Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. s·e'ssion VERBATIM . REPORT FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 8; 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABl,E JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 6

February 8. 1974. The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speake~ in the Chair. HR. SPEAKFR: Order! Tape 121 RH - 1 I would like to welcome to the galleries today all visitors, but I would ~articularly like to welcome to the Speaker's gallery the Mayor df St'ephenville, Mayor Jean Fowlow , and in the galleries, we have thirteen grade eleven students from the Centennial Central High School in Vict~ria Cove, Gander Bay with their teacher, Mr. Frazer Lush and Mr. Frances Brinston. I would like to extend a cordial welcome to these persons as well. MR. H. R. V.

EARLE (Minister of Municipal Affairs): I think it is particularly appropriate today with the Mayor of Stephenville in the visitor's gallery to make an official announcement that the amalgamation of the towns of Stephenville and Harmon have been agreed by cabinet and that the details of the amalgamation are now being worken out.

In other words, the boundaries of the new town and all other details pertinent to this amalgamation are presently being worked out by the government and that the amal­ gamation and election for a new council which will in future enccmpass ~hat was formerly Harmon and Stephenville will be held as soon as possible. I am very proud and happy that this is being accomplished after a lot of negotiation and discuEsion with the people in the area and I feel that it will be of great benefit to the whole area of Harmon and Stephenville and I congratulate the people on their ~ecision in th~t direction. }ffi.

SPP..A.KF.R: Bdore I reco11:nize the honourable member for Port au Port : Fir5t of all I would like to mention, for the benefit of the member from St. Barbe North, I ~id not get a chance to do it yes­ terday eveninr,, th.,t his resolution was found to be in order and it will appear on Monday's order paper, Secondly, with reference to some remarks made by the honourable 395

February 8, 1974. Tape 121 RH - 2 Leader of the Opposition · yesterday concerning the alleged conduct of Chainnan of Committees and Deputy Speaker; I studied very carefully this morning the transcript of the remarks made by the honourable Leader of the 396 ... _

February 8, 1974, Tape 122, Pagel -- apb of the Opposition and found them to be, indeed, out of order. I refer to Beauchesne Standing Order (232), sub-section (2); "If a member wishes at any time to call in 9uestion the conduct of the Chairman in the execution of his duties, the proper course is to give notice of a motion to that effect in due course." I also refer to a

section in Erskine May, page (351), "Rules governing subject matter of motions." It says; "Certain matters cannot be debated save upon a substantive motion which admits of a distinct vote of the House.

Among these are the conduct of the Sovereign, 'the Heir to the Thronl' an<l other members of the Royal Family, the Governors-General of the Independent Territories, the Lord Chancellor, the Speaker and the Chairman of Ways and Means." Again, on page (417) of Erskine May it says; "Unless the discussion is based upon a substantive motion drawn in proper terms reflections must not be cast in debate upon the conduct of the Sovereign, the Heir to the Throne and other members of the Royal Family, the Lord Chancellor, the Governors-General of the independent Territories, the Speaker or the Chairman of Ways and Means." I would like to add that any references or inferences alluding to the conduct of the Chairman of Committees, the Deputy Speaker, in that capacity, in anyway in the future.except under a proper motion,will be dealt with most severly in this honourable House.

PETITIONS: HON. E.M.ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, if I may make a comment upon the Ministerial Statement made by the Minister of Municipal Affairs: May I thank you for your guidance ' on the other matter, Your Honour, I assure you that I shall be guided by it fully and completely. I, in behalf of my colleagues, Mr. Speaker. "·c•lcome the announcement that the government have decide<l to amalgamate Harmon, the Harmon Area, the former Harmon Complex and the Town of Stephenvil!e, into a new municipality. I am not sure if the minister 397

February 8, 1974, Tape 122, Page 2 -- apb gave us the name but I assume it will be called the Town of Stephenville and in due course and very shortly I hope it will become the City of Stephenville, an area growing very rapidly. We welcome it, Sir. In so saying though, I must regretfully add two comments. I do wish the government had seen fit to move more quickly on this matter. The council pressed, the people pressed AN HON. MEMBER: Is the honourable gentleman asking a question? AN HON. MEMBER: The honourable member is out of order. MR. ROBERTS: I am not asking a question. AN HON.

MEMBER: Then the honourable member is out of order. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, do I have the right to be heard without interruptions from "what's-his-name" over there? AN HON. MEMBER: The honourable member knows the name. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS; Secondly - MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I remind honourable members that any member speaking does have the right to be heard in silence and I request them to adhere to that rule. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can only hope the gentleman from St. John's West will show the same tender deference to Your Honour's rulings as I do, Sir.

As I was saying before I was so rudely and deliberately interrupted, the government should have moved more quickly. The council in Stephenville wished them to ioove more quickly, the people,speaking through their various organizations,expressed that wish. Mr. Speaker, if that is planning it would have taken God seven-seven days to make the world and not seven, the sort of planning the Tory Party indulge in. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) HR. SPEAKER: Order please! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) :!-IR. ROBERTS: Was it? It took Him six days and on the seventh day 398 -c

February 8, 1974, Tape 122, Page 3 -- apb Be rested. Is that what the honourable member is talking about? DR. T.C.FARRELL (President of the Council): About one mistake He made. MR. ROBERTS.: I see thirty, Mr. Speaker. Not only that, I see thirty mistakes the people o~ Newfoundland made. Mr. Speaker, secondly; I do wish there had been some process, some formal process involved whereby the people of Stephenville could have been formally consulted.

I realize their elected body, the Town Council,which speaks for them spoke on this matter and I do not in any way take away from their mandate to speak or their right to speak but I do wish there had been some process other than a badly handled, according to the press, gerrymander not gerrymander not even gerrydoodle but a badly handled meeting,chaired, I believe by the gentleman from Port au Port. I do wish there had been a better process evolved I had expected more from a government that formerly made such a fetish about consulting the people.

Sir, those are two relatively minor points because the important thing is that it has been done and the right thing has been done. The people of Stephenville will welcome this and my colleagues and I welcome it also. MR. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, I too welcome the announcement of the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing that the amalgamation of the Town of Stephenville and the Hannon Area is imminent. It should be a legal fact within a few days, 399

February 8, 197/½ Tape 123 IB-1 The remarks by the Leader of the Opposition are typical of the Leader of the Opposition. In 1966 - MR. NEARY: On a point of information, Mr. Speaker. I would like to raise a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Ml!. STAGG: Your Honour I still have the floor. I am not yielding to the honourable gentleman. MR. ROBERTS: A point of order is always in order. MR. SPEAKER: Is the honourable member for Bell Island rising on a point of order? If so, would he state the point of order. MR. NEAPY: On a point of order, Sir.

My understanding, Sir, is that the rules of this House clearly indicate that a ministerial statement can be commented on only by the Leader of the Opposition or the leaders of the parties in the House and should not develop into a full-fledged debate. If so, Sir, then we all have the right at this moment, when the member for Port au Port is finished, to participate in the debate. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island is basically correct although there some leeway wa~ given to honourable members on this matter before.

I feel that perhaps the same should be done now as long es it is the feeling of the Chair that the thing is not abused. MR. ROBERTS: Since it is not a precedent,we will consent to allow the gentleman to comment. MR. STAGG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For the benefit of persons here who are not as well acquainted with the situation in Stephenville and the Stephenville areas as some of us are -, the Harmon area could have been amalgamated a long time ago. The year 1966 was when it was formally handed back to the Newfoundland government.

There was a period froM l 91i6 to 1971 in l-•hich the previous administration could have acted on that. Today is an auspicious occasion both from the point of view of amalgamation and indeed there is an new industry coming into Stephenville. The announcement came today. I helieve it is one of the reasons why Her Worship is in the capital cf.ty today, that the Labatt's ~rewery has taken over the Atlantic Brewery, Bison Brewery. We were certainly very pleased with this. We think that this is : an 400

February 8, 1974 'Tape 123 IB-2 indication of things to come, that the Stephenville area is certainly on the way up to be a strong economic unit of the West Coast and indeed of the whole province. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT CO~ITTEES: HON. WILLIA¥ W. MARSHALL (¥INISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): I ask leave to table the report of the committee appointed by the House of Assembly on rules, standing orders. and procedures. Of course, this select committee, Mr. Speaker, died with the first session.

There is probably really no need to reconstitute it because it will not make any difference to the report but I table it as a report anyway, Mr. Speaker. If Your Honour thinks that it shall be reconstituted, it will be. HON. T.A. HICKMAN (~INISTER OF .nJSTICE): I table the following regulations made under the Motor Carrier Act on June 5, 1973, December 11, 1973 and regulations made under the provisions of the Private Investigators Security Guards Regulations Act, January 3, 1974. NOTICE OF MOTIONS CAPT. E.W. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move the following resolution: "To move that this House regrets the failure of the government to develop and to implement a comprehensive progra11D11e for the development of our fisheries including in particular measures for the conservation of our marine resources and urge the govern~ent to develop, make public and implement such a comprehensive programme immediately." ~. ¥ORGAN: I giye notice that I will no tomorrow introduce the following resolution: ·

WHEREAS foreign fishin~ vessels are extensively fishing on the fishing grounds known as as the Hamilton Banks; AND

WHEREAS the Hamilton Banks are the spawning grounds for species of fish commercially caught by Newfoundland fishermen; AND

WHEREAS it appears that stocks along Newfoundland, Labrador and the Eastern Coast of Labrador and the Eastern Coast of Newfoundland are being severely rerluced because of the fishing on the Hami~ton 401

February 8, 1974 Tape 123 IB-3 Banks durinR the spawn1nR season; BF. IT TIIEREFOP.F. ~ESOLVED that this Legislature urge the Federal qovemment to make a strong case at the up-coming Law of the Sea Conference and at the up-coming I 402

February 8, 1974 Tape no. 124 Page 1 - MRW International Commission of North Atlantic Fisheries that at both these meetings a ban be placed on all fishing on the grounds,known as the Hamilton Banks,during the spawning season. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: HON. A. J. MURPHY (Minister of Social Assistance): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to answer a question that is not on the Order Paper. I took notice of it from the member for White Bay North and the member for Bell Island. It is with reference to any prosecutions under the new Social Servic~ Regulations. There were none to my knowledge.

There are many investigations going on, Sir, but to this date, I do not think there have been any prosecutions as such. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Would the minister inform the House when the vacancies on the St. John's Area Metropolitan Board will be filled? MR. EARLE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, actually I had to request nominations, as is required from the City Council, for the two members. They have now advised me of the two members of council they wish to sit on the board.

It is presently before the cabinet and as soon as it has been confirmed, the announcement will be made. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Hon. Minister of Education. Would the minister inform the House why slides for other <lepartments were charged under the Department of Education? MR. SPEAKER: I have to rule the honourable member's question out of order as it does not require an urgent answer and it should be placed on the Order Paper. · 403

February 8, 1974 Tape no. 124 :r-m.. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a questio~ to the Hon. Minister of Education. Will the minister inform the House specifically for what areas of education his department intends to seek DREE funds for capital construction? MR. SPEA¥ER: Order please! HR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what I have to do to appeal the ruling, Sir, but I have received two different answers Page 2 to the same question on two different days and I think the situation should be clarified. MR.

SPEAKER: I think I made it clear yesterday that the purpose of the whole ~uestion period is to ask questions which are basically of an urgent nature and require an answer almost immediately. Otherwise, they should be placed on the Order Paper. }ffi.. F. ROWE: Hr. Speaker, I submit that this question is of an urgent nature, Sir. Yesterday a question was asked to the Premier - MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The Hon. member for St. Barbe North is making a speech. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I wonder if I could direct a question to the Hon. Minister of Finance.

I would consider this matter to be fairly pressing, Sir, fairly urgent. Would the minister give the House some details of the agreement that was negotiated with the Barvarian Brewery, I think it is Labatt's, to take over Bison Brewery at Stephenville? I would like for the minister especially to tell us what has happened to the outstandtng taxes that are due the 1 province by Bison Brewery? HO~. J. C. CPOSB L (Min is t er of Fi nance ): Mr. Speaker, this question comes as a surprise and a shock. The honourable member is asking an embarrassing question.

Since he has asked it, I suppose I have to harp back to the past and answer him. The position, Hr. Speaker, in connection 'With this is: It was announced today that Labatt' s had acquired assets of the Bison Brewery-at Stephenville, th3t ill-starred adventure,and will be operating a brewery at Ste~henville. 404

February 8, 197.4 Tape no. 124 Page 3 Now in c011nection with that, the llouse will remember that .a number of yea.rs ago, when the last administration were still in office they failed to collect from Atlantic Brewering Company Limited an amount of (I cannot give the e~act figure) $410,000, that Atlantic Br.ewering should have paid the government , the Newfoundland Liquor Commission,in commissions on beer sold. Atlantic Brewering, the House will remember, paid none of that, although they were supposed to pay it monthly. In any event,whert Atlantic Brewering went out of business, the amount was still oWing 405

February 8, 1974 Tape No. 125 NM - 1 to the government which has acted negligently and improperly in not collecting it, despite the efforts of the then Minister of Finance. When Bison Brewing Company Limited took over the assets from the creditors of Atlantic Brewing, or from the persons who had a trust deed, it was announced in this House by the then Premier, who was Mr. Smallwood as I recall - AN HON. MEMBER: That is not answering the question. MR. CROSBIE: I am answering the question, yes. It was then announced I Mr.

Speaker, that Bison Brewing Company Limited had agreed with the government to repay the amount of four hundred and some odd thousand dollars over a period of ten years and that they would give the government revenue bonds and that this amount would be paid out of revenue. Unfortunately after we assumed office and investigated that whole matter, it turned out there was no agreement between the government and Bison Brewing Company Limited that had any binding effect whatsoever, that Bison Brewing would repay this amount of $410,OOO,approximately.

Although we tried to pursue the matter and have the revenue bonds forwarded to us, that was never resolved and our legal advice when Labatt's said they were interested in acquiring the Bison assets and the question arose in connection with the $410,000, is that we had no cl~im against Bison Brewing Company Limited at all in connection with the $410,000. Sc the simple position is that the $410,000 negligently left uncollected from Atlantic Brewing will always remain uncollected and the matter therefore is not any part of the arrangement between Labatt Brewery and Bison.

Now in connection with the purchase by Labatt's from Bison, we have said that there would be no sales tax exemption. It is not our policy to grant sales tax exemption. They are paying sales tax on the assets that they are acquiring from Bison. We have also told Bison that they are not having tax exemption. When Bison originally 406 ..

February 8, 1974 Tape No. 125 NM. - 2 purchased the assets froru Atlantic Brewing, the then administration of Mr. Smallwood promised them a sales tax exemption. They never paid any sales tax. But that was never carried into effect and we have said we are not carrying it into effect and we have insisted that that sales tax be paid, and that will also be paid. So we will be paid the sales tax that should have been collected when Atlantic Brewing sold to Bison Brewery. We will collect sales tax now on the transfer of the assets but the four hundred odd thousand dollars will never be collected.

It could not be collected now from Bison because we have no legal way of getting it from them and they did not volunteer to pay us the $410,000. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, just as a matter of curiosity, to at least give me the feeling that there is no conflict of interest here, I personally thin~ that $400,000 could be collected. Certainly I would like to know if the honourable minister is still connected with that brewery in any way, I think it was Bavarian Brewery. MR. CROSBIE: That has no urgency. MR. NEARY: This is urgent, Mr.

Speaker, I want to find out if there is any conflict of interest, why this $400,000 is not being collected. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, we are used of course to the low and degrading habit~ of the honourable gentleman from Bell Island and if he wish to know about my connectio~ with anything at all, he only has to go down to the Auditor General's Office and go in and have a look at the statement that is filed there. The honourable gentleman might be able to collect the $410,000 fr0111 us if he would use his influence with bis friend, John C. Doyle,and have him pay the money voluntarily. We have no influence with Mr.

Doyle • The honourable gentleman may have as he is a close associate of the honourable gentleman. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, 1 do not know whom to direction this question to. Who is the Minister of Public Works on that side now, who is actin~i Well I will ask the Acting Premier, Mr. Speaker, if the Acting Premier 407

February 8, 1974 Tape No. 125 NM - 3 can tell us if the government abandoned its idea of puttittg an extension on Confederation Building? AN HON. MEMD ER : Inaudible. MR.. NEARY: That is not a question for the Order Paper. AN HON. MEMBER: I was looking fo.r the Premier. I did not know ~ho was on duty today. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order Paper. I .suggest that it be placed on the MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Acting Premier tell us what kind of a deal is being made with Trizec, Sir, the persons who are going to put up this building downtown to rent office space? And are public ten,ders being called? This is urgent, Sir, because 4CU

February 8, 1974 Tape 126 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: my understanding is that this is apart of the deal - MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The honourable the member for Bell Island is proceeding to make a speech and I will rule him out of order. The question that he just asked could be placed on the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, they will have the building up before we get the answer. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the member for Bell Island is out of order. The Hon. the.Minister of Mines and Energy: HON. L. R. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): Mr.

Speaker, in reply to a question raised by the honourable member for ~ell Island yesterday, asked previously - Mr. SPEAKER: Order, please! If the honourable Minister of Mines, _Agriculture and Resources would carry on. MR BARRY: I was trying to stand up, Mr. Speaker, with the Leader of the Bouse - MR SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Energy can answer the question by leave of the House. Does the honourable minister have leave of the House to answer the quetion? It is agreed. Agreed! MR.

BARRY: The honourable the member for Bell Island asked a question relating to the disposal of funds on the sale of houses on Bell Island formerly owned by DOSCO? MR. MURPHY: This should be interesting.Is it like the assets? MR. BARRY: Whether or not the funds are still retained by the St. John's Housing Corporation? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Ninety-nine houses belonging to DOSCO on Bell Island were acquired in the name of the St. John's Housing Corporatio •n. In November 1969 the administration, maintenance and/or disposal of all houses with the except of the staff house,was transfered from the St.

John's Housing Corporation to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. MR. MURPHY: In 1969!' 409

February 8, 1974 Tape l2t> .t'K - L MR. BARRY: In 1969. At the time of the transfer the balance of funds left with the St. John's Housing Corporation amounted to $38,690.66. This amount was reduced by $7,5~0 which was paid to the Bell Island Community Fund in accordance with Para (5) of a Minute of Executive Council - 421-71, and represented the proceeds of the DOSCO guesthouse. Interest earned on term deposit receipts has increas~d the fund to $35,560.57 which is still retained by the St. John's Housing Corporation. Officials inform me that on the instructions of the former Chairman of the Corporation, Mr. O.L.

Vardy, the balance of funds were not transferred to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation at that time. As I understand it,the instructions were that these funds were to remain with the St. John!s Housing Corporation indifinitely until instructions were received to the contrary and, of course, .instructions were never given. The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation also have monies on hand from the Bell Island houses as follows: $5,058.10 obtained by way of rents; $1,200 received on payout of a mortgage; and $25,100 realized from the sale of eight DOSCO properties for a total of $31,538.10.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation commenced repairs on the DOSCO houses. These have not yet been totally completed. The cost of repairs has not yet been fully established. It may be possible to go into the monieE that are on hand in order to carry out the cost of repairs. They may not be met from the rental received from the houses. Once repairs have been completed a decision will be made concerning the disposal of the balance of the funds in the hands of both the St. John's Housing Corporation and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. MR.

MURPHY: Who is the beneficiary of all these homes? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the people of Bell Island will be the beneficiary of it. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 410

February 8, 1974 Tape 126 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: A very wise thinking on the part of the former administration. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister would inform - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the member for Bell Island is not permitted to make comments regarding the answer given by a minister. If he should rise to ask a question,then I suggest that he do just that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am asking the minister a question.

I know Your Honour is clamping down but we do not have to have complete closure in this honourable Rouse. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! ~m. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the honourable minister if the government, if his department will consult with committees and with the people of Bell Island before they dispose of whatever the balance is going to be left in that account after the repairs of the DOSCO houses are paid for? MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, it is the policy of this government to always consult with the people involved, the responsible people,! might add, and I might note that there has been a very responsible council and new mayor elected on Bell !~land recently and there is close consultation with this mayor and there will continue to be close consultation and co 411

February 8,1974. Tape 127 RH - 1 operation with Mr. MR. FRED ROWE (St. Barbe North): Mr. Speaker, in view of the urgent and numerious requests that I have had from educators and members of school boards would the Minister of Education confirm or deny the statement that the Premier made yesterday when he said that no DREE funds will be sought for the purposes of education in this Province,which is quite contrary to what the minister had said the day before. MR SPEAKER: The honourable member's question should be placed on the order paper. MR F. ROWE: MR.

Speaker, the question is an urgent one AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: On his knees! The honourablP member for St Barbe North is out of order. The honourable Member for Fogo: MR WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If I may direct a question to the honourable Minister of Fisheries: It is a follow-up to the question I asked him the other day. I am sure he will not mind telling the House,what way does he propose paying the fishermen for storm damage? Will it be made payable direct to the fishermen or by other means? MR. H. COLLINS (Minister of Fisheries): Mr.

Speaker, there has been no change in the way in which fishermen were always paid with regard to compensation and storm damage and that is that the fishermen go to the supplier of their choice,and there are several of them around the Province now. After having established a claim, of course, in the first place they go to the suppliers, whoever they might be,and having ob­ tained the gear which they are looking for, then we will reimburse. the supplier what their provincial portion of the cost would be. MR. WINSOR: A supplementary: Do I understand the minister to say that that is the way it was always don~?

There is a deviation there from former practises, is there not? 'MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, maybe I should not say that is the way 412

February 8, 1974. Tape 127 RH - 2 it has always been done, but that is the way it has been done in recent years. One of the reasons for that is that we want to make sure, of course, that the money which is expended is going into fishery gear and there are certain kits which we insist on the fishermen buying.

I am not sure that the honourable member is not getting confused with the other programme, the Federal Government's Compensation for Lost Time Programme which we have nothing to do with but the Federal Government mails cheques directly to the fishermen - in this case ve reimburse the suppliers after having supplied the fishermen with gear. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to create an argument with the honourable minister but if I recall correctly in 1970 or 1971 payments were made direct to the fishermen and about, maybe eight or ten years ago it was done in the way the minister outlined.

If that is so then I think it is a retroactive step. It sure does not follow that plan nowt MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I would have to tell you that under advisement;to check into what happened eight or ten or five or six years ago. I can certainly do that but that is the programme this • year. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could I direct a question to the Minister of Rehabilitation.

Would the minister tell the House if all the grievances that occurred at Exon House a year ago have yet been settled and if any legal action has been taken as a result of a recent un­ fortunate situation at the Boys Training Home at Pleasantville? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Order paper, my eye. MR. SPEAKER: bid you sign the order paper? MR. NEARY: Who has been talking to Your Honour out in the corridors the last day or so? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member from Bell Island is out of order. 413

February 8, 1974. Tape 127 RH - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is what they would like, Sir. Obviously, we are not going to get any information today but I am going to try the Minister of Agriculture, Sir. Would the Minister of Agriculture tell the House what time the government intends to set up the Newfoundland Conservation Core as announced in the Throne Speech in 1972? MR. E. MAYNARD (Minister of Agriculture & Forests): urgent. It is not MR. NEARY: Not urgent. It is only two years old. There is nothing urgent with the minister. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Would the minister answer the question? MR.

MAYNARD: I cannot set a specific date on when the Conservation Core is going to be set up, Mr. Speaker. It is a matter relating to two or three different departments and has to be worked out over a period of t:ill!e. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, may I direct an urgent question to the Minister of Social Services. Would the Minister of Social Services inform the House if the forty dollar special allowance granted to th~ spouses of old age pensioners who did not quaiify for the old age pension is still in affect or not? HON. A. J.

MURPHY (Minister of Social Assistance): I will · check ~ith my department on that, I am not quite aware of the fact. I will check and .,._ 414

February 8, 1974, Tape 128, Page 1 apb I will let the honourable gentleman know this afternoon if he wants to or tomorrow. Would the honourable gentleman kindly make a note of it? My mind 7 it is hard to retain all the questions with 'all the excitement. If the honourable gentleman would kindly put it on the Order Paper or a bit of paper, anyth:f.ng at all just so I can have it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Do not let Peter Harrington throw the honourable member. MR. MURPHY: Peter Harrington will not throw me. SOME HON. }!E}ffiERS: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR.

NEARY: I wonder if the same minister would also get me some information as to what measures have been taken to assist senior citizens to try and keep them in their own homes, as announced in the Throne Speech in 1972? MR. SPEAKER: That question will be placed on the Order Paper. The honourable member for Bonavista North: MR. P.S.THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Fisheries could inform this honourable House as to whet percentage of the cost of the gear lost in storms in 1972, will be paid to the fishermen? That is, what percentage of the total value of a fisherman's gear will be paid? MR.

COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I think that is a question which could easily go on the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: No! No, Mr. Speaker, this is an ••• MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if I could get an answer to a question from the Acting Minister of Labour. I will wait for the minister to go back to his seat. It is my understanding, Sir, from high-ranking officials of the labour movement that applications are piling up before the Labour Relations Board.

Now I realize, Your Honour, and I think you will permit me to say this; that we are very conscious of the fact that the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations is 111 at the moment but there is an Acting MinistP.r of Manpower and 415

February 8, 1974, Tape 128, Page 2 -- apb Industrial Relations and I wonder if the minister could find.out if this is true; if applications are piling up and that the Department of Labour is gradually grinding to a halt? HR. BARRY: Applications for certification? HR. NEARY: Before the Labour Relations Board for certification. MR. BARRY: I can attempt it. I may not fully answer the question, Mr. Speaker, but the fact was that there were two members of the Labour Relations Board whose term expired as of either December or January, I forget the relevant date.

Our government, as is its policy, prior to appointing a second member, the employee representative to the board, we consulted with labour, specifically with the Newfoundland Federation of Labour and other union representatives and requested nominations from the labour movement for a suitable new member for the Labour Relations Board. Unfortunately there was some delay, approximately a week or two weeks delay in finalizing this consultative process which our government believes is very important with the labour movement and which we feel we have gone along way in constructing. A proper consultative process_ MR.

NEARY: Cut out the nonsense. AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down. HR. BARRY: As I understand it, the ••• SOME HON. '1-!EHBERS: (Inaudible) MR. MURPHY: Sit down and let the minister finish. MR. BARRY: Being a novice, as I understand the labour movement, I understand the proper consultative mechanism was not laid down. I ~ may be wrong. There may have been consultation prior to the I.W.A. decertification and so on. Maybe the honourable member can clarify it.

In any event, there was an approximate week or two weeks, delay in filling the membership of the board, specifically because we wanted to ensure that the employee representative was somebody in whom the trade union movement in Newfoundland could place great trust and confidence. A 1 -r­ 't J. V

February 8, 1974, Tape 128, Page 3 -- apb Because of this delay the Labour Relations Board missed one meeting,we understand. The honourable member may be correct but I have only had notice of one meeting being missed. These appoin~ments have now been made to the Labour Relations Board and I understand the normal process is occurring where the certification applications are being considered. I understand there are no problems as far as processing these is concerned. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the honourable minister be in a position to give us the names of the new appointees to the Labour Relations Board? MR.

BARRY: Mr. Fred Russell was re-appointed as the representative of industry, of the employer and a Mr. Pinsent from Grand Falls, Mr. Michael Pinsent from Grand Falls was appointed as the employee representative. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: I think the honourable the Leader of the Opposition adjourned the debate last night. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speak.er, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry the honourable member has to leave too because he will miss a better speech than he has given in a long time in this House. Mr.

Speaker, there are a few words I wish to say yet on the matter of the Address in Reply ~nd by leave of honourable gentlemen opposite I shall attempt to say them. Let me first of all, Sir, deal with the statements or one or two of the statements made yesterday by the gentleman from Labrador South. Let me say at the outset that I do not have the transcript of the honourable gentleman's remarks because, of course, Hansard is lamentably late again. We are into the sixth or seventh day -0f - no this is the sixth day of our session, Sir, and we have received Hansards for, I believe, three or maybe four days only.

Hansard is lamentably late. If we are this far behind already it will ~e probably much, much furth~r behind before the session ends. All that means is simply that 417

February s. 1974. Tape 128, Page 4 -- apb Hansard is ceasing to become a useful tool for members of the House in debate. In any event, all I know of the honourable gentleman's statement is what I read in the morning paper, I have not even seen the ••• AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS : That is what I said. Yes. It is true I did charge the Premier with misleading the House. He did mislead the House. All I know of the honourable member's statements is what I read in the "Daily News" this morning. The "Daily News" report was not lengthy. I do not even know if it was accurate or not.

I have not had the opportunity to chat with the honourable gentleman to see precisely what he did say. I am referring, of course, to his remarks, the ones which quite deservedly got some deal of publicity. Three, six, nine Mr. Speaker, let us have a quorum called to start the day. We are going to have fourteen on the other side throughout. MR. W.N.ROWE: Good idea. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Would the Clerk count the House, please? We have a quorum. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr.Speaker. I am ·very pleased. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I submit that it is a matter of grave, gross discourtesy to the House for an honourable member to call for a quorum call and then leave the chamber himself. It makes a charade, a fraud of the rules and Standing Orders of this honourable House. MR. MURPHY: Hear! Hear! MR. ROBERTS: Would Your Honour care to give us a ruling on that point of order, Sir, in light of the Standing Order's provisions on the point? HR. SPEAKER: The rules are clear on the point that an honourable member calls for a quorum and he need not maintain his place in the Rouse while the quorum is being counted.

It is up to the honourable member whether he wishes to demand that the quorum always be maintained by the group on the other side of the House. If he chooses to do this. 418

· February 8, 1974, Tape 128, Page 5 - apb of course, there is very little that the Ghair can do but enforce the rules as they have been to this point. SOME HON. MEMBERS: . (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, do I have the right to the floor or will this jackanapes over here - if he does not know the rules of the House, he should at least be quiet in the hope he learns. I may say, Sir, that the reason the energy policy of this administration is in such trouble was just shown quite graphically by the honourable gentleman. AN HON. MEMBER: Did you manage to read it? MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I have read it but the problem is with the honourable gentleman.would not only read it but understand it. I was saying that the gentleman from Labrador South, he made no specific charges as I heard. Although I did not hear him in the House, I did hear him on both television stations last night in an interview. What he appeared to be saying was that some of the senior civil servants were taking direction (and perhaps he could correct me if I misquote or misrepresent him on the point) from my colleagues and from me not from their ministers.

Was that essentially if the honourable gentleman wants to say a word I will yield, of course. MR. M.MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I think it is important that what I said be understood correctly. I will try to get it verbatim, the way I said it yesterday but I may be forgiven if it does not come out exactly that way in Hansard. I will not try to retract what I said yesterday. I pointed out the fact that lacking direct orders from their ministers, that certain members 419

February 8, 1974 Tape no. 129 MW - 1 of the civil service were, therefore, continuing to take directions from members on this side of the House. I believe I phrased it, "From former ministers who are now on this side of the House." That substantially is what it is. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman. Let us see who on this side is a former minister.

My friend from White Bay South was a former minister and will be a minister again; the gentleman from Labrador North; the gentleman from Fogo; the gentleman from Bell Island, all of them were ministers in the latter years or months of the administration of which Mr. Smallwood was the leader. I reject the charge on their behalf. I reject it categorically and emphatically. I really can say no more. I do not think I need say any more unless there are some specific instances of where it is alleged a minister or an ex-minister (I am sorry) has given an official an improper direction.

I am often in touch with officials. I spoke this morning, i.e., with the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs. As a matter of fact, I telephone to him and subsequently he telephones me. If there is a matter affecting my constituency, I ask him a factual question and in due course the gentleman very courteously, you know, gets me the answer. This sort of contact goes on. I would assume that all honourable gentlemen are involved in such communications with officials, particularly in view of the inaccessability of the ministry and their inability to answer in any event.

If you want an answer, you have to go to an official. Certainly I reject, merely for the record. If the gentleman wants a debate, let us have one at the appropriate.time. I reject quite categorically any statement that any of my colleagues and me - I was the Minister of Health for two or three years. I spoke with the Associate Deputy Minister of Health .this week. I asked a question about an ambulance programme aff~cting Port aux Basques, because some people in Fort aux Basques had been in touch me. The 420

February 8, 1974 Tape no. 129 Page 2 Lion's Club there said, you know such and such, could we get a new ambulance? I rang the Associate Deputy Minister, the man in charge of the progrannne and he gave me the information. I do think the honourable gentleman, if he wishes to pursue it further, should at some point be a little more specific. I invite him to be so if, in fact what he has said has happened has in fact happened. That is a very serious matter. It is very serious for the civil servants who have been taking direction improperly.

I quite agree with what he has said in the absence of direction from the ministers. Of course, anybody ( I suspect this was the real weight of what he was saying) who has had anything to do with the administration of this province in the last couple of years, Mr. Speaker, knows that the civil service is dithering and is leaderless at every level. I hear this from all over the province. I hear it from community councils, town councils, school boards, hospital boards, from almost every agency, body or individual that has any type of dealing with the government.

I did not say every individual, agency or board that dealt with the government. I said every type of dealing with the government, any type of proper dealing with the government,finds that this administration is hopelessly incompetent and it cannot run the affairs of this province. It has no direction, no leadership: things are being studied, The situation with the Labour Relations Board and that very weak and lame answer by the (Acting) Minister of Labour as an ... example; the fact that Mr. Pinsent and Mr.

Russell were not reappointed respectively for six or seven weeks really has nothing to do with the fact that apparently a backlog has built up and that the work of the board is falling further, further an~ further behind. We asked the question because we have had representations from responsible members of the labour movement who are more and more coming to us as people are - AN HON. MEMBER: I have not heard a word of it. 421

February 8, 1974 Tape no. 129 Page 3 MR. ROBERTS: I can quite believe the honourable gentleman has not heard a word of it. That may merely show how far out of touch be is. The mere fact that he has not heard of it is not proof of anything, except that he does not know what is happening. I am quite prepared to believe that. I do, Sir, reject quite categorically the inference, if inference there be,( the gentleman from Labrador South, I do not know if he made a specific charge. I do not think he did.) that any of us on this side are improperly interfering.

We have no rights, other than the rights of members of this House, any of us. We are all constantly in communication with officials. I am, Sir. Many of the officials are men with whom I have worked for eight, nine or ten years.- Many of them, I hope, are my friends. We have not asked them to do anything improper and I have no hesitation in saying that no official would do anything improper, even if he were to be asked.

I would think that the gravity of the honourable gentleman's charge is, of course, the very serious fact that the administration are not in command, that the civil service, the policy­ making and policy-implementing staff of this province, is largely leaderless and without direction and drifting because this government have failed to come to grips; have failed completely to come to grips with the problems affecting this province. AN HON. MEMBER: being set - They are following the good examples that are MR. HARTIN: It is quite obvious. MR. ROBERTS: The gentleman from Labrador South says that it is quite obvious.

He and I do not always agree on political issues. I think we can agree on this one. Now, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I may say a few words about my Constituency of Whi~e Bay North, the one in which some neophyte members of the House feel that because I happen to live in St. John's, 422

February 8, 1974 Tape no. 129 Page 4 I cannot represent the district. I may add that there are some members such as the gentleman from Burgeo, who live in his district and, therefore, cannot represent his district. The electorate will take care of that at the next crack. Mr. Speaker, let me outline briefly but I hope comprehensively some of the immediate needs, some of the problems, the public services which must be provided immediately in White Bay North. 'None of these, I suspect, will be new.

The nead has been there for many, many years, in some cases one hundred years, in some cases fifty years and in other cases, five, six or seven. All of them I believe have been brought to the attention of the ministers concerned, either by me, as the member, or by other bodies, the councils in the area, individuals or what have you. The most important need we have in White Bay North, Sir, is one whose solution lies in the hands of the gentleman who is Minister of Municipal Affairs and that, of course, is the provision of water and sewer facilities.

We have in White Bay North only four communities that can be considered to have adequate water and sewer. Mr. Speaker, the new Community of Bight Arm, which has no public debt, has water and sewer facilities. If they have a public debt, it is quite small. It was provided by the people themselves. Let that be recorded. They took their resettlement grant and bought their land serviced. Then the money that paid for the land went to hire the people to put in the services. It was a classic case of your hiring my wife, Sir, to do your washing and my hiring your wife to do the washing and everybody being fully employed.

The Community of Englee is now getting water and sewer. The system I believe is largely completed. That is a project that was begun during the Smallwood administration. The Community of Roddickton is in the same postion. They are making good progress. Mr. Speaker, there are only ~welve in the House on the other side. I would hope the whip will get a couple of more in. 423

February 8 1 1974 Tape no. 129 Page 5 AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: The Community of Roddickton is well-advanced in their project, Sir, getting water and sewer. They have a way to go yet and I hope the government will provide the extra money which is needed. The Community of St. Anthony - I suppose St. Anthony, Sir, has had public servic2s as long as any community in Newfoundland, except St. John's and Harbour Grace. There may be one or two that have had services for the same length of time but St. Anthony or parts of St.

Anthony have had water and sewer systems since the early 1910-1920 period, the early years of this century, Five or six years ago a proper public system was put in and most of the homes in that community now have the same access to services as do the homes in Stephenville or the homes in St. John's or the homes in Gander. That leaves, Sir, seven large communities where the government must take up the toil and the government must provide water snd sewer. In each case the responsibility rests squarely and fairly upon the shoulders of the Minister of Municipal Affairs, whoever he may be from time to time.

The Community of Conche, about five hundred people, have requested a survey. I am not even sure if one has been underway. The minister has been somewhat dilatory in answering his mail. The community council there are pushing to have at least a survey done that will give some indication of the costs and then we can go on.

The Community of Main Brook, Sir, six or seven hundred people, is now at the stage where the plastic pipes which they have in the ground have frozen and what water they get is because a $1,500 grant w~s prised out of the Department of Municipal Affairs and as a result a conveyance can be hired to take water around, 424

February 8, 1974 Tape 130 IB-1 It is the sort of thing that would be only too familiar to the gentleman from St, John's South because of his constituents in the Shea Heights area havinr, to put up with that for many years. St. Anthony Bight, the minister sent an engineer down last summer who told the people there that he would be back in a month or so and of course that is the last they have heard of him. The people of St. Anthony Bight are beginning to lose faith in the desire or intention of this government to do anything for them. That is the reason why. Quirpon needs water systems, Sir.

I do not know if it needs a proper sewer system. I sometimes think we can over-engineer these things in small co:mnunities. The tidal action is still the most powerful septic disposal method that we have. Subject to the en~in- eers tellin _g us, I think there is still sufficient capacity in the sea off most of our coasts to absorb what is after all bacterial organic matter. It is not inorganic. It is quite part of the natural cycle of what the biologists tell me is called an "echo system". I am sure Your Honour is intimately familiar with many "echo systems".

The community of Ship Cove, Sir, have written to the minister and have had the back of hi~ hand. They have had no satisfaction, no help, no hope held out to them. The community of St. Lunaire and Griquet have about a quarter or two-thirds of a system installed in the ground. It is incumbent upon the minister and his colleagues to find the 1110ney this year to finish that system. The community of Raleigh recently incorporated themselves after a public meeting and a very large turn out and a very heavy vote in favour of incorporation. The department are considering the requ~st. A survey has been done.

I believe it is a matter of $200,000 or $300,000 to provide 700 or 800 people in Raleigh with water, potable water and with sewerage systems. It may seem relevantly unimportant, Your Honour. Perhaps to many honourable gentlemen opposite it is of the utmost unimportance, particularly as each of them,I have no rloubt, has in his own constituency several communities that have needs 425

February 8 1 1974 Tape 130 IB-2 like this. Sir, in all of these communities ,almost every source of water available to the people is unfit to drink by any reasonable, medical and public health standards. 1 think the govemment should do some­ thing. 1 think the Minister of Municipal Affairs is shirking his duties. He is 11laking a cod of it. Now that the Government of Canada have ended the special area concept which they earlier adopted, I hope that the government will use all the money they are going to get from DREE and all of their own money and that we will see this year a start on each of these items.

My colleague, the Rouse Leader, the gentleman from White Bay South, is going to write to every municipality on the island to invite them to ask the minister for a share of the DREE money. 1 can assure him that my suggestion to the councils and people in White Bay North, vell, they too should get a share of this DREE 1110ney for water and sewer. I cannot think of anything 1110re urgent.

A government that can fling out a quarter, three quarters of a million dollars, fling it out on executive aircraft, that can find $500 to pay for a drunk over at Act III and can find $2-,800 for official entertaining by the Premier, that can find all of the other money that this crowd can waste, a government that does that, that can do that surely can find the money needed to provide people with water. It is not 111Uch to ask in this day and age, Sir • . It is very little to ask. All the talk of long range pl~ning will not put one drop of water in anybody's cup. KR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: "r· Speaker, the honourable member from Burgeo, I am not going to enter into a debate of wits with him because he is not qualified. I dovish, Sir, he would contain himself and I invite Your Honour to enforce the rules of the House with respect to the honourable gentleman from Burgeo. 1 have the right and I invite you to discipline him in the appropriate fashion. If Your Honour is impartial, as we are assured, Your Honour will apply the rules · 426

February 8, 1974 Tape 130 IB-3 impartially. I will not be interrupted by the ignorant jackanape from Burgeo. If he wants to make a speech at the appropriate time, Mr. Speak.er, he has the same right as does any other member but until then surely I have the right to say what I have to say without being interrupted by his likes.

I do not mind intelligent and witty comments, as some honourable gentlemen opposite occasionally proffer, I welcome those but the gentleman from Burgeo, Sir, has disgraced himself and his constituency and perhaps he should try to remedy it by staying reasonably quiet, As I was saying, Sir - and he might talk too - it was only today that the government have agreed, let it now be announced, to resolve the problem in Port aux Basques,and small thanks to the gentleman from Burgeo and La Polle.

If the council had not come in and pressed it, if Mayor Hardy and his council had not pressed it, the government would not today have agreed to provide several hundred thousand dollars to the community to go along with the money which Mr. Jamieson has obtained for them through OREE and federal funding programmes to provide that colllll\unity with the additional supply of water which they need. I welcome that and I hope devoutly and sincerely that the Minister of fofunicipal Affairs will try to do something for the people of White Bay North.

I know he has many demands upon him but, Sir, he sought office, he sought office very hard. Now let him work equally hard to discharge the burdens of the ·office which he sought. He owes it to these ·people. That is our chief need, Sir, but there are others. We still need roads built in White Bay North. I was glad to see the road being built to Monkstown, or the announcement that it was to be built to Monkstown and Paradise Sound because on a per capita cost, Sir, that road will be one of the more expensive ever built.

It is an interesting precedent to enable me to request that the government build a road to the communities of Croque and St. Julien's in Grandois. On a per capita cost the cost will be no larger than the road which the government have ~nnounced is ~oing to be built to link the Burin 427

Feb-ruaey 8~ 1974 Tape 130 IB-4 Peni119ula highway to the conmtD'lity of Monketown. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Whe-re 11!1 he getting his figu-res? MR.. ROBERTS: I am getting my figures, Si-r, from a very unreliable source but they are all that I can do. It is the press release issued by the gentleman from Placentia West. HR. BARRY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.·speake-r, .the honourable gentleman attempts to twist and misrepresent me. I did not say that they were too high.

What I did say was that they are higher than many roads that have been built and that they are sufficiently high to enable me to justify a request that a road be built to St. Julien's and Grandois. What ie fish for one mut be fish for another. I am glad the govemment have et the p-recedent because eveey time previously I went to the authorities be they my own colleagues when I was in the Cabinet -or be they the present minister or his predecessor, the word came back that the cost wa too high. Well, now I have my pre~edent and I m devoutly thankful to the gentleman from Placentia West.

While I am on it and I see the minister is in the Bouse, the Minister of Transportation, I wonder if he could let me know whether he would be willing to receive a delegation of citizens from Croque led by their parish priest, Father Murphy. I wrote to him maybe a month ago - I quess he has been very busy - but I do not think I have had an answer as yet unless it has come this day. MR. HICICEY: Maybe there is an answer provided. MR. ROBERTS: Well there may be an answer provided but it has not "(.. come up.

Maybe the mail system organized by the Department of Public Vorks is as bad as the rest of the administration. I have not had 1111 answer yet and I would very much like to have it because I am deeply grateful to the gentleman and I aw~it his answer which I assume will be favourable. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Did the gentleman say a month ago? MR. ROBERTS: I wrote about a month ago. I forget the precise date 428

February 8, 1974 Tape 130 IB-5 but it was about a month ago. Mr. Speaker, the road to Croque and to Grandois and St. Julien's leaves only one other large community or one other community really of any size without road connections and that is Harbour Deep, the most southerly community in White Bay North, I would like to see a road built there but I suspect the quickest hope of getting that will be through a forest access road programme because there is the Mooney Block. The Mooney Block is behind Harbour Deep.

It runs from Harbour Deep down in behind on the eastern side of the Great Northern Peninsula and down behind Hampden. A large area of timber I am told, as much as 2 million cords, ~uch of it over -mature, much of it rotting, hopefully it will be logged and hopefully in the logging the roads will be built and that will provide us with a way to get a road to Harbour Deep. Then too we come to the main highroad north, The gentleman from St. Barbe North and the gentleman from St. Barbe South share my views on that. That road must be paved and I hope and expect that more work will be done 429

February 8, 1974 Tape 131 PK - 1 this year. The Bon. Mr. Jamieson announced a week or so ago here in St. John's that the Government of Canada will be spending at leaet $10 million, providing it to the Government of Newfoundland for roads work this year. I hope a aubetantial portion of that goes on the Northern Peninsula Highway. I hope particularly that it will go on the northern end to link St. Anthony ·going west to the Cook's Barbour Junction and then turning to the aouth and coming down to Corner Brook. Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the Law Clerk and the member~-for Placentia East have a great deal to discuss but could they discuss it a little more quietly, Sir. The honourable gentleman for St. Jolm's Horth haR finished his tete-a-tete with the gentleman for St. Mary's. I have no doubt that they have much to discuse - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the people of Newfoundland give the orders in this House not the gentleman for Burgeo. Row as I have said, Sir, the main road ahould be paved and it should start in my view, work ahould start from St. Anthony coming fo the wes·t and around to the aouth.

That is the road over which children come into the area aened by the Vinland School Board. Children come from as far avay as thirty miles from Cook'• Harbour. It is also the road from the Airport, the only Airport on the northern part of the Northern Peninsula and the one in Hawke's Bay does not have the same sort of

schedule seTVice as does the one at St. Anthony. The one at St. Anthony also is the medical centre for, I suppose many patients fri:,m Goose Bay and Happy Valley are fl.ova to St. Anthony as their baae referral hospital. I can tell you, Sir, and I have been told this by the doctors concerned,there is far more danger of the11 auffering harm on the sixteen miles of road between the St. Anthony airatrip and the hoapital in the middle of the Town of St. Anthonj than there 1• in getting them from Northwest River or from Happy Valley as the case may be all the way to the St. Anthony airstrip. The road is abominable.

Nothing has been done on it. It is worse than the Burin Peninsula Highway ever was. I can remeinber when the 430

February 8, 1974 Tape 131 PK - 2 Mlnister of Justice used to ooze at every pour with sincerity and eloquence about the need to have the Burnin Peninsula road paved. Well Don Jamieson got it paved and I hope Don Jamieson gets the Northern Peninsula Highway paved. I hope also, Sir, that we will see road work go ahead this year in some of the larger towns in White Bay North. The Town of St. Anthony have their main road paved, thanks to the former administration. So did the Town of Raleigh. The Town of St. Anthony need their sideroads paved.

Now that the government have reinstituted this policy I have no doubt that the Town of St. Anthony will benefit from it and I invite the government to start sending the money down now. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: The byroads in St. Anthony. They would not be directly under the Transportation Department;! do not think. I think there is one under Municipal Affairs under a fifty/fifty programme. The byroads. The main road is done. The main road right around indeed - MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: The member for St.

John~s Centre will try and get the Topsail Pond Road paved, He only got it half done last year. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: The Town of St. Lunaire, Roddickton, Englee and Conche and Main Brook, Sir, and Goose Gove should all have their main roads paved. I again urge the government and invite them to do the work this year. If they want to nail me in White Bay North, Sir, if they want to defeat me that is the way to do it, not the way they are going ... at it, to try and punish the district for having dared to vote as they wished.

The way to do it, Sir, is to go down and say to the people; "Look, we will do it. Robert's and his crowd did not get it done. We will do it for you." So I invite them to do it. If they want to know there has not been a nickel of new construction - let us see ,the road to St. Carols has been done, or nearly finished. It was programmed in the 43-1

Fe'ltruary 81 1974 Tape 131 PK - 3 fall of 1971. It did not get finished. The honourable gentleman,! give him full credit,has finished the road, it i• almo•t into the c011111t1nity0 I mean the people re~lly have the use of it and I am told by him it will be finished next year. I accept that. Other than that I do not think there _has been a nickel in new construction money spend in White Bay North in two years or reconstruction 110Dey. What has been done is the normal maintenance,and God knows that is little enough. If I am wrong 1 I shall gladly say so but - .AN BON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: Oh, well I mean - I am thinking about paving but - AM RON. MEMBER: Inaudiblei MR. ROBERTS: Oh, I know but we saw how quickly we could get one into Hermitage District. They are sent by airmail,are they not? MR. RICKEY: Not really. MR. ROBERTS: No. I thought they were sent by airmail into Hermitage. MR. HICKEY: They are too heavy. MR. ROBERTS: They are too heavy. Well then Divine Providence must moved tbem into Hermitage in November month. MR. HICKEY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry. MR.. HICKEY: they are too heavy. MR..

ROBERTS: Well I have no doubt that they could have been moved by helicopter.The minister would have had orders to move them by helicopter, there was that sort of urgency. But if they want to know how to beat "Ed Robert•" in White Bay North, Sir, that is one of the ways to do it, go down there and show them what a government that cares -will do. Then sent a aan down there or find a man down there, I can name at least a dozen people who have told me that they want the Liberal nomination. any one of whom would make it good, a very good MHA. There may be one or two who are so deluded as to want the Tory nomination.

They have had trouble before. They have never been able to find anybody from down there to run not in the last two or three elections. 432

February 8, 1974 Tape 131 PK - 4 . So that is the way to do it;go down and say this is what we have done,look at the money we have spent. I would welcome that even if it cost me my seat. I would welcome that because the people would have the public services. That is what it is all about. Let them spend a few dollars too, Sf'r, on developing some industry down there. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudi~le. MR. ROBERTS: They have not. Unless something has been done to help Mr.

Peter Gardiner i.n the Canada Bay Lumber Company in Roddickton, and that is a very mysterious subject one on which we are lacking full information, one on which information does not seem to be available and nobody knows quite what is happening. Unless they have spent .some money there,the government have spent not a nickel to help any real industry anywhere in White Bay North. A few thousand dollars have been given out by this rural development thing. It has been some help but not very much. I do not think it created twenty jobs in White Bay North.

So let the government if they really care about the people of Northern Newfoundland do something along these lines too. Let them eo something to develop the fishery resources that are not developed down there, the scallops in Hare Bay. Let them do something to develop the crab - Fishery Products are going to do it now,using Ottawa money, using the money they got as compensation for their share of the Atlantic Whaling Plant. Let the Government of the Province do something.

Let them do something besides having state banquets, great lavish occasions at which much liquor will flow and there will be much merriment and jollity for the fortunate couple of hundred who will attend but that is all who will benefit. There are people who are trying to raise families on a couple of hundred dollars a month who will not get much out of that, out of the $3,000, $4,000 or $5,000 worth of liquor and wine and beer that will be lashed out in St. Anthony on the 26th. of April, allegedly in celebration of Confederation.

This is what they have offered to one of the districts that helped to make Confederation possible. MR. MURPHY: Did the honourable member hear about the twentieth anniversay 433

February 8, 1974 Tape 131 PK - 5 MR., ROBERTS: I hope I took

part in them, Sir, in a marvelous way. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: That would be a very large group, Sir. If every Liberal poll captain took

part in them, Sir, that would be a very large group. It was something like the $517.00 that the Auditor General tells us - and I would like to know who signed that voucher by the way, I wonder if it vas the Minister of Social - Is that a aocial service? AN HOR. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. ROBERTS: Is that a social service? Five hundred and seventeen dollar  for the Act III? MR. MORPHY: The men appreciated it. MR. ROBERTS: The men appreciated it.

I am aure, Sir, that the lady in Campbellton, living on $96,00 a month.appreciates knowing that the zovemment can fiad $517.00 to provide liquor and beer to the likes of that. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR.. ROBERTS: No, by God she 11!1 not living on $96.00 a aonthJ She may be existing on it but ahe is not living on it. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Nov, Mr. Speaker, BON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I have noticed since this session began, Sir, the honourable gentleman opposite - three, aix, nine, twelve, thirteen, I voader if there ia another one around, if not we shall - AN HOR. 1-'EMBER: Inaudible. Ml..

ROBERTS : recognize him. ~ Oh, there is one here, I am sorry, crouching. I did not MR. HDRPHY: Come on,now we have fourteen. MR. ROBERTS: We have foarteen. AN HO~. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Why because the Minister of Fisheries is so rude as to come over an interupt. Mr. Speaker, to turn the honourable gentleman's atomach is something I would do gladly. I mean,I would do very gladly. 434

February 8, 1974 tape 131 PK-. 6 MR. MURPHY: Carry on. MR. ROBfRTS: Just looking at him does it. N~w. Mr. Speaker, I have noticed since the House began that the honourable gentlemen opposite are more than usually sensitive this year. They are getting the message. They got the message from Hermitage. They are getting the message from all over this provinc that they are a one-term administration. The peop~e of Newfoundland have made up their minds now to turf them, to give them a royal order of the boot - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: The royal order of the boot, Sir, is what they are going to get and let them have the election whenever they vant. My guess was that they will put if off. I think that the Premier,and I am sorry he is not with us today - Mr. Speaker, could I have some order? MR. SPEAKER: (STAGG): Honourable members have been carrying on a certain amount of repartee for the past half hour or so. The Hon. the Leader of the Opposition does have a right to be heard in silence. 435

February 8, 1974 'Iape No, 132 NM - 1 Occasionally this repartee to go on. howeve~ he does have the right to be heard .in silence and I would ask that all honourable member . . observe this long-standing rule of the House. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am delighted to see the gentleman from St. John's Centre leaving. The only persons who will who will be unhappy about that are his officials whom he will be going to see. How, Sir, as I was saying, the government are tender.

They are on the defensive. 'Ibey have nothing to offer and that is exactly what they are offering. 'Ihe 'Ihrone Speech was as barren as the Funks and· a little ~ater on in my remarks I shall be going into this in some detail. As a matter of fact I propose to go through theJ'.hroa~ . Speech, word by weary, dreary, meaningless word and dispose of what I consider to be some of its inadequacies. It is really the most path~tic document that I have seen and by heavens I have heard and aeen and read my share of pathetic documents! I •hall also have the pleasure of reminding gentlemen opposite.

I think it is 119 separate pr0111ises they made to the electorate, at one stage or •~ther _.in 'Ihrone Speeches and what have you,and we shall have the pleasure of a romp through those. I ~hink four have been kept. There may be eight or ten which could be conceived to be partially kept and there is something over 100 that by any stretch of even George McLean's fertile imagination could not have been considered to be kept. Before we come to those delicacies• Sir• _there are one or tvo other goodies I would like to touch upon however briefly.

First of all I would like to continue with my few brief words on the Premier, and I - sorry he is not here again today. I understand from the press that he may be ill. I do hope that if be is ill that it is of short duration and that be will again be with us quickly. As far as I recall, I was not in the Hous~ myself Monday, but he was not in the House, Tuesday, Wednesday, he was here for half an hour on Thursday and he has not been here today. So I do hope that his illness he was away for a couple of days on what passes for public business, I 436

February 8 1 1974 Tape No.132 HM - 2 do hope that his illness is of brief duration and I wish him a speedy return. In the meantime, Sir, I do want to deal in some little detail in any event with the figures he used on Opening Day which in my submission are deliberately.- I withdraw deliberate, Sir, I are, misleading to the House. I may believe them to be deliberate but I certainly cannot say so, so I do not. The Premier told us on on Opening Day, Sir, and I have here the Hansard • or a photostatic page of page 47 of the Hansard. Apparently I had angered his highness.

I had dared to point out that the emperor was wearing no clothes. Anyway he went on, "The Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, deserves no apologies." I agree, it deserves none, it requires them but i -t deserves none. ''It outlined a few of the things we want to do as a government. It also mentioned some of the things that have been done. We have a great year of prosperity ahead," he said.

"We will for the third year in a row exceed fourteen per cent increase in our gross provincial product which is nearly double the Canadian average." Then he went on, "The Leader of the Opposition played with figures in a mathematician kick this afternoon." Our Premier is nothing if not colloquial in his speech. "He talks about unemployment increasing in our province. "That is true, Sir, it has but so has the work force. It is a fact that in April 1949 there were 99,000 Newfoundlanders employed." Nobody can give me that fact.

It is an estimate at best because apparently at that time even D.B.S. as they then were did not keep this sort of record. But he goes on, "It also was a fact that at the end of December 1971, the last of the twenty­ three year Liberal Administration, there were 139,000 employed." That is correct. That information is that which has been given out by Statistics Canada as they now are and by _ the Fiscal Planning Division or whatever they are called, downstairs in the Executive Council. "That is an increase of 40,000." The Premi .er 's mathematics a,;e correct even if his assumption is not. 437

February 8, 1974 Tape No. 132 NH - 3 Now he goes on, Sir, "It is alao a fact that the Dominion Bureau of Statistics, at the end of December thie year there were 178,000 employed for an increase of 38,000 people. There are 38,000 new jobs. There are 9,000 more unemployed. There is no question about that." Now, Kr. Speaker, the Premier did not use those figures lightly. He bas used them before. Indeed ~e used to hear a great deal of him trumpeting around the province about the 38,000 jobe that have been created.

For example in his speech to the Corner Brook Rotary Club on January 17, 1974, be said on page two, ''When the government took office nearly two years ago the total number of people employed etood at 139,000, at the end of December this year the total number stood at 177,000, that gentlemen is an increase of more than 38,000 new jobe in just two years." Vell Sir, if the figures were correct, his mathematics and conclusions would be. Kr. Speaker, the Premier was wrong.

The Premier of this province time and time again has aisled the House and the people of this province, has misled them by giving them inaccurate figures or giving thea the right figures and saying they mean samething they do not. What are the facts? The facts are, Sir, that in December 1971 there were 132,000 persons employed in Newfoundland. In December 1973 there were 151,000, an increase of 19,000, not the 38,000 claimed ·by the Premier. 1 The Premier was as wrong as a man could be.

The Premier with all of the research of the government, all these high priced civil servant•, all these over-rated planners, all these persons who have talked so long and so loud about planning and about priorities and that sort of approach and what did the Premier come up with, he comes up with figures which he repeats time and time again, that are completely wrong •. I do not accuse him of deliberately misleading the province. But I will accuse him of being almost criminally careless with his data 438

February 8, 1974 Tape No. 132 NM - 4 and I accuse him of in fact misleading the people of this province. The facts are, and I shall table the data, I will table it, there are copies made for the press, the facts are on the information handed out by the government, the Premier cannot even read what his own statistical persons turn out, the facts are, Sir, that we only have 19,000 new jobs in Newfoundland not the 38,000 the Premier claims. Now will he be man enough to come into this House and admit he is wrong? I know where he went wrong.

He took the number in the labour force and confused that with the number employed and I wish to God they were the saine but they are not. There is a gap and it is a widening gap and a growing gap. That is one of the reasons why the people of Newfoundland have made up their mind to give this honourable crowd the order of the boot, the royal order of the boot. They got the toe of the boot in Hermitage, Sir, and they will get the heel of the boot the next time they try it and they will get the boots when they go to the country. HR. WM. ROWE: Weak laugh. It was a very weak laugh. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, let me go on with some other figures. All of them, Sir. all of them drawn from the Government of Newfoundland . and Labrador's own statistical data, not something I have made up but rather, Sir, something based on information given out by the government, the generous, honest government. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us look at the change in annual average numbers employed, the annual average.

We will take the year 1971 and the year 1973, these are the two years that the Premier seems to prefer. 1971, the annual average as given to me by Statistics Canada and by the Planning and Priorities Secretariate of' the Provincial Government was 139,000 employed. 1973, 157,300, so it was not 19,000 new jobs r~ally, on the annual average it was 18,300, that is less than one-half of the Premier oft repeated claim. So I say, Mr. Speaker, he was either criminally careless, quasi-criminally careless or he was - AN HON, ME~IBER: Deliberately misleading. 439

February 8, 1974 Tape No. 132 NM - 5 KR. ROBERTS: No, I will not say he was delib•rately misleading but he did,in fa~t mislead. If one looka at the changes in the monthly peaks, the high points, there may be some difference. In July of 1971 the highest employment for that year, 151,000 persons employed. In July of 1973 the hiphest for that year 24,000 440

February 8, 1974. Tape 133 RH - l even that is only three fifths, sixty per cent of the figure claimed by the Premier, even taking the highest month's employment. All right, let us take the lowest peak, December, 1973.and the highest peak in 1971. Even then there were no new jobs created. The Premier's figures, Sir, on employment are totally false and totally misleading and I know it and the 26,000 Newfoundlanders who are unemployed know it and the thousands upon thousands of Newfoundlanders who fear -they may become unemployed know it, 27,000 people unemployed, Sir, in December, 1973.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Misleading figures. Maybe they are. They are from the Central Statistical Services,Economic and Resource Policy Planning and Priority Secretariat; 27,000 people unemployed. This, Sir, is the result of two years of Tory government. In 1972, in December, Sir, ' in 1972, in December there were 21,000 unemployed. That is an increase, Sir. The actual unemployment rate increased from 1971, December to 1973, December, a year of Tory action, increased by 28.0%.

That was a result of a year of Tory activity, Sir and that does not even include executive assistance who all were taken off the unemployment roles, • some of them off the streets. Bow did we do Sir, compared to Canada,because we are a part of Canada? Mr. Speaker, it may be said that the Government of Canada bear a measure of responsibility and so they do. Of course thev do but. Sir. it is the Premier who has claimed the good thin.2s. Now let him claim the truth. If the Premier had not rais~d this I would not have to deal with it.

So let not anybody over there try to curry a little favour with the Premier by _sayirg, "Oh well, blame the Ottawa govern­ ment". The Premier, time and time again, was trying to claim success. Well, let him face the truth, though it may hurt. How did we do compared to the Canadian average? Well Sir, you remember I am sure that betveen December, 1972 and December, 1973, the percentage of 441

!ebruary 8, 1974. Tape 133 Ill - 2 actually unemployed as revealed by the Central Statistical Services, Economic and Resources Policy Planning and Priority Secretariat, the crovd who lived down here on the, I think it is the seventh floor. Ours vent in Newfoundland, Sir, twenty-eight per cent. Across Canada, vhat happened? Between December, 1972 and December, 1973, Sir, it dropped. It ~ropped by twelve per cent. So, in other words, Canada is doing forty per cent better than ve are.

We increased our unemployment by twenty-eight per cnt; they decreased theirs by twelve per cent on a national average,and that ia the result of Tory activity, the result of Tory sovernment, Tory planning, all the do-nothing crowd. They have given 27,000 Newfoundlanders nothing to do. Bow, Mr. Speaker, let us talk a little about some of the Premier's other boasts. Be talked, for example, in Halifax,just the other day. No, I am sorry Sir, it was here in St. John's, at the Rotary Club here in St. John's,just the other day. He talked about able-bodied relief.

Short-teraed assistance it used to be called and I quote him, "I think you viii be as impressed as I was with the performance of the Department of Social Services for the January to December period of 1973." Those vqrds must have gladdened the minister'• heart. The Premier went on, "At the first of January last year, the able-bodied case load was 6,274 as compared with 4,617 at the end of last month. That ia an impressive thirty per cent reduction from the welfare roles and Sir, those figures, I have DO reason to doubt, are correct. The welfare roles are down thirty per cent, able-bodied case loads." Mr.

Speaker, the Premier is only telling half the truth: He is not telling the full truth. Whether he is doing it deliberately or not, I do not know but I do say he is'not telling the truth because the other half of the truth is the simple fact ~hat between the end of 1972 and the beginning of 1973 unemployment insurance came in, unem­ ·ployment insurance raised 31.6 per cent,and we all know Sir, any of us, 442

February 8, 1974. Tape 133 · RH - 3 who deal with the people who must look to welfare, or must look to unemployment insurance, we all know that the men who were on welfare were often there because their benefits had run out and that many of the men who were living on benefits would be on welfare if it were not for unemployment insurance. Any honourable member knows that. It is a fact of life for thousands of our people.

Well, Sir, there is the reason why the welfare able-bodied case load was down in Newfoundland, not anything to do with the Tory Government, not anything to do with planning and talk and -expensive jets and all the rest of it, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, do I have the right to speak or do these Yahoos have the right7 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: No! No! I have the floor and I do not propose to yield it. I would yield it to a gentleman, but not to the member for St. John's Centre.

A jet is one what makes hot air and I could call the honourable member a jet ••• (inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. ROBERTS: Have you ever noted, Sir, Mr. Speaker, that when they cannot deal with the arguments they have to try this low barrack room humor. AN HON~URABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, let the honourable gentleman prove that or withdraw it. He has no right to say that I am not speaking the truth. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman has said on two occasions that this government is a jet.

There is no jet in this government. 1 assume he is talking about an airplane. So if he is saying we have a jet in this government, there is no jet. So he is 443

., February 8, 1974. Tape 133 RH - 4 lying by saying that. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman has used an unparliamentary word. I ask you to ask him to withdraw it or to name him. MR. SPEAKER: I think that this is really another point of order, an argmnent, debate between two honourable members,and I suggest that the honourable Leader of the Opposition does have the right to be heard in silence. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, he called me a liar. He said I entered a lie in the House. Make him withdraw the statement, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I am speaking on a point of order. Make him withdraw the st·atement.

MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is, the statement made by the honourable Leader of the Opposition is untrue. MR. ROBERTS: Would Your Honour rule on the statement. Vhat are the rules on this point, Sir? HR. Sl'EAXER: I would like to request the honourable member from Bonavista South to rephrase the statement. HR• !l>R.GAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, what I will say is that the statement made by the honourable Leader of the Opposition is not correct,_ it __ is incorrect and therefore an untruth. HR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Does that comply with your ruling?

I mean I am - I shall accept the statement made by the honourable member from Bonavista South. MR. ROBERTS: Well then, we now know that untrue is a parliamentary vord. I now can say that the Premier's statements are untrue. They are. They are false as well. They are misleading. Where was I now? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Deceitful. Deceitful. HR. ROBERTS: No. The Premier's statements are still equally false and he has not been man enough to withdraw them or to explain thein or to defend them. I hope when next he comes to the House he will deal with them. 444

February 8, 1974. Tape 133 RH - 5 Now, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could say a word or two about another point made by the Premier. He talks about how incomes have gone up in Newfoundland, personal incomes and again he is taking liberties with the truth. Let me find the precise reference here. Oh, yes, page fourty-seven in Hansard for Wednesday, January 30. Mr. Speaker, this is the Premier speaking, Sir.

These are his very own words, from his very own lips in this very own House, "Another figure that might be of interest to the people of this Province and to this honourable House of Assembly is that in 1962, this was twelve years ago, the average personal per capita income in this Province was $987.00. That was the average for the people working in this Province, $987.00." He is confused, poor fellow.

Per capita incomes are obt9;ined by dividing the number of people . living in the Province into the total gross provincial products as defined, not into the work force,but the poor fellow is confused but his fi~ure is right. 11 In 1971, it increased by $1,000 just up to $2,100.'' Well, the Premier was taking liberties with the trut~ again. The actual figure, Sir, as statistics - I am sorry, the provincial government • have released the figure. It was $2,188, so if you round it off it is $2,200. "This year, Mr. Speake~, the average per capita income will be in excess of 445 ... _

I February 8, 1974 Tape no. 134 Page 1 - MRW $3,000 - $1,000 per capita increase in three years that previously bad taken ten for the eme rise in income. The Premier made essentially the same point, Mr. Speaker, when he spoke to the Rotary Club here in St. John'•• You have to hand it to the fellow, Sir, when he geta a point in his mind, be sort of beat  it to death. Row, Sir, let us look at the facts.

I am not e¥en going into inflation, although we all know and any one of us·who ehop or has people who shop or to whom we pay the bill, know that the price of what a dollar will buy is rapidly being eroded, very rapidly being eroded by inflation. The facts, the figures, if anybody wanta them, are that prices in St. John's have increased by 18.1 per cent in two year , It is a staggering rate of increase. Unemployment hu gone up 22 per cent, The actual rate of anemploymaut is 15,3 per cent. Hr. Speaker, the Premier'• figures will bear looking at in the light of where the money came from.

Do you know where half the money came from? AN BOR. MEMBER: From the taxpayers' pockets. Mil. llOBERTS: No. It may all have come from the taxpayers' pockets. Do you know where half the money came from? The actual increase between 1971 and 1973 - the 1974 figures obviously are not available. Thia i• only February. 1974. The Premier's figure of $3,000 is a guesstimate but I suspect it is an accurate one. In 1971 the per capita personal income in this province was $2,188, rounded off to $2,200 if one wished. In 1973, it va• $2.712, rounded off to $2,700.

The increase in per capita personal income in those th.ree years, Sir, 1971, 1972 and 1973 was $524; a far cry from the $1.000 claimed by the Premier but well within ~is normal batting average of fifty per cent. Sir, of that $524, no less than $225 is directly attributed to increased payments by the Federal Government, the Government of Canada,on Unemploya&nt Insurance, Family and Youth Allowances 446

F_ebruary 8, 1974 Tape no. 134 Page 2 and the Old Age Security and Supplement. The increases in those three Federal Government Programmes in Newfoundland, Sir, the increases alone have put in about half the increase per capita income which we can claim. Now how can the Premier boast. His figures are incorrect and his conclusions are even more incorrect. Let him stand exposed again, Sir, for a man wbo does not do his homework, as a man who makes statements, not off the cuff, we all make statements off the cuff that are not factually nor completely correct. It is an inevitable in the day to day debate in the House.

Let the Premier stand exposed as a man who uses prepared text, with all his seventeen or eighteen thousand dollars a year speech writers down there, Mr. Korbai, gentlemen of that ilk. AN HON. MEMBER: Very outstanding Newfoundlanders. MR. ROBERTS: They may be outstanding Nevfoundlanders but they are sloppy speech writers. Mr. Speaker, they put up the Premier to say that 38,000 jobs are created. The poor fellow is told 0 Sir, that 38,000 jobs have been created and yet only 19,000 have been created,by the government's own figures. That is all I am saying. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me make a further comment.

This will be a good year in Newfoundland and~ of course, we welcome it. I have here a cutting from the "Evening Telegram" of Monday, January 28. It has a very handsome picture of a very handsome gentleman, the junior member for Harbour Main. It is a good picture. He is a handsome fellow. They have him the wrong way around, they should have reversed the picture because he is looking off the page, when he should have been looking on. The honourable gentleman, I think. is all over the spectrum. fragmatic might be the best word to describe him.

Be says that it is g~ing to be a good year for the construction industry and that is t·he sort of thing that should be said when one is speaking to the construction industry. as he was. I do not have a copy of the gentleman's text. I do not even know if he was using one. 447

February 8, 1974 Tape no. 134 Page 3 AN RON. MEMBER.: Be can think. MR. ROBERTS: 1 could believe that. Re can.think ao he does not need one aa doea the Premier to have it all .nitten out. MR. DOODY: 1 was afraid the honourable member might have gotten a copy of it and - MR. ROBERTS: Well, that ia fine but the truth will make ye free. Let the Premier come in and answer, let him argue with the figures, if he can. KR. DOODY: Can I give you an example of these figures as against - MR. ROBERTS: Ho! When the honourable gentleman speaks• he can give all the answers and arguments be wants.

If I made a statement that is incorrect, let the hoa.ourable gentleman expose me-:-'·- MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I am going to praise him; he should not be so tender. Perhaps he should be tender, if I am praising him, I do not know. Anyway, he said that 1973 saw the completion of auch projects as the one hundred million barrel a day refinery at Come-by-Chance. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear! Bear! MR. ROBERTS: Well it says one hundred million in the paper. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR.. ROBERTS: I know it is a yellow-dog rag of journalism. We have the Premier's word for that too.

The Premier called it, acurrile, yellow-dog rag. He had been after me long before he turned to such leaser targets as the honourable membe-r. MR. V.ROWE: MB.. ROBERTS: That hurt his feelings. Look,you can tall. The minister went on: "The completion of the Labrador Linerboard Mill at Stephenville and the putting into operation aeven of the eleven giant turbines at Churchill Falla Hydro Electric project ••• " That is fine. He goes on to talk about some other things that may or m.ay not happen; the development of Churchill Falls 448

February 8, 1974 Tape no. 134 Page 4 which is his greatest wish for 1974. He told delegates that plans are progressing favourably for the construction of the second refinery at Come by Chance. He talked about what is going to be done this year, other work underway or which will soon get started; to conclude the Health Sciences Complex at Memorial University, three regional hospitals by which I assume he means Corner Brook, Twillingate, and Carbonear. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Well again, I was not there. The honourable gentleman should send me a copy of his text. MR.

DOODY: I do not want to confuse the honourable gentleman. MR. ROBERTS: The proposed airport expansion in St. John's and the St. John's Harbour Arterial Road. The honourable gentleman, they name him, of course, they spelled his name correctly. They did not put it in the upper case though. He says that these are all large ptojects and will contribute greatly to the construction industry during the coming year.

Now the only point I want to make, Sir, and I think it is one 'Well worth making, is that every one of those projects that are actually underway or will get underway that he listed, was either started by the much maligned Smallwood Administration or is being done by the Government of Canada. Not a damned thing has been done by this government! MR. W. ROWE: Right! MR. ROBERTS: Not a damned thing has been done by this government! AN HON. MEMBER: Bring Mr. Smallwood back. MR. ROBERTS: One will not have to because he is coming back for the .... Confederation Banquet.

I am sure he will ask the honourable gentleman, as the honourable gentleman will be a prime example of Confederation. Now, Mr. Speaker, the fact remains that everything underway today in this province referred to by the minister - the Shaheen Refinery may or may not happen. We have the Premier's word for it, 449

February 8, 1974 Tape no. 134 Page 5 that last July the construction would start in mid-July. Oh, we have the press relea•e. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: The Premier announced that everything was coming along famodsly. Something funny happened. AN BOK. MEMBER: The energy crisis. MR.. ROBERTS : MR. W. ROWE: MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the energy crisis so they could not go ahead. It started last June, the energy crisis did. There is no need for the product now. We will see about the Lower Chut'chill. Maybe we will get a statement out of the government. They may Ot' may not come to grips with it.

I know they are talking but we will see. We look forward to it. I hope it starts. I would be the fit'at to stand in this House and laud the honourable gentleman. We could even call it the "Doody Generator" or the "Doody Dam" or perhaps, Sir, the "Howdy Doody Resenoir." AR BON. MEMBER: Mil. ROBERTS: MR.. DOODY: The Doody Dawe. The Doody Dawe? No, it is the Dawe Doody. (Inaudible). Mil. ROBERTS: Yes, but I vas using the slogan the votet's use, not the one the honourable gentleman used - the Doody Dawe - no the Dave Doody when the votes were counted. AH BON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: Howdy Doody. Howdy Doody?

It sounds like that little bird the kids watch on the "Road Runner," - "I thought I saw a puddy tat," you laww,Dave Doody. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: _MR. MURPHY: MR.,ROBERTS: Order please! You know, Mr. Speaker, it really is - Tell us about the television shows. Mr. Speaker, I do not watch the kids television shows. Could the honourable gentleman tell us what goes on on them? 450

February 8, 1974 Tape no. 134 Page 6 HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speak .er, when I see the honourable g~tleman opposite, I can only aY,ain think how wise Sir Cavendish Boyle wrote, when he said: "God guard thee Newfc,undland," w~ea 1 look across the way. Now, Hr. Speaker, having touched in a geoeral way upon a few current topics, let me - there are only ten · of them over there. Really, I need a break, let us have a quorum cal.led please, .Sir. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, perhaps you could r~d the Hon. Leader of the Opposition that you count members and if they do not want to listen to him0 I do not see why we should stay and listen to bis tripe. 451

February 8, 1974 Tape No. 135 MR. MARSHALL: We can count the House. MR. SPEAKER: ~here is a quorum. NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could I call for a glass of water, Sir? AN BON. MEMBER: Ina~dible. HR.. ROBERTS: I hope the honourable gentleman runs. AN ll>H. MEMBER: Runs where? MR. KOBERTS: For his life. AH HOH. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: . Ro. we have standard • Let me. Mr.

Speaker, invite honourable gentlemen to turn with me to a very• very serious matter, one which I raiae only after a great deal of thought, one which I believe should be brought before the House and brought before the people of this province and one which I believe, when I have outlined the facts, will justify my request for a full and thorough judicial enquiry into it completly. AK BON. MEMBER: Quorum called. HR.. ROBERTS: I  there a quorum called? .All BON. MEMBER: No, I do not think so. It is my mistake. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, before I go into the reasons which lead me to make this request let me briefly but I hope completely refresh honourable gentlemen's minds on some recent history ia this province and also perhaps tell the House, Sir, ome facts that some honourable gentlemen might not know. Now, Sir, the situation arose as did so much else. out of the reults _.inconclusive as _they were, of the 1971 election. When the House was constituted. Sir, there were 41 men entitled to be se.ated. The man vho had been elected for the District of Fortune Bay1 Mr. Oldford, resigned his seat. AH HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, and I think history w~ll be most interested to know the full story and I hope it will ·come out. But I have no hesitation in saying that the present member for Fortune Bay in my 452

February 8, 1974 Tape No. 135 NM - 2 view vas in no way involved in what may. well have been a discreditable series of events. But I am not talking now about Mr, Oldford. He resigned shortly after we left office. We left office on January 18 and I am not sure of the date of his resignation but within a day or two or three thereafter he resigned as the member for Fortune. He was never sworn. He never took his seat. The House met that day, Sir, and there were forty members present. There was one member absent. There were forty men only who took the Oath in that thirty-fifth general assembly of Newfoundland.

The gentleman from Carbonear, the man who had been elected in the District of Bay de Verde, he lives in Carbonear, I guess has all his life, was not present. He was I believe, but I do not know because I was here, at home and ill. Indeed, Sir, that morning when we met to be sworn in, his name was called, I stood as Leader and said; "Your Honour," I think Your Honour had been elected at that point or Mr. Clerk if Mr. Clerk was conducti!lg the ceremony;" The gentleman from Bay de Verde is ill and will not be able to be present today.

I have seen him yesterday and he will be sworn in in due course.'' and so forth and so on, and then that was it and the next man's name on the role was called. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I said Mr. Clerk. I did not mean George Clarke, no no, I meant Mr. Clerk and Mr. Law Clerk and Mr. Speaker. Mr. George Clarke was not returned. He was still the Speaker until our present Speaker was elected but he was not present. Two or three of Her Majesty's Judges were present to administer the Oath.

But anyway we were all here, or most of us were here, a lot of us were here, I do not know, twenty or twenty-five, however many were elected in October 1971 and were still in the House. A number of my brethern paid the price a month or two afterwards. The people of Newfoundland are· still paying it too. Hr. Saunders later resigned to the House. So I had always thought. The facts as I had them were relatively s;!.mplc. I have good 453 ....

February 8, 1974 Tape No, 135 NM - 3 reason to believe that the Premier had twice, before the day in question, before March 1, sought a dissolution from His Honour the Governor and had been refused, Twice sought, twice refused and I submit, and I think all authorities would agree, that His Honour the Governor who acted throughout this entire situation with the utmost discretion and candor and tact and propriety, His Honour the Governor was perfectly justified in refusing the Premier's request for a dissolution. MR. MORGAN: Do you believe or do you know? MR, ROBERTS: I said I had reason to believe.

MR. ll>RGAN: That is different, is it not.? MR. ROBERTS: It certainly is different. That is why I did not say I know. I said I have reason to believe. MR. MORGAN: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I make no ch~rges, Mr. Chairman, if the gentleman frQm Bonavista South does not want to treat the matter seriously and bear e oat then I can only say I am deeply sorry, because I think that he should hear me out, because what I say I believe is of importance to the people of this province, MR. MORGAN : Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to reason with the unreasoaable. I would ask him please to be quiet.

If he wants to coaaent later on what I said, let him. He has the same rights as does any honourable gentleman. He baa the same obligations as does any honourable gentleman.

In any event, whether or not the Premier had sought or been refused dissolution on the evening of Wednesday, March 1, the House opened at three o'clock, His Honour read the Speech from the Throne, the motion that the committee to appoint the Address in Reply was put and was adopted, all members present voting for it, there were twenty men on this side, Sir, nineteen on the other side, Your ~onou~ in the Chair, forty of the forty-one men eligible to sit in the House were present that day. 454

February 8 1 1974 Tape No. 135 NM - 4 Subsequently the gentl~an from St. John's East who was the House Leader, put the normal motion that the House of Assembly do adjourn until the following Monday, 0 put. carried. At some point thereafter, and I obviously do not know the time, at some point between then and very early the next morning, the Premier waited upon His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor and advised dissolution. Now, Sir, the consitutional authorities are quite clear with the House at twenty-one, twenty, the Premier was not entitled to a dissolution.

We had the right on this side, if asked, to try to form an administration. I wrote His Honour to that effect, I forget the date of the letter, early in February, citing the authority. I did not want particularly to be asked and I was not asked. But, Sir, the House at twenty to twenty, the Premier was fully entitled· to ask for a dissolution and the Governor did the only thing he could have done and granted it. The result of course is history. That is fine. I have no quarrel with the result. The result is history. But, Sir, in this light the r~signation of Mr.

Saunders becomes quite important because it was the resignation of Mr. Saunders as a member of the House of Assembly that opened the way to a dissolution. There is no doubt about that. Everybody would agree on it. AN HON . MEMBER: We all know it • MR. ROBERTS: Right. We all know that. But it is very essential to my argU111ent to underline the point because it is crucial. So the question then becomes, Sir, when did Mr. Saunders resign? I assume · he resigned after the House met on Wednesday? We agree on that. Otherwise, Mr.

Speaker, somebody has committed a vile, constitutional fraud, because, Sir, if the Governor sat in that Chair and read the Speech from the Throne and knew, or if any man knew that a man had resigned from the House of Af1sembly and it was twenty-twenty, he knew the House was to be dissolved. I do not for one moment believe in the least that His Honour the Govenaor had any indication when he sat in that Chair 455

Febroary 8, 1974 Tape 136 IB-1 on Wednesday, March 1, 1972 and read the Speech from the Throne. I do not think he had the slightest inkling that ~r. Saunders had tendered his resignation as the member for Bay de Verde. I do not think that for a minute, It never crossed my mind that he had even an inkling, even a hint that anything had happened other than simply the gentleman from Bay de Verde was not in his seat, he had not been sworn in, he was ill. I do not know whether anybody else had any idea. I say, Mr.

Speaker, that if any perso~ had any knowledge that a grave constitutional fraud was perpetrated on Bis Honour, the Governor, on the Crown, on this House of Assembly and on the people of Newfoundland - I am not even referring to the half million dollars that this session cost the people of Newfoundland. Let us consider the circumstances in which the session was met. The government assumed office on, I believe, January 18th and they were sworn, I believe, on that day. We resigned as a_ministry. Mr. Smallwood tendered his resignation as Premier and with it ours as the ministry.

Two or three days before that, within twenty-four hours af the Supreme Court handing down a decision that the gentleman from St. Barbe South, as he now is, was in fact entitled to be the 1De1Dber for St. Barbe South,and therefore it became twenty-one.-twenty and that was it,we resigned, no question about it. The new ministry was sworn in and everything was fine. They then delayed meeting the Bouse, Sir.

I have good cause to believe - I do not know - I have good cause to believe that they me~ the House because they were ordered to, because Ilia Honour the Governor,acting on the constituional authorities, said in response to those two requests for dissolution, "No, you must meet the House. If the House sustains you, you may carry on and at a certain point you may dis .solve." Exactly the situation as happened in Ottawa during the same minority eituation, exactly the same situation except this was not even a minority. It was a precarious majority but it was a majority. The enormity of this.

Sir, would be staggering if anybody know because the moment Bill Satmders resigned fr0111 this House, Sir.'the 456

February 8, 1974 Tape 136 IB-2 issue had to be sent back to the electorate. There was no need for any, Sir. So, therefore, Sir, one asks when did he resign? All that I have said so far is either known or is a matter of surmise on my part. That which is surmise I have said is surmise. I believe what I said and I say it after mature consideratio~. I had been told, Mr. Speaker, on Monday that one of our members had in suspici011s circumstances decided to leave our ranks. I did not know who it was. I was leader of the party. I was quite new at the job anrl it was difficult times.

There had been all sorts of strange circumstances. Mr. Shea and Mr. Burgess had been clipping about. All sorts of unusual things had been happening but I was told that. Now, that came after a caucus on Friday of the then Liberal members. The gentleman from Fogo was there. The gentleman from Bell Island, I bel1eve, was there. The gentleman from Bonavista North was there. The gentleman from White Bay South and the gentleman from Labrador North were all there. It was held at the Laurier Club here in St. John's.

The only elected members of the Liberal Party who were not there at that meeting on Friday, whatever day it was, about twenty­ fifth or twenty-sixth of February, Friday, was Mr. Smallwood who was then in Florida and Mr. Chalker, Mr. James R. Chalker,who was out of Newfoundland but was due back for the House. He had been returned as the member for St. Barbe North and was here on opening day. I went round the table, Sir, to each of the men in that room with me. I can see it now as clearly, ~r. Speaker, as if it were this House at this moment. Mr. Saunders was at the meeting. He most certainly was.

I went round the table and I said, "Boys, any one of us can scuttle her. It will only take one with the twenty-one/ twenty situation." I went round the table and said if anybody here present has just cause why these two should not be joined in holy matrimony, let him now speak. Among others, I asked Mr. Saunders and I invite those who were present - there were nineteen other men present - 457

Februaey 8, 1974 Tape 136 IB-3 to contradict me. He did say that he had seea the Premier that morning and that he intended to see him again about a constituency problem. Be also aaid Cthe honourable gentleman from Bamber West was the \ Premier then} , there and outside to several banourable members ~hat he was anxious to have the House open because he needed the money. Many of ua needed the $10,000 or w~atever portion comes on opening day. He aaid that, Sir, and I am not breaking any oath of caucus aecrecy. AM HONOURABLE MEMBER: He said that he saw the Premier that morning? ,MR.

ROBERTS: The Premier being the gentleman from Humber West, the present Premier. Row, Mr. Speaker, when 1 got this news on ~onday from a aource that I believed reliable, I immediately brought skill I had to bear to try to figure out whether anybody 11:lght in fact be about to jump the ship. I do not mind saying, Sir, that I came to the ~onclusion that perhaps Mr. Saunders might be in that position. I knew that he had financial problems. Be told that. He told me privately as well. I knew also that apparently he had signed some construction orders for Western Construction.

I believe it was an irproper proceeding during the election. He ordered work to be done, paving to be done in his district. Be had signed for it, signed it personally, and I may have the company wrong. Be came to me and told me that. Be was concerned. The company was pressing him for payment and it was $70,000 or $80,000, a lot of money. The company had done the work and wanted the 1110ney. ..._. So, when 1 figured it out,I threw it down and I said; ·11Now look 9 Bill Saunders owes me no loyalty. I have known him for years. We aerved together in the House.

We have worked together but he owes me no particular loyalty. He is a friend . of mine. I have no reason to susrect him. We get along." So, I picked up the telephone and I called Mr. Smallwood in Florida. Now I think he recounts the story · in his book. I have not read that

chapter of his book but I think he 458

February 8, 1914, Tape 137, Page 1 -- apb said, Sir, and I told him the story. He said; "No fear" he said; "Bill Saunders is loyal to me. Bill Saunders has stood in that House fifty times and said how much he thinks of me and how loyal he is. I will ring him now and tell him that you are the leader and that I am asking in your behalf and I want to know what this is all about." I said; "That would be terrific, Sir." A little while later, Sir, that Monday evening, the phone rang and it was Mr. Samllwood calling from Florida. He had spoken with Mr. Saunders he told me.

Obviously in law this is hearsay but I have every reason to believe it in view of what happened the next day. Apparently Hr. Saunders burned up the telephone wires between here and Florida with protestations of his loyalty to whoever the leader might be of the Liberal Party, that he was a Liberal, he had been elected as a Liberal, he fought for election as a Liberal, he had been a Liberal and he was going to go on being a Liberal.

I said; "Well, that is terrific, that is really fine, that is grand, I can now rest assured." I was not quite sure until the next day, Sir, Tuesday, the twenty-ninth day of February, because in that year of our Lord 1972, there was a leap year, there was a February twenty-ninth. I got in a car and I drove to Carbonear and by appointment I saw Mr. Saunders at his home. The two of us were present at the interview. He was a very shaken man in my judgement, not the Bill Saunders I knew quite well. He seemed to have much on his mind, he seemed to be weary and he was weepy and a very tired man.

He assured me that he had no intention of resigning from the House, that he had no intention of leaving politics, that he was sick and his doctor had said he should not go the next day to the opening and so forth. I got in the car, my brother drove me over and I came back to town. I reported, I suppose, to some of my colleagues that day or the next. I told the House the same thing. So, Hr. Speaker, you will understand why I was somewhat surprised when the news came out that Wednesday night or Thursday morning that Mr. Saunders had 459

February 8, 1974, Tape 137., Page 2 -- apb in fact resigned. I was a little more surprised, Mr. Speaker, when a little while later, now this is the man who was in financial difficulties by his own admission. I did not make it .up it was what he told us. I did not ask him it was what he told us. It was revealed in the House and I asked the Minister of Finance this on Fenruary 22, 1973, it will be found on page 757 of Hansard. I asked him; "May I again ask" (I had asked the year before but this is the most recent reference) "May I again ask whether the gentleman who at one stage represented Bay de Verde, Mr.

William Saunders, a resident of Carbonear,has yet received either a pension or did he receive any sessional allowance, indemnity er expense account in respect of that," call it the one day session, we all know the session to which we refer. The Minister of Finance stood and I am quoting him in full, he said; "No he did not." I vent on; "He did not receive any monies at all?" The Minister of Finance said; "He should have but he did not." As far as I know, that is true. So we have the spectacle cu·rious of Mr. Saunders ••• AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: No, Mr.

Speaker, of this we do not know, that is the point. Mr. Saunders,a gentleman who by his own admission was in financial difficulties,not availing, all it would have taken was to be sworn _by any J.P. or anybody authorized to administer oaths in this province. Not being swom as a-member,he was entitled, fully entitled, as much as any man swom thlt day in this chamber. If he had taken the oath, the quite simple but quite majestic oath that we take as members of this House,he would have been entitled to his fee of $10,000,for one day as it turned out. We all did. I think all of us did.

So he gave up $10,000, a very noble gesture. That session for Mr. Saunders had a special signifi ·cance, Sir, because those who are familiar with the House of Assembly Pension Act know that if he had been swom that one day he would have qualified to receive his pension of three of four thousand dollars a 460

February 8, 1974, Tape 137, Page 3 - apb year for his life. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: It is three sessions or ten years. It would have been three sessions. MR. MURPHY: And ten years if anyone had been elected three ti.mes. AN HON. 1-w.BER: No • No . MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to get into an argUI11ent with the gentleman from St. John's Center. The fact remains that he gave up his pension. He gave it up, Sir. He gave up two or three thousand dollars a year for life. That is quite a sacrifice, Sir, and I marvel at the way that man has been able to carry on.

He sent us a cheque for twenty-five dollars last year for the Liberal Ball but we have not cashed it. I marvel at that. He did. Find out. It is in my - Well, better reorganize in there. A cheque for twenty-five dollars for the Liberal Ball. We did not list his name with the Liberal M.H.A's nor did we cash the cheque. He has also managed,bless him, to take a couple of holidays in the South. MR. W.N.ROWE: Well deserved. MR. ROBERTS: Well deserved. His wife was ill and I can understand him wanting to go to Florida for a little sun.

Secondly; he managed to buy a second-hand car, a Lincoln-Continental, worth seven or eight thousand dollars. I wonder in wonderment at a man who will tell us on Friday that he is worried · about grocery money and then subsequently is able to do this. Then, Mr. Speaker, over this I sort of puzzled and figured there must be an answer. I did not have the answer because I figured Bill Saunders must have resigned on the Wednesday. Would he have lied to me? To Joe Smallwood? I mean, the Governor surely was not misinformed, was he? Would anybody have misinformed the Governor?

There was one other curious incident at about that time that I think is relevant. On Monday the 28th. day of February, in the morning, in the forenoon, the Premier of this Province, the honourable 461

Februiry 8, 1974, Tape 137, Page 4 -- apb .. gentleman who now sits for Humber East, called a press conference to announce that the House would not meet until the member had been returned for Fortune Bay. The seat was empt~ Mr. Oldford having resigned previously. The writs had been issued for the by-election, I forget the date. Polli-ng day was the twenty-first or the twenty­ second of March and the Premier said that we will not meet the House until we settle the composition because this one man could be .so important. The newspapers , , the television and radio stations were there, what I say is accurate.

That afternoon, Sir, the Premier called the press together again and made a very surprising announcement that the House would not wait until the end of March to meet, would not wait until the member for Fortune Bay whomever it was had been returned but that the House would meet the day after next, the quickest possible time it could. In fact we did so meet on Wednesday, March 1, thirty-six hours, forty-two hours after the Premier 111ade his second statement.

All of that together ia a most interesting series of facts and may lead many in this province to inference • But, Sir, maybe I am naive, maybe I was not willing to accept what the inferences acemed irresistibly to be. I suggest, for example, to the gentleman from St. John's South,who has practiced in the courts of this province and done extremely at criminal law that if I presented the facts to him and soug~t his opinion he would say that there is an irresistible inference to be drawn on these facts.

There may be arguments against, there may be facts we do not have,and I would suggeat that the gentleman from Placentia East, a gentleman skilled in advocacy