Volume XL .ay Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 48 6 June 1986

The House met at 10:00 a.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As minister responsible for wildlife, I wish to inform this hon. House that the 1986 moose and caribou licence draw has been completed, and that notices have been mailed to applicants informing them of their success or failure in getting a licence for this year. As is the case every year, a tremendous number of applications were made to the Wildlife Division.

A total of 57,153 people actually participated in this year's draw, representing 31,685 applications. Individual applicants made up 6,217 of this total, while the remaining 25,468 consisted of party applications. Reflecting the excellent wildlife management and protection of recent years, as well as the increasing co-operation of the public in reducing the amount of poaching, our moose and caribou populations are doing extremely well.

Consequently, we were able to increase the number of moose and caribou licences issued this L2805 June 6, 1986 Vol XL year to a total of representing an increase over last year. 13,092, of 870 A total of 11, 250 party and 355 individual moose licences were issued this year. For caribou, 1, 461 party and 26 individual licences were issued. In all, 25,803 Newfoundlanders will be able to participate in the moose and caribou hunts this year. With the continued co-operation of · the public in cutting down on poaching, Mr.

Speaker, we look forward to being able to further increase the number of moose and caribou licences issued in future years, so that more of our residents can take

part in this integral aspect of our unique way of life. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for giving me a copy of the statement in advance. We are happy that the notification is going out, Mr. Speaker. MR. PEACH: Did you get your licence? MR. FLIGHT: No, I have not. . I am waiting to see whether I get one or not. The minister · talks a lot about poaching here, Mr. Speaker, and the continued support of the general pub! ic. No question, we are doing something to control poaching, however, one hears of snaring of moose on the West Coast, one hears of all kinds of violations of the wild game act.

We do not hear of too many convictions. I would suggest to the minister that 90 per cent of the convictions that his party have been responsible for are more bothersome to people stopped by the wild life officers than they No. 48 R2805

are effective in conserving or protecting. The stopping of a hunter a quarter of a mile out of his zone, who is carrying an unwrapped rifle in his vehicle, is more bothersome to the legitimate hunter who would never think of breaking the law than it is effective in actually stopping the shooting or the poaching of moose. Mr. Speaker, we are into a position now where we have a five to one ratio; one applicant out of every five who applies for a licence in this Province gets one.

That says that basically, not strictly but basically, every Newfoundlander can now look forward to getting a moose licence every five years. We do not think that is good · enough, Mr. Speaker. We suggest to the minister that", as good as this may appear, there is a more equitable way, that a way can be devised to give everybody, every Newfoundlander who wants a crack at a moose licence, a licence. It has nothing to do with the total kill. The total kill can be controlled under that system, but everyone should have a right to hunt in the Fall of the year.

Most Newfoundlanders are hunting for meat and a system can be devised that would give every Newfoundlander a licence while, at the same time, maintaining stringent control over the allowable kill. Mr. Speaker, I do not have time in answering this statement to lay out to the minister ways in which this could be done, but I would suggest to him that people in his department are aware of them and he should look at making the draw, or the issuing of licences more equitable. MR. SPEAKER: L2806 June 6, 1986 Vol XL Order, please! MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications with responsibility for the administration of The Landlord And Tenant (Residential Tenancies) Act, I am pleased to inform honourable members of the appointment by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council of Mr. Gerard J. O'Reilly as full-time Chairman of the St. John's and the Eastern Residental Tenancies Boards. · Mr. O'Reilly's appointment as Chairman of the st.

John's and the Eastern Residential Tenancies Board becomes effective on July 1, 1986, when the term of office of the present part-time Chairman, Mr. H. James Puddester, Q.C., expires. The appointment Chairman for the of St. a full-time John's and Eastern Residential Tenancies Boards has ·been contemplated for some time. It is proposed to introduce in the next session of the House of Assembly new Landlord and Tenant Residential Tenancies legislation.

This legislation will enable the courts to refer to the Residential Tenancies Boards for investigation and report a variety of landlord/tenant disputes involving eviction, damage claims and arrears of rent which, as a result of a 1981 decision of the Supreme Court of Canada, can now only be heard by the courts. The referral of such landlord/tenant disputes to No. 48 R2806

Residential the courts decrease the Tenancies Boards by will substantially workload of the courts in hearing such cases. Similarly, the work of the Residential Tenancies Boards is expected to increase substantially as a result of the referral of such disputes to the boards by the courts. It is in anticipation of this increased workload with the introduction in the next session of the new Landlord and Tenant (Residential Tenancies) legislation, that it was decided to appoint a full-time Chairman for the St. John's and Eastern boards. It should be noted that the workload of the St.

John's Board itself is presently significantly higher than the other four regional boards. This is attributed to the larger population base and the considerably larger volume and range of rental accommodation in the region. Mr. O'Reilly has held a number of senior executive appointments during his 21 years in the Provincial Public Service. In 1968 he was appointed as Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives. Subsequently, he was appointed Deputy Minister of Rural Development and was directly involved in reorganizing the Department to include Agricultural Development and Northern Development. In 1983 Mr.

O'Reilly was appointed as Chairman of the Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation. It is also worthy to note, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. O'Reilly was selected as the first senior public servant to occupy the J.G. Channing Chair at Memorial University where he undertook lectures in public administration and related topics, L2807 June 6, 1986 Vol XL as well as research during his twelve month tenure at the university in 1984-85. Mr. O'Reilly's administrative background, coupled with his many years of experience as an executive in the public service, will be very valuable in his new position as Chairman of the St.

John's and Eastern Residential Tenancies Boards. I would be remiss if I did not offer the outgoing Chairman, Mr. H. James Puddester, the deepest appreciation for his most valuable contribution as part-time Chairman of the these -two boards over the past five years. During the tenure of Mr. Puddester's appointment the St. John's and Eastern Boards functioned extremely effectively and efficiently, a trait for which I understand he is very well known by his peers in the legal profession. Mr. Puddester's valuable advice in the drafting of new Landlord and Tenant Legislation has also been greatly appreciated. Mr.

Puddester has recognized the increasing workload of the boards and, along with others, suggested that the time was indeed appropriate to appoint a full-time Chairman. Mr. Speaker, this announcement today is yet another commitment by government to the implementation and development of social legislation to ensure that residents of our Province who are either tenants or landlords have an appropriate and effective mechanism in dealing with disputes. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 48 R2807

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ~he hon. the member for St. Barbe . MR. FUREY: Just briefly, Mr. Speaker. In response . to the minister's statement I would like to thank the minister for supplying his statement some minutes before the House opened. We, on this side, would like to associate ourselves and welcome the appointment of Mr. Gerard O'Reilly as full-time Chairman of the St. John's Eastern Residential Tenancies Boards. Certainly he is an experienced gentleman and we welcome his appointment and wish him well in his new job as the full-time Chairman.

We note that the minister is proposing to introduce next session new Landlord and Tenant (Residential Tenancies) legislation which will be enabling legislation, as I understand it, to free up the courts which are now swamped with all kinds of work dealing with many matters, but specifically with evictions; they are busy refereeing between tenants and landlords on various disputes. So basically, Mr.

Speaker, will look forward to seeing legislation and studying it, in the House and in Committee. we this both We look forward, also, to seeing the courts being freed up from this particular work. · But, as the Minister says, Mr. Speaker, there will be an increase of work in the Eastern Residential Tenancies Board and, as a result, I suspect that is why he is has opted for a full-time Chairman rather than a part-time chairman. L2808 June 6, 1986 Vol XL We, on this side, welcome this appointment, Mr. Speaker. We would also like to associate ourselves with the comments made by the minister with respect to Mr.

Puddester and his past work. We appreciate, as well, his v~luable contribution ·to the Tenancies Board, for drafting legislation and for his· part-time work as Chairman. Again, Mr . Speaker, we, on this side, welcome the appointment of Mr. 0' Reilly. We wish him well in his new job and we look forward to debating this new enabling legislation in the coming months. SOME HON. MEMB ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: At this stage I would like to welcome to the visitor's gallery thirty-six Grade 111 students from St. Peter's Primary School, Mount Pearl, with their teachers, Mrs. Florence Norris and Ron Pellerin.

I would also like to welcome to the visitor's galley six students from the John Howard Society with their teacher, Debbie Gregg. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young). I quote what he said from Hansard two days No. 48 R2808

ago, where he said, 'I challenge any member to name something I did wrong by hi Ling people. ' I would say, Mr. Speaker, according to the Premier's own code of conduct for hi Ling, what the minister did was clearly wrong when he stated, 'We hire on the basis of political friendship and not on merit.' MR. SIMMS: Ask something that is in order. Do not be so childish. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The member is making a statement. Would you please direct your question? MR.

EFFORD: Would the minister explain what he meant when he said :he would challenge anybody, defy anybody to say that he did anything wrong, when the Premier himself clearly stated what the Minister of Public Works and Services did, and he made the statement continuously over and over, was wrong according to the practices of the government? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, there again I think the hon. gentleman is twisting the words of the Premier and probably the hon. gentleman should go back to kissing pigs. MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, it is a total disgrace for any minister, any man to stand in this House of Assembly L2809 June 6, 1986 Vol XL and make a statement like that. I have a very direct and plain question for the minister. You have admit ted over and over again to the hiring of people on the basis of political work done for you. I would like to ask the minister how many jobs have you passed out in the past three months? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: I could not say the exact number, Mr.

Speaker, but whatever jobs were to be filled by temporary employment are filled. MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: I would like to ask is the Minister of Public Works and Services denying the statements he has made over and over on television, that he has hired people because they were sons and daughters and friends of those who politically worked for him in the past election, and that what the Premier of the Province said is totally wrong? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, there again the hon. gentleman is taking my statement out of context. We hire people on merit and their performance, and I do not think there has been any additional people or students hired from my district this year No. 48 R2809

other than those called back by seniority. MR. EFFORD: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I was going to ask this question to the Premier, but I will ask it to the acting Premier, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall). Will he undertake to have these names, that I will give to him privately and not publicly, passed over to the Premier for investigation to see if they were hired on merit or hired because they are political buddies of the Minister of Public Works and Services? MR.

SIMMS: Put it in an envelope and mail it to him. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I also ask will he make representation on behalf of all members of the government and of the Opposition, all the people .of this Province, to have the Premier ask the Minister of Public Works and Services to step down from his position while an investigation is conducted to see if the Minister of Public Works and Services is as corrupt as he himself idicated publicly, on public television, when he said that all of these people were hired not on merit but for political favours rendered? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, it is quite obvious L2810 June 6, 1986 Vol XL what the hon. gentleman is attempting to do. He is beating a subject to death. The fact of the matter is that merit is the prime criterion of this government in all appointments, in permanent appointments through the Public Service Commission and qtherwise. As for the resignation of the Minister of Public Works and Services, the Minister of Public Works and Services in this government happens to be one of the more outstanding ministers of Public Works and Services that we have seen in this Province. All anyone has to do , Mr.

Speaker, is to compare the reports of the Auditor General with respect to the way in which the Minister of Public Works and Service has exercised his office and with respect to the way in which some of his predecessors had, particularly those in the Liberal Government when they had no Public Service Commission. You always had to be a friend of a Liberal to get a job. They had no basis for giving out liquor licences unless you happened to be a worker for the Liberal Party, and there was no Public Tendering Act.

All Gaul was divided into three parts but Newfoundland was divided into two, and their favourite sons would get it in one part and their favourite sons would get it in another part. So the hon. gentleman need not get on with his gross political digs and his hypocrisy. As far as the Minister of Public Works goes, the Minister of Works in this government is the best ministers Newfoundland has ever seen Public one of that and he exercises his office in an honest and a direct way. We happen to be very proud of the way in which he has discharged his duties. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 48 R2810

MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. member for St. Barbe, I would like to just take a few seconds out to welcome a delegation from the Newfoundland and Canadian Federation of Municipalities, Mayor William Dixon, Mayor Jerome Walsh, Mrs. Elizabeth Fitzgerald, Brian Strickland, Paul Moriarity, Doug Smith and Mrs. Eva Curtis. I would also like to welcome to the visitors gallery forty-one Grade VI students from Ralph Laite Collegiate in Lewisporte with their teachers, Pansy Purchase, Glen Purchase and Charles Wheaton. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for st.

Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Acting Premier. The Premier stated in this House yesterday that the criteria for hiring in temporary positions are quite clear - competence, merit and experience. And yet on public television earlier this week, Mr. Speaker, and again last night, the Minister of Public Works admitted quite clearly - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: - the hiring and the placement - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: My question - L2811 June 6, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member is making a speech. Would he please pose his question.

The bon. the member for St. Barbe. MR; FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Acting Premier, in light of the comments made by the Premier yesterday in the House with respect to competence, and in light of the Public Works Minister's comments on television, will the Acting Premier tell us whether or not the Minister of Public Works breached the code of conduct as enunciated by the Premier in this House yesterday? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The answer is no.

The Minister of Public Works' comments were taken out of context, which is not unusual for people, particularly on the government side of the House, are enunciating policies from time to time where it seems to be much more palatable to report matters out of context, where you can make mountains out of molehills. The fact of the matter is what the bon. the Minister of Public Works said was entirely and completely consistent, and what · the hon. minister has done has been entirely and completely consistent with the policies of this government.

The policies of this government have been in the past, they are now, and they will be in the future, that the main criterion for the employment of people is on the basis of merit. No. 48 R2811

I will just [."eite[."ate what I said to the hon. gentleman. If he just goes back into the history of the way in which employment in the Province of Newfoundland has evolved in the public se[."vice, he will see for himself the difference between the Prog[."essive Conservative administration, which b[."ought in the Public Service Commission and has an independent Public Service Commission which governs not only appointments but p[."omotions within the civil service itself, and what was p[."acticed befo[."e.

The fact of the matter is we have a model civil service, we have a model Public Service Commission and, as far as I am conce[."ned and the administration is concerned, we have a model Minister of Public Works and Services. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Ba[."be. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, what the acting Premier is saying today is what the Premier said yesterday, that the media is twist 'ing the Public Works Minister's words. MR. J. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of O[."der, the han. the member for St. John's North.

MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, with the acknowledged track record of the Liberal Party, especially when it was in power, of pillaging the government, I think one would have to be very L2812 June 6, 1986 Vol XL careful about hiring an acknowledged Liberal supporter. MR. SPEAKER: To that -point of order, there is no point of order. I would ask the han. member to pose a question, not make a speech. MR. FUREY: My question is very simple and straightforward, Mr. Speaker, and it is to the acting Premier.

If we are not going to deal with what the media has said - you say they twisted the words - let us deal with what the minister has said . The minister said in the House, students in my district - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member is making a speech . MR. FUREY: Does the minister agree that the minister's own words in this House about hiring students - his own words, not the media's, not any other minister's, not any other member's - his words about hiring students who politically favour him during a campaign, are a breach of the code of conduct for hiring that the Premier stated in this House yesterday?

MR. SP EAK ER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARS HALL : Mr. Speaker, first of all the han. gentleman is not going to get the press savage at me. I did not say that the press was twisting or anything like that. I just said that they took it out of context and that is a fact. Particularly one media in this Province has a habit of taking matters out of context because the way in which No. 48 R2812

to get headlines is to try to report something that is sensational. We know, any member of government in this Province knows, that this is the way in which interviews are conducted. Sometimes, with this particular media particularly, you are asked questions and always in the back of your mind is, 'What are they going to pull out of context'? Well, we know what they pulled out of context with the Minister of Public Works there the other day. Pulling out of context is one thing, twisting is something else.

The only twisted people around that I know who walk Newfoundland are the hon. gentlemen there opposite who have refused assiduously over the past few years to support us on very vital issues such as the offshore and can go through the twisting and the gyrations that we have seen in this House in their debate on the Atlantic Accord. Now as far as the other matter is concerned, I just point out to Your Honour that I do not know what happened this morning. What I suspect is that the executive assistant to the Leader of the Opposition makes up questions and the Rexograph was put up.

The member for Port de Grave picked up the original and the hon. gentleman for St. Barbe picked up the copy, because he is asking the same questions over again and I have already given an answer to them. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a question to the L2813 June 6, 1986 Vol XL Acting Premier. Again, in view of the Premier's statement last evening on television and in view of the apparent contradiction with the Minister of Public Works, can the acting Premier verify for this House which is the official position?

Is it the position articulated and enunciated continuously by the Minister of Public Works or is it the one enunciated by the Premier? Which is the official position with respect to hiring practices in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the council. MR. MARSHALL: The official position, Mr. Speaker, is both, because the point of the matter is both of them are one and the same. What the Premier articulated was the policy of this government and what the Minister of Public Works said in total in his interview is also. You cannot pick, Mr.

Speaker, out of context this statement and try to say that there is inconsistency. There is no inconsistency. The method of appointment in the public service, permanent through the Public Service Commission, temporary employment, all employment, is on the basis of merit. It was, it is and it ever will be, at least until such time as a Liberal Government gets back into power, in about fifty years time, and they get an opportunity to corrupt the institutions of government in this Province once again. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Bonavista North. the No. 48 R2813

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that the Acting Premier cannot have his cake and eat it too. There cannot be two contradictory positions, either the one is right and the other is wrong. SOME RON. MRMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, does the acting Premier not subscribe to the long established parliamentary position of Cabinet solidarity and Cabinet responsibility? Who is speaking for government? It used to be the government spoke with one voice, but who is speaking for government now? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, to my knowledge the government speaks with one voice. The Premier articulates the policy, the ministers articulate the policy, and I have not heard anything that has been in any way inconsistent. We speak with one voice, unlike the bon. gentlemen there opposite. The fact of the matter is our policies are there and they are plain. As I said before, and I will not repeat it again, there really was no inconsistency. The policy of this government is to appoint on the basis of merit.

That is the main criterion, it is the one that has been used since the Public Service Commission was established, and it is one that will be used in the future as well. MR. LUSH: L2814 June 6, 1986 Vol XL A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Bonavista North. - MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, if that is the position of government, that temporary workers are hired on the basis of merit, qualifications and performance, whose policy is it that young people of this Province are hired on the politics of their parents? Whose position is that? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, that position, Mr. Speaker, is, Mr. Speaker, the position of that party, Mr. Speaker, of that party who unfortunately desecrated this Province for twenty years. That is the policy of the Liberal Party but it is not of the Progressive Conservative Party. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR • ·sPF_.AKER: The han. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the President of Treasury Board (Mr.

Windsor) and it has to do with the whole question of how many temporary employees are occupying positions in the public service. My question to you is there are 3500 positions, approximately, in the General Service bargaining unit. Could you tell us how many of No. 48 R2814

those 3500 positions are presently occupied by temporary employees? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I do not have an exact number. There are a number of temporary positions and, as I informed the members of NAPE during the current round of negotiations, that whole policy is being reviewed. There were a number of temporary positions that were created over the past number of years as a result of government's hiring freeze. There were, obviously, some positions that were necessary and temporary positions were approved.

Now that we are moving away from that, and hopefully getting to a more stable employment environment in government we are proposing to review all temporary positions. In fact, we are presently undertaking a thorough review of all temporary positions in government with a view to making those that are indeed permanent temporary positions conform with the Public Service Act and so forth. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK: My supplementary to the President of Treasury Board is: Would he confirm or deny that on April 2, in the negotiations that led up to the end of the illegal strike by the General Service bargaining unit, he himself admitted that there were at least 1000 temporary people involved in these permanent L2815 June 6, 1986 Vol XL positions and that the union in contrast said that they thought the number was closer to 1500? Would he confirm or deny that he said there was about 1000 people, temporary employees, occupying at least something like a third of the 3500 positions in the General Service bargaining unit?

MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of Treasury Board. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, there may well be in the order of 1000 persons but there are more than 5500 persons in the bargaining units that we were talking about so it is not one third. I also point out that many of those positions are temporary and will always be temporary. It depends upon the season. For instance, several hundred snowplow operators ' are hired on in the Winter months who are not employed at this point of the year. There are several hundred firefighters employed by my colleague, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.

Simms), at this point in time who are not on during the Winter season. There are other persons who are employed at various times of the year in temporary positions that will always be temporary positions. The concern of the union, Mr. Speaker, was for those who have been employed in a temporary position for perhaps more than a year. Obviously a person who is in a position for that period of time is not truly in a temporary positions unless it is in a type of position, a type of job classification with responsibilities that will clearly terminate within a specified period of time.

If a person is in a classification that will no doubt be required for a long No. 48 R2815

period of time, then those positions will be reviewd and made permanent. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: There are, according to the Salary Estimates you published this year, 9032 direct positions. My question to the President of Treasury Board is: Yesterday the Premier in answering a question said that 99 to 99.5 per cent of the positions in the public service are permanent positions, filled through the Public Service Commission. You have already said that at least 1,000 of those 9,000 are temporary.

What can you say about the Premier's comments? Can you say to us that he was incorrect, or was he correct or. are you incorrect in your statements? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of Treasury Board. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, the first thing I say about the Premier's comments is that I was listening and the bon. gentleman obviously was not.

What the Premier said yesterday was 99. 99 per cent of all permanent positions filled were filled through the Public Service Commission based on the first recommendation, and in the very, very few positions where the number one candidate was not chosen, there was good and specific reason and it was all done in accordance with the Public Service Commission Act. L2816 June 6, 1986 Vol XL MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FENWICK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the member for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK: I have taken the trouble to check Hansard and indeed the Premier said that 99 to 99.5 per cent were permanent positions, not what the minister said. MR. SPEAKER: Order! There is no point of order. The bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the bon. the Acting Premier.

A memo from the Federal Minister of Employment and Immigration's, Ms Flora MacDonald's office regarding the Canadian Job Strategy Programme suggested that in having New Brunswick quickly conclude a training agreement similar ·to the one signed by Newfoundland that trade-offs are possible. Now, Mr. Speaker, we question that programme and the speed with which it was signed. The memo says Ms MacDonald could bargain federal assistance for a troubled region in return for a federal training programme. Now I would ask the minister, Mr. Speaker, what did we bargain away?

What trade-offs were involved in our signing the agreement as quickly as we did sign it? No. 48 R2816

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is really pathetic. I would just draw Your Honour's attention to the fact that, you know, members on the opposite side come into this House, elected by their constituents to ask questions. With the exception of the hon. member for Menihek, today they come in with tonnes written out fot them. They have not got enough knowledge to get up and ask questions themselves. My response to the han. gentleman is do not be so consummately foolish, do not be so silly.

Ms MacDonald has denied in the House of Commons that there was any trade-off, number one. But that is no concern of ours anyway, that is in another area. I can guarantee the han. gentleman that unlike the Churchill Falls contract there is no trading away of anything by this administration that is any way going to affect the welfare of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: the In view of the memo coming out of Flora MacDonald's office where trade-offs were indeed considered, why were we one of the only three provinces to sign the agreement so quickly? The FFT package, was that part of the trade-off? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: L2817 June 6, 1986 Vol XL Why were we one of the only three? What trade-offs did we have to accept? Because it is becoming obvious that we have to accept trade-offs, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, some trade-off.

We signed one of the best agreements that this Province has ever signed. That is some trade-off. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister confirm that one of the trade-offs was it would give the Tory MPs in Ottawa, Tory MHAs in Newfoundland, the right to identify the projects they wanted and where they wanted them. And if he is not prepared to agree to that, Mr.

Speaker, would he question one of his backbench MHAs who stated that he has the right to identify and locate the programmes he wants in his district under that training programme. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, how silly is that. In the paper and the national news the other day the statistic came out. Now let us take this out of context too. Little Newfoundland has the best job creation performance in all of Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 48 R2817

Hear, hear! MR . MAR SHALL: How do you like that for performance? Sure, the unemployment rate is still high, obviously it is still high, but it is a fact that Newfoundland - now let us not take this out of context - has the best job creation performance in all of Canada. Now how does the hon. gentleman like that? What is the hon. gentleman going to say about that? When he gets up talking about jobs, why not make reference to that? MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFO RD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, what the Minister of Public Works has said repeatedly, over and over again, is a total disgrace to any member of this government. I would ask the Acting Premier, in light of the fact that I have presented two lists of names, yesterday and today, totalling about twenty-seven or twenty-eight names, why is it, if he has the confidence in the Minister of Public Works that he says he has, he not investigate those names and prove either that the Opposition is wrong in their accusations or that the Minister of Public Works is wrong? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: What do you think he is, Sam Spade? L2818 June 6, 1986 Vol XL MR. MARSHALL: The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs has the best answer. He should answer it. The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, not I, said, 'What do you think he is, Sam Spade?' You know, what are we supposed to do, investigate? What does the hon. gentleman want, a Royal Commission into it? Does he want to call in the RCMP? What kind of investigation do you want? MR. EFFORD: Fair play and decency. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: You get fair play and decency.

The hon. gentlemen can paper the walls of this Assembly with lists if they want to, but they will not find any other basis of appointment other than using the criterion of merit for permanent and temporary employees of this government. The hon. gentleman can, as I say, bring in all the lists he wishes, he can concoct all the stories he wants to, but the fact of the matter is they do not bear the light of day because all of the employment has been on the basis of merit and will continue to be. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR.

EFFORD: Some of the names that I have produced on that piece of paper are names of people who have been working here for the last five and six years, hired on by the Minister of Public Works. If that is the case, does the President of No. 48 R2818

the Council agree with the statements made and is he condoning exactly the type of corruption that is being carried out by the Minister of Public Works? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I rise just to say that I have already answered that. It has been entirely on the basis of merit. The hon. gentleman is getting all steamed up now. You have used the word 'corruption' of the Minister of Public Works. On a point of order, I ask,Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman be asked to withdraw it because you cannot allege corruption on the part of any member of this House.

No member on this side can talk about the hon. gentleman being corrupt and neither can the hon. gentleman make any such insinuation. So, on a point of order, I ask Your Honour to take that into consideration and order his withdrawal of it. MR. EFFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave on the point of order. MR. EFFORD: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Well, then, I ask the hon. member to withdraw that term 'corruption'. MR.

EFFORD: On the basis of what the Minister of Public Works and Services admitted on television, that he L2819 June 6, 1986 Vol XL hired on people because of political favours, I do not agree with the statement made by the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! I am requesting the hon. member for Port de Grave to withdraw the term 'corruption'. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, because I respect the rules of the House of Assembly I will withdraw the word 'corruption' . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for- Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Public Works and Services.

Away from the glare of the television lights, in the quiet, serenity and solitude of this House, away fr-om the crafty questions of the press, who, according to the Premier tr-icked ministers into telling the truth, my question to the Minister of Public Works and Services is: In view of the fact that he was asked the question yesterday, given notice, I wonder if the minister can indicate today what time it was that he cancelled the competition for the four permanent positions at the Kelligrews Marine Center? Can he indicate the time today that he cancelled that competition? No. 48 R2819

MR. SP EAK ER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUN G: I am glad, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member for Bonavista North has been able to get up and ask a question now because he is not lobbying me for a job for his son, his wife is not phoning me to get their son a job since he got a job elsewhere, after being offered a job. I noticed that all through the week today is the fir'st time the hon. member' got on his feet and asked a question about employment. Gr'eat job! Mr. Speaker', I was asked that question yester'day afteLnoon.

Actually I do not know when I asked that these four' peLrnanent positions be r'ecruited - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tempor'ar'y positions. MR. YOUNG: Did I said •tempor'ar'y', Mr. Speaker'? I thought I said the four' peLrnanent positions, Mr'. Speaker', would be filled thr'ough the Public Ser'vice Commission. I will get the pr'oper' date. I did say peLrnanent positions would be filled thr'ough the Public Ser'vice Commission. I could not give the exact date, Mr. Speaker, but I will get it for' the hon. gentlemen. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker'. MR.

SP EAK ER: A supplementar'y, the hon. the member' for' Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to get down in the mud with the bon. minister'. I am tr'ying to keep this House on a high level of debate. L2820 June 6, 1986 Vol XL MR. YOUNG: Tell the truth. MR. LUSH: Tell the tr'uth about what? MR. YOUNG: That you r'equested a job for' your' son. MR. LUSH: I cer'tainly did r'equest a job for' my son and I have r'equested jobs for hundreds of other people. My son is a r'eputable person like his father'-MR. J. CARTER: Not like his father. MR. LUSH: - I might add, for' the scum fr'om St.

John's Nor'th (Mr. J. Carter'). SOME HON. ME MBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LUSH: My question to the minister is does the minister' must have some notion of the time that he cancelled this competition? Our' sources of infoLrnation indicate that it might be as long as a year ago. Now can the minister comment on that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Wor'ks and Ser'vices. MR. YOUNG: No, Mr . Speaker. For the han. gentleman's irifoLrnation, he has definitely been misinformed. I think less than a year ago the MED Centre was opened. It was built by federal and provincial money .

The four positions were filled on a temporary basis. When the Department of Public Works and Services took over the centre the jobs at that time were not created. No. 48 R2820

MR. EFFORD: You do not know? MR. YOUNG: r__ do not know exact dates' you know. Government have about 550 buildings in the Province, Mr. Speaker, and I do not know the exact date when this building was opened. But, Mr. Speaker, the positions were filled temporarily. Then we went to Treasury Board and Treasury Board made the positions permanent. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that Treasury Board made the positions permanent probably in late 1985 or early 1986, and then the department filled the position.

I suggested that these positions could be filled internally in my department, and everything was open and aboveboard, and according to regular practice, Mr. Speaker. My department had the authority to fill these permanent positions, Mr. Speaker, but I said no, we will go through the Public Service Commission so they would not be coming back saying the minister overruled this, the minister overruled that. That is where they are going to go, Mr. Speaker, to the Public Service Commission to be filled. If the hon. gentleman finds with that, Mr. help it. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: anything Speaker, I wrong cannot The han. the member for St. Barbe. There is question. MR. FUREY: just time for one These four so-called temporary positions have been temporary for over a year since last April. Could the minister tell us - L2821 June 6, 1986 Vol XL MR. SIMMS: Time is up. MR. FUREY: I know you are having trouble hearing me over there. MR. PATTERSON: Could you tell us about Sally's Cove and the burned ballots? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMS: Time is up, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

FUREY: Could the minister tell us exactly when he cancelled the departmental selection of the four and sent it to the Public Service Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Kr. Speaker, I just said I think that the selection was to be made, Mr. Speaker, from eight names for four positions. I could have picked any of the eight names submitted to me by the Selection Commit tee in my department, but I said, "No, I will not pick any of these eight names. I will go to the Public Service Commission." And that is what I did. MR. FUREY: You do not know? MR.

YOUNG: I just said I do not know, that it was probably early Spring '86. I think it was in the year 1986. No. 48 R2821

MR. FUREY: What has the Public Service not called the competition? MR. YOUNG: It is in the process of being done, Mr. Speaker. I do not know. It is in the process of going through the Public Service Commission. Probably it was April of this year, but I do not know. MR. FUREY: It must be an embarrassment to you. MR. YOUNG: I am not embarrassed. I will tell you why they are asking these questions, Mr. Speaker. It is because one of the gentlemen looking for the job was from the Leader of the Opposition's district, and he did not get the job. Now that is what happened, Mr.

Speaker, and that is how they know all about it. Now I went the right way with it, Mr. Speaker. It is going to the Public Service Commission. I will not pick four names out of eight, Mr. Speaker, but let the Public Service Commission send me four names and then the jobs will be filled permanently . MR. FLIGHT: All to four people from Upper Island Cove. MR. YOUNG: There is not one from Island Cove in there. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. MR. FLIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. L2822 June 6, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my point of order is simply if the job creation project that Newfoundland turned down - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: - was so - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: - why did New Brunswick refuse to sign it - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: - even though it was meant to prop up Hatfield in an election? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. Petitions MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Menihek. MR FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank you for recognizing me.

I have a number of additional petitions with regard to the completion of The Encyclopaedia of Newfoundland No. 48 R2822

and Labrador that Mr. Smallwood has started. I am trying to keep up to date with them. I do not want to fall behind and that is why I have taken this opp9rtunity. MR. PEACH: Bring it up at your convention on the weekend. MR. PATTERSON: I heard you were having your convention in a (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: As a matter of fact, for the members opposite, we do have a resolution going to our convention to endorse the completion of the encyclopedia. We will just see how it goes. Mr.

Speaker, probably if we lay off all the Tories that have been hired by the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) - MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. FENWICK: - we would have plenty of of money to pay for it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: To get to the petition, Mr. Speaker. This one is from Our Saviour King Central High School in Southern Harbour, Placentia Bay and it is signed by fifty-one individuals. It is again, I think, the type of petition that has been coming in on a very regular basis supporting the encyclopedia. These are schools primarily in more isolated areas.

They are ones that have only L2823 June 6, 1986 Vol XL limited library facilities. There is a strong need for resource material that will support the kind of training and the kind· of education that is going on in our schools today. I think it is important that a first-class work, like the one that Mr. Smallwood has started, should be completed. I think it is important that we realize that a first-class work like this should go into those locations. The second one, Mr. Speaker, is from St. John Central High School in Burgee. I apologize to the member who represents the district.

He is not in the House today or I would have passed the petition on to him. It also comes from a high school and it signed, it seems, by the teachers at the high school itself. Burgee, I think, is another example of the kind of community that would benefit tre~endously by it. There has been very little support from the members opposite for the petition. As a matter of fact, other than the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms), I do not believe any of them have actually even spoke to the petition itself. Mr. Speaker, that is probably typical of a party that has such heavy representation from urban areas like St.

John's and Corner Brook where there are good library facilities. In that sense, they realize that it is possible for their students to go the Queen Elizabeth II Library, to look up all the original documents and to be able to do the kind of research necessary. I must stress for them, Mr. Speaker, that the encyclopedia would be of invaluable assistance to them because what will happen is it will save them the trip and, No. 48 R2823

also, all the relevant to things has been in one article. material that is these particular brought together For example, there are articles on communities in there. I believe I saw an

article on Calvert that was in the encyclopedia. It gave a long history of the community itself telling where the settlers came from, what the original name of the place was and the economic history of the settlement. I am not going to say which minister it is because it was in confidence but one of the ministers of the Crown talked to me in confidence and said that there was an

article on his particular area of expertise and that

article was quite well down. It was a first rate operation and it described very well the industry that he was concerned with. So there are a few cracks, I think, appearing in the great blue facade of indifference that we are seeing on the other side of the House right now. I am hoping that they will eventually take the opportunity to go down to your local library and have a look at the first two volumes. I know the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter) said that if he did that, he would get physically ill, but the fact of the matter is I think it is important that they realize that the works that we are talking about are first class research and first class writing. These are actually a tribute, I think, to the Province itself, because they are so well written. They are not of the same calibre, they are a much higher calibre than the material that has been put out by Mr. Smallwood in previous years. L2824 June 6, 1986 Vol XL The third one comes from Jacques Fontaine High School in Bay L'Argent.

Again, it is in Fortune Bay and we are looking at more of these isolated communities that are interested in having this resource available. The next one come from Grand Bank. This is from John Burke High School in Grand Bank. I think this is a very appropriate one. This one was offered to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews), who represents the district of Grand Bank. I asked him to present the petition but he refused, as well as virtually all other members of the Opposition.

But it does indicate that even in the member's own district - he has always told us that he is willing to respond to requests from his district and now there is interest getting this particular in work not completed. Yet, he has responded to it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. member's 'time has elapsed. MR. FENWICK: Okay. I will have to read this in at another time. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: I just have five m~nutes so I want to tr:y to make my points as succinctly as I can.

I also want to point out clearly to people in the gallery, in particular, those No. 48 R2824

who may have exactly what we here. some interest, have transpiring We have the NDP member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick), playing a little political game because, Mr. Speaker, he has over the last number of weeks presented what he says is forty-five or fifty petitions from all around the Province. Well, in fact, Mr. Speaker, these are not in the true sense of the word petitions. These are not petitions that came from the grassroots, from the people themselves.

These are things that were solicited and sent by letter from the member to the schools around the Province and all that kind of foolishness, which said, 'Please respond by putting your name on these petitions. Send them in to me and I will have them presented in the House of Assembly'. So, number one, these are not, in the true sense, petitions as we would normally see them presented in this House and do not forget it, Mr. Speaker. Number two, he is obviously doing it for poll tical reasons, Mr.

Speaker, and his political reasons are these: He is attempting to endear · himself to the Liberal voters of this Province, the younger ones in particular, and I say shame on him for doing that, and trying to gather some of the Liberal support, trying to take some of the Liberal support and move it towards the NDP. That is what he is doing and that is number two. MR. DOYLE: He is succeeding too. MR. SIMMS: Well, I will not get into that. L2825 June 6; 1986 Vol XL Somebody on the opposite might comment on that. side ' Number three, the cost of this project is $1.5 million.

Now, I have spoken to people who signed the petitions in my area who said they were not aware that the cost of the project was $1.5 million and had they been aware, fully, they would have preferred to see that $1.5 million spent elsewhere, to be perfectly frank. The priori ties would not be with the encyclopedia project and I support that. MR. W. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: It seems to me that the hon. member, who was a former Speaker, should know better.

First of all, it is not right to impute motives and he is clearly doing that. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, he knows as well as I do that if a member gets up to support a petition, then it is clearly understood that he must be supporting that petition. So far he has not given any indication to that effect. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I would conclude my remarks if Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: like to I could, To that point of order, there is no point of order. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, my final point is simply this: I heard the hon. member on the news media the other day saying he got interested in this whole project because he No. 48 R2825

taught Newfoundland histo~y at the Bay St. Geo~ge Community College and he found the encyclopedia's fi~st volume to be ve~y helpful to him. Well, Mr. Speaker, why would he not? He is from Ontario! He is not a Newfoundlander and if he was a Native Newfoundlander teaching Newfoundland history, and if the Bay St. George Community College had a Native Newfoundlander teaching Newfoundland history, I suspect they would not find the encyclopedias as helpful as the hon. member has found them. He is from Ontario, so why should he not find them very helpful. So, in cone Ius ion, Mr.

Speaker, I say the $1.5 million that he talks about could be well spent creating jobs in a lot of other areas of the Province and I cannot really support the petition. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I, on behalf of my party, definitely want to stand in my place to support the prayer of the petition from the member from up along because it means an awful lot to our side because former Premier Smallwood certainly did undertake - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, protection please. MR.

PATTERSON: L2826 June 6, 1986 Vol XL Is there a listing for Sally's Cove or (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Former Premier Smallwood did undertake a very monumental and a historic piece of work when he started to collect the history of Newfoundland and form it into an encyclopedia. It is interesting to look, Mr. Speaker, at the opposite side to see what their argument was for not supporting Joe Smallwood's great and historic work to compile the history of this great Province.

The only argument I heard come forward was 'Billy Brown never got any help when he did it. ' Now, Billy Brown is a former Tory leader in this Province, Mr. William Brown, and it is interesting, Mr. Speaker, if that is their only argument, it can be blown out of the water immediately when one looks that Mr. Brown was a private man writing his public memoirs. Well, Joe Smallwood, when he left public life, was a private man writing his public memoirs. Now, Joe Smallwood did not get any help .·for I Chose Canada, nor should Mr. Brown get any help for his private memoirs but it is interesting because he did.

I think this government gave him $5,000 for his private memoi~s. But there is a difference because what we are talking about here is a public document which can be preserved forever and a day. Mr. Speaker, this document is halfway completed and what the han. the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) has been trying to do, with our No. 48 R2826

support and with the support of some of the members over there, is to try to get some money together to help Mr. Smallwood and not necessar~ly for Mr. Smallwood. We have to transcend the boundaries of politics sometimes and look at what the reality is and the reality is that this document would be good for future generations, Mr. Speaker.

It really is incumbent upon members opposite, here is a gigantic opportunity for them to stand aside from Toryism or Liberalism or whatever isms they happen to adhere to, to stand above it, to forget that Joey was a Liberal, forget that he ruled for twenty-three years, forget all the nonsense, to rise above it, to be greater than the small partisan nature that sometimes overtakes all politicians, to rise way above it and to say, "Yes, this is a golden opportunity, Mr. Speaker. What a giant opportunity to preserve forever and a day the history, the culture, everything unique about this great Province!" Mr.

Speaker, they will be remembered well if they help us to try to complete this project. Generations hence will look back and say, "These were people who set aside their politics and who looked after ,the history for themselves, for their children, for all future generations of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians." MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have L2827 June 6, 1986 Vol XL a few comments before I present my petition.

I have always taken the position that the member for Menihek's petitions which he brings in every day are frivilous, not in the proper form and are just not proper petitions. So, if he can present a silly petition, I have one that is not so silly but equally frivilous. "We petition the House of Assembly to bar the member from Menihek from this Assembly." It is signed by myself and two other members of this Assembly. I would just like to speak on it for a moment or two. I think the member for Menihek is wasting the time of this House and he is bringing in frivilous petitions.

I would just like to make this point and here it is. I hope it is referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! I am quite sure all hon. members will agree that that is not a petition in the strict sense. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak to the petition. Is it ruled as a petition? MR. SPEAKER: It is not a valid petition. MR. FENWICK: Okay. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): I would like to make a point to the hon. member for Menihek on these petitions. I did not rule them out of order because, obviously, the people who signed them signed them in good faith.

However, a petition is properly No. 48 R2827

addressed to the House of Assembly, not to the government. In future, you should realize that. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public wo·rks. MR. YOUNG: I wonder could I have leave, Mr. Speaker, to revert to Presenting Reports By Standing And Special Committees? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SPEAKER: By leave. The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I do apologize to the House because during the latter part of Question Period, I went down to speak with some mayors. Mr.

Speaker it gives me great pleasure to present the Annual Report of the Department of Public Works and Services. I may say, Mr. Speaker, that this year in that report, at the request of some of the press, we have listed the prime consultants. Also, Mr. Speaker, accompanying that annual report is something we started as of April 1 and the Department of Public Works and Services is doing it every month. Here is an up-to-date list of all the public tenders that have been awarded. MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Agricultural Minister and L2828 June 6, 1986 of Rural, Northern Vol XL Development.

MR. R. AYLWARD: By leave, if hon. members would not object, I would like to present the report of the Newfoundland Crop Insurance Agency. MR. SPEAKER: Does the bon. minister have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. R. AYLWARD: Presented. Orders of the Day Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Prisons Act, The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary Act And The St. John's Fire Department Act, 1972." (Bill No. 12) MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, thank you.

I am pleased to introduce this bill which, as Your Honour has just said, contains amendments to three of our Statutes, the Prisons Act, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary Act and the St. John's Fire Department Act, 1972. These three pieces of legislation govern these three provincial government uniformed forces. The legislation sets out a framework for disciplinary matters within the Penitentiary system of the Province, as well as the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and the St. John's Fire Department. The acts enable the Lieutenant No. 48 R2828

Governor in Council regulations disciplinary matters. to make respecting Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill, containing amendments to those Statutes, is to ensure that our law complies with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and specifically to make certain that disciplinary processes within our Penitentiary system, within the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and the St.

John's Fire Department are fair, comply with the Charter, as I have said, which in turn, of course, reflects the rules of natural justice, and generally to ensure that individuals who are the subject of disciplinary proceedings within our uniformed forces are treated fairly. Mr. Speaker, really need explanation this bill. I think that is all I to say now by way of of the principle of I will listen to comments of members opposite and, of course, we can deal with specifics at a later stage of the debate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W.

CARTER: We are not going to debate this bill at length, but there are two questions, I think, that need to be answered by the minister. First of all, the proposed changes in the legislation: Has there been consultation with the Police Brotherhood, for example, or the unions having to do with the Fire Department, the people who will be affected by this change? Has L2829 June 6, 1986 Vol XL there been consultation and are they concurring with the proposed changes? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, yes.

I can assure the member for Twillingate that officials of the Department of Justice, who have advised me and who are involved in the preparation of this bill, did consult with the uniformed forces affected. In the case of the Newfoundland Constabulary, consulted with the Royal they Police Association - it is no longer called the Brotherhood, because, of course, now we do have a few women in the force and we hope to attract more women in the future - as well as the senior officers of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, and all those groups are in agreement with the contents of the bill. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: This bill is basically the department's thrust in complying with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, is that right? Is this part and parcel of the overall movement towards that? Because the bill basically suggests that in its explanatory note, I think. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and I tried to highlight that in my introductory No. 48 R2829

remarks . MR. FUREY: So what we are saying, then, is that basically in disciplinary matters we are ensuring that under the umbrella of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms our Department of Justice in this Province does not treat somebody unfairly? That is basically it, is it? MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SP EAK ER : The han. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I want to use this amendment to draw a situation to the attention of the minister. She talked about disciplinary action in certain instances. There was an incident in Grand Falls a few days ago, Mr.

Speaker, where the RCMP caused a high speed chase to take place, and the RCMP admitted afterward that speeds of up to 160 kilometers per hour had been reached on the road from Grand Falls to Peterview. Now if the minister is not familiar with the geography, that is roughly seventeen or eighteen miles. The driver of that car had to negotiate a cloverleaf; the chase would have had to have taken place on some of that seventeen miles sparsely populated area. I want to know if the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge) encourages or condones that kind of law enforcement.

One does not have to use much imagination to recognize what would have happened to the two occupants of that car if it had gone out of control, it had gone off the road or, worse still, had careened across the highroad into oncoming traffic. I cannot imagine a crime being so severe L2830 June 6, 1986 Vol XL that you would endanger the lives of the occupants of the speeding car, the criminals they were chasing, or the lives of innocent members of the general public who were on that highroad.

This happened at 12: 30 at night, so I realize that the traffic may not have been as congested as it usually is, but that is a very heavy traffic area, from Grand Falls to Botwood. Once that car pulled off the Trans-Canada, going in towards Botwood it was trapped, it was on a dead end. They could not come back. The RCMP had other options. I do not know why, based on the facts as I have them, the RCMP would not have had the licence plate number of that car. There is a detachment in Botwood that could have been contacted to set up road blocks.

I would point out to the minister that there are a lot of people in Newfoundland who are concerned about that kind of police procedure and whether or not it is justified, and whether or not the risk to the lives of the occupants of the fleeing car and the pursuing police officers, whether it be the RCMP or the Constabulary, is justified. There are concerns for the lives of the police, the lives of the drivers of the car whom they are trying to apprehend, and the lives of members of the general public who may be in the path of those speeding vehicles.

There are a lot of people who doubt that this should be acceptable in Newfoundland and who wonder whether · or not the RCMP, or the Constabulary, have other alternatives. I would ask the minister her opinion on that and whether or not she condones it. I would also like to know whether or not she is prepared to have the RCMP and the Constabulary initiate other means No. 48 R2830

of apprehension? Is there not a better way than putting the lives of innocent people at risk simply to apprehend, in this case the driver of a car, when the charges against the driver are a stolen automobile and dangerous driving? Well, I would guess it is dangerous driving - 160 kilometers an hour from Botwood to Peterview. They never did catch the car, it ran out of gas in Peterview. We are talking about a twenty year old here who could have very easily panicked under the circumstances. They see too many Rambo movies, Miami Vice or whatever.

Here we have an incident where suddenly there was a high speed chase, 160 kilometers an hour, on that road. That is roughly between 100 and 110 miles an hour. Mr. Speaker, I am not questioning the RCMP' s sense of responsibility, I am not questioning their desire, but I, personally, do not believe that that type of thing should happen. I do not think it is in the better interest of the RCMP or the general public for that kind of thing to happen. There must be better ways.

I would suspect that the result of that kind of high speed chase more often than not is more tragic than the crime committed, whatever it might have been that caused that high speed chase in the first place. I W'onder if the minister would tell the House how she feels about that kind of incident? MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now she closes the debate. The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. L2831 June 6, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, until the member for Windsor - Buchans raised the incident which he just outlined, I had no knowledge of it and, of course, cannot comment on it.

I would invite the member to see me outside the House and give me more particulars, including a date for the incident to which he referred, and I will arrange to have senior officials of the Department of Justice take it up with the Chief Superintendent of the RCMP. As the member himself acknowledges, the RCMP have a very great sense . of their responsibility and generally do a very good job of discharging that responsibility.

But one way the RCMP and the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary improve themselves, and they acknowledge this, is through the receipt of comments, and sometimes complaints by private citizens, so I would encourage the member opposite, if he indeed is seriously concerned about the highway incident which he outlined, to raise it with me immediately after this debate and we will have it investigated through the senior peep le in the Department of Justice and by the Chief superintendent of the RCMP. Mr.

Speaker, as I explained when I introduced this bill, the primary purpose of it is to ensure that disciplinary proceedings within the provincial government uniformed services, the Penitentiary service, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and the St. John's Fire Department, meet the requirements of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and to ensure that individuals who are the subject of disciplinary proceedings are treated fairly and have their rights protected. With those remarks, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of this bill. No. 48 R2831

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Prisons Act, The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary Act And The St. John's Fire Department Act, 1972," read a s~cond time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 12) MR. MARSHALL: Order 9. Bill No. 4. Mot~on, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act," (Bill No. 4) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, just a very brief introduction because, fortunately, even though this is an income tax Act, it has nothing to do with provincial taxes, in any case.

We, like not all but most other provinces, are a party to the Canada - Newfoundland Tax Collection agreement with the federal government, and this means that our Income Tax Act in this Province has to be amended to be in conformity with amendments to the federal Income Tax Act as changes are made there through the various federal budgets. So this bill has to be introduced every so often. I can assure hon. members that

whereas the changes here may well be of importance to accountants and income tax specialists or, I suppose, to the odd individual who considers himself an expert in income tax, other than those people, the changes are, strictly speaking, of a housekeeping nature. They are of a necessary nature. They have to do with things like forward averaging and withholding tax and these rather L2832 June 6, 1986 Vol XL arcane things that I am sure not many people know much about and are usually left in the hands of consultants and accountants. With those words, I move second reading. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, when we talk about income tax and the Department of National Revenue, I am sure any member here can probably speak for days on some of the problems that we see in that department. And, while this might not have any direct bearing on the proposed amendments, Mr. Speaker, I do think it is worth noting that the Department of National Revenue, and the Province must share some responsibility, I suppose, for this problem; it is becoming a bureaucrat's nightmare, the forms we now have to fill out.

I know this has been said before in the House of Commons and maybe here, but the amount of bureaucracy that now engulfs that department is almost frightening. And the attitude sometimes, of some of their collectors, for example, and some of the people who work in that department, I believe, needs to be brought out into the open. But certainly, Mr. Speaker, in terms of the income tax return itself, surely there most be · a simpler way of collecting taxes. It has come to the point now where you cannot afford not to have an accountant do your income tax for you.

To do otherwise, would be risking having your return rejected, having long drawn out litigation, maybe, or harassment from the Department of Taxation. No. 48 R2832

And again, I repeat, I realize this is not the minister's responsibility. I think maybe the time has come for Canadians - and maybe we in this- -Province should take the lead in this area - to insist that the Department of National Revenue simplify the forms that taxpayers are required to fill out. It is nothing short of a nightmare to have to deal with the Department of Taxation, and for people who are unfortunate enough to owe money to that department, it, too, is a nightmare.

I have cases in my own district of Twillingate where fishermen have been unfortunate enough to have been caught owing the tax department money, allegedly or otherwise. I know for a fact that the lives of these fishermen are being made just about unbearable. The Tax Department, I know, in one case, arbitrarily set a figure that the fisherman was alleged to owe them. Of course, the amount in question was not paid because, first of all, the fisherman concerned is disputing the amount and, secondly, even if the amount is proven to be correct, the fellow does not have the money to pay it.

That person' s credit rating has been affected; it was reported, I think, to the credit bureaus in the Province and that gentleman who is a fisherman that is the only job he knows, the only way he has to make a living - a little while ago applied to the Provincial Fisheries Loan Board for a $3,500 loan with which he hoped to buy a small boat to enable him to pursue his occupation and that loan was refused, I am told, on the basis of information supplied the Loan Board by the taxation department and, I assume, the credit bureau to which it was reported. L2833 June 6, 1986 Vol XL So, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the taxation people are getting away with too much. They seem to be all-powerful, all-might, and, like I said, to deal with them is to be humiliated, to be demeaned and embarrassed and harassed. I believe the time has come for people to start to maybe stand up and object to some of the tactics used by that department.

Again, I repeat, the day when a Canadian, an ordinary worker, be it a labourer, a member of parliament, a doctor or lawyer or anyone, has got to go to the expense, for example, of paying a chartered accountant to fill in his income tax, then, I believe the time has come for some drastic changes to be made in the whole procedure of collecting and reporting income to the Tax Department. I know, in my own case, I would not dare attempt to fill_ out my income tax without the advice of an accountant.

I do not have that much to report, and I am sure most members here are in pretty well the same boat, but it would be foolhardiness almost to attempt to even be your own accountant. There is an old saying that a man who defends himself in court has a fool for a client, or words to that effect. That is like it is now in terms of doing your own income tax. Any taxpayer who tries to look after his own affairs and fill in his own form, I am afraid is courting danger. Mr.

Speaker, as the minister said, this is more or less a piece of housekeeping legislation and I am not sure there is too much in it to which we can object, except some of the points I have already raised. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): No. 48 R2833

If the han. minister speaks now he closes debate. The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I can only agree with most of the comments made by the han. member. I would say, though, that unfortunately it does seem to be a fact of modern life that everything gets more and more complicated.

I agree with him that it is probably unwise on most people's parts not have an accountant do their income tax, in the same way, I suppose, it would be unwise for anyone to draw up a mortgage if they were contemplating building or buying a house; you would be well advised to get a lawyer in on it even though again this is a necessity of life and it should be a simple thing. But, I mean, the realities are you are walking into a mine field if you do that.

I agree with the hon. member, I think you are walking into · a mine field if you are not ext['emely careful and extremely knowledgeable in filling in your income tax form. I would say, though, that present federal administ['ation made and is making efforts to to get the administration of income tax procedure equitable, fairer, and courteous. I really think have made good moves in regard. the has try the more more they that Secondly, tax reform is a big issue now, and I would say that over the next few years we will see tax reform.

Hopefully it will be simpler, but I am not too enthused that way, because wheneve[' we ['eform we tend to complicate rather that simplify. So I move second reading. L2834 June 6, 1986 Vol XL On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 4). MR. MARSHALL: Order 10, Bill No. 26. Mr. Speaker, for your assistance, · I believe the Chair will verify this, this bill has already been introduced by the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge). The Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Barry) has already spoken to it, and I believe at the time it was adjourned - the time of the House was running out - the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) had the floor and was asking certain questions. I do not know whether he wishes to pursue them or not. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that Bill No. 26, "An Act To Implement The Convention Between Canada And The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Providing For the Reciprocal Recognition And Enforcement Of Judgements In Civil And Commercial Matters." The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Actually I did not have a lot to say on it.

It was by way of a few questions to the Minister of Justice which I have not had a chance to ask privately. Am I correct in assuming that the passage of this bill will mean that if an individual in this Province is divorced and then essentially kidnaps back their kids from the person who has legal custody and goes to Great Britain that any orders in our Province, or in our country can now be enforced in Great Britain? That is the only area that I was No. 48 R2834

.l.' curious about. It is one of the areas that I know has been a constant source of concern to many people for quite a long period of time, in that there have been very difficult times in custody cases involving marriages that have fallen apart, and the orders of a particular jurisdiction are not enforceable in others. I was wondering if this addresses this and, if it does address it, could the minister say so. If not, is there anything in the works to address that particular problem? Because it seems to me one that several civilized jurisdictions should be able to- get together on and do something about. MR.

SPEAKER: If the minister speaks now she will close the debate. The bon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, · this bill with the attached convention covers civil and comme~cial judgements other than a number of types of judgements which are set out in

part 2,

article 2,

section 2 of the convention. Among the types of judgements not covered are judgements in family matters. But I hasten to add, Mr. Speaker, that we do have provisions through other legislation and conventions for reciprocal enforcement of judgements in family matters, including custody, access, maintenance and, of course, divorce between Canada and the United Kingdom which cover this Province as part of Canada. But, Mr. Speaker, this bill and the attached convention relate to civil other and than commercial judgements matters. L2835 June 6, 1986 judgements, in family Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, the thrust of it is what the member for Menihek (Hr. Fenwick) outlined and which, I suppose, is implied in the title an<i _ that is, namely, to recognize the mobility of people in the present day world, to recognize that people from time to time are changing their residence from Newfoundland to England and vise versa.

People can easily move all around the globe and parties to a judgement or order made by a Newfoundland court, who later find themselves in the United Kingdom, or, in the case of a judgement creditor in Newfoundland who finds that the judgement debtor is in the United Kingdom, can arrange for the Newfoundland court order being enforced by the United Kingdom court against the judgement debtor then resident in the United Kingdom and vice versa.

The convention itself contains a provision that a judgement of the United Kingdom which is contrary to public policy in Canada or in Newfoundland, may be ~efused ~egist~ation by the Newfoundland cou~t. So, Mr. Speaker, what we are ensuring is that judgements affecting people in Newfoundland involving pa~ties in the United Kingdom or who move to the United Kingdom, judgements which are consistent with the public policy of Newfoundland and the court policy of Newfoundland, may be enforced. With those ~ema~ks, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of this bill.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Implement The Convention Between Canada And The United Kingdom Of Great Britian And Northern Ireland Providing For The Reciprocal Recognition And Enforcement Of Judgments In Civil And Commercial No. 48 R2835

Mattet"s," t"ead a second time, ot"det"ed t"efet"t"ed to a Committee of the Whole House on tomot"t"ow. (Bill No. 26) Motion, second t"eading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Leaseholds In St. John's Act." (Bill No. 48) MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Pt"esident of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mt". Speaket", this . is an amendment to the Leaseholds in St. John's Act. Just fat" a few moments I want to give han. membet"s a bt"ief histot"y of that act, and at the same time give them an appt"eciation of what the bill does and what this amendment addt"esses. Many of the homes in the city of St.

John's in the at"ea South of Empit"e Avenue and pt"etty well ft"om, I think, PatLick Stt"eet East down to Quidi Vidi, at"e built upon leasehold land. This land was leased in the 1880s and the 1890s, and some of them in the 1870s, fat" ninety-nine yeat"s on vacant land. The pt"ovisions of all of these leases pat"ticulat"ly was that a house would be built on that land by the pet"son who leased. What has evolved ovet" a pet"iod of time is that people have theit" homes in effect on land to which they do not have the absolute title.

A lot of these ninety-nine yeat" leases dating ft"om the 1880s have expit"ed and came up fat" t"enewal. But fot" the Leaseholds in St. John's Act what would have happened is that these landlot"ds would in effect be able to come in and take ovet" the pt"opet"ties, Ot" cet"tainly at the vecy least would have to t"enew them on the basis of a t"ent as if the land wet"e vacant.

L2836 June 6, 1986 Vol XL Govet"nment thought in the 1970s that this was vet"y fictitious, that it would opet"ate as a manifest injustice to the ownet"s of these t"esidences because, having maintained theit" homes fat" about eighty at" ninety yeat"s het"e all of a sudden they would find themselves having to buy the land as if it wet"e vacant land. Some people have desct"ibed the law as being an ass and this is one place whet"e it could be so considet"ed because it was vet"y fictitious. It was sot"t of silly to say as if it wet"e vacant land when people's homes and theit" lifetime investment.

So what we did in 1977 is was bt"ing in The Leasehold In St. John's Act and we pt"ovided that all t"esidential homes built upon such land wet"e able to be put"chased, if the lease was entet"ed into befot"e 1923, fat" fot"ty times the annual gt"ound t"ent. In othet" wot"ds, what govet"nment did was set a value of compensation to the landownet". Since most of the t"ents wet"e in the vicinity of $15 to $20 to $30, this would mean that they could buy out theit" land at a multiple of fot"ty times the annual gt"ound t"ent, $300, $400, $600 ot" what have you depending upon theit" t"ent.

It was felt that this was a vet"y t"easonable, and it was a vet"y t"easonable compensation, Mt". Speaket". Let us take a t"ental of $20 a yeat" as an example. Somebody paying a t"ental fat" $20 a yeat" on land would have to pay out of that municipal taxes, and would have to pay othet" taxes as well, pt"imat"ily the pt"opet"ty tax and municipal taxes, so they would not even net less than $20. So take a t"ent of $20 a yeat", multiply it by fot"ty and you get $800. Take that $800 and put it No. 48 R2836

in the bank and you will per year in perpetuity interest rate stays at an of about 10 per cent. get $80 if the average So it will deemed to be reasonable compensation. The compensation was set after consultation with some people who are very knowledgeable in the area, who had acted for absentee landlords from time to time. We were told that it was reasonable and, in fact, it was reasonable. In fact, it has had a very, very positive effect in the older parts of the city of St. John's because niany of the leases have been bought up, so people could buy the freehold.

Having bought the freehold, then they were free to be able to get the necessary mortgage financing which had been denied to them before because of their titles. One of the reasons why we see the older housing stock' in St. John's improve to the degree that it has has been because of this Leasehold Act. There are other programmes that we brought in, such as neighbourhood . improvement as well, but there would not have been this improvement without the Leasehold in St. John's Act putting on a much more stable basis the titles of the people in the downtown area. As I say, it worked.

But there were certain people, certain landlords who stayed up overnight, got batteries of lawyers to look at the bill, and they found loopholes in it to either make it very, very difficult for certain types of properties to be acquired and very,. very expensive for them to do it. Now, we brought in an amendment a few years ago, but again they stayed up overnight and still found loopholes, so this is another amendment to plug another L2837 June 6, 1986 Vol XL loophole, that I will get to in a moment, and to improve the bill itself.

The press would do us a great favour if the message went out loud and clear from this Legislature and from this government that as far as the Government of Newfoundland is concerned landlords might just as well stop their resistance. The landlords are getting a fair recompense because we are absolutely determined that people who have residential properties, particularly those who have lived in them over the years, are going to have this right and enjoy this right to buy out their lands at forty times the annual ground rent.

So landlords could save themselves a lot of trouble, they could save themselves a lot of legal expenses if they would just accept that particular fact and sign over the deeds. Now, I want to emphasize that the act has been effective with respect to at least 90 per cent to 95 per cent of the properties involved, and there has been cooperation for about 90 per cent to 95 per cent, but there is a small body of people who have put into dispute certain issues in the act.

One of the favourite ones is to put into dispute as to whether the property was occupied or used for residential purposes or not, and then it would have to go to an arbitration board. The arbitration costs were not unfair in many cases. I do not criticize the arbitration boards, but whether they are labour arbitrations or any kind of arbitrations these arbitration boards are costly. In most cases these arbitration boards were most unnecessary and were being used by certain dissatisfied landlords to try to hold up the operations of the act. No. 48 R2837

So, the main thing that we are trying to do in this particular provision - not trying; I am sure we have done it in this particular case - is to prevent those reluctant landlords in the future from using the arbitration process to cast a large burden upon the home-owner and thus really frustrate the operation of the act.

What the bill does is say that the proceeding now to be used - and I want to emphasize again this applies to only a very small percentage - by the residential owners, the home-owners is they will give notice to the landlord or to the agent for the landlord that they want to buy that freehold and then, once they give that notice, it is deemed that it is for residential purposes and within thirty days thereafte, if there is no dispute by the landlord - because there can be certain cases where the land is not for residential purposes, and we are not concerned about commercial areas, let that go on the basis as before, like downtown Water Street or wherever it may be - is that they negotiate with the landlords over a period of time.

We are not interferring with that, but we are just doing it with respect to the home-owners. Once that notice has been given and there is no response, it is then deemed to be a residential tenancy and, if the landlord will not sign the conveyance, this bill gives the power to the Registrar of the Supreme Court to sign a valid conveyance of the freehold, the money will be paid into court, and it can stay there on deposit, or the 5 per cent of reluctant landlords can take it, but they will have no more interest in the property.

You have to be . careful when you L2838 June 6, 1986 Vol XL are dealing with rights, you have to be fair. In the event that somebody gives notice that the land is used for residential purposes within the meaning of the act when in fact it is used for commercial purposes, that is a legitimate complaint by the landlord. There may be a legitimate issue, and in that particular case, Mr. Speaker, it can go to arbitration.

But then it crossed our minds that if you give a loophole like that, these people who are staying up overnight to try to circumvent this beneficial piece of legislation will again try to get it into arbitration because, as it were, there would be no skin off their nose and they would cast a large burden on the home-owners, many of whom, by the way, are widows and elderly people, _elderly couples in the Gower Street, Bond Street, Colonial Street, Victoria Street areas of the city. So what we are going to do, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to that is we will say if the landlord objects, as he can within that thirty day period, there will be an arbitration. But in order for an arbitration to take place that landlord has to post security for the total cost of that arbitration board.

And if the arbitration board finds it is residential and that home-owner had the right to buy it from the very beginning for forty times the annual ground rent, then the landlord will have to pay all of the arbitration so that that widow or that elderly couple or that home-owner will not be in any different position financially than if they had been able to buy it in the first place. So that is a major thing this bill does. There are a few other things as well, but before I get No. 48 R2838

on to the others I want to emphasize again that it is just as well for the absentee landlords, and those who are here who are reluctant to sign the conveyance to accept the law as it is, and to realize the fact that this government is not going to tolerate homes being taken over because of leases that were signed some 90 or 100 years ago by people who are obviously the heirs and the new owners of the freehold. So they might just as well stop and not waste their time on this because we are absolutely determined that everybody in that area is going to have that right.

Now there are one or two other 1i t tle things done here which, by way of clarification, were necessary. Some of these clarifications by the way are also meant to prevent certain questions being asked and certain bogus issues being raised to cause difficulties for these people in buying their land. "Clause 1 would clarify when a land is vacant land for the purposes of the Act". And what it says is that, "land on which a leasee erected a building before a lease with respect to the land was entered into shall be considered to be vacant land for the purposes of the Act".

The reason for that is some of them were being able to get over the operation of the act because the way the act read you could only buy it if it were vacant land leased years ago for the purpose of building a house. And some of them were coming in with old plans that showed a house on the land prior to the _lease. But very often what happened there was the lease that we had before us was a renewal of a lease that had been L2839 June 6, 1986 Vol XL made early, perhaps, in the nineteenth century. So the criterion is there. That has now been removed.

As long as it is for a residential purpose and is on leased land in that area, they have the right to buy it out. We also have an extension of the time for leaseholders to buy their land in the event of leases that are expired from 1987 to 1992. Now, what happened is that when we brought in the last amendment we had a situation where there were two elderly widows who had lived in the older parts of St.

John's for all their lives, through their married life and widowhood, about sixty years in a house and their lease had expired, they had no right to get the freehold, and their absentee landlord was trying to evict them from the house they had lived in for some fifty to sixty years. We met that in our amendment in the early 1980s by saying that all leases would be deemed to be current until 1987. Now we have extended that to 1992. We can tell . any absentee landlord that we will extend it if necessary to 2092 because there is no way that these people are going to be prevented from getting their freehold titles.

MR. W. CARTER: Why are you extending it. MR. MARSHALL: Well, we have 1992 because of the fact you have to have certainty into it, but I am just giving notice that it will go to 2092 if necessary. Clause 3 would clarify when land is in use for corrunercial or residential purposes. I think that is self- explanatory. We have also clarified the position during currency of the lease. The No. 48 R2839

Act itself says you can buy it out at any time during the currency of the lease. What has been raised from time to time is that rent is in arrears or taxes are payable and therefore it is not current within the meaning of the Act so therefore you have no right to buy it. We have even cut that out because we say that will not have any effect whatsoever on the currency of the lease. I think I have given a full explanation of the Bill, Mr. Speaker. It is a positive act by this government to protect owners of residental homes in the area generally South of Empire Avenue and East of Parade Street.

It is one I think whose benefits have already been seen in the older areas of St. John • s because there has been a marked improvement. I just want to emphasize once again that this makes it possible for residential . owners to buy their freehold. I want to get the message out loud and clear to the very small minority of landowners who have been resisting it, and to the batteries of lawyers they have hired in order to try and obviate it, that it is just as well to give up the battle.

Because if we have to bring in another amendment every year, or four or five amendments every year we will do it because those people have the right to buy the land upon which their homes have stood for some eighty to one hundred years. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, if it never happens again in this session I think this L2840 June 6, 1986 Vol XL is one time when the Opposition will agree wholeheartedly with the comments made by the President of the Council. There are a few questions, I think, that need to be answered.

But certainly if there is anything that drives my blood pressure up to the dangerous point it is hearing stories about absentee landlords and about problems created by absentee landlords and their lawyers, for people who have property situated on this leasehold land, and some of the problems that are being caused by this situation. It is made all the more serious, Mr. Speaker, when you realize the method by which some of this land was acquired back when it was acquired, in some cases, I suppose, 150 years ago.

I recall quite vividly an experience I had not too long ago, in fact, when I had a certain property in a certain part of St. John's on which there was a commercial building. It was on leasehold land. We sold the property. The new owner wanted to finance the purchase of it and he found that there were only six or eight years left on the lease. Of course we all know that would not be acceptable to any lending institution. So we had to set about the job of freeholding that land. Well, if there is ever an experience that I had that made me viciously mad, it was that one.

All the more when I found out, my lawyer having traced back the origin of the lease - I think it went back to the mid-1900s and how this person to whom we had to pay homage, we had to pay almost blackmail, in order to get a freehold to that property - that the land was originally owned by a certain young lady, back about 150 No. 48 R2840

years ago, who carne to St. John's and somewhere in the downtown area started a house of ill-repute. Apparently she was a very popular young lady, very beautiful, very attractive and business flourished. It carne to light that the land on which my building was erected, as was the land all over certain parts of the city - I will not name the area - but certainly in this particular case there are probably twenty-five or thirty pieces of property in this town situated on little blocks of land owned by the same landlady.

We found out, of course, that in my case the land I had to pay a considerable amount of money to get freehold on was given to this young lady for favours received by a certain wealthy St. John's businessman of probably 150 years ago. Now, it is bad enough to have to pay a lot of money to get a piece . of land freehold but when you find out how she came about that land, then it makes it all the harder. Mr. Speaker, the act is long overdue. There are people today living in a part of St. John's that is commonly known as rabbit town. It is the area, say, around the Newtown Road, Empire Avenue area, and Mayor Avenue.

There is a large block of land there that is owned by a certain estate, an absentee landlord. I think in this case that person is living in the U.S. I think they might have some descendants here who would be looking after it through their lawyer. I know of people living in that area, on that block of land, for example, and this takes in the Goodrich Street - Allandale Road - Aldershot Street L2841 June 6, 1986 Vol XL Salisbury Str.eet - Newtown Road area. I know they have had all kinds of trouble.

People who applied for mortgages, in some cases people have sold their properties and had all kinds of trouble getting title to their properties by virtue of the fact that land on which their homes were built happen to be leased to them by one who is now an absentee landlord. People carne in here, in some cases, Englishmen, Americans and others, came in here and got land through one means or another. I just explained how my freehold land carne about. And they have 'been collecting rents on this land now for many, many years. I think it is wrong, and I am glad the government has seen fit to bring in this bill.

I noticed the minister, in introducing the legislation - and maybe there is a reason, I think it has something to do with the City of St. John's Act. But he limits the action that can be taken under the bill to 1923. Leases entered into prior to that date - MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible). MR. W. CARTER: All right. MR. MARSHALL: After 1923, most of those leases are able to be bought out at twenty times the annual ground rent. MR. W. CARTER: After 1923? MR. MARSHALL: Yes, because in 1923 there was

an act brought in that gave the right to buy out the freehold for twenty times the annual ground rent No. 48 R2841

beyond 1923. MR. W. CARTER: Prior to that, it was forty times. MR. MARSHALL: But the problem was they did not do it from 1923 backwards. MR. W. CARTER: But is it forty times or twenty times? MR. MARSHALL: It is forty times for 1923 backwards, but most of them after 1923 are twenty times. MR. W. CARTER: Well, maybe, · Mr. Speaker, the forty times should be looked at. I do not know if charging a person forty times the rent is right, even though I know that in some cases, the amount is very, very minimal.

But, again, when you realize how some of this land was acquired in the first place, even to pay forty times hardly seems fair. Now, the minister does not seem to be too concerned about commercial properties erected on leasehold land. Now, that might be all very well too, because we know there are huge businesses in this town. The Newman Estate on Water Street, for example, where we now have Atlantic Place, I suppose, and the new Bank of Nova Scotia building being built. They have considerable properties downtown.

Now, I do not have too much sympathy for that situation, but there are small businessmen, small shopkeepers in this Province. There are a lot of them on Duckworth Street. MR. MARSHALL: If the building has a residence in L2842 June 6, 1986 Vol XL it, it is residential. MR. W. CARTER: to be considered Yes, if it was occupied as a residence prior to a certain date, I think. MR. MARSHALL: The upstairs. MR. W. CARTER: Yes, prior to a certain date . Well, that is all very well, too, Mr. Speaker, but in some cases, some of these little shops do not now have any residential content whatever.

Maybe at one time they were occupied on the second flat by the -owner. MR. FENWICK: If it was that way in March, 1977, the Act covers it. MR. W. CARTER: Yes, but I think there is a point to be made here. A lot of small businesses without any residential content whatever now fa,ce the dilemma of having to cope with the problem of leasehold property and having to again deal with, in some cases, unscrupulous absentee landlords, represented here by lawyers who - and I suppose that is to be expected - are there to represent the interests of 'their client.

Whether he is an absentee landlord or a thoroughbred Newfoundlander, it does not matter. Mr. Speaker, that can be very annoying as well as costly. I know some small businesses which operate in buildings erected on leasehold property or leasehold land. When the time comes maybe to refinance their operations or to sell, there are similar problems. Again I repeat, I am not too concerned about the Atlantic Place No. 48 R2842

or the Bank of Nova Scotia type of a situation but there like I said small family-owned businesses operating on land that is now leasehold and it is a source of great concern and irritation to the owners of these properties who have to refinance or, at some time or other, sell. Mr. Speaker, there is not much more I need to say on this except to repeat that I think this is an excellent move on the minister's part. We support him on this side '. We only wish that it had been done a long, long time ago because it would have prevented a lot of misery on the part of a lot of people.

So we support it and we would ask the minister to give some thought to maybe some time soon of amending the act again to include small commerical premises in which there is no residential content to give those people a break too. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Hickey) : The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am quite pleased to see the legislation as well.

I was quite interested in the problems that arose last Winter, I believe in November or December, in which individuals were, probably the only words are badgered and harassed by arbitraril action they had to go through. At that time I wrote the minister and asked what kind of corrections could be done at the time? I think we actually asked it as a question in the House at the time about what action was in train? I believe that Bill No. 48 with be the L2843 June 6, 1986 Vol XL substance of it.

So, in order to indicate that our House does reach degrees of ·unanimity at times, I also am very much in favour of the legislation. I hope it works, I think as . much the same as the minister does, but I think what is probably more important as the minister has indicated that if it does not work, it will be fixed again until it does work. I think that is the kind of commitment that should at least clarify things for the parties involved. Hopefully we will see the end of the situation where it estates have badgered people into giving up rights that they actually have.

Having said that, however, I would like to bring up another question which, to me, is so similar as to be almost worthy of inclusion under a piece of legislation such as this. That has to do with what I think is the modern day equivalent of the situation that we had in the nineteenth century where individuals have built houses on lands that they have leased. That is the problem of individuals who have trailers that they own on leased land.

I think all the members of the House are familiar with the situation with the Glenvilla Trailer Court, and it is a situation that has striking similarities to the situation that has been corrected by this piece of legislation. What I would like to do is ask the minister to think about the analogies to see perhaps if maybe there might be other kinds of legislation that may be drafted to look after their problems. Here we upwards No. 48 have a situation of seventy or where eighty R2843

families living in ' trailers, some of them for as long as fifteen or twenty years, are in a situation now where they are forced to move the trailers and move the trailers, most likely, to a trailer court in which they would be expected to expend something in the neighbourhood of $15,000 in order to gain title to it. I know the Chair is also interested in the situation since the situation exists in his own district and he, himself, has spent a considerable amount of time trying to address the problem as well.

It seems to me if you have a tra:i:ler and you put it on a trailer park and you pay rent on it and it is has been there for twenty years, then there is an obligation, it seems to me, on the part of the landlord to do more than give the thirty or ninety days notice required under the legislation that now applies. The legislation that now applies is the Landlord Tenants Act, which seems to be the only thing. Yet the Landlord Tenant Act clearly was not intended to protect people who are living in trailers and I do not think that that should be the legislation that should be enacted.

One of the most promising things is that having raised the situation and having tried to make representations, as well as the member · for St. John's East Extern (Mr. Hickey) , I have now received a letter from the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr. Russell) indicating that he, himself, feels that there is an inadequacy in the his own Landlord Tenant Act and that it does not address the problem we are talking about here.

He has indicated in the letter that he has sent me that he is now surveying the other L2844 June 6, 1986 Vol XL provinces in Canada to find out if they have legislation that will cover people living in trailers who are on leased land or on rented land or whatever the arrangement is, to see if there is some better protection we can put in place. While I say there is a lot of analogies with this particular piece of legislation, there is also a lot of differences. We are talking about much higher rents .

For example, there is the provision of water and sewerage services that are sometimes provided by the landlord, so there is a difference there. Somehow, between this piece of legislation, the Act Respecting Certain Leaseholds Interests Within The City Of St. John's - that legislation we are amending - and the Landlord Tenant Act, there should be something in between that will protect these individuals from the arbitrary action that they are facing right now. Having looked at it, I am not sure what the action should be.

Should it be this approach whereby they can produce a certain amount of money and then lay claim to the land that they are on? That may be one of the solutions that should be looked at. I personally think it is one option and one think that we should probably look at. Another part of it would be to say that a trailer, even though it is mobile and can be moved, is still pretty much a difficult thing to move in the sense that usually there are porches built onto it.

There is a lot of expense in terms of moving them ·and blocking them up and attaching them to their services and so on, so it is not the equivalent of moving out of one apartment and No. 48 R2844

moving into another. It generally requires several thousands of dollars, at a minimum, in order to move the particular trailer itself. That being the case, there may be, I think, an obligation on the landlord to provide some support. By virtue of the fact that the landlord is using the land, as in this case, for another purpose from which he expects to gain a profit, he either then has a responsibility to help the individuals either financially or in terms of a very extended period of notice, perhaps even stretching into a period of years. That may be the king of thing that would be required.

But it is, I think, our modern equivalent of the problem that existed in the 19th. Century and up until 1921. By the way, I would like to mention to· the minister, he was indicating that the ancient leases are the ones prior to 1923. Just for the record, I think looking at the act itself, the ancient leases are ones pt:ior to August 2, 1921. I know that it was not a major point but I think it is important that at least we get the record correct.

What I would like to do is have the minister respond to that question of the Glenvilla Trailer Court and indeed the whole question of what rights trailer owners should have on leased land. That would be the major bulk of the comments I would like to make. The other thing I would like to ask is I am not sure why the President of the Council is introducing this particular piece of .legislation since it would seem that perhaps the Minister of Consumer Affairs and L2845 June 6, 1986 Vol XL Communications (Mr. Russell) or Housing (Mr.

Dinn) would be a more appropriate minister, except that I do know that a lot of these resi~ences are certainly in his district and he has certainly shown a commendable interest in making sure that their interests are protected. Knowing he has been willing to protect the interests of his own constituents over the years, I think he should be very receptive to looking at the problem of the people in the trailer court and seeing if we can come up with some legislation that would protect them as well. With that, I end my comments and thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: If the minister speaks now he closes the debate. The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I can respond to, first of all, the comments that the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) made and say that certainly we will be amenable to looking at any improvements that can be made. We drew a line between commercial and residential properties for the reasons that he articulated. There are, though, many small stores. Most of those small stores had a residential component so they were able to buy them.

But if there are any real problems with respect to that, we would certainly be prepared to look at it as it comes to our attention. The han. the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick), spoke on the matter of the trailer court, which was his main concern. I have a little bit of difficulty. ·- --I know the No. 48 R2845

people who Court. I generally, to it. own Glenvilla Trailer would rather speak if I may, with respect As the hen. member said, these questions are most difficult but they are not similar to this particular act or to the circumstances of this act. This act relates to residential houses that are built on land. The only relationship is that they pay ground rent and, indeed, many of these people over a period of time, you would be surprised at the number of these people, understandably, in these houses who did not even understand that they did not have title to their property until it became very difficult.

They found out to their chagrin when they went to get mortgages or what have you or, indeed, when they went to sell the property for the reasons that the member for Twillingate indicated in his example. So, there the member concedes it is not really completely the same. That is not to say that measures have not been taken to protect trailer owners. Trailer owners have come into trailer courts over the last fifteen or twenty years. They did have the opportunity and they do have the alternative to put their trailer on a land they own or land that they rent. The bon. gentleman indicated the rents are higher.

They pay water and sewerage and services and what have you. So the circumstances really are not the same and I do not think it would be appropriate to deal with them and the St. John's leasehold act. That is not to to protect them interests, as the owners say that measures and to balance the one must, between and the trailer L2846 June 6, 1986 Vol XL occupiers, have not to be taken. The Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr.

Russell), as the member has already indicated, is going to canvass other provinces to see what can be done and I can assure the hen. member that that will be a matter that the government will be very concerned with and pursuing to the degree possible. One of the areas that I feel myself, and this is not a commitment but, it is just an idea that I think most certainly should be addressed is that the notice to the trailer owners should be perhaps longer than the notices under the Residential Tenants Act in other instances because of the problems of dislocation.

Whether that length of notice was given in this case, I do not know, I have no knowledge myself. But certainly it is something that the government is looking into and we will be considering it. However, it is not a matter that should be in this act. In conclusion then, the only other thing he asked is why I introduced it. It is quite obvious that I have the highest concentration of this type of housing. I have introduced it because in the backbenches I personally drafted the original bill. The now Chief Justice of the Trial Division introduced it because he was in Cabinet and I was not.

I introduced a draft of the amendment and I assisted in the drafting of this here. So that is the reason why it is not the Minister of Consumer Affairs or the Minister of Justice or the Minister of Housing. I hope that answers everything. In conclusion I just commit this bill, as they do when they bury No. 48 R2846

. things, but the other way around, in reverse, I commit this bi 11 to enactment by the House and I give notice once again to those people, as I say, who have spent large amounts of money, stayed up over nights to find loopholes, that I feel that this plugs all the loopholes now. They can rest assured if it is not, any other loopholes will be plugged no matter how many amendments we have to introduce. I think that the best course of action now with those few reluctant land-owners is to realize the reality of the situation and to give the deeds to the people who are entitled. I move second reading.

On motion, a bill, "An Amend Leaseholds In St. Act", read a referred to Whole House No. 48). MR. MARSHALL: second time, a Committee on ·tomorrow. Motion 8, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Act To John's ordered of the (Bill . The han. the Premier to move the following resolution: "BE IT RESOLVED that this House hereby recommends to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council the appointment of Ambrose Hubert Peddle to be the Parliamentary Commissioner pursuant to the Parliamentary Commissioner (Ombudsman) Act." MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Premier I would like to introduce this motion.

I would hope that it will receive, as I would expect, the unanimous endorsement of the House. I do not know if there is a necessity to have a large amount of debate with respec-t to it L2847 June 6, 1986 Vol XL beyond explaining why it comes. It comes because the appointment of a ombudsman is for a ten year term. Mr. Peddle's ten years have expired and the government ___ wishes to recommend to the House that he be given a second term of ten years under the Act. I cannot introduce it without just saying a few words with respect to Mr. Peddle.

I do not think there is any other Newfoundlander around who is more eminently suited and fitted for this particular position. Mr. Peddle had been a businessman for a large number of years, he had been a member of the House of Assembly, he had been a member of the House of Commons so he is well, well versed and knowledgeable about provincial and federal matters. Of course, it is provincial matter