Volume XL Friday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Third Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) . Speaker: Honourable ' Patrick McNicholas Number 6 6 March 1987

The House met at 10:00 a.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to announce that taking place at this moment at Hotel Newfoundland is an announcement by the hon. Gerald Ottenheimer, Minister of Energy, the hon. John Crosbie, federal Minister of Transport, and thE! hon. Marcel Masse, federal Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources -- MR. TULK: You would not go down with them . PREM IE R PECKFORD: I only go where the Prime is .

First Ministers only First Ministers. that eight new totalling $66.6 million- SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Minister talk to projects Mr. Speaker, therE! werE! pE!ople just coming into the gallery while I was speaking and I am sure they would not want to miss this. Eight new projects totalling $66.6 million have been jointly approved for funding under the L286 March 6, 1987 Uol XL Canada/Newfoundland Offshore Development Fund. These projects, Mr.

SpeakE!r, are dE!signed to giVE! long-term economic benefits to the Province by establishing basic facilities and programmes in support of E!ducation, training, industrial infrastructure and research and development related to the offshore. Therefore, Mr . Speaker, in recognition of their significance, I would Like to provide the han. members with details relating to them and ensure that they all haVE! copiE!S of this statement so that they can puruse it at their leisure later. The first project, Mr.

Speaker, relates to a $2.7 million contribution to l:he Centre For Offshore and Remote Medicine and Telemedicine at Memorial University which will broaden and improve its various offshore related training, research and direct medical services. Memorial UniVE!rsity has for thE! past dE!cadE! been developing specialized programmE's in offshorE' and remote medicine and telemedicine, and at present is the only university in Canada with substantial facilitit?.s in this field.

This funding will be used to construct a new modern facility to house the centre and to purchase a full-scale hyperbaric - which we all know all about - medical chamber and other offshore-related medical equipme!nt big words, like 1 marrnalade 1 • Such support at this critical time in the Centre 1 s evolution should enable it to become a world leader in all aspects of offshore and remotE! ITlEldicine. The second project announce!d, Mr. Speaker, is a $17.4 million research and developmE!nt programmE! designed to establish a stronger pE!troleum-related R and D prE!SE!nce in the Province - $17.4 million. No. 6 R286

" fhe Funding package of this $17.4 million includes a $':> milJ.ion contribution to C-Core, the Cold Ocean Resources Engineering at Memorial University over a five year period to faciJ.itate the acceleration and extension of its long-term rE!SE!arch and dE:welopment plan. This plan includes focusing on the safe and economic development of offshore petroleum resources and is comprised of three principal thrusts: Here is what thE! $5 million wilJ. do: (

A) a measurement of ice impact forces on various offshore structure!S; (

B) the development of ice hazard detection radar systems; and (

C) the conduct of ice scouring research on the ocean floor. Also included in this R and D package is a $7.4 million contribution to NORDCO to develop a Centre of Excellence in 1"1arine Signal Processing and Remote Sensing at their . headquarters. This Centre will be unique in Canada and one of the few "in the world. The benefits to the provincial economy will be correspondingJ.y significant.

Beyond providing continuing employment for the corporation's highly qualified scientists, E!ngineers and te!chnicians over the next three years, it is expected that many new, long-term high tech positions will also be created with further spin-offs in the manufacturing and service sectors of the provincial economy. I am pleased to add that an additional $5 million has been approved to support a wide range of srna1ler-scale R and D projects which will facilitate the development of a world class capability in areas that are strategic to the development of the Province's offshore oil and gas industries.

This $5 million L287 Marc h 6 , 1 9 8 7 Vol XL is to go to the private sector. Specific proposals will be actively encouraged and solictted from the private sector and various petroleum relaLed institutions in the ProvinCE! oVE!r the next two years. In other words, there is $5 million there now for various compan-ies and other institutions to to get funds to do other R and D projects whtch are going to bE! important to haVE! done. So it is not just government, it is the privatE! sector as we11. The third project, Mr.

Speaker, is a $3 million Offshore Technology Transfer Opportunities Programme designed to transfer new offshore-related technology and management techniques to thE! Newfoundland business community. This will involve the upgrading of professional, technical and managerial capabilities in local firms so as to place them "in a better position to capture industrial and other business opportunities associated with the offshore. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the fourth project is one that I guess a lot of us here on this side of the House and I am sure all Newfoundlanders wtll be very pleased with, especially the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. This is extremely important and it is very much a part of our re!organization of our post-secondary institutions. It is a $21.1 million Petroleum Technology Training Programme for all of thE! post--secondary institutions in the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: No. 6 R287

The emergence of the offshore industry in Newfoundland has presented a challenge to the Province 1s educational and training sys tern to provide our labour force with the skills necessary to take advantage of n1:?.W and expanded employment opportunities. Funding announced today will be used to meet this challenge. If there are any students in the audience! this morning I am sure they will be glad to hear about this, at least some of them who might be interested in going into these fields.

Here are some of the priority areas that will be put into place in courses in the various post-secondary institutions around the Province: Engineering technology, welding technology, electrical and electronics technology - all related to marine and offshore and crane operator training. Those will be the priority areas for courses now under this fund. The! fifth project, Mr. Speake!r is a $1.3 million Industrial Infrastructure Planning Program.

This project involves the undertaking of prE!-enginee!ring and design work related to the possible Hibernia development sites at Argentia (major steel fabrication yard) and Adams Head/Come By Chance (GBS construction facility). So we got the engineering done there. This $1.3 million will be USE!d immediately to do engineering design work so that we have that work already done at Argentia and at the Adams Head/Come By Chance area so that if Hibernia is released in the next few months we will have that work done, bought and paid for, so that we can go to tender very quickly thereafter with the private sector.

It is anticipated that some level of L288 March 6, 1987 Vol XL government support will ultimately be required to develop these industrial sites in a timely manner and to take full advantage of local indus l:rial fabricat:.ion opportunities associated with the Hibernia ProjE!ct; hence, thert~ is a nE!E!d to undertake now somE! preliminary engineering work in relation to them. The sixth pro j e c t , and I know the han. member behind me is going to be happy, Mr. Speaker, is a $20 million Offshore Fabrication EnhancemE!nt ProgrammE! at Marystown Shipyard Limited. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, Hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: In order to establish itself as a credible player in the offshore steel fabrication industry, Marystown Shipyard will need to embark upon a major upgrading programme, both in terms of manpower training and facility enhancement. Successful implementation of such a progra1nrne wi 11 p 1 a c e t he s hip y a r d i n a position to capture a significant portion of ste!el farbication work related to the Hibernia project. This in turn will place the Province in a strategically advantageous position to reap substantial long-term industrial and employment benefits from the offshore.

Accordingly, a surn of $2 million is being made available immediately to assist the shipyard in upgrading its engineering and managerial capabilities and to commence engineering studies to identify specific areas where its physical facilitiE!S are in neE•d of improvement. An additional $18 million for physical expansion and upgrading of the shipyard 1s facilities has been approved-in-principle and when the No. 6 R288

results of the engineering studies a.re in, a decision to moue ahE!ad will go at the same time as a decision on Hibernia. Mr. Speaker, a seventh project relates to, for the hon. member behind me again, the provision of $600,000 for a one kilometre road to improve access to the rE!Cently established Cow Head oil rig repair facility at Mortier Bay. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD : This road will be construe ted during the Summer of 1987 and will connect the Cow Head Site with the Burin Peninsula Highway to make it an efficient access road for the going and corning of various large trucks and material that is needed at Cow Head. The eighth project, Mr. Speaker, will provide $500,000 for administrative support to the Canada-Newfoundland Offshore Development Fund Committee which has charge of thE! responsibilities of monitoring and controlling the implementation of the approved projects over the life of the Development Fund Agreement. Mr.

Speaker, these projects reinforce the fundamental strategy and direction that my government has adopted with respect to the Offshore Development Fund. Considering the five projects previously approved, in excess of $100 million has now been committed from the $300 million fund to implement programmes and projects which will placE! the Province in a strong position to gain long-term economic benefits from the development of the offshorE!. L2 89 March 6, 1987 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, before I sit down it is extremely important that you make haste slowly in this field to E!nsure that the projects that WE! are approving are fully researched, that when you announcE! them they are ready to go and that they are meaningful, concrete steps toward ensur-.ing that we are going to be in the right placE! at the right time, technologically and in every other way, to take advantage of the offshore developments which will come our way in the not too distant future. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gOE!S without saying, Mr. Speaker, l:hat this Opposition is pleased with the announcements we have heard this morning. We are happy, of cour~e. for the communities and the people who will benefit most from the projects, Marystown and the people who live on the Burin Peninsula and around Marys town. Of course, we are happy for all the people, Mr. Speaker, who will get jobs as a result of this announcement. Mr. Speaker, one would have to say, though, that this is probably long overdue . It was only a ft:.'W days ago that we wanted to know what was happening to the $300 million.

It is coincidE!ntal that the Premier would stand up a fr:-w days after the question was as kE!d and outline $66 million. Mr. Speaker, there is sornE!lhing No. 6 R289

significant in this statement. The people of Newfoundland are waiting out there with bated breath, and have been waiting for the past three or four YE!ars, for an announcement on when Hibernia wiJ.l start, when we will have production on our offshore, when all our young Newfoundlanders will be able to come home, and when the jobs and the money and the revenues will be generated from our offshore that will help the way of life of the people of Newfoundland. What is significant in this statement, Mr.

Speaker, is of the $66 million expenditure, there is only the one expendi t:ure - I will point it out in a minute $1.3 million, that directly affects the development of Hibernia, and that is a $1.3 million Industrial Infrastructure Planning Programme: 11 This project involves the undertaking of pre--engineering and design work relatE!d to the possible 1 possible 1 Hibernia development sites at Argentia. 11 Now, one could argue that that relates directly to the deVE!loprnE!nt and the bringing into production of our offshore. The rE!St of the expenditures, Mr.

Speaker, are expenditures that can bE!, and should be spent in Newfoundland anyway, and a lot of thern arE! relative to our fishing industry, nothing to do with offshore or Hibernia. Mr . Speaker, the $2.7 million contribution to the Center for Offshore and Remote Medicine. We have a medical school down there, Mr. Speaker, where we are training doctors who leave Newfoundland and go around the world. We may well be training people - which will be good - who will work offshore elsewhere. What we want, Mr.

Speaker, what we need from the Premier is an announcement that the jobs that we are getting these L290 March 6, 1987 Uol XL people ready for will be there when they are ready so that: they wilJ. not have to join thE! 20,000 who have already left Newfoundland SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: - so that these people we train in our offshore related activities will not haVE! to join thE! 20,000 young Newfoundlanders who left N e wf o u n d 1 and i n t he 1 as t f i v E! or six years. It is good l:o train young Newfoundlanders. But, Mr.

Speaker, Newfoundland wants those young people trained so that they can work and live and help generate revenue in Newfoundland. in this staternE!nt I liked to have Set'n an Somewhere would have indication development near future. Speaker. that the Hibernia was somewhere in the I do not see it, Mr. 11 A $17.4 million Research and Development Programme designed to establish a stronger petroleum-related research and development presence in this ProvincE:1. 11 Fine, Mr. Speaker, if there was no oil. If we knew today that we would not go into production of Hibernia for fifty years, it would still makE!

SE!nse to try to make Newfoundland a world class research and development area, which is happening here. But there is no reason for the people of Newfoundland as a rE!SUlt of this statement: to feel any more secur·e about what the oil on the Grand Banks is going to mean to this Province. The third project, Mr . Speaker: 11 A $3 million Offshore Technology Transfer Opportunities Progr·amme No . 6 R290

designed to transfer new offshore-related technology and management techniques to the Newfoundland business community.11• Mr. Speaker, we could use that if we had no oil. There are countries in this world which are training their young people to take jobs in industries that they do not have. Somewhere, sometime, Mr. Speaker, the Premier is going to have to stand up in this House and tell Newfoundland when we can expect development in the offshore. Now, Mr. Speaker, $21.5 million for Marystown. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar, hE!ar! MR. FLIGHT: No, I am ahead of myself, Mr.

Speaker. 11$21.5 million Petroleum Technology Training Programme which will upgrade existing post-secondary tE!Chnology training facilii:ies and programmes.11 Mr. SpE!akE!r, again all we are doing is increasing the ability of Memorial University and our technical schools to train young Newfoundlanders for jobs in the offshore, jobs that for the past five years have been held out, and for this past year, Mr. Speaker, have not materalized. Every day, according to the Minister of Transport (Mr. Crosbie) on television a couple of nights ago, and according to our ex-Premier, the man who first told us we had oil, Mr.

Moores -the han. member laughs, but Mr. Moores, our ex-Premier, told this government - MR. MATTHEWS: Your leader told us that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! L291 March 6, 1987 Uol XL MR. FLIGHT: that we missed the window on offshore -now, Mr. Speaker, we los l: the opportunity -'and i l:. may not come again', he said, 'in HlE! near future.' Well, I am worried about the near future, I am worried and concerned about the future of these . young people sitting in the galleries. Mr.

Speaker, maybe thE!Se young peoplE! will take advantage of some of the opportunities that have been announced in this $66 million, but the question is, will thE! fruits of their labour benefit Newfoundland? Will they be working in the Newfoundland offshore? Not according to ex-Premier Frank Moores. Mr. Speaker, the Maryslown Shipyard: rhe Marystown Shipyard was there long before we knew there was oil at Hibernia. Marystown Shipyard has been asking this Province to upgrade its facilities to permit it to be a world class shipyard. MR. SPEAKER: Order, plE!ase! The han. member's time has elapsed. MR.

FLIGHT: Just one second to clue up, Mr. Speaker. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, one can make the argument that l:.he $20 million going into Marystown Shipyard was needed and necessary irregardless of any offshore opportunities. Mr. Speaker, :il: is good to get this kind of development. We welcome it, and we are pleased for the people LIJho will benefit from it. But it does nothing, Mr. Speaker, t.o ease people's minds in this Province who, as a result of the rhetoric of the past ten years, have pinned their hopes on Hibernia getting them out of the fiscal bind we are No. 6 R291

into. Mr. Speaker, we welcome i:he announcement. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr . SpE!akE!r . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Just OnE! comment before I start. I was wondering if the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) had had the name of his district changed, since the Premier referred to him as 'the member from bE!hind rne 1 on several occasions. Actually, I think it would be appropriate that we stick to legitimate names.

It is unfortunate that this package of money, this $66.6 million, is likely to be about the major contribution to development funds this year, given the financial condition of the Province . In a sense , it a 1 rno s t seems to be pointing the money in the wrong direction, or not in the wrong dirE!Ction, but perhaps there are other directions we would like to point thE! money into, for example, such as the inshore fishery and other aspects of our economy which I think desperately neE!d the funds. Unfortunately, we are in this agreement.

At the tirne it was signed, it looked like the Hibernia development would be imminent in terms of its development and it was a reasonable proposal then. Now, of course, the fear is that we rnay be training and preparing and engineering and gearing up, and everything else, for an industry that might be several rnore years in the future in terms of its development, if at all. L292 March 6, 1987 Vol XL Having said that, there ar'" a Few specific comments I would likE! to make about the proposal.

One is that there is some money in therE! for safety develop111ent: which we applaud, since this is just a lit .tle over five years since the Ocean Ranger disaster. It is, I think, appropriate thai: we l:urn our attention to the development of safety . In looking at the proposal it seems to me remarkable that although we are willing to spend rni1lions of dollars towards it, it is primarily in the measurement of icE! impact forcE!S, the development of ice hazard detection, and thE! conduct of ice scouring research on the ocean floor. Mr.

Speaker, we still have thE! major problem of how to evacual:e people from oil rigs when they get themselves into extreme difficulty. I think we all realize that within the last couple of days the last contractor that is drilling for oil announced the preferred orientation displacement system, the PROD system, as one means of evacuating the oil rigs.

I would like to point out today that that. systE!m has not been tested 'not been tested' for list or trim conditions, it has not been certified by the Coast Guard to th:is present day, and it has been criticized by a number of professional agencies as not bl"!ing appropriate. These include the Royal Institute of Naval Architects and the Ocean Ranger Commission Consultants of Hollobone, Hibbert and Associates Limited.

So maybe one of the things that should be done with this fund is to perhaps pul: a bit more money into research, directly into the area where we know we have a major problE!m, and that is if a rig gets into trouble again, No. 6 R292

how do we get the crew off that rig securely. So I would suggest to the individuals who are directing the money from this fund that maybe they should have another look at the disbursement of it to see that in the near future more money may be committed to this extremely important area of safety development. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Before calling for Oral Questions I would like to welcome to the galle•ries twenty-nine Kindergarten to Grade IX students, and their three teachers, Graham Carey, Wesley Stagg and Edna Earle. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER : I would also like thirty-four Grade students and their Mr. Stewart Marks, Hodder From the Adventist Academy. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! to welcome X to XI I two teachers, and Mr. Don Seventh Day Oral Questions MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR . KELLAND : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To make a quick comment, I did read the transcripts from yesterday 1 s Question Period and I would like to ask the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.

L293 March 6, 1987 Vol XL Matthews) ··- I am sure hE! expc:!cts the question, or part of it- to inform the House in concise terms, in today 1 s terms, for an update on what action he and his department have taken or will yet take with respc?.ct to the Innu hunters from Sheshatshit taking caribou from the Mealy Mountain herd, which, as you know, is protE!Cted by provincial wildlife laws? MR. SPEAKER : The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth . MR. MATTHEWS : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. mE:~mbE!r for the qUE!Stion, at the same time welcome him back to the House of Assembly for this session, and to say that I have been monitoring this situation very closely since Monday. The hon. gentleman is correct in that we do have a number of Innu hunters - well, family members, actually - from Sheshatshit in the Mealy Mountain arE!a and the•y haVE! illegally taking in our estimate now in E! x c e s s of thirty caribou . We have had our Wildlife Office::!rs and rnernbers of the RCMP involVE!d in great detail trying to bring this situation to a peaceful solution.

On Monday the officers approachE!d the camp and were met with some degree of hostility by hunters and children and women. The RCMP, who, of course, have thE! greatE!St amount of training and experience in this kind of a situation, decided that they should leave l:ht:! scene and try to initiate some kind of mediation effort: to bring a peaceful solution to it. While I say that, Mr. Speaker, as Minister of wildlife it is certainly not our intent, or' 1ny intent, to turn a blind eyE! to thE! illegal hunting that is taking No. 6 R293

place there. I just want to assure the han. member that the breaking of our wildlife regulations and the laws of the Province will be met with the nE!Cessary action and that charges will certainly be laid. MR. KELLAND : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Naskaupi . MR . KELLAND: I thank the minister for that information. I just came back from the district, as you have mentioned, and there is quite a lot of unrest up there.

Yesterday's transcript did not indicatE! it, but is the minister aware that it is a much more complex issue than someone getting meat for the Winter, or the rest of the Winter? It strikes me and will the minister confirm this - that his government's consistent inability to deal with Native and other Labrador concerns rE!flE!Cts a sort of government attitude, which is perceived by Labradorians to cause a lot of these problems. [t seems that you are sitting back . PREMIER PECKFORD : They do not recognize us, Government of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR.

KELLAND: the I am asking the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth, will the minister confirm, will he admit that it. is the government 1 s inability - PREMIER PECKFORD: L294 March 6, 1987 Vol XL They do not recognize us . MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker, I am not asking a question of the Premier. ~R_. _Sir:1tlS: You arE! minister. questioning the wrong You should know that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. KELLAND: DOE!S l~he minis\~er confirm, does he admit that it. is the government 1 s inability to deal with Native issUE!S in Labrador that brings about problems of this nature?

Or is the minister saying that he has adopted, or the government has adopted a policy MR. MATTHEWS : We could argue on that . MR. KELLAND: Just a minute . - to close your E!yes, sit. back and the problems will go away? They have not gone away yet, Mr. Minister. What is your answer? MR. SPEAKER : Order, ph~ase! A point of order, the han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is asking a supplementary question which he started about three minutes ago. Now a question is supposed short, to-the-point, thE! first question. hon. member should question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

No. 6 supplementary to be a VE!ry follow-up of I think thE! state his R294

To that point of order, the point of order is well taken. I think the hon. member was taking too long to get to his supplementary question. So I would ask him if he would pose his question. MR. MATTHEWS : I could answer it. MR. SPEAKER: Well, if the hon. minister wishes to answer, that is fine. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I will gladly answer the question. The situation, what is happening in the Mealy Mountains, is no way any reflection on the ability of this governmE!nt.

What I, as a minister, and this government is trying to do is to prevent a situation that could turn into grE!at has tili ty and confrontation, and instead of only having caribou taken illegally and hunted illegally we may see some injury to human lifE! and maybE! loss of life. As the Minister of Wildlife I think I am taking a very responsible approach to this, in consultation with the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge).

Now, we want to settle this issue, but, at the same time, with full concern for the wildlife resource of the Mealy Mountains where the numbers of that herd have been at a dangerous level for a number of years. At the same time we do not want to incite a problem up there where we see human beings being injured or whatever. So we arE! trying to deal with it. As I said to the hon. member, we intend to lay charges because these caribou have been taken illegalJ.y.

As I said pubJ.icly and in this House before, if the Innu · hunt that herd wi t.h total L295 March 6, 1987 Vol XL disregard, in a few years ti rnE! we will not have to come to this House or any public forum to argue who has the rights to hunt the caribou because there will not be any there. So t-h e s i t u a t i o n i s n o t a rna t. t e r of this government 1 s inabili t.y to deal with l:he situation.

If you have eighty or ninE!ty pE!Ople who go into a mount:ain area, a car-ibou range, and set up a camp illE!gally and dig in on the issue, then I do not think that in any way reflects the inability of this government because someone has a problem with Native rights and IA.r.ith low level flying. All I am saying is we have involved the RCMP in this issue because they have thE! most training and experience in dealing with situations such as this .

Certainly, as Minister of Wildlife my officials are having conversation with Superintendent Leahy and other people, and we are certainly going to take their advice on dealing with the issue. MR. KELLAND: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: I commend the minister 1 s concern about wildlife and human life, and I support that.

Because of such a complex situation and a potentially dangE!rou s situation, is the minister, himself, personally willing to go into Labrador in the very, very near future, meet with the Innu hunters and meet with i:he other concerned hunters and concerned people in Labrador, with a view to medial:ing at that level? Would the minister give a commitment t:o go inl:o Labrador as soon as possible? No . 6 R295

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER : The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth . MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker, today, as a matter of fact, there will be a representative of our Wildlife Division meeting with the people from the Innu in Labrador. We have been trying since late yesterday, last night and again this morning, to get a commitment from thE! Chief thE!re to sit down and discuss this situation and see if we cannot resolve it as peacefully as possible. As of my leaving my office this morning, we had not heard back. So we are still monitoring the situation very, very closely.

We want to resolve it as best we can, as peacefully as we can, as I said beforE!, but still to E!nforce the wildlife regulations and laws of thE! Province . That certainly wi 11 be done, I can assure him of that. I know t.hE!re is concern in {~he areas as well from a lot of other people, from a lot of other communities. There is a meeting taking place tonight in the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area. MR. KELLAND: A point of order, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR.

KELLAND : With all due respect, Minister, I asked a simple supplementary in accordance with what an earlier government speaker corrected me on, my long drawn out question. The simple question is, and the point of order is, I asked you, L296 March 6, 1987 Vol XL 1 ArE! you willing to give the cornrni tment that you, yourself, as the minis tE!r rE!Sponsible, will go .in there. I That ts l:he point oF order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That is no point of order. The hon. the Minister oF Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. TULK: You should do one thing or the other - answer him or sit down. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, plE!ase! MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, would the buFFoon from Fogo please be quiet so I can answer the question, please? Mr. Speaker, we are trytng to deal with this situation as dj.ligently and as cautiously and as moderately as possible, taking into all due consideration the wildlife regulation laws of this Province. But there is another form of life that I am concE!rned about, as I have already told l~he gentleman, in that we do not want hostility in there where we have eighty or ninety people in a camp who have confronted in essence enforcement officers of the Wildlife Division and the RCMP.

We are prE!sently, as we have been since Monday, trying l~o have effective mediation, conciliation efforts deal with the issue. There have been community leaders who have blessed this event, this illegal activity, and that concerns me very much, and 1 am sure everyone in this House is concerned about that. Now if it comes to the crunch and WE! do not No. 6 R296

resolve the situation over the next short while, I have no difficulty as Minister of Wildlife going in and talking to anyone. But the situation now, that the han. gentleman has to remember, is that at present there is no one willing to talk to anybody. We made the approaches. We want them to talk. So if I go to Labrador it does not mean that anybody is going to talk to me because I am minister. It does not mean that. We have the RCMP and our wildlife people there, but because I go down as minister does not mean that someone from the Band Council of Sheshatshit is going to talk to me. MR.

KELLAND: There are more hunters in Labrador besides the Inuit. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MATTHEWS: You should have been in your district instead of Hawaii. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier and it is with respect to a new phenomenon in this Province called the Peckford Peter Principle. I would like to ask the Premier in light of the Minister of Finance1s (Dr.

Collins) statements that none of our Newfoundland lawyers could handle this $400,000 project to NewfoundJ.and -in fact, I think he referred to our lawyers as merely L297 March 6, 1987 Uol XL the common garden type -is the Premier seriously telling Newfoundlanders and Labradorians that he could not find, amongst the battery of lawyers in his own Justice Department or from lawyers in private firms across Newfoundland and Labrador, a Newfoundlander to do this half million dollar job? Is he telling us that he had no choice but to pass out this cash to his buddy in Alberta? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: That is so low, Mr. Speaker, it is not even funny. That is low. MR. FUREY: Answer the question. PREMIER PECKFORD: We have been using the Department of Justice lawyers here in Newfoundland -all Newfoundlanders, I th'i.nk -and Newfoundlanders were used on our legal case on the offshorE!; we are using Newfoundland lawyers euery day for many, many projects in this Province. Most of the projects that we do, undertakings that we have, are done by lawyers resident and practicing in Newfoundland, and we will continue to use them as we are using somE! of them now.

Cabot Martin is being used right now on a consultancy basis to help us tJJi.t.h the offshore negotiations. He is a Newfoundlander. He is being used and is being paid. What we also neE!ded, Mr. Speaker, as it relates to Hibernia and the whole offshore question, was SOITIE! outside expertise, especially a No. 6 R297

group of people who have been involved both with the federal government in negotiating oil and gas agrE!ements over the years and who have been involved in the oil and gas industry worldwide. And this firm is not only doing legal work it is doing economic work as well, because this firm has been involved in economic analysis as well as legal analysis. A lot of thE! work that this firm is doing, now that Mr. Lougheed is a part of it ., is in the economic field. We are doing work here in our Justice Department, Mr.

Cabot Martin is doing work as a Newfoundlander, and we have hired this firm who are experts in the field of energy, especially oil and gas. Now, there is not in Newfoundland per se, in particular, a law firm that has been involved extensively in oil and gas negotiations and economic analysis. There just is not. Where there is any experU.se we use it, but it is, in our view, essential that we also have, if it is available, expertise from outside who have been dealing with the federal government and with Energy, Mines and Resources, and who have been dealing with energy pr-ojects around the world.

This firm has not only been dealing with Canadian energy projects related to oil and gas, but also worldwide. That is the reason for having Mr. Lougheed and his firm involved. But we are also using Newfoundland lawyers wherever we find that they have the expertise needed for this particular kind of issue we have here. MR. FUREY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: the L298 March 6, 198'7 Vol XL The Premier tells us now, clearly, that he had full knowledge that he would probably would be engaging Mr. Lougheed 1 s law firm.

Now, in November of 198S - MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! MR. FUREY: - the Premier told us he would be paying him $40,000 annually plus expenses. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. FUREY: Now my question is this . MR. SPEAKER: order, please! I have noticed on a number of occasions that when I call the hon. member to order he continues speaking. So I would just like to say to him that he is completely out of order in doing that and I hope will not have to draw that matter to his attention again. MR.

FUREY : My question to the PremiE!r is why did not the Premier, when he announced in this House that he would be paying Mr. Lougheed $40,000 annually plus expenses, tell the people of Newfoundland then that he would possibly be engaging this law firm to the tune of $500,000? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: The answer, Mr . Speaker, is because we did not know at that time. Mr. Lougheed "is being paid $40,006 a year to be a part of the negotiating team. He attends all of the meetings that are held No. 6 R298

between the Minister of Energy (.Mr. Ottenheimer) for Newfoundland and the Minister of Energy. Mines and Resources (Mr. Masse) in Ottawa, attends additional meetings on behalf of Newfoundland in our dealing with Ottawa and in our dealings with companies, has attended almost all of the meetings of the offshore negotiating team here in Newfoundland as well as the meetings with the companies and the federal government together. That is his job, and to give advice through that .

As we went through the negotiations it became! obvious - I can give a list of other studies that are going on this day through l:he Petroleum Directorate in addition to with what is going on with Mr. Peter Lougheeed 1 s firm; there are many other studies going on - that it was necessary to get some other in-depth analysis done, not by one person but by a firm of people, a group of people who have done exte!nSiVE! work in this area. This firm has done extensive work and is re!cognized, not only in Canada but around the wor1d as being ver'y, very expert to do that kind of work for us. Mr.

Lougheed 1 s job is one thing and that is to be a part of the negotiating team, to advice me and the Minister of Energy, and to be in on all the meetings between the federal government and the companies. For example, this week, I guess we have been on the rphone to Mr. Loughe!ed, myself and the Minister of Energy, perhaps six or seven times. I have been on the phone three times myself. He will be meeting with us over the next couple of weeks and when we get into negotiations he will be there. That is his job. Then we have some complex economic analyses to do, so we have our own team do it through thE!

Department L299 March 6, 1987 Vol XL of Finance and then we bounce that off. we give it to Mr. Lough~;;!ed 1 s firm and ask them to go through it and give us their outside opinion on the analyses that we have dOnE! so that we are sure of our numbers and sure of the approach we are trying to take. MR. FLIGHT: Mr . Speaker. MR . FUREY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. the mennber for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier.

We have situations in this Province that I am personally aware of where a construction company faced bankruptcy while they were waiting to be paid by the Newfoundland government, waiting for the budg1:d: to come down. We have municipalities that have not beE!n able to maintain basic services because the government advised them they had to wait for the budget until a vote was funded. Why the urgency in paying Mr. Lougheed 1 s law firm $400, 000 over and above the $40,000 that Lougheed himselF had alr,~ady earned?

Why the urgency that required a Special Warrant when the budget would have been brought down in a month and he could hav.::~ been paid as he should have bE!E!n paid? Why the urgency for that, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: The member for Windsor - Buchans astounds me. Do you pay for work done in 1986-87 out of the budgE!t No. 6 R /.9 9

for 1986-8 7. If we did not pay now for a bill that came in in 1986-87, the Opposition would be asking us in July how come you paid Mr . LoughE!ed' s firm for all the work that they did in 1986··-87 out of the money in 1987-88. All the municipalities are getting paid for whatever they are entitled to for 1986-87 out of l:he 1986-87 budget. If anybody has bills into the government for work done in 1986-87, WE! try to pay it out of the budget for 1986-87 because that is how we budgeted it.

For l:he member for Windsor ·­ Bu c hans to suggest t.ha t we do not pay people when they send bills in and we wait for another budget even though the work was done in the prE!Vious year, sounds to me like the member for Windsor Buchans has not bE!en in this House very long. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A supplementary, l:he hon . the member for Windsor- Buchans . MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, when the issue of Mr. Lougheed's contract was raised 1 as t year - as a matter of fact . I had the privilege of raising the issue in the first place - the then Minister of Energy (Mr.

Marshall) pointed out that we were lucky to be getting Mr. Lougheed's advicE!, ·his expertise, but that he was going to do four reports a year and the reports would bE! available to the House of Assembly. Now, I ask the Premier, where are the four reports a year that Mr . Lougheed was suppoSE!d to prepare for the Newfoundland Government for $40,000 over and 1..300 March 6, 1987 Vol XL above the $400,000? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: That is a dif:rerent question.

All of a sudden the member For Windsor - Buchans E!ScapE!S from thE! mistakE! he made in his previous question when he was asking about something being paid next year for work done this year. He was not long moving away from that one, Mr . Speaker . LE!t. me rE!mind thE• mE!rnbE!r for Windsor - Buchans, when he talks about. money going to law firms, that his own leader over th ere did not do too bad thE! last couple of years as it relates to the Ocean Ranger. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN : It was not taxpayers' money.

PREMIER PECKFORD: It is the pot calling l:he kettl e black, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! It is going right hear. please impossible to hear what is on unless the members on the give me an opportuni t.y l:o So I would ask thern to keep reasonably silent . The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member for Bellevue (Mr. Ca11an) says it was not taxpayers' monE!Y . What No . 6 I~ 300

did thE! LE!ader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) do only use governrnc::~nt stationary to go t.o solicit more business for his law firm? SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar, hE!ar! PREMIER PECKFORD: Used government stationary. If that is not taxpayers' money I would like to know what it is, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: How low and dirty are we going to allow him to go? MR. TOBIN: The truth hurts! OOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, it is called tit for tat. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, pJ.ease! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we will undertake to get the report for the han. member. No problem.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say to the Premier through you that we have Mr. Cabot Martin at $150 an hour, we have Mr. Baugh from Calgary, the Chairman of the Petroleum Directorate - L301 March 6, 1987 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! This is a final supplementary, but the hon. member is making a speech. MR. FLIGHT: -and we have Mr. Lougheed who has got a contract for $40,000. MR. SPEAKER: Would thE! hon. mE!mber pleaSE! pose a question? MR. FLIGHT: My question, Mr.

Speaker, is -and the Premier should be able to answer it ·-what specifically did Mr. Lougheed do for this Province that required him to rake an extra $400,000 out of this ProvincE•, at a time when the Premier was telling Newfoundland we were going bankrupt, that Mr. Martin could not do, that Mr. Baugh could not do and that all the lawyers in Newfoundland could not do? M R . S P E A K .. s_R : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: It is not Mr. Lougheed that the $400,000 has gone to.

It has gone to a law firm of I do not know how many -eight, ten, maybe fifteen - who have been working on E!COnomic analysis and legal opinions For the Province on the various proposals. It~ is nol~ to Mr. Lougheed, it is to a firm. As thE! Leader of the Opposition t.old us last year whE!n we questiOnE!d him on the Ocean Ranger, 'I did not get those hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars, it WE! IlL to my firm.' That is what hE! said, 'It went to my firm. I neVt'!r got it. I hardly got a CE!nt out of it. ' Of course, he never did tell us how much he got out of it. That was the way that he approachE!d it.

So it went to thE! No. 6 R301

firm, and that is number onE!, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. TULK: Who knows how much you get from the PC party every week. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: It is all public. MR. BAIRD: And it is none of your business . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: It is all public. the P. C. Party is made it public. What I get public. I It is public . The press all know rnu c h I get . fr-om have an how Now, Mr. Speaker, let me finish ansWE!ring thE! question, because there were three parts to the question. One was that Mr . Lougheed was getting $400,000. That is E!rroneous.

That is going to the firm. Mr. Lougheed is gE!tting $40,000 a year to do negotiations with our negotiating team, with the companies, and with the federal government. Secondly, he brings up Mr. Baugh . Mr. Ted Baugh is Chairman of the Offshore Petroleum Board, which is paid for by the federal government 50 per cent, ·- MR. FLIGHT : And by Newfoundland. PREMIER PECKFORD: - and by us 50 per cent. L302 March 6, 19 8 7 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I cannot shout over these people . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Baugh has a mandate on the Atlantic Accord.

HE! is not responsible for negotiating. He is getting paid by both goVE!rnrnE!nts. He cannot negotiate the offshore agreemE!nt. If the hon. ITIE!mber is the Energy critic, woi.11 he please read thE! Atlantic Accord and thE! regulations so he will know the responsibility that Mr. Baugh and l~he Offshore Petroleum Board has? They have no responsibilities to negotiate the agreemc::~nt be tWE!en the two governments and the companies. So he is wrong on l~hat scorE!. Third1y, Mr.

Martin is doing work For the government, is on our nE!gotiating tE!alll, because he has had a history, since back in 1972, of being a part of it from a legal point of view. But Mr. Martin does not have the expertise in the economic field to do the economic analysis that it is nE•cessary to do on all the complex range of taxation systems between the federal and provincial governrnent~s that have to be incorporat.E!d into the fiscal regime. He is a legal advisor, Mr. Speaker. So, the three parts to the hon. rnember 1 s question are completely erroneous, crazy, foolish, silly- MR.

FLIGHT : But. the $400,000 is not. erroneous . PREMIER PECKFORD : and I am really sad to think No. 6 R302

that the han. member for Windsor - Buchans has been in this House this long and he still does not know how the government operates. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr . Speaker, my question is also for the han. l~he Premier. Last year we were told $40,000. Now we discover it is $400,000. Like the defidt, Mr. SpeakE!r, it is still escalating. Has the Premier calculated just how much Mr.

Lougheed is ultimately going to cost this Province, and will the Premier give an undertaking to put a cap on the amount of money that this Lougheed scandal can eventually cost the Province of Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. SpE!aker, you cannot put a cap on it, like we cannot put a cap on other things. We cannot put a cap on it because you do not know how much work you are going to be as king them to do. We could have asked his leader the same que s t ion , to put a cap on how m u c h they were going to get from the Ocean Ranger thing. MR.

CALLAN: How low can you go . personal attach. PREMIER PECKFORD: That is a I am sure we would have gotten a good ansWE!r to that. No, Mr. Speaker, we cannot put a cap on it. It is impossible. L303 March 6, 1987 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD : I cannot answer, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: Why will the members opposite not give me an opportunity to respond? I do not say anything when they ask the questions. MR. TULK: Good job you do not. Ml~. SPEAKER : Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, may I haVE! the protect ion of the Chair please? MR.

SPEAKER : I asked earlier during Period if we could haVE! reasonable silence. MR. FUREY: (Inaudible), Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Question at least I did not get that comment, but:. I will check it out in Hansard. I am asking again for the hon. members on rny right to please keep silent when an answer is being given to a question. The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, in trying to anstAJer the question that was posed by the rnernber For the Strait of Belle No. 6 R303

Isle, no, we have no intention of putting a cap on it, because it is unrealistic to put a cap on it, becauSE! you do not know from time to time, during the negotiations, what additional work you are going to need to have done in an expert fashion to ensure that in your negotiating posture you are going to be getting the best deal for Newfoundland that you can. So that is an unrealistic thing to expect. It is not a scandal, it is money paid for work performed. And we will continue to pay for work that is performed to ensure that we have the best advice and the best information at our disposal.

As it relates to all the money going out, the $29 million in Special Warrants that we mentioned the other day, $27 million has been found in countervailing savings where we did a better job on other things, this saving money, so it is only really $2 million. MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER : I ask the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, if he rE!fuses to put a cap on the amount of money that this Lougheed scandal will ultimately cost the Province, will he concede that this scandal could well cost the people of Newfoundland $10 million? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Why in his question did say $10 million? Why did L304 March 6, 1987 he only you not Vol XL say $50 million or $100 million to make it more dramatic? I mean $10 million is not really enough to gE!t your question on thE! news at noon time. I mean, if I were a member in the Strait of Belle Isle's position I would never have said $10 in my qUE!Stion.

I would have said $50 million or $100 million because thE!n I would have made sure I made the news dinner time. MR. FENWICK: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . My question is for the Minister of Education. As we all know, last September saw the end of a very bitter strike between the public service unions and the government, and I was hoping, and I think everybody was hoping, that conditions would return back to normal. I have in my possession here a copy of a letter from his deputy minister, Mr.

Wheeler, dated February 18, to one of the <:.~mployees in his department as a written reprimand for being off work during the illegal strikes. My question to the minister is this: What purpose is served five months after the strike is over, after the collective agreement has been concluded, that these disciplinary measures should be sent out to the employees in the Department of Education? MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Education . MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, I will CE!rtainly take the question under advisement. It is the first I have heard of it . I have not seen the letl:er and I No. 6 R304

would appreciate it if the member would supply me with a copy. It. is certainly not the policy of this minister to reiterate on anything that has happ ened in the past. In fact, I think relations in our department before, during, and aftE!r t.hE! labour dispute, have been quite good. I am amazed to hear of such a letter. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : A supp lementary, the member for Menihek . MR . FENWICK : hon . the My supplementary is to the President of Treasury Board if he is here, or anyone else who wishes to answer in his behalf.

It is my understanding that not just the Department of Education but in fact all departments of government will be sending out letters like this to individuals who were involved in the illegal strike. Is there someone on behalf of the government who will answer - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would the hon . member please pose his question? MR. FENWICK: If is the question . MR. SPEAKER : A supplementary, there is no need for that. MR. FENWICK : Is there someone on the government side who can tell us whether or not in fact these letters are being sent out to every single individual who was on strike? MR.

SIMMS : L305 March 6, 1987 Vol XL Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: I will take the question as notice for the President of Treasury Board. I am surE! he will rE!Spond to the hon . member. MR. FENWICK : There he comes, Mr. Speaker . MR . EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Grave. There is only time quick question and answer. MR. EFFORD: Port for de a Mr. Speaker, my question was to the Prem ier, but obviously l:he Premier has left his seat so I will ask the Acting Premier, possibly, the Minister of FinanCE! (Dr. Collins).

Possibly I can agree somewhat with the amount of money that they have spent seeking expertise and advice from within the Province and from without the Province, because obviously thE! members opposite do not know what they are doing . The question to the Minister of Finance, with all the millions of dollars sent out - The Premier is in thE! House now, Mr. Speaker, so I put it to the PrE!rnier with aJ.l the millions of doLlars spent out tn studies and in seeking advice, would the Premier explain to this Hou se of Assembly and to the people of thE!

Province why th ere are in the vicin ity of 80,000 peoplE! in this Province unemployed? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. No . 6 R30S

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, primarily because years ago the Liberal Party did not. get this advicE! and thereforE! gave away l:he ~.abrader power which leaVE!S us with very fE!W job opportunities in Newfoundland, put us $49 rnill.ion in dE!bt at . Corne By Chance oil refinery $49 million, which we are trying to pay off today, and ignored the fishery. That is the reason, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The time for Oral Question has elapsed. 000 MR. KELLAND: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, thE! han . the member for Naskaupi . MR.

KELLAND : I trust the Chair is ruling on whether or not this is a point of order, or I may have to use a point of personal privilege. HoweVE!r, if I may explain, in the initial response by the Minister of Culture, Recreation an Youth (Mr. Matthews) to my first question, he welcomed me back into the House of Assembly. There is nothing wrong with that. I have been out of the House of Assembly for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.

In his final remark, as he sat down, and it somewhat cheapens my image of and my prE!Vious respect for the ministE!r, he made l:he comment, 11 You should be in your district instead of Hawaii. 11 Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to clarify that. L306 March 6, 19 8 '7 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, you can confirm to the members of this House that I informed you, through my offic~. whE!n I was leaving St. John 1 s last WEH:~k l:o return to my district for a very personal matter, which I do not intend to go into here, that your office was informed of the reasons.

I was in my district the entire time for a purE!ly personal matter of great concern to me and of great concern to members on the other side of the House, in fact. I totally object to that sort of a cheap shot by the minister. We get along well, gE!nerally s peaking . I wo u 1 d as k hi rn to withdraw that kind of remark, because it does imply that - PREMIER PECKFORD : Just a minute, you are abusing the rules of the House. MR. KELLAND: On a point of personal privilE!ge . I have asked the Speaker 1 s ruh'! on that, Mr. Premier . MR. FUREY: Relax, 1 Brian . 1 MR.

KELLAND: The implJ.cation was that while I was out of the House, for Lhe last three or four days, I was in Hawaii and not in my district. That is totally incorrect, Mr. Speaker, and you can certainly confirm for the House that I di.d advise you where I was going and why I was going. It had nothing to do with vacations which are taken when the House is closed. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier to that point of privilege. No. 6 R306

PREMIER PECKFORD: This is an abuse of the rules of this House. If every time some han. member gets up, in the heat of debate, and in the cut and thrust of debate across this House, where one member says something to the other, they are going to get up on a point of priv·ilege, there is no prima facie case herE! to establish that there is a point of privilege.

The han. member would do better to either stay in this House or go back to his district and take Beauchesne and the Standing Orders and read them, so he knows what thE! rules of this House are, so he does not abuse it. so we can gE!t on with \:he business hE~re. This is terriblE!. MR. KELLAND: To the point of privilege I Mr. Speaker, briefly. MR. SPEAKER: I am prepared to rule on that. There is no point of privilege. There is no prima facie case. There is no point of order.

I think the han. member took thE! opportunity of explaining his position in relation to a comment that was made by the han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. The han. member did write to mE! that he would be away from the House. Orders of the Day MR. SPEAKER: Address in Reply, the han. the member for Bonavista North. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. SpeakE!r, as is normal and L307 March 6, 1987 Vol XL customary in the first few speeches in the Address to the Throne Speech. I want to congratulate the two new members in this particula( setting, the member for St. John's East ExtE!rn (Mr.

Parsons) and the mE~rnber for St. John's East (Mr. Long). I am sure that they will make a great contribution to the future proceedings in the House. On that notE! I also want to congratulate the NDP Party in their recent achievement and recent accomplishment in being recognized as something. I do not know exactly what it is. I am not sure that they know themselves but they have been given some official rE!Cogni tion. I believe that. that. is gotng to serve politics in t·:his ProvincE• well. The fact that we now have the NDP Party recogniz,:-d in this House, some people get afraid over it, you know.

It !JJas inevitable. We have had an NDP Party in Canada for a number of years, and obviously it was inevitable that thE!Y werE! going to end up in this Legislature. I welcome them, and, as I have said before. I bE!liE!VE• that they are going to make a great contribution to political debate in this Province. I !JJould hope now that these two members will help us along our way to political rE!form in this ProvinCE! because we surely need political reform.

These extra two gentlemen might help us to bring the government to their senses and bring about some polit.tcal reform so that we can operate effectively and efficiently in this House according to the wishes of the people that elected us. So, Mr. Speaker. I hope it will bring about that. I think it will bring about No. 6 R307

healthy debate because it will now force all political parties to delineate their political philosophy more concisely and more prE!cisely. Mr. Speaker, it will put the Tories on the far right wherE! they belong and it will put ·the NDP on the left and leave the middle ground to the Liberals that they so rightfully own, Mr. Speaker, not by philosophy only, but by actions that have been seen throughout this country, the Liberal party squarely in the middle. I get amused by the fact that the other two are trying to squeeze us out. Mr.

Speaker, as long as we have the members that are presently in this caucus there is no way that any political party is going to squeeze us from thE! center. There is no way. Mr. Speaker, it will do that. So I welcome the NDP party to the House and I bE!lieve, as I have said, it will have these great benefits. MR . FENWICK: Before you go any the NDP or the Party, it is not please. MR . LUSH : further, it is New Democratic the NDP party, Okay, sorry. The New Democratic Party. Again, I am not used to having to refer to that.

I apologize and I can assure the han. gentleman that it will not be said any more, it will not be said any more not by this han. gentleman - the New Democratic Party. I wondered though whether both hon. gE!ntleman of the NDP really reflected upon and thought about why the government was so generous in complying with t:heir wishes in recognizing them.

I wondered whether they ever thought of that l308 March 6, 1987 Vol XL and I would ask thE!m to CE!rtainly give great heed to t:he o1d adage, 1 Beware of Greeks bearing gifts. 1 At one point I got a perverted notion thinking that maybe t:he government thought if we give the hon. gentlemen enough rope, they wiJ.l hang themsE!lves. In any event, maybe that is a perverb?.d notion. I do caution the hon. gentleman to beware of why the government uncharacteristicly complied with their wisht "'S so quickly and so promptly. In any event, Mr.

Speaker, without belabouring the point, I certainly am proud as one member of this House that they do have their rightful recognition. As I say again, I hope that now that both groups together will certainly push this government for political reform. That is l:he important thing that we got to have, political reform in this House. One of the most backward houses in all of Canada with respect to political reform is this present Assembly. This is one of the most backward parliaments in all of the jurisdictions throughout Canada.

I would hope that this government will move quickly on the issues that we have identified and that we will continue to identify and press for so that we can all do our jobs effectively and efficiently. MR. CALLAN : Do not hold your breath . MR. DAWE: That is an awful statement . MR. LUSH: That is right. I get into that at point. in time. I the Throne Speech. No. 6 do not tAJ a n l: to thi s particular want to gc .. t:. to R308

I want to say, Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to condemn the initiatives and the policies that are E!nunicated in this particular document, as little as they are, as minimal, and as miniscule as they are. It is not my intention to condemn them because any initiative taken by this government has to be lauded and praised and commended. So it is certainly not my intE!ntion to condemn the initiatives taken but rather to emphasis that they do not go far enough to meet the needs of our people in the Province today. That, Mr.

Speaker, will form the thE!me, if you will, in my approach to this whole Throne Speech today. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if han. members have noticed, I think the change and shade of colour is very significant . I think it symbolizes, illustrates and demonstrates what is happening to the government today. You will notice in 1985 it was dark, dark, deep Tory blue. You will notice in 1987, it. is getting a lot lighter. I think that symboliZE!S thE! fact that this government does not know where it is going politically. You never know, the next Throne Speech could be pink because it is changing.

Now I do not know what 1986 was like but I did notice when I was reading the Throne Speech this dramatic change in colour from the Throne Speech of 1985 to the Throne Speech of 1987 and I think that is symbo1ic of a government that. does not know where it is philosophically; a government that is waffling and searching as to where it should be. 1986, yes, it is much the same, no that is a little deeper altogether, it is really deep Tory blue the 1986, it. was deep Tory blue, but the 1987 L309 March 6, 1987 Vol XL one a t r erne n do u_s change . So l: h a L demonstrates it, Mr.

SpeakE!r, morE! emphatically as we can see. As I have said before, I think this symbolizes what is happening to the Tory Party, waffling and searching. The Premier did say he was trying to move to the centre. ImaginE! a Tory Party moving to the centre in the political spectrum. No, Mr. Speaker, the presence of the N.D.P. now will force us all to take our rightful position in l:he political scheme of things. But, Mr. SpeakE!r, the Throne Speech itself was one of the longest, one of the most bod.ng, one of the most uninspiring Throne Speeches I have ever had to sit through in this Honourable House.

Its only saving grace, Mr. Speaker, was that His Honour did a marvelous job rE!ading it. and that obviously came from His Honour's vast experience as a politican and he wa s a b 1 e to g i v e it: the rig h t intonation, the right annunciation, the right modulation for otherwisE!, it would have put us all to sleep. If read by a less capable gentleman we would have all gone to sleep in this Honourable House. Mr. Speaker, what did it. say in fact? What did it say in essence? I see the ThronE! SpE!ech divided into two parts. Part one was the normal, typical diatribe that this government has been producing.

The usual rhE•toric, self-glorification, backpatting, backslaping, the PrE!mier taking credit for everything that has happened in the Province in the past few months. Mentioned as successes, proclaimE!d sucCE!sses, purporb~d successes was F:ishery Products International, the nE!W gold m:ine on the Southwl~S t Coast, No. 6 R309

the reactivation of the fluorspar mine at St. Lawrence, the rehabilitation and the modification of the paper mills at Grand Falls and Corner Brook, the employment opportunities at the Marystown Shipyard and the start of the rehabilitation of thE! ComE! By Chance oil refinery. rhe PrE!miE!r tried to take credit for every development and every activity that happened in this Province in the past twelve months. He tried to take credit for everything expect the hugh snowfalls and the freezing rain that we have had all Winter. Mr.

Speaker, I say this to the Premier and to han. gentlemen opposite, if they are going to take credit for the sunshine, they have to be blamed for the rain. I am going to get into the rain shortly, Mr. Speaker. Part two of this document, Mr. Speaker, was the weakest. That, I suppose, dealt with the government's economic strategy, its economic plans, its economic revial and job creation programmes. Now, Mr. Speaker, this was the Throne Speech that everybody in this Province has been waiting for. This was the ThronE!

SpE!e c h that the people of this Province, particularly the unemployed people, had been looking for for months and months because this was the Throne Speech that was going to respond to t~he Royal Commission on Employment and on Unemployment. This was the Throne Speech that was going to demonstrate how effectively and how far thE! government was going to go in acting upon the recommendations of the House Royal Commission. Now, Mr. Speaker, finally get? Mr. what did Speaker, they what L310 March 6, 1987 Vol XL did they finally get when this Throne Speech came? What were they waiting for?

They were waiting eagerly, expectations raised so high, becaus1'.! in 1985 thE! Premier called an election on the heels of signing the Atlantic Accord, thE! biggE!St developmE!nt in this Province . since the completion of the Newfoundland railway. So the Premier decidE!d he would take advantagE! of that, and hE! cal1E!d an election, an unnecessary one, mind you, but he called the election. What was the election caJ.led for? To give the Premier a mandate to create jobs. I did not think that a government had to ask for that mandate, to create jobs. I thought that was an understanding.

I thought that was a natural responsibility. MR. TULK: We would let them do it . MR. LUSH: That is right . WE! dtd nol:. st~op thE!m. I thought that was a natural responsibility for a government to create jobs. But they asked for the mandate to create the jobs. And, of coursE!, they were going to cr1:!ate 1110re jobs than ever we had seen before. Why? Because they had a Tory government in Ottawa. They had their buddies on s'ide there. They were going to inflict prosperity on us, along with the PremiE!r.

So here we WE!re wai t.ing for this tremendous job development programme, waiting for this infliction of prosperity. The PrE!mier got thE! mandate and what happened? He did not know how to handle the mandate that he had received. He did not know how to get this Province moving. They had no ideas of t:he kind of economic policies and financial No. 6 R310

programmes that they had to put in place to create jobs in this Province. So, how did the Premier get himself off the hook of this great commitment to the people of this ProvincE! of job crE!ation? A favorite ploy by government, ineffective governments, inefficient governments, incompetent governments, a favorite ploy, set up a Royal Commission on employment and unemployment. Now, Mr. Speaker, I did not believe, really I tried to put the best foot forward and tried to use my bE!St motives, that thE! PrE!mier had not done this as a ploy. as a stalling tactic. I did not believe that.

I really believed that the Premier would heed the recommendations of the Royal Co rnm i s s i o n . 8 u t i f t h i s i s a n y indication of how serious the government are with respect to adopting the recommendations of the Royal Commission, then, Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that this effort was· a total waste. I am afraid that the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment was a waste of the time and effort of the Commissioners, a waste of the time and effort of the people who appeared before that Commission, and more significantly, a waste of the millions of dollars that we have spent on this Commission.

Did we ever get the figures on this Royal Commi s sian, as to what it cost? It was over $2 million. So, Mr. SpE!aker, if the extent to which the government are going to act upon the recommendations of the Royal Commission is illustrated in this Throne Speech of 1987, then I reiterate and I repeat, the effort was a wasted one. The time and effort put in L311 March 6, 1987 Vol XL. by thE! Commissioners was a wastE!d one, and the $2 million of taxpaye!rs 1 money that WE! spE!nt has gone down the tube. Mr.

Speaker, let us take a look at the recommendations by the Commission they did dE!cide to act upon. rhe first series 'of recommendations that they decided to act upon had to do u.rit.h education. It says, 11ThE! Royal Commission emphasizes the importance of the education systE!fn in economic development. 11 So, of course they are going to do certain things.

I want to refer to the paragraph on page 11 which says, 11Teachers too will be required to possess not only the traditional skills but also an improved ability to stay current in an evolving school system11 -Fine! -11while b~'!ing challenged by economic and social changes faster and more profound than have occurred at any previous time in our history. In conseqUE!nce, My Governme!nt., in conjunction with the Memorial University of NE!Wfoundland and the Newfoundland Teachers Association, will undertake a major review of the teacher training programmes at Memorial University.11 Now, Mr.

Speaker, I do not know whether hon. members have recognized it. Did they have some say in the preparation of this or is it just a one man show? I do not know to what extent Cabinet MinistE!rs and backbE!nchers haVE! an input into the preparation of Lhe Throne Speech because I have never been there but. I certainly would not bE! a part of a team that did not allow me to have some input, to have some influence in what went in there. So I do not know whether han. No. 6 R31l.

gentlemen realize but this paragraph is an insult to the Faculty of Education. Why single out, why specify the Faculty of Education as needing a review? Is that the only faculty in that university that needs a review? Why i d e n t if y that fa c u 1 t y ? I k now it is an important faculty, Mr. SpeakE!r, but what I would suggest is that they have an entire review of the total university, of all faculties and all programmes. MR. BAIRD : In other words, you agrE!e with it but it does not go far enough, is that it? MR. LUSH: Of course, and I hope that I have made myself clear.

I think by singling out the Faculty of Education it is an insult, as if they were not doing their job, as if their programmes were inadequate. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that for the future development and for the future education of the young people of this Province, we do not on 1 y need a review oF the Fa c u 1 t y of Education, we need a rE!View of all Faculties to ensure that all faculties are keeping abreast of technological development and that our young people are being adequately and properly trained for the future.

So I disagree with the singling out and the identifying of the Faculty of Education only. Well, Mr. Speaker, that was a grE!at enlightenmE!nt from the Royal Commission. They needed a Royal Commission to tE!ll them that. They needed a Royal Commission to tell thE!fn t.hat we needed to look at our educational system. Th,?.n it comes on to talking about L312 March 6, 1987 Vol XL the community colleges. We are going to have three. We do not know how much they are going to cost. We have no idea what typE!S of programmes are going to bE! in thEHn.

We do not know who the instructors are going to be, where they arE! going to come from, whether they are going to come f~om the university, the present staff there now, or whether they are going to be new jobs or whether they are going t:.o be brought in from other parts of the world. We have no idea of what: is going to happen with respect to instructors, no ideas about t.uhat kinds of programmes they are going to offer and, of course, we do not know where they are going to be located. I expect there is lobbying going on now . We do not know where these thr,?.e are going to bE! locatE!d.

That is going to be interpreting information. Maybe t:he next person on t:he government side who speaks can answer some of these questions on whether there has been a cost analysis done of these three community collegE!. What j_s that going to do to the university? Is that going to water down thE! resources of the university? Is that going to makE! our uniVE!rsity less effective? It should not, if we have the financial resources to do it. But I am wondering whether we have the financial resources.

Certainly it cannot downgrade the already very restricted style in which the University operates right now from a financial point of view particularly. Mr. Speaker, then it moues into jobs. What are the initiatives with respect to jobs? Well, Mr. SpE!aker, it talks about the Royal Commission again and how it certainly addressed this problem and certainly urged the government No. 6 R312

to do something about job creation in this Province. So it states that the government would introduce a comprehensive package of programmes which are designed to improve the Province's effectiveness in creating meaningful jobs. Now, Mr. Speaker, if they call this a comprehensive package, then there is no doubt that this Province is going to be suffering from high levels of unemployment for a long time. What is the first initiative?

"First, commencing in April of this YE!ar, My GoVE!rnment will be instituting major creation initiatives in the form of long term projects in such areas as park improvements, silviculture, fisheries enhancement, agriculture, and tourism. 11 Now, Mr. Speaker, did we need to spend $2 million on a Royal Commission to come up with that great enlightening job creation programme. Park improvements, Mr. Speaker: What great creativity, what great innovativeness! Park improvernE!nts, Mr. Speaker, have have been going on since time immemorial. Park improvements! S i 1 vi c u 1 t u r e : Now, M r .

Speaker , that is certainly welcome news, because this government has not spent too much money on silviculture. But again we did not need the Royal Commission to tell us that we needed that. The loggers in Gamba and Indian Bay have been telling me this for years, that we need silviculture and a more effective forest management programme in the area of Bonavista North. We did not need to spend $2 million o.n that. Any logger in Gamba, Indian Bay, Hare Bay, CE!nterville, any logger there could have told the government that. L313 March 6, 1987 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, did we need the Royal Commission to tell us that we needed job creation with resp~?.ct to fisheries E!nhancement? Did we need the Royal Comrni s s ion to b'! 11 us that we needed jobs in agriculture and tourism, that that was an area in which we could employ Newfoundlanders? Mr. SpE!akE!r. that is something for thE! people who waited in this Province, to hear about a job creation programme, awaiting the government's rE!SponSE! to the Royal Commission. Here we are going to get involved in job creation in park improvements, fisheries enhancement programmes, agriculture, tourism, and silviculture. Mr.

Speaker·, thE! government to my knowledge has been in those areas for some time. Then the SE!COnd initiative is the one with respect to the private sector involvement and the new programme which will be established to be cost-shared on a S0/50 basis, somE:~thing that: tAJe have rE!COmmE!nded actually along those 'Lines for a long time. I commend the government on this particular initiative. I COllllllend them, but did we haVE! to spend $2 million? Did we have to have a Royal Commission? Did we have to spend $2 million on a Royal Commission to tell us to take action in these two areas? Mr.

SpE!a k E!r, it shows a gov ernmE! nt bereft of ideas, bankrupt of ·ideas to haVE! to wait for a Royal Commission before they could announce these rather skimpy, rather miniscule job creation programmE!S for thE! people of this Province. Then, Mr. Speaker, they go on to talk about their community development programme, l~he social services programme. Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that the government No. 6 R313

should boast too much about it . MR. BREfT: No, we will (inaudible.) MR. LUSH: Min. Speaker, I will say this to the hon. 1ninister: Again, I commend any initiative to create jobs for our people, but I am not so sure that this programmE! is as effective as the minister would J.ike for' it. to be. The programme pays too 1 itt 1 e in wages . As a matter of fact, I am presently working on a case, Mr. Minister, where a lady is working on this community development programme where her salary is $15 a week beU:er than if she were on social services, if she stayed home on social services, $15 a week better. Now, Mr.

Speaker- MR. TULK : And no drug card . MR. LUSH: No drug card and none of the benefits that one receives when they are on social services. I think t.his nE!eds to be looked at. What j.s thE! motive to go to work? A person can stay home in bed and collect just $15 less by getting up every morning at 7:00 a.m. and going thr 'ough the traffic and all the frustrations that come from a working mother with a home to maintain and, after all of this effort, $15 a week more. Mr. Speaker, there is nothing wrong wj th thE! programme, nothing wrong with the progra1nme. MR. BREl"T: That is $60 a month . MR.

LUSH: Is the minister saying that that means that that is good? MR. BRETT: L314 March 6, 1987 Vol XL I am not saying i l:. is good. I am saying it is betlE!r than staying home (inaudible.) MR. LUSH: What l:.he minister does not realize that it puts these people in a more frustrating position than they were before because before they got the job, they had a drug card or if there was any excessive medical bills, they would be taking care of .

If they ran into trouble in other areas, maybe the government in an emergency case came to help l:hem but, once they got on these programrnE!S, thE!Y arE! on their own and For $15 a week morE!, they are supposed to be able l:.o take care:~ of all of t:he financial problems, of all the needs that l:hey will c?.ncountc?.r with that $15. No, Mr. Speaker, il: . is too, too little. All it does, the other negativity about it, is take them off social services for a fE!W WE!E!ks and then put them on UI. The programme that T do like, Mr. SpE!aker, again, it is relatE!d to education, is l:he teacher a"id programmE!.

But again they arE! only th~::'re for t:en months. They have a programme they can put them on for u~n months to fit in tAli th the school YE!ar from June to September . But after being there for ten months doing a great job, these teacher aids feel proud about the fact, as the minister indicated that they are working, making a contribution. But at thE! end of the ten months they are laid off and put on UI. So, Mr. Speaker, there are some deficienciE!S in this programmE!, but again, I welcome the progra111me to an E!Xtent.

I would hopE! that the minister will look at improving it to see if we cannot give them a few more dollars and to see if we cannot turn some of No. 6 R314-

these jobs into permanent jobs . Maybe it the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) that will have to do t.ha t to rna kE! these teacher aids, that are certainly needed, maybe he can make these permanent. Would the Minister of Education look at hE!lping the Department of Social Services who have gotten those peopJ.e in there as tE!aChE!r aids, but the prob1ern that most of thE!m find is it is a dE!adend, it is a dead street, Mr. Speaker. At the end of ten months, they are going to be laid off. MR . WARREN: His time is up, Mr. Speaker. MR. LUSH: I do not think so. certain1y take the advice Speaker, but not the - MR .

SPEAKER (Greening) : The hon. member has twenty-five minutes left. MR. LUSH: I will of Mr. about So, Mr. Speaker, I just make those suggestions in the hope that the minister u..li.ll try to improve that programmE!, improve it in terms of its remuneration, in terms of its salary, and improve it in terms of trying to find long term employment for these people. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech goes on to address the guaranteed income, if you will. It says, 11 Directly related to this theme is the question of -an appropriate income support system that best fits the particular characteristics of our situation.

Both the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment and the Forget Commission on Unemployment Insurance have made recommendation in this regard. 11 • So both these commissions looked L31 5 March 6, 1987 Vol XL that, is an idE!a by the Liberal tiiTIE!, a SE!CUrit .y or a guarantE'I?.d what is this at that. Again, being espoused Party for some income system income. Now government say do? they are going l:o Well, first of all, they giVE! us an ominous sign. They say, 11 This is a most complex issue. 11 Now, if it is a complex issue, forget about it with this crowd.

It will never see the light of day because they could not deal with a complex issue. That is to signify the bad news, Mr. Speaker. 11 This is a most complex issue and one tAJhich comes under thE! rE!Sponsibility of both the Federal and the Provincial jurisdictions. 11 MR. TULK: You could have another federal/provincial row out of that. MR.

LUSH: That is right . 11 I am happy to announCE! that My Government has established a task force of ministers and officials to fully analyse these proposals in preparation for constructed discussions with the appropriate federal authorities to see how such a programme can be established without destructive social impact. 11 I wtll make a prediction: This government, in its ltfe, because its life ts not very long, will never deal with this issue. That is my prediction. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Now, let us see where else t:hey have gone, Mr. Speaker.

The other area on which they could not acl: until they spent this $2 million and got the recommendations of the No. 6 R3l.S

Royal Commission was to look into the government lending agencies, Rural Development and the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. They had to await this study. What they are going to do of course, it says, 11 First, the Regulations of the Rural Development Authority arE! being amended, and appropriate funding provided, to allow an expanded lending programme to include service sector enterprises. 11 Now, Mr. Speaker, that is something that all han. members I am sure have encountered before. We thought that the Rural Development Authority was too restrictive in its lending policy.

We recommended that OVE!r the years and they have had all sorts of businesses to apply but to be told that it was restricted to the manufacturing industry. Well now, they have finally seen the light of day and, again, I commend them on that initiative, Mr. Speaker. That is a good thing. It is a good initiative. 11 Second, the t.E!rm lending programme of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation will be broadened to include assistance to industries and economic enterprises in the service sector. 11 That is a good move. It only puzzles me why it was not made before. MR.

WARREN: What in the Throne Speech do you not like? MR. LUSH: If the han. gE!ntleman heard me in the beginning I gave the

preamble and pointed out what it. was. It was not so rnuch that I did not like what was here, it was number '-316 March 6, 1987 Vol XL one, what was not here and whether or not this government was going to produce on what they had here. According to the past performance of this government, in terms of measuring up to the promises madE! in the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, I am not very hopeful.

So, for the han. gentleman, I will say it again, I arn basically making two points about the Throne Speech: One, I am not condemning any of the economic measures that are in it, I am saying that the government did not go far enough. That is my condemnation. They did not go far enough, they did not go far enough in terms of carrying out the recommendations of the Royal Commission. And secondly, it is my doubts that they will measure up. Those ar'(:! my concerns, Mr. Speaker. The question that must be asked, Mr. Speaker, is particularly tJJith respect to jobs . We have here a promise of 6, 000 jobs.

The qUE!Stion that must be askE!d and I hope hon. members will address it, is this above and beyond the normal programmes that the government would do in all of these areas because I have known activities, particularly in the Summer and all of these, park improvements, a little bit of silviculture, fisheries enhancement, agriculture and tourism . Now, is this j us t: l: he ongoing programme or is this above and beyond? Are these 6, 000 jobs above and beyond what the government would have done anyway or what they did last year? We do not know.

The other question, in terms of my lack of confidence in the government carrying out. thE!SE! rather few measures, .is this: Has this Premier or this goVE!rnment No. 6 R316

every made promiSE!S with jobs before? Have they ever done that? Is this first time ever they said they were going to do something with jobs? Is this thE! first time that they said that they were going to create jobs? Is this the first t.i1ne? MR. TULK: Since 1979 we were supposed to get 40,500 jobs. MR. LUSH: Ah, ha, Mr. Speaker, that is the rub. In 1979 l:he Premier carne out and said he was going to create 40, 500 jobs. What happened? From 1980 to 1986 the Province lost 3,000 jobs. We lost 3,000 jobs in the span or in the lifetime of this particular Premier.

In the lifetime of this particular Premier, we have lost 3,000 jobs. MR. TULK: And that is not you s~ying that. MR. LUSH: That is not me saying that. That is the House commission and it is proven by Stats Canada. It has been known for some time. They 1ost 3,000 jobs. Translated into a percentage, we had a net loss of 1 per cent during that period. We had a net loss of 1 per cent

whereas the nat:ion had a net gain of 6 per cent. This Province had a net loss of 1 per cent with jobs and the nation had a net gain of 6 per cent. So, Mr. Speaker, YE!S, we have talked about jobs before. It is a question of credibility. Will this government keep its promise and measure up to its ThronE! Speech commitments of creating 6,000 jobs? Will they do that?

I certainly hope they do and I hope that I do not have to stand in this House next Spring to say and L317 March 6, 1987 Vol XL to comE! back to commitments that were made, to come back to the commitments, re the community colleges and the commitments to, re the review of the Faculty of Education and commi trnents, re t.he fine tuning and the beefing up and making the rules morE! fl,?.xible with respect thE! lE!nding agend.E!S of the government. I hope that all of that wi 11 bE! donE! but , M r . Speaker, I am not too hopeful. The economic and financial initiatives in this Throne Speech, Mr.

SpeakE!r, will do very little to decrease unemployment leve1s in this Province . It wi 1.1 do very , very little. Mr. Speaker, very significantly as well were issUE!S not addressed in this fhron1?. Speech. For example, Mr. Speaker, the inshore fisheries. I am not so su1ne that the industry was mentioned, the inshore fisheries as such. I am not sure that it was ment.ionE!d in the Throne Speech in tc:~rms of l:he initiative takE!n by the governmE!nt to help this industry to g1?.t going. We mE!ntioned FPI but thE!re was no mention about the inshore fishE!ries.

This is thE! kind of idE>.as we get from han. gentle1nen opposite. They are trying to duck out from their responsibility by saying that their fight, re the Canada/France agreement, is their effort, is their idea of hE!lping out the inshore fishery. Mr. SpE!aker, if that is the extE!nt of their policy, as important as that is in terms of having a supply of fish available for our inshore fishermen, that is certainly important, but, Mr. SpeakE!r, this government cannot get of the hook by playing a rhetorical game like that. Mr. Speaker, that is just words and LlJe No. 6 R31.7

want action. Well, there was no mention of it. AnothE!r issUE!, Your Honour, that should have been addressed in this Throne Speech was the financial position of this Province. Now, normally one does not talk about a financial situation in a Throne Speech.

That is left to the budget, but it was most important that there be some specific statement made about the financial position in this Province in the Throne Speech because just days beforE! the Throne Speech, we had the Premier making these erratic and irresponsible st.atemE!nls about the financial position of this ProvincE!, about how we were going to be in the same economic mess that we were in in the dirty thirties; that we were going to be in the same economic mess that caused us to lose our Responsible Government when we were taken over by a Commission of Government. Now, Mr .

Speaker, these are really dramatic statements . MR. TULK : I wonder wo u 1 d p eo p 1 e 1 o o k for a comrrd.ss:i .on now. MR. LUSH : I do not think the people will look for a commission now. I think they will look to this side. They will look for people that can carry on the job. The Premier made these erratic, irrational and irresponsible statements. Mr. Speaker, can you imagine what would happen to a business if the chief executive officer went on and said that about their particular business, 'that within two years they would be bankrupt.' How fast would would that expedite the path to bankruptcy?

They would be bankrupt within two weeks, L318 March 6, 1987 Vol XL overnight. Well, the Prc::~nrier made these rE!marks. But then hE! comes back the next day and says, 'well, really it is not that bad. I used a little bit of histrionics, a bit of exaggeration, a bit of hyperbole, a bit of theatrics and this kind of thing to try and convince the federal governmE!nt of how serious the financial situation of this Province is.' Well, Mr. Speaker. I would say what the Premier did was cause the federal government to lose all confidence in the Premier. He must have lost all credibility with the federal government.

He certainly lost it with the people of this Province and hE! CE!rtainly lost it, I am sure, with the federal goVE!rnment when we have a Premier, the chief -- MR. TULK : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK: I wonder if Your Honour would try to maintain some sense of order in this House because it seems as if we have a Cabinet meeting going on over there . MR. FLIGHT: We cannot hear a word, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: I would ask the hon . my left to please voices down and sit in MR. LUSH: Mr . Speaker, then the Finance (Dr.

Coll'ins) back up the Premier, gentlemen to keep their your seats. Minister of C OlnE! S on to COinE!S on to say that the Province ois in a financial plight. He gOE!S on to say that the deft cit will be increased. The hon. gc~ntleman No. 6 R318

projected a deficit in May of $4-9 rnillion. In the Spring the han. gentleman announces a deficit of $4-9 million. In his rntd-term report, he mE!ntions a de!fi cit of $53 million. Now, Mr. Speaker, That is not too bad, I suppose, the Premier says, on a $2 bi1lion budget. That is not too, too bad to predict that you are going to be $4-9 miJ.lion, and then, in mtd--term, to be $53 miJ.lion. But, Mr. Speaker, hear this!

The mtnister received a transfer payment from the fE!deral government that was not expected, that thE!Y did not count on, that they were not supposed to get because of - I was going to say manipulation of the figures but that is not the right word something with the population. The population was up or something. Because of the method in which they calculate the transfer figures, the federal gove•rnmE!nt discovered that they owed Newfoundland $32 million. The ministE!r got $32 miJ.lion that he did not count on in his estimates, that he did not anticipate.

And the deficit was still $53 miJ.lion, even considering that windfall. DR. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I rise just because I got thE! tail end of some garbled story over there. I did not want thE! han. mE!mber to confuse Hansard with all sorts of strange, weird, and convoluted statements. So I would just wonder if he would go over and ungarble that last comment he made. L319 March 6, 1987 Uol XL MR. SPEAKER: To that point o.f order? MR. LUSH: No~--Mr-:-SpeakE!r, I am not on a point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: There is no point of order. The han. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, on top of that l~hen we hear Mr. Crosbie saying last week that the minister tAJas given $46 million to help reduce the deficit. Forty-six and thirty-two, that is seventy-eight they have received, $78 million. Then, on top of that, we hear that the minister went to Ottawa again after that and asked for $150 million to bring down the Province's deficit. So, Mr. Speaker, the minister is going l:o have a lot to answer for when we get into the Budget Speech. MR.

SIMMS: Why are you into this now in Address in Reply? r1.R. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I got into it because there was such a feeling crea l:ed in this Province about the financial mess that we were in by both the Premier and the MinistE!r' of Finance that it should have been alluded to in the Throne Speech to allay the fears of Newfoundlanders and the business community. To try and keep l:he investment climate half deCE!nt in this Province, the Minis tc:!r of Finance should have insistE!d that there was some statement in the Throne Speech about the finances of this Province. But, Mr. Speaker, no mention of that.

No. 6 R319

So, Mr. Speaker, with the financial mess that we were in, it was little wonder that when the Premier heard of this Canada/French fish deal that he said. 11 I arn going to get onto this issue, 11 in his MachiavelLian style. There is no wonder, Mr. Speaker, that he lashed onto that to try and wiggle and squiggle and divert and digress public attention away from this issue. Who would not? What government would not? Found in this pol'i tical mess, who wou1d not try and put it under the carpet by resurrecting this red herring, Mr. Speaker, of the Canada/France deal? Let me say from the beginning, Mr.

Speaker, that there is no one, but no one, in this Province, but condemns that agreement, no one but no one condemns that deal. MR. MATTHEWS: You are coming clean early . MR. LUSH: We will be telling you Premier coming clean moment. about the too in a Mr. Speaker. this was the issue that they were going to wrap themselves in the flag again, to stand up for Newfoundland and to be proud to be Newfoundlanders. Mr.

Speaker, let me tell you, if I were in the hon. member's position, in a Province that has got the highest unemployment in Canada, that has got the lowest per capita income, that has got the highest public debt in Canada, Mr. Speaker, I would stand up for Newfoundland too. If I were deciding the public policies of a Province that had the lowest average income in Canada, that had an incomE! SE!VE!ral thousand dollars below the poverty line. I would stand up for Newfoundland too. L320 March 6, 1987 Vol XL But with these, Mr.

Speaker, startling E!COnomic figures, do you think anybody in Newfoundland is believing that these people are standing up for Newfoundland? ThE!Y should not be sitting down! They should be standing up for twenty-four hours! Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, these statistics do not make me proud to be a Newfoundlander. The highest UnE!mployrnent in the country, the lowest per capita income, the largest public debt per capita. These are some things to make you proud to bE! a NE!Wfoundlander. Mr. Speaker, indeed the actions of han. members opposite makE! me ashamed to be a Newfound1ander. Now, Mr.

Speaker, what happened on the Canada/France fish deal? Did the PrE!mier do thE! honourable thing when he found out this, to open this House and to get the ideas and the suggestions of all members? I mean certainly goodness out of seventeen people we would have some ideas, we would have some suggestions, Mr. SpeakE!r, but no a complete disregard, complete disrespr:!ct for the House of Ass E!mbly! Why? Because the Premier could not stage the fight as well in this House, Mr.

Speaker, he could not manage thE! press as well, calling press conferences all over the place, calling press conferences in this city, on national open lines I Mr. Speaker I on national television, gone to Ottawa. The matter was debated everywhere publicly, but where:~ it should have beE!n debated, in this House, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: But it is being debated now . are you talking about? No. 6 What R320

MR. LUSH : Oh, of course! After the fact, Mr. Speaker, after the PremiE!r thought he made his political point, after he thought he convinced the Newfoundland people, but hE! would not open the House . Mr. Speaker, that is a sign of the arrogance of a government when they deny the people the chance of public dE!bate in their Parliament on an issue as large and of l:he magnitudE! of this problem. To not open the House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, demonstrates the arrogance of the government. It also demonstrates the insincerity of the Premier. It also leaves room, Mr.

SpeakE!r, for a suspicion of motives when we get onto an issue likE! this and to not debate it where it should have been. I believe that had this House opened and got an all-party resolution and come up with other suggestions and other ideas of how we could deal with this issue, that possibly we could have solved it. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Machiavellian tactics of the Premier, the sabre rattling, Mr. Speaker, do not seem to have worked. I was highJ.y amuse!d at the Premier when he came from the Premier 1 s meeting saying what a great victory it was.

He got these premiers together in this great meeting and, of course, they also had their own personal little gripes, they did not like the lack of consultation, they did not like that, and the Premier 1 s Tory buddy tried to make thE! people believe that it was a great meeting too. 1 0h yes, we agree that the federal government should have consulted with NE!Wfoundland, and we want thc':!m to consult with us too. Oh yes, but we cannot get into that France deal that is a little too L321 March 6, 1987 Vol XL mE! s s y . But we ask that you rE!View it, Mr. Prime Minister. 1 What a great victory. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, what a victory it was. So the Premier, Mr . Speaker, used thE! wrong approach, as he has done $0 often in the past. Now, Mr. Speaker, there was no mention in the Throne Speech of how this govern men l:. intend s to improve labour relations in this Province. Mr. Speaker, we have got a refinery opened that this government had no more to do w'i l:h than I have had to do with electrical developments in Moscow. They had no more to do with, it fell into their laps and thE!Y did not have sense E!nough to be able to establish the right labour conditions under which this development could take place.

They did not have sense enough! They got one big job that came to them and they did not have the intelligence or the common sense enough to get that thing developed smoothly! I knoiAJ it carne through a 1.ack of experienCE!. They werE! nE!VE!r USE!d to having job creation of that magnitude. Mr.

Speaker, there was no reference to labour rnanagemc~nt relations in this Province, no mention of the efforts that the government are going to take over the next little while to try and make labour rE!lations rE!ach a level that will encourage development in this Province, that will encourage investors to be here, that wi 11 aJ.low J.abou r, management and government to work cooperatively together. What time are this government going to do something about this? What time are they going to do something? Are they just going to let labour relations in this ProvincE! go· on and deteriorate? Mr. Speaker, No. 6 R32l

there is a great educational programme needed here and it has got to be done cooperatively between government, business and labour. It is time that this government got moving instead of just letting things go without any action. Mr . Speaker, in summation I want t.o say that I do not think that the initiatives taken in this budget are going to go very far in terms of raising the levels of employment in this ProvinCE!. I do not think the initiatives are going to go very far, they arE! too little.

But that is not: to condemn the job creation initiatives, it is to say that we believe that it represents little or no action at all with respect. to the recommE!ndations of the Royal Commission. It must bE:' an insult to the commissioners. It. looks like a total waste of money if this rE!prE!Sents the dE!grE!E! to which the government are going to act on these recommendations. Mr. Speaker, we nec~d a new fn~sh vision in this Province. We neE!d a new vision. We need a more enlightened view of Canada. We need a government that is going to be determined to work hard in cooperating with the federal government.

We need a government that. tn cooperation wt th the federal government, is going to ensure that we get all of the finances that we are entitled to by right and all of the finances that we are entitled by the responstbility of the federal government to make better, to raise the levels of employment in this Province. We need a provincial government that is going to act seriously. We need a provincial government, Mr . Speaker, that can negotiate L322 March 6, 1987 Vol XL effectively and efficiently with thE! fE!dE!ral goVE!rnmE!nt.

WE! nE!E!d a government that will take fresh and nE!W approa c hE! s to economic development in this Province. The old tired approachE!S. Mr. SpeakE!r', have not worked so we need new approaches and nE!W techn:iqUE!S. WE! n~::~ed a government that is 111ore conciliatory. MR. SPEAKER: Order. pleasE!! The hon. member's time is up. MR. LUSH: I am just going to finish, Mr. Speaker. We need a government that is going to be more conciliatory and more productive in terms of its dealing with the federal government and with labour in this Province. Mr.

Speaker, if this dOE!S not: happen I have gr(~at fears as to what is going to happE!n to this Province economically, financ.i.ally and socially. Thank you . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Greening_l : The hon . the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . First. and foremost, Mr. Speaker, I bel ·iev1:! I should congratulate the hon. mernber For Bonavis·ta North (Mr. Lush). He is one of the most intelligent, one of Lhe most honest mE!mbers of the Liberal Opposition. No . 6 R322

Now, Mr. Speaker, I believe I would like to start off with the last subject the han. member was speaking about, and that was the French cod war and the fact that the House of Assembly should haVE! been called together. I have a copy of a letter that was writ.ten to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) on February 13 by the Premier of the Province. The Pre!mier at that time sugge!sted to the Leader of the Opposition, and to the LE!ader of the NDP, that we all should join together, have a two day debate and send a unanimous resolution to Ottawa.

It is quite interesting to note that the Leader of the NDP Party agreed that we should go as a united voice from this ProvinCE! to the federal government in Ottawa. Now, what did the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Barry) do? I understand, Mr. Speaker, from The Sunday Express says that the Liberal Caucus have been talking about their leader and that most of the members of the Liberal Party did not know what their leader was doing. I will come to that a little later, Mr. Speaker. Hou.JevE•r, the!

LE!ader of the Liberal Party wrote back to the Premier on the samE! day and said, 11 Yes, we a g r e e b u t , h o 1 d on now , i n o r de r for us to agree tb let you open the House we want to talk about other things, such as keE!ping in mind that all members must be given sufficient time to address this important issue and, considering that thE! House has not been open since last June, other important businE!SS, as well. 11 Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there is other important business but the business that we wanted to discuss at that time was one very important issue, and that was the L323 March 6, 1987 Vol XL French cod war. And on top of l:ha\: hE! had another stipulation: 11 0pen the House but bring the media into thE! House. 11 Now, here is a man, the leader of a particular party in this Province who has aspirations of one day becoming Premier, but Mr. SpeakE!r, I am sure mE!mbE!rS of this han.

House, and members opposite, know deep down in their hearts that the present Leader of the Opposition will never, never become leader of a government in this Province of ours. That is a fact, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one of the reasons why that leader Will not become Premier is ·as Barbara Yaffe has reported in The Sunday Express. And, Mr. Speaker, it is interE!Sting to note that about a month before this came out in The Sunday Express the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Barry, was quoted as saying that the governme~nt members were raping the Opposition, government rnemb0~rs were taking members away from them.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to believe what the Leader of the Opposition is saying becauSE! this paper says there are l:wo rne!lnbers opposite who have confided in Barbara Yaffe that they are not pleased with the leadership of their party. Now, Mr. Speaker, maybe there is one other member recognizing that he may nol: be plE!aSE!d with his leader. Mr. Speaker, there are only two have confided in the reportE!r, but how many others over there are very unhappy with their leader? I understand further, Mr.

Sp1;)aker, that after the by-elE!Ction in December the caucus meeting was not called by the leader, thE! caucus meeting was demanded by a No. 6 R323

member of the Opposition after the devastating blow suffered by the Liberals . Subsequently, Mr. Speaker, one caucus member said that at the December lOth. meeting 1 Members of the caucus took him by the scruff of the neck and gave him a good shake, and I think it was necessary. 1 Just imagtne, Mr. SpE!aker! Talk about a caucus getting upset with their leader! fhe caucus member WE!n ·t on further to say. 11 We told him, 1 Look. man, you really have to do something about your image 1 • Everywhere WE! go people are saying. 1 You have a leadership problem. 111 Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is enough to say about the leader at the present time. Mr. Speaker. I like to rt:.~mernbr::1r that just a few YE!ars ago there was an individual, a leader of an Opposition party, a most statesmanlike person, a famous politician, and if that man had been leader of that particular party when this letter was sent on February 13, I am sure that hon. gentlemen would recognize that the people of the Province should come beforE! any political party.

This is one thing that the Leader of the Opposition and his members are forgetting, that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador are much more important than any political party. I am referring, Mr. Speaker. to a gentleman who is no longer with us. I think it is only right, Mr. Speaker, at this time that the House should recognize the contributton that the late Don Jamieson has made to this House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hE!ar! MR. WARREN: Mr. Jamie son was a friend of mine. L324 March 6 • 1 9 8 7 Vol XL and a very inspirational leader to anybody who worked wjth hirn. I am sure, Mr.

Speaker, if he was in thE! position of the Leader of thE! Opposition, when he had the opportunity to come out and support all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. he would not have done what that hon. gent:le111an opposite has obviously done . Mr. Speaker, there is one other thing I have to tell hon. members. A few days ago, the hon. the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) asked the Premier a question on local preference. fhe Premier explained that there are one hundred and ninety·-odd people working at the Come By Chance refinery and only 5 out of 195 were from outside the Province. Now, let me say just one thtng.

In the two by-elections in December, where did the Liberal Party go for a campaign manager? Have a guess at where they went. MR. BAIRD : Where? WhE!re? MR. WARREN: It was not outside t:he Overpass, it was not on the WE!St Coast of the Province. it t.uas not in Labrador. it was down to thE! United States of America. They went to the United States of America for a campaign manager. SOME HON. MEMBERS: What? What? MR. WARREN: Yes. that. is right. That is right. A fellow by the name of Mr. Goff. or Mr. Coff. something like that.

But that is who thE!Y brought in, presumably a uery powerful campaign manager, for the two by-elections. God help the Liberal Party! When you can corne third in two by-elections. i.l: is No. 6 R324

not too bad of the campaign manager. So, Mr. Speaker, I thought I should let the people in the House know that the Liberal Party does believe in local preference. MR. DINN: The only job they created was a twenty-one day one. MR. WARREN: Yes, a twenty-om~ day one and we do not know how much tt costs the Liberal Party to get this tnfluenttal individual from down in Massachusetts. But I have a feeling, and I have to say this, fellows, that this is why they took their leader by the scruff of the neck, the rest of the caucus did not know this individual was go·ing to come in.

This is on~::~ of the reasons they were so upset with their leader. Their leader said he was willing to take anybody in who can help him, so this, maybE!, ts one of the reasons why they took their leader by the scruff of the neck. Mr. Speaker, I think I have another fifteen or twenty minutes, and I think it is high time for us to talk about thE! positive points that have been brought forward in the Throne Speech. I must say that the han. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) was very complimentary on some of those initiatives. For a number of years, Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development has bE!en initiating programmE!S in this Province, and I am sure the minister can tell me the number of people who have gone to work, the number of jobs that have been created in this Province. But we still have a high unE!mployemnt rate, so we camE! L3 25 March 6, 1987 Vol XL in with an extra initiative to include thE! servicE! SE!Ctor. Mr. Speaker, I am quite pleased to be associated with the Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern DE!VelopmE!nt (Mr. R.

Aylward), a minister who knows rural Newfoundland, a minister who knows Labrador, a minister who will get down in the di tchE!S any timE! and meet with the ordinary man and woman in thE! street, anywhe!rE! at all. He will go out and talk tJ..Iith them. ThE! han. Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development is one of the bE!ttE!r ministers who has supportE!d urban and rural Newfoundland that Newfoundland has ever known. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I think members opposite - MR. TULK: He is bucking for a raise. MR. FUREY: You will get your raise tomorrow. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speake!r, I think we should recognize that this governrn1:! n t. is commi ttE!d to rural NE!Wfoundland and Labrador. Very shortly we will be instituting prog~ammes for the community colleges throughout the Province, another initiatiVE! of this government. If you look across the House you will see only five members over there, and I can t:E!ll you, han. friends, that two of the five are very unhappy. Yes, there are two very unhappy ones over there, Mr. Speaker, but I am not going to say who they are. In fact, a couple of l:hem left when I started speaking No. 6 R325

because they knew I was going to refer directly to them. MR. TOBIN: Give it to 1 Chris 1 • 1 Chris 1 • MR . WARREN : Give it. to I was doing okay before my han. colleague came in, and now he is trying to force my hand. I know who the two individuals are, but I cannot tE!ll you. Now, there is also one other person who is conspicuous by his absence in t:he House, who is very unhappy over there also. So I will leave it to t:he imagination of han. ITlE:'mbers. The hon. the member For Bonavista North (Mr. Lush), the han. the member for Twillingate (Mr . W. Carter), the han. the mE!mber for thE!

Strait of Be 11 e Is 1 e ( M r . Dec k e r) - now, M r . SpeakE!r, the hon. the mE!mber for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland), there is a horse of a different colour. Mr. Speaker, I would venture to say that alJ. han. gentleman, thoSE! four in particular, are concerned about their districts. They are concernt?.d about what is going t:o happen in Newfoundland and Labrador in the next ten or twenty or thirty years. I would suggest to the four han. gentlemen, do not follow a leader who is going t.o lead you nowhere. Do not follow a leader who will lead you down the garden path.

You four gentlemen are too bright, are too intelligent, you have too much to offer to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to follow a leader who only has one thing in mind and that is to be able to sit in that chair there , which hE! wi 11 n E! v e r do. Mr. Speaker, I noticed in The Evening Telegram yesterday evening an editorial, and in L326 March 6, 1987 Vol XL response to a question from the member for St. John 1 s East yesterday, and a question from the member for Nas kaupi today, I would like to table this E!ditoriaJ. just. in case hon. members did not n::>ad it. Mr.

Speaker, it shows that the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth has taken the most responsible position that a politician in this Province can take. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: This concerns thE! illE!gal hunting of caribou in the Mealy Mountains. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not condone or support illegal hunting in this Province. Mr. Speaker, does the member For Naskaupi support the stand that the minister has taken on the ilJ.egal hunting of caribou in thE! Mealy Mountains? I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, has the member for Naskaupi - I understand he has been in his district for the last three days - met with l:he Indian groups ? Has hE! t a 1 ked with them and asked them not to go in there because they are doing something illegal? They are his constituents, not mine, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to suggest to the member for Naskaupi that he take heed of this, that regardless of whether they are his constituents or not, they should not be allowed to break the law. MR. SIMMS: If you would give leave to the hon. member, he could answer the question . MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I will give the han. member leave if he can tE !ll me he No. 6 1n26

has met with the Indian leaders dotJJn there concerning l:he illegal hunting of caribou? I will give leave if the han . member wants to answer. MR. KELLAND : I would not (Inaudible) . MR. WARREN: Well, the answer speaks for itself. Mr. Speaker, I that subject. played my cards. MR. KELLAND : want t.o I have get off already A point of order, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Naskaupi . MR. KELLAND : I had some difficulty in understanding what the hon. member said. I gathered h1:! was talking l:o me, but I had some difficulty in understanding exactly what he was saying.

Perhaps he would repeat it. I am not sure what the hon. member said there. He as ked some sort of question of me, but I am not sure what it was. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. SpeakE!r, I thank the han. gentleman for as king me to repeat it . I wo u 1 d 1 i k e to a s k t h e h on . gentleman a straightforward question. I wiJ.l do it word for word for the hon gentleman. I understand he is hard of hearing, and that is understandable.

Would the hon. gentleman te!ll the House if, within the past two or three days, he! has mE!t tAJith with leaders of the Indian group in Sheshatshit concerning thE! iJ.legal hunting of L327 March 6, 1987 Vol XL caribou they are engaged in the Mealy Mountains? MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the me!rnber for Naskaupi, tJJith leave . MR. KELLAND: I do not intE!nd, of course, to do my share of the Address in l~t?.p1y at this point in time, but just briefly I can te1l the member from Torngat Mountains that whilE! I was horne on a personal matter I did have the opportunity to talk to some hunters in l:he Naskaupi district.

I will not be more specific than that. at this time. Some Labrador hunters did mentioned some of their concerns to mE!. Somewhat J.:irrdted time did not allow me to speak to every single hunter in the district, but that shou1d suffice at this point in time. Action is being taken by me, of course, as is normal and is usual in my