Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 39 (36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-39

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 39- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April29, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosano Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Pion The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Amtiation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2327 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April29, 1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of A. Granger, P. Landro, W. Hacking praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Mining Reserve Fund Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of B. Thompson, D. R.

Habermann and M. L. Wall praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minis ter of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman) to consider immediately restoring the $6 million taken from the Mining Reserve Fund. Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of P. Rodzinski, C. Rodzinski, M. Orestes and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr.

Praznik) to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than 1,000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expensive."; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the rules and practices of the House

2328 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April29, 1998 (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than 1, 000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expensive."; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: No. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS the provincial government has embarked upon a project in which it is closing hospital kitchens and having hospital food transported in from Toronto for reheating; and

WHEREAS this proposal will not improve the quality of food but will cost hundreds ofjobs to the provincial economy; and

WHEREAS on December 8th of 1997, the provincial cabinet staged a photo opportunity for the media in which government MLAs were served chicken breast from a chef flown in from Toronto for the occasion while the actual meal served residents that night was macaroni and peas; and

WHEREAS this proposal will result in more health care dollars being spent on questionable privatization projects; and

WHEREAS in December of 1997, the provincial government was forced to drop a similar privatization scheme involving home care which had been opposed by the clients, families and the public,· and

WHEREAS once again the provincial government without consultation has committed itself to a privatization project which will likely cost taxpayers more money for a poorer quality service, thus forgetting the patients who deserve better care. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms.

PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered

April2 9, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2329 certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger), that the report of the commit tee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Manitoba Builder Bonds Series IV Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I have a ministerial statement for the House. I would like to take this opportunity to announce that, once again, Manitobans will have the opportunity to invest in their province when Builder Bonds Series IV go on sale on May 25.

Builder Bonds Series IV will refinance Series I which matures in June and will be the 1O th anniversary issue of the combination of HydroBonds and Builder Bonds. Builder Bonds Series IV will offer three great ways to save: first, a floating rate bond for a five-year term; second, a three-year fixed rate bond; and third, a five year discount compound bond. Manitobans have embraced the concept of Builder Bonds and HydroBonds as they understand the power of their investment dollars, and they know those dollars stay right here in Manitoba to build a stronger future for our province.

Build er Bonds, together with HydroBonds, have a proven track record, raising more than $2.7 billion for the province and have generated more than $550 million in interest payments exclusively to Manitobans. Today they continue to benefit the province by allowing us to meet more of our refinancing needs right here in Manitoba.

To ensure that all Manitobans have a chance to take advantage of this investment opportunity, the bonds will be issued in denominations as low as $10 0. *( 13 35) I would also like to take this opportunity to thank Manitobans for the support that they have shown through past contributions and to encourage continued investment in the future of our province. Thank you. Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the minister for his statement today on the Builder Bond program and again a way of having Manitobans finance assets that are owned by Manitobans, managed for Manitobans and admini stered by Manitobans. It is worthy to note that the Manitoba Hydro corporation, owned by people in this province, now has the lowest hydro rates in North America. It has the second-lowest hydro rates in the world.

The only building that has ever gone on with Manitoba Hydro to give us these results has been conducted by the party that developed the resources here in Manitoba, unlike the party here that mothballed Limestone. We built Limestone and had it paid for by the Americans. The Premier (Mr. Fi lmon) opposite, when he was a member of the opposition, opposed Limes tone because he had no vision for the future of this province and the future of hydro-electric power here in this province.

We prefer to support builders programs as we have in the past rather than the wreckage program we saw with the members opposite with the Manitoba Telephone System. You will note that when members talk about for the benefit-[interjection] The Premier has established VL Ts; I know that is his vision of the future. Our vision was Lim estone paid for by the Americans.

One would note, when we talk about the benefit of all Manitobans, that it is surely important to know that now, with Manitoba Telephone System, which could have been financed-if there was a difficu lty in financing the telephone system-with Builder Bonds than having the wreckage policies of members opposite.

The telephone system now is owned 80 percent out of this province by people who are not residing in this province, for the benefit of people, and the only way to rebuild Manitoba is to have some of the tools of our economy held by Manitobans through instruments like the Builder Bonds, unlike the members opposite that gave away our telephone system and wrecked a useful utility for all Manitobans. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

2330 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 98 * (1 340) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 33-The Municipal Assessment Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): On behalf of the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Fi nance (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 33, The Municipal Assessment Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifia nt Ia

loi sur !'evaluation municipale et modifica tions correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I am pleased to table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. Bili36-The City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Radcliffe), that leave be given to introduce Bill 36, The City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Ville de Winnipeg et modifica tions correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House and I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. Bill 39-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways (Mr. Findlay), that leave be given to introduce Bill 39, The Highway Traf fic Amendment Act (2) (Loi no 2 modifia nt le Code de Ia route), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message along with the motion. Motion agreed to.

Bill 40--The Domestic Violence and Stalking Prevention, Protection and Compensation and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 40, The Domestic Violence and Stalking Prevention, Protection and Com pensation and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi sur Ia violence familiale et Ia protection, Ia prevention et l'indemnisation en matiere de harcelement criminel et modifi cations correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time.

His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. * (1 345) Bill41-The Life Leases and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Minister of Urban Affairs and Housing (Mr. Reimer), that leave be given to introduce Bi11 41, The Life Leases and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur les baux viagers et modifi cations correlatives, and that the same be now received and read a first time.

April 29, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2331 Motion agreed to. Bill42 -The Norway House Cree Nation Northern Flood Master Implementation Agreement Act Hon. David Newman (Minister of Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the honourable Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr.

Radcliffe), that leave be given to introduce Bill 42, The Norway House Cree Nation Northern Flood Master Implementation Agreement Act (Loi sur !'Accord cadre de mise en oeuvre de Ia nation erie de Norway House relatif ala convention sur la submersion de terres du Nord manitobain), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us this afternoon Mr. Luis Hernandez, Consul General of Peru for Ontari o and Manitoba. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Telephone System Undervalued Stock Rates Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): In 19 96, we repeatedly asked the Premier (Mr. Fi lmon) to table information dealing with the analysis of the Manitoba Telephone System's sale and the information on the analysis on a public asset.

Madam Speaker, just recently the CRTC indicated in writing that the government sold the telephone system for a discount rate. The Premier went on to say that we got this advice from the best people in the brokerage firms that we could. I would like the Premier to explain why, in testimony before the CRTC, Wood Gundy was quoted as saying: at the time of the sale of the telephone system, relative to other Canadian telcos, the stock appears to be undervalued.

Can the Premier explain why they sold it at a discount or undervalued rate, and could he table any analysis to show that the public of Manitoba was protected in this broken election promise? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, we are certainly satisfied with the price that we received for Manitoba Telephone System. An analysis was done by three independent brokerage firms, the same firms, by the way, that have represented Manitoba over the last many decades.

The member for Concordia earlier referred to a project, Limestone, that was financed, as he ref erred to, through U.S. investments and so on. The brokerage firms that led those issues were the same firms that did the analysis on behalf of government, so they have a long-standing record of serving the Province of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba.

That analysis showed very clearly a benefit in terms ofthe sale, a benefit above the book value of the assets, and in terms of the comparison of other assets, other telephone companies across Canada, the selling price was a very fair one, and we certainly were satisfied with the proceeds that we received on behalf of the taxpayers of Manitoba. Again, the price was fair in terms of the value of the assets and the book value of the assets. Mr. Doer: Who is the public to believe, the minister who was in charge of this broken election promise, along with the former minister of the telecom company and the Premier (Mr.

Fil mon) and Mr. Stefanson, or the Manitoba Telephone System whose green sheet, which was produced in evidence, a confidential memo, says: the price earnings ratio and the price-to-book value were both below the average for other telcos in Canada, and the yield exceeded the average, the dividend yield exceeded the average? A statement that totally contradicts what the minister just said to this Legislature. Who are we to believe, the

2332 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1998 confidential green memo or the minister here today who said we got the value of other telcos in Canada, when the opposite is true? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, when the companies that do the analysis look at the value of a company, they look at various aspects, they look at price-to-book value, they look at issues like price to earnings and all of those kinds of comparisons. As I indicated earlier, the value of MTS compared well to many other comparable telcos in Canada.

So, in terms of the value of the company, we were certainly satisfied with the value that was put on the assets of the company. That is quite different from when a share is launched and a share is put out into a market. It is not uncommon for shares to have a discount to them when they are selling to the public and through the market. That is a different issue and a different reference made by people who appeared before the CRTC than the comparisons done by the brokers relative to price to book, price to earnings, dividend yields and all of those kinds of analyses.

Those were done by the brokerage firms, and certainly the ultimate price for Manitoba Telephone System fared well in terms of that kind of comparison. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, it did not fare well for the employees that have been laid off; it has not fared well for the consumers who have had their prices increased; it has not fared well for the capital investment in the telephone system which was reduced by some 50 percent.

Perhaps it fared well for the shareholder s; perhaps it boded well for the chief executives and members of the board, some of them who have become mill ionaires through this, but it has not fared well for average Manitobans who were not told the truth in the election campaign. Information Request Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to ask the Premier: will he agree to table the information that they had, because the green sheet just absolutely contradicts what the Minister of Finance said in this House today that this earning ratio and price-to-book values and dividend yields were both below the national average for other telcos and the yield was expected to be higher? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I am happy to confirm, as I did during my Estimates, that we are prepared to table that inform ation for the member. *

(1350) Manitoba Telephone System Undervalued Stock Rates Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): It took us a few weeks to put together one part of the jigsaw puzzle, that is the sale of MTS and what it has resulted in in terms of key people at MTS, particularly Tom Stefanson and the stock options.

We are now seeing the other part of the puzzle which confirms that pretty well every major broker indicated that this stock was undervalued, whether it be Wood Gundy, who was mentioned earlier; Edward Jones, the stock is undervalued; Levesque Beaubien, an outright bargain; Nesbitt Bums, that stock is expected to settle at a level above its issue price.

Will the minister for MTS now confirm that one of the main reasons key people such as Tom Stefanson are going to be making up to a million dollars is because of the fact that they are able to get in at that cheap price, a floor price of just barely over $14, stocks which today are selling at $21 on the open market? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member opposite obviously does not understand investment or the stock market, because six months after the stock was issued, it still was just running around less than 10 percent above its issue price.

That was a reflection of the fact that markets go up and markets go down. Since that period of time, since the spring of last year, every single telco in Canada has gone up substantially, and in fact MTS has not gone up more than most of them. So what is happening is a reflection of investors driving up the market prices for all telcos, not for MTS in particular. Mr.

Ashton: Madam Speaker, I am wondering if the Premier now, who wishes to put himself forward as an expert on the stock market, can confirm that every major broker indicated prior to the sale that MTS was undervalued, and one of the main reasons that Tom Stefanson and other key people from MTS are going to

April 29, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2333 be able to pocket upwards of a million dollars is because they are guaranteed a price of $1 4.63 . The current selling price is $2 1. They knew right from the start that MTS was undervalued, and they are getting a sweetheart deal that is going to benefit them all the way to the bank. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I think it is important to go back to the CRTC ruling and clarify some of the issues that have been raised by members opposite talking about this issue of a premium for these shares.

I will quote from submissions that were made that they have quoted from before from the Canadian association of consumers, I believe, and the Manitoba Society of Seniors and others that appeared before the commission. It is in the report from CR TC, and it goes on to say: while the new shareholders of MTS paid a premium for their shares over net book value. Further on in the same report by CR TC, again, they go on to say: accordingly, the commission cannot justify a shareholder entitlement for MTS based on any portion of the premium that shareholders paid over book value.

So, again, the rulings from CRTC are perfectly clear that there was a premium paid over the book value of the assets of MTS. As I said to the Leader of the Opposition earlier, that does compare to other telco prices across Canada. So, again, from our perspective, the price was fair for the assets; we were certainly satisfied with the price we received for the assets of MTS, Madam Speaker. * (1 355 ) Mr.

Ashton: Madam Speaker, as a final supplementary: will the minister responsible for MTS, who after several weeks still does not get the real bottom-line issue here that Tom Stefanson, his brother, is going to pocket, because of the delib erate undervaluation of the shares, which everyone including all major stockbrokers indicated- will he now take direct action to stop this rip-off of Manitobans, whether they be the people that owned the company before or the people who pay the phone rates, because they are now basically paying for Tom Stefanson and others getting a wi ndfall profit at their expense? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, we have already indicated that we had professional assistance in terms of the valuation of the company. We have also read comments from CRTC in terms of the valuation of the company and the fact that a premium was paid over book value, which does compare to other telcos in Canada. What the member for Thompson fails to recogni ze-and I am not surprised by it-he has no understanding of how the markets work or how the evaluation of shares works.

If he were to look at telephone companies right across Canada today, he would see that many of them are performing very well on the stock market for a whole range of issues. But, in terms of the valuation of MTS, we certainly were satisfied with the price we received based on the best information that was provided to us by firms that have provided advice to this province over the last several decades when members like the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) were a part of government receiving advice from those very same brokerage firms in terms of issues affecting the finances of Manitoba.

Systemhouse Desktop Services Tendering Process Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Government Services. In what may be the biggest megaproject in 10 years in this province, this government is replacing the 7,000 desktop computers that are made in Mexico, assembled in southern United States, shipped to Manitoba from a Toronto warehouse, and all Manitoba suppliers have been cut out of the process, costing Manitobans over 10 0 jobs. Would the minister explain and confirm this information? Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, you know, as member s probably all well know, certainly within the realms of government, with the multitude of departments that we have and the staff working, the ability to be able to communicate electronically is certainly identified as a need. I do not think anybody would question the fact that we should be able to go with more electronic data transfer within government.

Very simply, the ability to do this was paramount, and we did not have the ability ourselves to be able to handle this transfer over to the electronic data transfer medium, so therefore we asked

2334 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA Apr il 29, 19 98 for an RFP for this service, and at the present time we have Systemhouse that is putting this into place for us. Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, can the minister confirm that the original tender required companies to quote prices with delivery to Toronto, placing companies at a competitive disadvantage, indicating an outright bias against Manitoba companies? Mr. Pitura: No, Madam Speaker, I will not accept what the member has just indicated.

The proposal went out to companies to provide this service for the provincial government, and as a result of the request for proposal and taking a look at it through the regular process that government does with all requests of this nature, it was then decided that this contract would be placed with Systemhouse as they were the qualifying bidder. * (14 00) Cost Analysis Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the same minister is this: would the minister tell the House what this project will cost Manitoba taxpayers, and would he release a copy of the contract between SHL and the government? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): The member asks what the cost will be of converting over to the system. I am advised that because of the fact that as the transition is taking place, and it is taking place as we speak-in terms of estimated numbers, we are talking about an incremen tal cost somewhere in the neighbourhood of around $15 million.

Crime Prevention Anti-gang Strategy Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Min ister of Justice. The minister, who said he has been doing his utmost about the revolving door of bail and who has only to this point damned Ottawa, today made public a memo saying that he has not been doing his utmost. It says to the prosecutors: apply the law. It is a written confession.

My question to the minister is: rather than repeating a public relations exercise that did not work the last time because no additional tools had been given to prosecutors, when will the government start to deal with the threat of violent gang crimes and the causes of this cancer in our communities in a real way? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, again the member for St.

Johns is criticizing a very important initiative that was undertaken by the Crown attorneys, and I want to thank them publicly for the job that they did in reviewing a new aspect of the Bail Reform Act which has only been in force for approximately one year. There have been a lot of concerns about that particular provision, and over the last year the matter has been clarified.

The Crown attorney who wrote the particular memorandum to the other Crown attorneys indicated that this particular provision could be used in order to address a very specific need where the administration of justice may be in disr epute if someone were released on bail. So I want to thank that particular Crown attorney, and I also want to thank the police of ficers who contributed to that discussion with the Crown attorneys. Mr.

Mackintosh: Rather than business as usual, as we understand from the courts, and talking about slowing the revolving door of bail, will the minister do something to stop it by giving more than lip service to the report of the Honourable Ted Hughes that says we need marketable skills and job prospects for those marginalized Manitobans to stop people from getting involved in gangs in the first place? Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, I know that our government is committed to approaching this issue under a variety of headings. We believe very strongly in the issue of suppr ession.

We believe very strongly in the tool of prevention, and we believe very strongly in the tool of partnership. All three of those aspects are a very impor tant part of our overall criminal justice system. Now under the heading of partnerships, we also partner with the business community to ensure that people who do not have marketable skills find places to work. I know that one of the recent announcements with respect to the call centre that is being put

April 29, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2335 downtown is one such example where people who may not have marketable skills for every type of a job at least find an opening to get into that job market so that they can become positive contributing members of society. I believe that they want to do that, and I believe that our government, and I know our government is committed to providing them with those opportunities. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, if the government is truly committed to prevention, why did it cut all funding to the friendship centres in Manitoba?

Why did the minis ter close down the Night Hoops basketball program in the north end? Why did it tum its back on the closing of the north Y? Why has it cut Access and BUNTEP? Why has it cut funding to foster parents, Madam Speaker? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I totally reject the kinds of comments that the member for St. Johns has been making. In fact, the British Columbia NDP government has sent its officials here to look at our youth sports camp to see why they are working as weiJ as they are doing.

In respect of the issue of prevention, one of the things that I want to say is how supportive this government has been of police. Back in 19 85-86, the provincial government only contributed 60 percent, a sizeable contribution, and yet, that in fact amounted to $26 million. Today, Madam Speaker, for the '98-99 budget, the provincial contribution is $52 million and that represents an increase of 8.5 percent over last year. That is one aspect of where we are supportive of prevention issues. Court System Independent Review Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Justice.

Today I spent part of the day over at the Provincial Court Buildin g, and it was in essence to share with some individuals a press release that the Minister of Justice issued today. I think that the Minister of Justice is hitting a part of the problem. The feedback that I was receiving, overw helming feedback, is that it is time-and we have to respect the need for an independent judicial system-but the time has been too long in the sense of government not fulfilling some sort of public requirement in terms of a judicial review.

My specific question to the Mini ster of Justice is: is this government prepared to have an independent review of our courts, in particular, our judges? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I think the member raises an excellent issue, because I know I had occasion to talk to his father who spends a lot of time reviewing the court system. I had a very interesting talk with him. In fact, he brought a lot of good points to my attention. So I guess, like father like son, he is raising these in the Legislature in a very timely manner, and I thank him for that.

I note that the Albe rta government has instituted a review of the judicial appointment process and the whole concept of judicial independence, and I think it is a timely inquiry in Alberta. I am looking forward to seeing the results of that particular inquiry. I think much of what they will learn there can be considered here. So I am looking forward to the results of that particular inquiry. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, will the minister acknowledge, with respect to the individuals that I have talked to, there is a great need for us to have that independent review?

It does not have to be professionals per se, but we do need to review the issue of our judges. Will the minister make that commitment to do that? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, what I can commit to today is that we will continue to review all aspects of the justice system, whether it is issues of bail, whether it is issues of other policy initiatives that need to be undertaken, issues like urban sports camps, and, yes, the issues of the judiciary. We will continue to monitor that entire situation to see what needs to be improved.

Now, specifically with the judic iary, I want to say that, generally speaking, our judiciary here in Manitoba is comprised of very, very fine individuals; however, I know that from time to time there are issues that arise,

2336 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 98 and my staff continues to monitor that. Should there be a specific need for any type of a public inquiry into any aspect, my staff will review that and make recommen dations to me as well. Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister then indicate to the House when the government sees itself in a position in which we can strike an independent review? Because, when we see the press release that went out today, it is a step forward, but you are really missing the most important point, and that is this particular independent review.

When can we actually see a very positive step towards that? Mr. Toews: In view of the Supreme Court of Canada's decision in respect of the payment of provincial judges, they made very clear statements and very broad statements about what judicial independence means. What we need to do is to see how the application of that particular judgment goes over the next period of time. So I think at this time it is prem ature to look at any kind of inquiry. I know that my colleague the Minister of Justice in Alberta has other very pressing issues that prompted him to proceed with an inquiry as to the appointments' process.

That again is something that I know our province was a leader in and also issues such as whether judges should be appointed for life or simply for terms. That is one of the issues that my colle ague in Alb erta has been concerned about and indeed has communicated with me. I look forward to seeing the results of that inquiry. * (1410 ) Grain Transportation Short-line Railways Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, last night Justice Estey held public meetings on the grain transportation and handling system.

Although there was a very small group of people there, they expressed very well their concerns about the transportation system. One of the ma jor concerns was the problem of operation of short-line railways, and given that the primary objective of the branch line abandonment provision of the Canada Transportation Act was to promote short-line railways rather than to discontinue services, in reality this is not working because railway companies are retaining control of key sections of the railway lines that make it difficult for short lines to operate.

I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation if he has made contact with the federal Minister of Transportation on this issue. If he has not, will he contact them to ensure that the problem with the Canada Transportation Act is corrected so that short line railways can operate in this province? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Last week the four western provinces met with Judge Estey and talked about all the issues around the grain transportation review, and clearly Mr. Estey has found out that this issue is a lot more complex than he might have first thought.

I think he has a good handle on all the issues from all directions and will probably be challenged to come up with the appropriate recommendations by the end of December. That is a pretty short time frame. With regard to short lines, certainly the Province of Manitoba strongly advocates the use of short lines to bring grain to the main lines. We have certainly passed

an act to facil itate that process, and we continue to work with, as the member had mentioned, the federal minister and the railways to try to identify the opportunities that exist for short lines. Clearly the Hudson's Bay route was certainly the best short line that we have been advocating that has happened in Manitoba and parts of Saskatchewan, bought by OmniTRAX, and will function as a very effective line in Manitoba for movement of goods to and from the Churchill port. Port of Churchill Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): The other issue that was raised, Madam Speaker, was the opportunity to save farmers' money by using the Port of Churchi ll. I would like to ask the minister why, in his presentation that he made to Judge Estey, he did not even offer Churchill as an alternate route to offer some competition to the mainline railways so that farmers could save money and get their grain to port cheaper. Why did you not make that offer in your presentation?

Apr il 29, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2337 Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): All ports have been discussed in the process. The joint submission has covered all the ports, and clearly advocates of Chur chill bring forth the cost effectiveness of it and nobody disputes that. So it has been recognized and presented, and I clearly indicate that Chur chill will play a much greater role in grain movement in the future than it ever has in the past, because now we have strong advocates operating the port and the line as opposed to what was the case in the past.

Comprehensive Review Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): I would like to ask the minister what he meant by his statement where he said, and I only quote part of it: modifications have only made the system more cumbersome. A fundamental different approach is needed, not merely some tinkering around the edges. Is the minister saying the line abandonment we have seen in this province is just tinkering, and he wants to see more line abandonment in this province? What kind of tinkering are you proposing? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I am not sure what direction the member is trying to go, but the statement means the grain review as a whole. We think that there are a number of issues in grain transportation as a whole that must be addressed, not just tinkering on this little -issue and that little issue. We want, as four provinces, competition; we want accountability; we want increased efficiency; and we want more dollars back at the farm gate. That is what we mean by comprehensive review, not just tinkering.

Everybody, every province, is on side with greater accountability, greater efficiency and more money for producers at the end of the day. That is what we mean by comprehensive. Students-at-Risk Report Government Action Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Yesterday we raised some issues raised by the study that the government itself raised concerning students at risk. This was an independent study which brought together 18 focus groups as well as three of her own staff, three groups from her own ministry.

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister, relating to this study: how can the minister ignore the clear loss of confidence by educators when all of the groups, including her own staff, agreed that Manitoba Education and Training should try and repair the breakdown in communication and trust and listen to the field? Is this not a clear vote of nonconfidence in this minister and her policies? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): I thank the member for the question because it does give me an opportunity to clarify for the House here and for others who may be listening what this study was about, what we hoped to gain from it and what we are doing with it. The member speaks about this as if it is something like the Roblin commission, when in fact it was simply part of the ongoing consultation that the Department of Education does on a regular basis with the field.

In this case they are talking to eighteen 1O -m ember groups of people who are working in the schools, getting their perspectives. They came back with a whole series of the thoughts and ideas and feelings, some of them contradictory, some of them not contradictory, all of them worthy of examination. They came back with essentially seven thoughts of things they would like us to do, all of which we are in the process of doing. For example, they indicated that they needed an integrated community and service agency approach, which we have put in place.

They talk about needing to get into early childhood development to help schools, which we are doing. We have many examples of what we are doing there, and I will continue with the next question. Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, how can the minister explain the fact that the groups have identified that there is widespread belief across the whole province, including her own staff, including teachers, principals, administrators, superin tendents and the publi c-that there is widespread belief that the provincial public policy and best interests of students at risk are moving in opposite directions?

2338 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 98 Mrs. Mcintosh: Of course, the member is not correct in her

preamble because she again is talking as if this is widespread consultation with the public, a Ia the Roblin commission, et cetera. This was approximately 18 0 people working in the field; the workers in the field asked for their perceptions. It is not the broader public, or they are not formal consultations, and they are very direct in how they feel. Some of the results are contradictory as I say. Some are asking for solutions that were in place in other provinces, saying why rein vent the wheel. Others are asking for made-in Manitoba solutions, directly contradicting each other.

Simi larly, you will see coming through the particular concerns of the workers, which I am not saying are in contradiction to the needs of the students or the wider public, but they are the workers' concerns, and we are interested in them. But their concern with exam results, for example, was no one wanted the publication of exam results because they feared that teachers might be blamed. Of course, that is not the purpose; it is not the perspective that others might take on those issues. So she is leaving a direct-[inter jection] I will conclude later. Ms.

Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, my final question today is to the minister concerning this report. This is clearly a massive condemnation of the minister and her policies from all educational sectors. Would she admit now that her priorities are her political agenda and not the needs of students, which is clear in her role for the past three years? * (1 420) Mrs. Mcintosh: As I say, the department consults regularly with workers in the field, with parents, with others. This is with workers, and they have given seven recommendations, all of which we are either in the process of doing or have done.

So, in the final analysis, despite the differing opinions that were held in the report, the conclusions they came to fall in line with a lot of what we are doing. This report confirms exactly what we have been saying all along about the system, that there are students at risk who require interventions to take them out of the at-risk category, and it is unfortunate that when they were in power, they discouraged this kind of consultation with workers in the field. We encourage it. We want to hear what kinds of problems are perceived by workers so that if there is merit in them, we can begin to address them.

As I say, of the seven recommendations brought forward, each and every one of them falls in line with what we think we can do to help students at risk. Urban Housing Starts Decline Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Housing or perhaps the Minister of Fi nance (Mr. Stef anson).

The government desperately tries to portray the Manitoba economy as being buoyant and expanding, and yet data that we have on urban housing starts-the residential construction industry- now available show a decline, a very sharp decline, of over 23 percent in the first quarter of this year,

whereas while we are declining, the province of Alberta is expanding by 22.1 percent, and our cousin province, our sister province of Saskatchewan, has grown by 34.4 percent. We rank, Madam Speaker, only seven out of 10 provinces. So my question to the minister: if our economy is supposed to be in such great shape in this province, why is the demand for new housing declining and compares very, very poorly with the rest of Canada? Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, the one thing that I have always enjoyed, being in this House, is when the minister-p ardon me, the member for Brandon-[in terjection] Former minister, yes. I beli eve he was a former cabinet mi nister so he realizes the importance of accurate figures and accurate

interpretation of statistics. I am always amazed at how the member for Br andon East can sometimes come up with these. An analysis of the housing starts across Canada and from province to province is done at snapshot intervals. The member must realize that taking out of context a particular time in the analysis of the figures sometimes can put a difference in balance between the various regions and the various cities. If you look at the overall economy and the overall stats, there are some times

Apr il 29, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2339 where there is a levelling off or an improvemen t in the statistics. So, Madam Speaker, I would wait until there is a more finalized figure on the housing starts from various areas of Manitoba and Canada before we make an assumption like that. Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, the figures come out every month, month after month, year after year.

Will this minister acknowledge that our seriously declining real wages in this province, together with a very serious loss of population to other provinces, including Saskatchewan, Alb erta and B.C., are contributing factors to this abysmally low level of urban housing starts in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, we will accept no such thing. Again, I think the member for Brandon East, as he does on occasion, is being quite selective with his statistics.

I encourage him to look at the whole issue of housing starts over the last short period of time, because if he looks back at 19 97, the growth in urban starts here in Manitoba was 33.9 percent, the second highest in all of Canada and well ahead of Canada's growth rate of 21 percent. Those are the facts for the year 19 97. To date, we have three months' data, and the member is right that for the first three months' data there is a decline. But what I point out to him and I encourage him to watch for is that the current CMHC forecast is projecting a third consecutive year of strong gains for Manitoba.

They are projecting a gain of 11 percent which, if that is accurate, will be the second-best performance in all of Canada. That is the projection coming from CMHC, not from myself. So 19 97 was an excellent year. If you look over the last few years-in fact, out of four of the last six years, this province has exceeded the national growth rate here in Manitoba in terms of housing starts. Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, will this minister acknowledge--or the Minister of Housing (Mr.

Reimer )-that the housing starts today-and he has quoted a number of figures-are indeed a very small fraction of what they used to be under the previous government in the 19 80s? It is only a tiny fraction. Will he admit that today we only have about a fifth or so of what we were experiencing before this government came into office? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I have just given the member for Br andon East the facts in terms of how Manitoba is comparing on a national basis in terms of housing starts: four out of the last six years we are exceeding Canada; last year's growth rate, the second best in all of Canada, exceeding the Canadian average; the projection for 19 98, again, to be the second best in Canada, exceeding the national average. I encourage the member for Brandon East-because I know he takes an interest in economic statistics-to look at all of the economic indicators.

Manitoba, in March of this year, at 5. 2 percent, the lowest unemployment rate in all of Canada right here in this province, a record number of Manitobans working here in our province, amongst the best growth in export sales, amongst the best growth in manufacturing shipments. I could go on and on, Madam Speaker, but everybody in Manitoba, including the people of Charleswood, knows that Manitoba's economy is performing very well today. The only person who does not recognize that is the member for Brandon East. I am certainly prepared to give him the data and a lesson.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Myrna Driedger Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Vital, with a member's statement. Mrs. Shirley Render (St. Vital): Madam Speaker, the people have spoken. Their words were resounding and leave no doubt as to the support our government's direction has achieved with Manitobans. Yesterday

2340 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 98 was the Charleswood by-election. The people of Charleswood, who have been well served in the past by their elected officials will see this tradition continue with Myrna Driedger. A CEO of Child Find Manitoba and having 23 years experience in the health care field, I have every confidence that Myrna will be an excellent addition to the Manitoba Legislature. I think it is important to note that Myrna Driedger received 53 percent of the votes cast. Our government has the confidence of the electorate of Charleswood to continue building a province of opportunity.

Through continued balanced budgets, our government will reflect the priorities of Manitobans. Madam Speaker, shortly our newest member will join all of us in the Legislature, and I am sure all of us wish her all the very best. Thank you. * (14 30) God Save the Queen Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I would like to read a poem that was sent to me by Emile Clune. It is in regard to the God Save the Queen issue.

"Take heart, take heart all teachers, there is hope for education/Now Linda Mac has plans to save the younger generation/While proving she does not deserve a wimpy reputation/When the P.M. was in Winnipeg some students climbed on stageffhis terrified poor Linda and put her in a rage/But it seems that we misjudged her when she made that little scene/Though she wouldn't save Jean Chretien, she will fight to save the Queen/She is out there bravely facing desperado groups in schools /Who have disobeyed the law for years and broken several rules/But thanks to Linda's courage and her fortitude as we liN oung voices sing "God Save the Queen" before the final bell/Now students all across the land are standing to attention/ (The fact our health care is in a mess I guess we shouldn't mention)/ And Manitoba teachers, overworked and underpaid/Agree that Linda's noble act has put them in the shade/Ride on, ride on brave Linda, how ungrateful we have beenffhough you didn't save Jean Chretien, Thank God you saved the Queen." Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Rural Forum Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): I am not going to be quite as eloquent, but I am not going to read either. So I think we should ask the honourable member to table the presentation that he just made. I find it interesting. I want to rise today, Madam Speaker, to invite all the people of this Legislature to the Rural Forum in Brandon. This is the sixth year in a row that Manitoba will be sponsoring its products at a forum and a demonstration of what Manitoba manufacturers and processors can in fact achieve if they are allowed to, within an economic setting, grow and prosper in this province.

Many of the rural industries that function in many of our vil lages and towns in rural Manitoba are going to be there not only displaying and demonstrating their wares but talking about and talking to each other about the possibility of expanding the industries in rural Manitoba. Value-added production is becoming not only the verbia ge that was used a number of years ago but is becoming a reality. Many in the farm community are becoming quite involved in the processing industry and the manufacturing industry. Small businesses, as we all know, remain the strong cornerstone of our rural economy.

Our economic base has been strengthened because of what people and the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) have done to demonstrate our will as a government to ensure passing not only legislation, regulations that will allow and enable, from an economic standpoint, our rural businesses to prosper and flourish and thereby employing many of our younger people and seeing the growth expand in our rural communities. So, Madam Speaker, I invite all of you to come out and taste the food, taste the experience, talk to your friends and talk to your neighbours about the greatness of Manitoba.

Community Crime Awareness Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I was pleased last night to attend what could best be called a neighbourhood watch revival meeting in the constituency of Osborne. Last night, 350 residents of

Apr il 29, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 234 1 Riverview and Lord Roberts came to the Lord Roberts School in order to attend this meeting. Clearly, all these citizens are concerned about safety, they are concerned about their homes, and they are certainly concerned about their families and communities. Everyone at this meeting had a story to tell. Either an individ ual had personally been a victim of theft and vandalism or else knew somebody in the community who had suffered theft and vandalism.

Clearly, this meeting hit a chord, and I think the numbers make it clear that it was an impor tant meeting and provided a focus for the community and for our citizens' frustration and anger. We were pleased last night to be joined by Mr. Tom Hi dson, president of Citizens For Crime Awareness, District 6 North, and we want to thank Crime Awareness Officer, Constable Graham Campbell for his educational address, his detailed remarks on safety, on criminal activity, on prevention, on deterrents and on scams. The constable discussed the CAT program designed to combat auto theft and general antiauto-theft techniques.

He provided advice on personal security and on safety. Constable Campbell did a thorough job, and we were all enlightened and educated. I want to thank, too, Madam Speaker, the community organizers of this meeting. Laura Karbyson, Arlene Mason and Jackie Jeffkins were tireless in their work and planning, and they plan to continue their work in the future. Fi nally, I want to congratulate all the residents of Osborne who attended the meeting and made a clear commitment to reclaim our community, to protect our famil ies, our homes and our neighbourhood. Urban Housing Starts-Decline Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would like to continue on the discussion we had about declining housing starts for a moment or two and try to get the government to realize that we have a very serious situation on our hands when our residential construction industry is lagging behind Saskatchewan, it is lagging behind Alberta, it is lagging behind the country as a whole. As a matter of fact, we rank only seven out of 10 , and I am talking about the latest information we have, which is the first quarter of 19 98, compared to the first quarter of 19 97.

It is very interesting to ask yourself: why are we suffering in terms of declining residential housing starts. There are various answers, one of which of course is the loss of population from Manitoba to other provinces, including Saskatchewan, our sister province, having received a net amount of over 1, 000 Manitobans in 19 97. In addition to that, we have the problem of declining real wages in this province.

All the stats show that we continue to have declining real wages, that is, wages when you squeeze the inflation out of it, and that has to be a factor in people's ability to undertake mortgages for new construction. And why do we have a low real wage situation? It is simply because we have a low wage service sector that is expanding.

In fact, the great bulk of the jobs we are getting in this province are of the low wage nature, jobs that do not have much security, jobs that do not offer many benefits, and the other factor, in conclusion, is the fact that we have probably the lowest minimum wage of any province in our good country. Thank you. * (1 440) ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, there have been extensive discussions between House leaders and individual member s as well, and I believe we have a number of matters to which we agree.

I believe the House will give unanimous consent to these matters. Fir st, to waive private members' hour for Thursday, April 30, that is tomorrow; Monday, May 4; Tuesday, May 5; and Thursday, May 7. On those Thursdays, the understanding is that the House would rise at five o'clock, those being April 30 and May 7. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour for tomorrow, Thursday, April 30; Monday, May 4; Tuesday, May 5; and Thursday, May 7, with the understanding that the House will adjourn on Thursday, April 30, at five and Thursday, May 7, at 5 p.m? [agreed]

2342 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA Apr il 29, 19 98 Mr. McCrae: For clarification, I think, Madam Speaker, the House will adjourn tomorrow at five and Thursday, May 7, at 5 p.m. Right, you said that. I would like also to announce that tomorrow mornin g, this is also pursuant to discussions that have been had, the House will have two consecutive private members' hours and tomorrow afternoon we will consider the Estimates in committees of Supply. In a moment, I will ask you, Madam Speaker, to call some bills. I do not think we need any further unanimous agreement, or do we? No.

So for this afternoon, I would ask you to call Bills 30, 4 and 19 , and if those matters conclude this afternoon then the bills could be called in the order they are printed on the Order Paper. Madam Speaker: Just for clarification, I will reiterate the announcement made by the government House leader regarding tomorrow morning's proceedings, and that is that the House will have two consecutive private members' hours and then will move to Committee of Supply after regular Routine Proceedings tomorrow afternoon. SECOND READINGS Bill 30-The Pharmaceutical Amendment Act Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Environment (Mr. McCrae), that Bill 30, The Pharmaceutical Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ies pharmacies, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the purpose ofthis bill is to amend The Pharmaceutical Act to allow Manitoba to join other provinces in adopting a national harmonization of drug schedules, with the goal of having drug products offered for sale in the same place and under the same conditions in all provinces. A model, harmonized drug -scheduling system has been adopted by provincial pharmacy regulatory bodies across Canada. The system creates three schedules of drugs. Drugs contained in the first

schedule require a prescription for sale and will be dispensed by a pharmacist. Drugs on the second

schedule do not require a prescription, but must be made available only from the pharmacist and must be retained within an area of the pharmacy where there is no public access and no opportunity for consumers to select the drugs on their own. Drugs on the third

schedule may be selected by a consumer, but are to be sold from the self-selection area of a pharmacy where a pharmacist is available to assist the consumer in making an appropriate selection. Unscheduled drugs can be sold from any retail outlet. The development of these schedules has been accomplished in consultation with a variety of consumer and industry organizations, including the Canadian Council of Grocer y Distributors and its member s who have strongly encouraged all ministers of Health to implement these schedules.

This system will be incorporated into the regulations under The Pharmaceutical Act should these amendments be approved by the Legislature. This bill contains a new pro visiOn allowing the Lieutenant Governor in Council to make regulations presc ribing the conditions to be met, including any fees to be paid by manufacturers who wish to have their products considered for designation as interchangeable products in the formulary. This is a companion amendment to the one contained in Bill 13 , also before this House, The Prescription Drugs Cost Assistance Amendment Act, which I introduced in the fall.

This bill will remove the provisions respecting the confidentiality of prescription information, as this has now been replaced by the provisions of The Personal Health Information Act. Pharmacists are described as trustees under that particular piece of legislation. This bill, it is proposed, will replace the current provi sion with prov isions respecting the confidentiality of the infor mation obtained by the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association, its employees and committees in the course of administering The Pharmaceutical Act.

The maximum fine for a breach of this provision, it is proposed, will be set at $50,000, which is the same

Apr il 29, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2343 maximum fine as The Personal Health Information Act. These provisions are the same as those contained in Bill 20, The Medical Amendment Act, which I introduced for first reading on March 11. Finally, Madam Speaker, this proposed bill contains housekeeping amendments that will make minor corrections in the French version of several provisions and will facili tate the operation of the association's complaints and discipline committee. I thank members for their attention, and I look forward to discussion on this bill and the committee portion of the process.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I move, seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 4- The Child and Family Services Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on second readings, Bill 4 (The Child and Family Services Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les servi ces a !'enfant et a Ia famille et modifications correlatives), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), standing in the name, firstly, of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? Leave? [agreed] Secondly, standing in the name of the honourable member for Br oadway (Mr. Santos) who has 36 minutes remaining. Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? Leave? [agreed] Thirdly, standing in the name of the honourable member for Wellin gton. Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to conclude my remarks on Bill 4, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act, as it relates to the office and duties of the Children's Advocate. I spoke last week about the concerns that we have with some of the provisions in the legislation, that while they move forward, may not move forward far enough.

Although we do appreciate the legislation being changed to acknowledge the unanimous recommendations of everyone who has spoken on the idea of the Children's Advocate since its inception here in Manitoba, and that is that the Children's Advocate report to the Legislature rather than to the minister directly. We applaud the government for that change. We think it will be a very positive move and one that the Children's Advocate has recommended as well.

There are, however, some other concerns that we have with this legislation, and we hope that in discussion in committee perhaps we can come to some agreement with the government on some changes. The Children's Advocate has, under this legislation, the authority to investigate, review and report on any matter given to it by the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections that relates to children under The Child and Family Services Act. Now we have said in the House in debate under the original legislation and are saying here today, as well as the member for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale) having said, we think it is very essential for the Children's Advocate to have as broad as possible a mandate in order to effectively deal with the issues that face children in Manitoba. The element of this bill that continues to allow it only to deal with issues that are raised that deal with services provided to children under The Child and Family Services Act does not go nearly far enough. Madam Speaker, these are not just our concerns that are raised on this issue.

Our voices are raised in chorus with hundreds of other people and many organizations in the province of Manitoba and frankly throughout the world when it comes to dealing with issues concerning children.

It is kind of interesting because the government itself in a way recognizes this when it has brought into being the Children and Youth Secretariat, when it has a number of ministries, a number of government departments that respond to and report to the Children and Youth Secretariat or that deal with the Children and Youth Secretariat. * (1 450) There is a recognition on the part of the government that childr en and youth have issues that range across

2344 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 98 the spectrum . They have family services issues, definitely, but not every child that has a problem in this province is under the purview of The Child and Family Services Act. If that were the case the Child and Family Services budget for the province of Manitoba would have to be quadrupled if not increased I 0 times, because there are many children in this province, in every single

section of this province who have problems that should be addressed by the Child ren's Advocate. Many organizations throughout the province have said that. As I have said, the government has in a way understood this concept by the creation of the Child ren and Youth Secretariat, although in the implementation of what the Child ren and Youth Secretariat is actually doing, I think the government is falling far short of the potential.

So we suggest very strongly that the Children's Advocate, in the course of his or her investigative and preventive work, which, we hope, is a major part of his or her job, investigating issues and preventing their recurrence, can and must review the responses of government and agencies to recommendations in reports such as the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the Health of Manitoba Child ren, and the Chi ldren and Youth Secretariat reports. It is essential that the Child ren's Advocate be able to respond as broadly as possible to the issues that face children, and there are many.

These reports are only three of many that this government has. One could suggest that the children-at-risk report that the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mci ntosh) is currently dealing or not dealing with has in it elements that the Chil dren's Advocate should be looking at, issues that affect many children throughout the province, children who never have and never will be under the purview of Child and Family Services.

I think we do children in this province a major disservice when we say that only issues arising as a result of services provided by Child and Family Services agencies are worthy of or can be addressed by the Children's Advocate. We do a huge disservice, because the vast majo rity of the children in this province do not come under Child and Family Services. We should be working towards reducing the number of children that come into care.

One of the best ways we can do that is to actually put forward programs and policies that implement some of the recommendations out of a number of reports that this government has. One of the best ways to do that is to enable and require of the Children's Advocate that he or she respond to those recommendations as part of his or her mandate. Narrowing it down to only Child and Family Services is the wrong way to attack the problems facing children in Manitoba today.

We also believe that another major problem, if not the major problem facing children in Manitoba today in a broad sense, is the fact that they do not have access to services. I will be speaking about some of those instances later in my remarks.

It is clear from everyone we have talked to as members of the Legislative Assembly, in our own constituencies throughout the province of Manitoba, be they parents, people who work in the school system, people who work in the health care system, people who work in the justice system, people who work in the family services system, people who work in sports and recreation, people who are parents, children, everyone. We all know children. We all relate, to one extent or another, with children.

Everyone says one of the major problems facing our children today is that they do not have access to the services they need in order to become productive, functioning citizens of the province of Manitoba who are able to reach their full potential. These problems and this lack of services crosses the gamut, runs the gamut. As I said, we would be speaking about some of those situations in a few moments.

So we also believe that the Children's Advocate must have the authority to ensure greater access to services for children and families across the province by providing services in rural and northern Manitoba, also with attention to the diversity of cultures in Manitoba. So we not only need to look at kids in the city of Winnipeg and around the Capital Region, where, granted, 70 to 75 percent of the people of Manitoba currently live, but we must take into account the geography and the demography of the province of Manitoba.

April 29, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2345 It is very interesting, Madam Speaker, that this government in the almost eight years that I have been a member of the Legislature, this government time and time again tells us and the opposition not to have a Perimeter mentality, to look at what happens outside the city of Winnipeg. I think they do that because, when you look at where the representation comes from, it is true that more of our members perhaps represent the city of Winn ipeg than their members do, and their members- Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): They do not represent the city either. Ms.

Barrett: Madam Speaker, my colleague the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) reminds me of a very important thing. They may on paper represent parts of the city of Winnipeg, but they do not truly represent the city of Winnipeg. That is another issue. But the government benches do have more members that are representative of constituencies outside the city of Winnipeg, south of the northern four seats. So, technically, they do represent probably a higher percentage of the exurban population than the members of the opposition do, but we are much more balanced in our representation.

We have members from the inner city, we have members from the suburbs, we have members from the rural communities, and we have all of the representatives of the North of the province. The rural constituencies are Dauphin and Swan River, and Interlake and Selkirk have rural components to them. [interjection] Oh, this is very interesting. The member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) is suggesting that Dauphin and Swan River are not ru ral constitu encies. I would suggest, Madam Speaker, that is part of the problem. There is rural activity north of No. 1.

It is very interesting that in relation to services for children- Point of Order Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, I think there is a real point of order here and a case of misrepresentation when the honourable member gets up and absolutely misquotes what was mentioned in this House. There needs to be a correction made on the record. My reference was to Dauphin and Swan River, that they were northern communities, and I did not mention the word rural Manitoba. I asked the question whether they represented what part of Manitoba, and I said they represent the rural communities of northern Manitoba.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Emerson did not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. * * * Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, I will not take any more of my time reflecting on the member for Emerson's comments, but I think he made my point.

It is essential that children throughout the province whether they are in the care of Child and Family Services, whether they are in the care of a health care system, whether they are in the tender hands of the justice system, whether they are in school, out of school, or preschool-all children in the province of Manitoba have the right to a full range of services to enable them to live the best lives they can live. If we do not protect our children, we have destroyed our future.

Our suggestions in the legislation before us today is that the changes to the Children's Advocate office do not go far enough in providing those services throughout the province of Manitoba that are essential for children to live healthy, productive, happy lives. I would suggest that in many cases, and I will share with the members some of these situation in many, many, many parts of our community throughout the province of Manitoba, children are worse off than they were 10 years ago. They are worse of f.

In the face of trying to eradicate child poverty, every government in North America and many governments across the world said in 19 89 sign the declaration to eradicate child poverty by the year 2000. * (1 500) In many of our communities and in many sections of our communities, we are further behind in the eradication of child poverty, and we all know the end

2346 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 98 results of that. We see it every day. We see it in the problems in our school system, we see it in the problems in our health care system, we see it in our ju stice system. We see it in the hopelessness that children throughout the province of Manitoba feel today as a result of 10 years of government neglect. The Children's Advo cate should be, and must be, a positive, effective force for change in the province of Manitoba, and the elements in Bill 4, we feel, do not go far enough towards enabling that to happen.

Madam Speaker, the government cannot say that it does not have information to put children first. It cannot say that there is not a plentitude of information, recommendations and programs available for children throughout the province of Manitoba. They are not available enough, but we cannot, as a society, say that we do not know what to do for kids. We know exactly what to do for kids. We are choosing not to do it. The Children's Advocate could be a marvellous resource for enabling our children-as I have said, to put our children first. I am ju st going to put into the record a couple of those suggestions.

One is, in 19 94-and this comes from, and I am the first to admit it, and proudly admit it-the New Democratic Party in Manitoba released a plan for providing services for children entitled putting Children First. It formed the basis of our pl atform for children in the 19 95 general election. The government cannot say that we do not provide positive alternatives. I would like to share with the government today some of the alternatives we put forward first in 19 94 that, should the Chi ldren's Advocate have enough authority, could be implemented tomorrow.

A healthy start program for kids with three components: a targeted, province-wide, prenatal nutrition program. What did this government do instead of targeting prenatal assistance and postnatal assistance? They cut services to pregnant women. They cut services to pregnant women, poor pregnant women. What kind of prenatal care is that? What kind of nutrition is that? Secondly, a province-wide school nutrition program. The one area where virtually all children congregate is the school system.

That is one of the reasons why there is so much pressure on the school system today, that virtually every child connects with the school system if they connect with nothing else. Far too many children connect with nothing else positive in their lives. The schools are an ideal place, if they were well resourced, to provide programming. We suggested a province wide school nutrition program, a very positive, preventive measure that would have excellent results down the way.

If the Children's Advocate had enough authority, the Children's Advocate could implement these kinds of things, or ensure that the government implemented them. Thirdly, in the healthy start program was a recognition of schools and a public, nonprofit day care system as integral components of comm unity-based child health programs. Many, many children in this province connect not only with the school system but with the child care system. If there were enough spaces, many more would-another area where good programming could take place.

We need as well an intensive family life component as part of the health curriculum, recreation ini tiatives such as physical education as part of the core curriculum for all students throughout their public education system. We are becoming a nation of overweight people who do not exercise well enough, who do not exercise long enough, who do not understand the importance of physical education, physical exercise, a physical lifestyle. This, again, has huge consequences further down the road. An expanded campaign to combat fetal alcohol syndrome, and I would add today fetal alcohol effects.

I wiii say that the Children and Youth Secretariat is making some progress in this regard. It is just starting. We put this out in 19 94. Dr. Brian Postl had recommended this prior to 19 94 as well. We are now in 19 98. Four years have gone by, three years since the last provincial election. How many kids in the province of Manitoba in virtually every single constituency in the province of Manitoba are now suffering from F AS and F AE that would not have had to be suffering under these terrible scourges had some of these initiatives been in place? The answer is far too many. One would be too many.

April 29, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2347 Adequate resources for speech and language therapy leading to early detection and intervention of potential communication problems: We have heard throughout this province time and time again of the desperate need for speech therapists. This is an issue that absolutely drives me crazy, absolutely drives me crazy, because this is a real case where we know what to do. We train speech therapists to provide good and ef fective programming and therapy for kids. [interjection] The Province of Manitoba does not train them anymore, but they are trained.

This government elim inated that program. There are still speech therapists in this province who are prepared to work with kids, and in a few moments, I will share some stories about speech therapy problems with the House. But this is one of those problems that should never be a problem. Virtually every kid, if they are caught early enough, can overcome virtually every speech therapy problem. We do not need to have kids who cannot read and kids who cannot hear and kids who cannot talk in the schools. Virtually all of them could be helped if we had the resources.

We need an aboriginal youth health care strategy developed in co-operation with the aboriginal community. What is our aboriginal youth strategy in this province as a result of this government's cutbacks? No more North Y, which helped a lot of aboriginal kids. No more friendship centres, because they were, quote, advocacy organizations rather than service providers, one of the worst things this government has ever done. Cutbacks to social assistance, cutbacks to nutrition programs, lack ofF AS/F AE programming-the list goes on and on. We have an aboriginal strategy.

It is a strategy to decimate our aboriginal community rather than to help it be a strong vibrant part of our society. We need a rural and northern strategy where governments co-ordinate their efforts to identify and address specific health and social difficulties in each region. We need an interdepartmental co-ordination for all of the government departments, as I have spoken about earlier, to keep children at the forefront rather than each indiv idual department looking at one particular segment of a kid or a child.

We need expanded children's safety programs looking at safety issues such as child restraints, health care issues and particularly farm safety awareness.

This is a government that represents the majority of the farming community in this province, and they do not take it upon themselves to deal effectively with a horrible farm safety record, and one of the reasons the kids are faced with safety issues on the farms is because there is not an adequate child care strategy that takes into account the needs of farm families, most particularly during seeding and harvesting, where families are faced with a very difficult choice between leaving their children alone in their homes or taking them with them when they operate very dangerous farm machinery. *( 15 10 ) So these are ju st some of the things that this party put out four years ago and that the government has not dealt with in any real way in the last four years.

I think it is not just my words, Madam Speaker, that give the lie to this government's concern about children and speak to the need for the Chi ldren's Advocate to have more authority and more impact in this province. I am quoting-! am a member of the New Democratic Party child task force which has been going throughout the province the last few months meeting with individuals, anyone who wants to meet with us, and we met with a large variety of individuals. We have met in the North, in the rural communities, and in the city of Winnipeg. Some themes come through loud and clear.

People have been very eloquent in their comments, and it has been quite a learning experience to listen to them and to hear what they have to say and the frustration that they are feeling. I do not have much time left, Madam Speaker, so I will just briefly talk about some of the things that people have said.

One person in Winnipeg said the effects of child poverty are pernicious and debilitating and that we should not be satisfied with before-school breadlines, talking about the abject poverty of children in our society today, and the fact that we even need to talk about breakfast programs in schools says volumes about what we are doing. A young man in The Pas came and spoke with us as part of a group. They have a volu nteer group that is trying to put together a commu nity centre in The Pas,

2348 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 98 something that should be there as a matter of course. He wants a community centre to learn things that he does not know. For example, he had one brief experience with a community centre concept-he is a First Nation young man-and he learned how to make canoes out of birch bark. This may be a very small thing, but it had a huge impact on him because it is going back to his roots.

If he had a community centre in that community that provided culturally appropriate activities, this young man and many like him, not only in The Pas but throughout the province, who are flirting with gangs would not. It was clear. He said it is something that he would not do if he had an opportunity. Another person in Swan River said if youth do not find a good place to belong, they will find a bad place to belong, and that is the genesis that, in a nutshell, says why kids join gangs, because they do not have a good place to belong. They do not have recreation activities.

They do not have bands in schools anymore, because the schools have had to cut back those programs. They do not have art activities in school, because the schools have had to cut back on those programs. We talked to several young people who really like art, who enjoy art and drama and music. The member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) spoke yesterday about some of these young people. All of them were leaving their rural communi ty, not because they want to but because there is nothing there for them, and they do not expect to come back because there is no hope for them if they did come back.

One of the things we could do is provide them with the recreation and community solidarity activities that we need to have. We need to open our eyes and see, open our ears and hear. We need to look at the whole issue of foster care. We need to look at recreation. We need to look at nutrition. We need to look at services like speech therapists. We need to look at the whole child.

Madam Speaker, we as a government-and I speak of us as a government, as all 57 members-as a group have not done that, and it has not been because the opposition has not raised the issues, has not raised the concerns and has not raised many, many positive alternatives. I know the Chi ldren's Advocate would be delighted to work on these issues, work on these concerns, work on implementing these programs that we know exist and that just need a political will to implement. Bill 4 is a good bill, basically, but there are some changes we would like to see.

We are hoping that the government will listen to our concerns, will listen to the concerns of the people of Manitoba, and will make some minor adju stments to Bill 4 that will enable it to be a truly effective piece ofle gislation and will give the Chil dren's Advocate the resources the Children's Advocate needs in order to work for all of our children. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I am pleased to rise today to speak and put a few of my comments on record on Bill 4, which is The Child and Family Services Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act dealing with the Child Advocate.

I think it is a great step forward. We all here know and I hope we all appreciate the work of the Child Advocate Wayne Govereau, who. I am sure, has endured many sleepless nights with some of the tough tasks that he has to endure and some of the sad situations that he has had to deal with families. So I think that the Child Advocate warrants all of our support and our encouragement, and I am glad to see where the responsibility is extended to the Legislative Assembly instead of ju st reporting to the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson).

I would like to make a few comments on the all-party task force that went around to hear some of the submissions that were presented across Manitoba. There was a subcommittee report to the Standing Comm ittee on Privileges and Elections for the review of the Child ren's Advocate. I was glad to see that members of all parties were travelling around, and from the reports that we got from our caucus from our member who travelled with that task force, there were many submissions that were submitted by Manitobans, and were very well thought out and were submit ted by very committed individuals.

I think, as far as I can remember, this is the only all party task force that I could think of besides the all party committee on the constitution change or the one on Canadian unity. I think it is encouraging to see that, and I hope that other issues that pertain to our citizens of the province and any other situations that arise that

April2 9, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2349 deal with our children will be done in an all-party, nonpolitical way. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Also the Fou rth Annual Report of the Children's Advocate, I read through it and the Children's Advocate had many very interesting comments. You could see by reading the report that the Children's Advocate was standing up for children of this province and had the best interests of children of Manitoba when he wrote his report.

It was not a report that was written just for government but for all Manitobans, and in some cases if it meant or seemed appropriate to condemn the government, the Children's Advocate did so. I think that is an appropriate role for the Children's Advocate to make. One of the comments that the Children's Advocate made was pertaining to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

It is also significant that children have rights in Manitoba and hopefully all across all provinces of Canada, because we know in other countries that children-in many countries they do not have children's rights, and a lot of their children are exploited in various ways. You hear of child labour in some countries.

I am glad that we have children's rights in Canada so that we do not see our child ren having to be forced to go into labour when they are a very young age. * (1 520) Because of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and because of prov incial statutes such as human rights legislation, and in several other provinces Children's Advocate legislation of children, our children do have rights. That really distinguishes us from other countries around the world where children do not have rights and where, as a result, they are subject to exploitation and oppression of many different kinds.

I just gave you an example of some children in other countries where they are forced to, because of their small hands and stuff, do labour, manual labour tasks. A lot of them, because the countries do not have the programs that we have, are forced to help put food on the table and help support their families at a very young age. It is too bad because when they are put to work at a very young age, they miss education opportu nities and because of some of the countries' systems they do not have education opportunities as our children are entitled to.

That is something that we as Canadians hopefully all treasure and will always stand up for our children to get the best possible education that he or she could attain. I think that is so important and crucial for the children when they grow up to help fulfill their chosen careers and to fulfill their goals that they have in lif e. Also, the Children's Advocate goes on to say, the quality of care of children in some instances is very punitive in nature as opposed to offering guidance, nurturing and development.

Then he says I do not believe the whole system is all doom and gloom as there are many dedicated, commit ted and caring workers attempting to promote positive and lasting well-being for children and their families. As workers, they are also confronted with many restrictions and limitations as to what they can offer.

So we know that in many cases workers have many, many clients or children in their care, and even though they would like to provide more service to them, such as home visits and counselling and linking them up with resources, the workers on the front line are overburdened as they have pointed out in their brief s to the government. It is no surprise because of some of the cutbacks that we have seen in the area of our dedicated social workers. Sometimes some of the social workers are carrying so many cases that they are spread so thinly that it is hard for them to give adequate care to their clients.

A lot of times it is the children that are impacted negatively. It is not because of uncaring or unskilled social workers, it is ju st that they have been cut back so much that their workload is greatly increased and it is too hard for them to deliver the services that some families require, and the services that some families require to progress to the next level from where they are at. So we are not faulting the social workers or laying blame on the social workers.

They are trying their best with the means that are provided to them by the government of the day and in some cases it is inadequate and in a lot of cases there needs to be more qualified social workers there for the people that need the assistance. In the constituency that I represent, Point Douglas, I deal with many, many cases and many issues that

2350 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 98 pertain to the area of social services on a daily basis. I deal with that on an ongoing base, and it is very hard for a lot of the individuals and residents of Point Douglas sometimes to get the assistance that is required because of some of the barriers that are there now where the social workers are spread so thinly that they are out there trying to assist as many people as they can. When someone needs their immedia te attention, they are so hard to reach.

Sometimes you will phone Family Services to get some information or assistance, and a lot of times the lines are so tied up that it takes you forever to get through to even talk to someone. I called the minis ter's office, it would be about three months ago. I phoned the minister's office. Then I was given the name of the director, and I had made a phone call for assistance for one of the constituents in Point Douglas. I sat on that phone for 35 minutes, 35 minutes, without talking to a human voice.

First of all, I was put on an answering machine and listening to music, and I told the supervisor and director at that time: I hope this is not a normal practice, that is. services that are generated through Family Services today, because that is totally unacceptable, and I explained why.

If you are a young mother or a young parent, whether you are a mother or a father, and there are individuals who are on social assistance who do not have access to telephones in their own homes, and if it is January or February and you are trying to hold a bundled-up child in your hands and you are standing at a payphone in January and February and you are listening to recorded music for half an hour, I do not think that says much for our system. The supervisor assured me that they would check into it. He said: that is not our normal response time.

I really hope that the situation has been addressed, and I hope it was only a one-time incident, because it would be totally unfair to the most vulnerable people that we should be there to assist and give a helping hand up when the need arises. I wanted to share that because I think that we have a good system here in Manitoba, but we could even have a better one if we all work towards that, strive towards that same goal. If it means putting more resources in, I think we have to look at that. We have to ensure that we do have the resources to provide the services for people when they most need it.

I wanted to talk about the services that are provided. Like I said, I have been in contact with the helping agencies. I have been in contact with the minister of staff. I have to commend her staff, her office for the assi stance that they have been providing when I have raised the issue for the constituents of Point Douglas. They have acted very quickly, and they have been most positive in their assistance. I know that the people I have called on their behalf greatly appreciate that but, if it means a review of the whole system to look at where the shortfalls are, where we could maybe move resources around.

I say that in the most positive sense. I am not saying this in a negative sense. I am saying this in the most positive sense, if we could look at moving resources to maybe shore up some areas that need more assistance than others. When I say that you have offices throughout the province, and there are certain pockets in certain areas of the province that require more services than families from Family Services than other areas of the city and other areas of the province, we might just look at reallocating resources to meet the needs that are greatly needed in certain pockets of the province.

I think I would encourage the minister to look at that. I hope the Child Advocate in his role today would look at some of those and make those kinds of recommen dations, because the Child Advocate deals with a cross reference of individuals and I am sure hears a lot of the same stories that I hear from constituents of Point Douglas. I hope that we will continue to offer the best and do the best we can as the government of Manitoba and as the province and concerned citizens.

Manitoba may have the legislative framework which supports the rights and interests of children and their families as envisioned by the UN convention. Much work has yet to be done on the actual implementation of changes to the practice of child welfare in this province. * (1 530) Then he goes on to say: government must remain comm itted to making a social investment on behalf of

April 29, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2351 our children and their families. Sole reliance on the good will of neighbours, social agencies, and the communities is not enough as we prepare for the second millennium. The needs of children and families involved in the Child and Family Services system cannot be isolated from the broader social problems of poverty, unemployment, and family violence.

We all know that all has a connecting link, and it is all intertwined where, if you have high poverty, more than likely you are going to have-and it is not because of uncaring parents or stuf f like this, because they do not have the means to provide the care that young babies and children need. All you have to do is just look at some of the remote communities in northern Manitoba. Go up there and visit some of those families that are living in, say, Tadoule Lake or Shamattawa or isolated communities, and just walk into the stores that are in those communities and you will see.

We all talk about good nutrition is a healthy body, and that is true, but if you are looking at the prices of baby foods, baby formula, the price of milk that babies need and compare it to what we pay down here, in a Jot of cases, it is almost next to impossible for a lot of those families to purchase that on a daily basis.

So we should really look at that, seriously look at addressing that, and look at where maybe more funds are needed for families with young children or babies having increased funding allocated to those families in need to make sure that we raise healthy children, because to me that is a preventative measure that is possible by any government of the day. If we do not do it, then we are going to pay a lot more in the end. As the babies grow and they have poor nutrition, a lot of the babies will be unhealthy children and unhealthy adults with unhealthy lifestyles.

I think if you even want to look at that just on a doll ar-for-dollar basis, it makes the most sense to put the money upfront and have healthy babies and have access to nutr ition that should be given to all babies whether they live in southern Manitoba or northern Manitoba or remote or urban communities. I think that is one area that we have to seriously look at addressing. There have been other examples and other comments that the Child ren's Advocate has made.

One of the areas that he has highlighted as problems in the system, for example, is it seems to be getting harder for this government to adequately acquire or go into negotiations with foster parents, because we are seeing where there seems to be more children, new young children, living in hotels. I saw on TV not too long ago, and I am sure a lot of the members in here saw, some of the children who were being placed in hot els. They had a worker or a guidance counsellor come in and check on them once in a while or even there with them overnight and stuf f, but that is not a family setting.

We hear members on this side, on the other side, and all members talk about the importance of family. If we only even just think back in our youth, there is not one of us in this Chamber today who could not immediately draw upon an individ ual of the family who helped each of us through a crisis at one time or another in our life that we almost hold as our role model. Whether it is an uncle, an aunt or a mother or father or grandparent, that is what family is all about. When you put children in a hotel setting, you are really, really removing totally the whole family atmosphere.

Whether it is in the family setting with foster parents or other families where they are staying, it is still a family setting. I totally disagree with putting children in hotels, because I know that if the work is done on behalf of governments to deal with the issues that are preventing families from becoming foster parents or parents for children who are removed from their immediate family, for whatever reason, and who look at being put into foster homes, like the temporary housing situation, hopefully we could always look at trying to find families first.

I think that is one example that the Children's Advocate has brought to our attention, and I hope that government will view that as a person standing up and putting up a red flag and look at it and maybe look at addressing it. It will not be easy to solve; nothing is that easy to solve. We all understand that. It takes a commitment and a lot of times it takes dollars, but that is the kind of stuf f that we have to look at.

When I heard about the all-party task force that was going around the province and hearing from workers, hearing from foster parents, hearing from parents, hearing from grandparents, I thought that was a very

23 5 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri129, 1998 encouraging opportunity for government and for all citizens of Manitoba to hear from the people of Manitoba and get their views and some of their recommendations that they would bring forward. It was good to see that happen, and the report that came out of it, there are good recommendations in it.

One of the recommendations that came forward was that the Child Advocate report, like I said earlier, to the Legislative Assembly and not directly to the Minister of Family Services, because if that was the immediate employer, sometimes an individual would think twice about making recommendations or making comments that might not be in line with the immediate employer, but with the Child Advocate reporting to the Legislative Assembly and needing, if I remember reading it correctly, a two-thirds majority to be removed, I think that gives the individual a lot more freedom to really express what is happening and to really express recommendations to the Chamber and to the government for improvements to our system.

We have to grow with the times and no matter what the system, it could be the best system in the world, but, eventually, somewhere along the line there is room for improvement. I think that is why the Child Advocate would need the freedom to express and make recommendations of the problems that he or she sees and hears from-sometimes it is the children who would give the direct information to the Child Advocate. It could be the parents, it could be social workers, and I think that it is crucial to making sure that we have the best services and best support systems out there for our children of Manitoba.

I think that is important and crucial. * (1 540) When that task force was travelling around, I was really pleased to see that they went to a community in northern Manitoba, because a lot of times you will see where there are good intentions and because of the costs of travelling to the North and back and hotels and meals, a lot of times the North is excluded from activities and committees that could benefit and could give another meaning to whatever the issue of the day is, because the issues are not always the same in southern Manitoba as they are in northern Manitoba because it is totally, totally a different lifestyle.

You have other costs that are there that are not there if you live in southern Manitoba. If you look at the resource bases, a lot of times you do not have the resources for families or agencies that you have in southern Manitoba. A lot of those communities, well, you could not provide all the services to each and every small community in northern Manitoba, but a lot of those services are available here in Winnipeg because it is a big centre, and the majority of your staff and your directors, supervisors are here in the city.

People have a lot easier access compared to some of the small and remote communities in rural and northern Manitoba. So I was glad to see that the task force took the time, and I was very pleased. I applaud the members of that task force for going to Thompson to hear the submissions that were presented to them. I think more of that could be done.

When I mentioned where the Children's Advocate now reports to the Legislative Assembly instead of directly to the minister, I am sure that this will protect the Children's Advocate to speak out and speak up where necessary and to make recommendations where necessary on behalf of children. The first recommendation of the subcommittee is one that I know that I can totally support because of that, where the first recommendation is that the Child Advocate report to the Legislative Assembly instead of directly. I support that wholeheartedly, because it gives that flexibility.

It goes on to say that, reading from the brief, some of the presenters stressed the need to have the Children's Advocate appointed for a specific term of office in a manner similar to that of Provincial Ombudsman. The legislation addresses that, but it does not go far enough. The legislation recommends a term of three years, once renewable. I know that we believe that this should be increased to five years, once renewable.

The reason for that is that we need to attract the best possible candidates, and if someone is only guaranteed three years or a possibility of six years, we may not get the best possible candidate. It would be much easier to attract someone who is suitable for the job and someone who would have excellent qualifications if they knew that they were going to have the job for a minimum of five years or a maximum of 10 years.

April29, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 23 53 So, if the Children's Advocate that we have today, Wayne Govereau, for whatever reason decides to move on or to cease being the Child Advocate tomorrow, and if I remember correctly he originally, I think, came from Alberta, and that we would have the opportunity to advertise right across Canada and, in that fashion, if we advertise it where you move your family and everything for, it could possibly be three years, where the other way, and a maximum of six years, but if we advertise where the employment opportunity could be for a minimum of five years and possibly a maximum of 1 0 years, I think we would have an opportunity to attract the most skilled applicant that we would be able to find.

A lot of really skilled people, Hhink, would apply for the position of Child Advocate if they had more of a sense of residency in our province. If you are asking to move your family and everything to Manitoba, say, from another province, and if we said compared from minimum three to maximum six or if we compared it from minimum five, maximum of 1 0-if we increase it to those higher numbers, I think we would have a better chance to attract very high-quality applicants if and whenever Wayne Govereau ever left his position as the Child Advocate for the province.

Also, it goes on, where there was a failure to agree on the part of the Children's Advocate and a child welfare agency, that the use of mediation, conciliation or other culturally appropriate dispute resolution services be provided; in another area where the government did not go far enough, that there should be some sort of compliance mechanism.

I agree with that, because what that means is that it is no secret that a lot of the children who are in care are aboriginal children, and where appropriate, if it is culturally appropriate to bring in elders and mediators to help the child go back and integrate into the family and come back again as one with the family, I think we should be pursuing that, and we should be encouraging that.

I really believe that a lot of our elders could play a very important role in those mediations and working with the families to overcome whatever the problem was at that time, the reason for their children being taken away by Family Services. A lot of times, it only takes one instance of that happening for families to make that transition and that change oflifestyle or what have you.

Sometimes it takes two or three, sometimes four or five, but if you have the elders and a lot of the communities working with the family and the child, a lot of times you are able to bring the child back into the family so that way they can be one. When I say that, I say that from some of my experiences that I have seen, a lot of the friends that I have who have gone through the foster care system. Some of them were able to get back and live with their families again after their families changed their lifestyles. That is why we can never, ever abandon our treatment programs that we have for addictions.

A lot of times the individuals who go through addiction programs are doing it when they are at a relatively younger age, and when they see and are able to work with the programs and the counsellors that are there, you see a whole change in the individual and the families of more responsibility and of more caring. A lot of times the children can be moved back into the families, and they do very well, very, very well. I have seen that many times. That is why when we stand and we talk about different programs, I have raised the issue of solvent abuse many times in this Chamber, many, many times.

I will continue to, because that is a situation that is really, really serious where if we do not put the support systems in place and if we do not treat the individuals who are exposed to solvent abuse through peer pressure or what have you, if we do not curb that practice, because that is not something that is reversible, because once you kill off your brain cells you do not grow new ones. It is as simple as that. You do not grow new ones. *( 15 50) So what you have to do is you have to try and help, and if they choose to change that, then you have to try and give the best tools then as possible.

But a lot of the children do that just through curiosity, will do it through curiosity or through peer pressure. So if we can catch the children at a very early age, that is the time to do it. But to catch them at that early age and have no resources for the treatment, then we are just going around in circles. In Manitoba right now, as far as I know, there are only two solvent abuse treatment centres in Manitoba. There is St. Norbert centre, and there is the Sagkeeng

2354 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 98 centre . Those are the only two. Cross Lake has been trying to get one, and I do not know if it is still off the ground or not, I have not heard yet. Cross Lake has been fighting for one, and I think it is warranted that we do have one in northern Manitoba. I think it is so important and crucial that we have a solvent abuse centre. We have addiction for alcohol abuse, and there is a program that is funded through various governments. It was called the NNADAP program . A lot of the counsellors were trained.

The NNADAP counsellors were trained under the New Careers program . What they did was they had two weeks in training and two weeks on the job, two weeks in training and two weeks on the job. It was ongoing for two years. So, upon graduation, a lot of the counsellors were taken right on full time with a NNADAP program. The counsellors were situated in mostly northern communities. I know and I have spoken to and have seen many, many of the NNADAP counsellors in my travels. I have discussed with them the impact and the effects it has had in those communities.

It has been very positive, because it gives an opportunity for an individual when the time comes for you to seek treatment and do something about your life and you want to change your lifestyle. You have someone that you can go and speak to on a one-to-one personal basis. In most cases, it was the trainees that graduated who were hired and employed as NNADAP counsellors and who are people from the communities. So a lot of the people already knew the individuals, felt comfortable, and also they had the resources to recommend or to make arrangements to go to treatment centres.

Like a lot of the treatment centres, you go for 28 days. You go for seven days first to what they call-in some cases, it is kind of like a dry-out period. After that you start your 28-day program. It is a hard program. It is a very, very hard program, especially when you first walk in the door. You almost see everyone. You can go to a total, total strange community, but it is like everyone knows that-well, a lot of cases the way you walk in there, you label your self as a loser. That is how you see yourself .

Then, when you go in there and you have about five meetings a day, you are all given responsibilities, because you need to rebuild that sense of responsibility. In a lot of cases, you are given tasks either in the kitchen, or you are given tasks cleaning and mopping certain areas of the building, or you are helping make beds and cleaning rooms. Then, on top of that, you are responsible for a schedule, and that is your responsi bility. That responsibili ty involves groups and also one on one with counsellors.

It gives you a new meaning of life and it gives you a new sense of resp onsibility, but it teaches you a whole different way of living. It teaches you a whole different lifestyle. I tell you it is much rewarding and a lifestyle change that I would recommend to anyone. The reason I say that is-1 will share with you very personally-that in 19 76, the exact thing happened to me. I went to the treatment centre at Ste. Rose du Lac, so I know what I am talking about when I say the seven-day dry-out period and the 28-day treatment, and the sessions that we all go through. It teaches you a different lifestyle.

I am proud to recommend to anyone who has a problem, do not be ashamed because it not only helps you but it helps your family, and it helps anyone who ever comes in contact with you. I have had people that have come to me that I have known personally in my life that have called me and said: Could you help me because I know that you went through it? What did you do? I know where to recommend. At first I was very ashamed of it. I would not be standing here today to say this years ago, but now I am thankful for the program that was there for me when I needed it.

I am thankful for the counsellors who were there to give me the assistance and to teach me to iive a different way than I lived in my previous life before I went to Ste. Rose du Lac. I know I am running out of time, but those are the programs that we have to be passionate about, and we have to make sure that we encourage it because if we have those support systems in place so that maybe the Children's Advocate can give the recommendations for heads of families or family members who need that guidance and that assistance, that the door will always be open and available for individuals who

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-39
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 39.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d7e1ee48704f7f258a07405f7480bd74eef9dc00

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