1982 Legislative Session: 4th Session, 32nd Parliament

Hansard

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

( Hansard )

TUESDAY, JULY 13, 1982

Morning Sitting

[ Page

8723 ]

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Vancouver Centennial Celebration Act (Bill 64). Second reading. (Hon. Mr. Wolfe)

Hon. Mr. Wolfe –– 8723

Mr. Barrett –– 8723

Hon. Mrs. McCarthy –– 8724

Mrs. Dailly –– 8725

Hon. Mr. Wolfe –– 8725

Urban Transit Authority Amendment Act, 1982 (Bill 51). Committee stage. (Hon. Mr. Vander Zalm)

section 4 –– 8726

Mr. Lorimer

Third reading –– 8726

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Tourism estimates. (Hon. Mrs. Jordan)

On vote 73: minister's office –– 8726

Hon. Mrs. Jordan

Mr. Hall

Appendix –– 8735

TUESDAY, JULY 13, 1982

The House met at 10 a.m.

Orders of the Day

HON. MR. GARDOM: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to proceed to public bills and orders.

Leave granted.

HON. MR. GARDOM: Second reading of Bill 64, Mr. Speaker.

VANCOUVER CENTENNIAL CELEBRATION ACT

HON. MR. WOLFE:

Mr. Speaker, the Vancouver Centennial Celebration Act provides a

vehicle, at the request of the city of Vancouver, for organizing that

city's centennial celebrations in 1986. Arrangements have been taking

place for over a year under a centennial commission in Vancouver;

co-chairmen are Mayor Harcourt and Don Hamilton, with a very large

committee functioning as an agency.

This act would formalize

the arrangements for that celebration. It provides for powers to raise

funds separately from the council itself; and powers to administer the

funds, to acquire and dispose of property, and so on. City council

consider this bill appropriate and necessary, and they have repeatedly

requested that it proceed. I believe it is similar to the form of

centennial celebrations adopted by the province on previous occasions,

and provides a vehicle separate from the city for organizing this

celebration in 1986.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of Bill 64.

MR. BARRETT:

Mr. Speaker, I have waited since 1936 to make comments about the

celebration of Vancouver's second 50 years. At the time of the 1936

half-centenary celebration — I was six years old then — I was

disappointed that the city of Vancouver did not have this bill to

empower itself to celebrate its fiftieth anniversary the way it should

have been celebrated. Part of the reason why it couldn't be celebrated

that way at that time was because there was no ward system in

Vancouver. Here they are, 50 years later, asking for authority through

this legislation for the city to celebrate its hundredth anniversary,

and there's still no ward system allowing a proper celebration on the

basis of neighbourhood under this bill.

When you delegate authority under this bill, giving power to raise funds and acquire property, how in the world....

AN HON. MEMBER: Order!

MR. BARRETT:

Mr. Minister, if you're out of order, correct yourself in the hallway.

I am not your physician; I'm not even your social worker. If you've got

a problem of compulsive talking, head for the corridor.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

MR. BARRETT: Would you call the minister to order?

MR. SPEAKER: To the bill, please.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, you're the one who called for order in

the House in conference. Only in this chamber can we have this kind of delegated

conversation. We can't have it in Vancouver through a ward system.

the minister says, this bill deals with the power to raise money, to

administer the funds and to acquire property. You're delegating

authority to this commission which the democratic decision of the

citizens of Vancouver can't have, on a regional basis.

appeal to the minister, who was present at the 1936 celebration, who

covets his little bronze medal.... You weren't there in '36?

HON. MR. WOLFE: No, I was too young.

MR. BARRETT: You were 40 years old in Alberta in 1936.

Even

though I was very tender in years, the naiveté that I had at six years

of age is still with me to this day. I believed that fair play and

democracy would have its way, that the citizens' will would be

expressed in a majority. Here I am, those few years later, with my

naiveté still intact, but it is being seriously assaulted by this

minister today. You won't even let the city of Vancouver decide for

itself how it wants to be represented, yet you pass this kind of

legislation from Big Daddy government in Victoria, saying they can

acquire property and giving them power to raise money for a centennial

celebration.

I know that most members of this chamber are

not interested in democracy. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Hon.

Mr. Vander Zalm) stifles democracy in Vancouver every time he gets a

chance. But I don't subscribe to his philosophy. In supporting this

bill I believe the citizens of Vancouver should have the right — on a

neighbourhood, ethnic and community basis — to be part of the

responsibility of making decisions about the centennial celebration.

For instance, there is a very large Italian community in Vancouver.

Last Sunday, on the back of a truck, the Minister of Municipal Affairs

tried to get on the bandwagon and pretend he was an Italian for a day.

So did I. It's good politics to be Italian for a day. But is it not

good politics also to allow the ethnic communities the right to have a

ward system and celebrate on a ward basis and a city basis in Vancouver?

doesn't even know what bill we're talking about, Mr. Speaker; he

doesn't care. The Minister of Municipal Affairs wore wooden shoes to an

Italian celebration. He likes to play a little bit of a dictator. When

it suits his purposes he shows up in a neighbourhood of Vancouver,

pretends that he's Italian and celebrates everything that went with

that day. And you're welcome in my constituency, Mr. Member.

want to tell you that even though he was booed.... I didn't approve of

that — I told my mother not to do that. But my mother, my family, and

the roots that I have in Vancouver East should also be expressed in a

ward system that should be included in this bill to celebrate a

centenary that includes the democratic responsibility given to the

citizens of Vancouver to decide for themselves what kind of government

they want.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Minister of Municipal Affairs will come to order.

would remind the Leader of the Opposition that a full-fledged debate on

the ward system would not be in order under this bill. A passing

reference perhaps can be tolerated.

[ Page 8724 ]

MR. BARRETT: I was only making a passing reference, although it takes me 40 minutes to get past.

MR. SPEAKER: I'll try to help you, hon. member.

Interjection.

MR. BARRETT:

I hear the voice from the great Peace River country again, the great

anti-democrat who doesn't understand that people have the right to

determine for themselves in a free society how they want to be

governed. They don't want to be pushed around by a dictatorship of

right-wingers that you support, who do not believe that democracy

should prevail in Vancouver.

I support this bill, but the bill could be improved.

Interjections.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please, hon. members. The Leader of the Opposition has the floor.

MR. BARRETT:

There is a certain courtesy that I would ask of the minister. I'm

appealing to the minister to understand that it is the taxpayers who

will ultimately pay the bills in Vancouver. I know it is difficult to

capture the attention span of the minister, but I hope to be brief. I'm

making a direct appeal to the minister to point out to him that

paternalism for the city of Vancouver on its 100th birthday could end

by allowing the citizens of Vancouver to have a ward system, and in

celebrating the centenary they could also celebrate the emancipation

from the overbearing hand of the provincial government. They could

celebrate freedom for the citizens of Vancouver, freedom for the

taxpayers and freedom from the overwhelming burden of a dictatorial

provincial government that even has to bring in this kind of bill to

allow Vancouver to celebrate its 100th anniversary.

I'm not

threatening that I'll be here for the 200th anniversary, but I want to

warn the minister that regardless of where my future happens to lie,

whether I happen to represent above or below this chamber, unless some

action is taken I will haunt the minister until the citizens of

Vancouver have established their democratic rights through this kind of

legislation to decide for themselves how they wish to represent

themselves. There are a few of us in this chamber who are native-born

Vancouverites, including the member for Vancouver–Little Mountain. She

was born ten years after I was. If that doesn't influence the minister,

I don't know what will. Even though she was born ten years after I was

— I stand here at the age of 86 — I want to tell the minister that time

is catching up on both of us. In the east end of Vancouver where the

minister and I are both from, they have always said that they want

regional representation and a ward system under this bill.

conclusion, let me say on behalf of the citizens of Vancouver, those

native-born Vancouverites and those who have all the ethnic, religious

and cultural mixes of that great city of Vancouver, that we should

improve this move today by having the government announce that a ward

system will be granted to Vancouver as well.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY:

Mr. Speaker, in responding to this bill, may I just pass comment on the

remarks that have been made by the Leader of the Opposition. First of

all, may I congratulate him in holding his age so well. He's looking

great this morning and he's in good form. He's been able to work into

this bill, which pays tribute to the great city of Vancouver with its

tremendous history and its remarkable and optimistic future, a

discussion on the ward system. We pay tribute to this bill that will

bring the centennial of 1986 into being for the city of Vancouver. He's

been able to work into this bill a discussion on the ward system. It's

been very aptly done, as the Leader of the Opposition can do.

It's

interesting that in working that discussion into this centennial act

that we have before us, the Leader of the Opposition made no reference

at all to the opportunity that was given to a committee of this House

to have an amendment proceed on the ward system in the city of

Vancouver and give the citizens of Vancouver a democratic vote to

receive that. It was that great financial expert from Vancouver Centre

who defeated that amendment in the private bills committee.

MR. BARRETT: You can't talk about committees in here.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY:

I appreciate that we have before us

an act which marks 1986 as the most

exciting centennial that the province of British Columbia has probably

ever seen, and we've had some remarkable centennials in our province,

as you will know, Mr. Speaker. In fact, there are many great

communities in our province which have marked their half-century, their

quarter century and some even 75 years. Then, of course, we have some

that have used the same format of this bill today in order to do that,

and this House has recognized that in other years.

I'd like

to pay tribute to the city itself and to the city's celebration. First

of all, because it marks the joining of the country from east to west

in terms of its railroad ties and its railroad history, 1986 will be a

particularly interesting year because of its emphasis on

transportation. Also it was the year 1886 that one of the very first

ships came to empty its cargo in the city of Vancouver from the Far

East, and so it again pays tribute to transportation. Because of that,

the Expo 86 celebration that has been put forward by the province of

British Columbia will have the city of Vancouver as its base and will

have at its base the transportation link and the transportation theme.

So Transpo 86 or Expo 86 will mark the celebration, and this bill marks

the recognition, if you like, of all of the people of British Columbia

and of the city of Vancouver's tremendous history, its remarkable place

in Canada's history and its remarkable place on the Pacific Rim of our

great nation.

I also would like to implore the minister who

has put this forward, my colleague in the cabinet and in

Vancouver–Little Mountain (Hon. Mr. Wolfe), that the emphasis on the

history of Vancouver should be well marked and well emphasized during

that year to the school children. So very often in our centennials, we

have given the young people of our province something to remember.

Truly, it is only by remembering the efforts of the pioneers of the

past and the great sacrifices that have been made in history that the

young people of today can understand just how much effort, work and

activity has gone on in previous years.

When one thinks that

it is only 100 years old, one must really be privileged to live in that

city and to have been at least a part of the history of the city of

Vancouver. There are probably very few cities in the world that have

such an

[ Page

8725 ]

effective, most attractive site on which to build. I think I can say with some

pride, as a Vancouverite, that we have had in history people who have been good

stewards of our parks system, our general plant and our city council, in order

to have built a city which is the envy of many throughout the world.

I pay tribute to that, may I say that of course we can never rest on

the laurels of the past, but we must look to the future. I would like

to implore the minister to pass on some of the ideas of what we can do.

I particularly would like to look back on a year when we celebrated the

Captain Cook Bicentennial in the whole of the province. At that time we

gave to the young people of the province a history of that first

explorer who set foot on British Columbia soil in 1778.

would like to suggest that we do some of the interesting things in the

city of Vancouver that other cities have done in past years. For

example, I look at the city of London, and other cities that we have

seen and heard of, that do some pretty exciting things with lighting. I

would like to see our Lions Gate Bridge, for example, lighted for the

centennial. I would like to see the new crossing that will, I hope, be

built for Expo 86 with some kind of attractiveness. It seems to me that

throughout our cities in Canada, because it is such a young nation, we

don't do the kinds of artwork and sculpture that is done in great

cities in Europe. I can think of the city of Vancouver calling on

corporations, good corporate citizens and organizations to do the

things which will give that effectiveness, life and a little bit more

excitement to the city for its centennial year. That could be a legacy

for years to come, because it would enhance the city and give it a

tremendously more exciting look.

This act proclaims a

committee and the 1986 centennial year for what, if all members of the

House who come from other parts of our province will appreciate, I

would say is the greatest city of B.C. I support the bill.

MRS. DAILLY:

Mr. Speaker, first of all I hope you will indulge in giving me the same

licence in discussing this bill which the Minister of Human Resources

(Hon. Mrs. McCarthy) just took at the beginning of her remarks.

I wish to say that the minister has lied. She stated that the NDP opposition voted against having wards, and that is a lie.

[Mr. Speaker rose.]

MR. SPEAKER:

Order, please. Hon. members are all aware that language which is

unparliamentary cannot be allowed in this chamber. I ask the hon.

member for Burnaby North to withdraw the word "lie."

[Mr. Speaker resumed his seat.]

MRS. DAILLY: I will withdraw anything that is unparliamentary.

She

indulged in invective against the NDP in a committee at which she was

not even attending. The words she used were far from the truth. Mr.

Speaker, I want that to get on the record. It's typical McCarthyism,

and we're fed up with it over on this side of the House.

I will go on to the bill again. As a native-born Vancouverite, as are many

in this chamber today, I wish to say that I'm very pleased that we're

all going to have an opportunity to take

part in celebrating the centennial

of Vancouver city. I have nothing further to say, except that I hope most of

us will have an opportunity to be there to partake in those celebrations.

HON. MR. WOLFE:

Mr. Speaker, I know you wish members would not engage in debate on

other matters when discussing the bill before us concerning the

Vancouver centennial for 1986. However, the member who just took her

seat made reference to the comments of my colleague here and I want to

say that she is well aware that government members on the committee

associated with this matter proposed an amendment which would have made

possible the introduction of a ward system in Vancouver. That is the

point being made by my colleague here. A reasonable amendment was

proposed by the committee members, but it was turned aside by the

member for Vancouver Centre. He refused to allow the amendment which

would have permitted a referendum on the introduction of a ward system

in Vancouver.

MR. SPEAKER: I remind the hon. minister

that matters which take place in committee are not of concern to the

House except through a report of the chairman of that committee. We

must insist on that.

HON. MR. WOLFE: I understand, Mr. Speaker.

are dealing here with the opportunity to celebrate Vancouver's

centennial in 1986. This bill was requested by the Vancouver city

council, which is already engaged in elaborate preparations; this

provides a vehicle for a number of activities to take place separately

from the city.

Vancouver's centennial will be celebrated

throughout 1986. The world transportation fair — Expo 86 — which will

take place between April and October, is going to be a very exciting

event. My colleague, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs

(Hon. Mr. Hyndman), is responsible for Expo. As Provincial Secretary, I

had a considerable amount to do with obtaining the approval of the

world exposition people for holding the world's fair at Vancouver in

1986. I'm very proud that this event is taking place, because it was

generated by my colleague the Minister of Human Resources (Hon. Mrs.

McCarthy), and others some years ago as a means of celebrating the

centennial in 1986.

This celebration is going to focus world

attention on the city of Vancouver. Some people say they don't want all

this attention, that Vancouver's a busy place now. In these times, this

is an optimistic, exciting opportunity to attract world attention to

Vancouver. Exhibitors are coming from around the world. Great Britain,

United States and other major countries are coming to Vancouver in 1986

with major financial commitments to participate in a world's fair based

on land, sea, and air transportation that will include the latest

innovations in transportation. It's a very timely and exciting event

that I know you will plan to attend yourself.

The bill

before us authorizes the commission to adopt emblems, crests, badges or

marks — in other words, a logo — for this purpose, as well as the

fund-raising capacity. I'm happy to hear my colleague from

Vancouver–Little Mountain indicate that we want to involve school

children and young people in these activities. I'm sure that's already

envisaged by the committee and the people associated with the world's

fair.

It's with the greatest pleasure that, at the request

of the city of Vancouver, I move second reading of the Vancouver

Centennial Celebration Act.

[ Page 8726 ]

Motion approved.

Bill

64, Vancouver Centennial Celebration Act, read a second time and

referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the

next sitting of the House after today.

HON. MR. GARDOM: Mr. Speaker, committee on Bill 51.

URBAN TRANSIT AUTHORITY

AMENDMENT ACT, 1982

The House in committee on Bill 51; Mr. Davidson in the chair.

Sections 1 to 3 inclusive approved.

section 4.

MR. LORIMER:

As mentioned in second reading, I want to say that this act is a great

improvement over provincial authorities for expropriation powers. To

that extent it's a step forward. However, there is a need for one

general and well-thought-out act to replace the 30 to 35 sections in

other bills dealing with expropriation. A general expropriation act was

one of the campaign promises of the Social Credit party in 1975. Some

seven years have passed since that time and we still haven't seen it. I

would urge the government to start working on that particular piece of

legislation.

The other matter I want to deal with is the

question of value: true value, actual value or replacement value. It's

only fair and fitting that people should be given the replacement value

of their expropriated homes or properties. In other words, the innocent

bystander shouldn't be prejudiced by the powers of the state to take

away their property, without being able to replace that property in

some other location. I suggest that the minister look at

section 4 and

the subsections thereunder to determine whether or not he's talking

about replacement value or actual value so that the expropriation

tribunals will have a guide when they're determining value.

Sections 4 to 14 inclusive approved.

Title approved.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Davidson in the chair.

Bill 51, Urban Transit Authority Amendment Act, 1982, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed.

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Strachan in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF TOURISM

On vote 73: minister's office, $204,003.

HON. MRS. JORDAN:

I thought for a moment the vote was going to go through without any of

the complimentary comments that I expect to receive, as well as fine

suggestions from the hon. members of the opposition, including the

second member for Surrey (Mr. Hall).

In opening these

estimates, I would like to say that I am very pleased and honoured to

take my place in the House for the 1982-83 estimates as government

leader of the third-largest industry of British Columbia. It is a very

exciting industry, one recognized by our government as a key, but in

general a little acknowledged factor in Canada of opportunity and

benefits for all British Columbians. These benefits have the broadest

base and offer the greatest opportunities for each and every person in

our province. These opportunities are more through the industry of

tourism today and in the future than through any other industry. The

benefits range in major economic importance in a number of ways to

assist with the balance of payments, to act as part of the leverage in

international negotiating agreements and to in themselves offer an

opportunity for international agreements. Capital investments and job

opportunities are offering the broadest base for the greatest number of

people in our province, whether they are the skilled, the highly

professional and academic, the inexperienced person in his first job,

or even the handicapped — and for all ages.

We feel that

today offers one of the greatest opportunities for an individual person

or family to own their own business. If they are willing to work, to

plan properly, to learn and exercise responsible and up-to-date

management skills, to offer, of course, quality service and product,

and have a positive and friendly attitude, they can, even today, Mr.

Chairman, in these difficult times, start, purchase and ultimately own

their business, large or small.

The industry is also in a

position to benefit greatly from our program for economic stabilization

and control of escalating government costs. Control of the escalating

costs of governments and economic stabilization means that there will

be opportunities for doing business on a less costly basis in British

Columbia. I might add in all modesty that it is the only tourism

industry in Canada that has had a government take into consideration

the needs and capabilities of the tourist industry when undertaking

overall economic and social planning, and when dealing with the current

inflationary situation, with the currently very devastating high

interest rates, and when dealing with the spiralling costs of

government at all levels — which are being brought under control at our

level. We also have taken the tourist industry in this province into

consideration when government is competing for those dollars that

should be available for the investment level — which is being done so

disastrously at the federal level, but not in British Columbia.

Mr.

Chairman, at a time when we hear futurists saying that tourism will be

the number one industry in the world in the year 2000, and at a time

when we hear many politicians, industry people and media people in the

rest of Canada, North America and in many other parts of the world

really moaning and groaning and talking gloom and doom — talking about

falloff downtrends and being despondent — we in the government of

British Columbia and in the tourism industry, and even most media

people in British Columbia, are

[ Page 8727 ]

very

positive. We are still showing strong evidence of growth. We are

expanding in education and planning. We are expanding in tourism

involvement and concept. We are vigorously marketing. We are

continually innovating with confidence and incredible vigour, not only

for today but for the future.

I'm pleased to draw to the

attention of the House that in 1981 we in British Columbia reached our

five-year target of $2 billion in revenue for the tourism industry in

the province. Over the next five years, with our program of marketing,

government management, philosophy and economic development strategy,

and all coordinated with a vigorous, free-enterprise private sector, we

will, as we are doing now, see British Columbia's tourism grow. I

predict that we will reach the $3.5 billion revenue mark in five years.

However,

I would like to point out that we differ from all other areas of the

world in tourism, in that while we are positive, we also do not talk,

brag or reach hollowly for tourism to be the number one industry on the

basis of figures, as does everyone else. Our Premier, the leader of

this province, has made it very clear that the values, the quality of

life, the investment attitudes, and the benefits of tourism must enrich

and be compatible with the aspirations and lifestyle of our own

citizens. As I've summed it up so many times before with the public,

the cultural people, the recreational people and the industry people,

on the bottom line there always must be a place for you and me as

citizens in British Columbia. We believe the industry's development

must, as one of our objectives, provide more opportunity for our own

citizens, whether it's in cost, variety, jobs or investment. Tourism in

British Columbia must complement the lifestyle of our own citizens,

must add to our citizens' positive experiences and must add to our

environment. We find complete cooperation in this area with the

industry, I'm so pleased to say. We are being remarkably successful in

these objectives in British Columbia, as witness our current advances

in capital investment and in jobs — environmentally, culturally and

socially through tourism. Though the major increase of revenues to the

province — a major dollar contribution to the government's development

of social programs, such as those in Education, Health and Human

Resources — is there, it is not always as evident to the public as

perhaps it should be. But it is certainly very evident in the

objectives of our industry that that must be part of the benefit.

Mr.

Chairman, we are particularly proud that these major opportunities and

benefits are in all parts of this province; certainly they have been in

Vancouver and Victoria, but now they are in all of Vancouver Island,

from Duncan to Tahsis and from Port Hardy to the Charlottes, and in

Stewart, Nelson, the Kootenays, Elkford, Abbotsford, Coquitlam, Gold

River, Prince Rupert, Castlegar, Oliver, Salmon Arm, Armstrong,

Rossland, Trail, Fernie, Vernon, Duncan, Coquitlam, Cowichan, Courtenay

and the Peace River. In short, no community in British Columbia has not

benefited during these last few years from the tourism industry.

Mr. Chairman, this success and this great story did not just happen, just as

success in so many parameters seldom just happens. The scenery and wilderness

— no matter how much we enjoy them — simply are not enough; we have to be able

to have people get to them and enjoy them. They have to know about them and

they have to have the added generators and facilities to meet the very high

visitor expectations that we see in the world today. This unique and dynamic

success in tourism that we're experiencing in British Columbia today — and

I'm sure the hon. member across the way will agree, through you, Mr. Chairman

— is a direct result of the drive, the teamwork, the organization and planning

that has gone on.

Firstly,

investors — provincial, national and even international — have

developed a new attitude toward British Columbia, as a direct result of

this province's government and its economic policies, leadership and

attitude; thus we have seen the confidence needed for the development

we're experiencing now. This has also happened because of the vigour

and the cooperation of the private sector of the tourism industry, of

the ever-increasing quality of our product and the organization, I

would say, and vitality of an independent Tourism ministry playing a

major role. All of these factors, Mr. Chairman, have made it happen.

But

going back to the ministry itself, I would like to assure the hon.

member, my official critic across the hall, that we no longer have the

interminable memos saying: "We must reorganize; we must reorganize; we

must reorganize"; even the "Dear Ernie" letters are slowing down,

because the base of our new ministry is now complete — no more

reorganization, just action.

I would think, Mr. Chairman,

that this is an opportune time to introduce the staff of the ministry,

who are a major part of the new vitality and direction of the

government tourism team: Dr. Jim Rae, our deputy minister; Mr. John

Currie, our assistant deputy minister of operations; and Mr. Plul — out

of his tub — our assistant deputy minister of marketing. Essentially,

the four of us comprise the policy team, but in cooperation with the

directors and full staff of the ministry itself. We are a small but a

very effective ministry, but we feel that each person — be they in the

warehouse or be they an accommodation counsellor, an offshore official,

a secretary or a director — now has input into our policies, along with

the tourism industry and other ministries of the government.

I'm

very proud to say in reviewing the structure that our ministry now has

an effective finance and personnel section, under the direction of Mr.

Bob Saunders, resulting in much more effective budgeting and cost

control. We have developed a vigorous and respected research department

with planning and policy coordination under the most able direction of

Mr. Mick Collins. This vital

section — I know it will interest the

member — is now becoming well integrated with the industry in other

jurisdictions. Recently the research development

section has increased

and is obtaining an accurate and valuable data base, not — I hasten to

assure the House — reinventing the wheel but incorporating much that

was available but not available, if I may put it that way: information

that was perhaps questionable in its base or unusable because it was so

fragmented.

The introduction of computerization and other

modern techniques has greatly improved our manpower utilization in the

industry and our financial efficiency, and will ultimately, I believe,

when the base is complete, see the ministry and the tourism industry of

British Columbia together have one of the most complete and effective

resource centres in the world. It is all available to the private

sector as well as government — but particularly to the private sector,

which could not possibly have such a comprehensive and usable tool on

their own.

In the area of education — a very vital sector in

all industries, but certainly vital in tourism — all of our team are

extremely proud of the major strides we have made toward achieving the

seven educational objectives I outlined to the

[ Page 8728 ]

House

two years ago. Under the spirited and able direction of our new

director, Mr. Rick Lemon, and with the assistance of Miss Dierdre

Lydon, who was with us before, we have moved ahead dramatically, in

concert with the industry, the Ministry of Education and the Ministry

of Labour. We've totally revitalized and expanded our hospitality

program and I'm happy to say we've leapt ahead in hospitality

certificate courses; there'll be up to 60 courses in 1981 and 91

courses in 1982, if not more. We expect that well over 3,000 students

will be participating this year, including, for the first time,

management participation.

We have revitalized and increased

our traveller counsellor technique course and have completed the pilot

project and carried out through the province the first specialized

three-part ski management program. This incorporates both management

and front-line personnel. The program is mobile and, I'm pleased to

say, financially self-supporting. It was designed in cooperation with

the ski industry. Naturally we are happy to say it has been very well

received. In our analysis, it was decided that the ministry should

carry on with the program, because even though it's self-supporting, we

are able to make it more effective and less costly. This program will

continue this year, and until such time as it's assessed as not needed.

It has also been adapted to small business operations for motel, hotel

and restaurant use. We are hopeful that this project will start this

September, again mobile, financially self-supporting and, I hasten to

assure you, not duplicating.

Along with these and other

educational objectives, Dr. George Pedersen, president of Simon Fraser

University, and I had the privilege recently of announcing the uniting

of Simon Fraser University and Tourism British Columbia to develop a

short-term and long-range program for mid- and upper-management tourism

people, leading ultimately both to certification and an academic degree

in tourism.

Today — and I say this to my critic — in

expressing great admiration and respect for Dr. Pedersen and his

faculty, I would also advise the House and industry that our program

will have an industry, education and government advisory board. That

will ensure that these major academic programs have the content,

compatibility, sophistication and credibility to have international

recognition of both the certificate and degree programs, as well — and

ever so importantly — as industry acceptance, so that our graduates

receive recognition by job placement and the continued financing that

will be necessary for permanency.

Our first program, the

foundation completion pilot project, will begin this September under

Simon Fraser University's auspices. It will enrol mid- and

top-management people who wish to broaden their management, marketing

and personnel skills. As an added note, this curriculum is designed so

that it can be transferred to other educational centres such as the

University of Victoria, the University of British Columbia, regional

colleges or the Knowledge Network. It is designed so its content can be

expanded and adjusted. For the first time, people working at all levels

in our industry in tourism in British Columbia can look forward to

advancement opportunities and, should they wish, a real career

opportunity in tourism right in British Columbia. Of course, our own

citizens and the industry will benefit very much from this, as well as

those in the industry.

Our highly successful and modestly

named tourism industry Seminar of the Century of last year has been

followed through with one-day seminars in various regions of the

province, including marketing and market evaluation, tour management,

plant operation and promotional interaction. Along with these firsts in

Canada, we have started a series of one-day tourism seminars, with

municipal and regional district representatives being the first

candidates. We were pleased to have representation from nearly every

municipality and regional district in the province of British Columbia.

It resulted, we feel, in greater municipal or local government

awareness of tourism and its opportunities, advantages and needs, and

perhaps a better understanding or more awareness of the role of various

sectors in the tourism development within the local area, be it the

industry itself, the chamber of commerce, the regional tourist

association, the cultural or recreational groups, or those who would

aspire to the convention business, as well as government itself. We

don't feel that money is necessarily the answer. We do feel that

knowledge at the local level of government is very important.

Judging

by the response to and the follow-through of the seminar, and the fact

that we had such excellent attendance, we judge it as being very

successful. Also, the appointment by most municipalities of an alderman

of tourism with a full information portfolio has started the base for

continuity and knowledge development at the local level of government.

similar well-attended seminar was carried out for our regional

associations, staff and coordinators. This program will continue this

year for the chamber of commerce people. I'm pleased to say that we

have had discussions with the British Columbia Chamber of Commerce, and

we are working together to develop mutually beneficial projects and to

exchange ideas with the regional tourist associations, which can only

augur well for all concerned. We also hope to carry this program to

career-oriented teachers throughout the provinces, the advantages of

which, I think, are self-explanatory.

Through cooperation

with the Ministry of Education, we have made a good start in having

tourism incorporated in the basic school curriculum at the elementary

and high school levels. Education at all levels, and in most aspects of

the industry, is needed for the future. It is the major key to

professionalism and pride throughout the industry: for full career

opportunities for employees in the industry, both front-line and

management; for investment success; for visitor and citizen

satisfaction; and for continuous, development of a tourism industry

which is aware, competitive, successful and ever compatible with our

British Columbia citizens — certainly not just in the short term but in

the long term.

With these programs and many others, I have

no hesitation in saying that British Columbia will be a tourism force

to be reckoned with nationally and internationally — on our terms, with

objectives and benefits prescribed by British Columbia as well as for

our own citizens.

The visitor service, under our new

director Mr. Wayne Carter, with the able help of Miss Gail Carrie, has

been reorganized, computerized, greatly expanded and personalized,

resulting in marked upgrading and outstanding results in visitor and

industry satisfaction.

Our team has accomplished so much in

the past two years that it's impossible to discuss every aspect in this

short time, but I would be guilty of negligence if I did not address a

vital part of our ministry's responsibility — marketing. While I'm sure

I would wish to go into greater detail at the request of the

opposition, as the estimates move along, in order that the House may be

fully informed on this most vital and complex

[ Page 8729 ]

subject,

I would like to say that under the very skilled and imaginative

direction of our assistant deputy minister of marketing we have made

major changes in a number of areas. We have increased cooperation and

input from the regional tourist associations and the involved sectors

of the industry. We have initiated new and greatly expanded,

specialized overall promotions, ranging from diving through winter

recreation to spring and fall expansion and activities. We have greatly

intensified and broadened our marketing approach and strategies. We now

have a fully-developed year-round marketing strategy, which is designed

to meet the specific needs of the citizens of our province and our

industry, as well as husband most carefully those natural resources

that are a vital part of our competitive position in the future.

There's no question that marketing will have a major impact on that

objective.

We must remind ourselves today, as never before,

that tourism is not only showing some sensitivity to the current world

economic situation — less, though, than almost any other industry — but

it is also a highly competitive and complex industry. We can't afford

to sit on our laurels for one single minute. We must expand our

directions, we must increase our credibility, we must increase our

capability, and we must draw from those parts of the world that we wish

to visit. These benefits that are greatest for us in British Columbia

must be part of that major objective. This is done through strategic,

intensive, appropriate and timely marketing.

I would like to

draw to the attention of the House that the tourism industry in British

Columbia is very much a free enterprise industry. It has a very healthy

spread of small business, ranging from the small kiosk or the European

sausage pushcart through to the gift shop.... It has bicycle rentals,

horse-drawn carriages, vintage transportation and many new regional

transportation companies for sightseeing or freight. There are more

traditional concepts of the tourist industry — hotels, motels, eating

establishments, sophisticated and atmospheric dining experience,

fast-food outlets — than ever before. As of this year more than 10,000

individual businesses and 70,000 individual employees are directly

involved in tourism. This does not include the thousands of businesses

and jobs that partially rely on the tourist industry as an important

factor in the profitability of their business and investment, and in

the creation and security of jobs. This has been made very obvious this

year when business after business, community after community, from tire

shops to clothing stores, banks to repair shops and TV outlets, from

Port Alberni to the Kootenays, from Prince Rupert to Osoyoos, are

acknowledging to themselves and publicly in such terms as: "If it

weren't for the tourist industry...." or "We're counting on the tourist

industry...." Even some of the traditional hotels and restaurants are

saying more and more that the tourist industry must help pick up the

business industry slack. The tourism industry is being acknowledged by

all to be a major aid in our economy and job creation this year and for

the future.

There is even more tangible evidence than their

ledgers and public statements, through our incredibly successful Good

Show program. Through that program we are gathering significant

evidence by the spread of the nomination awards, be they from dentists,

nurses, doctors, retail employees, media people, sports people, from

bakers to truck loggers, cultural interest people, none of whom, before

our government's aggressive education involvement and Good Show

program, were conscious of their opportunities to contribute and

benefit from our new style and objectives of tourism. Approximately 98

percent of these free enterprise businesses are individually British

Columbia–owned. I would suggest that less than 2 percent would be what

we might call designated chains or major corporate ownership; and they,

too, in part, are British Columbia–owned. It is a competitive,

imaginative, hardworking industry which is contributing much to British

Columbia and basically doing very well on its own.

These are

just some of the points of the major part of this ministry's mandate,

to work as a stimulant, a catalyst, a resource centre, an instrument

for responsible achievement, an umbrella promoter of British Columbia,

and to undertake all of these functions in conjunction with the great

industry itself, and the great assets of our province, whether it's our

climate, our natural assets such as the water and the mountains, our

openness, the cultural mosaic of our province, the recreational

talents, or just the individual personality and friendliness of our

citizens — a team of which Tourism British Columbia, I, as minister,

and our government are very pleased to be part, all with the objective

of providing the necessary revenues for our province and its social

accomplishments, and for benefits for our citizens, as I mentioned,

very much in keeping with our own cultural desires and social as well

as economic aspirations.

I'm sure there are other questions

that will arise, and I look forward to hearing the comments, plans and

development suggestions from the opposition.

MR. HALL:

I could find little to disagree with in the minister's remarks made to

the committee. Certainly the aims and objectives that she has outlined

for us are shared by everybody who has examined this industry in any

detail whatsoever. Even excusing the minister — as we must do, for this

is an important day when one's estimates come up — for some hyperbole,

we would all agree with her and wish her well in supervising the

government's activities in what is currently the third-largest industry

in British Columbia, but likely to be this year better than third —

sadly, in some ways, better than third because of our economic

misfortunes in our natural resource industries. The state of

metalliferous and non-metalliferous mining and of our forest industry

may well mean that this minister is supervising the biggest ministry of

a provincial effort this year. It's a very important portfolio that she

has, and one which we must all do our level best to encourage and to

support.

Having said that, I feel it incumbent upon me to

suggest to the minister that one of the ways of supporting it is not

simply to supervise it — to be the figurehead — but to actively engage,

as I know she can do, in reacting to the crisis and meeting the

problems head on and not to be reluctant at all to meet with people and

not to be reluctant at all — I can t imagine why she should be — to

share time with anybody representing the industry in any way, shape or

form, and if necessary to give them a piece of her mind and her

opinions. I don't say that to the minister in any critical way, but in

a kindly way. I think she can engender some enthusiasm on behalf of her

own ministry. I have some disagreements with the minister. I think we

all have. I think she's far too sensitive at times about certain

aspects of her ministry, but we'll deal with that as we go along.

Let me say by way of introduction that by coincidence I have just received a letter from the Community Business and

[ Page 8730 ]

Professional

Association of Canada, Victoria Drive, Vancouver. They talk about a

provincial program of upgrading tourist facilities, and they say:

"It's

the only industry in B.C. that is safe and has a predictable future.

With today's dollar on the way to 65 cents" — I think this writer is

perhaps a little pessimistic, but who knows — "this can only make this

province more attractive to outsiders. The people who made the Royal Hudson, the Marguerite and Whistler cannot be effectively criticized. A second Victoria-to-Vancouver Marguerite tour vessel? Another Royal Hudson to Revelstoke? Every ski resort and every fishing paradise guaranteed a survival cushion from this government.

"The

wood and coal, when it's gone, leaves a nasty hole. Our fishing fleet

is finished, but instead of draggers vacuuming everything, we could

convert some of the smaller boats to a subsidized tourist charter

fleet. World fishermen pay over $500 per fish, and they leave telling

everyone how wonderful it was."

I don't

agree with some of the things in this letter, but here's somebody who

is conscientiously looking toward this industry as one of the major

ways in which we can meet the current economic downturn. It's an

interesting proposal from this Community Business and Professional

Association. I received it just today as the Tourism estimates came

forward. What we must begin with is a general review of the estimates.

We only have three votes in front of us. That's by kindness of the

Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Curtis), who's slowly but surely reducing

the number of times we can get up and talk in the House. Eventually

we'll just have vote 1, which is our wages, and Crown corporations. The

Minister of Finance is exasperated with me as he leaves the House. If

the number of votes is to be reduced, and that may well be, then the

details within those votes must be expanded. This is one of the

problems. When I was last responsible for these estimates there were

six votes, an exact doubling of the number of votes in front of us now.

But there was far more detail in each vote, so some comparisons now are

that much harder to get.

In the general review of these

estimates with only three votes there appears to have been some

restraint placed on the minister here. The government is naturally

taking credit. When the Minister of Finance outlined his budget on

April 5, he said that he kept the totals down to within certain

percentage figures. He showed the totals, and so on. Certainly if you

examine this year's total in this ministry, we are talking about an

apparent reduction from $14.78 million to $13.68 million. In this time

of belt tightening, it would appear that the minister has done a good

job.

But the fact of the matter is that when you look at it,

that's not what has happened at all. I don't know whether the minister

is juggling over there, or whether it's the Minister of Finance. That

$2.3 million of an artificial reduction has been achieved by netting

out the Beautiful B.C.

magazine operation. Last year that particular budget item showed

approximately $3 million in our estimates. This year it's netted out at

$645,000. So you get, in effect, a smaller expenditure total.

Naturally, of course, you have shown something on the other side of the

ledger. But when you look at the expenditure item, you have this

artificial reduction. The total, if we compared like with like, would

have been $15.9 million or $16 million as opposed to $14.78 million

last year. That's not quite the restraint one was led to believe if you

listened to the Minister of Finance on April 5.

The

information we were given was not quite correct. We've got this

differing form of bookkeeping on the right-hand side of the ledger,

compared to that which we are examining on the left-hand side. I don't

hold the minister responsible for that; I just want to tell her that

it's not gone unnoticed, that she really is supervising a slight

increase in her budget.

Talking of information, we notice

also that there is a threefold increase in information services, not

necessarily just about tourism, but about the ministry. That may be

required. However, it's not apparent that it is about programs; it

appears to be about the ministry itself. Ministry newsletters, ministry

speeches, ministry reports, etc. — a threefold increase in that, on top

of an advertising increase of three-quarters of a million dollars. That

does appear to be somewhat rich, and again does not quite show the

restraint we were talking about before.

That's a general

review of the estimates in terms of the dollars and cents. Turning now

to the specifics of her administration — and I haven't left the general

subject of tourism; I'll return to that — in January of this year we

had the example which we raised in question period about staff. I want

to deal with this very quickly and get it out of the way. We had the

advertisement for the information officer, which the minister advised

the House was withdrawn. How is the minister doing for staff, firstly

in her own executive suite? In April, I believe, two key people left —

Mr. Dykes and Miss Francine Mailbot — and there now are seven people

including yourself in the executive suite. I wonder if you could list

those for us in your response. Returning to the question of the

information officer and now making it plural, could you tell us how

many information officers there are and in which of the various

services — namely the operation services, marketing services, etc. —

the information officers are housed, or are paid and watered, as it

were.

In May the minister issued an excellent publication

entitled "Travel Guide for the Disabled." I want to congratulate the

minister for that. She issued a press release on May 20. These dates on

the top right-hand corner.... I don't understand a four-figure date —

16-20-05-82. There must be a code there somewhere. I thought there was

only a day, a month and a year. You've got an extra set of figures in

there somewhere. I presume it's May 20, but it may be the sixteenth

press release you put out that day. Thereby hangs a tale. Anyway, you

put out this press release, and I was particularly pleased with the

"Travel Guide for the Disabled." It was timely, and followed up from

last year's efforts. I took the opportunity to send it to the disabled

group in Surrey–White Rock, called the Surrey Access For All Committee,

who've now sent me a note. I have not had an opportunity to speak to

you about this, as the note only came last week when I was in the

middle of the public accounts conference. They've sent me a 20- or

30-point analysis of it, and asked if they can meet with you or your

staff and go over this travel guide, as they feel very encouraged by

its publication and feel that it could be even better. So again I

congratulate the ministry on that and point out that it does, however,

need some fine-tuning.

[Mr. Davidson in the chair.]

[ Page 8731 ]

My own district of Surrey–White Rock was recently visited by the Royal Hudson, about which I know a little, having been the minister at the time when the Royal Hudson

started off. I did make the suggestion to the minister that maybe White

Rock could be considered as the next point of destination of that

locomotive at some time when we either get another one or need a change

of service. The minister was good enough to respond to me that they're

going to have a look at that. Is there any updating on that interesting

proposal regarding putting the Royal Hudson

on the tracks to White Rock? I'm not too sure whether the minister has

been as far as White Rock on the locomotive. It has been down there

twice. I know she wasn't on it the day that White Rock was 25 years

old, but I think she might have been on it earlier when it went to

Seattle. That would be an interesting tourist promotion.

I've

got two complaints about literature. A large company in Vancouver

called Grantree wants travel literature to give to their customers in a

welcoming package. They haven't gotten anywhere with requests to your

ministry. Is there any reason why, when the cost of printing is really

the cost of the first one...? Anybody in politics knows that the cost

of an election leaflet is really the cost of the first one; the cost of

the ten thousandth one is minimal compared to the cost of the first

produced. Considering that we do such a lot of advertising, why was the

ministry reluctant to provide a company that's dealing with 20,000 new

residents per year with material that would be useful for newcomers to

the province? This particular company has had responses from junior

personnel in Tourism B.C., but apparently not from anybody at a high

level in the ministry.

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

Similarly,

you had a letter from a family who were going to visit Vancouver

Island. They wrote to 800 Robson Street requesting a map of Vancouver

Island, ferry schedules, fees, accommodation guide, a list of Vancouver

Island tourist attractions and a list of summer events on Vancouver

Island, and gave information about themselves: a family of four, etc.

They received back a ferry schedule, the B.C. Accommodation Guide, a

greater Vancouver map and a list of attractions in greater Vancouver.

That is probably what is euphemistically called a clerical error. It

seems to me that's one of the most important things we do. Is there a

better way to handle that and check responses, other than having the

same person who looks after the letter look after the collection of the

material? I've found in my experience in industry that if the filling

of the order is done by the same person who answers the letter, the

same mistake is continued. But if the job is split into two — I don't

mean make-work, but a different system to handle it — the mistakes are

often caught.

A question about the minister's own

responsibilities. We constantly get news releases from the government

of Canada and the province of British Columbia about TIDSA; but I never

see the minister involved in this important work. On the one occasion

when the Minister of Industry and Small Business Development (Hon. Mr.

Phillips) was not there, the Minister of Environment (Hon. Mr. Rogers)

was present; on another occasion it was the Minister of Agriculture

(Hon. Mr. Hewitt). Could the minister explain why you're not putting

the full force of your ministry into this general discussion on the

subsidiary agreement? That's a genuine request for information.

couple of questions about staff and operations services. I think you

gave me the name of a Mr. McFarlane in policy development and planning.

I wonder if you would explain who the four staff members are in policy

development and planning. I have their salary breakdown. Could you

confirm that this is where the research goes on?

The work

started by my deputy, who continued as deputy for the first member for

Vancouver–Little Mountain when she became minister, impressed upon all

of us the need for research. During 1972-75, at least six major pieces

of research were done, the beginnings of a research department, and a

young man by the name of Hall employed — no relative, I hasten to add.

I understand he is no longer with the ministry, but I don't really know

if he is or not. I don't think he is. From those early beginnings and

the outside research jobs that were done by Rex Werts and others, there

have obviously come the strategies that you referred to in your opening

remarks. Could you satisfy me that this is where the work is going on

in vote 74, the operations services vote, and in policy development and

planning? Who is in charge of it?

Turning back to the more

general, as I said in my opening remarks in supporting your general

attitude and statement, the recent study for Canada indicates that

tourism is responsible for 10 percent of the labour force in Canada.

That is a million jobs, of which we will get more than our fair share

because we have more than our fair share of natural and, hopefully,

man-made beauties.

That sort of puts tourism into

perspective as far as this province is concerned. That study by

Laventhol and Horwath, which monitored the lodging and food service

industry in North America, showed that continues as a major force in

Canada's economy in 1981. We have your figures for 1981, as produced in

your speeches and press releases. Preliminary estimates indicate what

is happening in Canada, and the figures are here.

We had

your figures at the close of 1981, and your New Year's message

indicated more of the same, which I thought was a little optimistic. I

thought perhaps you had cracked your Perrier water 12 hours too soon.

Frankly, all of us were quietly hoping that the clouds on the horizon

were not really forming up and that they wouldn't arrive. Of course,

now we all know that they have arrived, although not necessarily yet in

tourism. That's the question I'm going to ask you. Certainly everywhere

else they appear to be not only on the horizon but almost down our

throats, and now they may have arrived in tourism.

First of

all, how are the figures that you were forecasting on New Year's Eve or

New Year's Day holding up? How do last year's averages...? In the

ministry's report, which you broke down for us, how much was spent on

transportation? How much was spent on restaurants and food outlets? How

much was spent on accommodation? How is that holding up to date? In

March, May and now in July we appear to have a bad case of space, as

the Province says, and the

tourist industry is bracing for a drop in some hotel accommodation

space. How are we holding up? Are the predictions holding up? What are

the real facts? Perhaps more importantly, how are you and how is your

ministry reacting to it? Are you wedded to an immutable fixed-in-space

advertising program that you can't change, or can you responsibly react

with some elasticity, some alertness and some brightness? Can you react

into a market or away from a market? If there is any softness at all,

can you get into that kind of situation now before too much more time

has gone?

[ Page 8732 ]

I think that really sums up....

Interjection.

MR. HALL:

You've not been here all morning; just listen and you'll learn

something. You represent a riding that's absolutely dependent on

tourism.

Lastly, and then I'll let the minister have a

chance to respond, coming as I do many years ago from a country where

bed and breakfast was a way of life in the summer when you went on

holiday, I wonder if the minister can tell me if she's.... I don't

think I can ask if she's encouraging other cabinet ministers to take

action, but certainly there appear to be some problems with the selling

of the catalogues, the promotion of the whole bed-and-breakfast

proposal. I know, for instance, that the very fine booklet that some

bed-and-breakfast people put out is not sold on the ferries. I don't

know why. It's a first-class publication, better than many on the

ferries, and I wonder if you could perhaps just skirt around that

problem without necessarily offending the rules of the House.

HON. MRS. JORDAN:

I couldn't help but respond to your comments by also thanking you, as a

member of this House, for many of the very helpful suggestions that you

have given our industry, our ministry and me during this past two

years. You did mention the handicapped travel directory of which we

are, I believe, rightly proud, but which benefited very much from your

direct scrutiny of our questionnaire and input, and we appreciate that.

Just

to answer your question in that area, I'd be very pleased to meet with

the people you suggest if you could give me their names, and we'll work

out a mutually convenient time for everyone concerned, yourself as well

if you would wish to come. As you know, it was a first in Canada. It is

a start. I believe the general reaction on the whole is that it was a

very good start, but we are ever mindful of and appreciate your

suggestion that we must monitor things very carefully and be prepared

to upgrade. I give you my assurance on that.

Going back to the budget, perhaps I could answer your questions very briefly by suggesting that Beautiful British Columbia

magazine is a new edition in its present form. I'm quite pleased about

that, as minister. I feel that it will help us keep up the standard of

the magazine. As you know, it has been greatly revitalized. From the

reaction we're getting for the better, it is also one of the few lure

pieces anywhere in the world.... It is a very effective invitation to

over 4,000 people from all parts of the world; it has gained a

reputation of its own as a print piece as well as being basically

self-supporting financially, and yet still very competitive. We think

by having it opened for your scrutiny you'll have a better idea what

we're doing with it in the financial area as well as in the content. I

hope the adjustments and revitalization of the magazine meet with your

approval.

In terms of our budget, when we have the British

Columbia Buildings Corporation's adjustments, we have a lift of

approximately 8 percent in our actual spending capability over next

year. We feel that we've exercised many cost efficiencies, as I

mentioned in my opening remarks, through the reorganization of the

ministry and, I think it very fair to say, through the very capable

people we have been able to attract to the ministry. We are an

extremely small ministry, and in overall staff you'll notice our number

has not increased significantly at all. For a while we did have, in

reorganizing the ministry, the opportunity to have people move on to

positions that were more suitable and that offered them a greater

career opportunity, as well as to see advancement in the ministry,

where the capability was, and to have new people join us. Again I would

have to say how pleased we are with the dedication and the talents that

these new people have brought to the ministry, along with that of our

existing staff, and the fact that many people who have moved ahead have

proved to be a very valuable asset to the ministry.

We gauge

our dollar value on the effectiveness of the job we're doing, and I

appreciate your comments about the cost efficiencies that we are trying

to exercise. In many areas in the reorganization we were able to get

much better value for the dollar and to be much more effective.

the print area, to which you referred, we have increased our

production; we also have reorganized that, and we've reorganized our

lure pieces. We have another all-encompassing piece — I think we have a

copy here; I believe the member has one — called The Traveler's Handbook,

which we feel may be a more effective lure piece. It may be more

convenient to handle and has the opportunity of providing us with even

greater exposure, but with less costs for mailing.

In terms

of the concern you have from the individual that didn't receive the

service they should have from our information centre, I would hope that

we could follow that through. Generally that has been made much more

efficient through some computerization and a more efficient system. Mr.

Plul, our assistant deputy minister, has just returned from a marketing

promotion as well as an assessment of the whole west coast, and was

very pleased to bring back to us the information that our reputation is

very strong in many parts of North America as for our prompt replies.

But that doesn't mean to say that we can't improve and that we may not

have specific instances, and if the member could share that with me

later on a confidential basis, we also have a system of follow-through

which I think will answer your needs as well as that person's need.

Regarding

the information people, there must be an understanding. We only have

three in that area; that is traditional for the ministry. There are

other names which fall into that classification within the budget but

they have many other duties. In our information centre we have Mr.

Pires, Miss Coull and Mr. McGill from Beautiful British Columbia

magazine; they are responsible for brochures, handbooks, background

information, tourist articles for publication and travel tips. They

oversee all printed material and are responsible for press releases.

Regarding the Royal Hudson

and the very helpful suggestions from the member — both in writing,

which I appreciated, as well as in discussion this morning — we are

very proud of the Royal Hudson.

It is used very much as a lure piece to the province; it's a saleable

commodity, in a sense. We have worked very hard in the village of

Squamish to encourage them, and we have been pleased with their

response. If you've been on the trip, you may know that they've greatly

revitalized their community and the activities and services offered

people during the hour-and-a-half layover.

Regarding the

expansion to White Rock, I wasn't on the trip mentioned by the member;

I understand he was a great public relations person for Tourism, along

with our own member, and we appreciate it. We are exploring the

feasibility of it. At this time of fiscal restraint, I suspect that

there might be some problems. But we are looking at the potential

[ Page 8733 ]

market,

the economic implications of such an action in terms of cost and return

— tangible evidence of marketing opportunities that would have a

spinoff effect.

The Grantree situation. Mr. Member, as I

understand it, this is a training company. They only train travel

counsellors. It has been the policy to distribute through organized

outlets, not through other areas. Also, they would be in competition

with the chamber of commerce. I believe we responded to them — I don't

have the letter here — outlining this to them.

TIDSA, as you

know, Mr. Member, has done many good things for British Columbia. I

think it has, by and large, been a very sound investment of taxpayers'

dollars. I know the member knows the spinoff effect as well as I do,

both in marketing capability and plant.

Believe it or not,

I'm not always, even with my size and high profile in this ministry, as

visible as some people would like to see. We are as a ministry, and I

am as a minister, very much involved in policy decisions relating to

federal agreements. You can be assured that any opportunities to relate

to other governments which are of benefit to British Columbia and have

been carefully examined will be followed through on.

We do

have sound representation on the TIDSA management committee. Mr. Currie

sits there, as well as Mr. White. It plugs into Mr. Collins and the

policy development

section of our ministry. We are able to more

effectively respond to the objectives of TIDSA, but apply those more

effectively to the needs of our industry in British Columbia. It has

also enabled us to offer more personal advice and have more personal

discussions with people who applied to TIDSA and might not have been

successful, but in fact had a good operation that needed to be scaled

down and be more effectively designed in terms of its economic reality.

I hope you'll be pleased to learn that that whole area has been

strengthened.

In policy development we have a total of four

people. Mr. Collins, the director and a very highly qualified

gentleman, comes to us through other governments — Parks Canada — and

he was on the Okanagan Basin study and has worked in parks in British

Columbia. He has a very broad base. He is also very knowledgeable in

the computer and statistics area. Mr. Doug White is with us. He was

moved up to that position. Mrs. Thomas and a secretary are also with

us. Their duties are very widespread. They are not only involved in

working more closely with TIDSA and studying the development of tourism

in British Columbia, but they're also very much a part of the gathering

of a very sound data base for negotiations with the federal government,

to see if we can develop in Canada a traditional base that's accepted

by all. They do TIDSA background research, research in terms of the

industry. They have a lot of discussions — on behalf of the rest of us

or in conjunction with the rest of us — with the private sector.

Certainly this new development in the ministry is showing its

importance by the response of the industry to use it.

also liaise with the federal government CGOT, with major airlines and

industries in other parts of the world, so that we'll be able to

develop a much stronger data base, whether it be in the trade and

convention area for communities, whether it's in tourism, airlines and

some of the major thrusts that we have to develop in British Columbia.

I assure the member that there is very little think-tanking in an outer

cosmos going on there; it's all very practical.

We also are

looking at many of the advances in technology. I'm sure the House is

aware that there is a proliferation of possible technological

advantages for us from the use in information centres. My concern has

been not to see us, as a government, involved in the first reaction.

We're trying to assess what is available — and this is with the

industry — and how effective they can be. What type of negotiations do

we ultimately go into with industry so that you won't find a region

undertaking a system that's not compatible with anyone else or which,

in fact, is not capable of being upgraded at minimum cost? So when we

move, which I imagine will be very shortly, to the audiovisual benefits

— whether it's on the ferries or in the information centres — that can

be available to enhance the visitor's opportunities for visit

information as well as our promotional aspects at all levels, we'll be

in concert, we will be cost-effective and we will have a guarantee that

upgrading can take place with minimum cost.

Mr. Hall left

the ministry before I became minister and is acting as a private

consultant. I believe he has had some contracts from TIDSA. I must

correct myself, Mr. Member; Grantree, I understand, is a furniture

company, not a training company.

MR. HALL: Trading.

HON. MRS. JORDAN:

Yes. In order to dispense the very costly information that comes from

the ministry, we've tried to stay with trained staff and trained

outlets, even our liquor stores and drugstores. Many people would like

to dispense the information, but we don't feel that the proper

background, explanation and sales package goes with it; so we try to

work with the associations and the appropriate people.

Bed

and breakfast. I think this is going to open a very long dialogue that

we don't have time for this morning. It has been very successful, as

you said, in many countries, and is very successful in some parts of

eastern Canada. I think it's very much a reflection of the character of

those areas. There is some developing in British Columbia. They're of a

very high quality. We do have our family farm program, which our

ministry will be assuming in cooperation with Agriculture very shortly.

One

of the problems is the bylaws and standards in British Columbia in

terms of health, facilities and fire safety. They are such that they

could make bed and breakfast very costly, so it would perhaps only be

competitive on the basis of the unique experience that it could offer.

This is being looked at now by a number of communities and sectors to

see what might be brought into position. The other

part is the cost of

inspecting and maintaining the standards of a major bed-and-breakfast

program if it did come into force. This could be far more costly than

the actual benefits from the program.

We are watching very

carefully. We're trying to offer what assistance we can. But we're

letting the marketplace have free flow, as I think we should, to see

what emerges. I believe it's fair to say, and I think the member would

agree with me from the minister's point of view: if it emerges in

British Columbia it will probably be most successful in its unique

opportunities. We want to be careful that there's every opportunity for

people of all economic spheres to enjoy a vacation in British Columbia.

But we must also remember that our competitiveness for the future will

require a lot of credibility.

As the member knows, many

countries have very stringent regulations. In Germany, for example, if

a tour operator sells a tour package, if the facilities and the

experience are not up to par, then that tour operator not only pays a

massive fine

[ Page 8734 ]

but

is subject to going to jail. For our future successes, which are

compatible with the lifestyle of our citizens, it's very important that

that standard be maintained.

Optimism in the industry. I

guess in my lifetime I've been faulted for being optimistic, but I

still do feel very optimistic. I think one of the things we're seeing —

we're trying to monitor it now — is, as you'll notice from the latest

"Industrial and Commercial Expansion in B.C." publication from the

Ministry of Industry and Small Business Development, there has been a

major increase in restaurants and accommodation in British Columbia. We

have to examine whether that's having a levelling effect which is

exceeding the increased market.

One of the other factors is

that some of our major operations have probably been channelling their

interest in business and marketing into exclusive areas like business

travel. Of course, those are often the higher-priced hotels. We are

seeing them having some impact — naturally, as they would — from

business travel. The corporations themselves are restricting expense

accounts and travel just as, I suppose, everyone else is. What I've

been trying to do is encourage them to broaden their base. We really

shouldn't confuse a limited market approach and probably far too narrow

base for today's world with the tourism industry itself, and many of

those operations are now calling on tourism per se as part of their

buffer. We hope that that response is there. We feel it will be.

It's

very difficult to really assess what's happening. If one talks in the

Okanagan, they're talking about a major increase. Three months ago they

said that their units were 40 percent booked for the summer at that

time, which was unheard of. The Kootenays appear to be having a very up

year. There are other areas of the province that are the same, and then

you find one or two units that are down.

In Victoria there

are some people saying they're down, but as you know, there's a major

increase in rooms here. I've talked to a number of restaurants and they

have told me that some are up about 4 to 5 percent at this time in

volume of business, not dollars. So it's a very interesting situation,

and I don't really feel I can give you a full picture at this time,

although our reading would show that our Japanese market, which is very

much a cultivated marketed area, is holding extremely well, if not

increasing.

The European market has responded very well to

our trade promotion and follow-up and is increasing. The American

market is hard to define at the moment. What we are seeing is that

those regions who are really doing their homework and putting together

excellent presentations and full strategy, as we are doing as a

province now, are showing great increases. I would cite the Kootenays

as one of those. Also, their plant and experience package is very good

and we have to recognize that the visitor today is wasting that package

and experience.

I don't want to delay the member, but I also

want to answer his questions fully. If I haven't answered anything,

perhaps the member would bring it to my attention.

MR. HALL:

The minister has answered all my questions, save the one about her own

staff, and she can file that with me anytime at all. I thank the

minister for the full answers, and I think I can ask the subsidiary

questions under the various subsidiary votes, although I know there are

only two of them.

Vote 73 approved.

On vote 74: operations services, $5,269,233.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if this is a good time for us to adjourn.

HON. MR. McCLELLAND: No.

MS. BROWN: You don't want to move the committee rise, is that it?

HON. MR. WATERLAND: We've got work to do.

HON. MRS. JORDAN: If the member is to continue, I'll try and be as brief as possible in my answers.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If the member wishes to make a motion, the committee will hear it, but the motion would have to be made.

MS. BROWN: I move that the committee rise, report resolution and ask leave to sit again.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

The committee, having reported a resolution, was granted leave to sit again.

Hon. Mr. McClelland moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 11:57 a.m.

[ Page

8735 ]

Appendix

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

52 Ms. Brown asked the Hon. the Minister of Human Resources the following questions:

Re: Day Care—

1. How many persons received a subsidy from the Government?

2. What is the average amount of the subsidy paid each month?

What are the numbers, by month, for 1980, 1981 and to date in 1982 for

(

a) licensed family day care, (

b) unlicensed family day care, (

c) group

day care (

d) in-home day care, (

e) nursery school day care, (

f) out-of-school day care and (

g) special needs day care?

The

Hon. the Minister of Human Resources stated that, in her opinion, the

reply should be in the form of a Return and that she had no objection

to laying such Return upon the table of the House, and thereupon

presented such Return.

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