LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 23 April, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Thank you, Madam Speak er. � I beg leave to table the 16th Annual Report of the , Manitoba Law Reform Commission; the first Annual Report 1985-86 of the Department of the Attorney­ General; and under The Regulations Act, the regula tions passed by Order-in-Council since the last batch of regulations were tabled in this House in April of last year. MADAM SPEAKER: Not ices of Mo tio n . . . Introduction of Bills . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 50 Grade 9 stud ents from St. George School.

The students are under the direction of Mr. Clint Harvey. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Manitoba Developmental Centre - safe dispensing of medication MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speak er. My question is for the Min ister of Community Services and Corrections.

This morning we had the tabling of the long-awaited report of the Ombudsman into conditions at MDC that covered a variety of concerns at that institution in Portage la Prairie - concerns about the use of mind­ altering drugs, about staffing and physical conditions that seem to be inadequa te, about the treatment of our most vulnerable citi zens in society. My que stion to the Mini ster has to do with a comm itment that is required for action at the centre to improve those conditions.

The Omb udsma n has indica ted a concern to ensure that a safe system of medication be adopted for use with the residents in the centre. My question to the Minis ter is: What action has she taken to ensure that the medication system is safe for the residents? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speak er, there was, some time ago, an additional pharmacist added to the dispensing area.

With regard to the actual medic ations, as the members opposite knows, we have asked the College of Physicians and Surgeons to meet with the doctors and media te the particular dispute with regard to appropria te use of drugs. It is a medical issue and we are looking forward to their recommendations to us. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, these concerns have been raised despite the addition of the pharmacists, and these concerns obviously remain in the mind of the Ombudsman who has further indicated a concern with respect to the overall use of psychoactive drugs.

My question to the Minister is: When will she take action to alleviate that concern and to ensure that drugs that are being prescribed and given to the patients are in keeping with what should be done, and not in a position of puttin g concern in the mind of the Ombudsman and many of the parents and relatives of residents at MDC? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, what should be done in the medical dispensation of drugs - it's a medical issue - I am aware that there is a difference of opinion among doctors. There are not a large number of specialists in the mental retardation field.

I think that our first step of asking the College to media te the issue and give us recommendations is a very important first step. It may be, the reafter, if we find that there are irreconcilable points of view, that we would consult specialists, expertise further afield, to see if there is some kind of professional development or a process we can go through so tha t Manitoba's use of psychoactive drugs for the mentally retarded meets the best standards of current day medicine.

But whether we're going to be able to completely resolve differences of opinion that arise in the medical field around nearly every medical condition, Madam Speaker, I really can't say at this point in time, but I do think the steps that we've emba rked on are the right ones. And again, if the members opposite, from either party, have any recommendations as to how we could best sort out this particular issue, I would welcome them, because I think it's related to the use of drugs with the mentally ill and, indeed, in many other areas where there are emerging new theories of approach, Madam Speaker. 1228

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , before the Minister was indi cating that there wasn't anything wrong. Now that there's a report, she's asking for our advice. Our advice is that she should have been looking into this a long time ago. A MEMBER: She should resign; resign. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , my further question to the Minister . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister on a point of order. HON. M. SMITH: Point of ord er, Madam Speak er. I did not say there was nothing wrong at that institution or with regard to drugs.

As a matter of fact, I personally approached the previous medical director -(Interjection)- MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a point or order? A difference of opinion is not a point of order. HON. M. SMITH: Well, I think I was incorrectly quoted, Madam Speak er. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. A difference of opinion over the facts is not a point of order. Manitoba Developmental Centre - reporting of injuries MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with a question. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speak er.

The Ombudsman has expressed further concern that many incidents of injury at the MDC go unde tected and unreported, and he has made a very specific recommendation that teachers at the school be required to file incident reports on all residents at the school who suffer inju ry. Will that recommendation be carried out? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , there never used to be a system of reporting, but for over a year now there has been quite a rigorous policy regarding reporting. The full compliance with it has not yet been achieved, but I think we've been approaching a more fully cooperative response from staff.

Again, it's a change in policy for them from what preceded. With regard to the teachers, yes, I think that is important. I think any program staff, as well as direct care staff, should be under the same obligation to report. As a matter of fact, the reporting of incidents, I think is one of the most disturbing aspects of the entire situation, and I have asked staff to provide me with monthly reports on the incidents reported and the res olution of them, so that if we're finding any unexplained incidents, we can move in extremely quickly and try to get to the bottom of the problem, Madam Speak er.

Welcome Home Program - monitoring of MR. G. FILMON: My further question to the Minis ter is tha t the Ombudsman has ind icated tha t it is imperative that her department monitor the Welcome Home Program closely to ensure that the stated goals are actually met. My question to the Min ister is: Wha t form of monitoring is in place to ensure that the stated goals of the Welcome Home Program are being met? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker , the Welcome Home Program has three components: (1) improvement at the centre; (2) treatment of at-risk people in the community so they won't require institutionalization; and (3) moving out to the commun ity, 220 - a goal which we will have achieved by the 1st of July. In fact, monthly meetings are held by staff and representatives of provincial organizations where the information is shared on a regular basis as to progress.

In addition, we have the mental ret ardation and vocational rehab workers in the Regional Services who are responsible for monitoring individual cases; and then, with the residents in the commu nity, we do have non-pr ofit organizations, community boards, who have the additional responsibility of monitoring standards within their centre. So there's qui te a variety of safeguards and chan nels for in formation sharing, Madam Speak er.

Again, if the members opposite have additional suggestions they would like to make to monitor this program, we would welcome them because it is our abiding intention to improve services to the mentally retarded which were really in a very unde veloped state prior to our launching Welcome Home. MR. G. FILMON: Given that the Ombudsman has found that the monitoring is inadequa te, I wonder if the Mi nister would then care to share the results of the monitoring, some

summary of that monitoring, with members of the Opposition so that we can then be in a position to give our further advice to her. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speak er, I don't recall the Ombudsman saying the monitoring was inadequa te. I thought he said that was beyond the scope of his review. Nonetheless, we are concerned about the program and its monitoring and are prepared to share information with the members opposite. As I said, I listed all the groups inv olved in the information sharing and in the planning process, so our goal all along has not been not to share, quite the cont rary .

We also believe that the more public involvement we've achieved through this process is building a much more responsive and positiv e attitude to the ret arded thr oughout the commun ity. Manitoba Developmental Centre - action plan re Ombudsman's Report MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, in the course of the discussion with respect to MDC, and the discussion with respect to the Ombudsman's report, the Mi nis ter has consistently made statements to the effect that 1229

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 many improvements had been made and that MDC was indeed doing better today than it had in the past. The evidence in the Ombudsman's report indicates that there are very serious weaknesses and concerns. Will the Minister be tabling an action plan, that responds to all of the concerns raised by the Ombudsman, to tell mem bers on this side so that we can have debate and discussion in the Estimates consideration of her department as to whether or not the time frame and the comm itment is strong enough to correct the problems at MDC? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speak er, I am prepared to share great quantities of information with the members opposite. Again, I would make available to them the report tha t our de partment subm itted to the Ombud sman to indicate progress on staffing, on space, on program development, and on some of the other eleme nts that were identified in the report. Madam Spea ker, just to give you one example, there has been a reduction of 202 over five years in the resid ence, and a reduction of only 101 in the staff; so, as the absolute numbers of reside nts and staff are going down, the ratio of staff to residents is improving.

As of tod ay, the average space per resident has gone to within two square feet of the nursing home standard, a standard that has never in the past been applied to our type of institution. It's at 11 8 square feet per resident,

whereas the minimum standard was 79 square feet, Madam Speak er. Manitoba Developmental Centre - staff layoff orders MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speak er. My question is to the Min ister of Community Services. The Ombudsman's report, Madam Speak er, has clearly damned and condemned the actions or inactions of this Minister, but it did make one reference to the staff as being a caring and very concerned staff at the Manitoba Developmental Centre.

My question, Madam Speaker, is: In the light of the fourth recommendation, "that before further reductions in the cu rrent staffing complement take place, it be determined tha t the safety and well-being of the residents not be jeopardized," will this Minis ter now cancel the addit ional layoff orders that have been given at the MDC? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , if anyone stands condemned in this particular situation, it's all of society for having only offered retarded people the option of the family taking full respons ibility for their care or placement of them in a custodial situation in an institution.

Madam Speak er, what we have been attempting to do is to support families in their care for the retarded, support community supports where the families find that they can't manage on their own, and to improve the care in the institution beyond the custodial to the developmental. But, Madam Speaker , it's not as if there was a golden age in institutional care for the retarded that we are sudd enly fading away from. In fact, we are improving an institution that used to have 1, 100 people, Madam Speaker . We now have it do wn near 600 and the improvement will continue, Madam Speaker.

Min. of Community Services - request for resignation MR. E. CONNERY: Madam Speak er, my second question is to the First Mini ster. In light of the outrageous com ments that his Minister is making in the House, and has made in previous days, and in light of the weak and pathetic defence she made of the Ombudsman's report, it's now time that the First Minis ter removed this Minister from her portfolio; and in the interests of the resid ents of the Manitoba Developmental Centre, for their interests and their concern, will he now remove this Mini ster? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, if that kind of question is indeed in order, I want to associate myself and every member of the government with the very fine work that this Minis ter has done over the last number of years in improving, in bringing about gradual improvement - and that is, in fact, evidenced by comments from the Ombudsman - improvements and care for the mentally reta rded, the most vulnerable in our society. It has been this Minister that had the initiative and the foresight and the vision to undertake those kinds of efforts.

I feel, ra ther tha n being castigated, this Minis ter deserves to be commended for her efforts. Lottery 6/36 - discriminatory ad MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nis ter of Culture and Heritage Resources. HON. J. WASYLYCIA -LEIS: Thank you, Ma dam Speak er. Yesterday I took a question as notice from the Member for Arthur and I'd like to respond tod ay. I'd first like to thank the member for raising the matter in this House, the matter pertaining to the content of advertisements for Lottery 6/36. I have received the letter that the member referred to from a person, by the name of Mr. Franklin, in Deloraine.

I received that yesterd ay, reviewed the letter, and as a result of that letter and the question, reviewed the ads in question and would concur that they would be or cou ld be construed as offensive to many Manitobans, particularly in rural Manitoba. I've directed Manitoba's representative on the board of the Western Canada Lotteries Corporation to review the advertising policies and the procedures of the corporation to avoid this type of advertising in the future. The ads in question completed their run last week and will not be aired again.

Morrisseau, John - resignation as Deputy Minister MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. 1230

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speak er. I have a question of the Minister of Northern Affairs. My question to the Minister of Northern Affairs, Madam Speaker: Can he confirm tha t Mr. John Morrisseau has resigned as his Deputy Minis ter and, if he has, what were the reasons for his resignation? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Northern Affairs. HON. E. HARPER: Yes, I can confirm Mr. Morrisseau has resigned and he has resigned for personal reasons. Eyler, Phil - employment of MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Spea ker, a question to the same Min ister.

Can the Minis ter tell us whether or not Mr. Phil Eyler, the former Member for River East and ND P colleague of his, is now filling that position of Deputy Minis ter or, if not, what position in the departme nt is he filling? HON. E. HARPER: Yes, Mr. Eyler has not filled the position of Deputy Mini ster, but he's working in the Department of Northern Affairs on a special task. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, a further question to the Minis ter of Northern Affairs. Did Mr.

Eyler go through a normal hiring process through the Civil Service; at what wage and what expenses is he working for; and is it contractual or the normal hiring process? Could the Minister give me those answers, please? HON. E. HARPER: Yes. Mr. Eyler's position is a term position which is, I believe, from time to time given to people who are hired on a special task, given a specific assignment; but once the position is open, we would be proceeding through our normal channels of hiring. So in terms of hiring through the bulletin, this is not a position that is a full-time position; rather, it was a term position.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Arthur with a final supplem ent ary. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, would the Minis ter give us a job description and the rate of pay that Mr. Eyler is getting for the services? HON. E. HARPER: I can't give a definite answer in terms of the rate of pay, but I can probably answer that in the Estimates process. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. H. ENNS: Why not? Any time; let's have a public hearing at any time. Let's have it. Save the corporation $15 million. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Northern Affairs has the floor. HON. E. HARPER: Mr.

Eyler is on a special task which is to deal with commu nities, dealing with community planning and . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. If the Ho nourable Memb er for Lakeside ha s a question, he can put it in his proper turn. The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs has the floor. HON. E. HARPER: Yes, Mr. Eyler is on a special task force which is ... not a task, but a special assignment to deal with communities on community planning. Lagoon - Clearwater Lake MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speak er. My question is to the Min ister of the Environment.

Madam Speak er, the Minister's departme nt has appr oved plans for the building of a lagoon which will in fact take sewage into Clear water Lake outside of The Pas - one of the natural resources of the world in that it's one of three blue lakes with a depth of 140 feet. Will the Minis ter explain to the House why this development has been allowed to take place without any consultation with the residents or the city or the Town of The Pas, or even recreational users of the park? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

For the member's information, the Clean Environment Commis sion has been asked to hold public hearings on that very issue. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: For the Minister's information, The Clean Environment Act does not permit the Clean Environment Commis sion to stop the building of a lagoon. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Does the honourable member have a question? MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Yes, Madam Speaker, I have a new question to the Min ister of Natural Resources. Madam Speaker , surely one member of this Cabinet is able to see the serious flaws of this government's approach to the management of Clearwater Lake Wat ershed .

We now have a development taking place which is opposed by The Pas Town Council, the Swampy Creek Tribal Council, the Clearwater Lake Association, The Pas Indian Band, the Manitoba Environmental Council. Why has his department ignored these groups and blindly given the green light to this disastrous proposal? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I want to share with the member the concern that has been expressed. It is a very serious issue that we 1231

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 are dealing with in terms of meeting the needs of the people in the area. It seems that the Member for Emerson, my Natural Resources critic, is somewhat emba rrassed by the matter having been raised by someone else. I want to point out, Madam Speaker , that there has been consultation. The hearings were held in The Pas the last week. I personally met with the cottagers from the Cle arwater Lake area.

Many of the concerns have been brought to our attention by way of petition, and I accept that the process that was used for this project, though perfectly in compliance with the regulations that exist, did not adequately provide for public input. The process is not proceed ing at this stage. There was some work done on the site last year, but the work is not proceding at this stage, and will not proceed until the proper procedure is followed, fulfilled with the requirements of the Clean Environment Commission, and there has been adequate opportunity for the citizens of the area to express their concerns.

Clearwater Park - development plan MRS. S. CARS TAIRS : Madam Speaker, a supplementary question to the Min ister of Natural Resources. The government's mishandling of this question of sewer disposal is a clear indication that there is not a park plan for Cleawater Park. I ask the Min ister of Natural Resources when he will start to develop this plan, in consultation with the key groups such as the Cottage Association, the three commercial lodges, the Reserve and, indeed, the Town of The Pas? HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , I want to say, at the outset, that there was not a mishandling in terms of this being ha nd led outside of the existing requirements. Clear ly, what we are saying, that the new requirements that are being brought forward by the Min ister of Environment will ensure that the process in the future does allow for input at an earlier stage. I want to point out, as well, that there is clearly a process for consultation on park planning. We distributed in this Chamber last year a document which indic ated what the park plan process was for the province.

There is a process involved with the parks in the different parts of the province which involves consultation. So I reject the statement that this was mishandled and that there is not a process for planning in our parks. Lagoon - Clearwater Lake MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A final suppl ementary to the same Minis ter, Madam Speak er. Will the Min ister assure the indi viduals living in the area of Clearwater Lake that the entire proposal is on hold and will not be started up again until they have been heard from? HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speak er, I ind icated that earlier in this Chamber; I ind icated that earlier to the people, the cottagers in The Pas when I met them personal ly. We indica ted to them personally at that time that it would not proceed. But I want to point out as well, Madam Speaker, that the parks is proposing a project to deal with the disposition of waste only because there are people in the area who want to enjoy the facilities tha t are available at Clear water.

If there were not the pressures by people to use the facility - and it should be pointed out that the existing facilities in The Pas, at Pioneer Bay and Hugo Bay, are not satisfactorily meeting the requirements for disposition of sewage - which shows clearly if we are going to allow people to use the area, we have to have some facility for the disposition of tha t sewage. It is only because there is a demand for use of that, that we are looking for some means of disposing of the waste. Gay Film Festival - grant to MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is to the Min ister of Culture and Heritage Resources. Madam Speak er, it was reported in the last couple of days in the newspaper that the Provincial Government Department of Culture had made a grant in the amount of $2,000 and that the Manitoba Arts Council had made a grant of $1, 100 to the first Gay Film Festival in Winnipeg. Madam Speak er, can the Mini ster advise the House if, in fact, these grants were made by her department? MADAM SPEAKER: It's the member's duty to ascert ain facts that he brings before the Legislature. Would you care to rephrase your question? MR. J.

ERNST: Madam Speaker , did the Department of Cultural Affairs and the Manitoba Arts Council make grants to the Gay Film Festival? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Culture and Heritage Resources. HON. J. WASYLV CIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation, yes, provided a grant of $2,000 to this festival. The Manitoba Arts Council, I believe, has provided some assistance as well, but remains at arm's length from government and makes its own decisions on allocation of funds. Gay Film Festival - gov't policy re type of films funded MR. J.

ERNST: Madam Speaker, then I'd like to ask the Mini ster a supplemen tary question. Is it government policy to fund an organization that would provide enterta inm ent or movies, Ma da m Speaker , with a story about a transsexual and her straight fiancee, a video lecture about gay male erotica, a documen tary about the homosexual body worship of the Pope and Michael Jackson? Is this government policy to support these kinds of activities, Madam Speaker? 1232

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speaker, it is a responsibility of this department, and certainly the government, to encourage the development and the production of films thr ough out Ma ni toba and to encourage that cultural aspect of our province. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speaker, I don't think members opposite really want to hear an answer. Assistance is provided to a variety of film festivals, to a variety of endeavours around film making, film production and film showings.

This particular project certainly did not . . . there were no factors that suggested it should be consider ed separately from any other proposal on film showings, and it's not my job to try and judge every film that is shown. But I think it is important, Madam Speaker, to recognize that this film festival was planned as a part of AIDS Awareness Week, and there are films that are a part of the film festival which play a very important role with respect to that question. I would think that mem bers opposite would be in sup port of any endeavours and initiativ es in that area. MR. J.

ERNST; Madam Speak er, if Red Hot Video pornographic films were to hold a film festival in Manitoba, would they be eligible for a grant? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. That question is hypothet ical. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. PAMI - support of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minis ter of Agriculture. Just recently there's been some knowledge that the Al berta and Saskatchewan Go vernments are withdrawing support from the PAMI organization, Prairie Agricultural Machinery Institute.

Could the Minis ter tell us if he's had any commu nication with them in trying to encour age them to maintain their support? MADAM SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speak er, yes, we have had ongoing discussions, initi ally , with the Province of Alb erta, who gave notification that they had intended to pull out of the three-province agreement on the Prairie Agricultural Machine ry Testing In stitute.

We were of the opinion that they may have changed their minds, and until just recently, we read as well - we were actually shocked - that they are cutting their support and pulling out of the institute. As well, I should mention that it was both the Provinces of Saskatchewan and Alb erta (sic) that tried to convince Al berta to stay in. As of last week, I have also received notification tha t the Province of Saskatchewan is cutting support to the in stitute and appears to be on the verge of possibly ending that institute in that province.

Although we're not fully aware of what their intentions are, I intend, and I have had my staff attempt to get clarification of their position and will be following up on this matter. MR. C. BAKER: Can the Min ister assure us that Manitoba will not be withdrawing their support and that we, in fact, will be maintaining it? HON. B.

URUSKI : Madam Speaker , we certainly believe, and have believed , that the 10-year agre ement, which provided a sharing on the basis of cult ivated acreage in Western Canada as the basis of share, which our share, based on cult ivated acreage, is 20 percent of the three prairie provinces; that being in proportion to the kind of budgets tha t other provinces have, that the two provinces to the west should have budgets four times that of Manitoba in other areas. We intend to maintain our support of between $450,000 and $500,000.00.

It's our hope that the other provinces will change their minds because there is a large mass of computer equipment that assists all those provincial institutes in doing the necessary correlation of the work they do on a provincial basis, because each institute has its own specialty. Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta each does its own testing. Community Places Program - application MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

To the Mini ster of Culture, Heritage and Recrea tion: Can the Minister advise this House if the deadline for applications for the Community Places Program is passed, and can she tell us how many applications have been received to date? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for Culture and Heritage Resources. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Yes, thank you, Madam Spea ker. The deadline for the first application period actually ended back on February 25, and we received in the neighborhood of 500 applications.

Assuming the next question will be on the outcome of that process, I want to let the member opposite know that decisions are being finali zed now and we hope that organizations will receive news of their application around the end of the month. Constituency map - applications reviewed by NDP MLA's MR. G. ROCH: Madam Speaker, could the Minis ter advise us as to whether or not a constituency map has 1233

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 been drawn up showing the number of appl ications from each constituenc y, and whether these applications ha ve been referred to the NOP ML A's for recommendations? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speake r, ther e is a branch within my department resp onsible for admi nistering this program, seeking advice from all kinds of people and regions and areas about the applications to determine . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speaker, it's our responsibility to determine eligibili ty of each application and feasibility in order to make recommendations.

We have made a commitment at the start of this program to ensure that there would be fair and equitable di stribution, and that means fair and equ itable distribution on the basis of region, on the basis of rural versus urban, and on the basis of a numb er of disciplines, including sports, including culture, including museums and libraries, community services, day cares, and so on. We are obviously pursuing each application as best we are able to ascertain the facts in order to make appropriate reco mmendations. MR. G.

ROCH: Madam Speaker, the Minis ter never ans wered my question, but if indeed NOP MLA's have received these applications for rec ommendations, will Opposition MLA's be given the same courtes y, or will favouritism be shown to the NOP Caucus while we're discrimi nated against? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speaker, I have had a numb er of conversat ions with members opposite. Memb ers opposite have come to me with particular projects that they wanted to see pursued.

I have suggested to them that we would be welcome at any point to receive their recommendations or their views on any of the applications that are forwarded to us. I encourage that from all sides of the House. Child Abuse - tabling of internal review re deaths MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nister of Commun ity Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speak er, further to my comments on April 21, I can provide the House with the following information on the 1986 child deaths reportedly involving abuse.

Only two of the five cases no longer involve any outsta nding legal proceedings; one because no charges were laid; and one because sentence was already passed. In one other case, as I stated, there had been a finding of criminal negligence regarding the offender's mother, who had care and custody of the child, but the sentencing remains to be done. There was already a sentence of the abus er, in this case, under The Young Offenders Act. In the two remaining cases, however, charges have been laid but the prelimina ry trials have not yet begun.

I wanted to clarify this for members, since I un dertook to table summaries of the departmental review of these cases, which I can confirm I will do, but as honourable members are aware, I cannot make a

summary available until all legal proceed ings are completed. Of the two cases which have cleared the court, a

summary is now being prepared on one which I will make availabl e May 5; on the other, additional information is still required from the children's guardian in the Province of Alberta, and the summa ry will be prepared for release after this information is received and the full report shared with the responsible Winnipeg agen cy. Farm land - relief from education tax - retired farmers MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Spea ker. Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minis ter of Agriculture.

Will retired farmers be excluded from rece iving the education property tax relief as proposed in the last provincial Budget? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture, if that's in his jurisdiction. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, all those details are being finali zed and when they're all complete, I will be making those announcements to all members and all Manitobans. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, it was in the Budget, and I believe the Minis ter ind icated that retired farmers who are renting their land will not be eligible for that education tax rebate.

Is the Minister now saying that policy has changed? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, in the first question the honourable member did not make mention tha t someone was not farming his land; all he said was that they were retired, Madam Speaker. That doesn't mean that they're not farming . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: That means they're not farming their land. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, all those details are being finalized.

I want to indic ate to my honourable friend that we are still in the process of havi ng discussions with the Union of Manitoba Mun icipalities on certain aspects of the program, and when those discussions are fina li zed , we will be ma king th e announcements in the House and public ly, Madam Speaker. Farm land - relief from education tax - rented land MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, a further question to the Min ister of Agriculture: 1234

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 If his policy persists in retired farmers, who are renting their land, will not get the education tax relief, it will go to the renter. Can I ask the Min ister the scenario where a farmer, who is receiving the maximum rebate of $500 on land he owns, will he receive in addition to that the education tax relief on land rented from a retired farmer? MADAM SPEAKER: Would the honourable member like to rephrase the question so it isn't hypothetical? MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speak er, I did not detect anything hypothetical about the question.

It's a very real circumstance. · Madam Speaker, a farmer who owns land . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Is the honourable member arguing with me? MR. D. ORCHARD: I beg your pard on, Madam Speaker? MADAM SPEAKER: Would the honourable member care to rephrase his quest ion so it's clearly not hypothetical? MR. D. ORCHARD: I think, Madam Speaker, the Min ister und erstood the question, but I'll repeat it for him.

If a farmer who owns his land and received the maximum tax rebate, accord ing to the Budge t, and he rents land from a retired farmer, will he receive, in addition to his $500 maximum, the tax relief provided in the Budget on land he rents? MADAM SPEAKER: Tha t question is defin itely hypothetical. MR. D. ORCHARD; What? Madam Speake r, the policies that the Minis ter is so diligently developing, will they include the ability of farmers receiving the maximum rebate on land they own, to receive additional education tax rebate on the land they rent? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, clearly , the policy that we have enun ciated in the broadest terms - and I've ind icated to my honourable friend that the details will be announced when they are worked out - but in the broadest terms, our policy is that the operators of the land should be the ones receiving the benefit. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DA Y NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I wonder if I could ask all honourable members for the opportunity to make a non-political statement.

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) The Honour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am sure that all members of this House, and I'm sure all Manitobans, would like to join with me to pay tribute to the Pequis Choralaires, the choral group from the Reserve of Peguis who have won a double-br onze award at the International Music Festival on Monda y, April 20, in Honolulu, Hawaii. They comp eted against 16 choral groups and have been recognized by the President of the Unit ed States.

This government and other members, and I'm sure all members, would want to wish them the very best. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Agriculture, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MA TTER OF GRIEVANCE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for La Verendr ye. MR. H.

PANKRATZ: It's on a matter of grievance that I'm rising today, in respect to the survival of the sugar beet indus try for the Province of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, it's not only the farmers, not only the factory workers, it's not only the rural communi ties, it's not only the employees in the fields and farms, the businesses, but it's the total economy of the Province of Manitoba that it does affect . It may yet be in such a small way, but every little bit in a province like this, of Manitoba, it does affect us all. So, Madam Speaker, for that reason, I'm rising toda y on a point of grievance.

It's the na rrow- minded approach that this government and our Premier of the province have displa yed for the past two years in respect to the sugar beet indus try. I heard the other day the Premier of the province on TV and he was stating, "Enough is enough ." Well, Madam Speaker, if that is an attitude that he is taking toward industry, toward business, toward labour, toward the people in this province, I believe the next election will prove enough is enough. Madam Speake r, once again the leader of this province is di spla ying the incomp etency of his leader ship.

In my grievance I intend today to prove to everybody in this House the incom petency, not only of the Premier, but also the Minis ter of Agriculture, also the Minis ter of Ind ustry and Techno logy, who has taken such an active role in this discussion. Madam Speaker, for me it's most difficult, on a point of grievance, to rise in this House. This is the first time that I'm taking this opportunity and I feel it's about the best time in my second year, or second Session, that a point of this interest, which affects all of us, that I 1235

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 can rise and speak to this possi bly at the twelfth hour, after which this indus try will be going down for good. I had a little discussion with the Member for ln kster yesterd ay, and that sort of in dicated to me that it's not only the Minis ter of Agriculture or the Minister of Ind ustry and Technology that don't know very much about the tripartite agreement, but all the rest of the mem bers on the government side of the House are also not familiar with what this tripa rtite agreement is all about.

I will point out to all members in this House exactly the incomp etency that this government has shown to this date and also, on such an important issue as this, employing in the vicinity of 1, 000 people in the Province of Manitoba, that they don't even famil iarize thems elves with what is basically at stake. Sugar beets have been grown in the Province of Manitoba for around 45 years. Approxima tely 20 years ago, B.C. Sugar purch ased Manitoba Sugar Compa ny, and they also purchased Al berta Sugar. Our contracts with B.C.

Sugar have been basically - and I'm not going to go into the fine-tuning of the agr eement - but basically it's 63, 37 percent. Thir ty­ seven percent goes to the company , 63 percent has been going to the grower. During the depressed prices in 1982, 1983 and 1984, the company was not recei ving any portion of which the growers were receiving from the federal agricultural stabilization, so the company in 1984 says, after 1984, we will not honour that agreement anymore.

I think this is important to notice, because we've been stated by members on the government side about how, for 25 years, ther e has been this Agricultural Stabi lization Program in place and so forth, but they have to realize that sugar beets have never been a named commod ity. It was always under the goodness of the Sugar Beet Growers Association that went to Ottawa and applied for assistance and received it. I also want to point out at this point in time that in 1979 and 1980, sugar prices were extremely high on the world market.

The Province of Manitoba then approached the Manitoba Sugar Company and in conjunction with the Growers' Association decided to keep the price of sugar artificially down. That saving alone, in 1979 and 1980, was a saving to the Province of Manitoba of $3.5 million. I believe the growers, and naturally the sugar beet company , operated in the best inter ests of the people of the Province of Manitoba.

In spite of the fact that some growers possibly felt, well, here we could get a little bit more in general, the consensus among the growers was that we have to accept it; because if again, prices would all of a sudden dip, as they are right toda y - the floor price - then we will be back at the government possibly to help us to stabil ize. This is basically the stage we are at the present. Madam Speaker, now I want to take you through some dates and I want to start off now with April 15 to 18, when a delegation of approxima tely 150 people went to Ottawa.

They went to Ottawa with respect to the depressed sugar beet prices and also the fact that Manitoba Sugar Company would not honour the old agreement anymore, the 63/37 percent. This delegation that went to Alb erta consisted of the Minister of Agricu lture from Alberta, plus quite a few of his staff, plus growers, business people, also from Manitoba the Manitoba Growers' Associa tion, memb ers from the Growers' Association, also growers.

Madam Speaker, it also consisted of Arnold Brown, the Mem ber from the Opposition of this House; he also attended that meeting, but nobody from our Department of Agriculture, no Minis ter. This is a time when Alberta put on th e table $10 a tonne, tha t they could com pensate their growers by $10 a tonne.

I fail to recognize, after that, that our Minis ter will get up and state that he is not prepared to then help along the sugar beet indus try in a similar fashion; but what did transpire, the Federal Government immedia tely said if the Alberta Government is willing to pay $1 0, then we as a Federal Government will match whatever the provinc es will put up. So that put $20 on the table. (Mr. Deputy Speak er, C. Santos, in the Chair.) Negotiations with the company then were to keep it alive for one year. The sugar beet company ind icated, we will guarantee the growers $25.00.

Twen ty-five dollars and 10 and 10 makes it a total of $45 in 1985. Well, it was May 2 in Rosenfel d, and about 300 growers attended a meeting when the Honourable Min ister of Agriculture was supposed to give us his response. The growers were there expecting a response from the Min ister and, Mr. Deputy Speaker, our Minister of Agriculture didn't even respond by a phone call. A MEMBER: You mean he wasn't there? MR. H. PANKRATZ: Then on May 4, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that Federal Min ister of Agriculture, Charlie Mayer, was almost held at ransom, unless he would produce a letter stating that that would be a one-time contribution, the Province of Manitoba would not go in with the $10 a tonne subsidy . The Hon. Mr. Charlie Mayer, and I'd like to call him "ho nourable" for that, he telexed our Mini ster of Agriculture a letter that there would be more funding. That was May 4, and we grew sugar beets in 1985.

In 1986, the company stated, we are going into a tripartite stabilization and for the one year only we will cover two-t hirds of the cost and the company one­ third, basically, and that gives us roughly, approximately $47-$48 a tonne. So that's why we had the opportunity to grow sugar beets in 1986, but it was stated very clearly to our Minis ter of Agriculture that a different program would have to be set up in regard to sugar beets for the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to now take you to July 28, 1985.

The Federal Min ister of Agriculture called a meeting in Ottawa where John Loewen and Bill Siemens from the provincial board attended. Alberta attended, the Alberta Minis ter of Agriculture attended, and this was an explora tory mee ting to determine which route to go in regard to the sugar beet ind ustry. Again I must state that there was nobody present from the Provincial Government.

It was this, when growers from both provinces, Agriculture Mi nis ters from Alb erta were there, also Federal Agriculture Minis ters, when they decided that basically sugar beets fell under the National Agricultural Strategy Report and which would basically have to be dealt with through tripartite stabilization. It's these meetings that I want to bring out, because these are the times when our Agriculture Minis ter would have been able to have the input in order to, if he did not want to go along with tripartite stabilization, to 1236

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 voice his concerns, to voice his objections and possibly to recommend alternatives. But our Agriculture Mini ster or any of his Deputy Ministers did not even att end. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it's March 12 , 1986. The Federal Government announc ed the sugar policy which called for a tripartite stabilization program. Then March 20, 1986, the first tripartite meeting was called in Winnipeg. This was a briefing meeting in regard to tripartite, and I must state, our Agrilture Min ister sent one of his Deputy Minis ters, Craig Lee, to this meeting. He did attend.

He was the only person, I believe, from the provincial agricultural comm ittee. Staff people were there from Alberta again and also Manitoba growers and this was the first time that they attended a briefing in regard to tripartite. Mr. Deputy Speaker, April 1 tripartite meeting in Alberta, Manitoba wheat growers were present, Al bera wheat growers were present, Al berta Department of Agriculture was present, and again, nobody from the Province of Manitoba. April 21, 1986, tripartite meeting here in Winnipeg, because they alternated these meetings.

Agricultural members from the Department of Agriculture from Alberta, growers from Al berta, growers from Manitoba, federal department members from Ottawa, nobody from the Province of Manitoba. June 23, 1986, again a meeting, I believe this one was in Al berta and again our grower memb ers from the Province of Manitoba, but no Department of Agriculture members were at this meeting. Mem bers from Al berta from Agriculture and also from growers, but no body from the Ma ni toba Depart ment of Agricultur e. Mr. Deputy Speake r, on July 28, 1986 there was a tripartite meeting in Calgary.

At that meeting the Deputy Agriculture Min ister, Mr. Craig Lee, did attend and this Deputy Minister suggested at that time that when the price of sugar exceeds the $48.00 floor price, the sugar beets, that then the growers contribute a higher portion. This, Mr. Deputy Speaker, was introduced into the plan at his rec ommendation. And it's a good point, when our members from the Growers' Association came back to us as growers and ind icated this incr ease, how it would affect the growers, the growers thought it was a great idea, Mr. Deputy Spea ker.

So, it has been in troduced in the plan which now, naturu ral ly, Alberta has sig ned and it's part of a stipulation which Alberta will have to live with and if Manitoba does not see this through, then naturally it's a contribution by our Deputy Minister of Agriculture and we, as growers, will be the worse for it. Mr. Deputy Speak er, I now want to take you to a National Agricultural Strategy that has been signed, this has been signed by all 10 Agriculture Min isters in Canada. Our Billy Uruski, his name is here, and as all you members in this House can see, it's underlined.

For the record, it has been und erlined for that reason. He has signed this. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to read to you from some of these portions because you might state that our Minis ter of Agricultur e, he's always trying to bring up in this House that we, as members on this side, and he has that one letter from Charlie Mayer which he holds in his hands so dearly, whereby he reneges all his responsibil ity. Mr. Deputy Spea ker, I want to read for the record.

"A recognituion of the shared jurisdictions and shared 1237 responsibili ties for agriculture and food development, including the rights of both levels of government to inter vene in areas of finance, marketing, research, production assistance and income stabilization. While ack now ledging tha t resource management is a provincial responsibil ity, it is further recognized that such intervention should, of course, not be contrary to other principles and objectiv es of the National Agricultural Strategy. "Equity and respect for reg ional econ omics.

Go vernment action should be oriented towards marketing and ind ustry competiti veness. "Protection of family farms: Effective cooperation of and coordination with the private sector." Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is quite obvious that our Minis ter of Agriculture was fully aware of what he signed and that, from the da te he signed this, the only way the agricultural sugar beet in dustry could survive would be through national tripa rtite stabilization. He never saw fit to attend any of the meetings. Those are five meetings that were called. He hasn't attended a single one and now at the twelfth hour, Mr.

Deputy Spea ker, he is stating he's got an agreement on the table. I think that's obvious that the Minis ter is reneging on his respon sibil ity, and also other mem bers elected to the government side of the House because they should, by all means, be updating the mselves. I also now want to read for the record from the same strategy book which our Minister of Agriculture has signed in regard to market risk. "F arm prices or income stabili zation programs constitute peculiarly effective tools against the negative effects of pric e fluctuations in domestic and international markets.

Under the federal Agricultural Stabilization Act, the Federal Government provides market-risk protect ion through its general price support formula as defined in the act, or through tripa rtite agreements involving producers and the province and the Federal Government. In addition some provinces adminis trate their own income stabiliz ation programs, and the Federal Government operates the Western Grain Stabil ization Program. "T he Minis ter of Agricultur e af firms tha t the harmonization of stabilization programs continued to be major objective among governments.

Stabilization programs must not serve as production-inc ent ive programs. Stabilization programs must be establised in a self-su stai ning, actuarially sound manner . National stabilization programs must be sensitiv e to regional differences ." Mr. Deputy Speaker, in the outset, it states: "At the recent First Min isters' Conf erence in Vancouver, my provincial colleagues and I tabled a National Agricultural Strategy, a copy of which is enclosed.

This document, which was un animo usly endorsed, represents an important first step in addressing a number of serious chall enges facing Cana da's agriculture and food ind ustry." Mr. Deputy Speaker, it has become quite apparent that this government is not inter ested in the well-being of the people in the sugar beet industry. A MEMBER: Wel l, we go by qua lity here. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Mr. Deputy Speaker, at the present time, we have a couple of members on the government

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 side, I believe, who are trying to make some political gains for the next federal election. A MEMBER: There are only four sitting here right now. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Yeah, but they all got cameras or screens in their rooms, and I'm sure they can hear if they'd like to. Mr. Deputy Speaker , I belie ve possibly the Min ister of Tec hnology , the . . . HON. R. PENNER: We're listening; just still want to know why we should sign a blank cheque. A MEMBER: Well, pay att ention, "Commie." What do you want, a collective farm for sugar beets? MR. H. PANKRATZ: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Minis ter of Tec hno logy, I understand, has incli nations possibly of running federally and so does possibly the Premier of this province. And I can see the problems that they're facing because if they can't in some way discredit the Hon. Minister Charlie Mayer and the Hon. Mister Jake Epp, then basically they won't have a hope in the next federal elect ion. So naturally , they must do everyt hing in their own power. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to read to you a letter that was mailed to the Hon. Howard Pawley that comes from the B.C. Sugar president, Peter A.

Chern iavs ky, the president of the company . I want to read for the record a portion of his letter. "Al berta has agreed to the program, and formal signing will take place on April 16. The Manitoba Government has indi cated that it will not participa te. If this position is maintained, growers and processing of sugar beets in Manitoba have ceased. On April 10, the Manitoba Sugar Company will give severance notice to most of its 93 full-time employees.

The only remaining activity of our Winnipeg factory will be receiving bulk rail cars or suga r from elsewhere, and packing consumer packages to supply the local market. This remaining economic activit y is perhaps 1 percent of that of the full operating enterprise. I must stress that there is no possibility of being shut down for just one year, and maybe reope ning in 1988 or later. The ind ustry once shut down is gone forever. I must say this so there will be no misunde rstan ding by anyone on the finality of closure." Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Sugar Company is paying to the City of Winnip eg $400,000 property taxes ann ual ly. The Manitoba Sugar Company pays $50,000 busine ss tax ann ual ly. Their total wages, Mr. Deputy Speaker, are $4 million. They are employing 93 full­ time, 150 part-time jobs. Their payroll tax alone is $80,000.00. The City of Win ni peg receives over $1 00,000 in their taxes on the natural gas that the Manitoba Sugar Company is using. The Province of Manitoba is receiving around $1 70,000 just in the tax, Mr. Deputy Speaker , not calculating all the sales taxes ind ividually or the income taxes.

The Manitoba Sugar Company contribu tes to the Provincial Treasury $550,000 annually without looking at some of these smaller ones like licensing and so forth. This is just taking the major items.

Then if you take placements in total, their employment of 12 people, 50 part-ti me, through wages and payroll tax and other taxes, you're contributing to the Province of Manitoba well over $200,000 annual ly. (Madam Speaker in the Chair .) Now I'm happy to see the Mi nis ter of Agriculture here, because I'd like to, at this point in time, ind icate to him what he was referring to tha t the Tariff Board should ind icate to the Federal Government and the price of sugar should incr ease. I don't deny that. That's possibly a route that should be taken.

But I'd like to explain to members in this House what'll happen if the Tariff Board's recommendation to the Federal Government would be 1 cent, and if we lose our sugar beet industr y, what a loss that will be to the Province of Manitoba. Let's just assu(Tle it's a 1-cent inc rease, and on a per capita consumption, we're consuming 100 pounds per person.- (Interject ion)- Okay 90, he says 90. Basically there are federal figures which also state that we are consuming 128 pounds; so let's use $1 for quick calculation. That's $1 per person, and we've got 1 million people in the Province of Manitoba.

That means it will cost the Province of Manitoba $1 million, and if tha t Tariff Board will come up with a recommendation of possibly 5 cents, that would be a direct cost to the Province of Manitoba of $5 million and those $5 million will be leaving the Province of Manitoba.

Now, if the Tariff Board will come up with that reco mmendation of 5 percent, which I believe they will - just that it will take a matter of a year or two - and the Federal Government will follow their recom mendation, and if a 5 percent increase is imposed on the import of sugar, that means that basically no contribution will be required from the province, from the Federal Government, to sustain the sugar beet indus try.- (Interjection)- Well, I realize, you're saying, "what," Mr. Minis ter. I realize that you don't know what this policy is all about and I wish, Mr.

Minis ter, that you would pay a little more attention, because I've only got 40 minutes. MR. G. ROCH: We thought the Premier was kidding when he made you Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: And they don't need an agreement. They don't need an agreement if they're as good as you say. MR. G. ROCH: Put it on the record . Put it on the record, show whose side you're on. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Will the honourable member permit a question? The Honourable Member for Springfield wanted me to put it on the record.

Will the honourable member MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Madam Speaker, when I'm finished, I'd love to answer questions and I would wish that all 1238

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 members in that House would be there, that I could go over it and show to them what a benefit basically this is, which naturally most of them are not listening to it, and they don't know, they don't care. But basical ly, if the Tariff Board - and I'll repeat for the record, for the Minis ter of Agriculture - there's a good possibility that the Tariff Board will, within about a year's time, make a rec ommenda tion to the Federal Government and that could run anywhere from 5 cents to 10 cents a pound.

The Minister of Agriculture is well aware of that tact, because this sugar is being dumped into Canada and only 1 out of 46 countries allows this sugar to be dumped into. This sugar cannot be dumped into the United States, only Canada, so this is where the inequity imposes on our agricultural sector. Then I want to take a paper that the Min ister of Indus try, Trade and Technology was using when 30 people, businessmen, mayors and reeves came to see him last week, Thursd ay. He had a piece of paper and I think most of you saw it, and the Minis ter of Agriculture, I'm sure, did. Then he uses a five-year average.

Madam Speak er, a five-year average, when you've made one contribution in 45 years, I think is trying to distort the figures. I think the Mini ster of Agriculture will have to realize that what the Honourable Min ister of Ind ustry, Trade and Technology was trying to do, he was very successful at that point in time, but after tho se people went home and discussed it with their mem bers and found out what actually had transpired, what the Minister of Ind ustry, Trade and Tec hnology had done, they actually felt betrayed. That's right.

And I'm going to ask the Minis ter of Agriculture: Do you allow turkeys to be dumped into Canada? Do you allow eggs to be dumped into . . . MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nister of Agricultur e. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Spe aker, the honourable member asked me a question. I want to tell him that the Federal Government does allow the dumping of MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Madam Speaker , I want to ask the Minis ter of Agricultur e: Can eggs be dumped into the Province of Manitoba? What about broilers; can they be dumped?

It's obvious again that the Min ister of Agriculture is trying to distort the actual figures, because there's no question about it when he says yes to turkeys - and a turkey in Manitoba costs $40 and across the line costs $16 - it's quite obvious that the growers in the Uni ted States would love to market them here in Manitoba and they're restricted, they cannot, and the Mini ster of Agriculture is well aware of this. The other point I want to draw to your att ention from this is milk. Would you believe it, if Canada would allow right tod ay, butter to enter this countr y, it would literally be free?

And I think the Min ister of Agriculture is well aware of it. I want to ask the Min ister of Agriculture, why did you pay out to agricultural hog producers well over $3 million just before your election and then go into a federal tripartite in hogs? I would wish the Minister of Agriculture, after I'm through spea king, would answer that question. I wish he would have the guts to do so, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, a lot of beef producers would want to enter into a tripartite stabilization, but our Minis ter of Agriculture does not want to enter a beef tripa rtite stabi lization program.

I would wish that he would discuss that thoroughly with the growers, with the producers, because I think even that would be in the best inter ests of the beef producers. Madam Speaker, I want to now explain to members in this House in regard to another point which I have not once heard our Minister of Agriculture touch on, and that's in respect to the allowable amount of export that Canada can export sugar in relation to the import, which would be a direct income to the sugar production in Canada. Canada imports about 91 percent of its sugar.

Of that 91 percent, there's an agreement with the Unit ed States, and I'm not going to go into that agreement because I'm really not familiar with it, but I know from our board members that, from that 90 percent, 1. 2 percent Canada can export to the Unit ed States. This does not have to be Canad a-grown sugar. This can be imported sugar , but the sale of that money, the Federal Government will directly al locate to the Canadian sugar indus try. This amounts to approximately $4 million, which would be shared jointly between the Province of Manitoba and also the Province of Al berta.

If Manitoba sees fit not to sign the tripartite agreement, this total amount will basically go to Alberta and they will use very little additional funding from the Province of Alberta to subsidize their own indus try. I think our Minis ter of Agriculture should be made aware of this. Madam Speaker, we have a letter from the Un ited Food and Commercial Workers' International Union - Local 111 , add ressed to the Honou rable Minis ter, Billie Uruski, signed by Bruno Zimmer, President.

Madam Speaker, in that letter he states, "Fortun ately, thr ough some las t-mi nute Federal Go vernment assistance to the sugar beet growers in 1986, and through the financial assistance of both the Federal and the Provincial Governments in 1985, the sugar beet ind ustry and the jobs that go with it were saved. We very much appreciate the Provincial Government's involvement in 1985. "H owever , you would ha ve to agree tha t this uncertainty cannot continue. A solution, other than on a piecemeal basis, has to be found to keep the sugar beet indus try alive.

Therefore, we are hereby urging you and your colleagues in government to support the proposed tripartite national sugar policy which has been endor sed by the Manitoba Sugar Beet Producers' Association. "Ma nitoba cannot afford to lose this indus try and the jobs that go with it. The payroll and benefits out of the sugar processing plant alone amount to well over $5 million annual ly.

If, by participating in this proposed national sugar polic y, the annual cost to the Province of Manitoba will be approxima tely $31 5,000, as quoted by the Manitoba Sugar Beet Producers' Association, it would be a small price to pay to save a viable indus try." 1239

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 Madam Speaker , I want to, just for the record, state where Canada imports 90 percent of its sugar from. It's from Australia, Cuba and South Africa. It's the South African wine that was removed from the shelves, does this govern ment now want to partici pate in the consumption of their sugar? I now want to, for the record, put on the record, a major economic impact from the sugar beet production in Mani toba done by Carol Nachtigall, Ec onomic An alysts Branch, Manitoba Agricultur e.

She states in her study that the farm labour is approxi ma tely 920 man years, and also in the process ing and labour 656 man years. Madam Speaker, this is a large ind ustry and I would wish that the members in government would see fit to see that this indus try can stay alive. I would wish that they would reopen negotiations with the Honourable Min ister, Charlie Mayer, and see fit that basically this ind ustry can survive. If this ind ustry fails, not only do we hold the Mi nister of Agriculture responsible, Madam Speaker, but all members of the govern ment.

I want to thank our agricultural critic for the support, as well as all members on this side, especially our leader , for the support they've shown for the sugar beet indu stry. I believe we have given it our best in order to save a very good industry for the Province of Manitoba. Thank you. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speak er, will the honourable member permit a question if there is some time left? MR. H. PANK RATZ: Sure. HON. B. URUSKI: Could the honourable member ind icate and place on the record the comments that he has made privately that are different from those that he has made publicly? MR. H.

PANK RATZ: Madam Speaker, my comments I've made privately are the same as made in this House constantly . I can repeat my brief if the Honourable Min ister of Agriculture would so desire, but I'm sure time won't permit. MADAM SPEAKER: The honou rable member's time has expired. QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonne t in the Chair for the Department of Health.

CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HE ALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: Committee, come to order. Mr. Mini ster. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, then, where was I? Now there was on the Community Health Services operation, the Health critic for the Official Opposition had asked where the money that was overspent and unde rspent, there it is. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, before we speed right along, I'd just like to pose a question to the Min ister on Mental Health.

It's num bers that I would like to have confirmed, if it was possible to do, and I'll give you the num bers. What this is, is average daily patient volume at the mental health centres at Brandon and Selkirk and the number of staff, and I just want to make sure that these numbers were correct. In 1970, it was indic ated that the average daily patient volume was 1, 508, and the numb er of staff at both Brandon and Selkirk was 1, 278, for a ratio of staff to patient of .85, back in 1970. Since that time there has been a decline in the number of patients.

The average daily patient volume, as given by the Min ister here on Mond ay, was 725. The number of staff, if my arithmetic is correct, is at 1, 095, for a ratio in 1987 of 1. 51 to 1, staff to patient. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Wait a minute. I want to make sure I can follow this. You talked about the population in Brandon? What numb ers did you have? MR. D. ORCHARD: I've used Brandon and Selkirk combined figures, average daily patient volume, and I'm using the year-end 1987 figure of 725. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That's about it, approxim ately . MR. D.

ORCHARD: The only thing, the historic figure - in 1970, like I've got the flow of figures from '70, '75,'80,'85. Obviou sly, it's Stats Canada; I'm not sure of the sou rce. But, basical ly, the conclusion that I come to from this is that whilst we have been reducing the patient volume at both those institutions, Brandon and Selkirk, there has certainly been no corresp onding reduction in staff, which may well lead to the logical conclusion of the high cost of the institution of staff-patient ratio of .85 in 1970, almost doubled to 1. 51 in 1987.

So if the Minis ter could check those first figures in 1970, and give us an idea. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I only have from'79 here. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, I didn't expect you to have those. I'm sorry I didn't have tho se when we dealt with mental health because I'd misplaced that piece of information. Mr. Cha irman, before we get into the general discussion on Regional Services, I'd like to request some information because it may be available here.

In terms of the home orderly service, first off, I'd like to find out the numb er of clients currently being served , and this is only in Winnipeg, because that's the only place home orderly service is available, the numb er of clients, but I think more importantly the number of calls that are being made un der the home orderly service, because client count is not really an ind ication of 1240

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 program expansion, because it's my un dersta nding that some clients are rece iving fewer calls from home orderly service. I'd secondly like to know whethe r, to keep up with a demand, that Regional Services is retaining the private sector participation of Medox or Upjohn to fill in on home orderly service and, if it's possible, to ind icate to what extent they are being used.

If the Mini ster could also indic ate whether the salary allotment for last fiscal year, which was '86-87, was in the neigh bourhood of $260,000, and the actual expenditure in '86-87 had turned out to be something in the neighbourhood of $740,000, almost a tripling of the salary component, if that information could be available, we may have time yet today to debate the home orderly service.

Because this is a subject that was open to some pretty contentious debate in 19 81, where it was operated by the private sector and was deemed unsatisfactory by the incoming admin istration, in 198 1 was switched over to an in-house service; and from information I've been able to get, the in-h ouse service is certainly not operating satisfactori ly. You have problems in terms of budget control; you have problems in terms of service deliv ery; you have a growing num ber of complaints in terms of client satisfaction with the government-provided home orderly service.

As a matter of fact, our mutual friend from Transcona, I believe even at one time considered a lawsuit in terms of provision of service by home orderly service. So that information, I don't need it right now, but th ose are the kinds . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: We looked at that when we look at Home Care, I think we can give you some of that, but if we haven't got it here, we'll try to give you everyt hing. MR. D.

ORCHARD: That would be fine because, even if it's not available tod ay, although it would probably be useful if it was available tod ay, if it's available for Mond ay, Tuesday next week, we could deba te it briefly in the Mini ster's Sal ary. Mr. Chairman, a general question in terms of the Winnipeg Region and the reorganization in the Winni peg Re gion. Can the Minis ter ind icate whether any em ployees currently in the Winn ipeg Region . . . Oka y, the th ree Winnipeg Regions and the Central Region, the new Winn ipeg structure, are currently red circled as empl oyee s. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: We are reviewing all these different jobs. Some of them might be at a lower classificati on, are deemed to be at a lower classification. There could be some red circling then, but there's none that I know of at this time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Let me make sure that the Min ister and I understand each other .

You're saying that, at present, under the staff complement in the Winnipeg Region, the th ree regions, the new organization, that no employees are currently red circled, i.e. , by being red circled, they've been notified, they've had an int erview, their job description has been discussed with them as required by the Civil Service Commission. You're saying that, right now, no emplo yees have been red circled and unde rgone that process? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Some of those that would be affec ted, that could be affected by the review, have been notified that there's a review that will take place.

I think they'v e disc ussed with them how the review will be conducted, and if they have any information or any appeal or anything to make, but so far there's not a single one, to my understanding, that has been red circled. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Mini ster's saying that some have been notified in terms of their . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: It's a possi bility. Their job would be reviewed and maybe reclassified downward, and every one of those whose job might go down - not necessarily will - might go down, have been notified that the review was taking pla ce. MR. D. ORCHARD: But none are currently red circled? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: That's what I understand. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, last year when we dealt with Regional Services Estimates, the SY count - if I can find it quickly - was 685.75. The adjusted vote added over the year some 44.5 SY's to bring us to up 740.25 SY's that you're requesting this year.

This has always been an area where, in discussion last year, I indica ted to the Minis ter that I cautioned him to watch this reorganization of the Winnip eg Region that you didn't end up in a scenario like Communi ty Services did with Children's Aid Society, wherein there were some 40 extra staff required to handle the six newly created regions at CAS. Now since last year we've had 36 additional staff in the Winn ipeg Region. The Min ister had explained tha t on Tuesday as being necessary for primarily home care service deliv ery.

Can I ask the question to the Minis ter as to whether there are any plans or intentions that he is presently aware of, or that his executive director of Winnip eg Region has, to retire additional staff and have them appear in the adjusted vote as they did last year? Any plans to in crease the number of staff in Winn ipeg Region? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Decrease? MR. D. ORCHARD: In crease. 1241 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, I'm sure that it will be in creased if we're successful in what we're trying to do. We're trying to deinstitutionalize as much as possible in the mental in stitutions.

We're trying to promote the service and all the members of the commit tee were unanimous in suggesting that, in fact, we are going too slow in this. If tha t is the case, we ll, then we'll need more community workers in the mental health field, for instance, and also the same way, if we try to promote and incr ease and improve home care, we'll need more

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 staff there. So I would think that, yes, we said that we want to be very careful before we talk - it's fine to talk about deinstitutionalizing and closing beds in certain cases and not building extra beds, but you have to make sure that you can provide the service for these people, and some of them would be in the commun ity, and so on, and then we would need the staff. I can't tell you how many more we will need, but there would be staff. Now that could change.

There's a possibility that some of them will work with the communit y, but what is kno wn now as the regional staff could very well be inc reas ed; but what I said, there is no in crease due and there's none foreseen , any increase due to the reorganization in Winnipeg. MR. D. ORCHARD: So, Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter is saying that he considers it a possibility there will be additional staff, but he is saying that it won't be in supervisory or management positions as a result of the reorganization in the Winnip eg Region from a single region to th ree regions? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Right. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. Mr.

Chairman, on Tuesd ay, the Min ister gave me a numb er of flow charts on the new reorganiz ed Winnipeg Region, which included a flow chart for Winnipeg South, Winnipeg West Central, Winnipeg North, Winnipeg Central Services, Winnipeg Region Service, etc. These were han dwritten with explanations underneath. The comment I made was, is that the best that you have after proceed ing to reorganization? The Min ister ind icated that was the case. Has he got a formal printed chart that might replace these today? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I said that was in this form because it wasn't necessarily the final charts, that ther e could be some change. We want to discuss with the different communi ties and so on, and there could be some change. There has been some change where we're still in the process of organizing not only because of the change we did in Winnipeg, but because of the direction that we want and we hope that we could help take to be more involved in the commu nity. MR. D. ORCHARD: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I make the comment ... HON. L. DESJARDINS: Let me give you an example.

In the Winnipeg Central Services under the Executive Director, you have No. 4, the Supervisor of Prenatal Program, and there's discussions ongoing with hospitals and regi ons, and antici pated staff who will be decentralized by September of 1987 or so. It's not necessarily because of the change in - well, it isn't because of a change in Winnipeg. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to dwell on this point very long, but the Minis ter is saying that he's reorganizing and that's why he's got to have these handwritten pencilled-in organizational charts, and I don't know whether the Min ister is playing the game or whether his staff is playing the game, but there is available a Winnipeg Commu nity Health and Social Services telephone listing which has Central Services, Regional Operations - Winnip eg North, South, West, Central -that's available, that could have been made available the other day.

There is an organizational ch art which is identical to the ones they handed out in printed form, October 1, 1986. It has even the names of people in it; it has the central functions; it has Winnip eg South, Winnipeg ... HON. L. DESJARDINS: But that has changed, that's exactly the point. MR. D. ORCHARD: But it hasn't been changed, it's identical to here. There are the same kinds of - and we can go through it, if you wish. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, I haven't got tha t one that you're talking about right now, so I'm told that there's some changes.

What I did say at the time that question was asked of him in the afternoon, I said that I would end eavou r to get the information as soon as possible and that was done here, the staff that was here, and it was ready for that evening. I don't know what the point is. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well the question is then, if that is ... HON. L. DESJARDINS: If we have it, why wouldn't we give it to you? If we have it, we'll give it to you. MR. D. ORCHARD: That's the point I'm making. If these are available . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'm told that there's some changes from there. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, I've gone through them in the last two days, and if there's a change, it might be one change in there. I've gone through it and they're the same. Mr. Min ister, I don't know who's responsible, but this would have been very simple to photostat. I don't think there's anything in here that isn't on the sheet, but yet for some reason it wasn't made available to you or to myself, as was this revised March 11 telephone listing which has most of the people, the regional offices, etc., etc. It would have made it much clearer, much simpler, and the Minis ter would have unde rstood. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Before we leave that - I was asked for information, and I gave the best information available. That chart that he has there was a year previous to that. That was used in discussion with the staff. There have been some changes in some of the ways that they're reporting that. What advantage would I have in giving you exactly the same thing in a written form, if I could have given it to you in that form? I don't kno w. I don't know what games I'm playing, or I can be accused of playing, or staff is playing, if you're getting the same information. You say it's the same, well, all right.

Then why do you want to make a federal case out of this then? MR. D. ORCHARD: It maybe is a situation, Mr. Minis ter, where you have to ask your staff for information, 1242

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 because it exists and they don't give it to you. That's the point that you should take rather serious ly. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Every time I ask for it I get it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Uh-huh, in handwritten form when it's available printed. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, so what? MR. D. ORCHARD: So what? HON. L. DESJARDINS: We've got enough things to argue about without making a federal case because you've got something that is a handwritten form, and it is different, too. We could look through it if you want. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to deal with the services that an individual . . . current ly, Gene Kaprowy - and I hope I'm pronouncing the last name correctly - is one of two Com munit y Services supervisors in the Winnipeg North Region. Now it's my un dersta nding that Mr. Kaprowy has his Ph.D., specialty in behaviour modification, and his work, when Winnip eg was one region, was avai labl e throughout the whole region; it was apparently quite highly valued. It doesn't appear, as a Community Services supervis or, that his expertise, his uni que expertise in Winnip eg Region is being used.

Two questions: No. 1 - Is this a demotion or a diminution of services that Dr. Kaprowy can make available in terms of provision of mental health services? How is he able, as a Commun ity Services supervisor in Winn ipeg North Region , to continue with the same kind of assistance to all of Winnipeg that he did before? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I understand that he's still using his expertise, but the question would be better directed to the Min ister of Communi ty Services because that person works for that department, is respon sible to that Min ister. As you know, with the reorg anization, Mr.

Robson is responsible to answer in the city, and then the person, John Ross, from the Community Services, then has the people in the rural areas. Both our staff and Community Services report to him for the single unit deliver y. That question would be better asked of the Minis ter of Community Services. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I think that's not quite correct, because as the Minis ter has just said, John Ross is the Commu ni ty Services Executive Director, a counterpart to Mr. Robson. His expertise, his area of control is rural Manitoba. If I go to the Communi ty Services Minis ter . . . HON. L.

DESJARDINS: His expertise, that's not area of control. MR . D. ORCHARD: His area of contr ol is rural Manitoba. If I go to the Min ister of Community Services and I say to her: Will you answer a question about Dr. Kaprowy? She's going to say to me: No, I can't, because I'm only responsible for rural Manitoba and he's in the city. Your executive director, sitting beside you, is the person who has the responsibility to supervise Dr. Kaprowy's operation. I think it's appropriate that we answer the question. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That's not correct. He reports through Mr.

Robson, and through one of the regional directors also. That person is pla ced there and paid by the Department of Communi ty Services and doing their work. We're working together to give the deli very, and it is coordinated and so on, but that's still the responsibility of the department, the same as the staff in the rural area, that is paid through our department. It is actually our respo nsibili ty in deliv ering our programs. That person is delivering programs for the Minis ter of Community Services. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Is the individual delivering of any programs in terms of mental health supp ort a responsibility of the Min ister of Health as well? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The main reason why it comes from there is that he's working and reporting on mentally retarded mostly. We don't exclude mental health. There might be some, but there's very little of it. We're trying to work together. So that person is the respon sibili ty of the Min ister of Communi ty Services in delivering service mostly of mental retardat ion. MR. D. ORCHARD: So, in other words, Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter is saying don't ask the question here? HON.

L. DESJARDINS: I'm saying that you would be getting a better and truer answer by asking the Minis ter responsible. I have enough in my department. I'm not trying to evade the . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: Let me clarify that Dr. Kaprowy's reporting structure is to your regional director, one Sue Hi cks; thr ough her to your executive di rector for Winnipeg, one John Robson, who's sitting beside you; neither of whom have any respon sibility or will not be in Communi ty Services Estimates to answer questions; and Mr. Kaprowy does not report to Mr. Robson, who will be with the Community Services Minis ter. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I didn't say he doesn't report to him; I didn't say that at all. I think that it was clear. At one time we had one person that was responsible for the two departments, one person. Then that was divided and we had one each - the Community Services had one and we had one. Then what we did to coordina te that better, with some of the problems that we had - that's when we reviewed and changed Winn ipeg - we agreed that a person reporting to our department, Mr.

Robson, would have the resp onsibili ty, the people reporting to him, and to coord ina te the programs of both the Commun ity Services and ours, but both the departments, not just ours in the urban. MR. D. ORCHARD: Right. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Then that Mr. Ross would have the responsibility to coord ina te and deliver. These people are meeting with the others - we're meeting together, we're trying to work together - but 1243

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 they have the resp onsibil ity, they are paid by a department and they are bringing in the expertise and they are delivering the service that is the responsibility of each department. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. HON. L. DESJARDINS: But it is coord ina ted by Mr. Ross. I'm not saying that there is no question that can't be answered, I'm saying that you were asking about the value - was he doing what he was trained for and the expertise and I said, you'd be better to ask the Minis ter of Community Services. It is her program, after all. MR. D. OCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Minis ter just answered the question and then turned it around and unans wered the question in two minutes. You just finished telling me that Mr. Robson coordina tes the services for both Com munit y Services and th e Department of Health. And by coordinating the services, I would assume from that, he could answer the question as to whether Dr. Kaprowy's current position as a Community Services supervisor . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Was he using his expertise? And I answered, yes.

But I said if you want more information, better in formation as to the qualif ications of the man, ask the Minis ter responsible; and Mr. Robson will be here, if it's the wish of the Min ister of Commun ity Services, while that is discussed also. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, that's fine. The Min ister is going to put that

part icular question off to Communi ty Services when his executive director has the responsibility for program deliv ery, personnel, etc. etc., in Winnipeg Region for both departments, because I belie ve that is the current organization and it makes for little efficien cy, in my estimation, to have your regional director paid by your deparment, supervising the program del ivery in the City of Winnipeg, to come to Community Services Estimates to ans wer questions tha t he could answer right here tod ay. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: All I made is the suggestion that if you wanted more details about that person because you seemed to ind icate that he had certain qualif ications and you wanted to make sure and I said that's an empl oyee of another department. Yes, as far as we're concerned he is taking advantage of that, he is making good use of his qualification. I answered that immediately. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. Throughout all regions as he did before. HON. L. DESJARDINS: He has the responsibility of training th ree people that are working in each region, th ree in each region also, he's working with the other regions ... MR. D.

ORCHARD: So, we've got a regional ind ividual providing services to all regions and Winnipeg. HON. L. DESJARDINS: In a sense, if you call training people, yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, there were three other individuals under the old single Winnip eg syste m: Rachelle Hamelin, Elaine Kelln, Dianne Hutchison. They were supervisors at Continuing Care under the old single Winn ipeg Region and were providing supervision for resource coordina tors, etc. etc.

Now, they've all been redeployed , I'm led to believe, as resource coordinators, i.e., the people that they were supervising at Continuing Care, as supervisors at Continuing Care. Is that correct? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, that's correct and there are some that could be affected with the assess ing of the new jobs. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. That was my next question. Obviou sly, moving from supervisors at Continuing Care down to resource coordinators, it was in strict terms a demotion? HON. L. DESJARDINS: It was. When there's reorganization, it was a lower class cla ssification, yes. MR. D.

ORCHARD: And were their salaries affected, Mr. Chairman? HON. L. DESJARDINS: So far their salary hasn't been changed. There is, I say, a strong possibility that it could be reclassified lower and there is a possibility that it could be red circled. That is being looked at and they've all been advised that this is taking place. MR. D. ORCHARD: Can I ask whether two former area directors under Winnip eg Region, Avis Grey, Bob Rey, have taken over the responsibili ties of supervisors at Continuing Care, i.e., the positions vacated by Hamelin, Kelln and/or Hutchison? HON. L.

DES JARDINS: Yes, they are reg ional Continuing Care coordinators. They competed for that job and got it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, was that also a demotion because they were area directors under the previous Winn ipeg organization? Were their salaries affected and are they red circled? HON. L. DESJARDINS: It is the same classification as the jobs they had before. One of them applied for regional director, did not get it, the other one did not app ly. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Cha irman, under the old Winnip eg single regions, were there, I hope I've got the clas sification right, were there six in total, HS 6 classifications of staff? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, there were six area directors at that level. MR. D. ORCHARD: And are there three now? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, the th ree are regional directors and there is no area director, as I said, tha1 the regional Continual Care coordinator was at the same level as they were when they were the area directors 1244 l e

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 MR. D. ORCHARD: How many HS6's are ther e now under the new Winnipeg Region? HON. L. DESJARDINS: There are th ree, the job is classified as a 6 and the incum bent is a 6. There are others, the incum bent is a 6 in the job. That's the one I'm talking about The job might be classified lower and that's the one that they've been notified. That's the one that we're looking at the possibil ity, at least in some instances, of red circling. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. So, that right now ther e are only th ree jobs in the reorganized Winnipeg Region that are filled by HS6.

Were those jobs comp eted for, the th ree positions that are currently HS6? HON. L. DESJARDINS: There were three jobs, regional Continuing Care coordinators, one of them was a direct appointment of Lynne Fineman, who was the coordinator of Continuing Care, and the other two were advertised and there were competitions for them. MR. D. ORCHARD: So, then are you ind icating that Lynne Fineman was an HS6 under the old Winnipeg organization. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, and she remained a 6, at the job that she had. MR. D. ORCHARD: And the other five, presuma bly, were given the opportunity to compete, to remain an HS6.

Is tha t a correct assumption? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, and two of them were confirmed in tha t position, two others and Lynne Fineman. MR. D. ORCHARD: In the two others, we'll just simply reconfi rm. They were HS6 and were reconfirmed as HS6? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, they applied for the job, got it and that job was a 6, and they were already 6. There was no change in that classification. MR. D. ORCHARD: And the other th ree are currently red circled then. Or possibly red circled. A couple more staff questions.

Judy Portman was a former supervisor of Public Health Nursing under the old Winnip eg Region; and Lorna Feindel was supervisor for Sexually Transm itted Dis eases un der the old Winnipeg Region. Are those two people basically switched in positions so that Judy Portman is now STD supervisor and Lorna Feindel is the Public Health supervisor? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The jobs are rated the same way and they had had, over the period of time, both had responsibility in STD and general Public Health. MR. D. ORCHARD: Was the job swap accomplished thr ough a competition, for the job changes? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: There was, in most ins tances, the staff, the members, the people who had these different positions were asked for their preference and in most instances, they tried to accommodate them and place them in these positions. That's the way the positions were made, in many ins tances. There wasn't an open competition on every single job again, because it wasn't that you were firing everybody and rehiring everybody. Some of the jobs were pretty well the same thing, as had been done before. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Mini ster has ind icated, "in most situations." In these two specific situations, Portman and Feindel, were they put in their respective switched supervisory roles at their own request? HON. L. DESJARDINS: There was one position tha t nobody gave as their preference. Nobody wanted to put STD as their preference, but then somebody accepted, when the two couldn't be placed in the same position. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, are you saying then, Mr. Min ister, that it wasn't necessarily by choice that the supervisor of STD has that job? It wasn't tha t individual's choice? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: It wasn't her first preference. That's correct. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then was it suggested to that indi vidual that she should take on that particular job by her regional director or the executive director? How did she come to have that job if it wasn't her preference? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That person met with the executive director who had a discussion with her and talked about the challenging role, the challenging job and so on and she accepted. It hadn't been her first preference, but she accepted it quite willing ly. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I can't comment, but it does seem to be an int eresting change in reorganization, where you take a person who was supervisor of Public Health Nursing and swap positions with the supervisor of STD and switch those two positions. It would seem to me that expertise would have been there for each, in their former positions. However, I won't dwell on that. Mr.

Chairman, going to the organizational charts of the th ree regions, as we go through the three regions, you will find that in Winn ipeg South and Winnip eg West Central, the Public Health supervisors are responsible for the supervision of home economists, audiologists, volu nteer coordina tors, services to seniors, etc., etc., but in Winn ipeg North, this is done by your medical officer of health. You have a Public Health supervisor there, as well, in the Winn ipeg North Region.

My question is: Why, in two regions are the supervision of public health nu rses, home economis ts, volu nteer coordinators, audiol ogists and services to seniors, why are those kinds of functions done by supervisors of Public Health in two regions and by a medical officer of health in Winnip eg North Region, when you still have a Public Health supervisor there? 1245

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 I might point out, Mr. Minist er, that ther e are on ly, to my kn owledge, two medical officers of health in the entire Winnipeg Region, and you've got one basically coordinating volunteers, supervising home economists, audiologi sts, etc., and the concern I would have is, are you adequa tely utilizing your medical officer of Health in that capacity? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That has been existing for awhile. It's not necessarily just doctors who will be supervisors. That has been discussed with the group also, and that has been encouraged in certain areas.

You might have people that will supervise in an area that might be nu rses or it might be a doct or. I don't think there's anywhere it's written in stone that it has to be a doctor or a nurse or somebody to supervise a certain group. They're encou raged to work together as much as possible, and at times you have people that would work well, for instance, a Public Health supervisor and one of them is a Health educator in there who is working well. It's a group working togeth er, not necessarily that you have all the doctors supervising or the nurses. It could be a social worker, in some instances. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the point I'm making is that basical ly, according to your flow charts that you gave me, that you have supervision of public health nurses, home economists, audiologists and volunt eer coordinators. That's the responsibility given to Public Health supervisors in two regions but given to a medical officer of health in the third region. My question simply is: Is that adequately using a medical officer of health, one of two you have in the Winnipeg Region? Is that adequ ately using his talents?

It would seem to me that if Public Health supervisors are able to carry it out in other regions, why not in Winnipeg North? You have the Public Health supervisor there. And the further question: Is this a new responsibility to that medical officer of health under reorganization that he didn't have under the old Winnip eg Region? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, it's a new responsibility for tha t individual. It is something that he wanted to to. He sees that as a challenge and it is a small, very small part of his responsibiliti es. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, can I ask the Minister whether staff for provision of mental health services, are those staff equal or relatively equal in all regions of Winnipeg? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Which ones? MR. D. ORCHARD: Mental health, provision of mental health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I think I an swered that before that there were more of them in Winnipeg West Central because there were more clients in that area also. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Now, going to the three regions, you've got 107 staff Winnipeg South, 120 Winn ipeg North, 137 Winnipeg Central, West Central, can you break out the mental health worker component in each one of those? HON. L. DESJARDINS: There are 8 of them in Winnip eg North, 7 in Winnipeg South and 28 in Winn ipeg W�st Central. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the question I have then is: Does tha t adequately reflect the client populations in each region so that you don't have, for instance, Winnip eg West Central with 28, even with an incr eased staff, having a higher caseload than other regions? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Partly so, but also it reflects that some of the programs tha t are available for the whole city are situated in there and that staff is included. For instance, the independent living program is there and day program clinic and that staff is counted in the 28. MR. D. ORCHARD: And that staff provides services for the whole Winnipeg Region? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, in those programs, yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: So, are roughly , outside of staff that's providing services to the whole Winnip eg Reg ion, are the caseloads per mental health worker roughly equivalent in all th ree areas? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: This is something that is being adjusted. It is still, they're trying to balance it. It was at first assigned as per what was done before and that's being changed and we have another while to go. There's probably more staff, a larger caseload in the Winnip eg West Central. That's in the process of being adjusted. MR. D. ORCHARD: So then is the Minis ter saying that there is an overload, if you will in Winnipeg West Central which is being addr essed in terms of staff complement? HON. L.

DES JARDINS: I want to make sure I und erstan d, you said ov erloaded, it wo uldn' t be overloaded in the Central, it'd be the others that would have more cases. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, so that Winn ipeg South, Winnip eg North are the ones that . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Might have more staff per case, for the cases that they have. MR. D. ORCHARD: So that they have less patient load per staff in Winnipeg South and Winn ipeg North than in West Central? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Wait a minute, wait a minute, I think I'm confused.

The caseload in Winnip eg West Central is slightly high er, that's right, it's slightly higher in the central than the others and that's being adjusted at this time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, in the various regions, we've got for instance the central services 1246

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 located at 1200 Portage Avenue. Now, in addition, in Winnipeg North we have presumably the main office on Court Avenue, where the regional director is. We have two satellite offices - Hend erson Hig hway, Bond Street. Winnipeg South, we've presumably got the main regional office at Tuxedo Boulevard. And then we have two satellite offices, one on Pembina High way, one on Provencher . For Winnipeg West Central, presumably the central office is on Evanson Street with the satellites at two addr esses on Portage Avenue. Can the Minister indi cate who runs the satellite offices?

It's understandable the regional director is in the main office, wno is responsible for management function in the six satellite offices in the three respective regions? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The responsibility is still the regional director, but in each one of these offices one of the supe rvisors has the responsibili ty as the, let's call it the resident director, to make sure that it's opened properly and whatever has to be done. These people are professionals who work, you know; they don't have to be pushed every minute either.

They have their responsibilities but th ere is an acting, if you want to call it, director who is one of the supe rvisors in that office. But the main res ponsibi lity is still the responsibility of the regional director , of course. MR. D. ORCHARD: The reason I pose the question is, on the telephone listing which is revised for March 11 , '87 - I have to assume is reasonably current - in Winnip eg North Region you have seven of your staff with the regional director on Court Avenue and you only have one staff out of respectively, Henderson Highway and Bond Street.

And to give you an example, my colleague, the MLA for River East attempted to contact the individual Continuing Care supervisor who was at 1400 Henderson Hig hway and over a period of several days got bounced back and forth between the office at Henderson Hig hway and the office on Court Avenue and was not able to track down that individual. I don't know whether that was a unique circum stance for the particular time she was trying to contact her or whether that would be what a lot of people have experienced . In terms of Winnipeg South, you have five, that's a little better and more evenly staffed.

You have five with the regional director - two on Pembina Hig hway, th ree on Provencher Boulevard. But in Winnipeg West Central, you have 10 staff with the regional director at the Evanson location, one at 1981 Portage and no one at 2000 Portage. Now my question is: Are staff assigned to work out of those individual satellite offices? Is tha t the way the regions are now organized? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That is correct. The offices are not all the same sizes. There are some offices, for instance, in Transcona and on Henderson Highway are small crowded offices with less people there, less staff there. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Now, would the Min ister then answer for me whether staff work out of a certain satellite office. Like, are staff working out of Pembina Highw ay, Provencher , Henderson Highwa y, Vaughan Street, either location on Portage Avenue? HON. l. DESJARDINS: That's correct. MR. D. ORCHARD: If staff are working out of th ose offices and particularly where you only have one individual in each case in each of those offices, and that's the case in th ree out of six - there's no one at 2000 Portage Avenue - who then supervises those staff?

Who takes phone calls that the staff worker is ill that day and won't be showing up? Are there secretaries ther e? Who keeps track of absenteeism? HON. L. DESJARDINS: It's done with the different supervisors and then there's clerical staff in some of these offices, and they'll get the message. You have that in departments, that you can't put all your staff in the same place and they still have respo nsibilities to somebody who maybe is not in the same building. It would be nice to have all equal places, but that's not always possible. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Like I've maintained from Day One - and the Min ister knows by the nature of the questions tha t I have serious reservat ions about this reorganization of Winnipeg Region, and I hope to be able to demons trate in the hour we have left the problems that he may not be aware of that are there. But let's deal with another area. You've got several of your regions where there are two, for instance - and I'll give them to you - two Public Health supervisors. There are two Continuing Care supervisors in, I believe, West Central. Let me just check that to make sure - yes, two Continuing Care supervisors.

You have two Community Services supervisors in West Central. Now when you have two identical individuals as supervisors in Continuing Care, in Community Services, in Public Health, who does staff report to? Do they report one day to one supervisor, the next day to the other supervisor? Do they all report to one supervisor and the other one is not needed? What happens? What is the reporting schedule? HON. L. DESJARDINS: It doesn't matter where they're situated.

I think that's one of the important things in this reorganization, that the staff have clearly one person who they report to, not one one day and then another one the other day. They report to one person, one supervisor. MR. D. ORCHARD: So, and let's use an example of the two Public Health supervisors in Winnip eg South. Does half the staff report to one and half the staff report to another? What's the circumstance? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: The one in the Winnipeg South, one is a nurse and the other one is more of a Public Health educator who would have, for instance, the home economist, audiologist, and maybe the coordinator of volu nteers reporting to that person. So there's no duplication as such or people not knowing who to report to, or reporting to one person one day, the other one the next day. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, then that begs the question: Why do you have doubled-up supervisors 1247

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 in most of your regions? That does appear to be duplication. That is the position that was put out, the concern I voiced last year when this whole reorganization was being proposed , that you end up, as you did in Communi ty Services with Children's Aid Society, with a duplication throughout the system in the regions. Now you not only have duplication within the regions, but you've also got within the region two supervisors of Commu nity Services, two supervisors of Continuing Care, two sup ervisors of Com munit y Services, Winnip eg North.

You've go t dupli cation throughout here between regions and within regions. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That doesn't mean a thing if you're not looking at volume. The supervisors are there to look at the volume and the work deliv ered. You can have any number of them. It could be too many or not enough. That could even change. We needed this kind of reorganization with the direction that we want to go, that we want to make communi ty health care an important part of the care that didn't exist in the past.

We want to get away from the institution as much as possible, and all yesterd ay, the day before, you made the point that's exactly what we should do with mental health people. It's going to be the same parallel, the same thing again. If you're going to provide some services as an alternative to the high cost and not necessarily the best service of institutions, then you're going to have to have a staff and the expert to do the work. It's in a large city, like you say, because it's the City of Winnipeg. It's got more than half the people of Mani toba in here, and you 're talking about three divisions.

They were talking at times of having more divisions and, because there has been that kind of reorgan ization, for instance, you say it's not going to work. Give it a try, give it a chance. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, as I pointed out to the Minis ter last year, this was the way Winnip eg was in the early 1970's, and it was switched to one region because the regional concept did not work. The Schr eyer admin istration made that change before the end of their term in 1977. The Min ister now is going back to the th ree regions.

The Min ister is also saying - I mean, I don't want to get into this argument now, because we've argued this out over the last we ek. You're talking about a coordination of Continuing Care where you've got a duplication within regions and between regions of Continuing Care supervisors. You've got two of them in each region, by the look of it. That's the same organization that was $8 million overbudget, and that's why I'm saying to you I don't believe you know the efficiency of how you're delivering services. And that's why I'm making these points with you.

You can defend them as you wish, and I don't expect you ever to admit there might be some problem. But I certainly hope that, by bringing them to your attention, you go away from these Estimates and ask some serious questions, as I hoped Mr. Mackling would have done in MTS over th ree years.

That's all I'm asking you to do, and that's why I'm putting these questions on the record tod ay, because you had a system that was tried in the early 1970's under the Schr eyer adminis tration, three regions in Winnip eg, was changed by the Schr eyer admin istration to one Winnip eg Region, is now changed by the Pawley admin istration back to th ree regions. The indi cation is that your staff morale is down. The supervisory . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: That kind of questioning certainly helps the staff morale. You're talking to a few people.

You're getting your information from a few - you've been doing that for two years. MR. D. ORCHARD: If this Minis ter wants to interrupt and get into a major deba te right now . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Any time you want. MR. D. ORCHARD: ... we'll talk about personnel, how they're treated, personnel who have talked to this Min ister, who have gone the proper route. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I challenge you to name tho se people who have talked to me. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, we'll get right into it right now if that's what you want. Mr.

Chairman, this Minis ter has ind icated to me, when I was concerned about Continuing Care and a 33 percent overbudget, that I was simply on a witch hunt and atta cking an indi vidual. That's what he ind icated. Now, Mr. Chairman, he said that if there are problems, all staff have to do is go through the proper channels, go to the supervisors, explain the problem and it will be dealt with. If he doesn't know the problem, how's he supposed to resolve it?

Well, a lot of people who are in the old Winnipeg Region, who are currently under review, who aren't red circled yet but may be, are some of the people who went through the legitima te channels of speaking to their supervisors and trying to get legitima te problems drawn to the attention of the supervisors within the Regional Services. Their reward for it was that they weren't successful in continuing their career. They were sidelined; they were demoted. They are under the concern of being red circled right now.

If the Minis ter wants an example, did the Min ister receive any commu nication from his Cabin et colleague, Mr. Lecuyer, and a letter from Mr. Cancilla on the issue of Bob Rey, who was an area director , and did Bob Rey come to see the Min ister? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Bob Rey came to see me, and he explained his concern. If you want to know the truth, there's one person we would have loved to see him apply for that job, and he would have gotten it. He chose not to apply . There was a group that came. There are two who came to see me, and they talked about discrimination. I checked into it.

There was no way that I could find that there was any discrimination at all. It is a very difficult thing for somebody to say there's discrimination because you don't speak English or because your skin is a different colour or a different religion, but to prove it is another case. Now you have some people - we talked about leadership a while ago. We're making some changes that we figure are needed, but you have resisted that. The people who have resisted that have gone to you 1248

Thursday, 23 April, 1987 and fed you some information. Automatically , you take it that everybody who is doing the change, you attack one person continually for two years. That's why I said, it was a witch hunt. You blam e tha t person for every thing, and you didn't say let's look at the situation and bring anything to the attention of - maybe that was unfair. You automatically say that all those who are resisting change are right and, any change at all, you're out to try to disprove it.

You are causing more trouble in that department than all the rest of the members of this comm ittee togeth er, because that is your style. You think that you can. make points. But there's a way of helping and working together on this and, if there's some thing, I will look at it with you or with any other members or with some of the workers. That doesn't mean automatically what they say is right. These people do not want the change, some of them. That was a very difficult case. It was very difficult with the change of some of the staff that we had there and with uniting the two departments.

And you've talked about changes and going back to the old changes. Well the best example is combining the Department of Health and Social Development. For years - and that was done under the same government and then gone back to two departments, and then gone back to one department and back to two again. One of the concerns that we had was, when you divided that department - and we're not criticizing for that at all - but when that department was divided, it caused some problems with some of the staff. We're trying to coordina te that and to get the people working together.

We could use your help, ins tead of your criticism constantly on something because you're fed some information that somebody hasn't got the guts to come and see me and give me that information. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I very much appreciate the Min ister's bluster, and he's trying to get out of a situation. He had staff come to him. He had staff go through the regular process channel, the channel that he suggested, and those people are sidelined. They're in danger of being red circled. He talked about an old boys' club.

What this Minis ter should do is look around him very closely and see whether indeed he is developing in his department an old boys' club. That's somet hing that he should start to check out, and not constantly flail away at allegations about some old boys' club that was causing problems and hence are feed ing information. The Minis ter's got himself a massive problem, that he doesn't appear able to even ask the right questions to get the answers.

I simply say to you, when you have staff present hand­ written organization ch arts when regular ones are available, when phone listings are available, I say the Min ister maybe isn't get ting full and com plete information. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Min ister is now telling us that maybe some of those people resisted change. That may or may not be. I haven't talked to all of those people who may be red circled, but there's a lot of shifting and changing going on in Regional Services. There is a morale problem. You can blame it on deadwood, you can call them deadwood. You can do anything you want, Mr.

Minis ter, but you have the responsibility to assure that things are proceed ing reasonably . Your respon sibility is that, because that is the only way you can assure that the dolla rs are being spent efficiently , and, No. 2, that the people who are to receive services are receiving them. You couldn't offer that assurance in Continuing Care, because your accounting system doesn't dedic ate that. I don't know whether you've got the same problem here in Regional Services. But, Mr. Chairman, while we're on the topic, I'll simply quote to you from your own Treasury Board Submission if I can find it.

Here it is: "The Executive Director of Winnip eg Region was appointed without compe tition," and I simply want to indic ate to you that he formerly was the regional director in the Central Region ." And your Treasury Board Sub mission says on Central Region: "The review team found ... "- this is for your internal audit presumably - ". . . that the records in this region were extremely poor and have not been upda ted since April 1, 1986. They were also advis ed that this had been the practice for the previous four years that