VOL. J PRELIHINARY 1.JNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, JW~E 6, 1978 NO.SO

Jane 6, 1978 !at:e Uo. 3992. !he House ;::.et at :1 i 00 P .!1. !-.:r. Speaker in ::he Chair. Order t p..:.ea.se! Al-iSW O:RS TO QUEST!ONS W'RICH NOTICE H.!WE B£EN GIVEN: The han. Hinister of health. >C{. H. COLLINS: ;It'. S-peaker, : have so::.e ~ore ans;,;ers here in response to questions by the hon. member ior LaPoile.

The answer to Qu.ast:ion !lo. 67, Question No, 11 and the answer to Questior, !lo. 46, Question :'iO, 12, QuestiOn !to. 21, QuestiOn :io. 58 and Question ~0, 2, all in the nace of t~ s~e hon. gentlemant all in the name of ~he hon. m~ber for LaPoile vho has the energy - the oU.:y me:nber :::Yer ::here. ~ir. Speaker, ~lli~ S?E.UU:R: The ho:J. Leader of the Opposition .. MR. lot ~~1. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, about a vec:j(_ ago I asked the hon. ~l1nister of Justice, to \o'hom r am. about to direc.t a question nov~ JM- 1 asked him whether any reports had been received concerning the poSBibility of arson being involved !n any oi u nuaber o£ fires ~hic.h took place ~thin a period of~ ;,;eek or so in St. John's and the first one vas one ~hich was at the Elizabeth !oYers apnrt~ent build!ng.

S~ starting wich thac I ~uld ask the hon. ~nister is there ~,y report back from the police labs or any other place ~hich have been received by the Miniscer of Justice or the Department of Justice concerning that fire? !{R~ SPE.l!J\.ER: The hon. Hinister of Justice. XR. HICIOWf: Mr. Speak~r, t can answer it in this sense that there are no reports back from the lAborities in Snc.kville received by tne or the prosec.utorial division cf my department.

I repeac~if the hon. gentleman vill recall tr£t these repo~ts do ~~t come to my deparement they go tc the investigatiu~ police fo~ce and c~e to the deparcoenc ~s one of the exhib1t8 in che report chat is sen~ in. As of yesterday afteruoon no repo~ts had been received on any of these fires by my aepar~ent. ! went to check again vh~ I ~s ccoin~ u~ here now and the genc~eman I had to as~ is not back. from lunch. So

June 5, 1.978 Tape :1o. 3992 with t:.l::a.t rider and nebulous qualification ::he ans;.;er is none have been receivea. :ct.U.;i. ROW"'E: :,r.R. S?E.Ah.EA: :-m.. y.; ~N ~ ROI·lE: _ A supple~er.cary, Sir. A suppleQentary. The :.J.nis ter is chasing hi.s words very care.fully t notice~ Mr.

Spear~r, exceedin617 car~!ully. !s the minister 4Ware either as a trlnister or person:1lly cf any r-eports. \:hich :right J.ave been received by any officials outside his ciepart=:~.entt the police force or the fire coo.tJissioner, the ClDt any report.s ;.rhit.h ::~.ight have been received from the lab concerning well,to start ~ith the first fire, the fire in Elizabeth To~ers? !-i:R. SPEAKER: ;m.. HIOlW-1: !he han. ~nister, ar. Speaker, again that: question earl!:; up last ':Jtaek and the hen~ Leader of the Opposition - Mii.. NEARY : .;-Ut. HIClat.;.;I: Yes or noi that is all. - thg han.

Leader of the Opposition is quite correct ;.:hen he says that I have to choose ~y Yards exceedingly carefully and I ~usc. I have an obligation as At~orne} ~eneral to ensure the confiden~iality of any inves~igacion that is going an ecnnecting any ?Ossible criae in this Province and t:here is no in betYeen ~ith respect to that kinU of restriction that is placed upon me.

But t will repeat ~at I said last veek ~hen the question vas asked that it ~as indicated to Qe Vben 1 had inquired ~ithin the depar~ent as to whether anyone had any idea as to the progress that was Ceing oade that somet the extent of which I de not knov, sOQe qf the reports froo the laboratories ~ere cooing back to the police, n1e content~ of these reports, the investigetiqns to which they relate I do not know directly or indirec~ly, .NR. W.ri .. ROW'E: Ur~ Speaker, a suppleCJentary• Sir, if I msy. :ra. SPEAKER: A SU?ple.nu;ntary, the original questioner. Hit4W.N. ROWE: That is me. H~.

NEARY: 'iou are the only one who asks for suppler:umcad.e.s. MR. W.!i4 ROWE; Hr. Speaker, while on tb.is general topic, one que.sticn before 1 get of! this specific to?ic., Sir. a number o.f

June 6. E'7!! T:::pe ~:c. 3~9J C>T-1 rJn into so:::e diffi.r:u.::.ty tdth regard to insurance and so en !'liH'ticubr inCividual ! ;; no e. TJtova:::le artd therefo-re :-.o charc.os are ltdd. do t~e rt:!pcrt.s ;:;:a !.nto the han:is of t!-,e :Ln~U't.'C!'5 of :1r.y ~~trple c:li1b:!.n;; uncle!:' :.nsur:tnce policies~ for cxn:::.ple, de :::!:;c insut:ftncc ccmp.:tn!es ;et: nr'!

O?pcrtuni'.::y to lonk :1t any file,, ?Cli:::e files, or C!V files. or Fire: Departr..er:t files relating to the pcssiblc "·:Js r:ct :t::tccrtained~ tc ensure that (?_<Jer;: co::~ce.ivnl::le: iuV<H!tiz:ntivc avenue '.:oC i·ciCI: fcllcn:_C the :':ircctor af Public Prcsec.1H.i.1Jns zt :::.';' ::: 1 c:J.n r,o :;ad~ tc t!.me i'lftcr t.l;:e, J.l" (5alicitar fa~ an insur<!nc~ ccmrpn:ny, nc:cess to

!a;-c ::c. 35"?3 result :'Jf ;1n :r:.ve:s:;i_~aticn into 2. fire. So for :hilt !'"eascn. not !->avit::r: asl:o::.1 s~ecifically, I fee! quite certa.i:t tt':n:: tf:e c.onf!C.t;n:i.:tlit:: '::'Culd !::;we to Je - t.hc confid,-;nt:iality of 1.n investi;;Jtion in t;;,e evnr.t or bet' irwes ti;;::tt !on. "\ furt!:cr :>upplc.:::entar; • Sir. Criginal questtoner. ~uppler.enta~y.

S!.-r, irt ::hi.n sener:Jl ar!?'.1 cf ::he :;.Cr:ini.stration cf lustice ;u:d cr!r:e and so ::tn in t!-,e ?ro•rince, the Ci::icf of ?olice anC t'ti:er fli:!t:"plc '" •• we noticed .l!'.d am:cunced puhlic.ly that t!-.e-r~ is a rise ;-:0':; t:h.'lc ! ·-·ould lib.: to ask t:hc ~'inistcr or Justice - I 1-elieve t!1e Chi!!f of ?olic.e :t'Bnticned that a 1<c.cl~ nr so :ttzo, d:iC =:e n:~t - - ten clays aso, or so. ~het ~~ere is a :ising rate of varu1.alism b the City - v:hat I 1--;ould l:'J:e tc ask the Yir.ister d Jtlst:ice :!s, uhen 1.·as t!-.e last time t~erot 1.135 n 5Ubst.antial increase in thf!: 'i300Qt,•er ct the t,'e':Jfcundlam!

Constabulary and does he think that t:!:e exjsting strength of che !'olice ;:'orce :in this C!.ty is ::uf~icie:J.t tc cor::hnt the r:!.:;ing cri:-.e rnc:e in St . .,!ctnts? !ion. "inister of Justice.

There has not - to ny knouleCge t!;ere has not been ,?,n i'1.creiJ.-se in th€ -r:anpovcr of the t,:e-:..·foondl:m.C Ccnst.'!bulnry in the last ten Yi.1ars. !t !':a~· even ?e t:',;elvc years .. ~.s of ::oCay I have never !'f!Ceived r.t!vic.e ::~r a ret:;uest !ron <;he Chief o[ Police, successive <"'hiafs of !'olic.e that thare should be nn increase, need i:!:l Ce an i:1creasc i:'l the r.lanpc-.:ar, There is certain reorganization r,oing on \.t1 thin che Fcrce that so :ar has ?rover. very effective in combatting t:he crir:c tate

June 6, lT7S iF 1nc.::-easin.g 11nd it. ::t.s d.ist:ur~bt. it ts fortunately s:::.Ul st.a;-'ing t:elct." ::.he Cw.r'<;;t:.:::!.an i:!V~Zrace or -:::-.ac of co::parablc :::.it:ic:s :u:d to;.-ns t'hrougl,out <:anadn, If it :i.s indic::1teC t!-\at: tha::e is a r:ecd fer an increase !:t IT:qnpCi-lC.t" 1 €eel ::uit:O C!;rtain tho:: SUC:f; il :requeSt: from tht! C:hie:f af !'clic::: "-·auld '::c readily ~ccorr::nodated.

There are .c;orc other ad1uscrrents g::l1.:~~; en ri~~c new "hich tuve ;",Ot: bee~ c:Y.:lplatc.d :~.s yet: ;:md uten t:f.ey arc cor::plet:ed they t."ill !:1-eccr.:e: pu!:>lic i.no::le:Cge ~thic:h n.gai,n, T think. · . ..rill ir..d:icate anC provide ;a ccntinuation o( effective policing in t:;..£! ;;ity of St::. Joh:1'.;;. I can go ~aek nnd say te.n ::enrs .'1@:0

June S, 1978 7apa .:rc. 3394 the ratio of polic~en~you V~ow,per CApita :tn St. Jch.:t 1 s va:; considerably hig!uu than that o£ c::t~::?ara:,le cities such as 3alifax* !iow- since then t suspect that as ve have ~aintatned the s!ntus ::;uo and done some adjustir.g that that ratio~obviously" has changed so~evhat.

But whilst there bus been nn increase in certain arnas of ~ri~inal activi~y within the c!ty linits. vanda!!srn fer one, I think we can cake a great deal of sa~isfnc~ion from the fact t::1at as a :-esulc: ,:,f the special squads chat the Chief of Police implecented, designed to respond 3nd rolice areas vhere there has been a noted increase in criminal activity, have been most successful and in these areas of the city the ~raphs are going down. This is a very satisfactory thing indeed. Opposition. mt. W. ROV."E: A fin.nl su~~.!a:ne!'l.ta't"Y, Sir. A final supplenentary. the hon.

Leader of the That ansuer sounded :easonablel Sit, but to ne it is absolutely incredible. !he minister is telling us ttat in a c!.ty whi::t-. cust ~a>re practically doubled in size in r::he last do:een years, vith all the other add!.tives to t!:.e increase in the crime rate, television and urhani%ation generally and so on and so forth, and with the rate of increase in crine noted by senior law enf:1rcement officers, that· ~here is no nead nO"<~ to inct."ease the ?Ol!.c.e. force~ after this t':.J~:ve: 7e.:.r period? 1 Cid not say that, ':>it-!11 the ~inist:cr says he C.id Mt o.:1.y :hat, Sir, it: cer~d:tly sounded u:~e it to 1:€!.

HR. 'N. ROt."E: A :en or t.t.telve year period since - and no requests from the Chief of Police~ :;: mean does the t~inister's officials or anyone else in ~~e department have any ideas on it1 Can the :ninis~ar indicate whether he h.U:.sclf thinks or believes there should be an increase in the police force in order tc combat the incrgase in the rate of cri~e in :he city of St, Johr.'~i And also, Sir -well :et him ans~er that 5irsr::, Sir. and t~en

June 6, !.978 :9 .. ':ti, ROHE: ~·~. SPEAF..ER; )!'R. HIC.:~!A.N: I ':lava cne Ei:1al sup:pler::e:ttar;•. !he hon~ ~nis:e~ of Justice. ~r. Speaker, as of today, June whatever it is. 5th., l97e 1 there has not been a need for an increase in the ~anpower in the ~ewfoundland Constabular;. Bu~ ! Craw to tha attenti~n of hon. gentle~e~ that during that period t" ... "'' or three things have happened, one is there h..:ls not been a dou!:iling of population. The real po?ulation g:ro~th in St.

John's, the rapid one did not occur during t~e last ten yea:rs,. it ~as the fifteen years inunediatel; -preceding t!--.:lt • .~\nd the growth tO'!ay has be~n the nomal tncrea.se in popul~-tion that you will find in any city o£ the 3!~e of St. John's. Secondln t~ere has been some fairly major changes in poli~ing eoph3sis ~d policing patterns in the city dur!n:; the last ten year period.

Ten years ago t~e Newfoundland Constabulary • ui th the. sa:ne Zl5 Zien, had a fairly substantial number assigned to highway patrols, 1:hic:h teak: thc:m a>J far as Thitbourne. !'hat was discontinued and these men ~e.re all b't'oug:u: ba::i~ in - !-!R~ CALU..'l: ~ffi.. HICKX.<\1:t: ! ar, glad it: t.:as, And the han. gentle~an frccr Bellevue (~'t'. Callan) says he is glad it was. These men uu~e brought back into t:he city and gi<:.rer. policing responsibilities with-in the city. There has also been a lot of adjust~ent as to the wor~ :hat is being carried out by shif~s.

The police are not doing as much prosecuting in the ecurts as they used to. They are not doing :he kind af records and clerical work that police officers used t:o do dovn in the ~agistrata's Gourt. All of these !ree up nore and ~ore men to do :'H't'ictly polici_ng dut:ies. !1R. NEARY: 'Parking. Parking. 'ffi. HICKMAN": Sane people~ at least: one editorial suggests ~hat they should be raken off part~ng meters. They should.

June 6, ::...978 Tape ~io • .3994 ~~-1 - 3 I got a summons today for an expired par'c:ing ~ter. nine mont~s cld. :recom::umd.ations,! ::~ight say 1 of :::he police officer. :1'? .. NE .. AP,Y ~ ;.m. RICk~!AN; :Une ;;'IOnths. t~ng enough te have a baby. r:~e problem has ~ever been ~ich the ?Olice offic:e'l:'S !landi:'l.g out pa-rki:1g cick.er.:s. HR. NEARY: ! 1o not even know uhere ! •..ras nine monl:~;.s ago. The ?roblen has been what ::ollovs o.fter a.nd >;e have overcome :hat to a gr.aat extent dudng t~e past: yenr. One final, Sir 1 leading from t~at answer, then I vill resuce my seat. 2!R. SPE..!..:-:ER ~ ~R.

W. ROW'E: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Can the minister indicate to us the average a:~~ount: of ~vartL~e that each ~em,er of the Newfoundland Constabulary will have say in the run of a yeaT1 ~~ iffi.I\F'.Y: }ffi. 'W. ROWE: .uso prison ,,..nrders.

And t~e prison '.larders t~s ~,:ell, lle :'l:i(""ht not have this exact info~ation at his di9posal, Sir, ~ut if he could find nut from his oH!..cials and let me }:..'tau to::orrov, uhat is che average a=~unt of overt:ime ~hich a ~ember cf the poli=e force vould have in the run of a year or had,say,last yenr, the f!nanciol year ending ~areh 3lsc., !tot laSt year, the year before beelluse of the strike at the ~-1acedord. !-tit • W • ROllE : Oh 1 that i3 right.

June 6, 1976 Tape 3995 IS-1 MR. W. ROWE: Maybe he can give us an average over the 1ast trto or three years and what is anticipated this year by way of overtime. MR. NOLAN: Unlimited aver~ime in Canada, unlimited. MR. W. ROWE: HR. HIC1C1AN; MR. SPEAKER: !s that right? l,ir ~ Speaker .. The han~ Minister of Justice. ~>\ft. 1iCKt-1AN: Wait now let me answer :he question. I have to take notice of this.

Obviously, I cannot give ~he House the amount of overt~me that the police during the past two or three years have had, the mer.'lbers of the Newfoundland Constabulary. 1 would suggest that when I get it you will see a difference in the type of activity. I suspect that the CID wou1d necessarily have mare overtime than someone on traffic patroL The other appendix to that question which either came from the hon. Leader of the Opposition or his colleague frc~ Conception Bay South {Mr. Nolan). his trusty colleague from Conception Say South, is whether or not there is unlimited overtiMe at Per Majesty 1 S penitentiary.

I will check that out too but I will be very surprised if that is correct. MR. SPEAKER: I would new like to welcome to the House of Assembly on behaif of hon. members thirty-six Grade y_ and V1 students fror:1 St. ?eter 1 S E1ementary School in Upper !sland Ccve acccmpanied by one of their teachers _"l:r. William Greeley. in welcoming these students. SOME HON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear! I know han. members join me MR.

SPEAKER: I recognize the ~on. member for Ee11evue. realize there are han. gent1emen who wish to add supplew~ntaries but I have to bear in mind that t:h;C~re: 1.10ulu appear ::o me to ~e a au::lber of ~ton. members who wish to ask questions on ather subiects and '~,f'i han~ mer~ber is not prec1uded,of course,from coming back :o his subject when he is recogni-zed. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hr. Speaker~ in the absence of the Premier perhaps the Minister of Justice could answer the question

June 6, 1978 Tape 3995 18-2 MR. CALLAN: or perhaps the minister of T and C. What I am trying to find out is ¥hflt: the status of-negotiations oerhaos •t~ould be a good word- what is the status of negotiations with anybody and especially with the first Arabian corporation in connection with any efforts in trying to reactivate and reopen the Come By Chance Oi1 ~efinery? I~R- SPEAKE~: The han. Minister of Transportation and CoMmunications. MR. DOODY: The situation, Sir~ is much as 1 described it to the House a week or so ago on my return from the discussions in the J.K.

At that time the first mortgage holders, the K1ienwort~8enson Group together with the Export Credit Guarantee,a department of the British Department of Finance and the receivers Peat.~arwick to1d J~ that they had been talking to the First l\rabian Corporation and they had received some suggestions from them.

They felt that they had insufficient infonration to entertain the suggestions as a specific or reasonable proposal, that they were going back to the First ~rabian Corporation asking for more details, detail on their backaroundt detail on their marketing, on their manageMent expertise and whether or not they had a reliable supply of crude, on 'lfhat they based the assumption that they could ouerate the refinery as a reasonable, viable and profitable operation.

They were, in fact, setting forth a whole number of questions and a whole number of orders of detai1 which they asked the tirst Arabian or were to ask the First Arabian to respond to. r would suspect that they have given this list of questions to the First Arabian Corporation by this time. To the best of my knowledge there has be€n no response. '..le have not heard from therr. ! undertook at that time to keep the House informed as I will and indeed this is, I i~agine, a series of ouestions aimed i~ that direction.

But to date there has bee~ no further advance to my knowledge with First Arabian over and above the descriotion I gave of the discussions we had in London a 1-1eek or two ago. M'<. CALL~N: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: ,A supp1enentary.

Juoe 6, !978 Tape 3995 !9-3 ~~. CALLAN: ~r~ Speaker? perhaps the minister can te11 us tJhether or not the First Arabian Corporation have come up with any guarantees from reputab1e financial peop1e to the effect that they are or wi11 be in a position to reactivate and rehabi1itate?I suppose, the defective oarts of the refinery and to get it back on the whee1s. Have they supplied that information to date? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister, !VR. ODDDY: ~h·.

Speaker, up to the time of our discussion~and I described the situation at that time here in the House,one of the prime areas of concern and interest by the receiver on behalf of the fi~st mortgage owner was~ in fact, the very question which the han. mer.1ber raises~ is Ffrst Arabian capable of financing the operation? Oo they have the necessary resources behind them? Do they have the working capital to operate the refinery?

Oo they have the financial capability of rehabf1itating the refinery and bringing it up to the standard necessary to operate it as the original designers intended it to Je and :he sophisticated state which it never did reach? These questions had not been answered satisfactorily up to the time of our discussion but they were among the most important of the

June 5. 1978 Tape J995 EC - l XR, DOODY; questions which were being put tc First Arabian, and ~y understanding is ~hat the First Arabian had undertaken to provide that infor~ation through ~he British. When that is done the British have undertaken to acquaint ~s of the 9ituation, but to date there have been no specific guarantees given that these capabilities are with the First Arabian and to that extent one has to say that the proposal is no further - or at least the discussions or negotiations are no further ahead than they were prior to our a~tiving ln the U~K. fQr our briefing a week or tva agQ, :-!R.

CALLAN; MR. SP:SAKER: ~R. CALLAN ' Mt. Speaker, a final supplementary. A final supple~enta~y. Mr. Speaker, I •Jane to ask the uini~ter then - it bas been over tvo years nov since the refinery closed. !t h~~ eost the British $5 million to keep that refinery io mothballs for tvo years.

You kno~, assuwing chat it is anothe4 cvo years that is $10 million just to keep a place in mothballs. ~he question is~ How much longer are the receivers prepared to carry on in the receivership of :he refinery, number one? -and could the minister indicate vhen he expects that another set of ~ee~ings si~ilar to the ~eetings held vith che Sritis~ a veek or ~ore ago MR. DOODY' of your question7 !!R.

CALLAN' Rave you finished the last part Yes~ ~hen does the minister expect that anocher set of meetings with the n~itiah vill be £arthcomi~g and doea the minister think that the receivers might get - you knov, sick and tired of holdi~g on to this? It has been over two years no~. How :::tuch longe~ will they hang on to it?

June 6, 1978 Tape 3996 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Transportation and COmmunications. MR. DOODY: I think it might be fair to say that the British are pretty sick and pretty tired right now, Your Honour, of putting money into the ~othballing and maintenance of the operation, The figure that was quoted at the last meeting was not $5 million - I think it Yas closer to $12 ~illion that they have invested to date in mothballing and maintenance to keep the facility up to a standard which would be acceptable to a potential buyer.

The indication that we received at that time Yaa that they Yould continue this sort of support as long as there appeared to be a rea! customer in the wings who Yould be interested in taking over the refinery and operating it, and as long as they feel reasonably satisfied that First Arabian are a real potential customer and are negotiating in good faith, then I get the impression that the support that I mentioned will be forthcoming and continuing. HoY long that will continue, of course, is obviously in the hands of the British Treasury, It is their decision how much money they will continue to commit.

We have an undertaking from the Government of the United Kingdom through ECGD that they Yill inform us well in advance of any decision to discontinue that sort of support, but as of this moment, I can say that the support of maintaining the facility is ongoing and we have no indication as to a cut-of£ date, although quite obviously there is a limit to the amount of money that any government or any organixation or any company can continue to pour into something. And I hope that it is not something that is going to happen very quickly, but we have been told

June 6, 1978 Tape 3996 EC - J ~1R. DOODY: that we ~ill be infor~ed ~ell in advance if such a decision is taken. MR. NRARY: NR. SPEAKER: !'IR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker. The hen. the ~ember for LaPoile. Hr. Speaker, c.y question is for the Minister of Transportation and Cocmunications, Sir. Would the minister tell the House if there is any foundation to the reports that the Director of Air Services has resigned or has put in his resignation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. :he Minister of Transportation and Coc.munications. HR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, ! received a letter from the Director of Air Services along these lines a few days ago, I nave not had an opportunity to discuss the contents of the letter ~ith the Director of Air Services or indeed officially with my colleagues, and I would refrain from ansvering that que~tinn in detail at this point. I ~auld much prefer to have the opportunity of discussing it ~itb the people involved directly and report to the Bouse perhaps in a day or two on the contents. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: HR. NEAaY: A ~upplementary, Sir. A supplec.entary, Hr.

Speaker, I r,.;ould assume from the minister's answer then that he has received a letter of resignation from the Director of Air Services. For r..,rhat purpose would the meeting be held, to ask hi::t to reconsider or is the minister going to accept the resignation? - you knov, just what is the status nov of the position? XR, SPEAKER: The han. the Hinis ter of Transportation and Cocmunications. XR. DOODY: I know this may seem alien and

June 6, l97a !ape .3996 EC - 4 !"iR. DOODY: strange to che hon. the ~ecber for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), but there are some

June 6, 1978 ""ape J?t'7 '3 I'JOOJY: co~on courtesies uhic~ are. observed ia L"ost civilized socit!ties,Jne of then is to t:reat >:he nan ·.,.ho l1as snrvecl this !lrovince well an~ :ait:lfull'r for t!"le [FlSt ten or twelve YQilrs with the respect,! th:!.nk.,chat sue~ an e:::rloyee de!:lerves .• one of then won1:1 '::>e a. co:wersntio:'l. ·~·it~ the nin!scer involved ::a zo into :-ictail of t~e letter thnc t;as history of it is.

I t!link tl;at t:l,~ ;;er-':,f'!"la.n da;s~rvetl ::\z.~ ':i~d of courtesy J.ml T hnv::! ev<::r:· inr.encion of affording him that courtesY. n'.:!ar, hear~ y·o S. 'lL\RY: A supplemZ"O.tar;, "r. Spea1:er. A supplecent:<>.ry. The bon. gentler::an, 5'ir, ·-7ho believes in cocrtr!SY perhaps the hen, gentle:-.an could n:so inforr-: - lacking in the Opposition. the !'ir:~c::or of :.ir Ssrr::.ccs port.::r.tion t:1ut he tl.::r.S nlrea,1v looking :or a joh on '.:~!'! n:.o.it'.;_;;.nd jefore ::tis controversy arose. ; ':" SPEA!:I:'1.: 1:!-J.e hen. 'liniste.r of !ransportation and ea~n~~ications. ~m..

T)QOflY: ':'he han. r:1cr.ber is a:;k:.!.n2 :::1e a question chat is beyond m;.• capacity at ::::1e present cir;e to answer. 1 can assure tbe han. ;;entleman that. t..~e Dit"ector of Air Services h~d :1ever inforr.cd ;';le of any ?l:!n;:; t!-lat he r_ig:,t have to seek employr::ent else':/here or co o.C·;ance his career in anot:l.er area, :!e ma·: ver-; well have :!iscussed it. wit~ t;-,e deputy or t~e assista:1:: deputy or t::1e Jirector of 7ransportac!on, it h.e :1a:!,they t1ad not discussed it ,,..it:\ rr:e or brought it to rry attention, so , therefareJ any t~iscussian or any ~-:no<rledge of i=Jlans or arr:=:itions or desires of the Pirect.or nf .·\ir Ser.ricc;;; to c':lan;e his nrea of eiT:TJlo;ment

>in31 su?~ler.enta~:. :·; :>uPp1c:ranca:rv. S~= ~" ~-:oul:i ~J~ ;;'or c::e !-finistcr of Fo-:-estr;> a7!.d .\.'tricu:cure .. :;o ~oubt: c:..i.e Jirc:.ct:o:r of Air Se.-t"'Ji::es ·:ill ~~ave. no proble1":1 sott:in?: <:~. jab flying he!.lc:opters ;n:~u:u!. :he •·:_:.ister of ~ore:st'l..":: and .\rricult::•..:ru ::tat!.a a st.:.ten:enc, Sir, in this House. on ':ny 24, 1977 that ::he ::;ov.arnment ·lad !ocate:! r.to Canso aircraft, and ~:,e minister t·as doin(j his !:s:::ir-.a.tes: at. the tirte if I t'!a;t refre~!. the ninisr:.er's ;:~emory.

A::t:u!.llly. r.e cold me tWice 9hen he HaS doing h:.s F:s'tic.ates ::h,1t the gavet"!lr::e.nit had l<Jcntecl co:.;o r:';:u-,so aircraft: 11.nd ~::e; were gci\",g to >.,u;r t:hese t;'Jo aircraft and hav~ the::J refurbished and :umed into water bo'C'.be:rs. Couli! the clnisr:er te11. t~e Fouse vhere th.ese t~>i'o aircraft: 'l!ere located ~hat: ::he minL:ttet' talC us at: t;he '.;;:ixe the governt:'cnt had tounrl? ;·Qere ••ere they? .l.nd C.iC the: government in a.::tual fact purchase these c·.;c aircraft? The hen. :tinisce-:< of rores::ry OH'lC Asricul ture.

I do not !mot<,· :::::e exac~ location that: the aircrnft ''\/ere purchased and t~ey "H!re refurbished by - one of r:.hen is still being completed ";;y r:"ield Aviation in Calga::y.i·'here t:heJ actually eaC".e frof'!ji untlerst~nct t."lnt .one did cot:e from r::1e California area sometll".ere but che other one 1 do nor. kntrw. >ie purchased tho!!" t~roug"t !'::!::lie ':'r>nders and ·~+.en the ::.cntier;q cane ir. ;.;a c'-u:m proceedtd to ?Ct: <;:hem refurbifl:,ert t~rough Field Aviation in Calgnr;. ~iC c:le !:i.n.al sup-plt:ment::.:tt""f -so r thi:'lk I h:~ve t:O p-ass illonr to a_,_.,athe.r :-.on. :r:acilier.

The hon. :c.ernl:>er fc--: !erra ~~ova. ;J'i; - 2

J::ne 5. !??::! t;uesti.ons for t!le ~tinist~r vf L;:;:.;:;ur and 1'tln'?ower: (''r, ?ntJ!iseau) !';'!s?ect:i.nt; t::.e grim labour s!t:1ati::n in t1Hl Provi~ce but ;:.art:..c:ula:rl:; ! ~tant to a;;;1-: :ao;.:_e ('fl:est!ons n~oct the L'lbour ~ispute i:-t t:he civil service - pu:,lic service. e"irst 7 c::tn c!:l.e ::tinister 'Jery '1_uic~~lv ho:ce.use mS!.ybe they are all C:"!e ;n:oar contracts ma?!?e t!;e.y are not. rren. ninist:er. i k.noti there are 124 contracts.

I do not knov ho~ oany are public service ones but I #~uld think proba:Jly a quar::et' ar half of then unyway, A :su;tp!ement.:u:y 1 :%r. :Sr:eaker. A supplemeneary. 124 total. ~oes the ~inister anticipate •any problcr.:s -.rl.t~ re.spe;:t r:o t"esoi'ving these cencracts i' B-ecause :tc 1ooi.:.s like 1 ;-tart.icul;:n 4 l:; in the ci'lil service to Cate on;r.1ays, 111 t:te :1egO'tiations :-.ave h~en going t~.rough the thir:: !f~rty sea;.%'!, so r am tfli::J:ing !n terms o.f whether there is enough arbitrators :tnt! conciliation <:\er .. Uon. m,i.nister. ::rt.

RCUSSE;;II: The :inister or the cor:ciliaticn officers :.lo not: resolve thl"' co':lt:racts ,:,inuageoent and labour resolve their own contracts. we ;'! :rovicte ~he -:r.et!.iati;jn serJ'iczs ~ Tl:us for, the average. 1oad '~<'Cult! be. four o-r five cases for each conci1.i;;:~tion officer. !hat is not ver:y nany but if it g:!1;t5 to a ?Ob.t • . .:l:'.ere the c.nse load is coo :1eavy I t-mve the. p-ot:er :mde.r the new :.al::our ?.elations ,\;::t tO ~rint; in peo';}le :rom OUtside t.:he zm:;l:,c o.;;:rvi::e. A aucple~en:ar;. 'Final suppler:cnt:at]'.

June 6,' 1978 Would the ~inisce~ indiczte as to hov nany contracts within the d.vil ser..rice c:: the public service ar~ p-resently i:l disuptt:: right nov? ~'::!\. S?EA .. KER; :he han~ '~inis<;;er of l.abou:: and X..1npa'Wet'. I will buve to cnke ~Mt as r.oti::e. X v:ill get the 1,n!:'j~Je:r for the han. ::-~ef:lber on ::onorrcw. ! do not k . .,ou o ffha:J.d. Tt.e ~on. ~amber for St. John's Wes~. ~!r. Spe.aker, r:y :;jUCStion is directed to the :tinistc.r of Hunicipal Affairs and i!ous!.ng. ! unCar!:tnnd, Sir, t~at the accounts of all ~unicipalities in this Province are subject to audit by the Auditor General.

I notice in the Regional Govern..'T.e.nt Bill a depat"t:'..1te £-roc::. this practice in t~a~ it S?ecifies t~ac !t is c~c ~nist~r who shall appoinc the aud!ccr. Perhaps the minister can shed scree li~ht us to the reA3on for this depa:rture from nor;:;<ll practice, Does he lack c.onfidencu in the Auditor Gener.:1l? Joes he fear the Auditor Generill ond the ?ub2i.c ,:\ccounts Co~itr.ee? !Joes he wis!1 t::o be i:t a posi::ion to giv'e tf".e 1::1us!nuss to so7:'.e ?arti:::u!.ar audi-.:ing Hm? Or ~,rill :his innovation be exte~Ced to other nunicipalities? ~n~t are tte reasons?

The hon. ~inister of ~-1unicipl!l Affairs and !lousing. }!r. Speaker, many t!.mes in the run of a yaar 1 AS a ::nacter of Eac': ,r::he "Oi:lister ap?oin.t.s .o.uditors to go !.n -'lnd hos not gotten around to it. his mandnte 1 ! oe''''v<o.is to do it ot least once every tYO yea~s. So his work load is getting to a point na•.J Hhere he cannot handle "'!_l r:he audits of :tunic.i?al!.c.ies a:--.:1 o!tcn ti~es r appui~: auditors co go in tc a town ~r a comouai~J and so on. And ic has be~n go!ng on for, as :he ;;en. r,er:;bc~ said. for a long tir:te now und it vill continue to go on.

June 6, :97S H'R. S?£A.'I{I'!I.: tor til?oUe. Tape !fo. 3'998 ORD!RS OF Ti:IE iJAY: Order 3, debate adjourn~::~ by the hon. c:H;:rt..ber Hr. Sj:enker, i.:: :nay eot::e as a surprise to :he House, Sir, es~ecially to ~e~be~s on ~he ~over~ent ~en~hes :o lea::;"';l that: :: J.t', going to support ::he vote of ncn-confidc:lce that •,:as so ably p't'oposad by my hoc. colleag:.ua, the Luader of t-he Opposition in the House yeste:rdayt Sir. ~ffi. W. ROiit: I am. SUT'prised. ;\nd pet'haps, ~~r.

Speaker, the best way :o j)teface ::::y remarks in support cf the motion of non-confidence tnved by ::he hon. '::le.:::ber for 'l'uillingate (Hr. W. Rot.~e), the Leader of the Opposir:ion, is to state 1 S!.rt t:h.'lt: ::his gc-;erncent has not evea shown a hopeful sign of a dei1thbed repenten::e. for the budget. te.'bbd. b t!lis House of Asser~bly on che 17th. day of ~t.1rch, i=t ;:tl.is yea't' of our Lord, 51~. 1978. There ~ns some hint of belt tightening, Sir~ in the. ~ud.gc.t: Speech and~ austerity for cur tax pnyerst t~.at ecne for the. tolx spende1:s, Xr.

Speake'£. !lot even a hint of an int:e~tion by the ~inister or by the gove~ent, to reduce thP hor:"endous $2.6 billicn public debt .at today 1 s interest: race, \o.'hich means, Sir. a fivefold increase in interest charges alone co be carried on the backs of cur taxpayen as compared with '<!hat tZ.ey sho~ldered six years ago when the present regi~e, Sir, came an the scene ~ this P~ovince. ~!r. Speake;-, the budget contains no real intention of belt ticih::c.ning :,y :he government itself.

If it had any re<:tl concern, Sirt for our Province 1s des?ern~~ financial plight, and for the fut~re economic health of Newfoundland and LahraCor. ic: would n~ve introduced in this session some real ~easurest ~r. Speaker, to restore co~cn sense to the handling ~f public t:'.onies. First:, ~!r. Speaker, in ::~y opinionfla.nd I said this before in this hen~ !~ouse. that ~e could lop $,5 ':'t!llion, Sir • off che annual expense of running :his House by cutting back ~he s~ze of

June '5~ 1978 !'<:!pC No, ::l998 :vr - 3 t:tc House, Si.rt ::o t::hirt:;-:!.vf! ~enber5, :!.ncludingt ~-fr. 5?eake:=, four members for our present:: unde:-Set""<'iced L~braOor region. :rr. SpEl3ker, this is a sugges:icn t!1at hils Cue~ ~ade on 4 nu~ber of oceasi~ns :hat seems La h~ve ~et ~~th <J f.wourable -::esponse by reoplet aspecia1.1y tllZ:p<l;.'O:!'S throughout cur. back tht: si;::e to ::hirty-fi-;:e ;;;embers 1nstear.l of t:be ?resen: f:!.f~y-cne :ne:::.be.rs anci ~hrcug:O eco:r.or:.)' :nes.sures save :he taxpaye.rs S.S nillion. I:.::tt., Hr. Speake:-?

June 6, 1978 Tape 3999 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: YOuld ~ake one member for every 15,000 of populacion and, in my opinion, Sir, chis is sufficient in a ?rovince Yich our tax base. And, of Course, Mr. Speaker, che Cabinec would be reduced accordingly. The Cabinet could be reduced, for inscance, co cwelve or fourceen mecbers for anacher larg~ saving, Mr. Speaker, by incorporacing some depart~ents as divisions of others. Tourism, for inscance, Sir, could easily become a division of Transportation and Com~unications and cut back, Sir, all the current waste on foolish -Mr. Speaker, I am getcing an awful rumble, Sir.

I can hardly hear myself, Either close the door, Sir, or ask che people in the corridors to cool it. 1 am trying co cake a very serious speech, Sir. NR. SPEAKER: The han. cember wishes to be heard withouc incerruption and thac includes nee only members of che House bur people who are also in che precinccs. ~R. NEARY: So, Mr.

Speaker, as I scared, the Deparcmenc of Tourism could easily become a division of Transporcacion and Communicacions and cut back all the currenc wasce on foolish advercising and chings like the Norma and Gladys, considered co be public relations gimmicks, to a simple programme of presenting every tourist arriving at Port aux Basques wich a cheque for $50,00 or ~100.00 to help compensace him and his family for cheir expense of geccing here.

In other words, Sir, whac I ac saying is that if you wipe our che foolish nonsense, wipe cue che Department of Tourism, make ic a branch of the Deparcnent of T~ansporcacion and Cocmunicacions, eliminace all chis foolish PR like che Sarma and Gladvs and che ocher gi~micks chat they have, and the huge amounts of money chat chey are

June 6, 1978 Tape 3999 EC - 2 ~a. NEARY; spendin~ on advertising, the~e vould be countervailing savings so that every every genuine tourist that •ould come into this Province in the new tourist !~terpretive Centre in Port aux 3asques ~ould be presented with a cheque for $50.00 or $10a~OO to help him compensate for his return trip across the Culf.

And that to oe, Sir, is the best advertising that you could get~ The word •ould not be long getting around, Sit. the vord would not be long travelling throughout ~orth A~erica that if you go to ~ewfoundland you ean get a little help in your expenses for going back ~nd forth across the Gulf - $50.00 or $100.00, depending on the savings by making the Department of Tou~iam a bTaneh of che Depar~~ent of Transportation and CoaauQications. J~s~ i~agine, Mr. Speaker. the $avings through such a progranQe.

And iaagine, Sir, che draving card, ~o bring tourists here ~o this Island and even bring back some former native Neufoundlanders who vould like to come to Newfoundland e~cepc for that e~pense of getting a~ross the Gulf. Another saving~ Hr. Spe~ker, if we are talkina about belt tightening, strict budgeting and so forth~ vould be for the governcent to exercise a li~tle strict contTol over ministerial and senior ~f!icia:s' travelling allowances.

No more leaving the Province, Sir, with cinisters giving up their p~ovinc!al re$ponsiJilities at the dTop o£ a hat and any flimsy excuse to get away, especially during the Sprinb and Yi~ter when the ~eather is bad in this Province and the ministers wane to ge: away and ~ill find any excuse for a trip. I ~ould say, cut out this travel!ing at the drop of a hat or any fli~sy excuse.

June. 6, 1978 !ape 3999 EC - J HR. ~iEARY: The government cannot wait now, Sir. to get the House cloeed. They cannot ~ait to close h.er dovn. And tonight, ~r.

Speake=, i! we wanted.to filibuster on the Budget Speech and the go~ernnent did not 3et their esti~ates through ~Y tonight: the Uudget Speech did ~ot end becnuse-for the benefit of those ~ho ~ay not realize it~ and so~e people here on the floor of this House may not realize it, but in order to get ~oney to spend after nidnight tonight~ the gover~ment have to do one of tva chinas, they have to finish the Budget Speech because money cannot be spent until the Dudget Speech is finished; bring in Interi~ Supply because the. government only introduced a bill for tvo oonths Interic Supply and chac is finished as of m!dnight tonight if not ~idnight tocorrow night, and so ve could hold up the Oudget Debata i£ we wanted to and nobody could be paid to~orrow. !onorro~ is payday in this Province.

Nobody vauld be paid- nutse~, doc:ors,

Tape 4000 PK • 1 Mr. Necr·t: teachers, highway workers, civil servants, nobody wau 1 d be paid if we carried on the Bud9et debate for another week, un 1 ess the government brought in interim supply ~ and I do nat know of any Minister of Finar.ce that has ever brought in a bi11 for interim supply the secJnd time. So we are quite prepared, Sir, to let the government have their supply by midnight tonight, when the time has run out, when the tirne is expired. We lire cuite :wepared to do that the reason we are prepared to do it.

Sir, is 10t to let the government off the hook. is not to 1et the ministers, is not to get the House closed down as quick as possible. H we did not do it:, ~irt peop1e on social assistance would suffer because they would not ~e ab!e to get :heir mother 1 s allowance or their socia1 assistance benefits and nobody would be able to be paid. So we are quite prepared to 1et that go through, and we will have other opportunities to debate when the Throne Speech debate is cal1ed. And we are 9uaranteed that that wi11 be called for another week.

But that does not mean~ Sir, because '#e are 1etting the Budget speech end by eleven tonight, or midnight tonight ~that we would like to see this House closed down because we do Xnow, a~d I am 5ure it must be evident to everybody, to a11 and sundry by now that the government wan~s to get the House closed down as quick1y as cossib1e .The Premier cannot stand it in this House, and r would not be at all surprised, Sir, 1f ministers a1ready have their tr~nsportation booked to get out of this Province.

And so i say another way to save money is to exercise a 1 itt l e stricter contra 1 over ministerial and senior officials' travel. And I would aay this too. Wr. Soeakert auction off the government :1irc:raft. the King Air aircraft that was bought f~om Field Aviation a couple of years back. Have an auction down at Torbay and get rid of that, Sir, and 1et those, Mr. Soeaker, today who get the free transportation on that governme~t aircraft for themselves, and ~et those, Sir, who transport 1obsters~ and their sa1mon, spend a little 11oney with tiewfoundlandjs orivate air transport com:Janies-

June 6, 1978 Tape 4000 PK - 2 r·lr. liearv: and their partiridg€'-let the11 spend a 1itt1e money with Eastern Provincial Airways that cou1d use the business, and auction off that government airctaft and save the taxpayers of this Province 1iterally ~undreds of thousands of do11ars, l would say tens of tflousands of dollars in booze alone. Because t a.::o c:aldt ar.

Speaker~ that everytime so~e cinisters step ashore off that air::rait they take a !::ott1e with tt,em when they are _eoin11 • Th.,.n the employees say," Well, if they can have one., I can have t•,,n !' 11 nd I waul d 1 iKe to see the booze bi11 for that aircraft. So 1 Sir, there is a:1other way that we can save money. My han. friend yesterday was talking about SSQ million. No trouble at a11,as far as I can seihto save SSO million. And. ~r. Speaker, a1sn, and t want to draw a distinction here; Sir, between fund raising and fund raising for oo1it1ca1 campaigns and political parties.

The difference isf Sir, and han. members on the government benches somehow or other when fund raising " comes up, when scandals develop they always say,ob,the other crowd ;:as 5ust as bad.u In other words,what they are saying. Sir? it is a11 right for us to do 1: because the other crowd was just as bad, when in actual fact, Sir, there is no hard evidence to prove that the ather crowd was just as bad. For instances Mr. Soeaker, is t1'1ere any evidence to show that ministers in the former administration were i nvo 1 ved in s hake-dm-ms, influence pedd1 i ng, extortion ,and fraod7 Is ~here any evidence of that?

We have evidence now~ Sir, hard evidence to show that ~inisters on the government benches were invoived in fund rais~ng, and I do rot know of one examo1e, Sir, in the Sna1iwood Administration wllere anyone of his ministers were ever invo1ved in fund raisirg, ~ 'iON. MEflSER: They did it. MR. NEARY: Who was it? AN HOM. t·lEMBER: They did it. MR. NEARY: name tllem. AN HON. ~EMBER: They ..,ere. -

June 5, 1978 Tape .tQQC PK - 3 M;l. NEARY: I :::hecked the other day with the former Premeir of this Provi nee, not one of his Cabinet ministers was ever i nvo 1 ved in fund raising, and if he was he wou1d have been f1ung out on his eal", :at.J .CARtER: (Inaudible). firsc. MR. NE.'IRY: But '.<4e have eviaence, Sir~ we have evidence of ministers in the present administrationt ministers mina you, not bagmen, ministers shaking people down 1n anticipation of future ~usiness, ~e:ting donations. MR. NEARY: NR.J. CAR!::.;.,: MR. ilEARY; Where is ~he evidence? i<ie have t.he evidence. Present i~.

The evidence has Ceen oresented,some of it1 and the rest of it wi11 be oresented in due course if the po1ice '"eport is not controlled. MR. /i. ROWE: Sat on. MR. NED.RY: Or sat on, installed~

Jur.e 5, 1978 And so, :!:-, Speai:.er, ::u!:-e is il vast difference in the ·,>~ay, Sir, parties raise funds. T:tis OJarty, to :::.y ::.mmledge, ;md I had it froo the gentleman •,:ho \Jas :!.::1. chilr;;e for r;...,enty-t!1ree years, did not condone in i:~o.t ::-.:enty- three years ministers going out ant ~eddling their influence to get party donatior.s in antic.i?ation of :;ark for the future.

But ;;e. have evidence of this crowd doing it, t:1is :-.on, cro1..;C,, ~nd sa, Sir, I would say t~at ninisters should be barred from anv connection · .. dth political fund raising u.nd ti1en, ~!r, Soeaker, :"atch the ?rices of construction and tendered services drop, save the taxpuyers of this Province nillions of dollars il year.

Then, Sir, I ;;auld suggest as another economy that the governr..ent take a fine!:oothed coob and go through ~e·,.,foundl::md Hydro and other Crown corporations for evidence of feath~r bedding and payroll padding, especially in Newfoundland Hydra, t:here peopl12 have been hauled in out of the rain recently because their tlusinesses failed and because they had buddies an the board of directors and in :1ewfou:~.dlu.nd Hydra were hauled in and put on t~e payroll, fabricated jobs, hioh paid jobs at that, Sir. Wnat it reminds me of, Xr. Speaker, i: reoinds me of a sort of a ~rovincial senate.

In c~~ado. if you support a certain party and the ~arty happens to be in power, or they want to do you a little favour :hey put you in the Senate, In this ~rovince, Sir, ve have our O'..'Tl provincial senate, 1.·e have ~ewfoundland Hydro • we have the Public Service Corporation, '.;e have the Newfoundland Liquor Co-rporation. "ffi. FLIGHT: ~~. )lEARY: We hod the Linerboard mill. ;Ie hnd the Liner~oard :nill. He have our 01-m senate in t~is Province ~~d that is how the present adcinistration rewnrd their friends.

They do not have to go up to the senate in Ottawa., they are put in the provincial senate, ~1ewfoundland Hydro, It is used to pay off party hacks and debts of personal

June 5; 1978 Tape :to~ 4C01 ~3.. :::1:.\P.Y: appoi::.t:ing a ne..,. chief .:utacucive of ~re .... foundland B.ydro, !et us ~e re~lis~ic, ~r. Spe~kcr, in the oattet of a s4larJ and fringe benefits and let us abandon the !dea that such a job :is a political plu.,-n <:nd enti:les the incu::.1bent co all the trappings of AN 3.0~. !·~!!ER: ~:R. }:::.\RY: Are you reading a .;rpeech. ~r. Speake~, I do not believe t have eve~ ~cad a speech in this Pouse. r Jo not believe I have evar re:td one. Hell maybe "When ! ,1yas moving the - ~;h.ac is that on opening day? Address-tn .... Ee.ply.

You move. the Address-in-Reply on npening day, 1 believe t~at ts the only cime I ever read one. I have notes L, frant of t:~.e. Tat:le th-et:~. '-f?... ~tE.ARY : Yes, Sir, ! ~ould be glad tot anC ! vould be glad to put the hon. gentle~an en the ~able, ! ~ould be glad to put the hon. gentlenan on the chopping blocK..

So. ~1r~ Speakert let us ge::: auay from this idea of th!nking thac this is n political plu~ to ~ay off one of Jour friends and that he be paid, S~r, a salnr; acd be ziv~ ~:inge benefits in li~e uith the going salaries, the ~oing rate of pay in this ?rovince, and ~n line uit!l our ability to pay, o.nd keep in mind) Hr. Speaker, th.ac we have: the second lo< .. :est: per capica incot".e in the ~-1hole of Car..;1da. And let us see the govertl:ile:Jt, ~-ir ~ .Sp~nker, exe:eci;;e S>Xl:C control over the g:cwt:!\ of the _;Jublic service.

I do not have the nu:':lbers in ftont :if r::e, Sir, !:ut ! 'Nou:d say that in both ntmbers and expenditures over t:.he la.st say four or five or six yearsj that cherc b.as beer:. <1 cre::.endous percentac:c. :.r,c.reo.se in t:te :lU';!!ber of public: ser/ant:s

June il, 1978 :~.. :!E.ARY: :J.nd- Sir, !n the sa:.aries paid :mcl che ectal cos: ~r ope~~ting ~h~ public servic~. :<r~ Speake:r 1 no wonder, ·.;hen y·ou lnok J.t the - :1n.:i I de :1oc :1ave the figures in :ront cf me but they ::;us:: !.e ::-e.o.enclous, is there. ar.y ~..ror.der, Si-:, thnt -wu are borrcving our •,;ay to ::he poar7!::mse z.nd )lacing

June 5. 1978 !ape 40!)2 EC - 1. a dreadful burden, Sir, on the taxpayers of th~s Province for the future - the future, Sir, Yhen so~e day ~e ~ill have to ansver to these international Shylocks who vill ultimately vant their ?Ound of flesh. }[r. Speaker. instead of finding uays to ecanoQiZe in rae past five yenrst the chief concern of our provincial brainthrust down on the 5th Floor seems to be to find nev ways to squander public funds.

They are sa busyl Sit, trying to find out ~ays to spend the taxpayers' ~o~ey that they overlook the treQendous opportunity to ecana~i:e and to save money - some of the eza~ples given by my hon. friend, the Leader of the Opposition yesterday and just a few that I have thrown out now in the last few minutes. Fifty ~illion dollars, I w~uld say, is a very conservative figure with a s~all 'c'. And, Mr. Speaker, what abou~ all the programmes that are available from Ottawa1 What about, Sir, the tre~andous opportunity afforded to this ?rovinee by £e~eral govern~ent economic aid and 1 mrtke work' programaes.

Instead of squandering tax dollars, Sir~ on abortive progrom~e$, as my h~n. friend indicated yesterday, the setting off of the dynamite on either side of the Straits of Belle Isle, the spruce budworo spraying prograrnce which will only benefit a few 1 co~e fron away' ?ilots and the chemical companies, we could be e~ploying chousands of ~en, S!~, on a federally assisted prograome of cutting, transporti~g and stockpiling vood froo already infested areas ready to be fed into our paper ~ills and even into the Stephenville Linerboard mill. Mr.

S?e:aker, the vote of ~on-confidence, Sir, also refers to corruption in government. And I would subc1: to Your Ronour chac chere are rnem~ers

June 6, 1978. Tape 4002 EC z ~m. NEARY: sitting in this House today, people listening to me in the gallery, and t would nor be a ~it surpr!sed but that there are ?aople even sitting in the press gallery, vho are not avure, Sir, that this gavernce~t came into ?Ower rotten to its very core, rotten to the foundation, SOME RON. ~EMBERS: Rear, hear! MR, tiE:ARY: This ¢Overnnent came into power, Mr. Speaker, on a payoff. by paying off a oember vho had been elected after that 1971 election when there vas a saw-off! and I refer to ~r. Williac P. Saunders, who at the ti~a was re-elected the mecber for Jay de Verde. ~r.

Speaker, the story of Mr. Saunders has never ~een told. It -.:ill be. And. Xr. Speaker,it vill be some dey. And every year as long as I aD in this hon. ~ouse ! Q~ ¢oing to refer to the Sau~ders scandal. :.rr. Speaker, hon. gent.lenen should be avare one of the reasons • :. think, and this is only a suspicion on my part, one o! the reasons, Sir, that I think that !!r. Jo~n C. Doyle vho the ?reoier refers to so ofte~ as the fugitive from justice the reason, Sir, that gentleoan has been banished and kept in exile ~ns be~auae that gentleoan happened to be in :-!r, Richard Green's houae back in 1972 when ~tr.

Wil::.iam P. Saunders' letter of resignation was del::!_ve.red to the: hon. the P~e~ier vho vas in the sace house at the saoe t::!_me. that is true, A::t HOt-:. :,tEH3ER: Ho.., a:,out:. that1 Yes, Hr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman knows It is not true.

June 6, 1978 1'ape 4802 IB-J tt is true~ Sir. It is t: rue, Hr. Speaker. !£ that hon. gentle~an could have t:he i~muaity of t:his Rouse, be ~roughc before this Souse, instead o£ being banished and put into exile~ i£ he were allowed to ccoe back and give evidence. Xr. Speaker, tha~ sa~e gen:leman~by the way,who u~ to that ti~e! only knew fro~ a distance, called ce the day the Rouse had opened,

June 5 1 1978 Tape 4003 PK - 1 "k. ~eary: ca11ed me about 1-:00 o'clock in the ;norning to te 11 me that Wi11 ia~ Saunders had resigned.. The government had paid him off+ Ke even to1d me ,,..,hat the price was, S200l000. AN HON. ~Ef16ER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: S!OO,OGO delivered in cash, ~nd $10D,COO in trust. And, ,~fr-. Soeaker, 1et Me re'Tiind the hon. the Premier if he laughs over there~ if he wants to 1augh1 that Mr. Saunders, Sir. came to a liberal Caucus ~eeting a couple of days before that. and told the caucus~ I was sitting there.- my hon. friend was there, on Mo11day -the House opened on Hednesday~Mr.

Saunders came to the Laurier Club on Monday and told the caucus that he had been in the Premier's office on Monday morning, that the reason he went up was because he was broke, he owed money and he 'danted the Premier to open the House so he could oay his bi11s. MR. W. ROWE: That is right. That is what he told us. MR. tiEARY: And two d~ys later he resigned. He does not even - if he had come into the House for one second that day just to get s·trorn in he would have gotten a pension for life. MR. W. liOIJE: ?1us his $10,000 - MR. NEARY: Plus his ;10,000. ,~fL W. ROHE: He gave that up, MR.

NEARY: The nan told us he was broke. l-Ie was brake~ he has not worked a day since ar,d then a11 of a sudden he takes off ~or Flord1a. Buys himself a Lincoln Continental. MR. NEARY: Buys a Lincoln Continental, gets the bank ma~ager out of bed in the wee hours of the morning so he can get nis travellers cheques so he can take off for Flordia, Not bad for a man who is broke. And let us see what the former Premier of this Province said about the gent1eban Mr. Saunde~s, when the Premier was campaigning in his fanner district of Bay de Verde._ Let us see what he said. Mr.

Smallwood told the meeting in Bay de Verde that Mr. Saunders resignation was pre-arranged with Mr. l..loores, and that the Premier de livered h l s 1 etter

June 5, 1978 Tape 4003 PK - 2 1-'r. Neary: of resignation to the Lieutenant-Governor He said the 1etter:i1 an unsealed enve1ope~was dated February 28. Well that is true. Sir, because I. have the 1etter here in front of me. ,A.nd for the first time in this han. House I am going to lay it on :he Table, because that is not the 1ast we are going to hear te11 of it. Becauset Mr. Speaker~ I may as we11 say this now that I have ~rave sus.oicion, Sir) that some of the S2.00,000, the money :hat v1ent to pay off Mr. Saunders came from contractors who were worXing on the Health Sciences Comolex.

And so if you want to get ~o the root of the s::anda1 in connection with the Health Sciences Complex you have to go right back to square one~ to day one, the Saunders ~esignation that was so expensive. And the government were so desperate, it needed the money; it went to some of the contractors who were on the Hea1th Sciences Complex. am told thut one of the contractors put up $100,000 to pay off Mr. Saunders so Mr. rAoores and his crowd could. get the government. Mr.

Sma11wood continued over in Bay de Verde~ he said,~ihe letter 1n an unsealed envelope was dated February 28; And that is truet Sir. 1'A few hours after the Legislature had ::een called in this Session 1 and the Speech from The Throne read, it was not delivered so that an Newfoundland could listen in on the television and hear that political manifesto':he said. Mr. Sma1lwood said he spoke with Mr. Saunders qn the teiephone on the night of February 281 and he told me that the last thing in this world he would do wou1d be to desert the Libera! Party or me or the new Leader. He also said, that ~r.

Saunders was 3roket owed some debts, a~d had no ~oney~ ana yet forfeited his $10,000 sessional pay, and even gave up a lifetime of pensfon to which he would have been entitled had he even w,ade an appearance in the Hause. 'Two days after the Legislature was dissolved, he said~ 'Nr. Saunders and his wife flew to F1ordia and have been there ever since. How fortunate Mr. Moores was, was he not? How lucky he was, and how thoughtless Mr. Saunders was. How careless was he to JiVe up 5101000 and the pension for the sake of waiting for the House

June 6, 1:978 Tape 4003 DK - J Mr, Neary; to ope'l. 14r. Moores will have to ans\ier for that one day:· And~ Sir. he wi 11 have :a af'!swer for it :=~ne day. That government will not be there forever. T~ere will be eventually a change of government. The 1-finister of Justice will have to answer for it one day~ the t>1inister of Transportation and CoftY'1unications will have to answer far it one day, that payoff. And here is the 1etter, Sir, dated February 28., which was a leap year by the way, Monday February 28, two days before the House opened., and it is addressed Building. to Hughie C:.1ady.

Clerk of the neuse of Assembly, Confederation "Mr. Coady: r hereby tender my resignation as the member of the House of Assembly for the Electoral District of Bay de Verde effective invr.ediately. 11 Effective imnediately, February 28. u! have advised ~is Honour, The Lieutenant~Governor

J'.l."te 6, 1979 by way of s1:cilar co;:z::utr!.cacion as ot ::::h!s date, Yours -respec.tfull:.·. !Jillia.:t P. Saunders. 10 ~;ow, :lr, Spe.ak.a-:. \-tas t.ha.t: letter deliv2red to ~tr.

Coady on tebruar:r Z8t:h or to :::he I.ieute.."1&tt C"overno:r on Februa-:::1 28th? iic, Sir. ! zm told it uas delive;:ed to none ot~er than :he ?ramiar a~ this Prov:!.nce a:td the Premie.-r of this Frovi:u:e ca:n:ia:d it crtound i:t ~is :;:ccke: n.!'ld the Premier o: t!l.e !?ro•.rince. brought; it down to the Lieutenant Governor on 1.V'etinesd<ly, t·.:o days ltttl:!t' ':then the House :,per.e:i aiter, Sir, cat'~"Ting :>ut cne of the J;l'!!atest tonsp:i-r.Jcies ever perpetrated on the ?Ublic :rensun• ::~f this Province, a one hour si~ting of the Hause :hat :ast the :axpayc~s a half a ~llion dollars. \ffi.

H.}L l' .. OW"E: Involving c:he Queen 1 s represt'!.r~tative. ~fR. ~fEA.P..'l: Involving the Lieuten.J:at Ccvernor, the Queents :epre:sentac:ive. Aru.i that night, Sir, lnte t~nc nig:ht 1 i~ednesdny. tun days later the lec-ti'>T ~:as delivered to ~r. Coady a:. his hc::1e i:t :he wee hours of c.he l':':opi.ng or late cv-ar.ing. t'\.l'elve or one o' clod~. After che Premier had gone to the Lieutenant: C.avernor the letcar was t:um sent to !!::-. Coady vho gave i ~ to the Speaker of the House and t.h<tt- is \thure I got r.h<2 ler.::er frott, the Speaker's records, ~r.

Sp~ake:. if there ~as ever n ~a::tar tn this Province that: should be investigated this is it. I do not have tir..c to so throu~h the scenario again 1 I cr.ly ha•:e forty-five c:~inutes. I wish. I h.nd mere ti:::.e to tell ::ou "-ll the thin!:is that I 1---..ncu ab-out chis -resi<;!lnt-io::.. But ! can tell hon. ge:ttler:.en no~: that the :::n:::e.r P:-eni.c-r also \:nc•_,; a'bout ::ais res:!.gnnt.io:t before the le::ter uus t!t:lhered 'Jy tha .?remier to the Lieutenant Governor. And ! might :>:ay t Sir, a..."lot11er interesting fact is thac tD.is :euer •.;as sent: to }tr.

Hughie Coady by 3. messenget' froC'. the ?reo.ier 1 s cffice. How does ::;at: st:t'i:!c che han, ;..ar.isten: of Jus:ice? Is th.at -~maush to varrant an imi'CSt.igiltion into it? :-fr. Saunders Las :never ~•orked a day since :a oy knc~od.edgc. Ah,it is a great big joke, :;reat :::ig joke ·Got. the. ban:-: mnnager aut a£ b~~d 1 got his ccavellers cheques - '!R .. '..f.:t. ;:.mm: !-!R. ~ARY: ~illion dollar rip ~ff, -and has be~n living co!:!lfortnbly ever since. :!.r. S-peaker,

Ju~e 6, :978 Tap.:a :io. 4004 IX - Z the rei'lson I raised it no;,· is bec:.use : thi:1.t:, Sir, I think ~~d this is o~ly a th~or; on ~Y part, suspicion that so~e cf chis ~one:y thttt vag ?ail.! co :!r. Saunders cane fro::-. t.he contractors on the Healcb Sciences Co~plex~ ~~d he~e is a lette=, Sir, taac hus never been f!Ut on the t11ble c;,f this t:cuse befn·e. We should put it o~ rhe t.::.ble of ::;:;z l-!ousc for ;,oste:r:itt i£ ~ot:hin:~ elsa. ~lr.

S;;u:.aker, it vas one of th~ greatest .5c.J.nclals, Sir, i:'l the histot;' of this Province. '..ihat a vay to ccnno. into ~Ot·>er anC. l':",y :ton. friend refer;:ed ::o it yesterday 1~ his vote of n.on-confiG;:.mce. 7:''H!Y" came in, Sir, !'Otten to t~e coore and they ha\!O: been rotten aver since. :row, i! :he hon. gt!ntle.man ...,lints another ex:sm?le let: us till~~ .:J.bout these. two ;:;lanes that I asked t:.he hen. minister about ~aclay, these two a!:rcraft: t!tat were: purchased. ?:::'ovision was made last: year in the estimates to ~uy c::;ese. t:;:o Canso ,bnes. !he ~anister of Forestry and Agt'icultJ.::re, when he t.•as putt:.ing his esr.i!:la.te:; through :he House,told t::e House that ~780.000 had been allocate~ fo~ capital expenditure to buy t~~ Canso aircraft. ! asked the ~inister today if he would confir,m what he said a year ngo that he knew uhere there wet'e two aircraft and the minister got up and $;aid yes.

As o ::1atter of fact,.a ;•ear :.go he said, ''We have C'.IO lined U? that ate ovailable/ That is one quesc:!.on I ?UC :::o him. nu~n I put another question co :.im and he told roe .:m a.;.rn.-e.r ~ this is :lay 24th, 1977 ilnd he said;,{.thile ! did ~ot think there t.·r.rre any Cansos lefc e.!.r.her. :1:::. Chaiman , ~'e did fi!ld two thnt are. in s;ood ecndition. There is no problc~ or very little problem wich spara parts for these Cansos ;' The mir.is:er said the government had found : ..... o .air:::raft anC. the r.ext thing we know, ;.tr.

Sl'eaket', the zoventmer:t t:alled ?UbU.c. tenders afcar they found t~e ~~ airc~aft:, They did not go out and buy the ait'craft the~selves or take adoption on the t~ aircraft t~ey found, tiiey called ?Ublic tenders a.nd this was al.l very easy and very cooveniomt because t:he only bidder :::he1 had vas tie::.d Aviati::m t~nd field Atri.ar:ion happens to be doing eig~cy per cent of their business Yith this ?r~vince. So !ield Aviation c.nne inca it nov, a middle man and, ~!r, Spea.kert for a

June c, 1978 !'ape :-lo. 4004 Canso airc:=aft that ~he gcve:n!'llent could h;::ve :jot:::ea ic"t $110,DOC ?lus a couple of hut.dred ~housand dollars for refurbishing i: <md putting r.}te r.~atet:' bombing equipme.nc on it r;:h:1t: Field havu o. patent: on .:,:p?arently -

June 6,1:178 !ape :-;o. 4005 AlH $110*000 and $200t000, $JlO,OOO m:axi::u.uo;, the governmenc should ~Qve paid for thac aircraft* ~ell ~nac did they pay fer it, Hr~ Speake-r, the one they have no1.1 delivered hera? They paid S3J5,000, they paid ~223,000 ~ore than they should nave paid. HoY aid field get:. jo.::tt:ied in rhe t:liddle? No1.1 the Qiniste:r: can argue that •.12 called public teruiers and t.he.y are the only ones r.~ho responded to the tenders. H:R.;~.ROW't; :·fiL :JE ... \.1{1! !t ~as a set-up. It •as a set-up, Sir, it was set-u~, it ~as all prearranged and I can prove it..

I do not have the time nov bur in the Throne Speech t ~ill prove it, Sir. because ! called the airline yescerday who sold tbis Canso to Field Aviation. They did not kno1.1 of the govex:ument tender, they had already advertised t:he aircraft for sale t.he.-"llselves in the Aviat:.ion maga:ine so the government should have be,1_, avare of ic.

I aQ sure,if the Director of Air Services was reading t:.hE~e aviAtion magazines~And on che ocher aircraft, Sir, ~ich 1.1as bought I believe ior $140.000, the goverm::umt paid $3351 000 and chey ha•1e got: to ?4Y another $193,000 to get it refurbished and g~t t~ water ~ombing equipr:amt put on it- Sl40,000 and they paid Field $558,00;) ,an;,l they never touched the engine on alther one of the aircraft:. , Sir.

So the government is paying aut:. $1.2 million for these two aircraft rcody tc fight:. fires 1 bet:.•~en $500~000 anci $600,000 ~re than they should have paid~ !iow, Sir, is it any wonder that I crieic.i::e che Director of A!r Services who actended the cpening 1 ~1th Field Aviation,of these public tenders t:.hat all looked so nice and all locked so legal wben in actual fact, Sir, it.

"Was a put-up job1 ~\nd that is why 1 have no S)-rnpathy ~i~h t:.hat particular gentleman for allo~ing t:.he public treasury to be ripped off for ~500 1 000 or $600,000 and Cod only knows ho~ ~ueh of it found its way int:.o other pockets along tile line. Ihen the metlber for St.John's East (ar.Marshall)has the gall and the nerve to eet up and suy 1 nUh there they are over there swearing and crucifying public: servantsu :i'R~F • .S.RDW'E: He blamed everything on the Civil Service.

June 6,1978 tape !io. 4005 AH-2 HR .• :iEARY: And the hen. gentleman ~ot up the other day and blamed everything on the Public Service. It is our job, Sir, to protect the Public :reasury and as long as I have an ounce of strength and my health holds out that is -wh.at I will continue to do. The Minister of Transportation and Communications should look into this matter and the hon. gentleman I :nust say has been most co~operative up to now, most co-operative, ER.H,COLLI:1S: !·!R, ~IE.UtY: We are all co-operative, ar.

Speaker, I illll not blaming the hen, gentleman by the way, the hen. gentleman has been most co-operative. But, Sir, I am going to find out why Field Aviation were jammed in the middle when the government could have gone and purchased these two Canso planes direct if they knew where they vere The minister told us a year ago they knew where they were and they could have bought theQ for between $500,000 and S600,0UO less than what they paid for them. Ncv, Sir, that is not a bad saving for the Public Treasury,that can buy a lot of shoes for the people my hon. friend from St. John's West {Ur.

Kitchen) vas talking about the other day. I am not finished with my research on this one yet, Sir, but I will tell you one other little interesting fact. ! am told that the same lawyer that represents the company that sold this Canso to Field Aviation also represents Sealand Helicopters. HR.W.ROWE: Where? W1l.at city is that? ~IR. NEARY: !1R. W. ROWE: ~lR.NEARY: !n Toronto. There must be (Inaudible) liot a bad coincidence either. The things that you turn up in your research, Sir, would cake your hair stand on ends. !,IR.W.ROWE: Are they the same bankers? HR.

NEARY: I do not ~now if chey are the same bankers or not, I \Will have all che inforcation before I am finished. But,Sir,! am running out of time now and I will deal with the catter again at a later date,

June 6,1976 Tape :\o. 4005 Pl-i-J :-B.. ~E..-\RY: This budget, ~!r. Speaker, represents ::he floundering death ::hroes of a :;;overnmcnt ;.;ilich lost even ::he m::bition to cope w-ith probleos and opportunities • nnd the ldnd of thing, Sir, to ::heoselves attd to the ordinary citizen of the Province that could be done by r::.embers on both.

Your lionour 1 5 left and Your Honour 1 5 right, the i<ind of thing, Sir, that could 'aappen at the end of the debate on this ootion of non-confidence would be for oeo.bers on both sides of the House to t;ive full support to ::he motion so that the people of this ~ravince cay elect a government w'hich -will stop mouthit<..g-off about priorities and planning and really get Jown, Sir, to the formidable task, the formidable job of governing :iewfoundland and Labrador l1anestly with dedication and com::J.on sense, with the determination,

June ' o, 1 "178 !n.pe ld}f'IF, :JF - 1 ::!!,, s. :;EA::.Y: !!r. Speaker, to ~uC;et: for success and not "1-;udgc:t for failure and Hith. the firn resolve, Sir, t!-:at: He uill set: our ::ina.ncial ~rouse i::. order. S:J'~ no:-r. !rr'""',:!'!S: Hear, hear~ The hon. ~e~ber for St. Jo!-:n' s. DF .• Cf':LLI;IS: "r. Speaker, ! think ! cnn assure :he 1.:-.st ::r;:eal:er that :1e is in good :1ealt:h and strengt!l..

I t:hiPk ho:! gave a forceable r<_cl:!..vecy as he aluays <!oes. .\..s a ::-,atter of fact, I always ~ave been a little hit amazed at the ::on. r:'lenber. ~·ost r._err:hers in speal:ing they t-•ill speal: in n. certe;.in vein then they will t"each a \.;eig!1t anC. then they •.·ill 00 do'l.-'tl then they t.Jill reach another height but the hon. member goes full blast t!te uhole t::!.:r~ o.nd quite ~tonestly I :1o not knm.; hoH ~e does it1 he seems to sustain a :ull '!:.end of pt"essure throughout. '''! approac~ perhaps ..,ill be sot:r.e'.1hat dif!:er<:!P.t than that.

Different in another respect also. ;:e .are speaking on the Budget, in other h·o:-Cs the finances of the Province and one Hay of checking on t!'le financial position of the Pt"ovince or the use of the monies available to government :i.n governing the Province is to see if the :::one::-- is ·~·ell used Ot" not. :low, it seems to c:e that the Opposition tends to concentrate on <:1hether it is poorly used on the basis of, perhavs, s!:ultluggery or outright 'Jaste. and I thin!-:. this might ':Je n legitimate attack to tal·e, I t!1ink if thct"e is pt"oof fat" it ot",indeed 1 if there is reasonable suspicion for it I would not object to that at all.

I think, if it is Cone ~tithout suspicion 1 if it is clone an Phi:n or if it is done, t"eally, without oany facts to suggest it-t do not riemar>.cl Cl.bsolutc proof because often tl::e proof only -:or::es out in the discussion - but if it is donn with ver; little basis I would t~ink that would '!:le rather it"responsible. In any case, ·-~r. Speak.er, I do not !.ntend

June 6, 1~73 Tape 4001 DR. COL!.r:s: to go that way in rcy rcr.:t<1r!'-s. I would prefer to look at :-i:)E!t:J.er be ;:.oncy is :,eing ;;rell s:;ent or not. in loot:ing at soc.e progrnm.See if t!1e program is appropriate not i! there vas t.[ror:gdoin£ in n.rl'!':".inistcring t!-le program but see if the prograc it~elf is appropriate and doing •,;hat it is supposed to do. :-.re all tal-:e our ot:n particular interest in regard to the finance of the ?rovincc and. I do not t!l.ink it vould come as a surprise to :1on. merr.bf:!rs if I '.o~ish to talk in regard to the !1ealt'1 fieV-1..

The question I ·want to get into is are we gettin-; our money's worth free the money •_.;e are putting into some of the health programs? ~:ot.f, before I go into thnt, :-:r. Speaker, I •.·:auld li1:e to say just n few uords about r.ty m~n district, the district of St. John's South. There are a few particular points in regard to r:ty district that I uou!d like to discuss with han. r::cr.bers, The first one is t!1e C:l dock. Hen. nect:ers t.:ill knot.: that the c~; dock has beeil on hard tin:es in the last fet; years for a number of reazons. I >Jill not go into these.

But great effort:; are beine nade to turr. it around and the rnanazement there I think is a very 0ood one at the present time. One of the measures thev are taki:lg is to try to get the contract for the refitting of the Russian fishing fle~t uhich has becor:e possible since t!1e Z-'Jn nile limit car.1e in. .\nd hon. mem:;ers ':.Jill have noticerl that there ;.;as an experimental program of t'10 nussian trawle-rs hrought in this year. I ar.1 infonect by people in the know at t;-..e doc!: that t'his has gone Vf>.ry well.

They did not quit.e get t!1e a~ount of t!Od: per ship t~ut ::hey uere hopint: ::or ~ecause the contract means,or part of it means that t~1e c-reH thenselves can do some of t!-le Hor!;. and t!lis was a sa;-;-Off. I suppose it ~as il cornpril7lise that :tad to Je arrivr>d at so that they did not quite g0.t the amount of w·ork they '1ad hoped for hut they (!ot

June 6, l?iS Tape 40fJfi D .. - 3 DR. COLLI::S: certainly sufficient to continue the yro(!raa and t~ey 1 ~ope to ir.:prove on this perfoc::ance in the f·;:·_r::~, In ot::e.r !vords: t!-tis experimental ?hase :.'<lS a success. to ti1at and thnt is t~e r:uestion of a Synchrolift for the dock.

I :~now c:1at 1:on. :':lenJ,~rs on the other siCc or at least some of them f2el that this eight '!Je a t'1reat to other areas of c:1e Provi7tc<2. ;;hatsoever; t:!cat any Hark that a S)'nchrolift will do at tbe dock c;t r::~e ,...: ;:ill be o;.iorl: that Hill :-,ct :.Oe don.e here if tl:',at synchrolift is not brou:;ht into operation <1.nrl will not tt'!h! ·;art·. avn:; frot'1 0.l<;~T;hcorc. As .:':! tlatter of fact,:i.t is ver"J lih:!lv tcenhanse t!;,e total ;.;ark n.vail::t~l~ to t~e Province tnk:i~::; n.-::n:r fron places li1:e '-:ut-a. ann so or: and so forth and that in actual :act it vill be

June 6, 1978 Tape 4007 PK - 1 Dr. J. Collins: good ,;1~ the 'fJay around. Now regrettably the decisfnn "'"~ rnt: "et been made by the federal authorities to fund the synchrolift. All the information has gone up there. The Provincial Government has given its blessing to it, as a matter of fact it has given its strong support to it. And I was pleased to see that \'•hen I made representation to government to emphasize that report there was no hesistancy in doing so. And I am informed that the federal authorities have this as a high priority but that in actual fact it has not yet come to pass.

The dock also has a big refit job due this Fall, that is an the Robert Bond, and I was very pleased to see that. I made great efforts at one time to make sure that there was suitable provision made for the refit to be done in St. John 1 s.

This is something that our dock has always done, but there was danger of it going elsewhere, and I made an approach to the General Manager of CN Marine and finally got a commitment from them that even though the conversion of the Robert Bond for the Labrador run was being done elsewhere, the annual refit would come to our CN Dock. ihe conversion itself is being done in the Province of Quebec and I think this is a pity but it was probably unavoidable. ihe CN Dock was originally instituted for this very reason,that is to take care of the coastal fleet in our Provin~e, and here was the biggest job to be done on the coastal fleet.

It was a $4 million conversion job and it had to go outside of the Province. Now this was a great shame, but the time constraints were such that our dock could not handle it. T~e1' could have handled it if the job had not to be completed towards the end of the year. In other words, if this season did not have to be taken care of, this season on the Labrador run. But the word \'las that it had to be ready for this season, so th?t it did go outside of the Province. I will be most interested to see if the contract that was let is lived up to, and that in actual fact the Robert Bond conversion will be

June 6, 1978 Tape 4007 PK - 2 Dr. J. Collins: completed in time to start on the run in the first week of July, which is just a few v1eeks away~ And if it is not ready for that and we do miss this season,I would think that a word of reprobation is due to someone that this job was not done, this major jab was not done in the Province of Newfoundland. I would like to turn now just very briefly to another area of my district. and that is Fort Amherst.

I have mentioned this a number of times in the House, Perhaps the hon. memlers are a 1ittle bit sick of hearing about it, but it never ceases to amaze me that a capital city of a ~rovincEof Canada there is an area which is without water and sewerage. You know. that seems a most incredible thought that there are people living in the capital city of a province that have to be serviced by, I think, it is a honey cart and a water truck in this day and age. have made representations to the Municipal Council a number of times over this and finally I think,that it is in their proposed budget to do something about it • .

Now., this raised a very interesting point. If these worthy families, some thirty to forty families, hard working, do not think there is one family on welfare, were in any other area of the Province, certainly in any unincorporated area, there would be no problem in getting money for water and sei"Praae, at least there is a very good chance of getting it. But the very fact th-.t they are part of a major municipal authority and that authority could not see its way clear to supplying these essential basic services meant that they had to do without them all this period of time.

You know, there is something wrong there. So what does one do about it if the municipality cannot reach on it, and you have to believe them when they say they cannot reach on it? The only thing to do, really~ is to go)despite the fact that these fall within the ambit of the municipal authority, the only thing to do is to go to the Provincial Government. And this is what I did, and I am glad to say that the Provincial Government, in the person of the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing,did very gratifyingly come through with a measure of support.

June 6, 1978 Tape 4007 PK - 3 Dr. J. Collins: I am not exactly certain of the details, but a measure of support which, I think, will a11ow the municipal authority in St. John's to get on v1ith at last supplying water to Fort Amherst. Mr. Speaker, there are other matters in my district which think are worthy of corranent, but time being such 1 will just mention one other and that very briefly, that is, the NIP and RRAP progra11111e

June 6, 1978 Tape 4008 PK • 1 Or. Collins: in my district. It covers a very large part of my district, and think it is one of the best things that has happened in St. John 1 s far many a year. r am informed that street work in the NIP area of St. John 1 S South will commence this month. And also, tenders are being let for the Brother Eagan Field which will be a major new recreational area badly needed in an area of St. John 1 S that has almost no recreational area. I should not say none because there is Victoria Park, a rather rundown minor f"1C't l"lT 1and rlith a bit of grass growing in it.

That has been all that: has been available to the citizens of my area for years, so t\".ere has been something there. But the Brother Eagan Field will become the major and much needed recreational area in that oart of the city. It will include a softball field, a soccer field, t'-lo pliss)~ tennis courts, tennis courts which may be flooded in Winter for skating, changing rooms for all of this, and off street parking. And , I think, it is a measure of the times that these facilities are being designed to accommodate the handicapped as well as the average person. Mr.

Speaker, r could say more on my district but I feel I should go on to the other points that I wish to make. I suppose it would be not unexpected if I did say something about the spray programme that is imminent, and in particular in regard to the motion that was passed by the Newfoundland Medical Association recently. As you will recall, Mr. Speaker, that motion advocated that water supplies in the immediate proximity of human habitation be avoided , not that it was ever intended that these areas should be sprayed. I think the han.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture has already pointed out that there was to be a buffer zone around water supplies and around communities, and as he said this is for psychological reasons. There is really no basis in fact or in reality for doin9 this. I think that this can be readily understood if one said, suppose you were not spraying this material but you were sprayino a known toxic substance,perhaps a bacterial substance, perhaps cholera or a food poisoning substance, would people be reassured,as the NMA ~auld seem to indicate they were reassured,that it was alright to spray

June 6, 1978 Tape 4008 PK - 2 Dr. J. Collins: this stuff as long as you did not go within a mile or two of a community or a mile or two of a 1>1ater supply: I think, you know, we would not countenance that for one second. So the point is that if you are going to spray hecause vou do not feel that it is a dange~ spray 0nd you could spray ri~"'ht into the community itself.

If you think that it is toxic or dangerous you do nat spray anywhere, leaving a little buffer zone might be a good psychological point as the minister says, and I do not downgrade this psychological aspect, I mean that is what,presumably, politics and public relations and salesmanship is all about. But in actual fact ..,,e should not base a11 our attitudes on the psychology of the thing, we should base much of it on reality. And, I think, a realistic point is this, Mr. Speaker; the people in Gander have sho\'m a concern about their water supply, which is Gander Lake.

Although this concern is legitimate to have it is quite unrealistic. I have done a little sum which r think shows this quite clearly, and members can check the figu~es if they wish, but I have done so, and I am quite convinced that they are valid. Gander Lake from ,which the town draws its water supply is approximately­ now these figures are approximate, but they will do to serve the puroo::;p .. r::ander Lake is approximately twenty-five miles long, about a mile wide, and at a conservative estimate, 150 feet deep, an average area.

If one does a little sum he can see that this Lake contains 584 billion gallons on that basis, 584 billion gallons. The Canadian Safety Standard for Matacil, and this is a standard,

June 6, 1978 Tape 4009 IB-1 DR. J. COLLINS: this is a dilution of the material which can be consu~ed safely so we are told, and ~e have to accept these, these are the authorities,over a long period, over a year and you are still safe. :1ow using that Canadian Safety S.tandard which is 100 parts per billion for ~atacil, it means that ve could put 58,400 gallons in~o Gander Lake to reach that level. This means - I am not certain how much is in the drum, is it 100 gallons? AN RON. }fEHB ER: Fifty. JlR. J. COLLINS: Fifty. All right, r.,;e will take it fifty.

That means you could put over 1,000 fifty gallon drums of !!ataci1 straight into the lake and you would still be within the safety limit . Now, the area is going to be sprayeU twice at an ounce per acre. That is two ounces per acre. Using that yardstick and the figures I have given you could spray 9.5 million fluid ounces which would therefore cover 4.75 million acres to reach that safety level.

In other words, to pollute Gander Lake and therefore be a danger to the water supply, to be able to do that, one would have to spray 4.75 nillion acres,all the runoff would have to end up in the lake and there would be no breakdown of the conpound in the interval. This does not even allow for the runoff, the normal runoff down the Gander River, the lower Gander River and so on from the lake. So I mean this is clearly quite unrealistic.

There is absolutely no danger if this was a toxic substance to the degree thought about, there is clearly no substance to that fear, and I am really surprised that the NMA went for the old potato of a little buffer :one around the lake and around the town.

June 6, 1978 Tape 4009 IB-2 ~!R. J. COLL!!TS: ~ow just one other word on the spray programme. I will do this very briefly. Hon. members will have received a circular frot:t Ec.owacc.h dat:ed Xay, 1978 and it says,- 11 Ec.owatch, Corner Brook 'and it is entitled, "Spruce Budworm and Newfoundland Environment Study:• Sow, f!r. Speaker, I have gone through this and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, I think I can anyway, that there are some quite distinct untruths or misinterpretations or .,.hatever you vould call them in this. On page 15 of this document it is stated here, In 1974 Dr. Crocker produced Reye's Syndrome in mice:' Now, Mr. Speaker, that refers to an

article written by Dr. Crocker and associates in a scientific journal called Science on page 1351, volume 192 and I reviewed this article. And whilst J::c.owatch comes out and says he has produced Reye's Syndrome~a reaPing of this

article does not state that at all. A reading of this

article states that there were changes in these mice under experiment. It says as follows; "There are two patterns of fat distribution in the liver of our experimental animals, a diffuse fine pattern seen in these animals treated with the carrier. That is not the drug itself but the emulsifier and the solvent and then injected with virus and the virus is the organism which causes brain damage. So these mice were injected with substances plus a potent virus. So there . ..,as a fine pattern and then large fat globules. And the statement is made that the pattern of fine dropped liver cell staining has been stated to be characteristic of Reye's Syndrome in children.

Tape No. 4010 AH-1 DR. COLLDIS: !'his is a misinterpretation to say this; this is much too strong. Crocker himself did not say he produced Reye's Syndroc.e in mice. He said he produced changes which were suggestive of ?-eye's Syndrome in humans, he did not make this statement that is said in Ecowatch. Now even core important than that, the figures are wrong. Eco~o.-atch states here,''Dr.

Crocker produced Reye's Syndrome in mice by exposing soce to fenitrothion, some to DDT1 and others to a combination of fenitrothione and DDT,and then injecting them with a sub-lethal dose of known Keye's Syndrome virus. :,rortality rate in the fenitrothion e group were six to seventeen per cent,in the DDT group four to nine per cent, in groups where both insecticides were used thirty-three to sixty per cent. A controlled group exposed to corn oil and injected with the virus resulted in no deaths." Now, Hr.

Speaker, one can go back to the actual results produced in this paper 1 and it will be seen in this that in actual fact rather than no deaths in the group treated with C~Fn oil alone there were in fact a mortality rate of six per cent up to twenty-six per cent depending on the dose of virus given. the animals were treated with corn oil and then given various doses of the virus and,depending on tne dose 1there was a mortality, a very distinct mortality.

As a matter of fact,it was greater than the mortality that one saw by injecting the virus into mice treated with UDT which was only five to fifteen per cent, greater than that in mice which were treated with fenitrothione which was zero to siz per cent. Where theEcowatch went wrong was that in the group that were treated with the ~~ulsifier- that is the solvent and tUe emulsifier, not the medication-the mortality was higher, it would range from thirteen per cent up to ninety per cent.

I think it is interesting to note t:he comments made by t:he authors.• They said, "The mortality rate was much higher in animals exposed to the mixture of solvent and emulsifier and subsequently injected with E.HC virus than to those given corn oil alor.e or pure insecticides. The results show in figure l(

c) indicate that the fenitrotlrlone would appear to have a protective

June 6,1978 Tape ~o. 4010 AH-2 DR.COLLI~S: affect on the lethal reaction, This protective affect 1'-.as been observed with structurally related organa phosphates in other toxicity studies. So than rather than the Hatacil - I will not say that, r .:llll sorry• This is no c.

Hatacil: this experiment was not conducted in regard to aatacil, This was conducted to another but related insecticide, P~ther than the insecticide itself causing a disease that may be related to ~eye's Syndrome, ln fact it had a protective affect and if tnere w~s an affect at all it was from the emulsifier and from the carrier .~o that :he infatuation given in this t.hing in certair.ly :hat respect, and I have a few others that I '4ill not take the time to go into now, was quite misleading.

This is not a s~ientific doc~ent even thought there are all sorts of references in itt Looking at it, it is not even drawn up in a way that a scientific document is draYn up • This would never £et into a scientific journal. I see that the han. member for St. John's West (nr. Kitchen) agrees with me. to ~y on the ~pray programme. So that is all I would lil~ How going to the main topic I would like to discuss-and I think my timing has not been too good- the health care field, the financing of , that is tne :et:.hod of financing and whether we are getting good value for our money, just a few figures.

The cost of health services here in this Province in 1969-1970 was $59.J million. This rose to $80.4 million in 1971-1972, that is when chis administration took over control. So ttere was an increase there from roughly $60 million up to $80 million. From that period in time up to the present time,that is 1977-1978 - I have not got 1973-1979 in my figures here actually but

June 6, 1978 Tape :ro. 4011 JH - 1 DR. COLLI:ts: I think the more confirmed figures are the ones for lust year - the cost in 1977-78 was up to $220 million. !n other t,;ords,there uas a rise of approximately 400 per cent from the period 1969-70 up to 197i-78. That is an enormous rise, of course. !iow this doco aot mean that this rise i~lied these ~ere all new services being added.

I t:1ink :ton. oembers ·..:ill fully realize that ':!.any of t:1ese services were being supplied ?reviously by private individuals in the private sphere and this rise really was largely because health se~;ices ~,;are being taken over from the private sphere and brought into the public sphere. In actual :act if one looks at the proporticn of ~ney spent on health services, the proportion of our budget which comes to nineteen per cent,this is not outlandish not by any means. I have a fe>: figures here for some budgets in other provinces.

In British Columbia in 1976 there was twenty-three point nine per cent of ~he Provincial budget went on health services, In Ontario in 1976 it t•,;ent:y-eight point one per cent, In }lew Bruns.,rick in 1975t much similar to ours, theirs ~-;as nineteen point eight:. In :-leva Scotia in 1975 it was twenty-seven point three. Also the ar.ount that we spend in :.:ewfoundland per capita is not out of the ordinary. He have spent about - It comes to roughly seven per cent of the Cross Provincial ?=educt is spent on health services. So these total figures are not out of the ordinary.

We do not seem to be spending ~re than other provinces on ilealtb. services. ~low perhaps the other provinces are spending too much, I do not know,but certainly we are not out of step. That is not the point I am questioning. The point I am questioning is are we getting value for the money we are spending even though we are not spending more than other places are spending. ~ow of course when we talk about spending on health services we are talking of tt-;o t!lings :1owadays. He are talking on '!cdicare,which is the exhibition of medical care services,and we are talking on the hospital services.

These two makes up the total health care ?ackage with some others, with some administrative costs and so on and so forth. But t!lese are the bulk, really. As a matter,

June 6, 1978 Tape :To. 4011 sa - 2 DR.

COLL!~S: f.act if ! eight just quote <1nother few figures 1 i:1 the year ending 1978 hospital services cost this Province $165 million a?proximately ·whereas medical care, that is the services given not through the hospital mechanism,the cost is just over $36 cillion and that makes up sor.>ething eighty-five, ninety per cent of the total health cost hud~et. :;ow I thinl~ 'He should look at the effects on people of this expenditure. ~{ow just let us look at the indig·.:mt and compare hic,how he was before 'He began to spend all this money within this public sphc.re,cotpared to how he was when there was relatively little spent within the public sphere as most of it was spent within the private spherei that was before ~!edicare and before Hospicare carne into effect. f~d in terms of the indig~~t there has been very little change because the indigent previously had his health care services free any-;;ay.

The health care package • .. :as such that if you could not afford to pay, if you were a legitimate, if that is the right term, a legitimate indigent you were not charged either by physicians, by hospitals and by other health agencies. So that with the coming in of these tw-o expensive care ~echanisms,the indigent would only benefit in terms of how the general health mechanist:! itself developed. They got no specific help from these tHo mechanist.".s.

Now let us lool: at the next group 1 i-1hich are the poor people and t use ::hat rather bald term t1hich is not a ver; pleasant term,but I think it serves our purpose here. ~ow these are people who are not indigents. In other vords,they are not within, shall we say, the Social ServiceEcategory but they are in the grey zone. They are not by any means well off. They have a struggle to make ends ceet. N~N how do they fare1

June 6, 1978 Tape 4012 IB-1 DR. J. COLLI~S: Now I think they fair well in terms of the acute medical care. Previously if soneone had a relatively acute or a relatively minor illness he went to his physician or whoever it was or he went to his hospital and he had to pay the shot and this was a hardship on him, there is no doubt about that. So these schemes we have gotten into have certainly helped these people. Now if he is cronically ill or very severely 111 how is he helped? I would say he is helped but inadequately. He is not adequately helped by the arrangenent we have.

For instance 1 I might use an example here, suppose you have a carpenter, a good carpenter who makes a good hourly waget he may make, say, $20,000 a year. Now supposing he developes a duodenal ulcer, he has to go to his medical advisor. He has a series of tests. He is given a course of treatment for which he has these medications and so on. It is unsuccessful, so he needs surgery. So he goes into hospital and he has part of his stomach out and he is in hospital for a number of weeks and he is cured,shall ve say,and he goes home and he has a period of convalescence.

And say he lives in Collinet and he has his operation in St. John's and his specialist surgeon is in St. John's. This is not an unusual situation. There are lots of sioiliar people like this who live outside the oain urban area and travel into work. ~ow how is that person affected by his disease and how does our medical and hospital care system assist hi~? He is severely affected. For one thing,he is off work for I do not know how ~any months, and remember he is on an hourly wage so his annual income does not go on. Re does not get any sickness benefits and

June 5, 1978 Tape 4012 !B-2 DR. J. COLLINS: so on and so forth. Once he stops working he is without income. Secondly 1 he has large medical bills to take care of in terms of cedications and perhaps dressings and so on and so forth. These are not covered by our present system of health care. Thirdly 1 he perhaps has to go in and visit his doctor and sure his doctor's bill is taken care of, whatever it is, $6.25 for an ordinary office, is it? twenty-five dollars, whatever it is,for a specialist, is it?

He does not have to pay that but he does have to pay to get in from Collinet, get out again and so on and so forth. In other words,if you are in what I call rather, a poor term, the poor category and you have other than just a simple,straightforward illness for which really all you need is a visit to a doctor's office and certainly Medicare will take care of that, if you have other than that, if you have a significant illness, you suffer and our present scheme does not nearly cover the main financial burden on such a person. Now let us take the well-to• do then.

How do these sche~es affect them1 Firstly, in terms of acute health care our present scheme gives funds to such people with acute health problems which is ouite unnecessary. And again I could use an example. Take, say,our friendly banker or our friendly doctor or our friendly engineer or our friendly teacher, whoever is, and he wakes up in the morning with a wry shoulder. ~ow in previous years he might say well I will work this off and so on and so forth. 3ut not-t why should he do that?

He can go to his local physician, be seen, perhaps have an X ray, perhaps even a blood test where the total bill might add up to twenty-five or thirty dollars. Who pays this bill? The taxpayer pays it.

June 6, 1978 _!JR. J. COLLI!lS' Is it necessary? to pay it himself. !ape 4012 IB-3 Quite unnecessary. He is quite able The next night he would have no hesitation in perhaps taking his wife out to a restaurant or going to see a ~ovie or you could name many other things which would cost him the same amount of ooney. And if he does not mind spending money on those sorts of things surely he would not mind spending it in his own health regard. So it is quite unncesssary to give money to that individual. In terms of his severe and cronic illness, how do these schemes help him?

They really have not made any difference whatever because that sort of individual had health insurance previously and he was not severely strapped by these health costs previously and all we have done now is to take it out of the health insurance field and put it into the public treasury, put the burden on the public treasury which the taxpayer has now to discharge. So that those present scheoes we have are beneficial in some regards

June 6, 1978 Tape 4013 !B-1 D? •• J. COLLINS: but there are great gaps in them and,secondly, much of the money we spend is quite unnecessary and quite unproductive. ~ow another way of looking at whether this is true or not is to look at certain health indices. Perhaps the health index which is used practically universally in mortality rates in the early phases of life. ~ow this is not just an index of the health status of a community in those ages. !his really reflects the whole complexion of health care in the community. Now in 1969 the stillbirth rate in Newfoundland was 12.5.

In 1974,one of the latest figures I have - I have not got them quite up to date and there may be some change in more recent times but this illustrates the point - in ~974, now this was after at least five years Medicare and after something like seven or eight years hospital insurance care, the rate was 12 0 4. In other words,it was 12.5 in 1969 and 12.4 in 1974, almost no change.

In other words,certainly in this aspect,in this index, expending that amount of public money in the health care syste~ or~to look at it another way, taking a large part of the health care system out of private hands and putting it into the public has made no difference in the rate. the rate was 7.3. I might mention that in Canada So we were not quite double but nearly. The neonatal death rate in 1968 in Newfoundland was 13. In 1974 it was 12. Again very little change,where in Canada at the time it was 9. 7. In the post neonatal death rate in 1969 it was seven. In 1974 it was 6.2.

In Canada it was 4.6, I think that this again illustrates that we have not really got much value for our money with these enormous

June 6, 1978 Tape 4013 IB-2 _!}R. J. COLLINS: increases in public health expenditure through the two mechanisms we have in place. ~ow another way of looking at the effect of these two schemes is to see what they have done to the systen itself, and I have a small list here of the effects as I see them. Firstly, as I mentioned the institution of these schemes have led to the inclusion in the health care field of many personal care items, items that previously used to be taken care of within the family circle or by your rel!gious advisor or by your local pharmacist or what have you.

These items no longer are taken care of in a relatively inexpensive and just as expeditious way by these other agencies. They are al~ost all now done through the health care system at , as you will understand, considerable cost. Another effect is that laboratory and X ray examinations have skyrocketed. has been a point that has been underlined many times in the scientific literature. In other words,there has been a lowering of the threshold for doing these This investigations.

One certainly could argue that to some extent this ~as good,but I think if you look at it you will see that in many cases it was extravagant. In many cases it was doing through the laboratory,through relatively expensive means like laboratory and X ray,what previously used to be done through examinations, through a relatively inexpensive mechanism. And these schemes are such that they leave themselves open - r do not like to use the word 'abuse 1 because when people do these things they are not doing it for personal gain, they are even doing it

June 6, 1978 Tape 4013 !B-3 DR. J. COLLINS: ~ith very good motives. But nevertheless it is not the proper ~ay to handle these things. These sc:.enes leave themselves open to the abuse of these mechanisms, if you want to use that term. The third effect of these schemes has been a number of affects on the proportion of workers in the field themselves. There has been a proliferation of the administrative side of health care. He have ::nany more planners now, :nany more administrators now, many more committees are set up now. All these activities take people away from the exhibition, direct exhibition of health care.

There has been an orientation towards instituticns rather than to the patient. In other words,

June 6t 1978 Tape ~lo. 4014 J:! - 1 DP.. COLLINS: people say now I belong to ~ hospital or I belong to a group or ·.1hat have you. They do not say I am a doctor or I an a surgeon or Hhatever it is dealin~ ·.;ith patients. There is an orientation touards the institutions and a:1ay from the patients.

And the third thing of course in this particular ~rea is that there has been increasing encroach:!:ent of the •,r~rl~cal School :!.::.to se:-,;ice medicine. )iow azain :~is is a nixed blessi~g. !::. sane respects it is ~cod ~ut in other :.-espects r 3.r.l afraid in ~y view it is e:r:pire building on the part of authorities '.dthin the health care field. They are unnecessarily and expensively and rather cumbersomely taking over aspects of the ordinary clinicUl service health fields vhich are quite unnecessar:·.

Dringing it under the anbit, bringing it under the orbit, the unbrella of the '1edical School quite unnecessarily does not enhance the teaching ability or the researchability or any other aspect of the >!edical School but it does t:1.ake the whole thing more expensivet rather more i~personal and certainly is not in the bCst interest of clinical care. ftnd the final thing in this area what these sch~~es either have done or at least been associated with is that there has been an accentuation of the structure of unions and associations.

I do not have to bring to hen. members• attention that vie now have, say, a union which is not above striking,regretably,in the nursing field and we have now ar. associatiot\ in the nedical field \·rhich is not above excluding a member from medical practise if that person does not uish to belong to the association.

He,anG. when ! say we I mean this adninistration,has handed that power to the association, So t!-!.ese associations and unions and groups have had an accentuation of power since these schemes have come into effect, Now let us look and see what effects have not taken place '1hich one might consider desirable. As I mentioned, and this i>as been ~entioned by other hen. members in this Eouse - It has been l':'tentioned by the hen, member for St. John's North and it :-tas been mentioned by the han. member for St. John's West and it is somc.t:ting that I have already alluded to. These mechanisms, the medical care

June 6, 1978 Tape No. 4014 J!-1 - 2 DR. COLL!':ts: mechaniJm and the Hospicare !:!.CChanis:n have not extended benefical effects into other areas of ill health such as,I .::e:J.tioned,into the giving of drugs where drugs are needed, the givi:1g of transportation where transportation is needed, the giving of in :nany respects home care •.-rhen hot:le care is needed. Our schemes have not gotten into these ~reas.

There has been little effect an industrial health. !here ~ay be a fe-;,.- other r::ore people interested in public health as a sideline and there !:lay even be one or t~;o physicians who are now taking up industrial health as a career,but if so it is a very minor ~ovecent after a decade of public health care. And there has 'oeen minimal promotion of health. One could run dotm the uhole ;;a::::.ut of ages in terms of ?eople li~ely to be affected, For instnnce,the pregnnt mother and the newborn: There has been very little done to prooote good health in these areas.

We are still seeing mot!1.ers ~~ho have gone or are going through pregancy in poor states of healt!1, ?DOt' states of nutritional health. Their infants when they are born are undernourished and otherJise compromised for this, There has been ve~7 little effort or very little attack from our health schemes :o remedy these faults. In school health, very little has been done there either in terms of increasing the fitness of our school children through suitable recreational pro~rammes.

I say this even recognizing that He do have a Department of Recreation - R and P- and Rehabilitation but despite that the health scheme itself should !:l.ake more effort in this area. Our scher.:e should be orientated towards increasing the fitness of school children, increasing the nutritional state of our school children. In the youth area -

June 6, 1978 Tape 4015 PK - 1 Dr. J. Collins: alcoholism, traffic deaths, drugs, unusual and abnormal lifestyles, there has been very little specific approach made to remedy these faults. In the mentally retarded and handicapped areas,again we have done something there, but after ten years, and these are major health areas, we have not attacked them, we have not set up adequate schemes to bring much benefit in these areas, Similarly in the ages, we have done little to overcome the alienation and the feeling of disuse that the aged feel. Now in

summary, therefore, our present arrangements of health care have assumed the financial responsibility from the private sector and they have spent quite excessively, in my view, on manY non-essentials, with the result that there has been undevelopment of new and innovative areas of health care. We all recognize that the tax dollar is limited, and certainly the tax dollar can be given to health care is limited. And if you soend excessively in areas that are not necessary it means that you do not have the money to'experiment and to spend in new areas that are necessary.

Whereas if certain aspects of health are left in nrivate hands-well~this is a matter of discretion, personal discretion- you can spend all you want or you can spend as little as you want within certain limits, and it does not affect anyone but yourself. And I would say that government funds should not be spent in unnecessary or marginally benefical areas. t1oney that is raised from taxes,through that onerous system of taxation should be spent only on real needs. Now, Mr. Speaker, my time is just about up, and I will leave it at that.

Perhaps during the debate on the Throne Speech debate I l'lill have a few more words to say in this area, I make these remarks not in gloom and doom; I merely make the remark that we should look at our present mechanisms for supplying health care, take what is good in them, do whatever is necessary with the things that are in the public area that should not be there, and this means returning them, -and we have to face that this is not an easy choice; it is nrobably not 90in9 to be a popular choice- we should return some of them to the private sphere so that we wi11 loosen up funds that

June 6, 1978 Tape 4015 PK - 2 Dr. J. Collins: can be used for areas of ill-health and illness that are presently being neglected and should certainly be taken care of. MR. SPEAKER (MR: YOUNG): The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. fl. MCNEIL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. rise to speak on the non·confidence motion put forward by my han. colleague, the Leader of the Opposition.

And just to refresh han. members minds the motion reads as follows: 11 Owing to the Government's mismanagement of finances of the Province,resulting in the raising of taxes above the acceptable level, the downgrading of essential public services and a crushino public det-t; and awing to the r::avernment1 S misuse of public money, resulting in police investigations, public enquiries and the layinq, of criminal charges, this House, reflecting the 1.Jill of the vast majority of the people of the Province, has_ no confidence in the government}1 Nr. Speaker, I firmly be 11 eve that the Moores P.C.

Government has been the biggest disaster to hit Newfoundland. Since their years in office it has been one disaster after another. They say one thing and do another. For example, in the area of private enterprise, and this area they stated that they want to strengthen,the private sector, and in so doing th~Y made a decision last year to close the Stephenville L inerboard mill because they said it was not economically feasible, and that the government have no place in running the operation.

Now I can agree with him that I think government should not run the Linerboard mill but there is nothing wrong with a government owning the mill if they are not running it. I will leave that question of the Linerboard

Ju;;;,e 6,1976 Tape No. 4016 AH-1 }.lR.acNEIL: tidng aside for a moment and take for exacple any of the scaller private businesses which aretrying to get established here in this Province. What encouragement do this government provide? I trould say there is very little and to give you an example I will go back to my ow~ district. Just last ~onth we had an opening of the Day St.George Cor:::munity College.

The college is designed- actually there has been no neu building put there up-to-date; it is only a co-ordination of the facilities a~'id programmes of the former Adult :ducation Center and the Stephenville Crossing District Vocational School - the concept was put forJard to establish a community college and I believe that the idea is worth a lot of merit. But just on their opening year we have seen wrien this budget was brought down at least a reduction in their operating budget of at least $100,000,not a very good start for their first year in operation. But apart from that, Hr.

Speaker, tne college is spread out over the community in Stephenville with five separate buildings and one in Stephenville Crossing. A proposal was put forward by a local entrepreneur,'he pu~ forward a proposal to the government showing them without a shadow of doubt whereby they could save money, He suggested and recommended that they. consolidate their five buildings in Stephenville under two buildings and in so doing and taking this other building that was suggested, put forward, it would give the college room for expansion, it would give them ~uch more flexibility in their administrative area.

The idea was put forward by this local ~ompany, a Stephenville development group, they showed the director of the college whereby if they consolidate under this one building, Building No.360 - I think some hen. 3entleman are familiar with the building- that they could save money on a yearly annual basis and in the long run improve the operation of the whole college.

This proposal was put forward at least a year and a half ago and to datt! we have no action on t~1e proposal but instead what we have, we have the government stealing the idea from th~s local business­ man; the idea is so good that they now feel that th .. q should do it themselves,

June 6,1970 t-!R. :.IC.:-iE!L: T.:lpe :-.;o, 4016 AH-2 have their Department of Public Works do the work themselves and convert this Building 360 into a permanent residence for the Stephenville Bay St. George Community College. tlo\-,·, }ir. Speaker, if this is :he ~;;ay that the governr::ent is going to treat t.he small businessman, the backbone of our couHt::y, .... hen i1e has an idea, puts it forward to this government: ,has that idea stolen and ite himself by put:ting: this idea forward" itas lost an economic venture. :-iow, :-1r.

Speaker, tne proposal tha: was put: for•..-"Urd would not cost this .;;overnnent one penny • If the private entre?reneur '"ould borrow his money else'..i.tere, he woulu rent t;1e facility to the ;;overr.ment on a rent-lease basis for X nuober of years, all the government would have to do is agree to the rental agreement • !J.e showed t'i1e government wh..:.reby .,..hut t.1ey are paying out today annually he could save them in a new building .,..l1ich was more efficient to (..perate under and the government turned him down. \-ih:;'?

Because the idea was so rational and so good that they wanted to build it themselves. ~low in order to Uo that,Public Works or this government •.rould have to borrow t:he money and the amount that they would need to borrow and the interest rate would actually be no advantage. Co the proposal is in the government's interest, the people of this Province's interest to go with the private entrepreneur. Now also, Hr. Speaker, if the government wuld approve this programme it would guarantee jobs in a sagging economy in the Stephenville area,

June 6, 1978 Tape 4017 B-1 )!R. ~!C~IEIL: It would not only improve the co~munity college concept but it would also provide badly needed jobs during a down time period. Now I feel confident that the Linerboard mill will reopen again but it is a question of time,and during that period when there is a lag the government should be doing everything possible to ~ake sure that the economy does not go under completely. And then when you have the Linerboard operation ready to go in operation~ you do not have to start from scratch again.

You want to at least keep some of your good people in the community and have qualified people who are going from one job to the other rather than promoting the P.C. relocation programme which this government has already done so by having our citizens leave this Province altogether and settle elsewhere in Canada and,worst still,in some other part of the world.

The Minister of Justice when he was out for the opening ceremony stated that if the College Board of Directors could show him without a shadow of a doubt where there was a saving, a financial saving, that he would be for the project. ~low I understand that most of the people in the Department of Education are for that project and have recommended that the government accept the proposal from Stephenville Developments. Xr.

Speaker, I hope that the Minister of Justice had the time to look at this project in detail and I hope that he will soon make his position known so that we can get on with the development and get work started so that next year the college could have a facility equal to any in Newfoundland. I cannot overemphasize, Mr. Speaker, the importance of

June 6, 1978 :'ape 4017 IB-2 !iR.. ~CNEIL: getting on with the project nov. We need jobs now in the area. At the end of June when the school season closes there is an estimated riumber of families that are supposed to leave the Stephenville area because of no work, around 190 to 200 families. ~ow no community in Newfoundland should have to sacrifice its people, should not be in a position where they have to sacrifice human development for economic well-being. But people in my district in order to advance economically have to sacrifice human development.

And by that, Sir, I mean that they have to leave their families, they have to leave the area that they grew up in, they have to leave to get a job. And that should not be here in Newfoundland in this day and age. To give you another example of how callous this government is, in the Stephenville area after the mill closed the local people have gotten together and done a lot of ground work in trying ~o help themselves because they realize that this government is going to do very little to help them. So in the area of fisheries they have set up a Stephenville Fisheries Cocmittee.

They have initiated,in tonjunction with the community college and the Fisheries College,courses in navigation and fishing gear repair, etc, and there is a whole nev breed of people in the Stephenville area getting involved in the fisheries. At the Committee's request we have had several sites chosen for development. We had the regional Manager of Terminal Facilities do a complete survey of the Port Harmon to establish a site which would be ideal for the fishermen not only on a temporary basis but on a permanent basis. Five different sites were evaluated and then the recommendation came back

June 6, 1978 Tape 4017 IB-3 ~lit. !-!C~lEIL: from the Terminal Facilities Manager for a location about 300 feet from the existing dock. And the recommendation was given that we should be looking in teres of the whole West Coast in the Stephenville area. The fellow who was doing the survey ~as a~azed, He said he did not realize, he could not find any background information of the port's potential. Just to give you an example of one of his findings he states

June 6, 1978 Tape 4018 PK - 1 Mr. r~cNeil: in his report, and I quote, 11 Port Hannon has more ~tJatl'lrfront space than the Port of St. John's~ 1 Now, Mr. Speaker, when the Port of Harmon w most people speak about the Port of Harmon hut very few people spent qaod of it~ thev trv to downqradP it. But, Mr. Speaker, we have in the Stephenville area a port, and as the manager of the terminal facilities has stated,- 1 Port Hannon has a waterfront space larger than the Port of St. John's. 11 So this port space it should be at least a permanent fishing facility to acco~date a lot of the fishing boats on the West Coast.

As you know,on the Hest Coast there are very few places that when a storm comes up, where a dragger or a small boat can go in for shelter, as imany times we have seen in Port Harmon a lot of these small boats in tre area. Apart from that, Mr. Speaker, we have novt a local entrepreneur, a local businessman, a very highly respected businessman in Stephenville getting involved in the former Pac-Atlantic plant. ~1r. Speaker, this plant was closed down hecause the people of the day stated, and the company that was operating stated,that the operation was not feasible, and that there was no fish in f:l,p .Bay St.

George area. and that the olant was in the v1rong location- almost a repeat of Nhat we are seeing with the labrador Linerboard situation - and there was no market. Only a couple of years after it was closed down all the machinery I'Jas moved out of the plant, but we see the same crowd back again and saying that it was a mistake to take the equipment out of that plant, it was a mistake to close it down, our problem was just bad management. Now, t4r. Speaker, that story sounds a little bit familiar on a small scale when you compare it against labrador linerboard.

And now we have this local man getting involved into that plant, and I am very pleased that he is getting involved because now it looks like there will be stability in that operation. He is going to start off on a small scale and eventually work his way up. But just nearby we have a fi~hMP~l plant, and a gentleman has made a proposal to this

June 6, 1978 Tape 4018 PK - 2 Mr. McNei 1: government on several occasions to get that operation an the ground, and to date he has met ~>lith very little success, the main reason beinq that this government believes that he does not have a viable operation-or someone is blocking his application. They give t\.vo major reasons why the operation is not feasible and they turned down hi"s application for a small loan, the Department of Rural Development,because,they state, the Department of Rural Development, that he has no long term supply of offal, fish offal. And, secondly, he has a short fall in finances. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if he did not have a short fa 11 in finances why wau 1 d he be going for a loan, \•1hy \I'OU1 d he be looking for assistance? And on the second point of fish offal~in the whole Bay St.

George area we do not have a fish• meal Qlant of any size, and as a result we have a 1ot of the offal going on the beach, into the water, polluting the area, which is against environmental regulations. ~low on the question of the feasibility of his plant,the gentleman has put into the plant_ now this gentleman I am talking about \<~as, according to a nei'!S reoort I heard about a month back. 11€ rtas the technical man in the Blow Me Dorm plant

Jcne 6, 1978 Tape ~:o. 40!.9 ;~~ - 1 ~!R. '-!C!lE!L: in the Curling area. John Tibbets from I::c!ustrial Developn.ent has stated :!1at one of ti1e reasons uiry ~~e plant failed is th"t t~ey lost their tech::ical nar. and this technical m:tn nov has put fot""Nard a proposal to operate the Step!lenville fishmeal ;:;lant. He bas already ;mt into t!1e O?eration of :1is own noney, $30,00Q. Re ::uts spent the last eish::een :::onths in rchauling the eqt.:ipr::ent inside and repairing it.

And :1e states ::!l.at he firmly believes that tlJ.e plant ca:1 be vi.1ble and he asks oe, he says, "If ! t:~ougl;t it would not be viable,would I put m]' O'fl'n money into it?" $30,000 already sunk ir.to it; his til:le of eighteen :::'!Ontbs repairing the equi7ment tbnt is not tnblated at all. Hould he put that r.uch tir::.e into it, and ::toney, if I1e did not be live that it could be a success? And '>Ihen he con:es to the ;overn::l.ent asking for a little help, ::hey tell hi::t t~at: they refuse his application because of a lack of financing and a shortage of long term supply of offal. He also states, :-!r.

Speaker, I ,.,;ill just read a paragraph here from one of his letters. "Therefore, I cannot understand the Department of Rural Development >>~hen they take the position that no long term supply of offal would be available. !f they uant to play the numbers game, no person can say >lith any certainty ho~>~ much fish is going to be caught a.-,.ywhere in Net.Tfoundland in the forecoming season. Yet when it con:c.s to Bay St. George and the Port au Port region, ·..;e are supposed to predetermine the amount of fish that will be caught even before the season opens." Surely. :tr. Spealcer, even the people in Bay St.

George do not possess this facility. ~r. Speaker, I think it is just total disc.rir.~ination; this gover..!':lent has C.iscriminated against this gentl~~an's application. The Departnent of the Environment has given a letter of support to the gentleman and stated in their letters they state that they see no reason •.:hy his application should be refused

June 6, 1978 Tape :io, 4019 :~! - 2 :rn.. ~!C:iEil: ~~d they ~ake a reco~endation to the Jepar:~ent of Rural Develop~ent to supper: his application. Weeks ago I asl:ed the new ~-{inister of ?.ural Development to review the application and he did so llimself, took it into his own hands, which I appreciate, and he gave bac:-. a letter stating on the question of a supply of offal, he stated that :-rational Sea, one of the officials frcn ~.;ational Sea ?roducts, who do r.J.ost of the fishing in that ar