PRELIMINARY JNEDITED TRANSCRIPT ::::OUSE OF ASSEMBLY ·~"OR THE PERIOD ~0:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. TUESDAY, MAY 24, 1977

May 24' 1977. The House met at 10:00 a.m. ~r. S~eaker in the Chair. Tape 3099 ~ -~. SPEA..T(ER: Order, please! The han. Premier ." RH- 1 PREMIER F.D. MOORES: ~r. Speaker, I rise today on a sad note as we often do in this House about the passing of a very prominent Newfoundlander. I move that this han. House record our deepest sympathy at the sad loss to ~ewfoundland of Peter Cashin who passed away Saturday at the age of eighty-seven years. In the passing of Peter Cashin ~ewfoundland has lost a great son. ~r.

Cashin was a man ~ho dearly loved Newfoundland and he was a man who was regarded with affection ~~roughout the Province. He was a dedicated and sincere man. His outstanding abilities and valuable contribution to this Province are r..Jell recognized. Mr. Cashin was motivated by a dee~ sense of public duty. He r.vas one of the breed of ;nen \vho, regardless of the odds, was prepared to stand by his conviction. Born _at Ca-pe Broyle on ~~arch 8, 1890 he \vas the eldest son of the late Sir Hichael and Lady Gertrude ~·faloney Cashin.

He was first elected to the House of Assembly in 1923 to represent the district of Ferry land, a seat >vhich had earlier been held by his father. He also served as a Minister of Finance during the days of Responsible Government. Peter Cashin had · a distinguished ~v2r record. He joined the Newfoundland Regiment in April of 1915 and went overseas as a Corporal. He \vas wounded in France in 1916 and returned to England r,vhere he joined the British ~f.achine Gun Company, eventually rising to the rank of major in the field. His valuable service is well recognized to his beloved Province.

And I would like, Sir, as Premier,to express to his wife Blanche and to the other members of his family, the most sincere condolences of the House. .<\nd I know ~ewfoundlanders every':vhere join me in this very sincere expression of sympathy to one of our best kno~vn and greatest sons. ~1R • SPEA..T{ER: The han. Leader of the Opposition.

May 24' 1977. Tape 3099 R!I - 2 MR. E • ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may, Sir, I would like on behalf of those of us on this side to associate ourselves with the motion which the Premier has moved. Mr. Speaker, as the Premier has said it is a sad duty, one in 1:-1hich this House is too often called to take ~art to join in paying tribute to the men who have served in this Rouse, the men who have served this Province, . so many of them now are dying. I believe with Peter Cashin's passing we now have among us only one man ~vho served in the pre-Confederation Rouse, Phil Lewis, the han. P .J.

Le-.:vis who is hale and hearty. He tvas at the funeral yesterday paying tribute to Peter Cashin with whom, of course, he tv-auld have served as a Cabinet colleague as well as a member of the House. I believe now that the han, P.J. Lewis is the only Newfoundlander left alive. ~. MURPHY: ~'!R. ROBERTS : ~fr. Brown. Oh, sorry. The hf?n. Mr. Brown.- I thank my friend from St. John's Centre (Hr. Murphy) - the han. ~fr. Brown was at the funeral ~.1"ass yesterday as was the gentleman from St. John's Centre re~resenting the government. Sir, Peter Cashin was a man of many oarts.

He was a soldier, an author and a politician. But above all he was a Newfoundlander, a patriot, a man who was fiercely dedicated to this land and to her people. -His whole life's work was a testimony to his beliefs. He was a son of the Southern Shore. His roots were there and no matter how far away his destiny took him he always came home. I am told that just three weeks ago he returned again to Cape Broyle on what turned out to be his last visit home. The Premier has

May 24, 1977 Tape 3100 LB-1. HR. ROBERTS: said he was born the son of a. powerful and a prominent family. But he was a man of the people and a man who knew the people. He worked from one end of Canada to the other. He knew the dignity of toil and he knew the lot of those who toiled for a living. He never forgot them. His ivhole political caree~ was to champion their cause. When the first wax came, Peter Cashin responded as did so many of his fellow Newfoundlanders. His war record was one of gallantry marked by conspicuous bravery.

He served. with his fellow Newfoundlanders in their own regiment, the Royal Newfoundland Regiment. Enlisting as·a private,he rose to commissioned rank and at the end of the war he was a major and was forever thereafter known as the fighting major. His political career, Sir~was legendary. His father,Sir Michael Cashin,was one of the political giants of his time. Peter Cashin became one of the political giants of all time. He first saw election in 1923 in his own native district of Ferry land . He was elected then and re-elected in 1924 and 1928. He carried on the family tradition,Sir, in the Ferryland District.

His father had been elected for 30 years as the member for Ferryland. Peter Cashin made ~mark in politics. He soon entered the Cabinet as a!:-m.ember of the Squires Administration. He was ::inister of Finance, I believe. It was an unhappy partnership as it turned out, one that was doomed to dissolution. It ended ivhen Peter Cashin accused one of his· Cahinet colleagues of forging a minute of council, an event which became a landmark in the politics of the time.

But, Sir, it was during the pre-Confederation years that Peter Cashin wrote his name among the immortals of -Newfoundland life an~ politics.Elected to the National Convention for the District of St. John's West,he quickly assumed the leadership of those who wanted Newfoundland to return to Responsiole Government. I ~ sure that my friend from Twillingate, Sir,- who just as quickly assumed the leadership of those who stood for Conf8deration,was deep~ moved and deeply touched at the news of Peter Cashin's passing and I

May 24, 1977 Tape 3100 LB-2. MR. ROBERTS~ am sure he will speak with conviction and passion as-~-eo what Peter Cashin meant. During those years, Sir, Peter Cashin struck a great blow for free speech. He was proud of t4is,I am told. He struck it in a characteristLcally Cashin way. He was sued for libel by two of the judges of the Suprem~ Court for statements which he made in the National Convention, statements which were broadcast! by V.O.N.F, the government-owned radio __ s;'!_~i_C?nS. :1R.NEARY: I have not reached that ~t~t~~_yet _ but I am getting _,there.

MR.ROBERTS: My friend from LaPoile,if he reaches Peter Cashin's eminence,would have done well. But Peter Cashin defended himself and he was vindicated by a St. John's jury, by a jury of 12 of his peers. He ~vas as proud of that ,I am:_ told ,as a man could be and rightly so. He was Irish by heritage, Sir, and a passionate man by conviction. He fought for his cause,the cause of Respon~ible Government,with all the skill and courage that he could muster. He believed passionately in the rightness of ois cause,and all the eloquence and sincerity that were his to command he used in that battle.

Who will ever forget the Voice of Liberty ~ reaching out night after night on the radio to the homes of his fellow Newfoundlanders? Peter Cashin did not win that fight, Sir. He accepted defeat graciously as the voice of the people. But he set about the task of making the new province the kind of land he wanted,the kind of Newfoundland in which he believed. He was elected in 1949,again for the District of Ferryland. He was re-elected in 19Sl,this time for St. John's West. He served in the House until 1953,when he was appointed director of Civil Defence.

As a member of the House of Assembly and as Leader of the Opposition Peter Cashin was without Peer. All who followed him, Sir, must measure themselves

May 24,1977 MR. ROBERTS: ~IlL MURPHY: Tape 3100 LB- 3 a~ains t his achieve ments. He was Leader of the Opposition . MR . ROBERTS: He remember- Yes, I am told he served as Leader of the Opposition, yes Sir. Mr. Speaker , we remember Pete r Cashin fo r all of these things . But I think, Sir, his supreme achievement transcended any of them . Above all , ~irst and foremost, Peter Cas hin was a Net-1foundlander. His love of this country and her people enfused his every thought and shone through his every word. It stitched throughout t~e fabric of his memo±rs like a golden thread .

He loved this country unashamedly and proudly and completely . He was a patrio t in the noblest sense of that t.+o rd . Yesterday, Sir , at t.~e funeral ~~ass, at the end, the priest called . upon the cong r egatio n to sing the Ode To ~Tewfoundland. Surely that would have been Pete r Cashin ' s last wish to leave this world with the orayer on his lips, "God Guard Thee ~ewfoundland . " It tvas his legacy to us . Let us make it a memorial to him . MR • SPEAKER: Ron . member for LaPoile .

Hay 24, 1977. Tape 3101 RH- 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Sueaker, my task this morning, Sir, is a little more pleasant one, I ho~e~ and I ?resume, Mr. Speaker, that it fits the criteria that we have ;1een following in the House in the last couple of weeks. 'Steve' I want to speak on Peter Cashin. ~-1R. ·-rr:ARY: Are you going to - ~m. :· :·1\LLWOOD : Yes. ~-- ·-v,,-pv • . __ ... 1...!:\.-. Oh! I am sorry.

I will come back to it since the ~on. gentle:::!!an ~•ants to - The hon. member for Twillingate. ~Ap- . ~ • S~lf..<\LLWOOD: The han. member for LaPoile (Hr. :-Jeary) ~•as going -to s~eak to the motion moved by the Pr~ier, seconded by the Leader of tl:-.e Opposition. I ~vould not be happy if this occasion were to pass wit~out my having a word to the sincere expressions that have come from :~2 two hon. leaders of this House today on Peter Cashin. I think that perhaps the hon. member for Burin-Placentia T,.)'est (Ur.

Canning) and I are :~~2 only members of the House today who served in the House - no, t::e: .· .. ttorney-General did; no, he did not - we t";.;o are perhaps the only ::::mbers of the Rouse today who served in the legislature at the saMe : ime that Peter Cashin did. That was in the old Colonial Building dmm on HL . .:::..tiary Road. Peter Cashin never did sit in this _particular Ch~uber in Confederation Building. ~-:e >-Tas, I "tvould say, next only to his father, Sir ~-:!ichael Cashin, the 3trcngest, the most powerful opposition man who ever sat in a ~rewfound.land House of Assembly beginning in 1832.

He >:vas a most eloquent man, ··' :-eal orator. His style of speaking, when it ~,;as not witty, ':.•hen it ':·las not sarcastic, was deeply emotional, not logical, not always reasonable, but deeply emotional and with an amazing capacity to coi~ phrases,and to repeat phrases-from other sources,when applied to his .::::-ier.ds or his opponents. I al1vays felt that Peter Cashin was at he~rt a strong Confederate. He had lived in Canada for many, ~~ny

Hay 24, 1977. Tape 3101 RH- 2 ~1R. SMALU100D : years. He had been a taxpayer in Canada. He had been a voter in Canada. He had taken an active

part in elections in Canada. I do not knot.r for what party, but for some party or other. And I believe that he had great admiration for Canada:. But the great purpose of his life in those years when the ques .tion of the ~ti?n!-~~ c:'~vention came up was ___ _ to get rid of the Commission of Government. He regarded their very presence in Newfoundland as an insult to ~rewfoundland and Newfoundlanders, an insult to the idea of democratic self government. And he devoted hL~self with all his amazing enthusiasm and emotion to the task of getting them out of ~ewfoundland.

Nmv the only alternative he saw at first to getting them out was Responsible Government. There were only two forms of government that he could see, continue under the non- elected appointed commission of government or go back to the system of ~ Resuonsible Government under which the 9eople "tvould elect their mm legislature and the government would always be responsible to that legislature which, of course, is the meaning of the term Responsible Government.

I believe that he regarded my introduction of the subject of Confederation as, not only inconvenient but perilous, dangerous to his awn cause, that the keen opposition of the peo ple to the Commission's system "tvould be diluted by the new issue of Confederation. And it T.vas not necessarily because he was opposed to Confederation as such, but rather the introduction of the issue at that time as constituting a danger to the cause to which he was so passionately devoted himself. I had a many a pri~7ate talk with him during those days of battle.

And we "t-.TOuld meet from time to time quietly, sometimes privately, mostly privately. And I would try to pursuade him that the one way to get a Responsible Government restored to ~ewfoundland would be as a Province of Canada. I said tve would have full Responsible Government. He half felt that. And there were times I felt when he was tempted to join me in the eeusa.;::-

}{__ay 24' 1977. Tape 3102 RH- 1 MR.. SMALUlOOD : the cause for Confederation. And it was not without significance that he and I sat together side by side in the distinguished visitors' ' gallery of the House of Commons at Ottawa to hear the debate by Parliament, by the House of Cornmons,lead by the Right Honourable Louis St. Laurent, then Prime Minister of Canada, and together saw Canada pass the law which from their point of view made us 9 or provided for the making of a Province out of Newfoundland.

T..fuen ,.,e did become a Province of Canada, he sat in the House in opposition to the govenw.ent, but he l-ad to be. I c·dsh I could tell the House of one occasion when he and I vmrked extremely closely together in the most practical fashic .n in an election to ac...~ieve a result that rile hoth desired. "'R. r-TEA..JtY: I think I worked in that election. ~. SMALL~·lOOD: Perhaps the hon. member - MR. ~lEARY: 2 campaigned in that election. 'A'tl _ _._\, .. SMALUlOOD: Yes. I was not going to go so far as to say that it was that ?articular election.

But in all events, we worked closely together on more than one occasion. And I was very proud that I·was able to uursuade Peter Cashin to accept a high position in the public service under my leadership. And he served in that capacity for a number of years. ~e is gone,but he is not gone.

The motto of B;shop ,.,.. ld c 11 h I "Non moritur cuius fama vivit 11 .... • L'~e o .... ege'lw ere ~.;ent~was, · <1hich means_,I 1:-elieve;He is not dead ,.,hose fame liveth:· And Peter Cashin's fame will live and outlive the names of just about everybody in this Chamber today because he ~vas a battler, he <:vas a fighter and al<:vays he ,.,as a battler for ~~ewfoundland, not only in the fields of Flanders, Flanders Fields, but in the Colonial Building, in everything he did and everywhere he went he was a battler for :.J'eTNfoundland.

He have lost, Ne'lvfoundland has lost the active brain and the loyalty and the devotion and the marvellous enthusiasm and emotion of a very

May 24, 1977. Tape 3102 R..'J.I- 2 MR. SMALLWOOD : remarkable Newfoundlander indeed. But his name will live. MR. SPEAKER: Before I recognize the han. gentleman~. it is noted in order therefore that a suitable message of condolence be sent to the survivors of the late ~fujor Cashin. The hon. member for LaPoile ,. ~1R. ~TEARY : Mr. Speaker, as I started to say a few moments ago, Sir, this motion that I "tvould like to make,and some han. gentlemen on the other side could second it or somebody in the Op~osition, I want to move a motion, ~ir, t:!.lat 't.re send a letter of congratulations to St.

Patricks School Girls Glee Club which was awarded the Leslie Bell trophy for the outstanding performance by a choral group at the Canadian ~usic Educators Association which concluded last Wednesday night at the Arts and Culture Centre. It ~11as the first time, Sir, that a Newfoundland choir won the award which included a cash ~ift of some $200~so I am told. The eighty-five girls from St. Patrick's Elementary School were selected the top group of eleven choirs from schools and universities all across Canada which performed at the convention's evening concert last Wednesday evening.

The Glee Club was directed by Sister Brenda Lynch and is well known across Canada having ~erforrned at.the C.~f.E.A. Convention at Ottawa four years ago and has participated in many Kiwanis Music Festivals here in St. John's. So I >vould like for the House, Sir, if somebody would second the motion, to send out a letter of congratulations to the choir for winning this award and for their outstanding musical accomplishments over the last several years. ~. SPEA..T<ER: The han. ~nister of Justice. RON. T.A. HI~~: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of government may I join with the hon. member for LaPoile(Mr.

Neary) in extending to the St. Patrick's Glee Club our very sincere congratulations on this attainment. I was one of the founding members of the ~~usic Festival in this Province, And it has been a source of great satisfaction to see glee clubs,

~·fay 24, 1977. Tape 3102 RH- 3 HR. HICIQ1..-\N: particularly St. Patrick's Glee Club,each year getting stronger and stronger and moving out beyond their provincial attainments and receiving well deserved national recognition. Their director, like

May 24, 1977. Tape 3103 RH- 1 MR. • HI C'K}f.A_l-T : so many of our teaching nuns, has sho~vn a great deal of devotion in training these young Newfoundlanders. And I am sure that all members of this han. House as well as all ~ewfoundlanders are indeed proud of their achievement. ~1R • SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. ~1R. F. ~OHE: '1r. Speaker, on behalf of :ny colleagues I ~v-ould like to join tv-ith other han. :.ne!!lbers in congratulating the St.

Pat's Girls Glee Club on their tremendous achievement and also congratulate the ryarents of the children and the Sisters who helped in their training period. -~d v!e tmuld certainly like to add our congratulations to the other members and be associated with any motion that is moved ·in this House and put forth to the glee club in question. ~Tow before calling Statements by ~~inisters I 1:11ould like to welcome to the House of Assembly on behalf of hon. members the Ambassador of :Torway to Canada v1ho is visiting NeT.vfoundland, his Excellency Knut Hedemann. STATE"!E:'-ITS BY ~IT?HSTERS : ~-~ ..

SPEA."!(EP_: The hon. Minister of Education. HOH. W. HOUSE: i~r. Speaker, during the estimates of the ~epartment of Education it Has stated by me that the - and in the estimates, of course - that the grade ten electoral scholarship would be discontinued this year. Ro~·7ever, because of the lateness of the budget and the estimates and the fact that the schools in the Province had received the standard information governing the scholarship and have made preparation for it, the department has decided that the fifty-tc·70 grade ten electoral scholarships will be again awarded this year.

That can be covered in the present estimates. It is an amount of about $5,200. The remaining scholarships for both grade ten and eleven will be reduced by half as announced during the estimates. And to come

~~ay 24, 1977. Tape 3103 RH- 2 ~{R. HOUSE: along T.Yith that, Hr. Speaker, and a little separate from it, I ~vant to announce on the recrnrrmendations of the Education Leave Committee, I am pleased to announce that the names _of __ the __ tY?O _J;:eachers _ ~ho have been granted sabbatical leave in 1977-78~and the two teachers are ~. Edwin J. Broaders of Port Saunders and ~~adeline ';Theeler of Summerford. These teachers will be attending the university for the whole semester and while on leave, of course, will receive t~e t~vo-thirds of their annual salary. "!r.

Speaker, the committee is made up of the Ne~vfoundland Tea~~ers' Association, the De~artment and the Federation of School Boards. And in making their recommendations they took into account such factors as the certification of the applicants at the present time, and of course, their recent efforts to upgrade and the existing onportunities they have had in the past. I understand that both these nominees were the unanimous choice of the committee. And I think there were about forty-one applicants. Thank you. ~. SPEAKER: ~1R. F. ~OWE: The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Mr.

Sneaker, we welcome indeed the announcement by the minister that the administration has seen fit to reinstate the grade ten electoral scholarships for this year in view of the fact that olans had already been made to award these, Sir. He are disappointed indeed that the administration has not seen fit to continue on with the Responsible Government'~ Centenary Scholarships.

And the only thing I could add to that, Sir, it is such a very small amount of money, something in the order of 59 5, 000 in total - ,.,ell, you double that. ~.Je are dealing •.vith a very small amount of money, Sir, as compared ~vith the total estimates of the Department of Education. And the one question I r.o1ould just like to raise and ask the minister is why fool around and why interfere \vith these electoral scholarshin and the R.esnonsible Government Centenary ScholarshiP i-rhen they represent such a very small amount of money,but it is so very im~ortant to a few students throughout this Province.

And whilst I ~velcome,

May 24, 1977. Tape 3103 RH - 3 ~1R . Rm.JE: and my colleagues ~velcome the a'O!louncement that t~e grade ten elec toral scholarship will be reinstated for this year, I would like to recommend to the minister that he once again go back to his officials and possi~ly Treasury Board witp the possibility of

:t-r..ay 24, 1977 Tape 3104 LB-1. MR. ROWE: r~~ instating all of these scholarships the Responsible Government Centenary Scholarships and the Electoral Scholarships because they do represent a very small amount of money compared to the total estimates of the Department of Education. Sir, before I sit down I would like to, on behalf of my colleagues, as well to congratulate M~~ - Saunders and Mr. Broaders for being awarded, given their sabbatical for this year and wish them all the success in their studies over the coming year. PRESENTING. REPORTS BY STANDING AL'l'D SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: Hon.

Minister of Hunicipal Affairs. MR.DINN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a report of the operation of Corner Brook Housing Corporation and the Financial Statements of the year ending Dec. 31, 1976. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~1R.ROBERTS: A question for the Ninister of Health, Sir, back on the abortion issue. Could the minister tell us,please,whether he has as yet replied to the letter dated I believe May 6, which he received from ~rr. Kevin Breen of the Family Life Council here in St. John's. Has the minister yet replied to that letter 1 please? ~1R..SPEA~ER: Han. Minister.

MR.COLLINS: }rr. Speaker, I am not sure if I replied to the letter or not. MR. ROBERTS: ( In~udib le) HR.COLLINS: Do you ~.vant to answer the question or do you 1vant me to answer it? MR. NOLAN: It is just as well for the galleries to answer it. ~1R. COLLINS: ~rr. Speaker, I T.vill certainly take it under advisement. I believe that I did receive a letter from Hr. Breen and I am pretty sure that it has been anS1:·rered. But without giving an emphatic yes or no I prefer to check it out. MR. ROBERTS: MR.SPEMER: A supplementary. A supplementary.

May 24, 1977 Tape 3104 LB-2. MR.. ROBERTS : ~rr. Sepaker, if the minister is not sure whether he answered the letter or not,could he tell us what he said in his answer.,assuming there was an answer'? The minister does not seem to take it seriously, Sir. I do. This is a group who have a very definite stand on this particular issue.

A group who have written to the minister and complained publicly no~ that in three weeks they have not had an answer and furthermore, Sir, a group who say in their letter, as I understand it, that they find that the minister was not being full and frank- those are my words~not the committees - not being full and frank in answering questions in the House of Assembly with respect to the therapeutic abortions carried out in this province. I believe the minister Is ans't.rer to which they refer was given in respect to questions asked by the gentleman from LaPoile.

The minister· in answering to refresh his memory,said that he was not aware of the reasons for which abortions ~.rere authorized by the abortion ~committee at the St. John 1 s General Hospital. Could the minister tell us what was in his answer, assuming he remembers whether he sent an ans>ver or not? If it is not in his answer, what answer is he going to make to them? ' ~.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I gave the Ron. Leader of the Opposition the undertaking that I would check to see if I did receive the letter and Iseem to recall receiving a let~er. I also seem to recall responding to the letter.

But let me check it out tc make sure that I have responded to it or I have not responded to it. I would not ~.rant to mislead the House. If there is any fault,Hr. Speaker, I might say, if there is anyone finds any fault with the abortion procedures in Newfoundland, it is,according to Mr. LaLonde the Federal Minister of Health,a lot of people do not have access to abortion committees. So the hon. member is going to try and play with this particular issue like he is trying to play politics wit:h other issues,he might contact his so-called confident in Ottawa and see what his stand on it is. MR.

ROBERTS : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, original questioner.

May 24, 1977 Tape 3104 LB - 3 . MR. ROBERTS: Thank you,Mr. Speaker,~<!..~ ~ssume __ l: yi_ll __ allow _____ .. the s.am.e latitude as the minister. Cou:ld the minister tell us then whether in his views he feels more abortion committees set up in this province? MR.SPEAKER: Ron. member for LaPoile. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister undertake to get for the Hous .e, Sir, the number of abortions performed in age groups, of different age groups, the technique that was used in these abortions,and if any research was done to see if any damage w2s done to the ':emales who had these abortions?

How far the pregnancy was advanced and _ so forth before the abortions 'ivere made to see if any damage had to be repaired later on by specialists ·. resulting from these abortions? Would the minister undertake to get that information for the House? MR. SPEAKER: A further- s upplementary.

~_,_ay 24, 1977. MR.. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: ~. ROBERTS: Tape 3105 RH- 1 ~r. Speaker, may I ask a further supplementary. A supplementary. Would the minister undertake to lay upon the table of the Eouse when he is searching his memory~because I know the answer to this letter - will he undertake to ~ay upon the table of the House any communications which he has had with any of the hospital boards in this Province in the last, let us say,the last twelve months ':Yi.th respect to abortions? He tells us that ~t!r.

LaLonde allegedly feels that if there is a problem it rests ':vith the fact that not enough hospitals are providing abortions. Can the minister tell us then whether he agrees with that, whether he disagrees? And ~-Tould he tell us <:·rhat, as I say, what communications he has had with the hospital boards with respect to abortions? 'fR. SPEAKER: '·'!R. COLLI~1 S: ~~. SPFAKER: The han. minister. I wi 11 ta ke that under advisement, i1r • Speaker. Any han. member rising on a supplementary? The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. RO't<.TE: ~tr. Speaker, I have a question for the han. the Premier.

Sir, in view of the warm-weather that we experienced over the weekend, this uncommonly beautiful hot Summer day, I wonder if the Premier's political temperature has risen to the height that he is now willing to announce the date of the byelections in Ferryland and St. John's ~-l est? ~. SPEA.l(ER: The han. Premier. PRE ·H ER ~~OOP..ES: '·!r. Speaker, tb.is is certainly not an uncommonly beautiful day in this Province. We have good 'lveather in this Province and it is only the pessimists in the Province who think that we have a lot of bad weather. The mood is always good. The t~perature is going up.

And I would think, Sir, that in due course the flmvers will bloom and byelections will be held. ~!R. Rm.J"E: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker.

May 24 t 1977 • Tape 3105 RH- 2 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~. ROWE: Would the Premier indicate, Sir, whether or not the elections rN.ill be announced before or after the Summer Games? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER ~mORES: Mr. Spe~ker, with the Opposition as the Opposition it may be one of the events. ~. SPEAKER: Tne han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ~,.rr. Speaker, I would like to ask the ~Unister of Tourism, Sir, if the minister ~rould bring the House up to date on activities in the provincial parks over the ~ay 24th weekend involving moronic drunken individuals and groups?

Could the minister tell the House just what has happened over the weekend? ~1R.. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Tourism. HON. T. HICIC1<'Y: I do not have the details, ~·1r. Speaker. I am Haiting for a report. !Vhen I have it I ~v-ill make a statement on it. :ffi.. ~TEARY: A supplementary question to the Hinister of Justice. :m.

SPR~R: A supplementary question. ~. ~~Y: Would the Minister of Justice indicate to the House that because of the takeover of some of our provincial parks by ~oronic drunken individuals and groups, could the m~nister tell the House if the minister is going to set uo a special force to police the parks during the Summer before their complete control is taken over by these individuals and these gr~ups? ~. SPEAKER: '-1p_, HIC~AN: The hon. ~inister of Justice. ~r.

Speaker, there has been no indication and there has never been an indication that young ~ewfoundlanders are going to take over complete control of the par!c.s. If there are any breaches of the law in any of the rark.s, either the federal park or the provincial parks. then these breaches of the laH will be dealt ':-Tith by t~e nolice. But let us not condemn every young person in ~ewfoundland for an incident \·lhich allegedly occurred in a particular provincial nark or the federal oar~<: today. ~1y understanding is, - not an understanding,

Tape 3105 RR- 3 I know that during the park season that the R.C.~.P. are particularly alert to law enforcement in these areas. ~. ~TEARY: A supplementary question, ~7. Spea..l<.er. ~. SPE.A..KER: A supplementary, the original q_uestioner. ~. NKA.P.Y: T~e minister, of course, ~r. Speaker, has twisted and turned - we are not accusing eve~] young person, nobody made that insinuation - ~~.

HICICi.~l: \·Jell then,why would. you want a special - :-~.. :TEARY: All we are askin3 the minister is if measures will ~e tal:en, ste-ps ~-Jill be taken to protect t~e ordinary person and their family when they are out trying to enjoy the facilities of the parks and if the minister intends to have the parks policed. because the R.C .H.P. have great di£ficulty,especially on busy cveekend.s, because t~e force is tied up with men off duty and so forth, very great difficulty in enforcing and responding to comnlaints from the parks as they did t!:J.is weekend.

And they have no facilities to take the people into custody and transport them to jails and so forth. And they have to be called back off duty which takes a considerable period of time. Is the minister aware of all this and if so what is the minister going to do about it? ~-. HI C~1.:\N: Yes. ~·1R. SPEAKER.: The han. ~inister of Justice. ~. Speaker, last Summer we had. one or two incidents in parks in ~ewfoundland ,.,here there were breaches of the la~v, one on the East Coast and one on the West Coast, two for the ''hole year.

And in both incidents I understand charges ~..rere laid by the R..C.H.P. and dealt with very effectively by the courts. And if there are cny breaches of the law in any of our '?arks this Summer they too 1;v-ill be dealt with and dealt r.vith effectively by the R.C.~~.P. HR. NOLAN: ~1r. Spea..l<.er, a supplementary. ~fR. SP~~R: A supplementary, the han. member for Conception 3ay South.

May 24 , 19 77 • Tape 3106 RH- 1 MR. • NOLA1'1 : Hr. Speaker, in reference to the rowdyism, d::n:k~nis~ or whatever is referred to in the parks, I am wondering if the :linister of Justice has any records that he could table in the House in connection "rith disturbances of the types referred to in the last two or three years in the provincial park or the federal parks for that matter? And also, is the minister aware that people were driven from the parks last year because of the rowdyism of certain individuals?

And what is the minister now prepared to do to assure the people of this Province who spend good noney for a simple •v-eekend that he is willing to protect them? ~ever mind ;;-1hether the menace is local or foreign. wnat is he prepared to do? ~. SPEAKER: ~ffi.. HIC!Of . .AN: The hon. Minister of Justice ~. Speaker, I will repeat,and if I aa incorrect in what I say, the han. ~nister of Tourism will correct me, that last year there were instances for the whole season in the parks of ~ewfoundland that required - Get out of here. ~. ~TOLAN: Ah!

Go away boy! ~-· HICR}fAN: You know, the allegation that ?eople were driven from the parks. \That are T..J'e trying to do "tvith ~Tewfoundlanders? If there are any breaches of the la-.:v- the people in the parl~s get the same kind of protection as Newfoundlanders eve~Nhere and they will get them here, and they will get them here. XR. ~TOLAN: they get. :m. HICI01'..A.~: God help them there if that is the kind of protection And that is why we escape a lot of the rowdyism tnat other jurisdictions in ~orth America have to encounter. MR. NE~~Y: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. YR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. YR. ~TEARY: Is the hon. ninister aware that anart frOttl one cartaker maybe, possibly bWo during certain hours of the day,that there is no

May 24, 1977. Tape 3106 RH - 2 MR. NEARY: protection for the ordinary person in these parks none at all? And it takes hours sometimes to get the police to respond. The Newfoundland Constabulary has no jurisdiction outside t~e city. ~r. Speaker, I know for a fact that R.C .!'!.P. !:lad to be called back on duty on Saturday night, had to be called back- ~~. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, nlease! ~R. HICKEY: ~r. Speaker, ~1R. SPEAKER : If the han. gentleman will wait for a ~oment.

I have to call to the attention of hon. gentlemen,and not only the last hon. gentleT-an who asked a question, actually this, I think, tendency has been shared the past fe~v days by a number of han. members and that is the length of questions and ... ' . , . ... ne ~nc .... us~on therein of argument, expressions of opinion, unnecessary material. So I draw t~is out to all hon. members in terms of questions and the same general rule applies in terms of ansc-7ers as well.

And I think the basic philosophy behind that is that if questions are too long and answ-ers are too long, then obviously there \vill be much fewer questions and much fewer subjects covered. I apologize for the length o£ the question, Your Honour, and I would like to just - I beg your pardon? AN RON. ?-~ER: (Inaudible.) ~fR. ~TEARY : No, I am not finished with the question yet. I am asking the ~inister of Justice - You do not want the facts. Yes, I do want the facts. ~'ffi.. HICY..EY: No, you do not. I probably have more facts than the han. gentl~~an has right no~v. But I ~vould like to ask - Order, please!

Carry on the ouestion, but there should be no further interference. Now the hon. member is recognized for his question.

May 24, 1977. Tape 3106 P-H- 3 ~. NEARY: I ~vant to ask the hen. Hinister of Justice, Sir, if there is any time lag, any delay in the law enforcement officers, in this case the R.C.~1.P. who have the jurisdiction outside St. John's, if there is any delay, not through any fault of the R.C.M.P. but because it is a busy weekend, the number of peo?le on duty and so forth, people off, is there any delay in getting . the R.C.~.P. to respond to these requests to come in and check the parks when they have complaints? ~'ffi. • SPEAKER: '-1R. RICF2WT: The hon. ~inister of Justice.

I will check on the res9onse time of the R.C~~.P. to any complaint that they received over the weekend. MR. SPEAKER: :·1R. HOODR01<7: ~-fF.. SPEA..rzER: right - no. The hon. member for Bay of Islands, a supplementary. A question, ~fr. Speaker. Does the han. gentlema..J. have a supplementary to my The hon. nember for Bay of Islands. ~. I.JOODRm.J: I would like to ask the ~{inister of Forestry and Agriculture a question, ~r. Speaker.

Much concern is felt over the water supply for the city of Corn_er Brook, if the proposed sprayin~ for the spruce budwonn is carried out so near the ~va ter supply. v7ould the minister assure the House that there is no danger from the spray? ~nd if there is a danger, why not go further inland? The hen. ~1inister of Forestry and Agriculture. '-fR. ~AY~ARD: ~~.

Speaker, I have assured the city of Corner Brook and the other groups \·7ho have aPproached me in this oarticular regard that the exper~.ental spray programme will be carried out in such a manner that no chemicals will be released any closer than four miles to the water supply. I might point out that the chemicals that are being used in the Corner :Srock area, which is matacil, mainly has been nroven by environment control oeonle that if

May 24, 1977 Tape 3107 LB-1. MR. MAYNARD: The spray was done directly over the water supply, ~h~ water supply would not be contaminated to a standard that is not acceptable as per the Canadian standards. However, because of the strong reservations expressed by the people in Corner Brook we have said that the spraying will not be carried out within four miles of the water supply and the coordinates have been plotted out for the aircraft on that basis. ~.SPEAKER: A supplementary. Han. member Winsor -Buchans. l-1R. FLIGHT: Hr.

Speaker, proof that the Opposition cooperates with the government is in the fact that I defer that question to the han. member for Bay of Islands because I realize it it "' is great concern there. But to the minister, Sir, it has been established over the past ':veekend that the spraying •.vill indeed be within one-quarter of a mile of the Corner Brook water supply, the head water _ that is feeding the Corner Brook \vater supply.

In view of t!lis, was the minister prepared to reconsider spraying in that area and consider the possibility that spray will eventually,whether it is chemical or bacteria~will eventually end up in the Corner Brook water supply? It is causing great concern in Corner Brook and I think the only solution would be to reconsider that particular area. MR. SPEAKER: Han. Minister for Agriculture. ~. I-1AYNARD: ~1r. Speaker, whatever information was received over the weekend I do not know r,.;hat the source of it T.vas.

But I will say now1 and I will repeat it and repeat it continuously from now on that the spraying will not be carried out closer than four miles to the Corner Brook or Curling water supply If any coordinates have been given to any one that contradicts that and the··coordinates have been changed obviously the person who has been giving the coordinates does not have the up to date ~nformation.

May 24, 1977 Tape 3107 LB-2. MR. SPEAKER: Hon.~ember for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR.RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell the House ~.;rhether he has received any report yet from the Advisory Council on Occupational Health and Safety and what is exactly is happening to the hearings of that council? MR.SPEAKER: Han. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, ~rr. Speaker, I have received two reports of the meetings they had. I have not had an actual report on the items that they are discussing under the terms of reference.

They are obviously doing some research in respect to certain items that have been referred to them. Other items of course which followed in the ambit of the terms of reference have also given an indication to them that the government would await the recommendations from this committee since of the committee six members were elected from the various industries across the province. Six members were elected from the various unions across the province to represent hopefully all aspects of labour and management in the province.

As well I have appointed a few iceberg people 1 mostly from the university ivho have been involved in that, under the chairmanship of Dr. Leslie Harris. As I say,I have had no report as such although I have had reports of the meetings. ~1R.SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~1R. RIDEOu'"T: I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not it is part and package of the terms of reference of this committee to travel around the province to the various industrial centres to hold hearings and so on on the subject of occupational health and safety? ~-fR.SPEAKER: Ron. minister. HR. ROUSSEAU: ~1r.

Speaker, of course the committee., now the Interim Advisory Committee~has anything they want to do to advise the minister on occupational health and safety,which

MaY 24, 1977 Tape 3107 LB-3. MR.. ROUSSEAU: this government feels to be a very importa~t matter. · I am sure han. members across the House feel that, yes, and I have made an undertaking obviously that we are going to await the recommendations from the committee. I know right now the committee is looking at certain aspects. For ~xample: The right of a man to refuse to work in what he considers to be an unsafe situation, the use of full time labour safety committees and other aspects of that are being considered.

But obviously of course the committee wants to research other prov inces and I would think also is not incumbent on the minister or government to tell the committee how to recommend to _ t~em. I would assume that hearings would be held and I would also assume that the committee would be open at any time for any individual group as we have across this province in the hon. member's district and in my own district and in some districts in southern Newfoundland where there is a real concern now on the part of the people they would certainly be open to hearings.

Certainly I hope to consult these people before moves are made in areas that I have just mentioned and many other areas that are available to them. MR.RIDEOUT: A supplementary Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~ffi.RIDEOUT: ~. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not any allotted time span has been given this committee to carry out their work which they have been set up?

I ask that in this light.,wondering whether or not ~vhen the government is going to get around to appointing a permanent advisory committee on occupational health and safety because I think it is certainly a necessary thing to have.

May 24, 1977 Tape 3108 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: In broad terms, and you know, you hate to putthis on the record, this Committee really was an attempt to get the concept of an Occupational Health and Safety Committee off the ground, and generally the terms of reference have been one year, and that is the only term for which Dr. Leslie Harris has accepted the position~to get the thing off the ground. But while they are doing that it should not be misinterpreted that they are only forming the terms of reference in which they operate.

They ~re also at specific items, two of which I mentioned, many others involved in Occupational Health and Safety. So this Committee · really,towards the end of this year,would have to look at, now a permanent advisory committee in whatever form is recommended by the Committee~as well as this interim committee~to look at various aspects of occupational health and safety. And when these recommendations are made, of course, to the minister they will be brought before government for consideration. MR. RIDEOUT: MR. SPEAKER: MR.. RIDEOUT : MR. SPEAKER: An excellent minister to ask questions to. A supplementary .

An excellent minister to ask questions to. The han. member for LaPoile, a supplementary, and then the hen. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. minister if incorporated in the terms of reference would be the provision for the advisory group to make recommendations as to the moral,legal and financial responsibility on the part of the company,because everybody seems to want the government to pave the road in Baie Verte,for instance, when I believe the company shculd be participating in the paving of this road; they are the ones who are taking the profits out and who created the nuisance and the health hazard.

Is there any provision for the advisory committee to make recommendations or report as to the responsibility of the people who create the health hazards? You know, if there are any financial obligation on their part to pave roads~for instance,that we are now hearing so much about in the Baie Verte area?

May 24, 1977 Mr. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: Tape 3108 PK - 2 The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpov;er · Mr. speaker, I think, is a question, you know~ i -t --:ts a philosophlca T question and a very deep question the hon. member asked. MR. NEARY: And a very good question. MR. ROUSSEAU : A very good question. I. will not tell him that. I think the Committee has to learn to walk before it runs and there are certain basic fundamentals that must be formulated before, and perhaps later on in its deliperations it may or may not. · The one thing the minister is not going to do is- the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) was at one time a minister, and when you appoint an advisory committee you do not tell them what to tell you. They have broad terms of reference. MR. NEARY: But you give them broad guidelines. MR. ROUSSEAU : They have very broad guidelines. They have six members,as I say, elected from Labour. They have six . members elected from industry. Hopefully it covers the basic industries and the basic labour movements across the Province. And I am cer~ain that their concern will be shared. ~~d i any movement that they think should be made in any specific direction . they will certainly recommend.

But in the meantime I think that the committee is functioning and drawing up its own mechanics as to its operation, and looking at the, I guess, more basic points at this point in time and also the question of consolidation of all existing health and safety legislation under one division or under one department of government. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. ~..R. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to return to the Premier on the subject of the by-elections in view of his wit and humour in indicating ~~at it may be one of the events held at the Summer Garnes.

Is the Premier serious that the by-elections may be held during the Summer Games? And if so, AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

May 24, 1977 Tape 3108 PK - 3 MR. ROWE: I am not finished the question, Mr. Speaker. PREMIER MOORES: Only if the member of the Opposition is, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, ___ I am not finished the question yet. PREMIER MOORES : Go on. MR. ROWE: I was wondering if the Premier could indicate whether he thinks by-elections or any elections in this Provirloe are sports activities or serious business in view of the statements that he made? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PPREMIER MOORES: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not think they are sports activities as such.

I think it has been facetiously referred to as events on occasions. I think it is a very serious matter. And I am glad that the member for Trinity­ Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) is so lighthearted and humorous this morning, but I am glad to see he is as serious as well, but I am wondering if he is talking on behalf of the Opposition or just parts of the Opposition,who may not be in the Opposition at the present time. MR. ROWE: The Premier is - MR. SPEAKER: The original questioner, I believe, has a supplementary. MR. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER~ No.I am asking the han. gentleman does he have a supplementary? MR. ROWE: Yes,I have a supplementary answer, Mr. Speaker. I am speaking on behalf of the official Opposition. PREMIER MOORES:· (Inaudible) SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman for Windsor-Buchans has a suppl~'nentary. MR. FLIGHT: Would the Premier confirm or deny to the House that the rumour has it that the Premier cannot find a candidate

May J4, 1977 Tape 3108 PK - 4 Mr. Flight: to run in St. John's West? Could the Premier confirm that, please? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I am sure when the time comes we will have a candidate. Any rumour to that effect that we cannot find a candidate could or could not be true. We have not really looked very hard as yet,and when we do I am sure he will be the right person, Sir. There will be people showing their inclination I understand :today as tow~o~ would be the next member of the House of Assembly will be from St. John's West and from Ferryland.

But I think, Sir, when the time comes we will have a candidate, yes. MR. NE'ARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE'AKER: A supplementary~ then the hon. gentleman for Conception Bay South.

May 24, 1977 Tape, 3109 JM - 1 1':1R • SPEAKER : the hon. gentleman for Conception Bay South. 1':1R • NEARY : Would the hon. the Premier tell us if it will be broadcaster Bob Lewis, Bob Cole or Mr. Carl Sterrett of VOCM's Hot ' - -- Line or Open Line? Which one of the three does the Premier favour? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier • PREMIER MOORES: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker, but as the Minister of Justice just said,if they are under the PC banners I am sure all of them are winners. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Yes, a question for the Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker.

During the discussion on his estimates I asked a question.referring to a study done on communications involving his department, the police and so on following the tragic fire in the Goulds. Now the minister at that time indicated that he would take a look at the situation. I know there are at least four or five copies of that study going about. I now ask the minister again, is he going to table a copy of that report on communications and when? MR. ROBERTS: In the age of Xerox nothing is secret. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. ROBERTS: No answer. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question, Sir, talking about the by-elections, my question is for the Minister of the Environment and Consumer Affairs about the mystery slime not in St. John's West but in Placentia Bay. Has the minister undertaken to find out"- or the officials of the minister's department to find out about this mystery slime that is coating the nets of the fishermen in Placentia Bay? The minister does not seem to know what I am talking about. MR. MURPHY: You are talking about slime. I mean,you must - MR. NEARY: Yes, well the minister understands that.

If there is a man in the House more qualified to know about slime it would be the han. gentleman but, Sir, we are talking about slime in Placentia Bay. It is clogging up the fishermen's nets in Placentia Bay. Has the minister launched an investigation into this of any kind?

May 24, 1977 Tape 3109 JM- 2 MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Environment and Consumer Affairs. MR. MURPHY: I do not know, Mr. Speaker. I will draw it to the minister's attention. Quite frankly if Mr. Know All would give me the particulars I_wo~ld certainly get my officials to check. I would say, and I am not_passing the buck, but it would be a Federal responsibility. But I will certainly check with the office immediately for the hon. member and get right back and perhaps arrange transportation over so as he could see the head man and get all the particulars right there and then. MR. NEARY: I would be glad, Mr.

Speaker, to supply the hon. gentleman with the information which the hon. gentleman requires. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. Is the hon. gentleman asking for a supplementary? MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Did I understand the hon. gentleman to say that this could be a Federal matter and that the hon. gentleman has not undertaken to look into this matter? Has the hon. gentleman heard about it at all or ~s it something new to the hon. gentleman?

It has been going on now for a week or so in Placentia Bay; the fishermen had to take their nets in because of this mysterious slime that is floating around the bay. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Environment and Consumer Affairs. MR. MURPHY: The hon. minister does not want to plead anything, Sir, but he has not been too well since last Wednesday or so and I had more slime in myself possibly than I think in Placentia Bay so I got clear of most of it. But I will certainly check. In Placentia Bay, what area? MR. NEARY: I do not know. I presume it is in the Southern Harbour area. MR. MURPHY: In Placentia Bay.

It is Southern Harbour. Well I will check immediately. MR. NEARY: It is in that area -somewhere. MR. MURPHY: Okay. In that area somewhere in Placentia Bay, out that way.

May 24, 1977 Tape 3109 JM- 3 MR. NEARY: Yes, down near Little Harbour East, Southern Harbour, all in that area, general area. Come by Chance, Long Harbour in that general vacinity. MR. MURPHY: Okay, we will check on that .. MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: A question, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Health. I am wondering if t .he minister is in a position to table the suicide rates in this Province for the last year or two.

In fact,would he be good enough to table the suicide rates as he understands them in this Province,say,since the year 1971 and could he then give us a breakdown on how it has increased since he and his administration came to office. Is he prepared to do that? MR. NEARY: MR. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: If we get there the next election we will - Come on~stand up you big old - Order please! The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I wonder, Sir, if .the hon.

Minister of Industrial Development, the gentleman who represents the hon. the Premier with the golden padlock"lwould. tell us about Atlantic Designc Homes in Stephenville and also~while the minister is on his feet because we do not have much time left during the Question Period, to tell us how big a layoff they are going to have in Baie Verte, the cause of the layoff? Are they permanent layoffs or will they be recalled? Will they be the first to be recalled when the company starts rehiring? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Industrial Development. MR.

LUNDRIGAN: In answer to the questions, maybe I should take the rest of the morning and give a detailed answer. Mr. Speaker, Atlantic Design Homes have started early this year 1977, about two months earlier than usual. So what we have heard of Stephenville is an indication that they will have a premature close of the plant.

May 24,1977 Tape 3110 AH-1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: As_ the hon. member must be a1:~are and members of the legislature "' . the Atlantic Design Homes normally starts up in about June and runs through until about October • __ I~ _ _ is a very short season, a five or six month season. This year they have been negotiating with the ~ewfoundland and Labrador Housing to avail of one hundred housing units for construction with the anticipation of getting ~hat work - they started work early, two months early, so ~~hat they have indicated now publicly.,! understand, they will be closing early unless they can get this type of work.

Now, Mr. Speaker, discussions are still ongoing with the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and the federal CMRC people to try and get the contract in place which would allow them to carry on until the Fall of this year. There are about thirty or forty jobs involved if they get the work, there are one hundred housing units, there is $3 million worth of work, the problem has been the design - the new design that was contemplated for the housing units that are part of my colleague•s, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing department.

Now I understand that today officials from the company,Atlantic Design Homes,will be in St. John's for a meeting around one o'clock with the minister and some people and it is hoped that that particular contract can still be awarded. It is a unique type of endeavour because I believe, f-ir. Speaker, the problem of not having tenders called has caused some problems~plus the design problems as well.

So I am not as pessimistic as the hon. member about Atlantic Design Homes, They · will go through their normal work yea~:, hopefully,if they can have the matter put to bed regarding the special contract ~.;hich is above their normal work, they will extend their season, p~us there is other work,W~ have worked with them in trying to design component parts of - component housing parts which will find their way into the market, they have started to break into the market for - what is that thing they use in education, the han. Minister of Education?

May 24,1977 Tape 3110 AH-2 MR. HOUSE: The portable classroom. MR. LUNDRIGAN: The portable classroom,. They have not broken in as heav!ly, they have had big competition from Alberta Trail~r Company with respect to that particular type of unit, We feel they should move heavily into the portable classroom area and we also understand that they are negotiating internationally for some types of work that can extend their season. So Atlantic Design Homes started early, hopefully will not finish.We will have an expanded season if we can put to bed the matters relating to the minister's department. MR.

NEARY: What about the layoffs at Baie Verte? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Baie Verte, Mr. Speaker, was a different type of problem and it is a problem having to do with what you might call a structural unemployment problem~and the unions are negotiating with the company right now, which does not ~ directly come under our jurisdiction;and if there is anything we can do in working with the company and the union to lessen the impact of new shipping methods we will certainly · ··b7 quite willing to work towards this. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.. HICKMAN : Motion 8.

Motion,the han. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Mortgage Brokers Act." (Bill ~o. 40), carried. On motiontBill No. 40, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN : Motion 9. Motion, the han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act." (Bill No. 47), carried. On motion, Bill No. 47, read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.. HICKMAN: Motion 10.

Motion, the han. the Minister of Social Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Adoption Of Children Act, 1972." (Bill No. 61), carried.

May 24, 1977 Tape 3110 AH- 3 On motion Bill No. _61, read a first time ordered read a second time, on tomorrow. On motion that the . House resolve · itself into a Commi.ttee. of the Whole House, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHA!IU(..AN: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Order, please! For the information

May 24, 1977. Tape 3111 RH- 1 UR. CHAIRMAN : of the committee we have one hour and five minutes remaining under this heading, page 119, heading 1901. Shall 1901-01 carry? The han. member for Mount Pearl. MR.. WINDSOR: Now, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to take a couple of moments to get on to my favorite topic .and a few other related topics. We have had some mention, of course, of the Henley Report on the St. John's Urban Regional Study and the concept of regional government,expanded city,and this sort of thing. I am not going to dwell too long on the aspect of regional government.

I think all the municipalities in the area have had a number now of meetings. And the meetings and representations that have been made to the minister and to the department have been fairly clearly in agreement that regional government is essential to this area. The main question that remains is the form of regional government to adopt, how to structure it, should they be elected artd should they be appointed and so ~orth.

The main point I want to make here this merning is that because of the Bay Bulls regional water supply system of course it is essential that some form of regional structure be adopted to manage and operate that new system, tremendously expensive, complicated, technical system. I think the minister has indicated that he intends to initiate some form of regional government, perhaps just the basis on which the ultimate form will be built. I compliment the minister on that. I think it is perhaps the best that could be dore under the present circumstances.

It is impossible, I think, to - mavbe not impossible but certainly I think impractical and probably unwise to implement a complete regional government at this time. There are a number of auestions and a number of decisions to be made. And I think they should be thought through carefully. And so it ~v-ould appear that prior to July 1st when this regional •.Jater supply system comes on stream, we should have some form of regional control.

May 24, 1977. Tape 3111 RR- 2 MR.. WINDSOR: Not only with water supply, Sir, but we have, of course, increasingly regionalized,or increasingly we are regionalizing sewerage disposal systems. The minister has in his estimates here, and I may as well re-i"er- to them because it is doubtful that we will get down through all the headings, but I think there is an item here of $750,000 - for Waterford Valley trunk sewer. That, Sir, is absolutely essential. It may appear to be an extremely expensive sewer system,and so it is really.

In fact, Sir, it is som.ewhat over-designed at the moment for the simple reason that the corridor through the Waterford \Talley is very limited. There is only room, I believe, for one more pipe to go down through there. So we could perhaps get away with a smaller system for the next ten or twenty years but it woUld then be almost impossible to upgrade it. So it is imperative to design a system that would handle all future development in the Waterford ~alley area and anything that could be predicted to flow in through it. And again I compliment the minister on initiating this and, af course, the St.

John's Regional 1<7ater and Sewer Board have been 1:o10rking on it. That is critical. That sewer is critical, Sir, to permit expansion and to continue development of the Donovan's Industrial Park. It includes also a Mount Pearl by-pass sewer ~vhich takes the industrial sewerage from Donovan's Industrial Park past down to Mount Pearl. At the moment it flows through the Mount Pearl system and as a result you are getting overloading of the MOunt Pearl system. So I am very happy to see that coming in the minister's estimates.

Now, Sir, I do not want to deal at length on the question of boundaries in the proposed regional government. This misnomer we hear, the super city, I do not think that is true. But I would like to -deal for a moment with some of the arguments that have been put forth

May 24, 1977 Tape No. 3112 EC -1 MR. wniDSOR: for and against it, particularly, of course, as it relates to the Mount Pearl area. The reason ! am concerned about that, Sir, is that in November ·we do have municipal elections coming up, and the minister has indicated he will have some form of regional government, but it is unlikely that, perhaps, any new communities will be incorporated, or any actual municipal boundaries will have changed by then. · MY concern is for the Newtown area, where we have approaching 3,000 people, who are, at the moment, gove~~d, so to speak, by the Metropolitan Area Board.

I would like, ' to think that by November 1st.- these people would have some form of municipal council . -so they could vote in that election. Otherwise, they may have to wait for five years, unless the minister should see fit to call some form of a by-election, so to speak, and that is, of course, within his jurisdiction, his authority. But - whether or not, Sir, the decision is finally made to - · - make Mount Pearl and Newt~wn, Kilbride, Donovans area ·all of that part of the City of St. John's, I do not think, really, it would matter · if the Mount Pearl town boundary was extended to include the Newtown area.

I think·-if Mount Pearl becomes part of St. John's, then : so will Newtown, and vice versa. If Newtown becomes part of St. John's, I think it would be prudent, as welr then, to make Mount Pearl a part of the City, and I would be one of the first to advocate that. However, at the moment . . the general consensus, certainly in the Town of Mount Pearl, is very clear, although I understand there will be a circular sent around very shortly. But the reaction that we have had has been very clear, that the people of Mount Pearl t.rish to remain as a separate entity.

And the feedback that I am getting from the committees in Newtown, who have investigated the three alternatives that were left open to them, namely, to join with the City of St.

John's, to amalgamate with the Town of Mount Pearl, or to perhaps, form a separate community on their own - there were three committees set up and each of these have investigated these possibilities - and I have met with them, and the indication I am getting from them now · is that the committee members, at least, are convinced that the best alternative for the people of Newtown is to amalgamate ~Yith the Town of Mount Pearl, although I can not say that in

May 24, 1977 Tape No. 3112 EC - 2 MR. WTIIDSOR: any official capacity ·- because they have not yet brought their three committees together for a joint report to a general meeting of the residents. But that would appear to be the direction they would wish to go. Sir, I am sure all that will sort itself out, in time. There are a number of statements being made - have been made in the past, almost daily, that concern me, Sir. I hear the term, parasitic communities. That really gets me going. I would like to quote here an

article from the February 5th Evening Telegram, an editorial by Mr. Collins. Re says, and I am just quoting sections, but, quote "Nearby communities ~vhich depend so heavily on St. John's facilities and services to survive" and he uses the term,"parasitic villages~• and "facilities and services they now get for nothing. No wonder they can enjoy such low tax rates in their own communities. We are the milk cow and they are sucking away for free." Now, Sir, that is utter humbug. I speak, primarily, for the Town of Mount Pearl on this.

I do not wish to debate these statements as they might apply to Wedgewood Park, or other communities, although I think they are in much the same position. Sir, what are these services that we are getting for nothing - I would like to know. AN RON. MEMBER: (inaudible) MR. WINDSOR! Yes, that is about it. Perhaps, maybe, the other way around. Water supply, Sir. The Town of Mount Pearl does, in­ deed, receive water from the City of St. John's. The City of St. John's, in 1959 .. I believe it was, installed a 1.6 inch water main from Waterford Bridge Road, or by the Waterford '.

Hospital/Bowring Park area, to the Town of Mount Pearl, via Tonsail Road. $600,000 · . .o1as made available by the Provincial Government to the City of St. John's · to do that. And in so doing, the City, of course, opened up development in all the Brookfield Estates and the Cowan Heights area - all that west end of the city, which has been, no doubt, most lucrative to them, very beneficial to them. So, that was no great gift from the City. It was

May 24, 1977 Tape No~ 3ll2 EC - 3 MR. WINDSOR: done by the· Provincial Government. The Town of ~~unt Pearl, Sir, buys water from the City of St. John's. We had great controversies a year or so ago, at least, that Mount Pearl was not paying for its water. That, Sir, is a lot of nonsense- ~ well. The City of St. John's, Sir, as I said - I think it was 19 59 th.e agree~nt was made

May 24, 1977 Tape 3113 MR. WINDSOR: I think it was actually 1961 the agreement was signed at 17 mil.s:.__.or 17 cents per thousand gallons. Now, Sir, that was a ten-year agreement which was negotiable every ten years, and after the ten-year period, the Town of Mount Pearl wrote the City of St. John's and said, 'Would ~ou like to re-negotiate our contract? It has expired. ' If I recall correctly - I do not have the exact figures here- I think it was three or four•times the Town wrote the City of St.

John's, and I think only on one occasion they received some sort of an acknowledgment saying, 'When we have time we will get around to having a meeting with you.' So, the City then, unilaterally, decided, well, we will charge 25 cents per thousand gallons, not 17, and probably had not even read their own agreement even though it had expired through no fault of the Town of Mount Pearl. So, they started sending bills to the Town of Mount Pearl at 25 cents per thousand gallons, and the Town of Mount Pearl said, 'No, we have not agreed on 25,- perhaps it is a reasonable rate, but let us negotiate it'.

This went on for several years, Sir, and finally, last year - there is a clause in the agreement which says that if an agreement cannot be reached, then it would be referred to the Auditor General - it was, and that gentleman quite rightly came back with a report saying that since it was not negotiated at the proper time, therefore it shall stay at 17 cents per thousand gallons for the next ten years. Sir, the Town of Mount Pearl has been paying its water bill. It has an accounts receivabl~ - or accounts payable built up there.

Most that, Sir, I would think probably all of tha~ came from the first five years that the system was in operation. The reason for that is simple, Sir. As I mentioned earlier, the City received $600,000 for that original water system, that main water line. That, of course, was paid, I think, over a five-year period. So, as long as the City was receiving that annual supplement from the Provincial Government, they did not even bother to send the Town of Mount Pearl . a bill for five years, and finally they did - for five years supply of water, . a. staggering amount~ And so the Town was then

May 24, 1977 Tape 3113 RT-2 MR. WINDSOR: saddled with this great amount. This is the reason why it is there. Then, there is a great debate over the accuracy of the meters; all the ' water going to Mount Pearl is metered by a bulk meter at the foot of Park Avenue in the Dodge City area. Sir, while employed by that Town, I questioned the accuracy of that meter, did a study on it, had some experts brought frQm_Boston I believe - it was Boston or New York - and they did some tests on it. They indicated that the meter was reading, I think, approximately 32.8 per cent in error, and some corrections were made on it.

Since then there have been other studies. There have been adjustments made, and now they find~that last study I think that was done in the case- that perhaps the meter is correct. Sir, I~ · personally, still not convinced that that meter - it may be correct now, I am not questioning that - but I have every indication to believe that it could have been a sporadic accuracy over the number of years that it was in use AN HON. MEMBER: and Measures? MR.. WINDS(!JR: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. WINDSOR: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. WINDSOR: (inaudible) . check by the Federal Weights No. It is not, eh? No·, it is not.

Probably it should be. (inaudible) Yes. That is a good point the Minister makes. Perhaps · the Federal Weights and Measures should inspect it, but it is not the sort of thing that these people normally get involved in, I think. It is a fairly complicated process. It would take professional engineers to actually do the inspection on the thing. So, anyway, I think I have made very cle~r here · the point that the Town of Mount Pearl is. indeed paying for the water it uses, paying very nicely. The garbage disposal, Sir. People say, 'Oh, well, everybody is using Robin Hood Bay.

So, the City is operating a great regional system. Are not the surrounding communities lucky to have the City operating this for them.' The Town of Mount Pearl,

May 24, 1977 Tape 3113 RT-3 ~. WINDSOR: Si-r, pays 10 per cent of the cost of operating Robin . llood Bay - 10 per cent - 1thich was agreed on a,. few years ago, and the only reaso~ we did w:as because of the development .. of the great . NewtOWI!,._ area . adjacent to ~ount Pe-arl. Mount Pearl had its own· dump f and L use the term 'dump' because it certainly was n:ot a sanitary · land fill. It left a great: deal to be desired, and it certainly is to the benefit of the Town that it was closed down. But, the primary reason it was· closed down at that particular time was blecause of. tbe development of the Mount Pearl - New town

May 24, 1977 Tape 3114 RT-1 MR. WINDSOR: At that time- there were great talks about having a regional solid waste disposal system. It appeared to be imminent, and so, in the interim period, the Town of Mount Pearl decided to use Robin Hood Bay, and . we agreed to pay the City of St. John's 10 per cent of the operating cost. At that time, it was, I think, something in the order of $7,000 to $7,500 per annum, and I understand from the Town officials that it is now up to $13,000 to $14,000 because the City has decided to do a much better job of it now.

They have been trucking in: a lot of material that they · were not properly doing for a number of years. Other communities are using it. So, certainly, it would appear to me - and this is something that really the Town should be negotiating with the City - the Town_now, I would not think, is contributing 10 per cent of the amount of solid waste that is dispose~ of in that facility. _ Bus service, Sir. People say, 'Well, the Town of Mount Pearl has bus service provided by the City'.

Yes, indeed they do, and anybody who crosses the bridge -Dunn's Bridge on Park Avenue - on that bus, Sir, pays an extra 25 cents for the privilege of making that little loop up through Mount Pearl, and I would suggest to you that the Mount Pearl route is perhaps the only one of all the City bus routes that is paying for itself. So, I do not think we are getting any great gift from the City of St. John's in bus service. Albeit, it is much more convenient than if the Town had to operate its own, but certainly · I think the people in Mount Pearl are paying their way there. Fire protection, Sir.

Certainly, we use the St. John's Fire Department service, but then the cost of that is entirely paid for by the Provincial Government. So that is no great gift from the City. And Police - the City Police do not cover the Town of Mount Pearl, Sir, - the Newfoundland Constabulary, I should sayr but essentially they are the City of St. John's Police force. The RCMP do, and the Town of Mount Pearl has its own Police force. So, the people of Mount Pearl are paying essentially for three Police forces. Provincial taxes are paying for the City Police

May 24, 1977 Tape 3114- RT-2 MR. WINDSOR: force, Federal taxes are paying for th~ RCMP, and the Municipal taxes are paying for their own Police. The bulk of the service they receive is from their own Police force. Certainly, Sir, between the RCMP and the Mount Pearl police ~-h~y__give _t_otal coverag~, ___ _ so the Town receives no great gift from the City of St. John's. So, I would like to know what all these great gifts are. What are they? Shopping facilities, perhaps. People say, 'Oh, well, you come out and you shop in the City of St. John's'. Yes, of course we do.

Shopping facilities in the Town of Mount Pearl are limited, although there are some fine establishments there, but we do spend most of our · dollars in the City of St. John's. Who gets the tax r.evenue from those businesses? The City of St. John's does.- They say we work in the City of St. John's. That is true. I agree. We do. AN HON. MEMBER: So what! MR. WINDSOR: So what! That is right. So what! Sure, we drive on the City streets. An awful lot of St. John's people drive on Mount Pearl streets, and Provincial highways - there are certain subsidies that come from the Provincial Government to the City of St.

John's, Sir, that we are all,paying for. So, I have yet- AN HON .MEMBER: Two per cent. MR. WINDSOR: That is right. I went through that argument when the Minister was away, and what percentage of the Provincial dollar is coming into the Avalon area. I could get into that one again if you· wish- AN RON. MEMBER: MR. WINDSOR: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. WINDSOR: (inaudible) - but I will not. (inaudible) I fail to see where anybody could dig up this ridiculous term of 'parasitic villages'. I would like to see the hon. gentleman who wrote that explain himself. What is he talking about? I doubt that he knows.

Sir, I am sure that other communities in the area feel the same way. I am sure that Wedgewood Park would

May 24, 1977 Tap~ 3114 RT-3 MR. WINDSOR: say the same thiiJ.g. Very little benefits . that: they receive.. from the City of St. John's.. Very, very- little. Just to clue up, you are. talking about parasitic villages, let us consider very q1,1ickly the· percentage of the revenue the MUllicipality .. - has :received from Provincial Government •. _ ~ At _ any rate, _ the: Town of. Mount PearL 'at the- moment: is receiv-ing, I think. it is, 23 per- cent of its total revenue from Provincial . contributions.

May 24, 1977 'rape. 3115 PK -1 Mr. Windsor: Now we look at some other communities in th~ - area, Paradise · 56 per cent, Petty Harbour-Maddox Cove 59 per cent, Pouch Cove 53 per cent, Torbay 50 per cent, Wahana 73 per cent, Wedgewood Park 41 per cent, - --- --- AN RON. MEMBER: tlount Pearl is what io_ ~ wh_at=.._:1:_ _ _ ____ _ _ MR. N. WINDSOR: 23. 'rhe lowest town in the area. It is not --- bad for a parasitic village. The peoplet of MOunt Pearl are, Sir, paying their own way and have for a long time. And not only this gentlemen, I may be picking on him unfairly, but I am just simply ~uoting from him because it was an

article that was available, you know, gentlemen, many branches of the media have used the same term·, Sir, and I think it certainly is a misnomer. MR. CANNING: MR. WINDSOR: MR. CHAIRMAN: expired. MR. CANNING: MR. N. WINDSOR: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. N. WINDSOR: I wonder would the hon. member allow a question? Sure. Order, please! The bon. gentleman's time has I would just like to ask the gentleman - Can I answer his question before I sit down? Yes. Thank you. MR. CANNING: Does that gentleman to whom you are referring call Mount Pearl a parasitic city, does he live in St. John's? MR. N. WINDSOR: Oh yes. MR.

CANNING: That is quite amusing.,is it not? MR. N. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Young) : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Chairman, maybe at this time, since time is getting a little short,! could answer some of the questions put forth by hon. members, and possibly get on with some of the things that should be discussed in this Committee. Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr.

Canning) mentioned several water systems etc.that were started in his area, and wondered what could be done etc.to these areas with

May 24, 1977 Tape 3115 PK.- 2 Mr. Dinn: repect to sewer systems in the coming year and so on. One of the places ment~oned by the hon. member is the community of Rushoon where the Provincial Government put in a water system and they have received something like,in grants ' to that municipality_,someth~ng like $150,000 for the water system. And Mr. Chairman, one of those areas where we have to get concerned as members of government as to whether or not we should continue on the basis that we have continued or have · completed the water system in Rushoon. In Rushoon, Mr. Chairman, - MR.

CANNING: (Inal!_dj.l:>lel_._ __ _ _ MR. DINN: Yes. - there was a possibility of servicing\from the system that was installed,something like sixty houses, and to this point in time only thirty houses have decided to hooM-up to that sy~tem. So, Mr. Chairman, although the price, the cost of installing that system was not excessive,we did ~pent upwards of $150,000 to put a water system in a community and only thirty or 50 per cent of themsidents in that community decided to hoo~ ~p _ to that system _. MR. CANNING: Why? MR.

DINN: I do not know what the reason why, maybe the hon. member would be able to ' inform the House and indeed inform me as to why only 50 per cent hooked up, but that is the case and, Mr. Chairman, with the numbers of people that we have in Newfoundland today without a water system,indeed with no chance of getting a water system for one reason or another because of cost or whatever,it is saddening to me to see a community with a water system where the residents decide not to hookup to that system. And it is one of the reasons, Mr.

Chairman, earlier this year the · department decided to send out a questionaire and ask those communities that were requesting new water systems to indicate by going around and checking with all of the residents in the area how many people would be willing to hookup to that ~stem, if installed, or when installed. And a lot of the communities that we sent out the questiona±te to indeed got back and there is an indication in some that there is 80 per cent, and indications in others that only s~ty-something per cant will hookup

May 24, 1977 Tape 3116 JM- 1 MR.

DINN: . and so on,but we indicated to them what the minimum service fee, water rate,would be and would they hook up if indeed they got a water system; ~-~dit is surprising that we did not receive from all those towns requested,when- we would hear from hen. members ----- - the request·coming in for water and sewer systems in the Province and then we go back with a questionaire as to how many are willing to hook up and we get either no indication or an indication that only sixty per cent,say,will hook up to a system . ,itis rather saddening to me that we look at a bill for $1 million or $2 million for a water and sewer system,and having installed that system . and even before it is installed they are indicating they will not hook up to it.

So we cannot even recover, Mr. Speaker, the cost of operating and maintaining,and that is basically what the water rate is for or the water and sewer rate. It is a minimum cost to the person using the system or using the service, a minimum cost that will defray the costs of operating and maintaining those systems. The other one was Parker's Cove, Mr.

Speaker, and that one was one that was started in March 1972 where it started off and it is one of those things that we would like to get involved more in because we have had many, many successes where the people in the community did ·· the majority, the major portion of the work. We started off in March of 1972 and we went on through until March 1977 and the total contribution there, Mr. Speaker, for water and sewer is $69,557 to this point and time. No doubt that kind of thing will continue. Now, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the Patterson Report, the hon. member for Winsor-Buchans and I do not know whether or not he was quoted accurately in the news media, in the Daily News of this morning,but it is alleged in the column in there that the hon. member has said that he would like to see the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing do a plebiscite in Grand Falls and Windsor to see if the people wish to be amalagamated or joined together right now. Well,

May 24, 1977 Tape 3116 JM- 2 MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the han. member, - --~- would __ be ___ ~ll_ing_ to_ discuss it · with him outside the House, in my office or at any time,the relative merits of going ahead with that right now or not.

I would think - an'. indication has been given to me by many people that they would not consider incorporation from the point of view of the town of Windsor.They certainly do not want to become part of Grand Falls as poor cousins,as I have indicated earlier, and from the position of the town of Grand Falls,! do not think they would entertain taking over Windsor or becoming amalagamated with Windsor with the high costs and the high capital requirement in Windsor for the repair, upgrading, paving etc. of the roads and the other services that are provided-or the people of Windsor would wish to have provided now. MR.

NEARY: What about Freshwater, Jerseyside, Placentia and Dunville? MR. FLIGHT: Wquld the hon~ mini~t~r yield for a moment? MR. DINN: Certainly. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you. I was quoted correctly, Mr.

Speaker, in the context that I went through the solution that the former minister, the hon. minister's predecessor~stated in this House of Assembly last year when the "atterson repor -t was being ~iscussed here that he indicated that what he saw over a period- - now we have to assume he had to be talking over a period of six or seven months or a year and not five years down the road- he saw a situation where,number one~the Patterson report recommendations would be studied by two councils. The two councils would make their opinions and their views known.

Then he saw the next step as being some effort being made by, sponsored by the Department of Municipal Affairs,to enlighten, so to speak, the people of both towns as to the disadvantages or advantages of amalgamation. Then it was his word and not mine, of course you know, whenhe suggested - that when this was done that he would envision and believe that a plebiscite would be the next step. Now that was the minister's solution less than a year ago, Sir.

May 24, 1977 Tape 3116 JM - 3 MR. FLIGHT: Just one more minute just to add to this: I would suggest to the minister it is fine what he said, I agree with him that Windsor needs upgrading before they would ---- -----

May 24, 197T. Tape 3117 RR - 1 MR. FLIGHT: consider coming in as an equal partner. Grand Falls, I can c~rtainly understand Grand Falls' reluctance to amalgamation at this point. But I would suggest to the minister that .. ~f eve:r. amalga!Ilat?-o1l is go~ng to come about then the funds needed to upgrade ~.Jindsor, to put the state o~mind· in Windsor in a position where they would accept amalgamation~would have to be forthcoming through this government, through this minister, through the administration of municipal affairs. And we have not seen that type of input for this past forty-nine years.

And I am suggesting to the minister that if he believes that amalgamation of those two towns are in the better interest of Newfoundland or the central area, then one way or the other he is going to have to find the funds required to upgrade the various facilities in Windsor. And that is the whole point I was trying to make. -r.-m.. DINN: That is a very good point, Mr. Chairman. The thing about it is · the previous minister outlined last year and basically that position has not changed and .that step, number one, was to be input from the councils in the area. That input is not received in my department. ~r.

Chairman, it has not been received. We have not received it. I have not seen it. It never came to my desk. I would like to make that quite clear to the han. member through you, Mr. Chairman, and until that time ·then step one and step two and step three will follow that. But we are, Mr. Chairman, going on with the idea, and I personally am getting involved here in that I would like to definitely - see, I have been out to Windsor several times now, and Mr. Chairman, I would like to see something done with Hindsor and hopefully this year if at all possible.

The hon. ~ember has been made aware of the fact that we are building fifteen subsidized rental units this year in Windsor. And that came about, Mr. Chairman, through co-operation qith the hon. member. At .the first indication this year was that we did not need that kind of a thing in Windsor this year. And

May 24, 1977. Tape 3117 RH- 2 ~m.. DINN: through discussions with the hon. member, Mr. Chairman, we have arrived at the ~ecision whereby fifteen housing units or subsidized rental units will be indeed built in Windsor this year. We would also like to look at the possibility of getting a neighbourhood improvement programme -done for Windsor. Now that takes a considerable period of time, Mr. Chairman, and it may not come about this year. What you have to do to get this kind of a programme off the ground, as the han. member probably is aware, is that first of all you have to get the town involved.

You have to get a conceptual plan. You have to get the people, the residents of Windsor,to agree as to what should be done in the town, get a conceptual plan done, have that plan submitted to the Provincial Government,and in discussions with the Federal Government get it approved and so on and the funds then put in place. And it takes a considerable period of time. In the case of the first neighbourhood improvement programme in St.

John's East, it took something like fourteen months from a committee _getting together and becoming organized, getting· their plans all the way through to a point where approval was given by all levels of government. And in this case it was the ' municipal,provincial and federal governments. So it takes a considerable length of tim~. And I intended, Mr. Chairman, to initiate something of that order in discussions with council and possibly with the federal people through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing to get something going for Windsor in the very near future. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I have already discussed the Henley Commission Reoort as to how far we have gone along to date. I would like to address myself now to some of the comments by the hon. member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) with respect to the questionnaire that he circulated last year. And, Mr. Chairman, on most of the points talked about in the questionnaire, "' and some of the points that came back from these members~ indicated to me,and I am sure to the previous minister, Mr. Chairman, as to ~.rhat

May 24, 1977. Tape 3117 RH- 3 MIL DINN: things should be done in municipal affairs, in local government, etc. in the Province to make the system a little more operational, if you - - will, if that·is the correct term,

May 24~ 1977 Tape No. 3118 EC - 1 MR. DINN: in Newfoundland. And one of the things suggested by the hon. member was suggested last October by the Federation of Municipalities at a meeting out in Gander~ that we should get some kind of a programme for administrators, for the town clerks and the managers, etc., in Newfoundland. And we have gone on, on that, Mr. Chairman.

It has proceeded to the point where now~ with the Department of Public Works, I believe, the Public Service Commission, and, in co-operation with my department, Municipal Affairs and Housing, a programme will be initiated this year, and hopefully out of that will come some more suggestions, as, - indeed - these things are ongoing, and they never stop. They are always being revised, and new suggestions coming in hopefull7 will improve the lot of the administrators of the town, and the towns in Newfoundland, the clerks, the managers, and so on.

So, although I believe we have been on this since last October, and the hon. member's report did not come in until a little later on in the year -we have been on this, and hopefully improvements will be made in the coming year and we can improve their lot.

We had, as hon. members will note, in the Budget, some $4,000 set aside for a conference we held last year: in Gander 'with the municipal administrators, and hopefully, we will have the same kind of thing this year, and get some kind of a programme off the ground, as they indicated to me last year, it was their intention to pursue this matter, and it was our intention to carry out something. And it will be this year. Mr. Chairman, if there are other questions that hon. members may wish to ask - There was a question by the han. member for Lewisporte (Mr. White) about the $60o-- New Homeownership Grant.

And that was one of the things, Mr. Chairman, that we had quite a- I did personally, anyway, because I felt, the programme was a good programme. There is no question about that in my mind. I received representations from the Home Builders Association as to whether we should continue, or not. It came down to the point, Mr. Chairman, where we had so many dollars allocated in Newfoundland, from the provincial coffers, if you will, for programmes this year.

Now, the New Home Ownership programme would have cost the Provincial Government out-of-pocket-- about $2 million in the coming year to continue that programme. '1-Tell, Mr. Chairman, we had an opportunity to avail of a Federal programme that would assist the rural communities,

May 24, 1977 Tape No. 3118 EC - 2 MR. DINN: small communities in Newfoundland, and it was called the Rural and Remote Housing Programme - we are calling it Programme No. 2 -which is a programme whereby, and I explained this briefly before, whereby the Provincial and Federal Governments would get together and cost share in implementing a programme for people who are, say, in a low income-:- .or a needy category.

And it is based on the Rent Supplement Programme that we have available to people in the urban areas, the only difference being that the people in the rural areas will pay the same rent, or on the same rent basis, the same rent scale, from, I believe, 16.7 per cent of their income, up to a maximum of 25 per cent of their income, and they would own their own home. The payout, the difference in what the person pays toward the mortgage and what the mortgage payment would normally be, will be cost shared by the Federal and Provincial Governments on a 50/50 basis. So, it is a good programme.

The total cost of the programme, or the total infusion of dcllars into the Province this year, is of the order of $12 million, of which $3 million will be provided by the Province and $9 million by the Federal Government. Mr. Chairman, it is an excellent programme, and, although the $6oo· New Homeownership Programme was a good programme, it was a programme that we put in, because people had planned last year - had been getting the federal subsidy of $500, -we decided to put it in for a year, to try to soften -the blow on those people who had planned to build a house - J.nd so• on. and do it for at least one year.

Well, we have gone through that year now, Mr. Chairman. We have _extended the date for applications now. It was extended to April 29th - it is now extended to September, so that anybody who has met the criteria - that have had their homes 65 per cent complete - have been moved in there up to March 31st - will still be able to avail of the programme. And it will not have to do with whether they got their application in, on time, or not. T.Ye hope that will alleviate it somewhat. So, Mr.

Chairman, we had the decision, I guess, to make, as to whether we should go on with the $600 New Homeownership Grant, or participate with the federal people on the new programme for the rural areas, which, as hon. members will note, the programme of this adminis- tration is, to try to assist the rural areas, so that we can get our

May 24, 1977 Tape No. 3118 EC - 3 MR. DINN: economy going out there, to str~ngthen our economic base9 and thus, hopefully, in a couple of years, to have the Province on a more sound financial basis.

May 24, 1977 Tape 3119 EB-1. MR.CHAIRMAN: Hon. member for Fogo. ____ ......;. __ _ CAPT. WINSOR: I take it the time is running out and I doubt very much if the minister is going to be able to deal ver;y much with the item by item. There is_iust one question I would like to pose to the minister, actually two. One is the - I hope the minister will be able to find sufficient funds in his vote this year to complete the water system at Musgrave Harbour. But I have discussed this matter with him privately and I do not expect him to be able to tell me now.

There is one matter which I have been getting a lot of complaints about and that is the policy of taxation, especially as it effects the old age pensioner. We have several communities and town councils around where you have two people, two elderly people,getting the old age pension and they are both taxed for services. Now we can understand the wage earner,either male or female~being taxed for the service fee~ However in a great many communities in Fogo District this, is a complaint about where bo~~ old age pensioners are taxed that fee. Could the minister enlighten me, is that in the Act or can it be changed?

What I am trying to imply to the minister,perhaps that should be changed and only one of the wage · earners or the householder be responsible for the service tax. ~m. DINN: Just to answer that question: yes, that is true that both can be , but the only out that they have now is that they can appl'y to the council and request that only one of them pay and then they can get to me and I approve them 99.9 per cent of th,e time. That is the only way out there. MR.CHAIRMAN: Han. member for_ Bu:rin -Placentia. MR. CANNING: Hr. Chairman, I asked several questions over the ~veekend. I got very few of them answered.

The mi~i~ter has told of some i?I.:fces. where there are some ~v-ater system laid and the people have not connected to the system. That is very

May 24, 1977 Tape 3119 LB-2. "MR. CANNING: discouraging, I kno-,;v. But at the same time I am wondering why the people at Rushoon have not connected?. Is it tha~ the waterline goes along by cliffs. People live inside -of a cliff and i~is . practically impossihle to get down with the means that the council would have at their disposal to carry out the work.

I do not know,but surely I would not agree with that and I agree with the minister that if people are not going to try and pay for their services it is just too bad,because this province cannot afford to put in costly systems in places where people only hook up to it if they feel like it. B9wever,Mr. Chairman, the questions that I posed were, sane of them~were more important than the number of people who have connected up. Lt was pollution. I reiterate again it is not the fault of the present minister~ by no means,but two previous ministers left behind them an awful mess in the district of BJ,trin-P~~~tia . West.

At Lewins Cove I mentioned the sewer flowing into the playgrounds which is pretty serious. I was ho~ing ~hat the minister would say that something would be done this year. Perhaps he will if I hurry up and give him a few minutes. At ~~rystown there is a terrible pollution situation. It is horrible. I mentioned that,I told of sewer flowing through the ground, flowing about high-water mark in one cove. Se~ver pumps ,lifts or the pumps that were supposed to lift the sewer over one area into

May 24, 1977. Tape 3120 RH - 1 MR.. CANNING: another cove broken down since last October, ·and was fearing that we even could have an outbreak of disease in the Summer in that particular area. That is Rushoon, again., where $150,000 has been spent to connect up less than one-third, I iiD~gine, of the population. They have a sewer problem there. At Bartlett's Cove, there is a sewer problem there. 1-ie should have fought the contract, walked out and left a very poor job behind them. I am not an engineer, _out I know enough to know that a sewer cannot flow up a hill.

If you drop dm-m a sewer line in the middle of a village, the middle of a town,you need gravity flow or it does not pump. The situation there,right in the middle of the village, the sewer line dropped down by the river, goes up another incline and the sewer is still in it until the flow is such that it brings it up to the gravity point. Eut mostly it is still in it and mostly the odour from the manholes is just unbearable for the people during the Summer months. Again that sewer flows into a still pool, an indentation in the harbour.

It comes in for about a couple of hundred feet, I think, and it is a very narrow indentation. And the sewer just goes dm-m to the edge of that and lies there and again in any p~rt of town you can get the odour,particularly during the Summer months and hot weather. · So, ~r. Chairman, first of all, I am hoping that the minister, if he has time, will tell me if he is going to do sotT1ething about this ridiculous si·tuation at Lewin's Cove, if there is going to be funds made available.

Another question I r"'ould like to have ansv1ered - I run not expecting the answer to it - is if his department has yet arrived at the figure of the cost of the Burin installations, the water and sewer in Burin Bay Arm and of the overrun, the call of $200,000 which I claim is the fault of the contractors and the people of Burin should never have to stand that cost. Is that going to be charged or is it already charged? Has the council accepted the responsibility for it?

Because what I get from the cotmcil and r-1hat I get from the people there - I think that it is a mistake of the bad administration at th~ time, the lack of supervision by the department that caused the overruns

May 24, 1977. Tape 3120 FR - 2 MR.. CANNING: with the five contractors and the two ~ompanies of consulting engineers. They seemed to throw everything into the thing to make_it __ cost as much as they possibly could. And, of course, the detractors clean off the people of Burin, 3,000 people of Burin who certainly cannot afford to meet their financial responsibilities without taxation - property tax. They said they are going to have to put on property tax. They are going to have to tax the stages, tax the outhouses or what in heck you have.

If the hon. member was as old as I am he would remember that was the big private Tories back in 1949 trying to prevent: us from joining Canada. Everything was going to be taxed the nets, the ~Nines, the lines, the boats, the stages. So I do not see any other thing ahead of us at the present moment like we are going ~vithout taxing the property. I think that is about it, ~r. Speaker. ¥~ybe other speakers - there is only a few minutes left. But I would like for them to ans"tver those questions in what time he has available. MR. CHABMAN: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~. NEARY: ~r.

Chairman, the hon. member for Fogo(Capt. Winsor), Sir, raised an interesting question that I ~.:r ould like to 'just ~ursue a little further and that is in connection with senior citizens paying municipal taxes. It is a great burden on our senior citizens, Sir, and I believe that we should be working towards the ultimate elimination of thi.s particular tax for the senior citizens in this Province.

Now, Sir, I just sent out 2,500 ballots to householders in LaPoile district to find out - I gave them four choices - to find out ~vhat advice, what councelling they wish to give me in connection with my political future. And ~.n thin a matter of a week or a couple of weeks I should have a pretty clear indication of which course of action they want me to take. But one thing I want to tell the House is this, Sir, that no matter v1hat

May 2.4 '19 77 Tape 3121 AH-1 MR. NEARY: the people of LaPoile district indicate they want me to do 1 whatever.my political affiliations is in the future~ whether it is with the regular Liberals, whether it is with the NDP, whether it is with the Progressive Conservatives, or whether it is as an independent Liberal.-one thing that I will fight for, Sir, is the elimination of municipal taxes for senior citizens. . .

It does not make any difference where I stand, whether I am with the Tories, with the regular Liberals, with the NDP, or standing alone,I will fight and I will demand any time and any party that I join in the future, I will demand that one of the commitments that they make is that they wouid work towards the elimination - work towards ultimate elimination of the municipal tax burden on our senior citizens. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) age of sixty-five with $20,.000 a year that we should be exempt from taxes. You certainly cannot mean that - AN HON MEMBER: You collect the ~ld Age Pension do you not? MR.

MURPHY: Sixty-five is not the magic number,that is all I am saying; income will have to enter into the thing. 1-:IR. NEARY : The hon. gentleman obviously was not listening to me, I said for th.e majority of our senior citizens. ~- MURPHY: The majority, well it all depends, you know. MR. NEARY: Does that answer the hon.gentleman? MR. MURPHY: No it does not, I would like to know - ~- NEARY: That the tax burden, the municipal tax burden be eliminated, that we work toward phasing it out for the majority of our senior citizens. Well Mr. - MR.

MURPHY: The majority of our senior citizens in ten years time will be better off that~we were at the age of forty - MR. NEARY: Right now, Sir, our people, our senior citizens,cannot afford to pay this tax, it is a burden to them and I, as I say . - I mean, I am entitled to my own philosophy, my own ideology, my own

May 24,1977 Tape 3121 AH-2 MR. NEARY: feelings and I have very strong feelings on this and no matter who r - which way I go which way the people of LaPoile district indicate that I go, that that would be one of the commitments that I would have to get from either party, either of the three parties,that they would work toward the ultimate elimination of municipal taxes on the majority of our senior citizens. And I believe the hon. minister is a compassionate man and the hon.gentleman has a heart and I believe the hon.gentleman would agree with that.

Now, Sir, the other point that I wish to make before I take my seat is in connection with three water and sewer projects that have been unde~ay in the Province new for several vears past, One is down in the community of Placentia. $1 million has been spent, Mr.Chairman, $1 million so far, I believe has been spent over a period of three years in an attempt to put in a water and sewer system in the community, expand the extension, I believe - AN HON MEMBER: A sewer system is the problem. MR.

NEARY: A sewer system - well I do not care what the problem is, they have been working mn it now for three years, they have spent $1 million~and not one home yet is connected. And, Mr. Chairman, what I do not understand, what I do not understand, Sir, although it is Dart, I believe, Dart eonstruction,the one that went bankrupt was also involved in the Placentia one,- of ~vhy the bond holders have not been forced to go in and finish that job.

And we have the same situation down here, Sir, in Pouch Cove~ ~vhereas the Americans used to call it Pouch Cove, I call it Pouch Cove, In Pouch Cove,where we heard the hon.member, the Minister of Tourism, the hon.gentleman who represents that district tell us the other day about _all the wonderful things he was doinr since Pouch Cove became a part of the district of St. John's East Extern and they sent a Tory member to the House, how great it was these people had been led out of the darkness by the hon gentleman•

May 24,1977 Tape 3121 AH-3 MR. .NEARY: Well they are down there now, ·Mr. _Chairman, the place was torn up; I went down there two Sunday's ago and looked at it myself and met with some of the people down there. The fences had been torn down, peopl~i~ -property had been destroyed and Metro Engineering, S.ir, Mr. A.B. ~\Talsh and Company, the gentleman who we have heard so much ·about in this hon. House - over the last several weeks~ If hon.gentlemen do not remember it is the gentleman who is alleged to have delivered the colored television sets. AN HON. MEMBER: The low bidder. MR.

NEARY: The low bidder( Well I do not care if he was the high bidder or the low bidder or the medium bidder; the gentleman pulled his company out, effectiverly pulled his company out of Pouch Cove and out of Torbay. Mr. Chairman, this happened last Fall when both projects were underNay, Metro left the two town councils high and dry through lack of performance, poor organization- AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman~ the hon. gentleman knows it is true and the hon. gentleman's answer to the town of Pouch Cove when they came to see the hon.gentleman was to get rid of the engineering consultants~ That was -

May 24, 1977 Tape no. 3122 Page 1 - ms Mr. Nearr. no answer, Sir, because the engineering consultants,who are Proctor and Redfern,are nationally kno~~. a nationally reputable company that would not kowtow or bend over backwards to give Metro Engineering extras and more benefits that they were asking for. They effectively pulled out and when they came to the minister, the minister's suggestion was, Get rid of your- ~- DINN: :MP .• NEARY: ~-- DINN: Not true. 1vell, it is true, Sir. It is no t true . The hon. gentleman did tell the town council and the mayor to get rid of the engineering c9nsultants.

And if the hon. gentleman wants his memory refreshed- the hon. gentleman also told me the same thing privately. ~R. ~TEARY: "'R .• DINN: :MP.. NEARY : That is not true. That is true, Sir, that the way to solve their problem was to get rid of the egineering consultants, get rid of Proctor and Redfern. I1R. DTNN: MR • CHAIR}f...AN: ~-· DINN: On a point of order. A point of order has been raised. First of all, Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member is going to quote me, whether in private or in public, he ought to quote me either in its entirety or not take something out of context.

The fact of the matter is, in Pouch Cove the consultant could not work with or the engineer~could not work with the construction firm. There are two options: Number one is to call in the bonding company; number two is to get rid of one or other of the parties. If they get rid of the engineering firm or if they get rid of the construction firm., then the bonding company is called to finished or perform where they feel that the construction firm did not perform. In the case of Torbay, it is exactly the same thing.

They have a choice, and the choice is to call in the bonding company - and I did not recommend that they do that nor did I recommend that they get rid of the consultants nor did I recoronend that they get rid of ~he construction firm. All I recoronended to them was their options. They chose to call the bond. The bond, ~v-hen it is ' - - -~·----

May 24, 1977 Tape no. 3122 Page 2 - ms MR. Diti""N: called, it is up·- to the bonding company whether they will come in and perform. 'If they feel that their client, the construction firm is in a good position, and if they did what they could in order to perform what they were supposed to perform, then the bonding company does not go in and finish the job, but they rather go to ligitation or go to the courts. And I believe in one case one of these three that the hon. member has talked about is, the writs have been issued. In two of the other cases, writs are pending. And my concern, ~1r.

Chairman, is to get water and sewer in Pouch Cove, in Torbay and in Placentia and if that is to get rid of a consultant, to get another consultant, whether he is competent or not - and I have never called into question of the competence of any consulting concern in this Province - but if that is the way to get water and sewer in, then that would have to be one of the recommendations, and that is one of the recommendations I gave to the tow~ council and to the hon. member. That is one r.ray out . And there is no I have done nothing in either of these three cases, ~r.

Chairman, that r,.;rould affect the town councils. I:t ~vas their decision. They had the decision to make and indeed I would be or could he accused of interfering if I did anything other than to recommend to the town councils on that basis. ~-IF. • NEARY : YR. CHAIP.Jtflu'f : ~.KR. • ~mP...RY : of order. ~1R. CRAIRM.k'i: MR. NEARY: r-~r. Chairman - Order, please! I feel that there is no point of order. Thank you, You·Honour.

I-feel there is no point The minister has clarified the situation. ~fr, r.hairman, the hon. gentleman, Sir, admitted that one of the recommendations made to the Town Council of Pouch r.ove ~vas to get rid of your engineering consultants. And this is perfectly true, Sir. But the town council saw no reason to get

May 24, 1977 Tape no. 3122 Page 3 - ms ~r. Neary. rid of their engineering consultants,- ·because they were doing a magnificent job in protecting the taxpayers of this Province and protecting the householders in the town of Pouch Cove. And, therefore, · sir~ ~etro Engineering, Mr. A. B. Walsh, effectively pulled his company, his construction company,without even as much as giving a notice to the town council, pulled them off the project, and they did the same thing in Torbay.

Now ~~etro Engineering and the bonding company have been served a writ by the town of Torbay for breach of contract and they are being threatened with another writ by the tmvn of Pouch Cove. In both instances, Sir, the bondholders have been called upon to finish the <vork themselves. And, ~~r. Chainnan, to the best of my knowledge, it is the first time in thirteen years, Sir, that bondholders have been called upon to become involved in projects where a contractor is accused of non-performance. And the minister can twist and tum all he ;-rants. The contract:or has been accused of non-performance by the ~o

Hay 24, 1977 Tape no. 3123 Page 1 - ms Mr. Nearv. town councils involved. They have not - YLR.. DINN: HR. NEARY: There is nO'. twisting and turning. Well, Sir, they have. And the irony of this whole mess,as I ~aid a few moments ago, Sir, is that the company involved in these two projects is the company that has come in for severe criticism, both inside and outside this House in recent weeks. v7e have already heard about :1-fr. A. B. r.:ralsh' s other firms that have been getting a million dollars worth of i.rork from the government without calling public tenders. Hell, this is the same ~r.

Walsh involved in ~etro Er~ineering. But, ~!r. Chainnan, what I am concerned about most of all is what steP,s the minister and the govern .ment have taken to protect the public treasury. The minister tells us that he does not care ho~r the ~eople in Pouch Cove and Torbay get water and sewerage as long as they get water and sewerage. Well,if it cost $1 billion, the people in these communities have to pay for it, and the minister should be concerned about it. And it is the public treasury that will have to put up the money. ~!R. DINN: I never said that I ivas not cone erned.

I said, I am concerned that they get water and se~.rer. That is the prime objective. ~. NEARY: MR. nnrn: MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: MR. NEARY: ~!R. DLT'ffi: ~·"R. NEARY: }AR. DINN: At any cost. No, not at any cost. At any cost, Sir - I did- not say that. - and I say that that is scandalous. The minister - Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I did not quote the minister as saying that. I ~.rould ask the hon. member to withdraw that I said, '~At any cost." :M:R • NE.A ~y : said it. ~-· DINN: I did not say you said it. I did not say you Mr. Chairman.

}f_ay 24, 1977 Tape no. 3123 Page 2 - ms ~-· DINN: You said that I said that the ~vater and sewer should be installed at any cost. I did not say that. }IR. NEARY: MR. DINN: to withdraw. ~.ffi • NEARY : MF .• DINN: No, you did not say that. And I would ask you to ask the han. member No, Sir, I did not say it. Come on,man-fashion now, get up and do it. i'-W... CHAI:F.¥.AN (Hr. Yotmg) : I feel it is a difference of opinion in what has been said. If not, I will have to adjourn and go for the tapes. HR. NEARY: ~r.

Chairman, look, I will save you the troublel Your Honour,.i£ I offended the bon. gentleman, I withdraw it, but I did nat say it in the first place, but nevertheless to save time, Sir, and to get on with my few remarks I would say that it ~.rould appear that the minister does not care how the people down there get water and sewerage, put it there at any cost, put it there at any cost and make the people pay for it and make the public treasury suffer the consequences. Mr. Chairman, what I say is that the minister should take immediate steps to bar Hetro Engineering and anv other of the A. B.

Walsh firms who are trying to horn in on government business, bar them from getting future contracts, because they cannot perform or demand - the ministers should call them in and demand that they prove they can perform before they get a contract. 0therwise, Sir, the minister is going to be wasting the taxpayers' money.

And in these two cases, if not three, the one in Placentia, the minister should take and the government should take immediate steps to protect the public treasury, and as I say bar these firms from being awarded any government contracts in the future unless they can prove their ability to handle them, and not do as ~,.etro Engineering did. Start up the project, try to milk a few more dollars out of the public treasury, and if you cannot do it, if you cannot get the enginee~ing consultants to kowtow and bend over, bend down and grind them down, if you

May 24, 1977 Tape no. 3123 Page 3 - ms H:r. Neary. cannot grind them down with political interference and influence, then pull out and leave the communities high and dry, and put the matter before the courts. That, Sir, is their attitude. Put the matter before the courts and ~·Taste a lot of time over procedures that should have never happened in the first place. So, Hr. Chairman, these are the lii.ain points that I want to make at this particular time, Sir. I do hope that the minister will respond and respond quickly - sm~ RON. ~fBEPS : Eea.r, hear!

J0. ~JEARY: - and not just let this matter dra~ on before the courts, because the longer it drags on the longer the people are going to be left without water and sewerage, the cost will escalate, the people ~Yill eventually have to pay for it, and step in and demand that the bondholders - because that is whv you have bondholders, Mr. Chairman. I do not know if the hen. gentleman is aware ' of that. That is ~.;rhy t~e bondholders are there. They should be instructed immediately to come in and finish these projects, and not get involved in long ligitation proceedings and long draggec-out court cases.

And in the meantime, ~r. Chairman, the property that looks like a cyclone hit it in Pouch Cove should be put back into shape, the people's fences should be put back, the gardens should be restored and all that damage that has been done bv ¥etro Engineering. In going in you would not know hut it was' El Alamein. The landing on the beaches in Normandy had nothing on it r,;hen they started. They ~.;ent in and they destroyed everything in there ahead of them.

May 24, 1977 Tape 3124 PK- 1 Mr. Neary: And ;they should be ordered back, put everything back in shape in Pouch Cove. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Carried. MR. CHAIRM~ (MR. YOUNG): Shall I report Head. XIV Municipal Affairs and Housing all headings without amendment? On motion Head XIV - Municipal Affairs and Housing carried with amendm~nt. Head XII - Forestry and Agriculture ::fR. CHAIR..~ (MR. YOUNG): The han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. E. MAYNARD: Mr.

Chairman, I suppose it is appropriate for me to make a few opening remarks in introducing my estimates to the House of Assembly. It is going to be difficult to go through the Department of Forestry and Ag~iculture in the short time, the twenty minutes available, but I am hoping throughout the course of the four hours for the total estimates so I will have more time to answer questions and to make comments on various aspects of the department. In general, Mr.

Chairman, it is fair to say the government considers the Department of Forestry and Agriculture ~nd the things that are administered by that department as very important because