MG-8048 Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Speaker VOL. XLII No. 36A -1:30 p.m., MONDAY, APRIL 5,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARS TAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERK ACH, Leonard, Hon. DEW AR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ER NST, Jim , Hon. EVANS ,C iif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLE SH AMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNE SS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLIS TER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl RE IMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. ST ORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere �mbina Portage Ia Prairie Emer son Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Moun tain Broadway Kirkfield Park Rin Ron La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

1415 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, AprilS, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Mike Smud, Iris Smud, Willi am Smud and oth er s reques ting the government of Manitoba consider reviewing the state of Highway 391 with a view towards improving the condition and safety of the road . *** Mr.Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Pierre Chenier, James Russell, Connie Bauer and others requesting the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Praznik) consider holding public hearings on wide-open Su nday shopping throughout Manitoba before March 31, 1993, and press the Attorney General (Mr. McCrae) to uphold the current law concerning Sunday shopping until public hearings are held and the Legislature approves the changes to the law. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Stori e). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHER EAS the pro vincial government has without notice or legal approval allowed wide-open Sunday shopping ; and WHERE AS the provincial government has not consu lted Mani tobans before impl ementing wide-open Sunday shopping; and WHERE AS the provincial gove rnment has not held pub lic hearings on wide-open Su nday shopping; WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Labour to consider holding public hearings on wide-open Sunday shopping throughout Manitoba before March 31, 1993; BE IT FURTHER resolved that the Legislative Assembly be pleased to request the Attorney General to uphold the current law concerning Sunday shopping until public hearings are held and the Legislature approves changes to the law. *** Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Plohman). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? (agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS the Un ited Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and WHER EAS the provincial government has totally discon tinued funding to all friendship centres; and WHERE AS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and WHERE AS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as: assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth program ming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cul tural program ming, housing relocation, fine options, counse lling, court assistance, advoca cy; WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. * * * Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Wowch uk). It complies with the privileges and the prac tices of the House

1416 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the provi nce of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS the provincial government has without notice or legal approval allowed wide-open Su nday shopping; and WHERE AS the provincial government has not consu lted Mani tobans before implem enting wide-open Sunday shopping; and WHERE AS the provincial government has not held public hearings on wide-open Su nday shopping; WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request thtt Minister of Labour to consider holding public hearings on wide open Su nday shopping throughout Manitoba before March 31, 1993; BE IT FURTHER resolved that the Legislative Assembly be pleased to request the Attorney General to uphold the cu rrent law concerning Su nday shopping until public hearings are held and the Legislature approves changes to the law. *** Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Barrett). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the provi nce of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS there have been substantial cuts to materials in the Great Library; and WHERE AS more cuts to materials are planned; and WHERE AS the Department of Justice plans to lay off three staff members of the Great Library at the end of March 1993; and WHERE AS such cuts to staffing will reduce the level of service and the hours of operati on ; WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Justice (Mr.

McCrae) to consider adequate funding for the Great Library so that it can maintain its current level of services, hours of operation, and preserve its cur rent collection of materials. *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honour able member (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHEREA S the Un ited Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and

WHEREAS the provi ncial government has tot ally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and WHERE AS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and WHE RE AS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as: assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth program ming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, educa tion , recreation and cu ltural progr amming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advoca cy; WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. *

(1335) TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a communique from the Energy and Mines ministers' meeting held last week at the prospectors' and developers' meeting, a communique of all the stakeholders involved in the Whitehorse Mining Initiative. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 25-The Public Schools Amendment Act

(4) Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resou rces (Mr. Enns) , that Bill 25, The Public Schools Amendment Act (4); Loi no 4 modifiant Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques, be

April 5, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 17 introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 24-The Taxicab Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of High ways and Transportation): I move, seconded by the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), that Bill24, The Taxicab Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les taxis et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 23-The Retail Businesses Holiday Closing Amendment, Employment Standards Amendment and Payment of Wages Amendment Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), that Bill 23, The Retail Businesses Holida y Closing Amendment, Employment Standards Amendment and Payment of Wages Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les jours feries dans le commerce de detail, Ia

Loi sur les normes d'emploi et Ia

Loi sur le paiement des salaires), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Student Social Allowance Program Impact Study Tabling Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. In 1988 the Premier spoke in this House about the tragedy of a person lacking the skills necessary to compete in today's dynamic marketplace. The Premier, of course, was talking about education and training.

The Premier has continued that theme in words, if not in deeds, through to the Speech from the Throne this year, where he clearly states that education and training is the key to unlock opportunities for people in Manitoba and for businesses in Manitoba, yet we see the government going in a totally opposite direction in terms of students on social assistance, to get the skills and education necessary to ultimately go back to the workplace and get jobs and careers and maintain residences and families in the province of Manitoba.

I would like the Premier to table any study he has indicating the long-term cost benefit to the Province of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba, of the change they have made on student social allowance, and the impact study in terms of employability between those people who get the training under social allowance today as opposed to the training cut that they have proposed in their Family Services budget and their budget, ultimately, tomorrow. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the program that the member opposite is speaking of is a program that is not provided by any other provincial government in Canada.

It is a program that is there as an extra over and above opportunities that people have. I found it interesting that the Leader of the Opposition's colleague the member for Kildonan said, heaven forbid, these people may have to live at home instead of being on welfare in order to go to school. Point of Order Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, would hope the Premier would have better research to know that no such comment was made by the member for Kildonan. If the Premier is going to make shots like that from the House, he should have the dignity to confirm them before he does so. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** *

(1340) Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw that categorically. The fact of the matter is that it was the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) who made that statement-the other colleague. Wrong New Democrat but same philosophy. The fact of the matter is that in other provinces, in times when this program was not available in Manitoba, people did have to rely on families. People did have to rely on part-time work and other commitments and not just welfare. The fact of the matter is, if New Democrats want to promote welfare and want to make people dependent-we do not

141 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 want people to be dependent. We want them to be independent. The education that they will pursue can be pursued if they make other arrangements vis-a-vis their living expenses. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the only one increasing welfare in this province is this Premier and his policies. Honestly, it is not all the fault of this government. There is a dynamic across Canada, but your decision s today will increase social allowance and social allowance costs in the future. It is clear, because the Premier could not table any studies today, that he will not do it.

It is just ideological decisions and, quite frankly, petty and unwise decisions. Main Street Project Funding Red1.1ctlon Impact Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): A further question to the Premier on long-term costs versus short-term savings. The government has announced a 10 percent cut in the money going to a number of social agencies, including the Main Street Project, Mr. Speaker.

We are informed that the Main Street Project cut of 1 0 percent will mean that people now in detox centres, 80 percent of the people in detox centres for six months, will no longer have availability of that facility, which will mean that those people will go to the AFM, which has been cut, and they will end up in hospitals or potentially in more severe restrictions, in our prison system.

I would like to ask the Premier: How cost beneficial is the decision of the government to cut back 1 0 percent to the Main Street Project, and what will be the long-term impact on people ending up in hospitals and higher-cost institutions, let alone not getting the recovery and the treatment programs to get back on their feet? Hon. Gary Almon {Premier): In response to the postamble of the Leader of the Opposition, if it is an ideological decision, why is it that New Democrats and Liberals in office in nine other provinces are not providing the same programming, Mr. Spea••er?

Why have they made exactly the same analy�;is? They do not provide this kind of support for studEtnts on welfare. With respect to the second part of his question, that is under the Minister of Family Services fMr. Gilleshammer). I will let him answer the specifics of that. Children's Dental Program Funding Reduction Impact Mr.

Gary Doer {Leader of the OpposHion): The Premier may be able to change Sunday shopping laws, he may be able to change this law, he may be able to rip up this agreement with the Sports Federation, but he is not yet the Speaker in this House to refer questions back and forth the way he cavalierly does in this Chamber. A final question to the Premier.

Since he did not give us the study on the long-term impact on social allowance cutbacks and he did not answer the question on the long-term impacts, the Premier will be the one hopefully co-ordinating between the Department of Family Services and the Department of Health. Another question to the Premier. Last year the government cut back access for the 13- and 14-year-olds in the Children's Dental Program across rural Manitoba. Thousands of children were affected. This program provides education; it provides prevention, and it provides vital services for children receiving dental services in rural Manitoba.

I would like to ask the Premier: Does he have any study dealing with the impact of his cutbacks last year on the Children's Dental Program, and what policy areas does he have in place for the decisions they are going to communicate to the staff tomorrow at budget time, at 1 :30, running the Children's Dental Program in the province of Manitoba? *

(1345) Hon. Gary Almon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I was not cavalierly offering to have the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) provide information. I was wanting to do so out of a sincere desire to have the question answered. The Leader of the Opposition, as he is wont to do, offers extraneous comments on half a dozen different items as part of his

preamble, most of which are inaccurate, and I have to address the inaccuracies. His lack of credibility has to be demonstrated, so I respond to him in that respect. Mr. Speaker, I can just tell him that with respect to the Children's Dental Program, he will have an opportunity to examine any and all decisions that are made on any and all items in this budget, but I point out to him that in Saskatchewan, that program was removed for many, many of the children living in Saskatchewan. That program was found to be

April 5, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 19 either not supportable or too much of a cost to the people of Saskatchewan under Mr. Romanow's NDP government. So when he points out to these sorts of things, he has to look at reality. I know that he has the great benefit of not looking at reality. As a member of the opposition, he can just be irresponsible day after day and, as he did today when asked by a reporter, say, I have no suggestions to offer; I have no alternatives to offer; ali i want to do is criticize. We know where he is coming from, Mr. Speaker.

That kind of lack of responsibility is why he remains the Leader of the Opposition. APM Management Consultants Travel Expenses Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. Another unfortunate reality today is the minister has confirmed the Department of Health has signed a $3.9-million contract, or more, if the Canadian dollar should happen to go down, to a U.S.-based consultant who makes health care reform sound like a fast food franchise. Why, in addition to the $3.9 million, plus more if the Canadian dollar goes down, is the government forcing St.

Boniface Hospital and the Health Sciences Centre to pay the expenses which could be up to $800,000, that is, the expenses of these consultants to fly into Winnipeg to do their work? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, let me deal with the issue of the consultant and the tabling of the contract. As I indicated, should we undertake a contract with APM, we would make full and complete information available, which was done this morning. Mr. Speaker, a number of inaccuracies have already come to light from my honourable friend's previous questioning.

I do not want to go into all of those inaccuracies, but let us not allow my honourable friend to leave the impression that this contract with APM is not supported by St. Boniface Hospital and Health Sciences Centre. Those two institutions and their respective boards urged and have been urging the government for some eight weeks to get on with completion of a contract which we announced today. The reason why we have undertaken this contract is threefold. It represents an opportunity for those two hospitals to maintain their current level of patient services and care delivery.

Secondly, it will enable caregivers to spend more of their precious time delivering hands-on car e to patients. Mr. Speaker, as a benefit, there can be significant savings to both of those institutions. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the minister: In addition to the $3.9-million fee, could not St.

Boniface Hospital and Health Sciences Centre use that perhaps additional $800,000 in expenses that they are going to pay for air travel, lodging, local transportation, meals and other miscellaneous expenses, could they not use that $800,000 potential for patient care, to deliver patient services to patients rather than expenses for U.S. consultants? * (1 350) Mr. Orchard: Well, I take it, Mr. Speaker, although my honourable friend has not been direct enough in his

preamble or his questions to say whether he agrees or disagrees with the engagement of this consultant firm-1 am not certain where he stands there-let me remind my honourable friend that the two hospitals in question, St.

Boniface and Health Sciences Centre, for a number of weeks now, have been very much urging this government to engage the consultant because they want to meet what they see as decreasing financial resources with the ability, Sir, to maintain the current volume of patient services, which is part and parcel of this agreement to increase the amount of opportunity and time that caregivers, nurses and other staff spend with actual patient care delivery and at the same time save precious tax resources. The hospitals are doing that because they care about preserving patient care and medicare in the province of Manitoba.

That is why we have agreed to fund this contract through casino revenues. Tender Process Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, yes, and we saw that the two hospital presidents, no nurses, no one else from the hospitals were at that press conference this morning. They were supposed to have a plan and now they have brought in their consultant to try-will the minister perhaps table the tender notice for all of the other consulting firms and Canadian firms that were asked to do this project? Will he tender one scintilla of evidence that this contract was offered to other individuals, other

14 20 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 consulting firms, and not to the one U.S.-based firm that does not even have a Canadian bas4� or Canadian education person on their staff, if !their prospectus can be believed? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, we undertook exactly that kind of discussion with a number of our major Canadian consultant firms. Also, I regret my honourable friend does not consider the presidents of Hetalth Sciences Centre and St.

Boniface, the board chairs of those two respective institutions, and the vice-presidents of medicine of those respective institutions to be nonentities, because they were at the press conference this morning to support and to encourage government to undertake this firm and their engagement in consulting. Mr. Speaker, the Canadian firms have had an opportunity of some four months to propose any initiative that they wish. Let me tell my honourable friend a simple fact, and this was confirmed by the CEOs of our major hospitals.

There is no Canadian consulting presence which has the experience in restructuring health care that APM does. We have been told by Canadian consulting firms that should they have been engaged, they would have contracted with American expertise, quite probably the same ones we engaged directly, Sir, because such expertise does not exist in- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Student Social Allowance Program Success Rate Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Sect)nd Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba has the highest poverty rate in all of Canada, higher even than Newfoundland, which is generally considetred to be the poorest province in Confederation. In addition, Manitoba has the highest child poYerty rate, nearly 6 percent higher than the next province, being Saskatchewan. The Premier, earlier in this afternoon session, said that student social allowances were not provided anywhere else in Canada. That is true, but nowhere else in Canada do they have the pov,erty rates that we do. Nowhere else in Canada do they have the child poverty rates.

Can the Premier of this province provide this House with a breakdown of the success, or lack of success, on academic performance of those students who are on student social assistance? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, with respect to the so-called statistics on poverty rates- An Honourable Member: So-called? Mr. Almon: Well, Statistics Canada admits to the following information: For instance, the low-income cutoffs or poverty-line figures are arbitrary national guidelines.

Because of this, the low-income estimates assume that a family of four persons living in Winnipeg needs exactly the same level of income as a similar family in Toronto or Vancouver, and as such, they totally distort the fact that the cost of living in Manitoba is eighth in the country-much lower. In fact, if you will look further into the statistics, you will find that the average income of all Manitoba families in 1991 was fifth best amongst all of the provinces. Fifth best-that is the average income of Manitoba families. So, Mr.

Speaker, there are serious flaws that are acknowledged by Statistics Canada in using that figure that she points to. With respect to the- An Honourable Member: Are you saying there is no poverty in Manitoba? Mr. Almon: I am not saying that at all­ Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. *

(1355) Mr. Almon: Mr. Speaker, none of us would like to have anybody living in poverty in any province, and we certainly do not want to have people living in poverty in this province, but to use the arbitrary figures that do not paint a representative picture, that are not related to the cost of living in this province vis-a-vis other provinces, is not an accurate figure. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the student welfare program, I have said before, that is a program that has been found to be unaffordable by all the other provinces in Canada.

They did not bring it in because they said it was not something they could afford or justify. Therefore, we, in looking at programs and having to make difficult choices, have to look at this and say: Why is it not able to be afforded; why is it not able to be justified in any other province in Canada? Therefore, we, in looking at scarce dollars, have to ensure that we make maximum use of those scarce dollars.

April 5, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 21 Post-Secondary Education Accessibility Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Premier makes reference to "so-called statistics," arbitrary statistics, but they are the statistics by which every single province, including Newfoundland, the poorest province in the nation, is judged, and we still come out at the bottom. In addition, we have the lowest percentage of young people who go on to post-secondary educational institutions, the lowest in Canada.

Can the Premier tell the House how we are going to encourage more people to go on to post-secondary education institutions when we are cutting young people bythe thousandwho would get the benefit of the education necessary to make them eligible to go into post-secondary education? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): The educational opportunities continue to be there. What is needed, of course, is for them to find alternate means of ensuring that they can support themselves. Mr. Speaker, in the past, those people have lived with their families while they continued to go to school.

In the past, they have found part-time work. In the past, they have found opportunities within their circle of support, that is, the community, and that is what is done in nine other provinces today. Student Social Allowance Program Success Rate Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, obviously the Premier does not live in the world that the rest of us live in, because we know that these very young people who are on social allowances in many cases are supporting families. They could go back to families? They are the heads of families.

Many of these others, quite frankly, have not got alternative means because they lack the very education to even get a job at Mc Donald's. Can the Premier tell us, other than going back to their families, what other alternate methods, policies and initiatives does he have for these people? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, I cannot afford to Jive in the world of the Leader of the Liberal Party. I acknowledge that. The fact of the matter is that no other province in Canada has been able to justify or afford this particular program. That is the bottom line. Social Assistance CRISP Benefit Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I believe that the Conservative government of this province is heartless, uncaring, callous, unfair and rapacious. What is the proof of these statements? The proof is the cuts to foster family rates, the increase in child care rates, the elimination of the student social al lowance program and the elimination of the funding to MAPO and friendship centres and many, many other programs.

How can the Minister of Family Services, in good conscience, be part of a government that today signed a contract with a consultant for $3.9 million and at the same time has eliminated CRI SP as a benefit that people on social assistance in the city of Winnipeg can keep when he knows that we have the highest child poverty rate- Mr. Speaker : Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. *

(1400) Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I would ask the member for Burrows to look at the comments that his Leader made in today's paper when asked what he would do if he was in government He said: I do not know; I cannot tell you. Yet out on the steps day after day, he tells every group, yes, we would reinstate that, we would do this, we would do everything, but he does not say how he is going to get that money. I would also ask him to look at the governments in Saskatchewan and B.C. to see what they are doing-making a few cuts but also raising taxes.

The sales tax in Saskatchewan is now up to 9 percent. The sales tax in British Columbia is now up to 7 percent. That is the alternative that the member for Burrows is putting forward, is to raise taxes. Income Tax Refunds Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows) : Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Family Services did not answer the question about why CRI SP was eliminated as a benefit. Why has the Minister of Family Services decided to claw back income tax rebates for people on city assistance when this is targeting people on social assistance who have earned income from employment? Why do they have to forego getting

14 22 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 5, 19 93 this revenue when anyone else who works is entitled to these benefits? Why is he targeting city social assistance recipients? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the member is terribly mist aken. By standardizing the rules and regulations by which social allowances is put forth in Manitoba, CRISP has never been recognized as part of the social allowance program for provincial recipients and now will not be recognized by the City of Winnipeg.

As far as income tax, the social allowance program is the source of income of last re!�ort. While we do exempt a number of tax credits, c:hild tax benefits, the GST rebate, we have nover exempted the income tax refund. Mr. Martindale: Can this minister explain to sc.cial assistance recipients why this change in policy was made in the middle of the refund season so that some people who got their cheques before April 1 are allowed to keep this income and people after April 1 are going to have it deducted 1 00 perc�ent from one cheque? We are talking about famillies, and we may be talking amounts of up to $1 ,000.

How can this minister make this change at this time, in the middle of the refund season? Mr. GIIIeshammer: Mr. Speaker, the member was here for the debate on Bill70. I am not surprised he did not understand it. Clearly the bill said that these changes would be brought in on April1. The question of the income tax rebate, the province has always regarded that as additional revenue to recipients. Student Social Allowance Program Funding Reinstatement Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns ) : Mr. Speaker, I do not think the Premier really understands the student social allowance program.

This program makes it possible for a significant number of Manitobans to go to school, to get a be•tter job, to get off welfare. Some of these people do not have homes to go back to. Some of these people are parents themselves, and without this program, they will be still on welfare but not getting an education. I want to ask the Premier: Given that that is the focus of the program, will he now agree to reconsider this devastating decision and reinstate the student social allowance program? Hon. Gary Almon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I do not think the member for St.

Johns understands that throughout nine other provinces in Canada, and in the past in this province, families took responsibility for family members. People took responsibility for their own efforts. They did not just turn to welfare. They sought alternatives, and they do seek alternatives in other provinces. That is why, regrettably, this is just one of many difficult decisions that we have had to make. We cannot afford to do everything. Recipient Survey Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns ): Mr.

Speaker, I wish the Premier had the courage to go out on the front steps of the legislature today and see the real face of these cutbacks. I would like to ask the Premier then if he would make a commitment to this House and to Manitobans, if before finally cutting this program, he would survey all existing participants of the student social allowance program to see how many are parents, how many are single parents, how many have no other homes to go back to and give them the option of having the benefit of this program so that they can break the welfare cycle. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, it does not take any courage to do as the opposition members do, to go out and tell every group that comes to this legislature, we would give you more, we would pay more, we would give you more money, and then not have the courage to face up to the taxpayer and say, we would raise your taxes, just like they did for six and a half years when they were government, increase the personal taxes, the personal income taxes 139 percent over a space of six and a half years. They do not have that kind of courage. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: It is the taxpayers of this province who support breaking the welfare cycle and putting people back to work. The Province of Manitoba Out-Migration Statistics Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns ): Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier: How many more young people, in addition to the 23,000 who have already left Manitoba under this government since 1988, is this government prepared to see leave Manitoba before acting to create opportunities

April 5, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 23 for young people instead of cutting them off from all available opportunities? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): As usual, the memb er has her facts dead wrong . That is absolutely a false statement about the 23,000. [interjection] That is right, Mr. Speaker. The fact of the matter is well over half of the decline, in fact 61 percent of it, is the direct result of the aging of the post-war baby boom generation, so they do not appear in the statistics because they have now moved beyond the 25-year-old bracket.

There is an old saying, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and the member for St. Johns is the best example of that. Home Care Program Equipment/Supply Costs Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Last week we learned that the government is going to cut programs with supplies such as walkers and crutc hes. These programs are very vital to keep patients in their homes. Can the Minister of Health tell this House how, by cutting these program s, he is going to justify the commu nity-based health care system? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, that question was posed speculatively some 1 0 days ago, and I indic ated that with patience one should await the budget tomorrow and have an accurate assessment of what sort of program changes may be part of the budget as they impact on the Ministry of Health and across government in general. From time to time, some of the speculation is not particularly productive in terms of engendering understanding of the challenges government faces today in creating budgets which do not impose undue tax hardships on the citizens of this province, maintain a balance of services and keep our deficit down. Mr.

Cheema: Mr. Speaker, can the minister then tell this House if he is saying that they are not going to cut this program ? Can he say very clearly that tomorrow's budget will not cut any Home Care programs? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is that the budget details tomorrow will reveal the size of the Home Care budget, and I think my honourable friend might be somewhat surprised at the size of the Home Care budget. Children's Dental Program Elimination Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister of Health tell this House if the provincial children's program is going to be cut tomorrow also? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, again, I would just impose upon my honourable friend for the patience to await the budget tomorrow. It will put to rest a lot of speculation around a number of initiatives that various writers and speculators have said are part of tomorrow's budget. * (141 0) Rural Development Corporations Funding Ms. Ro sa nn Wow chuk (Swan Rive r): Mr. Speaker, this government has no respect for rural Man itob ans.

They prom is ed economic development, but all they have done is drain money out. Even though municipal officers and nonprofit organizations are protesti ng, this government refuses to listen. The very organiz ations that help promote economic development are now having their funding cut. I want to ask the Minister of Rural Development how he can justify the 1 0 percent cut, reduction in funding, to RDCs, the very organizations that promote econom ic development in rural Manitoba. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minis ter of Rural Development): Mr.

Speaker, of co urse, the member knows full well that over the course of the last number of years, our government has indeed promoted economic development in rural Manitoba. I can simply refer to several of the programs that have been initiated under this gover nment. Whether it is the Grow Bonds program, which the opposition was not very enthused about, or the Rural Economic Development Initiative program , which the opposition was not in favour of at all, the Communi ty Choices program , have indeed been tools that rural com munities have been able to use to build upon the strength of their communities.

I hav e to say that even through the decentralization process, we have been able to move jobs out to rural Manitoba, a process that the opposition was indeed opposed to right from the very beginning. So we have comm itted an

14 24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 enormous amount of energy and effort to rural Manitoba. ContlnuaUon Ms. Rosann Wowch uk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, this minister should get out and listen to what rural Manitobans think about all of his proposals.

In light of the fact that people across the province are concerned about the long-term viabil it�f of organiz ations geared towards economic develop ment-in fact the previous member for Portage Ia Prairie was very concerned about what this government was doin�an the Minister of Rural Development assure us that RDCs will continue to operate in rural Manitoba and that we will have economic developmen t under this government rather than just draining out mone )I- Mr. Speaker : Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Hon. Leonard De rkach (Minis ter of Rural Development): Mr.

Speaker, there is no intention to eliminate RDCs. As a matter of fact, we will still co nti nue to fund RDCs, but like any other organization, RDCs, whether there are o'ther organizations that function within our province, have had to live up to the reality that indeed this proviince is undergoing a serious financial situation, and indeed they have to commit some of their resources to the common solution, if you like, for economic renewal and revival in this province. Funding Ms. Ros ann Wowch uk (Swa n Rive r): Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask this Minister of Rural Development: When is this government going to fuHill its promise to rural Manitoba? They promised economic development, and all they are doing is draining out money. Now they are reducing the funding to the organizations that provide economic development. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Mi nister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, in deed our commi tment is very solid to rural Manitoba. It always has been.

Once again, through the many initiatives that we have embarked on, we have been able to create many, many jobs in rural Manitoba. [interjection] The member for Dauphin (Mr .. Plohman) spE•aks from his seat about some of the initiatives that have been embarked on. I refer to one of the largest, and that is the Ayerst Organics support that we were able to give through Rural Economic Development and some thousand jobs that we created as a result of that. Mr.

Speaker, when you look at the Grow Bonds initiatives that have been embarked on, again a creation of some 115 jobs in rural Manitob a-we have already approved many rural economic development initiatives through REDI which are going to create jobs in rural Manitoba. So our co mmitment to rural Manitoba is strong and continues to be that. Children's Dental Program Status Mr. Leonard Evans (Bran don Ea st) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Health who can maybe reconfirm that they have a comm itment to rural Manitoba.

I am advised that staff who delivered the Chi ldren's Dental Program in rural Manitoba are being called to a meeting in Winnipeg tomorrow to learn about a so-called restructuring of the program. There are 49 staff involved, mainly women, who deliver a preventative dental health program for children in rural and northern Manitoba. Can the Minister of Health confirm that this meeting is scheduled and that an excellent program for preventative health care is about to be either eliminated or to be seriously curtailed? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, this is approximately the fourth time that I have asked honourable friends opposite to bear with some patience for the budget tomorrow. My honourable friend will have answers to any and all questions that he may wish to pose. Let me digress slightly and reiterate to my honourable friend the member for Brandon the kind of commitment that we have made to health care outside of the city of Winnipeg. The first ever cardiac imaging equipment in Brandon General Hospital was installed there as a result of this gov ernment.

It was long denie d when my honourable friend had the decision-making ability to put it in the Brandon General Hospital. Mr . Leonard Eva ns: Mr. Spe aker, the developmen t of the Brandon General Hospital under the NDP puts this government to shame. My question for the Minister of Health: Why does his government even consider cutting back a

April 5, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 25 preventative program which will reduce additional costs in the future and therefore can be less costly to society in the long run? Why is the government being so shortsighted in downgrading- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr. Orchard : Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend, I think, mentioned the word "shame." The only shame I am ever aware of that was associated with Brandon General Hospital is the shame that my honourable friend endu red when he went underground when the governmen t he sat in forced the closur e of acute care beds at Brandon General Hospital without consu ltation , without discussion, without backup of com munity services. That is the kind of shame my honourable friend ought to refer to. Mr. Leonard Evans: The minister has no answer so he speaks nons ense, absolute nonsense. Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health, who is supposed to be so concerned about preventative health care in rural Manitoba. Why does this minister pick on children who benefit from this progr am? Why do you pick on women who are primarily involved in delivering it? Why do you pick on rural Manitoba, where this program is opera ting? Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speaker, I do not know how to give my friend an opportunity to defend where he was in that three-month period of absence when the hospital beds were closed by the NDP in Brandon, when he was- Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne is very clear that ministers do not have to answer questions. We know that happens on a regular basis, but the member for Brandon East has asked a question about a very importan t program, the Chil dren's Dental Progr am. If this minister does not have an answer, he should maybe not only sit down- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable opposition House leader does not have a point of orde r. *** Mr. Orchard : Mr.

Speaker, I just wish the member for Thompson had the courage to ask me some questions about health care improvements in his city, things that he could not achieve when he was a backbencher in the NDP. Mr. Speaker, any time my honourable friend the member for Brandon East wants to talk about provision of health care services in rural Manitoba, I will walk him through the construction of a new hospital for acute care delivery in Minnedosa, I will walk him through the construct ion of a new hospital for acute care health delivery in Virden. Children are served in those hospitals.

Children are born in those hospitals. Children breathe their first breaths in those hosp ital s-t her e because an NDP gov ernment would not build them, and we did. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statements Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): May I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the hono urable minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed) Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, it gives me a great degree of pride and pleasure to have the opportunity to rise and ask all members of this House to wish very strong, warm , hearty congratulations to Brandon and area citizens for the 85th Royal Winter Fair, which was just hosted last week. Mr. Speak er, the citizen s of Brandon did them selves very proud in a new nine-and-a-half-acre complex that was deemed by many of the American visitors as the best they have seen in all of North America. It was a success because of a thousand vo lunteers, a comm itted board of directors, world-class exhibitors from all over North America. Mr.

Speaker, I would ask all members of this House to join with me in congratulating Brandon for a job well done over the course of many years and concluded this year with the best show ever. I know next year will be even better. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: Does the hon ourable member for Brandon East have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): It gives me great pleasure, Mr. Speaker, to join with the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) in congratulating everyone associated with the Royal Winter Fair held in Brandon.

As the minister indicated, it indeed is a massive volunteer co-operative effort in the community and does all of Manitoba proud.

14 26 LEGISLATIVE J�SSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 I was particularly impressed,. as I am sure the members opposite were, with the participants who came from all over North America to be involvEtd in various things, including the famous horse show. Mr. Speaker, I know there has been development under this government of the Keystone Centre .. but I am proud of the fact that we built the Keystone Ce ntre back in '70-71 . It was the greatest thing to ever be put in the city of Brandon. *

(1420) Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Bon iface have leave to make a nonp ol itical statement? [agreed] Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speak4H, I would like to join my colleagues here in the Legislature in wishing well, again, and congratulate Brandon in putting up that 85th fair. I have had the pleasure of attending for the last five years, and I would not miss it. I met a lot of Liberals there. The friendship that they have shown in hospitality-the hospitality is great and the friendnhip that they have shown over the years, and the mayor has always welcomed us there and welcomes everybody.

Like I say, it was a pleasure. I will look forwar d to being there again next year. The volunteers, we have to congr atulate, because they are the ones who are responsible for putting up such a great show and the talent that comes out of th4�re. Again, congratulations to the people of Brandon ;and the surrounding areas. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you call second readings, Bills 17 and 18 . SECOND READINGS 811117-The Crown Lands Amendment Act Hon.

Harry Enns (Min ist er of Natural Resources): I am delighted to move, seconded by the honour able Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey), that Bi11 17, The Crown Lands Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les terres domaniales, be now read a second time and referred to a comm ittee of this HCluse. Motion presented. Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, this although not a very large bill in terms of the number of clauses involved, but these amendments to The Crown Lands Act are truly of significance. For all those who have an ongoing concern about our natural environment, what this is, is really a ground-breaking amendment to the real property legislation of this province, will enable certain covenants-wildlife and conservation covenants-to travel with the titles. This is, at this point, confined to Crown lands.

Honourable memb ers will be aware, former ministers will be aware, from time to time Crown lands, if they meet the criteria as set down by the different cla ssification procedures that are in place and have been in place for many years, can and are sold to private Manitobans, but very ofte n, there are specific physical features about the land that ought to be in place and continue to be in place; that is, land that is not suitable for breaking, land that is providing a valuable habitat for various forms of wildlife, land that forms part of a wildlife corridor.

While there is no reason why this land cannot be sold to private property holders in Manitoba, there is ample reason for wildlife interest and for the natural resource interest that these special features of this land be preserved. There has been no vehicle in place that could ensure that woul d take place. There was no way that a cove nant could be legally attached to the title that not only bound the initial purchaser of that Crown land, but that would in fact travel with the title from purchaser to purcha ser. I might say, Mr.

Speaker, other jurisdictions, particularly some in the East where there is little or no Crown land or public or federal land, as in the case of the Un ited States, various wildlife and natural ist organi zati ons ha ve encour aged governments to entertain this kind of legislation to preserve remaining habitat. I woul d like to-although this is not inherent in this bill , I serve notice that, in my view, it would be an appropriate amendment to make available to private lands that have sim ilar features wort hwhile preserving for natural habitat reasons and/or for specific wildlife reasons.

We have instances where people who now wish in their wills to leave Iand-a particular 40 acres or a particular quarter

section that they in their lifetime have husbanded in such a way that the natural resources of that piece of land were retained, that the provision it provided for habitat cover for various species of wildlife be maintainec:Hlo that it be

Apri1 5, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 27 passed on to future generations, but there is no legal way. There is no legal way that can be done. I am suggesting to my Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) that in the future a similar amendment, a similar change to the cu rrent Real Property Act be considered so that coul d be done.

Right now what happens all too often is that a person who has the kind of land I am describing and wishing for it to be maintained in its natural state will often come to gover nment and say to my depar tment, the Department of Natural Resources, will you take on ownership of this land. Mr.

Speaker, honourable members, I wish to acknowledge the former administration did indeed set up a Manitoba Habitant Heritage Corporation partially for that reason, so that under the jurisdiction of this Crown agency , Manitobans wishing to bequeath, but more importantly wishing to ensure that land that had a particular value in its natural state could con tinue in this way for future generations, and that the benefits to wildli fe resources and our department would derive from that if the land remained undeveloped, untouched and not altered from its natural state. Mr.

Speaker, that is something I hope that perhaps I will be able to provide to the Legislature for consideration at some future date. * (1 430) What I can do and what I am doing by this bill is address ing that area that I have im mediate legislative responsibil ity for, and that is Crown lands.

So it is not too difficult to ask members of this Legislature to consider these amendments as they relate to when the provi nce, when the government sells Crown lands, that it is possible, when the various experts within the department make a case, that certain features of that land, the natural state of that land, be preserved for the different reasons that I have mentioned, that that in fact be so noted on the title and that that covenant then foreve r travels with the title.

Indeed if in some future generations that land is purchased, there is a well noted caveat on the lan d title docume nts that alerts the prospective purchaser ofthe fact thatthis land, while it may be purchased, it may be repurchased many times over in the future, but the natural habitat, the natural land cove r must be preserved in its natural state. It is progressive legislation, Mr. Speaker.

It is the kind of legisl ation that, to gether with other progressive legislation I have been able to introduce in this House, such as The Endangered Species Act, worries about the well-being of those wildlife species that ar e thr eatened with ongoing development on our landscape. It forms part of the overall tools and mechanisms that gover nment can bring to bear to halt the con tinuing decline and loss of habi tat that is so import ant for the wildlife resources of this prov ince. I would suggest to the honourable members opposite that they acquaint themselves with these amendments.

I know that organizations such as the Manitoba Naturalists' Society and others, the Wilderness Caucus groups by and large support this kind of legislation. They may not support it in its exact wording, but it is the kind of legislation that I would like to think does not have all that great deal of partisan politics attached to it. Surely in this Chamber, whether we are New Democr ats or Liberals or Conse rvati ves, we have some understanding, some hope to pass on our wildlife resources to future generations yet unborn. I look that on this particular bill, we will have unanimous support for the bill.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, before adjourning debate, I just wonder if I could ask a question for clarification of the minister, if that is agreeable? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to allow the honourable member for Thompson to ask the honourable minister a question for clarification? There is leave. (agreed) Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, I just wanted to ask the minister, and I appreciate his comments, if there are any restrictions on the type of cove nant that can be transferred under this partic ular legislation, or whether it can apply to any and all covenants respecting the use of the land for wildlife or habitat purposes. Mr. Enns: The actuallegislation-1 am prohibited in our rules, Mr. Speaker, to deal clause by clause with the legislation. We are dealing in second reading in the principle of the bill.

The hon ou rable member will see in the clause of the bill that it refers to an agreement that when the seller and the purchaser enter into a sale of a particular piece of property, an agreement be arrived at, and it is within that agreement that variations pertinent to that piece of

14 28 LEGISLATIVE J!1SSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 land would be noted. It is that agreement that becomes the covenant that would travel with that. In some cases, it will be a prohibition against any breaking of the land, for instance, the taking dc>wn of any trees in that area. In another case, it maJI be a case of not impeding a natural drainage or natLJral creek to flow through the land, and the agreement may specifically refer to not being able to put a clam or some obstruction in the normal waterco urse. So it is not restrictive in that sense.

It will be a question of the agreement spelling out the unique resou rce features of that specific piece of land that the go ve rnmen t-i n this ins tance, the Cr own agency-wishes to protect and wishes to ensurE• its protec tion in succeeding sales to future generations of prospective buyers. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speak e,, I move , seconded by the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. 811118-T he Corporations Amendment Act Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs) : Mr. Sp eaker, I mov e , seconded by the Minister of Industry, Trade a1nd To urism (Mr.

Ste fanson), that Bill 18 , The Corporations Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les corpora tions, be now read a second time a.nd be referred to a comm ittee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Mcintos h: Mr. Speaker, the suggested amendments would require all trust and loan corporations doing business in Manitoba to obtain a business authorization , file an annual busine•ss return, pay an annual fee to the province and formalize the existing quarterly financial reporting requirement.

As the busi ness authorization requirement is a new concept, all trust and loan corporations cu rrently doing business in Manitoba would automatic ally be given a bus in ess authoriz ation within a four-month deadline to fiiEI a formal applic atio n. This legislation will not result in needless duplic ation of regulatory activity as we will continue to rely upon the incorporating jurisdiction to act as the primary regulator. At the present time there €1re some provinces which have adopted what is called the equals approach which does result in duplicaUon of activities, particularly in regard to audits.

This has highlighted the need for harmoniz ation which Manitoba fully endorses. As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, over the past several years, the provinces and the federal gov ernmen t hav e been working towards a harmoni zed reregulation of financial institutions, and this bill is one of the first steps in this province in attaining that goal of harmoniza tion. The enactment of this bill will not dramatically change the practices of the trust and loan division but will formalize the requirement for extraprovincial trust and loan corporations.

We have always, here in Man itoba, ope rated on the basis that the incorporating jurisdiction is the lead jurisdiction on regulatory matters, and this principle will conti nue. Again, there will be no undue duplic ation. The current legislation does not provide for a level playing field under which all trust and loan corpora tions doing business in the provinces play by. At the present time, ex traprovi nc ial corpora tions are not required to directly report to the trust and loan division of the department nor to pay a fee to the province.

The proposed legislation will change that and provide for the equal treatment of all trust and loan corporations doing business in the province. At the present time, all companies operating in the province are required to have deposit insurance through the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporat ion, CDIC, and this provision will not change. Manitoba is unique among the provinces in that we use the office of the federal Superintendent of Rnancial Institutions to act as the auditor for the director of our trust and loan division.

I might add that the Sup erintendent of Insurance for Manitoba has the same arran gement with the federal Su perintendent of Financial Institutions. This is a very important arrange ment for us in that it minimizes the cost of audit programs as well as maximizes the use of all resources in this field. This legislation will not change this relatio nship, and in fact, because this legislation moves us into the direction of greater harmonization, it will probably strengthen the feasibility of maintaining this co-operative effort. This is of great benefrt to Manitoba.

If we were not to change our legislation, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that we might not be able to maintain this relationship with the Federal Superin tendent of Financial Institutions

April 5, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 29 because that office would be required to report under two distinctly different pieces of legislation. In short, Mr. Speaker, the basic purpose ofthe bill is to require that trust and loan corpora tions be authorized to do business in the province, to require them to pay an annual fee, to require trust and loan corporations operating in the province to file financial and other statements as required, and is phase one of a two-step process which will ultimately result in harmo nization of these procedures across the country. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I look forward to my critics' comm ents on this issue. * (1 440) Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable ac ting government House leader, what are your intentions, sir? Hon. Jim Ernst (Acting Government House Leader): Would you please call Bill 2 and Bill 3? Mr. Speaker: Prior to proceeding with Bi ll 2 and Bill 3, I just happen to notice that on the Order Paper, we have debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness), which I believe is redundant at this point in time. I am wondering, would there be leave of the House to have this motion taken off the Order Paper, or is it the will of the House to leave it on the Order Paper? (inter jec tion] It is the motion of the honourable Mi nister of Finance about notwithstanding Rule 65(6.1 ). Is there a willingness on the part of the members just to help clean up the Order Paper? Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I think it is redundant.

Just for information, I know there may be some confusion, but we have already tabled the Estimates' order list, so it is redundant. I suggest we do, by leave, delete it from the Order Paper. Mr. Speaker: There is a willingness on the part of members then? That is agreed? (agreed) I would like to thank honourable members. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 2-The Endangered Species Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), Bill 2, The Endangered Species Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les especes en voie de disparition, standing in the name of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Eva ns). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed] Bill 3-The 011 and Gas and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honou rable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey), Bill 3, The Oil and Gas and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi concernant le petrole et le gaz natural et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois, standing in the name of the honour able member for Elmwood (Mr.

Malowa y). Some Honourable Members: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed) Honourable acting govern ment House leader, what are your intentions now , sir? Hon. Jim Ernst (Acting Government House Leader): Would you call Bill 20, please. Bill 20-The Social Allowances Regulation Validation Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) , Bi ll 20, The Social Allowances Regulation Validation Act; Loi validant un reglement d'application de Ia

Loi sur l' aide so cia le, stand ing in the name of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed) Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, before I delve into the purpose and intent of this bill, I would like to go back to some statements that were made by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) in Question Period to day. In fact, I thought that this bill would probably stand in the name of the Minister of Family Services, but I

14 30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 guess because it is a very technical amendment, for some reason, it is standing in the name of the Minister of Justice and Attorney General (Mr. McCra e). However, today, in response to my question, of course, the minister did not answer my questio n; in fact, he gave misleading informati on. When I al�ked about the CRISP benefit being disallowed as a benefit for people on city social assistance, he referred to the policy of the provincial social assistance system.

Of course, I am already familiar with the policy regarding the provincial social assistance system, and that is that people can receive the benefit, but it is deducted dollar for dollar from their cheques, so most people do not bo, ther applying. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Speaker, in the Chair} The situation with the City of Winnipeg is quite different.

The reason it is different is that myself and the exec utive director of the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization and the staffperson for lnterage•ncy Group, back about 19 83 or 19 84,. went to a standing comm ittee of City Council and asked for a number of improvements to social assistance benefits. We had quite a list of things that we asked for, some of which we were not successful in getting and some of which we were. One of the substantial changes that was made was that the City of Winnipeg decided to allow people on city assistance to receive the CRISP benefit, the Child Related Income Su pport Progr am .

They also allowed people to receive the SAFFR benefit, Supplem entary Assistance for Family Renters. That was a significant difference betw,een City of Winnipeg policy and Province of Manit•oba policy. Ever since that time, the Manitoba Anti-Pov •erty Organization and other groups have been lobb)•ing the provincial government, unsuccess fully, to allow people on provi ncial assistance to receive the Child Related Income Support Program benefit. The province has consistently said no, because it is a program that is targeted for low-income but working people, and so they were unwilling to change 1h at rule.

Now, because of the standardization of social assistance rates under Bill 70 in the last session, the differenc es in bene fits have basi cal ly be•en eliminated, and so the people on city that were eligible for provincial programs no longer are. That was the intent of my question. My question was: Why has the gove rnment changed that, knowing that Manitoba has the highest child poverty rate in Canada? We are talking about people who are already very low-income families and who need this money.

The money is used for basic essential items such as food and clot hing, in addition to their food and clot hing allowance, and probably being used for school supplies and runners and all kinds of things that they are not able to take out of their existing social assistance budget. So I am very disappoin ted, first of all, that the gov ernment has made this change in policy and, secondly, that the minister did not have the decency to answer the question properly and defend this policy decision that he made.

Secondly, we asked the minister about changes to income tax refunds and what people are allowed to keep and what they are not allowed to keep. Well, I did my research before I asked this question. I always do my research before I ask questions. In fact, I always know what the answer is before I ask the question.

It is pretty hard to get a straight answer out of a minister who distorts what you say and when you ask about income tax refunds talks aloout the CRISP benefit, and when you know that some kinds of income are exempt and others are not and you know what the differences are, and the minister knows that I know what the differences are, why can he not just answer the question and defend his policy? I am going to be-{interjection] As my honourable friend from Dauphin says, that would be asking too much from the minister.

Tomorrow morning when I get Hansard on line, I will be checking his answer for accuracy, because I think he distorted the intent of the question in his distorted answer, because I believe that my sources of information were correct. I was talking to staff of the City of Winnipeg who said that they had no warning of this. Yet the minister referred to Bill 70 of the last session, which I believe was passed in June, one of the last bills passed in June of the third session.

If that is the case, then the City of Winnipeg should have had ample notice and workers should have known what changes were coming as a result of

April S, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 31 changes to pr ovincia l legisla tion regarding standardization. If that is the case, why did they not get six months notice ? Why did they not get three months notice ? Why did they not get a months notice? What I am told by the front line staff is that they do not even have the new regulations. So the front line staff are goin g to their supervi sors and asking their supervi sors, wha t are the new rules? The supervisors apparently have some information and that information contradicts what the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer) said in the House today in response to my question. So when we read that answer, we will be seeking cl arification either in Question Period or in Esti mates, if we ever get to Estimates, or in Budget Debate or in Question Period. We get another chance to try to get this minister to clarify his answers. Hon. Ha rry Enns (Minist er of Natural Resources): Check with Eccl esiastes,

Chapter 10 , Verse 2. Mr. Martindale: Well, the Minister of Natural Resources wants to quo te Scriptures. I happen to have read the Scriptu re. I am waiting for the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld). I understand the member for Rossmere is going to address this in his Budget Debate, and I am waiting for that moment. I am going to consult the commentaries. You will just have to be patient and wait until after the member for Rossmere speaks, and then I will give the rebuttal to the

interpretation of the member for Rossmere. I think it is not quite as simple as the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) would like to think. I am sure that, since it is from the Book of Ecclesiaste s, it has a much deeper meaning than the surface meaning that he would like to give to that passage. [interjection] There are many good things in the Bible. There are many things in the book that you probably do not agree with, Mr. Deputy Premier, but that is not the purpose of this debate today . We will get into Biblical

interpretation on your Sunday shopping bills. I think it is the kind of passage that your members would like to ignore. * (1 450) In Bill 20, The Social Allowances Regulation Validation Act, the Minister of Justice and Atto rney General (Mr. McCrae) refers to kinds of income which are exempt, for example, Manitoba cost of living and proper ty tax credits, the federal child tax benefit and the federal goods and services tax credit. Those are the kinds of income that have been exempt and will continue to be exempt and which I was aware of when I asked my question to day.

My understanding is that what I was asking the minister about today was income from employment, rebates from employment income that people are no longer eligible to receive. The Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) did not answer my question, as he usually does not, but we will read what he said in Hansard and we will go after him again.

There does appear, howeve r, to be a change as a result of Bill 20 and a change that concerns me, . because it says that amendments to the regulations will ensure that income from exempt sources will be excl uded from a recipien t's income when determining eligibility for social allowance benefits in the month it is received. I am waiting to see the actual regulation, because my suspicion is that it will be only for one month that it is exempted and, after that, it will be considered incom e. In fact, in his remarks, the Minister of Justice (Mr.

McCrae) said that this will be atthe discretion of the dir ector of social allowance for a period not exceeding 12 months from receipt of the exempt income. So what does discretion mean? Will there be discretion in some cases and not in others? Will the discretion be up to one month, even though 12 months is allowed? I am looking forward to getting a copy of the regulations for Bill 20. In fact, the sooner that the minister can provide that to me, the better, because I would like to study the regulations and compare those with the remarks of the Minister of Justice.

I know it was introduced by the Minister of Justice, but I think it properly falls under the responsibil ity of the Minister of Family Services since this has to do with social allo wances. I think that the possible effect of this bill change could be that when people get income, even though it is exempt income, after a month they are going to be forced to spend it. Now why would you want to force people to spend income that is exempt? The only reason that I can think of is that if people do not spend it, you can deduct it from their next cheq ue.

Why would you want to deduct a legitimate income that people are cu rrently allo wed to keep when-[interjection] Which side am I on? The

14 32 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) asks which side am I on? I am on the side of people who are already incredibly poor, many of them constituents of mine in Burrows constituency, but many more, I am sorry to say, in the constituencies of Wolseley and Broadway and Point Douglas. These are the people who are the most vulnerable in our society, as we keep pointing out over and over, and the ones who can least afford to lose more. And what is this government doing? It is changing the rules so that they lose income that now they are eligible for.

The rates would have g'one down if the City of Winnipeg had not chosen to top them up. At the same time, what is this government doing to their corporate friends? They are shi1ting the tax burden, as Don Campbell points out in the Free Press of April 4. So if you look at corporation tax revenue from 19 89 to 19 93 , it has declined from $201 millio11 to $10 3 million, a decline of $1 00 mi llion dollars. What has happened to personal tax revenue? It has incr eased from $1 .3 billion to $1 .24 billion, and as a percentage it has increased from 39 percent to 46.7 percent.

If you com pare similarly the corporati ons and their percentages, the tax burden that they shared, unequitably I would say, has decrea:sed from 8.4 percent to 4.0 percent. So when the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedner) asked me what side am I on, I am on the side of my constituents who believe that they are paying enough. In the case of social assistance recipie,nts they should at least be entitled to continue to get what they are getting now without being punished and having mo nies taken away from them, there should be some fairness, and that corpora tic>ns should be required to pay their fair share.

When the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) is asked about this and is asked why they do not hire more people to go after corporations that are behind in their taxes owing to the provincial government, he says, oh, I know you want me to hire more statf to go after that, but I am not going to do it. There are similar arguments made in the House of Commons in Ottawa if you read Hansard. I have read about this in the past. I remember reading that for every person who is hired, the federal gov ernment receives something like $17 of revenue for every dollar paid out in salaries.

Yet they are Htill unwilling to go after corporations at the federal level, and I would suggest that the provincial minister has the same problem . (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) The member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) asked which side I am on? I would like to point out that I am not the only one who is on the side of the poor. If the minister would care to read-and I am sure he probably has read the editorial in the Sa turday Free Press of April 3-the headline is, Wrong Place to Cut. It criticizes this government for their cuts to student social allowance.

I have been getting phone calls from these people, and I can tell you what the effect will be. [interjection] The minister must have an office at the front of the building. He saw me signing them up. Of course, he saw them signing petitions on my back, literally on my back. They were very eager to sign those petitions and tell this gov ernment what they think of cutting the student social allowance program. What is going to happen to these people? The minister is unwilling to admit this in Question Period, but what is going to happen is they will no longer be able to stay in school.

They will apply for city welfare because they are deemed employable, and they will not be allo wed to go to school while they are on city welfare because those are the rules. When you are on city welfare you are considered employable, and you must be available for work, and you must be searching for work. As for the cost, it is really just an offloadi ng from the province to the city because the monthly allo wance that these students are getting, I am told, is $30 less than what they would get on social assistance. So these are people who are motivated. These are people who want to go to school.

These are people who want to get an education. These are people who want to get ahead, these are people who want a job and a career-and they are willing to take a sacrifice of $30 a month, of less income in order to be part of the student social allo wance program. Is that not correct, Mr. Minister, that the basic allowance is $30 less on student social allowance? I think it is much better to have young people going to school and studying to further their job possibilities and further their possibility of getting a career than to not be in the educational system and to be on municipal social assistance.

Now you can

April S, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 33 say, well, they could get a job; in fact, that is what the minister said today . How many jobs are there out there when the unemployment rate in the city of Winnipeg is something like 12 percent, especially for people who may have a Grade 9 or 1 0 education? They are not going to get a job when there are university graduates and high school graduates who are better qualified than they to be employed. The minister suggested get a part-time job and put yourself through school.

I would suggest that a minimum wage, which is what most of these students would be able to get, nothing more- they cannot afford to put themselves through school on minimum wage, especially if they are going to work the kind of hours they need to be self-suppor ting. [interjection] The Mini ster of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Mcin tosh) says from her seat, some of us did it. That is true. I am one of the ones who did it because I worked part time when I was in high school. The difference is that I was living at home.

I was not living on my own and providing all my own income, and when I was in university, many of us worked part time to go through university. The differenc e is that these stude nts -[interjection] The member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) poi nts out that wages were relatively higher than what they are. It was more feasible to pay your way thr ough than it is no w and-{interjection] Well, I do not know when you went to school, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. For myself, it was in the early 1 970s that I was going to university and working and putting myself through university for a number of years.

I think times have changed and-{interjection]-s ame year as the minister, that is fine. The difference is that these people are living in an economy at a time when unemployment is at 12 percent, when these are the least educated people and the least likely to get decent, good-paying jobs to put themselves through school. [inter jection] The minister says the taxpayers are burdened as they have never been before.

The difference is, I believe, the taxpayers would rather pay people to go to school, would rather pay people to be in employment and training programs than to pay them to stay at home and collect social assistance. * (1 500) That is the choice that we have with these kinds of program s. It is either pay people to stay at home or pay them to go to school. I believe that the majority of taxpayers would rather see those young people stay in school, and certainly those young people would rather be in school than at home doing nothing if that is the alternative.

I believe that realistically that is the alternative for mo st of them. Mr. Acting Speaker, I am looking forward to Family Services Estimates, and I regret that we have not been into them yet. An Honourable Member: So are we. Mr. Martindale: The governm ent has been looking forward to Estimates too. In fact, I think the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) miscalcu lated, the gov ernment House leader miscalcu lated, because they did not really expect that we would not be able to get into Fam ily Services and Highways Estimates.

There was a slight miscalcu lation there, something that was kind of beyond his control, I guess. I think it is significant that he has regretted it ever since. I think he wishes that we were in Estimates rather than having to drag this out through Question Period for a couple of weeks and Question Period during budget time and delay getting into Family Services Estimates. Meanwhile, all those cuts are out there. We are getting the phone calls and we are getting the letters. People are rallying in front of the steps of the Legislature to protest these outrageous cuts.

An Honourable Member: You should recognize there are two sides to every issue, sometimes three or four. Mr. Marti ndale: The Deputy Pr emier (Mr. Downey), from his seat, says that we should rec ogni ze there are di fficult decisions, to paraphrase him. I would agree that there are difficult decisions to be made. In fact, our Leader has said, tough decisions need to be made. We agree with that. [interjectio n] The member for Concordia (Mr. Doer). The gover nment repeats over and over again that everyone has to share the pain. Well, tomorrow we will find out if that is really true or not.

For the present time, what we see are cutbacks and reductions in funding to organizations which cannot afford and should not be eliminated. There are some that we have not defended. I have not heard anybody, either inside this Chamber or outside in the media defending, for example, the

14 34 LEGISLATIVE ��SSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 5, 19 93 Manitoba Association of School Trustees and the Manitoba Association of School Supe rintendonts . None of us have been defending those two organizations. [interjection] The minister says what about teachers? There have been people who belong to those groups who have been defending their own organizations. I would grant you that. I would say we have not been defending those particular cuts. Out of the 56 organizations that the Ministe•r of Finance (Mr. Manness) withdrew all the funding from, we have been defending half a dozen.

We have been defending the Fos ter Family Associa tion, the Manitoba Child Care Association, the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization, and the lndian-Metis friendship centres. In fact, there have been four organizations .and kinds of organi zations that have gotten most of the attention, because we believe they are the ones whose funding should have been kept on, and it would have been fair and equitable if they los1 1 0 percent, or whatever it is-we find out tomorrow-that all organiz ations are probably losing, that they should have shared the pain with everybody else but not been eliminated.

If the government was loo�:ing to eliminate, they should have looked elsewhme. [interjection] The member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) reminds me about corporati ons. I have said several times in Budget Debate that I would like to see this Mini�1ter of Finance go after the federal government to clc>se some of the loopholes at the federal level. One good place to start would be the federal trust tax breaks. We know it was a form er Lib eral gov ernment that put in a 21 -year rule so that private family trusts were not taxed for 21 years. Now the federal Conse rvative government is perpetuating that huge tax loophole.

How much money are we talking about? Well, we do not know. The fedetral government either does not know or is not telling us. How many of them are there?-22,000 of thE•m. [interjection] Perhaps the government House leader does not want to hear about this, but the Phyllis Bronfman private family trust rose in value from $1 5 million to $70 million dollars between 19 42 and 19 69, and estimates of the total amount vary from $40 billion to $70 billion. So here is an estimate of $40 billion to $70 billion that is not being taxed at all. So as these gov ernment members are saying, where are we going to get the money?

How are we going to pay this? Well, I woul d like to hear them say just for once, well, we intend to sit down with the federal Minister of Finance and ask them to close some of these loopho les, the corpor ate tax loopholes and the family trust loophole and capture some of that revenue and share it with the provinces. [inte�ection) Well, the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) asks a very good question. How much money is there? Well, if the Deputy Premier would like to read Linda McQuaig's excellent book Behind Closed Doors, he would find out what some of these tax loopholes were costi ng in terms of expenditures.

I believe the book was published about 19 86 and most of her figures are 19 84, and we are talking bill ions of dollars. We are talking approximately $25 billion. We are talking enough money to almost wipe out the deficit in 1984 at the federal level. So the money is there, but the willingness is not. For example, the top five tax loopholes at the federal level cost about $6 billion. One of them is the entertainment tax deductio ll--$1. 1 billion. I ac tually talked to a business friend about this tax gift to business people, and I said, do you use this tax ? He said, well, I used to.

I used to buy subscription tickets to Jets games. I used to buy four subscription seats to every Jets game, but he stopped using it. Instead, what does he do? He takes his wife out for dinner once in a while. Well, I do not think that is a legitimate use of the business entertainment deduction. [inte�ection) Well, the minister will always use the fact that it emplo ys people. Well, so do the 56 organizations that you eliminated funding to employ people, lots of them. What we are doing is, we are putting together a list of how many people those 56 organizations employed.

That is quite helpful research, to know the effects of this govern ment's policy, to know how many people are being laid off, because when people are working, surprise, surprise, they are paying income taxes. When they are not working, many of these people are going to be col lecting social assistance. I know some of these people who are losing their jobs at the friendship centre and Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization, and I doubt very much that they are going to find alternative employment. Actually, Mr. Acting Speaker, we are really quite grateful to the government for bringing in Family

April S, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 35 Services Estimates so early, because what we are doing is, we are receiving a lot of phone calls. We are receiving a lot of letters, and very poignant letters, I must say, on a daily basis on the effects of these cutbacks. These are not people from the inner city. People from the inner city sign petitions. They phone their MLAs. People from the suburbs, in my limited experience, are much more likely to write letters. These letters are extremely eloquent.

In fact, I am going to have to look this up, because I wish I knew which constitu ency this letter was from . The address is Culr oss Bay, Winnipeg, R2C 4E2. I do not know what area of the city that is, but I am going to find out because we have an excellent letter here. [interjection] This letter is from Transco na. I will have to copy it to my colleagues from T ranscona (Mr. Reid) and Radisson (Ms. Cerilli).

The letter is regarding the cut of the $1 00,000 grant to the Association of Com munity Living Manitoba and this person writes to me, ac tually writes to the Minister of Family Services and sent a copy to the Leader of the Liberal Party and to myself and to the Association of Commu nity Living. This letter is about the cut to the grant and how it affects their family and how their family has benefited because they have a son who is 11 years old and is autistic, and talks about the very helpful services being provided by the Association for Com munity Living.

I received another letter today regarding the same organiz ation. I am going to be asking the minister, how did he respond to this individual, and what do you say when someone writes about the very helpful service that is being provided by the Association for Co mmunity Liv ing? What do you say to this individual who is writing to you as the minister? * (1 51 0) Mr. Ac ting Speak er, we are really quite grateful tha t the Minis ter of Fam ily Se rvices (Mr.

Gilleshammer) announced the cut in funding to 56 organizations and that the government House leader tabled the Family Services Estimates, because it means that we have had a chance to study them, and it means that organiz ations out there have received letters saying that their fees are going up or the rates are being cut or that there is no funding to the organization, so now people are respondi ng. We are getting the letters and we are getting the phone calls about the effects on people. We are not getting phone calls from the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents, I can tell you that.

I have not had any phone calls from teachers or trustees. What we are getting is people who are on student social allowance saying: What am I going to do? How am I going to stay in school? I cannot go home. It is the Min ister of Fam ily Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) who is suggesting that some of these young people go home, not myself, as the Premier (Mr. Filmon) indic ated in Question Period tod ay.

We will get out Hansard and we will find where the Minister of Family Services said it on the record that these young people should go and live at home. [interjection] The minister is referring to something I said on CJOB, I believe. I am sorry that I did not hear it. I know I taped it on Friday. That may be true to a very small number of people, that some of them may be able to go home. But what I am told is that the vast majority are not able to go home, that many of them cannot go home, that some of them come from abusive home situations and it woul d be inappropria te for them to go home.

So I would hope that the minister would not be urging these young people to go home. We know what is going to happen. We know that they are going to end up on municipal assistance in the city of Winnipeg where in order to be emplo yable they cannot be going to school. I think it is a shame that they are no longer able to continue with their education and improve their job chances. Everyone in this House, I believe, is waiting for the economy to recove r, waiting for employment to pick up again.

I believe that is the desire of all of us regardless of party and the desire of all Manitobans, that we want to see the economy recov er, we want to see people employed, we want to get people off social assistance. When that happens, when the jobs come back, we need people who are trained, we need people who are educated, and we need people who are employable. If we do not have that, then some of those jobs are not going to be filled, or they are not going to be filled with people who are as well qualified or as well trained as they should be, and that is a shame.

Many organizations have now contacted us and told us what the effects are on individuals in their organization. The foster family associat ion , for

14 36 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 example, are saying that they are not going to accept any more children as part of their protest, and the minister says, well, we will find foster families for those people. I do not believe that they will be V4�ry successful in that, especially since they are giving less money to Winnipeg Child and Family Serviice agency, so they are going to end up in group hom4�S.

In fact, they are going to cost the governm4mt more money because parents are now getting a per diem-1 do not have the figures in front of me, but it is much less than what it would cost in a group home. A group home in Winnipeg could easily�� a hundred dollars a day, and probably you could support four or five children in foster families on-[interjection] I am glad that the minister has those figures. [interjection) Yes, the Liberal Family Services critic says, ask what it costs in St. Amant Centre, and, of course, it is much, much greater than even a group hom e.

The child in foster care is $16. 23 a day, and the Foste r Family Association says what about the children who are ending up in hotels and mote ls. They estimate that cost is at least $220 a day when you add up mot el, food, child care salary and caregivers' food , $220 per day. In fact, Mr. Acting Speaker, I do not think that the gov ernment has thought through many of these changes. I do not think that they are well thounht out at all. In fact, many of the things that they are doing contradict some of the good things that the minister has said.

For example, the minister said on foste r parenting on October 18 , 19 90: "It has been said that foste r parents are the backbone of the Child and Family Services system and I believe this to be true." He also said: "This is also a time to salute the work of the Manitoba Foste r Family Associa�on which maintains a high level of excell ence in the delivery of service and support to foster parents through training and education (ing) parents." On May 9, 19 92, on training, the minister S€1id: "We'll make every effort to work with the Manitoba Foster Family Association to see that training is provided." So what did he do?

They were receiving $1 8 .. 23 a day for a child under 10 and $19.14 for a child 10 to 18 , and the minister reduced that to $1 6.23 a1nd $1 7. 14 a day, and the association budget of $308,000 was wiped out. I talked to people who had been involved with the Foste r Family Associa tk>n, and they said it provided a very valuable service to them. One of the things that I was unaware of was that many, many people who volunteer to be foste r parents are charged-there are allegations of abuse. Where do they turn? I mean they are being investigated by the Child and Family Services agency.

They do not want to tum to the same agency for support and advice that is investigating them, and so in the past they turned to the Foster Family Associa tion. Now that association may well be gone because of this cut. Those parents said to me that, if it was not for the Foste r Family Association, they never would have survived the allegations of abuse. The numbers are going up and up every year. It is becoming a thankless job.

Why would someone want, unless they had a very big heart and they were very, very generous, to take a foster child and then to be accused of abusing a child as a result of being a foster family? I think society owes them a great debt, and at the very least we owe them enough money to provide adequately for the children that they are foste ring and not to cut back on it. pnte�ection] The member says, they had enough. The Foster Family Association was renegotiating a new contract , and they had a paper all ready to sign. They were waiting for the government to sign, and what happened?

They did not sign the new deal. They reneged on all the negotiations and are giving the families less money. An Honourable Member: How much is enough? How much should be given? Mr. Martindale: Mr. Acting Speaker, I am asked, how much is enough? Well, as far as I know, many of these organizations were satisfied with the rates that they were getting or they were negotiating for new rates, and what happened was they got a reduction. They may have been saying this is not enough, but they would at least liked to have been consulted instead of which they had the rug pulled out from under them. Mr.

Acting Speaker, there are many issues in the area of social allowances that I could get into. I am sorry that I did not have Hansard, so I could go into more detail on the minister's answers in Question Period today, because I think he did not answer my questions. I will have another chance later to address that.

April 5, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 14 37 I would like to conclude now my remarks on Bill 20. Thank you. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Is the House ready for the question? * (1 520) *** Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Acting S peaker, it is not my intention to disrupt the discussion and debate on Bill 20. What I am seeking now is leave of the House to speak on another bill, particularly Bill 22, which is The Pub lic Sector Reduced Work Week and Compensation Management Act. If I were allowed to speak on it, then I would suggest we come back to Bill 20.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Would the House leader have leave to introduce second reading to Bill 22? Some Honourable Members: No. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): No. Leave is denied. * * * Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Acting Speaker, we are prepared to speak on Bill 20, which has been through the Order Paper on the proper process. I think it is important that we do follow due process in this House on this bill and indeed on other bills, whether it be Bill 22, which we indeed will get to, a bill which I l'lad the opportunity to very briefly look at earlier. I would point out, Mr.

Acting Speaker, one of the reasons that we have our processes in this House in terms of proper noti ce, proper order being given, is the fact that we, as legislators, have to have the ability to analyze legislation at the various different stages. We are dealing now with second reading. There are a couple of important steps that take place before second reading: first reading, which gives the opportunity to government, following having put the item on the Notice Paper, to give clear evidence of what it is doi ng; also the distribution of the bill, to give members of the Legislature the chance to peruse the bill.

I would note, Mr. Acting Speaker, that we had the opportunity to peruse this bill, and that is important. The same thing with Bi11 22. When we have had the proper opportunity, under our rules, to have proper consideration, we will indeed debate that particular bill. [interjection) I appreciate the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), because I know he is a consistent protector of the rights of members of this House. [interjection] Maybe, indeed, Mr. Acting Speak er, the gov ernment House leader was trying to slip one in on me. I appreciate the minister.

I appreciated, on the previous bill today, the courtesy the minister showed to the members of the House by asking questions on second reading, something that up until recently I never assumed was anything other than the right of members. Whether it is a right or a courtesy, Mr. Acting Speaker, that is, I think, greatly appreciated. [interjection] I appreciate the comm ents from the dean of the House, the mo st experienced member, on the importance of parliamentary proce dure, which indeed is where we are at in terms of Bill 20. An Honourable Member: Where are we at? Mr.

Ashton: Well, we are at the position of dealing with The Social Allowances Regulation Val idation Act. It was introduced by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) on March 25, and I had the opportunity to read his brief introductory comments in which the Minister of Justice said: The intent of this legislation is to clarify regulations under The Social Allo wances Act, and pointed out that policies enshrined in the regulations had been adhered to in practice since the 19 70s and this legislation would ensure the regulations are clearly defined and consis tently interpreted. Mr.

Acting Speaker, the amendmen ts to regulations ensure that incom e from exempt sources will be excluded from a recipient's income when determining eligibility for social allowances in the month that the benefits are received. That is a direct statement from the minister. I think it is impo rtant to put on the record to understand the clear intent of this bill, the principle of this bill, which is what we are dealing with on second reading.

Indeed, the regulations also provide for an extension of the grace period at the discretion of the director of social allo wances for a period not exceeding 12 months in receipt of exempt inco me. The legislation has the effect of applying the amended regulations under The Social Allowances

14 38 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 Act retroacti vely. Its intent is to ensure that decisions made when administering The Social Allowances Act prior to the amendment of the regulations are validated as long as they meet the criteria of the amended regulations. Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, it is interesting to note that once again we are dealing with retroactive legislation. I have made comm ents on the rec:ord on a number of other bills.

The farce of Sund ay shopping where we have a bill that was introduced that will not be probably dealt with for a considerable period of time that now has been subsumed by Sunday shoppi ng-the sequel. We have got the sequel even before the original movie had a chance to run in the theatres. This is making a farce out of our democratic system. We are going to be having hearings on bills 1h at have retroactive impact. What rights does that £live to members of the Legislature?

What rights dcles that give to us if we decide to vote against say lthis bill, a retroactive bill, or bills in regard to Su nday shopping or any other retroactive matter? We are ending up in a situation where this gov ernment on issue after issue is in the position increasingly of bringing in retroactive legislatio ll--'the retroactive go vernment, the retrog ressive­ retroactive govern ment. Dealing again in terms of this bill, the principles very clearly outlined in terms of the introduct,:>ry commen ts brought in by the minister himself, and I appreciated the comm ents of the minister.

He pointed out very clearly this is a retroactive bill. I ask the question to members of this House whether it is in keeping with the role of this Legislature to determine whether a I: ill is passed or not; whethe'r it is in keeping with the role of this Legislature which has, under the parliamentary tradition, the rights under first, second and third readings, the comm ittee stage, where we have the unique distinction of being the only province in Canada which has public hearings on every bill-a public significance, every bill.

I ask, is it appropriate that we also now are dealing increa singly with retroactive legisl ation , the retroactive government's retro gressive-retroactive government? I raise that because that is the first principle I think that has to be raised in terms of debate. I want to deal with the second principle. As I outlined just a few minutes ago, the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) said that the powers enshrined in these regulations has been adhered to in practice since the 19 70s. Well, let us talk about some of the practices in social allowances since the 19 70s, Mr.

Acting Speaker, and the fact that here, on the one hand, this government is saying that it is adhering to practices that have been in place since the 19 70s. Let us look at what they are doing in terms of social allowances. Are they adhering to the practices and the principles that have been in place in this province for the last two decades? I ask that question, because the answer is no.

Whether it be in terms of student social allowances, whether it be in terms of the cuts that are now taking place in terms of the City of Winnipeg recipients, any recipients in this province who are receiving more benefits, additional recognition of the hardships they face, we are now finding the true agenda of this government. You know , let us look at the bottom line here, Mr. Acting Speaker. This government says that it is broke. It says that it does not have the funds.

Indeed, they have run up a high deficit or record deficit in this province. [interjection] But it is interesting, as the memb er for Bu rrows (Mr. Martindale) points out, the interesting thing is it depends on who they are dealing with. Some group s are told we do not have the money. Some groups are told, well, maybe we have some money after all. There is a whole pattern that is developing in this province. Let us look at who in this province is being hardest hit by this government. Have we seen a wholesale cut in terms of corporate grants? * (1 530) The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please.

Could I ask the honourable member to remain a little bit relevant to the bill which is before us, and that happens to be Bill 20, The Social Allo wances Regulation Validation Act. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Acting Speaker, I appreciate your putting your earphone on and I am sure you will hear me many times, as I have done up to now, make specific reference to Bill 20.

I will point out the inconsistencies of this government that brings in an item of legislation that says they are bein g consistent with practices that have been place since the 19 70s, when daily we are seeing that this gov ernment is cutting in terms of welfare and social

April S, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 14 39 assistance, cutting the poorest in our society on a daily basis, and that is something that is as relevant as anything can be in this Legislature. I appreciate your comme nts and I would hope that members opposite will understand the relevancy of pointing out the fact that they are cutting the poorest in our society. I ask the question again. Where, Mr. Acting Speaker, is the pain that is being felt by the corporate friends of the Conservatives? Where is the pain? Are they cutting the grants for payroll taxes- The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau): Order, please. I would refer all honourable members to Rule 30 which states: Speeches shall be directly relevant to the question under consideration or to the motion or amendment that the member is speaking, intends to move, or the point of order. I woul d appr ec iate the assis tance of all honourable memb ers by com plying with the principles and the Rules cited. Additionally, ! would wish to draw to the attention of the honourable members the provisions of Rule 39 which sets out steps which can be taken when members persist in irrelevance or repetition. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Acting Speaker, the cuts that are taking place in terms of social assistance and what this government is doing is directly relevant. I am making specific reference to comme nts that were made by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae). If it was relevant for the Minister of Justice, it is relevant indeed. I appreciate your warnings, but the Minister of Justice said this government has been consistent on social assistance since the 19 70s. That is not true. That is what I am proving right now in my comments. They have not followed the principles that have been placed in terms of social assistance in this province.

We have, in this province currently, the highest rates of child poverty and the highest rates of poverty of any province. That is relevant because quite frankly if anybody understands what is going on outside of this building, that is the most relevant thing the fact we have got so many people in such a difficult situation in this province right now. I heard today the Premier (Mr. Filmon) say, well, Mr. Ac ting Speaker, that is all relative, the so-called statistics. We do not have a problem with pove rty, quoting the Fraser Institute. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I want to deal with the question of poverty as it relates to social assistance in this particular bill because the Premier does a disservice to this House when he suggests that there is anything in the statistics that is misleading that underestimates the amount of pove rty. If the Premier would care to check with Statistics Canada, he will find that the low-income cutoffs are applied in urban co mmuni ties, are applied to rural commun ities, but not to reserves. There is no measurement of poverty on reserves in this province.

I want to transpose that with another thing that the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) should deal with in terms of the reality of this provi nce. The recent statistics from Stats Canada census statistics, which in themselves have always underestimated the number of aboriginal people, showed a dramatic increase in the aboriginal popula tion and the fact that we have the highest aboriginal population as a percent of population in the country. I ask you to transpose those two figures. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) says, these are only so-called statistics.

There is not the problem with poverty in this province that people think there is. An Honourable Member: Not if you redefine it. Mr. Ashton: He is trying to redefine poverty out of existence. Mr. Acting Speaker, that is what right-wing governments have done since they have ever been elected. There was no problem with poverty in the Middle Ages in Great Britain; it was just a matter of relative statistics. I remember the efforts of the Ronald Reagans and the Margaret Thatchers to redefine poverty out of existence.

We have had federal Conser vative members of the House of Commons say, we have got to redefine poverty so it does not exist anymore on the books. Well, the fact is poverty is a reality. I would say the current statistics in Manitoba underestimate the amount of poverty. That is because amongst the poorest in our society are aboriginal people living on reserve. The statistics do not account for poverty on reserves in Manitoba, and we have a higher percentage of aboriginal population. Therefore, if anything, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) should have gotten up today and said, you know, those statistics are bad enough, but the reality is they probably underestimate the degree of pov erty. Underestimate it, Mr. Ac ting Speaker.

14 40 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April S, 19 93 Let us not talk on cyclical, circular terms about redefining poverty out of existence. If the Premier, and if this gover nment, does not think that pove•rty exists, perhaps the Premier should get out of 1his building. He does not seem to wish to do it when anybody is critical of his policies. I was at a demo nstration today on soc:ial allowances. I talked to the people that had beten directly victimized by this government, but )'OU know- An Honourable Member: Did you carry a placa.rd , too? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Acting Speaker, the Minister of Justice (Mr.

McCrae) said, did I carry a placard, tctO? Well, I did not carry a placard, but I support th<�m 1 00 percent. I ask, wht:Jn he has to talk to his people, his constituents in Brandon West, and talk to some of the students who have been cut off student allo wances, whether he will say whether he suppor ts them or oppo ses them. It will be interesting to see that. The reality is the Premier (Mr. Rlmon) today did not have the time to come out of his office to talk to the students on social allowance ..

Is it any wonder the Premier does not know what he is talking ab�Jut when it comes to social allowance in this provi nc:e? I am not saying that one has to have been on welfare or social assistance oneself to understand, but I think it is fairly reasonable to suggest that if one has not been through that-perhaps, the Premier has not, we can assume that-it is not too much to expect he might talk to some people who have gone throlll gh it, that are going through that now and face lthe people whom he was dealing with today.

I remember when Ste rling Lyon was Premiier, when people came to the steps of this Legislature, he had the cou rtesy not only to go and speak to them, but to meet with representatives of lthe organization in his office afterwards. I know that, because I was president of my student union at ·the time. When we protested against Tory policies in education, we met with Ste rling Lyon, and St erling Lyon spoke to us. I ask, Mr. Acting Speaker, is 1his progress?

Is this the reality of the 19 90s that Premiers hide behind media handlers, hide behind scripted news conferences, that they do not get out, do not talk to people, talk to the people who are being directly affected by their cuts, by their policies, by their decisions. I do not think that is acceptable in this province to have lectures in this House from people who do not know what is going on out there and do not even have the courtesy to speak to people who have come to this Legislature, the Manitoba Legislature, to express their concerns.

I realize it is a lot easier to hide in the bunker, to hide in the office. The reality is, though, people are hurting out there. They are being hurt by this governme nt's decisions and, on social allowances, never been mo re obvious. As I said, look at this statement in Bi ll 20, that they are just adhering in practice to what has been going on. Since the 19 70s, there has only been one gov ernment the last 10, 15 years that has cut in terms of program ming, in terms of social assistance. It is this government. You know, Mr.

Acting Speaker, this group of Conservatives is beginning to make Sterling Lyon look like a moderate. Well, maybe I should not go quite that far. Let me rephrase that. I have heard people say St erling Lyon was not this bad. He was bad for people in pov erty, but was not this bad. This government has slashed social assistance for students, and it is slashing assistance because of its so-called standardization of welfare rates across the province for people in the city of Winnipeg and any municipality that dares to pay above the provincial average. I want to deal with the reality of what is going on out there.

You know, in my office I have received many calls from people who have had difficulty even qualifying for existing social allo wance programs, particularly the student social assistance program. I can pinpoin t. I can arrange for the Rrst Minister (Mr. Rlmon) to meet with some of my constituents. I want to explain to you, Mr. Acting Speaker, the scenario that happens to young people, young adults, many of them single parents who are faced with a tough choice. I will give you an example.

I have talked to one constitu ent, a single mother, a teen-aged mother-by the way, this governmen t is also cu tting fundin g for the Commit tee on Unplanned Pregnancy. I think that is relevant in talking about this issue. I ask you to put yourself in her situation. She approached me and she said, I cannot go back home; there is no home for me to go back to; I cannot get any assistance from my parents; they do not want to know me; I want to go back to school. This is exactly what she said to me.

April S, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 14 41 * (1 540) Mr. Acting Speaker, why did she want to go back to school?-because she wanted to break out of the welfare cycle. She wanted to be able to finish her high school education. She wanted to get training, something, anything, because she wanted to make sure that she was not permanently on welfare with a child to support, unable to enter the workforce . She came to me in terms of assistance.

I can outline dozens of cases in my own constituency where people have come and really found themselves in a twilight zone, young people, young adults, receiving no assistance whatsoever from their parents, not receiving assistance from gov ernmen t programs and trying to get an education, often with a child to support. An Honourable Member: Do you want to meet some who have done it? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Acting Speaker, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Mcint osh) says, want to meet some who have done it.

Maybe the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs would like to meet some of the ones who have done it, thanks to the student social assistance program and the support of teachers and friends. Perhaps the minister-{interjection] The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. Could I ask the honourable members to keep it down just a little bit. The honourable member for Thompson has been almost relevant to this point, and I would like him to cont inue. Mr. Ashton: Relevancy indeed, Mr. Acting Speaker, and I thank you. I wish that the minister and I wish the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) would take the time-{interjection] In fact, I wish the minister would participate in debate on some of these issues instead of debating from her seat. It is a lot easier to sit there.