on file for that amount of money? HON. M. SMITH: We've had one from Mccre ary and one from Rossburn.

MR. H. GRAHAM: Has there been a dollar figure attached to either one of them in their req uest? HON. M. SMITH: No. I presume they have indicated the ir intere st and would discuss with the Commission their requirements. MR. H. GRAHAM: Last year the Minister indicated there were $6,800, I believe, in capital improvements. Was that to the Rossburn quarter horse track? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: There was no money spent last year then on the Mccre ary track. HON. M. SMITH: That's correct. MR. H.

GRAHAM: There is 25,000 available in this year's Estim ates for capital impr ovements for qu arter horse racing in Manitoba during the current fiscal year. Is that corre ct? That's subject to Ministerial approval, naturally. I would imagine the Minister would have to approve of the capital improvements before a grant would be made, or is it just a blanket? HON. M. SMITH: The Minister approves the guideline s and criteria for expenditure on the capital side , and the n the Commission would administer that. MR. H. GRAHAM: Has the Minister establishe d the guideline s then? HON. M.

SMITH: No, that's part of a development process that the Commission will be undertaking in negotiation with the industry. MR. H. GRAHAM: So the re are no establishe d guidelines. The Minister approves the project subject to the approval of the guideline s, and there are only two applications so far in the field. Is that a corre ct statement of the present picture in quarter horse racing in Manitoba? 2763

Monday, 16 May, 1983 HON. M. SMITH: Yes. I thi nk what we are getting is a developmental situation and we don't know - when we only had one or whatever, we didn't need much of a program. It could be a once-only reco mmendation but, as we are moving into more interest in the field, we'll be developing a more soph isticated program. MR. H. GRAHAM: Has there been much dialogue between the com mu niti es of Mccre ary and Rossburn and their Quarter Horse Associations and the Manitoba Horse Racing Commi ssion in the last six months? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. They are in touch. MR. H.

GRAHAM: Has it been on a steady ongoing basis, or has it been sporadic? HON. M. SMITH: My staff inform me, it's ongoing. I can ge t more pre ci se informa ti on if the me mb er req uests. MR. H. GRAHAM: No. Mr . Chai rman. I am just interested. I want to know if there is a sincere interest in the comm unities. We know there is 25,000 available. We're rapidly approaching the qu arte r horse racing. If the guideline s haven't been established yet and the communi ti es are still in dialogue, I would hope that there are some parameters established very quickly so that these two com munities can take

part in the capital projects, because there appears to be 25,000 available to assist the m if they know what direction they have to go and what criteria they have to meet to qu alify for those grants. So I would hope that dialogue is an ongoing one, and that there are not too many undue stumbling blocks place d be fore the Qu arter Horse Association in Mccre ary and in Rossburn. because I believe it's a new, exciting field of racing that has moved up from the southwest of United States where it is very active and very strong and gets large support from the communi ty at large.

I see a growing interest in it in Manitoba here, and we are certainly going to be the pioneers in this area, aside from a small segm ent in Alberta. I thi nk that there is a gre at future here in Manitoba for qu arter horse racing, and the Minister is showing some courag e in stepping out and putting forward a lump sum of 25,000 for capital improvements for the current fiscal year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1) - the Membe r for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, on

Schedule F in the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission Report, it has a list of incomes that the licence fees bring in to the Commission. I understand - in fact, I have some figures before me - that there has been a considerable increase in all of the se lice nc es. The y went up for the Standardb red meet and the n they went back down, and now they are in place again for the year of 19 83. I migh t say that I called the Comm ission Offices last week and asked if I could have a list of the previous charge s and the new charge s, and I didn't get it. When I phoned back, I was referred to the Minister's office.

Rather strange that a public document of that sort would get that reference, especially to a member. Also rather strange when there are probably 1, 000 people out there working and I bet I could get the same information from 500 people. It seems rathe r silly that the Mi nister's office de mands that. They tell the switchboard operator to call her office for this public information. Neverthele ss, the owners went up from 11 to 25, trainers 21 to 25 - that's the information I have - vets, 16 to 25; jockeys 16 to 25.

All of these people probably are making a little more money every year and they can probably afford to pay more money. I kn ow that the lice ncing is just basi cally an identification for anybody that goes onto the track and the costs of film and picture s is getting fairly expensive. As a matter of fact, officials were $3; now they're $5, but they'll gain a dollar because it used to be $3 for each meet. Now, if a person is an official behind the wickets for both, they'll be better off. Trades people now have to pay $10 instead of $6 for their licence; sponsors go from $5 to $10.

But there's one listed on the aud itor's re port and it's calle d backstretch, and usually referre d to as grooms and people that clean the stables. Very often, in fact, they are a group of student employees, young people who work out at the track, and theirs went from $3 to $1 0.00. They have to pay a very large increase to work at the track. That doesn't seem fair to me when we want summer employment at the track, and I'm sure they'll all pay it, but it's almost another tax on their jobs. Mr.

Sp eak er, doe s the Mi niste r app rove the se increases, and why would we have an increase of that si ze on jobs th at are us ually summer jobs or unemployed people look ing for work? HON. M. SMITH: Well, I'm sure the member recogn izes the fact that we are operating a business at the track and one of the cardinal pri nciples, I thi nk, when one is operating a business is that one watches very closely both the outgo and the income.

The outgo costs have been rising stead ily - materials, the film for photo licences - the charge for people to process the occupational licences has been going up at qu ite a steady rate and yet there has been no increase in the licence fees from 19 75 through to 19 82. We felt that since our whole thru st this past year has been to put the track on a sound well-managed basis, that these increases were justified, and it is our reading that the people involved in working at the track want a soundly operated track.

They real ize it's in their best inter est that we have such a track and we haven't had really, to my knowledge , negative reaction to these increases which admittedly look high on a percent basis, but in absolute terms, or if prora ted over that per iod of time, are really very moderate. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speak er, the Mi nister is just telling me what I told her; that we fully realize costs have gone up, but it's hard to understand that the cost of films to take the grooms and the sweepers and everybody, those kids that work back in the backstretch, that the cost went from $3 to $10 to take th eir picture.

I am also aware that when they have this particular licence, they bring the horses up and they can stay around and be not in the jockey club, but can be part of the racing activities. 2764

Monday, 16 May, 1983 I probably will receive the same answer from the Minister, but I think $3 to $10 for probably the lowest paid people at the track is not taking consid eration of those people. I think the Racing Commission should take a look at that particular area of licence fees, because it took probably the highe st percentage jump on the people that make the le ast money at the track. That do es not sound like an NOP Go ve rnme nt philosophy. HON. M.

SMITH: I think an NOP Go vernm ent philosophy is to achieve balance and good management and, in our opinion, a prorate d increase over eight years is that really we're caught in a catch-up situation and we want the track to run in a businesslike way. We want the decisions about how many people to hire and what wages to pay, and so on, to be made in full rec ognition of legitimate costs. I think it's very poor business practice not to refl ect some of that in the charges, and the longer one delays adjusti ng, the more serious it would be.

I think if we were dealing with fees three and four times hig her than that, a phasing process would be desirable, but I don't in all honesty feel that the commission has made too abru pt a change. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister and I, neither one of us will win. The train ers, I can see if they're getting more money, they can pay more. They went from 21 to 25; that wasn't too tough on them. The owners can go from 11 to 25; nobody's complaining. Jocke ys, if the purse s are highe r, they're going to make a better percentage; and vets, if their service s go up, they go up.

Officials are probably getting a little more money. But the group of people making the minimum wage out the re, which is one of the larg est groups of people on the track and usually summe r employment kids, went up the best percentage of most. The Minister, maybe they feel that can be justified - personally, I don't think it can - but if that's the decision of the commission, we must just abide by it. Certain ly, if the Minister agr ees with it, it's the re. I can assure you that it would be change d if I had any1hing to say about it. HON. M.

SMITH: I think the trick in good managing, as I understand it, is to keep these things moving in some kind of relationship to one another. We're dealing with a dynamic system. The membe r opposite mi ght recall th at we do gradually increase the minimu m wage and I think that if you looked at the total picture of the wage and the licence fee over that 19 75-83 period, that you really wouldn't find too much imbalance. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1 )- pass; 2.(a)(1 )(a), Operations, Strategic Planning: Salaries - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I wonder if I could ask the Minister the Strategic Planning - they were involved in in the departmental issues and program development, federal­ provincial agreements. I would assume they are still taking on the same resp onsibility, but I wonder if she could give me an outline of what the Strategic Planning De par tme nt is ze roing in on, spe cifically in the department at the present time . HON. M.

SMITH: This department plays a role within our departm ent and also in the Economic Resource Investment Committee for the economic activities of the government at large, and I guess that is an enlarged role from before in providing the approach, if you like, to do what we call strategic planning which is really the front-end planning one is required to do before zeroing in on planning the next year's work, trying to keep a watching brie f, if you like, on the general economic conditions in the country and in Manitoba specifically, keeping us up to date on trends in the marke ts, keeping a watching brie f on the changing programs and pol icy programs of the Fed eral Government and keeping us in a ready position to get the most we possibly can for Manitobans out of new federal programs, influence the m in our favour, where we can, and I gu ess identify new opportunitie s in each of the sub-heading areas.

Be cause the manda te of this grou p has be en expanded from the departmental activities to include the total economic activities of the government, we've been going throu gh qu ite a transition where we review very carefully the things that have been done and identify those things which, in some cases, tasks that have been completed and can now be set aside, others which are no longer as rele vant in 01 jer to free up time and resource s to tackle the broader issues.

As we said last year, as a government we believe in looking at the full range of public, private and range of joint venture partnershi p-type act ivitie s and evaluating where we should put our limited resources to get the most gain in the area of jobs, quality of jobs and stronger economic structure for the province. We don't prejudge which is bett er, to sort of retain in the Crown corporation field, or which should stay in the private sector , or which should maybe move to some kind of partnership arrangement.

What we are looking at is the best return for the people of Manitoba, and whichever method is best desig ned to meet that end, that's what this group will rec omme nd. So, in a sense, they provide the ears and the eyes for some of the broader economic issues for the govern ment, and then help us focus in on our particular programs to see that we're gett ing the most effect for the dollars and time spent. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, that's an outline of what they're doing. I said, are there any specific areas they're investigating at the present time ? HON. M.

SMITH: Each grouping is doing their future fore casts and reco mmendations for the coming year. So, they're in a sense, always a jump ahead of where we're at at the moment.

The current changes that have resulted from work they did back awhile, as I say, staffing the ERIC Committee and, the refore, helping to plan out the studie s for some of the energy and mines activities, Crown investment activities, for estry, field and then for our own working with industry and trade in the technology field, having provided us for the, I guess, building on much of what the membe r will remembe r was done in his time and which he referred to in the House today, the rec ognition that we must move ahead in our manufactu ring and industrial technology.

They were largely responsi ble for rec ommending an incre ased allocation of resource to the technology 2765

Monday, 16 May, 1983 centre and the launching of the CADCAM Initiative, that's assisting local manufacturers to understand the relevance of technology and the application of it to their operations. They have helped in developing the Venture Capital Program, which is attempting to meet the shortfall in venture capital for small innovative companies here in Manitoba.

They've helped develop the Buy-Manitoba Program, which is our approach to procurement policy, very little prote ctionism in it, but a lot of how to get increased access for local firms to government purchases, how to see that government procurement is designe d in such a way to be accessible to local firms, how to explore on occasion when it might be desirable to give a preferential price to a Manitoba firm, bu t within very tight li mits and never of a permanent nature.

The other side of that, of course, is the Trade Initiative, because one of the key things in building a stronger economic structure here is import substitution on the one side , which we can do by meeting more of our own needs ourselves, but also in trade promotion. They are helping to develop along with the trade group in the Industry and Trade

section a thru st for a kind of focused use of our trade resources. They have helped to negotiate the extension of the Enterprise Manitoba Agreement and worked throu gh the best arrangeme nt we could to keep those monies flowing during the extension period. Of course, they are working with our federal counterparts on what are to be the replacements of that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)( 1)(a)- pass; 2.(a)( 1)(b)- pass; 2.( a)(2) (

a) Technol ogy, Sala rie s - the Membe r for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, is the Director - this usually has about three or four people in it or five people. There has been no change in the complement of staff. Ju st the one qu estion, the Dire ctor of Technology is still working with the Manitoba Research Council? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I know that this will come up under 2.(

e) very likely, Enterprise Manitoba, Manitoba Research Council, but are the boards of the Technology Centre and the the boards of the Food Centre still resp onsible to the board of the Manitoba Research Council? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well I can discuss it further along, and the Dire ctor works with the Manitoba Research Council. In this

section of Technology, we have the Technology Centre and the Food Centre. That's fine, pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(2)(a)- pass; 2.(a)(2)(b)- pass; 2.(a )(3)(

a) Industrial Design, Salaries - MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Minister was qu estioned on Industrial Design in the House. I'm sure she was referring to the Enterprise Manitoba agreement when she said the money was running out or had run out. The Industrial Design agreement is still in force with the Federal Governm ent and there are still funds there, aren't there? HON. M. SMITH: The applications that were on hand when we negotiated the extension are really enough to use up the monies available in that program, so we really don't have monies there.

I would remind the member, and he would probably remembe r it better than I, the establishment of a lot of the design assistance work was an attempt, (1) to raise the awareness of firms here of the importance of good design; (2) to give them some experience with a good design program; and (3) to not make them dependent or keep them dependent on the support of a government design program. To a very larg e exte nt, that has be en succ essful. I am just reminde d here that our best estimate of what remains in the program over and above the work that we have committe d is around 38,000.00.

So it's definite ly in a wind-down condition. The other valuable work that has been done by this group is helping our firms access federal monies support for design, and we have managed to lever a gr eat deal of money there quite successfully . MR. F. JOHNSTON: Isn't this the

section where we had the Premier's - it is the

section where we had the Premier's Awards and we had all kinds of - we had a separate board to admin ister the applications for industrial design funds from the Federal Government? Is this going to end? Does the board go and we will not have an Industrial Design Section? HON. M. SMITH: No, every other year the Premier's awards have been held. We are recom mending a repeat of that, but I gu ess we will be having it on a somewhat more modest scale.

The Design Institute is still in place and, as you well know, they have been very active in educat ing their own member groups or perhaps acting as a conduit between their own specialist design groups and the business public as to the role they could play. They will be in charge of running the Premier's Awards. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(3)(a) - the Member for Sturge on Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the board is still going to be the re and, of course , the boar d is administering applications which does make use of a tremendou s amount of federal money.

The board also does make recommendations on how the dire ctor would operate. There was, as the Minister says, counselling, all kinds of counselling being done, recommendation and - well pardon me, counselling and education as to the value of good packaging, good advert ising; in other words, making your produ ct presentable to the marke t. The board also worke d with the director on making the suggestions as to possibly what seminars should be held and what industries they would be focusing on at any given time. Now I am just a little confused in this resp ect that the board is still going to be the re.

There is still going to be federal money there, and you have a budge t for the Industrial Design to still advise small business on 2766

Monday, 16 May, 1983 the advantages of good design. Where is it ending? What is ending in this whole process? HON. M. SMITH: The dire ct funding tor the actual design project under the DASP program. The other activities will be continuing. - (Interjection) - Will be continuing. It's the dire ct grants that won't be occurring, but their goal and the reasonable expectation of federal money that will be accessed through the counselling and existing groups to identify their needs and make application is about $4 million.

That goal has been set looking at the past experience and it's within that ball park of monies that they've been able to secure in the past. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Fine, that's what I was interested in. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(3)(a)-pass; 2.(a)(3) (b)- pass - the Member for Sturge on Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I just have one comment on (

b) Other Expenditu res. It's about one of the few Other Expenditure s that has an increase, so I imagine that they will be giving I believe the services they gave before, versu s nearly all the Other Expenditu res are down. HON. M. SMITH: That incre ase is attributable to the Premier's Award which occurs every other year, so it was down last year and up this year but, as I say, it is a more modest undertaking than in previous years. We thou ght in keeping with the times that an equally sincere rec ognition of good design, but a more modest public event was appropriate. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(3) (b)- pass; 2.(a )(4)(

a) Human Resource Management, Salaries - the Honour able Memb er for Sturge on Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: There's an incre ase of one person here or one SMY. The salaries are up - excuse me, just one second, Mr. Chairman, pardon me. That's corre ct, the salarie s have incre ased which the Minister has explained on several occasions, but you've got an increase in salaries of $23,500.00. When you take the incre ases of the salaries of the people that are there now, what type of person nel was hired to Human Resource Management?

It doesn't seem that there's a lot of money left for an SMY when you subt ract the incre ase in salaries from the $23,500.00. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, the re is a straig htforward explanation here. There was a secretarial position trans ferred in from the Regional Benefits area, and so that accounts really for the incre ase; the re's a dire ctor, a secretary and a consultant. In fact, that secretary had been withdrawn last year and we found that the workload was such that it made more sense to have that person in this group. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(4)(a)- pass; 2.(a)(4)(b)- pass; 2.(a)(5)(a) - the Honoura ble Member for Sturge on Cr eek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, it had been brought to my attention that there were two people that were no longer with this department and the SMY's haven't changed. Has there been a change in the personnel of this depar tment? HON. M. SMITH: There has been a cutback in the activities of this department, but we have a couple of people on a redeployme nt list and so they remain here until we have them redeployed.

The purpose of the cutback in this department was that some of the activies, we checked through the regular reports and analyses that were being done and some could be done less often or had outlived their useful ness. We wanted to increase our allocation in the technology field in the MRC and that's really where the new thru st, if you like, is being put. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(5)(a)- pass; 2.(a)(5)(b) - the Honourable Membe r for Sturgeon Cre ek MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, how can you have a $1 0,000 drop in Other Expenditures if you have the same amount of people?

I know the Minister has mentioned that the activities of the department are not as gr eat, but a $10, 000 drop in Other Expenditures when you have the same numbe r of people. I'm well aware that if you have the people in that department there's lots for them to do as tar as research is concerned. I don't suggest for one minute, or I wouldn't think for one minute, that the people that are on redeployment are sitting around doing nothing. How can you have that type of a drop in Other Expenditures? The Salaries - there's a lot of people in that department.

The Salarie s are basically the incre ase, but Other Expenditures I can't understand that kind of a decre ase and give the same service. HON. M. SMITH: When we re viewed the outpu t of this department, each item or each area of work was looked at: ( 1) in terms of its current benefit; (2) had it completed the task orginally set out for it? (3) could it be done less often? What we conclu de d was tha t those were ve ry impor tant and useful community reports. I know the membe r will be familiar with the m.

We feel that a good base has been establishe d for those reports and that they can now be updated every two years and continue to serve the purpose for which they were intended. There are other smaller areas where we made the same kind of judgment. The peoples' time will be devoted to providing more tactical research support for line branche s, and in some cases doing some anticipatory work rather than doing a lot of service type projects on request. In our estimation we will have a tighte r operation there and that we can in fact manage within the fig ures as recorded. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(5)(b)-pass; 2.(b)(1 )(

a) Industry and Trade, Administra tion, Salaries - the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr . Chairman, I notice the Administration has gone up by one in this department. Are we looking at support staff, or are we looking at incre ased execut ive staff? HON. M. SMITH: We added a strategic planner to this group to work in conjunction with the Strategic Planning 2767

Monday, 16 May, 1983 Department in both the industry and the trade s section. We are taking a targe ted approach on the industry side to attracting new invest ment here. We know that we cannot compe te on a dollar-for-dollar or incentive-type plan, so we knew that we would have to refine our information in a much more targe ted way to go after companies that would be interested in coming here. To prepare a lot of that material and assist with the focu sing, we've put a planner in that position. We have been carrying out the same type of activity in the trades section. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: You mentioned there is a strategic planner with this group. Earlier in the Strategic Planning Department, you mentioned working with them, and I can see the value of having him there. Is the strategic planner doing analysis of the type of business that would be suitable for Manitoba? HON. M.

SMITH: I would say that the strategic planner has helped the people in the industry side focus in on how to go about identifying businesses that would likely be intere sted in Manitoba, looking at our comparative advantages, the types of companies where there would be a high probability of invest ment here, and the n in a sense making the - rather than having the sectoral people sort of covering the waterfront, it's producing a targeti ng.

That is not to suggest that hasn't been done before, but one thing about strategic planning is you can't base this year's plan on last year's awareness of the world out th ere, because the world out there is changing in the economic sphere. It has changed very rapidly in the past year, so we feel that we have to make sure that we are assessing changes in the broader world against that background, focusing our own activity as well as we can. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)( 1)( a) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Would the strategic planner be the person in the department working with the Strategic Planning Department that would decide, say, if there was somebody walked into the office s as sometime s happened and says, we're interested in Manitoba? Would the y be in the position of advising the development officers whether to proceed with that particular program, or not?

What I am saying is that there are lots of times when people should take the advice of the provincial Industry and Trade Department as to what has proven to be successful in Manitoba and what has not and what they feel could be a bad investment. There can be a lot of time wasted on projects that are not going to end up being desirable or geographically right for this province. Does the strategic planner make the decision as to whe the r the de velopm ent officers proc eed or not proceed? HON. M.

SMITH: No, I think the operational staff deal with the firms that come knocking on our door and say, we're interested, what do you think, or what can you tell us to help us come to a decision. They are involved in a co-operative process of sharing what information we have, listening to the special needs and interests of a potential investor and the n helping them plan the next steps. In those cases, it's the investor that is going to make the final decision, but we certainly lay out the red carpe t and assist the m in whatever way we can.

The strategic planner is really enabling us to have another dimension to our activity and that's an outreach, a going out and looking for firms which we can entice here. Then, since you can't just send people out, go forth and seek out willing investors; you have to do some advance work. You have to select what size of firm or type of firm or type of sectoral activity might indeed have an opportunity here, fit well with our particular geography and cost structure, the whole thing. It's assisting with that sort of analysis and then in a sense helping to plan the outre ach program.

That's really in the industry side. On the trade side , of course, it's helping provide some of that knowledge of the opportunitie s that are out there and the particular difficulties involved in trade, the support programs that are around, and the n trying to make a proper marriage of people with potential to sell with countrie s or other firms with potential interest to buy. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: Ju st one qu estion to the Minister, Mr. Chairman.

Who would share it before it goes on between the pro·1i ncial planners and the Winnipeg Chambe r of Co mme rce eco nomic de ve lopme nt planner? Do they move in isolation of each oth er, or do they co-ordinate any of the planning together? HON. M. SMITH: The co-ordination comes throu gh having ou r people att end, available to prov ide information. There was a luncheon today which I would have liked to be at. The ADM from that

section sits on the Winnipeg Enterprise Development Board. I know I get their regular reports and read them very care fully. I think we both, along with the Honourable Membe r for Sturgeon Creek, all like to take a little bit of credit for the NRC lab because I think we all did our

part in our respective role s to promote it. So I would say that the information-sharing and the co-operation is the re. MR. R. NORDMAN: When I was on City Council, I sat on the Economic Development Board for a number of years, but it just seemed that we were moving in our own circles. My experience was that there was only one time that there seemed to be some co-operation between the province and the city to get something in. It's just interesting to know that they still move almost in isolation to each oth er. HON. M.

SMITH: I was with you up until the last comme nt when you said that they move almost in isolation, because I think it was the opposite impression that I was trying to . . . MR. R. NORDMAN: Well, it certa inly has improved then. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, and I would hope that we find better ways to collaborate, because our role has to be 2768

Monday, 16 May, 1983 to try to help the private sector to do a better job. Some time s we' re taking advice from the m and someti mes they are getting some thru st and help from us; I think that's as it should be, but I think the informal contact that goe s on is quite extensive too. I think if we noted the numbe r of times we've rubbe d shoulde rs in various business shows and meetings - certain ly, I give every encouragement to the staff to maintain sound contact and make every effort myself to do likewise. A MEMBER: Thank you, Madam Minister. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.( b)( 1)(a)-pass; 2.( b)( 1)(b )- pass; 2.(b) (2)(a) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the incre ase in salaries, first of all, is I imagine attribu ted to the standard incre ases and there has been another two SMYs added to this group. Are these two SMYs new development officers? HON. M. SMITH: No, one of the persons is an administrative secretary; the other is a dire ctor of business evaluation and assessment.

We found ourse lves incre asingly de aling with companies which were having severe financial problems or were facing very difficult decisions for the future, and we felt we had to incre ase our own capacity to deal with this end of things. So many of our consultants were used to dealing with the development, the start­ up end of things, and what we were facing with quite a few comp anie s was the immine nt da nge r of bankru ptcy and receivers hip. So we felt that putting a person on staff who had special talents in this area would be a gre at boon to us and also could help increase the skills of our own staff.

I might draw your attention to a news release that came out recently when John Buhl er, the President of Farm King, identified that he had been introdu ced to the opportunity to acquire Standard Industrie s, I think it was called, throu gh the efforts of Bill Kinnear, who was a senior economic development officer - actually, it was in the Small business Development Branch of our department. I gu ess when we meet some of these cases, we need a good financial analysis in order to give good advice.

Occasionally , when the y're also looking for government assistance, we just have to be more familiar with the whole receivers hip bankr uptcy, refi nancing end of things, and that's why we've put that person on. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister tell us who that person is and what his experience was? Did he come from the department or the government? HON. M. SMITH: It was Bill Kinnear, who was a charte red accountant with a lot of industrial experience. I think the little note I just read you from the news release probably was inaccurate in saying he was with the Small Business Development Centre.

Really, he was our business and evaluation assessment officer coming out of this particular branch, but since we do make available among our divisions the expertise we have available, that's why he was so helpful to use in that particular negotiation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( b)(2)(a) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: And the other person is a support staff person? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, an administrative secre tary.

As you know, we have very busy senior consultants in that department, roughly allo cated to main sectors; and for their work to be effective, having the administrative support, is really worthwhile. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Was Mr. Grant's salary in this department? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. He was a consultant in the aerospace area. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I know Mr. Grant's contract hasn't been renewed and what I'm looking at is a $230,000 increase in Salaries. Now, if the new people even were at $1 00,000 - I doubt if they're at that - we'd be a little bit out of line.

Can the Minister explain that increase in salaries? You've lost one person. HON. M. SMITH: Maybe, I'll addre ss the loss. We do have a senior development officer in aerospace who is sort of on staff. Mr. Grant was an extra consultant in the aerospace industry and, as you know, if there is enough work in an area, in a sector, to have a staff person, it works more economically to have them on staff than on a straight consu ltancy basis, although, Mr. Grant did do valuable work for us when there was a certain volume of work.

You might recall that he also served us very very well as one of the two people who moved into Winnipeg racing and helped operate out at the track du ring the inte rim pe rio d after the receiver ship. The reason that the salary total is so high, apart from the fact there are two new people on staff, is that what we have in this branch is probably one of the most powerful - and I use it in the sense of skill and ability - senior consu ltants in the government.

Each one is respo nsible for a particular sector of the economy, and in orde r to act as advisors to go ve rnme nt and consultants to industry in a sector, they are people with wide experience and they do command a very fairly sound level of salary. They have a high classification and, as the membe r knows, we are dealing with people who made their way in the private sector for the most part. I gu ess for government to retain people of good quality we must, if not match the best of the private sector, which we probably can't aspire to do, nor can we go too much beneath it. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I wasn't qu estioning Mr. Grant. I know his contract wasn't renewed, I know him very well, and I know that he's very satisfied with what he's doing right at the present time. I'm aware that these fellows are highly paid employees of the Provincial Govern ment. As a matter of fact, there are people in the government who wonder why they should have the salary they have, and I'm sure the Auditor's Department raises their eyebrows sometimes at their expenses, but they do have a specific job to do. But 2769

Monday, 16 May, 1983 if the increases had of been 20 percent, which I dou bt that they were in one year, that would have been around $1 00,000, and the re's still about another $90,000 for another two people. You know, I'm going to the extreme. I'm aware that these are well-paid employees, but an increase of 230,500 in the ir salaries with only one administrative staff and a new development officer status, or close -to-it status, plus the fact that there has been one person droppe d seems to be an excessive incre ase.

I'm aware of the fact that the staff sitting behind you are accurate people and don't make that many mistakes, but that seems like an excessive incre ase. HON. M. SMITH: I should just corre ct one thing. The consultant lee for Mr . Grant did appear in the expenditure column before. Our reason for preferring the staff position where the volume of work merits it is just our general preference for that as a more efficient way of organizing our activities. We were very pleased with the work done by Mr. Grant, but the volume of work just did not.merit ongoing consultant work.

Shou ld there be an opportunity or a particular problem arise where our sectoral person was unable to handle the task in the time frame where we needed the work done, we would, of course, move to the consultancy field again, but we didn't feel that was a regular staffing pattern we wanted to adopt.

The increase does look high, but I remind the member that if you take the two salary incre ases that occurre d in that time frame, plus the 27th pay period and realize that you're dealing with one of the highe st - 13 of the 17 people are very highly placed in the civil service range - it does, I assure you, come out to that total. I think it's been quite accurately arrived at. The chief value, as I said, of these people in this . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30, we are breaking the procee dings of this committee for Private Members' Hour. We shall be back, hopeful ly, at 8:00 p.m.

SUPPLY - ENVI RONM ENT AND WORKPLA CE SAF ETY AND HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee come to ord er. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of the Environme nt and Workplace Safety and Health. Item 6. Worker Advisor Office (

a) Salaries - Mr. Minister. HON. J. COWAN: Ju st a couple opening remarks on that; the Worker Advisor's Office was originally formed last year in response to what we believed was a need for assistance for claim ants involve d in Workers Compensation claims. It's a major program of this govern ment and one which we believe will serve injure d workers and the Workers Compensation system in this province extremely well in the future. We have ope ned offices over the past year in Winnipeg, Thompson, Brandon, and an office serving the Flin Flon-The Pas area.

Those office s have been made available to injured work ers, and we believe we have had a sufficient or an encourag ing response from workers in one re spect and discouraging in the oth er. It is encourag ing to know that the office is so needed and that it has gained such widespread acceptance in its short history. At the same time, it's discouraging to note that there are so many workers who believe they have claims with the Workers Compensation Board which have not been dealt with in a satisfactory fashion.

The advisers have receive d since their inception - the opening of the Advisory office in Septemb er, 1982 - over 6,350 phone calls. They have opened 310 new cases and had a number of files reactivated, and they have finalized 10 8 cases since that time. So it's been a fairly active program over the last year and one which we think is serving the public well and will continue to serve the public well. There are no anticipated changes in staffi ng levels or in the delivery mechanisms for the upcoming year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Membe r for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, my qu estion to the Minister rise s out of his statement that the worker advisors have settle d 10 8 cases. Could he indicate how many cases have been finalized favourably to worke rs? HON. J.

COWAN: We believe they are running on average about 70 percent that are finalized in favour of the workers, or where the worker is satisfied that the claim has been finalized to the degree to which they had wanted and expected it to be finalized; 30 percent, the refore, are not finalized in that manner, and the worker still has some disagreement as to whether or not they had receive d the ir full and just service from the Workers Compensation Board system. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I didn't get down the full figu re s. How many cases have they dealt with during this period of time? HON. J.

COWAN: The most recent figures I have, as of the end of April of this year, indicate that they have assig ned new cases to a total of 310 and have reactivated 11 files. They have finalized 10 8 of those. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister advise how many - or perhaps he can confirm for me. I'm working from his press release of last Septem ber. It would appear that there are a total of seven worke r advisors in the pr ovince, four in Winnipeg and one each in Brandon, Flin Flon and Thompson, and that there is an overall dire ctor. Is that the case? HON. J. COWAN: Yes, that would be the total numbe r.

MR. G. MERCIER: Have there been new offices opened in these variou s locations? My unders tanding is, I believe, that Workers Compensation Board had offices in the se localities. Are these all new offices? HON. J. COWAN: There was not an office of Workers Compensation Board or the government in any of those areas previously, except for Winnipeg, to deal with cases of this nature. There was an individual in Thompson who was doing some Workers Compensation Board work; there was an individual in the Department of Labour who was doing part-time work as a worker 2770

Monday, 16 May, 1983 advisor, but they were not working out of Worker Advisor office s per se, so this is an entirely new program in that regard. There are office s in those locales which I mentioned earli er. However, they are using existing locations and areas for the most part except for the city. In the City of Winnipeg, there is a new office complex itself. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister advise whether the total sum shown here, $347,000, for worker advisers includes all of the salaries and compe nsation to the advisers, the directors? I assume there is some secretarial staff.

Does it include the furnishings, rent, office supplies, all of the expenses of the worker advisers? Is all of that included in the total figure of $347,000.00? HON. J. COWAN: I understand the only item that isn't included is the rent which is covered by Governm ent Services. I guess that's the way in which that is done, I understa nd, or practised. I also apologize to the membe r. I have to revise my figures. When I gave you fig ures previou sly, I was doing it on the assumption that they had been from September 17, 19 82, to April 30, 19 83.

What I did in fact give you due to an oversight on my part was the 19 83 figu res. The total cases that have been assigned for 19 82 and 19 83 is 913 in total. I would have to find out how many have been finalized and reactivated in that regard. MR. G. MERCIER: For clarification, the Minister has indicated the 913 cases for 19 82-83. Is he saying the figure of 108 being finalized is not the corre ct figure for that total number of cases for 19 82-83? HON. J. COWAN: I do apologize. The wrong figures were my fault.

There have been about 200 cases finalized, and there have been about 913 new cases assigned in total and then a number of files reactivated, but it would be a minor number in comparison to the 913. It would be in the area of 10 to 20, I would imagine . So using 900 as a rough figure, out of the 900 new cases that are cases they're working on in an active way, about 200 have been finalized. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister explain the delay then in not finalizing the other 700 cases? HON. J.

COWAN: There are a numbe r of reasons for the delay, but I think the most promine nt one is the fact that the Workers Compensation Board is handling a large numbe r of cases right now. They do not have the capacity to move more cases thr0ugh their system in order to expedite this. They are working on ways of making their operation more efficient, and I'm certain we'll have an opportunity to discu ss that under their particular section. In the meanwhile, some of the cases are taking longer than they would like them to be and longer than we would like the m to be.

It must also be noted that these are in a large part the most difficult cases. These are the cases that have defied satisfactory re solution to both the board and the claimant in the past. So the re has to be a considerable amount of research done on them; you are almost always involved in an appeal proce ss, and that takes a gre at deal of time.

So it's been a matter of trying to deal with a backlog of cases going back to - well, going back several generations at least - and I can get you the date of the oldest case that they are working with, but it goes quite far back - trying to review those cases, get all the necessary documentation togeth er, developing the brie fs, presenting the brie fs and taking them to the board. So you're dealing with the most complex cases, firstly. You're dealing with a board that is trying to deal with a large backlog and develop some new policy in other areas.

That combi nation has resulted in what we consider to be a response time that will be improve d over the future, and one which we would seek to improve over the future, as soon as we can get part of the backlog out of the way. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister explain the usual procedure that a worker advisor would follow in dealing with an average case? HON. J. COWAN: They would most likely be contacted by eit her the claimant or a re presentative of the claimant. They would the n have an intervie w with the claimant either by phone or in per-;;on if possible.

They would then take down the necessary detail on that claimant's case as a result of that intervi ew. They would then go to the Work ers Compensation Board or request from the Workers Compensation Board the file on that particular claimant. They would review the file. Sometime s those files are four, or five, or six, or seven inches tall; perhaps even thicke r in some cases going away back.

They would, on the basis of that review of the fil e, work with the claimant either to develop new material to go in the file, and that may include a new medical report, or a new report from the employer, or just new documentation on the part of the claimant himself or herself. If they felt that it was appropriate, they would prepare a brief if necessary to take to the Board of Commissioners. In some instances, they will go dire ctly to the Claims Department and pre sent the case there. If, in fact, it's accepted at that level, the n that's been an easy case.

That is a rarity to date because you're dealing with very comple x cases in the first instance, but in the end they could end up going before the board with the claimant and preparing a brief and presenting that brief on behalf of the claimant. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister explain, how do the worker advisers deal with the medical information? HON. J. COWAN: The worker advisor does have access to the medical information.

The instru ctions which I have given to them, and I think those instructions are contained somewhat within the legislation itself, does in fact provide for them to see the medical file, to review it, to advise the worker if they believe there are any inconsistencies in it by way of indicating that perhaps they should see a specialist in this regard, or perhaps they should see a doctor to look at this particular area and the n have a medical report submitted to the board from that new doctor. 2771

Monday, 16 May, 1983 They do not share the file with the claimant himself. They've been instru cted not to share the file with the claimant himself or herself. They can use the materials in the file in resp ect to a subm ission to the board as long as that subm ission is only given to authori zed persons. By that, I mean persons who are authori zed to see the medical files under the existing legislatation. So that's the way the system should work. That's the instru ctions which I have given to the worker advisers in regard to access to medical files.

They can use it to provide informati on of a general nature, to provid e direction of a general nature, and they can use it in a presentation to the board if, in fact, unauthori zed persons are not seeing the file itself. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm interested. Is the Minister saying that the worker is not entitled to see the medical reports? HON. J. COWAN: That is my instruction to the worker advisers, yes, that the worker does not, as a normal course of action, get to see those reports.

Now, what we want to do over a peri od of time, and I have been involved in discussions with the College of Physi cians and Su rgeons and the di fferent associations in regard to opening up med ical files to the claimants th emselves, so that they don't need to rely upon the worker advisor to give the m direction or advice in regard to the medical file. What we would have in that instance, if we proceed in the way which we may, would be a worker being able to go in and see th eir own file.

Then, of course, it would be a matter of the worker advisor not having any difficulty at all in providing the medical file to the worker once the y had recei ved the nece ssary authori zation from the work er. Now, workers can see their own file by obtaining it from th eir own doctor as it stands now. In other words, a worker can go to a doctor and say, I would like to see my fi le whi ch you su bmi tte d to the Work ers Compensation Board, or the report actually - I shouldn't use it to interc hange with - I would like to see the report which you subm itted to the Workers Compensation Board on my claim.

And the doctor then can give access to the report in that way. MR. G. MERCIER: To use an analogous situation, Mr. Chairman. In a normal claim that is not brought forward by a worker advisor , is the claimant entitled to look at all of the medical information? Mr. Chairman, perhaps I'm bringi ng a new outlook to a particular problem. Can the Minister explain why the worker is not entitled to look at all of the medical information? I raise it, Mr.

Chairman, because it seems to me, as one who has had some experience with a personal injury claim in the normal course throu gh the courts, that there is an obligation on both parties to exchange all of the med ical information. I'm interested to know the rationale for this type of action. HON. J. COWAN: The rati onale is hi stori cal and longstanding. As well, the rationale is something that I have some difficulty, as I think the membe r himself has some difficulty in accepting.

I indicated earlier that I had been reviewing this matter with the College of Physicians and Surgeons, with the Manitoba Medi cal Association and with othe r repre sentati ves of ot he r organi zations who have expressed an interest in access to medical files in the past. I've also had discussions with individ ual claimants who feel the fact that they cannot ge t access to their med ical files prevents them from being able to present the case that would be best suited for their defence. I believe there are a lot of reasons to justify access to the medical files. I think we would agree on most of them.

I also know that, historically , access has been denied not only in thi s province but across the count ry. As of the last number of years, court cases in Bri tish Columbi a and I believe in Quebec have opened the medical files held by the Workers Compensation Board to the claimant. In other words, the courts have come in and said you have no reason to keep thi s information fr om the claimant. So it's not only what I perceive to be your opinion and my opinion, but it is also the opinion of the courts in those two provinces, at least, that workers should have access to their files.

There are a whole number of reasons they should. Firstly , they would want to know if in fact the medical profession or th eir doctor is saying the same thi ng to the m th at the ir doctor is saying to the Work ers Compe nsation Board; in ot he r words, the y have obviously had involvement with th eir doctor. They have discussed the matter with th eir doctor , and in fact th eir doctor has most likely indicated to them that they believed th eir case to be either compensable or not compensable. They would want to make certain that same information was being given to the Workers Compensation Board.

More important ly, they would want to make certain that opinion was being given to the Workers Compensation Board. That's one reason. The second reason is that doctors are not infallible. Sometimes they have opinions, and I underscore and quote that word, "opinions," that may not be shared by another person of the medical profession. When working with those types of concerns, there is room for honest doctors to differ in th eir opinions; it would be difficult to tell which doctor has a corre ct opinion.

So if a worker does not have access to see his or her medical file, they don't really know what opinion that particular doctor has given to the board. Therefore, they don't know if they should go to another specialist or to another doctor. They don't know if they should seek a second or a thi rd or a fourth opinion as the case may be, so they have to build a case around incomplete information. Third ly, that file is th eir prope rty as far as I'm concerned; it belongs to them. It is about their body; it's about the ir medical condition, and there is a general philosophy that says they should have access to it.

There are relati vely few other instances, if any, where an individual would be denied access to those files if they req uested those files. Now, they can always get the files from the doctor , if in fact the doctor permi tted the m to have those files. Sometimes the doctors charge for those files - or charge for those reports, excuse me - and they charge a significant amount of money for them. There was one instance in the paper just the other day where a doctor was charging $300 for a report. Doctors have to make money and they have to do it in a way they know how 2772

Monday, 16 May, 1983 best, but at the same time those same fil es are alre ady at the Workers Compensation Board. So should the claimant have to go outside, to the ir own doctor and pay $300 for them when they could go down and see all the rest of their file, but not be able to see that particular report? In other words, the doctor has already said, I'll give you the report, but it's going to cost you a sum of money which I feel equivalent to the amount of time which I have to put into the process of developing a report - when in fact the report that they really want to see is already there.

So there is an inconsistency there. Now, why is it that the files aren't accessible to the claimant? We are talking only about the medical files. The record should be clear that all the other files are accessible to the claimant, but in fact it is the medical files that aren't acc:essible. They are not accessi ble be cau se at some time in the past Work ers Compe nsation Boards and the medical profession across this country decid ed that they would not be accessible .

I don't know the rationale for that, but I do know the Workers Compensation Board is very old and it might have been what we consider to be today an antiquated philosophy about the possession of those files. Perhaps it was that none of the file was available to the claimant at that time. I don't know; I haven't resear che d the history that carefully to be able to say. If that was the case, perhaps over a period of time other parts of the file opened up and we have the situation now where there is one sect ion of the file which is still inaccessible to the work er.

Whatever the reason is, the fact is that they were inacces sible and that created a diffic ulty. The difficulty is that the doctor would give a report to the Workers Compensation Board with the knowledge that that report was confidential. There fore, the doctor might write things in those reports that he or she would not write into a report normally if they felt the report was going to be made available to the claimant. That's not my the ory; that is the theory of the medical profession whom I have consulted on this matter.

As well, they may have written things in such a way as to misinterpre ted not from a medical perspe ctive, but from a different perspective by the claimant. They may have written something harsh ly, knowing that another doctor would see it and the other doctor would be able to interpre t it corre ctly, but the y would not want a patient to see it if in fact they had written it in that manner. What they would far pre fer to do is have an opportunity to write it in a somewhat different manner, perhaps say the same thing but make it more acceptable to the claimant.

So they gave those files to the Workers Compensation Board on the basis that they would not be shared . When I discu ssed this with the Manitoba Medical Association and with the College of Physicians and Surgeons, they indicated to me that in 90 percent of the cases or more - and it's a gue sst imate as to a percentage - this wouldn't be a problem. The file could be very easily shared with the particular claimant. They also said to me that they would have no objection in the future to all files being open to the claimant.

In other words, on a certain date, you say the files are going to be open to the claimant, and from then on in, given a bit of lead time where you can notify the medical profession that might in fact happen, the doctors would the n begin to write reports in a way that they know would be acceptable if reviewed by the claimant. So there is no proble m in going forward in history in making the files acceptable to the claimant, but that creates a bit of a discrepan cy. As a matter of fact, it cre ates a discrimination.

Those claimants who have medical reports submitte d after the date of that change, if it were to be made, would have full access, and those claimants submitted previous to that date would not have full access. So we discussed that a bit further with the medical prof ession. They said, look, in 90 percent of the cases, it's not going to be a problem. So it's a matter of the claimant going to the doctor and sayi ng, will you write your sig nature on this authorization form giving me access to the medical files, I will take it into the board and I'll look at my medical report that you provide d to the board there.

It doesn't cost anything; it doesn't mean rewriting a whole new report. It doesn't mean the doctor going back and sear ching through his or her considerable files to pull out everything on this individual. It means that individual can go right to the board, hand in a piece of paper and say I would like my medical report, here's the authorization and get it. That's fine. That's le ave two anomalie s existing. The two anomalies existing out of that are: What if the doctor doesn't want to give the report, and what if the doctor is not available to give the report? Let's deal with the second one first.

What if the doctor died, moved or quit practice and didn't want to, you know, interface with the claimant for whatever reason? Then there should be some way for somebody to review that file and to indicate to the board that file should be made available. What if the doctor said I don't want to give that file because I have written things in that file that I don't think you should see.

Well, that breaks down into two particular circumstance s: One is, some thing was written in that file that the doctor doesn't want the claimant to see, because the doctor doesn't want the claimant to see it and there is no justifiable reason other than that. The other is, the doctor wrote something in the file that the doctor doesn't want the claimant to see because it may have a detrime ntal impact on the health of the claimant. In other words, what if the doctor wrote in the file, this patient is suicidal?

I believe that suicide is a result of depression arising out of an injury, which is worker experienced on such and such a date, which has prevented this worker from participating in society in a meaningful way - depression has occurred. You know, they could write off the whole synopsis of what had occurred. In fact, it w